A canoptek wraith that purchases whip coils strikes at I5 in combat. However, they lack assault grenades. My question is thus: due to the Wraithflight special rule ("When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. [...]), is their initiative effected by the terrain? This is not a question of what modifier has priority (the set value), but rather if the wraiths suffer the modifier at all. Charging through difficult terrain states: "[...] if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."
So we know that MTC won't help the wraiths. However, wraiths move over all terrain as if it was open ground - does this mean we treat the wraiths as having moved through open ground?
When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.
Charging through Difficult Terrain:
If at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Charge Move:
The charging unit now moves into close combat with the unit(s) it has declared a charge against – this is called a charge move.
This tells us that: 1. Wraiths move over terrain as if it were open ground and this is not exclusive to the Movement Phase (no such restriction exists). 2. You have to move through difficult terrain to get the penalty. 3. Charge Move is a move.
So as I see it: You move, you treat the DT as open ground and you don't get a penalty. This could have been ambiguous if Charge Move didn't use the word 'move' but instead used 'charge'.
One tip: C'tans and their "Immune to Natural Law" have the same wording. Except for an additional line where they pass DT-tests (which is weird, since you wouldn't have to take them if you treat it as Open Ground).
... if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as a part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1.
Since Wraithflight allows the Canoptek Wraiths to treat all difficult terrain as open ground you'll never invoke the rule above since none of the models moved through difficult terrain, its all open ground.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The wraith rule says "When moving" not "when calculating intuitive value in the Fight sub-phase."
Are you "moving" through terrain when the Fight sub phase begins?
In order to trigger I1 from difficult terrain, you have to have moved through it. It is when the movement occurs that you trigger the rule, the effects just happen to apply in the next phase.
---
Another tidbit:
Open ground Open ground covers everything from dusty plains to rolling hills. Models in open ground are often said to be ‘out in the open’. No additional rules are needed for open ground and, unless otherwise specified, special rules and abilities that affect terrain do not affect open ground. The surface of the Realm of Battle Gameboard is considered open ground.
This supports the idea that you do not invoke rules when moving over terrain "as if it was open ground", no?
You are only at I1 if you charged through difficult or dangerous terrain, the Wraithflight rule makes that open terrain so that rule would not be in effect, so not exactly done.
Lungpickle wrote: You are initiative 1 if you charge a unit in terrain, unless they are already locked in combat.
DONE
Way to ignore every statement so far in the thread. At least argue for your cause if that's your view. As of now, we have provided proof that wraiths move as if on open ground all the time, and you cannot invoke any penalties while moving on open ground. Do you have anything that counters this?
While the Wrathflight rule allows you to treat all terrain as open terrain, it doesn't tell you to ignore the terrain that it moved through. So while they are not affected by it, the terrain doesn't cease to exist. Follow that by the rule for charging In which it states that even if the unit is not slowed by the terrain, they still have a reduced initiative.
While the Wrathflight rule allows you to treat all terrain as open terrain, it doesn't tell you to ignore the terrain that it moved through. So while they are not affected by it, the terrain doesn't cease to exist. Follow that by the rule for charging In which it states that even if the unit is not slowed by the terrain, they still have a reduced initiative.
Cheers
Andrew
If you're forcing the Wraiths to assault at Initiative 1, then you're not treating the difficult terrain as open ground. You'd be treating it as difficult terrain.
Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.
That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.
Anpu-adom wrote: Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.
That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.
It wouldnt have to state that if it is treating as "open ground" because there would not be a penalty in the first place.
So , if you are treating as "open ground" in say not taking the -2" penalty, you have to also not take the Initiative penalty.
however being Init 2 anyway how often will it really make a difference anyway?!?
While the Wrathflight rule allows you to treat all terrain as open terrain, it doesn't tell you to ignore the terrain that it moved through. So while they are not affected by it, the terrain doesn't cease to exist. Follow that by the rule for charging In which it states that even if the unit is not slowed by the terrain, they still have a reduced initiative.
Cheers
Andrew
If you're forcing the Wraiths to assault at Initiative 1, then you're not treating the difficult terrain as open ground. You'd be treating it as difficult terrain.
But you're not. For the purposes of moving the terrain is treated as open terrain, but it doesn't actually tell you to ignore the terrain. For example, if you use Wrathflight to move through a wall, would you be insisting that the wall no longer blocks Los as open terrain doesn't block Los? The terrain exists even though you may not be affected by it. The charging rule don't even ask for you to be slowed or affected by difficult terrain, simply that you have moved through it.
Every instance where a piece of wargear allows a unit to ignore the penalty to initiative in a GW piece of rule, it has been explicitly stated so. Look at the Flip Belt from the Harlequin release as an example.
We've been down this road before, and GWFAQ'ed that Wraiths don't ignore the initiative penalty. Expecting the result to be different this time is not realistic.
While the Wrathflight rule allows you to treat all terrain as open terrain, it doesn't tell you to ignore the terrain that it moved through. So while they are not affected by it, the terrain doesn't cease to exist. Follow that by the rule for charging In which it states that even if the unit is not slowed by the terrain, they still have a reduced initiative.
Cheers
Andrew
If you're forcing the Wraiths to assault at Initiative 1, then you're not treating the difficult terrain as open ground. You'd be treating it as difficult terrain.
Yes, at the beginning of the Fight sub-phase we will treat it as difficult terrain. Since the wraiths are no longer moving, and they only count it as open ground "when moving," that's fine.
Anpu-adom wrote: Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.
That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.
It wouldnt have to state that if it is treating as "open ground" because there would not be a penalty in the first place.
So , if you are treating as "open ground" in say not taking the -2" penalty, you have to also not take the Initiative penalty.
however being Init 2 anyway how often will it really make a difference anyway?!?
The Wraiths whipcoils boost them to I5 now, so it does make a difference.
So by that logic, if they don't go though the difficult terrain, then they don't in contact of the unit, so they can't assault...
Because if they indeed assault, then they must come into contact of the models that are IN the terrain, thus going through the terrain, thus be affected.
the fact that they arn't slowed by the terrain, or that they can go over it doesn't mean that the terrain cease to exist, or that they are not in it.
They don't get the -2" range in a terrain, they don't have grenades or a rule like the flipbelt that says they still use their normal Init.
Its the same freakin argument as with the Grav guns ffs, everyone and their dogs where like "you don't get any saves vs this with your vehicle" and Oh look!!, the rule as been updated in that way in the rulebook...
Discussed about this with all the necrons players(5-6) that we have in our Club, none of them believe even by a stretch that the rule is intended like this and thus it shouldn't be used like this.
Now in your meta, you do whatever you like after all, but don't get used to it too much, never knows when 8th Ed will be released with updated rules for this...
Anpu-adom wrote: Every instance where a piece of wargear allows a unit to ignore the penalty to initiative in a GW piece of rule, it has been explicitly stated so. Look at the Flip Belt from the Harlequin release as an example.
1. False, C'tans and Wraiths ignore the penalty and they don't explicitly state it.
2. Flip Belt doesn't slow you, Wraithflight tells us to treat it as open ground. Do not use totally different abilities to make a point.
Slayer le boucher wrote: So by that logic, if they don't go though the difficult terrain, then they don't in contact of the unit, so they can't assault...
Because if they indeed assault, then they must come into contact of the models that are IN the terrain, thus going through the terrain, thus be affected.
the fact that they arn't slowed by the terrain, or that they can go over it doesn't mean that the terrain cease to exist, or that they are not in it.
They don't get the -2" range in a terrain, they don't have grenades or a rule like the flipbelt that says they still use their normal Init.
Its the same freakin argument as with the Grav guns ffs, everyone and their dogs where like "you don't get any saves vs this with your vehicle" and Oh look!!, the rule as been updated in that way in the rulebook...
Discussed about this with all the necrons players(5-6) that we have in our Club, none of them believe even by a stretch that the rule is intended like this and thus it shouldn't be used like this.
Now in your meta, you do whatever you like after all, but don't get used to it too much, never knows when 8th Ed will be released with updated rules for this...
Ooh, the hilarious arguments!
3. They DO go through a place and get in contact, they just treat it as open ground. Does open ground have a penalty on Initiative?
4. No, they do have a rule which states they treat it as open ground. Again: Does open ground have a penalty on Initiative?
5. How is it the same as Grav guns? Did Grav guns treat Terrain as Open Ground, because I am unfamiliar with such a rule.
6. Well, then it clearly shows your 5-6 Necron players don't know anything about the rules. Perhaps you want to come up with a RAW-response for once?
7. So I shouldn't get used to something that sounds logical, is balanced and works both RAW and RAI because you looked in your crystal ball and told me that 8th edition will change the rule in two to three years?
Seriously people..
At least do an effort to come up with any rules-arguments.
I would say... due to the wording of the rule, if you charge through difficult terrain and do not end on it, you would not receive the penalty.
If any model after the charge has been resolved is still in DT, they take the penalty. After all they are still fighting in it, even if they are not simply moving.
Thing is, the charging-into-terrain rule is supposed to represent the defenders being able to find objects to defend themselves behind. It's not actually about the models charging being slowed down at all. That's why grenades work how they do - dodging the grenade blast means the defenders can't set themselves against the charge properly.
Quickjager wrote: I would say... due to the wording of the rule, if you charge through difficult terrain and do not end on it, you would not receive the penalty.
If any model after the charge has been resolved is still in DT, they take the penalty. After all they are still fighting in it, even if they are not simply moving.
Difficult Terrain wrote:If at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Unfortuntly, that doesn't trigger it either. The rule only triggers when "moving through difficult terrain". The through is key, since through also means "to move over" in 40k. So even if they end their movement in DT, they did not move through it, and thus did not trigger the rule.
But you have to take into account that the terrain still exists and that, while they are unaffected by it, the unit still moved through difficult terrain. If you maintain that all terrain is open terrain and that no other consideration exists, then the unit is therefor unable to assault any unit on battlements or the upper floors of ruins. Open terrain gives no consideration to moving up levels. Those rules are contained in the relevant terrain sections, which some are maintaining that do not apply to wraiths when moving or assaulting.
The unit moved through the terrain, but they treat all of it as open ground.
But I will repeat what I 'said' in the Triarch Praetorian-thread:
We claim it works like that and use argument 'X'.
You counter that by saying if 'X' were true, we would also have a side-effect that might be weird.
Even if we ignore whether that side-effect is true or not, that doesn't disprove our original argument!
The only place where I see those type of arguments are in YMDC and 'Global Warming'-discussions
Furyou Miko wrote: Thing is, the charging-into-terrain rule is supposed to represent the defenders being able to find objects to defend themselves behind. It's not actually about the models charging being slowed down at all. That's why grenades work how they do - dodging the grenade blast means the defenders can't set themselves against the charge properly.
By that fluff based logic, how are you setting yourself against a charge by things that pass through walls?
Kangodo wrote: The unit moved through the terrain, but they treat all of it as open ground.
But I will repeat what I 'said' in the Triarch Praetorian-thread:
We claim it works like that and use argument 'X'.
You counter that by saying if 'X' were true, we would also have a side-effect that might be weird.
Even if we ignore whether that side-effect is true or not, that doesn't disprove our original argument!
The only place where I see those type of arguments are in YMDC and 'Global Warming'-discussions
Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?
The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.
RAI argument, but why would they change the wording if the change would have no effect whatsoever? The old wording already prevented them from being slowed by difficult terrain and ignore dangerous terrain tests. But instead they changed it to treat it as open ground. Clearly the intent must have been to ignore all penalties of terrain. Can't think of any other case except the initiative penalty where it matters....
Yes the rules are sloppy as usual but I think the intention was that they should ignore the ini penalty as well....
AndrewC wrote: Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?
The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.
Cheers
Andrew
I do not know and I do not care: This thread is about their Initiative which RAW isn't penalized when they attack someone in DT.
