Original suggestion in the Spoiler, followed by my current suggestion (as it stands after 8 pages of discussion)
Spoiler:
Some units are great, others are currently pointless. The proposed changes are to make the entire codex equally viable, to introduce variety back into the Codex. This is not about balance between codexes, and assumes other Codexes are also rounded out.
HQ Brother-Captain: A bit over priced, -25 points
Brother-Captain Stern: Too expensive for what he does, like the generic, but with set powers, and a bonus to Banishment -35 points
Brotherhood Champion: Not nearly as useful as a Brother Captain -50ish points would be good for him too.
Castellan Crowe: Needs a big cost decrease as he's only good in Challenges, with no AP in general combat. I would say -50pts
Techmarine: Would benefit from having a Storm Shield upgrade option. Add optional Storm Shield upgrade.
Troop Strike Squads: Their primary role is to provide Teleport Homers for the Terminators who Deep Strike in. Trade Deep Strike for Infiltrate Trade Nemesis Force Sword, Frag, Krak, & Psyk-out Grenades for decrease in point cost.
Elite Paladin Squad: They cost way to much for how easily they die. Needs access to Storm Shields (purchased like any other equipment).
Dreadnought: Lackluster and expensive. As Anti-air they would have a strong role in the Grey Knights codex. Replace their Autocannon upgrade options with Hydra Autocannons (standard Autocannon + Skyfire).
Heavy Purgation Squad: Designated shooting, so they should be good at it. Trade Nemesis Force Swords, Frag, Krak, & Psyk-out Grenades, and Night Vision for Relentless and *Perfect Timing from Divination
*Originally suggested having Ignores Cover, but that could be too much.
Current Version with explanations
Daemonology (Sanctic): The #4 power should be replaced with one that improves the shooting efficiency of the Psyker’s unit (does not affect Psychic shooting attacks). Purge Soul isn’t useful, and having a power that improves shooting, that Purgation Squads could start out with instead of Hammerhand could make them worth taking. Thus only the Purgation Squads and the occasional non-named HQ generating random Sanctic powers would have access to this shooting buff. 4. Psychic Infusion …………………..Warp Charge 1 The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential. Psychic Infusion is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the AP of weapons fired by the psyker's unit are improved by 1.
Grey Knight Chapter Tactics: The Aegis Prefered Enemy (Daemons) Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit These Special Rules apply across the Codex the same way the Space Marines’ Chapter Tactics do. The problem the Grey Knights face with this is that several of their units are charged around 25 points for their Chapter Tactics which should be free (Compare these to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics if you think they’re too much).
Brother-Captain – 25 = 125 points
Brother-Captain Stern – 25 = 160 points
Dreadnought – 25 = 100 points
Brotherhood Champion – 50 = 100 points Stats & Equipment like the Brother-Captain (also charged for Chapter Tactics), But he suffers from reduced survivability (-1W), reduced shooting (-1BS, and no Special Weapon options), reduced Attacks (-1A), and all he gets back is special rules that only really matter in challenges (additional – 25 points).
Castellan Crowe – 50 = 125 points Most of the same problems as the Brotherhood Champion (still charged for Chapter Tactics), but he has WS8, I6, 3A, but NO AP for general close combat Whereas the Brotherhood Champion only shines in challenges, Crowe is only useful at all in Challenges. He’s better in those challenges than a Brotherhood Champion, but the expense of being useful anywhere else completely counter-balances that benefit (additional – 25 points)
Strike Squads need Rites of Teleportation and reduced Deep Strike scatter to be part of their profile. Alpha-strike with Teleport Homers is the only role they could fill, yet they can’t currently do that with any sort of efficiency unless you take a NSF with the Strike Squads and put the Terminators in a CAD, and even then, having full scatter means it is easy for an opponent to deploy to deny the Deep Striking units useful placesto land.
Paladins at their current price need Sanctuary. They are far too expensive relative to their survivability. The plethora of Melta and Plasma in the meta means they often die just as quickly as the generic Terminators, which cost half as much. Sanctuary would help alleviate this problem.
Dreadnoughts need a special rule that allows them to fire at both fliers and ground targets with their full Ballistic Skill. The Grey Knights don’t have any deployable anti-air, and the Dreadnoughts don’t currently perform any function well relative to their cost. Making them anti-air would be perfect. I would also replace their Sanctuary Psychic power with my proposed “Psychic Infusion” power.
Purgation Squads would have my proposed “Psychic Infusion” power instead of Hammerhand. This compounded with fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon would make the Purgation Squads worth taking. As it is, they’re essentially Strike Squads without Deep Strike, being as their Special weapons aren’t worth taking in the current meta.
The Land Raider Redeemer needs some form of Torrent on its sponson weapons. This change would easily justify making its price equal to the other two. This could be achieved by replacing the Flamestorm Cannons with Heavy Incinerators, or by adding an optional upgrade that gives the Flamestorm Cannons some form of Torrent (my suggestion gave it a 6” Torrent). The main difference is that making it a Heavy Incinerator reduces them to AP4, while giving a version of Torrent to the Flamestorm Cannons leaves them at AP3.
All Land Raider Variants should gain the Venerable Special Rule.
The “Grey Knights Brotherhood” Formation is worthless. Taking it with no upgrades is 2045 points, which is far too big to be used, even if all of the units in it were useful. It would be infinitely better if it were replaced with a Detachment of Formations like the Necrons and Eldar currently have. (How this Detachment of Formations would work is a big enough topic for its own thread. My current suggestion is on pg 8 of this thread, but I'm open to better suggestions)
Skitarii should be incorporated into the Grey Knights Codex. All of this nonsense with "sub-Codexes" is crap. The Grey Knights and Mechanicus work closely enough to be in the same Codex, and the Scitarii fill the rolls the Grey Knights were deliberately left unable to fill.
Now the big points of contestation…
Special Weapons: The Incinerator is fine, but the Psilencer can’t statistically kill anything of note before it’s wielder is killed, and the Psycannon is a liability instead of a benefit on any unit that’s not Relentless. So my proposed weapons:
Incinerator: Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1, Soulblaze (No change)
Psilencer: 24", S4, AP4, Assault 3, Psychic Tear Psychic Tear: The raw psychic energies being focused through the Psilencer tear flesh and machine as it blasts pieces of them into oblivion. For each Hit a unit takes from this weapon, roll a D6. On a 1, nothing happens. On a 2-5, the unit suffers a single Wound/Glance. On a 6, the Target suffers a single Wound/Penetrating Hit
If you want to introduce variety back into the Codex back off on the all-GK-all-the-time setup the 5e book tried to push. Bring back Inquisitorial content, Stormtroopers, that sort of thing.
I really like the idea of Purgations having ignores cover but I think it should be in the form of a psychic power like the old Purgations.
Perhaps some GK units could have a unique primaris power kind of like how chaos units have an extra primaris power (I forget what it's called).
- The Purgations have a primaris that allows them to ignore cover and line of sight.
- Dreadnoughts have psybolt ammo back in the form of a primaris power instead of Sanctuary.
- Strike Squads can have Warp Quake back.
- Paladins can have their witchfire back.
- Purifiers are fine as is. Probably the only unit that retained it's unique power from the previous codex.
AnomanderRake wrote: If you want to introduce variety back into the Codex back off on the all-GK-all-the-time setup the 5e book tried to push. Bring back Inquisitorial content, Stormtroopers, that sort of thing.
That wouldn't fix the poor balance for the units still in the Codex. I'm all for bringing back units that were stripped away, but the core, the Grey Knights proper, needs to be balanced.
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curran12 wrote: And free Relentless and Ignores Cover for purgation?
This is not rounding out, unless round means obese in its power.
They're supposed to be the Grey Knights' Devistators, and they suck at that role. And they aren't getting them for free, they're paying for them by stripping off the gear and abilities that aren't related to shooting.
The people who said that Ignores Cover for the Purgation Squad should be a power instead of a base ability, I can agree with that. The Divination power "Perfect Timing" does that perfectly.
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Bharring wrote: Infiltrate on some of the shiniest and biggest infantry in the game?
Are other armies blind?
Other armies have Scouts, and they infiltrate, and have much better shooting options than Storm Bolters. Infiltrating Strike Squads as I suggested would simply make them more expensive versions of the other factions' Scouts (with different gear).
For Strike Squads, how about giving a special rule to Grand Masters that gives Strike Squads in the army the 'Scout' special rule. Call it 'Grand Strategy' like in the old codex. This allows them to stay the same while giving them the usefulness of providing teleport homers up the field. It'll also encourage people to actually take a Grand Master instead of double Librarians.
They're supposed to be the Grey Knights' Devistators, and they suck at that role. And they aren't getting them for free, they're paying for them by stripping off the gear and abilities that aren't related to shooting.
So they are "paying" for better shooting by giving up the weapons and abilities that they almost NEVER use? That is not balancing, that is creating a fake difference to justify bloating power. "But they are worse in at melee now!" is the line you throw out, more or less, but the issue is that nobody uses Purgations for melee, and their value is NOT in melee. It never has been in melee. It is not an equivalent loss in power to justify the massive increase in shooting.
Bharring wrote: It was an entirely fluff-centric concern. Scout squads are usually not as flashy as normal battle brothers.
I just couldn't imagine any faction being slow enough to not notice giants in bright and shiny armor marching up to them.
Kinda a hillariois mental image, though!
It's not so much marching in, as being that they Teleport in before the battle, and secure the location for the Teleport Homers.
But you are right, it is a comically absurd idea to picture Space Marines of any type sneaking past anything.
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curran12 wrote: So they are "paying" for better shooting by giving up the weapons and abilities that they almost NEVER use? That is not balancing, that is creating a fake difference to justify bloating power. "But they are worse in at melee now!" is the line you throw out, more or less, but the issue is that nobody uses Purgations for melee, and their value is NOT in melee. It never has been in melee. It is not an equivalent loss in power to justify the massive increase in shooting.
You are fixated on this (incorrect) assumption that the Grey Knights are overpowered. Other factions have units that specialize. They're good at one thing and not good at others. If I compare the current Purgation Squad to one such specialized shooting unit, you would say that the other unit of course should be better at shooting because that is all it does. the Current Purgation Squads don't do anything well, and my proposal was to make them a designated shooting unit, like they were intended to be.
The proposed changes do not make the changed units any more powerful than the units I did not propose changes for. And the units for which I have not proposed changes are the ones being used in competative play. And guess what, they lose as many games as they win, which proves that they are not over powered. If every unit in the codex had the same power relative to cost, it would not make the codex overpowered, only more diverse. And the primary benefit the Grey Knights get from fixing these units is the variety of choices for list building, so an opponent doesn't know exactly what units the Grey Knights are fielding just by knowing the Codex.
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Zimko wrote: For Strike Squads, how about giving a special rule to Grand Masters that gives Strike Squads in the army the 'Scout' special rule. Call it 'Grand Strategy' like in the old codex. This allows them to stay the same while giving them the usefulness of providing teleport homers up the field. It'll also encourage people to actually take a Grand Master instead of double Librarians.
My issue with Scout for Strike Squads is that it doesn't fill their fluff role, and doesn't really benefit the Terminators. They would still only reduce the scatter for Terminators arriving on the Grey Knight side of the middle line, and they need reduced scatter for the opponent's side of the board.
Perhaps the Strike Squads were as they are, but with Rites of Teleportation base instead of it being a Detachment benefit, and Terminators have a special rule that auto-reduces scatter wherever they land.
AnomanderRake wrote: If you want to introduce variety back into the Codex back off on the all-GK-all-the-time setup the 5e book tried to push. Bring back Inquisitorial content, Stormtroopers, that sort of thing.
That wouldn't fix the poor balance for the units still in the Codex. I'm all for bringing back units that were stripped away, but the core, the Grey Knights proper, needs to be balanced.
Add an Attack to all GK profiles. Any GK unit that comes with Hammerhand can trade it for a Blessing that improves Storm Bolters somehow (+1S, Rending, force reroll of successful saves, there are many possibilities). Expand the ranged weapons list to include things that can threaten armour and things that have a range of beyond 24", let Purgators buy suspensor webs or some such for Relentless or limited Relentless. Stick servo-skulls for safe Deep Strike back in the core GK book. Give them a broader selection of armour.
Here's my current idea for improving internal balance. Remember that external balance would involve fixing the problems other Codexes have, not leaving holes in this one.
Note: The Aegis, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), and 1 Mastery Level of Psyker are essentially the Grey Knights' Chapter Tactics, and the other Space Marine chapters don't have to pay for their Chapter Tactics.
Replace Banishment as the Grey Knights' Primaris Power with "Psybolt" as a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker's unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Make Banishment a passive ability where Daemons within receive -1 to their Invulnerable Save for each unit with this special rule within 12" of the Daemon's unit, to a minimum of 6++.
Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: Add Rending to the profile.
Psycannon: Change Salvo to always use the maximum range.
Dreadnought Weapons:
Exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon, (same cost)
*The other upgrades on pg59 are fine.
HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
90pts- Techmarine: Add option to exchange his Servo-harness for a Storm Shield
*The Librarian is perfect as he is.
Troops
90pts- Strike Squad: Exchange Deep Strike for Infiltrate. Make the Nemesis Force Sword an optional upgrade instead of coming standard with the model.
*Terminators are fine as they are.
Elite
125pts- Purifier Squad: Exchange Purifying Flame for Fiery Form
150pts- Paladin Squad: Additional Paladins cost 50pts, add optional Storm Shield for 10 pts each
100pts- Dreadnought: exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon (same cost),
Fast
55- Razorback: replace TL heavy flamer option for Heavy Incinerator and have it cost around 10pts
*Rhinos, Interceptors and Storm Ravens are fine.
Heavy
110- Purgation Squad: Lose Nem. Force Swords, Frag, Krak, & Psyk-out Grenades, Night Vision, and Hammerhand. Instead, give them Perfect Timing. Also give them the optional upgrade to take Missile Launchers with Flak Missiles.
130- Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts
270- Land Raider Redeemer: Give Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
LoW *Draigo is fine.
Rites of Teleportation: should include reduced Deep Strike scatter.
Ultimately the Psilencer is only 6 shots at Strength 4 with no armor penetration. If you crunch the numbers it is objectively worse than the Psycannon (if you disregard the stupidity of Salvo). Force on a shooting weapon looks nice on paper, but in my experience it very rarely comes into play, especially since that S4 limits the maximum Toughness of enemies that can be hurt. Fore most multi-wound models you have a 2/3 chance to hit, with a low chance to wound, with an even lower chance of the save being failed. Statistically it should take two rounds of shooting from a Psilencer to get a successful wound on a daemon-prince or equivalent. I'd happily give up Force if they'd just give it Rending.
Alternatively, it could have a special rule that makes it always wound on a 4+ so it could actually be useful against those high toughness monstrous creatures, and that would make me happy without Rending.
Note: the Gatling Psilencer stacks pretty well considering it has fully twice as many shots as a Heavy Psycannon, a perk the standard Psilencer does not share with the standard Psycannon (again disregarding the stupidity of Salvo). However that Strength 4 is still an extremely limiting factor on the gun.
Quickjager wrote: A psilencer with rending? You have no idea how many people you're scaring with that concept, I felt an evil smile creep onto my face reading it.
Those rolls of 6 on a Rending Psilencer would be the only AP2 infantry shooting attacks in the entire Codex (aside from the Psycannon which was decimated by Salvo), while others have Lascannons Meltaguns, and all sorts of other AP2 (or even AP1) shooting weapons on their infantry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everything else is AP4, or AP5
I don't think psilencers should have rending a lot of armies lack ap 2 (orks,nids and even crons although crons one source of range ap2 did get more viable this edition). they do deserve a slight buff though. I liked the idea of a grey knight psyhic power that boosts the strength of both storm bolters and psilencer.
Bill1138 wrote: Here's my current idea for improving internal balance. Remember that external balance would involve fixing the problems other Codexes have, not leaving holes in this one.
An equally large part of external balance is also not making your own army grossly over-powered just because you think they should be... (unless your name is Mat Ward!)
Bill1138 wrote: Replace Banishment as the Grey Knights' Primaris Power with "Psybolt" as a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker's unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
No.
+1S for 'mind bullets' was idiotic in the last codex and made absolutely no sense whatsoever. If Psybolts make a comeback, then it should be either as a set to-wound roll vs. Daemons & Psykers, or else a rule such as say Shred or re-roll failed 1's to-wound vs. Daemons & Psykers.
Bill1138 wrote: Make Banishment a passive ability where Daemons within receive -1 to their Invulnerable Save for each unit with this special rule within 12" of the Daemon's unit, to a minimum of 6++.
No way in hell.
How would you like it if suddenly Daemon players suggest that it's fair for us to gain say, "Grey Knights suffer -1 to their armour saves for each daemonic unit within 12", because... Reasons!?"
You want to nuke a Daemon's invuln save, (which keep in mind, is pretty much the only save Daemons ever get outside for rare few cases of 3+ or FnP), then you can cast Banishment properly.
I mean seriously, you're freaking Grey Knights! It's not like Warp Charges are all that hard to come by in a GK army!
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: Add Rending to the profile.
Psycannon: Change Salvo to always use the maximum range.
Absolutely NO! The Psilencer is already good and deadly to the things it's meant to really smite, which are the vast majority of T4 multi-wound units. It does not need an additional buff just because you want your Codex: Easy Mode back.
The Psycannon's so-called 'problems' only need to be addressed by a fix to Salvo weapons in general.
Bill1138 wrote: Dreadnought Weapons:
Exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon, (same cost)
Or rather, just make the ability to gain Skyfire as an upgrade to the basic twin-linked Autocannon.
Bill1138 wrote: HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
90pts- Techmarine: Add option to exchange his Servo-harness for a Storm Shield
*The Librarian is perfect as he is.
The Bro-Captain could probably do with dropping to 140pts. That's essentially having him pay only 20pts for his Mastery lv1, instead of the full 25pts one normally pays for Psyker levels. 125 is too cheap though - that's only 5pts above a basic Codex Termie Captain in which you're gaining Lv1 + Force Sword + grenades. That's definitely worth at least 15-20pts premium!
Stern should still be a bit more than 150pts. He is a Lv2 afterall, and turns Banishment into an area-effect power with a solid 12" radius.
Again, Crowe is too cheap. He's still a Lv2, and to boot, he comes with Cleansing Flame which is a heinously effective power. He's also a solid Challenge beatstick. At the very least, he'd definitely be solid buy for 150pts.
Honestly, I think the lack of Storm Shields is a great way to help diversify GK's from regular Marines, plus it gives regular Marines a bonus over the Knights.
Librarian could easily do with being 10pts more honestly, as right now he's a complete no-brainer.
Bill1138 wrote: Troops
90pts- Strike Squad: Exchange Deep Strike for Infiltrate. Make the Nemesis Force Sword an optional upgrade instead of coming standard with the model.
*Terminators are fine as they are.
Keep Deep Strike, add Scout.
Infiltrate is simply too much of a God-mode for GK's... using the special Strike Force detachment rules, you could very easily be landing the game's outright best alpha strike for absolutely 0 risk beyond "don't go last."
Scout keeps the ability good, but not stupidly broken.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
125pts- Purifier Squad: Exchange Purifying Flame for Fiery Form
150pts- Paladin Squad: Additional Paladins cost 50pts, add optional Storm Shield for 10 pts each
100pts- Dreadnought: exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon (same cost)
Uh, sure? Not really sure why you'd want to dump the game's best Nova power, and the one that basically defined this nonsensical "purer than pure" unit...
No gakking way should Pallies be cheaper AND be able to instantly gain a 2++ save for next to no effort!! And considering the IoM bro-fisting BFF club, it's not like it'd be hard to add in an IG Priest to make that 2++ re-rollable in combat either... If a re-rollable 2++ is beyond broken & stupid for Xenos, why is it suddenly okay for Imperials to pull that BS?!
Or rather, just give the Autocannon itself the ability to gain a Skyfire mode for an additional cost...
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
55- Razorback: replace TL heavy flamer option for Heavy Incinerator and have it cost around 10pts
Just make it a regular Incinerator.
Bill1138 wrote: Heavy
110- Purgation Squad: Lose Nem. Force Swords, Frag, Krak, & Psyk-out Grenades, Night Vision, and Hammerhand. Instead, give them Perfect Timing. Also give them the optional upgrade to take Missile Launchers with Flak Missiles.
130- Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts
270- Land Raider Redeemer: Give Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
No, no, and NO!
First, Grey Knights are defined by their iconic wargear. No giving that up, just as basic Marines cannot give up Bolters. There's really nothing wrong with Purgations, other than the fact that Dreadknights are again, too amazing of an auto-include.
Deploy these guys properly with good LoS and a decent field of fire, and they can cover a pretty area with their firepower. Besides, GK's shouldn't ever be a static gunline force.
No. If you want Storm Shields, go play a regular Marine Chapter. You still get instant access to a 4++ thanks to Sanctuary. If you honestly think it's be perfectly balanced to start with a 3++ which is then easily boosted to a 2++, have fun trying find people willing to play against you...
Land Raiders are already viewed as universally over-costed. And again, remember all the whining Marines players did, (and still do!), over Helldrakes? This would be equally as bad.
Bill1138 wrote: Rites of Teleportation: should include reduced Deep Strike scatter.
No. Buy Teleport Homers if you want risk-free DS'ing.
Overall your "fixes" read more like, "I want my Codex: Godmode-hammer back, because... 'Grey Knights!'"
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: Add Rending to the profile.
Psycannon: Change Salvo to always use the maximum range.
Absolutely NO! The Psilencer is already good and deadly to the things it's meant to really smite, which are the vast majority of T4 multi-wound units. It does not need an additional buff just because you want your Codex: Easy Mode back.
The Psycannon's so-called 'problems' only need to be addressed by a fix to Salvo weapons in general.
I'd like to point out that Psilencers are actually fairly gakky at present, and something does need to be done about them. IMO, changing them to 30" range and Salvo 4/6 (or preferably 36" range) would actually be a good direction- there's a good parallel in the DE Splinter Cannon, which should be considered the benchmark of a "good" Salvo weapon, in that it has sufficiently long range and high RoF to provide substantial benefit to the squad, no matter if they move or not.
But I would agree that Rending is not the direction to go for Psilencers.
EDIT: I'd also like to mention that Psilencers should perhaps be S5 as well; while S5 isn't particularly impressive on its own, S5, plus a range buff and Salvo 4/6 would make them passably good midrange anti-horde, and also a credible threat to not only multi-wound T4/5 models, but also solo T6 MCs; I mean, you're probably not scaring a Riptide off on account of its 2+ armor- same really applies to the Dreadknight as well, though DKs at least have the decency to want to punch things like a proper MC- but the things that GKs are, fluff-wise, fighting all the time would have to carefully weigh out whether or not getting into view of a Psilencer would be a good idea.
It would also help make Psilencers a good choice in comparison to the Incinerator and Psycannon; both of the latter offer higher Strength and better AP; Incinerators are also Ignores Cover/Templates, while Psycannons snag Rending (for whatever reason...), but Psilencers would provide weight of fire and Force.
Also, I rather like that Psilencers are Force weapons; it contributes to the flavor, IMO, of the GK army that they- at least for now- have the only Force weapon that's a gun in the entire game.
Bill1138 wrote: Dreadnought Weapons:
Exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon, (same cost)
Or rather, just make the ability to gain Skyfire as an upgrade to the basic twin-linked Autocannon.
Even easier: make Stormravens better AA for Grey Knights (maybe diversify GK Stormraven missile options), and give some kind of option for 'ground-based' Skyfire. Pretty much every army in the game has a ground-based AA unit as well as a superiority "fighter" of some kind. Not only that, but this helps diversify options for GKs a little bit more.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
55- Razorback: replace TL heavy flamer option for Heavy Incinerator and have it cost around 10pts
Just make it a regular Incinerator.
It's worth noting that said Incinerator should be twin-linked; but it's also worth noting that the Heavy Incinerator at 10 points would be waaaay undercosted- vanilla Marines are paying 20 points for a twin-linked Heavy Flamer, so that's a good point to start at for pricing a twin-linked Incinerator on the GK Razorback.
Of course, it'd be really chill if GK vehicles could swap HB/AC mounts for Psycannons, at an appropriate cost, naturally.
Bill1138 wrote: 270- Land Raider Redeemer: Give Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
No, no, and NO!
First, Grey Knights are defined by their iconic wargear. No giving that up, just as basic Marines cannot give up Bolters. There's really nothing wrong with Purgations, other than the fact that Dreadknights are again, too amazing of an auto-include.
Deploy these guys properly with good LoS and a decent field of fire, and they can cover a pretty area with their firepower. Besides, GK's shouldn't ever be a static gunline force.
Land Raiders are already viewed as universally over-costed. And again, remember all the whining Marines players did, (and still do!), over Helldrakes? This would be equally as bad.
A 'Deemer with Torrent Flamestorms, costed at 270 points, would IMO be fairly reasonable.
It's also worth noting that the Baal Predator thread discussed changing the Flamestorm Cannon to a Torrent weapon; the general consensus was that Heldrakes were so bad because they were Flyers with a 360 degree "turret", and so it didn't much matter where you put your mans or how you might try and "bubblewrap" important stuff, a Heldrake could just zip over whatever was 'in the way', set fire to all the things, and moonwalk about the board unopposed.
Even account for PotMS, you can still really only move 6", as you'll likely want to fire both Flamestorms. It's also worth noting that Land Raiders in general want to be close to the enemy- Torrent Flamestorms on a Redeemer won't change that; the tank is still likely- if not guaranteed- to end up in melta range.
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: Add Rending to the profile.
Psycannon: Change Salvo to always use the maximum range.
Absolutely NO! The Psilencer is already good and deadly to the things it's meant to really smite, which are the vast majority of T4 multi-wound units. It does not need an additional buff just because you want your Codex: Easy Mode back.
The Psycannon's so-called 'problems' only need to be addressed by a fix to Salvo weapons in general.
I'd like to point out that Psilencers are actually fairly gakky at present, and something does need to be done about them. IMO, changing them to 30" range and Salvo 4/6 (or preferably 36" range) would actually be a good direction- there's a good parallel in the DE Splinter Cannon, which should be considered the benchmark of a "good" Salvo weapon, in that it has sufficiently long range and high RoF to provide substantial benefit to the squad, no matter if they move or not.
But I would agree that Rending is not the direction to go for Psilencers.
EDIT: I'd also like to mention that Psilencers should perhaps be S5 as well; while S5 isn't particularly impressive on its own, S5, plus a range buff and Salvo 4/6 would make them passably good midrange anti-horde, and also a credible threat to not only multi-wound T4/5 models, but also solo T6 MCs; I mean, you're probably not scaring a Riptide off on account of its 2+ armor- same really applies to the Dreadknight as well, though DKs at least have the decency to want to punch things like a proper MC- but the things that GKs are, fluff-wise, fighting all the time would have to carefully weigh out whether or not getting into view of a Psilencer would be a good idea.
It would also help make Psilencers a good choice in comparison to the Incinerator and Psycannon; both of the latter offer higher Strength and better AP; Incinerators are also Ignores Cover/Templates, while Psycannons snag Rending (for whatever reason...), but Psilencers would provide weight of fire and Force.
Also, I rather like that Psilencers are Force weapons; it contributes to the flavor, IMO, of the GK army that they- at least for now- have the only Force weapon that's a gun in the entire game.
Bill1138 wrote: Dreadnought Weapons:
Exchange Twin-linked Autocannon for a Twin-linked Hydra Autocannon, (same cost)
Or rather, just make the ability to gain Skyfire as an upgrade to the basic twin-linked Autocannon.
Even easier: make Stormravens better AA for Grey Knights (maybe diversify GK Stormraven missile options), and give some kind of option for 'ground-based' Skyfire. Pretty much every army in the game has a ground-based AA unit as well as a superiority "fighter" of some kind. Not only that, but this helps diversify options for GKs a little bit more.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
55- Razorback: replace TL heavy flamer option for Heavy Incinerator and have it cost around 10pts
Just make it a regular Incinerator.
It's worth noting that said Incinerator should be twin-linked; but it's also worth noting that the Heavy Incinerator at 10 points would be waaaay undercosted- vanilla Marines are paying 20 points for a twin-linked Heavy Flamer, so that's a good point to start at for pricing a twin-linked Incinerator on the GK Razorback.
Of course, it'd be really chill if GK vehicles could swap HB/AC mounts for Psycannons, at an appropriate cost, naturally.
Bill1138 wrote: 270- Land Raider Redeemer: Give Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
No, no, and NO!
First, Grey Knights are defined by their iconic wargear. No giving that up, just as basic Marines cannot give up Bolters. There's really nothing wrong with Purgations, other than the fact that Dreadknights are again, too amazing of an auto-include.
Deploy these guys properly with good LoS and a decent field of fire, and they can cover a pretty area with their firepower. Besides, GK's shouldn't ever be a static gunline force.
Land Raiders are already viewed as universally over-costed. And again, remember all the whining Marines players did, (and still do!), over Helldrakes? This would be equally as bad.
A 'Deemer with Torrent Flamestorms, costed at 270 points, would IMO be fairly reasonable.
It's also worth noting that the Baal Predator thread discussed changing the Flamestorm Cannon to a Torrent weapon; the general consensus was that Heldrakes were so bad because they were Flyers with a 360 degree "turret", and so it didn't much matter where you put your mans or how you might try and "bubblewrap" important stuff, a Heldrake could just zip over whatever was 'in the way', set fire to all the things, and moonwalk about the board unopposed.
Even account for PotMS, you can still really only move 6", as you'll likely want to fire both Flamestorms. It's also worth noting that Land Raiders in general want to be close to the enemy- Torrent Flamestorms on a Redeemer won't change that; the tank is still likely- if not guaranteed- to end up in melta range.
Whiskey144,
I fully agree with your solution to the Psilencers (+1S, Salvo 4/6, 36" range) It gives them at least a chance to wound T8, and allows it to be used on the move without too much of a penalty. It is more elegant than me slapping Rending onto the profile.
You didn't touch on Salvo's effect on the Psycannon. I still think the Psycannon either needs Salvo to use its maximum range, or likewise have the Psycannon's maximum range increased to 36". If it's increased to 36", then when moving, the entire unit can fire at at least 18", and when they're stationary they can all fire at at least 24". 12" range on moving PAGK is no good when using it costs them their melee weapons and their ability to charge.
My main reason for making Dreadnoughts anti-air is that they struggle to find a role in the Elite Slot when Purifiers serve as anti-hoard as well as Warp Charge batteries.
I'll accept my suggested Razorback pricing to be off, but I do think it makes sense for vehicle mounted template weapons to have Torrent, and not just the Grey Knights. They carry more fuel, and can pressurize it more for greater range than a man-portable version, and it would help to clear an area for the unit inside to disembark. What pricing do you think would be fair for a Heavy Incinerator on a Razorback? 20pts like it is for the Dreadknight?
Bill1138 wrote: Whiskey144,
I fully agree with your solution to the Psilencers (+1S, Salvo 4/6, 36" range) It gives them at least a chance to wound T8, and allows it to be used on the move without too much of a penalty. It is more elegant than me slapping Rending onto the profile.
You didn't touch on Salvo's effect on the Psycannon. I still think the Psycannon either needs Salvo to use its maximum range, or likewise have the Psycannon's maximum range increased to 36". If it's increased to 36", then when moving, the entire unit can fire at at least 18", and when they're stationary they can all fire at at least 24". 12" range on moving PAGK is no good when using it costs them their melee weapons and their ability to charge.
Truthfully, I think Psycannons as a whole need to be completely reworked, and the whole "Psycannons are betterer Assault Cannons" thing should be dumped faster than a 10 pound turd. Of course, I also think that the old-school Daemonhunter style Psybolt ammo of "no invuln save allowed" was pretty boss, and would also put an end to the many things that like to screw around with re-rollable 2++ shenanigans.
In any case, if Salvo rules remain as-present, then yes, a range buff for Psilencers and Psycannons would, IMO, be in order. OTOH, if the mechanics of Salvo are changed, then a range buff may not be necessary. It's also worth noting that the old-school Psycannons used a "Suspensor Web" effect, in that you could use an Assault profile that cut range in half, or a Heavy profile that leveraged full range. Obviously the 5th Edition book changed it- and IMO for the worse really.
So to sum up, the only reason for the range buff is to compensate for Salvo rules; I mostly modeled the proposed changes for the Psilencer off of the Splinter Cannon, which remains the one well-designed Salvo weapon in the entire game; Scion HSVGs are a possibility (SM Grav only gets a pass for not being bad because it's the best counter to 2+ armor MCs) for a runner up, but have severe limitations, particularly for range- much like the Psycannon.
Bill1138 wrote: My main reason for making Dreadnoughts anti-air is that they struggle to find a role in the Elite Slot when Purifiers serve as anti-hoard as well as Warp Charge batteries.
I'm not disputing that GK Dreads getting an anti-aircraft role in the list is a bad idea- in fact, I quite like it. I just think that Stormravens as GKAA should also be improved as anti-air, so as to provide multiple options; most, if not all, armies have multiple solutions to things like horde infantry, elite infantry, heavy armor, aircraft, etc. GKs shouldn't be left in the cold on that front.
Bill1138 wrote: I'll accept my suggested Razorback pricing to be off, but I do think it makes sense for vehicle mounted template weapons to have Torrent, and not just the Grey Knights. They carry more fuel, and can pressurize it more for greater range than a man-portable version, and it would help to clear an area for the unit inside to disembark. What pricing do you think would be fair for a Heavy Incinerator on a Razorback? 20pts like it is for the Dreadknight?
I don't necessarily dispute that vehicle-mounted Templates should probably have Torrent due to the various advantages that a vehicle would have as a weapons platform. What I do dispute, is that it would be a necessarily good idea. It's actually the case that the only unit which could be considered a dedicated flame tank, that also carries infantry, is the Land Raider Redeemer. Razorbacks and Immolators can take twin-linked HFs, but they can't get the substantial power of, say, a Flamestorm (S6/AP3), or an Inferno Cannon (S6/AP4/Torrent), or the other high-end template weapons that are typically reserved for vehicles.
If you're dead set on Heavy Incinerator Razorbacks, then I'd probably have a gander at this thread about rebalancing Baal Predator tanks with Flamestorm Cannons, as the subject of changing said weapon to a Torrent flamer was brought up (and also objected to on the basis of "but Heldrakes!"). Also has some a pretty good explanation about why Heldrakes were considered so annoying and despised so vehemently.
Psilencers: They'd be far too good at S5.
Remember what these are really aimed at nailing - namely all those multi-wound T4/5 models, of which Xenos armies especially can contain a fairly moderate to large number. Plus the fact that the majority of these multi-wound units either do not have 3+ or better saves, or else end up paying through the nose for those higher saves.
S4 is the only thing really keeping Psilencers decently balanced, as the Force buff has made these gun highly dangerous to those medium level units. (and Force is not that easy for most armies to dispel due to it being a Blessing)
They're actually a pretty solid upgrade for Terminators who're running Halberds. You get a weight of fire Force shooting attack, and can follow it up in combat with the ability to gain S7 Force attacks.
Sure T8 can't be shot down, but then, how much T8 is there outside of Wraithlords & Wraithknights?
or look at it this way;
12 S4/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers. (T4/W3/5++)
BS4 = 8 hits
S4 vs. T4 = 4 wounds
4 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.32 saves
With Force active, that's on average a total of 6-9 wounds being taken out of that squad!
12 S5/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers.
BS4 = 8 hits
S5 vs. T4 = 5.28 wounds (we'll round down)
5 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.65 saves.
With Force active, that same unit is now typically losing on average 9-12 wounds! Even on average rolls, that's half the unit evaporating on the spot.
And that's without taking into account that Grey Knights can gain easy access to additional shooting augments such as guaranteed Prescience, or the chance of rolling up the likes of Perfect Timing and/or Foreboding.
Psilencers are fine. If you make them more threatening to the likes of Wraith constructs and those high save units like Centurians/Pallies/Meganobs, then all you end up doing is making them utterly godly vs. the vast majority of non-T4/5 2+ save units.
Psycannons: If Rending stays, then range needs to stay short.
S7 Rending is simply too good on the whole. Hence why so many people hated them under the last codex where they were a rather obnoxious no-brainer choice, since they could take on absolutely everything under the sun.
If Rending goes, then sure, a 36" range is still pretty well balanced, as now the gun becomes a hybrid of a Heavy Bolter/Autocannon. High rate of fire S7 is still scary, and can still Hull Point light to medium vehicles to death quite readily.
Experiment 626 wrote: Psilencers: They'd be far too good at S5.
Remember what these are really aimed at nailing - namely all those multi-wound T4/5 models, of which Xenos armies especially can contain a fairly moderate to large number. Plus the fact that the majority of these multi-wound units either do not have 3+ or better saves, or else end up paying through the nose for those higher saves.
S4 is the only thing really keeping Psilencers decently balanced, as the Force buff has made these gun highly dangerous to those medium level units. (and Force is not that easy for most armies to dispel due to it being a Blessing)
They're actually a pretty solid upgrade for Terminators who're running Halberds. You get a weight of fire Force shooting attack, and can follow it up in combat with the ability to gain S7 Force attacks.
Sure T8 can't be shot down, but then, how much T8 is there outside of Wraithlords & Wraithknights?
or look at it this way;
12 S4/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers. (T4/W3/5++)
BS4 = 8 hits
S4 vs. T4 = 4 wounds
4 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.32 saves
With Force active, that's on average a total of 6-9 wounds being taken out of that squad!
12 S5/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers.
BS4 = 8 hits
S5 vs. T4 = 5.28 wounds (we'll round down)
5 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.65 saves.
With Force active, that same unit is now typically losing on average 9-12 wounds! Even on average rolls, that's half the unit evaporating on the spot.
And that's without taking into account that Grey Knights can gain easy access to additional shooting augments such as guaranteed Prescience, or the chance of rolling up the likes of Perfect Timing and/or Foreboding.
Psilencers are fine. If you make them more threatening to the likes of Wraith constructs and those high save units like Centurians/Pallies/Meganobs, then all you end up doing is making them utterly godly vs. the vast majority of non-T4/5 2+ save units.
You're throwing out these Divination powers as if they're unique to the Grey Knights. They are not. Other Codexes have much better shooting than the Grey Knights AND just as much access to Divination as the Grey Knights, which we can only get from Librarians and Brother Captains, and 130+pts for Divination on a unit is paying for whatever benefit is received, so it's not like the unit gets it for free or "easily" as you suggest.
Your numbers for the "Psilencer" actually used the Gatling Psilencer's 12 shots. Against anything with a decent save, the Gatling Psilencer is a bit underwhelming, but usable. It is the regular Psilencer that needs fixing.
Let's look at the weapons in relation to your T4 target unit.
Psilencer (mobile) (S4, Heavy 6)
So if the unit moves (since you previously argued that Grey Knights should never form static gun-lines) they are reduced to BS1. That means they'll statistically have 1 hit.
Rolling To-Wound reduces that to a 50% chance to cause 1 wound.
Your 5++ save reduces that by a third to a 33% chance to cause 1 unsaved wound. So if the Psilencer stays the same as you suggested, and the unit moves as you say it should, it will only statistically wound one model every three turns, which means only 1-2 casualties for the entire length of the game. And that's not taking into account having to get Force off. Which they have to pass their Psychic test, not killing the Psilencer in the process, and then not be denied.
If the Psilencer stays the same, and the Unit stays stationary, that increases their number of hits to 4, which becomes 2 wounds, and finally results in 1.33 unsaved wounds. That's 4 wounds every 3 turns.
Let's look at the Storm Bolter for comparison. (S4, Assault 2)
2 shots (mobile or stationary, doesn't matter) at BS4 will statistically result in 1.33 hits, which becomes 0.66 Wounds, which finally results in 0.44 unsaved wounds after your 5++. On the move (as you said the Grey Knights should always be) the standard Storm Bolter has a better chance to cause a wound than the Psilencer. And when you combine this with the fact that the Psilencer costs points, sacrifices the Nemesis Force Sword, and dis-allows the user from charging after its use, the weapon is really not good.
Let's check the numbers if the Psilencer were S5, Salvo 4/6, which you shot down as too over-powered.
Psilencer (mobile) 4 shots with a 2/3 chance to hit result in 2.66 hits, then a 2/3 chance to Wound results 1.77 Wounds, and finally a 2/3 chance to be unsaved results in 1.18 Unsaved Wounds. A marked improvement over the Storm Bolter's 0.44 Wounds. Yet this is appropriate for 10pts, a Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter, and the ability to charge after its use. And it still requires a successful casting of Force for Instant Death.
Psilencer (stationary) 6 shots with a 2/3 chance to hit results in 4 hits, then a 2/3 chance to Wound results in 2.66 Wounds, and finally a 2/3 chance to be unsaved will result in 1.77 Unsaved Wounds.Yet this is still appropriate for 10pts, a Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter, and the ability to charge after its use as well has sacrificing movement. And it still requires a successful casting of Force for Instant Death.
Now let's take a look at the Gatling Psilencers. (S4, Heavy 12)
12 shots at a 2/3 chance to hit is indeed 8 hits.
Those 8 hits have a 50% chance to wound a T4 model, reducing it to 4 Wounds
Those 4 wounds have a 2/3 chance to get past your 5++, resulting in 2.66 Wounds (statistically)
That is 3 Wounds. If Force fails to activate for any reason (and there are plenty), that is a potential one model killed. If Force is successfully activated, then it may kill 2-3 models. But you, knowing that your Bloodthirsters have three wounds, if you see a Gatling Psilencer coming in, you can use your Warp Charge dice to deny the Dreadknight Force, effectively castrating the Gatling Psilencer.
If we start listing every gun available to another faction that's better than the Psilencer, we'll never end. The Psilencer isn't being fielded in competative lists because it is objectively worse than most heavy weapons out there. It is actually one of the only instances when a Heavy Weapon would benefit from becoming Salvo.
Just for the record, Vanilla Marines pay nothing for swap the TLHB of a Razorback to a twin-linked heavy flamer. It's the three other options that cost 20 points each.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just for the record, Vanilla Marines pay nothing for swap the TLHB of a Razorback to a twin-linked heavy flamer. It's the three other options that cost 20 points each.
That was my train of thought. I figured I'd split the difference between Free and the Dreadknight's 20pts, being as the Heavy Incinerator is better than the Twin-linked Heavy Flamer, yet isn't benefiting from the Dreadknight's mobility.
I'm not particularly attached to the point values, I'd just like to see the Grey Knights get some more Torrent if they aren't going to be given any decent long range shooting.
I'd further argue that 125 points is just fine for a Brother-Captain. Yes, it's only 5 points more than a Terminator Captain in C:SM, but no one takes the Terminator Captain because he's too expensive for what you get in the first place, and because it's a melee-centric character that's forced to either use a 200+ point transport, Deep Strike, or hoof it.
Experiment 626 wrote: Psilencers: They'd be far too good at S5.
Remember what these are really aimed at nailing - namely all those multi-wound T4/5 models, of which Xenos armies especially can contain a fairly moderate to large number. Plus the fact that the majority of these multi-wound units either do not have 3+ or better saves, or else end up paying through the nose for those higher saves.
S4 is the only thing really keeping Psilencers decently balanced, as the Force buff has made these gun highly dangerous to those medium level units. (and Force is not that easy for most armies to dispel due to it being a Blessing)
They're actually a pretty solid upgrade for Terminators who're running Halberds. You get a weight of fire Force shooting attack, and can follow it up in combat with the ability to gain S7 Force attacks.
Sure T8 can't be shot down, but then, how much T8 is there outside of Wraithlords & Wraithknights?
or look at it this way;
12 S4/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers. (T4/W3/5++)
BS4 = 8 hits
S4 vs. T4 = 4 wounds
4 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.32 saves
With Force active, that's on average a total of 6-9 wounds being taken out of that squad!
12 S5/Force shots vs. 6 Bloodcrushers.
BS4 = 8 hits
S5 vs. T4 = 5.28 wounds (we'll round down)
5 wounds vs. 5++ save = 1.65 saves.
With Force active, that same unit is now typically losing on average 9-12 wounds! Even on average rolls, that's half the unit evaporating on the spot.
And that's without taking into account that Grey Knights can gain easy access to additional shooting augments such as guaranteed Prescience, or the chance of rolling up the likes of Perfect Timing and/or Foreboding.
Psilencers are fine. If you make them more threatening to the likes of Wraith constructs and those high save units like Centurians/Pallies/Meganobs, then all you end up doing is making them utterly godly vs. the vast majority of non-T4/5 2+ save units.
Psycannons: If Rending stays, then range needs to stay short.
S7 Rending is simply too good on the whole. Hence why so many people hated them under the last codex where they were a rather obnoxious no-brainer choice, since they could take on absolutely everything under the sun.
If Rending goes, then sure, a 36" range is still pretty well balanced, as now the gun becomes a hybrid of a Heavy Bolter/Autocannon. High rate of fire S7 is still scary, and can still Hull Point light to medium vehicles to death quite readily.
As it stands though, the opportunity cost of taking a Psilencer is simply too high; an Incinerator actually works with mobile PAGKs, and Psycannons, as you said, are still very good on anything else. I do think that your comparison is... interesting. I don't disagree with the results, but there is the fact that the Gatling Psilencer (IE, the 12-shot version) is only deployable via a Dreadknight, which has arguably better weapons to carry- like one of the very small number of 5" Blasts in the GK book, or the Inferno Cannon-in-disguise Heavy Incinerator.
Also, because I've not actually looked around for it, could you help me put together a list of multi-wound T4/5 models with "low" saves of 4+/4++ or less? There's the mentioned Bloodcrushers, as well as, off the top of my head, regular Nobs, Tyranid Warriors... and that's all I can think of. I could- and in fact probably am- missing quite a few, but I can't for the life of me think of them.
In any case, the S5 Psilencer was aimed more at helping kill T6/3+ "solo" units, like Daemon Princes or even Greater Daemons. I rather doubt that S5 would actually help that much against T4/2+ or T5/2+ multi-wound, and in truth I hadn't actually considered said 2+ armor multi-wound models to be a potential "good" target for an S5 Psilencer.
Also, I personally would love to see Psycannons return to being S6, 3 shots, and ignore invulnerable saves, rather than the S7/Rending ridiculousness we currently have. I'd also like to point out that I explicitly mentioned a strong dislike for the current Psycannon rules, and my comments regarding Psycannon range/Salvo mechanics was aimed more at fixing Psycannons to be more distinctive than the current "betterer Assault Cannon" thing they've got going, and then if they remained Salvo a range buff would be appropriate. Again, to be clear, I quite despise the current S7/Rending Psycannons, because they feel like a dressed up Assault Cannon that gets to be "more better" because reasons.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just for the record, Vanilla Marines pay nothing for swap the TLHB of a Razorback to a twin-linked heavy flamer. It's the three other options that cost 20 points each.
I now realize that I temporarily had the dumbs, because I'd forgotten that detail. Since literally ever other gun option on the Razorback (TLLC, TLAC, Las/Plas) is a 20 point cost, it must have somehow stuck that so too were twin-linked HFs.
Apologies, I was assuming paired Psilencers - either through the likes of Purifyers/Purgators/Pallies who can run 2+ at only 5 men, or else taking a full 10 man Strike or Termie squad and making use of Combat Squads.
The thing with them is, one on it's own is definitely 'meh'. Paired or even taking the full 4 on the likes of Purgators is nasty though... hence why S5 would be too much IMHO. (guaranteed if they were to become S5 + Force, we'd see them everywhere!)
Keep in mind that the vulnerable units to these things include the likes of;
- Nobz & Flash Gits, and to a lesser extent Biker Nobs due to their max save of only 4+
- Tyranid Warriors, Shrikes & Raveners, plus to a lesser degree Hive Guard & Tyrant Guard
- Necron Wraiths. (*let's face it - S4/5 weight of fire is exactly how you actively deal with these guys!)
- Ogryns & Bullgryns
- non-MoN Chaos Spawn
- Bloodcrushers, Flesh Hounds, Fiends, Flamers & Screamers. Beasts of Nurgle & Plague Drones to a slightly lesser degree due to T5.
- Swarms of all varieties.
I'm sure I'm still missing a few units as well - Grotestques IIRC are T5 without a save? Also the likes of the Clawed Fiend from Beast Packs? So really it's only other Loyalist Marines and Eldar who pretty much laugh at Psilencers, along with Tau to a degree due to their Crisis Suits sporting 3+ saves.
