I saw this on the FW site and thought dakka would appreciate.
A new/updated Imperial Armour – The Siege of Vraks is being released by FW this month. It's going to be a fresh compendium of IA: 5, 6, & 7. Plus, there looks to be some cool additions based on the Table of Contents:
As a DKK player, I'm interested to see what the Death Rider squadron and Gorgon assault squadron Battle-forged detachments are? My curosity is buzzing!
I picked up my copy on the weekender as I'm a massive fan of the Vraks V1 books and have a sizable renegade army that I built of the back of running the campaign. I've stuck my review in the FW thread in the News forum. I can't speak on the DKK side as I don't know those lists very well but as a renegade player I found the new book disappointing, its missing the campaign so I have to keep the old books around and it is a lazy cut and paste of the IA13 list with the Vraks v2 list losing options dropping from four gods to two gods and not really gaining a lot in return. The two custom detachments are the best thing in the book but are hardly worth the price of admission.
As a big DKoK fan I am curious about the changes to the new list, orders and warlord traits. I like playing the current PDF list a lot btw.
The thing which made me jump with curiosity however, is the Death Rider detachment. Being a big fan of Death riders (I got 30 of the guys) I am looking forward to using them as their own detachment in an upcomming Apoc game.
I've some doubts about this new book however, doesn't look like there are many changes from the unit entry. And Looky's review doesn't bode well either.
I'm curious to know what the new DKK battle-forged detachments are. Can someone provide a general idea what the composition/rules are for these two detachments? Even better would be a review of the whole DKK list!
Hopefully one day they digitally release their Imperial Armor books so getting one outside of Europe is not ridiculously expensive on top of the books all being Textbook priced already.
SRSFACE wrote: Hopefully one day they digitally release their Imperial Armor books so getting one outside of Europe is not ridiculously expensive on top of the books all being Textbook priced already.
Even in the UK is ridiculously expensive, IA 11 for example is like £60-£70 with shipping for a freaking 5th edition book full of units that have been more recently updated in other IA books. While I know that's no where near as expensive as to America it's still a hefty load.
For example I could get a fairly decent Corsair army 1k-2k points for around £160-£200 but then it would cost me around £130 just for the books to field it not counting the main rulebook or the Eldar Codex which Forgeworld emails suggest to use for the updated weapons points/profiles.
So it's still rather ridiculous here.
Back on-topic Siege of Vraks looks to be very interesting and decently priced and I hope this is a trend of us getting updated versions of older IA stuff more regularly.
I wonder how they've handled orders.
Edit: Also I wonder if they'll do an updated version of the Badab War books considering all of the FAQs that they have.
Crabbit wrote: An updated IA:12 would be nice too or atleast a faq/errata to fix all the disparities between the book and 7th AM codex.
Yeah, IA12 and IA1:2E both desperately need updates, both being based on the 5E IG codex.
As updating both IA1:2e and IA12 for re-release could take awhile, seems like FW could remedy a quick fix by releasing a FAQ stipulating that all codex-identical units found in these IA references should use the point-costs, stats, weapon profiles, and rules presented in Codex:AM. Would that be a sufficient bandage?
SRSFACE wrote: Hopefully one day they digitally release their Imperial Armor books so getting one outside of Europe is not ridiculously expensive on top of the books all being Textbook priced already.
Even in the UK is ridiculously expensive, IA 11 for example is like £60-£70 with shipping for a freaking 5th edition book full of units that have been more recently updated in other IA books. While I know that's no where near as expensive as to America it's still a hefty load.
For example I could get a fairly decent Corsair army 1k-2k points for around £160-£200 but then it would cost me around £130 just for the books to field it not counting the main rulebook or the Eldar Codex which Forgeworld emails suggest to use for the updated weapons points/profiles.
So it's still rather ridiculous here.
That's what I mean. The prices of the books are textbook high already. Shipping them to outside the UK is just putting it that much more out of reach of US customers.
Crabbit wrote: An updated IA:12 would be nice too or atleast a faq/errata to fix all the disparities between the book and 7th AM codex.
Yeah, IA12 and IA1:2E both desperately need updates, both being based on the 5E IG codex.
As updating both IA1:2e and IA12 for re-release could take awhile, seems like FW could remedy a quick fix by releasing a FAQ stipulating that all codex-identical units found in these IA references should use the point-costs, stats, weapon profiles, and rules presented in Codex:AM. Would that be a sufficient bandage?
It would, and I've emailed them about it, but unfortunately they don't seem to be in any hurry. They updated the stuff in 5E rather quickly with PDF's, but unfortunately methinks they've got the same directive the rest of GW has, which is that PDF updates will only be done to stuff to ensure minimum required functionality (i.e. including hull points), and anything else will have to wait for existing stock to sell out and an updated product made ready for sale.
Same reason we've got two different rules for Chimeras right now (one in the INQ book and one in the IG book)
FW digital releases would be nice on the wallet and environment, but they would have to be done right. The current GW epub codices are atrocious to look at and difficult to navigate quickly. IMO, A better format would be something more like an digital magazine. Maybe something similar to what issuu does. Here is an example:
Digital books are not going to happen in the foreseeable future. FW have explicitly stated that they believe that part of what makes their product appealing is having a nice hardcover book and they have no interest in making a digital version.
I can't see them going digital in the next few years, GW won't or can't spend the money needed to put in the skilled team needed for digital publishing. There is no reason an epub or mobi need look bad other than lack of time or skill.
IA8 is nearly sold out and they have IA9/IA10 discounted so I would expect version 2 of IA8 soon and IA9/10 around Christmas. I'm not holding my breath that they will be anything other than a lazy update to the rules. IA1/2 added a ton of new rules in for new models, we simply haven't had much new stuff for these books and I'm not expecting it. I will keep my fingers crossed that we see the big battle fortress again for IA8.
Personnally, I don't intend on buying Vraks until my other two fairly recent IG Imperial Armour books are updated via PDF.
I really like what Forgeworld offers, and the quality of their models and rules, but I'm not going to, as a customer, encourage GW-like behaviour. The have to make sure that I can be confident with my purchase having some longevity beyond a few months for me to consider paying their prices and shipping.
I bough IA1 2nd Edition without hesitation (I do love me some armour) and once I decided to go Death Korps, I grabbed IA12 and was very happy with the product, but I am not going to chase $100 books if they're going to be rendered obsolete rapidly (owing to GW admittedly more than FW) and then forgotten about in favour of new $100 book releases.
FW's business choices as of late have been making me nervous; the switch to "conversion kits" for HH which are missing like three components, making 5 man marine squads ~$100, no PDF updates which would be quite simple in most cases (IA1 literally requires "use Codex:IG points values for x y z, IA12 requires that and a few other points tweaks/order updates), I'm just not liking what I'm seeing.
Crabbit wrote: An updated IA:12 would be nice too or atleast a faq/errata to fix all the disparities between the book and 7th AM codex.
Yeah, IA12 and IA1:2E both desperately need updates, both being based on the 5E IG codex.
As updating both IA1:2e and IA12 for re-release could take awhile, seems like FW could remedy a quick fix by releasing a FAQ stipulating that all codex-identical units found in these IA references should use the point-costs, stats, weapon profiles, and rules presented in Codex:AM. Would that be a sufficient bandage?
It would, and I've emailed them about it, but unfortunately they don't seem to be in any hurry. They updated the stuff in 5E rather quickly with PDF's, but unfortunately methinks they've got the same directive the rest of GW has, which is that PDF updates will only be done to stuff to ensure minimum required functionality (i.e. including hull points), and anything else will have to wait for existing stock to sell out and an updated product made ready for sale.
Same reason we've got two different rules for Chimeras right now (one in the INQ book and one in the IG book)
I contacted FW too, but to no avail. I am considering doing the work form them for the sake of the community. Basically, I would use the current DKK siege list PDF as a template for all DKK army lists that need to be updated and make the appropriate corrections in Adobe Illustrator. IA1:2ed would take a bit more work. Do you think FW would post it on their site? Would anyone want to help?
Peregrine wrote: Digital books are not going to happen in the foreseeable future. FW have explicitly stated that they believe that part of what makes their product appealing is having a nice hardcover book and they have no interest in making a digital version.
That is disappointing. I like a quality hardcover as much as the next guy, but it seems a bit antiquated to not move towards digital alternatives.
Looky Likey wrote: IA8 is nearly sold out and they have IA9/IA10 discounted so I would expect version 2 of IA8 soon and IA9/10 around Christmas. I'm not holding my breath that they will be anything other than a lazy update to the rules. IA1/2 added a ton of new rules in for new models, we simply haven't had much new stuff for these books and I'm not expecting it. I will keep my fingers crossed that we see the big battle fortress again for IA8.
That would be just our luck, they update/release the appropriate IAs to 7th right before 8th drops.
Crabbit wrote: I'm curious to know what the new DKK battle-forged detachments are. Can someone provide a general idea what the composition/rules are for these two detachments? Even better would be a review of the whole DKK list!
I'm not an IG or DKoK player so I don't think I have the knowledge to review the list. The Hades Drill is still a DT, and is now a MC not a vehicle. The list still has traditional HS stuff in the Elites slots (Rapiers, Field Artillery, Hydra platforms. Commissaar-general is a HQ choice. CCS has option for MoO and OotF.
Senior Officer orders: Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight.
Junior Officer orders: Dig In, First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, Clear the Trenches.
Warlord Traits:
12" +1 combat result
6" Twin-link one Ordnance weapon
Fearless & FNP (6+) whilst in fortification or getting cover from a defence line
May choose to use Night Fighting
6" Preferred Enemy (Infantry) in own deployment zone
Shatter Defences vs one piece of terrain in enemy deployment zone
Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.
Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So what's the difference for the Alpha Legion dude, and what's the Purge Detachment do?
The CSM characters are HQ choices only for CSM.
Pretty similar. Chaos Lord with T5, 5++. Combi-melta, Dark Blade (+2S, AP3, Rending). VotLW, Counter-attack, squad gains CA too. Warlord trait allows him to choose board edge but sacrifice first turn, also re-roll seize.
The Purge: 1HQ & 2EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 8TR, 4EL, 4HS, 1LoW, 1 Fortification. Can be Chaos Renegades or Chaos Space Marines. Marks and Devotions can only be Nurgle or nothing. Blast Barrages stay in player until start of firer's next turn and count as dangerous terrain. Flamers, heavy flamers and missile launchers can be chemical, templates get Shred and Gets Hot, Missiles are small blast, Shred and Gets Hot.
Baragash wrote: The Hades Drill is still a DT, and is now a MC not a vehicle.
Let us always remember this important day, when GW finally admitted that there is no sensible answer to the question "what decides if a unit is a MC or a vehicle".
Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.
Wow. That's pretty bad. You'd think they could have at least given it additional charge range or something. I guess it's a cheap way to add some death riders to an existing army without paying the troops + HQ tax?
Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.
This, on the other hand, is pretty awesome. An extra LoW (and the Gorgon isn't bad if it doesn't take up your LoW slot) and a useful bonus, and the minimum requirements aren't bad. I guess this kind of makes up for the failure of the death rider formation?
Duty unto Death: Target unit can re-roll failed Ld tests until their next Shooting Phase. If they roll a double 1 for any Ld test in this time they are Fearless until their next Shooting Phase.
Dig In: Until next Shooting Phase +1 cover from non-Fortifications (or 6+ if no cover), can't Run, can't move or Assault in Assault phase.
Clear the Trenches: Lasguns are R12" Assault 2 this turn and unit gains MTC.
DKoK still +1WS, immune to Fear, no Morale checks for 25% casualties, if within 6" of an Officer may regroup even if under 25% of starting strength.
Breaching Drill:
S8 T7 W3 AS3+.
Is actually part of the Engineer Squad.
4++ on the turn it arrives (???!!!).
Can now move 12" and ignore all terrain and models but must not end move within 2" of models (also gains the not very useful 4++ when moving like this).
Can also tunnel to assault, rolls extra D6 and discards the highest, No overwatch, ignores terrain, counts as assault grenades. D6+2 HoW resolved at melta-cutter stats. When used against a building or fortification embarked models roll a 4+ each to suffer S4 AP2 hit.
Death Riders are W2, I don't know if that's a change or not.
@Peregrine: possibly the Drill is an MC because it's part of the Engineer squad and making it a vehicle opens some cans of worms (like Overlords on CCBs and psychic powers etc). This may actually be the day someone at GW made the choice for a sensible reason.
Baragash wrote: Duty unto Death: Target unit can re-roll failed Ld tests until their next Shooting Phase. If they roll a double 1 for any Ld test in this time they are Fearless until their next Shooting Phase.
Oh good, continuing the IA12 tradition of giving DKoK a dozen different and mostly redundant ways to ignore leadership tests. I guess "we don't run" fluff is more important than giving useful orders?
Dig In: Until next Shooting Phase +1 cover from non-Fortifications (or 6+ if no cover), can't Run, can't move or Assault in Assault phase.
This is potentially interesting. Unlike the codex order you don't have to go to ground to get the extra cover bonus, which is pretty nice.
Clear the Trenches: Lasguns are R12" Assault 2 this turn and unit gains MTC.
And good to see this one back, especially with that Gorgon formation. Does it apply to just lasguns, or are laspistols included like in IA12? Making pistols assault 2 was a nice option for death riders.
Breaching Drill:
The most important question: how does it arrive from deep strike? Has it gone back to something like the old 5th edition rules where it hits stuff and then pushes the survivors out of the way, or does it keep the 6th edition rules where it has little chance of clearing a spot and is almost guaranteed to mishap if you try to use its deep strike attack instead of wasting it by going into clear space?
D6+2 HoW resolved at melta-cutter stats.
And this is just hilarious. Looks like we're back to throwing marines into the wood chipper, unlike the underwhelming D3 tank shock hits from the 6th edition version.
Death Riders are W2, I don't know if that's a change or not.
It's not. Good to have confirmation that they kept it though, as it was a very nice addition in IA12.
@Peregrine: possibly the Drill is an MC because it's part of the Engineer squad and making it a vehicle opens some cans of worms (like Overlords on CCBs and psychic powers etc). This may actually be the day someone at GW made the choice for a sensible reason.
I don't know, making it an MC that's part of the squad opens different cans of worms (rolling against majority T3 and wasting the toughness of a MC, does the unit count as a MC or infantry, etc). I don't know why it has to be part of the squad at all instead of being an independent unit like it always has been.
Thanks a thon for the reviews. A couple of questions:
- do the Death riders still have FNP 6+ or is it 5+ like the new death rider company commander had?
- can the breaching drill deepstrike?
- you say they now have armywide rule "immune to fear". Really? That would be nice
- is there any reference in the list to flyers (Avenger, thunderbolt)?
- are engineers and centaurs the same as they were and still troops?
Singleton Mosby wrote: - is there any reference in the list to flyers (Avenger, thunderbolt)?
This shouldn't make any difference. DKoK are still part of the IG faction, so you can take any IG flyers you want in your DKoK detachment even if they aren't in the DKoK army list.
- do the Death riders still have FNP 6+ or is it 5+ like the new death rider company commander had?
- can the breaching drill deepstrike?
- you say they now have armywide rule "immune to fear". Really? That would be nice
- is there any reference in the list to flyers (Avenger, thunderbolt)?
- are engineers and centaurs the same as they were and still troops?
- 6+
- yes
- yes (apparently not new)
- No but they are BB with SM and AM - Engineers are Troops, Centaurs are Dedicated Transports (Engineers, Field Artillery, Grenadiers, Quartermaster, Commissar-general, Company Command Squad......but strangely not Heavy Artillery Battery).
