In other words- which Primarch would the Chaos Gods have seen as the least corruptible?*

There's an argument that could, in theory, be made that those aren't the same, but I don't think it's one that holds water.

*At the time immediately before Horus fell

Ferus Manus. If the rumours about his hands being Living Metal are true, that's a built-in anti-warp-taint device right there.

Rogal Dorn. He seems to have been made with the same attributes as the Custodes and his loyalty to the Emperor is placed above all else.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Rogal Dorn. He seems to have been made with the same attributes as the Custodes and his loyalty to the Emperor is placed above all else.

His pain fetish though could have put him over the edge. Too much masochism and he could have fallen to Slaanesh before he vanished into thin air.

Also, I'd have to say a tie between Sanguinius and Vulkan. Vulkan is a genuine humanitarian and the fire in his belly burns for one purpose and that purpose only- the protection of the meek. The only way I could see him falling to Chaos is if he believed he found definite proof that civilian life would be better under Chaos then under the Emperor, and there's a fat chance of that ever happening. As for Sanguinius, he's SPEEESSS Jesus.

Dorn. At the weekender they said he was pretty much incorruptible.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Rogal Dorn. He seems to have been made with the same attributes as the Custodes and his loyalty to the Emperor is placed above all else.

His pain fetish though could have put him over the edge. Too much masochism and he could have fallen to Slaanesh before he vanished into thin air.

True, but his pain isn't about pleasure it's about penance and correcting failure. But ok, it could go the other way, if Dorn was a lesser Primarch

 Wyzilla wrote:
his belly burns for one purpose and that purpose only- the protection of the meek.

Lies! This has been replaced with wanting to kick Curze in the nuts!

And doesn't Vulkan have a similar fetish as Dorn, but on the end of a Branding Rod?

 Wyzilla wrote:


Vulkan is a genuine humanitarian and the fire in his belly burns for one purpose and that purpose only- the protection of the meek. The only way I could see him falling to Chaos is if he believed he found definite proof that civilian life would be better under Chaos then under the Emperor

He could be forced in such a situation quite easilly with inquisition and other legions obliterating regular humans like no big deal. When such stuff happens, you start asking yourself: "Is it really that great in here?". He could feel bitter and even desperate. Viola. You've got a place for Chaos to set it's roots exploiting this uncertainty.

Going with the Angel. Seems to have real faith in humanity, not just the Emperor. Also, seeing his children fall to a maddening disease that may have been brought on by his own possible warp taint, just drove him to fight against chaos that much more.

Also again, Sanguinius is a pretty cool guy, and doesn't affraid of nothin'.

Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

The Chaos Gods themselves at least thought that Sanguinius could have been corrupted. Horus thought otherwise, but there was speculation by those around him that he was actually afraid the Chaos Gods would replace him with Sanguinius.

I think it was Erebus who thought Sanguinius would fall. Lorgar was pretty sure he wouldn't, so if Lorgar was sure I doubt the Chaos gods thought he would fall.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think it was Erebus who thought Sanguinius would fall. Lorgar was pretty sure he wouldn't, so if Lorgar was sure I doubt the Chaos gods thought he would fall.

In Fear to Tread the Slaanesh greater daemon made it clear that the original plan for Signus Prime was to corrupt Sanguinius, so at least some of the gods thought he could be turned. Horus changed the plan and ordered Ka'bandha to kill Sanguinius, claiming that trying to turn him was just a waste of time. Erebus and I think one other person thought he might have been just trying to secure his own position more than anything.

Corax, he cares more about helping people than anything that could lead them to fall to chaos. Corax was also the only Primarch who hated Horus with a passion. This was due to Horus trying to take control of his legion and the assault on gate 42, where Horus and Perturabo used the Raven Guard as cannon fodder.

 Orblivion wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think it was Erebus who thought Sanguinius would fall. Lorgar was pretty sure he wouldn't, so if Lorgar was sure I doubt the Chaos gods thought he would fall.

In Fear to Tread the Slaanesh greater daemon made it clear that the original plan for Signus Prime was to corrupt Sanguinius, so at least some of the gods thought he could be turned. Horus changed the plan and ordered Ka'bandha to kill Sanguinius, claiming that trying to turn him was just a waste of time. Erebus and I think one other person thought he might have been just trying to secure his own position more than anything.

Ah okay yeah. But Lorgar knew it wasn't going to work anyway, he says about it in Betrayer.

Rogal Dorn, he places his trust in the Emperor above all else, and he even smashed his sword failing to protect the Emperor. This makes him have the most willpower against chaos.

@ImaGeek

Its rather easy in life to say things like that after the event. Its not very honest from Lorgar I would say The boy doesn't see further than his nose and even then...

I would say that only Ferrus Manus, Sanguinous and Vulkan had truly character. They were the only ones with at least a shred of humanity and rationality in them. Their loyalty to the Emperor was not only due to their bloodbond and they were the only ones who had a very clear plan for themselves and their Legion. Russ and Dorn were to blind to their own faults to be difficult to corrupt.

It was before, or while it was going on at least. And from the sounds of it he'd warned Erebus before not to waste his time with it.

Lion El'Johnson. His loyalty to the Emperor is absolute, he lacks true ambition, and there is nothing he truly desires beyond service to the Emperor.

Sanguinius also ranks there, but I'm not sure due to the Red Thirst.

I don't believe any of them were completely incorruptible, but if I had to say least corruptible I would have to say Vulkan or Corax.

3 Lion El Johnson pawns, attempting to cover up the truth.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

What? Sanguinius is the most like the Emperor in every way, aside from the wings. He's go the Emperor's looks, close combat prowess, foresight, etc.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

What? Sanguinius is the most like the Emperor in every way, aside from the wings. He's go the Emperor's looks, close combat prowess, foresight, etc.

His point still stands though, Horus was the favored son. That is, mostly, the basis for why I don't think any of them are incorruptible.

text removed.


Reds8n

Lion El. If not the least, I think he would be one of the least susceptible to Chaos.



Ambition =\= immediate fall to Chaos. Besides, Guilliman had just as much ambition as Lion El

 Orblivion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

What? Sanguinius is the most like the Emperor in every way, aside from the wings. He's go the Emperor's looks, close combat prowess, foresight, etc.

His point still stands though, Horus was the favored son. That is, mostly, the basis for why I don't think any of them are incorruptible.

Oh, yeah, NOBODY is incorruptable. You get the right people/daemons in the right place for the right amount of time, and just about anybody would fall to Chaos. The biggest issue that I have with the Horus Heresy is that when the Chaos Gods (who are supposedly tens of millions of years old) somehow went about it in a completely idiotic manner. I mean, seriously, all that they would have to do is get people like Erebus and the Slaaneshi Daemon in Fulgrim with all of the Primarchs. Then, what you have to do is have a few of them die in battle, and a few of them revealed as traitors and executed; allowing for the roughly half-and-half result on the Legions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as incorruptibility in Primarchs, I'd rank it:
1.) Sanguinius
2.) Rogal Dorn
3.) Omegon
4.) Fulgrim
5.) Leman Russ

 dusara217 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

What? Sanguinius is the most like the Emperor in every way, aside from the wings. He's go the Emperor's looks, close combat prowess, foresight, etc.

His point still stands though, Horus was the favored son. That is, mostly, the basis for why I don't think any of them are incorruptible.

Oh, yeah, NOBODY is incorruptable. You get the right people/daemons in the right place for the right amount of time, and just about anybody would fall to Chaos. The biggest issue that I have with the Horus Heresy is that when the Chaos Gods (who are supposedly tens of millions of years old) somehow went about it in a completely idiotic manner. I mean, seriously, all that they would have to do is get people like Erebus and the Slaaneshi Daemon in Fulgrim with all of the Primarchs. Then, what you have to do is have a few of them die in battle, and a few of them revealed as traitors and executed; allowing for the roughly half-and-half result on the Legions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As far as incorruptibility in Primarchs, I'd rank it:
1.) Sanguinius
2.) Rogal Dorn
3.) Omegon
4.) Fulgrim
5.) Leman Russ

But the Chaos Gods didn't want to destroy the Imperium, just shake things up.

Second, wasn't Sanguinius the next favorite for Chaos Primarch?

 jreilly89 wrote:
But the Chaos Gods didn't want to destroy the Imperium, just shake things up.

Second, wasn't Sanguinius the next favorite for Chaos Primarch?

See my posts above

 jreilly89 wrote:
Lion El. If not the least, I think he would be one of the least susceptible to Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Lion El'Johnson. His loyalty to the Emperor is absolute, he lacks true ambition, and there is nothing he truly desires beyond service to the Emperor.

Sanguinius also ranks there, but I'm not sure due to the Red Thirst.

Are you fething slowed? *deep breaths* *deep breaths*

By the end of Fallen Angels, the Lion was already jockeying for position; he wanted to be Warmaster. The Lion wanted with a desperate want of wantness to be Warmaster, and he clearly thought that he was better than his brothers. While nobody can question his loyalty to the Emperor, the Lion's ambition is powerful and pulsating; much like a human heart.

Ambition =\= immediate fall to Chaos. Besides, Guilliman had just as much ambition as Lion El

As i recall, you said, and I may be wrong here,"he lacks true ambition, and there is nothing he truly desires beyond service to the Emperor". In case you think I'm lying, the quote is right above this text. In case you think I changed the text, check your original post.