As a Tzeentch Daemon player, I can tell you that weight of fire S5+ is heinously deadly. Even with only 14-16 or so shots coming from a single casting of Flickering Fire, being able to cause wounds on predominately 3+ really adds up. Typically it's enough to kill off at least 3-4 MEQ's in a single volley. Vs. non-3+ saves though, it's just gross as opponents start losing typically 6-7+ wounds from the target squad in one go.
If Psilencers were suddenly able to become so efficient, you'd pretty much end up removing the above units from the game.
As for dealing with those T5/6+ 'solo' MC's and the like... You have Force Halberds, Daemonhammers and Hammerhand to effectively combat them. Plus those heavier Psycannons, and Dreads who can act as gun emplacements, plus Stormravens & Land Raiders... oh, and freaking Dreadknights!
So maybe Wraithknights and the Lord of Change w/Boomstick + 2x Greater Rewards + Lv3 Divination are still hugely murderous... (and likely the new Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster, but then he's likely running the Chaos player 340+pts anyways, so for that cost, he should be a freaking b********!)
Regarding Psycannons and the idea of removing invuln saves again... please no. That 5++ is pretty much the only save outside of cover that Daemons get on the whole. Only Princes, 'Thirsters and a 16% chance on the Greater Rewards can get us a 3+ save. (and we have no 2+ armour saves)
Plus, when Psycannons had that ability, Daemons were still just a tag-along within the CSM codex itself, instead of their own stand alone army, AND, the Imperial player either had limited numbers of them, (because the Grey Knights were allied to an IG/Marine/Witch Hunters army), or else the Daemons got significant bonuses to make-up for the fact that Daemonhunters owned them pretty hard.
I'd rather see them remain S7, but gain something like say Shred or re-roll 1's to-wound vs. Daemons & Psykers. Still more effective vs. their iconic targets, but not an outright 'delete whatever' button that the old ignores invulns were back in the day...
Slayer222 wrote: If the Knight was nerfed I would rather take that over costed landraider than use a purgation squad.
I think the main issues with Purgations actually stem from;
a) The Dreadknight is frankly too good to be true in terms of it's cost for what it routinely does in-game.
b) Purifyers bring the same number of special weapons, AND, get more attacks, AND get both Cleansing Flame + Mastery Lv2 for barely a handful of pts more.
Do the following things:
a) Slightly increase the base cost of the Dreadknight, because he frankly is that good.
b) Reduce Purifyers to only 2 special weapons like most other squads.
c) Swap out Night Vision & Banishment for perhaps Monster Hunter and Prescience. (now how awesome are S4 Psilencers?!)
Prescience might actually be a bit much combo'd alongside Monster Hunter when taking Psilencers though... Would definitely need some testing!
Experiment 626 wrote: Apologies, I was assuming paired Psilencers - either through the likes of Purifyers/Purgators/Pallies who can run 2+ at only 5 men, or else taking a full 10 man Strike or Termie squad and making use of Combat Squads.
The thing with them is, one on it's own is definitely 'meh'. Paired or even taking the full 4 on the likes of Purgators is nasty though... hence why S5 would be too much IMHO. (guaranteed if they were to become S5 + Force, we'd see them everywhere!)
The thing is that even considering that, the current incarnation of the Psycannon, and the lack of weapon variety that the Grey Knights, quite frankly languish under, means that Psycannons would very likely still be preferred- S7/Rending means that they can, potentially, crack open almost anything in the game. There's simply very few guns that the GKs have in general, and of them the best "TAC" option ends up being the Psycannon.
It comes back to opportunity cost- do you take the Psilencer that can cripple multi-wound T4/5 units, or do you take a Psycannon that can potentially crack open a Land Raider or Monolith. Not only that, but 7th has heavily emphasized the "Spam S6/7, Win" meta that started off with some of the 6th edition armies- Psilencers, being S4/AP-, simply cannot hurt certain things- or else the probability of a Psilencer hurting something is simply so low as to be a non-issue. For example, Riptides are functionally immune to Psilencers, but- at least in theory- are most definitely not immune to Psycannons.
Experiment 626 wrote: Keep in mind that the vulnerable units to these things include the likes of;
- Nobz & Flash Gits, and to a lesser extent Biker Nobs due to their max save of only 4+
- Tyranid Warriors, Shrikes & Raveners, plus to a lesser degree Hive Guard & Tyrant Guard
- Necron Wraiths. (*let's face it - S4/5 weight of fire is exactly how you actively deal with these guys!)
- Ogryns & Bullgryns
- non-MoN Chaos Spawn
- Bloodcrushers, Flesh Hounds, Fiends, Flamers & Screamers. Beasts of Nurgle & Plague Drones to a slightly lesser degree due to T5.
- Swarms of all varieties.
I'm sure I'm still missing a few units as well - Grotestques IIRC are T5 without a save? Also the likes of the Clawed Fiend from Beast Packs? So really it's only other Loyalist Marines and Eldar who pretty much laugh at Psilencers, along with Tau to a degree due to their Crisis Suits sporting 3+ saves.
Swarms aren't, IMO, a big issue- most (if not all) of them are, AFAIK, T3, and most armies are throwing around enough S6+ to make Swarms pretty much GEQ anyways- not to mention the fact that Blast/Template weapons make Swarms cry even harder. As far as all the others, I hadn't actually considered all of them- I'd rather forgotten about the existence of Ogryn/Bullgryn (mostly because the models are still ugly as piss), and certainly there is a wider variety than I had initially considered. So, yes, you may have a point that Psilencers with S5+Force would be functioning as a hard-counter to most/all of these units... though I'd argue that Wraiths don't much care on account of having enough mobility to easily get into combat and then mulch anybody toting a Psilencer.
Experiment 626 wrote: As a Tzeentch Daemon player, I can tell you that weight of fire S5+ is heinously deadly. Even with only 14-16 or so shots coming from a single casting of Flickering Fire, being able to cause wounds on predominately 3+ really adds up. Typically it's enough to kill off at least 3-4 MEQ's in a single volley. Vs. non-3+ saves though, it's just gross as opponents start losing typically 6-7+ wounds from the target squad in one go.
If Psilencers were suddenly able to become so efficient, you'd pretty much end up removing the above units from the game.
I think something to consider though, is that Psilencers are still AP-; they might cut through multi-wound models if you can pop Force, but you're still having to breach saves of all kinds- cover, armor, invuln. Most of those units do tend to have relatively poor saves, yes- but they still get those saves.
In any case, in order to load up on Psilencers, you'd have to either field Dreadknights with Gatling Psilencers (expensive, and competing with Heavy Incinerators/Heavy Psycannons), or go with other infantry squads armed with regular Psilencers... which are currently 24" Heavy 6, so have to sit still to fire at anything resembling useful effect, and have a short range which simultaneously requires moving around.... it's not even a Catch 22, it's just a gakky deal. To get around 14-16 shots, to compare to Flickering Fire, you'd need a minimum of two Psilencers, or a Gatling Psilencer. As mentioned, this is currently a poor trade- Psycannons are pretty much the only good heavy weapon the GKs have for TAC purposes, and even then they only really work on GKTs. Not only that, but these are actual guns, not psychic powers- I'm not sure that the equivalence holds up.
It's also worth noting that killing 3-4 MEQ isn't super impressive these days- at one time, I'm sure it was, but with S6/7 wound spam running around and the amount of Ignores Cover/AP3 or better weapons that can get thrown around, 3-4 MEQ is small potatoes.
Experiment 626 wrote: As for dealing with those T5/6+ 'solo' MC's and the like... You have Force Halberds, Daemonhammers and Hammerhand to effectively combat them. Plus those heavier Psycannons, and Dreads who can act as gun emplacements, plus Stormravens & Land Raiders... oh, and freaking Dreadknights!
Dreads are lacking at present, while Halberds/Daemonhammers/Hammerhand requires you to get into combat. The particular MCs I'm thinking of off-hand tend to be things that want to shoot a lot, and also themselves tend to be either Jump/Jet or FMC. Admittedly, Psycannons-as-present are a good solution. Stormravens realistically have more important things to kill (excepting the case of an FMC, which is a good thing for a Stormraven to try and kill), and Land Raiders are currently a good 20+ points too expensive. Dreadknights are an option... but I'm not sure how well it holds up to, say, a 2++ re-rollable (since 2++ re-rollable is bs no matter what it comes on).
Experiment 626 wrote: So maybe Wraithknights and the Lord of Change w/Boomstick + 2x Greater Rewards + Lv3 Divination are still hugely murderous... (and likely the new Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster, but then he's likely running the Chaos player 340+pts anyways, so for that cost, he should be a freaking b********!)
Again, I was more thinking of T5/6 multi-wound with around 3+ armor; even with S5 the likelihood of gibbing a Wraithknight/Wraithlord is pretty nearly non-existent. The other issue I see is that Psilencers with S4 rely on Force to actually function "properly". Psilencers with S5 would benefit greatly from Force, but it wouldn't be necessary for it to be cast in order for Psilencers to function.
That's part of the reason I think Psilencers being S5 would be a great buff- they'd no longer require Force to be useful.
Experiment 626 wrote: Regarding Psycannons and the idea of removing invuln saves again... please no. That 5++ is pretty much the only save outside of cover that Daemons get on the whole. Only Princes, 'Thirsters and a 16% chance on the Greater Rewards can get us a 3+ save. (and we have no 2+ armour saves)
Plus, when Psycannons had that ability, Daemons were still just a tag-along within the CSM codex itself, instead of their own stand alone army, AND, the Imperial player either had limited numbers of them, (because the Grey Knights were allied to an IG/Marine/Witch Hunters army), or else the Daemons got significant bonuses to make-up for the fact that Daemonhunters owned them pretty hard.
I'd rather see them remain S7, but gain something like say Shred or re-roll 1's to-wound vs. Daemons & Psykers. Still more effective vs. their iconic targets, but not an outright 'delete whatever' button that the old ignores invulns were back in the day...
Psycannons, IMO, should have actually been left alone from what they were in the old Daemonhunter book. S6/AP4, and either Assault 3 or Heavy 3 (depending on whether you wanted to fire on the move or not, really), with the former being 18" and the latter 36" (IIRC). Insofar as Daemons lacking armor saves- I guess make a thread about Daemons being able to get armor?
One of the things is, Psilencers are supposedly the best gun to kill multi-wound T4 (and some T5) models with average-to-poor saves. So why not make Psycannons the counter to units with amazing invulnerable saves? I mean, the other option is to remove the mechanics that allow for re-rollable 2++ saves, since that's one of the most broken bs things in the game (IMO, at least). Being able to re-roll 2+ cover saves can be countered with Ignores Cover- most of the time units that pull that flavor of bs tend to be T3/4 infantry of some kind (Jetseers, IIRC), and you can just set that gak on fire with some kind of flamer template.
A re-rollable 2+ invulnerable save cannot be countered in such a manner- I mean sure, with GKs you can try Banishment, but then you're still dealing with a re-rollable 3+ invuln, which is still better than a straight 2+ invuln. If Psilencers should stay S4, then why not drop Psycannons to S6/3 shots and make them ignore invulnerable saves? That gives the gun a unique role, doesn't it?
Slayer222 wrote: If the Knight was nerfed I would rather take that over costed landraider than use a purgation squad.
I think the main issues with Purgations actually stem from;
a) The Dreadknight is frankly too good to be true in terms of it's cost for what it routinely does in-game.
b) Purifyers bring the same number of special weapons, AND, get more attacks, AND get both Cleansing Flame + Mastery Lv2 for barely a handful of pts more.
Do the following things:
a) Slightly increase the base cost of the Dreadknight, because he frankly is that good.
b) Reduce Purifyers to only 2 special weapons like most other squads.
c) Swap out Night Vision & Banishment for perhaps Monster Hunter and Prescience. (now how awesome are S4 Psilencers?!)
Prescience might actually be a bit much combo'd alongside Monster Hunter when taking Psilencers though... Would definitely need some testing!
Truthfully, Night Vision is fine- Nightfighting just needs to be reworked to actually have a bigger effect on the game. I'd also argue that Purifiers should only get 2x special- so I agree with you there, though I would also say that Purifiers should be able to do double special at 5 men, to help provide some extra differentiation between Purifiers and Strikes.
I'd also take Purifiers down to Mastery Lv1, as Grey Knights don't seem to have issues generating Warp Charge. Back in 6th Purifiers being Mastery Lv2 would have been important, as that's the only way that they'd have been able to cast the current incarnation of Cleansing Flame as a WC2 power, but given how Warp Charge is now merged into an army-wide pool, Purifiers being Mastery Lv1 isn't a big deal- they don't need Lv2 to be able to cast WC2 powers anymore.
I'd also say that I'd drop Banishment from Purgation squads, and instead allow them to get Vortex of Doom, or perhaps change the Daemonology disciplines (Sanctic/Malefic) to be "double-Primaris", where there's two Primaris options and you can pick which one you want (so you can't get both, but you can change which Primaris you take), and make a new witchfire power that's geared for Purgation squads, that they would know by default similar to how Purifiers get Cleansing Flame and pretty much everybody else has Banishment and Hammerhand.
The other option is that Purgation squads could get much cheaper heavies, or perhaps even get a few GK-variations of the existing Marine heavies- like some kind of blessed multi-melta or something?
Here's my version 3.0 idea for improving internal balance. Remember that external balance would involve fixing the problems other Codexes have, not leaving holes in this one.
Note: The Aegis, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), and 1 Mastery Level of Psyker are essentially the Grey Knights' Chapter Tactics, and the other Space Marine chapters don't have to pay for their Chapter Tactics.
Change the Primaris Power for Sanctic to a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Instead of Codex-wide Banishment, give Stern's Zone of Banishment to the HQs Purifiers, and Paladins.
Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: S5, Salvo 4/6, Range 36”, (still Force)
Psycannon: Range 36”
Dreadnought Weapons:
TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
Troops
Strike Squads: Forget what they currently are. Make them for the Grey Knights what Scouts are for the Space Marines, (relatively) cheap shooty units with Infiltrate, and the ability to take Homers. Change their gear and other special rules appropriately.
Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
My reasoning: In the current version of Warhammer 40k, “Jack of all Trades, Master of none” doesn’t work, so units need to be more specialized.
Strike Squads are slimmed down to essentially being Scouts.
Purgation Squads are actually able to fill the role of Devastators.
Dreadnoughts serve the same role for the GK as Hydras serve in the AM.
HQ prices are balanced so the Librarian won’t be the only choice taken in most games.
Paladins have survivability to better balance their Opportunity costs.
Thus, every unit is unique, and has a special role, making every unit in the Codex viable for competitive play without certain units being “handicaps”. As I said at the beginning, it’s not about making the Grey Knights better than other codexes. Ideally, every Codex would be fixed to have good internal balance, with unique flavors to the units of each. The Codexes can’t be balanced with each other, if they don’t each have their own internal balance.
Perhaps make the StormShield on the NDK a 4++ and cost more?
T6 2+ 5++ W4 is downright brutal, even for the cost. But at least with an army full of AT weapons, it can go down. A T6 2+3++ W4 is just plain stupid wrong. Even if it couldn't move 12".
Change the Primaris Power for Sanctic to a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Instead of Codex-wide Banishment, give Stern's Zone of Banishment to the HQs Purifiers, and Paladins.
+1S "Psybolts" really makes 0 sense. It was a silly idea in the last codex, and still is. Rather, "Psybolts" should ideally be slightly deadlier to the likes of Daemons & Psykers. S4/Shred isn't super powerful, or else for a WC1 power, even simply allowing re-roll to-wound rolls of 1 is fair.
No to every HQ + Purifyers + Pallies getting a 24" bubble of -1 to invulns. If you want it unit wide, then shrink the bubble to a 6" radius.
*Yes you want to internally balance the book so that there are really no turd choice. HOWEVER! it's still vitally important to ensure that abilities don't go overboard on the rest of the game!
We have an entire army that relies heavily on 5++ invulns as their only real saves. Having the ability to spam 24" bubbles of -1 invuln is going to absolutely wreck that army to the point they may as well not even bother showing up.
And no, you don't "fix" this issue by suddenly giving Daemons all kinds of armour saves. Outside of Khorne's daemons, armour simply doesn't make sense for the majority of the army.
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: S5, Salvo 4/6, Range 36”, (still Force)
Psycannon: Range 36”
Dreadnought Weapons:
TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
If Psilencer goes S5, then Force needs to go. Otherwise there's no point in ever bringing T4/5 multi-wound units that aren't sporting 3+ or better saves.
Up'ing the range alone to 36" would make the current version much more flexible. Or else if you really must have 36"/S5, then giving it the likes of 'always wounds Daemons & Psykers on a 4+' would be a viable idea in place of the godly S5/Force.
Remove the Rending rule from Psycannons. Otherwise, that 24" range is the only thing keeping it from being acomplete no-brainer like it was last codex. (and fix the actual Salvo rules via the BRB!)
Just stick to giving Dreads the option to by the Skyfire ability as an additional upgrade. Hydra Autocannons would frankly look incredibly silly on a Dread due to size issues!
Bill1138 wrote: HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
- 5pts for a Force weapon + Mastery Lv. (including Telepathy access!) is a bit too cheap. 135-140 pts is still giving a 10-15pts discount to him on just the Psyker Lv. alone, while allowing the Pointy-Death stick for free essentially.
- Reduce his Zone of Banishment to 6" radius then. Keep in mind he's also a Lv2 Psyker as well, and comes guaranteed with the godly Sanctuary power.
- Crowe is too cheap at only 125pts. While he's currently over-costed, 140-150pts would is likely where he really *should* be, as he is Lv2, is +1A over a regular Bro Champ, gets I6/ap2 + re-rolls saves in Challenges AND allows for the sheer amazaballs'ness of a double-Cleanser party Rhino! (trust me, getting to fire off 2x Cleansing Flame is pretty nasty, and is a fantastic counter to any Flying Circus list out there!)
Normally I'm paying 230pts + 185 pts to do the same with Ahriman in a Rhino squad, with a big risk thrown in there. GK's can do the same, but without the almost guaranteed Perils and for cheaper.
*Note: Add in the Chaplain as a playable option.
150pts base: Termie armour + Nemesis Crozius (cannot be exchanged - EVER!) + Storm Bolter + Lv1 w/Hammerhand, Banishment & Sanctuary powers.
Can upgrade Storm bolter to a Combi-Flamer/Melta/Plasma like the Libby.
- There's no reason this guy shouldn't allowed now that the perverbial cat's out of the bag with a fully fleshed out GK codex. Should have been in the last book too. Perhaps even cost him at 165pts base because the Zealot rule is amazaballs.
Bill1138 wrote: Troops
Strike Squads: Forget what they currently are. Make them for the Grey Knights what Scouts are for the Space Marines, (relatively) cheap shooty units with Infiltrate, and the ability to take Homers. Change their gear and other special rules appropriately.
No. You cannot simply ditch your iconic equipment just because you want cheap as chips squads. The only thing Strikes need to "fix" them is to give them the Scout USR.
Infiltrate is simply too powerful. Imagine a Tournament scenario where you're only allowed to deploy 1HQ + 2 Troops units. The GK player infiltrates their Strikes to within 12.1-13" from the enemy's two units and then win the roll for 1st turn. Thanks to the Nemesis Strikeforce rules, you bring down Termies + whatever else from your Deep Strike reserves, and land everything safely within prime murdering range thanks to your infiltrated Teley Homers.
BOOM! You wipe out everything your opponent has on the table. Game is effectively over in half a turn because of how powerful Infiltrate is in a Grey Knight army.
Scout still lets Strikes function much like their background, but it keeps the alpha strike from instantly breaking the game, as your reserves cannot come down risk-free within your opponent's deployment zone before they can potentially even get a chance to react.
As for Termies:
1. Make them 35pts/model base
2. Allow a 2nd special weapon upgrade for any unit over 5 models. (ie: 6 - 10 strong units can double up)
*Note: I'd make this latter change applicable to every single Termie unit, as right now, non-GK Termies are overall purely 'meh', despite being such a fun unit.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
No Storm Shields, especially on Pallies! You have far too much ability to spam Santic and gain multiple copies of Sanctuary. Add in IG Priests and suddenly you've got ready access to re-rollable 2++ saves in combat.
If it's game breaking for Xenos armies to pull out re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, why should your Grey Knights, (or rather Imperials in general), suddenly get the same but can call it "balanced" and "fair"?
The only thing for Pallies would be to bring back the Holocaust power. (and no, not as a S6+/ap2 monstrosity either - unless it becomes similar to Typhus' Destroyer Hive and is a one-use only ability...)
Just give the Dread the ability to buy the Skyfire ability on twin-linked autocannons. Hydra cannons would frankly look hilariously stupid on a Dread!
***Purifyers: Can only take 1 special weapon at 5 men. Get the second slot at full 10 men like all the other PA squads bar the Purgators.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
Heavy Incinerator should easily be +20pts.
*Note: Add in the option for Grey Knights to take Land Speeders.
High tech, ancient equipment? Definitely fits the GK's image. Fun option would be to add Relic Plating as an additional upgrade! You don't really want to be giving out Psychic Pilot as the army already spams enough WC's, but for 3-5pts/model, you effectively give the Speeders the same benefit of being a Lv1 vs. any powers targeting them.
Oh, and add Relic Plating to the GK vehicle upgrades in the Armoury itself
Bill1138 wrote: Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
NO! You cannot dump what makes a Grey Knight a Grey Knight simply because you don't like eating the cost of replacing with specials!
Missile launchers equally make no sense. If you're 'fixing' the range of the other specials and/or perhaps dropping the cost slightly of the Psycannon (and assuming Salvo gets fixed in the BRB), then you've got enough tools without shoehorning in the stuff regular Marines get.
Make the Dreadknight no quite so much of a no-brainer auto-take, and dial back Purifyers to their assault specialist role instead of being "Super-Everything!" and suddenly Purgators find a solid role.
Adding a Storm Shield as an option to the Dreadknight is not "fixing" or "balancing" anything. Rather, it's just breaking the freaking game! You have Sanctuary on this guy. He's already viewed as undercosted and hailed as one of the best MC's in the game. Now you want him running around with a near guaranteed 2++ save to top it off?!
(hint: this is why people will call you out - this idea is equivalent to me trying say that I should be able to pick my Gifts & Psy Powers on my LoC, because... "reasons")
Bill1138 wrote: My reasoning: In the current version of Warhammer 40k, “Jack of all Trades, Master of none” doesn’t work, so units need to be more specialized.
Strike Squads are slimmed down to essentially being Scouts.
Purgation Squads are actually able to fill the role of Devastators.
Dreadnoughts serve the same role for the GK as Hydras serve in the AM.
HQ prices are balanced so the Librarian won’t be the only choice taken in most games.
Paladins have survivability to better balance their Opportunity costs.
Thus, every unit is unique, and has a special role, making every unit in the Codex viable for competitive play without certain units being “handicaps”. As I said at the beginning, it’s not about making the Grey Knights better than other codexes. Ideally, every Codex would be fixed to have good internal balance, with unique flavors to the units of each. The Codexes can’t be balanced with each other, if they don’t each have their own internal balance.
- You can't remove the defining feature of Marines in general. Sorry, but if you really want an entire army of specialists, then don't play Marines!
- So, give Strike Squad the Scout USR. Don't make them something they're not - they're still Grey Knights.
- Purgations would suit their role perfectly well by fixing the Dreadknight & dialing back the number of weapons Purifyers get to carry.
- Dreads don't need a gun that's twice their physical size though - just allow them to buy Skyfire on their dual twin-autocannons.
- HQ's might need a very slight reduction on the whole, but the Libby could also equally do with a very slight pts increase
- Paladins are already survivable. What we don't need is yet another 2++ re-rolled Deathstar!!
I'm sorry, but there are certainly a good number of suggestions here that do indeed look like they're simply about making Grey Knights better than everyone else...
And yes, it is definitely possible to make the codices both internally well balanaced, while at the same time making them fairly well balanced externally against the other books!
Just blindly trying to balance each book internally and outright ignoring how "fixes" would interact with the wider game is exactly how you go about creating the types of monstrosities such as 5th ed Grey Knights and 7th ed Daemons of Chaos.
I got to spend roughly 2 years of being forced to shelve my entire army because of such abysmal games design thanks to the last GK codex which auto-won vs. Daemons. Let's please not try and go back to those types of games.
Change the Primaris Power for Sanctic to a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Instead of Codex-wide Banishment, give Stern's Zone of Banishment to the HQs Purifiers, and Paladins.
+1S "Psybolts" really makes 0 sense. It was a silly idea in the last codex, and still is. Rather, "Psybolts" should ideally be slightly deadlier to the likes of Daemons & Psykers. S4/Shred isn't super powerful, or else for a WC1 power, even simply allowing re-roll to-wound rolls of 1 is fair.
So you're accepting the premise of a Primaris power that improves shooting, but disagreeing on the application? Shred is a good suggestion, but do you have to keep calling my suggestions "silly" or "stupid" rather than just giving your suggestions. It really just needlessly taints my opinion of you.
No to every HQ + Purifyers + Pallies getting a 24" bubble of -1 to invulns. If you want it unit wide, then shrink the bubble to a 6" radius.
*Yes you want to internally balance the book so that there are really no turd choice. HOWEVER! it's still vitally important to ensure that abilities don't go overboard on the rest of the game!
We have an entire army that relies heavily on 5++ invulns as their only real saves. Having the ability to spam 24" bubbles of -1 invuln is going to absolutely wreck that army to the point they may as well not even bother showing up.
And no, you don't "fix" this issue by suddenly giving Daemons all kinds of armour saves. Outside of Khorne's daemons, armour simply doesn't make sense for the majority of the army.
Check Stern's Zone of Banishment. It allows a -1 (to a minimum of 6++) for all units within 12", OR one unit within 24", so it is NOT a 24" bubble. And most of your army having a 5+ Invulnerable Save that can't suffer more than a -1 TOTAL regardless of how many of these you're up against, added to the fact that your Demon Princes and Greater Daemons can tear through Grey Knights in close combat with their higher Initiative, means that you most definitely are not wrecked, especially since the units you have with better Invulnerable saves generally have Armor saves that the Grey Knight shooting can't ignore, making the penalty to the Invulnerable save less significant. And don't forget that you have SUMMONING. Whatever the agreed pt total, your oponent may have to face up to double that amount of Daemons over the course of a game.
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: S5, Salvo 4/6, Range 36”, (still Force)
Psycannon: Range 36”
Dreadnought Weapons:
TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
If Psilencer goes S5, then Force needs to go. Otherwise there's no point in ever bringing T4/5 multi-wound units that aren't sporting 3+ or better saves.
Up'ing the range alone to 36" would make the current version much more flexible. Or else if you really must have 36"/S5, then giving it the likes of 'always wounds Daemons & Psykers on a 4+' would be a viable idea in place of the godly S5/Force.
You forget that the Grey Knights only get 3 Special Weapons in their entire Codex. Force is a power that has to be cast, and CAN be denied. And don't give me some spiel about the Grey Knight dice pool, because the Grey Knights are reliant on their powers for so much that they don't have many left for each individual power unless they just don't cast the others. If you have some multi-wound T4-5 model, then use your Warp Charges to deny that Force.
Remove the Rending rule from Psycannons. Otherwise, that 24" range is the only thing keeping it from being acomplete no-brainer like it was last codex. (and fix the actual Salvo rules via the BRB!)
The Psycannon has been the backbone of the Grey Knight Codex since Daemon Hunters. It is the only take-all-comers weapon in the entire Codex. It is the only gun capable of damaging anything T8+ or AV11+ at more than 9". Let that sink in. The Grey Knights' Incinerator is fine, the Psycannon needs to stay anti armor (For Soul Grinders among other things). The Grey Knights don't have other weapons to fall back on if you make these obsolete. As I told you before with your previous Psycannon argument, your changes would make it WORSE than the standard Storm Bolter that comes standard on the model.
Just stick to giving Dreads the option to by the Skyfire ability as an additional upgrade. Hydra Autocannons would frankly look incredibly silly on a Dread due to size issues!
Bill1138 wrote: HQs 125pts- Brother-Captain: same options and costs
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
- 5pts for a Force weapon + Mastery Lv. (including Telepathy access!) is a bit too cheap. 135-140 pts is still giving a 10-15pts discount to him on just the Psyker Lv. alone, while allowing the Pointy-Death stick for free essentially.
You're STILL charging Grey Knights for their Chapter Tactics. You are showing disproportional bias against the Grey Knights.
- Reduce his Zone of Banishment to 6" radius then. Keep in mind he's also a Lv2 Psyker as well, and comes guaranteed with the godly Sanctuary power.
Already addressed Zone of Banishment. Sanctuary is far from "godly" when compared to what the other Codexes have.
- Crowe is too cheap at only 125pts. While he's currently over-costed, 140-150pts would is likely where he really *should* be, as he is Lv2, is +1A over a regular Bro Champ, gets I6/ap2 + re-rolls saves in Challenges AND allows for the sheer amazaballs'ness of a double-Cleanser party Rhino! (trust me, getting to fire off 2x Cleansing Flame is pretty nasty, and is a fantastic counter to any Flying Circus list out there!)
Normally I'm paying 230pts + 185 pts to do the same with Ahriman in a Rhino squad, with a big risk thrown in there. GK's can do the same, but without the almost guaranteed Perils and for cheaper.
You know what else gets off a double Cleansing Flame from a Rhino? Combat Squaded Purifiers! Amazing, right? And they get a bunch more attacks when they finally disembark than Crowe would get too! And every Purifier that doesn't take a Special Weapon has AP2-3 ALL THE TIME, while Crowe has AP- outside of Challenges. The only possible reason to take Crowe is to be sure to have Cleansing Flame on a Gate of Infinity unit.
*Note: Add in the Chaplain as a playable option.
150pts base: Termie armour + Nemesis Crozius (cannot be exchanged - EVER!) + Storm Bolter + Lv1 w/Hammerhand, Banishment & Sanctuary powers.
Can upgrade Storm bolter to a Combi-Flamer/Melta/Plasma like the Libby.
- There's no reason this guy shouldn't allowed now that the perverbial cat's out of the bag with a fully fleshed out GK codex. Should have been in the last book too. Perhaps even cost him at 165pts base because the Zealot rule is amazaballs.
Bill1138 wrote: Troops
Strike Squads: Forget what they currently are. Make them for the Grey Knights what Scouts are for the Space Marines, (relatively) cheap shooty units with Infiltrate, and the ability to take Homers. Change their gear and other special rules appropriately.
No. You cannot simply ditch your iconic equipment just because you want cheap as chips squads. The only thing Strikes need to "fix" them is to give them the Scout USR.
Infiltrate is simply too powerful. Imagine a Tournament scenario where you're only allowed to deploy 1HQ + 2 Troops units. The GK player infiltrates their Strikes to within 12.1-13" from the enemy's two units and then win the roll for 1st turn. Thanks to the Nemesis Strikeforce rules, you bring down Termies + whatever else from your Deep Strike reserves, and land everything safely within prime murdering range thanks to your infiltrated Teley Homers.
BOOM! You wipe out everything your opponent has on the table. Game is effectively over in half a turn because of how powerful Infiltrate is in a Grey Knight army.
Again this tedious bias against the Grey Knights is wearying. You insist that they have to have all of the upgrades, regardless of how high it raises their price, yet refuse anything that improves their survivability, making them completely unplayable. Special Weapons already remove Nemesis Force Weapons from models. Grey Knights DON'T have to have Nemesis Weapons. There is no reason they can't have a unit that doesn't have them standard.
And stop with the deliberatley misleading terminology. Infiltrate can never be within 12" of an opponent. This "1/13 inch" nonsense needs to stop. And you assume the Grey Knights get the first turn. If they drop a Strike Squad where you said and don't get first turn, that unit will be turned into so much red paste, so it would be extremely reckless for the Grey Knights to attempt. And if the opponent isn't a complete noob, he should be able to deploy his forces where the Grey Knights can't Infiltrate or Deep Strike in such a vulnerable location.
Scout still lets Strikes function much like their background, but it keeps the alpha strike from instantly breaking the game, as your reserves cannot come down risk-free within your opponent's deployment zone before they can potentially even get a chance to react.
As I've said multiple times, Scout moves are useless for the Grey Knights for the purposes of getting the Terminators reliably to somewhere they couldn't run to just as quickly. Scout is not a solution. Turning the Strike Squads into a Scout unit with Infiltrate does solve the problem, and is no more powerful than what the rest of the Space Marine chapters are capable of.
As for Termies:
1. Make them 35pts/model base
2. Allow a 2nd special weapon upgrade for any unit over 5 models. (ie: 6 - 10 strong units can double up)
*Note: I'd make this latter change applicable to every single Termie unit, as right now, non-GK Termies are overall purely 'meh', despite being such a fun unit.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
No Storm Shields, especially on Pallies! You have far too much ability to spam Santic and gain multiple copies of Sanctuary. Add in IG Priests and suddenly you've got ready access to re-rollable 2++ saves in combat.
If it's game breaking for Xenos armies to pull out re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, why should your Grey Knights, (or rather Imperials in general), suddenly get the same but can call it "balanced" and "fair"?
The only thing for Pallies would be to bring back the Holocaust power. (and no, not as a S6+/ap2 monstrosity either - unless it becomes similar to Typhus' Destroyer Hive and is a one-use only ability...)
Kitted out Paladins cost twice as much as Terminators, but do not have twice the survivability. They are not worth their points. Improving their Invulnerable Saves (note I'm not saying to do it for free, my suggestion would increase their cost in exchange for the survivability) would fix this. And as always, you put way, WAY too much emphasis on Psychic powers. Paladins don't have access to Sanctuary. The only way they'd get that is from a Brother Captain, or Librarian, and both are only chances to get it unless you take Stern. But by the time you've done this the unit is so expensive that it most definitely is not overpowered for the cost, especially since the game is full of Super Heavy units now. A kitted out Squad of Paladins with my proposed Storm Shields and Stern would cost more than a Baneblade. Take that into account when you're making your arguments.
Just give the Dread the ability to buy the Skyfire ability on twin-linked autocannons. Hydra cannons would frankly look hilariously stupid on a Dread!
***Purifyers: Can only take 1 special weapon at 5 men. Get the second slot at full 10 men like all the other PA squads bar the Purgators.
There is no reason to make that change.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
Heavy Incinerator should easily be +20pts.
Heavy Incinerator is 20pts on the Dreadknight, which has much better mobility and survivability than a Razorback. Having the weapon cost as much for the Razorback would be just stupid, and doesn't fit with how weapons are priced. Special Weapons cost more for Terminators than they do for PAGK for similar reasons.
*Note: Add in the option for Grey Knights to take Land Speeders.
High tech, ancient equipment? Definitely fits the GK's image. Fun option would be to add Relic Plating as an additional upgrade! You don't really want to be giving out Psychic Pilot as the army already spams enough WC's, but for 3-5pts/model, you effectively give the Speeders the same benefit of being a Lv1 vs. any powers targeting them.
As I've said (apparently to the wall), The Grey Knights need their units FIXED, not new units tacked on top of unfieldable ones.
Oh, and add Relic Plating to the GK vehicle upgrades in the Armoury itself
I could go for Relic Plating options being added for vehicles. I am surprised at who the suggestion came from though.
Bill1138 wrote: Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
NO! You cannot dump what makes a Grey Knight a Grey Knight simply because you don't like eating the cost of replacing with specials!
A Grey Knight is what he is because his Primarch is the Emeror, not because he swings a sword. Designated shooting units shouldn't have to pay for a weapon they are never going to use. Other Codexes don't have to put up with this nonsense.
Missile launchers equally make no sense. If you're 'fixing' the range of the other specials and/or perhaps dropping the cost slightly of the Psycannon (and assuming Salvo gets fixed in the BRB), then you've got enough tools without shoehorning in the stuff regular Marines get.
My suggestion involved Salvo staying as it is, and this suggestion was in light of that. You saying it is wrong because you jumped to a conclusion I didn't isn't sensible. When you say something doesn't make sense, what is your basis of comparison? Missile Launchers would finally give the Grey Knights a 48" shooting weapon that has an optional upgrade for Skyfire on an infantry unit. The addition of a Missile Launcher with Flak missiles alone would make Purgation Squads worth taking.
Make the Dreadknight no quite so much of a no-brainer auto-take, and dial back Purifyers to their assault specialist role instead of being "Super-Everything!" and suddenly Purgators find a solid role.
Your suggestion is (self censored) everyone else to make the Purgators look better by comparison really is not sensible and is contrary to the goal of fleshing out the Codex. Your goal seems to be to cut down the parts that stand out instead of filling in the low bits.
Adding a Storm Shield as an option to the Dreadknight is not "fixing" or "balancing" anything. Rather, it's just breaking the freaking game! You have Sanctuary on this guy. He's already viewed as undercosted and hailed as one of the best MC's in the game. Now you want him running around with a near guaranteed 2++ save to top it off?!
(hint: this is why people will call you out - this idea is equivalent to me trying say that I should be able to pick my Gifts & Psy Powers on my LoC, because... "reasons")
I don't know where you get your information, but the Dreadknight dies easily, and is in no way under-costed. And my proposed increase to survivability would limit his potential ranged weapons to 1, instead of 2. Currently, any close-combat Greater Daemon or Daemon Prince can kill a Dreadknight without much effort with a Initiative of 5 or higher, when Dreadknights are supposed to be good at slaying Greater Daemons in close combat. And 30 points for Storm Shield does increase the cost of the Dreadknight.
You really need to see to that faulty notion that anything that works is "over powered".
Bill1138 wrote: My reasoning: In the current version of Warhammer 40k, “Jack of all Trades, Master of none” doesn’t work, so units need to be more specialized.
Strike Squads are slimmed down to essentially being Scouts.
Purgation Squads are actually able to fill the role of Devastators.
Dreadnoughts serve the same role for the GK as Hydras serve in the AM.
HQ prices are balanced so the Librarian won’t be the only choice taken in most games.
Paladins have survivability to better balance their Opportunity costs.
Thus, every unit is unique, and has a special role, making every unit in the Codex viable for competitive play without certain units being “handicaps”. As I said at the beginning, it’s not about making the Grey Knights better than other codexes. Ideally, every Codex would be fixed to have good internal balance, with unique flavors to the units of each. The Codexes can’t be balanced with each other, if they don’t each have their own internal balance.
- You can't remove the defining feature of Marines in general. Sorry, but if you really want an entire army of specialists, then don't play Marines!
I already have Grey Knights, I used to field a great variety of them, using each for a specialized role. The New Codex broke this, and stripped all of the character from the units. Telling me to not play them is just trolling, because I can't afford to start a new army. You are being the opposite of helpful.
- So, give Strike Squad the Scout USR. Don't make them something they're not - they're still Grey Knights.
I told you why that wouldn't help, multiple times.
- Purgations would suit their role perfectly well by fixing the Dreadknight & dialing back the number of weapons Purifyers get to carry.
You don't fix a unit by castrating others. You wouldn't want a doctor to try to mend your broken arm by cutting off your leg, yet that's your suggestion for the Grey Knights.
- Dreads don't need a gun that's twice their physical size though - just allow them to buy Skyfire on their dual twin-autocannons.
If you'd payed attention, that was one of my suggestions.
- HQ's might need a very slight reduction on the whole, but the Libby could also equally do with a very slight pts increase
- Paladins are already survivable. What we don't need is yet another 2++ re-rolled Deathstar!!
Storm Shields are 3++, My suggested price for them was fair to what Vanilla Marines pay. Sanctuary is a Psychic power not directly available to Paladins, and geared out with Storm Shields, with a HQ for Sanctuary makes them about as expensive as a Baneblade, so they are appropriately priced. Making it re-rollable isn't available to the Grey Knights. And other Codexes having a powerful units isn't an argument against this Codex having any, especially since you CLAIM to want to balance the Codeses.
I'm sorry, but there are certainly a good number of suggestions here that do indeed look like they're simply about making Grey Knights better than everyone else...
And yes, it is definitely possible to make the codices both internally well balanaced, while at the same time making them fairly well balanced externally against the other books!
Just blindly trying to balance each book internally and outright ignoring how "fixes" would interact with the wider game is exactly how you go about creating the types of monstrosities such as 5th ed Grey Knights and 7th ed Daemons of Chaos.
External Balance can be achieved after Internal Balance. It is pointless to try to balance a codex with another codex that has both drastically over-priced units and other that are over-powered. There is no standard. What needs done is for each Codex to be looked at on its own, fixed, and rounded out, THEN compared to the other Codexes, and the total power scaled up or down. And really this all needs to be done simultaniously, rather than trying to cope with the other broken stuff already in the game. That (Making Codexes as responses to broken things already in the game) is why 6th edition 40k was such a mess.
I got to spend roughly 2 years of being forced to shelve my entire army because of such abysmal games design thanks to the last GK codex which auto-won vs. Daemons. Let's please not try and go back to those types of games.
I played against Daemons in 6th Edition and they won as many games against me as they lost, so if you always lost, you were doing something wrong. You should really stop letting your issues with past editions cloud your vision of what the current issues with the game are.
How many DPs can do 4 wounds to a t6 5++ model in one round? Maybe Black Mace:
(A)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4 means they need 4(3/2)(6/5)(3/2) attacks, or (54/5), or 11 attacks in a single round to kill a DK *on average*.
DK killing a DP?
(A)(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 1, or (1)(3/2)(6/5)(2/1) = 18/5, or a little more than 3 attacks, on average, to ID a Demon Prince (S10 -> T5).
So most DPs will struggle to significantly hurt a DK, with the best still very unlikely to 1-round them. But a DK will be very unlikely to *not* 1-round the DP.
His +1.5 inches is coming from the DS model bases.
The 12" comes from infiltrating at 18, then scouting 6". And that's for T1 deep strikes. T2 lets you move closer still.
You are fixated on making GK strike squads infiltration experts. We're all familiar with GK being more Space Marine than Space Marines in the same way Space Marines are more Space Marine than IG. But being a Space Marine is more than simply being better at what you do. Its about being better at all combat roles. Being better at only one thing isn't what being an SM is all about. ASM are still BS4. Devs are still WS4, and wear power armor. GKs are all Psykers, and all carry Force Weapons. It is integral to their fluff.
And 3++ on Termies might not sound huge, but it really, really is. Look at the other 2++ options in the game. Shadow field? Expensive and goes away after the first failure. Demons? Stacking several rules. Its supposed to be hard. Throwing up Sanctuary on GK pallies? Not that hard. Not free, but easier than most.
Bharring wrote: How many DPs can do 4 wounds to a t6 5++ model in one round? Maybe Black Mace:
(A)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4 means they need 4(3/2)(6/5)(3/2) attacks, or (54/5), or 11 attacks in a single round to kill a DK *on average*.
DK killing a DP?
(A)(1/2)(5/6)(2/3) = 1, or (1)(3/2)(6/5)(2/1) = 18/5, or a little more than 3 attacks, on average, to ID a Demon Prince (S10 -> T5).
So most DPs will struggle to significantly hurt a DK, with the best still very unlikely to 1-round them. But a DK will be very unlikely to *not* 1-round the DP.
I trust you're more clever than this. The Drop Pod is the means of arrival for the unit inside, AND it can provide reduced scatter for other units. And at AV12, no attacks lower than S6 can hurt it, while the Dreadknight can be wounded by massed S4 shooting (which is fairly standard across most codexes)
Wow! I am so sorry about that. Upon re-reading it is clear that you were talking about Daemon Princes while I was talking about Drop Pods.
His +1.5 inches is coming from the DS model bases.
The 12" comes from infiltrating at 18, then scouting 6". And that's for T1 deep strikes. T2 lets you move closer still.
Where does this "+1.5 inches" come from 626 was making references to 1/13th of an inch. As for Scout moves, arguing that something I suggested wouldn't work, because of adding a rule that I didn't suggest, is a logical fallacy.
You are fixated on making GK strike squads infiltration experts. We're all familiar with GK being more Space Marine than Space Marines in the same way Space Marines are more Space Marine than IG. But being a Space Marine is more than simply being better at what you do. Its about being better at all combat roles. Being better at only one thing isn't what being an SM is all about. ASM are still BS4. Devs are still WS4, and wear power armor. GKs are all Psykers, and all carry Force Weapons. It is integral to their fluff.
That is utter cow droppings. Space Marines have designated shooting units that don't have to be special at close combat, and they have designated close combat units that don't have to worry about shooting. And each are better at their role than any infantry Grey Knight unit is at either for the same points. Every unit in the Space Marines is not a Jack of all trades. They each Specialize. Not letting the Grey Knights specialize is why people keep complaining that the Grey Knights are one-note, and boring to play against.
Honestly, it's like a bunch of people standing around a drippy faucet, yet refusing to let anyone turn it off
And 3++ on Termies might not sound huge, but it really, really is. Look at the other 2++ options in the game. Shadow field? Expensive and goes away after the first failure. Demons? Stacking several rules. Its supposed to be hard. Throwing up Sanctuary on GK pallies? Not that hard. Not free, but easier than most.
Most armies have access to Divination. Divination has a power that allows you to re-roll ALL SAVES. Space Marine Terminators with a re-rollable 3++ is much more powerful than Sanctuary improving an invulnerable save to 2++ So people need to stop going on as if the Grey Knights would be getting something unprecedented and spectacular with Storm Shields when practically everyone else already has access to it.
Paladins as I suggested would cost 250pts for 5, and if we assume the Storm Shield replaces a weapon, you'd get 4 Storm Shields (40pts) and the Apothecary, Brotherhood Banner, Hammer, and 3 Halberds would bring the total to 351pts. But they don't have Sanctuary, so they'd still had a NON-rerollable 3++.
Guaranteed access to Sanctuary would require Brother Captain Stern, currently at 185pts, but I feel is worth closer to 150pts. So if we use my suggestion for Stern's price, we have a 6-man unit, totalling 13 Wounds, with 2+ all around, but 4 2++, 1, 3++, and one 4++ assuming Sanctuary goes off, and Feel No Pain. Their shooting totals to one Storm Bolter, and in close combat they have a couple attacks each. So this exclusively close combat unit with about an 11% chance of not saving any non-instant death wound, costs 501 points.
That is one highly survivable, exclusively close combat infantry unit consisting of only 6 models that costs as much as 2 Land Raiders, or almost as much as a Baneblade. Adding Draigo or for Gate of infinity, add another 245pts. Want re-rollable 2++ on those 4 guys (now only half the unit), that'll cost you a Librarian rolling on Divination, and at L3 (bringing the Librarian up to 135pts), you only have a 50% chance of getting it. The new total for this super unit that people are so scared of?
881 points. Even if you take a L3 Librarian with the DLD for Sactuary and Gate of Infinity instead of Draigo and Stern, and another L3 Librarian for the 50% chance to get Precognition, that still leaves your total at 746 points, still more than any fully upgraded Baneblade varient. Fielding that unit would be completely throwing the game away. People need to take a look at the facts before lashing out in fear and ignorance against other people's ideas.
1. Infiltrate allows for deployment within 12.1" of the enemy if you can block all LoS to them. In missions where both players are limited to how many units they can itially deploy, (especially common in Tournaments), this makes it utter game breaking on Strike Squads.
The game will effectively boil down to whether or not the Grey Knights go first... if they do, then with the NSF detachment, you've got the ability to likely completely cripple your opponent before they even get a chance to react in any way. (unless they're hiding all their stuff inside av13+ bunkers/vehicles)
That's broken as feth. That's really no different to the Warp Quake shenanigans of the last book that outright removed Daemons as a playable army.
Scout on the other hand gives the Grey Knight player an advantage in getting their forces into the thick of things right off the bat, but your opponent still has a chance to react, especially when going second, as the Knights will not be landing half an entire freaking army, 100% risk free, right in the midst of their deployment zone!
2. Grey Knights are defined by their equipment. Every Knight carries a storm bolter and Nemesis weapon, just as every Space Marine is equally defined by his Bolter. Specialists, such as heavy/special weapon troopers or assault specialists will trade out their gear, but they're always the exception rather than the rule. A Devastator Squad for example doesn't get to forfeit their mostly useless Bolters to make the squad cheaper and more dedicated to their intended role.
Grey Knights likewise should not get special treatment just because. You keep them 'cheaper' by not further upgrading the Nemesis weapons across the rest of the squad.
Your problem is you keep comparing Grey Knights to standard Space Marines. They are not typical Marines!
As for the 'specialisation' of Grey Knights... ideally it should be:
- Strikes = Vanguard units capable of early land grabs and/or outflanking moves. Hence, give them Scout.
- Terminators = Generalist heavy combat unit.
- Purifyers = Close combat specialists. Remove the added special weapon slots as this is treading all over the toes of Purgators atm!