I've been scouring the web today trying to find pictures of The Purge and Unending Host formations so I can try the exact rules myself. I recently bought IA13 (special edition) and all three Vraks books. I have a big chaos nurgle army and a big nurgle R&H army built with 100 corrupted krieg troops that I am finishing up, so obviously I'm interested in the new Vraks book...but first I want to test out the two new formations with the rules in front of me to see if it's worth buying the whole big fifth book in my collection just to play with those two formations! Crossing my fingers that something pops up soon now that the book is shipping...would love to do a few practice games. For example, I'm unclear whether The Purge is open to both CSM and R&H separately or if you can mix and match across books in the same formation.
...now that I think about it, I also need to find out if they changed Zhufor for a 4th iteration. Most recent version was the 2013 apoc book. I spent a lot of time on my nurgle Zhuor conversion (used the typhus model).
Thanks for the fresh info Baragash! The new detachments are definitely á la Krieg! The DR detachment is a little underwhelming, I was hoping for more. The Gorgon detachment looks awesome, if not hideously expensive (maybe I'm wrong). If you ask me, these detachments look better themed to the Assault Brigade list from IA12, but I suppose they fit the Vraks fluff too.
Baragash wrote: Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.
I'm a bit confused how they cause Fear. Do they have to charge the same unit or can multiple units be charged? e.g. if two DR squads charge two different enemy units in the same assault phase do they both cause fear?
What makes the DRCCS Colonel special? I hope he can roll different warlord traits and issue different orders then the regular CCS (being able to Outflank DRs would be a nice trait )
Baragash wrote: Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.
I wonder if the Gorgon stats are changed from IA1:2ed? If not, that is still one hell of an expensive ferry boat. Furthermore, unless point costs have changed from the previous DKK siege list, a bare-bones Gorgon detachment would cost ~700 points and achieve little to nothing! Maybe I'm missing something.
On another note, I wonder if the LRBT stats correspond with Codex:AM now? If so, this would be good news for future versions IA1 and IA12.
Crabbit wrote: I'm curious to know what the new DKK battle-forged detachments are. Can someone provide a general idea what the composition/rules are for these two detachments? Even better would be a review of the whole DKK list!
I'm not an IG or DKoK player so I don't think I have the knowledge to review the list. The Hades Drill is still a DT, and is now a MC not a vehicle. The list still has traditional HS stuff in the Elites slots (Rapiers, Field Artillery, Hydra platforms. Commissaar-general is a HQ choice. CCS has option for MoO and OotF.
Senior Officer orders: Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight.
Junior Officer orders: Dig In, First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, Clear the Trenches.
Warlord Traits:
12" +1 combat result
6" Twin-link one Ordnance weapon
Fearless & FNP (6+) whilst in fortification or getting cover from a defence line
May choose to use Night Fighting
6" Preferred Enemy (Infantry) in own deployment zone
Shatter Defences vs one piece of terrain in enemy deployment zone
Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.
Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So what's the difference for the Alpha Legion dude, and what's the Purge Detachment do?
The CSM characters are HQ choices only for CSM.
Pretty similar. Chaos Lord with T5, 5++. Combi-melta, Dark Blade (+2S, AP3, Rending). VotLW, Counter-attack, squad gains CA too. Warlord trait allows him to choose board edge but sacrifice first turn, also re-roll seize.
The Purge: 1HQ & 2EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 8TR, 4EL, 4HS, 1LoW, 1 Fortification. Can be Chaos Renegades or Chaos Space Marines. Marks and Devotions can only be Nurgle or nothing. Blast Barrages stay in player until start of firer's next turn and count as dangerous terrain. Flamers, heavy flamers and missile launchers can be chemical, templates get Shred and Gets Hot, Missiles are small blast, Shred and Gets Hot.
WOW, The Purge is crazy good. You get your Plague Marines without even needing the Nurgle Lord, and everything just becomes more awesome. I'll definitely have to get some scans of that, if someone would be kind enough to provide them haha.
Crabbit wrote: I'm curious to know what the new DKK battle-forged detachments are. Can someone provide a general idea what the composition/rules are for these two detachments? Even better would be a review of the whole DKK list!
I'm not an IG or DKoK player so I don't think I have the knowledge to review the list. The Hades Drill is still a DT, and is now a MC not a vehicle. The list still has traditional HS stuff in the Elites slots (Rapiers, Field Artillery, Hydra platforms. Commissaar-general is a HQ choice. CCS has option for MoO and OotF.
Senior Officer orders: Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight.
Junior Officer orders: Dig In, First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, Clear the Trenches.
Warlord Traits:
12" +1 combat result
6" Twin-link one Ordnance weapon
Fearless & FNP (6+) whilst in fortification or getting cover from a defence line
May choose to use Night Fighting
6" Preferred Enemy (Infantry) in own deployment zone
Shatter Defences vs one piece of terrain in enemy deployment zone
Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.
Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So what's the difference for the Alpha Legion dude, and what's the Purge Detachment do?
The CSM characters are HQ choices only for CSM.
Pretty similar. Chaos Lord with T5, 5++. Combi-melta, Dark Blade (+2S, AP3, Rending). VotLW, Counter-attack, squad gains CA too. Warlord trait allows him to choose board edge but sacrifice first turn, also re-roll seize.
The Purge: 1HQ & 2EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 8TR, 4EL, 4HS, 1LoW, 1 Fortification. Can be Chaos Renegades or Chaos Space Marines. Marks and Devotions can only be Nurgle or nothing. Blast Barrages stay in player until start of firer's next turn and count as dangerous terrain. Flamers, heavy flamers and missile launchers can be chemical, templates get Shred and Gets Hot, Missiles are small blast, Shred and Gets Hot.
WOW, The Purge is crazy good. You get your Plague Marines without even needing the Nurgle Lord, and everything just becomes more awesome. I'll definitely have to get some scans of that, if someone would be kind enough to provide them haha.
Same :-/ I've been dying to see the two formations this whole weekend, since it's a perfect fit for the Nurgle CSM/R&H force I have spent the last two years of my life building...
If you're so eager to use them then why not buy the book instead of waiting for someone to pirate it for you? It's a win/win situation, you get your rules as soon as possible and you get to do the right thing as a nice bonus.
Crabbit wrote: I'm a bit confused how they cause Fear. Do they have to charge the same unit or can multiple units be charged? e.g. if two DR squads charge two different enemy units in the same assault phase do they both cause fear?
Same unit IIRC.
Crabbit wrote: What makes the DRCCS Colonel special? I hope he can roll different warlord traits and issue different orders then the regular CCS (being able to Outflank DRs would be a nice trait )
Colonel has better stats and is a Senior Officer versus the CCS being a Junior Officer, which means different orders (see an earlier post). Only one set of WTs.
Crabbit wrote: I wonder if the Gorgon stats are changed from IA1:2ed? If not, that is still one hell of an expensive ferry boat. Furthermore, unless point costs have changed from the previous DKK siege list, a bare-bones Gorgon detachment would cost ~700 points and achieve little to nothing! Maybe I'm missing something.
Most of the LoW (I think all bar the Macharius) are referenced to the most recent IAApoc book rather than printing their rules, I don't recall the Gorgon stats being in this book.
On another note, I wonder if the LRBT stats correspond with Codex:AM now? If so, this would be good news for future versions IA1 and IA12.
I don't have the AM book yet so I can't check, sorry (well I could check them against IA13 when I'm at home I suppose).
- is the leman russ conqueror "fast"?
- How many men has the grenadier's squad? Minimum of 5 or always 10?
- can the platoon infantry squads be combined like in the AM codex?
- Are the leman russ point costs cheaper than these http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/dkksiegelist.pdf? - Is there any relic?
- Is the storm chimera in?
I'll name my firstborn after you if you can tell us what units have had their points cost changed (compared to the Siege Regiment pdf two posts above). As of now though, it seems that DKoK is still quite bad.
Crabbit wrote: I'm curious to know what the new DKK battle-forged detachments are. Can someone provide a general idea what the composition/rules are for these two detachments? Even better would be a review of the whole DKK list!
I'm not an IG or DKoK player so I don't think I have the knowledge to review the list. The Hades Drill is still a DT, and is now a MC not a vehicle. The list still has traditional HS stuff in the Elites slots (Rapiers, Field Artillery, Hydra platforms. Commissaar-general is a HQ choice. CCS has option for MoO and OotF.
Senior Officer orders: Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight.
Junior Officer orders: Dig In, First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire, Clear the Trenches.
Warlord Traits:
12" +1 combat result
6" Twin-link one Ordnance weapon
Fearless & FNP (6+) whilst in fortification or getting cover from a defence line
May choose to use Night Fighting
6" Preferred Enemy (Infantry) in own deployment zone
Shatter Defences vs one piece of terrain in enemy deployment zone
Death Rider Battle-Forged Detachment: 1HQ & 2FA compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 1LoW, 2TR, 4EL, 4FA, 4HS. Must be all DKoK faction, comp HQ must be Death Rider CCS, comp FA must be DRs. ObSec. When you charge 2+ DR or DRCS or DRCCS into a unit in the same turn they all........................cause Fear! DRCCS is a DRCS with a Colonel upgrade who must be the Warlord.
Gorgon Assault Squadron: 1HQ, 1LoW, 1TR & 1EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 9TR, 2EL, 2FA, 2HS, 2LoW. Must all be DKoK faction. All LoW must be Gorgons, all Gorgons must have at least 1 squad in at the start. ObSec. As long as a Gorgon has at least one DKoK faction unit inside gains IWND. DKoKs that disembark from a Gorgon and assault in the same turn get Furious Charge.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So what's the difference for the Alpha Legion dude, and what's the Purge Detachment do?
The CSM characters are HQ choices only for CSM.
Pretty similar. Chaos Lord with T5, 5++. Combi-melta, Dark Blade (+2S, AP3, Rending). VotLW, Counter-attack, squad gains CA too. Warlord trait allows him to choose board edge but sacrifice first turn, also re-roll seize.
The Purge: 1HQ & 2EL compulsory. Additional 1HQ, 8TR, 4EL, 4HS, 1LoW, 1 Fortification. Can be Chaos Renegades or Chaos Space Marines. Marks and Devotions can only be Nurgle or nothing. Blast Barrages stay in player until start of firer's next turn and count as dangerous terrain. Flamers, heavy flamers and missile launchers can be chemical, templates get Shred and Gets Hot, Missiles are small blast, Shred and Gets Hot.
WOW, The Purge is crazy good. You get your Plague Marines without even needing the Nurgle Lord, and everything just becomes more awesome. I'll definitely have to get some scans of that, if someone would be kind enough to provide them haha.
Same :-/ I've been dying to see the two formations this whole weekend, since it's a perfect fit for the Nurgle CSM/R&H force I have spent the last two years of my life building...
While it sucks there's no Fast Attack slot, having plenty of Elite Slots makes up for it. Without needing the Nurgle Lord, I can be free to just use a MoN Warpsmith, and get three Sicarans with an Obliterators retinue, and spend the rest of the Elite slots on plausible AA and toys.
Not like Heldrakes were reliable AA anyway...
Aenarian wrote: I'll name my firstborn after you if you can tell us what units have had their points cost changed (compared to the Siege Regiment pdf two posts above). As of now though, it seems that DKoK is still quite bad.
Quite bad? I have a 2 to 1 winratio with the DKoK.
Peregrine wrote: If you're so eager to use them then why not buy the book instead of waiting for someone to pirate it for you? It's a win/win situation, you get your rules as soon as possible and you get to do the right thing as a nice bonus.
I don't know who you were talking to specifically, but I already spoke to this in my earlier posts.
Crabbit wrote: I'm a bit confused how they cause Fear. Do they have to charge the same unit or can multiple units be charged? e.g. if two DR squads charge two different enemy units in the same assault phase do they both cause fear?
Same unit IIRC.
Hmm... that seems overkill. I guess if you are charging huge blobs or MCs it is a bonus.
Crabbit wrote: What makes the DRCCS Colonel special? I hope he can roll different warlord traits and issue different orders then the regular CCS (being able to Outflank DRs would be a nice trait )
Colonel has better stats and is a Senior Officer versus the CCS being a Junior Officer, which means different orders (see an earlier post). Only one set of WTs.
Thanks for the clarification. It would have been nice if they distinguished him from the regular foot CCS, especially if he has to be taken as your warlord.
Crabbit wrote: I wonder if the Gorgon stats are changed from IA1:2ed? If not, that is still one hell of an expensive ferry boat. Furthermore, unless point costs have changed from the previous DKK siege list, a bare-bones Gorgon detachment would cost ~700 points and achieve little to nothing! Maybe I'm missing something.
Most of the LoW (I think all bar the Macharius) are referenced to the most recent IAApoc book rather than printing their rules, I don't recall the Gorgon stats being in this book.
If that is the case, the Gorgon detachment is still very expensive for what it will achieve. On the other hand, it sure is mega-fluffy and a maxed out detachment would look awesome on a table!
On another note, I wonder if the LRBT stats correspond with Codex:AM now? If so, this would be good news for future versions IA1 and IA12.
I don't have the AM book yet so I can't check, sorry (well I could check them against IA13 when I'm at home I suppose).
I have not seen IA13, but I would guess renegades pay similar points for their LRBTs compared to AM. If you have a chance, this would be a useful comparison. Without giving out specifics, AMLRBT point costs look something like this: Erad < Exter < Vanq < Pun < LRBT < Exec < Demo.
Aenarian wrote: I'll name my firstborn after you if you can tell us what units have had their points cost changed (compared to the Siege Regiment pdf two posts above). As of now though, it seems that DKoK is still quite bad.
Quite bad? I have a 2 to 1 winratio with the DKoK.
I'll explain my point of view if you explain yours, alright?
First of all, not everything in the armylist(s) are bad. The Death Korps have some really good units, such as the Laser Destroyers and Heavy/Field Artillery Batteries. These can definitely improve whatever list you are using if you take enough of them, but unless you spam your best options, what else can you bring? Very little.
The special rules, i.e. WS4, immunity to fear, no leadership tests for suffering shooting casualties or the can always rally normally if within 6" of an officer are all somewhat decent, but you lose combined squads and almost all good sources of heavy weapons paying a premium for the units. Your orders are arguably worse, especially as you lose some really good ones (such as Fire on my Target), and gain leadership (which you gain even less out of compared to normal AM) and assault orders. The latter ones might be cool if you could actually do something, but you are still guardsmen, but you still can't beat anything in close combat., especially as you can't get priests, combined squads etc. So you basically either lose and get swept or you win and the enemy assault units stay in combat while you slowly grind eachother down. The warlord traits are in my opinion also worse than the AM ones, and none of them are actually cool. Where are the order improvements, the extra turn for the warlord and his unit or the 5+ to gain a VP if a unit is destroyed near your warlord?
And then we have the units. Infantry Squads cost 20 points more for the special rules I mentioned above, as well as Krak Grenades (which I've never seen taken on any other unit who had to pay for it), while losing a large part of the their firepower (no heavy weapons) and close combat bonuses (no priests, no combined squads). The same goes for platoon command squads, which are also 20 points more than the equivalent AM-unit which also loses the ability to take heavy weapons as well as only being able to take 2 special ones. The Combat Engineers are 9 points (full squad) for a T3 4+ unit with shotguns, one special weapon, one gimmicky 'heavy' and a transport which will deep strike and kill itself as well as the attached units whenever it mishaps. Remember that deep striking close to the enemy is also encouraged as you are "close-combat" guardsmen. Some units such as the Hellhound and all of its variants, and most of the Leman Russes are as lackluster in this army list as in Codex: Astra Militarum. Grenadiers costs the same as Tempestus Scions but you have no way of getting them into the thick of the fighting apart from using Centaurs.