Also, ambition does not mean immediate fall to Chaos, but it IS a good foothold for corruption; a foot in the door if you will.

 dusara217 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Lion El. If not the least, I think he would be one of the least susceptible to Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Lion El'Johnson. His loyalty to the Emperor is absolute, he lacks true ambition, and there is nothing he truly desires beyond service to the Emperor.

Sanguinius also ranks there, but I'm not sure due to the Red Thirst.

Are you fething slowed? *deep breaths* *deep breaths*

By the end of Fallen Angels, the Lion was already jockeying for position; he wanted to be Warmaster. The Lion wanted with a desperate want of wantness to be Warmaster, and he clearly thought that he was better than his brothers. While nobody can question his loyalty to the Emperor, the Lion's ambition is powerful and pulsating; much like a human heart.

Ambition =\= immediate fall to Chaos. Besides, Guilliman had just as much ambition as Lion El

As i recall, you said, and I may be wrong here,"he lacks true ambition, and there is nothing he truly desires beyond service to the Emperor". In case you think I'm lying, the quote is right above this text. In case you think I changed the text, check your original post.


Also, ambition does not mean immediate fall to Chaos, but it IS a good foothold for corruption; a foot in the door if you will.

Uh, wrong guy...

Don't get me wrong, I agree about the foothold, but Lion El was not the only one with Ambition or Pride

 dusara217 wrote:

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
Lion El'Johnson. His loyalty to the Emperor is absolute, he lacks true ambition, and there is nothing he truly desires beyond service to the Emperor.

Sanguinius also ranks there, but I'm not sure due to the Red Thirst.

Are you fething slowed? *deep breaths* *deep breaths*

By the end of Fallen Angels, the Lion was already jockeying for position; he wanted to be Warmaster. The Lion wanted with a desperate want of wantness to be Warmaster, and he clearly thought that he was better than his brothers. While nobody can question his loyalty to the Emperor, the Lion's ambition is powerful and pulsating; much like a human heart.

Actually, that information is taken from "The Primarch's", where a Great Demon of Tzeentch has nothing to offer Lion, and makes reference to his ambition being limited (Warmaster), rather then some of the other Primarchs who's goal was power for the sake of power. Lion was quite content to serve under the Emperor, and did not feel the need to constantly expand his power (hence 'true ambition').

Hope that clears it up.

Can we take anything a Greater Demon of Tzeentch says as anything of value though?

Maybe he was trying to force more ambition into the Lion to start him on his path to chaos?

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Can we take anything a Greater Demon of Tzeentch says as anything of value though?

Maybe he was trying to force more ambition into the Lion to start him on his path to chaos?

Reference? If we're gonna start inferring on the intentions of a Daemon with no evidence, I'm out. The way the lore is written, we essentially have to take what he says at face value.

Isn't Sanguinius a mutant and already tainted by chaos?

So although he was probably the most loyal or pure of the primarch's the imperium's stance on chaos and mutants would have left him with plenty of reasons betray it.

Hence why I picked Vulkan over him.

Taffy17 wrote:
Isn't Sanguinius a mutant and already tainted by chaos?

So although he was probably the most loyal or pure of the primarch's the imperium's stance on chaos and mutants would have left him with plenty of reasons betray it.

Hence why I picked Vulkan over him.

Its never stated whether the wings were a mutation or if the Emperor created him that way. Considering how the Emperor didn't skip a beat when first encountering Sanguinius I'm inclined to believe that he always had the wings.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Can we take anything a Greater Demon of Tzeentch says as anything of value though?

Maybe he was trying to force more ambition into the Lion to start him on his path to chaos?

Reference? If we're gonna start inferring on the intentions of a Daemon with no evidence, I'm out. The way the lore is written, we essentially have to take what he says at face value.

I disagree, Tzeentch is heavily portrayed as a manipulator, a liar. The way the lore is written, we SHOULD doubt anything a Tzeentch daemon says.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
3 Lion El Johnson pawns, attempting to cover up the truth.

I almost didn't him on there, but I thought, "Surely, there aren't people that'd actually vote for him, right?"

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Rogal Dorn. He seems to have been made with the same attributes as the Custodes and his loyalty to the Emperor is placed above all else.

His pain fetish though could have put him over the edge. Too much masochism and he could have fallen to Slaanesh before he vanished into thin air.

Also, I'd have to say a tie between Sanguinius and Vulkan. Vulkan is a genuine humanitarian and the fire in his belly burns for one purpose and that purpose only- the protection of the meek. The only way I could see him falling to Chaos is if he believed he found definite proof that civilian life would be better under Chaos then under the Emperor, and there's a fat chance of that ever happening. As for Sanguinius, he's SPEEESSS Jesus.

Yea, I'm going with Vulkan on this one. The Salamanders are just all around nice guys whereas the Blood Angels have always had a bloodthirsty side to them. And while Sanguinius was ultimately incorruptible, he did have close brushes with Chaos.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
3 Lion El Johnson pawns, attempting to cover up the truth.

I almost didn't him on there, but I thought, "Surely, there aren't people that'd actually vote for him, right?"

Why? If Angron and Fulgrim can fall along with Mortarion, Curze, Lorgar and Horus, why shouldn't he be on the list? As it stands, he didn't fall to Chaos and actually fought against it.

Lots of support for Sanguinius on this thread, and while I agree that he's a pretty cool dude, I can actually see a rather compelling way for him to fall.

Sanguinius' weakness is that he cares about people. The Emperor is cold and ruthless. This could very easily put them at odds. Sangy also has the issue with all his sons suffering the Black Rage. If Sangy were brought far enough into despair, he could be corrupted through his desire to save his legion/humanity from destruction.

This fall would be a lot closer to what actually happened to Magnus than a purely ego-driven fall like Perturabo's or Fulgrim's. I could see Vulkan falling for the same reason. Magnus, Horus, and, to a lesser extent, Alpharus, were all corrupted through their desires to help people.

As for the Primarch least likely to fall, I have to go with Dorn. He was loyal and modest to a fault. Corax held a lot of hate towards Horus, and while that would make siding with him unlikely, it could still lead to corruption. He's also a lot like Curze in some ways. And Guilleman was ambitious and prideful. Even before he started throwing his weight around when the Emp was put on life support, he was putting down his brothers left and right for no real reason and convinced of his own superiority.

In fact, a lot of the loyalist/traitor primarchs are mirrors of each other: Sanguinius/Horus, Corax/Curze, Guilleman/Fulgrim, Angron/Russ, Mortarion/Lion El'Johnson. Those are just the ones that stick out to me. You might be able to pair all of them up this way.

 fallinq wrote:
Lots of support for Sanguinius on this thread, and while I agree that he's a pretty cool dude, I can actually see a rather compelling way for him to fall.

Sanguinius' weakness is that he cares about people. The Emperor is cold and ruthless. This could very easily put them at odds. Sangy also has the issue with all his sons suffering the Black Rage. If Sangy were brought far enough into despair, he could be corrupted through his desire to save his legion/humanity from destruction.

This fall would be a lot closer to what actually happened to Magnus than a purely ego-driven fall like Perturabo's or Fulgrim's. I could see Vulkan falling for the same reason. Magnus, Horus, and, to a lesser extent, Alpharus, were all corrupted through their desires to help people.

As for the Primarch least likely to fall, I have to go with Dorn. He was loyal and modest to a fault. Corax held a lot of hate towards Horus, and while that would make siding with him unlikely, it could still lead to corruption. He's also a lot like Curze in some ways. And Guilleman was ambitious and prideful. Even before he started throwing his weight around when the Emp was put on life support, he was putting down his brothers left and right for no real reason and convinced of his own superiority.

In fact, a lot of the loyalist/traitor primarchs are mirrors of each other: Sanguinius/Horus, Corax/Curze, Guilleman/Fulgrim, Angron/Russ, Mortarion/Lion El'Johnson. Those are just the ones that stick out to me. You might be able to pair all of them up this way.

You can, though I'd say that it's Russ/Magnus (both were Psykers, but one lied about it due to societal conditionong), who hated each other to an fault and were the antithesis of each other.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
3 Lion El Johnson pawns, attempting to cover up the truth.

I almost didn't him on there, but I thought, "Surely, there aren't people that'd actually vote for him, right?"

Its just plain beautiful every time this debate sparks, and I love seeing the anger about it.

 dusara217 wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
Lots of support for Sanguinius on this thread, and while I agree that he's a pretty cool dude, I can actually see a rather compelling way for him to fall.

Sanguinius' weakness is that he cares about people. The Emperor is cold and ruthless. This could very easily put them at odds. Sangy also has the issue with all his sons suffering the Black Rage. If Sangy were brought far enough into despair, he could be corrupted through his desire to save his legion/humanity from destruction.

This fall would be a lot closer to what actually happened to Magnus than a purely ego-driven fall like Perturabo's or Fulgrim's. I could see Vulkan falling for the same reason. Magnus, Horus, and, to a lesser extent, Alpharus, were all corrupted through their desires to help people.

As for the Primarch least likely to fall, I have to go with Dorn. He was loyal and modest to a fault. Corax held a lot of hate towards Horus, and while that would make siding with him unlikely, it could still lead to corruption. He's also a lot like Curze in some ways. And Guilleman was ambitious and prideful. Even before he started throwing his weight around when the Emp was put on life support, he was putting down his brothers left and right for no real reason and convinced of his own superiority.