You will never gain such a thread because nobody is actually going to create it.
But you are doing it again!
You are making up some hypothetical unforeseen consequence of following the rules to try and "prove" that it is wrong.
Having a weird side-effect does not mean that it's not RAW, it means that GW isn't perfect in their rules-writing.
Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?
The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.
Cheers
Andrew
Why would they not be able to move to the upper levels ?
Where are the rules for doing so? Under the relevant terrain sections for ruins and fortifications. But if the wraiths are to treat all terrain as open terrain, and as TompiQ quote earlier, no special rule apply to open terrain. So the rules that apply to those buildings do not apply to wraiths.
Personally I think a few people are trying to have their cake and eat it in this discussion.
AndrewC wrote: Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?
The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.
Cheers
Andrew
I do not know and I do not care: This thread is about their Initiative which RAW isn't penalized when they attack someone in DT.
You will never gain such a thread because nobody is actually going to create it.
But you are doing it again!
You are making up some hypothetical unforeseen consequence of following the rules to try and "prove" that it is wrong.
Having a weird side-effect does not mean that it's not RAW, it means that GW isn't perfect in their rules-writing.
You would be amazed at how many threads devolve in that way into unforeseen consequences. And in many cases trying to argue a point in isolation is the worst possible way to resolve a question. And agreed that a weird side effect does not mean that something is not raw. However at least have the good grace to accept that RAW then throws up even more unusual situations in this case.
AndrewC wrote: Where are the rules for doing so? Under the relevant terrain sections for ruins and fortifications. But if the wraiths are to treat all terrain as open terrain, and as TompiQ quote earlier, no special rule apply to open terrain. So the rules that apply to those buildings do not apply to wraiths.
Personally I think a few people are trying to have their cake and eat it in this discussion.
Cheers
Andrew
You're missing one thing: there are no rules for moving up and down different levels of terrain anymore. The only relevant rules for battlements state that they are difficult terrain that some units don't have to take dangerous terrain tests for. Please provide page numbers and point us to the rules you speak about, because as far as I can tell, no such rules exist.
Edit - Which of course means that if wraiths cannot move up and down levels, nothing can.
AndrewC wrote: Let's be clear here, you are maintaining that all terrain is discounted when wraiths move or assault? Even when that then results in them being unable to assault units on higher levels, or even being able to move to those higher levels in the movement phase?
The reason that I want to know is for the next round in YMDC when someone asks if wraiths can move to the upper levels of ruins or battlements.
Cheers
Andrew
I do not know and I do not care: This thread is about their Initiative which RAW isn't penalized when they attack someone in DT.
You will never gain such a thread because nobody is actually going to create it.
But you are doing it again!
You are making up some hypothetical unforeseen consequence of following the rules to try and "prove" that it is wrong.
Having a weird side-effect does not mean that it's not RAW, it means that GW isn't perfect in their rules-writing.
I like how you haven't pointed out the hole in his argument that the rules for moving up and down in terrain is in the movement section and doesn't mention anything about not applying to open terrain.
Furyou Miko wrote: Thing is, the charging-into-terrain rule is supposed to represent the defenders being able to find objects to defend themselves behind. It's not actually about the models charging being slowed down at all. That's why grenades work how they do - dodging the grenade blast means the defenders can't set themselves against the charge properly.
By that fluff based logic, how are you setting yourself against a charge by things that pass through walls?
Yeah sorry but it would explicitly say they don't take that initiative hit....
also
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."
Vaguely covers it... they treat it as open ground so are not slowed by it.... GW will eventually FAQ it like last time...its amazing how many people will bend the rules to their favour but I am 100000% sure would kick and scream if their opponent did the same.
Anpu-adom wrote: Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.
That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.
It wouldnt have to state that if it is treating as "open ground" because there would not be a penalty in the first place.
So , if you are treating as "open ground" in say not taking the -2" penalty, you have to also not take the Initiative penalty.
however being Init 2 anyway how often will it really make a difference anyway?!?
no those are two separate things, and being I5 now, it most certainly makes a difference.
the -2 to assault distance is separate from the initiative penalty, beasts for example ignore the -2 but still fight at I1.
wraiths do as well, while *MOVING* they treat difficult as open,
But while CHARGING they have no such special rule to ignore the I penalty, the I penalty has nothing to do with movement, and the rule specifically states that even models not slowed by difficult must still strike at I 1.
wraiths certainly are not slowed by difficult, but they still strike at I1 because the rule plainly says "even models that are not slowed by difficult" strike at I1, and just because you treated the difficult terrain as open for *MOVEMENT* purposes, does not mean you get to do so for other purposes.
To argue otherwise is to argue that wraiths ignore terrain in its entirety, as opposed to *just* for movement. so no cover for wraths, they can see through LOS blocking terrain, and so on with all sorts of sillyness.
as it is RAW is they just treat it as open ground for *MOVING* not shooting, not assault initiative, not other things, just *MOVING*
sm3g wrote: Yeah sorry but it would explicitly say they don't take that initiative hit....
also
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."
Vaguely covers it... they treat it as open ground so are not slowed by it.... GW will eventually FAQ it like last time...its amazing how many people will bend the rules to their favour but I am 100000% sure would kick and scream if their opponent did the same.
1. "Not slowed by" and "Treat as open ground" are two different things. You can't really say that they do roughly the same and then make rulings based on that.
2. It doesn't have to explicitly say that, indirectly allowing them to ignore it is more than enough. That is how rules work.
3. You are right. It's amazing how people are trying to bend the rules in order to deny the Wraiths their I5 attacks they clearly have in DT, just because it would give them an advantage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @easysauce
You keep typing *MOVING* in such a weird way.
You are surely not claiming that a Charge Move is not moving?
sm3g wrote: Yeah sorry but it would explicitly say they don't take that initiative hit....
also
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."
Vaguely covers it... they treat it as open ground so are not slowed by it.... GW will eventually FAQ it like last time...its amazing how many people will bend the rules to their favour but I am 100000% sure would kick and scream if their opponent did the same.
But it does explicitly say that they move over it as if it was open ground, and you do not trigger any penalties when moving over open ground.
Anpu-adom wrote: Since the rule doesn't say that you don't take the initiative penalty, then you still have to go to initiative 1. You may not be in difficult terrain, but the unit you are assaulting certainly is. You ignore the decrease in your charge distance, but you still go at initiative 1.
That being said... I'm running at least 2 units of wraiths in every necron list I'm building.
It wouldnt have to state that if it is treating as "open ground" because there would not be a penalty in the first place.
So , if you are treating as "open ground" in say not taking the -2" penalty, you have to also not take the Initiative penalty.
however being Init 2 anyway how often will it really make a difference anyway?!?
no those are two separate things, and being I5 now, it most certainly makes a difference.
the -2 to assault distance is separate from the initiative penalty, beasts for example ignore the -2 but still fight at I1.
wraiths do as well, while *MOVING* they treat difficult as open,
But while CHARGING they have no such special rule to ignore the I penalty, the I penalty has nothing to do with movement, and the rule specifically states that even models not slowed by difficult must still strike at I 1.
wraiths certainly are not slowed by difficult, but they still strike at I1 because the rule plainly says "even models that are not slowed by difficult" strike at I1, and just because you treated the difficult terrain as open for *MOVEMENT* purposes, does not mean you get to do so for other purposes.
To argue otherwise is to argue that wraiths ignore terrain in its entirety, as opposed to *just* for movement. so no cover for wraths, they can see through LOS blocking terrain, and so on with all sorts of sillyness.
as it is RAW is they just treat it as open ground for *MOVING* not shooting, not assault initiative, not other things, just *MOVING*
I'm sorry, but charging is a form of moving. This is a direct quote from the rulebook:
CHARGE MOVE The charging unit now moves into close combat with the unit(s) it has declared a charge against – this is called a charge move.
Moving Charging Models Charging units must attempt to move into base contact with as many opposing models in the enemy unit as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back or trying to avoid terrain! All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move – up to the 2D6 distance you rolled earlier – following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they can be moved within 1" of enemy models. Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, and cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging (a unit can charge more than one enemy unit by declaring a multiple charge – this is described in the Multiple Combats section).
Underscores are mine for emphasis. Take extra note of the sentence "following the same rules as in the Movement phase". Even without that, Wraithflight says "When moving [...]", not "In the movement phase[...]", and as you can see above charging is a form of moving. It is undeniable. Further more, this is how you trigger the I penalty:
if at least one model in the charging unit [i]moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1[/i]
The trigger is moving through difficult terrain. Wraiths instead count as moving through open ground. If you only move through open ground when charging, do you suffer a penalty to your initiative?
Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
sm3g wrote: Yeah sorry but it would explicitly say they don't take that initiative hit....
also
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."
Vaguely covers it... they treat it as open ground so are not slowed by it.... GW will eventually FAQ it like last time...its amazing how many people will bend the rules to their favour but I am 100000% sure would kick and scream if their opponent did the same.
In the old codex the wraith flight rule said "not slowed by". That made them get the ini 1 penalty. Now they changed it to treat it as open ground. Why change the wording if it wasn't supposed to do anything? If they still should get the ini1 penalty they could just leave it as it was...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anpu-adom wrote: Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
Same here, the difference is significant enough to expect that GW intended the rule to change, not stay the same...
Anpu-adom wrote: Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
We have explicit permission to count wraiths as moving through open ground at all times, even when charging. When you charge through open ground, do you incur any penalties to your initiative?
Anpu-adom wrote: Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
The difference in the two wordings is quite significant as one tells you that their movement is unaffected by the terrain (which does nothing to change the nature of that terrain) while the other changes the nature of the terrain (by quite expressly removing that terrain for the purposes of movement)
Anpu-adom wrote: Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
The difference in the two wordings is quite significant as one tells you that their movement is unaffected by the terrain (which does nothing to change the nature of that terrain) while the other changes the nature of the terrain (by quite expressly removing that terrain for the purposes of movement)
In which case would they get a cover save for being inside a forest (not 25% obscured) since you know, its open ground?
EDIT: Disregard, it'd never be better than their 3++
Anpu-adom wrote: Your argumnts are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
Same here, the difference is significant enough to expect that GW intended the rule to change, not stay the same...
Granted, the wording is different. You still haven't shown and change of intent on GW's part. You cannot escape that fact that every other piece of wargear that allows models to ignore the initiative penalty EXPLICITLY STATES that it allows the units to ignore the initiative penalty.
Anpu-adom wrote: Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
We have explicit permission to count wraiths as moving through open ground at all times, even when charging. When you charge through open ground, do you incur any penalties to your initiative?
You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty. Words that would do that are found in the rules of assault grenades and the Flip Belt from the Harlequin codex. We don't have those, so it isn't explicit.
Anpu-adom wrote: You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty.
And you've yet to explain how you trigger the terrain penalty if you don't count the terrain as difficult terrain, something which the Wraithflight rule says you do not do.
Anpu-adom wrote: Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
The difference in the two wordings is quite significant as one tells you that their movement is unaffected by the terrain (which does nothing to change the nature of that terrain) while the other changes the nature of the terrain (by quite expressly removing that terrain for the purposes of movement)
In which case would they get a cover save for being inside a forest (not 25% obscured) since you know, its open ground?
EDIT: Disregard, it'd never be better than their 3++
You discount the terrain for movement purposes, not cover purposes. The reason this stops the I penalty from triggering is because it itself is triggered by moving in the terrain.
Anpu-adom wrote: Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
We have explicit permission to count wraiths as moving through open ground at all times, even when charging. When you charge through open ground, do you incur any penalties to your initiative?
You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty. Words that would do that are found in the rules of assault grenades and the Flip Belt from the Harlequin codex. We don't have those, so it isn't explicit.