Few units are actually better than their counterparts in the main Codex, one being Death Riders, but you can still reach the conclusion that anything you can do, Astra Militarum can do better. They can actually make decent close combat squads (30-50 FEARLESS soldiers with priest buffs), have superior shooting capabilites and can take almost all of your toys (Artillery Batteries, Rapiers...) while losing very little of value. You are made out as a close combat horde army, but you can't actually do any damage. You gain a ton of leadership buffs, but I've never found myself needing them and when I do, it's when I've lost an assault and then we're talking about a -5 modifier. You can mass artillery, but so can Astra MIlitarum and they actually make even better use of them (Ignore Cover Earthshakers? Yes please!).
And then we have this new update. What I've seen so far doesn't fill me with hope. Gorgons are definitely not good, as you pay 400 points for something with less firepower than two Wyverns and the transport capacity of 48 Chimeras. Yes its open-topped so you can charge, but you can still only disembark two units (which means 20 men max unless we can combine squads now) a turn and once it goes boom, it basically kills whatever it's transporting. The Death Rider detachments seems fun but Fear is considered one of the most pointless rules in the entire game.
Believe me, I want it to be good. I want cheaper infantry, I want more and better orders and I want cooler Warlord Traits. But what I'm seeing is basically the 6th edition PDF with some adjusted points cost (Leman Russes etc.) while solving none of the issues.
Aenarian wrote: Infantry Squads cost 20 points more for the special rules I mentioned above
Is this confirmed? If so, that's pretty disappointing. The IA12 list increased platoon squads to 70 points because of the special rule that lets them respawn when they die, they should only be 60 points without it.
The Combat Engineers are 9 points (full squad) for a T3 4+ unit with shotguns, one special weapon, one gimmicky 'heavy' and a transport which will deep strike and kill itself as well as the attached units whenever it mishaps.
Based on what has been said so far the drill is now much more powerful. You're getting D6+2 "power fist" hits as HOW, plus whatever you can do with your shooting. Keep it cheap and that's not bad.
and can take almost all of your toys (Artillery Batteries, Rapiers...) while losing very little of value.
Don't underestimate the value of not taking morale tests from casualties. Codex IG armies have to pay a commissar tax to use these units efficiently, otherwise you're one roll of an 8+ away from losing an expensive unit.
The Death Rider detachments seems fun but Fear is considered one of the most pointless rules in the entire game.
So pretend it doesn't exist. The real value is the "rough riders as troops" ability we've been begging for ever since 5th edition.
Peregrine wrote: If you're so eager to use them then why not buy the book instead of waiting for someone to pirate it for you? It's a win/win situation, you get your rules as soon as possible and you get to do the right thing as a nice bonus.
If I like something, I always buy it. I tested various IA12 and 13 stuff before I committed merely because this hobby sucks when you're a part time worker and full time student. I always try to give FW my money when I decide they deserve it, trust me.
Aenarian wrote: Infantry Squads cost 20 points more for the special rules I mentioned above
Is this confirmed? If so, that's pretty disappointing. The IA12 list increased platoon squads to 70 points because of the special rule that lets them respawn when they die, they should only be 60 points without it.
Nah, I was talking about the current rules.
But I'll concede the other points, apart from the fact that as you previously said, the drill will most likely suffer from majority toughness. Codex: AM also has a warlord trait to diminish shooting morale (as you are well aware), but I agree that having it on every unit is better.
Edit: I'll also note that it seems like that we won't get any relics this time as well. Boo.
Aenarian wrote: Infantry Squads cost 20 points more for the special rules I mentioned above
Is this confirmed? If so, that's pretty disappointing. The IA12 list increased platoon squads to 70 points because of the special rule that lets them respawn when they die, they should only be 60 points without it.
They've always been 20pts more expensive unfortunately IIRC barring the 5E PDF list. They were 20pts more in the 4E list as well.
Given that they've always lacked the ability to take heavy weapons, and they can't blob up (I'm assuming they haven't changed that?), I don't see where they're worth any more than normal guardsmen at 50pts.
Why would they pay for the Forlorn Hope rule if they cannot use it below 1500 points anyway? I thought the disadvantage (the objective) was meant to offset any potential gain.
Aenarian wrote: I'll name my firstborn after you if you can tell us what units have had their points cost changed (compared to the Siege Regiment pdf two posts above). As of now though, it seems that DKoK is still quite bad.
Quite bad? I have a 2 to 1 winratio with the DKoK.
I'll explain my point of view if you explain yours, alright?
OK, I can see where you're coming from with your arguments. I however use the siege list in an altogether different way then you apparently do.
My core unit of troops is the following: 5 engineers in a centaur with a melta/plasma and a heavy flamer.
This unit of just over 100 points looks cute on the table but can take on very much an opponent throws at it. I usually run three or four of these units and they almost always get the job done reliably. A centaur seems flimsy, but it is fast and an ideal firering-platform. And when it explodes your guys won't run away and shake off most of the wounds with their 4+ armour. These chaps run around the battlefield from cover to cover, park their centaur in front of an enemy unit and lay down their heavy flamer, followed by the shotguns and melta/plasma. Occasionally they also leave their centaurs for some close-combat at which they are not half-bad. And of course these chaps being objective secured is a nice thing as well. The only thing which they can't take on by themselves are MCs.
Their grenadier cousin can be fun against marines, especially combined with Death riders. 5 guys in a centaur doesn't sound like a lot but 3 hot-shot lasguns and two plasmaguns can be a pain-in-the-ass for any marine unit.
That being said, I don't use the regular infantry squads often since they do not oblige with my playing style (fast and furious) and underperform whenever I use them. This is why I do not rely on AM: orders at all. I hardly ever use them to be fair. For heavy weapons I rely on my Rapiers, Thudd guns and Russ', which are fare more effective then the occasional las-/auto-cannon. Which is a shame btw since I have a 12 heavy weapon teams. But hey, I don't play a gunline army anymore, so they're obsolete.
Other units I use are a Rapier battery, two thudd-guns, some Russ' (depending on the opponent I face), Cyclops-demo-vehicles and Death riders (2 or 3 squads of 5). The good thing about it is that almost every opponent isn't frightened about what he sees on the opposite side of the table but all of these units can be very painfull when used correctly. That being said, I've a big problem when we play "Kill-points". So yeah, on the face of it we will almost play a different army from the exact same list.
Singleton Mosby wrote: This unit of just over 100 points looks cute on the table but can take on very much an opponent throws at it. I usually run three or four of these units and they almost always get the job done reliably. A centaur seems flimsy, but it is fast and an ideal firering-platform. And when it explodes your guys won't run away and shake off most of the wounds with their 4+ armour. These chaps run around the battlefield from cover to cover, park their centaur in front of an enemy unit and lay down their heavy flamer, followed by the shotguns and melta/plasma. Occasionally they also leave their centaurs for some close-combat at which they are not half-bad. And of course these chaps being objective secured is a nice thing as well. The only thing which they can't take on by themselves are MCs.
Now compare them to codex melta/plasma vets and cry. The new Hades drill might change this, but otherwise engineers are pretty weak.
Their grenadier cousin can be fun against marines, especially combined with Death riders. 5 guys in a centaur doesn't sound like a lot but 3 hot-shot lasguns and two plasmaguns can be a pain-in-the-ass for any marine unit.
That might have been an argument before the current IG codex, but now that codex storm troopers are the same cost the grenadiers suck. The only ones that are worth it are the IA12 version since they're troops, and even then it's kind of questionable.
You all underestimate the Centaur. It is a fast, open-topped dedicated transport. And very small so you can hide it anywhere to get some coversaves. What you want more?
Singleton Mosby wrote: You all underestimate the Centaur. It is a fast, open-topped dedicated transport. And very small so you can hide it anywhere to get some coversaves.
It's also very fragile and gets hardly any benefit from being fast since it has no (significant) guns. And most of the time it gets no benefit from being open-topped because you only have one gun worth shooting out of it. Yeah, it's a tiny model, but hiding it behind cover usually means not shooting with its passengers, making it a 100+ point paperweight.
What you want more?
AV 12, 3 HP, useful guns, and useful troops to put inside it. AKA a Chimera with melta/plasma vets.
So to make the siege list work you circumvent the whole point of the siege list? Seems pretty damning to me. TBH I found both this book and IA13 to be quite poor from a rules execution point of view and I'm seriously questioning spending any more money on FW40k stuff (and I own all the books apart from the Tyranid 2nd Ed).
I'm having to work late at the moment so it may be later in the week that I get to address the questions people have asked, but I will get there.
FYI for Renegade players: Sabres are gone, bad luck if you bought those with the original list. Khornegor beastmen are gone, bad luck if you converted some models for that but you can use them as mutants I guess (TBH Khorne got the short end of the stick compared to Nurgle). Priests are gone, bad luck if you bought those, though I guess you could use them as Demagogues.
Curious if there are any inquisition based formations? I'm trying real hard to dig my codex inquisition out of the gutter and into a competitive environment.
sudojoe wrote: Curious if there are any inquisition based formations? I'm trying real hard to dig my codex inquisition out of the gutter and into a competitive environment.
No.
I will try and get round to everyone's questions, in addition to my normal job I also have two others that I do for my own amusement/out of the goodness of my heart, I'm just a bit pressed for time right now (and also the baby is teething so "sleep" is currently just a word in the dictionary). #firstworldproblems
sudojoe wrote: Curious if there are any inquisition based formations? I'm trying real hard to dig my codex inquisition out of the gutter and into a competitive environment.
No.
I will try and get round to everyone's questions, in addition to my normal job I also have two others that I do for my own amusement/out of the goodness of my heart, I'm just a bit pressed for time right now (and also the baby is teething so "sleep" is currently just a word in the dictionary). #firstworldproblems
Hah, don't worry. We're just eager to know if our favourite armies have been improved or nerfed. I'm sure we'll get more info from less reputable sources in the coming weeks anyway, so don't stress yourself out. I won't buy it until I know more about the Siege Regiment anyway.
I'm also curious why Hector Rex still has WS4. I figure that a great hero of the imperium would have WS5, especially considering that plenty of other humans with WS5 exists.
Someone over at 4chan answered a few questions, so I'll just paste them here. I also included a few notes of my own, which the author confirmed (e.g. the Conqueror Cannon, Hydra targeting system).
Spoiler:
ALLIES FOR DEATH KORPS: Battle Brothers: Imp Guard Elysian D-99 Space Marines, Space Wolves Sisters of Battle Imperial Knights Inquisition Allies of Convenience: Grey Knights Blood Angels, Dark Angels All others: Come the Apocolypse
WARGEAR: Acid Gas Bombs: Unusual, Range 8", StrX, AP6, Poisoned 4+, Ignores Covers, Assault 1, Blast
Battle Scope: Night Vision for unit
Mole Launcher: 8-24" Range, Str5, AP5, Heavy 1, Blade, Subterranean Barrage (Indirect only, lowest AV always), Strikedown
Vox is same as IG dex
Vehicle gear is Vehicle Gear
Death Korps: WS 4 Goodness, Immune to Fear, don't take Morale check for 25% casualties in Shooting/Movement phases.
Iron Discipline: Officers only, any unit within 6" of any Krieg Officer can regroup at unmodified Leadership.
NEW ORDERS (or old ones) SENIOR OFFICER ORDERS: Duty unto Death: Reroll failed Leadership checks until next controlling player Shooting Phase, if you get double 1's the unit is Fearless instead.
Bring it Down, Get Back into the Fight.
JUNIOR OFFICER ORDERS: Dig In: +1 Cover save granted by terrain until next turn (not fortification), minimum 6+, can't run or charge.
First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire
Clear the Trenches: Lasguns are Assault 2, Range 12". Unit also gets Move Through Cover.
WARLORD TRAITS:
1. UNFLINCHING DEFENSE: +1 to Combat Resolution for Assaults in their own Deployment Zone 2. SHATTERING BOMBARDMENT: Select a weapon with 6" of the Warlord each shooting phase that has Ordnance. It's Twin-Linked. 3. VICTORY OR DEATH: Feel no Pain 6+ and Fearless while in cover in Fortifications or a Defense Line for Warlord and Unit. 4. SMOKE BARRAGE: Night Fighting if the Krieg Player wishes. 5. MARTYR'S DEFENSE: Warlord and Death Korps units within 6" get PE (Infantry) while in friendly deployment zone. 6. SIEGE MASTER: Select a piece of terrain in the enemy deployment zone (not fortification). It's cover save is at -1.
Master of Ordnance and Officer of the Fleet same as IG book, as far as abilities go. They are BS4 and 20 Points each, though. I don't recall if they are BS4 in the IG book.
Commisar-general has same Summary Execution as IG Commisars now.
Also of note: NO Astropath available to DK Command Squads.
Commisar-general and DK Quartermaster both have Chain of Command, can't be Warlord if you have a model with the Senior Officer rule.
Hydra lost Auto-targeting. [NOTE: SECOND TO LAST LINE]
Move Through Cover Extremely Bulky Hammer of Wrath Tunneling (If at least one model has this rule, the unit may chose move through the ground in the Movement or Assault Phase. If not, move/charge as normal.) -TUNNELING: MOVEMENT PHASE: Unit may move up to 12" in any direction, ignoring terrain or models it would pass though during that move. Final position cannot be within impassible terrain or 2" of an enemy model. The unit gains a 4+ invul save until the Controlling Player's next Movement Phase, and may not charge or run that turn. -TUNNELING: ASSAULT PHASE: When charging a unit with Tunelling, roll an additional d6 but use the lowest dice to determine final result. Over-watch may not be fired and the unit ignores all terrain/battlefield effects and counts as having Assault Grenades. The Hades Breaching Drill also makes d6+2 HoW hits using the Melta-cutter profile if it used the Tunneling Assault move. If the drill charges a building/fortification, roll a d6 for each enemy model in the building. On a 4+. they take a Str 4 AP2 Hit. - Subterranean Assault (Must Start in reserves, is attached to unit who bought it I think, deploys via Deep Strike. On turn it Deep Strikes, gains a 4+ invul save) Specialist Equipment (Attached to DK Engineer unit, counts as casualty but not additional VP, if all the Engineers die it goes too.)
Minor changes: Vehicles that got prices lowered in the IG book also got them lowered here.
The Conqueror is 115 points. Fast AV14? Jesus Christ how Horrifying. [NOTE: S8 AP3 heavy 1, small blast], also has Co-axial Storm Bolter
The Siege List lost the Navy Squadrons. Feels bad.
OTHER WEAPON CHANGES (because they got removed from the main IG dex, forgeworld said feth it apparently)
COLOSSUS: STRENGTH 8, AP 3, LARGE BLAST, IGNORES COVER, PINNING
WAIT I LIED, THE HYDRA STILL HAS AUTO-TARGETING. Goodbye Jink Saves.
APPARENTLY THE MELTA-CUTTER is Str: User, AP 1, Melee, Shred, Armourbane. So those Hammer of Wrath Hits reroll.
So, since his "minor changes" does not include points drop for anything else, it seems that we're stuck with 7 points guardsmen and 12 points grenadiers, but this is only me guessing. Sigh, the Renegades list looks so much more appealing, especially considering all their fancy tactics and detachments. And what we do we get? A fluffy but pretty bad Death Rider one and another one which basically forces you to use Gorgons. Hooray.
I guess the Unending Host requires a large amount of infantry, so it would be unfeasible for anyone without a large collection of renegades, but it still has a neat special rule. The same goes with The Purge. I personally probably wouldn't use Unending Host due to the slot limitations, but the other one looks cool.