- Purgators = Dedicated special weapons squad. The fun part is, unlike their closest equivalent, the Devastators, these guys are fully capable of fighting off the types of things that normally like to nobble assault-ineffective support units!
- Paladins = Elite generalist unit able to tackle even the toughest of foes and tank damage for IC's.
3. Storm Shields.
I'm really sorry, but dismissing Psychic powers as being a non-factor in determining whether or not it's perfectly balanced to give GK's instant 3++ which can be easily buffed for almost no effort is frankly insulting...
Librarians are very cheap, and a single one per army can take 4 rolls on Santic. That almost guarantees that model will land Sanctuary. Add an IG Priest as an ally, (and can be done relatively cheaply), and you now have a Deathstar unit that no one wants to put up with.
Sure you sinking upwards of 600-700pts into said unit. Keep in mind that:
The Daemon version requires the casting of a Psychic power, (Forewarning or Cursed Earth), plus the application of the Grimoire of True Names, (which can backfire and inflict -1 save AND can never apply it's bonus to the model carrying it, leaving him rather vulnerable), plus pretty much requires Fateweaver to ensure the Grimoire doesn't backfire, and finally, the 2++ can only be re-rolled by Daemons of Tzeentch! (who themselves are not anywhere near the utter beatstick the GK version would be!)
It doesn't mean that the Daemon re-rolled 2++ Deathstar should exist, but honestly, the Daemon player is sinking well beyond 800pts into the thing, (more like 1100pts on average!), and it's not so much a heinously broken beatstick so much as it is just an all but impossible to kill tarpit of 'uber Doooooooom! (note: the "Screamerstar" can't even shoot that much anymore)
The Grey Knight version on the other hand? Nothing in the game would stand up to a properly built GK Deathstar rocking a near unit-wide re-rolled 2++ save, except praying to get lucky and rolling lots of 6's with Str.D attacks.
Not to mention, the GK version can also rock FnP in addition to the re-rolled 2++! (not even Daemons or Eldar get quite THAT obnoxious!)
Precognition btw only ever effects the Psyker casting it - it cannot be applied unit wide. The Priest on the other hand is a slightly better than 50/50 shot at being able to get off unit-wide re-rolled saves in assaults. Which is where this monstrosity wants to be. (and Land Raider Crusaders/DS'ing off of Homers exist to help them out)
Besides, Storm Shields is one of the few 'leg ups' that other Marines have over Grey Knights and keep a nice amount of distinction going between them. Sure grav guns are stupid things, (especially Dev Cents), but we don't go about fixing the Vanilla Marines Deathstar issues by simply giving Grey Knights a better one. (which is the only thing we'd end up with if GK's can suddenly give their hardest unit full-on access to Storm Shields!)
Bill1138 wrote: Here's my version 3.0 idea for improving internal balance. Remember that external balance would involve fixing the problems other Codexes have, not leaving holes in this one.
Note: The Aegis, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), and 1 Mastery Level of Psyker are essentially the Grey Knights' Chapter Tactics, and the other Space Marine chapters don't have to pay for their Chapter Tactics.
Sounds generally good, though I would say that paying for ML1 is actually fairly reasonable- literally no other army in the game gets that kind of capability for free.
Bill1138 wrote: Change the Primaris Power for Sanctic to a Warp Charge 1 Blessing that targets the Psyker’s unit and grants +1 Strength to shooting attacks.
Psybolt ammunition being "+1Str" was dumb in the 5th edition book- it simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever that psychic "mind"bullets would make the shots more deadly against everything. Moreover, the current Primaris is fine as a shooting buff- you're reducing the saves of a unit whose only save is generally an invuln.
Bill1138 wrote: Instead of Codex-wide Banishment, give Stern's Zone of Banishment to the HQs Purifiers, and Paladins.
.....I do not think you really understand what that does from a high-level view of game balance.
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons (& Terminator Special Weapons)
Psilencer: S5, Salvo 4/6, Range 36”, (still Force)
Psycannon: Range 36”
While I am still rather fond of the Psilencer buff that I put together, it's also worth noting that if Salvo mechanics are changed, to, say be "reduce RoF when moving, keep range", then Psilencers don't really need much of a range buff. Psycannons, as mentioned by another poster shouldn't be 36" and Rending- you should get one or the other.
Of course, I am of the opinion that the current Psycannon mechanics suck and need to be retooled entirely, but hey, can't have everything I suppose.
Bill1138 wrote: Dreadnought Weapons:
TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
The latter is an easier fix; I would even go so far as to do a Mortis-dread style thing where GK Dreads can take an upgrade that allows them to choose to have Skyfire- currently, for example, Mortis dreads get Skyfire when they stand still... but if they stand still and want to shoot at gropo dudes, then they're SOL since they must gain Skyfire when standing still.
I'd also like to put forth the further consideration that GK Dreads should get the fancy anti-tarpit choppy bit from Forgeworld's GK Dread, the "Doomglaive".
Bill1138 wrote: Troops
Strike Squads: Forget what they currently are. Make them for the Grey Knights what Scouts are for the Space Marines, (relatively) cheap shooty units with Infiltrate, and the ability to take Homers. Change their gear and other special rules appropriately.
No.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
You already went over the Dread; please do not be redundant. Paladins starting as a 3-man squad, IMO, is fine. Paladins getting Stormshields, is not.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
I don't see much issue with this. I'd like to throw in that GK vehicles in general should be able to swap certain weapons for Psilencers, Psycannons, or Incinerators; as an example, it'd be nice to drop Psycannons/Psilencers into the HB mount on a Land Raider.
Bill1138 wrote: Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
RE Purgation Squads: No. If they need a dedicated anti-armor weapon, then give them a super-holy-blessed Multi-Melta, as that's more thematically appropriate. Also, maybe give them a unique psychic power that makes them Relentless.
RE Dreadknights: No.
RE LR Redeemers: simpler solution; allow it to swap the Flamestorms for Heavy Incinerators, at an appropriate cost.
Bill1138 wrote: Thus, every unit is unique, and has a special role, making every unit in the Codex viable for competitive play without certain units being “handicaps”. As I said at the beginning, it’s not about making the Grey Knights better than other codexes. Ideally, every Codex would be fixed to have good internal balance, with unique flavors to the units of each. The Codexes can’t be balanced with each other, if they don’t each have their own internal balance.
I don't think you understand the implications and ripple effects that most of your ideas have.
Experiment 626 wrote: No Storm Shields, especially on Pallies! You have far too much ability to spam Santic and gain multiple copies of Sanctuary. Add in IG Priests and suddenly you've got ready access to re-rollable 2++ saves in combat.
If it's game breaking for Xenos armies to pull out re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, why should your Grey Knights, (or rather Imperials in general), suddenly get the same but can call it "balanced" and "fair"?
The only thing for Pallies would be to bring back the Holocaust power. (and no, not as a S6+/ap2 monstrosity either - unless it becomes similar to Typhus' Destroyer Hive and is a one-use only ability...)
In regards to Sanctuary and IG Priests, I'd say that the following should be done:
Sanctuary: may not stack with other effects that provide +1 to a model's invulnerable save; more-or-less, Paladins can now get up to a 4++ from that, which isn't too shabby. I do agree that Paladins don't need Stormshields either.
IG Priests: disallow re-rolling of saves; SoB Priests should allow a re-roll of the SoB-only "Shield of Faith" save, or provide some kind of little bonus to that. Otherwise, however, no more 2++ re-rollable allowed for anyone, because its bs and stupid.
WRT to Holocaust, I'd make it a melee-focused Nova power; just enough range to hit stuff in combat, but also hit hard- I'm thinking around S6, though only AP-; it's not like Daemons have armor.
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
Heavy Incinerator should easily be +20pts.
I find that to be quite reasonable for the Razorback; if we allow a GK 'Deemer to swap its Flamestorms for Heavy Incinerators, I would put it at a slight discount- Land Raiders are already overpriced, and it's effectively trading AP3 for AP4/Soul Blaze... and Soul Blaze isn't super impressive in the first place anyway.
Experiment 626 wrote: *Note: Add in the option for Grey Knights to take Land Speeders.
High tech, ancient equipment? Definitely fits the GK's image. Fun option would be to add Relic Plating as an additional upgrade! You don't really want to be giving out Psychic Pilot as the army already spams enough WC's, but for 3-5pts/model, you effectively give the Speeders the same benefit of being a Lv1 vs. any powers targeting them.
Oh, and add Relic Plating to the GK vehicle upgrades in the Armoury itself
Relic Plating is...? I don't actually recall offhand, that's why I ask.
Insofar as GKs with Land Speeders... I dunno. A lot of the point of GKs is that they heavily emphasize the Knights themselves, and every vehicle they currently have pretty much is there to deliver Knights to places they can be useful. Maybe giving some more GK-specific options for GK vehicles, particularly Land Raiders, and perhaps even a GK-specific Land Raider variant?
Bill1138 wrote: Purgation Squads: Lose all of the Close Combat stuff (Including Hammerhand), and Night Vision in exchange for the Perfect Timing Psychic power from Divination. Also give them Missile Launchers and Flak Missiles as optional upgrades.
Nemesis Dreadknight: Add a Storm Shield option to the second bullet point for 30pts.
270- Land Raider Redeemer, give the Flamestorm Cannon Torrent.
NO! You cannot dump what makes a Grey Knight a Grey Knight simply because you don't like eating the cost of replacing with specials!
Missile launchers equally make no sense. If you're 'fixing' the range of the other specials and/or perhaps dropping the cost slightly of the Psycannon (and assuming Salvo gets fixed in the BRB), then you've got enough tools without shoehorning in the stuff regular Marines get.
Make the Dreadknight no quite so much of a no-brainer auto-take, and dial back Purifyers to their assault specialist role instead of being "Super-Everything!" and suddenly Purgators find a solid role.
What do you think of a "blessed MM"? It's something that's rather lacking in the GK book- dedicated anti-armor guns. It's also the sort of thing that seems like it fits with all the other short-ranged guns the GKs get, as well as the whole "gonna get purged" theme. Also emphasizes the close/mid range shooting of GKs, since that seems to be one of the strongpoints of the army on the table.
I'd also like to throw in the "make Purifiers more assault focused" is a good idea.
Aside: Purifiers does not have a "y" in it. Are you a non-native English speaker? I ask because you consistently misspell "Purifiers". Just curious, you see.
Experiment 626 wrote: - You can't remove the defining feature of Marines in general. Sorry, but if you really want an entire army of specialists, then don't play Marines!
I just want to single this out, because "army of generalists" for Marines, in practice, correlates to "army of overpriced generalists". It's moved from "feature" to "flaw", and it mostly comes down to the fact that Marines are terrible generalists. They pay for equipment that they rarely use, and then people point this out, at which point non-Marine players (oftentimes comparing to Xeno armies) will say "but you get all this stuff included, and my army doesn't get half of that at all, and the other half I have to pay for!"
Unfortunately, the reality is that substantial amounts of the equipment Marines pay for is only rarely used.
However, IMO the solution is not "remove it", but "heavily discount it". Purgation squads shouldn't pay as much for Force Weapons and grenades because they aren't going to want to be in a position to use them- but they should still keep those things and still pay for them. Similarly, bog-standard vanilla Tactical Marines should pay very little for their grenades and sidearm, because it's unlikely that they'll actually get the chance to use those things.
Bill1138 wrote: Most armies have access to Divination. Divination has a power that allows you to re-roll ALL SAVES. Space Marine Terminators with a re-rollable 3++ is much more powerful than Sanctuary improving an invulnerable save to 2++ So people need to stop going on as if the Grey Knights would be getting something unprecedented and spectacular with Storm Shields when practically everyone else already has access to it.
Now what happens when you combo that Divination power and Sanctuary and Storm Shield Paladins?
Bill1138 wrote: Paladins as I suggested would cost 250pts for 5, and if we assume the Storm Shield replaces a weapon, you'd get 4 Storm Shields (40pts) and the Apothecary, Brotherhood Banner, Hammer, and 3 Halberds would bring the total to 351pts. But they don't have Sanctuary, so they'd still had a NON-rerollable 3++.
Guaranteed access to Sanctuary would require Brother Captain Stern, currently at 185pts, but I feel is worth closer to 150pts. So if we use my suggestion for Stern's price, we have a 6-man unit, totalling 13 Wounds, with 2+ all around, but 4 2++, 1, 3++, and one 4++ assuming Sanctuary goes off, and Feel No Pain. Their shooting totals to one Storm Bolter, and in close combat they have a couple attacks each. So this exclusively close combat unit with about an 11% chance of not saving any non-instant death wound, costs 501 points.
That is one highly survivable, exclusively close combat infantry unit consisting of only 6 models that costs as much as 2 Land Raiders, or almost as much as a Baneblade. Adding Draigo or for Gate of infinity, add another 245pts. Want re-rollable 2++ on those 4 guys (now only half the unit), that'll cost you a Librarian rolling on Divination, and at L3 (bringing the Librarian up to 135pts), you only have a 50% chance of getting it. The new total for this super unit that people are so scared of?
881 points. Even if you take a L3 Librarian with the DLD for Sactuary and Gate of Infinity instead of Draigo and Stern, and another L3 Librarian for the 50% chance to get Precognition, that still leaves your total at 746 points, still more than any fully upgraded Baneblade varient. Fielding that unit would be completely throwing the game away. People need to take a look at the facts before lashing out in fear and ignorance against other people's ideas.
This "super unit" is also nearly unkillable. Skip Draigo, take Stern and the 5-man squad, and throw them in a Stormraven. Use a normal CAD, take a Skyshield pad, and start on the board.
And your 'Raven gets an invuln while it sits there.
Bill1138 wrote: Elite
150pts- Paladin Squad of 3, with additional Paladins costing 50pts each, and add optional Storm Shields for 10pts each.
100pts Dreadnought: TL Autocannon option: Make it a Hydra Autocannon, or add a Skyfire Upgrade to the existing Autocannon.
You already went over the Dread; please do not be redundant. Paladins starting as a 3-man squad, IMO, is fine. Paladins getting Stormshields, is not.
Actually, Paladins already start as 3 man units now. The only suggested change was the obnoxious Storm Shields, which will combo too perfectly within the army to create an even nastier Deathstar than the ones we currently have to put up with...
Bill1138 wrote: Fast
Razorback, exchange the TL Heavy Flamer option for a TL Incinerator (5pts), or a Heavy Incinerator (15pts).
I don't see much issue with this. I'd like to throw in that GK vehicles in general should be able to swap certain weapons for Psilencers, Psycannons, or Incinerators; as an example, it'd be nice to drop Psycannons/Psilencers into the HB mount on a Land Raider.
This would be logical, but will never happen due the fact I highly doubt GW is going to produce yet another Land Raider kit, as we already have 3 as it is! (and honestly, Chaos Marines desperately need their Land Raider looked after before Loyalists get yet another freaking variant! )
Experiment 626 wrote: No Storm Shields, especially on Pallies! You have far too much ability to spam Santic and gain multiple copies of Sanctuary. Add in IG Priests and suddenly you've got ready access to re-rollable 2++ saves in combat.
If it's game breaking for Xenos armies to pull out re-rolled 2++ shenanigans, why should your Grey Knights, (or rather Imperials in general), suddenly get the same but can call it "balanced" and "fair"?
The only thing for Pallies would be to bring back the Holocaust power. (and no, not as a S6+/ap2 monstrosity either - unless it becomes similar to Typhus' Destroyer Hive and is a one-use only ability...)
In regards to Sanctuary and IG Priests, I'd say that the following should be done:
Sanctuary: may not stack with other effects that provide +1 to a model's invulnerable save; more-or-less, Paladins can now get up to a 4++ from that, which isn't too shabby. I do agree that Paladins don't need Stormshields either.
IG Priests: disallow re-rolling of saves; SoB Priests should allow a re-roll of the SoB-only "Shield of Faith" save, or provide some kind of little bonus to that. Otherwise, however, no more 2++ re-rollable allowed for anyone, because its bs and stupid.
WRT to Holocaust, I'd make it a melee-focused Nova power; just enough range to hit stuff in combat, but also hit hard- I'm thinking around S6, though only AP-; it's not like Daemons have armor.
Honestly, there's nothing really wrong with Sanctuary. It's only Grey Knights who can use it with relative 'safety'. Everyone else is running a decent risk of Perils if you're aiming to cast it, as you'll likely use 3 dice to ensure you get it off. (and thus make it much harder to dispel)
Even if an Imperial player decides to build the currently atrocious Centstar, they're typically forking out for a Lv3 GK Libby w/Book + min sized GK squad of whatever flavour, AND likely an additional Libby such as Tiggy to try and ensure Invis to make it really, really dumb.
The nightmare is of course the idea of simply giving GK's the ability to take 3++ within their own book. (and on their already most survivable unit?! yeah, I'm calling bs here!)
If the Marine player then goes for the addition of an IG Priest, that's typically yet another 300'ish pts all told. For a single unit that will never, ever die, yet will not earn anywhere near it's pts back vs. MSU spam.
The Priest's own re-roll saves ability isn't a problem either... except when he's exploited in a Deathstar build.
Keep in mind too, the Centstar, as horrific to face as it is, doesn't get FnP either. The OP's "suggestion" would allow for the chance to build a re-rolled 2++ unit that also gets an additional 5+++ save should they ever fail their re-rolled 2+ invuln, unless you can spam S8+ at them!
Experiment 626 wrote: *Note: Add in the option for Grey Knights to take Land Speeders.
High tech, ancient equipment? Definitely fits the GK's image. Fun option would be to add Relic Plating as an additional upgrade! You don't really want to be giving out Psychic Pilot as the army already spams enough WC's, but for 3-5pts/model, you effectively give the Speeders the same benefit of being a Lv1 vs. any powers targeting them.
Oh, and add Relic Plating to the GK vehicle upgrades in the Armoury itself
Relic Plating is...? I don't actually recall offhand, that's why I ask.
Relic Plating is from the IG codex. (I refuse to call them Mila-whatever!) For them it's less than 5pts to give a vehicle the Adamantium Will special rule. For GK's, it would probably be fair to give it to them at +5pts for basic vehicles, and likely +10-15pts for Land Raiders. (most powers that can slag vehicles are typically meant as heavy armour killers, hence why IMHO, things like Land Raiders should pay a slightly inflated cost to gain protection from their hard counter.)
Whiskey144 wrote: Insofar as GKs with Land Speeders... I dunno. A lot of the point of GKs is that they heavily emphasize the Knights themselves, and every vehicle they currently have pretty much is there to deliver Knights to places they can be useful. Maybe giving some more GK-specific options for GK vehicles, particularly Land Raiders, and perhaps even a GK-specific Land Raider variant?
I suggested Speeders as;
a) it fits with the more aggressive & mobile style of warfare that GK's are known for.
b) it's ancient tech which is somewhat rare even amongst basic Chapters. Again, it fits their image of being the best equipped for GK's to get access to the oldest & more advanced tech within the Space Marine arsenal.
And also because, we're never going to see Jetbikes... (sadly!)
It also gives the GK's some added anti-vehicle capability without simply throwing a more mundane option like Missile launchers or Lascannons at them. Plus Speeders are still light enough to not come off as obnoxious, and honestly, I think the image of a flight of Speeders acting as swift escorts to the heavier Storm Ravens is f****** awesome!
What do you think of a "blessed MM"? It's something that's rather lacking in the GK book- dedicated anti-armor guns. It's also the sort of thing that seems like it fits with all the other short-ranged guns the GKs get, as well as the whole "gonna get purged" theme. Also emphasizes the close/mid range shooting of GKs, since that seems to be one of the strongpoints of the army on the table.
I'd also like to throw in the "make Purifiers more assault focused" is a good idea.
Aside: Purifiers does not have a "y" in it. Are you a non-native English speaker? I ask because you consistently misspell "Purifiers". Just curious, you see.
I think a 'blessed' Melta type weaponry would be more suited to the Sisters, as mass flamers/meltas is pretty much their big thing...
The real fix for GK anti-tank in general is for GW to get off their arse and re-do the freaking Razorback kit to include it's added turret options dammit! (and to re-do the basic Dreadnought kit as well to include the twin-autos + heavy flamer arms...)
The options are there to supplement the likes of 'Ceptors w/Psycannons or bunkered backfield Dreads and such, it's just far too much hassle to get the required bitz to convert everything!
Re: Purifiers:
Yes, I'm a native speaker. I was simply trying to reply while also acting as a living, breathing 'Breath of Fire' walkthrough for my dad, who's determined to power level his quest better than mine.
Whiskey144 wrote: I just want to single this out, because "army of generalists" for Marines, in practice, correlates to "army of overpriced generalists". It's moved from "feature" to "flaw", and it mostly comes down to the fact that Marines are terrible generalists. They pay for equipment that they rarely use, and then people point this out, at which point non-Marine players (oftentimes comparing to Xeno armies) will say "but you get all this stuff included, and my army doesn't get half of that at all, and the other half I have to pay for!"
Unfortunately, the reality is that substantial amounts of the equipment Marines pay for is only rarely used.
However, IMO the solution is not "remove it", but "heavily discount it". Purgation squads shouldn't pay as much for Force Weapons and grenades because they aren't going to want to be in a position to use them- but they should still keep those things and still pay for them. Similarly, bog-standard vanilla Tactical Marines should pay very little for their grenades and sidearm, because it's unlikely that they'll actually get the chance to use those things.
I think most people would agree that Marines in general are likely a point or two at most overcosted. Chaos Marines for example are only 13pts base. If Tacs were equal to that, while Chaos Marines gain something such as say 'Stubborn in close combat' to equal the likes of ATSKNF, (and Legion/Renegade Tactics vs. Chapter Tactics), then GK's could likely get away with their basic grunt being 18pts a pop.
The big advantage of Marines is that while you pay for the opportunity costs, that option is always there if/when it's needed. Occasionally that almost never fired Bolt pistol is golden when you end up facing down a horde of Orks... instead of simply sitting back and accepting that your squad will likely die once the Orks get their turn, Marines can move up, snap off a few shots, and then follow it up with a charge that will help rob the Orks of their biggest advantage.
Yes it happens only occasionally, but it's sheer brilliance when those opportunity costs do come into play.
Bill1138 wrote: Most armies have access to Divination. Divination has a power that allows you to re-roll ALL SAVES. Space Marine Terminators with a re-rollable 3++ is much more powerful than Sanctuary improving an invulnerable save to 2++ So people need to stop going on as if the Grey Knights would be getting something unprecedented and spectacular with Storm Shields when practically everyone else already has access to it.
Now what happens when you combo that Divination power and Sanctuary and Storm Shield Paladins?
Well, keep in mind that, Precog only ever effects the caster - never a whole unit. (hence why you'd need the IG Priest to build to the Super Deathstar)
Secondly, do you really want to know what happens when a Boomstick LoC with +1W & IWNDANDFnP 4+ gets to cast Precog on itself?! I won't use that rank b******* ever again honestly... solo-ing almost an entire army of CSM's by himself while hilarious, made me die a little on the inside at just how stupid that game got.
And he'd be tame compared to the GK version of re-rolled 2++ unit, which is saying something!
Experiment 626 wrote: Actually, Paladins already start as 3 man units now. The only suggested change was the obnoxious Storm Shields, which will combo too perfectly within the army to create an even nastier Deathstar than the ones we currently have to put up with...
Huh, I even looked over the current book when going through this thread, and didn't notice that.
Derp.
Experiment 626 wrote: This would be logical, but will never happen due the fact I highly doubt GW is going to produce yet another Land Raider kit, as we already have 3 as it is! (and honestly, Chaos Marines desperately need their Land Raider looked after before Loyalists get yet another freaking variant! )
Oh I agree that Traitor Marines need some cool Heresy-era-only LR variants as well as some variants that are Traitor-specific and came into being after the Heresy.
Also, technically speaking, the current Loyalist Land Raider kit is actually "two" kits, where one is the Godhammer pattern and the other is a combination Crusader/Redeemer. Used to be, IIRC, that all three variants could be built from the same kit, but for some reason GeeDubs has changed it I guess.
Derp on their part for doing so.
Experiment 626 wrote: Honestly, there's nothing really wrong with Sanctuary. It's only Grey Knights who can use it with relative 'safety'. Everyone else is running a decent risk of Perils if you're aiming to cast it, as you'll likely use 3 dice to ensure you get it off. (and thus make it much harder to dispel)
Even if an Imperial player decides to build the currently atrocious Centstar, they're typically forking out for a Lv3 GK Libby w/Book + min sized GK squad of whatever flavour, AND likely an additional Libby such as Tiggy to try and ensure Invis to make it really, really dumb.
The nightmare is of course the idea of simply giving GK's the ability to take 3++ within their own book. (and on their already most survivable unit?! yeah, I'm calling bs here!)
I'd agree that Sanctuary isn't- on the surface- especially broken, but I don't think it should be able to stack, or push an invuln to 2++; 2++ invulnerable saves tend to be rare, expensive, and have some sort of limitation; for example the vanilla SM relic armor "Armor of Indomitus" can get a once-per-game 2++, the DE Shadowfield is a 2++ but if you fail the save then it's 'destroyed' and cannot be used for the rest of the game (though admittedly with DE T3 the guy carrying a Shadowfield is probably dead if he fails his save).
I don't especially like the idea of, for example, repeatedly casting Sanctuary on something to push it from say, a 6++/5++ to a 2++. I also do not particularly like the idea of Hammernators with a 2++; being 2+/3++ is, IMO quite nicely durable already.
Experiment 626 wrote: If the Marine player then goes for the addition of an IG Priest, that's typically yet another 300'ish pts all told. For a single unit that will never, ever die, yet will not earn anywhere near it's pts back vs. MSU spam.
The Priest's own re-roll saves ability isn't a problem either... except when he's exploited in a Deathstar build.
Keep in mind too, the Centstar, as horrific to face as it is, doesn't get FnP either. The OP's "suggestion" would allow for the chance to build a re-rolled 2++ unit that also gets an additional 5+++ save should they ever fail their re-rolled 2+ invuln, unless you can spam S8+ at them!
While that's true, there's always Unbound. Oh, I give up "Objective Secured", but have a murderlicious, unkillable, somewhat-affordable deathstar? Well, that sounds promising...
/spasming in horror
Experiment 626 wrote: Relic Plating is from the IG codex. (I refuse to call them Mila-whatever!) For them it's less than 5pts to give a vehicle the Adamantium Will special rule. For GK's, it would probably be fair to give it to them at +5pts for basic vehicles, and likely +10-15pts for Land Raiders. (most powers that can slag vehicles are typically meant as heavy armour killers, hence why IMHO, things like Land Raiders should pay a slightly inflated cost to gain protection from their hard counter.)
Ah, I'd forgotten that detail. Also, I agree- "Astra Militarum" is pants-on-head-stupid. They're the Imperial Guard, and always will be. Also, the new Stormtrooper fluff about them all being the orphaned sons of nobles is... also stupid.
But I rather dig the idea of Adamantium Will on all the GK vehicles too.
Experiment 626 wrote: I suggested Speeders as;
a) it fits with the more aggressive & mobile style of warfare that GK's are known for.
b) it's ancient tech which is somewhat rare even amongst basic Chapters. Again, it fits their image of being the best equipped for GK's to get access to the oldest & more advanced tech within the Space Marine arsenal.
And also because, we're never going to see Jetbikes... (sadly!)
It also gives the GK's some added anti-vehicle capability without simply throwing a more mundane option like Missile launchers or Lascannons at them. Plus Speeders are still light enough to not come off as obnoxious, and honestly, I think the image of a flight of Speeders acting as swift escorts to the heavier Storm Ravens is f****** awesome!
I dunno though- most Chapters seem to keep a healthy pool of Speeders. Generally speaking, I think that the Salamanders are the only one that generally eschews Speeders, and it's more to do with local conditions on Nocturne making Speeder deployment... unsuitable.
Also, Speeders can't really escort Stormravens, on account of Speeder flight ceiling being limited to about 50 meters, IIRC.
With regards to Jetbikes for Grey Knights.... I WANT THAT SO HARD NOW. GKs are supposed to get all the best gubbins and bits right? I mean, they've even got their own Forgeworld! If the Mechanicus is going to build Jetbikes for anybody... it'd be the Grey Knights.
Incidentally, "why no Jetbikes" came up in a thread in the Background forum, and I think the consensus is that while the plans might be entirely lost, it's equally possible that the plans are considered "tainted" in some fashion (and have been untainted by the GKs, perhaps?) or are incomplete or are simply considered unnecessary for regular Marines.
Also, GKs on Jetbikes totally fits with their theme of "really extra elite", as well as playing into the knightly motif.
What do you think of a "blessed MM"? It's something that's rather lacking in the GK book- dedicated anti-armor guns. It's also the sort of thing that seems like it fits with all the other short-ranged guns the GKs get, as well as the whole "gonna get purged" theme. Also emphasizes the close/mid range shooting of GKs, since that seems to be one of the strongpoints of the army on the table.
I think a 'blessed' Melta type weaponry would be more suited to the Sisters, as mass flamers/meltas is pretty much their big thing...
The real fix for GK anti-tank in general is for GW to get off their arse and re-do the freaking Razorback kit to include it's added turret options dammit! (and to re-do the basic Dreadnought kit as well to include the twin-autos + heavy flamer arms...)
The options are there to supplement the likes of 'Ceptors w/Psycannons or bunkered backfield Dreads and such, it's just far too much hassle to get the required bitz to convert everything!
Mass flamer/melta is the Sisters thing, true, but it does somewhat fit with the Grey Knights as well. Also, definitely agree that the Razorback/Dread kits need to be updated to include all the weapon options- or at least enough that it's not unreasonable to convert the needed-but-unincluded parts.
Still, I do think some sort of melta-weapon would be appropriate, and also allow a cleaner removal of Rending Psycannons (because the latter is stupid). It's also worth noting that GKs don't really do mass flamer/melta, but more of a "blessed/holy" flamer shtick. Why not extend it to a "more-holy" melta weapon?
Experiment 626 wrote: Well, keep in mind that, Precog only ever effects the caster - never a whole unit. (hence why you'd need the IG Priest to build to the Super Deathstar)
Secondly, do you really want to know what happens when a Boomstick LoC with +1W & IWNDANDFnP 4+ gets to cast Precog on itself?! I won't use that rank b******* ever again honestly... solo-ing almost an entire army of CSM's by himself while hilarious, made me die a little on the inside at just how stupid that game got.
And he'd be tame compared to the GK version of re-rolled 2++ unit, which is saying something!
/shrugs
I guess the only difference is that now you can bulk up the unit to around seven dudes in TDA, plus an IG Priest, and toss in a Techmarine with a Servo-Harness, and pack them into a Land Raider Crusader partybus, before proceeding to drive towards the enemy and roll face.
Expensive, sure. Not much of a difference from most deathstars, truthfully.
I just want to single this out, because "army of generalists" for Marines, in practice, correlates to "army of overpriced generalists". It's moved from "feature" to "flaw", and it mostly comes down to the fact that Marines are terrible generalists. They pay for equipment that they rarely use, and then people point this out, at which point non-Marine players (oftentimes comparing to Xeno armies) will say "but you get all this stuff included, and my army doesn't get half of that at all, and the other half I have to pay for!"
Unfortunately, the reality is that substantial amounts of the equipment Marines pay for is only rarely used.
However, IMO the solution is not "remove it", but "heavily discount it". Purgation squads shouldn't pay as much for Force Weapons and grenades because they aren't going to want to be in a position to use them- but they should still keep those things and still pay for them. Similarly, bog-standard vanilla Tactical Marines should pay very little for their grenades and sidearm, because it's unlikely that they'll actually get the chance to use those things.
Though I agree with your sentiment Whiskey, there is a potential general problem with just discounting wargear on a unit that isn't going to make much use of it. That problem comes from the fact that you could potentially create a unit that is not supposed to be good at CC. but is point for point cheaper than an identical unit that is supposed to be better at CC. In the GK case, Puragation Squads and Strike Squads are basically the same (a couple rules different), are equiped the same, and cost the same. If the Purgation Squad paid less for their Force weapons and such, then they actually are better for their points then the Strike Squad at something that they are supposed to be worse at.
The better option, IMO, is to discount upgrades based on what is being removed from the model for the upgrade and to price upgrades on units to encourage them being used for their particular role. A Puragator that has an upgraded weapon shouldn't have the cost of a Force weapon in his profile after he has removed it. If the special weapon upgrades were cheaper for the Puragation squad than the rest of the units, then people would be inclined to use them as a special weapon unit, instead of just taking Purifiers to fill a role they shouldn't have.
Primaris Power
Banishment............................Warp Charge 2
The Psyker bends his will to dissolving the bonds that tether the daemonic to the mortal plane, casting them back into the Warp.
"Banishment is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, attacks made by the Psyker and his unit ignore Daemons invulnerable saves.
This new form of Banishment would be harder to cast, but would have more substantial effects for the firing unit, yet is balanced out by not reducing the Daemon's Invulnerable Save for any other units shooting at it. At 2 Warp Charges, the opportunity costs of using Banishment would make the Grey Knights choose between using it and their other powers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thoughts on replacing the 4th power in Sanctic (Purge Soul) with something like:
4. (Insert name here)…………………..Warp Charge 1
(Insert italicized fluff explanation of the power)
(power name) is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit gain the Shred special rule on their shooting attacks.
Any tweaks to the wording to make it smoother? What should the power be named? What would be the italicized fluff explanation?
Primaris Power
Banishment............................Warp Charge 2
The Psyker bends his will to dissolving the bonds that tether the daemonic to the mortal plane, casting them back into the Warp.
"Banishment is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, attacks made by the Psyker his unit ignore Daemons invulnerable saves.
This new form of Banishment would be harder to cast, but would have more substantial effects for the firing unit, yet is balanced out by not reducing the Daemon's Invulnerable Save for any other units shooting at it. At 2 Warp Charges, the opportunity costs of using Banishment would make the Grey Knights choose between using it and their other powers.
I'm really disliking it- most Daemons units have poor invulns and a power which is supposed to strip all Daemon invulns seems really... broken and biased, TBH. If this is based on the whole "old-school Psycannon ignores your invuln" shtick, then I'm rather disappointed- pretty much the reason I want that to come back so much is twofold:
1) No more Rending Psycannons, because that is stupid.
2) 2++ re-rollable deathstar shenanigans become impossibru, on account of the invuln being ignored entirely.
The current version of Banishment is much more balanced and more useful- mostly because it affects both shooting and combat.
Bill1138 wrote: Thoughts on replacing the 4th power in Sanctic (Purge Soul) with something like:
4. (Insert name here)…………………..Warp Charge 1
(Insert italicized fluff explanation of the power)
(power name) is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit gain the Shred special rule on their shooting attacks.
Any tweaks to the wording to make it smoother? What should the power be named? What would be the italicized fluff explanation?
In all honesty I dislike the idea of a psychic power that directly buffs the effectiveness of a weapon. Yes, I do think that Purgation squads should get some kind of semi-unique power that makes them Relentless, but that's more to do with the general lack of mobility that GK heavies confer (paradoxically). In any case, I don't think that the Sanctic tree actually needs much work, and other than preventing Sanctuary from stacking with itself (to prevent 2++ re-rollable shenanigans of stupid), it would seem that Sanctic is set up quite well.
Freezerassasin wrote: Though I agree with your sentiment Whiskey, there is a potential general problem with just discounting wargear on a unit that isn't going to make much use of it. That problem comes from the fact that you could potentially create a unit that is not supposed to be good at CC. but is point for point cheaper than an identical unit that is supposed to be better at CC. In the GK case, Puragation Squads and Strike Squads are basically the same (a couple rules different), are equiped the same, and cost the same. If the Purgation Squad paid less for their Force weapons and such, then they actually are better for their points then the Strike Squad at something that they are supposed to be worse at.
The better option, IMO, is to discount upgrades based on what is being removed from the model for the upgrade and to price upgrades on units to encourage them being used for their particular role. A Puragator that has an upgraded weapon shouldn't have the cost of a Force weapon in his profile after he has removed it. If the special weapon upgrades were cheaper for the Puragation squad than the rest of the units, then people would be inclined to use them as a special weapon unit, instead of just taking Purifiers to fill a role they shouldn't have.
You bring up a good point, and a similarly good alternative- Purgation squads getting discounted heavies would be good. I'd also like to take this opportunity to make a more thorough commentary about GK specials, in particular the Psycannon and Psilencer.
Let's begin.
Psilencers are only good when you activate Force, and only against T4, multi-wound models, with a 3+ or poorer save. Against T3 multi-wound models, the Psycannon is better- at S7 it doubles them out natively, and provides Rending, and an actual AP value. Here's a few worked examples, assuming two Psilencers/Psycannons (IE, a min-maxed Purifier/Purgation squad or a max-size Strike/Interceptor/GKT squad). I'm also assuming the squad is either sitting still for maximum effect or is Relentless (IE, it's a GKT squad)
Psilencer, T3 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, 5.28 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get ~4.4 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~3.5 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get ~2.6 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~1.7 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T3 Infantry
8 shots @ BS4, for 5.28 hits, 4.4 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
5+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
4+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
3+ Armor, we get ~2.3 unsaved wounds; Rending adds ~0.88 wounds, assuming I've done my math right
Psilencer, T4 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, 4 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get ~3.3 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~2.6 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get 2 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~1.3 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T4 Infantry
8 shots @ BS4, for 5.28 hits, 4.4 wounds before saves
6+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
5+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
4+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
3+ Armor, we get ~2.3 unsaved wounds, due to Rending
Psilencer, T5 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, ~2.6 wounds before saves
6+ Armor, we get ~2.2 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~1.7 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get ~1.3 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~0.9 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T5 Infantry
Honestly, I'm not even going to bother doing the numbers for this entry- it'll be the exact same as the Psycannon performs against T3 and T4 infantry models.
In any case, we see something very interesting: the only place where Psilencers would actually excel is against T4, average-to-poor save, multi-wound models, on account of being able to leverage Force. Against T3, Psycannons are equal-or-better and offer Rending to punch through 3+ armor when required, plus, being S7, they double out T3 natively- multi-wound T3 is no better off (it's actually worse, in fact) against a Psycannon than a Psilencer.
Anything with 4+ armor is generally getting smashed harder by Psycannons than it is by Psilencers- against T4/2W type models it's variable, on account of Force allowing the Psilencer to "punch up" quite a bit... the problem becomes that the only time Psycannons aren't as good at killing infantry-type models as a Psilencer, is if it's T4 multi-wound infantry; said models sit in the "sweet spot" where they have enough Toughness to not be doubled out by Psycannons, but enough wounds to make Force a huge deal.
Against T3 or T5 infantry of any kind- or T4 single-wound infantry- the Psycannon is flat-out superior. On top of that, the Psycannon is S7 and Rending, making it capable of cracking open light armor, engaging MCs, and in a pinch being pointed at heavy AV13/14 threats.
Psilencers, OTOH, are only good at killing T4 multi-wound models with average saves. Granted, most such models have 4+/5+ armor or invulnerable saves, but generally speaking there's not really much incentive to take Psilencers against such threats anyways- Psycannons can still kill them reasonably well, while also being far better at killing literally anything else.
This is, incidentally, why I think S5 for Psilencers is the simplest fix as far as "what are Psilencers good at killing, versus what are Psycannons good at killing". Other options consist of either allowing Psilencers to gain Rending only when activated as Force weapons (IE, you must trigger Force in order to gain Rending), as this gives Psilencers a bit of a leg up when shooting at any kind of multi-wound model, or perhaps giving them Haywire under similar conditions (IE, activate Force, get Haywire as a bonus) to make Psilencers a bit more versatile.
I'm not really sold on the latter, TBH- with 6 shots you're going to crack open almost anything due to hulling it out, which is quite frankly an undesirable result- at least, IMO.
It also highlights the fact that the Psycannon is basically the ultimate "TAC" heavy for GKs- there's literally nothing it can't shoot at with at least passable results. Considering that, I'd like to propose the following changes:
Psilencer 36" Salvo 4/6 S5 AP- Force
OR
36" Salvo 4/6 S4 AP- Force, Force Rending
Force Rending: When activated as a Force weapon, this weapon also gains the Rending trait. If the activation fails (or is not attempted), the Rending trait is not used.
Psycannon 36" Salvo 2/3 S6 AP4 Psybolt
Psybolt: Saves conferred by Psychic Powers are ignored; additionally, if a save is improved by a Psychic Power, wounds inflicted by the Psycannon ignore the modifier, using a model's base save instead. Further, failed saves may not be re-rolled by wounds caused by the Psycannon.
In short, Psycannons become the preferred solution for giving "get rekt" notices to 2++ re-rollable deathstar shenanigans. Oh, you get a 2++ re-rollable because psychic BS? Sorry, Psycannons require you to stick to that base save instead.
If you couldn't tell, yes, I have a flaming vehement hatred for 2++ re-rollable save bs.
Incinerator Unchanged; I find that this weapon is pretty much set the way it is.
Psi-Melta 18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force
A Grey Knights melta weapon, for cracking heavy armor. Since under my proposal the Psycannon loses Rending, it then becomes blatantly clear that the GKs need some kind of anti-vehicle/-MC/-TEQ weapon. Psi-Meltas would be fluffed as meltaguns combined with Psilencer-style bits to boost melta range (hence 18" range), that also had the side effect of infusing the melta blast with psychic power (hence Force).
S8/AP1 and Force- but only one shot- means that it's very likely that you could gib a Riptide or Wraithknight with one of these. Being S8/AP1 and Melta, you've also got fair potential to crack open heavy armor. Even just S8/AP1 and 18" range means that it's a substantial threat to somewhat heavy (AV12 or so) armored vehicles.
Thoughts on my changes to Psilencers and Psycannons, as well as the introduction of the Psi-Melta?
Primaris Power
Banishment............................Warp Charge 2
The Psyker bends his will to dissolving the bonds that tether the daemonic to the mortal plane, casting them back into the Warp.
"Banishment is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, attacks made by the Psyker his unit ignore Daemons invulnerable saves.
This new form of Banishment would be harder to cast, but would have more substantial effects for the firing unit, yet is balanced out by not reducing the Daemon's Invulnerable Save for any other units shooting at it. At 2 Warp Charges, the opportunity costs of using Banishment would make the Grey Knights choose between using it and their other powers.
I'm really disliking it- most Daemons units have poor invulns and a power which is supposed to strip all Daemon invulns seems really... broken and biased, TBH. If this is based on the whole "old-school Psycannon ignores your invuln" shtick, then I'm rather disappointed- pretty much the reason I want that to come back so much is twofold:
1) No more Rending Psycannons, because that is stupid.
2) 2++ re-rollable deathstar shenanigans become impossibru, on account of the invuln being ignored entirely.
The current version of Banishment is much more balanced and more useful- mostly because it affects both shooting and combat.
It's a Warp Charge 2 power that effects one unit, and only for the unit that cast the power. Did you even read the suggestion?
Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only special weapon the Grey Knights have to counter that. The Psycannon really needs Rending to stay, and you just calling it stupid isn't helpful or constructive.
Please actually read what I suggested before complaining about it. It only removes Daemons' Invulnerable Saves, and only for one unit for each casting AS A WARP CHARGE 2 Power. And it applies to both shooting and close combat, so that part of your complaint just doesn't reflect what I said.
Bill1138 wrote: Thoughts on replacing the 4th power in Sanctic (Purge Soul) with something like:
4. (Insert name here)…………………..Warp Charge 1
(Insert italicized fluff explanation of the power)
(power name) is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker and his unit gain the Shred special rule on their shooting attacks.
Any tweaks to the wording to make it smoother? What should the power be named? What would be the italicized fluff explanation?
In all honesty I dislike the idea of a psychic power that directly buffs the effectiveness of a weapon. Yes, I do think that Purgation squads should get some kind of semi-unique power that makes them Relentless, but that's more to do with the general lack of mobility that GK heavies confer (paradoxically). In any case, I don't think that the Sanctic tree actually needs much work, and other than preventing Sanctuary from stacking with itself (to prevent 2++ re-rollable shenanigans of stupid), it would seem that Sanctic is set up quite well.
GW is moving away from unique powers on units. They want everything to be on a tree. I simply picked what I saw as the least useful power in Sanctic and replaced it with one that would be a helpful buff for shooting.
And have you encountered anyone who's actually stacked Sanctuary in a Grey Knight list for 2++? The sheer cost of the unit would be completely impractical and wouldn't leave enough points to have enough other units to claim objectives. The opponent would simply kill everything else and then stay away from the super unit. Game over, tfg with the super unit loses.
Primaris Power
Banishment............................Warp Charge 2
The Psyker bends his will to dissolving the bonds that tether the daemonic to the mortal plane, casting them back into the Warp.
"Banishment is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, attacks made by the Psyker his unit ignore Daemons invulnerable saves.
This new form of Banishment would be harder to cast, but would have more substantial effects for the firing unit, yet is balanced out by not reducing the Daemon's Invulnerable Save for any other units shooting at it. At 2 Warp Charges, the opportunity costs of using Banishment would make the Grey Knights choose between using it and their other powers.
I'm really disliking it- most Daemons units have poor invulns and a power which is supposed to strip all Daemon invulns seems really... broken and biased, TBH. If this is based on the whole "old-school Psycannon ignores your invuln" shtick, then I'm rather disappointed- pretty much the reason I want that to come back so much is twofold:
1) No more Rending Psycannons, because that is stupid.
2) 2++ re-rollable deathstar shenanigans become impossibru, on account of the invuln being ignored entirely.
The current version of Banishment is much more balanced and more useful- mostly because it affects both shooting and combat.
It's a Warp Charge 2 power that effects one unit, and only for the unit that cast the power. Did you even read the suggestion?
Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only special weapon the Grey Knights have to counter that. The Psycannon really needs Rending to stay, and you just calling it stupid isn't helpful or constructive.
Please actually read what I suggested before complaining about it. It only removes Daemons' Invulnerable Saves, and only for one unit for each casting AS A WARP CHARGE 2 Power. And it applies to both shooting and close combat, so that part of your complaint just doesn't reflect what I said.
- You know how Marine players are constantly & vehemently complaining all the time about how there's far too much ap2/3 in the game and it makes their 3+ saves all but useless? This is doing the exact same thing to every single Daemon player.
You can readily cast this on 3 dice - 4 is only needed to play the odds and ensure a more likely chance of success. Considering how easy it is to spam WC's in a Grey Knight army, with this kind of bs, you'd easily be able to get this off 3-4 times per phase in average sized games. That's effectively allowing the GK player to auto-delete at least 2 targets automatically.
Banishment is perfectly fine as is. Right now you get to cut a Daemon's basic save in half for a cheap casting cost, and it's also a Malediction power, meaning that unlike a Blessing, it's stackable as well.
- Yes, Rending was a dumb thing to give the Psycannon in the last codex. "Mind bullets" somehow ripping apart vehicles is nonsense. If it was to gain Rending at all, then it should only ever be applied against models with the 'Daemon' USR and 'Psyker' or 'Brotherhood of Psyker/Sorcerers' rules.
Bill1138 wrote: GW is moving away from unique powers on units. They want everything to be on a tree. I simply picked what I saw as the least useful power in Sanctic and replaced it with one that would be a helpful buff for shooting.
And have you encountered anyone who's actually stacked Sanctuary in a Grey Knight list for 2++? The sheer cost of the unit would be completely impractical and wouldn't leave enough points to have enough other units to claim objectives. The opponent would simply kill everything else and then stay away from the super unit. Game over, tfg with the super unit loses.
If you want to remove Purge Soul and replace it with anything, then it should be The Holocaust...
And absolutely yes, I've encountered MANY Imperial armies running 2++ Deathstars thanks to Grey Knight shenanigans! Centstar being the most outright broken offender, with re-rolling GK or Hammernator Deathstars being only ever so slightly worse. (as MSU spam can at least feed them min sized units all day long...)
The cost, especially in a Centstar isn't an issue at all considering that unit is both;
a) pretty much impossible to ever kill.
b) is able to point and delete almost anything you can throw at it, except perhaps a Greentide or 40-50man IG blob should you fail to land Cleansing Flame.
@Whiskey144: Personally I don't like the idea of a 'super meltagun' for GK's as it just seems to step too much on the toes of the Sisters identity...
Instead, what about something like;
- Psy-Lance - S8/ap2/Lance/*Psychic bane Heavy 1
*a weapon with this rule may re-roll failed to-wound rolls and armour penetration rolls against models with 'Daemon' and/or 'Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers' rule.