In fact, a lot of the loyalist/traitor primarchs are mirrors of each other: Sanguinius/Horus, Corax/Curze, Guilleman/Fulgrim, Angron/Russ, Mortarion/Lion El'Johnson. Those are just the ones that stick out to me. You might be able to pair all of them up this way.

You can, though I'd say that it's Russ/Magnus (both were Psykers, but one lied about it due to societal conditionong), who hated each other to an fault and were the antithesis of each other.

But when I'm looking for mirrors, I'm not looking for primarch's antitheses, I'm looking for primarchs who are very similar in temperament, strengths, and weaknesses. It's very useful for questions like this. So Magnus/Russ wouldn't fit the bill, because, while they were both psykers, they were opposites in personality and interests. Magnus was a calm, logical guy who valued knowledge above all else and was willing to make compromises and be dishonest to get what he wanted (going underground with his legion's sorcery, rather than be openly rebellious when it was outlawed). Russ valued emotions far more than knowledge, had problems with authority and anger issues, and considered giving his word a sacred bond. What's going to cause one to fall won't apply to the other.

This is the same reason I wouldn't put Perturabo as the Chaos version of Dorn. They both get lumped together a lot because they're the "siege guys" and hated each other, but Dorn's self-persecution over even his tiny failures is the exact opposite of Perturabo's "WHY'S EVERYONE DUMPING ON ME?! I DESERVE BETTER!" attitude.

Who would you put for Dorn, then? Perturabo I can see being a lot like Angron in that he was fethed over by the Imperium during the entire Great Crusade

 dusara217 wrote:
Who would you put for Dorn, then? Perturabo I can see being a lot like Angron in that he was fethed over by the Imperium during the entire Great Crusade

Yeah, but both Angron and Perturabo are both traitors. I'm looking for loyalist/traitor comparisons. Shadow archetypes, if you will.

The more I think about it, the more I match Dorn with Lorgar. I kind of feel like they both have this deep seated insecurity and self loathing that they mask with fanatical devotion to some higher power or goal.

I think Dorn does pair with Perturabo. Extermination has a whole little section about how theyre basically two sides of the same coin, not just because they're siege guys.

However I also think they don't really pair up at all, you can kind of make quite a few pairings based on quite arbitrary categories, and I think they're all complex characters in their own right.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I think Dorn does pair with Perturabo. Extermination has a whole little section about how theyre basically two sides of the same coin, not just because they're siege guys.

However I also think they don't really pair up at all, you can kind of make quite a few pairings based on quite arbitrary categories, and I think they're all complex characters in their own right.

I tend to agree. there are some vague surface similarties but each of the primarchs was also quite differnt

Hmm... I'd hesitate to call any "Incorruptible", but some are less likely than others.

~ Leman Russ
The man has anger management issues, authority issues, and an ego the size of a mature fenrisian Kraken. Not to mention he could be lead around by the nose into doing things that a manipulator wanted him to do (like assaulting Prospero) and was very ready to spill legion blood. Definitely corruptible

Ferrus Manus
The silver hands doesn't necessarily translate to warp immunity. C'Tan have issues with the warp but the Necrodermis is ultimately just (sophisticated) metal - it's what's inside that doesn't like psykers. Fulgrim reckoned he could be turned but then Fulgrim, more than any other primarch, is a steaming Imbecille. Certainly had no reason to be corrupted as - almost uniquely - he had no particular Dark Secret (tm) or similar curse, and was universally considered fairly honest, if short-tempered - possibly manipulated by the latter (in fact, he was - the reason he died at Istvaan is that he was too obsessed with what Fulgrim and Horus had done to think intelligently) but not to the extent of Russ or Angron.

Vulkan
Probalby not. A genuinely good man - so if corrupted, it would probably have been as a counter to the brutality of the Imperium (which, on the front line of the crusades, he wouldn't have seen).

Rogal Dorn
Unlikely, but possible - see Nemesis; as with Vulkan and Sanguinius, Dorn is loyal to the Imperium and Humanity above even his loyalty to the Emperor (Valdor, by comparison, doesn't see any distinction between the two). Despite his stone face, he has a human heart - which is why Peturabo knows he can breach the palace ("He won't have turned the palace into a fortress perfectly because he's want to put it all back"), and unfortunately for the Emperor, many parts of the Imperium aren't good for humanity.

Roboute Guilliman
Very corruptible. He has a very human character and has some of the closest friendships with astartes and humans. Plus Ultramar. Suppose the Imperium had determined that his personal vest-pocket empire being answerable to him before Terra was a seditious idea, and had tried to take action? Especially if, for example, his "mother" had been killed in the process?

Sanguinius
As an individual - as noted, he's space jesus. The flaw is there, and provides an 'in' - more for his legion than for him, though. I'll be honest - I'd trust Lorgar's absolute opinion even if you think Horus is just being an egotist.

Lion El'jonson
Absolutely loyal to the Emperor. Which means he's allowed to do things which in no way fit that description (like using proscribed technology, disobeying his own sworn oath at nikea, etc, etc). Also ambitious (wanting support to be the 'next' warmaster). Also a lousy judge of people. All told, not a great candidate for "hey, do you want to betray the emperor?" corruption (like Angron) but a prime target for "holy crap, I'm a traitor and didn't realise until too late!" like Magnus.

Jaghatai Khan
Well, he's a bit of a mystery to everyone. Which is kind of the point.

Corax
The one I'd point at as least likely, for two reasons. Firstly, he's one of the few genuinely 'good people' amongst the primarchs, but at the same time is already aware what hive-scum life is like in the imperium (he's lived it). More importantly, it's heavily hinted that he's a pariah - the invisibility trick, his avowed lack of psychic powers (which most primarchs have, at least at an instinctive level) and above all his ability to see 'revalation' rather than the emperor.
If I had to plump for one of them, I'd say Corax.

The lion he is like Stannis, he'll break before he bends

After taking on curze he went to Ultramar willing to end Gulliman and the ultramarines if they dared turn on the emperor

He deals in absolute

 mitch_rifle wrote:
The lion...
He deals in absolute

those who deal in absolutes tend to be problems waiting to happen though as they don't handle comprimise well

I actually believe the Lion has a credible defense here in that Chaos tried and found it had absolutely nothing to offer him. The gods of whim and fancy could not, for the literal life of them, think of one thing this sociopath could want.

Some of you seem to be mistaking high-functioning sociopathy with warp-taint.

It's my personal belief that the Lion knew about Chaos the whole time from his early years on Caliban. The Knights of Lupus basically worshiped Chaos and tried their best to keep the Chaos Daemons from being exterminated, and had a fething HUGE garganturan massive miles-high library regarding everything they knew in the universe - especially Chaos. The Lion preserved this library for further study, so it seems to me that he knew about Chaos and how to control it the whole time - you may note that Luther learned runecraft from this Library and this library was basically how Luther first contacted the forces of Chaos.

Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

The Knights of Lupus had friggin Chaos Runes in their library. They knew how to actually control the Great Beasts, they knew about the Greater Daemon that was trapped on the planet, and they understood the nature of the Beasts, which also allowed for them to control the Beasts through Runecraft.

natpri771 wrote:
Corax, he cares more about helping people than anything that could lead them to fall to chaos. Corax was also the only Primarch who hated Horus with a passion. This was due to Horus trying to take control of his legion and the assault on gate 42, where Horus and Perturabo used the Raven Guard as cannon fodder.

This.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mitch_rifle wrote:
The lion he is like Stannis, he'll break before he bends

After taking on curze he went to Ultramar willing to end Gulliman and the ultramarines if they dared turn on the emperor

He deals in absolute

Horrible comparrison. Stannis did a lot of bending. Going as far as changing religion and sending a shadow demon to assassinate his brother. Or maybe it is a better comparrison than I firrst thought......hmmmm.

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

The Knights of Lupus had friggin Chaos Runes in their library. They knew how to actually control the Great Beasts, they knew about the Greater Daemon that was trapped on the planet, and they understood the nature of the Beasts, which also allowed for them to control the Beasts through Runecraft.

Okay seriously I don't know why you get so worked up in your posts, I was literally just asking, because I didn't know. I haven't read the two DA books so from my limited grasp I just thought they thought they were native beasts.

Ferrus Manus, because

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ferus Manus. If the rumours about his hands being Living Metal are true, that's a built-in anti-warp-taint device right there.

and because he's just too damn stubborn to change his mind on anything, let alone something as drastic as the Emperor!

 ImAGeek wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

The Knights of Lupus had friggin Chaos Runes in their library. They knew how to actually control the Great Beasts, they knew about the Greater Daemon that was trapped on the planet, and they understood the nature of the Beasts, which also allowed for them to control the Beasts through Runecraft.

Okay seriously I don't know why you get so worked up in your posts, I was literally just asking, because I didn't know. I haven't read the two DA books so from my limited grasp I just thought they thought they were native beasts.

Did I come across as worked up? I was using "friggin" and capital letters as a means of emphasizing certain words, because i'm too lazy to use bold and italics. I'm actually quite calm.

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Did they know the beasts were chaos beasts though? Surely they'd have just thought they were native wildlife.

The Knights of Lupus had friggin Chaos Runes in their library. They knew how to actually control the Great Beasts, they knew about the Greater Daemon that was trapped on the planet, and they understood the nature of the Beasts, which also allowed for them to control the Beasts through Runecraft.