Don't misinterpret my whining, I like the fluffiness of both Krieg formations as well as the army itself, but it's simply not enough. The Death Riders Formation are nice if you wanted to have a mounted CCS, but the Gorgon one? Gorgons are already weak, especially for DKoK as we lack Combined Squads, but they are far too expensive for a hard to destroy transport without any firepower of note when you consider what kind of units will ride in them. Renegades get cool new Demagogues and is from what I've seen a decent list, but Krieg still suffers from basic infantry that is overcosted by 10-20 points, boring warlord traits and perhaps most of all, no way to build a competitive army that adheres to its own lore. Yes, you can spam artillery and they would probably win the fight for you, but massed infantry will become a liability. As someone said, the attrition focused army simply cannot win a battle of attrition because they are so few in numbers.
But hey, maybe the Heavy Weapons in troops aren't paying a fething tax for being troops anymore. The Emperor knows that the unit needs it since nobody will ever take HWT in a HS when they can get Earthshaker Carriages.
The rules for the new Hades breaching drill sound kinda strong. I guess it makes the engineers a powerful assault unit. And the 4++ is nice as well.
Are you sure btw the conqueror is a fast tank now? Dropping the lumbering behemoth rule was one thing, but being a fast vehicle type would make it a nice unit.
The Conqueror is fast in IA13, so I don't see why it wouldn't be in Vraks. I wonder if the Drill is all that good though, as it suffers from certain rules. You roll against majority weapon skill, so it'll be able to defend itself, but you also roll against majority toughness, so in reality it would be T3 during combat. It'll probably mash a few enemies with S8, Ap1 and shred, but can the unit last?
The drill is only good if you get the charge against small elite units and vehicles. But against those the thing is brutal, its HoW attacks decimating most of the things in this game on average.
I've spent the last few months compiling rules questions to email Forgeworld regarding IA13 (and now the Vraks book). I am up to 13 questions already. If anyone has any questions to add before I send the email off tonight, feel free to add them here.
I had a realization today; people have mentioned Conquerers being 115 points and fast, with their improved main gun (hallelujeah) but what about the Leman Russ Annihilator? It was the first "budget" russ, but now it's actually more expensive than several,better variants. I'm curious to see if it's been changed in Vraks.
Well compared to the Siege Army list you can still download from the site, there aren't a lot of changes really. I suppose we should expect the Siege Army list PDF to be taken down pretty soon.
Heavy Weapon Squads as tropps are now 60 pts each.
They've completely rewritten the Hades Breaching Drill. It's now Infantry with 3 wounds, toughness 7 and 3+ save. It's also a lot more reliable when it Deep Strikes and it may continue to tunnel after it has been deployed from reserves. I think it has been improved considerably, mostly because it appears to have been made more reliable (and less likely to get lost). The Hades no longer arrive by template and doesn't tankshock or displace enemy models, and when it assaults, the Hades makes D6+2 Hammer of Wrath attacks.
They've included a list of Lords of War tanks and aircraft available to a Siege army, and reprinted the profiles for the various versions of the Macharius heavy tank for some reason. The rules for the Gorgon are not included, even though it's used in the "Krieg Gorgon Assault Squadron - Battle-Forged Detachment".
The "Imperial Navy Air Support Squadron" is absent. Which means you will need IA-Aeronautica I suppose.
You also have access to two battle-forged detachments, the "Krieg Death Rider Squadron" and "Krieg Gorgon Assault Squadron". I think they've already been described fairly accurately in this forum. The Gorgon Assault Squadron lets you have 1-3 Lords of War, all of which need to be Gorgons.
Overall the Warlord traits and the orders are neat, maybe a little underwhelming. FW has adjusted the costs of Battletanks according to the changes introduced by AMIG last year, but commissars are still 30 pts.
Many of the options available in the Assault Brigade list, were not carried over to the Siege Regiment list. Assault Brigade has access to a variety of regimental standards, which I was hoping they would include in the Siege list. The Carcass Munitions from IA12 weren't reused either. In short, Carcass shots made shotguns and heavy mortars Shred and Gets Hot.
Have the heavy weapons/power weapons (incl. power fists) upgrade costs been increased?
What are the stats of the Death Rider Company Commander, and is he a X points mandatory upgrade required for the Death Rider Detachment, or simply a bonus?
MajorStoffer wrote: I had a realization today; people have mentioned Conquerers being 115 points and fast, with their improved main gun (hallelujeah) but what about the Leman Russ Annihilator? It was the first "budget" russ, but now it's actually more expensive than several,better variants. I'm curious to see if it's been changed in Vraks.
The Annihilator is still 150. The Conqueror is 115 as you said. In the new Vraks book, there's no mentioning of Executioner Plasma Cannon getting hot. At 170 pts, the Demolisher is now the most expensive battletank. The Vanquisher is only 135 (the co-axial heavy stubber is still +15 pts).
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Aenarian wrote: Have the heavy weapons/power weapons (incl. power fists) upgrade costs been increased?
What are the stats of the Death Rider Company Commander, and is he a X points mandatory upgrade required for the Death Rider Detachment, or simply a bonus?
Appreciate all your help!
Compared to the Siege List PDF, the cost of heavy weapon squads as part of platoons have been reduced to 60 pts (in the PDF they're listed at 75 pts.).
All other costs are the same as in the downloadable Siege list. Heavy weapons are only available for the Company Command Squad (heavy bolter, autocannon, twin-linked heavy stubber), Grenadiers (heavy flamer), Engineers (heavy flamer, mole launcher), Heavy Weapons Sqd. The Heavy Weapons Sqd can be picked as either Troops or Heavy Support.
MajorStoffer wrote: I had a realization today; people have mentioned Conquerers being 115 points and fast, with their improved main gun (hallelujeah) but what about the Leman Russ Annihilator? It was the first "budget" russ, but now it's actually more expensive than several,better variants. I'm curious to see if it's been changed in Vraks.
They've seemed intent on messing the Annihilator up for years. They initially debuted it at 130pts, but in every list they made it available in they printed it at 150pts, reprinted it again at 130pts in its own entry, then kept making it 150pts in every list they made it available in.
I think there's a good amount of laziness going on there with bad copy-pasitng. Much like with the Rapier Laser Destroyer, I emailed them about if it should be AP1 or AP2 as it appears as AP1 in some books and AP2 in other books, and they're response was "well....we don't really have a clarification, we just use whatever the book says in the office". I'm sitting here thinking "...didn't your office *write* this stuff?"
Opera wrote: They don't even sell the Conqueror turret anymore but have released two books recently with updated rules...
They've stopped selling Hydras (both tanks and platforms) as well, but they're still included in the new Vraks book. Which is great for the people who bought them while they were still around, and not so great for the rest of us. If I want to use a Hydra platform, how am I supposed to represent it on the battlefield?
It's a pity really, it would be great if they had some consistency, especially considering that the last book is only a few months old and had the Annihilator at 130 (with BS3).
I hope that the stats are consistent within the book at least, so we don't have DKoK Rapiers with AP2 and Heretic Rapiers with AP1.
Anyway, to venture a little off topic, I have ~£250 to spend on new units for my DKoK army. Any recommendations on what I should buy?
Ratius wrote: Are all of the IA books up to date with 7th now barring Mymeara, Badab and Kastrel?
IA1 2E has been updated for post 5E vehicle mechanics, but is now in dire need of an update following the 6E "AM" book release, so it needs an update too as well despite being only being just over two years old.
Opera wrote: They don't even sell the Conqueror turret anymore but have released two books recently with updated rules...
Interestingly enough I actually have one of these and I got tired of it gathering dust so i converted it to a Vanquisher! Now I may have to move it back...
Crabbit wrote: Thanks Zingraff! If you feel up to it, a detailed review of the new DKK siege list or comparison to the old pdf siege list would be awesome!
Aenarian wrote: What are the stats of the Death Rider Company Commander, and is he a X points mandatory upgrade required for the Death Rider Detachment, or simply a bonus?
WS 5/BS 4/S 3/T 3/W 4/I 3/A 3/LD 9/SV 4+, senior officer, and FNP 5+. He's a mandatory +50 point upgrade for a death rider command squad if you take the special detachment, and can only be taken in the special detachment.
I don't get the "Guardsmen can't beat anything in close combat" thing. With WS4 on the charge with lasguns as Assault 2 weapons, won't they beat Ork boyz and lesser Tyranids, not to mention Kroot and just about any Tau troops?
WS 5/BS 4/S 3/T 3/W 4/I 3/A 3/LD 9/SV 4+, senior officer, and FNP 5+. He's a mandatory +50 point upgrade for a death rider command squad if you take the special detachment, and can only be taken in the special detachment.
Well, that's nice. I guess I can always invest in Death Riders. Does he come with a lance or simply CCW/Pistol?
Alcibiades wrote: I don't get the "Guardsmen can't beat anything in close combat" thing. With WS4 on the charge with lasguns as Assault 2 weapons, won't they beat Ork boyz and lesser Tyranids, not to mention Kroot and just about any Tau troops?
Well, I guess the last ones are true, but then again, normal guardsmen also beat Tau troops. You can basically only beat orkz if you charge, and the same goes with lesser tyranids. But y'know, a normal IG detachment could handily get one or two priests for their buffs, which would make them even better, because of Zealot, rerolls and other shenanigans.
Alcibiades wrote: I don't get the "Guardsmen can't beat anything in close combat" thing. With WS4 on the charge with lasguns as Assault 2 weapons, won't they beat Ork boyz and lesser Tyranids, not to mention Kroot and just about any Tau troops?
They don't have access to heavy weapons in the Infantry Squad units, they can't combine squads (so no blobs), they're still A1 base with S3 guns, they need to get an order off (on Ld7 or 8) from an accompanying Officer unit within 12" to get the "assault 2" lasguns, and they're 40% more than normal guardsmen. Even with all that, on a charge, the actual assault phase only very slightly favors the DKoK infantry over Slugga Boyz, and only for the first round of combat, and only on a 1 to 1 basis.
They're pretty garbage.
Ratius wrote: Granted but in terms of the "campaign" books?
IA2e was more individual units correct? (a compilation?)
Yeah, it doesn't have a campaign, though it does have the Armoured Battlegroup army list.
Hey, don't forget that we can get Furious Charge if we disembark from Gorgons now! Paying 400 points to grant two squads a turn FC must be worth it, right?
Hey, don't forget that we can get Furious Charge if we disembark from Gorgons now! Paying 400 points to grant two squads a turn FC must be worth it, right?
Hey, don't forget that we can get Furious Charge if we disembark from Gorgons now! Paying 400 points to grant two squads a turn FC must be worth it, right?
WS 5/BS 4/S 3/T 3/W 4/I 3/A 3/LD 9/SV 4+, senior officer, and FNP 5+. He's a mandatory +50 point upgrade for a death rider command squad if you take the special detachment, and can only be taken in the special detachment.
Well, that's nice. I guess I can always invest in Death Riders. Does he come with a lance or simply CCW/Pistol?
The Death Rider has both a lance and CCW/pistol as standard equipment. The lance is used on the first charge and then spent.
The Death Rider has both a lance and CCW/pistol as standard equipment. The lance is used on the first charge and then spent.
Yeah, I was just curious if the mounted Company Commander got it. It wouldn't have been a surprise if he didn't. Good to know they gave him something at least!
Kroot have Ap5 pointy sticks in close combat, so every wound is a dead Kriegsman, Kroot win out slightly in that department (6+ ahoy!) and also have vastly better guns.
Kroot have Ap5 pointy sticks in close combat, so every wound is a dead Kriegsman, Kroot win out slightly in that department (6+ ahoy!) and also have vastly better guns.
Not meaning to belabor the point , but there is a reason that I specified "in close combat on the charge with assault 2 lasguns"
Kroot have Ap5 pointy sticks in close combat, so every wound is a dead Kriegsman, Kroot win out slightly in that department (6+ ahoy!) and also have vastly better guns.
Not meaning to belabor the point , but there is a reason that I specified "in close combat on the charge with assault 2 lasguns"
Aye, there are a few very specific points and scenarios where DKOK will win assaults (assuming you don't kill too many, can't charge and are then shot up and charged yourself, ah the sillyness of such mechanics).
In truth though, the WS4 and, with IA12 who introduced it, Assault 2 Lasguns has more to do with tying the enemy up than actually killing them in assault. WS4 means most enemies who aren't re-rolling to hit are now only hitting 50% of the time, and some things you'll even get to hit back with 3s! Unlikely to wipe much in assault, but more likely to hang around while you shoot other things in their army and hold up dangerous assault units.
Now if only such an endeavour was remotely cost effecient.
Aenarian wrote: Does he come with a lance or simply CCW/Pistol?
Yes. All death riders come with pistol + CCW + lance, and the sergeants (or commander + commissar in command squads) may exchange their pistol and/or CCW for the usual sergeant upgrades.
Imperial Armor 13 and Siege of Vraks: Second Edition Rules Questions
February 2015
Dear Forgeworld,
I am a proud Renegade and Heretics and Chaos Space Marines player who has purchased all of your Vraks books, the IA13 collector’s edition, and the Vraks second edition. However, I have spent the last several months facing many rules problems, typos, and ommissions that have popped up in these publications. I have discussed these problems with other players on major online communities and have compiled the following list of questions, which I hope you will address so that I can share them online. I have heard that you are currently working on FAQs and errata for these books, so I hope that this rather comprehensive list will ensure that you do not miss any problems when you ultimately release the FAQs.
1) The Arch Demagogue devotions state that an Arch Demagogue with a devotion must be the army’s warlord. This creates numerous problems considering that 7th edition allows for armies to contain multiple detachments of the same or different factions. I have heard of several other players who e-mailed Forge World and were told to ignore this requirement, and that any Arch Demagogue may take devotions and doesn’t have to be the Warlord. However, as it stands, the requirement raises the following concerns/questions:
-How does the Arch Demagogue Warlord requirement work when your army contains other characters that must also be the army’s warlord (for example, Abbadon)?
-How does this rule work when the Renegades & Heretics detachment is an Allied Detachment?
-If you take more than one Renegades & Heretics detachment (for example, one Combined Arms and one Formation), with two different Arch Demagogues, do you select among the Arch Demagogues to determine the warlord (as per the Warlord/Primary Detachment selection rules in the main rulebook)?
-Related to the above question and the apparent limitations regarding Warlord/Arch Demagogue requirements, it is hard to believe that Renegades and Heretics players are punished by being the only army/faction in all of Warhammer 40,000 that can only ever field one detachment in an overall army list (which may be comprised of multiple detachments). It would be more simple and convenient to remove the mandatory warlord requirement, instead replacing it with the following errata: “If selecting a Renegades and Heretics detachment as your army’s primary detachment, only the Arch Demagogue may be the Warlord. Any Arch Demagogue devotions or covenants only affect that Arch Demagogue’s own detachment.”
-If Forge World’s preferred solution is to simply remove the mandatory Warlord requirement and even to allow more than one Arch Demagogue per R&H detachment (as has been stated in some FW email responses I have seen shared online), does this mean that a particular R&H detachment may benefit from more than one Arch Demagogue devotion, so long as the player is willing to purchase additional Renegade Command Squads and additional Arch Demagogue devotions? (If yes, this would explain why the Renegade Command Squad is a 1+ entry, since otherwise buying additional Renegade Command Squads would be almost pointless save for the ability to stick an extra command vox net or banner in the squad).