No, you may not count the ground as open. You may count other models and terrain as Open Ground, which is a type of terrain and as such replaces any function the original terrain would have that in any way relates to movement or movement triggered penalties. You cannot treat something as both difficult terrain and open ground for the same purpose.
Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Because Harlequins are not slowed by DT. Per the rules, if you charge through DT (even if not slowed), you strike at Init 1. Harlequins, get around this by virtue of a wargear that specifically counters that rule.
Wraiths on the other hand, treat DT as Open Ground when moving. When they go to strike blows you check - did they charge through DT? No, they charged through Open Ground (otherwise you are not counting DT as Open Ground when thy moved).
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.
Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
The flip belt has an entirely different effect compared to wraithflight. Harlequins still treat difficult terrain as difficult terrain and not open ground when moving through it, which means that in accordance with the Charging through Difficult Terrain paragraph of the rulebook they would invoke the I penalty when moving through it. That is why it has to be written out.
Not being slowed by difficult terrain does not help you with the I penalty. Not counting as having moved through difficult terrain at all, however, does.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.
Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.
I don't know, the rules still fill different purposes. Flip belts are not intended to allow you to walk through terrain, nor does it help with dangerous, so a similar wording would not be sufficient to cater to these differences. They are worded differently because the rules are inherently different, not because different writers wrote them.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Except they would as flip belts cause models to not be slowed by difficult terrain while Wraithflight makes wraiths treat it as open ground, two different things.
Models that aren't slowed still suffer the Initiative penalty unless stated otherwise, models that treat it as open ground can't suffer the penalty as open ground doesn't have such a penalty.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
The flip belt has an entirely different effect compared to wraithflight. Harlequins still treat difficult terrain as difficult terrain and not open ground when moving through it, which means that in accordance with the Charging through Difficult Terrain paragraph of the rulebook they would invoke the I penalty when moving through it. That is why it has to be written out.
Not being slowed by difficult terrain does not help you with the I penalty. Not counting as having moved through difficult terrain at all, however, does.
They are not slowed and do not suffer a penalty when charging...so whats the point in having them treat it as difficult terrain - if the wraith argument is valid I do not see how these rules would differ one little bit in the game..they would both move through it normally, they would both attack at full initiative and they would both not take a penalty to charge distance....
Anpu-adom wrote: Your arguments are tired... all of the same arguements were tried when the 5th book came out. The difference between the wording then and the wording now is not significant enough to think that it GW's FAQ will be over ruled.
In a permissive ruleset, you need express permission to counteract another rule. The only things that have expressly ignored the drop in initiative have stated that it expressly ignores the drop in initiative.
The difference in the two wordings is quite significant as one tells you that their movement is unaffected by the terrain (which does nothing to change the nature of that terrain) while the other changes the nature of the terrain (by quite expressly removing that terrain for the purposes of movement)
In which case would they get a cover save for being inside a forest (not 25% obscured) since you know, its open ground?
EDIT: Disregard, it'd never be better than their 3++
It is important to note that they only treat terrain as open ground with regards to Movement. But it is still terrain and still does provide cover when it comes to shooting or another unit assaulting the wraiths in terrain.
The brb says all models that are not slowed by terrain still need to take the ini penalty. This refers to many rules using the exact wording "not slowed by". Some of these specifically states they do not suffer the ini penalty, because they have to.
But the wraithflight wording do not longer say it's not slowed by it, it says it is treated as open ground when moving, which means you shouldn't apply the rules for difficult terrain when they move.
The claim that it must specifically state ini is affected refers to rules using the wording "slowed by" only.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
The flip belt has an entirely different effect compared to wraithflight. Harlequins still treat difficult terrain as difficult terrain and not open ground when moving through it, which means that in accordance with the Charging through Difficult Terrain paragraph of the rulebook they would invoke the I penalty when moving through it. That is why it has to be written out.
Not being slowed by difficult terrain does not help you with the I penalty. Not counting as having moved through difficult terrain at all, however, does.
They are not slowed and do not suffer a penalty when charging...so whats the point in having them treat it as difficult terrain - if the wraith argument is valid I do not see how these rules would differ one little bit in the game..they would both move through it normally, they would both attack at full initiative and they would both not take a penalty to charge distance....
They may be the same rules with different wording. This happens a lot.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.
Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.
I don't know, the rules still fill different purposes. Flip belts are not intended to allow you to walk through terrain, nor does it help with dangerous, so a similar wording would not be sufficient to cater to these differences. They are worded differently because the rules are inherently different, not because different writers wrote them.
Only the C'tan version prevent Dangerous Tests, Wraiths will still take a Dangerous Test if they are subject to them.
Anpu-adom wrote: You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty.
And you've yet to explain how you trigger the terrain penalty if you don't count the terrain as difficult terrain, something which the Wraithflight rule says you do not do.
And you've yet to explain how you have explicit permission to ignore a basic rule of the game.
Anpu-adom wrote: You may count the ground as open, but you still don't have explicit permission to ignore the terrain penalty.
And you've yet to explain how you trigger the terrain penalty if you don't count the terrain as difficult terrain, something which the Wraithflight rule says you do not do.
And you've yet to explain how you have explicit permission to ignore a basic rule of the game.
The fact that the Wraithflight rule means that they never trigger the penalty. That's what special rules do, they ignore the basic rules of the game. Once again, please explain what triggers the penalty instead of ignoring the question.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.
Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.
I don't know, the rules still fill different purposes. Flip belts are not intended to allow you to walk through terrain, nor does it help with dangerous, so a similar wording would not be sufficient to cater to these differences. They are worded differently because the rules are inherently different, not because different writers wrote them.
Only the C'tan version prevent Dangerous Tests, Wraiths will still take a Dangerous Test if they are subject to them.
Actually dangerous terrain has no effect on wraiths as they are beasts so automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.
Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.
I don't know, the rules still fill different purposes. Flip belts are not intended to allow you to walk through terrain, nor does it help with dangerous, so a similar wording would not be sufficient to cater to these differences. They are worded differently because the rules are inherently different, not because different writers wrote them.
Only the C'tan version prevent Dangerous Tests, Wraiths will still take a Dangerous Test if they are subject to them.
I didn't dispute that. My point was that wraiths never take dangerous terrain tests for moving through dangerous terrain, because they don't treat it as dangerous terrain due to wraithflight. The only way for them to take such a test would be to suffer an effect similar to "if a unit [does X, which cannot relate to moving through terrain] it has to take a dangerous terrain test". Then they would immediately pass these tests, as they possess Move Through Cover. I know the point is moot due to that, but there's still a point to be made about wraithflight and not triggering dangerous terrain tests to begin with.
All the C'tan version of the rule does is make sure C'tans also pass DT tests caused by things other than moving through dangerous terrain. Because they possess the same innate immunity wraiths does, as they never move through DT for movement purposes, unless the player actually wishes them to do so.
AndrewC wrote: TompiQ, Silver' point conceded I've got myself confused with last ed where the rules were contained under the building rules.
As my main argument has been removed due to a senior moment, I will withdraw with an 'agree to disagree' on the effects of Wraithflight.
Cheers
Andrew
One of those few moments when GW's rule changes has caused less paradoxes I suppose. I do agree that we would have had a clusterf*ck of issues had the movement rules remained as in last ed.. Still would have allowed the Wraiths to keep their I though.
Actually dangerous terrain has no effect on wraiths as they are beasts so automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.
Aye, C'tan and Wraiths suffer exactly as much from dangerous terrain. As in, they never take tests for moving through terrain, and if they somehow would be forced to take a dangerous terrain test for other reasons, both would automatically pass them.
I don't have the book here, but from the quotes you all have posted.
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain." [from the Charging into Difficult terrain rules]
"Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground." [From the Wraithflight Rule]
They treat all terrain as if it were open, which means they are not slowed by difficult terrain.
I cannot ignore the fact that my model passed through a building even if it has move through cover rules when it comes to its charge. You do not ignore that you have rushed or phased into some sort of difficult terrain, just that you aren't slowed by it because you treat it as if it were open. That being said I would not confer the -2" but would say the I1 during the assault phase sticks.
You do not take any penalties from charging into open terrain, but you are only moving through the difficult as if it were open (Not being slowed by it) Which does trigger the I1 rules IMO and how I would argue it to be played
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.
Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.
I don't know, the rules still fill different purposes. Flip belts are not intended to allow you to walk through terrain, nor does it help with dangerous, so a similar wording would not be sufficient to cater to these differences. They are worded differently because the rules are inherently different, not because different writers wrote them.
Only the C'tan version prevent Dangerous Tests, Wraiths will still take a Dangerous Test if they are subject to them.
Actually dangerous terrain has no effect on wraiths as they are beasts so automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.
Thanks, I keep forgetting that Wraiths are now beasts.
sm3g wrote: Im curious as to why Games Workshop explicitly worded it to say that the flip belt does not suffer the penalty when charging if they didn't need to? (which would be the case if this wraith argument was in fact true).
Different writers and fluff. The Flip Belt reflects them being able to move over terrain with the greatest of ease, while Wraith Flight reflects the Wraith ignoring the terrain entirely.
Really it would be better if they had editors to make sure the rules were consistent across different books so when a writer makes an assumptions on how they think the rules works, they can be checked.
I don't know, the rules still fill different purposes. Flip belts are not intended to allow you to walk through terrain, nor does it help with dangerous, so a similar wording would not be sufficient to cater to these differences. They are worded differently because the rules are inherently different, not because different writers wrote them.
Only the C'tan version prevent Dangerous Tests, Wraiths will still take a Dangerous Test if they are subject to them.
Actually dangerous terrain has no effect on wraiths as they are beasts so automatically pass dangerous terrain tests.
Thanks, I keep forgetting that Wraiths are now beasts.
np... I am still trying to digest all this new stuff (almost wish for the good old days of Rogue Trader)
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I don't have the book here, but from the quotes you all have posted.
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain." [from the Charging into Difficult terrain rules]
"Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground." [From the Wraithflight Rule]
They treat all terrain as if it were open, which means they are not slowed by difficult terrain.
I cannot ignore the fact that my model passed through a building even if it has move through cover rules when it comes to its charge. You do not ignore that you have rushed or phased into some sort of difficult terrain, just that you aren't slowed by it because you treat it as if it were open. That being said I would not confer the -2" but would say the I1 during the assault phase sticks.
You do not take any penalties from charging into open terrain, but you are only moving through the difficult as if it were open (Not being slowed by it) Which does trigger the I1 rules IMO and how I would argue it to be played
The problem with that argument is that they can only trigger Open Ground rules while moving. Open Ground is an actual terrain type with its own rules (none) and Wraithflight is telling you to treat all terrain and models as Open Ground while they are moving. If you are applying the initiative penalty, you are not treating the terrain and models as Open Ground for their move.
Also a word of warning, I would recommend not talking about rules unless you actually have the book. You can get misinformation for the web that can lead you astray.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I don't have the book here, but from the quotes you all have posted.
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain." [from the Charging into Difficult terrain rules]
"Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground." [From the Wraithflight Rule]
They treat all terrain as if it were open, which means they are not slowed by difficult terrain.
I cannot ignore the fact that my model passed through a building even if it has move through cover rules when it comes to its charge. You do not ignore that you have rushed or phased into some sort of difficult terrain, just that you aren't slowed by it because you treat it as if it were open. That being said I would not confer the -2" but would say the I1 during the assault phase sticks.
You do not take any penalties from charging into open terrain, but you are only moving through the difficult as if it were open (Not being slowed by it) Which does trigger the I1 rules IMO and how I would argue it to be played
Wraithflight:
"When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground."
If you decide to move over something as if it was open ground, it is open ground for all intents and purposes of that movement. The I penalty triggers because you move through difficult terrain during your charge.
Hence wraiths cannot trigger the I penalty.
EDIT - And as Nilok points out above, open ground is a specific type of terrain that in no way interacts with any rules that relates to difficult or dangerous terrain.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I don't have the book here, but from the quotes you all have posted.