Okay seriously I don't know why you get so worked up in your posts, I was literally just asking, because I didn't know. I haven't read the two DA books so from my limited grasp I just thought they thought they were native beasts.

Did I come across as worked up? I was using "friggin" and capital letters as a means of emphasizing certain words, because i'm too lazy to use bold and italics. I'm actually quite calm.

It's not just that post, it's a general trend with your posts.

IMO, Guilliman was the least likely to fall. His head rules his heart, moreso than any other primarch. Guilliman would look at Chaos as dispassionately as any other subject and calmly calculate that the costs significantly outweigh the benefits.

 Manchu wrote:
IMO, Guilliman was the least likely to fall. His head rules his heart, moreso than any other primarch. Guilliman would look at Chaos as dispassionately as any other subject and calmly calculate that the costs significantly outweigh the benefits.

Shh, you can't speak positively about Ultramarines around here, they'll kill you for such heresy!

For what its worth though, I totally agree. He was the most level-headed of the bunch and his key aspect that the Chaos Gods might've fed on would be pride/duty.

Yep, that is how they got Horus after all. But Horus seems like a more emotional version of Guilliman.

 Manchu wrote:
Yep, that is how they got Horus after all. But Horus seems like a more emotional version of Guilliman.

... and a smarter one. Being led on a goose-chase around the galaxy by Alpha Legion while Terra burned was probably the single greatest failing during the Heresy that any of the loyalist Primarchs made, past the Lion sitting on his butt twiddling his thumbs in the same time frame.

How about driving Magnus to join Horus while Terra burned? That was pretty bad, too.

Horus was not necessarily smarter than Guilliman. The main difference between them in Horus's favor, and the reason the Emperor probably made him Warmaster rather than Guilliman, is that Horus had the charisma to inspire Primarchs. Not so much with Guilliman.

Yeah I don't think Horus was smarter than Guillaman. We don't know much about what was happening with the UM later in the heresy yet, there may be a perfectly good reason for that. In KNF it says Guillimqn wasn't made the Warmaster because he didn't get on with his bros, he says he always felt like he had to be apologetic for how successful hed been, and it made it awkward. He had like 4 friends out of 17 brothers. Horus got on with basically anyone.

The Lion couse hes too busy sleeping.

agdog91 wrote:
The Lion couse hes too busy sleeping.

*waiting to see who was winning before he threw his cards in.

 Manchu wrote:
IMO, Guilliman was the least likely to fall. His head rules his heart, moreso than any other primarch. Guilliman would look at Chaos as dispassionately as any other subject and calmly calculate that the costs significantly outweigh the benefits.

The Lion is known for being practically emotionless, cold, and calculating. Guilliman, on the other hand, is as warm emotional as a kind father in comparison.

Saint Sanguinius was the most noble and worthy of all of the primarchs, by far-- even by the words of the fellow primarchs themselves.

I think he was also the furthest from falling, as well. None of them were incorruptible, but he was by far the least.

Guilliman was the most human.

This is a problem, since his bros were largely not-human. He got along with pretty much all the sensible military and more human brothers. It makes sense that he was best buds with Dorn, admired Sanguinius (like everyone else), had respect for the Lion, who was an intellectual and confident leader, Ferrus who was a fair but demanding guy, while having respect for the Khan who handled being a warrior with dignity.

The others?
Horus was a show-off, but Guilliman respected his accomplishments.
Fulgrim was an fop with obvious issues.
Lorgar and Magnus were mystics, recluses and weirdos.
Conrad was a murdering ass.
Angron was a murdering ass.
Russ is an animal who keeps trying to be a big man. The Khan was at least reserved.
Mortarion was a distant, cold jerk.
Alpharius always was trying to be clever and mysterious for it's own sake.
Perturabo was a brooding ass prone to stupid rages.
Corax and Vulkan just did their own thing.

Sanguinius was not 'furthest from falling'. He was almost sort of guilted into it, with all of that red angel nonsense.

With no external conditions, I would say Vulkan. He is strong, stubborn, and bowed down the the Emperor even after he won against him. Vulkan, and the Salamanders, care too much about the people they serve to put them in jeopardy, making him a bad fit for Khorne or Slaanesh. Also, the Promethean Cult would reject Tzeentch's scheming and the corruption of Nurgle.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would place Leman Russ second, because he does not bow down to anyone (besides the Emperor). While the Space Wolves are rebellious, they would go Renegade instead of Chaos.

 ImAGeek wrote:
he says he always felt like he had to be apologetic for how successful hed been

"SORRY I'M SO AWESOME HATERZ LOLOLOLOL"

How could they not like him?

 dusara217 wrote:
The Lion is known for being practically emotionless, cold, and calculating.

Tell that to Luther.

 Melissia wrote:
most noble and worthy

Let's face it, Vulkan is just as noble but nowhere near as pretty. I guess blondes do have more fun (even when they have raven tresses). Guilliman agrees with you by the way, or so he said.

 Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:
With no external conditions, I would say Vulkan.

Like Sanguinius, his compassion could be twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

 Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:
I would place Leman Russ second, because he does not bow down to anyone (besides the Emperor)

The same could be said of Horus.

Killionaire wrote:Guilliman was the most human.

This is a problem, since his bros were largely not-human. He got along with pretty much all the sensible military and more human brothers. It makes sense that he was best buds with Dorn, admired Sanguinius (like everyone else), had respect for the Lion, who was an intellectual and confident leader, Ferrus who was a fair but demanding guy, while having respect for the Khan who handled being a warrior with dignity.

The others?
Horus was a show-off, but Guilliman respected his accomplishments.
Fulgrim was an fop with obvious issues.
Lorgar and Magnus were mystics, recluses and weirdos.
Conrad was a murdering ass.
Angron was a murdering ass.
Russ is an animal who keeps trying to be a big man. The Khan was at least reserved.
Mortarion was a distant, cold jerk.
Alpharius always was trying to be clever and mysterious for it's own sake.
Perturabo was a brooding ass prone to stupid rages.
Corax and Vulkan just did their own thing.

Sanguinius was not 'furthest from falling'. He was almost sort of guilted into it, with all of that red angel nonsense.

Vulkan or Sanguinius were probably the most human. Vulkan is a well known humanitarian and very caring, and Sanguinius just is very human.

dusara217 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
IMO, Guilliman was the least likely to fall. His head rules his heart, moreso than any other primarch. Guilliman would look at Chaos as dispassionately as any other subject and calmly calculate that the costs significantly outweigh the benefits.

The Lion is known for being practically emotionless, cold, and calculating. Guilliman, on the other hand, is as warm emotional as a kind father in comparison.

Guilliman is said in KNF to be very hard to warm to, is actually fairly cold and analytical.

True. Vulkan was noble. But correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't as accomplished.

And Manchu, I guess they don't like him
Because of how successful he was? He had 500 worlds under his control, and the second best (I think, after the Luna Wolves) record for compliances. He was what they all should've been. That's why Guilliman was chosen to rebuke Lorgar, to set an example, although that misfired. So I guess he was like the more successful brother you don't really like. His only proper friends were Horus, Sanguinius, Dorn and another who I forget.

I feel like Vulkan would do almost anything to save a large number of innocents though. If the right situation arose by Tzeentch (like, take up this daemon blade or 5 worlds will die kinda thing), Vulkan would gladly give himself up to save them.

But that's just how noble as hell he is.

 ImAGeek wrote:
So I guess he was like the more successful brother you don't really like.

I don't buy it. The glory of Horus was more splendorous.

I think they didn't like Guilliman because he embodied everything about their father that chafed them while Horus embodied everything about their father that they admired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Vulkan would gladly give himself up to save them.

Sounds like a deal Nurgle would make, actually.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Yep, that is how they got Horus after all. But Horus seems like a more emotional version of Guilliman.

... and a smarter one. Being led on a goose-chase around the galaxy by Alpha Legion while Terra burned was probably the single greatest failing during the Heresy that any of the loyalist Primarchs made, past the Lion sitting on his butt twiddling his thumbs in the same time frame.

Yep, destroying the Night Lords = sitting on his butt. Reading the lore is hard, right?

 Manchu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
So I guess he was like the more successful brother you don't really like.

I don't buy it. The glory of Horus was more splendorous.

I think they didn't like Guilliman because he embodied everything about their father that chafed them while Horus embodied everything about their father that they admired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Vulkan would gladly give himself up to save them.

Sounds like a deal Nurgle would make, actually.

I guess horus was just more likeable then. Have you read Know No Fear? It explains it all pretty well, I can't really remember the details though.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Yep, that is how they got Horus after all. But Horus seems like a more emotional version of Guilliman.

... and a smarter one. Being led on a goose-chase around the galaxy by Alpha Legion while Terra burned was probably the single greatest failing during the Heresy that any of the loyalist Primarchs made, past the Lion sitting on his butt twiddling his thumbs in the same time frame.

Yep, destroying the Night Lords = sitting on his butt. Reading the lore is hard, right?

Getting smart at people for debating the backstory behind small plastic figures. The joy these forums bring to me know no end.

Alright alright, back on-topic now folks.

Just because Primarch A was clever doesn't make Primarch B dumb, after all.

On the flipside of things.

I think of all the loyalists, Russ was the most likely. He was right on the edge of Khorne-dom and easily played left and right to make Magnus join Chaos. If the Chaos Gods really wanted him and they had more time, they could've easily got him to flip.