2) The additional model costs seem off for several Renegades & Heretics entries and appear to be copy-pasted incorrectly. For example, on pg. 157 in IA13, the Renegade Marauder Squad costs 55 points base for 5 models – essentially 10 per model and 5 for the included champion upgrade. It therefore naturally costs +10 points for each additional Marauder. However, in some subsequent unit entries in the following pages, the additional model cost stays at +10 points even for squads that are priced very differently. In particular, 5 Renegade Disciples and 5 Renegade Infantry Veterans both cost 35 points for 5 models – in the case of the Disciples, this includes a built-in champion upgrade. This would indicate a cost of 6 points per Disciple and 7 points per Veteran. However, the additional model cost for both units is a hefty 10 points each. Is this a typo?
3) The Renegade Chaos Spawn can only ever be taken as Troops (if unlocked), so why are they listed under the Elites section? It seems these should be under Troops, as is the case with Plague Zombies.
4) Is it a mistake that chaos sigils and vox nets are lumped into the same upgrade category/restrictions as special weapons for Renegade squads? Unit in other armies are typically not forced to pick between special weapons versus morale/leadership purchases in their “per X models in the squad” upgrades.
5) Many of the weapons entries are missing, even the ones that are not listed as being referenced to exclusively in other books.
6) In the Renegade Infantry Veteran unit, there appears to be a typo – the squad’s champion is referred to by two different labels (Veteran Champion, Renegade Champion).
7) The Infernal Relic rule in IA13 does not appear to have been written correctly so as to function within the 7th edition detachment system. Specifically, it does not address what happens when taking an Infernal Relic in a detachment that is neither selected as the army’s Primary detachment but is also not an Allied type of detachment (Combined Arms, Formations, The Purge, etc.). Currently, because these units can be selected normally as per the stamps (Heavy Support, etc.) in IA13, and because the Infernal Relic rule simply states that “The following rules apply” and then only imposes selection limitations on Primary and Allied detachments and mentions no other types, technically this means that any other type of detachment can take these units normally with no limits (clearly not the intent).
Furthermore, the rule for Primary detachments also intrinsically does not make sense – army lists (including all of an army’s detachments and the units they contain) and point values are set prior to beginning a game. During game set-up, a player chooses the character to be the army’s Warlord – that character’s detachment then becomes the Primary Detachment. The current wording/rule incorrectly reverses the order, as detachments are composed prior to determining a Warlord/Primary (which can change from game to game in a tournament).
In my area, we have done the following with the Infernal Relic rule: the Allied Detachment rule stays the same, but the Primary Detachment limitation is changed to say “In any type of Detachment other than an Allied Detachment” and the Warlord component is removed. In other words, Combined Arms and other types of detachments all always face the same restriction: they can take one Infernal Relic normally, but if the detachment contains one or more of the appropriate HQ choices, the detachment may contain more than one Infernal Relic (reflecting that these detachments types are more substantial than smaller Allied Detachments, and could be selected as the Primary Detachment). Is this an appropriate solution for the Infernal Relic rule?
8) Can a player fielding a The Purge Formation select both Chaos Space Marines as well as Renegades and Heretics units within the same detachment/formation, or must each The Purge Formation be exclusively comprised of units from one or the other?
9) The Vraksian Renegades list includes the option to take Renegade Marauders if no covenant is chosen for the Arch Demagogue, but the entry for this unit appears to be missing from the book. Is this omission an error?
10) On a loyalist note, is the Vraks Second Edition book supposed to omit the Imperial Air Navy Support Squadron entry?
11) In the IA13 Legacies of Ruin entries, there appear to be four “Vessel” upgrades tied to each of the four chaos deities, plus a fifth entry that appears to be a daemon themed around Chaos Undivided (Auloth the Primordial Iterator). However, that upgrade’s rule refers to the Icon of Wrath (related to Nurgle, and already included in one of the other upgrades). Is Auloth the Primordial Iterator supposed to instead refer to the Icon of Vengeance (the generic Chaos Icon)?
12) In IA13, there seems to be a typo on p.152- it should refer to an Arch Demagogue and not a Demagogue.
13) Is it an error that a Renegade Command Squad can only ever purchase one special weapon and one heavy weapon, as opposed to 1 per 5 models as with most other units in the army list?
14) The Master of the Horde devotion states that eliminated Renegade Infantry Squads that are “returned to play” go into Reserves. Is this supposed to state that they go into “ongoing Reserves?” In other words, are the units returned to play meant to automatically return the following turn, or do they have to do reserves rolls to come in on turns 2 and 3?
15) When using the Master of the Horde devotion in a Combined Arms Detachment (which grants troop units Objective Secured), do eliminated Renegade Infantry Squads that are “returned to play” (minus any transports) retain the Objective Secured benefit? Or do they lose it because they were not the original units “purchased” in the detachment, despite being otherwise identical to the destroyed Renegade Infantry Squads they replace?
16) Is the squad-wide Carapace Armor upgrade for the Renegade Command Squad meant to include the squad’s Arch Demagogue? Currently it only covers the Disciples, and the Arch Demagogue has to pay an additional cost to also get the same armor.
17) I have heard from others who have emailed Forgeworld that the Power Drill uses the same stats and rules as the Lascutter: STR - 9, AP-2, TYPE - MELEE, UNWIELDY, CUMBERSOME (A model using a weapon with the Cumbersome rule can only ever make a single attack at WS 1 in any Assault phase, regardless of their profile or any other bonus or special rule). Is this correct?
18) The Vraks Daemon Lord entries for Nurgle and Khorne are identical for those in IA13 except that the onerous 25% point maximum requirement is removed. Will there be errata removing this requirement from the IA13 Daemon Lords entries as well?
Are either the DR or Gorgon detachments meant to be taken anywhere outside Apoc games? I mean a DKK siege or assault list can already field upwards of 195 DRs (~3000 pts.) in the primary detachment alone. To benefit from the the Gorgon detachment you need to atleast max out the carrying capacity; otherwise, why would you pay for such an expensive transport? For one simple, infantry loaded Gorgon, this comes out to ~1000 points. It seems to me, for the Gorgon detachment to hit it's stride, you need to take a couple Gorgons (>2000 pts.)
Are there any good arguments for taking these detachments in normal 40k games?
The argument for the Death Rider one is simply that Death Riders are decent units, as they are fast, durable (for guardsmen) and packs a decent punch in close combat, while not being terribly expensive. You also don't have to use normal Death Korps infantry, which are almost always worse than normal guardsmen while being more expensive. Another bonus is that many players wanted to be able to field mounted CCS as well as an all-cavalry army.
The Gorgon Detachment is basically gak and should never be used. You pay almost as much as a Stormlord for something that's slightly more durable (due to 4++ and IWND) and has less shooting capabilities than a Leman Russ.
Aenarian wrote: The argument for the Death Rider one is simply that Death Riders are decent units, as they are fast, durable (for guardsmen) and packs a decent punch in close combat, while not being terribly expensive. You also don't have to use normal Death Korps infantry, which are almost always worse than normal guardsmen while being more expensive. Another bonus is that many players wanted to be able to field mounted CCS as well as an all-cavalry army.
Thanks for the clarification. The DR detachment sounds better then I thought!
Aenarian wrote: The argument for the Death Rider one is simply that Death Riders are decent units, as they are fast, durable (for guardsmen) and packs a decent punch in close combat, while not being terribly expensive. You also don't have to use normal Death Korps infantry, which are almost always worse than normal guardsmen while being more expensive. Another bonus is that many players wanted to be able to field mounted CCS as well as an all-cavalry army.
Thanks for the clarification. The DR detachment sounds better then I thought!
And apart from that, Death Riders are just ace. It is awesome to put mounted troops in numbers on a 40K table.
I'm really tempted to buy this, but I just got 13 a month ago, I'll have to hold off. The Vraks stuff is my favorite 40k "setting", if that makes any sense.
A quick question. Does the book have updated rules for Hector Rex, and if so, how are they different?
I'm really interested in using Death Riders in my army, what's holding me back is that I don't know how to transport them.
The miniatures are so slender and delicate, and with an added lance they just take up so much room.
I have 15 models that I bought less than a year ago, and I've worked on most of them, but what I can't figure out is whether I should glue the lances in place or not. If I make the lances detachable, the miniatures would be easier to store for transport, but the lances might fall off too easily when playing.
Crabbit wrote: It would be double sweet if FW released a DR Colonel model to make that DRCCS really pop!
If they would make one I will most certainly buy it. However, for now I will use the mounted commisar for the role. It is a suitable 'commanding' model, and paying Krieg you've no need for commisars anyways.
Alternatively you can always convert a command model yourself by replacing the upper part of the Rider's torso with that of the infantry platoon commander. I am at the moment working on such a model and it looks quite nice with the sword and pistol in hand. I'll post some pics as soon as I have something to show.
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Zingraff wrote: I'm really interested in using Death Riders in my army, what's holding me back is that I don't know how to transport them.
The miniatures are so slender and delicate, and with an added lance they just take up so much room.
I have 15 models that I bought less than a year ago, and I've worked on most of them, but what I can't figure out is whether I should glue the lances in place or not. If I make the lances detachable, the miniatures would be easier to store for transport, but the lances might fall off too easily when playing.
I transport them in foam trays, along with my tanks and centaurs. Haven't had any problems so far. They look flimsy but I only have had 'loose lances' on one or two occasions. Easily fixed.
I was thinking about making a conversion from the Death Korps Officer model, which would have the added benefit of giving me a standard I could use on the mounted command squad, as well as some additional infantry. But I wish that they still made the mounted Commissar.
As for transporting them, I'd refrain from gluing the lances. Yes, they might come loose during a game but its far better than them breaking off entirely.
Aenarian wrote:I was thinking about making a conversion from the Death Korps Officer model, which would have the added benefit of giving me a standard I could use on the mounted command squad, as well as some additional infantry. But I wish that they still made the mounted Commissar.
I saw a similar conversion using the Company Commander and it looked awesome! I'll try to find a link. I might just have to do this.
Singleton Mosby wrote:
Crabbit wrote: It would be double sweet if FW released a DR Colonel model to make that DRCCS really pop!
If they would make one I will most certainly buy it. However, for now I will use the mounted commisar for the role. It is a suitable 'commanding' model, and paying Krieg you've no need for commisars anyways.
Alternatively you can always convert a command model yourself by replacing the upper part of the Rider's torso with that of the infantry platoon commander. I am at the moment working on such a model and it looks quite nice with the sword and pistol in hand. I'll post some pics as soon as I have somethion.
The Krieg mounted commisar is an awesome model! Alas, I do not have one and they only appear on ebay ever so often for $$$.
I'm thinking a conversion from either the company or platoon commander would be a fun project. Guess I need to get some more Death Riders!
On another note, while trying to find the DRCC conversion I stumbled on this and thought I would share... Fething awesome!
I was thinking something more like this, minus the sawed-off:
That's a very nice conversion and perhaps not even difficult to do. The only drawback is that there's something not right in the pose and that it's hard to get any 'action' in the model.
Here's a (very) WIP picture of my future platoon commander.
I'm planning a less dramatic officer for my Death Riders. I'm going to use the binocular arm from the Leman Russ commander kit and add a command section pauldron. I originally wanted to use a spare sword arm, but it didn't look all that great when i removed the sword hilt from the body of the miniature. So that figure was more or less ruined as a result.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I frequently take my miniatures with me on plane trips. I've found the KR double aluminium case works well as carry-on luggage on domestic flights. Magnetic bases and metal trays wouldn't work for me, and the size of the miniatures is also an issue, because I want to pack my collection as compactly as possible.
I was thinking something more like this, minus the sawed-off:
That's a very nice conversion and perhaps not even difficult to do. The only drawback is that there's something not right in the pose and that it's hard to get any 'action' in the model.
Here's a (very) WIP picture of my future platoon commander.
He looks great! I like the action pose too; looks like he's ready to do some serious buisness! Was it difficult matching the torso to the waist/legs?
Zingraff wrote: I'm planning a less dramatic officer for my Death Riders. I'm going to use the binocular arm from the Leman Russ commander kit and add a command section pauldron. I originally wanted to use a spare sword arm, but it didn't look all that great when i removed the sword hilt from the body of the miniature. So that figure was more or less ruined as a result.
That sounds like a cool conversion too. Any WIP pics?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it works out pretty well. In the background story, the Death Riders are mainly used for reconnaissance, so it makes sense that the officer in charge would be equipped with binoculars.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think it works out pretty well. In the background story, the Death Riders are mainly used for reconnaissance, so it makes sense that the officer in charge would be equipped with binoculars.
Very cool! You guys are giving me some great ideas!
I always thought it would be fitting if DRs had special rules according to their reconnaissance role in the fluff. Maybe Scout, Infiltrate, and/or Outflank?
Zingraff wrote: I'm really interested in using Death Riders in my army, what's holding me back is that I don't know how to transport them.
The miniatures are so slender and delicate, and with an added lance they just take up so much room.
I have 15 models that I bought less than a year ago, and I've worked on most of them, but what I can't figure out is whether I should glue the lances in place or not. If I make the lances detachable, the miniatures would be easier to store for transport, but the lances might fall off too easily when playing.
I actually magnetized the torsos onto the legs of my rough riders (mostly because it was easier that the arms) that way if anything gets close enough to trying to break a lance it simply pops off the whole torso. Also makes them easier to transport since they are not as tall. I had considered the arms but i always figured gravity would make short work of them. Plus it lets me position them more dynamically on the fly!
Note: I don't have death riders, I am using Victoria Miniatures Rough Riders mounted on Cold Ones.
Here's a (very) WIP picture of my future platoon commander.
He looks great! I like the action pose too; looks like he's ready to do some serious buisness! Was it difficult matching the torso to the waist/legs?
Not at all. They two parts fit together easily. I've created the legs this evening and will make some pictures tomorrow.
@Zingraff : that's a nice officer. I've also made one with binoculars and put a lance strapped to his back, seeing how good your model looks I guess I will take off the lance after all.
Thank you! The lack of a lance means the model isn't strictly WYSIWYG, but on the other hand, almost every other model in that squad will have lances. And I think my opponents will appreciate being able to tell which model is the officer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it's a really easy conversion anyone can do with the right parts.
"Thanks for sending in your questions. We have forwarded them to our rules team for their consideration as there are some issues that we can not answer ourselves without consulting them first. Once we have their answers we will pass them on to you.
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Ok, thanks. I was hoping so. The DRCCS seems like a rather fragile unit to have your warlord in. It would have been nice if the regimental banners from IA12 were included to buff.
I guess. But compare it to a standard Death Korps Company Command Squad:
+
Two wounds and Carapace Armour standard
Decent melee options (+1A and Huntings lances)
Feel No Pain (5+ for Commander/6+ for everyone else)
Cavalry + Augmented Mounts
-
Tougher to conceal
Basically zero firepower (laspistols and perhaps a bolt/plasma pistol)
I'd say it's a pretty good deal for 50 points premium over a normal DKCCS, but then again, the DKCCS is 20-30 points overpriced at the least. It's certainly not the best unit to have the warlord in, but you really don't have much choice in the Siege Regiment List. The Quartermaster Cadre is one of the most fragile HQ I can think of, and the Commissar-General is still your run-of-the-mill Lord Commissar, apart from him being unable to join a unit if he wants a seat in a transport.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Can you give the DR CCS/PCS leader a demo charge still?
Yes. Not that you'll want to very often, since one of the best things about cavalry is that you can make long charges and don't have to get within 3-4" of your target in the shooting phase.
Crabbit wrote: Ok, thanks. I was hoping so. The DRCCS seems like a rather fragile unit to have your warlord in. It would have been nice if the regimental banners from IA12 were included to buff.