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain." [from the Charging into Difficult terrain rules]
"Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground." [From the Wraithflight Rule]
They treat all terrain as if it were open, which means they are not slowed by difficult terrain.
I cannot ignore the fact that my model passed through a building even if it has move through cover rules when it comes to its charge. You do not ignore that you have rushed or phased into some sort of difficult terrain, just that you aren't slowed by it because you treat it as if it were open. That being said I would not confer the -2" but would say the I1 during the assault phase sticks.
You do not take any penalties from charging into open terrain, but you are only moving through the difficult as if it were open (Not being slowed by it) Which does trigger the I1 rules IMO and how I would argue it to be played
Wraithflight:
"When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground."
If you decide to move over something as if it was open ground, it is open ground for all intents and purposes of that movement. The I penalty triggers because you move through difficult terrain during your charge.
Hence wraiths cannot trigger the I penalty.
EDIT - And as Nilok points out above, open ground is a specific type of terrain that in no way interacts with any rules that relates to difficult or dangerous terrain.
You are physically moving your model through Difficult terrain, and treating it as if it were open. Meaning you are in Difficult, and not slowed by it because you treat it as open. What you are saying is ignoring all terrain entirely. If we had an apocalyptic world with geysers that shot magma in the air and could kill models. If you placed a Wraith on it, it would still be hit by magma geyser even though that spot the wraith is standing on it open terrain.
You don't get to ignore that a terrain is there, you just treat it as if it were open during your movements.
I moved through difficult terrain (but I treat it as open ground) and then proceed to charge through difficult terrain (another movement as if it were open ground)
However I still moved through difficult terrain and charged into it unhindered. Which would trigger the Initiative 1 attacks because the rule says "Even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain"
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I don't have the book here, but from the quotes you all have posted.
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain." [from the Charging into Difficult terrain rules]
"Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground." [From the Wraithflight Rule]
They treat all terrain as if it were open, which means they are not slowed by difficult terrain.
I cannot ignore the fact that my model passed through a building even if it has move through cover rules when it comes to its charge. You do not ignore that you have rushed or phased into some sort of difficult terrain, just that you aren't slowed by it because you treat it as if it were open. That being said I would not confer the -2" but would say the I1 during the assault phase sticks.
You do not take any penalties from charging into open terrain, but you are only moving through the difficult as if it were open (Not being slowed by it) Which does trigger the I1 rules IMO and how I would argue it to be played
Wraithflight:
"When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground."
If you decide to move over something as if it was open ground, it is open ground for all intents and purposes of that movement. The I penalty triggers because you move through difficult terrain during your charge.
Hence wraiths cannot trigger the I penalty.
EDIT - And as Nilok points out above, open ground is a specific type of terrain that in no way interacts with any rules that relates to difficult or dangerous terrain.
You are physically moving your model through Difficult terrain, and treating it as if it were open. Meaning you are in Difficult, and not slowed by it because you treat it as open. What you are saying is ignoring all terrain entirely. If we had an apocalyptic world with geysers that shot magma in the air and could kill models. If you placed a Wraith on it, it would still be hit by magma geyser even though that spot the wraith is standing on it open terrain.
You don't get to ignore that a terrain is there, you just treat it as if it were open during your movements.
I moved through difficult terrain (but I treat it as open ground) and then proceed to charge through difficult terrain (another movement as if it were open ground)
However I still moved through difficult terrain and charged into it unhindered. Which would trigger the Initiative 1 attacks because the rule says "Even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain"
I would recommend reading Battlefield Terrain in the BRB as the rules have changed for 7e.
Open Ground and Difficult Terrain are Terrain Types for Citadel Scenery Models, just like how Infantry and Jetpack Infantry are Unit Types for Models. If you are told to treat a Jetpack Infantry as a normal Infantry for moving, you would not have any of the rules that trigger for moving as Jetpack Infantry. The same is true for Open Ground and Difficult Terrain.
Happyjew wrote: Kavik, when the Wraiths charged, did they move through Difficult Terrain?
Yes, they however treat it for movement purposes as if it were open.
So when they charged, did thy charge through Difficult Terrain or Open Ground? I'm specifically asking about the charge.
Their physical charge movement would be through difficult terrain (in the scenario we are discussing) And since they treat it as if it were open ground [for movement] they are not slowed by the difficult terrain which triggers the Initiative 1 rule.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I don't have the book here, but from the quotes you all have posted.
"even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain." [from the Charging into Difficult terrain rules]
"Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground." [From the Wraithflight Rule]
They treat all terrain as if it were open, which means they are not slowed by difficult terrain.
I cannot ignore the fact that my model passed through a building even if it has move through cover rules when it comes to its charge. You do not ignore that you have rushed or phased into some sort of difficult terrain, just that you aren't slowed by it because you treat it as if it were open. That being said I would not confer the -2" but would say the I1 during the assault phase sticks.
You do not take any penalties from charging into open terrain, but you are only moving through the difficult as if it were open (Not being slowed by it) Which does trigger the I1 rules IMO and how I would argue it to be played
Wraithflight:
"When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground."
If you decide to move over something as if it was open ground, it is open ground for all intents and purposes of that movement. The I penalty triggers because you move through difficult terrain during your charge.
Hence wraiths cannot trigger the I penalty.
EDIT - And as Nilok points out above, open ground is a specific type of terrain that in no way interacts with any rules that relates to difficult or dangerous terrain.
You are physically moving your model through Difficult terrain, and treating it as if it were open. Meaning you are in Difficult, and not slowed by it because you treat it as open. What you are saying is ignoring all terrain entirely. If we had an apocalyptic world with geysers that shot magma in the air and could kill models. If you placed a Wraith on it, it would still be hit by magma geyser even though that spot the wraith is standing on it open terrain.
You don't get to ignore that a terrain is there, you just treat it as if it were open during your movements.
I moved through difficult terrain (but I treat it as open ground) and then proceed to charge through difficult terrain (another movement as if it were open ground)
However I still moved through difficult terrain and charged into it unhindered. Which would trigger the Initiative 1 attacks because the rule says "Even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain"
According to fluff, the magma would just pass straight through the wraith. They are, fluff-wise, able to be entirely transparent both physically and virtually until they choose not to be.
When wraiths use wraithflight (which they will, all the time, because it is nothing but benefits) all kinds of terrain beyond Open Ground ceases to exist for purposes of their movement, with the exception of having to be able to place the model on the terrain piece if it is impassable - if it isn't, you invoke wobbly model syndrome. it doesn't matter what the terrain is classified as - for the wraith, it counts as Open Ground when moving through it. Always. And you never suffer the I penalty if you charge on Open Ground.
Happyjew wrote: Kavik, when the Wraiths charged, did they move through Difficult Terrain?
Yes, they however treat it for movement purposes as if it were open.
So when they charged, did thy charge through Difficult Terrain or Open Ground? I'm specifically asking about the charge.
Their physical charge movement would be through difficult terrain (in the scenario we are discussing) And since they treat it as if it were open ground [for movement] they are not slowed by the difficult terrain which triggers the Initiative 1 rule.
Their physical charge movement would count as if going over Open Ground, no matter what other type of terrain they actually move over.
I completely disagree and until it is either FAQd or left alone and clarified I will staunchly argue as if they should be swinging at I1. It is obvious the majority of you disagree (obviously, why would you want to nerf your own army even if its something as silly as swinging at I1) so I will just agree to disagree and wish you all happy gaming.
(we don't use fluff for rules for a reason, otherwise wraiths would just be invincible creatures till their turn to swing in CC)
Kavik, I recommend you read the Battlefield Terrain in the BRB before you start making accusations. Terrains now have Terrain Types just like how models have Unit Types as the rules have changed in 7e.
Open Ground and Difficult Terrain are Terrain Types, just as Infantry and Jump Infantry are Units Types.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I completely disagree and until it is either FAQd or left alone and clarified I will staunchly argue as if they should be swinging at I1. It is obvious the majority of you disagree (obviously, why would you want to nerf your own army even if its something as silly as swinging at I1) so I will just agree to disagree and wish you all happy gaming.
(we don't use fluff for rules for a reason, otherwise wraiths would just be invincible creatures till their turn to swing in CC)
You brought up the fluff argument, not me. You can't just cherry pick those kinds of arguments. Nilok is entirely correct in that Open Ground and Difficult Terrain/Dangerous Terrain are entirely different terrain types. Wraiths move as if all terrain was Open Ground, so you cannot trigger any penalties tied to any other type of terrain.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I cannot ignore the fact that my model passed through a building even if it has move through cover rules when it comes to its charge. You do not ignore that you have rushed or phased into some sort of difficult terrain, just that you aren't slowed by it because you treat it as if it were open. That being said I would not confer the -2" but would say the I1 during the assault phase sticks.
You have to, otherwise you're not treating the terrain as Open Terrain. You're still treating it as Difficult Terrain.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: what fluff argument??? The Magma things? That is a legit table and scenario run in game with stats and such for apocalyptic planets and games >.>
A geyser shooting magma in the air is a fluffy description. On the table, there are two actual ways you could play that:
1.) House-rule the thing. Here you can decide it will trigger in whatever manner you see fit, excluding or including any type of target. It also has no real value in a rules discussion.
2.) Treat it as dangerous terrain. However, Wraiths treat all terrain as Open Ground when moving over it, so they would not trigger it.
Using alternative one, you concoct your own rules to your own pleasure. Alternative 2, however, follows the rules as written.
The more I read people's arguments the more I am inclined to change my mind - every wording of the charging bit explicitly states "moved through difficult terrain"...which as many people have pointed out the wraiths didn't (due to open ground actually being a different terrain type)...
So while I think it is silly that the belt and wraiths have completely different wording (but in game produce the same result) I changed my mind!!
"Ignore all penalties of difficult and dangerous terrain" this would be so much simpler...
That might be one way to do it, but honestly, I think it is just a matter of people not being able to believe or conceive that any unit could have an ability like this. For once, the RAW is quite clear, but many people seem to not believe that it could actually be this simple.
sm3g wrote: The more I read people's arguments the more I am inclined to change my mind - every wording of the charging bit explicitly states "moved through difficult terrain"...which as many people have pointed out the wraiths didn't (due to open ground actually being a different terrain type)...
So while I think it is silly that the belt and wraiths have completely different wording (but in game produce the same result) I changed my mind!!
Huzzah! Sorry if I've come across as blunt in this thread, i seem to sound meaner the more tired I've become. I will also treasure this as one of those rare moments when opinions change on YMDC. Welcome to the yay-side, now go out and buy a bazillion wraiths as the rest of us!
When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.
The initiative step of the Wraith has nothing to do with its movement (in the Move phase, or the Charge sub-phase).
Has the Wraith moved through difficult terrain? If yes, then it's at I1.
You can't declare that the terrain does not exist, because it clearly does, right there on the table. Even if the Wraiths move "as if" it was open ground, it's still difficult. And if a model moved through difficult terrain (which the Wraith did), then it goes at I1.
Elric, while the Citadel Scenery Model is on the table, the Wraithflight rule says it uses the Terrain Type for Open Ground instead of Difficult Terrain. Terrain Types are to Citadel Scenery Models as Unit Types are to Models.
I recommend reading Battlefield Terrain in the BRB.
When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.
The initiative step of the Wraith has nothing to do with its movement (in the Move phase, or the Charge sub-phase).
WRONG -
If at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1
- seems to have everything to do with its movement in this case.
You can't declare that the terrain does not exist, because it clearly does, right there on the table. Even if the Wraiths move "as if" it was open ground, it's still difficult. And if a model moved through difficult terrain (which the Wraith did), then it goes at I1.
The terrain exists, its type is "Open Gorund" not "Difficult"....
When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.