Also I just hate Russ as a Magnus fan. Russ was the biggest hypocrite. "Sorcery is bad! But these are runepriests! "Mutations are bad! These are Wulfen!"

Pfft.. Space Furries.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
On the flipside of things.

I think of all the loyalists, Russ was the most likely. He was right on the edge of Khorne-dom and easily played left and right to make Magnus join Chaos. If the Chaos Gods really wanted him and they had more time, they could've easily got him to flip.

Also I just hate Russ as a Magnus fan. Russ was the biggest hypocrite. "Sorcery is bad! But these are runepriests! "Mutations are bad! These are Wulfen!"

Pfft.. Space Furries.

As a Space Pup hater, I totally agree. I also think BA are one bad day away from being Khorney's. Genetic freaks

"SORRY I'M SO AWESOME HATERZ LOLOLOLOL"

How could they not like him?

it sounds a bit odd but I think I understand the actual idea of akwardness due to his sucesses and having to be apologetic for it. Ever had friends whom just wheren't as sucessful as you? whom you needed to be careful when talking about your sucesses for fear of annoying them? I imagine that was the problem Gulliman had (only worse cause primarchs tend to be pretty extreme) it does explain his friends as well, Horus, Sanguins, Dorn, all the more sucessful primarchs. the ones whom wouldn't instantly become envious of his sucesses if he happened to mention "so I'm having some problems incorperating the 40 worlds I brought under compliance last month"

But, again, Horus was more successful than Guilliman and got along well with the others. So maybe the problem was with Guilliman rather than everyone else.

Yeah the problem was Guilliman, that's what I meant from the start, sorry if that wasn't very clear. He didn't get on with his brothers because he felt awkward for how successful he'd been, and I guess didn't know how to act around them, where as Horus made you forget he was more successful than you.

So it's not that he's awkward because he's so successful. He's just awkward.

One issue is that Guilliman was more successful than even Horus in a number of ways. Horus may have conquered more worlds, but Guilliman made more productive worlds, with zero internal unrest, and huge industrial/manpower outputs.

He also had the most marines, trained to the highest standards (much better per-soldier it's suggested than the iron warriors and word bearers for example).

His human modesty is a lot more normal than the Lion's brooding distance for example. His methods worked, and were building a much better Imperium than whatever Curze, Alpharius and Perturabo were doing.

He didn't really seem to have beef with Russ, Khan or Magnus, who while he may not have liked, weren't really messing things up. They were doing a specific purpose, like hunting down particularly nasty enemies. But Curze and Angron were definitely just making things worse.

--

Horus getting along with everyone was because he was flashy. He was an adventurer, who was personally very involved with war, and neurotic about post-war lack of glory.

Guilliman was a statesman, who was happy to build the best planets and imperium possible, and knew that doing stuff like that would always land a job. So he didn't really care so much about glory, or even seeking the approval of his crazier brothers. He's also probably awkward because unlike everyone else, he had a /Mom/, and a Dad who was actually a really good guy who he looked up to, before Empy showed up. (Almost) everyone else either had no parents but a tribe/group raising them, animal parents, or evil parents who had to die.

Yeah, but the success doesn't help

And yeah Killionaire I agree that he's probably overall more successful than Horus.

I think he did like Russ, I think Russ was one of his 'Dauntless Few', four Primarchs who he thought if he worked with any of them they could win any war. Ferrus was definitely one, I can't remember the others. And he likes the Khan too, he just doesn't think he's overly reliable.

I really like Guillaman haha.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
On the flipside of things.

I think of all the loyalists, Russ was the most likely. He was right on the edge of Khorne-dom and easily played left and right to make Magnus join Chaos. If the Chaos Gods really wanted him and they had more time, they could've easily got him to flip.

Also I just hate Russ as a Magnus fan. Russ was the biggest hypocrite. "Sorcery is bad! But these are runepriests! "Mutations are bad! These are Wulfen!"

Pfft.. Space Furries.

As a Space Pup hater, I totally agree. I also think BA are one bad day away from being Khorney's. Genetic freaks

Seconded, I feel like Sanguinus was also pretty close, while he was the most pure supposedly he was also secretive and I'd expect the flaw would be exploitable by his foes.

 Melissia wrote:
True. Vulkan was noble. But correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't as accomplished.

He's more accomplished then Sanguinius. Baal is still a radioactive godforsaken wasteland. Vulkan meanwhile actually managed to improve his deathworld- kicking out the Dark Eldar, and I think he may have had a hand in building the seven citadels.

 Vulkan's Forgemaster wrote:
With no external conditions, I would say Vulkan. He is strong, stubborn, and bowed down the the Emperor even after he won against him. Vulkan, and the Salamanders, care too much about the people they serve to put them in jeopardy, making him a bad fit for Khorne or Slaanesh. Also, the Promethean Cult would reject Tzeentch's scheming and the corruption of Nurgle.

This is why I chose Vulkan.

Humility is a rare trait among the primarchs... especially in one who actually managed to beat the Emperor at something.

He only beat the emperor because th emperor let him win. He found his salamander but was about to fall in a crevasse of lava, the Emperor through his (bigger) salamander away to help Vulkan up.

Yep I agree with the polls it has to be between Vulkan and Sang...

.

Take it easy there, dusara217.

On topic:

The poll results aren't too convincing. Rogal Dorn is in third and he is probably the loyalist most likely to fall.

And while no once can argue about the nobility of Sanguinius and Vulkan, a warm heart is by no means Chaos-proof.

Durasa that's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I said about the tone of your posts earlier.

Why is Dorn most likely to fall..? At the weekender they said he's basically incorruptable.

I don't mean that he would ever turn against the Emperor. But in his despair after the Emperor's incapacity, he nearly turned against the Imperium.

For more, see here.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
True. Vulkan was noble. But correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't as accomplished.

He's more accomplished then Sanguinius. Baal is still a radioactive godforsaken wasteland. Vulkan meanwhile actually managed to improve his deathworld- kicking out the Dark Eldar, and I think he may have had a hand in building the seven citadels.

It's not like Sanguinius could have just taken a magic vacuum and sucked out all the radiation. The only thing that can get rid of radiation is time, and lots of it. As long as the radiation was there, the wasteland would remain because there is no way for plants to evolve and grow when they are being irradiated and die wholesale.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't mean that he would ever turn against the Emperor. But in his despair after the Emperor's incapacity, he nearly turned against the Imperium.

For more, see here.

Yeah, I can kinda see it I guess. But that's what the guys at FW said, I dunno if they meant incorruptible as in was very unlikely to fall to chaos, or very unlikely to turn from the Emperor. As in, I dunno if the incorruptible extends after the Emps death.

Several primarchs washed up on ravaged planets and really turned things around: Vulkan, Fulgrim, the Lion, Corax, even Curze and Mortarion after their own fashion. Not so with Sanguinius, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@IAG: I estimate the probability of Dorn directly/consciously betraying the Emperor in any case whatsoever to be 0%. It's exactly that kind of inflexibility, however, that is twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

This makes a lot of sense and in the end look at what it took to turn him away from the Emperor. It took an blade of chaos to turn him from the path and into the light of darkness. He had even tired of Erebus from the sounds of the books....

I'd say Ferrus Manus because he was afflicted with what was most-likely necrodermis which is Warp-retardant and he operates almost entirely on logic and rationality (the only time I can recall him losing his temper was when Fulgrim betrayed him) For him, the most logical choice would be to serve the Emperor. That, and him and the Iron Hands operate on the basis of 'survival of the fittest' and they will gladly destroy any weaknesses they have, and that would extend to vulnerability to corruption. If anyone had the risk of succumbing to Chaos/sold their souls to Chaos, the Iron Hands will destroy them without mercy to keep the taint from spreading (refer to the Purging of Contqual)

 Manchu wrote:
Several primarchs washed up on ravaged planets and really turned things around: Vulkan, Fulgrim, the Lion, Corax, even Curze and Mortarion after their own fashion. Not so with Sanguinius, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@IAG: I estimate the probability of Dorn directly/consciously betraying the Emperor in any case whatsoever to be 0%. It's exactly that kind of inflexibility, however, that is twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

Vulkan landed on a world covered in volcanoes, which don't erupt 24/7; not a world covered in radiation 24/7
Fulgrim landed on a depleted, sun-starved mining world, not an irradiated wasteland where you can die from a morning walk in the sun
The Lion landed on a lush, forested feudal world, which had many small cities and townships alongside thousands of Knightly Orders which kept the Chaos Daemons at bay, not Space Fallout, where a few dozen thousand tribals were the entire population of the entire planet.
Corax landed on an oppressed world and became Space Batman, not Radiation Land where he became Gamma Man
Curze landed on an oppressed world and became Space Assassin's Creed, not Radiation Land where his people would die should they even prick their fingers
Mortarion landed on Necro-World, where he became Space Braveheart, not Radiation Land, where the dead were too irradiated to even become zombies.