I agree with you there, you've to be cautious with them. However, they can be quite effective in a charge so that's at least something. On the other hand, who cares about a HQ
Here are some WIP pics on the progress of my Platoon/ Company commander.
Crabbit wrote: Ok, thanks. I was hoping so. The DRCCS seems like a rather fragile unit to have your warlord in. It would have been nice if the regimental banners from IA12 were included to buff.
I agree with you there, you've to be cautious with them. However, they can be quite effective in a charge so that's at least something. On the other hand, who cares about a HQ
This is where the Banner of Martyrdom would be perfect!
Singleton Mosby wrote: Here are some WIP pics on the progress of my Platoon/ Company commander.
Wow! He looks awesome! Great job! I really like the action pose of the horse. The mechanical legs look great and give it that extra grim/determined appearance. More WIP are encouraged!
Chaos Lord, bonus WS, bonus S, Eternal Warrior, Adamantium Will, Furious Charge. Claw is a PF with Assault 3 storm bolter. Chainaxe is AP4 +2A. He doesn't have the mad skillz of Grimnar so chooses one or the other (and the Chainaxe is 2-handed so no +1A making Specialist Weapon on the Claw redundant). Legendary Fighter Warlord Trait. Still gets his bodyguard of Khorne Terminators as part of his HQ choice, he has to deploy with them but doesn't have to stay with them so gets full use of his IC status. Same price as Kharn (or close).
I've lost track of this topic but if anyone still has questions they want answering pop them up.
Random question guys, in regards to the attachments can I take them solely by themselves or do I have to take something else with them like a Combined Arms Detachment?
gmaleron wrote: Random question guys, in regards to the attachments can I take them solely by themselves or do I have to take something else with them like a Combined Arms Detachment?
Thanks but that doesn't answer my question, I've only ever played with CAD, wanting to know if these follow the same rules or do I have to treat it like an allied detachment and have a CAD primary detachment with this as well?
You treat it like a CAD, but change the rules for the detachment as applicable (e.g. instead of troops gaining Objective Secured, Death Riders will etc.) and change the unit requirements (ex. 1 HQ and 2 Fast Attack instead of 1 HQ and 2 Troops). So there is no need for a CAD detachment.
Unfortunately, the DR detachment makes the normal siege list seem instantly obsolete. When would you ever want to take infantry over DRs? Plus, more HS slots in the DR detachment. Would you run it as a static artillery gunline with good counter-assault, a mobile strike force with LRBT backup, or something altogether different?
On another note, do Thunderer siege tanks still lack the Heavy vehicle rule?
Crabbit wrote: On another note, do Thunderer siege tanks still lack the Heavy vehicle rule?
They are not heavy.
gmaleron wrote: Thanks but that doesn't answer my question, I've only ever played with CAD, wanting to know if these follow the same rules or do I have to treat it like an allied detachment and have a CAD primary detachment with this as well?
There is no requirement to have a CAD primary detachment with an allied detachment. It sounds like you're still stuck in the pre-7th mindset of having a single FOC for your army and then adding on "extra" stuff. This isn't true at all anymore. If you're taking a battle-forged army the only requirement is that your army be composed of detachments. The CAD is not special in any way, it's just one possible choice among many. You can have a formation and an allied detachment, three formations, a CAD and a DKoK Gorgon detachment, ten CADs, etc. And the allied detachment does not require a CAD, it just can't have your warlord in it and it can't have the same faction as whatever detachment does have your warlord in it.
Now that we've settled the apparent rule question the answer to whether the DKoK detachments require a CAD is no, they don't. Neither detachment requires the presence of any other detachment or formation in your army.
Mr Morden wrote: Does any of the actual fluff change - i have the old books?
thanks
I'm not sure since I just skimmed it (I've already read the original books and don't feel like re-reading the same story again) but it looks like everything is pretty much the same. It might not be a literal copy/paste from the other three books but you probably won't get much out of the new edition if you've already got the original books and don't need the new rules.
I just got my book a few minutes ago, I'll try to write up a review like I did for IA12 and IA13 later today. Overall it's a rather thick book, I'm interested to see how it compares with the original trilogy.
Kinda sad the DKoK Armoured Battlegroup didn't make it in :(
Vaktathi wrote: I just got my book a few minutes ago, I'll try to write up a review like I did for IA12 and IA13 later today. Overall it's a rather thick book, I'm interested to see how it compares with the original trilogy.
Kinda sad the DKoK Armoured Battlegroup didn't make it in :(
Great, thanks Vaktahi! If you post your review else where please link it here.
Yeah, I would love to see FW update the ABG to 7th.
Ok, so instead of doing another thread on the deal, I'll simply do my review here, particularly as it will be somewhat smaller than my IA12 and IA13 review given that this is a reprint and largely copy-paste of both of those books. IA12 review and IA13 review
TL;DR: Fluff abridged, units and armies are mostly slight rejiggling of IA12 & IA13 army lists, and some character updates.
Ok so first off, when it comes to fluff in this book, it appears to mostly be intact with some abridgements. The bit about the 158th Siege Regiment has simply been condensed down to a short blurb about their attack having "collapsed", I don't recall seeing anything of the fate of the Sisters of Battle who previously in IA:VII were put to merciful execution in internal inquisition revenge politics, etc. The long, in-depth details of the background of Krieg & the detailed description of each unit is no longer included (e.g. bits about Grenadiers having an 80% casualty rate, etc). Things like that.
Ultimately, for anyone already familiar with the factions and story, it's not too much of a drag, but lacks the richness and depth of the previous trilogy for the uninitiated.
As for units and army lists, I'll start with the DKoK army list.
To start off with, the Special Rules are identical to those in IA12. Ignores 25% casualty tests, WS4, can regroup regardless of casualties if within 6" of an officer.
There is no Forlorn Hope
As for Orders, it's largely the same lot. Duty unto Death, Bring it Down, Get Back in the Fight, FRFSRF are all identical to IA12 (including FRFSRF not applying to hotshot lasguns and Bring It Down being the 2009 IG Codex's version not the updated AM book's version). Clear the Trenches is almost identical to IA12's Without Mercy is that they get Move Through Cover instead of Crusader. The one big difference is instead of Disperesed Advanced with a new order called Dig In, which gives +1 to cover saves so long as it's not in a fortification and prevents units from Running or Assaulting that turn.
So, overall, not terribly exciting, outdated and half of them pointless.
Now, Warlord Traits. Good news, they're thematically paired with those from the Assault Brigade. Bad news, they're largely just as bad.
Unflinching Defense: Warlord and DKoK units within 12" get +1 to combat resolution while in their own deployment zone
Shattering Bombardment: Identical to that in IA12, TL's one ordnance weapon within 6" of Warlord
Victory or Death: Gains Fearless and very weak FNP wehn in fortification or cover provided by defense lines
Smoke Barrage: Identical to IA12, makes it Night Fight for first turn.
Martyr's Defiance: Preferred Enemy (Infantry) for Warlord and units with 6" when in a friendly deployment zone
Siege master: Identical to a Warpsmith's Shatter Defenses rule.
Units HQ
Company Command Squad Identical to IA12. The one exception is that the advisors are identical to those in the Astra Militarum book except there is no Astropath or Quartermaster options. Unit still costs an arm and a leg, no Storm Chimera access. Still costs almost as much as a naked Valkyrie and includes a Regimental Standard
Commissar-General Identical to AM book largely.
Death Korps Quartermaster Cadre Identical to IA12, largely pointless, gives a very weak FNP bubble for units within 6".
Elites
Grenadiers Identical to IA12, no Storm Chimera option, only transport is Centaur for 5man squads.
Hydra Flak Platform AV10 2HP immobile Hydra platform, not open topped though. Costs similar to Taurox. Can only take 1 platform per FoC slot. Not terribly inspiring.
Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery Identical to IA12. Solid awesome.
Field Artillery Battery Identical to IA12, no Carcass shells, Thudd Gun retains rule about pinning tests even though they don't pin anything.
Troops
Infantry Platoon Identical to IA12, no combined squads, no heavy weapons in infantry squads, each Infantry Squad still costs more than a Chimera before upgrades, HWS's now match AM codex for price.
Unfortunately, these are rather awful, even worse with no Forlorn hope. For being an attrition based army, these guys are way too expensive to function in an attritional role.
Engineers Identical to IA12. As Troops these guys are more interesting, and most importantly, the Hades Breaching Drill has been upgraded, which I'll get to shortly.
Dedicated Transports:
Centaur Identical to IA12, still largely uninspiring.
Hades Breaching Drill DT for Engineers. This thing is now entirely different and actually *Really* useful, though not quite as absurdly good as it once was a few years ago. Basically it attaches to an Engineer squad, and must start along with the unit in Reserve and Deep Strike in. When they DS in the whole unit has a 4++ Invul for the turn. It has a unique movement mode, Tunneling, may move 12" a turn and gains a 4++ invul save in any turn it Tunnels, but can't run or assault if it uses that in the movement phase. If it Tunnels in the Assault Phase, you roll 3d6 and pick the two lowest for charge distance. NO OVERWATCH against tunneling attacks, ignores all terrain and obstacles, and counts as having assault grenades. Breaching Drill then makes D6+2 Hammer of Wrath Attacks with its Melta-Cutter, and if it's against a building each model inside takes an S4 AP2 hit on a 4+. The Drill cannot be operated distinctly from the Engineers however, and if all the Engineers are killed, then the Drill is removed from play. Drill is no longer a vehicle, but has T, W and Sv identical to that of a Dark Eldar Talos.
This thing really fits the unit's role in a functional manner, expect to see lots of these.
Fast Attack:
Cyclops As IA1 2E. independent roaming bomb, nothing too exciting.
Hellhound Squadron As AM codex
Death Rider Platoon Identical to IA12, so W2 4+sv A2 base 6++FNP Rough Riders with pistols & CCW on top of Lance.
Heavy Support Thunderer As IA1 2E, basically a BS3, Leman Russ-armored Vindicator.
Leman Russ Tank Squadron As AM codex except Annihilator and Conqueror. Annihilator has TLLC and costs as much as an LRBT (uninspiring and 20pts more than its IA1 2E cost), Conqueror gets an S8 AP3 small blast weapon with the range of a lascannon, and is Fast, and costs 10pts less than a Hellhound, pretty awesome.
Heavy Weapons Platoon: 1-3 HWS's as per the Infantry Platoon. Not very inspiring, particularly as Lascannons here match the AM codex for cost instead of being slightly cheaper as in IA12
Colossus Bombard Identical to old profile in IG codex/IA1 2E.
Heavy Artillery Battery: As per IA1 2E & previous updates, but with DKoK crew & special rules, slightly more expensive extra crew models. very cheap, durable & killy.
Lords of War are limited to the following list Baneblade
Valdor Tank Hunter
CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT
Praetor Armored Assault Launcher
Gorgon Heavy Transporter
Malcador Heavy Tank
Malcador Defender
Malcador Annihilator
Malcador Infernus
Maruader Bomber (literally the only flyer available to the entire army) Macharius
Macharius Vulcan
Macharius Vanquisher
Now, there's two Detachments for the DKoK Siege Regiment
First is the Death Rider Squadron Minimum of 1 HQ and 2 FA.
May take additional 1HQ, 2 Troops, 4 Elites, 4 Fast Attack, 4 Heavy Support, 1 Lord of War
Command Benefits Objective Secured
Thundering Charge: If two or more Death Rider units declare a charge against the same unit in a turn, they get Fear (um...not so useful)
Death Rider Command: May upgrade *one* Death Rider platoon command to a Death Rider CCS for the cost of a Taurox, must be the Warlord, Officer gets 5+ FNP and Colonel statline, and his unit may take a regimental standard for free.
This is an interesting formation, but I don't think ti's special rules are really particularly useful at all.
Then there's the Gorgon Assault Squadron Detachment MIn 1HQ, 1 Elites, 1 Troops, 1 Lord of War
May take additional 1 HQ, *9* Troops, 2 Elites, 2 Fast Attack, 2 Heavy Support, 3 Lord of War
All Lord of War choices *must* be Gorgons.
Command Benefits Objective Secured
Unstoppable Advance: as long as a Gorgon has a DKoK unit embarked, it gains It Will Not Die
Fix Bayonets!: Any unit that disembarks from a Gorgon and declared a charge on the same turn gets Furious Charge for the turn.
This detachment is somewhat amusing, I'm not convinced that the Gorgons are really that useful, especially multiples, but it is somewhat amusing to envision.
Now for the Renegades and Heretics
Special Rules Identical in their entirety to IA13, Uncertain Worth (D6+5 LD for each unit), etc. Only Covenant of Khorne and Nurgle permitted.
Demagogue Devotions: Primaris Rogue Witch, Arch-Heretic Revolutionary, & Master of the Horde are both identical to IA13.
Ordnance Tyrant - can take STrike, Artillery, Bombard, and Heavy Ordnance batteries as Elites & HS. Can take Field Artillery Batteries as non-compulsory Troops. Additionally, any weapon with both the Barrage & Blast rules that fire within 12" of the Demagogue can, so long as the blast template hole is centered entirely over an enemy model, place the template such that friendly units are under/touching it and can target enemy units locked in close combat Holy snap! this looks hideously ridiculous Shock Legion Taskmaster Can take Ogryn Brute units as Troops and *must* take them for compulsory troops. Ogryns taken this way are not scoring and do not benefit from ObSec. Warlord gets +1WS and a Neural Goad that can inflict unsavable wounds on an Ogryn unit within 12" and give them FUrious Charge and Fleet until the start of the next turn
Renegade Warlord Traits All exactly identical to IA13
Units
HQ
Renegade Command Squad Identical to IA13 except no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options
Rogue Psyker Coven Identical to IA13
Renegade Enforcer's Cadre Identical to IA13
Elites:
Renegade Chaos Spawn: Identical to IA13
Renegade Disciple Squad Identical to IA13
Renegade Ogryn Brutes Identical to IA13 but no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options
Renegade Blood Slaughterers Identical to IA13
Renegade Blight Drones Identical to IA13
Troops
Renegade Infantry Platoon identical to IA13 but no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options
Renegade Infantry Veterans identical to IA13 but no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options
Renegade Mutant Rabble identical to IA13 but no Slaanesh/Tzeentch options
Plague Zombie Mob[b]
Identical to IA13
[b]Dedicated Transport
Chimera Identical to IA13
Fast Attack
Renegade Hellhound Squadron Identical to IA13
Renegade Sentinel Squadron Identical to IA13
Renegade Salamander Squadron Identical to IA13
Heavy Support
Renegade Tank Squadron Identical to IA13
Renegade Artillery Battery Identical to IA13
Renegade Strike Battery Identical to IA13
Renegade Hydra Battery Identical to IA13
Renegade Bombard Battery Identical to IA13
Renegade Heavy Ordnance Battery Identical to IA13
Renegade Support Squad Identical to IA13
Renegade Rapier Laser Destroyer Battery Identical to IA13
Renegade Field Artillery Battery Identical to IA13 Lords of War are limited to the following list Khorne Lord of Skulls
Greater Brass Scorpion
Daemon Lord Scabeiathrax the Bloated
Daemon Lord An'ggrath the Unbound
Giant Chaos Spawn
Spined Chaos Beast
Macharius Heavy Tank
Macharius Vulcan
Macharius Omega
Valdor Tank hunter
Renegade Malcador Heavy Tank
Renegade Miniotaur Artillery Tank
Renegade Malcador Defender
Renegade Baneblade
Detachments
The Purge Units may be taken from the Renegades or Chaos Space Marine army lists Min 1HQ 2 TElites
Optional 1 HQ, 8 Troops, 4 Elites, 4 Heavy Support, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War
Restrictions:
Slaves to Darkness All units must have the Chaos Renegades or CHaos Space Marine Faction
Pledged to Nurgle No units may have a mark/devotion other than Nurgle
Command Benefits Salt the Earth: any time a unit from this detachment fires a weapon with both the Barrage & Blast rules, leave the template after resolving the attack until the beginning of your next turn, and the area of the template remains Dangerous Terrain until then
Forbidden Munitions: May upgrade flamers or heavy flamers to chemical flamers (profile identical to normal Flamer with Shred and Gets Hot), may upgrade missile launchers to Chemical Rockets and fire as S4 AP5 Small Blast, Shred, Gets Hot!. Both upgrades are free.