The initiative step of the Wraith has nothing to do with its movement (in the Move phase, or the Charge sub-phase).
Has the Wraith moved through difficult terrain? If yes, then it's at I1.
You can't declare that the terrain does not exist, because it clearly does, right there on the table. Even if the Wraiths move "as if" it was open ground, it's still difficult. And if a model moved through difficult terrain (which the Wraith did), then it goes at I1.
No one is suggesting that the terrain does not exist, but the specific rules for wraithflight defines that all terrain is to be treated as if it was open ground. As such, if the model moves, it is always moving over open ground as directed by the special rule. As such, regardless of what the terrain is, the model did not move through difficult terrain - wraithflight overrides the original terrain rules - and the model does not suffer the initiative penalty.
Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...
If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.
Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?
"Ignore all penalties of difficult and dangerous terrain" this would be so much simpler...
That might be one way to do it, but honestly, I think it is just a matter of people not being able to believe or conceive that any unit could have an ability like this. For once, the RAW is quite clear, but many people seem to not believe that it could actually be this simple.
because it would make them too OP, and its really not in GW habits since the last 6 codexes that where nerfed into the ground into oblivion?
Every unit/combo that where deemed too strong for their purpose or cost/effeciency ratio when switching from their old dex into a 7Th Ed dex was nerfed at worst or at best "rebalanced", even if they are still usefull.
And here all of a sudden not only they are 3++, they have rending as a basic rule, +1T and their wips now counts as 2 CCW for a slight point increase AND they should not be hindered by the rule that ALL other models in the game can't ignore no matter what excepte if explicitly said so, and you expect people not to argue about it, that there is something afoot?
Until there is a FaQ, there will be arguments about this, now you each do as you want in your Metas anyway, since you have no obligations to anyone here.
i know that all the Necrons players in my area that discussed the matter( and don't come and say they don't know how to play their armies, 6 of them are in the top tourney players over here), and they all agreed that no you arn't immune to thInit penalty, that the wording might be different but the effect and end result is the same( also in french the wording is not that different, but then again you can't avoid a translation issue either...).
So i'm more enclined to believe my friends personnaly, now if its FaQ that way in the futur, then it will be undiscutable.
Im back, just to ask an opinion based on this rule.
Could the wraith charge a unit through a wall. Not a ruin, not anything that has windows but a solid brick wall. Not fluff wise, nothing like that. By this rule you should be able to do that right?
Doesn't that seem a little fething stupid to you too?
Anpu-adom wrote: Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...
If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.
Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?
Obviously it is a violation. Nothing allows wraiths to end within an inch och enemy models unless charging. The models do not cease to be models because they are treated as Open Ground. Neither does difficult terrain stop being just that.
The thing is that wraiths never count as having moved on difficult terrain. They count as having moved on Open Ground which triggers no charge penalties at all.
"Ignore all penalties of difficult and dangerous terrain" this would be so much simpler...
That might be one way to do it, but honestly, I think it is just a matter of people not being able to believe or conceive that any unit could have an ability like this. For once, the RAW is quite clear, but many people seem to not believe that it could actually be this simple.
because it would make them too OP, and its really not in GW habits since the last 6 codexes that where nerfed into the ground into oblivion?
Every unit/combo that where deemed too strong for their purpose or cost/effeciency ratio when switching from their old dex into a 7Th Ed dex was nerfed at worst or at best "rebalanced", even if they are still usefull.
And here all of a sudden not only they are 3++, they have rending as a basic rule, +1T and their wips now counts as 2 CCW for a slight point increase AND they should not be hindered by the rule that ALL other models in the game can't ignore no matter what excepte if explicitly said so, and you expect people not to argue about it, that there is something afoot?
Until there is a FaQ, there will be arguments about this, now you each do as you want in your Metas anyway, since you have no obligations to anyone here.
i know that all the Necrons players in my area that discussed the matter( and don't come and say they don't know how to play their armies, 6 of them are in the top tourney players over here), and they all agreed that no you arn't immune to thInit penalty, that the wording might be different but the effect and end result is the same( also in french the wording is not that different, but then again you can't avoid a translation issue either...).
So i'm more enclined to believe my friends personnaly, now if its FaQ that way in the futur, then it will be undiscutable.
You are correct in that every meta may decide on its own accord. However, that does not belong in YMDC, and so far this thread points to the opposite of what you've decided. Instead of talking about how wraiths are op (they are), try to provide something to counter the standing theory with.
EDIT - Whip Coils only count as a single CCWbtw, so wraiths do not get an extra attack.
Could the wraith charge a unit through a wall. Not a ruin, not anything that has windows but a solid brick wall. Not fluff wise, nothing like that. By this rule you should be able to do that right?
Doesn't that seem a little fething stupid to you too?
You require line of sight in order to charge a target. But as long as one wraith can see the target, the rest of the unit can pass through anything to get there.
Anpu-adom wrote: Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...
If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.
Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?
Obviously it is a violation. Nothing allows wraiths to end within an inch och enemy models unless charging. The models do not cease to be models because they are treated as Open Ground. Neither does difficult terrain stop being just that.
The thing is that wraiths never count as having moved on difficult terrain. They count as having moved on Open Ground which triggers no charge penalties at all.
One follows the other. If you treat difficult terrain as open ground because it isn't really there due to Wraithflight, then the enemy models are open ground as well... and thus not really there. The text tells you to treat them the same. If one doesn't exist to the wraiths during movement, then the other doesn't exist to the wraiths during movement. Once movement ends, however you've created an invalid situation in the rules. That should probably inform you as to the validity of your assumptions.
Anpu-adom wrote:Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...
If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.
Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?
They only treat models as Open Terrain as they move over them. Once they've moved over them they treat them as normal, so they can't be within 1" of them when they end their movement, unless they stop on top of them which is disallowed by Wraithflight.
Before you go "oh, so then once they're done moving over DT when charging they'd suffer the Initiative penalty" they wouldn't as when they themselves never moved through DT, only Open Ground. It doesn't matter that after they've moved over they treat as as DT as they aren't moving through it then and can't be penalised because of it.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:Im back, just to ask an opinion based on this rule.
Could the wraith charge a unit through a wall. Not a ruin, not anything that has windows but a solid brick wall. Not fluff wise, nothing like that. By this rule you should be able to do that right?
Doesn't that seem a little fething stupid to you too?
Not in the slightest as they have a rule that allows them to.
While you don't want the fluff-wise explanation for it, you have to realise that the rule exists because of the fluff; Wraiths just phase through it as if it isn't there. If, in the fluff, wraiths couldn't phase through walls and the like, I'd think it would be stupid for them to have such a rule, but not stupid to allow them to do so because they have the rule.
Anpu-adom wrote:Question for those who argue that wraiths don't take the initiative hit...
If terrain and models are open ground instead of what they are, I should be able to be within 1 inch of an enemy model at the end of any movement phase. Within 1 inch, would not be on top of the enemy model.
Agree, or is this a violation of a fundamental rule of the game a stretch?
They only treat models as Open Terrain as they move over them. Once they've moved over them they treat them as normal, so they can't be within 1" of them when they end their movement, unless they stop on top of them which is disallowed by Wraithflight.
Before you go "oh, so then once they're done moving over DT when charging they'd suffer the Initiative penalty" they wouldn't as when they themselves never moved through DT, only Open Ground. It doesn't matter that after they've moved over they treat as as DT as they aren't moving through it then and can't be penalised because of it.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote:Im back, just to ask an opinion based on this rule.
Could the wraith charge a unit through a wall. Not a ruin, not anything that has windows but a solid brick wall. Not fluff wise, nothing like that. By this rule you should be able to do that right?
Doesn't that seem a little fething stupid to you too?
Not in the slightest as they have a rule that allows them to.
While you don't want the fluff-wise explanation for it, you have to realise that the rule exists because of the fluff; Wraiths just phase through it as if it isn't there. If, in the fluff, wraiths couldn't phase through walls and the like, I'd think it would be stupid for them to have such a rule, but not stupid to allow them to do so because they have the rule.
First, on the charging through the wall... you have permission to move through the terrain as if it was open... yes. But you do not have permission to charge as you would not have line of sight to the enemy unit. That was what Kavik as getting at.
Secondly, I have showed that the interpretation of Wraithflight is invalid if it is based on the idea that 'difficult terrain and models' disappear as that interpretation leads to situations that break the game. I have also showed early in this thread that every instance in which a unit is allowed to ignore the initiative penalty it has been specifically allowed to by language that refers to the initiative penalty.
Increasingly strange to me, I'm now a long time Necron player... I started before the 5th edition book came out. I've lovingly converted 15 wraiths from bitz and greenstuff. I'm so incredibly excited by what can only be seen as a huge buff to the unit. However, these are the same arguments that were made when that 5th edition book came out. If GW had intended that we be able to ignore the initiative penalty, I firmly believe that they would have told us that. Just this week, we will see a codex with that exact same intention... the leaked Solitaire rules from the Harlequin Supplement. We are now getting rules by committee... so the person who did Harlequins worked on the Necrons. Why then does this book not include the words, "this ability allows you to ignore the initiative penalty for charging units inside difficult terrain..."? It can only be because it wasn't intended to ignore that rule.
43 points (with a required upgrade) is already very cheap for what we are getting with Wraiths... to add the ability to ignore that initiative penalty... well, it would be broken.
Anpu-adom wrote: Secondly, I have showed that the interpretation of Wraithflight is invalid if it is based on the idea that 'difficult terrain and models' disappear as that interpretation leads to situations that break the game.
That in no way invalidates that interpretation of Wraithflight as GW is quite good at writing rules that break the game when taken as is. The Psychic phase and what constitutes a 'Psyker unit' are prime examples.
Yes, of course Wraiths can't charge a target they can't see. I probably should of said "yes, if they can see the unit" but the point is, they could charge through the wall (if they could see the unit).
The models and terrain don't 'disappear', the wraiths just treat them as Open Ground. Where have you shown that our interpretation is invalid? Besides comparing them with Flip Belts and asking if we believe we can end within 1" of an enemy model (which I've shown we can't without making our interpretation wrong and invalid), you haven't really shown anything, let alone something that breaks the game (well, besides the fact that Wraiths are brokenly overpowered, but that isn't breaking any rules).
The 5th Ed rule was worded differently and gave a different, if similar) effect (the same effect the Flip Belt gives sans needed permission to allow them to ignore the I penalty and the 2+ LOS! roll). The rules for charging through DT state that even if a unit is not slowed by DT (what the 5th Ed rule said) they still suffer the I penalty, which is why Wraiths were penalised.
GW writing 2 rules with a similar (yet still different effect, 'quins can't move over models) effects in a different way shouldn't be surprising. Even though codexes are now a committee affair, two different people could have written both rules and everyone else just looked on and helped with balancing, or wrote an entirely different part of the rules for the army.
I'm not saying allowing Wraiths to ignore the I penalty isn't brokenly powerful (it is) but RAW, they can. Hence why I won't be fielding Wraiths unless I'm in a tournament (unlikely).
First, on the charging through the wall... you have permission to move through the terrain as if it was open... yes. But you do not have permission to charge as you would not have line of sight to the enemy unit. That was what Kavik as getting at.
Secondly, I have showed that the interpretation of Wraithflight is invalid if it is based on the idea that 'difficult terrain and models' disappear as that interpretation leads to situations that break the game. I have also showed early in this thread that every instance in which a unit is allowed to ignore the initiative penalty it has been specifically allowed to by language that refers to the initiative penalty.
Increasingly strange to me, I'm now a long time Necron player... I started before the 5th edition book came out. I've lovingly converted 15 wraiths from bitz and greenstuff. I'm so incredibly excited by what can only be seen as a huge buff to the unit. However, these are the same arguments that were made when that 5th edition book came out. If GW had intended that we be able to ignore the initiative penalty, I firmly believe that they would have told us that. Just this week, we will see a codex with that exact same intention... the leaked Solitaire rules from the Harlequin Supplement. We are now getting rules by committee... so the person who did Harlequins worked on the Necrons. Why then does this book not include the words, "this ability allows you to ignore the initiative penalty for charging units inside difficult terrain..."? It can only be because it wasn't intended to ignore that rule.