This gives the Knights a generic anti-tank weapon - perhaps keep it to a 24" range, or else take the 18"/Assault 1?
It of course gets slightly better vs. the GK's traditional foes, yet is not on the same levels of outright crap like the previous codex's issues with unfairly picking on Daemons & Psykers in general.
And this way, the door is open for the Sisters to get the super blessed melta weaponry.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Mind bullets" is nonsense but Daemons taking physical form from the emotions of mortals is just fine?
The issue with the "mind bullets" is just giving them a flat out +1S vs. everything... Psybolts are no more effective vs. non-psykers & daemons than regular bolt shells. They are supposed to be a counter to a very specific target, hence give them something that does just that!
+1S vs. Daemons/Psykers, or Shred vs. those targets, or re-roll 1's to-wound, etc... but they should never have any form of bonus vs. any kind of mundane, non-psychic or non-daemonic target.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "Mind bullets" is nonsense but Daemons taking physical form from the emotions of mortals is just fine?
The issue with the "mind bullets" is just giving them a flat out +1S vs. everything... Psybolts are no more effective vs. non-psykers & daemons than regular bolt shells. They are supposed to be a counter to a very specific target, hence give them something that does just that!
+1S vs. Daemons/Psykers, or Shred vs. those targets, or re-roll 1's to-wound, etc... but they should never have any form of bonus vs. any kind of mundane, non-psychic or non-daemonic target.
Well, the 5th edition Codex fluff disagrees with you. If Chaos can fire Daemon Bolter shells in Apocalypse that are S: D because it's possessed by a Daemon then why would a psyker be unable to magnify the damage caused by their bolts? I mean, Thousand Sons have been doing it with their Inferno Bolts since forever, and that's never been an issue.
The "mind bullets are stupid" argument is really tedious. Think of it as a "Caster bullet". The Psyker is casting a psychic power through the Bullet to the victim. It is not in the slightest any more ridiculous than ANYTHING else in 40k.
Bill1138 wrote: The "mind bullets are stupid" argument is really tedious. Think of it as a "Caster bullet". The Psyker is casting a psychic power through the Bullet to the victim. It is not in the slightest any more ridiculous than ANYTHING else in 40k.
Except that is not what Psybolts are... they're bolt shells that are imparted with a tiny measure of the Emperor's psychic might - think of them as the 'ultra-violet' bullets from Underworld. Vs. a normal human, that round is no deadlier than a basic bullet. To a Vampire however, it's instant freaking death!
In the last codex however, these super rare bullets that are designed specifically to be anathema to warp creatures & psykers were 100% as effective vs. everything else in the game.
Psycannons are even dumber in their current incarnation, as despite supposedly being a weapon designed to murder daemons & psykers, it's at it's most effective when chewing up mundane battle tanks?!
It's stupid because these weapons have rules that fly in the face of their background.
Bill1138 wrote: The "mind bullets are stupid" argument is really tedious. Think of it as a "Caster bullet". The Psyker is casting a psychic power through the Bullet to the victim. It is not in the slightest any more ridiculous than ANYTHING else in 40k.
Except that is not what Psybolts are... they're bolt shells that are imparted with a tiny measure of the Emperor's psychic might - think of them as the 'ultra-violet' bullets from Underworld. Vs. a normal human, that round is no deadlier than a basic bullet. To a Vampire however, it's instant freaking death!
In the last codex however, these super rare bullets that are designed specifically to be anathema to warp creatures & psykers were 100% as effective vs. everything else in the game.
Psycannons are even dumber in their current incarnation, as despite supposedly being a weapon designed to murder daemons & psykers, it's at it's most effective when chewing up mundane battle tanks?!
It's stupid because these weapons have rules that fly in the face of their background.
Codex: Grey Knights 5th edition, page 62, "Psybolt Ammunition wrote:Psybolts are silver-tipped, psychically charged shells, used in storm bolters and similar weapons. When fired, each bolt becomes imbued with a portion of the Grey Knight's innate psycic power, causing it to glow with an eerie blue light, and strike home with significantly greater force than an ordinary round of its type. Psybolts are difficult to produce and incredibly wearing on a gun's inner mechanisms, but provide the Grey Knights with a relatively straightforward method of enhancing the power of standard-pattern weaponry, without resorting to extensive retrofitting of the weapon itself.
It's designed to kill Daemons and Psykers by blowing them up better than normal ammunition. You're simply wrong.
I like most the suggestions except for the paladins and losing force swords for other abilities.
It is a signature of the GK that each model have a force weapon. It is essential to being a GK and it should not be removed. Perhaps giving strike squads +1 attack or furious charge would make the worth taking. Or just bring back psybolt.
Paladins don't need expensive storm shield upgrades to be useful - What they need is stock Eternal warrior and come stock with sanctuary at their current price - then they are a strong unit that might get used over GKT.
Codex: Grey Knights 5th edition, page 62, "Psybolt Ammunition wrote:Psybolts are silver-tipped, psychically charged shells, used in storm bolters and similar weapons. When fired, each bolt becomes imbued with a portion of the Grey Knight's innate psycic power, causing it to glow with an eerie blue light, and strike home with significantly greater force than an ordinary round of its type. Psybolts are difficult to produce and incredibly wearing on a gun's inner mechanisms, but provide the Grey Knights with a relatively straightforward method of enhancing the power of standard-pattern weaponry, without resorting to extensive retrofitting of the weapon itself.
It's designed to kill Daemons and Psykers by blowing them up better than normal ammunition. You're simply wrong.
And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.
No invulns now that Daemons are their own army would be broken as flying rodent gak. They should be at most slightly better than a standard bolt shell, but they should also be much more effective vs. specifically daemons & psykers than they are against the likes of basic Guardsmen, Orks and every other non-daemonic or psychic target!
Xenomancers wrote: I like most the suggestions except for the paladins and losing force swords for other abilities.
It is a signature of the GK that each model have a force weapon. It is essential to being a GK and it should not be removed. Perhaps giving strike squads +1 attack or furious charge would make the worth taking. Or just bring back psybolt.
Paladins don't need expensive storm shield upgrades to be useful - What they need is stock Eternal warrior and come stock with sanctuary at their current price - then they are a strong unit that might get used over GKT.
2+/4++/5+++ Eternal Warriors? Okay, maybe if they're about 75pts each at a minimum!
I think part of the dichotomy between Strike Squads and Terminators is that they do the exact same thing, which means that one is inevitably going to be better than the other. If we gave Terminators better melee capability and short-range shooting (obviously while nerfing/changing longer-range shooting) and gave Strike Squad better ranged capabilities then we could achieve a state where neither of the two Troops choices is overshadowed by the other.
And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.
WHY is it dumb though? I mean, the German army used the flak 88 as an anti-tank cannon despite the fact that it was designed as an anti-aircraft cannon because it was damn good at it. Why could the Grey Knights not have anti-Daemon weaponry that just happens to blow the living gak out of everyone else as well?
The +1 STR on everything needed to have cost a lot more than it did. I'm not in favor of going back to that unless GK are going to be VERY pricey to field.
Xenomancers wrote: I like most the suggestions except for the paladins and losing force swords for other abilities.
It is a signature of the GK that each model have a force weapon. It is essential to being a GK and it should not be removed. Perhaps giving strike squads +1 attack or furious charge would make the worth taking. Or just bring back psybolt.
Paladins don't need expensive storm shield upgrades to be useful - What they need is stock Eternal warrior and come stock with sanctuary at their current price - then they are a strong unit that might get used over GKT.
Thanks! I like those suggestions, and I'll incorporate them into my proposed changes.
Codex: Grey Knights 5th edition, page 62, "Psybolt Ammunition wrote:Psybolts are silver-tipped, psychically charged shells, used in storm bolters and similar weapons. When fired, each bolt becomes imbued with a portion of the Grey Knight's innate psycic power, causing it to glow with an eerie blue light, and strike home with significantly greater force than an ordinary round of its type. Psybolts are difficult to produce and incredibly wearing on a gun's inner mechanisms, but provide the Grey Knights with a relatively straightforward method of enhancing the power of standard-pattern weaponry, without resorting to extensive retrofitting of the weapon itself.
It's designed to kill Daemons and Psykers by blowing them up better than normal ammunition. You're simply wrong.
And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.
No invulns now that Daemons are their own army would be broken as flying rodent gak. They should be at most slightly better than a standard bolt shell, but they should also be much more effective vs. specifically daemons & psykers than they are against the likes of basic Guardsmen, Orks and every other non-daemonic or psychic target!
Xenomancers wrote: I like most the suggestions except for the paladins and losing force swords for other abilities.
It is a signature of the GK that each model have a force weapon. It is essential to being a GK and it should not be removed. Perhaps giving strike squads +1 attack or furious charge would make the worth taking. Or just bring back psybolt.
Paladins don't need expensive storm shield upgrades to be useful - What they need is stock Eternal warrior and come stock with sanctuary at their current price - then they are a strong unit that might get used over GKT.
2+/4++/5+++ Eternal Warriors? Okay, maybe if they're about 75pts each at a minimum!
Uhh...thunderwolves are T5 2w and 3++ for 20 points less than that random 75* points you throw out there...and naturally mobile and have twice the attacks. I'm really not following you here.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I think part of the dichotomy between Strike Squads and Terminators is that they do the exact same thing, which means that one is inevitably going to be better than the other. If we gave Terminators better melee capability and short-range shooting (obviously while nerfing/changing longer-range shooting) and gave Strike Squad better ranged capabilities then we could achieve a state where neither of the two Troops choices is overshadowed by the other.
Or just give Strikes the Scout USR and allow them to function as their background says they do?!
And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.
WHY is it dumb though? I mean, the German army used the flak 88 as an anti-tank cannon despite the fact that it was designed as an anti-aircraft cannon because it was damn good at it. Why could the Grey Knights not have anti-Daemon weaponry that just happens to blow the living gak out of everyone else as well?
Their original rules did let them blow the living gak out of everyone else as well thanks to ap4. But they still need to represent the fact that these rounds are only made because they are literally kryptonite to warp creatures & psykers. If it's just going to be dumbed down to an across the board, stronger bolt round, then give it a new name, and let Sternguards take them too.
I highly doubt that Grey Knights need to go to such lengths to create a simple +1S bullet themselves, when they have an entire Forgeworld at their beckon call who could almost certainly do the same thing, and produce them in much higher quantities!
Hell, I'd even be okay with rules that give Psybolts the likes of Fleshbane vs. Daemons & Psykers! Just bring them back to their roots, and rid them of the silly Wardian gak.
2+/4++/5+++ Eternal Warriors? Okay, maybe if they're about 75pts each at a minimum!
Uhh...thunderwolves are T5 2w and 3++ for 20 points less than that random 75* points you throw out there...and naturally mobile and have twice the attacks. I'm really not following you here.
Show me where Thunderwolves have 2+ saves, unit-wide Force weapons, a handy +2S power, actual shooting abilities, an additional FnP save, and are immune to all forms of Instant Death.
Yes, Thunderwolves are among the game's best assault units. They're also one-shotable by the likes of S10, Wraithcannons, pointy-death-sticks, etc...
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I think part of the dichotomy between Strike Squads and Terminators is that they do the exact same thing, which means that one is inevitably going to be better than the other. If we gave Terminators better melee capability and short-range shooting (obviously while nerfing/changing longer-range shooting) and gave Strike Squad better ranged capabilities then we could achieve a state where neither of the two Troops choices is overshadowed by the other.
Or just give Strikes the Scout USR and allow them to function as their background says they do?!
And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.
WHY is it dumb though? I mean, the German army used the flak 88 as an anti-tank cannon despite the fact that it was designed as an anti-aircraft cannon because it was damn good at it. Why could the Grey Knights not have anti-Daemon weaponry that just happens to blow the living gak out of everyone else as well?
Their original rules did let them blow the living gak out of everyone else as well thanks to ap4. But they still need to represent the fact that these rounds are only made because they are literally kryptonite to warp creatures & psykers. If it's just going to be dumbed down to an across the board, stronger bolt round, then give it a new name, and let Sternguards take them too.
Sternguard aren't Psykers. It's the fact that it's psychic that makes it dangerous to Daemons, it just so happens that the bullets hit everyone else harder as well. Further, they're rare enough that they can't be mass produced, so only the Grey Knights get them. This is hardly "Wardian gak", it's completely justifiable fluff-wise.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I think part of the dichotomy between Strike Squads and Terminators is that they do the exact same thing, which means that one is inevitably going to be better than the other. If we gave Terminators better melee capability and short-range shooting (obviously while nerfing/changing longer-range shooting) and gave Strike Squad better ranged capabilities then we could achieve a state where neither of the two Troops choices is overshadowed by the other.
Or just give Strikes the Scout USR and allow them to function as their background says they do?!
And their previous rules were ap4/no invulns allowed. Hitting harder doesn't automatically mean +1S. Better penetration and additional counter vs. daemons & psykers is what they are.
Across the board S5 which effected every other army equally as much as it did Daemons & Psykers is what made them dumb. Hence why just a flat out +1S made no sense then, and still makes no sense now.
WHY is it dumb though? I mean, the German army used the flak 88 as an anti-tank cannon despite the fact that it was designed as an anti-aircraft cannon because it was damn good at it. Why could the Grey Knights not have anti-Daemon weaponry that just happens to blow the living gak out of everyone else as well?
Their original rules did let them blow the living gak out of everyone else as well thanks to ap4. But they still need to represent the fact that these rounds are only made because they are literally kryptonite to warp creatures & psykers. If it's just going to be dumbed down to an across the board, stronger bolt round, then give it a new name, and let Sternguards take them too.
I highly doubt that Grey Knights need to go to such lengths to create a simple +1S bullet themselves, when they have an entire Forgeworld at their beckon call who could almost certainly do the same thing, and produce them in much higher quantities!
Hell, I'd even be okay with rules that give Psybolts the likes of Fleshbane vs. Daemons & Psykers! Just bring them back to their roots, and rid them of the silly Wardian gak.
2+/4++/5+++ Eternal Warriors? Okay, maybe if they're about 75pts each at a minimum!
Uhh...thunderwolves are T5 2w and 3++ for 20 points less than that random 75* points you throw out there...and naturally mobile and have twice the attacks. I'm really not following you here.
Show me where Thunderwolves have 2+ saves, unit-wide Force weapons, a handy +2S power, actual shooting abilities, an additional FnP save, and are immune to all forms of Instant Death.
Yes, Thunderwolves are among the game's best assault units. They're also one-shotable by the likes of S10, Wraithcannons, pointy-death-sticks, etc...
A 6 inch move after deployment? Forgive me - thats gak. Infiltrate is far more useful. Considering GK have no DP it would give CAD over nemesis strike force some value. If SS had infiltrate - I would use them over Terms in some situations.
I'm sorry, but if you gave Strikes the Infiltrate rule, you'd guarantee you'll only ever see Nemesis detachments, as you'd simply turn GK's into the ultimate Alpha Strike T1 win-button army...
"Show me where Thunderwolves have 2+ saves, unit-wide Force weapons, a handy +2S power, actual shooting abilities, an additional FnP save, and are immune to all forms of Instant Death.
Yes, Thunderwolves are among the game's best assault units. They're also one-shotable by the likes of S10, Wraithcannons, pointy-death-sticks, etc..."
They don't have 2+ saves but they do have t5 - which is comparable protection. ST10 is exceptionally rare - fair price to pay when str6 only wounds you on a 3+ and not a 2+. The changes I suggest merely place paladins in line with thunder wolves not OP in the slightest. BTW - rending with double the attacks is hands down better than unit wide force weapons.
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm sorry, but if you gave Strikes the Infiltrate rule, you'd guarantee you'll only ever see Nemesis detachments, as you'd simply turn GK's into the ultimate Alpha Strike T1 win-button army...
How? The best gun in the army is S7, and it's not like the points costs lets you take a massive number of Psycannons. You have no non-vehicle big guns except on Dreadknights, and they can already be anywhere T1 anyway.
He's not claiming Scout would be stronger than Infiltrate.
He's claiming (and I agree) that Infiltrate would be both fluff-incompatable and broken. So maybe Scout would give you some of it, but not be broken (possibly).
Strike Squads have a smaller footprint, aren't as durable, and cost less. Basically, they are PAGK, and Termies are TDAGK. That seems like a differentiation.
What if, even without the special T1 roll-for-reserves formation, Strike Squads still came in T1? Would that do what you're looking for?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm less afraid of the T1 shooting (but I am quite afraid of it - it will be rough), and more afraid of the T2 assault-everything. Your opponent has one round to kill most of one of the most resilient armies out there, or they get charged by things that most armies simply can't handle.
As for comparing to Twolves, most people would say Twolves are OP, or at least near to. So you want your pallies to be OP too. Don't you think that might be a problem? I'd rather GK be in line with more even units.
Bharring wrote: He's not claiming Scout would be stronger than Infiltrate.
Where'd anyone say that's what he claimed?
I think the problem with army-wide Deep Striking is that it's an all-in strategy. Either it lets you demolish your opponent, in which case it's "unfair", or it's rubbish, in which case it's not going to see much play. Deep Striking puts your own forces at a significant risk as well, after all.
Experiment 626 wrote: I'm sorry, but if you gave Strikes the Infiltrate rule, you'd guarantee you'll only ever see Nemesis detachments, as you'd simply turn GK's into the ultimate Alpha Strike T1 win-button army...
DS and Infiltrate are different - hard to say one is strictly better than the other. NSF lets you DS on the firs turn though so...it is clearly better than infiltrate - just not for strike squads.
Xeno was pointing out that Scout instead of Infiltrate was a bad idea, because Infiltrate would be stronger. I was pointing out that that was the point.
Army-wide DS can be a bit skewish. Demons can do it too. As can Pod armies, Corsairs and Farsighted Enclave, among others. But those are mostly either without homers or are shooty forces.
GKs can be brutal already. It would be nice to be less monobuild (although that would be hard with such a small codex). But just buffing stuff in an already-strong codex to epic proportions isn't the right move.
If you want to DS fast and close with good CC units, you should risk scatter. If you want to use a homer, getting it down field quickly/easily should be costly/difficult.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Xeno - the point of giving Strike Squads infiltrate was to get beacons wherever the GK player wanted. That's why Infiltrate is being used to allow precision deep strike in this thread.
Bharring wrote: He's not claiming Scout would be stronger than Infiltrate.
He's claiming (and I agree) that Infiltrate would be both fluff-incompatable and broken. So maybe Scout would give you some of it, but not be broken (possibly).
Strike Squads have a smaller footprint, aren't as durable, and cost less. Basically, they are PAGK, and Termies are TDAGK. That seems like a differentiation.
What if, even without the special T1 roll-for-reserves formation, Strike Squads still came in T1? Would that do what you're looking for?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm less afraid of the T1 shooting (but I am quite afraid of it - it will be rough), and more afraid of the T2 assault-everything. Your opponent has one round to kill most of one of the most resilient armies out there, or they get charged by things that most armies simply can't handle.
As for comparing to Twolves, most people would say Twolves are OP, or at least near to. So you want your pallies to be OP too. Don't you think that might be a problem? I'd rather GK be in line with more even units.
Pallies are currently useless. IMO purgation squads are the only unit more useless. I propose the slightest change. Essentially and random +1 invo save which they can aquire from a GKL which is probably going to be in the unit anyways and remove ability to get 1 shot and you scream OP? Come on dude...which these changes they would still likely be on the shelf compared to dreadknights and centurion allies. It would just make them playable for friendly games.
4th version: This time I’ve included some explanations for my reasoning. I have incorporated several suggestions made by individuals on this thread. There are suggestions I have not incorporated, and if I do not list it in this post, then it is not part of my proposed update to the Codex.
Many thanks to the people who offered useful alternatives without feeling the need to call my suggestions “stupid” or “silly” in the process.
Chapter Tactics: The other Space Marines have Chapter Tactics that customize an army to the specific Chapter. The Chapter Tactics can be useful, but primarily exist for Fluff reasons. The Grey Knights are in their own Codex, so their Chapter Tactics were incorporated into the profiles of the units. Vanilla Marines are not charged for their Chapter Tactics, and I do not believe the Grey Knights should be charged for theirs.
The rules they already have that best qualify as Chapter Tactics for the Grey Knights are:
Chapter Tactics The Aegis
Prefered Enemy (Daemons)
Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit
Daemonology (Sanctic): I would replace the #4 power (Purge Soul) with a Blessing that improves shooting much like how Hammerhand improves Melee.
4. Psybolts…………………..Warp Charge 1
The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential.
Psybolt is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker’s unit’s shooting attacks gain +1 Strength.
Slight adjustments to which powers each unit starts out with would help diversify the units. So designated shooting units would have Psybolts, while designated close-combat would have Hammerhand, while both would have the Primaris as usual.
Special Weapons: I’d like to see Salvo fixed as much as anyone else, but my suggestions here do not include an assumption of Salvo receiving any change.
Psilencer: Range 36”, S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Force
Psycannon: Range 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending
The 36” range on both special weapons makes the half range for moving a useful 18”, so that they can be used on PAGK without being a liability. Now, a unit consisting of up to 9 models typically has access to one special weapon, and using the maximum range of this weapon would mean that the rest of the unit can not shoot, being as their Storm Bolters only have a 24” range.
The Psilencer gaining Salvo 4/6 is because as a Heavy 6 weapon, if the model moves, the Psilencer is objectively worse at causing wounds than the standard Storm Bolter. Thus it is now usable by units other than static gunlines..
The rest of both profiles are left the same. Psycannons and Psilencers would become popular on shooty units like Purgation Squads while the Incinerator would still be the better option for units that intend to get into close combat.
And Rending needs to stay on the Psycannon. Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only Special weapon the Grey Knights have that can harm that.
HQs I’d leave their options the same, but a few of their base prices are too high for what they’re capable of.
Strike Squad:
Make Rites of Teleportation (turn 1 Deep Strike) a special rule for Strike Squads instead of being a Detachment benefit for the Nemesis Strike force, but also have it reduce scatter to 1D6.
Elites
100pts – Dreadnought: Add a new piece of Wargear that grants the Dreadnought the option to use Skyfire each shooting phase.
Essentially the difference between the Space Marine Dreadnoughts and Grey Knight Dreadnoughts is what I’ve already characterized as the Grey Knight’s Chapter Tactics, whereas the Space Marines’ Chapter Tactics are listed separately.
Giving the Grey Knight Dreadnought an anti-air roll would definitely give them place in army lists along with the other units, and the Grey Knights are dreadfully lacking in anti-air as it is.
Paladins: At their current price, give them *T5 and Sanctuary.
It makes them more durable, but doesn’t give them ultimate Deep Strike, as Sanctuary can’t be cast before they come on the board, and they risk Perils to get it. *(edited from Eternal Warrior. T5 makes more sense)
Heavy:
Purgation Squad: replace Hammerhand Psychic power with the Psybolt power
As a designated shooting unit, they don’t need Hammerhand, and a psychic bonus to shooting would be much more useful.
270pts – Land Raider Redeemer: Add Torrent to Flamestorm Cannon Profile
The Land Raider Redeemers from other codexes would get the same treatment.
Dreadknight: Add a 30pt Storm Shield to the second bullet point of his options. Drop Sanctuary, and replace it with some appropriate power (Not Hammerhand, as the Dreadknight can’t use it, already being S10).
No access to 2++. No access to FNP. So he has to choose between getting a better Invulnerable save, and having two shooting weapons.
Making turn 1 teleportation for Strike Squads a thing while removing it from everyone else is an interesting take, but then you run into the issue of having the rest of the army come in piece-meal and getting obliterated.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Making turn 1 teleportation for Strike Squads a thing while removing it from everyone else is an interesting take, but then you run into the issue of having the rest of the army come in piece-meal and getting obliterated.
It gives the Strike Squads a unique role carrying Teleport Homers, to reduce the scatter of units that come later.
Dreadknights and Interceptors can still simulate a Deep Strike by using their Shunt move to get in position if they really need to, and Gate of Infinity can be used by a HQ to bring Terminators, Paladins, or Purifiers into the fight from a (relatively) safe initial starting position behind some sort of LoS blocking terrain.
Bharring wrote: Xeno was pointing out that Scout instead of Infiltrate was a bad idea, because Infiltrate would be stronger. I was pointing out that that was the point.
Army-wide DS can be a bit skewish. Demons can do it too. As can Pod armies, Corsairs and Farsighted Enclave, among others. But those are mostly either without homers or are shooty forces.
GKs can be brutal already. It would be nice to be less monobuild (although that would be hard with such a small codex). But just buffing stuff in an already-strong codex to epic proportions isn't the right move.
If you want to DS fast and close with good CC units, you should risk scatter. If you want to use a homer, getting it down field quickly/easily should be costly/difficult.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Xeno - the point of giving Strike Squads infiltrate was to get beacons wherever the GK player wanted. That's why Infiltrate is being used to allow precision deep strike in this thread.
I'd like to get infiltrate on SS because it gives them an actual role and allows you to post up your psycannons. Something to keep in mind is that a 10 man SS with 2 PC a hammer and a rhino is over 300 points. Shouldn't it do something useful? I mean for 70 more points I can have an IK for 50 less I can have 3 gravcannon centurions with rockets. I don't want SS to be a homing beacon - I want them to kill stuff otherwise I'll take other stuff that kills.
Sorry if I got a bit offensive. I really don't mean to be a jerk. I do see things differently. And am trying to be civil.
Strike Squad changes:
I assume you mean they roll to come in t1, not automatic? As that might be too much. And the -d6 might be a little much, but might be fine. Probably would need play testing.
Chapter Tactics:
Ageis and PEemons would be not quite enough, I think. But ML1, even on its own, is far too much to just be CT. Some of the cost of it would be CT, but it wouldn't fully account for it.
(Recall that almost all CT don't affect vehicles, but it looks like you already factored that in)
Psybolts - that's probably the best way to do Psybolts? Is it for any Sanctic, or just GK?
If we're updating Sanctic, as its basically the GK power table, just more widely available but at cost, what about making Sanctuary cap at a 3++? That would alleviate a lot of the concerns where you want to give better invulns to GKs. And some other potential abuses.
Dreadnoughts for all armies should probably have some AA option, but seems most poignant for GK. But aren't GK ones ML1, whereas I'm not sure vanilla ones get CT? probably not a huge issue, though.
LRR: Torrent is amazing. On something that sturdy, it might be a bit rough. I think default Torrent is 12" what if it was only 6"? Not sure either way, especially as LRs aren't considered great already, and you bumped the cost.
My concern with a t6 2+ 3++ is that, outside Poison, there is simply no effective weapon. High volume barely wounds it, then fails to beat its 2+. And now AP2 bounces off the things like pebbles. Perhaps if it were slow, or had only a few wounds, or didn't have any decent guns at all, or wasn't amazing in CC, it wouldn't be as big a deal. But the game already has too many too-good-at-everything models that are hard to kill. Now, you want to make one of them even harder to kill. There should be some option to hurt the thing, especially because it can't be ignored.
As for Pallies and EW, EW should be very, very rare. If you fail your invuln to a Lascannon or Wraithcannon, you should go splat.
That said, Acess to Sanctuary - provided they can't get better than a 3++ (I know you need to add something else for that - it'd only give them a 4++) is probably fine.
Bharring wrote: Sorry if I got a bit offensive. I really don't mean to be a jerk. I do see things differently. And am trying to be civil.
Strike Squad changes:
I assume you mean they roll to come in t1, not automatic? As that might be too much. And the -d6 might be a little much, but might be fine. Probably would need play testing.
Chapter Tactics:
Ageis and PEemons would be not quite enough, I think. But ML1, even on its own, is far too much to just be CT. Some of the cost of it would be CT, but it wouldn't fully account for it.
(Recall that almost all CT don't affect vehicles, but it looks like you already factored that in)
Psybolts - that's probably the best way to do Psybolts? Is it for any Sanctic, or just GK?
If we're updating Sanctic, as its basically the GK power table, just more widely available but at cost, what about making Sanctuary cap at a 3++? That would alleviate a lot of the concerns where you want to give better invulns to GKs. And some other potential abuses.
Dreadnoughts for all armies should probably have some AA option, but seems most poignant for GK. But aren't GK ones ML1, whereas I'm not sure vanilla ones get CT? probably not a huge issue, though.
LRR: Torrent is amazing. On something that sturdy, it might be a bit rough. I think default Torrent is 12" what if it was only 6"? Not sure either way, especially as LRs aren't considered great already, and you bumped the cost.
My concern with a t6 2+ 3++ is that, outside Poison, there is simply no effective weapon. High volume barely wounds it, then fails to beat its 2+. And now AP2 bounces off the things like pebbles. Perhaps if it were slow, or had only a few wounds, or didn't have any decent guns at all, or wasn't amazing in CC, it wouldn't be as big a deal. But the game already has too many too-good-at-everything models that are hard to kill. Now, you want to make one of them even harder to kill. There should be some option to hurt the thing, especially because it can't be ignored.
As for Pallies and EW, EW should be very, very rare. If you fail your invuln to a Lascannon or Wraithcannon, you should go splat.
That said, Acess to Sanctuary - provided they can't get better than a 3++ (I know you need to add something else for that - it'd only give them a 4++) is probably fine.
They need to be T5 then - if they aren't going to be EW. I'm pretty sure that would be better in almost every way unless getting shot by a wraith cannon or D weapon which is super rare or in close combat. realistically this should be an upgrade for all terminators at no additional cost already.
I'm just saying - I feel dumb playing with 2 w models with t4. Unless its a character I can hide in a squad. It's like having a target over your head that says - "fire all las cannons here to auto win the game."
Bharring wrote: Sorry if I got a bit offensive. I really don't mean to be a jerk. I do see things differently. And am trying to be civil.
Strike Squad changes:
I assume you mean they roll to come in t1, not automatic? As that might be too much. And the -d6 might be a little much, but might be fine. Probably would need play testing.
Yes, Rites of Teleportation allows the unit to roll for Deep Strike on turn 1, and lets them do an Eldar-like run and shoot on that first turn, but not before Interceptor Shots hit. This isn't too much as it already exists in the Nemesis Strike Force, but the units arriving have to survive an entire round of enemy shooting before they're allowed to charge into close combat.
The reduced scatter to 1d6 is because other armies know that if they're going up against Grey Knights that Deep Strike will be happening, and they can arrange their lines to restrict Deep Strike Access. Strike Squads are not overly dangerous for their costs, given they can only take one Special Weapon and they're paying for close-combat equipment they are likely to not survive long enough to use. They're just dangerous enough to have to be addressed.
Chapter Tactics:
Ageis and PEemons would be not quite enough, I think. But ML1, even on its own, is far too much to just be CT. Some of the cost of it would be CT, but it wouldn't fully account for it.
(Recall that almost all CT don't affect vehicles, but it looks like you already factored that in)
Check out Iron Hands. All of their Characters and vehicles get It Will Not Die, and all of their wound models get a 6+FNP. On top of that, Anything with Blessings of the Omnisiah get an extra +1 on top of their other perks for repairing vehicles. So I really don't think Psyker ML1 is too much for a Chapter Tactic.
Psybolts - that's probably the best way to do Psybolts? Is it for any Sanctic, or just GK?
Sanctic. Just about anyone can use it, it's just that non-Grey Knights Peril on all doubles.
If we're updating Sanctic, as its basically the GK power table, just more widely available but at cost, what about making Sanctuary cap at a 3++? That would alleviate a lot of the concerns where you want to give better invulns to GKs. And some other potential abuses.
Instead of putting that cap on Sanctuary, I believe it would be more fair to put that 3++ Cap across the entire game, just as an Armor or Cover Save can't be improved above 2+.
Dreadnoughts for all armies should probably have some AA option, but seems most poignant for GK. But aren't GK ones ML1, whereas I'm not sure vanilla ones get CT? probably not a huge issue, though.
I wouldn't have any problem with all Dreadnoughts having anti-air options. I only mentioned it specifically for the Grey Knights because we have no other deployable Anti-air.
LRR: Torrent is amazing. On something that sturdy, it might be a bit rough. I think default Torrent is 12" what if it was only 6"? Not sure either way, especially as LRs aren't considered great already, and you bumped the cost.
6" Torrent would be fine, though I would argue, not 30pts worthy (note the current Grey Knight Land Raider Redeemer is 240pts).
My concern with a t6 2+ 3++ is that, outside Poison, there is simply no effective weapon. High volume barely wounds it, then fails to beat its 2+. And now AP2 bounces off the things like pebbles. Perhaps if it were slow, or had only a few wounds, or didn't have any decent guns at all, or wasn't amazing in CC, it wouldn't be as big a deal. But the game already has too many too-good-at-everything models that are hard to kill. Now, you want to make one of them even harder to kill. There should be some option to hurt the thing, especially because it can't be ignored.
Is this about the Dreadknight? He's fine against your typical Marine or equivalent, but he's supposed to be awesome against Greater Daemons, and when they have Instant Death options and strike at a higher Initiative, ignoring his armor saves, he doesn't stand much of a chance.
Also, I think a Dreadknight standing there with an Sword and Shield would look cool, especially with some of the Conversions out there that make Dreadknights look like oversized Terminators.
As for Pallies and EW, EW should be very, very rare. If you fail your invuln to a Lascannon or Wraithcannon, you should go splat.
Barring Eternal Warrior, they need to be harder to Instant Kill. Kitted out with an HQ they can cost more than a Baneblade as a unit. T5 would not be uncalled for, and I personally think is a better option for them.
That said, Acess to Sanctuary - provided they can't get better than a 3++ (I know you need to add something else for that - it'd only give them a 4++) is probably fine.
Sanctuary is also easier, because it doesn't force players to kit-bash shields onto their Paladins.
Before I get started, I just want to say this to you Bill:
Learn how to break up a quote properly, instead of this "reply in red" BS, because it makes it difficult to single out your point to reply to it in a cohesive manner.
Bill1138 wrote: It's a Warp Charge 2 power that effects one unit, and only for the unit that cast the power. Did you even read the suggestion?
Not really, because the current version is fine. As has been mentioned repeatedly by a certain other person in this thread, most Daemons units have only an invulnerable save.
Bill1138 wrote: Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only special weapon the Grey Knights have to counter that. The Psycannon really needs Rending to stay, and you just calling it stupid isn't helpful or constructive.
So did you not notice how I said that Grey Knights should get a psychic melta gun to fill in for the loss of Rending Psycannons (which are still stupid)? Because I did say that Grey Knights should get a specialty melta weapon for killing heavy armor (and MCs).
Bill1138 wrote: Please actually read what I suggested before complaining about it. It only removes Daemons' Invulnerable Saves, and only for one unit for each casting AS A WARP CHARGE 2 Power. And it applies to both shooting and close combat, so that part of your complaint just doesn't reflect what I said.
WC2 isn't hard to guarantee, when you're an army like GKs that can throw Warp Charge at anything and everything. It's also the case that it's not actually a very useful power compared to the likes of Sanctuary or Cleansing Flame, or Vortex of Doom.
Bill1138 wrote: And have you encountered anyone who's actually stacked Sanctuary in a Grey Knight list for 2++? The sheer cost of the unit would be completely impractical and wouldn't leave enough points to have enough other units to claim objectives. The opponent would simply kill everything else and then stay away from the super unit. Game over, tfg with the super unit loses.
The things which get combined with that are also going to be things which can delete a unit from the board every time they fire. Like GravCents. It's hard to kill the rest of a list when it's mostly a GravStar with stacked Sanctuary and Invisibility, and said GravStar is deleting enemy units from the board every time it looks at something sideways.
Experiment 626 wrote: - You know how Marine players are constantly & vehemently complaining all the time about how there's far too much ap2/3 in the game and it makes their 3+ saves all but useless? This is doing the exact same thing to every single Daemon player.
As mentioned, I had particular reasons in mind for Psycannons going back to their old-school Daemonhunter incarnation. If you had payed attention to my amended Psycannon suggestion- which was also where I mentioned the "Psi-Melta"- then you'd have noticed that I changed it to be a case of "you can't use saves granted by psychic powers to save against Psycannons, and you must use your base save if an existing one is improved by a psychic power".
As in, Psycannons ignore 2++ re-rollable BS, but not the default 5++ that every Daemon gets.
Experiment 626 wrote: @Whiskey144: Personally I don't like the idea of a 'super meltagun' for GK's as it just seems to step too much on the toes of the Sisters identity...
Instead, what about something like;
- Psy-Lance - S8/ap2/Lance/*Psychic bane Heavy 1
*a weapon with this rule may re-roll failed to-wound rolls and armour penetration rolls against models with 'Daemon' and/or 'Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers' rule.
This gives the Knights a generic anti-tank weapon - perhaps keep it to a 24" range, or else take the 18"/Assault 1?
It of course gets slightly better vs. the GK's traditional foes, yet is not on the same levels of outright crap like the previous codex's issues with unfairly picking on Daemons & Psykers in general.
And this way, the door is open for the Sisters to get the super blessed melta weaponry.
The Sisters thing isn't "blessed Meltas", it's massed meltas. The Grey Knights getting a 'better', more expensive meltagun allows Psycannons to lose Rending, while also opening up a better way to deal with heavy armor or MCs for the GKs, when they can't get into combat (it happens, since 7th is a shooting edition after all).
Oh, and by "more expensive", I mean that said "Psi-Melta" would cost, at minimum, 15 points- probably more like 20 points given that it's 18"/Assault and has Force to boot.
The Sisters' whole "bolter/flamer/melta" 'holy trinity' shtick/identity is that they bring it in spades, and that it's all that they really bring (for better or worse).
The Grey Knights have "holier"/"blessed" versions of a weapon makes more sense than the Sisters, since the GKs rely very heavily on having super-holy/-blessed armaments to kill daemons. I'd also like to point out that "Heavy" and "24 inch range" don't really go well together. Multimeltas generally work because you can put them onto some kind of vehicle that can get into range easily (Pod'Naughts, Speeders), or because it's a 'deterrent' gun that says "this is a death zone to all things AV". There are some armies- like Sisters- who rely almost entirely on MMs (or regular Meltaguns on something fast/Outflank-y), but they're by far the exception rather than the rule.
I'd also like to point out that the proposed profile- I'll reproduce here, in case you forgot (or didn't pay much attention)- also included the "Force" trait, rather than some value that's (paradoxically) tailored against Daemons/Psykers... which your "Psychic Bane" rule is.
Psi-Melta 18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force
I'll also point out that the Imperium does not actually possess any "Lance" weapons- that's really more of an Eldar/DE thing. Moreover, Psi-Meltas should have some kind of quality to distinguish them from regular meltaguns besides "more range"- hence Force, which also helps with killing 2+ armor MCs- which, incidentally, exist only in the Tau and Grey Knight (!) armies!
Bill1138 wrote: Many thanks to the people who offered useful alternatives without feeling the need to call my suggestions “stupid” or “silly” in the process.
I'm sorry your feelings got hurt, but nobody cares because this is the Internet.
Also, I don't like people very much anyways, so don't feel bad about it- I'm like that to everybody in real life!
Bill1138 wrote: The rules they already have that best qualify as Chapter Tactics for the Grey Knights are:
Chapter Tactics The Aegis
Prefered Enemy (Daemons)
Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit
I would just like to point out that "Chapter Tactics JUST BECAUSE" is not a good excuse for army-wide ML1. Nobody gets that for free, and Grey Knights should not be the exception, because otherwise they will prove why it's a bad idea.
However, I am not opposed to a discounted ML1, as part of the "Chapter Tactic".
Bill1138 wrote: Daemonology (Sanctic): I would replace the #4 power (Purge Soul) with a Blessing that improves shooting much like how Hammerhand improves Melee.
4. Psybolts…………………..Warp Charge 1
The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential.
Psybolt is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the Psyker’s unit’s shooting attacks gain +1 Strength.
Slight adjustments to which powers each unit starts out with would help diversify the units. So designated shooting units would have Psybolts, while designated close-combat would have Hammerhand, while both would have the Primaris as usual.
No. Psychic powers that provide +1 Strength to all shooting would be horrendously broken. I'll just let you think over exactly what happens when Psycannons become Strength 8 (!).
Bill1138 wrote: Special Weapons: I’d like to see Salvo fixed as much as anyone else, but my suggestions here do not include an assumption of Salvo receiving any change.
Psilencer: Range 36”, S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Force
Psycannon: Range 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending
The 36” range on both special weapons makes the half range for moving a useful 18”, so that they can be used on PAGK without being a liability. Now, a unit consisting of up to 9 models typically has access to one special weapon, and using the maximum range of this weapon would mean that the rest of the unit can not shoot, being as their Storm Bolters only have a 24” range.
The Psilencer gaining Salvo 4/6 is because as a Heavy 6 weapon, if the model moves, the Psilencer is objectively worse at causing wounds than the standard Storm Bolter. Thus it is now usable by units other than static gunlines..
I am disappoint son. The Psilencer change I can get behind... in part because it was my idea originally. The Psycannon change is dumb, because Psycannons staying as Rending is dumb. As I demonstrated above, Psycannons currently obsolete Psilencers in every possible way, and truthfully I don't see that changing- literally there is only one target type that Psilencers are better against, and that's Toughness 4 multi-wound infantry, who happen to have moderate-to-mediocre saves (4+ equivalent or worse).
Psycannons, quite frankly, need a thorough nerf and rebuild into a particular role... one where Rending is not necessary. This will require the introduction of a special weapon that is dedicated to anti-armor usage. That is okay, we can drum up something, I'm sure.
Bill1138 wrote: The rest of both profiles are left the same. Psycannons and Psilencers would become popular on shooty units like Purgation Squads while the Incinerator would still be the better option for units that intend to get into close combat.
And Rending needs to stay on the Psycannon. Chaos Daemons have AV13 units, and the Psycannon is the only Special weapon the Grey Knights have that can harm that.
Psycannons being the only special that can harm AV13+ is the problem. Dropping Rending in exchange for getting a psychic meltagun would be a better deal- Melta weapons, being both high strength, AP1, and potentially armorbane, make far better anti-vehicle weapons than S7+Rending does.
You completely ignore the possibility of introducing a dedicated anti-vehicle/-MC special weapon, which removes the need for Rending Psycannons (because it was stupid when Ward introduced, and it still is).
270pts – Land Raider Redeemer: Add Torrent to Flamestorm Cannon Profile
The Land Raider Redeemers from other codexes would get the same treatment.
There's a simpler solution. It's called "Heavy Incinerators". As in, "give 'Deemers the option to swap Flamestorms to Heavy Incinerators". There are potential issues with Flamestorms gaining Torrent; if the issue is that the GK 'Deemers aren't up to par, then the simpler solution is to allow them to swap their Flamestorms for Heavy Incinerators- boom, you now have Torrent. Oh, and Soul Blaze (as useful as that is...).
Changing Flamestorms has more ripple effects than "GK 'Deemers are better". It's also worth noting that Land Raiders as they stand are quite heavily overpriced- making a 'Deemer a whopping 270 points is just going to make matters worse.
Bill1138 wrote: Instead of putting that cap on Sanctuary, I believe it would be more fair to put that 3++ Cap across the entire game, just as an Armor or Cover Save can't be improved above 2+.
What about those wargear items that confer a native 2++? Off the top of my head, I'll admit to only recalling two- the DE Shadowfield (2++ until you fail, then the item is "broken", and may not be used for the rest of the game*) and the vanilla SM Armor Indomitus (2++ once per game).
*Since DE are T3, it's less likely that that effect will come into play as the owning model will most likely be dead.
SGTPozy wrote: Filch is now being rude to Whiskey144 as he's calling him out!
Can we get a Moderator over here please?
Dudes, stop trolling to get the thread closed. If it isn't on topic, it doesn't need said.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To get this train back on track, my most recent suggestion involves fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon to bring the Grey Knights back into the shooting phase.
Psilencer: 36", S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force
Psycannon: 36", S7, AP-, Salvo 2/4, Armorbane
Both are good against infantry, but the Psilencer is also good against Monstrous Creatures, while the Psycannon is good against vehicles, and neither is particularly good against the other's specialty.
Salvo for the Psilencer is because the current Heavy 6 is worthless.
36" range on both makes their half range a usable 18", while the maximum range sacrifices the rest of the unit's shooting as they have only a 24" range.
Fleshbane on the Psilencer is because all enemy units get their saves against it, so it needs most of its shots to wound to have more than a laughable chance of any of them being unsaved.
Armorbane on the S7, AP4 Psycannon gives the Psycannon a fair chance at damaging AV13 like Soulgrinders. And being AP4 without Rending means it can't cause explosions, so the 2 or 4 shots are justified.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To get this train back on track, my most recent suggestion involves fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon to bring the Grey Knights back into the shooting phase.
Psilencer: 36", S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force
Psycannon: 36", S7, AP-, Salvo 2/4, Armorbane
Both are good against infantry, but the Psilencer is also good against Monstrous Creatures, while the Psycannon is good against vehicles, and neither is particularly good against the other's specialty.
Salvo for the Psilencer is because the current Heavy 6 is worthless.
36" range on both makes their half range a usable 18", while the maximum range sacrifices the rest of the unit's shooting as they have only a 24" range.
Fleshbane on the Psilencer is because all enemy units get their saves against it, so it needs most of its shots to wound to have more than a laughable chance of any of them being unsaved.
No way to Fleshbane + Force. You're effectively at this point removing every single T4/T5 non-2+ save unit from the game. Anything that has a solid chance at nuking a Riptide or Wraithknight in one go is going to be ridiculously OP vs. everything that's below that level... How does essentially removing the likes of half the Daemon codex, 'Nid Warriors/Raveners, Wraiths, Ogryns/Bullgryns, Nobz/Biker Nobz, Flashgits, etc... really improve the game?
If you want Fleshbane, then Force has to go. Otherwise, simply upping the range to 36" and swaping Heavy 6 for Salvo 4/6 is more than enough of a boost to the current incarnation of the Psilencer.
Its purpose is not to reliably one-shot the most powerful MC's in the game. It's supposed to be a way to effectively counter multi-wound T4/5 units that don't sport high saves, of which almost every non-Marine book has at least one or two such units.
Bill1138 wrote: Armorbane on the S7, AP4 Psycannon gives the Psycannon a fair chance at damaging AV13 like Soulgrinders. And being AP4 without Rending means it can't cause explosions, so the 2 or 4 shots are justified.
I wouldn't bother with Armourbane... it would just make it way too good at HP'ing all vehicles in general to death at that point. (not to mention add a heinous amount of added dice rolling to work out these effects!)
Besides, you have an excellent answer already to those supposedly problematic Soul Grinders in Dreadknights. Outside of the dice really favouring the Daemon player, a Dreadknight will routinely smoke a Soul Grinder that hasn't been given at least a couple of augments. (or is under the effects of Invis, but no Daemon player in their right mind will throw that on a Grinder unless it's their absolute last unit, at which point, you've probably won anyways!)
The DK has higher WS & I, can fight at S10, can boost it's own invuln to 4++ quite easily, and is much faster than the Grinder to begin with, allowing it to get the charge off. (even against Slaany Grinders, you're still slightly faster, and 9/10 Grinders will be likely be Nurgle or Tzeentch anyways.)
Lose the Rending, and instead look at something like say Shred, and/or the idea of giving it the ability to inflict -1 to invulns. (or even the idea of it bypassing all augments to any invulnerable save, essentially meaning Daemons can only ever at best get their basic 5++ vs. Psycannon shots)
Alpharius wrote: One of the conditions of posting on Dakka Dakka is agreeing to abide by the rules of the site.
One of these - arguably the most important one - is Rule #1.
Politeness at all times is mandatory.
As noted above, and in addition, Rule #2 of Dakka is: Stay On Topic!
As this is the second in-thread warning, further rude or off-topic posts will result in a short suspension from the site, so please, if you can't post politely and on-topic, just don't post... thanks.
Experiment 626 wrote: No way to Fleshbane + Force. You're effectively at this point removing every single T4/T5 non-2+ save unit from the game. Anything that has a solid chance at nuking a Riptide or Wraithknight in one go is going to be ridiculously OP vs. everything that's below that level... How does essentially removing the likes of half the Daemon codex, 'Nid Warriors/Raveners, Wraiths, Ogryns/Bullgryns, Nobz/Biker Nobz, Flashgits, etc... really improve the game?
If you want Fleshbane, then Force has to go. Otherwise, simply upping the range to 36" and swaping Heavy 6 for Salvo 4/6 is more than enough of a boost to the current incarnation of the Psilencer.
Its purpose is not to reliably one-shot the most powerful MC's in the game. It's supposed to be a way to effectively counter multi-wound T4/5 units that don't sport high saves, of which almost every non-Marine book has at least one or two such units.