This detachment is quite interesting, allowing you to mix both army lists freely. Not sure how I feel about that, but it certainly opens a lot of possibilities.
Unending Host Min 1HQ, 4 Troops
Optional: 1 HQ, 8 Troops, 2 Elites, 1 FA, 1 HS, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War
Restrictions: only Chaos Renegades, Warlord must be Demagogue with Master of the Horde Devotion
Command Benefits In Numbers Uncounted: Renegade Infantry Squads recycle on 2+ instead of 5+
Over the Corpses of the Slain: Recycling Renegade Infantry Squads gain Outlank, roll 2d6-take-highest for Run moves on any turn they move on from reserves
TIl the Guns Run Dry: If the unit benefits from a cover save due to enemy units firing through another friendly Renegade Infantry Squad, cover save is increased to 3+ from 5+.
This army list is truly the hordiest of horde lists in all of 40k. Tyranids can only dream of the numbers this army can bring to the table and ensure they keep coming on.
If anyone has questions on the Characters, feel free to ask, just don't feel like going over them in detail right now.
I do like that the Chaos Renegades have a better Death Korps Assault Brigade than the Death Korps.
Forlorn hope? Pretty mediocre, if I'm being generous. Whole platoon has to die, comes in from normal reserves. Renegades? Each unit comes back on a 2+, gains outflank, 2d6 run and get a 3+ cover save from their own units?
MajorStoffer wrote: I do like that the Chaos Renegades have a better Death Korps Assault Brigade than the Death Korps.
Forlorn hope? Pretty mediocre, if I'm being generous. Whole platoon has to die, comes in from normal reserves. Renegades? Each unit comes back on a 2+, gains outflank, 2d6 run and get a 3+ cover save from their own units?
Not to mention each unit being half the price of a DKoK infantry squad
MajorStoffer wrote: I do like that the Chaos Renegades have a better Death Korps Assault Brigade than the Death Korps.
Forlorn hope? Pretty mediocre, if I'm being generous. Whole platoon has to die, comes in from normal reserves. Renegades? Each unit comes back on a 2+, gains outflank, 2d6 run and get a 3+ cover save from their own units?
Use these rules with DKoK models! Not a bad idea, huh?
MajorStoffer wrote: I do like that the Chaos Renegades have a better Death Korps Assault Brigade than the Death Korps.
Forlorn hope? Pretty mediocre, if I'm being generous. Whole platoon has to die, comes in from normal reserves. Renegades? Each unit comes back on a 2+, gains outflank, 2d6 run and get a 3+ cover save from their own units?
Use these rules with DKoK models! Not a bad idea, huh?
A serious possibility.
Only problem is a good chunk of my current army's points comes from Leman Russes, which I could only run with in this list. I'll experiment, as Emperor knows I wouldn't lose much by using the alternate rules.
I just got my copy last night as well. I will just make a few comments and ideas I came up with. Most of it is similar to what the rest of you came up with.
BTW I emailed last night and got a rules answer in the morning. That is some great customer service.
Spoiler:
My email;
I had a few rules questions about the new army list in the new Imperial Armour Vraks book.
1) As far as I can tell there is no way to take Spawn in the Siege of Vraks army list. The covenant of Tzeentch cannot be taken but the spawn unit was kept? Is this right or was there supposed to be a method to take spawn.
2) Can the Purge detachment take units from the Chaos Space Marine codex supplements? ie Black Legion units, etc.
Thanks.
FW Answer;
Hi,
Thank you for your email. The answers to your questions are as follows -
1. The covenant specific heading in the spawn section should have been removed, to allow you to take spawn as elites choices.
2. When using the Purge Detachment it must be composed entirely of models from a single Faction, but not from supplement codex's.
If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
Regards,
Forge World
Fore the DKoK portion;
*Overall this list is pretty poorly balanced. They have massively overcosted most of the units for dubious at best "upgrades". What was good is pretty much unchanged, however some of the mediocre or bad stuff actually became really good. My biggest disappointment with the list is that not having the Astra Militarum orders. Some of the new orders are good (dig in is actually really good). However not having easy ignore cover is going to be a factor keep this army from competing in the big leagues.
*The DKoK death rider detachment is actually really good. ObjSec Death Rider units are a very good source of scoring. They will be better in score as you go missions as you tend to find yourself in melee more when getting on an objective turn 1 can give points. However the real beauty of the detachment is the extra Elites and HS slots and the ability to avoid wasting points on a CCS and Troops which in the DKoK siege list are pretty awful.
*The hades assault drill units are just a wonderfully designed unit. They are fast when you want them to be. They can be made reasonably shooty but are naturally a very brutal melee threat. You can attach characters and bring them into the fun. The funniest part is when you sacrifice a couple of engineers the unit becomes ridiculously durable. I am liking the HF team + flamer with the rest of the squad being sacrifices. The watchmaster w/ melta bombs + meltagun could also be a nice unit to help mess up imperial knights. The coolest part about the unit is that you can always use it as a 12" movement 4+ invulnerable harassment and scoring unit.
Renegades and Heretics - Vraks
*When I first looked through this a saw IA13 having lost it's best scoring unit in return for some niche rules and units. Then I looked at the Ordnance Tyrant and could see how the list could but fun but I was still not convinced. Then I looked at the detachments...wow.
*The Ordnance Tyrant! If you are like me you usually struggled to fill out your points with a single CAD. The HS slots are so heavily laden in the IA13 list and the units so cheap that I can easily use 3 CADs to make an 1850 pts army. The OrdTy fixes a lot of that. He allows you to take field artillery in the troops slots (does not fulfill minimum requirements) and heavy artillery carriages and Wyverns in your Elites slots, thus freeing the HS slots for rapier batteries Then he goes a step further and allows models within 12" of him to drop barrage templates on enemy units engaged in CC. Like I said though it doesn't get awesome until you get to detachments.
*So the Purge detachment is pretty cool on it's own. It is an extra CSM detachment to allow CSM to get more HQs in a 2 detachment event. It has some really cool rules like chem flamers and dangerous terrain barrage. It even has some extra slots. It gets downright amazing though when you consider how this interacts with the OrdTy. You get so many slots to put artillery in that you can MSU your artillery. How about thud guns putting down 4 dangerous terrain templates on every enemy unit every turn? A big zombie unit could also be an excellent way to tie a key unit up while you lay into it with heavy artillery carriages. A lot of the weaknesses of an artillery line a nicely masked by putting dangerous terrain down all over the board and being able to shoot into your speed bumps.
*The Unending Host is aptly named. It is what every endless tide of footsloggers grinding your enemy down through attrition wishes it was. The funniest part is with chaos sigils in the units you don't even have to worry about getting pinned and loosing the use of a unit. Just charge forward and drown the opponent in bodies. This really is an army that finds the support of a nice CSM allies as a huge boon. A simple kharne + 4 meltagun chosen in dreadclaw and a fire raptor is game changing when added to this army. I am not so convinced of its complete superiority over forlorn hope but it is a heck of a lot more dynamic and fun to play than the DKoK assault brigade as stuff is happening every turn with no down turns. I am also thinking that you will have to be careful not to take too many bodies so that you end up squeezing yourself out of spacing and control.
Vaktathi wrote: I need to make some Engineers with heavy flamers. The Hades being useable again is going to make them excellent units.
They totally are.
The interesting thing is that you can take a number of different types of engineer units and decide who gets the hades during deployment.
I am currently wondering whether small units to maximize drills and special/heavy weapons are better or larger units to increase the durability. The ability to move 12" and gain a 4+ invulnerable save means the unit is actually pretty durable for the pts cost. You can also play some nice games with the right allies such as karamov dropping templates on the unit while it has a 4+ invulnerable and the right inquisitor can do a lot for the unit both in CC and outside CC. Just imagine adding an incinerator to the unit and zipping it around the board with 12" moves.
As far as I remember (not next to the book) the poison bombs never make any mention of the grenade rules. Thus you could throw a krak grenade and a poison bomb.
The Hades T7 does suffer from majority toughness until you "sacrifice" enough of the engineer unit to leave the drill and a single model. This actually isn't as hard as you might think as the drill has a 3+ armour save and is rarely ID due to T7. Just put all the models except 1 in front of the drill.
Even when the drill unit is T3 though they are either a 12" ignore terrain movement and 4+ invulnerable save unit or they are hitting extremely hard with HoW attacks. The clincher is that the drill does HoW attacks and gives no overwatch when it uses it's assault ability. This leaves most units hard pressed to do meaningful damage in the assault phase as you will average 4 unsaved wounds on most units at I10. Even an imperial knight will not find this a fun experience. Interestingly enough the HoW autohitting could make this an annoying counter to grav stars, it takes a full centurion grav star with prescience to kill a 10 engineer unit with drill on average. That actually isn't bad when you consider that 3 drill units and a comms relay is relatively cheap and could make an entirely decent base for an army.
ansacs wrote: The Hades T7 does suffer from majority toughness until you "sacrifice" enough of the engineer unit to leave the drill and a single model. This actually isn't as hard as you might think as the drill has a 3+ armour save and is rarely ID due to T7. Just put all the models except 1 in front of the drill.
That sounds like a very good method to keep it alive. Does a Heavy flamer team cousts as a single model for this purpose?
I haven't tried out the new Hades but guess it will be a priority target of anyone when it pops up behind enemy lines.
Unending Host
Min 1HQ, 4 Troops
Optional: 1 HQ, 8 Troops, 2 Elites, 1 FA, 1 HS, 1 Fortification, 1 Lord of War
Restrictions: only Chaos Renegades, Warlord must be Demagogue with Master of the Horde Devotion
Command Benefits
In Numbers Uncounted: Renegade Infantry Squads recycle on 2+ instead of 5+
Over the Corpses of the Slain: Recycling Renegade Infantry Squads gain Outlank, roll 2d6-take-highest for Run moves on any turn they move on from reserves
TIl the Guns Run Dry: If the unit benefits from a cover save due to enemy units firing through another friendly Renegade Infantry Squad, cover save is increased to 3+ from 5+.
This army list is truly the hordiest of horde lists in all of 40k. Tyranids can only dream of the numbers this army can bring to the table and ensure they keep coming on.
Holy Gods of Chaos!
This is....that's......
I....
Muahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was reading the Renegades & Heretics list last night, and worked out that you can take a Master of The Horde with a full command squad and over four hundred renegade militia in 1,500 points, even allowing for a few leadership upgrades.
I think we may now have the ultimate 'send in the next wave' army. About half the infantry is going to have to start in reserve just to fit in a normal deployment zone, but the fact that the respawned reserves come on from the flanks means that they actually get straight back into the fight, rather than spending 2-3 turns getting back to where they were when they died.
The idea of burying elite armies in a tidal wave of four hundred respawning bodies is disconcertingly tempting....
I will post some of the army lists I have come up with for this new list and detachments later today.
My current unending host is an army of 320 infantry models at 1850 pts. Every infantry unit is 14 renegades, 1 champ or demagogue w/ power axe and melta bombs, 1 chaos sigil, and krak grenades. I was tempted with the idea of just maxing out model count and "drowning" the board in units. However I soon realized a savy player will just block you with vehicles and MC that you cannot harm. Without proper upgrades most games will just devolve into a boring stalemate turn 2-3. Thus I made every unit capable of hurting any model in the game except flyers (whom cannot block my movement and stay safe). BTW the demagogue in the infantry squads is pretty decent, 4 attacks (5 on the charge) with a power axe is enough to get some very respectable work done.
At 320 models this army will fit most deploment zones just fine, you will however want to bunch them up and essentially shove the entire line forward for turn 1 movement. Once units start dying and coming back on in reserves is when you start gaining movement. If the opponent is so foolish as to not kill units then you leave the champ and sigil for last so your units don't fail morale (thus causing a movement obstacle or loosing you movement) and you maintain the majority of your damage potential. With the sigils the opponent will be forced to kill 13 models just to get to important bits of the unit.
How this army wins games is by either pushing the opponent so deep into their deployment zone they cannot see objectives or killing everything with ObjSec and then flooding the objectives. KP missions are essentially impossible to win with this type of army. Luckily I pretty much always play ITC missions or modified maelstorm. This is one of the reasons I think power axes, melta bombs, and krak grenades are necessary. They are a psychological weapon rather than a damage dealer. Most of the big lists in 40K right now have several units in them that could wade into 30 cultists without these and survive 5-6 turns. Consider a drop pod list. The SM player is savy so they DS their pods in front of your units such that they create a line you have to go around. They can then use their ObjSec marines to run to objectives. When you finally manage to walk your way through the pods to the objectives you will struggle to kill the marines before the game ends. The marines are ObjSec while you are not thus the SM player wins. Every time with essentially no luck on the dice required.
Now even with the grenades, etc. the units are only moderately threatening. In reality most lists would be better served with holding their ground and then moving out to claim objectives while taking their licks. However, most players will retreat when 22 units all of which can kill any model in the game are coming at them. Essentially it boils down to how hard the mental calculation is. For example whether my Imperial Knight should wade in or not; with the no upgrades list 0 damage over 6 turns is easy while with the melta bombs 0.4 HP and 12% explodes per champ over 6 turns is hard. I have to consider can I snipe the melta bombs out fast enough not to have a dead knight in 2-3 turns and whether the time the knight buys killing and holding up that sector of the board is worth probably loosing the knight. If I can lock down the majority of the units from meaningful forward progress then the answer is actually charging the knight in. The funniest example of this is a pask punisher unit who is actually better served not shooting the no upgrades list and just occupying space
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, BTW I have more answers from forgeworld;
Spoiler:
ME; Hello again,
I cam up with 2 more questions about the Imperial Armour Vraks rules.
1) For the Purge detachment do I have this right that you can only take models from Renegades and Heretics or Chaos Space Marine Factions in a single Purge detachment. ie if you take a Chaos Space Marine sorcerer you could not take a Renegades and Heretics Demagogue in the same Purge detachment.
2) Should the new rules for the Hades Breaching Drill be used for the units in other Imperial Armour books that can take one? For example veteran units in Imperial Armour 1 Second Edition?
Thank you for attention and your previous answers on the rules for Imperial Armour Vraks.
forgeworld 6:50 AM (8 hours ago)
to me
Hi,
Thank you for your email. The answers to your questions are -
1. You are correct - if you take a Chaos Space Marine sorcerer you could not take a Renegades and Heretics Demagogue in the same Purge detachment.
2. Yes
If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
Regards,
Forge World
That actually makes the vets with hades drill units amazing tank hunters. Carapace, 2 meltaguns and 10 bodies with meltabombs w/ drill for under 170 pts. This units is pretty much guaranteed to kill an imperial knight and has a very decent chance to catch one.
For those who missed it in my thread here on Dakka, I heard back from FW about a lot of IA:13 and IA: Vraks questions about a week ago. Here is a link to the same info on B&C:
Crabbit wrote: Maybe I missed this. Does the Hades only have HoW attacks or can it attack back if charged?