You get the picture? Sanguinius landed on the one world where there was absolutely zero chance of him creating a paradise, and the best that he was able to do was create a prosperous society that worshiped him as a God (see: Space Jesus).

 dusara217 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Several primarchs washed up on ravaged planets and really turned things around: Vulkan, Fulgrim, the Lion, Corax, even Curze and Mortarion after their own fashion. Not so with Sanguinius, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@IAG: I estimate the probability of Dorn directly/consciously betraying the Emperor in any case whatsoever to be 0%. It's exactly that kind of inflexibility, however, that is twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

Vulkan landed on a world covered in volcanoes, which don't erupt 24/7; not a world covered in radiation 24/7
Fulgrim landed on a depleted, sun-starved mining world, not an irradiated wasteland where you can die from a morning walk in the sun
The Lion landed on a lush, forested feudal world, which had many small cities and townships alongside thousands of Knightly Orders which kept the Chaos Daemons at bay, not Space Fallout, where a few dozen thousand tribals were the entire population of the entire planet.
Corax landed on an oppressed world and became Space Batman, not Radiation Land where he became Gamma Man
Curze landed on an oppressed world and became Space Assassin's Creed, not Radiation Land where his people would die should they even prick their fingers
Mortarion landed on Necro-World, where he became Space Braveheart, not Radiation Land, where the dead were too irradiated to even become zombies.

You get the picture? Sanguinius landed on the one world where there was absolutely zero chance of him creating a paradise, and the best that he was able to do was create a prosperous society that worshiped him as a God (see: Space Jesus).

Honestly, Baal isn't all that different from Barbarus . Just replace the deadly radiation with virulent and corrosive gas and you get the same situation. You could die from a morning walk in the bog. Also, Sanguinius could walk on the surface without a rad suit whereas Mortarion apparently needed a breathing aparatus. Even that wasn't enough on highest peak, which actually caused him, a Primarch, to black out. The Primarch of the Death Guard (renowned for their toughness) no less.

So I'm guessing the deadly radiation really isn't that bad when you're a Primarch. And all the planets had their unique challenges.

Landing in the middle of the forest on Caliban wasn't exactly a walk in the park either. What's worse for a baby Primarch, radiation or a Chaos Spawn? And there weren't thousands of knightly orders. This is still a death world we're talking about. He survived utterly alone for a decade.

That said, what Sanguinius accomplished on Baal seems to be on the same level as what Mortarion did. Basically they led their respective tribes and fought back the mutant/undead tide that threatened to snuff out human life.

 Manchu wrote:
I don't mean that he would ever turn against the Emperor. But in his despair after the Emperor's incapacity, he nearly turned against the Imperium.
here.

But turning against the Imperium and falling to Chaos are different things. With his faith and love for the Emperor intact I think that is why he wouldn't likely fall to Chaos, even if the old Legions and new formed Chapters had started a new inter Imperium war. From reading the IA article on the Black Templars it suggests that it was Legions and not a Legion, being the Fists, from taking part. Likely, Vulkan and Russ legions would have aided Dorn, as they also did not want to break up their Legions for the 2nd Founding. Is there any further information anywhere on this?

The Primarchs that turned Traitor denounced the Emperor, making them more susceptible to the embrace of Chaos, Dorn always remained true.

Each have some foible that makes them as likely as the other to fall, but none more likely to fall than the other.

Argh! But then Ferrus might be the least likely thinking about it. He was given the choice, join the Traitors or don't and he didn't, he even chose the Emperor over his closest brother and friend. The Emperor he was forever trying to prove himself and stand out to amongst his more illustrious siblings.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


The Primarchs that turned Traitor denounced the Emperor, making them more susceptible to the embrace of Chaos, Dorn always remained true.

Each have some foible that makes them as likely as the other to fall, but none more likely to fall than the other.

Hold the phone.

Some Primarchs were most assuredly more likely to fall than others. It's a miracle that Angron didn't fall before there was a Horus Heresy. He'd might as well have had a "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!" tattoo put on the day the Emperor found him.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


Hold the phone.

Some Primarchs were most assuredly more likely to fall than others. It's a miracle that Angron didn't fall before there was a Horus Heresy. He'd might as well have had a "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!" tattoo put on the day the Emperor found him.

Isn't the thread in relation to Loyalist Primarchs, to whom are the ones I am referring to.

I have a theory that the Emperor abducted Angron from Nuceria to stop him from turning into the Prince of Blood there and then. So I am fully aware that some of the Traitor Primarchs were more likely to fall than others

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Several primarchs washed up on ravaged planets and really turned things around: Vulkan, Fulgrim, the Lion, Corax, even Curze and Mortarion after their own fashion. Not so with Sanguinius, it seems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@IAG: I estimate the probability of Dorn directly/consciously betraying the Emperor in any case whatsoever to be 0%. It's exactly that kind of inflexibility, however, that is twisted into a weakness by Chaos.

Vulkan landed on a world covered in volcanoes, which don't erupt 24/7; not a world covered in radiation 24/7
Fulgrim landed on a depleted, sun-starved mining world, not an irradiated wasteland where you can die from a morning walk in the sun
The Lion landed on a lush, forested feudal world, which had many small cities and townships alongside thousands of Knightly Orders which kept the Chaos Daemons at bay, not Space Fallout, where a few dozen thousand tribals were the entire population of the entire planet.
Corax landed on an oppressed world and became Space Batman, not Radiation Land where he became Gamma Man
Curze landed on an oppressed world and became Space Assassin's Creed, not Radiation Land where his people would die should they even prick their fingers
Mortarion landed on Necro-World, where he became Space Braveheart, not Radiation Land, where the dead were too irradiated to even become zombies.

You get the picture? Sanguinius landed on the one world where there was absolutely zero chance of him creating a paradise, and the best that he was able to do was create a prosperous society that worshiped him as a God (see: Space Jesus).

Honestly, Baal isn't all that different from Barbarus . Just replace the deadly radiation with virulent and corrosive gas and you get the same situation. You could die from a morning walk in the bog. Also, Sanguinius could walk on the surface without a rad suit whereas Mortarion apparently needed a breathing aparatus. Even that wasn't enough on highest peak, which actually caused him, a Primarch, to black out. The Primarch of the Death Guard (renowned for their toughness) no less.

So I'm guessing the deadly radiation really isn't that bad when you're a Primarch. And all the planets had their unique challenges.

Landing in the middle of the forest on Caliban wasn't exactly a walk in the park either. What's worse for a baby Primarch, radiation or a Chaos Spawn? And there weren't thousands of knightly orders. This is still a death world we're talking about. He survived utterly alone for a decade.

That said, what Sanguinius accomplished on Baal seems to be on the same level as what Mortarion did. Basically they led their respective tribes and fought back the mutant/undead tide that threatened to snuff out human life.

The thing with radiation is that it is anathema to HUMANS. You simply can't build a thriving paradise world like Caliban was en-route to being, when all around you is radiation, which humans can't survive without some serious gear.

Barbarus was certainly not a nice place to live. At least on Baal you didn't run the risk of being turned into a monsters armpit or codpiece.

Yeah I think Barbaras and Baal are pretty equal. I mean poison gas that kills you if you walk in it or radiation that kills you if you walk in it, it's much of a muchness really.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But turning against the Imperium and falling to Chaos are different things.

True -- but we have to consider the character of Dorn's turmoil, which I believe was despair. Turning against the Imperium would have been the outward manifestation of this internal weakness, which Chaos (I would guess Slaanesh especially) could have -- and I think definitely was at the time -- exploiting.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Likely, Vulkan and Russ legions would have aided Dorn, as they also did not want to break up their Legions for the 2nd Founding.

Dorn's motive was, IMO, very different. Vulkan was not enthusiastic because his Legion was shattered. Russ was too hard-headed to do things anyone else's way -- or at least that's the act he would put up. As we know, however, all that viking stuff is cover for cold calculation and the SW never have conformed to the Codex nor made anything but a pro forma effort to spawn successor chapters. I think Dorn, on the other hand, resisted Guilliman because of his guilt and depression and denial over the Emperor's enthronement. In other words, he was on the knife's edge. If a war had broken out, I would bet those who initially sided with Dorn would eventually turn against him as his insanity (and corruption) became more clear. As it actually happen, Dorn backed away from the cliff edge.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
It's a miracle that Angron didn't fall before there was a Horus Heresy.

Well, he was sanctioned by the Emperor for insubordination and the Emperor sicked the SW on him.

The Emperor didnt send the SW to sanction Angron actually, Russ took it upon himself to do so.

I must be getting it confused with another incident, mentioned in Betrayal, when the Emperor basically puts the War Hounds (or World Eaters) in time out. I'm not sure if Angron was with them at that point or not.

Oh yeah that's a seperate time I think. In Betrayer, Russ takes it upon himself to sanction the WE; in Betrayal, they get sent away to the fringes of the Galaxy for 100 years or something to murder Xenos. I think Angron was with them, I think it's cos the Emperor found out he'd been putting the nails in legionnaires..?

 Manchu wrote:
True -- but we have to consider the character of Dorn's turmoil, which I believe was despair. Turning against the Imperium would have been the outward manifestation of this internal weakness, which Chaos (I would guess Slaanesh especially) could have -- and I think definitely was at the time -- exploiting.

Or a strength, holding on to the belief in what the Imperium was, before the Heresy, not what it could be as a result of it. I don't believe there was any inner struggle between Dorn and Chaos at that, or any point. External yes, as whilst Guilliman was lording it up back on Terra restructuring, Dorn was out leading crusades taking the battle to the straggling Traitors. And these Crusades were Dorn's way of dealing with what he saw as his own personal failing, being the Emperors death. That implacable loyalty shining through again.