While I agree that Fleshbane is a terrible idea for Psilencers if they retain Force, I would also like to point out that a fair number of the models you've listed off are already fairly rare on the table anyway. That's not to say that it's perfectly okay to break Psilencers into megadeath overpowered status because the things that will piss themselves in fear about one won't even be on the table- merely to point out that multi-wound T4 models already suffer from a number of meta-related issues, many of which stem from the core mechanics. It's also worth noting that:
-Wraiths do not care about Psilencers, as the likelihood of pushing wounds onto T5/3++ Wraiths is very low
-Ogryns and Bullgryns are in a similar boat, though Ogryn less so on account of being only 5+ armor
Anything that's T3 and multi-wound is going to be way more afraid of a Psycannon being pointed their way, since the Psycannon has infinitely better AP, superior Strength (IE, more reliable wounding), and Rending, making it far more dangerous- and reliable.
IMO Psilencers seem to have two primary roles that were originally envisioned for them:
1) Act as ranged anti-horde infantry
2) Act as a counter to multi-wound T4- and only T4, it would seem- infantry
The problem is that it doesn't do either job very well- the Psycannon will, at worst, equal a Psilencer in performance (more likely is that the Psycannon will be better than the Psilencer) against T3 infantry, while completely obsoleting the Psilencer as a weapon against T4+ models. The performance difference really is that big.
Psilencers are only passably good at killing T4 multi-wound, to the point that it's not viable- at present- to take a Psilencer for that purpose, when a Psycannon can diversify so much.
Of course, Psycannons being made the GK "god gun" to do everything was a terrible idea that has only made the Psilencer's problems worse.
Experiment 626 wrote: I wouldn't bother with Armourbane... it would just make it way too good at HP'ing all vehicles in general to death at that point. (not to mention add a heinous amount of added dice rolling to work out these effects!)
Besides, you have an excellent answer already to those supposedly problematic Soul Grinders in Dreadknights. Outside of the dice really favouring the Daemon player, a Dreadknight will routinely smoke a Soul Grinder that hasn't been given at least a couple of augments. (or is under the effects of Invis, but no Daemon player in their right mind will throw that on a Grinder unless it's their absolute last unit, at which point, you've probably won anyways!)
The DK has higher WS & I, can fight at S10, can boost it's own invuln to 4++ quite easily, and is much faster than the Grinder to begin with, allowing it to get the charge off. (even against Slaany Grinders, you're still slightly faster, and 9/10 Grinders will be likely be Nurgle or Tzeentch anyways.)
Lose the Rending, and instead look at something like say Shred, and/or the idea of giving it the ability to inflict -1 to invulns. (or even the idea of it bypassing all augments to any invulnerable save, essentially meaning Daemons can only ever at best get their basic 5++ vs. Psycannon shots)
It's really important to remember that the GK's "most effective" answers to AV13+ are either:
1) Psycannons, due to Rending+weight of fire
2) Getting into combat
As a Daemons player, I'm sure you'll admit that getting into combat is simply not a good answer- yes, it will work.... if you get there. And that's really the kicker. The Grey Knights don't really have assault units that are considered good compared to, say, TWC or Wraiths- there is the Dreadknight, yes- but DKs are expensive and also want to get right into the sweet spot of at least half, if not 75%+ of the AP2/AP1 weapons in the game. Not only that, but the only other "fast" assault unit available to the GKs is the Interceptor Squad.
Yeah, 24 ppm for a T4/3+/1W mang with Jump Infantry status. He comes with a Force weapon, Stormbolter, Frag/Krak/Psyk-out 'nades, and the personal teleporter that gives him Jump status. And he can admittedly make a 30" shunt move once per game... so he could assault something- oh wait, he can't assault after a shunt move. So he can shunt 30", and unless you can shunt/DS in other things with it they'll likely either be shot to death or never get to charge something important, being tied up and bogged down by some tarpit for the rest of the game.
So I'm not impressed with GK options for using assault as an anti-vehicle option- remember, Soul Grinders aren't the only thing around, there's also Land Raiders, Monoliths, Leman Russes, the myriad other AV12/13 front armor vehicles that also tend to have guns with a 36"+ range. Realistically speaking, GKs just need a dedicated anti-vehicle/-MC weapon (IMO, it should be a mid-range style melta weapon).
I do certainly agree that Psycannons shouldn't be Armorbane, but due to the amount of screeching that I often hear when I suggest "hey guys, what if Psycannons didn't have Rending?" has gotten to the point that I gave up on removing it, and instead am recommending that Psycannons become S6 instead of 7, and Salvo 2/3 rather than 2/4. Due to terrible Salvo rules, Psycannons should be kicked up to 30-36", so that non-Relentless infantry (who are technically the most common user of Psycannons, based purely on who exactly can take one, and in what numbers) are actually able to leverage Psycannons when moving around.
I'd also be totally cool with Psycannons or Psilencers getting some kind of "oh, your invuln is not so good anymore" ability.
As an aside, DE Wych Cult units, with one exception (Hesperax) only get their invulns in combat.... though they should totally get that invuln against Overwatch fire too, since that'd be a huge buff to their durability in combat.
Fine. No Armorbane for the Psycannon. The rest of the proposal is perfectly valid.
Psilencer: 36” S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force
Force: If the Grey Knights use 2 Warp Dice to cast Force, and the opponent does the same:
50% chance of 1 harnessed Warp Charge, and a 25% chance of 2.
30.5% chance of denying at least 1 Warp Charge, 2.8% chance of denying 2.
34.75% chance of being successfully cast with 1 Warp Charge, 24.3% chance of being successfully cast with 2 Warp Charges.
That’s a 59% chance of successfully being cast.
To-Hit: Grey Knights hit on a 3+ with their BS4. This is a 2/3 chance to Hit.
To-Wound: With Fleshbane, the Psilencer would wound on a 2+. This is a 5/6 chance to Wound.
Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.
So, the statistical number of wounds caused by a stationary Psilencer is calculated (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=60/54 = 1.11 Wounds.
Once you figure in the odds of successfully casting Force, that brings it down to 0.66 Instant Death Wounds.
The Statistical number of wounds caused by a mobile Psilencer is calculated (4)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=40/54 = 0.74 Wounds
Once you figure in the odds of successfully casting Force, that brings it down to 0.44 Instant Death Wounds.
The same unit firing a Lascannon would have a chance calculated (1)(2/3)(5/6)(1/1)=10/18
= 0.55 Wounds which are Instant Death against models up to T4. The Difference being that the Lascannon is also very good at destroying vehicles, while the Psycannon is incapable of even glancing better than AV10.
The Lascannon also has a 48” range whereas the proposed Psilencer has 18/36” range.
The Psilencer is NOT overpowered with Fleshbane and Force. Force is useless on the weapon without Fleshbane, and the weapon is pointless without Force.
Armor Penn: A roll of 6 is made a Penetrating hit because of Rending 1/6 Penetrating Hits
Save: 2/3 failed Invulnerable Saves
So statistically the damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Psycannon is (4)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 16/54
= 0.30 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.05 Explosions.
The Statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a mobile Psycannon is (2)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 8/54
= 0.15 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.025 Explosions.
The same unit firing a Lascannon would have a chance calculated to (1)(2/3)(1/2)(2/3) = 4/18
= 0.22 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.04 Explosions.
This proposed Psilencer and Psycannon have comparable damage potential to the Lascannon for their relative specialties. However, Whereas the Space Marines are giving up only a bolter along with the point cost of the Lascannon, the Grey Knights give up a Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter on top of the point costs. This needs to be factored in when determining the appropriate prices for these units.
The Lascannon costs 20pts. The difference between a Bolter and Storm Bolter is worth at least a few points, and the Nemesis Force Sword is worth at least a few more. And the Psilencer isn't able to damage vehicles above AV10 at all, so that should be a bit more of a discount.
So, with these new profiles the prices on the Psilencer and Psycannon need to stay exactly where they are.
Bill1138 wrote: Fine. No Armorbane for the Psycannon. The rest of the proposal is perfectly valid.
[...]
Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.
[Emphasis mine]
I want to just pull this part out, but this isn't actually true.
In fact, off the top of my head I can think of only two multi-wound models with a 3+ save of any kind- Tau Crisis Suits, IG Bullgryns, and Necron Wraiths. Other saves, OTOH...
And that's just off the top of my head! I'm sure that there's a few more that I'm forgetting. For giggles, I decided to also throw in multi-wound 2+ save models:
Spoiler:
SM Centurions (T5)
Ork Mega Armor Nobz (T4)
GK Paladins (T4)
Tau Broadsides (T4)
I mean, I can literally think of around twice as many 2+ save multi-wound models than I can think of 3+ save examples, and I just dredged up around 5 or 6 times as many 4+ or poorer examples.
The simple answer is that if Psilencers get Fleshbane, then it should have two "modes"- one with Force, and one with Fleshbane... but not one with both.
Bill1138 wrote: The Psilencer is NOT overpowered with Fleshbane and Force. Force is useless on the weapon without Fleshbane, and the weapon is pointless without Force.
I rather disagree- if it keeps Force, then IMO all it needs is S5- that makes it more reliable against T4 multi-wound, and viable for engaging T5 multi-wound. Even then there are still some people who have completely lost it over that.
Bill1138 wrote: This proposed Psilencer and Psycannon have comparable damage potential to the Lascannon for their relative specialties. However, Whereas the Space Marines are giving up only a bolter along with the point cost of the Lascannon, the Grey Knights give up a Nemesis Force Sword, Storm Bolter on top of the point costs. This needs to be factored in when determining the appropriate prices for these units.
The Lascannon costs 20pts. The difference between a Bolter and Storm Bolter is worth at least a few points, and the Nemesis Force Sword is worth at least a few more. And the Psilencer isn't able to damage vehicles above AV10 at all, so that should be a bit more of a discount.
So, with these new profiles the prices on the Psilencer and Psycannon need to stay exactly where they are.
I'd like to point out that you still haven't considered this idea:
Psychic Melta Powers Go!
Spoiler:
Psi-Melta 18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force
That seems like a really good option for an anti-vehicle and anti-MC weapon, don't you think?
Incidentally, what would everyone think about the following changes to Strike Squads;
-Strike Squad Justicars may take Teleport Homers
-Strike Squads gain the Scout USR
This would allow you to scout-move a little bit forward to get an accurate DS. Perhaps combined with a transport of some kind, and you could use it to accurately DS in some melta to deal with vehicles- especially with the addition of the aforementioned new GK-specific melta weapon.
Whiskey144 wrote: I'd like to point out that you still haven't considered this idea:
Psychic Melta Powers Go!
Spoiler:
Psi-Melta 18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force
That seems like a really good option for an anti-vehicle and anti-MC weapon, don't you think?
Incidentally, what would everyone think about the following changes to Strike Squads;
-Strike Squad Justicars may take Teleport Homers
-Strike Squads gain the Scout USR
This would allow you to scout-move a little bit forward to get an accurate DS. Perhaps combined with a transport of some kind, and you could use it to accurately DS in some melta to deal with vehicles- especially with the addition of the aforementioned new GK-specific melta weapon.
On both of these points I don't believe we will will come to an agreement.
7th Edition is all about the shooting phase, and the Grey Knights are hurting because they don't have any cost-effective options with better than a 24" range.
I don't care for your "better melta" suggestion because it has only an 18" range for an army with a practical max of 24". Also, your proposed new gun only benefits from melta within 9". Short of Shunting or Deep Striking dangerously close to enemy vehicles, that's not going to be useful for the Grey Knights. It also bears the problem that it is a new weapon to replace the Psycannon instead of fixing it. Here's my math on the topic.
If we compare my suggested Psycannon, a Lascannon, and your proposed "better melta" against a Soulgrinder:
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Psycannon is (4)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 16/54
= 0.30 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.049 Explosions.
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a mobile Psycannon is (2)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 8/54
= 0.15 unsaved Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.025 Explosions.
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Lascannon is (1)(2/3)(1/2)(2/3) = 4/18
= 0.22 unsaved Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.037 Explosions.
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by your better melta past 9" is (1)2/3)(1/3)(2/3) = 4/27
= 0.074 unsaved glancing hits, + 0.074 unsaved penetrating hits, with a 1/3 chance of an explode result, resulting in 0.0247 Explosions.
Outside of spitting distance, the the Psycannon I proposed is better at destroying vehicles than your proposed better-melta.
The Grey Knights need good firepower with decent range, and your melta suggestion doesn't offer that.
And I showed you my math for the Psilencer with Fleshbane and Force, and that it is not more powerful than other weapons that already exist and are available to the other Imperial factions' infantry. It seems to me that you reject the suggestion out of hand with your reasoning having nothing to do with the balance of firepower. Even with Fleshbane and Force, it is a hair better at anti-hoard than a Lascannon, and that isn't saying much. It only shines if it has a non-laughable chance at killing high toughness Monstrous Creatures.
As for Scout, the problem is that Deep Striking a few inches outside of their deployment zone is not useful to the Grey Knights. It leaves them in the middle of no-man's land where they have to trudge through enemy fire to get to anything. The purpose of Deep Strike is to get units to places they either couldn't get to otherwise or where they need to get to more quickly than they could by going by ground. Deep Striking on Scout units does neither of these things.
I maintain, that the Grey Knights should have access to an Infiltrate unit, but the next best thing would be Rites of Teleportation that only scatters 1d6 (I suggested making this a Special Rule for the Strike Squads). I believe Scout is useless for the Grey Knights.
How could anyone view fleshbane AND force with 6 shots as balanced?
That would make it the most OP gun in the game! Anyone would think that people just want to return to the Ward Dex's level of cheese.
SGTPozy wrote: How could anyone view fleshbane AND force with 6 shots as balanced?
That would make it the most OP gun in the game! Anyone would think that people just want to return to the Ward Dex's level of cheese.
That's an impressive rebuttal of the math lined out above. Truly you are a master of arguments.
Bill1138 wrote: Fine. No Armorbane for the Psycannon. The rest of the proposal is perfectly valid.
[...]
Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.
[Emphasis mine]
I want to just pull this part out, but this isn't actually true.
In fact, off the top of my head I can think of only two multi-wound models with a 3+ save of any kind- Tau Crisis Suits, IG Bullgryns, and Necron Wraiths. Other saves, OTOH...
And that's just off the top of my head! I'm sure that there's a few more that I'm forgetting. For giggles, I decided to also throw in multi-wound 2+ save models:
Spoiler:
SM Centurions (T5)
Ork Mega Armor Nobz (T4)
GK Paladins (T4)
Tau Broadsides (T4)
I mean, I can literally think of around twice as many 2+ save multi-wound models than I can think of 3+ save examples, and I just dredged up around 5 or 6 times as many 4+ or poorer examples.
The simple answer is that if Psilencers get Fleshbane, then it should have two "modes"- one with Force, and one with Fleshbane... but not one with both.
Bullgryns are a 4+ save base. They can only gain 3+ if they take the worse option of Slab Shield + Grenadier Gauntlet and then put everyone into base-to-base contact with another member of the squad, ala Deathwing Knights and their +1T gimmick.
9/10 times however, Bullgryns will go for Brute Shields (5++ save) and Power Mauls and thus be relying heavily on their 4+ armour save.
You also forgot the likes of;
Chaos Spawn (T5 - no save at all!)
Daemon Prince (T5 - 5++, must buy the 3+ save)
Flamers (T4)
Screamers (T4)
Beasts of Nurgle (T5)
Plaguedrones (T5)
Flesh Hounds (T4)
Flash Gits (T4/4+)
And I'm probably still forgetting at least one or two more! Fleshbane + Force would be utter broken gak. Every single T4/multi-wound non-2+ save model is already mediocre at best due to the proliferation of S8+ shooting.
A ranged Force weapon that always wounds on a 2+ is literally outright removing these types of units from the game.
Not to mention that as you'd almost certainly double-up on these versions in a squad, that means 12 shots going into a target. That would be enough weight of fire to pretty much delete any non-2+ unit, while also being able to wipe a good chunk of any 3+ save unit.
MC's would pretty much be relegated to only the better flying versions, as anything on the ground will be auto-killed by a pair of Fleshbane, Force Psilencers.
Add prescience and pretty much nothing in the game that's not a vehicle or gargantuan creature is likely to survive a pair of these obnoxious guns outside of favourable dice.
Congrats Bill1138, you've just removed 2 entire types of models from ever seeing the table top!
Plus, let's be realistic about this, if you're going to activate Force on your new "delete anything not a vehicle button" Psilencers, you're going to use 3 Dice to make denial either nearly impossible, or else force your opponent to likely be throwing all their dispel dice at this one power.
Maybe Daemons can attempt to deny 2 such castings, but overall, it's just plain game breaking what Fleshbane + Force activated Psilencers would do to the game in general.
If you honestly can't see how this would not be insanely broken, then clearly you're not even trying to be objective about balance and just want your easy-mode GK's back.
Bill1138 wrote: The Psilencer is NOT overpowered with Fleshbane and Force. Force is useless on the weapon without Fleshbane, and the weapon is pointless without Force.
I rather disagree- if it keeps Force, then IMO all it needs is S5- that makes it more reliable against T4 multi-wound, and viable for engaging T5 multi-wound. Even then there are still some people who have completely lost it over that.
I'd like to point out that you still haven't considered this idea:
Psychic Melta Powers Go!
Spoiler:
Psi-Melta 18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force
That seems like a really good option for an anti-vehicle and anti-MC weapon, don't you think?
Incidentally, what would everyone think about the following changes to Strike Squads;
-Strike Squad Justicars may take Teleport Homers
-Strike Squads gain the Scout USR
This would allow you to scout-move a little bit forward to get an accurate DS. Perhaps combined with a transport of some kind, and you could use it to accurately DS in some melta to deal with vehicles- especially with the addition of the aforementioned new GK-specific melta weapon.
S5 Psilencers would still be too much of a kick in the nads to every T4 non-2+ save multi-wound unit. Daemons would be less effected due to our ability to get multiple ways to augment our invulns, but overall, it's still too much to have a 36" range S5 instant kill weapon...
Keep in mind, all these units are already suffering due to the mass proliferation of S8+ in the game. The only really troublesome spot right now with these units are;
- Wraiths gaining a boost when it wasn't needed, then gaining an even bigger one when taken in their Decurion formation. (Fix the issues within codex Necrons)
- Daemons of Tzeentch and their re-rolled 2++ shenanigans. (Fix the issues within codex Daemons by limiting our invulns to 3++ at best, ala MoT in CSM's.)
- Centstar (play Maelstrom missions that make slow-@$$ deathstars and gunlines a complete liability!)
- Draigo Centstar (hmmmmm... okay, this one really sucks admittedly, as Draigo bring guaranteed GoI...)
If we want 36"/S5 Psilencers, then Force would need to go, and instead give them something else to make up for it, such as perhaps Shred.
Likewise I think a mobile Psi-Melta with a 24" engagement range is a bit too much. Again, odds are if you're taking one in a unit, you'll take two for redundancy. Interceptors would be insane with these things! T1, shunt into range of the biggest, nastiest MC the enemy has, pop off Force, nuke.
MC's, especially FMC's have taken enough kicks in 7th from their utter domination in 6th.
Besides, GK's don't need to be super efficient vs. high AV targets to be a viable army... Daemons are likewise equally poop vs. vehicles at range - in fact, we're much worse off than GK's in this regard!
We still do fine however with using our speed to get in close and hit things though. Only Serpent Spam and Imperial Knights give us fits, and the former is simply a case of fixing the offending model within its own codex. (nuke the damn shield rules please!)
If GW isn't going to give us Grey Knight Jetbikes, (shame on them!), then Land Speeders would be a better fit than a Force Melta. Still addresses the need, but doesn't present a highly obnoxious hard-counter to an entire subset of units.
Bill1138 wrote: Fine. No Armorbane for the Psycannon. The rest of the proposal is perfectly valid.
[...]
Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.
[Emphasis mine]
I want to just pull this part out, but this isn't actually true.
In fact, off the top of my head I can think of only two multi-wound models with a 3+ save of any kind- Tau Crisis Suits, IG Bullgryns, and Necron Wraiths. Other saves, OTOH...
4+/5+ Tyranid Warriors (4+)
Tyranid Shrikes (5+)
Tyranid Raveners (4+)
Ogryns (5+)
Ork Nobz (6+)
Ork Nobz with 'Eavy Armor (4+)
Nob Bikers (4+, IIRC)
Daemons Bloodcrushers (5++)
Daemons Fiends of Slaanesh (5++)
And that's just off the top of my head! I'm sure that there's a few more that I'm forgetting. For giggles, I decided to also throw in multi-wound 2+ save models:
SM Centurions (T5)
Ork Mega Armor Nobz (T4)
GK Paladins (T4)
Tau Broadsides (T4)
I mean, I can literally think of around twice as many 2+ save multi-wound models than I can think of 3+ save examples, and I just dredged up around 5 or 6 times as many 4+ or poorer examples.
The simple answer is that if Psilencers get Fleshbane, then it should have two "modes"- one with Force, and one with Fleshbane... but not one with both.
Bullgryns are a 4+ save base. They can only gain 3+ if they take the worse option of Slab Shield + Grenadier Gauntlet and then put everyone into base-to-base contact with another member of the squad, ala Deathwing Knights and their +1T gimmick.
9/10 times however, Bullgryns will go for Brute Shields (5++ save) and Power Mauls and thus be relying heavily on their 4+ armour save.
You also forgot the likes of;
Chaos Spawn (T5 - no save at all!)
Daemon Prince (T5 - 5++, must buy the 3+ save)
Flamers (T4)
Screamers (T4)
Beasts of Nurgle (T5)
Plaguedrones (T5)
Flesh Hounds (T4)
Flash Gits (T4/4+)
And I'm probably still forgetting at least one or two more! Fleshbane + Force would be utter broken gak. Every single T4/multi-wound non-2+ save model is already mediocre at best due to the proliferation of S8+ shooting.
A ranged Force weapon that always wounds on a 2+ is literally outright removing these types of units from the game.
Not to mention that as you'd almost certainly double-up on these versions in a squad, that means 12 shots going into a target. That would be enough weight of fire to pretty much delete any non-2+ unit, while also being able to wipe a good chunk of any 3+ save unit.
MC's would pretty much be relegated to only the better flying versions, as anything on the ground will be auto-killed by a pair of Fleshbane, Force Psilencers.
Add prescience and pretty much nothing in the game that's not a vehicle or gargantuan creature is likely to survive a pair of these obnoxious guns outside of favourable dice.
Congrats Bill1138, you've just removed 2 entire types of models from ever seeing the table top!
Plus, let's be realistic about this, if you're going to activate Force on your new "delete anything not a vehicle button" Psilencers, you're going to use 3 Dice to make denial either nearly impossible, or else force your opponent to likely be throwing all their dispel dice at this one power.
Maybe Daemons can attempt to deny 2 such castings, but overall, it's just plain game breaking what Fleshbane + Force activated Psilencers would do to the game in general.
If you honestly can't see how this would not be insanely broken, then clearly you're not even trying to be objective about balance and just want your easy-mode GK's back.
Bill1138 wrote: The Psilencer is NOT overpowered with Fleshbane and Force. Force is useless on the weapon without Fleshbane, and the weapon is pointless without Force.
I rather disagree- if it keeps Force, then IMO all it needs is S5- that makes it more reliable against T4 multi-wound, and viable for engaging T5 multi-wound. Even then there are still some people who have completely lost it over that.
I'd like to point out that you still haven't considered this idea:
Psychic Melta Powers Go! Psi-Melta 18" Assault 1 S8 AP1 Melta, Force
That seems like a really good option for an anti-vehicle and anti-MC weapon, don't you think?
Incidentally, what would everyone think about the following changes to Strike Squads;
-Strike Squad Justicars may take Teleport Homers
-Strike Squads gain the Scout USR
This would allow you to scout-move a little bit forward to get an accurate DS. Perhaps combined with a transport of some kind, and you could use it to accurately DS in some melta to deal with vehicles- especially with the addition of the aforementioned new GK-specific melta weapon.
S5 Psilencers would still be too much of a kick in the nads to every T4 non-2+ save multi-wound unit. Daemons would be less effected due to our ability to get multiple ways to augment our invulns, but overall, it's still too much to have a 36" range S5 instant kill weapon...
Keep in mind, all these units are already suffering due to the mass proliferation of S8+ in the game. The only really troublesome spot right now with these units are;
- Wraiths gaining a boost when it wasn't needed, then gaining an even bigger one when taken in their Decurion formation. (Fix the issues within codex Necrons)
- Daemons of Tzeentch and their re-rolled 2++ shenanigans. (Fix the issues within codex Daemons by limiting our invulns to 3++ at best, ala MoT in CSM's.)
- Centstar (play Maelstrom missions that make slow-@$$ deathstars and gunlines a complete liability!)
- Draigo Centstar (hmmmmm... okay, this one really sucks admittedly, as Draigo bring guaranteed GoI...)
If we want 36"/S5 Psilencers, then Force would need to go, and instead give them something else to make up for it, such as perhaps Shred.
Likewise I think a mobile Psi-Melta with a 24" engagement range is a bit too much. Again, odds are if you're taking one in a unit, you'll take two for redundancy. Interceptors would be insane with these things! T1, shunt into range of the biggest, nastiest MC the enemy has, pop off Force, nuke.
MC's, especially FMC's have taken enough kicks in 7th from their utter domination in 6th.
Besides, GK's don't need to be super efficient vs. high AV targets to be a viable army... Daemons are likewise equally poop vs. vehicles at range - in fact, we're much worse off than GK's in this regard!
We still do fine however with using our speed to get in close and hit things though. Only Serpent Spam and Imperial Knights give us fits, and the former is simply a case of fixing the offending model within its own codex. (nuke the damn shield rules please!)
If GW isn't going to give us Grey Knight Jetbikes, (shame on them!), then Land Speeders would be a better fit than a Force Melta. Still addresses the need, but doesn't present a highly obnoxious hard-counter to an entire subset of units.
I have not yet encountered a Daemonprince that didn't purchase the 3+ save. And recognising that my perception of 3+ being the average could be off I gave my calculations so others could check my math, and provide the stats for whatever target unit they believe would be a better example. Besides, I was thinking along the lines of Monstrous Creatures, not cheap hoard units.
You're making the keeping of a respectful tone very difficult. I showed you the math that proves that the Psilencer is no more powerful than other comon weapons in the game, and that the price is comparable for similarly powered weapons. Your insistence that it is broken, or a point-delete weapon is 100% unfounded, and evidenced by you not providing the math to support your argument.
What are you saying is the "typical" multi-wound model"? I'm certain that the Psilencer doesn't become overpowered or broken regardless of the enemy. You seemed to show several Daemons with 5++ saves and split between T4 & 5. If I show you the math for these types of units will you actually look at it from a logical perspective?
So, if we go with a T4, 5+ save enemy...
Grey Knights have BS4, hitting on a 3+, which gives them a 2/3 chance To-Hit
If the Psilencer is stationary, it gets 6 shots, and with 2/3 of those hitting, we can expect 4 Hits
With Fleshbane the Psilencer wounds on a 2+, which is a 5/6 chance To-Wound
4 Hits with a 5/6 chance To-Wound results in 3.333 Wounds
A 5++ save will statistically fail 2/3 of the attempts made
3.333 Wounds remaining unsaved 2/3 of the time will result in 2.222 Unsaved Wounds.
If the Psilencer is mobile it instead has 4 shots, on a 2/3 chance to hit, resulting in 2.666 Hits
With Fleshbane the Psilencer wounds on a 2+ which is a 5/6 chance To-Wound
2.666 Hits with a 5/6 chance To-Wound results in 2.222 Wounds
A 5++ save will statistically fail 2/3 of the attempts made
2.222 Wounds remain unsaved 2/3 of the time will result in 1.481 Unsaved Wounds
So, even if the Grey Knights take 10-man units, and combat squad them with both Special Weapons in the same unit (The only way any Grey Knight unit can have 2 Special Weapons in a 5-man unit other than Purifiers, Paladins, and Purgation Squads), If the unit functions as a static gun line (which is very difficult in 7th edition especially for Grey Knights) that would only be 4 unsaved wounds caused, + the chance to cast Force and hoping they don't kill themselves in the process. If they move they'll statistically cause 3 unsaved wounds.
2 Warp Charge Dice gives a 75% chance of successfully harnessing the Warp Charges, and a 2.8% chance of getting a Perils. It the enemy unit is that important to not be subject to Instant Death, the oponent can use his Warp Charge dice to deny it. Grey Knights have so many powers to cast, they don't have that many extra dice to throw around.
At 3 Warp Charge Dice, they have an 87.5% chance of successfully harnesing Warp Charges, but their chance of Perils increases to 8.3%.
Stop pretending Warp Charges make all of the Grey Knights' problems go away. Even if an oponent doesn't try to deny Force, and the Grey Knight uses 3 Warp Charges, and they stand still for the maximum firepower, that's still an average of 1.84 unsaved Instant Death Wounds for a shooting phase. An upgrade that's supposed to be anti-hoard, that costs as much as a Lascannon, statistically can only inflict <2 Wounds with Instant Death, under optimal circumstances. There is no polite response to your claim that Force with Fleshbane is overpowered. You are wrong. And doubling up the weapon doesn't make it better, because the unit has to pay for the equivalent of a Lascannon FOR EACH ONE.
If a 10-15pt anti-hoard gun CAN'T cause a couple unsaved Wounds reliably on low-save enemies, it isn't an anti-hoard gun. If it can't reliably cause multiple unsaved wounds to hoard enemies, or at least a single wound to a tougher enemy, it isn't worth the expense, even with Force. Remember, the expense isn't just the 10-15pts, it's also the Storm Bolter, and Nemesis Force Sword.
The Psilencer isn't worth taking at all without both Force and Fleshbane. As I have shown multiple times, having both simply makes the Psilencer on-par with weapons available to other factions statistically. It is not just a "point-delete" weapon as you claim.
Such a blatant disregard for the facts teeters dangerously close to trolling.
Case and point: Daemons have access to AV13, with a 5++ invulnerable save. The Psycannon as I proposed is simply as capable as the Lascannon at facing that. It's not a matter of being "super-effective against vehicles". It's a matter of being able to fight their Preferred Enemy with and being able to damage that preferred enemy's Soulgrinder.
Never considered taking a psylincer ever. It's so F in bad. Even with flesh bane it's still bad - maybe the heavy pslinser would be okay on dreadknights with it - but I'd still probably be more inclined to take the heavy incinerator for anti horde duities.
I have not yet encountered a Daemonprince that didn't purchase the 3+ save. And recognising that my perception of 3+ being the average could be off I gave my calculations so others could check my math, and provide the stats for whatever target unit they believe would be a better example. Besides, I was thinking along the lines of Monstrous Creatures, not cheap hoard units.
Outside of Flesh Hounds who are likely a couple pts too cheap and can take up to 20/squad, none of those multi-wound units are "cheap hordes". They either pay upwards of 30+ pts a pop for their T4 + mutilple wounds, and/or tend to cap out at no more than 10 models per squad.
Bill1138 wrote: You're making the keeping of a respectful tone very difficult. I showed you the math that proves that the Psilencer is no more powerful than other comon weapons in the game, and that the price is comparable for similarly powered weapons. Your insistence that it is broken, or a point-delete weapon is 100% unfounded, and evidenced by you not providing the math to support your argument.
What are you saying is the "typical" multi-wound model"? I'm certain that the Psilencer doesn't become overpowered or broken regardless of the enemy. You seemed to show several Daemons with 5++ saves and split between T4 & 5. If I show you the math for these types of units will you actually look at it from a logical perspective?
So, if we go with a T4, 5+ save enemy...
Grey Knights have BS4, hitting on a 3+, which gives them a 2/3 chance To-Hit
If the Psilencer is stationary, it gets 6 shots, and with 2/3 of those hitting, we can expect 4 Hits
With Fleshbane the Psilencer wounds on a 2+, which is a 5/6 chance To-Wound
4 Hits with a 5/6 chance To-Wound results in 3.333 Wounds
A 5++ save will statistically fail 2/3 of the attempts made
3.333 Wounds remaining unsaved 2/3 of the time will result in 2.222 Unsaved Wounds.
If the Psilencer is mobile it instead has 4 shots, on a 2/3 chance to hit, resulting in 2.666 Hits
With Fleshbane the Psilencer wounds on a 2+ which is a 5/6 chance To-Wound
2.666 Hits with a 5/6 chance To-Wound results in 2.222 Wounds
A 5++ save will statistically fail 2/3 of the attempts made
2.222 Wounds remain unsaved 2/3 of the time will result in 1.481 Unsaved Wounds
So, even if the Grey Knights take 10-man units, and combat squad them with both Special Weapons in the same unit (The only way any Grey Knight unit can have 2 Special Weapons in a 5-man unit other than Purifiers, Paladins, and Purgation Squads), If the unit functions as a static gun line (which is very difficult in 7th edition especially for Grey Knights) that would only be 4 unsaved wounds caused, + the chance to cast Force and hoping they don't kill themselves in the process. If they move they'll statistically cause 3 unsaved wounds.
When using them paired, you suddenly get:
12 shots @BS4 = 8 hits
8 hits wounding one 2's = 6.64 wounds. accounting for rounding, it's typically averaging 7 wounds.
7 wounds vs. 5++ = 2.31, and again, taking rounding into account, that's 2 saves.
5 models dead from a single unit toting a pair of Fleshbane + Force Psilencers is amazing for the GK player. That's typically a complete wipe-out vs. the likes of Bloodcrushers, Fiends, Beasts, Plaguedrones, Ogryns, Chaos Spawn, and any other non-4+ save unit.
Against a 'typically' 3+ Monstrous Creature, it's even more skewed in the GK player's favour:
12 Shots @BS4 = 8 hits
8 hits wounding 2's = 6.64 wounds. (round up to 7)
7 wounds vs. 3+ armour = 4.62 saves, rounding up makes it 5 saves.
2 unsaved wounds = dead MC due to Force.
Against a 2+ save MC such as the often bemoaned "Cheesetide", you're still averaging a guaranteed kill:
12 Shots @BS4 = 8 hits
8 hits wounding on 2's = 6.64 wounds (round up to 7)
7 wounds vs. 2+ armour = 5.81 saves, rounding up makes it 6 saves.
1 unsaved wound = dead MC due to Force.
There is no way to remove the stink attached to a long ranged gun that always wounds on 2's and can easily be upgraded to Instant Death! status. Sure, Wraiths, Centurions, Pallies, Mega Nobs and the like don't melt to it. Everything else, especiallyMC's do get reliably nuked by a single unit able to take 2 of these things.
Yes, you're trading out your Force weapon (the only real sacrifice) for the equivalent cost of a Lascannon. Lascannons though can not one-shot multiple models and/or MC's in a single shooting phase.
Range isn't even an issue either, as with 36" you can easily keep a small unit or two behind your main advance and fully support where needed. (hooray for Combat Squads)
Grey Knights don't and shouldn't gunline. That only means you shouldn't be keeping your entire main combat line purely static. A couple of smaller squads holding down solid fire support lines is still very doable, and very beneficial to the more aggressive style of GK's. Even purely assault based armies still tend to keep some smaller support elements in their backfield.
Bill1138 wrote: 2 Warp Charge Dice gives a 75% chance of successfully harnessing the Warp Charges, and a 2.8% chance of getting a Perils. It the enemy unit is that important to not be subject to Instant Death, the oponent can use his Warp Charge dice to deny it. Grey Knights have so many powers to cast, they don't have that many extra dice to throw around.
So, sure, Daemons can likely stop one or two attempts. No one else, not even Tyranids will stand a snowball's chance in hell of preventing more than a single Force activation attempt. And even then, run your Psychic phase intelligently, and you can easily run most opponents out of dispel dice before you get to your critical powers... (I do it all the time with Tzeentch Daemons)
Plus you have armies like Orks & Tau especially who pretty much have no real ability to put out many Warp Charges. Mostly they just rely on the single D6.
Bill1138 wrote: At 3 Warp Charge Dice, they have an 87.5% chance of successfully harnesing Warp Charges, but their chance of Perils increases to 8.3%.
Bill1138 wrote: Stop pretending Warp Charges make all of the Grey Knights' problems go away. Even if an oponent doesn't try to deny Force, and the Grey Knight uses 3 Warp Charges, and they stand still for the maximum firepower, that's still an average of 1.84 unsaved Instant Death Wounds for a shooting phase. An upgrade that's supposed to be anti-hoard, that costs as much as a Lascannon, statistically can only inflict <2 Wounds with Instant Death, under optimal circumstances. There is no polite response to your claim that Force with Fleshbane is overpowered. You are wrong. And doubling up the weapon doesn't make it better, because the unit has to pay for the equivalent of a Lascannon FOR EACH ONE.
An Average GK army is typically carrying:
Libby (Lv3)
2 Troops
5-10 'Ceptors
2 Dreadknights
So even barebones, you're looking at 8-9 WC's + D6. That's well above average. Most armies are lucky to have 4 + D6 charges. If you can't organise your Psychic phase in order to near guarantee your 1-2 critical powers you really need go off, that's your fault.
Grey Knights are easily capable of putting 10-12WC's + D6 or more onto the table. Only Daemons can reliably equal or out Warp Charge you. (or Eldar spamming double Farseers + Warlock Congress, which btw, is a terrible build for them in 7th!)
Besides, causing a single wound is all you need against a Monstrous Creature. Against the majority of multi-wound units, you're still reliably killing 2-3 at least, which outside of Flesh Hounds, is typically at worst a full 1/3rd of that unit.
Bill1138 wrote: If a 10-15pt anti-hoard gun CAN'T cause a couple unsaved Wounds reliably on low-save enemies, it isn't an anti-hoard gun. If it can't reliably cause multiple unsaved wounds to hoard enemies, or at least a single wound to a tougher enemy, it isn't worth the expense, even with Force. Remember, the expense isn't just the 10-15pts, it's also the Storm Bolter, and Nemesis Force Sword.
The Psilencer isn't worth taking at all without both Force and Fleshbane. As I have shown multiple times, having both simply makes the Psilencer on-par with weapons available to other factions statistically. It is not just a "point-delete" weapon as you claim.
If you're going purely anti-horde, you're not casting Force. A "Horde" unit is just that; a large blob of individually weak grunts, typically sporting T3/5+ or T4/6+. Horde units are not multi-wound, outside of the Flesh Hound case. (and admittedly, Flesh Hounds are too good right now - they'd be solid even at 20pts a pop with their current stats!)
The Psilencer takes out hordes quite well as is when those units are in the open. Incinerators make a true mockery of hordes in cover!
You don't need help killing hordes.
10-15pts is pretty fair actually. The units which really lose on the Force sword typically don't want to be in combat anyways outside of cleaning up an already crippled unit, hence it's not a huge drawback.
Purifiers meanwhile have 2 attacks base, so while the dude carrying the gun makes a bigger sacrifice in giving up his pointy-death-stick, the rest of squad has still have weight of attacks of their own. (and besides, Purifiers shouldn't even have the option for 2 special/5 men to begin with - they're meant to be a dedicated assault unit - not 'uberfied Purgs x100!)
Even as it is currently, the Psilencer is still much better than most other armies get for tackling their intended target; T4/multi-wound/non-3+ saves. Everyone else is typically sacrificing their S8+ guns, (typically their anti-tank stuff), and/or has to commit a very substantial portion of their shooting to remove those threats.
Bill1138 wrote: Such a blatant disregard for the facts teeters dangerously close to trolling.
The same goes both ways you know... you seem to be willfully keeping blinders up regarding just how massive powerful to the point of game-breaking a long ranged 6-shot/wounds on 2'/Force gun really is.
Bill1138 wrote: Case and point: Daemons have access to AV13, with a 5++ invulnerable save. The Psycannon as I proposed is simply as capable as the Lascannon at facing that. It's not a matter of being "super-effective against vehicles". It's a matter of being able to fight their Preferred Enemy with and being able to damage that preferred enemy's Soulgrinder.
You don't need a 'better Lascannon' to deal with a Soul Grinder. A single Dreadknight will reliably murder a Grinder in combat before it can even fight back. And outside of the Nurgle Grinders w/Phlegm Bombardment, they tend to actively come to you anyways!
If you're routinely getting your army handed back to you by a Soul Grinder, the current Grey Knight codex isn't the problem... Yes Soul Grinders are good, they're not THAT good however, and they have substantial weakness & problems of their own.
Case in point: WS3/BS3/I3/A4 and must pay at a minimum an additional 'tax' for dedication (okay, Khorne is 'free', but also a completely useless bonus!) And that's before considering they pay an additional 25pts to gain +1A, as well as additional pts to gain any kind of shooting attack.
A typical DoT + Torrent Grinder is 160pts. A DoN + Phlegm Grinder is 180pts.
And they're also in a highly competitive slot in our book too, as they're competing alongside Prince + Khannons + Burning Chariots for space.
At what point does making the same mathematically wrong argument over and over become a violation of the rules?
Causing 1-2 unsaved Wounds with a chance for Instant Death by a Psilencer for 10-15 points on top of sacrificing a Nemesis Force Sword, and a Storm Bolter is not overpowered. Anything less and it's unfieldable.
You can't argue double the number of shots taken under optimal circumstances and use that as a disproof of the weapon being balanced and viable.
If anything, my proposed Psilencer is still weak against Hoards, but is fairly good at killing Monstrous Creatures, but not much more so than the Lascannon, for which the costs are comparable. And don't forget, my proposed Psilencer CAN'T HARM VEHICLES. It is primarily an Anti-Daemon gun, as it is supposed to be.
Bill1138 wrote: At what point does making the same mathematically wrong argument over and over become a violation of the rules?
Causing 1-2 unsaved Wounds with a chance for Instant Death by a Psilencer for 10-15 points on top of sacrificing a Nemesis Force Sword, and a Storm Bolter is not overpowered. Anything less and it's unfieldable.
You can't argue double the number of shots taken under optimal circumstances and use that as a disproof of the weapon being balanced and viable.
If anything, my proposed Psilencer is still weak against Hoards, but is fairly good at killing Monstrous Creatures, but not much more so than the Lascannon, for which the costs are comparable. And don't forget, my proposed Psilencer CAN'T HARM VEHICLES. It is primarily an Anti-Daemon gun, as it is supposed to be.
Causing 1-2 unsaved wounds per gun. It's not like you're only ever fielding just 0-1 of these things. With these rules, you'd definitely see units toting them around in pairs to ensure better redundancy. (Purgators would frankly be an utter nightmare with these things...)
With Force active, 1-2 wounds = 1-2 auto dead models. For Grey Knights, casting Force across multiple units is not an issue at all.
These rules are effectively a massive 'Feth-you' to every single monstrous creature in the game. Multi-wound units, especially low save multi-wound units, are equally smashed.
And yes, you *should* run the numbers under optimal circumstances as a way to help see if something is too powerful or not. Using only the least optimised scenario and calling it "fair" is insulting.
As for this farce that your proposed rules make a 36"/S4/ap-/Fleshbane/Force Psiclencer not much better vs. an MC than a Lascannon? Please, show us where a single Lascannon gets more than a 0.00% chance at killing a MC with more than a single wound remaining.
This thing isn't just "fairly good" at killing MC's. A single one can potentially pull it off when standing still. Paired up, you're on purely average rolls guaranteed to kill a 3+ save MC. (and still insta-jib even a 2+ save MC on average rolls)
That's a pretty good definition of "over powered."
No one's going on about this proposed Psilencer being good/bad vs. vehicles. My problem, (and I'm the vast majority of others problem with it), is that it's frankly god-mode vs. every single non-flying MC and every single multi-wound model unit that can't sport a 2+ save!
Better yet, go see if any Daemon or Tyranid or Ork or Tau player will let you try out these proposed rules. Just don't be surprised with they ask if you're joking and reply, "sure, but only when the Leafs win the Stanley Cup!"
Bill1138 wrote: On both of these points I don't believe we will will come to an agreement.
7th Edition is all about the shooting phase, and the Grey Knights are hurting because they don't have any cost-effective options with better than a 24" range.
I don't care for your "better melta" suggestion because it has only an 18" range for an army with a practical max of 24". Also, your proposed new gun only benefits from melta within 9". Short of Shunting or Deep Striking dangerously close to enemy vehicles, that's not going to be useful for the Grey Knights. It also bears the problem that it is a new weapon to replace the Psycannon instead of fixing it.
It replaces the Psycannon in the anti-vehicle and anti-MC roles. The Psycannon as a general purpose weapon useful for de-meching opponents and functioning as an anti-median Toughness (T4/5) anti-infantry weapon still remains- it's just that Psycannons really shouldn't be saddled with all the jobs that they currently have to do. It breaks the weapon, because it becomes too much of an auto-take; the only competitive alternative is the Incinerator, and it really only counts as "competitive" when you consider either Interceptors (who can move in and set things on fire very quickly) or other PAGKs because they don't have Relentless and thus cannot take advantage of Psycannons very well.
If we compare my suggested Psycannon, a Lascannon, and your proposed "better melta" against a Soulgrinder:
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Psycannon is (4)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 16/54
= 0.30 Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.049 Explosions.
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a mobile Psycannon is (2)(2/3)(1/6)(2/3) = 8/54
= 0.15 unsaved Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.025 Explosions.
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by a stationary Lascannon is (1)(2/3)(1/2)(2/3) = 4/18
= 0.22 unsaved Penetrating Hits, with a 1/6 chance of an Explodes Result, bringing the chance of a one-shot down to 0.037 Explosions.
The statistical damage dealt to a Soulgrinder by your better melta past 9" is (1)2/3)(1/3)(2/3) = 4/27
= 0.074 unsaved glancing hits, + 0.074 unsaved penetrating hits, with a 1/3 chance of an explode result, resulting in 0.0247 Explosions.
Outside of spitting distance, the the Psycannon I proposed is better at destroying vehicles than your proposed better-melta.
Firstly, please clean up your maths by using spoiler tags- it contributes greatly to the readability of your post. It's something I had to learn too, don't feel bad.
Secondly, what about the numbers for a "Psi-Melta" in melta range? With a 9" melta range and mass DS for the GKs it's perfectly reasonable to expect that you could in fact get within that 9" range. Incidentally, I just came up with an... interesting... idea for ways to reliably accomplish that.
Bill1138 wrote: The Grey Knights need good firepower with decent range, and your melta suggestion doesn't offer that.
Grey Knights do have some "decent" ranged options- these options are simply limited to either overly thin or overly expensive vehicles. It's also worth noting that GKs do still have a lot of flexibility for up-field deployment options, so getting into melta range- particularly an extended 9" melta range- isn't as hard as you seem to think.
Bill1138 wrote: And I showed you my math for the Psilencer with Fleshbane and Force, and that it is not more powerful than other weapons that already exist and are available to the other Imperial factions' infantry. It seems to me that you reject the suggestion out of hand with your reasoning having nothing to do with the balance of firepower. Even with Fleshbane and Force, it is a hair better at anti-hoard than a Lascannon, and that isn't saying much. It only shines if it has a non-laughable chance at killing high toughness Monstrous Creatures.
Psilencers shouldn't be anti-MC though- not only is the AP- of the weapon incredibly detrimental to that, but I personally think that Psilencers need a defined role that isn't only "kill multi-wound infantry". Your proposal does nothing to address that, realistically speaking.
Bill1138 wrote: As for Scout, the problem is that Deep Striking a few inches outside of their deployment zone is not useful to the Grey Knights. It leaves them in the middle of no-man's land where they have to trudge through enemy fire to get to anything. The purpose of Deep Strike is to get units to places they either couldn't get to otherwise or where they need to get to more quickly than they could by going by ground. Deep Striking on Scout units does neither of these things.
I maintain, that the Grey Knights should have access to an Infiltrate unit, but the next best thing would be Rites of Teleportation that only scatters 1d6 (I suggested making this a Special Rule for the Strike Squads). I believe Scout is useless for the Grey Knights.
I disagree on the Infiltrate option- it simply doesn't fit with the thematic- or mechanic- design of the army. It opens the potential for a lot of abuse for alpha strikes, and I think we can both agree that armies which prevent the opponent from doing more than rolling saves- if that- are bad game design.
In any case, I could get behind the idea that Strike Squads get a special rule that reduces their DS scatter.
Experiment 626 wrote: Bullgryns are a 4+ save base. They can only gain 3+ if they take the worse option of Slab Shield + Grenadier Gauntlet and then put everyone into base-to-base contact with another member of the squad, ala Deathwing Knights and their +1T gimmick.
9/10 times however, Bullgryns will go for Brute Shields (5++ save) and Power Mauls and thus be relying heavily on their 4+ armour save.