It can attack, just not very effectively. It does get the melta cutter weapon profile but it only has a single WS 2 attack at I1 on its basic stat line. The D6+2 HoW hits only apply when you charge and can use HoW. IOW, you really want to charge.
Crabbit wrote: Maybe I missed this. Does the Hades only have HoW attacks or can it attack back if charged?
It can attack, just not very effectively. It does get the melta cutter weapon profile but it only has a single WS 2 attack at I1 on its basic stat line. The D6+2 HoW hits only apply when you charge and can use HoW. IOW, you really want to charge.
Seems like the Hades HoW could be easily countered by a counter-assault since it cannot DS-attack. Mathammer says it has an average charge distance of 9 or 10, add on 6 for movement, and that is an average max of 15 -16" for charge distance. Lots of other units (e.g. bikes, beast, calvary, etc.) can out charge the Hades. I suppose it's effectiveness really depends on who you are up against and whether they know what is about to hit them.
Since the charge range of the Hades is: "3d6, discard the highest", wouldn't it be lower then 9 or 10?
I think am average charge range of 4-6 is more likely, with anything like 9" being the exception. Which means your threat range will be only 12", and then you won't be certain of making the charge at all. Or do I misinterpret the rules?
Singleton Mosby wrote: Since the charge range of the Hades is: "3d6, discard the highest", wouldn't it be lower then 9 or 10?
I think am average charge range of 4-6 is more likely, with anything like 9" being the exception. Which means your threat range will be only 12", and then you won't be certain of making the charge at all. Or do I misinterpret the rules?
Here is the source for the 9-10 probability for 3d6, drop the highest.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Since the charge range of the Hades is: "3d6, discard the highest", wouldn't it be lower then 9 or 10?
I think am average charge range of 4-6 is more likely, with anything like 9" being the exception. Which means your threat range will be only 12", and then you won't be certain of making the charge at all. Or do I misinterpret the rules?
Here is the source for the 9-10 probability for 3d6, drop the highest.
So I got a game in with the new Hades rules. I'm not entirely sure it's a great representation of their value, but I found it quite amusing.
So, I ran two units of five engineers, each with a Hades drill.
I'm facing an SW army with a single knight, running an Assault Brigade and an allied Siege Regiment detachment. I get first turn, don't accomplish much, he moves up turn 2 and then back to me.
So both drills come in, I DS them behind the Knight, thinking he'll have to deal with the Rapiers to the fore, and the Drills behind. Well, turned out to largely be irrelevant, the Rapiers kill the Knight on the next turn, and its explosion puts a bunch of wounds on the Engineer units, and some bolter shots finish off one of the drills and largely cripple the last one. However, the last Drill has a single Engineer left, and thus majority T7 kicks in.
This is where things got lulzy. Assaulted a unit of 8 Grey Hunters, kill 4 on the charge (3 from HoW), they have to fight against T7, and I save the only wound it takes. They don't get to use their Krak Grenades or Meltabombs because it's neither a vehicle nor MC but simple Infantry, and have to continue fighting the unit at T7.
By the end of the game, 2 remaining GH's were locked in combat with the drill, 7 were killed over the course of the game by it. That majority T7 that kicks in when the unit gets whittled down, coupled with the fact that the Drill is technically Infantry and thus makes all those grenades pointless, makes it a hilarious tarpit.
Expect to see lots of MSU engineer drill units as a result methinks in DKoK armies.
Renegade horde list are better at being DKoK than the DKoK themselves are.
Oddly enough, yes. GW seems to think WS4 and the morale rules are reason enough to make basic DKoK grunts cost more than codex Veterans.
Drills require plasma or wipeout before T7 kicks in, otherwise it will not die.
Pretty much. a smart player will put a bunch of engineers (and the Watchmaster) ahead of the drill and like one or two guys behind it to absorb shooting (and get rid of the Watchmaster so he can't potentially be challenged out in CC and his Ld isn't needed against shooting attacks) while keeping enough alive to keep the Drill around, then once in CC allocate wounds to the 3+sv W3 drill while keeping that last dude alive.
Vaktathi wrote: Pretty much. a smart player will put a bunch of engineers (and the Watchmaster) ahead of the drill and like one or two guys behind it to absorb shooting (and get rid of the Watchmaster so he can't potentially be challenged out in CC and his Ld isn't needed against shooting attacks) while keeping enough alive to keep the Drill around, then once in CC allocate wounds to the 3+sv W3 drill while keeping that last dude alive.
Best put a Heavy flamer team behind. Counts as one model with two wounds, T7 in this case and has a chunky weapon to boot!
Renegade horde list are better at being DKoK than the DKoK themselves are.
Drills require plasma or wipeout before T7 kicks in, otherwise it will not die.
I have this feeling as well. I made and ran a Renegade horde list the other day, but with all the platoons beefed up to better WS/BS and krak grenades with loads of melta at 20 man. It ran pretty well and only lacked in anti air firepower, although I gave up my warlord pretty quick to long range fire. I am now going to try a new list with a similar element but I will also mix in squads with CC weapons
Mechanicore wrote: Can watchmasters/sergeants have lasguns or are they forced to have pistol CCW like the astra militarum rules?
Infantry squad watchmasters can have lasguns. Engineer squad watchmasters come with shotguns by default like the rest of the squad. Death rider watchmasters can not take lasguns, but the whole squad is pistol/CCW only so that's no surprise. Platoon and company commanders can only have pistol/CCW options.
I played the Breaching drill for the first time today against traitor guard. Still a bit undecided about it.
The charge range makes it a tricky unit since the "3d6, discard the highest" is seriously hampering your charge. Furthermore the BS2 isn't something to write home about either. Of course, when you park the drill against a vehicle or MC it is as sweet as can be.
On the plus side I liked to tunnel during the movement phase, quickly getting everywhere I wanted with my melta and heavy flamer. That was nice for sure!
The Death Rider detachment I'd pure win! It is an awesome sight on the table and these guys are just good. I ran 18 riders behind a screen of two Conquerors and a Hellhound. Two bombard supplied the fire support. I can tell you, that combination is nice to play with!
Singleton Mosby wrote: Since the charge range of the Hades is: "3d6, discard the highest", wouldn't it be lower then 9 or 10?
I think am average charge range of 4-6 is more likely, with anything like 9" being the exception. Which means your threat range will be only 12", and then you won't be certain of making the charge at all. Or do I misinterpret the rules?
Here is the source for the 9-10 probability for 3d6, drop the highest.
Vaktathi wrote: Oddly enough, yes. GW seems to think WS4 and the morale rules are reason enough to make basic DKoK grunts cost more than codex Veterans.
In my opinion, DKoK infantrymen should be dropped to WS3 (WS4 is the realm of advanced melee fighters, honestly, not even Scions get it) and get a nicely significant points drop as well. They may need a price drop anyway, and with WS3 they definitely should have one, maybe even a greater one.
The cheaper the better in fact, though I can't think of any other suitable stat to drop to drop price further.
DKoK are famed for their zerg tactics, so they should be able to use zerg tactics! And low cost is key to that. Also, unit recycling. The IA13 renegade Master of the Horde or whatshisname is hilariously good at it. DKoK should get a Chenkov at the very least.
Ashiraya wrote: (WS4 is the realm of advanced melee fighters, honestly, not even Scions get it)
Advanced melee fighters like IG platoon commanders? Basic storm troopers don't get WS 4 because they're a shooting unit with hardly any more melee skill/training than regular IG troops. DKoK guardsmen, on the other hand, train obsessively for melee combat. So it makes sense that they'd have at least the same WS as a platoon commander who is just a regular guardsman with a sword.
As for WS 3 justifying a points drop, not really. The to-hit chart for WS really minimizes the value of a good WS stat and even DKoK guardsmen are still primarily a shooting unit. Having WS 4 is a tiny part of the cost of a DKoK unit and dropping to WS 3 probably wouldn't justify even a 1-point decrease. So all you're really doing is nerfing a minor fluff attribute without making any significant balance changes.
DKoK should get a Chenkov at the very least.
The IA12 list has a Chenkov-style ability where you can respawn a destroyed platoon. I really have no idea why the IA:Vraks version of the list omitted it, especially without changing the point costs of platoons. Adding it back by house rule would make a lot more sense than any other changes.
DKoK have always been very good in CC. In their original Chapter Approved list they were actually Fearless in close combat, and were WS4 in the 3.5E codex.
Honestly, as for Scions, I think it's a travesty they don't have WS4 and at least Ld8/9 like the Skitarii have, but that's another topic altogether. DKoK aren't necessarily super skilled fighters in and of themselves, but are very aggressive and are much better trained to act as a coordinated assault unit than most typical IG units. It's really more of a "1v1 they're not really that great, but as a coordinated unit they're incredible", and WS4 was just the easiest way to represent that.
I'd give it up in a heartbeat though if it meant one could take DKoK infantry units at anything resembling a sane price. Even in the assault brigade where they can recycle they're absurdly overcosted. Tyranids can do the same thing for free with formations.
The WS4 also usually hurts more often than it helps, often making it so an enemy unit whiffs *just enough* to not quite wipe the squad and gets to hide in CC.
The lack of any ability to blob up is also really odd, given that they're built on WW1 infantry units that generally operated much more with entire companies as the smallest element of maneuver as opposed to squads or fire teams. They'd be the perfect army for it.
However, even with WS4, they're not worth 70pts per squad, not by a long shot. They could make them identical to basic IG units in cost, keep the heavy weapon out, and allow blobbing, and you'd have a pretty solidly balanced WW1 style IG unit that's a little more capable in assaults but a lot less shooty.
Vaktathi wrote: Even in the assault brigade where they can recycle they're absurdly overcosted.
Really? You pay 40% more for a squad (20% more if you consider the standard "+1 point per model for special rules" tax FW tends to add) compared to codex IG, and if you respawn it once you get at least 100% more value. Deploy them up front as meatshields, then once they're killed you respawn them as objective campers in your own deployment zone.
Tyranids can do the same thing for free with formations.
Sure, but formations are an incredibly stupid execution of a questionable idea. "Is this as broken as one of GW's worst balance mistakes" shouldn't be the standard for whether or not a unit is reasonably priced.
The lack of any ability to blob up is also really odd, given that they're built on WW1 infantry units that generally operated much more with entire companies as the smallest element of maneuver as opposed to squads or fire teams. They'd be the perfect army for it.
It's a fluff thing. I suspect someone at FW didn't like the addition of combined squads in 5th edition and took them out. And really it's not an ability that makes much sense fluff-wise since the squad still keeps its own sergeant/weapon upgrades/etc. You still have individual squads of guardsmen, you just treat them as one unit for rules purposes in a game that isn't really designed to handle 50-model units.
Vaktathi wrote: Even in the assault brigade where they can recycle they're absurdly overcosted.
Really? You pay 40% more for a squad (20% more if you consider the standard "+1 point per model for special rules" tax FW tends to add) compared to codex IG, and if you respawn it once you get at least 100% more value. Deploy them up front as meatshields, then once they're killed you respawn them as objective campers in your own deployment zone.
It only works if the entire platoon has been destroyed, which is extremely situational (and which an opponent can often game quite well), and the Renegades and Heretics can do the same thing, paying *far* less, and can recycle units as they're destroyed rather than waiting on the whole platoon. I'd also rather just be able to start half again as many infantry units on the board in the first place.
Sure, but formations are an incredibly stupid execution of a questionable idea. "Is this as broken as one of GW's worst balance mistakes" shouldn't be the standard for whether or not a unit is reasonably priced.
You're absolutely right, but it's the reality of the game as is, and GW are only looking to be doubling-down on it by the look of releases over the last couple months.
It's a fluff thing. I suspect someone at FW didn't like the addition of combined squads in 5th edition and took them out. And really it's not an ability that makes much sense fluff-wise since the squad still keeps its own sergeant/weapon upgrades/etc. You still have individual squads of guardsmen, you just treat them as one unit for rules purposes in a game that isn't really designed to handle 50-model units.
Yeah, it would just make sense that if *any* IG army is going to operate that way, it'd be the DKoK, who explicitly can't. There's no good balance reason for them not to have such an ability.
Vaktathi wrote: It only works if the entire platoon has been destroyed, which is extremely situational (and which an opponent can often game quite well)
I don't think it's that situational. You deploy them up front as meatshields for the rest of your army and force your opponent to go through them. Either they ignore them, fail to make any progress on getting to your real threats, and suffer a round of melta shots before getting charged, or they kill them to get to the stuff that matters. I'm not really sure how you can fail to get a platoon killed before the end of the game if you're trying to martyr your meatshields.
and the Renegades and Heretics can do the same thing, paying *far* less, and can recycle units as they're destroyed rather than waiting on the whole platoon.
They're cheaper in terms of point cost, but they have much higher prerequisites. You have to take a specific detachment with a specific HQ choice (and give up the awesome "drop artillery on my own models" rule), and you have to take at least four squads (plus either four more squads or two of the pretty bad alternative troops) to meet the special detachment FOC requirements. And you only get BS/WS 2 with unreliable leadership instead of WS 2/BS 3 "fearless". The IA12 list just pays an extra 30 points to make its platoons respawn, and allows you to take a single platoon as meatshields to support your tanks/death riders/etc. So, for example, you can take that wonderful death rider detachment and throw in a respawning meatshield platoon to give your death riders some protection as they move into position and then respawn on your "home" objectives (the ones your cavalry has probably advanced away from).
In short: the renegades list is great if you want a pure respawning hordes army, but if you want respawning meatshields added to a "conventional" IG army the IA12 list is still good. And the IA:Vraks list would have been good if its platoons had the same respawn rule as the IA12 version.
Yeah, it would just make sense that if *any* IG army is going to operate that way, it'd be the DKoK, who explicitly can't. There's no good balance reason for them not to have such an ability.
I suspect what happened is someone at FW said "this is stupid and shouldn't exist at all for any army" and removed it from the FW lists as a matter of principle. Unfortunately GW doesn't bother to communicate between their divisions so the "main" rule authors didn't go along with it.
Did anybody use the Hades Breaching Drill in a game in the last couple of weeks? I am curious what your thoughts are about it after using it in action.
I will be using two Hades' during a 3000 point escalation game later today. Hope to ram it into Ghaskul and a Stompa just to see how effective the Drill is.
I used two Hades' against Orks in a 3000pts game yesterday. They are very situational and rather difficult to handle. When the enemy is shooting at them the Hades has to be at the back but when you are charging it needs to be in front. Otherwise it will not be able to use its HOW attacks (has to end up in base to base contact). This I failed to do on one occasion which is a pitty.
However, when the drill hits home against vehicles, it is a terrible massacre for sure.
Once your opponent knows what the drill can do they will turn into a certain fire-magnet. So they might be killed often without doing anything. However, their 4++ might help soak up a bit more then their worth. I also found the drill useful when tunneling in order to get closer to the enemy. In my next game I will not deepstrike the drill but deploy it out of sight and then hop from target to target, whilst tunneling. Using a heavy flamer and melta to good effect. If the unit is within 10" of an enemy you can hazard a charge. The charge range is however very short.
Given all the discussion on the pros and cons of the IA12 Unstoppable Advance/Forlorn Hope, have any of you ever run a pure infantry list with these rules? If so, how did it go? I have an opportunity to pick-up a large lot of DKoK infantry platoons on the cheap and was curious if an all infantry list is fun-casual-competitive.
(one in the 
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Then he goes a step further and allows models within 12" of him to drop barrage templates on enemy units engaged in 