43 points (with a required upgrade) is already very cheap for what we are getting with Wraiths... to add the ability to ignore that initiative penalty... well, it would be broken.
However, not being able to charge through a wall due to lack of line of sight has nothing to do with this topic, so let us drop it.
The interpretation is not that anything disappears. It is that they are treated as Open Ground when moving. As Matt.Kingsley pointed out, you're not allowed to remain within 1" as youstop moving, so nothing breaks the game there. And what other rules says on the same topic has no relevance on Wraithflight. Plenty of proof has been provided as to why it works as we say it does, and yet no counter-argument as been able to tear down that proof. I've played Necrons since third ed and still have my metal proper wraiths. The wording now versus 5th is different, the surrounding rules are different and we are left with a scenario which does not work the way you say it does. You still haven't proven that there's anything wrong with "Wraithflight allows wraiths to move as if on open ground at all times, hence they do not trigger any penalties by moving into difficult terrain as it is not treated as such for the purpose of their movement".
You have also ignored that which has been stated earlier in the thread - the Flip Belt does not do anything close to what Wraithflight does. It only allows you to move at full speed in difficult terrain and ignore the initiative penalty. You are still treated as having moved through difficult terrain for all rules purposes, bar the explicit exceptions stated. Wraiths aren't even treated as having moved through difficult terrain, so they do not need a specific mention of the initiative penalty to begin with - they never trigger it, and as such will never suffer from it and have to ignore it.
Wraiths are cheap, and strong. It is truly odd that GW kept them at their current power level and even boosted it. But that doesn't have any bearing at all on this rules discussion. As it stands, wraithflight allows wraiths to strike at full initiative when charging into difficult terrain, thanks to not counting as having charged into difficult terrain but rather over open ground.
When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.
No one is suggesting that the terrain does not exist, but the specific rules for wraithflight defines that all terrain is to be treated as if it was open ground.
The underlined language isn't actually in the rules. Can we prove that "as if" is identical in meaning to "treated as" in the Necron Codex?
When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However, they cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is possible to actually place the models on top of it.
No one is suggesting that the terrain does not exist, but the specific rules for wraithflight defines that all terrain is to be treated as if it was open ground.
The underlined language isn't actually in the rules. Can we prove that "as if" is identical in meaning to "treated as" in the Necron Codex?
Currently it looks like it's a replacement. "As if" would mean the you replace the interactions with the stated one, so you would apply the rules "as if" the Wraith moved over Open Ground when it moves over any terrain or models.
Ooh, I just realised something with Wraithflight: RAW you can't move over enemy models as there it doesn't give you permission to ignore the "may not move within 1" of enemy models" rule.
We have 2 terrain types, T1 (open ground) and T2 (difficult terrain)
These terrain types have rules. T1 does not apply any penalties, T2 applies 2 penalties to simulate units being delayed when charging through it, lets call them P1 and P2.
Then the rules for T2 also has a clarification that says when a special rule states that a model is not "slowed" by T2, this refers to ignoring P1, but not P2. This is probably because lower initiative also means that you are slower, but slowed by refers only to moving distance.
Then we have the special rules.
*One special rules says "is not slowed by", in other words, it tells us to ignore P1. (5th edition wraithflight used this rule)
*Another special rule says ignore P1 and P2 (Harlequin)
*A third special rule says that instead of applying rules for T2 (or other terrains) we apply rules for T1. (wraithflight 7th ed) This also means you do not apply the rules for T2 at all, meaning you ignore both P1 and P2. It does not use the terminology "slowed by" and does not only refer to P1. It refers to P1, P2 and all other rules that are applied to T2. So no penalties whatsoever.
I am surprised how people can fail to see this logic. Have you never played board games? To me this is how rules normally work. GW are not consequent in their wording, but the logic is still the same as in other games...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Ooh, I just realised something with Wraithflight: RAW you can't move over enemy models as there it doesn't give you permission to ignore the "may not move within 1" of enemy models" rule.
That is not how that rule works. You can not place your model closer to 1" to an enemy, and you must move around other models. But the wraith flight rule says you can move over them instead, so you can. You can still not place them on top of them, and not within 1" unless you are charging (because as you say, there is a rule that prevents that which the wraithflight rule does not override)
Slayer le boucher wrote: because it would make them too OP, and its really not in GW habits since the last 6 codexes that where nerfed into the ground into oblivion?
Oh yes, imagine the horror if a unit ignored that penalty.
They even have Fearless, which means they ignore Fear.
Ridiculously overpowered.
Luckily we don't have Factions where EVERY unit has those things.. /sarcasm
What I need is the exact wording of the rule, as I have seen a couple versions typed here that people are saying is the rule.
So far, as I have read it, People are saying that "treat as" open ground means it is open ground. Yes?
Using this as a basis, "Treat as" saved means FnP is a save and thus cannot be used against attacks that don't allow saves of any kind. Which we now is not the case.
So, we know that "treat as" something does not make it something, and since the Wraith Flight rule does not remove the penalty for initiative, they strike at I1.
megatrons2nd wrote: What I need is the exact wording of the rule, as I have seen a couple versions typed here that people are saying is the rule.
So far, as I have read it, People are saying that "treat as" open ground means it is open ground. Yes?
Using this as a basis, "Treat as" saved means FnP is a save and thus cannot be used against attacks that don't allow saves of any kind. Which we now is not the case.
So, we know that "treat as" something does not make it something, and since the Wraith Flight rule does not remove the penalty for initiative, they strike at I1.
This is the wording:
"When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However they can not end their move on top of other models and they can only end their move on impassable terrain if it is possible to place the models on top of it"
Also, in the case of FNP, that is a question of sequencing. The FNP triggers by an unsaved wound. After you have rolled it, and the roll pass, you then treat it as if it was saved from there. You can't take back the roll, the FNP roll just makes the wound into a state that it couldn't have been if FNP didn't exist.
In the case with wraith flight, when moving the terrain is "as open ground", which means it follows the rules for open ground. Also please see my post above, because the wording for when you can't ignore initiative is also important.
It does NOT say "models that ignore difficult terrain still strike at ini 1", it says "models that are not slowed by difficult terrain still strike at ini 1". And slowed by is a specific wording that is commonly used in special rules, but not in the wraithflight rule. The wraithflight rules means you don't apply the rules at all regarding difficult terrain. You instead apply the rules as if it was open ground.
FNP would be a save if it wasn't for the pesky rule clarifying that it's not a save.
Therefore "treat as", as far as the 40k rules are concerned, means "is". So Wraiths didn't move over difficult terrain, they moved over Open Ground.
I'm missing the confusion. It mentions moving, that's movement phase. Says nothing about "when charging" or "when assaulting". Or if it does, then we need that quote.
Lobukia wrote: I'm missing the confusion. It mentions moving, that's movement phase. Says nothing about "when charging" or "when assaulting". Or if it does, then we need that quote.
So when moving, ignore DT
When charging, don't. How'd this go 4 pages?
Perhaps if you actually bothered to read the first page you'd know.
Lobukia wrote: I'm missing the confusion. It mentions moving, that's movement phase. Says nothing about "when charging" or "when assaulting". Or if it does, then we need that quote.
So when moving, ignore DT
When charging, don't. How'd this go 4 pages?
Because you move when you charge? And charge moves follow the movement rules (with specific exceptions)?
I dunno, just a thought. If you'd bother to read the thread you'd have seen that though.
Lobukia wrote: I'm missing the confusion. It mentions moving, that's movement phase. Says nothing about "when charging" or "when assaulting". Or if it does, then we need that quote.
So when moving, ignore DT
When charging, don't. How'd this go 4 pages?
We´ve been through this too.
It doesn't say "when moving in the movement phase". It says when moving. There is something called Charge move. That is when you move your models into base contact with the enemy unit. It even states that you move using the same rules as in the movement phase, with the exception that you may end your move within 1" of an enemy. Running is also moving. All of these are words and expressions actually used in the rulebook. There is a post in this thread with the actual quotes, look it up.
The actual rule says "as if". Moving is not charging. They are charging through difficult terrain. I'd understand an argument that they don't take the -2 (I disagree, but I can see the logic), but to claim that a move SR somehow ignores the Init 1 set modifier is such a wishful stretch as I'd probably laugh out loud at a tournament if someone told me that moving "as if" it was open terrain ignored a set modifier (who's conditions had been met) for having actually gone through DT or if they tried to apply modifiers in complete ignorance of the order of operations in 40k or the very specific Charging Through Terrain rules.
It clearly states that this only comes into play while moving, not figuring initiative or anything else. Again, only the actual movement is "as if" open terrain. There's no permission for anything else.
People are saying that terrain has changed to open ground or that you treat it as open terrain. Neither is true. For moving its just your moves. That's all it says, oddly enough that's all the RAW means.
All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move – up to the 2D6 distance you rolled earlier – following the same rules as in the Movement phase,
What rules do Wraiths use in the movement phase?
They are charging through difficult terrain. I'd understand an argument that they don't take the -2 (I disagree, but I can see the logic), but to claim that a move SR somehow ignores the Init 1 set modifier is such a wishful stretch as I'd probably laugh out loud at a tournament if someone told me that moving "as if" it was open terrain ignored a set modifier (who's conditions had been met) for having actually gone through DT or if they tried to apply modifiers in complete ignorance of the order of operations in 40k or the very specific Charging Through Terrain rules.
Go ahead and laugh out loud. The actual rules that exist would make the TO side with them and you be incorrect.
It clearly states that this only comes into play while moving, not figuring initiative or anything else. Again, only the actual movement is "as if" open terrain. There's no permission for anything else.
People are saying that terrain has changed to open ground or that you treat it as open terrain. Neither is true. For moving its just your moves. That's all it says, oddly enough that's all the RAW means.
If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?
If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?
They did move through difficult terrain. Just their movement happened as if it was open. That's terrain's still there, and when checking initiative, yes, they did charge through difficult terrain. This is now about the path of the models not about a special rule effecting how they moved through the terrain on that path.
Aah great, I was waiting for this. The entire Charge Move-sequence has 21 times the word move, moved or movement.
Are you really going to tell me that charging is not a move or should I quote each of those 21 lines? Because I would have to ask a mod if I am allowed to quote that many BRB-lines.
If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?
They did move through difficult terrain. Just their movement happened as if it was open. That's terrain's still there, and when checking initiative, yes, they did charge through difficult terrain. This is now about the path of the models not about a special rule effecting how they moved through the terrain on that path.
"As if" doesn't change what "is"
Then please tell me what the use of 'treat as if' is. What is the use of the entire Wraithflight-rule?
Its funny how people cannot seem to believe that wraiths could actually be played this way, while the harlies clearly can. With the way both units rules are written, they can both assault with no penalty to their initiative due to their individual, different special rules.
For everyone who is up in arms that the wraths are going to be soooo deadly now, the harlies get more attacks, with higher initiative and the same or better special rules for their attacks, on a waayyyy lesser points per model basis.
megatrons2nd wrote: What I need is the exact wording of the rule, as I have seen a couple versions typed here that people are saying is the rule.
So far, as I have read it, People are saying that "treat as" open ground means it is open ground. Yes?
Using this as a basis, "Treat as" saved means FnP is a save and thus cannot be used against attacks that don't allow saves of any kind. Which we now is not the case.
So, we know that "treat as" something does not make it something, and since the Wraith Flight rule does not remove the penalty for initiative, they strike at I1.