My mistake- I had assumed something that was untrue of Bullgryns. Incidentally, that actually validates my point even more- the "average" is generally 4+ or worse.
Experiment 626 wrote: S5 Psilencers would still be too much of a kick in the nads to every T4 non-2+ save multi-wound unit. Daemons would be less effected due to our ability to get multiple ways to augment our invulns, but overall, it's still too much to have a 36" range S5 instant kill weapon...
It's also worth noting that that is my opinion. I have already previously amended my suggestion for Psilencers to the following:
Spoiler:
Psilencer 36" Salvo 4/6 S4 AP- Force
36" Salvo 4/6 S5 AP- [TBD cool gimmick that is interesting but not gamebreaking]
It is also worth noting that GK infantry are heavily incentivized to move around a lot, and that the 36" range being tossed around is to compensate for the terrible mechanics of Salvo; if Salvo were change thusly:
Spoiler:
Salvo weapons have to values for "shots"; the first is used when the unit moves, while the second is used if the unit remains stationary. Range is not effected by moving or remaining stationary
Then it's unnecessary to include the 36" range- 24" works fine if Salvo doesn't screw with maximum range like it does now.
Experiment 626 wrote: Keep in mind, all these units are already suffering due to the mass proliferation of S8+ in the game. The only really troublesome spot right now with these units are;
- Wraiths gaining a boost when it wasn't needed, then gaining an even bigger one when taken in their Decurion formation. (Fix the issues within codex Necrons)
- Daemons of Tzeentch and their re-rolled 2++ shenanigans. (Fix the issues within codex Daemons by limiting our invulns to 3++ at best, ala MoT in CSM's.)
- Centstar (play Maelstrom missions that make slow-@$$ deathstars and gunlines a complete liability!)
- Draigo Centstar (hmmmmm... okay, this one really sucks admittedly, as Draigo bring guaranteed GoI...)
Insofar as 2++ re-rollable shenanigans, I would simply removing the ability to re-roll invulnerable and probably cover saves as well. Armor is generally easier to bypass, especially in this era of mass AP2 everywhere.
Experiment 626 wrote: If we want 36"/S5 Psilencers, then Force would need to go, and instead give them something else to make up for it, such as perhaps Shred.
Check my current iteration (which existed before this thread got back up again). You might like it.
Experiment 626 wrote: Likewise I think a mobile Psi-Melta with a 24" engagement range is a bit too much. Again, odds are if you're taking one in a unit, you'll take two for redundancy. Interceptors would be insane with these things! T1, shunt into range of the biggest, nastiest MC the enemy has, pop off Force, nuke.
MC's, especially FMC's have taken enough kicks in 7th from their utter domination in 6th.
First off, the reason for "Assault" is to prevent what could be termed the "Psilencer problem", in that the weapon is functionally useless unless you sit still, but has such a small range that you have to move in order to actually get into range in the first place.
There's still ways to correct the anti-MC "issue"- perhaps the following?
As an example, let's consider the aforementioned Interceptor squad with two Psi-Meltas. We'll assume that they've shunted into range already, and are firing on a typical T6 MC.
Original S8+Force Psi-Melta
Spoiler:
First, with one shot, in the case of a min-sized Interceptor/Strike Squad:
1 shot @ BS4 is ~0.67 hits;
0.67 hits is ~0.56 wounds
Force applies ID, AP1 bypass armor, MCmight die.
Now for two shots:
2 shots at BS4 is 1.33 hits
1.33 hits with 2+ wounding is ~1.11 wounds
Force applies ID, AP1 bypasses armor, MC dies
Updated S6+Force Psi-Melta
Spoiler:
Again, starting with one shot:
1 shot @ BS4 is ~0.67 hits
S6 vs T6 is 4+ wounding, for ~0.33 wounds
Force applies ID, AP2 bypasses armor, MC very unlikely to die
2 shots @ BS4 is ~1.33 hits
1.33 hits with 4+ wounding is ~0.67 wounds
Force for ID, AP2 for armor, ~0.67 unsaved wounds; MC has moderate probability to die
Also, it would seem to me that MCs are still heavily dominating, with widespread dislike of not only the Riptide (and Flyrant) but also the Dreadknight and Wraithknight.
Experiment 626 wrote: Besides, GK's don't need to be super efficient vs. high AV targets to be a viable army... Daemons are likewise equally poop vs. vehicles at range - in fact, we're much worse off than GK's in this regard!
We still do fine however with using our speed to get in close and hit things though. Only Serpent Spam and Imperial Knights give us fits, and the former is simply a case of fixing the offending model within its own codex. (nuke the damn shield rules please!)
Then IMO Daemons should have better mid-range options for dealing with armor, much in the same way I proposed GKs should get a slightly longer-ranged melta weapon.
Also, I'd like to mention that IMO Imperial Knights should be instead limited to being a Skitarii LOW, as this then allows for a fluffy "Knight+Sacristan" style list. But I might be crazy to say such a thing...
Also also, yes, let us kill the scourge of Serpent Spam with much FIRE
Experiment 626 wrote: If GW isn't going to give us Grey Knight Jetbikes, (shame on them!), then Land Speeders would be a better fit than a Force Melta. Still addresses the need, but doesn't present a highly obnoxious hard-counter to an entire subset of units.
I rather disagree- Land Speeders don't really fit with the GK theme; almost every vehicle they have- in fact, anything that's not a Dreadnought- is a transport of some kind, so I would argue that vehicles in the GK list are all intended to be used to deliver the GKs themselves into action... which Land Speeders do not do.
Incidentally, I had a blazingly brilliant idea a moment ago, regarding GK Jetbikes:
Jetbikes are an option for GK Techmarines, who can also take Teleport Homers. This fulfills the whole "GKs get the best bits" part, while also providing a fast-moving unit that can be used to set up accurate DS's.
Experiment 626 wrote: The Psilencer takes out hordes quite well as is when those units are in the open. Incinerators make a true mockery of hordes in cover!
You don't need help killing hordes.
I want to single this out, because as I have said elsewhere, I've run the math on this. Psilencers are only better at killing T4 multi-wound models. Against everything else- all T3/T5 models, and T4 single-wound models, and even anything with a 3+ or better save.... it's better to point a Psycannon at it.
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, 5.28 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get ~4.4 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~3.5 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get ~2.6 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~1.7 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T3 Infantry
8 shots @ BS4, for 5.28 hits, 4.4 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
5+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
4+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
3+ Armor, we get ~2.3 unsaved wounds; Rending adds ~0.88 wounds, assuming I've done my math right
Psilencer, T4 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, 4 wounds before saves. Assuming:
6+ Armor, we get ~3.3 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~2.6 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get 2 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~1.3 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T4 Infantry
8 shots @ BS4, for 5.28 hits, 4.4 wounds before saves
6+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
5+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
4+ Armor, we get 4.4 unsaved wounds due to AP4
3+ Armor, we get ~2.3 unsaved wounds, due to Rending
Psilencer, T5 Infantry
12 shots @ BS4, for 8 hits, ~2.6 wounds before saves
6+ Armor, we get ~2.2 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor, we get ~1.7 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor, we get ~1.3 unsaved wounds
3+ Armor, we get ~0.9 unsaved wounds
Psycannon, T5 Infantry
Honestly, I'm not even going to bother doing the numbers for this entry- it'll be the exact same as the Psycannon performs against T3 and T4 infantry models.
From that, we can instantly and easily see that Psilencers are only good at killing Toughness 4 multi-wound models with a 4+ or worse save. Against everything else, the Psycannon is currently superior. As for Incinerators... template weapons need to get close, which isn't always possible or ideal.
The GKs certainly have more widespread options- at least in theory- to get close, but that's really the kicker for templates. They need to get really close.
SGTPozy wrote: How could anyone view fleshbane AND force with 6 shots as balanced?
That would make it the most OP gun in the game! Anyone would think that people just want to return to the Ward Dex's level of cheese.
That's an impressive rebuttal of the math lined out above. Truly you are a master of arguments.
Oh what's that? I'm not the only one who thinks that this is completely OP and looks like it came from a 12 year old's fandex.
Bill1138 wrote: At what point does making the same mathematically wrong argument over and over become a violation of the rules?
Causing 1-2 unsaved Wounds with a chance for Instant Death by a Psilencer for 10-15 points on top of sacrificing a Nemesis Force Sword, and a Storm Bolter is not overpowered. Anything less and it's unfieldable.
You can't argue double the number of shots taken under optimal circumstances and use that as a disproof of the weapon being balanced and viable.
If anything, my proposed Psilencer is still weak against Hoards, but is fairly good at killing Monstrous Creatures, but not much more so than the Lascannon, for which the costs are comparable. And don't forget, my proposed Psilencer CAN'T HARM VEHICLES. It is primarily an Anti-Daemon gun, as it is supposed to be.
Causing 1-2 unsaved wounds per gun. It's not like you're only ever fielding just 0-1 of these things. With these rules, you'd definitely see units toting them around in pairs to ensure better redundancy. (Purgators would frankly be an utter nightmare with these things...)
With Force active, 1-2 wounds = 1-2 auto dead models. For Grey Knights, casting Force across multiple units is not an issue at all.
When was the last time you actually looked at the Grey Knight Codex?
Strike Squads can ONLY TAKE 1 SPECIAL WEAPON PER 5 MODELS. At 10 men, with no other upgrades beyond the two Psilencers, that is still 230pts!
Terminators at ten men with no other upgrades beyond 2 Psilencers is 360pts
Interceptors at ten men with no other upgrades beyond 2 Psilencers is 270pts
Purifiers can take two Psilencers at five models, but that's still 145pts with no other upgrades.
Paladins can take two Psilencers at five models as well, and they are 305pts with no other upgrades.
Purgation squads with two Psilencers and no other upgrades would come to 130pts.
Apart from possibly Purifiers and Purgation Squads, it would be the rare occurance to see two in the same unit.
These rules are effectively a massive 'Feth-you' to every single monstrous creature in the game. Multi-wound units, especially low save multi-wound units, are equally smashed.
And yes, you *should* run the numbers under optimal circumstances as a way to help see if something is too powerful or not. Using only the least optimised scenario and calling it "fair" is insulting.
The weapons will most often be used on the move which means they'll have an 18" range and only 4 shots. Using the long profile with it's maximum range means the rest of the unit can't shoot with their 24" weapons.
You should look at the weapon for how it will perform in an actual scenario, not DOUBLE what it is theoretically capable of if your opponent just sits on his hands. That would be ridiculous.
As for this farce that your proposed rules make a 36"/S4/ap-/Fleshbane/Force Psiclencer not much better vs. an MC than a Lascannon? Please, show us where a single Lascannon gets more than a 0.00% chance at killing a MC with more than a single wound remaining.
This thing isn't just "fairly good" at killing MC's. A single one can potentially pull it off when standing still. Paired up, you're on purely average rolls guaranteed to kill a 3+ save MC. (and still insta-jib even a 2+ save MC on average rolls)
That's a pretty good definition of "over powered."
As I've shown, it is costly for the Grey Knights to pair up on weapons. It is only cost-effective to do so with Purifiers and Purgation Squads, neither of which can Deep Strike, has better than a 3+ armor save, or any Invulnerable save.
Here you make the additional fallacy, of using the calculated odds of wounding a model with a 5+ save in place of a model with a 3+ save. A stationary Psilencer has 6 shots, hitting 2/3 of the time, wounding 5/6 of the time, and getting past a 3+ save 1/3 of the time, and Force on 3 Warp Charges being passed about 85% of the time with a 8% chance of Perils, which could very well kill the Psilencer. (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)(0.85) = 0.94 Unsaved Instant Death Wounds. That is statistically 1 (Wound) model killed. It is better than a Lascannon at killing Monstrous Creatures, but this comes at the expense of being able to harm vehicles at all. The Lascannon can reliably remove both Hull Points from Vehicles AND remove Wounds from Monstrous Creatures. The overall value of my proposed Psilencer is comparable to the Lascannon.
No one's going on about this proposed Psilencer being good/bad vs. vehicles. My problem, (and I'm the vast majority of others problem with it), is that it's frankly god-mode vs. every single non-flying MC and every single multi-wound model unit that can't sport a 2+ save!
Better yet, go see if any Daemon or Tyranid or Ork or Tau player will let you try out these proposed rules. Just don't be surprised with they ask if you're joking and reply, "sure, but only when the Leafs win the Stanley Cup!"
As you are so quick to point out the number of multi-wound models in the game that move in units with other models, the Psilencer as I suggested it would only be able to kill 1-2 models from the unit per shooting phase (assuming they don't die to a Perils or get blown away by the superior firepower of most other armies), and the rest just keep coming. Essentially, it's only as powerful as whatever it's shooting at. Doesn't that sound like a Psychic Weapon appropriate of the 40k universe?
As you are so quick to point out the number of multi-wound models in the game that move in units with other models, the Psilencer as I suggested it would only be able to kill 1-2 models from the unit per shooting phase (assuming they don't die to a Perils or get blown away by the superior firepower of most other armies), and the rest just keep coming. Essentially, it's only as powerful as whatever it's shooting at. Doesn't that sound like a Psychic Weapon appropriate of the 40k universe?
"Only" being able to kill 1-2 models from a unit of Carnifexes would be removing at least 240 points worth of nids for that turn of shooting =/
When was the last time you actually looked at the Grey Knight Codex?
Strike Squads can ONLY TAKE 1 SPECIAL WEAPON PER 5 MODELS. At 10 men, with no other upgrades beyond the two Psilencers, that is still 230pts!
Terminators at ten men with no other upgrades beyond 2 Psilencers is 360pts
Interceptors at ten men with no other upgrades beyond 2 Psilencers is 270pts
Purifiers can take two Psilencers at five models, but that's still 145pts with no other upgrades.
Paladins can take two Psilencers at five models as well, and they are 305pts with no other upgrades.
Purgation squads with two Psilencers and no other upgrades would come to 130pts.
Apart from possibly Purifiers and Purgation Squads, it would be the rare occurance to see two in the same unit.
Strikes, Purifiers, Paladins & Purgations can all make solid use of Psilencers. 'Ceptors are better off left to Incinerators when going only 5-6 men, while at 10 men they're better suited to Psycannons due to their 30" shunt allowing them to get that weapon within side/rear armour arcs.
With your proposed rules, these squads would easily make back their pts totals within 1-2 Shooting phases.
And if we're going to play the, "but it costs me lots of points!" game, then for just Daemons alone;
Spoiler:
LoC without ANY upgrades is the same cost as those 10 Strikes w/2x Psilencers. His 'typical' loadout is a whopping 305pts
Keeper of Secrets w/Lv3 Psyker is 220pts
Daemon Prince w/Wings + Armour + Lv3 Psyker + DoN is 290pts.
Daemon Prince w/Wings + Armour + Lv3 Psyker + DoT is 305pts
Daemon Prince w/Wings + Armour + Lv3 Psyker + DoS is 290pts
5 Bloodcrushers w/Axe of Khorne Champ is 240pts
6 Fiends is 210pts
5 Plaguedrones w/Etherblade Champ + Rot Proboscis is 250pts
5 Beasts of Nurgle is 260
9 Screamers is 225pts
230pts for your proposed rules is super cheap when it will earn back its own pts value (and then some when tagging a Daemonic MC) is too good. Purifiers & Purgations are outright broken with these rules.
If you want Fleshbane, then Force has to go. Otherwise you're simply giving your GK units the ability to simply point and click remove equally or more expensive units for little effort.
Really, the Psilencer only needs either:
36"/S4/ap-/Force + Daemonbane, Salvo 4/6
36"/S5/ap-/Shred (and/or something like 'removes all modifiers to invuln saves'). Salvo 4/6
That would be a good boost that makes the gun a relevant tactical choice. (Especially for 10 man Strike Squads w/transport and/or Purgations)
These rules are effectively a massive 'Feth-you' to every single monstrous creature in the game. Multi-wound units, especially low save multi-wound units, are equally smashed.
And yes, you *should* run the numbers under optimal circumstances as a way to help see if something is too powerful or not. Using only the least optimised scenario and calling it "fair" is insulting.
The weapons will most often be used on the move which means they'll have an 18" range and only 4 shots. Using the long profile with it's maximum range means the rest of the unit can't shoot with their 24" weapons.
You should look at the weapon for how it will perform in an actual scenario, not DOUBLE what it is theoretically capable of if your opponent just sits on his hands. That would be ridiculous.
Combat Squads are a viable tactic. You can easily have 5 dudes sit back behind your main push and pour supporting fire into a key target. The other 5 dudes can take a cheap DT and help claim forward objectives with Obsec.
Now you're "losing out" on only 3 Storm Bolters.
and yes, that would be an "actual scenario", as with such a silly-good profile, you'd be kidding yourself if you didn't take at least a single 10 Strike Squad to effectively hard-counter every single non-FMC in the game! (as well as being able to cripple the vast majority of T4/5 4+ save and worse units as well)
As for this farce that your proposed rules make a 36"/S4/ap-/Fleshbane/Force Psiclencer not much better vs. an MC than a Lascannon? Please, show us where a single Lascannon gets more than a 0.00% chance at killing a MC with more than a single wound remaining.
This thing isn't just "fairly good" at killing MC's. A single one can potentially pull it off when standing still. Paired up, you're on purely average rolls guaranteed to kill a 3+ save MC. (and still insta-jib even a 2+ save MC on average rolls)
That's a pretty good definition of "over powered."
As I've shown, it is costly for the Grey Knights to pair up on weapons. It is only cost-effective to do so with Purifiers and Purgation Squads, neither of which can Deep Strike, has better than a 3+ armor save, or any Invulnerable save.
Here you make the additional fallacy, of using the calculated odds of wounding a model with a 5+ save in place of a model with a 3+ save. A stationary Psilencer has 6 shots, hitting 2/3 of the time, wounding 5/6 of the time, and getting past a 3+ save 1/3 of the time, and Force on 3 Warp Charges being passed about 85% of the time with a 8% chance of Perils, which could very well kill the Psilencer. (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)(0.85) = 0.94 Unsaved Instant Death Wounds. That is statistically 1 (Wound) model killed. It is better than a Lascannon at killing Monstrous Creatures, but this comes at the expense of being able to harm vehicles at all. The Lascannon can reliably remove both Hull Points from Vehicles AND remove Wounds from Monstrous Creatures. The overall value of my proposed Psilencer is comparable to the Lascannon.
The Lascannon is terrible for stripping HP's due to it only ever being a single shot weapon. Hence why everyone loads up on either meltas for near guaranteed kills should they hit, or else they go for multi-shot weapons like grav.
And you need to stop assuming that 3+ is the average save for multi-wound models, because it is not:
Spoiler:
2+ Wounds/2+ save models:
Paladins
Dreadknight
Centurions
Oblits
Mutilators
Meganobz
Broadsides
Riptide
Tau Battlesuit Commander
Any Space Marine IC w/Artificer Armour or Termie Armour
2+ Wounds/3+ save models
Crisis Suits
Thunderwolf Cav
Bullgryns w/Slab Shields & in base-to-base contact
Hive Tyrant (not sure if upgrade or not)
Carnifex (pretty sure they're 3+ standard)
Daemon Prince w/upgrade
Bloodthirster
Destroyers & Heavy Destroyers
Wraiths
Canoptek Spyders
Talos
Cronos
Wraithlord
Wraithknight
*actually, it would be helpful if a Tyranid player could give the saves for the likes of the Malceptor, Haruspex, Toxicrene, Exocrine, Zoans, Venomthropes, Hive & Tyrant Guard, Trygon, Mawloc and Tyrannofex... (I don't have their new book)
2+ Wounds/4+ save models
Ork Nobz w/'Eavy Armour
Biker Nobz
Flash Gits w'Eavy Armour
Bullgryns
Tyranid Warriors
Tyranid Raveners
Biovore
Pyrovore
All forms of C'tan (Nightbringer, Deciever, Trans)
2+ Wounds/5+ save models
Daemon Prince w/out upgrade
LoC GUO Kipper
Bloodcrushers
Flesh Hounds
Beasts of Nurgle
Plaguedrones
Fiends
Flamers
Screamers
Tyranid Shrikes
Ogryns
2+ Wounds/6+ or no save models
Chaos Spawn
Nobz
Flash Gitz
Grotesques
Clawed Fiend
Swarms in general
I *think* that's all of them...
Monstrous Creatures as a rule tend to be fielded with 3+ saves (some of whom must spend points to upgrade to a 3+). However, they only need ONE failed save vs. a Psilencer to cop it. With Fleshbane, it can be all but guaranteed to bump one off within a single Shooting phase when using the weapon in pairs.
That's also typically at least 200pts down the toilet. More often than not, outside of the handful of undercosted MC's, (Riptide, Dreadknight, Wraithknight), it's more like 225-250+ pts that's being removed.
Multi-wound units however tend to be 4+ or worse. Only Tau, Necrons & Marines get more than a couple of 3+ or better save multi-wound unit options.
Those units also tend to cost at least 200+pts a pop as well, outside of the undercosted Flesh Hounds.
Bill1138 wrote: As you are so quick to point out the number of multi-wound models in the game that move in units with other models, the Psilencer as I suggested it would only be able to kill 1-2 models from the unit per shooting phase (assuming they don't die to a Perils or get blown away by the superior firepower of most other armies), and the rest just keep coming. Essentially, it's only as powerful as whatever it's shooting at. Doesn't that sound like a Psychic Weapon appropriate of the 40k universe?
Perils is incredibly low risk, and will hit a random model, making it even less likely to kill the Psilencer model(s).
And no, with your proposed rules, even when shooting on the move, those units lose 1-2 models per unit w/Psilencers. Standing still and using their range to their advantage however, as I've proven, shows that a Fleshbane + Force gun will on average kill 4-5+ models from a such unit.
Most of these units (again, acknowledging that Flesh Hounds need fixing to dial them back slightly), are only typically sporting at best 4-6 models per unit. Losing 3-4 in one go, from a single enemy squad is crippling.
Psilencer: 36” S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force
To-Hit: Grey Knights hit on a 3+ with their BS4. This is a 2/3 chance to Hit.
To-Wound: With Fleshbane, the Psilencer would wound on a 2+. This is a 5/6 chance to Wound.
Saves: To my understanding, multi-wound models typically have at least a 3+ save. This is a 1/3 chance of not being saved.
So, the statistical number of wounds caused by a stationary Psilencer is calculated (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=60/54 = 1.11 Wounds.
Once you figure in the odds of successfully casting Force, that brings it down to 0.66 Instant Death Wounds.
The same unit firing a Lascannon would have a chance calculated (1)(2/3)(5/6)(1/1)=10/18
= 0.55 Wounds which are Instant Death against models up to T4. The Difference being that the Lascannon is also very good at destroying vehicles, while the Psycannon is incapable of even glancing better than AV10.
The thing that jumps out to me regarding the above math is that the Psilencer's gains the ID on all models and always wounds on a 2+ due to fleshbane, whereas the Lascannon loses ID immediately at T5. ID is a wound multiplier, so under your Psilencer example on a 4W model it's 0.66x4 = 2.64 wounds (Lascannon: 0.55x4=2.2). I think we can agree that ID on a 1W model doesn't matter (Shameless edit: Unless it's necrons!, oops) , If it had Fleshbane, it would be tremendously efficient on models >T5, which is why I think there is discontent with the suggestion. Using your math, however, switching to T5, 4 wound model (same 3+ save, since i'm lazy !):
Psilencer is calculated (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=60/54 = 1.11 Wounds * .59 (Force casting) *4 (# of wounds)= 2.64
Lascannon is calculated calculated (1)(2/3)(5/6)(1/1)=10/18 = 0.55 regular wounds
The scaling of *real* ID (rather than just 2x Toughness) plus fleshbane's scaling is what makes the combo extremely deadly, even with armor saves. The Psilencer has nearly 5x the effectiveness against a T5 4 wound model.
reenon wrote: The thing that jumps out to me regarding the above math is that the Psilencer's gains the ID on all models and always wounds on a 2+ due to fleshbane, whereas the Lascannon loses ID immediately at T5. ID is a wound multiplier, so under your Psilencer example on a 4W model it's 0.66x4 = 2.64 wounds (Lascannon: 0.55x4=2.2). I think we can agree that ID on a 1W model doesn't matter (Shameless edit: Unless it's necrons!, oops) , If it had Fleshbane, it would be tremendously efficient on models >T5, which is why I think there is discontent with the suggestion. Using your math, however, switching to T5, 4 wound model (same 3+ save, since i'm lazy !):
Psilencer is calculated (6)(2/3)(5/6)(1/3)=60/54 = 1.11 Wounds * .59 (Force casting) *4 (# of wounds)= 2.64
Lascannon is calculated calculated (1)(2/3)(5/6)(1/1)=10/18 = 0.55 regular wounds
The scaling of *real* ID (rather than just 2x Toughness) plus fleshbane's scaling is what makes the combo extremely deadly, even with armor saves. The Psilencer has nearly 5x the effectiveness against a T5 4 wound model.
I see where you're coming from, but how would you fix it? The Grey Knights need a good anti-hoard gun, and currently the simpest option is to turn the Psilencer into the gun we need. What profile do you think would be fair?
As far as anti-horde* goes, I personally think that S5/AP- Salvo 4/6 would work fine- massed S5 is incredibly murderous to T3 infantry and poses a substantial threat to T4 horde infantry (who tend to have a 6+ on average).
This then allows the S4/AP- profile to gain Force. If the S5 profile got Shred then that would increase the effectiveness against hordes as well.
While I personally don't see much problem with S5 and Force, I can understand that I might not be able to see the big picture on that count.
*A horde is a large number of typically people. A hoard however, is a substantial, usually hidden, stash of gubbins and bits that are particularly valuable and/or shiny.
I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but what other factions have good anti horde weapons that most people think are fair (in terms of str/ap/# of shots)? Why not just mimic that, and add in something with GK flavor (probably not force)? The Skitarii have a 2x wounds on a roll of 6, which could be interesting, and makes it an efficacious anti-horde weapon (maybe Heavy 4, since most GK units are relentless).
Whiskey144 wrote: As far as anti-horde* goes, I personally think that S5/AP- Salvo 4/6 would work fine- massed S5 is incredibly murderous to T3 infantry and poses a substantial threat to T4 horde infantry (who tend to have a 6+ on average).
This then allows the S4/AP- profile to gain Force. If the S5 profile got Shred then that would increase the effectiveness against hordes as well.
While I personally don't see much problem with S5 and Force, I can understand that I might not be able to see the big picture on that count.
*A horde is a large number of typically people. A hoard however, is a substantial, usually hidden, stash of gubbins and bits that are particularly valuable and/or shiny.
Even in its current incarnation, the Psilencer is pretty boss at killing masses of T3/T4 5+ or worse saves. Even compared to the stronger Psycannon, as due to rounding to account for the fact you can't have decimal results with dice, they are equally effective against your typical horde unit of Guardsmen/Cultists/Boyz/Gaunts/etc... When massed together, the Psilencers are also better against T3 targets due to sheer weight of fire having a more profound impact vs. fewer higher strength shots.
S5 with or without Shred would definitely cement their role in this regard however!
Granted this takes into account that the horde unit in question is at least claiming 5+ cover save, but then, outside of playing games on Planet Bowling Ball, it's not hard to gain some kind of minor cover save. (while armies like Orks & Tyranids can generate their own moving cover with the likes of Kustom Force Fields or Venomthropes)
Sure the Psycannon can double out T3 multi-wound stuff, but there's no such thing as a multi-wound T3 [b]unit[/I] right now, outside of a Biomancy Psyker landing Enfeeble and casting it successfully on a multi-wound T4 unit... (at which point, I'd call that "tactics" )
Otherwise, multi-wound T3 is limited to only IC's, typically of the type you don't really require high strength to kill anyways!
reenon wrote: I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but what other factions have good anti horde weapons that most people think are fair (in terms of str/ap/# of shots)? Why not just mimic that, and add in something with GK flavor (probably not force)? The Skitarii have a 2x wounds on a roll of 6, which could be interesting, and makes it an efficacious anti-horde weapon (maybe Heavy 4, since most GK units are relentless).
Note that Grey Knights are typically a smaller army than most other factions, so we have less shooting to try to achieve the same effect. So for an appropriate cost, I believe it's not uncalled for for them to get a weapon that is better at anti-hoarde than the other armies' equivalents.
Also, most Grey Knights don't have Relentless. Only the Dreadknights and Terminator units have that benefit. Strike Squads, Purifiers, Interceptors, and Purgation Squads don't have it. This is why Salvo and the 36" range was suggested, the Heavy Profile on the Psilencer and the pitifully short range on a Salvo Psycannon made them useless to PAGK models, which in turn made those units (with the exception of the Interceptors' mobility or the Purifiers' Cleansing Flame) unfieldable. So the PAGK need to actually be able to use the weapons on the move without being reduced to a laughable chance to kill any opponents.
To reiterate: with a 36" range, when a non-relentless model moves, it can fire 18" (less than the rest of the unit), and if it uses its maximum range (either by being relentless or stationary) the unit sacrifices the rest of the models' ability to shoot with their 24" weapons, thus balancing it out.
The big trouble we encounter is that Force is the only reason anyone would possibly consider the current Psilencer. The Grey Knights are desperately lacking in ranged weapons capable of bringing down Monstrous Creatures or stopping encroaching hoardes, and the chance of Instant-deathing them is extremely appealing. However, as small as the Grey Knight army is, and as much as we pay per model, we can't afford to purchase upgrades that are statistically unlikely to do anything, which is the biggest problem with the current Psilencer.
What if the profile were changed to:
Psilencer: 36", S6, AP-, Salvo 8/12, Poisoned (4+)
Gatling Psilencer, 24", S6, AP- Heavy 24, Poisoned (4+)
No Force. No Shred. Just a ton of shots with NO AP. This would make it better at anti-hoarde, AND anti-Monstrous Creature, yet removes the "inta-gib" that gets peoples' undergarments in a twist. Poisoned would only come into effect for truly ridiculous Monstrous Creatures like the Wraithknight. It fits the Fluff, and is perfectly balanced if appropriately priced.
On the low end of the spectrum there's T3 units with about a 5+ save. The shots will count as Instant Death against T3 models due to double Strength.
Stationary Psilencer (12)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.44 Unsaved Wounds
Mobile Psilencer (8)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 2.96 Unsaved Wounds
Towards the middle of the spectrum there's Daemonprinces at T5, 3+ saves. It is not Instant Death, and Poisoned doesn't come into effect.
Stationary Psilencer (12)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 1.78 Unsaved Wounds
Mobile Psilencer (8)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 1.19 Unsaved Wounds
Towards the high end of the spectrum there's the Wraithknight at T8, 3+ saves. Poisoned finally comes into play, causing wounds on a 4+ instead of a 6+, meaning the weapon actually has a chance to get wounds past the enemy's saves.
Stationary Psilencer (12)(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 1.33 Unsaved Wounds
Mobile Psilencer (8)(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 0.89 Unsaved Wounds
7th Edition places high value on mobility and the Shooting Phase. Grey Knights typically have fewer models, so each model is expected to do more. So the Grey Knights' anti-hoarde weapon needs to statistically be able to deal unsaved damage every turn. The models will most often be firing on the move with the "mobile" profile, though it gives some viability back to non-mobile units, like those holding Comms Relays, or Objectives.
If you agree with this suggestion, what do you believe should be the point cost on the Psilencer?
Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.
24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.
If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.
24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.
If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.
You do realize the average GK army has like 14 models in it right?
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.
24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.
If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.
Check pg 169 of the Core Rulebook. There is a paragraph for melee, and another paragraph for shooting. The re-rolls are only stated in the Melee paragraph.
"Childish" and "idiotic" are overt insults and you're offering nothing constructive. You also ignore the statistics of what the weapon is capable of when you make your comments. If you can't follow the forum's rules, then GO AWAY.
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.
24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.
If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.
You do realize the average GK army has like 14 models in it right?
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.
24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.
If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.
Check pg 169 of the Core Rulebook. There is a paragraph for melee, and another paragraph for shooting. The re-rolls are only stated in the Melee paragraph.
"Childish" and "idiotic" are overt insults and you're offering nothing constructive. You also ignore the statistics of what the weapon is capable of when you make your comments. If you can't follow the forum's rules, then GO AWAY.
You have to admit that your proposed rules are very fandex-ish. They're extremely broken as Tyranids' TLDWBlW is way too good, and that's only a quarter of the shots AND range than your 'fix' (yours is also the same price so yours is 100-200% superior in every way!
Yeah, sure I got poison mixed up but it still stands! No one should have that many shots (and to think people complain about Eldar's S6 and S7 spam).
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.
24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.
If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.
You do realize the average GK army has like 14 models in it right?
Only because they spam nothing but Dreadknights
2 Independent Characters, 2 Terminator Squads and 1 Dreadknight comes to about 1,000pts, at 13 models. Grey Knights are a tiny army and taking 2 of a unit IS NOT SPAMMING.
You try building an army without taking 2 of any units. You'll get slaughtered.
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, you cannot be taken seriously; all of your proposed rules are extremely broken and childish.
24 S6 that reroll to wound because of poison... Wow, that's idiotic.
If you expect GW to enforce this then I want normal bolters (not your storm bolters) to become strength D and each have infinite range with 80 shots each; that is how idiotic your suggestions sound.
Check pg 169 of the Core Rulebook. There is a paragraph for melee, and another paragraph for shooting. The re-rolls are only stated in the Melee paragraph.
"Childish" and "idiotic" are overt insults and you're offering nothing constructive. You also ignore the statistics of what the weapon is capable of when you make your comments. If you can't follow the forum's rules, then GO AWAY.
You have to admit that your proposed rules are very fandex-ish. They're extremely broken as Tyranids' TLDWBlW is way too good, and that's only a quarter of the shots AND range than your 'fix' (yours is also the same price so yours is 100-200% superior in every way!
Yeah, sure I got poison mixed up but it still stands! No one should have that many shots (and to think people complain about Eldar's S6 and S7 spam).
No, your point doesn't stand. Your argument is based on false assumptions, and you refuse to acknowledge the scenario to be different than what you depicted.
You can't compare a weapon from a hoarde army to one from a tiny elite army. How a weapon performs in one scenario has nothing to do with how it performs in the other.
Str 6 is a bit overdoing it. That's an average of 5.333... hull points per turn against AV11 from the Gatling Psilencer. It's also 33% stronger at killing Marines than 3 Rapid Firing BS4 Plasma Guns (4.444... wounds vs. 3.333... wounds). The base idea still holds though, what if we made it S5 Poisoned (3+)? That way a Gatling Psilencer would deal 1.777... to a Riptide (sans FNP) per turn, 8.888... wounds to Boyz per turn, all the while not murdering Power Armour more efficiently than Plasma weapons. It also has the advantage of making it more reliable compared to Force; when Force works, it's highly rewarding for the owner, while when it doesn't it's rubbish due to having to have a lower wound output.
Pozy, if 'Nids aren't a horde army, what, other than Orks, is?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Str 6 is a bit overdoing it. That's an average of 5.333... hull points per turn against AV11 from the Gatling Psilencer. It's also 33% stronger at killing Marines than 3 Rapid Firing BS4 Plasma Guns (4.444... wounds vs. 3.333... wounds). The base idea still holds though, what if we made it S5 Poisoned (3+)? That way a Gatling Psilencer would deal 1.777... to a Riptide (sans FNP) per turn, 8.888... wounds to Boyz per turn, all the while not murdering Power Armour more efficiently than Plasma weapons. It also has the advantage of making it more reliable compared to Force; when Force works, it's highly rewarding for the owner, while when it doesn't it's rubbish due to having to have a lower wound output.
Pozy, if 'Nids aren't a horde army, what, other than Orks, is?
S5 means it can't harm AV12, and it is not Instant Death to T3 (which under most circumstances is just taking FNP away as I don't know of any non-HQ T3 multi-wound units). But Poisoned 3+ means it starts having an effect against T5 enemies. That creates a better distinction between the Psycannon as an anti-vehicle weapon and the Psilencer as an anti-hoarde/ Monstrous Creature weapon.
reenon wrote: I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but what other factions have good anti horde weapons that most people think are fair (in terms of str/ap/# of shots)? Why not just mimic that, and add in something with GK flavor (probably not force)? The Skitarii have a 2x wounds on a roll of 6, which could be interesting, and makes it an efficacious anti-horde weapon (maybe Heavy 4, since most GK units are relentless).
The majority of GK infantry are not Relentless. In fact, here's a list (outside of the HQ slot) of Relentless GK infantry:
Sooo... it would seem that there are twice as many non-Relentless infantry as Relentless infantry. Heavy 4 would, therefore, be a bad idea.
Experiment 626 wrote: Even in its current incarnation, the Psilencer is pretty boss at killing masses of T3/T4 5+ or worse saves. Even compared to the stronger Psycannon, as due to rounding to account for the fact you can't have decimal results with dice, they are equally effective against your typical horde unit of Guardsmen/Cultists/Boyz/Gaunts/etc... When massed together, the Psilencers are also better against T3 targets due to sheer weight of fire having a more profound impact vs. fewer higher strength shots.
Not really; as an example I ran the numbers with the assumption of a unit armed with either two Psilencers or two Psycannons, and the results ended up being that the Psycannon generally is equal to or pulls ahead of the Psilencer when killing single-wound infantry models. When considering the opportunity cost of the two weapons against each, even if the Psilencer was slightly better (it really isn't) then the Psycannon would still be overwhelmingly preferred due to being the "god gun" of the GK armory with how many things it's expected to do.
Experiment 626 wrote: S5 with or without Shred would definitely cement their role in this regard however!
Granted this takes into account that the horde unit in question is at least claiming 5+ cover save, but then, outside of playing games on Planet Bowling Ball, it's not hard to gain some kind of minor cover save. (while armies like Orks & Tyranids can generate their own moving cover with the likes of Kustom Force Fields or Venomthropes)
Sure the Psycannon can double out T3 multi-wound stuff, but there's no such thing as a multi-wound T3 [b]unit[/I] right now, outside of a Biomancy Psyker landing Enfeeble and casting it successfully on a multi-wound T4 unit... (at which point, I'd call that "tactics" )
Otherwise, multi-wound T3 is limited to only IC's, typically of the type you don't really require high strength to kill anyways!
Psycannons doubling out T3 also denies FNP, and not only that Psycannons are AP4, so the majority of T3 models are denied their armor saves. Psycannons are also still much better at killing T4+ infantry models and anything with an AV.
Still, I do agree that S5 (Shred optional) would be a great way to go with a dedicated anti-infantry profile for the Psilencer, with the Force profile being S4... though I've got another option for improving that without breaking T4 multi-wound models.
Due to the Poison Mechanics, it only comes into play against targets that the Strength value produces a poorer wound rate than the Poison roll; this helps Psilencers "up-engage" T5 multi-wound models with a success rate comparable to the current performance against T4 multi-wound models. Against a typical 3+ armor MC- T6 or otherwise- here's what happens with the Force profile:
Spoiler:
1 Psilencer produces 6 stationary shots @ BS4, for 4 hits
4 hits using Poison 4+ will produce 2 wounds
2 wounds vs 3+ armor is ~0.67 unsaved wounds
So we see that to statistically guarantee a kill on a typical 3+ armor MC using a hybrid Poison (4+) and Force profile, we'll actually need to put two Psilencers on the field, or deploy a DK with a Gatling Psilencer. Doing so will either require a glass cannon type of unit (min-size Purgation/Purifier), or a comparable investment (10-man Strike/GKT squad, Paladin squad of any kind, DK w/ Gatling Psilencer).
I'm inclined to say that that's actually pretty well balanced.
Keep in mind too, however, that moving around- which the GK infantry in general is very incentivized to do and the majority of GK infantry is not Relentless, will reduce that effectiveness quite noticeably:
Spoiler:
1 Psilencer produces 4 mobile (non-Relentless) shots @ BS4 for ~2.67 hits
2.67 hits using Poison 4+ produces ~1.33 wounds
1.33 wounds vs 3+ armor is ~0.44 unsaved wounds
It's worth noting that AP- is actually quite critical for Force-mode Psilencers, in order to keep them from instagibbing any multi-wound models- or worse, MCs!
Finally, I had an additional thought about fixing GK Dreadnoughts: what if we give them the Cleansing Flame power as their "built-in" power, the way Purifiers have? This might make GK Dreadnoughts semi-viable for anti-tarpit melee, in addition to a Skyfire option to provide additional anti-air support.
Whiskey144 wrote: Finally, I had an additional thought about fixing GK Dreadnoughts: what if we give them the Cleansing Flame power as their "built-in" power, the way Purifiers have? This might make GK Dreadnoughts semi-viable for anti-tarpit melee, in addition to a Skyfire option to provide additional anti-air support.
I'd second that. The Wounds caused by Cleansing Flame would probably be more valuable than a 6++. It would also allow the Dreadnought to pull double duty, like the Grey Knights' other units are expected to do. And as previously suggested, a Sky-fire option is a must to make the Dreadnoughts viable.
I like the latest version of the Psilencer we've compiled here. It serves as a good anti-hoarde weapon and a good anti- Monstrous Creature weapon.
Against Hoard units (T3, 5+),
Stationary/Relentless: (12)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.44 unsaved Wounds
Mobile (6)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 2.96 unsaved Wounds
Against the Typical Daemon (T4+, 5+)
Stationary/Relentless: (12)(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 3.56 unsaved Wounds
Mobile (8)(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 2.37 unsaved Wounds
Against the Typical Space Marine (T4+, 3+)
Stationary/Relentless: (12)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 1.78 unsaved Wounds
Mobile (8)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 1.19 unsaved Wounds
Against the Typical Terminator (T4+, 2+)
Stationary/Relentless: (12)(2/3)(2/3)(1/6) = 0.89 unsaved Wounds
Mobile (8)(2/3)(2/3)(1/6) = 0.59 unsaved Wounds
Still, I do agree that S5 (Shred optional) would be a great way to go with a dedicated anti-infantry profile for the Psilencer, with the Force profile being S4... though I've got another option for improving that without breaking T4 multi-wound models.
Due to the Poison Mechanics, it only comes into play against targets that the Strength value produces a poorer wound rate than the Poison roll; this helps Psilencers "up-engage" T5 multi-wound models with a success rate comparable to the current performance against T4 multi-wound models. Against a typical 3+ armor MC- T6 or otherwise- here's what happens with the Force profile:
Spoiler:
1 Psilencer produces 6 stationary shots @ BS4, for 4 hits
4 hits using Poison 4+ will produce 2 wounds
2 wounds vs 3+ armor is ~0.67 unsaved wounds
So we see that to statistically guarantee a kill on a typical 3+ armor MC using a hybrid Poison (4+) and Force profile, we'll actually need to put two Psilencers on the field, or deploy a DK with a Gatling Psilencer. Doing so will either require a glass cannon type of unit (min-size Purgation/Purifier), or a comparable investment (10-man Strike/GKT squad, Paladin squad of any kind, DK w/ Gatling Psilencer).
I'm inclined to say that that's actually pretty well balanced.
Keep in mind too, however, that moving around- which the GK infantry in general is very incentivized to do and the majority of GK infantry is not Relentless, will reduce that effectiveness quite noticeably:
Spoiler:
1 Psilencer produces 4 mobile (non-Relentless) shots @ BS4 for ~2.67 hits
2.67 hits using Poison 4+ produces ~1.33 wounds
1.33 wounds vs 3+ armor is ~0.44 unsaved wounds
It's worth noting that AP- is actually quite critical for Force-mode Psilencers, in order to keep them from instagibbing any multi-wound models- or worse, MCs!
The only big note on the idea of a Poison + Force Psilencer is that Bloodthirsters are actually the only Greater Daemon to get an armour save. The others only get it as a 16% or roughly 36% chance when rolling once or twice on the Greater Gifts table.
Mostly though, Mr. Magic Turkey, Papa Nurgle, and the Kipper pretty much rely on just their base T6 and 5++ for protection. (and then pray for a pair of decent rewards!) Keep in mind too, it's quite often that a DoC Prince will forego the cost of the 3+ armour save in order to keep costs down when going for the winged versions...
Hence, against them, being able to wound on a strait 4+ with an instant kill effect can be brutal. Same goes for all three types of C'tan as well - they only have their natural T7 and 4++.
I know there's not a lot of MC's without 3+ or better saves, (I'm honestly not sure about all the new Tyranid gribblies), but I think that since they do exist, Poison + Force can't really be calculated properly to balance against both ends of scale... 10-15pts is fair for example against the majority of 3+ or better save MC's. But against the 4++ and worse versions, you'd probably want an additional +10pts 'tax' since volume of shots + set 4+ to-wound roll will all but insure a wound sneaks through, then Force kicks in, and Boom! Bye-bye 275+ pts (not so)Greater Daemon!
Whiskey144 wrote: Finally, I had an additional thought about fixing GK Dreadnoughts: what if we give them the Cleansing Flame power as their "built-in" power, the way Purifiers have? This might make GK Dreadnoughts semi-viable for anti-tarpit melee, in addition to a Skyfire option to provide additional anti-air support.
I'd rather see a version of Holocaust for Dreads and especially Paladins... Flame that can be spammed by any army capable of massing WC's is hilariously brutal.
I once ran Ahriman in a Rhino and double Flamed from the top hatch... nuked both winged Nurgle Princes among neutering the other squads in range. (admittedly, my rolls were above average) Sure he Periled like a champ! But still, 2 winged Nurgle Princes on their own is close on 500pts just vaporised.
I've even contemplated a CSM list that could run 4 Lv3's and have them all roll on Santic... that alone would've given me 4 psykers with a 61% shot at each of them landing Flame. In a pair of Rhinos for added lolz.
Granted Dreads on their own are slow, but consider that with ally shenanigans, you can get your Dreads and/or Purifiers into Drop Pods for easy massing within prime nuking range.
(and IIRC, can a 10-man Purifier squad still split into Combat Squads when deploying via Drop Pod?)
For anti-tarpitting, which seems to be the main concern for close combat dreads, why not a return to the old Holocaust ability, which laid down the large 5" blast template anywhere on the casting model's base. (potentially even centered right over him for when you're completely surrounded?!)
S5/ap6/Soul Blaze for WC1?
It was awesome back in the 'Hunter 'dex for clearing out masses of weak grunts - I used it regularly with an Inquisitor to run into large blobs, let them kill his retinue (back when it was possible to legally keep IC's from ending up in BtB contact) and then nuking half or more of whatever unit they were fighting.
Worked like a charm!
reenon wrote: I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but what other factions have good anti horde weapons that most people think are fair (in terms of str/ap/# of shots)? Why not just mimic that, and add in something with GK flavor (probably not force)? The Skitarii have a 2x wounds on a roll of 6, which could be interesting, and makes it an efficacious anti-horde weapon (maybe Heavy 4, since most GK units are relentless).
The majority of GK infantry are not Relentless. In fact, here's a list (outside of the HQ slot) of Relentless GK infantry:
Sooo... it would seem that there are twice as many non-Relentless infantry as Relentless infantry. Heavy 4 would, therefore, be a bad idea.
You are correct , I was being pretty myopic when posting that and was thinking about what my GK lists ends up looking like (I usually only have 1 unit of PAGK with the rest in TDA). I think the math works out with regard to effective wounds, so my *only* nitpick is that poison doesn't seem very "fluffy." My solution, use the exact same rules and call it something else, like "Blessed Bullets" or some equally cheesy IoM wording.
I haven't dissected the he Salvo 8/12 solution as much, but how hilarious would drop podding a combat squad of purifiers with 4x Psilencer's + 2x cleansing flames be? Does the Gatling Psilencer go to 16/20?
reenon wrote: I'm not quite sure what the answer is, but what other factions have good anti horde weapons that most people think are fair (in terms of str/ap/# of shots)? Why not just mimic that, and add in something with GK flavor (probably not force)? The Skitarii have a 2x wounds on a roll of 6, which could be interesting, and makes it an efficacious anti-horde weapon (maybe Heavy 4, since most GK units are relentless).
The majority of GK infantry are not Relentless. In fact, here's a list (outside of the HQ slot) of Relentless GK infantry:
Sooo... it would seem that there are twice as many non-Relentless infantry as Relentless infantry. Heavy 4 would, therefore, be a bad idea.
You are correct , I was being pretty myopic when posting that and was thinking about what my GK lists ends up looking like (I usually only have 1 unit of PAGK with the rest in TDA). I think the math works out with regard to effective wounds, so my *only* nitpick is that poison doesn't seem very "fluffy." My solution, use the exact same rules and call it something else, like "Blessed Bullets" or some equally cheesy IoM wording.