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn's motive was, IMO, very different. Vulkan was not enthusiastic because his Legion was shattered. Russ was too hard-headed to do things anyone else's way -- or at least that's the act he would put up. As we know, however, all that viking stuff is cover for cold calculation and the SW never have conformed to the Codex nor made anything but a pro forma effort to spawn successor chapters. I think Dorn, on the other hand, resisted Guilliman because of his guilt and depression and denial over the Emperor's enthronement. In other words, he was on the knife's edge. If a war had broken out, I would bet those who initially sided with Dorn would eventually turn against him as his insanity (and corruption) became more clear. As it actually happen, Dorn backed away from the cliff edge.

Or sided with him as a result of his actions holding the defense of Terra together. I believe that if it had come to it, Russ would have sided with Dorn. It's quite apparent from the structure of The Rout that they do not hold the Codex with any regard. I think Dorn resisted Guilliman because whilst he was defending the Emperor on Terra, Guilliman was swanning about looking after his own. A case of, what right do you have over me.

But like you say, Dorn, having purged himself of his weakness after the Iron Cage, relented and moved on, realising that he and his Legion had to change along with the Imperium.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh yeah that's a seperate time I think. In Betrayer, Russ takes it upon himself to sanction the WE; in Betrayal, they get sent away to the fringes of the Galaxy for 100 years or something to murder Xenos. I think Angron was with them, I think it's cos the Emperor found out he'd been putting the nails in legionnaires..?

I think this is after the Ghenna Scouring and what you twos is referring to is when Angron wouldn't remove and cease installing the Butchers Nails.

I always wondered, in this part in Betrayer, who the first Primarch was that went to Angron, because it mentions two, Russ being the second I think.

It is unfair to say Guilliman was "lording it up" when in reality he was actually saving the Imperium from collapse ... something Dorn was at the very least, at that point, psychologically (if not also intellectually) incapable of doing. And Dorn neither led nor as far as I am aware did the IF principally contribute to the Scouring. Most importantly, Guilliman's greatest accomplishment was not securing the stability of the Imperium but voluntarily surrendering his rulership over it once he stabilized it. This is the ultimate sign of loyalty, which no other primarch can claim.

Meanwhile, Dorn was spending increasingly long periods inside the Pain Glove. Pretty Slaaneshi if you ask me. Even after he backed down on the Codex issue, he remained nearly insane as proven by the Iron Cage incident. There again, Guilliman and the UM stepped in. This rescue seemed to finally bring Dorn and the IF to their senses. But Dorn's corruption lives on in the BT, who unsurprisingly are incredibly insecure about anything to do with the Warp.

Yeah surely sorting out all the logistical stuff after the Heresy to keep the Imperium intact is a pretty vital job, as vital as chasing traitors around the Galaxy...

 ImAGeek wrote:
as vital as chasing traitors around the Galaxy...

Which the UM also did, and which Guilliman apparently directed ...

Multitasker extraordinaire, although we knew that from KNF anyway.

One of Horus's greates strategic accomplishments was keeping the UM away from Terra. People talk about this as if it was the result of Guilliman being dumb or something. It's funny how a lot of fans don't give Horus the credit he actually deserves. I think this is because McNeill wrote him so poorly.

Agreed, Horus was written pretty badly and he doesn't get enough credit. There's a reason he was the Warmaster, after all.

 Manchu wrote:
One of Horus's greates strategic accomplishments was keeping the UM away from Terra. People talk about this as if it was the result of Guilliman being dumb or something. It's funny how a lot of fans don't give Horus the credit he actually deserves. I think this is because McNeill wrote him so poorly.

This is why I think he was so successful. I still think its hilarious people say that the DA were sitting back and being lazy, even though they were besieged and actively trying to fight the Night Lords. UM are still pretty Mary Sue to me, but they fought well on Terra, and I don't think Guilliman could've acted any differently for better effect.

I actually think Horus acted perfectly, springing his traps when he knew they would do the most damage.

Fought well on Terra? They didn't fight on Terra.

I still maintain that all the UM Mary Sueishness is all post heresy, because in the HH stuff I really don't think they read as Mary Sue at all.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
One of Horus's greates strategic accomplishments was keeping the UM away from Terra. People talk about this as if it was the result of Guilliman being dumb or something. It's funny how a lot of fans don't give Horus the credit he actually deserves. I think this is because McNeill wrote him so poorly.

This is why I think he was so successful. I still think its hilarious people say that the DA were sitting back and being lazy, even though they were besieged and actively trying to fight the Night Lords. UM are still pretty Mary Sue to me, but they fought well on Terra, and I don't think Guilliman could've acted any differently for better effect.

I actually think Horus acted perfectly, springing his traps when he knew they would do the most damage.

The belief that the DA sat around being lazy comes from the fact that for most of 40k's lifespan that was all we knew about them. Until the HH novels came out all we knew was that the Dark Angels were not involved in any of the major engagments, didn't make it to Terra in time, and then had a rebellion of their own to deal with. I'm assuming a lot of people still haven't read the HH novels pertaining to the Dark Angels, and still refer to the old information (or lack thereof).

 Manchu wrote:
It is unfair to say Guilliman was "lording it up" when in reality he was actually saving the Imperium from collapse ... something Dorn was at the very least, at that point, psychologically (if not also intellectually) incapable of doing. And Dorn neither led nor as far as I am aware did the IF principally contribute to the Scouring.

According to their IA article, they did. I also don't see any reference to Dorn being psychologically or intellectually incapable of leading. Grief stricken, yes, insane as you put it later in your post, no. Dorns priorities were the Traitors. Wrong choice, maybe, but not for Dorn at this point who felt that he had to serve penance for his failing. Was it his fault that the Emperor was wounded nearly to death, no. But he felt like it was.

While the Ultramarines maintained order within the Imperium, the Imperial Fists hunted down the traitors, levelling fortress after fortress. Dorn led them, dressed in the black of mourning, his customary mercy set aside until the guilty were punished. While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice. It was rumoured that he saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure and his crusade as penance. After all, were the Traitors not his brothers? Whatever the cause, Rogal Dorn was absent from the highest councils until he was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines presented his Codex Astartes as the future of the Space Marines.

 Manchu wrote:
Most importantly, Guilliman's greatest accomplishment was not securing the stability of the Imperium but voluntarily surrendering his rulership over it once he stabilized it. This is the ultimate sign of loyalty, which no other primarch can claim.

True, but then he got to mould the Imperium into how he saw fit. Wasn't Guilliman also one of the first High Lords, the Lord Commander of the Imperium?

 Manchu wrote:
Meanwhile, Dorn was spending increasingly long periods inside the Pain Glove. Pretty Slaaneshi if you ask me. Even after he backed down on the Codex issue, he remained nearly insane as proven by the Iron Cage incident. There again, Guilliman and the UM stepped in. This rescue seemed to finally bring Dorn and the IF to their senses. But Dorn's corruption lives on in the BT, who unsurprisingly are incredibly insecure about anything to do with the Warp.

The length mentioned is 7 days and I see no mention of increasingly long periods. Not all pain leads to corruption, some gain strength from it. The Iron Cage was what made Dorn come to his senses and split the Legions. It's what finally cleansed his being of his failure to protect the Emperor.

And surely the Black Templars are right to have insecurities about the warp, especially after the Heresy and the way it was used during that.

But I can see your theory.

 Manchu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
and which Guilliman apparently directed ...

Not seen this mentioned before, where is this from?

 Manchu wrote:
Fought well on Terra? They didn't fight on Terra.

Derp. Meant Calth, not Terra. I shouldn't post before I have coffee

Were you able to find mention in IA of Guilliman "swanning about"?

Stabilizing the Imperium was an objectively higher priority than confining the traitors for the simple reason that the former contained the latter and the latter assumed the former. I mean, what would we say about Guilliman if he interpreted the Emperor's death as his personal failure? That's irrational. It is no less irrational for Dorn to say it. Furthermore, Dorn interpreted what needed to be done in personal terms -- which is why he prioritized salving his own irrationally guilty conscious over saving his father's empire.

Maybe you will not find it explicitly spelled out in IA but it is clear that (a) Dorn was not in his right mind after the Siege of Terra and (b) his mental state was seriously deteriorating at least up until the Cage Incident. Pain did not make Rogal Dorn stronger. It caused him to make objectively bad decisions and ultimately Guilliman and the UM had to step in to save him from the consequences.

I thought about it after I picked corax, and I still agree that Corax would be the least likely to fall... However, I think that Corax could have fallen if he found out wether through lies or the truth that the Imperium was just as harsh a slave master as the ones on deliverance. Or something along those lines, as he is the slave fighter after all.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah I think Barbaras and Baal are pretty equal. I mean poison gas that kills you if you walk in it or radiation that kills you if you walk in it, it's much of a muchness really.

Yes, but Barbarous had safe zones; the valleys where the humans lived. On Baal, literally the entire planet is covered in radiation, and rad suits and vehicles are the only way to survive.

Tiger9gamer, your picture reminds me of Jason from Home movies. I'd vote Dorn. All the primarchs were corruptible to varying degrees, but I feel that Dorn would've held off longer than most.

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah I think Barbaras and Baal are pretty equal. I mean poison gas that kills you if you walk in it or radiation that kills you if you walk in it, it's much of a muchness really.

Yes, but Barbarous had safe zones; the valleys where the humans lived. On Baal, literally the entire planet is covered in radiation, and rad suits and vehicles are the only way to survive.