This is the wording:
"When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground. However they can not end their move on top of other models and they can only end their move on impassable terrain if it is possible to place the models on top of it"
Also, in the case of FNP, that is a question of sequencing. The FNP triggers by an unsaved wound. After you have rolled it, and the roll pass, you then treat it as if it was saved from there. You can't take back the roll, the FNP roll just makes the wound into a state that it couldn't have been if FNP didn't exist.
In the case with wraith flight, when moving the terrain is "as open ground", which means it follows the rules for open ground. Also please see my post above, because the wording for when you can't ignore initiative is also important.
It does NOT say "models that ignore difficult terrain still strike at ini 1", it says "models that are not slowed by difficult terrain still strike at ini 1". And slowed by is a specific wording that is commonly used in special rules, but not in the wraithflight rule. The wraithflight rules means you don't apply the rules at all regarding difficult terrain. You instead apply the rules as if it was open ground.
Thank you. That helps.
I am left to concede the point that Wraithflight does ignore the initiative penalty, as that line of reasoning is the same as my premise for other special rules activating on an unsaved wound and FnP not being able to stop them(at least in my turn as the active player chooses the order in which rules resolve) thank you.
Aah great, I was waiting for this.
The entire Charge Move-sequence has 21 times the word move, moved or movement.
Are you really going to tell me that charging is not a move or should I quote each of those 21 lines?
Because I would have to ask a mod if I am allowed to quote that many BRB-lines.
If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?
They did move through difficult terrain. Just their movement happened as if it was open. That's terrain's still there, and when checking initiative, yes, they did charge through difficult terrain. This is now about the path of the models not about a special rule effecting how they moved through the terrain on that path.
"As if" doesn't change what "is"
Then please tell me what the use of 'treat as if' is.
What is the use of the entire Wraithflight-rule?
if it said "treat as if", I could. You MOVE as if. I did say that I would concede the logic of no movement penalty on a charge (you can read it, right above, in the post you quoted from... so not sure why you spent most of your post trying to contend with something I already conceded to... whatever).
What is does say is "move as if". So you can do that. But it certainly does not say "fight as if" or "strike as if", or anything of that nature.
I like the point above about Harlies and their rules. Lets look at those. The flip belt takes the time to say that is both not slowed and doesn't take the initiative penalty. You know why? Because it needs to. One doesn't give the other.
Aah great, I was waiting for this.
The entire Charge Move-sequence has 21 times the word move, moved or movement.
Are you really going to tell me that charging is not a move or should I quote each of those 21 lines?
Because I would have to ask a mod if I am allowed to quote that many BRB-lines.
If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?
They did move through difficult terrain. Just their movement happened as if it was open. That's terrain's still there, and when checking initiative, yes, they did charge through difficult terrain. This is now about the path of the models not about a special rule effecting how they moved through the terrain on that path.
"As if" doesn't change what "is"
Then please tell me what the use of 'treat as if' is.
What is the use of the entire Wraithflight-rule?
if it said "treat as if", I could. You MOVE as if. I did say that I would concede the logic of no movement penalty on a charge (you can read it, right above, in the post you quoted from... so not sure why you spent most of your post trying to contend with something I already conceded to... whatever).
What is does say is "move as if". So you can do that. But it certainly does not say "fight as if" or "strike as if", or anything of that nature.
I like the point above about Harlies and their rules. Lets look at those. The flip belt takes the time to say that is both not slowed and doesn't take the initiative penalty. You know why? Because it needs to. One doesn't give the other.
You do understand that the Harlie rule and Wraithflight are worded very, very differently, yes?
If you move as if through Open Terrain, why are you assigning a penalty based on moving through difficult terrain? One that literally can only ever exist if you move through difficult terrain?
Lobukia wrote: Because you DID move through difficult terrain... you were just allowed to make that move as if it wasn't.
The rules disagree. If you say I moved through difficult terrain, you're not treating it as if I moved through Open Terrain.
Just the move
'cause that's what it says
all other phases and sub phases don't care what you pretended you were doing while moving, the checks are for what you did
Which IS moving through DT
So you take penalties as such
Please reference the rule requiring me to treat Open Terrain as difficult terrain - Wraithflight requires that I treat difficult terrain as Open Terrain.
Doing otherwise (what you're doing here) would require a contradicting rule.
BTW: I didn't bring up the harlies, someone else did.
And you used it in your argument. That means it's on you to verify the veracity or worthiness of the statement.
I am now certain that everyone who says you have moved through difficult terrain either doesnt actually own the rulebook or hasn't read the battlefield terrain section WHERE OPEN GROUND IS A TYPE OF TERRAIN!
sm3g wrote: I am now certain that everyone who says you have moved through difficult terrain either doesnt actually own the rulebook or hasn't read the battlefield terrain section WHERE OPEN GROUND IS A TYPE OF TERRAIN!
Please don't yell or antagonize people.
The BRB is a complicated book with a lot of rules interactions that have changed in the recent edition that are obscure. The only reason I stumbled upon this was due to an earlier discussion about Citadel Scenery Models. If you feel someone needs to refer to a section of the book, simply recommend them to, as antagonizing people usually causes them to become more combative and does not help the discussion.
Though on that note, you should not have a rules argument unless you have the most current rules at your disposal. Otherwise you may be arguing a point based on misinformation.
If you disagree with what someone is saying, double check it with your own eyes and make your own opinion.
The rules disagree. If you say I moved through difficult terrain, you're not treating it as if I moved through Open Terrain.
I don't have to for assault initiative steps. You're reading it as "move as if open terrain, and then apply that to all other scenarios other than movement where you check for terrain". You're inferring a meaning that is not there. You have permission to do the movement part of a turn "as if open terrain". You do not have permission to use if for anything else other than movement. And it doesn't say "treat as if". If it did say "treat the wraith as if is moving through open terrain" you'd have a point. That wraith would now have the status "moved through open terrain" for any further checks. But that's not what the rules say at all. It says "move" and only move is done "as if" it was open terrain.
If I said "schedule today as if it was a Thursday" to my secretary and then an hour later asked her what day it was... if she didn't say "Monday", we'd all find that odd. Same thing. Moving = as if open terrain... what terrain did it actually go over = is difficult... now swing at init 1.
I can't stop you from applying things that aren't there, or dropping in meanings that don't exist. But putting the burden of proof on my position is backwards. The rules and grammar support my reading of the rule as it is written. Any inference is happening on your end and therefore needs additional support.
No it isn't like asking what day it is, it's like asking "what schedule did I follow yesterday?". If they said anything other than Thursday's they'd be wrong (unless of course Thursday's schedule is the same as another day's, but we'll assume it's not).
The I penalty calls for them to have moved through DT. Have they? If you say yes then you aren't following the Wraithflight special rule which says "no, they moved through Open Ground".
The rules disagree. If you say I moved through difficult terrain, you're not treating it as if I moved through Open Terrain.
I don't have to for assault initiative steps. You're reading it as "move as if open terrain, and then apply that to all other scenarios other than movement where you check for terrain". You're inferring a meaning that is not there. You have permission to do the movement part of a turn "as if open terrain". You do not have permission to use if for anything else other than movement. And it doesn't say "treat as if". If it did say "treat the wraith as if is moving through open terrain" you'd have a point. That wraith would now have the status "moved through open terrain" for any further checks. But that's not what the rules say at all. It says "move" and only move is done "as if" it was open terrain.
Since you've misquoted it - and been corrected - multiple times, let's look at the actual rule again.
When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground.
If the Wraith moves over difficult terrain and you force an initiative penalty, it did not move over terrain as if it was open ground.
If the Wraith moves over difficult terrain and you force a -2" penalty to the charge range, it did not move over terrain as if it was open ground.
If I said "schedule today as if it was a Thursday" to my secretary and then an hour later asked her what day it was... if she didn't say "Monday", we'd all find that odd. Same thing.
It's almost like bad analogies are bad...
Moving = as if open terrain... what terrain did it actually go over = is difficult... now swing at init 1.
If the answer is difficult, then the wraith did not move over the terrain as if it was open ground. It moved as if it was difficult without any movement penalty - which isn't what the rules says.
I can't stop you from applying things that aren't there, or dropping in meanings that don't exist. But putting the burden of proof on my position is backwards. The rules and grammar support my reading of the rule as it is written. Any inference is happening on your end and therefore needs additional support.
Your stance has been proven incorrect and you've moved the goalposts multiple times. The burden of proof absolutely belongs on you - I've shown that the rules actually support the Wraith moving over Open ground, not difficult terrain.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: No it isn't like asking what day it is, it's like asking "what schedule did I follow yesterday?". If they said anything other than Thursday's they'd be wrong (unless of course Thursday's schedule is the same as another day's, but we'll assume it's not).
See, this is what I'm talking about. You guys are holding onto a status longer than the rules allow. You can say its open for moving. But you can't say its open for checking what terrain it is. It is what it is, difficult. You get to MOVE "as if" it wasn't. Only move, not swing blows, not order the initiative, not all this other stuff that the rule simply does not allow.
The I penalty calls for them to have moved through DT. Have they? If you say yes then you aren't following the Wraithflight special rule which says "no, they moved through Open Ground".
I most certainly am. We get to pretend, while moving, that its open terrain. Again. That's what the rules say. Any further application is simply not RAW.
And if, while moving, the DT is Open Ground for them, they can never move through DT (because it's Open Ground) and therefore never activate the I penalty.
Lobukia wrote: I most certainly am. We get to pretend, while moving, that its open terrain. Again. That's what the rules say. Any further application is simply not RAW.
Actual Rules instead of making things up wrote:To represent this, if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain.
Did a model move through difficult terrain as part of its charge move? Demonstrably not - they moved as if it was open ground.
Therefore your assertions are incorrect, using applied RAW.
Lobukia wrote: See, this is what I'm talking about. You guys are holding onto a status longer than the rules allow.
And you're trying to enforce a penalty that only triggers by moving through difficult terrain, when the Wraithflight rules say that they can move over all terrain as if it were open ground. You're trying to retroactively trigger a rule when the unit attacks that only triggers when the unit moves.
One thing, because I see it being used a lot of times:
Flip Belt and Wraithflight have different wordings because they have a different background.
Wraithflight 'ignores' the terrain because it's a flight.
Flip Belt 'ignores' the terrain because they make the bearer extremely agily.
Lobukia, you are essentially ignoring the BRB's definition of what charging is - a charge move, which is a form of movement. You can only suffer the initiative penalty from a charge move by charging through difficult terrain. Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground. This means that once they begin a charge, which is a form of movement, they "can" treat difficult terrain as open which changes that terrain type for the wraiths.
Beginning of Assault Phase
Wraiths Declare Charge
Overwatch
Roll Distance
Wraiths enter Open Ground (Difficult Terrain)
Game Status check! Did Wraiths move through Difficult Terrain? No, because they moved through Open Ground. Do they suffer a initiative or movement penalty? No, because they moved through Open Ground.
End Game Status check!
Wraiths end their movement.
Assault
To add to this, Wraiths are also beasts and have move through cover, Fleet, and are not slowed by terrain, and auto pass Dangerous terrain tests, as well as Wraith flight.
So yeah they get to swing at I5 with Whip coils when charging a unit in terrain.
Beast still takes the Init drop, its explicitly said in the rule "..., even if the unit is not slowed down by terrain..".
Move through cover avoids them to make dangerous terrain checks and throw an extra D6 when moving and fleet just allow to rethrow a Sprint/Assault throw.
So Beast/Cavalery takes the Ini drop, whats not clear is about the Wraithflight, the only thing i'm seeing, is free interpretation of the way its written.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Beast still takes the Init drop, its explicitly said in the rule "..., even if the unit is not slowed down by terrain..".
Move through cover avoids them to make dangerous terrain checks and throw an extra D6 when moving and fleet just allow to rethrow a Sprint/Assault throw.