I haven't dissected the he Salvo 8/12 solution as much, but how hilarious would drop podding a combat squad of purifiers with 4x Psilencer's + 2x cleansing flames be? Does the Gatling Psilencer go to 16/20?
I'm interested in seeing what you think of the Salvo 8/12 on the Psilencer. I like the idea of giving Poison a needlessly flowery name in typical IoM fashion.
What value would you place on the proposed Psilencer: 36", S5, AP-, Salvo 8/12, Poisoned (3+)?
I hadn't really figured out the Gatling Psilencer yet. I suspect I'd double the maximum number of shots for the Psilencer, but reduce the range to 24" Gatling Psilencer: 24", S5, AP-, Heavy 12, Poisoned (3+). That way you just double the results you had from the Psilencer's number crunching.
On a separate note: What would you think of Interceptors having Move Through Cover? It would allow them to Shunt into cover without having to take Dangerous Terrain tests.
I'm interested in seeing what you think of the Salvo 8/12 on the Psilencer. I like the idea of giving Poison a needlessly flowery name in typical IoM fashion.
What value would you place on the proposed Psilencer: 36", S5, AP-, Salvo 8/12, Poisoned (3+)?
I hadn't really figured out the Gatling Psilencer yet. I suspect I'd double the maximum number of shots for the Psilencer, but reduce the range to 24" Gatling Psilencer: 24", S5, AP-, Heavy 12, Poisoned (3+). That way you just double the results you had from the Psilencer's number crunching.
On a separate note: What would you think of Interceptors having Move Through Cover? It would allow them to Shunt into cover without having to take Dangerous Terrain tests.
Honestly, I think with that many shots, (which is a bit much - even a Splinter Cannon is only 4/6), Poisoned 4+ is more than sufficient. 3+ is going to outright murder Greater Daemons with the exception of the Bloodthirster, as the other three can only at best ever gain a 31% chance at having a 3+ save. For the LoC/GUO/Kipper, T6/5++ is their main defense.
S5/ap-, Salvo 4/6, Shred would be solid.
And really, Dangerous Terrain isn't really that dangerous anymore... First you need to roll a 1, then you need to fail an armour save. Outside of really bad luck, you'd be challenged to lose more than one or two marines over the course of the game to DT tests.
Bill1138 wrote: I like the latest version of the Psilencer we've compiled here. It serves as a good anti-hoarde weapon and a good anti- Monstrous Creature weapon.
Against Hoard units (T3, 5+),
Stationary/Relentless: (12)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.44 unsaved Wounds
Mobile (6)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 2.96 unsaved Wounds
Against the Typical Daemon (T4+, 5+)
Stationary/Relentless: (12)(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 3.56 unsaved Wounds
Mobile (8)(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 2.37 unsaved Wounds
Against the Typical Space Marine (T4+, 3+)
Stationary/Relentless: (12)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 1.78 unsaved Wounds
Mobile (8)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 1.19 unsaved Wounds
Against the Typical Terminator (T4+, 2+)
Stationary/Relentless: (12)(2/3)(2/3)(1/6) = 0.89 unsaved Wounds
Mobile (8)(2/3)(2/3)(1/6) = 0.59 unsaved Wounds
I rather disagree- I don't particularly care for this incarnation of the Psilencer; it feels like it infringes on the Gatling Psilencer too much. Moreover, I'm personally rather fond of a Force weapon that's a gun, so I'd like to recommend the "dual profile" solution, wherein you can pick either S4+Force or S5+Shred; the former for gibbing stuff, the latter for gunning down infantry.
Experiment 626 wrote: The only big note on the idea of a Poison + Force Psilencer is that Bloodthirsters are actually the only Greater Daemon to get an armour save. The others only get it as a 16% or roughly 36% chance when rolling once or twice on the Greater Gifts table.
Mostly though, Mr. Magic Turkey, Papa Nurgle, and the Kipper pretty much rely on just their base T6 and 5++ for protection. (and then pray for a pair of decent rewards!) Keep in mind too, it's quite often that a DoC Prince will forego the cost of the 3+ armour save in order to keep costs down when going for the winged versions...
Hence, against them, being able to wound on a strait 4+ with an instant kill effect can be brutal. Same goes for all three types of C'tan as well - they only have their natural T7 and 4++.
I can see why a 4+ of some kind would be worse off- but how do you propose to keep a Psilencer effective against T4 and T5 multi-wound infantry models, while not infringing too heavily on MCs? I don't think that there's really a way to word it so that it has equal effectiveness against T4 and T5 infantry models, while reducing effectiveness against T6+.
Experiment 626 wrote: I know there's not a lot of MC's without 3+ or better saves, (I'm honestly not sure about all the new Tyranid gribblies), but I think that since they do exist, Poison + Force can't really be calculated properly to balance against both ends of scale... 10-15pts is fair for example against the majority of 3+ or better save MC's. But against the 4++ and worse versions, you'd probably want an additional +10pts 'tax' since volume of shots + set 4+ to-wound roll will all but insure a wound sneaks through, then Force kicks in, and Boom! Bye-bye 275+ pts (not so)Greater Daemon!
AFAIK, all the Tyranid MCs are 3+ armor. Also, it's important to remember that in order to get a min-size unit of two Psilencers in order to get guarantee kill results on-the-move (either because you DS in, or because you're advancing on an objective, for example) you need two Psilencers, which either requires glass-cannon min-sized Purgation/Purifier squads, or very expensive Strike/GKT/Interceptor/Paladin squads. Is 5 T4/3+ wounds really that hard to remove before it gets into the "danger zone"?
Experiment 626 wrote: I'd rather see a version of Holocaust for Dreads and especially Paladins... Flame that can be spammed by any army capable of massing WC's is hilariously brutal.
I once ran Ahriman in a Rhino and double Flamed from the top hatch... nuked both winged Nurgle Princes among neutering the other squads in range. (admittedly, my rolls were above average) Sure he Periled like a champ! But still, 2 winged Nurgle Princes on their own is close on 500pts just vaporised.
I've even contemplated a CSM list that could run 4 Lv3's and have them all roll on Santic... that alone would've given me 4 psykers with a 61% shot at each of them landing Flame. In a pair of Rhinos for added lolz.
Granted Dreads on their own are slow, but consider that with ally shenanigans, you can get your Dreads and/or Purifiers into Drop Pods for easy massing within prime nuking range.
(and IIRC, can a 10-man Purifier squad still split into Combat Squads when deploying via Drop Pod?)
For anti-tarpitting, which seems to be the main concern for close combat dreads, why not a return to the old Holocaust ability, which laid down the large 5" blast template anywhere on the casting model's base. (potentially even centered right over him for when you're completely surrounded?!)
S5/ap6/Soul Blaze for WC1?
It was awesome back in the 'Hunter 'dex for clearing out masses of weak grunts - I used it regularly with an Inquisitor to run into large blobs, let them kill his retinue (back when it was possible to legally keep IC's from ending up in BtB contact) and then nuking half or more of whatever unit they were fighting.
Worked like a charm!
While returning Holocaust would be nice, I don't foresee it happening. It's also worth noting that we could easily keep it from getting "out of control", as it were, by keeping Dreadnoughts at ML1, and even reducing Purifiers to ML1 instead of 2- this could moderately reduce the amount of WC running in the army, on top of the fact that a Dread isn't going to be likely to cast Cleansing Flame unless it can get into range of something. In order to do that, you need to either bring allied Pods, walk the Dread into range, or pack the Dread into a Stormraven. This is either expensive, ineffective, suicidal, or some combination of all three.
It's also worth noting that Dreads use a, IIRC, 60mm base- 5" is 127mm, centering up will mean that you can catch just one "wave" of dudes- you'll have to either bring in friends, or deal with being held up in combat for multiple turns. That's kind of a problem, since the whole point is "anti-tarpit".
And yes, the Combat Squad rule allows the relevant unit to Combat Squad when exiting a Dedicated Transport; how that works out with an allied Pod... I'm not entirely sure; I'll have to check, I think.
I would also like to throw out another iteration of the Psycannon and Heavy Psycannon:
Spoiler:
Psycannon
36" Salvo 2/3 S6 AP4 Psybane
Psybane: Wounds/damage inflicted by this weapon penalize invulnerable saves by -1; this may stack with Banishment, but may not reduce a save to worse than 6+. Successful invulnerable saves against this weapon must also be re-rolled.
Heavy Psycannon
36" Heavy 6 S6 AP4 Psybane
36" Heavy 1 S6 AP4 Psybane, Shred, Large (5") Blast
The idea is that it's dropped down a bit in raw firepower to allow the introduction of a dedicated anti-armor weapon- likely a melta of some kind- while also making it distinctive and still useful. Also helps alleviate 2++ re-rollable shenanigans, by being able to penalize the save (and stack with Banishment) and also requires successful saves be re-rolled to hopefully fail. The template mode of the Heavy Psycannon getting Shred is to also compensate for the loss of Rending and going to S6 instead of 7.
Other thought: Dreadnoughts with access to the Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incinerator, and Gatling Psilencer as an alternative to, say, a MM or AC?
S5 AP- Shred certainly is an option; 12 shots land around 1.2 wounds on a GUO (not taking FNP into account), but at the same time it'd do less than one wound to a Wraithknight. Interestingly enough, assuming I didn't screw up the math, it'd also do 2.222... wounds to a Riptide (sans FNP). Assuming that the Heavy Psilencer is a 12-shot weapon, this seems about right; enough to seriously hurt without completely maiming the target. On the other hand, it'd also be slightly better at killing MEQ than the Psycannon, which doesn't seem right for an anti-horde weapon. This would, however, let the Psycannon be reimagined as a better anti-armour weapon.
EDIT: Dreadnoughts with Chapter-specific weapons really should be a thing, similarly Razorbacks and Land Raiders really should have an option to field the Chapter-variant weapons as well.
I think the main hangup is people are getting hung up on form over function. They want the Psilencer's profile to look a certain way, or there are certain special rules that they're afraid of.
Force is inherently an anti-Monstrous Creature/Character killer. But the number 1 role the Grey Knights need the Psilencer to fill is anti-hoarde, and the Psilencer can not be made into a proper anti-hoarde weapon and still have Force without being disproportionately good at killing Monstrous Creatures.
That is why I believe the best solution is to have the weapon simply cause enough wounds to handle hoards, and potentially cause enough wounds to the Multi-wound models to kill them, without needing it to be "Instant Death".
My suggestion, compiled from the suggestions I agreed with, fulfills the function.
It causes upwards of 4 unsaved Wounds on T3 units, whereas for tougher units it causes closer to 2-3 unsaved Wounds. It is enough to make Monstrous Creatures cautious, but it isn't a lucky shot that "insta-gibs" a Monstrous Creature, leaving no one fulfilled, both knowing the MC got the short end of the stick.
If there is any mathematical reason why the:
Psilencer: 36", S5, AP-, Salvo 8/12, Poisoned (3+)
Gatling Psilencer: 24", S5, AP-, Heavy 24, Poisoned (3+)
profiles do not fill the roles of Anti-hoarde/MC, or are too disproportionatly powerful, please share.
However, it's getting tedious when a couple individuals say that something is too overpowered, and then give no evidence whatsoever. The Grey Knights have almost no access to Anti-hoarde. The best we have is Cleansing Flame, which is a WC2 9" bubble, that can only be cast by one Elite unit, Crowe, and possibly a couple other HQ's if they roll it. We don't get any of the Baneblade variants. We don't get Torrent AP3 like the Helldrakes. We don't get sheer volume of fire like Orks, or Guard.
The Grey Knights having one weapon that compensates for the drastic shortage of anti-infantry firepower to bring them back into the shooting phase is not broken.
Bill1138 wrote: That is why I believe the best solution is to have the weapon simply cause enough wounds to handle hoards, and potentially cause enough wounds to the Multi-wound models to kill them, without needing it to be "Instant Death".
This is called an 'Incinerator'.
The GK don't lack for anti-infantry firepower, the holes are in fighting heavy infantry (so little AP 1-3 firepower in the Codex) and in fighting heavy vehicles.
Bill1138 wrote: That is why I believe the best solution is to have the weapon simply cause enough wounds to handle hoards, and potentially cause enough wounds to the Multi-wound models to kill them, without needing it to be "Instant Death".
This is called an 'Incinerator'.
The GK don't lack for anti-infantry firepower, the holes are in fighting heavy infantry (so little AP 1-3 firepower in the Codex) and in fighting heavy vehicles.
The Incinerator is great for anti-infantry... if you don't mind waiting until they're within spitting distance. I was talking about a weapon that can thin out tarpits of Zombies, Orks, Conscripts, etc. BEFORE they lock down my unit in close combat for the rest of the game.
Look at it this way. In theory, the reason for the point values on units is so that very different armies can be built, but still be relatively even.
120pts for Grey Knights buys you 1 Strike Squad with a Psilencer, and no other upgrades.
120pts for Astra Militarum buys you 2 Veteran Squads with no upgrades.
If we assume that both should have roughly equal lethality, we can figure out how many wounds the Psilencer should deal. The difficulty with the calculations is that there are so many variables.
20 Veterans have a total of 18 shots between 12 and 24”. They are BS4, which means they hit on 3s, a 2/3 chance. Their lasguns are S3, which means they wound on 5s, a 1/3 chance. Lasguns have no AP so the Strike Squad gets their 3+ save, which is a 1/3 chance of failure.
(18)(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 1.33 unsaved Wounds.
1.33/5 = x/120
X = 32pts removed
Within 12”, the Veterans have 37 shots due to Rapid Fire. Each still has a 2/3 chance to Hit, 1/3 chance to Wound, and a 1/3 chance to be unsaved.
(38)(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 2.81 unsaved Wounds.
2.81/5 = x/120
X = 67.56pts removed
The 4 Grey Knights with Storm Bolters have a total of 8 shots, that hit on 3s, a 2/3 chance. They wound on 3s, a 2/3 chance. And Veterans are typically in cover or embarked on vehicles, so I’ll use the basic 5+ Cover save instead of the 4+ they generally have in my experience (to lower the target number for the Psilencer)
(8)(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 2.37 unsaved Wounds.
2.37/20 = x/120
X = 14.22pts removed
So the difference the Psilencer needs to make up is 17.78 – 53.34pts, And the Veterans being about 6 points each, means to make the two factions' shooting fair, the Psilencer needs to kill between 2.96 and 8.89 Veterans.
The current Psilencer has a heavy 6 Profile, which under these circumstances would almost certainly have moved, resulting in Snap Shots (6)(1/6)(2/3)(2/3) = 0.44 unsaved Wounds, far short of the 3-9 unsaved Wounds needed.
But if we ignore logic and assume the Psilencer was stationary, it then performs thusly. (6)(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 1.77 unsaved Wounds, which is 10.62 points taken. Still far short of the 3-9 Wounds needed to level the playing field.
Currently, 120pts of Grey Knights under nearly optimal conditions, cause 24.84 points of damage to Veterans by shooting, while the Veterans cause around 32-67 points of damage to the Grey Knights.
So the Grey Knights’ shooting is only about 37-78% as effective as the Veterans.
Now let us compare my suggested Psilencer: 36”, S5, AP-, Salvo 8/12, Poisoned (3+)
If it moves, (8)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 2.96 Wounds, which is 17.78 points, which is dead on to the Veterans’ low-end value.
If it is stationary, (12)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.44 Wounds, which is 26.67 points which falls shy of splitting the difference between the Veterans' low and high-end values.
I would say that this proves that as they currently stand, the Grey Knights are in fact, lacking in their anti-infantry, and that my suggestion is balanced to the basic firepower other armies have at their disposal. Now, if you have a better suggestion than this for Heavy Infantry, by all means, share it.
As for Heavy Armor, that is the Psycannon's job, so once that's fixed it will be taken care of.
You didn't add anything to conversation regarding the Psilencer, that is, unless you're saying that it needs to be an AP1-3 anti heavy-Infantry/Armor weapon, which I don't think you are.
so terrible to you? I can only assume that's the case, since you insist on replacing it with something that literally doubles the RoF and confers 3+ Poison.
Also, why is that the Psycannon has the "job" of anti-armor? Why can't it be a general purpose ranged weapon, that penalizes invulnerable saves? Why can't we introduce another specialty weapon that's dedicated to anti-armor duty?
You should answer these questions, and a good answer is not "Psycannons are currently anti-vehicle, so they should stay that way", because right now Psycannons are just plain anti-everything, and they only do the job half-assed, and shouldn't be doing everything anyway.
so terrible to you? I can only assume that's the case, since you insist on replacing it with something that literally doubles the RoF and confers 3+ Poison.
Also, why is that the Psycannon has the "job" of anti-armor? Why can't it be a general purpose ranged weapon, that penalizes invulnerable saves? Why can't we introduce another specialty weapon that's dedicated to anti-armor duty?
You should answer these questions, and a good answer is not "Psycannons are currently anti-vehicle, so they should stay that way", because right now Psycannons are just plain anti-everything, and they only do the job half-assed, and shouldn't be doing everything anyway.
Your method is needlessly complicated, and you haven't shown any flaw in the balance of my proposal, nor have you shown the math on how your proposal performs. My suggestion is based on how the weapon performs, while yours is about how the profile looks. You have given no reason to heed your suggestion as an equivalent or superior option to mine.
The Psycannon has been the workhorse of the Grey Knights since Daemonhunters. The profile has changed each edition, but it remains the Grey Knights' best anti-vehicle option. It isn't the anti-vehicle weapon because I say so. It is because it is and has been for a considerable length of time. And any army that was started before 7th Edition has a plethora of Psycannons modeled on units.
If your proposed new weapon is worse than the Psycannon, then it is useless, and no one will take it. If it out-performs the Psycannon, then all of those Psycannon units are no more useful to their owners than they are now, which means you still didn't fix the problem.
The Grey Knights are a small army, and every unit is expected to fill multiple roles, whereas other armies have the benefit of specializing each unit to a specific role, and don't have to pay the expense of it being margionally capable of performing other roles. The Psycannon is anti-vehicle, but it has some anti-infantry applications, because the Grey Knights can't afford for such an expensive upgrade to only be able to do one thing.
so terrible to you? I can only assume that's the case, since you insist on replacing it with something that literally doubles the RoF and confers 3+ Poison.
Also, why is that the Psycannon has the "job" of anti-armor? Why can't it be a general purpose ranged weapon, that penalizes invulnerable saves? Why can't we introduce another specialty weapon that's dedicated to anti-armor duty?
You should answer these questions, and a good answer is not "Psycannons are currently anti-vehicle, so they should stay that way", because right now Psycannons are just plain anti-everything, and they only do the job half-assed, and shouldn't be doing everything anyway.
Your method is needlessly complicated, and you haven't shown any flaw in the balance of my proposal, nor have you shown the math on how your proposal performs. My suggestion is based on how the weapon performs, while yours is about how the profile looks. You have given no reason to heed your suggestion as an equivalent or superior option to mine.
The Psycannon has been the workhorse of the Grey Knights since Daemonhunters. The profile has changed each edition, but it remains the Grey Knights' best anti-vehicle option. It isn't the anti-vehicle weapon because I say so. It is because it is and has been for a considerable length of time. And any army that was started before 7th Edition has a plethora of Psycannons modeled on units.
If your proposed new weapon is worse than the Psycannon, then it is useless, and no one will take it. If it out-performs the Psycannon, then all of those Psycannon units are no more useful to their owners than they are now, which means you still didn't fix the problem.
The Grey Knights are a small army, and every unit is expected to fill multiple roles, whereas other armies have the benefit of specializing each unit to a specific role, and don't have to pay the expense of it being margionally capable of performing other roles. The Psycannon is anti-vehicle, but it has some anti-infantry applications, because the Grey Knights can't afford for such an expensive upgrade to only be able to do one thing.
Actually, the Psycannon was not in any way an anti-vehicle weapon back in the Daemonhunter codex days... It was actually either 18"/Assault 3 or 36"/Heavy 3, with its shots being S6/ap4. It was essentially, a +1S Heavy Bolter than could move-and-shoot and also nuked all invuln saves. (as there were far, far fewer units who relied entirely upon invulns back then)
It was Ward who obnoxiously made it into a 'better Lascannon' vs. vehicles.
If anything, the Psycannon should go back to its original role of being a S6/multi-shot gun that instead of outright removing an invuln save, either removes all positive modifiers to invulns OR outright drops ALL invulns to a 5+ at base.
- Leave the Psilencer as the gun for nuking multi-wound opponents. (S5 shred/S4 Force + Daemonbane)
- Psycannon goes back to a (likely now) 4 shots, with the invuln knocking ability, and perhaps a rule allowing for 6's to-wound counting as ap2? (slight MEQ/TEQ ability + deal with invuln reliant units)
- Incinerator remains the way to deal with masses of cheap infantry cowering in cover!
Grey Knights however are not really meant to be aces against heavily armoured vehicles... from their inception in 3rd edition as their own Daemonhunters codex, being weak in the anti-tank department has always been their Achilles heel. (just like Daemons, Orks & Tyranids are pretty poop at killing av13+ outside of punching the things)
Grey Knights have always been heavily reliant on allied help from either Marines or Guard to deal with massed armour. Just like Daemons *have* to bring in CSM "friends" to capably deal with av12+ vehicles at range, or Orks deal with Land Raiders & Russes by power klawing them, etc...
This isn't a knock on Grey Knights being unfinished or lacking in internal balance, it's just the nature of the army, and it's always been there.
Bill1138 wrote: Your method is needlessly complicated, and you haven't shown any flaw in the balance of my proposal, nor have you shown the math on how your proposal performs. My suggestion is based on how the weapon performs, while yours is about how the profile looks. You have given no reason to heed your suggestion as an equivalent or superior option to mine.
Needlessly complicated? So, like all the other dual-profile guns in the game, of which the Heavy Psycannon is just one example? Are you trying to insult the intelligence of GK players every, that they are so dumb that they cannot handle a weapon with two profiles?
As far as weapon performance, well, let's see what we have:
Psilencer, S5, Shred:
Spoiler:
Assuming stationary, 6 shots @ BS4, 4 hits
T3 Infantry 4 hits generate ~3.33 wounds, plus an extra ~0.56 wounds from Shred
Total is ~3.89 wounds
6+ Armor: ~3.24 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor: ~2.59 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor: ~1.95 unsaved wounds
T4 Infantry 4 hits generate ~2.67 wounds, plus an extra ~0.89 wounds from Shred
Total is ~3.56 wounds
6+ Armor: ~2.97 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor: ~2.37 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor: ~1.78 unsaved wounds
Your proposal of a Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison (3+) Psilencer is as follows:
Spoiler:
Assuming stationary, 12 shots @ BS4, 8 hits
T3 Infantry 8 hits generate ~6.66 wounds
Total is ~6.66 wounds
6+ Armor: ~5.55 unsaved wounds
5+ Armor: ~4.44 unsaved wounds
4+ Armor: ~3.33 unsaved wounds
So we see that S5+Shred isn't actually that far off from straight S5+Poison (3+) even though the Shred profile has half as many shots. Against T3 infantry the extra RoF of your proposed Poison Psilencer will net around one to two extra unsaved wounds, but against T4 the gap closes even further. Granted, you could take two of your Psilencers and get even better performance, but I think that you're ultimately scaling the Psilencer in a way that doesn't suit it- As it so happens, the S5+Shred profile actually has better wounding potential against T5 targets- while Poison (3+) guarantees a 3+ to-Wound roll, S5+Shred will statistically get a wounding rate of ~75%, as compared to ~66-67% for S5+Poison (3+).
There's also the fact that, at present, weapons with a RoF above 10 are incredibly rare, and I don't think it would be well-received for the GKs to get a fairly basic infantry weapon that's S5, can pump out 8-12 shots per turn, and has 3+ Poison. Most analogues top out at around 4-6 shots per turn, and weapons that use the Poison trait and have a 3+ or better Poison roll are incredibly rare as well- most of them, IIRC, tend to be combat weapons, or short-ranged pistols, rather than 36" range murderbeasts.
There's also two other things I find better about my suggestion:
1) Being able to choose S5+Shred for anti-horde infantry duty, or S4+Force for killing median save multi-wound models is a great way to give versatility, something you seem to be adamant that GK infantry should have.
2) You don't need to roll as many dice at any given time. Shred does give re-rolls to wound, admittedly, but I'd rather have re-rolls than have to roll a bucket of dice just for the Psilencer in the squad.
Oh, and before I forget, if the basic Psilencer is Salvo 8/12... does that mean we kick the Gatling Psilencer of the DK all the way up to an enormous twenty-four shots- which, incidentally, makes it even better than an actual battle tank weapon?
Bill1138 wrote: The Psycannon has been the workhorse of the Grey Knights since Daemonhunters. The profile has changed each edition, but it remains the Grey Knights' best anti-vehicle option. It isn't the anti-vehicle weapon because I say so. It is because it is and has been for a considerable length of time. And any army that was started before 7th Edition has a plethora of Psycannons modeled on units.
The Psycannon has been the workhorse of the GKs because it's been either the best option or the only ranged weapon upgrade that GK infantry could take. The original profile was, in fact, an enormously gakky anti-vehicle weapon. S6 with 3 shots wasn't even considered AV when it was introduced. It's still not great AV, and generally only works in certain armies because they can spam assloads of it.
The oldest incarnation that I can remember used the following profile:
Psycannon 18" Assault 3 S6 AP4
36" Heavy 3 S6 AP4
*Invulnerable Saves may not be taken against the Psycannon
In what world is that a "good" anti-vehicle weapon?
Bill1138 wrote: If your proposed new weapon is worse than the Psycannon, then it is useless, and no one will take it.
Except the definition of "worse" seems to be somewhere around "I hate it", "It's not a Psycannon", "It's dumb", "It doesn't due the things a Psycannon does". By that metric, I think that Psycannons in their current state are the worst weapon in the game, because they do not conform to the initial concepts of Psycannons that I accepted when I first looked at PDF copy of a Daemonhunters army book- which GW at one time released for free. If only they still did things like that...
In any case, my goal is to create a distinctive, focused weapon system that is optimized for killing vehicles, and is reasonably effective at fighting MCs as well.
Bill1138 wrote: If it out-performs the Psycannon, then all of those Psycannon units are no more useful to their owners than they are now, which means you still didn't fix the problem.
Given the above stated goal of a distinctive, focused weapon that is optimized toward a particular role, then I disagree- Psycannons would still be better for general purpose, as they should remain moderate RoF and Strength, while the proposed anti-armor weapon would be very focused and specialized; you don't take psychic meltaguns to fight Guardsmen, after all.
It's also worth noting that, as far as GKTs/Paladins go, Psycannons are still the best option. For PAGKs, Psycannons are only bad due to the fact that Salvo rules are poorly designed.
Bill1138 wrote: The Grey Knights are a small army, and every unit is expected to fill multiple roles, whereas other armies have the benefit of specializing each unit to a specific role, and don't have to pay the expense of it being margionally capable of performing other roles. The Psycannon is anti-vehicle, but it has some anti-infantry applications, because the Grey Knights can't afford for such an expensive upgrade to only be able to do one thing.
So in other words, GKs are an Elite Generalist army, similar to regular Marines, only GKs are more Elite than regular Marines. The problem with your line of thought is that currently generalist units are bad, and not only that but there's a tendency for even somewhat generalized units to be equipped toward a focused role.
GKs are a generally small army, and often smaller than most. We all realize that. But having a weapon that is specialized towards a task, rather than a gun that does many things sort of well and one thing reasonably well (IE, the current Psycannon) is, quite frankly, bad game design. You don't see other armies complaining that their dedicated anti-vehicle weapons are only good at killing a very small subset of enemies (IE, vehicles), do you?
I mean, where are the complaints that Haywire Blasters are terrible at killing infantry? Or that Heavy Bolters can't hurt heavy armor? Or that Grav-guns are terrible at killing low-save infantry models?
No other army in the game can get a weapon which not only could be expected to, but is demanded to, engage any target in the game with reasonable success. I do not see why we should keep Pyscannons as an anti-vehicle weapon, when such weapons are invariably specialized and limited in application.
Experiment 626 wrote: [Grey Knights however are not really meant to be aces against heavily armoured vehicles... from their inception in 3rd edition as their own Daemonhunters codex, being weak in the anti-tank department has always been their Achilles heel. (just like Daemons, Orks & Tyranids are pretty poop at killing av13+ outside of punching the things)
Grey Knights have always been heavily reliant on allied help from either Marines or Guard to deal with massed armour. Just like Daemons *have* to bring in CSM "friends" to capably deal with av12+ vehicles at range, or Orks deal with Land Raiders & Russes by power klawing them, etc...
This isn't a knock on Grey Knights being unfinished or lacking in internal balance, it's just the nature of the army, and it's always been there.
However, I also do not see why GKs cannot have a short/mid range weapon (18-24" maximum) that is specialized toward killing armor. There are no vehicle-heavy armies which cannot project substantial firepower to 24". Most armies that are not vehicle heavy can still shoot well at 24".
I do not see why GKs have to be limited to punching AV14 things to death, when I find it unreasonable to expect that it will always be possible to get into combat with a vehicle (protip: it won't).
It's the same kind of argument that many Tau players apply to the Riptide: it's okay that it's so deadly at shooting, because it folds like a piece of wet cardboard in combat (of course, it doesn't really fold in combat either, so....)
Whiskey144, I expect this may be the last time I address you before potentially hitting that all too inviting "Ignore" button. It really depends on how you respond.
The Grey Knights have fewer units than most other armies. You acknowledged this. If we have fewer units, that means the other Codexes have MORE units. If they have more units, and those units are each specialized to specific roles, then they can make good use of specialized weapons that compliment the role the unit is designed for. Are you keeping up with this?
The Grey Knights have FEWER units, which means they have to pull double duty. Every Unit has a combination of abilities and Gear that makes them margionally capable of filling multiple roles. This makes them more expensive than the most similar units in other Codexes, which is why the Grey Knights are such a small army compared the other Codexes. Are you still with me?
If I'm paying the points for a unit to be able to fulfill multiple roles, then paying extra for a special weapon that only fills one roll, I am paying extra to remove value from the unit. The weapons the Grey Knights need, need to fill multiple roles so that they are not removing value from the unit they are placed in. This is not an issue with other Codexes, because they have options to load up specialized units with all anti-vehicle, or all anti-infantry weapons. The Grey Knights do not have this benefit.
Imagine for a moment you bought a car, but it was a special car that could fly up high in the sky, as well as skim through the shallows of the ocean. Now, supose someone offored you the chance to purchase an upgrade on your already expensive car, that would allow you to dive to the bottom of the ocean, but would no longer permit the car to fly. You paid for all sorts of special things related to the car being able to fly, but that one upgrade made all of that money wasted. Are you getting this yet?
The Grey Knights NEED the versatility of the Psycannon to be viable, whereas the different circumstances of the other Codexes means they DON'T NEED the same versatility in their weapons, allowing them to specialize their units.
You've repeatedly been making false comparisons between the Grey Knights and other Codexes which really have nothing to do with anything regarding the Grey Knights' internal balance.
As for your numbers on your proposition.
You only did T3-4, and only up to a 4+ save. You may have missed this, but Monstrous Creatures go clear up to at least T8 with the Wraithknight, and plenty of units have access to 3+ or even 2+ saves.
Your suggestion is roughly less than 2/3 of the effectiveness of my proposition, which as I showed was already on the low end of what the Grey Knights needed to be competitive in the shooting phase, meaning your profile falls short. And that's just against weak units with poor saves. If you look at the weapons through better saves or higher Toughness, you'll see that mine holds pretty strong while yours tapers off into nothing about halfway through. My proposition has the versatility the Grey Knights need. Yours does not.
I already told you to not get hung up over what the profile looks like. Your focus should be over how it performs in the game. Ultimately, for game Ballance, the "FUNCTION" is important, which is what my proposition has. The "FORM" is not, which primarily what you've been arguing.
The combination of stats and rules I proposed is uncommon, but they came from observation of what rules result in the desired function, and still fit the Fluff. The Emperor personally saw that the Grey Knights were given the best and rarest weapons and gear available to the Imperium of Man, so this weapon being highly irregular is not to be unexpected. The only oddity which someone else suggested is that the name of the "Poisoned" rule seems out of place, but can be easily amended by giving it a new flowery or pseudo-latin name, while doing the same thing. This wouldn't be the first Codex to do that.
The Trouble with Grey Knights having everything limited to short range is that each of our models is more expensive than other codexes equivalents, yet we die just as easily. I can load up a PAGK to about 30pts, and he'll still die exactly as easily as a basic model the Space Marines may field for 14 points or so. Other armies have a lot of Melta, Plasma, or other equivalent weapons that would ignore the Grey Knights' armor, so they can easily die before they get a chance to use all of that expensive gear they purchased.
This is why the Grey Knights need some ranged options, to soften areas for the short-ranged unit to go in. without it being suicide. And as per my suggestions, a couple weapons with a 36" range statistically able to kill a few models from a single unit is not going to break the game. My propositions have the versatility the Grey Knights need, and the effectiveness to allow them to participate in the shooting phase.
Gatling Psilencer: 24", S5, AP-, Heavy 24, Poisoned (3+)
Heavy Psycannon: 24", S7, AP4, Heavy 6, Rending
If you're going to compare something's firepower to a Tank, perhapse you should actually look at its cost relative to the tank you're comparing it to. If a Dreadknight costs more than the tank you're comparing it to, then just maybe, it should be able to do a bit more than that Tank, you know, so it isn't horrendously overpriced.
In case you don't understand what Bill is saying, I'll toss it another way.
Grey Knight models pay for power weapons and stormbolters.
We give those up when we take a special weapon, such as the psyguns or incinerator. So while on paper it looks like we only spend 5 points for an incinerator, it really is 11 points total and the melee advantage.
So we should be much more effective in the shooting phase than as we give up an opportunity cost.
I think the disconnect here is that the OP seems to be aiming to bring the GK codex up to he point that it can:
1) Have every unit be equally viable when compared to the currently held 'best units' in the book.
2. Be able to field highly competitive lists drawn solely from within Codex: Grey Knights, and be able to compete on the same level as other top end lists typically seen in highly competitive Tournaments and/or 'Winning is #1 priority' metas...
At least, that's how the thread is reading IMHO.
Unfortunately, the problem with this kind of approach is that outside of Eldar & Decurion Necrons, no one ever really plays truly "Competitive" lists with just 1 codex anymore...
Marines for example tend towards the likes of Gravbike White Scars + Knights/GK's/other. IH's & Fists bring Draigo + Dreadknight & occasionally Loth for GoI based Centstars. GK's themselves bring Tiggy + Centstar or SW's for drop podding...
Bringing a single book up to the point it is entirely 100% self sufficient and can compete top level on it's own only ends up with a monstrosity like 5th ed Grey Knights or 7th ed Daemons of Chaos. (or the current Decurion Necrons, which few people seem to enjoy fighting.)
Trying to aim purely for near perfect internal balance is likewise impossible, as there will always be one or two or more "best" options, which power gamers will spam to no end...
The 5th ed GK codex was hailed as being the most internally balanced book for example, yet still, all we saw for the most part was still just 3 main lists that utilised less than half the book.
Your "fixes" for the Psilencer and Psycannon for example...
Yes you've vastly improved the Psilencer, but the Psycannon is equally bumped up in power, and because of S7 + Rending, it's still leagues better than the Psilencer overall, due to it being an outright, 'catch all' problem solver.
Despite getting more shots overall, the Psycannon is still the same range, negates 4+ saves, can double-out T3 (combos w/Enfeeble), S7 + weight of fire neuters av11/12 quite effectively, still wounds most MC's on 3's AND Rending provides ready counters to both av13/14 and MEQ's/TEQ's...
There's literally nothing the Psycannon can't do, hence, it's a no-brainer choice to take over the Psilencer, as GK's don't need help killing masses of GEQ's/OEQ's.
If I were making a purely 100% "Competitive" list with these changes, I'd still only look at the Psycannon, simply because when going purely for perfect optimisation, redundancy always trumps specialisation.
Instead of having 1 unit that's solely focused on killing just MC's & GEQ blobs and will fall flat against anything else, I can simply give every single unit the ability to equally counter everything from GEQ hordes, to MEQ/TEQ units, to MC's, to vehicles of any configuration since my S7/Rending gun is the perfect cure-all.
Experiment 626 wrote: I think the disconnect here is that the OP seems to be aiming to bring the GK codex up to he point that it can:
1) Have every unit be equally viable when compared to the currently held 'best units' in the book.
2. Be able to field highly competitive lists drawn solely from within Codex: Grey Knights, and be able to compete on the same level as other top end lists typically seen in highly competitive Tournaments and/or 'Winning is #1 priority' metas...
At least, that's how the thread is reading IMHO.
Unfortunately, the problem with this kind of approach is that outside of Eldar & Decurion Necrons, no one ever really plays truly "Competitive" lists with just 1 codex anymore...
Marines for example tend towards the likes of Gravbike White Scars + Knights/GK's/other. IH's & Fists bring Draigo + Dreadknight & occasionally Loth for GoI based Centstars. GK's themselves bring Tiggy + Centstar or SW's for drop podding...
Bringing a single book up to the point it is entirely 100% self sufficient and can compete top level on it's own only ends up with a monstrosity like 5th ed Grey Knights or 7th ed Daemons of Chaos. (or the current Decurion Necrons, which few people seem to enjoy fighting.)
Trying to aim purely for near perfect internal balance is likewise impossible, as there will always be one or two or more "best" options, which power gamers will spam to no end...
The 5th ed GK codex was hailed as being the most internally balanced book for example, yet still, all we saw for the most part was still just 3 main lists that utilised less than half the book.
The current problem with the game, is that each codex is so internally broken that they can hardly field a competative list without abusing the allies system, combining special rules between Codexes that were not intended to be used together.
If each Codex is balanced internally, and the allies matrix is fixed to prevent some of the nonsense we're seeing at the moment, then it is perfectly possible to create a scenario where a single-Codex army is just as viable as allied armies.
This isn't about making the Grey Knights "top-tier". As we see with the current Daemons, being balanced while everyone else is in the crapper makes an army top-tier. Ideally, if every Codex recieves the same balance, then the tier system dissolves, and we're left with armies of comperable power but different play stiles.
Your "fixes" for the Psilencer and Psycannon for example...
Yes you've vastly improved the Psilencer, but the Psycannon is equally bumped up in power, and because of S7 + Rending, it's still leagues better than the Psilencer overall, due to it being an outright, 'catch all' problem solver.
Despite getting more shots overall, the Psycannon is still the same range, negates 4+ saves, can double-out T3 (combos w/Enfeeble), S7 + weight of fire neuters av11/12 quite effectively, still wounds most MC's on 3's AND Rending provides ready counters to both av13/14 and MEQ's/TEQ's...
There's literally nothing the Psycannon can't do, hence, it's a no-brainer choice to take over the Psilencer, as GK's don't need help killing masses of GEQ's/OEQ's.
If I were making a purely 100% "Competitive" list with these changes, I'd still only look at the Psycannon, simply because when going purely for perfect optimisation, redundancy always trumps specialisation.
Instead of having 1 unit that's solely focused on killing just MC's & GEQ blobs and will fall flat against anything else, I can simply give every single unit the ability to equally counter everything from GEQ hordes, to MEQ/TEQ units, to MC's, to vehicles of any configuration since my S7/Rending gun is the perfect cure-all.
Daemons have AV13. The Psycannon cannot be made made any less able to handle vehicles without essentially neutering the army. The reason it has the profile it does, is because the ANY army has to be at least marginally able to handle vehicles, and the Grey Knights with their generalist build cannot have a weapon over-specialized to the point of only being able to do one thing, because that wastes the rest of the points in wargear the models have (which we do not have the option to drop for a price decrease)
The primary reason we aren't seeing any Strike Squads or Purgation Squads is because the Psycannon and Psilencer both are not competatively useable on them, and Purifiers are still around because of ML2 and Cleansing Flame, while the Interceptors have mobility the Grey Knights typically lack.
As for the Psycannon being better than the Pilencer for all purposes, have you looked at how they mathematically compare? Here's a few rough benchmarks from hoarde units up to Monstorus Creatures and Vehicles.
The Psycannon is clearly the only option against vehicles, but against Wound models the Psilencer clearly takes the lead, in some instances being at least twice as effective as the Psycannon.
The Psilencer is the best Anti-Wound option.
The Psycannon is the best Anti-AV option.
So you may only take the Psycannon in your lists, but if you do, you will not have nearly as much anti-infantry or anti-Monstrous Creature capability as someone who takes Psilencers.
Bill1138 wrote: Whiskey144, I expect this may be the last time I address you before potentially hitting that all too inviting "Ignore" button. It really depends on how you respond.
Oh, I'm quaking in my baby seal leather boots!
Bill1138 wrote: *snipped generally fallacious and/or irrelevant argumentation*
Yeah, see, here's the problem. The profile you're proposing? It's the kind of thing that is never found on widely-available infantry weapons. Let's consider a contemporary, the Splinter Cannon:
36" Salvo 4/6 S(X) AP5 Poison (4+)
Straight off the bat, the primary automatic support weapon of the Dark Eldar, a faction/army that is renowned for their use of poison armaments has a worse Poison roll than your Psilencer proposal. It also has half the RoF- as I mentioned, there currently do not exist infantry weapons, especially widely available ones (and in a GK list, a Psilencer is widely available), with a RoF above 6. Not only that, but Salvo 8/12 with S5 makes it ridiculous good at glancing light armor to death, and with the great options for deployment and mobility that the GK army has- widespread DS and Interceptor Squad shunts, for example- you can murder light armor using what is ostensibly an "anti-horde" weapon. Let's look at some numbers:
vs AV10:
~1.78 HPs, plus a roll on the damage table
vs AV11:
~0.89 HPs removed, no damage table roll
That sounds pretty unimpressive, right? Well, think about the fact that that is one weapon. Say you took an Interceptor Squad, Combat Squad them with 5 bolter dudes for objective grabbing and the other 5 having two Psilencers with your proposed profile. You'll now remove around ~3.56 HPseven if you move. Which means that you're killing a light vehicle every turn, or you're flanking something and shooting it in the back. Every turn.
That's actually a frighteningly efficient anti-vehicle killer when you consider how mobile some units can be in the GK list, and for what is supposedly an "anti-horde" weapon. But let's dig more into it:
The closest equivalent weapon to your proposal is the "Taurox Gatling Cannon", which has the following profile:
24" Heavy 10 S4 AP-
It is only available on the IG Taurox Prime transport, in a twin-linked mounting. The Taurox Prime is an AV11/10/10, 3HP transport vehicle that can hold 10 mans, and has four fire points. It is also a Fast vehicle, though it isn't a Skimmer. A Taurox Prime so equipped costs 90 points, for a chassis that is incredibly fragile and can only be taken for Tempestus Scions and Scion Command Squads. On average, the weapon will kill ~4 T3/5+ infantry.
Four. It is only able to manage that many because of twin-linking. In fact, the "exact" number is 3.96 dead T3/5+ infantry per turn. Technically speaking, your proposal kills almost 12.5% more infantry per turn- and it's not twin-linked for extra accuracy, so the "ceiling" for maximum potential lethality hasn't even been reached. The Taurox Gatling Cannon is pretty much at maximum efficiency, and kills 3.96 T3/5+ infantry per turn. Your Psilencer profile kills more and isn't even close to "maximum potential"- throw in twin-linking, for example, and and suddenly your killing ~5.93 T3/5+ infantry per turn, 50% more than the Taurox Gatling Cannon.
I don't understand how you do not realize that it is not acceptable for a widely-available infantry weapon to perform a rare, expensive armament. I mean, you're getting near to Punisher Gatling Cannon levels of firepower here, and that level of "dakka", if you will, is reserved only for very particularly types of platforms- things like artillery models, vehicles, and MCs.
Bill1138 wrote: If you're going to compare something's firepower to a Tank, perhapse you should actually look at its cost relative to the tank you're comparing it to. If a Dreadknight costs more than the tank you're comparing it to, then just maybe, it should be able to do a bit more than that Tank, you know, so it isn't horrendously overpriced.
A LR Punisher costs 160 points with a set of HB sponsons to maximize the amount of S5 shooting it has. With the addition of Relic Plating, Recovery Gear, and Fire Barrels to deter assaults (it's a 24" range main gun, it's going to be getting into assault range), it now costs ~170 points. Most often, not only will the LR Punisher be taken with a Tank Commander aboard- which puts it at a minimum of 200 points base- it'll often be taken with Pask aboard, who puts the tank clear up at 240.
And that's not counting the fact that a Tank Commander unit isn't just the command tank, but also a second Leman Russ tank- Even without Pask, and using the cheapest "buddy tank", you're looking at an investment of around 320 points minimum.
It's also important to realize that with your profile change, the Dreadknight has a far superior weapon system- it gets four more shots, BS4 by default (rather than requiring what is effectively a 150 point upgrade just to have BS4 instead of BS3), and Poison (3+). Not only that, but a Dreadknight has the option for the Personal Teleporter, making it a Jump MC and giving it the option to perform a 30" shunt move once per game. Combined with the durability advantages of a MC compared to a vehicle- namely that it is far more difficult to one-shot, loses no effectiveness for taking damage, and cannot actually be rendered impotent by shooting the primary weapon off- and that is pretty much on the same level as a Riptide as far as brokenness goes.
As it stands, DKs are by far not overpriced. Quite frankly I would consider Dreadknights to be very barely balanced- the profile that they carry is incredibly potent, but the armaments that the platform can carry force it into the teeth of all the weapons that can do the most damage to it, like Grav, Plasma, and even Melta.
Quickjager wrote: In case you don't understand what Bill is saying, I'll toss it another way.
Grey Knight models pay for power weapons and stormbolters.
We give those up when we take a special weapon, such as the psyguns or incinerator. So while on paper it looks like we only spend 5 points for an incinerator, it really is 11 points total and the melee advantage.
So we should be much more effective in the shooting phase than as we give up an opportunity cost.
However, in comparison to other models, that's still an awesome deal- a Heavy Flamer is S5/AP4, and typically costs 10 points for most Imperial infantry models that can take one. An Incinerator costs 5 points from the armory, plus the roughly 5-6 points you've mentioned for giving up the Stormbolter, force weapon, and combat ability.
An Incinerator, however, is S6, and Soul Blaze. The latter is admittedly not that useful- it generally requires a lot of dice to really leverage. Strength 6 though? Yeah, that's freakin' amazing. I mean, IIRC the new Skitarii Sicarian infantry (the Sicarian Infiltrator and Sicarian Ruststalker) are all T3/2W/4+, so not only do you bypass their cover thanks to be a Template, and their armor thanks to AP4, but you also double them out thanks to S6! Against single-wound T3 infantry, you'll get the benefit of denying FNP rolls.
I'd say that that would make an Incinerator, in terms of raw value, worth 15 points. So not only are GKs getting a 5-6 point discount for giving up their Stormbolter, Force weapon, and ability in close combat, but they're still getting a 4-5 point discount on top of that!
Another example is Psycannons, which cost 15 points in the GK armory. Adding the 5-6 points you mentioned makes Psycannons worth 20-21 points; however, the Assault Cannon, which is the closest weapon, profile-wise, to the Psycannon, is S6; S7 is a hugely useful jump, and probably, again, worth 5 points. So a Psycannon is probably worth around 25 points, but GKs are absorbing 5 points of that in the loss of the Stormbolter and Force weapon, and getting the other 5 points taken off with no penalty!
Adding to that, GKTs get to keep their Force weapons, likely adding in even more of a discount to GK weapons!
Bill1138 wrote: Daemons have AV13. The Psycannon cannot be made made any less able to handle vehicles without essentially neutering the army. The reason it has the profile it does, is because the ANY army has to be at least marginally able to handle vehicles, and the Grey Knights with their generalist build cannot have a weapon over-specialized to the point of only being able to do one thing, because that wastes the rest of the points in wargear the models have (which we do not have the option to drop for a price decrease)
The primary reason we aren't seeing any Strike Squads or Purgation Squads is because the Psycannon and Psilencer both are not competatively useable on them, and Purifiers are still around because of ML2 and Cleansing Flame, while the Interceptors have mobility the Grey Knights typically lack.
Part of the problem with PAGK is that, like most MEQ, they aren't particularly survivable in the current "spam S6/7=win" meta. Purifiers get into lists because of ML2- so they make better WC batteries- and Cleansing Flame, which is awesome. Interceptors, again, have some mobility thanks to a 30" shunt move, and so also get a pass... to a degree.