Surely there are also places of shelter on Baal unless the planet is completely devoid of any mountains, caves, and other features. The descriptions of the planets don't make them sound that much different, only on Baal the threat was from wandering tribes of mutants, whereas on Barbarus there was actually an organized warp-tainted alien presence that actively preyed on the humans and kept them in line. Plus the greatest of all of the alien warlords was out of reach of Mortarion, even with a protective suit.

A description of Baal :

"For the few surviving humans, existence was a constant struggle. They wandered the surface in ramshackle vehicles, desperately hoping that their patched-together radiation suits would save them, praying that they would never hear the hideous tell-tale clicking of their rad-counters, a sound that meant death was imminent. For a time it seemed that humanity was doomed and soon there would only be an endless desert ruled over by the feuding mutant tribes"

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Baal

And descriptions of Barbarus :

"Of all the worlds upon which the Primarchs were scattered, few were as terrible or forlorn a place as damned Barbarus. This Feral World orbited near a dim yellow sun in the Segmentum Tempestus, which created a thick, miasmic atmosphere of toxic chemicals. The most virulent of these gases rose through Barbarus' perpetual clouds towards the heat of its star, making the world beneath a dismal place of night, unbroken by starlight and possessed of short, shadowy days."

"The world on which the young Mortarion fell was the very epitome of the terrors which had befallen Mankind during the long night of the Age of Strife -- a domain of savage, alien overlords who ruled over an entrapped and preyed-upon human population as cruel as terrible gods."

"The higher beings' incomprehensible Warp-based powers, their ability to survive where men could not, and above all their hunger to prey upon and experiment with humankind, caused the settlers to ascribe to those beings a medieval supernaturalism and an evil animus. The true nature of these dark overlords, beyond their obvious connection to the dark entities of the Empyrean, will likely never be known."

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarus

Sure, Baal was a terrible place for human existence but I don't think you can elevate it above all the other planets the Primarchs landed on. It's not even classified as a Death World (though it probably should be). Caliban is (was):

"The world of Caliban possessed as cruel and harsh an environment as any in the galaxy. Classified as a Death World by the Imperial astrocartographers, the dark, twisted forests that covered the surface of this lush, green planet were as beautiful as they were deadly. These dangerous woods were infested with creatures known as the Great Beasts who had been warped and mutated into fanatical predators by the unnatural forces of Chaos. Imperial scholars believe this was due to the Caliban System's close proximity to the Eye of Terror. Day-to-day survival was a ceaseless struggle due to the ferociousness of the ravening Great Beasts that infested the Calibanite forests. To tread the forest paths was to invite certain death."

It's also mentioned that the native flora and fauna were deadly as well ("There isn't much here that is not capable of killing a man, one way or another. Carnivorous animals, poisonous flowers, venomous insects: the creatures of this world only know one law and that is 'kill or be killed'." - from Descent of Angels, pg 11).

Without the Primarchs' intervention, these worlds would have remained that way for human life.

Also on Barbaras the necromancer guys were always going hunting for humans so I wouldn't say the valleys were safe really. Safer than the gas maybe, but not safe.

Are you reading a word that I'm fething writing? Seriously! My argument is not that Sanguinius's travails were more difficult than Mortarion's or the Lion's, only that you cannot build a thriving paradise world of the sort you were critisizing Sanguinius for not building on Baal.

I never criticised him for that, so...

And maybe now you know how it feels when people don't read what you're saying

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
True. Vulkan was noble. But correct me if I'm wrong, he wasn't as accomplished.

He's more accomplished then Sanguinius. Baal is still a radioactive godforsaken wasteland. Vulkan meanwhile actually managed to improve his deathworld- kicking out the Dark Eldar, and I think he may have had a hand in building the seven citadels.

this was what I was arguing against. You chimed in for wyzilla, and took over for his side of the argument, or so it seemed

When I 'chimed in for Wyzilla' (I was just putting my opinion forward about Baal and Barbaras) the discussion was about whether Baal or Barbaras was worse. I agree with you that there wasn't much he could do for Baal.

You make it sound like me and Wyzilla are some kind of tag team haha. I will say though about reading what people are saying; people in glass houses and all that. And again, just cool the tone off a little on your posts.

 dusara217 wrote:
Are you reading a word that I'm fething writing? Seriously! My argument is not that Sanguinius's travails were more difficult than Mortarion's or the Lion's, only that you cannot build a thriving paradise world of the sort you were critisizing Sanguinius for not building on Baal.

I would say Mortarion or Angron had the most difficult challenges. I mean they faced a challenge not even the might of a Primarch could overcome.

 dusara217 wrote:
Are you reading a word that I'm fething writing? Seriously! My argument is not that Sanguinius's travails were more difficult than Mortarion's or the Lion's, only that you cannot build a thriving paradise world of the sort you were critisizing Sanguinius for not building on Baal.

Yes you can. It's called underground homes and a furiously good scrubbing down.

Angron fared poorly on Nuceria, which is probably not because Nuceria is so terrible ... more like Angron never had the ambition of, say, Fulgrim. I don't have a great sense of the scale of Mortarion's war against his adoptive father but it seems to me that he didn't greatly improve Barbarus, either.

I don't know why Baal Secundus is being held up as such a great challenge, it's just radiation.The bigger issue is that we don't know much about what Sanguinius did before the Emperor showed up in contrast to, for example, Fulgrim who masterminded a 180 degree turnaround of a planetary economy. As far as I can tell, Vulkan just kicked some DE out of a single town.

Wasn't Fulgrims planet irradiated too? I know it was pretty inhospitable and desolate.

I don't know, I think it was just an economic disaster based on over-mining. Does Vol II or III of the HH series contain any info on Chemos?

I believe Calth were made due to meddling of the star. Showers the start difference between between a Primarch intervening for the good for the planet and the ones that doesn't You also have. Both Dorn abd Guilliman managed to improve planets they, and Guilliman was cast at besically green fields in a harsh system with a little trade already (people would be shocked if the opened a book about Afrika and saw this, But it seems to be the easier challenge,

 Manchu wrote:
I don't know, I think it was just an economic disaster based on over-mining. Does Vol II or III of the HH series contain any info on Chemos?

Chemos would be in Book I, in the EC section. I know there was like storms with razor metal and stuff that would shred people and stuff like that, I just pictured it to be irradiated but I dunno if it's cos I read that or made it up.

 Beaviz81 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Are you reading a word that I'm fething writing? Seriously! My argument is not that Sanguinius's travails were more difficult than Mortarion's or the Lion's, only that you cannot build a thriving paradise world of the sort you were critisizing Sanguinius for not building on Baal.

I would say Mortarion or Angron had the most difficult challenges. I mean they faced a challenge not even the might of a Primarch could overcome.

Angron would have overcome, if the Emperor hadn't been a gakker and abducted him at a crucial moment, leaving his men to die.

 fallinq wrote:
Angron would have overcome, if the Emperor hadn't been a gakker and abducted him at a crucial moment, leaving his men to die.

The background points towards Angron definitely dying had he stayed. I hear that the reason the Emperor took Angron but left the others is because the world had become compliant peacefully and as such the gladiators were in revolt against a loyal regime (though why the Emperor couldn't try to enforce an amnesty and move the gladiators off-world I do not know).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
(though why the Emperor couldn't try to enforce an amnesty and move the gladiators off-world I do not know).

Again, because the Emperor is a gakker. On another note, I just learned that Dakkadakka censors a certain very mild English curse word with "gakker".

 dusara217 wrote:
this was what I was arguing against. You chimed in for wyzilla, and took over for his side of the argument, or so it seemed

Oi, I'm your opponent here. Did you not read my eloquent post? Nah, I'm just kidding but you might want to take your own advice and cool off.

And yea, underground shelters. It's basically Fallout in space. Calth managed somehow. And how would you have fixed Barbarus? The gas was caused by the planet's position in relation to its star, not much you can do about that either.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Chemos would be in Book I

Ugh I was hoping you wouldn't say that. My copy is buried under mounds of stuff.

Alicia Dominica

Is that a bearded lady, Miko? He’s/she’s so purty.

It's my standard avatar with a fake beard on, lol.

Ahh, I see. Honestly that fake beard could have fooled anyone.

Dwarvish make, after all!

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
3 Lion El Johnson pawns, attempting to cover up the truth.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

I can't speak for Horus but by the time they started calling themselves "Sons of Horus" his legion was made up almost entirely of violent criminals using underhanded tactics. (source: HH book 1: Massacre)

Could we please stop discussing the pre-Crusade accomplishments of each Primarch? It's very off-topic, and I'm actually about to start a thread about this because you guys have peaked my interest in this matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Here's a spanner to throw into your noggin-works.

What if the lest corruptible was Horus?
What if the Chaos Gods recognised that Horus was the least corruptible and most capable of holding the Imperium together and so they 'went for the head' expecting the rest of the body to fall? After all, Horus was the favoured son most like his Father the Emperor.


Thinking about it... Put each Primarch in Horus' position before they knew about the effects of chaos - would any of them done any better? They're all deeply flawed.




Just as planned...

I can't speak for Horus but by the time they started calling themselves "Sons of Horus" his legion was made up almost entirely of violent criminals using underhanded tactics. (source: HH book 1: Massacre)

Horus was most definitely not the most corruptibility. If you read the Chapter wherein he gets corrupted in False Gods, his ambition and insane pride become evident.