So Beast/Cavalery takes the Ini drop, whats not clear is about the Wraithflight, the only thing i'm seeing, is free interpretation of the way its written.
There is actually only one correct interpretation of how wraithflight interacts with terrain, including when charging. Wraiths invoking wraithflight can never ever move through difficult terrain (treating it as Open ground instead), and can as such never ever suffer the I penalty. Any other interpretation is incorrect, as the chain of logic constantly repeated in this thread shows.
Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.
"I'll make a cover save agains that lascannon"..."what cover save your in open ground"...
deevil wrote: Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.
"I'll make a cover save agains that lascannon"..."what cover save your in open ground"...
If I recall, you fire Overwatch, then you perform your charge move.
Also, they have a 3+ Invulnerable Save.
deevil wrote: Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.
"I'll make a cover save agains that lascannon"..."what cover save your in open ground"...
From 'Wraithflight' in Codex Necrons:
When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground.
Cover is determined by whether or not the firing unit can see their targets. It has nothing to do with how the targeted unit treats the terrain.
deevil wrote: Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.
"I'll make a 3+ invulnerable save agains that lascannon"..."f**k"...
Slayer le boucher wrote: Beast still takes the Init drop, its explicitly said in the rule "..., even if the unit is not slowed down by terrain..".
Move through cover avoids them to make dangerous terrain checks and throw an extra D6 when moving and fleet just allow to rethrow a Sprint/Assault throw.
So Beast/Cavalery takes the Ini drop, whats not clear is about the Wraithflight, the only thing i'm seeing, is free interpretation of the way its written.
There is actually only one correct interpretation of how wraithflight interacts with terrain, including when charging. Wraiths invoking wraithflight can never ever move through difficult terrain (treating it as Open ground instead), and can as such never ever suffer the I penalty. Any other interpretation is incorrect, as the chain of logic constantly repeated in this thread shows.
EDIT - So it is, actually, very clear.
There is one time that open terrain would count at Difficult/Dangerous and that is a round from the Thunderfire cannon, which makes open ground count as Dangerous/Difficult. but other than that I believe you are correct
deevil wrote: Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.
"I'll make a cover save agains that lascannon"..."what cover save your in open ground"...
They treat it as open ground when moving. Which means if someone where shooting at them while they where moving they wouldn't get a cover save =) I have never seen that happen in a 40K-game. Not even when firing overwatch, because overwatch triggers before the charge move.
However, the difficult terrain penalty that sets initiative 1 is triggered by moving through difficult terrain, so if they move as if in open terrain, it does not trigger.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Beast still takes the Init drop, its explicitly said in the rule "..., even if the unit is not slowed down by terrain..".
Move through cover avoids them to make dangerous terrain checks and throw an extra D6 when moving and fleet just allow to rethrow a Sprint/Assault throw.
So Beast/Cavalery takes the Ini drop, whats not clear is about the Wraithflight, the only thing i'm seeing, is free interpretation of the way its written.
There is actually only one correct interpretation of how wraithflight interacts with terrain, including when charging. Wraiths invoking wraithflight can never ever move through difficult terrain (treating it as Open ground instead), and can as such never ever suffer the I penalty. Any other interpretation is incorrect, as the chain of logic constantly repeated in this thread shows.
EDIT - So it is, actually, very clear.
There is one time that open terrain would count at Difficult/Dangerous and that is a round from the Thunderfire cannon, which makes open ground count as Dangerous/Difficult. but other than that I believe you are correct
Moving as if in difficult terrain is the one effect that does effect the wraiths. Luckily, the Tremor effect on the TFC Only works in the movement phase. In addition to that, wraiths have move through cover so would ignore the movement penalty anyway!
But if you somehow apply a "move as if in difficult terrain" during the assault phase, they would strike at I1 if charging ondeed.
megatrons2nd wrote: What would happen if they were hit by something with strike down? It makes them move as if in difficult terrain the following turn.
Their rule only works on Terrain (Citadel Scenery Models) and Models, so any special rules that cause them to move as if they are in something will work.
megatrons2nd wrote: What would happen if they were hit by something with strike down? It makes them move as if in difficult terrain the following turn.
It would have no effect. They move as if in difficult terrain... and Wraithflight lets them treat difficult terrain as open ground.
megatrons2nd wrote: What would happen if they were hit by something with strike down? It makes them move as if in difficult terrain the following turn.
It would have no effect. They move as if in difficult terrain... and Wraithflight lets them treat difficult terrain as open ground.
I'm not so sure about that. The actual rule says "[...]can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground.", which implies that while they may treat any terrain as open, they aren't immune to having to move as if in difficult terrain by an effect.
TompiQ wrote: ...which implies that while they may treat any terrain as open, they aren't immune to having to move as if in difficult terrain by an effect.
TompiQ wrote: ...which implies that while they may treat any terrain as open, they aren't immune to having to move as if in difficult terrain by an effect.
How does it imply that?
Well, it would be the same as any other model suffering the same effect while on open ground, would it not? Since it's only the actual terrain that is counted as open ground, which in turn is what grants the wraiths the ability to ignore difficult terrain completely. Of course their Move Through Cover covers all the movement penalties, but the initiative one would trigger if you were under such an effect while charging.
Well, it would be the same as any other model suffering the same effect while on open ground, would it not?
No. Because any other model doesn't treat difficult terrain as open ground.
If the wraith moves in open ground, he treats it as open ground.
If the wraith moves in difficult terrain, he treats it as open ground.
So something that causes the open ground to treated as difficult terrain makes no difference to the wraith... because he moves in difficult terrain as if it was open ground anyway.
Well, it would be the same as any other model suffering the same effect while on open ground, would it not?
No. Because any other model doesn't treat difficult terrain as open ground.
If the wraith moves in open ground, he treats it as open ground.
If the wraith moves in difficult terrain, he treats it as open ground.
So something that causes the open ground to treated as difficult terrain makes no difference to the wraith... because he moves in difficult terrain as if it was open ground anyway.
The wraith is allowed to treat terrain as open ground. But "moving as if in difficult terrain" is an effect on its movement, it is not dependent on what terrain the wraith is actually passing through. It would have made a difference if the rule was "treat all terrain as difficult terrain". Then the wraith could have invoked wraithflight to move over it as if it were open ground.
Well, it would be the same as any other model suffering the same effect while on open ground, would it not?
No. Because any other model doesn't treat difficult terrain as open ground.
If the wraith moves in open ground, he treats it as open ground.
If the wraith moves in difficult terrain, he treats it as open ground.
So something that causes the open ground to treated as difficult terrain makes no difference to the wraith... because he moves in difficult terrain as if it was open ground anyway.
I take it you interpret terrain as Terrain Types instead of the actual terrain models on the table.
insaniak wrote: I interpret 'terrain' as 'terrain'... Which includes the board, not just the terrain models put on top of it.
But even then, the only effect Wraithflight has is allowing you to move over models/terrain features (even if this includes the whole board) as if they were open ground. The rule is not that the wraith always moves through open ground. Everything around it just happens to be open ground, from its own perspective. If you then have to move as if in difficult terrain, you have to do so despite everything being open ground around you, which is why the wraith then has to take the I hit if charging under such an effect, with MTC mitigating the rest.
insaniak wrote: I interpret 'terrain' as 'terrain'... Which includes the board, not just the terrain models put on top of it.
I would agree with you on that, but I don't see how you are applying the Wraithflight rule. It only applies to terrain and models, not to being forced to move as if their are in difficult terrain.
In Battlefield Terrain, terrain is referred to as the physical model or object, while Terrain Types can be applied to or from other things. If the Wraiths are afflicted by such a rule, they would still treat the terrain and models they move over as open ground, however, Wraithflight gives no protection against Terrain Types that don't come from moving over a piece of terrain or model.
However you read it, show your opponent before game start. Tell them how you interpret it, and see how they feel. Until there is a FAQ, please do that.
Spaz431 wrote: However you read it, show your opponent before game start. Tell them how you interpret it, and see how they feel. Until there is a FAQ, please do that.
After researching the rules for move through cover and charging through difficult terrain...
"Warriors who charge through difficult terrain are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire and must advance more cautiously. To represent this, [please read as bold type] IF AT LEAST ONE MODEL IN THE CHARGING UNIT MOVED THROUGH DIFFICULT TERRAIN AS PART OF ITS CHARGE MOVE, ALL OF THE UNIT'S MODELS MUST ATTACK AT INITIATIVE STEP 1 [end bold], regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain. Remember charging models must engage as many enemies in the target unit as possible."
Mini-Rule Book, page 47, second actual paragraph under "Charging Through Difficult Terrain"
Used without permission.
Yes, that was covered pages ago. Since Wraithflight says they "... can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground..." they never trigger that rule because they're never charging through difficult terrain.
Spaz431 wrote: After researching the rules for move through cover and charging through difficult terrain...
"Warriors who charge through difficult terrain are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire and must advance more cautiously. To represent this, [please read as bold type] IF AT LEAST ONE MODEL IN THE CHARGING UNIT MOVED THROUGH DIFFICULT TERRAIN AS PART OF ITS CHARGE MOVE, ALL OF THE UNIT'S MODELS MUST ATTACK AT INITIATIVE STEP 1 [end bold], regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain. Remember charging models must engage as many enemies in the target unit as possible."
Mini-Rule Book, page 47, second actual paragraph under "Charging Through Difficult Terrain"
Used without permission.
Move through cover was never involved in the argument. Refer to what Ghaz wrote above, and feel free to read the rest of the thread.
Spaz431 wrote: After researching the rules for move through cover and charging through difficult terrain...
"Warriors who charge through difficult terrain are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire and must advance more cautiously. To represent this, [please read as bold type] IF AT LEAST ONE MODEL IN THE CHARGING UNIT MOVED THROUGH DIFFICULT TERRAIN AS PART OF ITS CHARGE MOVE, ALL OF THE UNIT'S MODELS MUST ATTACK AT INITIATIVE STEP 1 [end bold], regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain. Remember charging models must engage as many enemies in the target unit as possible."
Mini-Rule Book, page 47, second actual paragraph under "Charging Through Difficult Terrain"
Used without permission.
Move through cover was never involved in the argument. Refer to what Ghaz wrote above, and feel free to read the rest of the thread.
I wonder how many times this is going to happen?
I mean he's, what, the third guy to barge into the thread declaring that he's found the answer by reading the rules for charging through difficult terrain without having bothered to go over the thread first?
Spaz431 wrote: After researching the rules for move through cover and charging through difficult terrain...
"Warriors who charge through difficult terrain are subject to deadly salvoes of close range fire and must advance more cautiously. To represent this, [please read as bold type] IF AT LEAST ONE MODEL IN THE CHARGING UNIT MOVED THROUGH DIFFICULT TERRAIN AS PART OF ITS CHARGE MOVE, ALL OF THE UNIT'S MODELS MUST ATTACK AT INITIATIVE STEP 1 [end bold], regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain. Remember charging models must engage as many enemies in the target unit as possible."
Mini-Rule Book, page 47, second actual paragraph under "Charging Through Difficult Terrain"
Used without permission.
Move through cover was never involved in the argument. Refer to what Ghaz wrote above, and feel free to read the rest of the thread.
I wonder how many times this is going to happen?
I mean he's, what, the third guy to barge into the thread declaring that he's found the answer by reading the rules for charging through difficult terrain without having bothered to go over the thread first?
Maybe some of us find that one side's repeating the same tired yet unconvincing argument over and over via different posters is no more persuasive to us as when we do the same is to you. But that's ok. Pots, kettles, never mattered in YMDC.
np... I am still trying to digest all this new stuff (almost wish for the good old days of Rogue Trader)
Sorry if I've come across as blunt in this thread, i seem to sound meaner the more tired I've become. 
I will also treasure this as one of those rare moments when opinions change on 