Unfortunately I very rarely see lists with either of these two units anyways- mostly its GKTs, a Librarian, some DKs, and then whatever's left is usually used to either bulk these units out or upgrade equipment, or just get more of these units.
Bill1138 wrote: Daemons have AV13. The Psycannon cannot be made made any less able to handle vehicles without essentially neutering the army. The reason it has the profile it does, is because the ANY army has to be at least marginally able to handle vehicles, and the Grey Knights with their generalist build cannot have a weapon over-specialized to the point of only being able to do one thing, because that wastes the rest of the points in wargear the models have (which we do not have the option to drop for a price decrease)
No, it's because Matt Ward had his faults and sometimes he fethed up and got things wrong. Psycannons are one of the things he got wrong- deal with it. They never should have been Rending in the first place, and considering he introduced the Psilencer, I don't see why he couldn't have also introduced some kind of fancy psychic meltagun, or even given the Psilencer a melta mode. For most part I think the guy made good crunch*, but he's only human and sometimes he messed up.
As previously mentioned, GKs are actually getting two discounts on their special weapons:
1) They get a discount out of losing their Stormbolters and Force weapons.
2) They get a discount out of thin air, because reasons.
Truthfully, I find this to be acceptable... for the most part. Psycannons, are, IMO, a huge offender of this, and also a huge reason for why people hated GKs so much. Most of your changes would make people hate GKs even more, and generally end up with most GK players being stigmatized for their choice of army and perhaps even cause those players to not actually get games as people refuse to play against them.
*Ward's problems with crunch seem to be occasional mistakes, realistically speaking- his 5th ed Marine book was actually very well balanced against its competition, IMO. Fluff though... they should really have kept Ward away from the fluff with a 10 or 12 foot pole. He has some ideas that have potential- Draigo and Crowe are both pretty cool- it's just that he isn't good at writing the background. It's a shame too, because Draigo is actually a tragic figure when you think through the character and his situation, it's just Ward didn't write him very well so he comes off as being "super-duper Gary Stu who kills daemons and doesn't afraid of anything", instead of the tragedy and symbolism that he represents. This aside, now returning to our regularly scheduled program:
In any case, I want to zero in on this:
Bill1138 wrote: Daemons have AV13. The Psycannon cannot be made made any less able to handle vehicles without essentially neutering the army.
There's a way to fix this. It's called giving the GKs some kind of AV weapon. A specialty melta, would IMO, suit the GKs the best.
Bill1138 wrote: As for the Psycannon being better than the Pilencer for all purposes, have you looked at how they mathematically compare? Here's a few rough benchmarks from hoarde units up to Monstorus Creatures and Vehicles.
*snip maths*
AV13, 5++ (Soulgrinder) Psilencer: cannot harm it.
The Psycannon is clearly the only option against vehicles, but against Wound models the Psilencer clearly takes the lead, in some instances being at least twice as effective as the Psycannon.
No, it's clearly a gakky option. "Good" AV comes in two forms:
1) That which can reliably hull things out
2) That which can reliably penetrate armor
Your numbers are wrong; it is, in fact, the case that your Psilencer proposal is actually equal in effectiveness vs AV10 targets, when compared to the Psycannon.
Bill1138 wrote: The Psilencer is the best Anti-Wound option.
The Psycannon is the best Anti-AV option.
So you may only take the Psycannon in your lists, but if you do, you will not have nearly as much anti-infantry or anti-Monstrous Creature capability as someone who takes Psilencers.
It's a good thing horde infantry are not common at all, since footslogging hordes are generally gak in the current "spam S6/7=win" meta, then, isn't it. It's also a good thing that Psycannons can still reliably wound most MCs anyways, and that the numbers they'll be taken in completely alleviate the problem of MCs.
Oh, and the fact that realistically, only a small number of MCs are actually useful and/or awesome, and the relevant models are always one per slot.
When it comes down to it Bill, you and I have very different opinions on what balance is, informed on particular viewpoints:
For myself, I am considering this from a high-level game design perspective- IE, what are the ripple effects. It's why, while I would like S5+Force for Psilencers, I recognize that that is not a particularly great idea and should be set aside as a method to make Psilencers viable- the ripple effects (IE, the invalidation of most multi-wound infantry models) are simply unacceptable, even if the thought process behind the change is reasonable.
When I look at balancing Psilencers, I look at what the equivalents are, and how it is possible to make a balanced option within the confines of existing precedents, fluff, and the current mechanics. And when I see your proposed profile, I see something that is horrendously broken.
To that end, here is my next iteration on Psilencers, Psycannons, Incinerators, and my first iterations on Nemesis Force weapons. Before I start in on that, I want to take a quick detour to look at GK infantry, and also revisit and address this:
Bill1138 wrote: [120pts for Grey Knights buys you 1 Strike Squad with a Psilencer, and no other upgrades.
120pts for Astra Militarum buys you 2 Veteran Squads with no upgrades.
If we assume that both should have roughly equal lethality, we can figure out how many wounds the Psilencer should deal. The difficulty with the calculations is that there are so many variables.
Spoiler:
20 Veterans have a total of 20 shots between 12 and 24”. They are BS4, which means they hit on 3s, a 2/3 chance. Their lasguns are S3, which means they wound on 5s, a 1/3 chance. Lasguns have no AP so the Strike Squad gets their 3+ save, which is a 1/3 chance of failure.
(20)(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 1.48 unsaved Wounds.
1.48/5 = x/120
X = 35.52pts removed
Within 12”, the Veterans have 40 shots due to Rapid Fire. Each still has a 2/3 chance to Hit, 1/3 chance to Wound, and a 1/3 chance to be unsaved.
(40)(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 2.96 unsaved Wounds.
2.96/5 = x/120
X = 71.11pts removed
The 4 Grey Knights with Storm Bolters have a total of 8 shots, that hit on 3s, a 2/3 chance. They wound on 3s, a 2/3 chance. And Veterans are typically in cover or embarked on vehicles, so I’ll use the basic 5+ Cover save instead of the 4+ they generally have in my experience (to lower the target number for the Psilencer)
(8)(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 2.37 unsaved Wounds.
2.37/20 = x/120
X = 14.22pts removed
So the difference the Psilencer needs to make up is 21.3 – 56.89pts, And the Veterans being about 6 points each, means to make the two units’ shooting fair, the Psilencer needs to kill between 3.55 and 9.48 Veterans.
The current Psilencer has a heavy 6 Profile, which under these circumstances would almost certainly have moved, resulting in Snap Shots (6)(1/6)(2/3)(2/3) = 0.44 unsaved Wounds, far short of the 4-9 unsaved Wounds needed.
But if we ignore logic and assume the Psilencer was stationary, it then performs thusly. (6)(2/3)(2/3)(2/3) = 1.77 unsaved Wounds, which is 10.62 points taken. Still far short of the 4-9 Wounds needed to level the playing field.
Currently, 120pts of Grey Knights under nearly optimal conditions, cause 24.84 points of damage to Veterans by shooting, while the Veterans cause around 35-71 points of damage to the Grey Knights.
So the Grey Knights’ shooting is only about 35-75% as effective as the Veterans.
Now let us compare my suggested Psilencer: 36”, S5, AP-, Salvo 8/12, Poisoned (3+)
If it moves, (8)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 2.96 Wounds, which is 17.78 points, which is pretty close to the 21.3pts for the Veterans’ low-end value.
If it is stationary, (12)(2/3)(5/6)(2/3) = 4.44 Wounds, which is 26.67 points which is still just above the balance for the Veterans’ low-end value.
I would say that this proves that as they currently stand, the Grey Knights are in fact, lacking in their anti-infantry, and that my suggestion is balanced to the basic firepower other armies have at their disposal. Now, if you have a better suggestion than this for Heavy Infantry, by all means, share it.
Your comparison, is, for one, wrong. IG Veterans are armed with 9 lasguns; the sergeant carries a laspistol, which is 12" S3 AP- Pistol, and so only provides one shot at 0-12", and nothing at 12-24".
Two squads of IG in Rapid Fire range will produce 36 lasgun shots and 2 laspistol shots. All told, this is 38 S3/AP- shots. Let's run some numbers, shall we?
Spoiler:
IG Vets, BS4, no upgrades
18 Lasguns, 2 Laspistols, Rapid Fire range:
38 shots @ BS4, produces ~25.35 hits, and ~8.44 wounds
8.44 wounds vs 3+ armor is ~2.81 unsaved wounds
So, outside of Rapid Fire range, we get these results:
So while the numbers were off, they were close- but still, they were off. Here's the thing though- in order to actually get good results, the IG player has to bring two squads and get them to Rapid Fire range- and even with the Grenadiers doctrine for 4+ armor, T3/4+ armor infantry are just not survivable. Not only that, but they're also very slow.
In any case, let's look at what happens if the Strike Squad shoots first, with no special weapon of any kind:
10 shots is 6.67 hits, which is then ~4.45 wounds;
5+ Armor: ~4.45 unsaved wounds, Vets take almost 50% casualties, Ld check required
5+ Cover: ~2.97 unsaved wounds, Vets take 30% casualties, Ld check required
4+ Save: ~2.23 unsaved wounds, Vets take ~20-30% casualties, Ld check likely
So we see that even without an upgrade, the min-size Strike Squad is still quite lethal to their Veteran nemeses. Not only that, but GKs aren't really an assault-y army. Sure, they get Force Weapons for everybody, but they're mostly going to be stuck in combat not really killing anything due to low attack volume. But they can shoot at anywhere from 0-24" with full effect from their basic weapons. Going to 36"+Salvo on their longer-ranged specials means that they want to sit in a sweet spot of 18". For giggles though, let's see what happens with a Strike Squad that has a current Psilencer:
So we see that there's improvement gained- maybe not a lot, but the big benefit is that when moving around, at 18" (IE, half-range for 36" Salvo) we're getting almost the same effectiveness as a current Heavy 6 Psilencer- I'd say that that is a huge improvement.
Now, insofar as the next iteration I'd like to propose for GK specialty weapons (and Nemesis Force weapons), I'll be making a second post for that, as I still need to properly distill my thoughts on Nemesis Force weapons and how they could be improved without making them broken.
There are individuals for whom I have chosen to select "ignore". They rub me the wrong way, but that is not do say that they cannot have valid points. If you think someone I may have ignored had a good point, please quote the relevant part of their post with your explanation of why you think it is good so I will see it.
Bill1138 wrote: +1 Ignored. That's not said as some sort of childish punishment, only to point out that if he gives any good suggestions, I won't see them unless someone else re-posts them, because I'm tired of fishing through his snarky messages to find the useful bits.
Unfortunately for you, it comes off as exactly that. It's perfectly okay though, because you've given me a perfect opportunity to not double post. Thank you, oh wonderful minion /because I'm "snarky"
In any case, I'll be cutting this a little short, as I've an early start tomorrow... I hate early starts. Let's begin with specialty GK firearms:
Pinning is godly. Having a weapon that can force pinning checks like that will allow GK infantry to advance unhindered by enemy fire- or allow them to slaughter multi-wound infantry models by switching to the Force "mode". A possible addition is giving the non-Force profile- IE, the S5+Shred profile- Soul Blaze as well; however, upping it to S5/Shred+Pinning IMO is a better solution, and would probably be well balanced at the current 10 point price.
Psycannons
Spoiler:
36" Salvo 2/3 S6 AP4 Psybane, Psi-Shock
Psybane: invulnerable saves taken against this weapon cannot be improved beyond the base save, and suffer an additional -1 penalty to a minimum of 6+. This effect may stack with Banishment, to a minimum of 6+. Vehicles hit with a weapon using this trait suffer an automatic Crew Stunned result in addition to all other effects
More-or-less, your anti-deathstar, general purpose, psyker-killer. Psi-Shock is the same as a Condemnor Boltgun or throwing the Psyk-Out grenades. The extra Crew Stunned debuff of Psybane when used against vehicles also means that even if you don't kill a vehicle, you've taken it out of play for a turn (or more, since you could potentially stunlock things with this).
Since you can inflict Crew Stunned, with just a hit- no glance/pen required- you can control enemy vehicle movement. That's incredibly powerful... and doesn't require any firepower upgrade. In fact, to help balance that out, it needs a downgrade! I considered Soul Blaze, but decided that it wouldn't really fit with the weapon's background. The Crew Stunned effect is arguably similar... but I thought that emphasizing the general-purpose nature of the Psycannon with a Salvo 2/3 S6 profile and a vehicle debuff would be a good way to help gentle the blow of losing Rending- even though Rending should never have been on it in the first place. Psi-Shock, OTOH, fits with the background, and also provides a good way to debuff enemy psykers.
I'd also like to mention that this profile for the Psycannon would actually incur a 5-point price drop, so Psycannons would now cost 10 points; when factoring in the extra 5/6 points you're paying for losing the Force weapon (really, that's the important thing that you lose when it comes down to it) would mean that a Psycannon would have a raw cost 15 points- for a gun that's 36", Salvo 2/3, S6, and has the anti-invuln properties- and the vehicle debuff- that's actually a pretty good place for it to be, IMO.
I do want to make clear with a quick note, that when I talk about "raw cost" and "actual cost", the former is what the weapons profile- it's Strength, AP, range, RoF, and any special traits- would make the weapon cost. The "actual cost" is what an army will pay to put it on the field. Some armies get discounts on the "raw cost" of a weapon- with GKs it's mostly folded into the loss of a Force Weapon for PAGK models, and presumably the base price of everybody in the case of GKTs and the fact that an Incinerator has an approximate "actual cost" that's about 5 points less than it should be.
Still, none of this is set in stone, as it were- I'd like feedback on this, naturally.
Incinerators Fine as-is, IMO. Soul Blaze is nice but not super awesome, while S6 is beastly, especially with the addition of the Skitarii Sicarian infantry models, who are T3/2W/4+.
To comment about Incinerator cost, since I did mention it a few lines up: no, I do not think Incinerators need any price changes. They're really fine as-is; I merely mentioned Incinerator pricing as a way to show that GK specials are generally being discounted in several ways- not all of which are being payed for with the loss of other equipment.
The new kid on the block, the Psi-Melta is what I propose for the GKAV weapon. Considering, for example, a shunting Interceptor squad- against vehicles, with the objective of getting into melta range, you'll have ~39" threat range. Which is pretty good, but with only two shots you're not in any way guaranteed to destroy a tank. Even back in 5th Ed, it took three BS4 meltas to guarantee a vehicle kill- and in 5th AP1 pretty much got you a 50% chance of getting an Explodes result!
For the Force profile, you have a 42" threat range, yes. However, let's consider the effects of 2, S6/AP2 Force shots against a typical T6 MC:
Spoiler:
2 shots @ BS4 is ~1.33 hits, wounding on 4+ (S6 vs T6), is ~0.67 wounds
Versus 3+/2+ armor, you inflict the wound unsaved, and so have a fair chance of gibbing it. However, DKs, Riptides, and all Daemons MCs have an invulnerable save that further reduces this to:
6++: ~0.56 unsaved wounds
5++: ~0.44 unsaved wounds
4++: ~0.34 unsaved wounds
3++: ~0.22 unsaved wounds
2++: ~0.11 unsaved wounds
So as we see, against a run-of-the-mill Carnifex, this is actually somewhat dangerous- but Carnifexes are fairly cheap, and almost never fielded solo... at least, insofar as they are not the only big mean nasty ugly gribbly beasty on the board.
Against a Riptide, DK, or other T6 MC with an invulnerable save, however, it's not nearly as dangerous- that invulnerable save, even at 5++, is hugely beneficial. Even a 6++ can mitigate the potential damage. And against a Wraithknight, you're better off just trying to pump regular S8/AP1 melta shots into it.
Another option for GKAV armaments is to allow Purgation Squads and GK Dreadnoughts to have access to Conversion Beamers, which have the following profile:
Spoiler:
0-18" Heavy 1 S6 AP- Small (3") Blast
18-42" Heavy 1 S8 AP4 Small (3") Blast
42-72" Heavy 1 S10 AP1 Small (3") Blast
I'm not really a fan of this idea, as it seems contrary to the general design of the GK army as being strong mid-range shooting with good assault deterrence (how much do you really want to charge a unit armed almost entirely with combat Force weapons?). Still, I could see arguments for it.
Heavy Psycannon
Spoiler:
24" Heavy 6 S7 AP4 Psybane, Psi-Shock
24" Heavy 1 S7 AP4 Large (5") Blast, Psybane, Psi-Shock, Shred
Heavy Psycannons being S7 isn't much of a problem... as long as they stay at 24". There are very few weapons with a Strength of 7 or higher with a range beyond 24", and most of them are Heavy 1- the few that fire multiple shots are almost never mounted on something as relatively durable and mobile as a Dreadknight. The Blast mode getting Shred is to help offset the loss of Rending, as well as make it a more attractive option than just hammering away with S7 shots. The change of Salvo 3/6 to Heavy 6 is due to the fact that Heavy Psycannons are only deployable on Dreadknights, who are themselves Relentless, being MCs.
Gatling Psilencer
Spoiler:
36" Heavy 12 S5 AP- Shred, Pinning
36" Heavy 12 S4 AP- Force
Gatling Psilencers being 36" rather than 24" like the S7 Heavy Psycannon is to help provide different options- do you want more range, with options for Pinning or Force, or do you want the benefits of Psybane and a pie plate.
Heavy Incinerators Much like Incinerators, I find these to be fine as-is.
I also do not think that Dreadknights need access to a DK-sized melta weapon, as the current options- even amended as above, are perfectly sufficient for it.
Now, to Nemesis Force Weapons:
IMO, these weapons lost some of their coolness in the updated for, what, 7th? codex. So let's see if we can't bring some of that back in interesting, flavorful ways that provide compelling choices.
Nemesis Force Swords
Spoiler:
S:User AP3 Melee, Force, Daemonbane, Parry
Parry: Models with a Nemesis Force Sword have a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat. If the model already has an invulnerable save, it instead gains +1 to its save. This effect may stack with Sanctuary, but may not be increased beyond 3+. This save may not be re-rolled]
Nemesis Force Swords bring back some of that "slightly tougher in combat" aspect that they used to have, which was really awesome and flavorful IMO. I initially thought that a 6++ would be good for models that don't get invulns in combat, but I ultimately decided that a 5++ is a little bit better and helps make the Sword a more compelling option. Also note the specific mentions of Sanctuary and re-rollable saves- a Parry save can't be re-rolled, and you can't buff it higher than 3++. Also remember that it only applies in combat, so it doesn't help against shooting attacks.
Nemesis Force Halberds
Spoiler:
S:User+1 AP3 Melee, Force, Daemonbane, Two-Handed
S:User AP3 Melee, Force, Daemonbane, Two-Handed, Long Reach
Long Reach: When using a weapon with this trait, the owning model fights at +1 Initiative for all close combat purposes. On a turn that the owning model successfully charges, the bearer may fight at +2 Initiative for that phase of combat
Simply put, I rather liked the advantage that Halberds conferred back in 5th, in that the long reach allowed them to fight at a higher Initiative value. I'd like to bring that back, but it has some drawbacks- you only get +1 Initiative, rather than the old +2, unless you charge, and then it's only for that phase too.
Alternately, you can instead take the +1S bonus that it currently provides, which is still pretty good on its own.
Nemesis Daemonhammer
Fine as-is, IMO.
Nemesis Warding Stave
While I'm not sure how I feel about the change to Concussive+Adamantium Will instead of a combat-only 2++, I think that it's legitimately interesting and probably more viable. Not only that, but it probably is more generally useful, particularly with the changes to the Psychic Phase (IE that there is one) in comparison to previous editions.
Nemesis Falchions
Falchions are... interesting. On the one hand, they're curiously a Specialist Weapon, even though it's only possible to carry two and no other CCWs anyway, and they still carry all the benefits of Nemesis Force Weapons, in addition to be AP3. But they don't really... pop, I guess? They somewhat lack in the department of "cool things" that the other weapons can get- particularly with the addition of "Parry" to Nemesis Swords. So, I've a bit of a crazy idea:
Allow models with the unit type "Infantry (Character)" to gain the Rampage rule when equipped with Nemesis Falchions. So, here, it's a character-only option, rather than a "Rampage for errybody" deal, as not only is that a lot of dice rolling but it could potentially become very very broken- A Strike Squad dude with Falchions has two Attack base, 3 on the charge, and could potentially end up with a whopping 6 (!) S4/AP3 Force weapon attacks.
As incredibly entertaining as that might be... I don't think it's good for balance, and hence I would recommend that they get Rampage on Character-models only.
The other option is simply allowing Falchions to give a +1 Attack bonus in addition to the current bonus for wielding two CCWs.
Nemesis Greatsword
The DK-only weapon, I find to be in a good spot, and in no need of any changes.
Pretty much, just giving it an extra shot; this is mostly on the basis that the Terminator and Stormbolter threads that were active a while ago generally agreed on Stormbolters getting an extra shot and a full-BS Overwatch option. I haven't included the latter here for simplicity's sake; moreover, I recommend againstGK-specific Stormbolters getting the upgrade to Assault 3 (instead of 2) or full-BS Overwatch, as they already have fairly good midrange firepower projection, and the extra shots are, as yet, unnecessary.
However, should it become clear that Assault 3 should also be extended to the GK-specific Stormbolters, then I will likely amend this recommendation. However, given that all GK infantry carry Stormbolters, I cannot recommend under any circumstance that the GKs get full-BS Overwatch Stormbolters, as that would be quite horrendously broken.
Insofar as the other Relics, I do not find any of them to be in any particular need of mechanical fixes- some may need price drops, but overall are quite functional, with the following exception:
Bone Shard of Solor
Simply add in a notation that the invulnerable save granted by the Bone Shard (under the relevant conditions), may not be improved by Sanctuary, under any circumstances. Additionally, the invulnerable save so-granted may not be re-rolled if failed.
I would, however, like to see an at-Initiative AP2 combat weapon Relic option for the GKs, as most armies with Relics are these days getting an AP2-at-Initiative Relic weapon. Some form of Sword, perhaps...
5th version:
Promethium Reserve Tanks: as a new option for vehicles with flamer-type weapons that grants the weapons a 6” Torrent. The price could vary by vehicle based on effectiveness or be a per-weapon upgrade. This upgrade would be available to other codexes.
Grey Knight Chapter Tactics: These are the rules that apply across the Grey Knight Codex in the same way the Space Marine Chapter Tactics affect the chosen Chapter. If you think this is too much, compare them to the Iron Hands’ Chapter Tactics.
The Aegis
Prefered Enemy (Daemons)
Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit
Daemonology (Sanctic): Replace the #4 power (Purge Soul) with a Blessing that improves the AP of shooting weapons by 1. This would not apply to psychic shooting attacks.
4. Psychic Infusion …………………..Warp Charge 1
The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential. Psychic Infusion is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the AP of weapons fired by the unit are improved by 1.
HQs I’d leave their options the same, but a few of their base prices are too high for what they’re capable of.
125pts- Brother-Captain:
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
Troops: Strike Squad:
Make Rites of Teleportation a special rule for Strike Squads instead of being a Detachment benefit for the Nemesis Strike force, but also have it reduce scatter to 1D6.
Elites 100pts – Dreadnought: Add a new piece of Wargear that grants the Dreadnought the option to use Skyfire each shooting phase.
Paladins: At their current price, give them Sanctuary.
Heavy: Purgation Squad: replace Hammerhand Psychic power with the Psychic Infusion power
Dreadknight: Add an Iron Halo as an optional upgrade.
*Special Weapons: new (and hopefully improved suggestion) The Grey Knights have 3 Special Weapons: the Incinerator, the Psilencer, and the Psycannon. As they currently stand the Psilencer and Psycannon are not good upgrades for PAGK. I would like to see that fixed.
Incinerator: Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1, Soulblaze (No change)
Psilencer: 24”, S4, Ap-, Assault 6, Poisoned 3+, Force (Being as other Codexes rely on template weapons for anti-hoarde, the Psilencer doesn't really have to be anti-hoarde. This profile makes it good at killing Monstrous Creatures, though not as good as my previous suggestion, yet removes most of the anti-infantry ability it had. It is also much closer to a traditional weapon profile than my previous suggestion.)
Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending, Lance (This doubles its effectiveness against Soulgrinders, and helps against AV 14, but doesn’t do anything at all to its effectiveness against lighter armor.
*For the sake of Fluff explanations, “Poisoned” and “Lance” would probably be given new overly flowery or pseudo-Latin names and descriptions to make them more in line with the Imperium’s lore, but would still be the exact same rules.
How about if the Ordo Malleus Inquisitor was added back into the Grey Knight Codex to give the Grey Knights a cheap HQ option? After all, the Grey Knights work very closely with the Ordo Malleus in the fluff.
total0 wrote: Looks like the threads dead buddy, gk are fine
That's an interesting conclusion to draw from a 5-page thread where people have suggested changes to a bunch of things.
Yes, it has 6 pages but the discussion has died as before total0's coment, it was just the OP since he has ignored many contributors in this thread.
The posts are still there. People can see them if they want. I've done my best to heed good suggestions, but a few individuals keep presenting the same suggestion with the same reasoning. If I explain why I don't like a suggestion, it is only fair that the person gives a rebuttal. It becomes something else when a person keeps making the same suggestion over and over when I've made it clear that I think it is not suitable for the situation.
Examples:
Scout on Strike Squads: The fluff explanation for Strike Squads is that they lay down the teleport homers for the Terminators to arrive in locations otherwise inaccessible. Even with Scout, the Strike Squads' Teleport Homers cannot benefit the Terminators anywhere they couldn't have simply ran to in the same number of turns.
Adding a new anti-armor special weapon that's essentially a better melta: The Grey Knights have the Incinerator for anti-hoarde, the Psilencer for anti-Monstrous Creature, and the Psycannon for anti-armor. The Grey Knights don't need a new gun. They need the Psilencer and Psycannon to be a bit better at their roles. And the "better melta" suggestion would reduce both the number of shots and the range available, which would be detrimental to an already small and short ranged army.
Here is the current version of the suggestion.
Bill1138 wrote: 5th version:
Promethium Reserve Tanks: as a new option for vehicles with flamer-type weapons that grants the weapons a 6” Torrent. The price could vary by vehicle based on effectiveness or be a per-weapon upgrade. This upgrade would be available to other codexes.
Grey Knight Chapter Tactics: These are the rules that apply across the Grey Knight Codex in the same way the Space Marine Chapter Tactics affect the chosen Chapter. If you think this is too much, compare them to the Iron Hands’ Chapter Tactics.
The Aegis
Prefered Enemy (Daemons)
Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit
Daemonology (Sanctic): Replace the #4 power (Purge Soul) with a Blessing that improves the AP of shooting weapons by 1. This would not apply to psychic shooting attacks.
4. Psychic Infusion …………………..Warp Charge 1
The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential. Psychic Infusion is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the AP of weapons fired by the unit are improved by 1.
HQs I’d leave their options the same, but a few of their base prices are too high for what they’re capable of.
125pts- Brother-Captain:
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
Troops: Strike Squad:
Make Rites of Teleportation a special rule for Strike Squads instead of being a Detachment benefit for the Nemesis Strike force, but also have it reduce scatter to 1D6.
Elites 100pts – Dreadnought: Add a new piece of Wargear that grants the Dreadnought the option to use Skyfire each shooting phase.
Paladins: At their current price, give them Sanctuary.
Heavy: Purgation Squad: replace Hammerhand Psychic power with the Psychic Infusion power
Dreadknight: Add an Iron Halo as an optional upgrade.
*Special Weapons: new (and hopefully improved suggestion) The Grey Knights have 3 Special Weapons: the Incinerator, the Psilencer, and the Psycannon. As they currently stand the Psilencer and Psycannon are not good upgrades for PAGK. I would like to see that fixed.
Incinerator: Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1, Soulblaze (No change)
Psilencer: 24”, S4, Ap-, Assault 6, Poisoned 3+, Force (Being as other Codexes rely on template weapons for anti-hoarde, the Psilencer doesn't really have to be anti-hoarde. This profile makes it good at killing Monstrous Creatures, though not as good as my previous suggestion, yet removes most of the anti-infantry ability it had. It is also much closer to a traditional weapon profile than my previous suggestion.)
Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending, Lance (This doubles its effectiveness against Soulgrinders, and helps against AV 14, but doesn’t do anything at all to its effectiveness against lighter armor.
*For the sake of Fluff explanations, “Poisoned” and “Lance” would probably be given new overly flowery or pseudo-Latin names and descriptions to make them more in line with the Imperium’s lore, but would still be the exact same rules.
Oh, can somebody quote this? Want to make sure that anybody and everybody can see it.
Bill1138 wrote: Psilencer: 24”, S4, Ap-, Assault 6, Poisoned 3+, Force (Being as other Codexes rely on template weapons for anti-hoarde, the Psilencer doesn't really have to be anti-hoarde. This profile makes it good at killing Monstrous Creatures, though not as good as my previous suggestion, yet removes most of the anti-infantry ability it had. It is also much closer to a traditional weapon profile than my previous suggestion.)
Well this is out of left field. Still, I dislike it quite a bit. It's not so horrendously broken as Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison 3+, but it's not great either. I do admit that I like Assault 6, as it allows Psilencers to contribute to the midrange shooting that GKs generally excel at.
Poison 3+ is still over the top when combined with Force; if you want both then a better solution is to split the profile to either Force or Poison... it should also probably be Poison 4+, as otherwise this is 99% better Splinter Cannon and would overshadow the DE as the poison masters of the game.
As an example, a single Psilencer with 3+ Poison, and 6 shots, will inflict ~2.7 wounds on a MC. Against 3+ armor, this becomes ~0.89 unsaved wounds- so you've got really good chances to blap a MC. This is pretty over the top, especially when a moderately tooled up Strike Squad can kill any T6/3+ MCin one round of combat.
Here's the math:
Spoiler:
Strike Squad, 10 man, 10 Halberds, Charging:
against a WS4 MC: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, ~3.5 unsaved wounds (Halberds provide +1S and AP3); a typical T6/3+ MC has only 4 Wounds- you don't even need Force to kill one given that in practice it'll round up to 4 wounds!
If you really want to go in for overkill, you could also activate Hammerhand, for 5 Unsaved Wounds- combined with Force, you can probably kill an entire brood of Carnifexes in a single round of combat!
WS4 MC, 10-man Strike Squad, w/ all Falchions, Charging, with Hammerhand:
31 attacks, ~16 hits, ~5.33 unsaved wounds (Falchions provide +1 Attack and AP3, Hammerhand provides +1 Str). Once again, you can just use Falchions+Hammerhand and kill any T6/3+ MC in the game in a single round; if they have a 5++, then you inflict ~3.55 unsaved wounds- still very good chances to kill a T6/3+/5++ MC in a single round.
And keep in mind that that's going to hold true against WS4-WS8 MCs; it takes an insane WS9 before the Strikes can only hit on 5+. Oh, and against WS3 (IE, many Tyranid T6/3+ MCs)? Halberds will inflict ~4.67 unsaved wounds (~7 w/ Hammerhand), while Falchions will get ~6.89 unsaved wounds when combined with Hammerhand. Season with Force, and you can literally kill any T6/3+ MC in a single round of combat- more likely, you'll kill multiple T6/3+ MCs in just one round of combat.
Also, for those who are curious as to how brokenly powerful Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison 3+ is... take a look:
Spoiler:
I don't have my codex stuff with me right now, but let's just think about how much firepower you can get:
MSU Purifiers x3, w/ 2 Psilencers You'll get 72 S5 Poison 3+ shots at 36"; against T3 infantry you can pump out 40 (!) wounds per turn; against:
6+ Save: ~33.3 unsaved wounds
5+ Save: ~26.7 unsaved wounds (IE, you just mostly wiped out a typical IG Infantry blob of 30 dudes)
4+ Save: ~20 unsaved wounds (IE, you still mostly wipe out a typical IG Infantry blob, even if they're in 4+ cover)
3+ Save: ~13.3 unsaved wounds (there goes that Battle Sister blob)
Alternately, you can deal up to ~32 wounds against anything T5 or better; against a typical:
3+ Armor MC: ~10.7 unsaved wounds (nearly an entire Carnifex Brood gone!)
2+ Armor MC: ~5.34 unsaved wounds; if the MC has 5+ FNP then that becomes ~3.56 unsaved wounds- so you can nearly one-round a Riptide. Riptides are brokenly powerful too, but breaking Psilencers into this level of power is not the answer.
Oh, and for comparison, 30 Sternguard can only put out 30 2+ Poison shots at 12-24", and 60 at 0-12". They also cost around 3 times as much as MSU Purifiers, and can't use Rhinos as a pseudo-ablative armor. MSU Trueborn with Splinter Cannons and dual Splinter Cannon Venoms can dump 36 poison shots per squad- so 108 per turn for three squads- and of the total 108, 36 are twin-linked. Except that they're 4+ poison.
An approximate number of wounds inflicted before saves for MSU Splinterborn in Dual Splinter Venoms would be: 24 wounds from Splinterborn, 16 wounds from Venoms; total of 40 wounds. Which sounds comparable, until you realize that:
-Trueborn are T3/5+ infantry, in 4-man MSU squads, mounted in cardboard bawkse Venoms (10/10/10 2HPs, open-topped)
-It takes ~33% more shots for DE to equal the wound output of 6 Salvo 8/12 S5/Poison 3+ Psilencers
-Splinter weapons are S:X, which means they cannot harm AV at all
-For a moderate cost increase, the MSU Purifiers can mount in Rhinos and still fire their important weapons from the roof hatch, giving them an ablative AV11/11/10 3HP vehicle
-Purifiers are also ML2, so 3 MSU squads contributes 6 WC.
-Purifiers also know Cleansing Flame, probably the best Sanctic power.
So, yeah. Salvo 8/12, S5, Poison 3+ Psilencers? Brokenly powerful.
Bill1138 wrote: Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending, Lance (This doubles its effectiveness against Soulgrinders, and helps against AV 14, but doesn’t do anything at all to its effectiveness against lighter armor.
*For the sake of Fluff explanations, “Poisoned” and “Lance” would probably be given new overly flowery or pseudo-Latin names and descriptions to make them more in line with the Imperium’s lore, but would still be the exact same rules.
I don't really see the point of both Lance and Rending; it's got enough weight of fire that S7+Lance is perfectly functional for glancing things to death. Also, it doesn't need anything other than the "Lance" rule. There's no need for the weapon's rules to use something Imperial-ized for the rule. Make up whatever description you want, but leave it simple and clean as Lance rather than some other thing.
Bill1138 wrote: Psilencer: 24”, S4, Ap-, Assault 6, Poisoned 3+, Force (Being as other Codexes rely on template weapons for anti-hoarde, the Psilencer doesn't really have to be anti-hoarde. This profile makes it good at killing Monstrous Creatures, though not as good as my previous suggestion, yet removes most of the anti-infantry ability it had. It is also much closer to a traditional weapon profile than my previous suggestion.)
Well this is out of left field. Still, I dislike it quite a bit. It's not so horrendously broken as Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison 3+, but it's not great either. I do admit that I like Assault 6, as it allows Psilencers to contribute to the midrange shooting that GKs generally excel at.
Poison 3+ is still over the top when combined with Force; if you want both then a better solution is to split the profile to either Force or Poison... it should also probably be Poison 4+, as otherwise this is 99% better Splinter Cannon and would overshadow the DE as the poison masters of the game.
As an example, a single Psilencer with 3+ Poison, and 6 shots, will inflict ~2.7 wounds on a MC. Against 3+ armor, this becomes ~0.89 unsaved wounds- so you've got really good chances to blap a MC. This is pretty over the top, especially when a moderately tooled up Strike Squad can kill any T6/3+ MCin one round of combat.
Here's the math:
Spoiler:
Strike Squad, 10 man, 10 Halberds, Charging:
against a WS4 MC: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, ~3.5 unsaved wounds (Halberds provide +1S and AP3); a typical T6/3+ MC has only 4 Wounds- you don't even need Force to kill one given that in practice it'll round up to 4 wounds!
If you really want to go in for overkill, you could also activate Hammerhand, for 5 Unsaved Wounds- combined with Force, you can probably kill an entire brood of Carnifexes in a single round of combat!
WS4 MC, 10-man Strike Squad, w/ all Falchions, Charging, with Hammerhand:
31 attacks, ~16 hits, ~5.33 unsaved wounds (Falchions provide +1 Attack and AP3, Hammerhand provides +1 Str). Once again, you can just use Falchions+Hammerhand and kill any T6/3+ MC in the game in a single round; if they have a 5++, then you inflict ~3.55 unsaved wounds- still very good chances to kill a T6/3+/5++ MC in a single round.
And keep in mind that that's going to hold true against WS4-WS8 MCs; it takes an insane WS9 before the Strikes can only hit on 5+. Oh, and against WS3 (IE, many Tyranid T6/3+ MCs)? Halberds will inflict ~4.67 unsaved wounds (~7 w/ Hammerhand), while Falchions will get ~6.89 unsaved wounds when combined with Hammerhand. Season with Force, and you can literally kill any T6/3+ MC in a single round of combat- more likely, you'll kill multiple T6/3+ MCs in just one round of combat.
Also, for those who are curious as to how brokenly powerful Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison 3+ is... take a look:
Spoiler:
I don't have my codex stuff with me right now, but let's just think about how much firepower you can get:
MSU Purifiers x3, w/ 2 Psilencers You'll get 72 S5 Poison 3+ shots at 36"; against T3 infantry you can pump out 40 (!) wounds per turn; against:
6+ Save: ~33.3 unsaved wounds
5+ Save: ~26.7 unsaved wounds (IE, you just mostly wiped out a typical IG Infantry blob of 30 dudes)
4+ Save: ~20 unsaved wounds (IE, you still mostly wipe out a typical IG Infantry blob, even if they're in 4+ cover)
3+ Save: ~13.3 unsaved wounds (there goes that Battle Sister blob)
Alternately, you can deal up to ~32 wounds against anything T5 or better; against a typical:
3+ Armor MC: ~10.7 unsaved wounds (nearly an entire Carnifex Brood gone!)
2+ Armor MC: ~5.34 unsaved wounds; if the MC has 5+ FNP then that becomes ~3.56 unsaved wounds- so you can nearly one-round a Riptide. Riptides are brokenly powerful too, but breaking Psilencers into this level of power is not the answer.
Oh, and for comparison, 30 Sternguard can only put out 30 2+ Poison shots at 12-24", and 60 at 0-12". They also cost around 3 times as much as MSU Purifiers, and can't use Rhinos as a pseudo-ablative armor. MSU Trueborn with Splinter Cannons and dual Splinter Cannon Venoms can dump 36 poison shots per squad- so 108 per turn for three squads- and of the total 108, 36 are twin-linked. Except that they're 4+ poison.
An approximate number of wounds inflicted before saves for MSU Splinterborn in Dual Splinter Venoms would be: 24 wounds from Splinterborn, 16 wounds from Venoms; total of 40 wounds. Which sounds comparable, until you realize that:
-Trueborn are T3/5+ infantry, in 4-man MSU squads, mounted in cardboard bawkse Venoms (10/10/10 2HPs, open-topped)
-It takes ~33% more shots for DE to equal the wound output of 6 Salvo 8/12 S5/Poison 3+ Psilencers
-Splinter weapons are S:X, which means they cannot harm AV at all
-For a moderate cost increase, the MSU Purifiers can mount in Rhinos and still fire their important weapons from the roof hatch, giving them an ablative AV11/11/10 3HP vehicle
-Purifiers are also ML2, so 3 MSU squads contributes 6 WC.
-Purifiers also know Cleansing Flame, probably the best Sanctic power.
So, yeah. Salvo 8/12, S5, Poison 3+ Psilencers? Brokenly powerful.
Bill1138 wrote: Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending, Lance (This doubles its effectiveness against Soulgrinders, and helps against AV 14, but doesn’t do anything at all to its effectiveness against lighter armor.
*For the sake of Fluff explanations, “Poisoned” and “Lance” would probably be given new overly flowery or pseudo-Latin names and descriptions to make them more in line with the Imperium’s lore, but would still be the exact same rules.
I don't really see the point of both Lance and Rending; it's got enough weight of fire that S7+Lance is perfectly functional for glancing things to death. Also, it doesn't need anything other than the "Lance" rule. There's no need for the weapon's rules to use something Imperial-ized for the rule. Make up whatever description you want, but leave it simple and clean as Lance rather than some other thing.
Bill1138 wrote: Psilencer: 24”, S4, Ap-, Assault 6, Poisoned 3+, Force (Being as other Codexes rely on template weapons for anti-hoarde, the Psilencer doesn't really have to be anti-hoarde. This profile makes it good at killing Monstrous Creatures, though not as good as my previous suggestion, yet removes most of the anti-infantry ability it had. It is also much closer to a traditional weapon profile than my previous suggestion.)
Well this is out of left field. Still, I dislike it quite a bit. It's not so horrendously broken as Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison 3+, but it's not great either. I do admit that I like Assault 6, as it allows Psilencers to contribute to the midrange shooting that GKs generally excel at.
Poison 3+ is still over the top when combined with Force; if you want both then a better solution is to split the profile to either Force or Poison... it should also probably be Poison 4+, as otherwise this is 99% better Splinter Cannon and would overshadow the DE as the poison masters of the game.
As an example, a single Psilencer with 3+ Poison, and 6 shots, will inflict ~2.7 wounds on a MC. Against 3+ armor, this becomes ~0.89 unsaved wounds- so you've got really good chances to blap a MC. This is pretty over the top, especially when a moderately tooled up Strike Squad can kill any T6/3+ MCin one round of combat.
Here's the math:
Spoiler:
Strike Squad, 10 man, 10 Halberds, Charging:
against a WS4 MC: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, ~3.5 unsaved wounds (Halberds provide +1S and AP3); a typical T6/3+ MC has only 4 Wounds- you don't even need Force to kill one given that in practice it'll round up to 4 wounds!
If you really want to go in for overkill, you could also activate Hammerhand, for 5 Unsaved Wounds- combined with Force, you can probably kill an entire brood of Carnifexes in a single round of combat!
WS4 MC, 10-man Strike Squad, w/ all Falchions, Charging, with Hammerhand:
31 attacks, ~16 hits, ~5.33 unsaved wounds (Falchions provide +1 Attack and AP3, Hammerhand provides +1 Str). Once again, you can just use Falchions+Hammerhand and kill any T6/3+ MC in the game in a single round; if they have a 5++, then you inflict ~3.55 unsaved wounds- still very good chances to kill a T6/3+/5++ MC in a single round.
And keep in mind that that's going to hold true against WS4-WS8 MCs; it takes an insane WS9 before the Strikes can only hit on 5+. Oh, and against WS3 (IE, many Tyranid T6/3+ MCs)? Halberds will inflict ~4.67 unsaved wounds (~7 w/ Hammerhand), while Falchions will get ~6.89 unsaved wounds when combined with Hammerhand. Season with Force, and you can literally kill any T6/3+ MC in a single round of combat- more likely, you'll kill multiple T6/3+ MCs in just one round of combat.
Also, for those who are curious as to how brokenly powerful Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison 3+ is... take a look:
Spoiler:
I don't have my codex stuff with me right now, but let's just think about how much firepower you can get:
MSU Purifiers x3, w/ 2 Psilencers You'll get 72 S5 Poison 3+ shots at 36"; against T3 infantry you can pump out 40 (!) wounds per turn; against:
6+ Save: ~33.3 unsaved wounds
5+ Save: ~26.7 unsaved wounds (IE, you just mostly wiped out a typical IG Infantry blob of 30 dudes)
4+ Save: ~20 unsaved wounds (IE, you still mostly wipe out a typical IG Infantry blob, even if they're in 4+ cover)
3+ Save: ~13.3 unsaved wounds (there goes that Battle Sister blob)
Alternately, you can deal up to ~32 wounds against anything T5 or better; against a typical:
3+ Armor MC: ~10.7 unsaved wounds (nearly an entire Carnifex Brood gone!)
2+ Armor MC: ~5.34 unsaved wounds; if the MC has 5+ FNP then that becomes ~3.56 unsaved wounds- so you can nearly one-round a Riptide. Riptides are brokenly powerful too, but breaking Psilencers into this level of power is not the answer.
Oh, and for comparison, 30 Sternguard can only put out 30 2+ Poison shots at 12-24", and 60 at 0-12". They also cost around 3 times as much as MSU Purifiers, and can't use Rhinos as a pseudo-ablative armor. MSU Trueborn with Splinter Cannons and dual Splinter Cannon Venoms can dump 36 poison shots per squad- so 108 per turn for three squads- and of the total 108, 36 are twin-linked. Except that they're 4+ poison.
An approximate number of wounds inflicted before saves for MSU Splinterborn in Dual Splinter Venoms would be: 24 wounds from Splinterborn, 16 wounds from Venoms; total of 40 wounds. Which sounds comparable, until you realize that:
-Trueborn are T3/5+ infantry, in 4-man MSU squads, mounted in cardboard bawkse Venoms (10/10/10 2HPs, open-topped)
-It takes ~33% more shots for DE to equal the wound output of 6 Salvo 8/12 S5/Poison 3+ Psilencers
-Splinter weapons are S:X, which means they cannot harm AV at all
-For a moderate cost increase, the MSU Purifiers can mount in Rhinos and still fire their important weapons from the roof hatch, giving them an ablative AV11/11/10 3HP vehicle
-Purifiers are also ML2, so 3 MSU squads contributes 6 WC.
-Purifiers also know Cleansing Flame, probably the best Sanctic power.
So, yeah. Salvo 8/12, S5, Poison 3+ Psilencers? Brokenly powerful.
Bill1138 wrote: Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending, Lance (This doubles its effectiveness against Soulgrinders, and helps against AV 14, but doesn’t do anything at all to its effectiveness against lighter armor.
*For the sake of Fluff explanations, “Poisoned” and “Lance” would probably be given new overly flowery or pseudo-Latin names and descriptions to make them more in line with the Imperium’s lore, but would still be the exact same rules.
I don't really see the point of both Lance and Rending; it's got enough weight of fire that S7+Lance is perfectly functional for glancing things to death. Also, it doesn't need anything other than the "Lance" rule. There's no need for the weapon's rules to use something Imperial-ized for the rule. Make up whatever description you want, but leave it simple and clean as Lance rather than some other thing.
Quoted for truth!
+1
Also, would be interesting to see just how silly broken Poison 3+/Force Psilencers that can move & shoot at full range would be against your typical T4/5 4+ save unit... And for added lols, I'm sure these would obliterate Wraiths as well.
So, after even more thought, I think I've condensed some of my thoughts down a bit. Also, a "Quote For Truth" would be appreciated, to maximize idea exposure.
First off, let's consider GK Special Weapons, what they currently are intended to do, what they actually do, what they should do, and how we can make that transition. Before I begin, I will first note that Incinerators and Heavy Incinerators are mechanically fine; all that is necessary, IMO, is to do the following:
Incinerators, Heavy Incinerators
Spoiler:
Simply put, Heavy Incinerators should be an optional upgrade for Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raider Redeemers.
I would recommend that a single Heavy Incinerator be available to the Razorback/Dreadnought/DK for +20 points;
A Land Raider Redeemer, OTOH, can exchange it's Flamestorm Cannons for Heavy Incinerators for +5 points. Land Raiders are already overpriced, and you're losing the amazing AP3+Ignores Cover in favor of gaining greater flexibility via Torrent.
So, let's move on to Psilencers.
Psilencers right now have a design that is intended to make them good killers of multi-wound infantry. The problem is that they're only good against T4 multi-wound; against T3, the Psycannon is better. Against T5, again, the Psilencer is better. Against MCs? Psycannons again. So that makes Psilencers an ultimately flawed weapon. How do we fix that?
Well, I think it comes down to what we want Psilencers to do. I personally feel that they should retain the anti-multi-wound infantry aspect; the current profile is actually not bad at the job, it's just that Psycannon overshadows it in so many other roles against any other target type- and even some of the targets Psilencers are "supposed" to be good at killing- that the Psilencer really needs to get a pick-me-up of some kind. So, that leaves a decision to be made:
Should Psilencers be given an anti-GEQ mode?
-OR-
Should Psilencers be given an anti-MC mode?
My own opinion is that an anti-GEQ mode is a better choice. To that end, I'd like to recommend the following:
Psilencers, Gatling Psilencers
Spoiler:
Psilencers would have the following profile:
24" Assault 6 S4 AP- Force
Gatling Psilencers would retain their current profile, which is:
24" Heavy 12 S4 AP- Force
In addition, I think that one of the following options should be considered as the alternate profile; while I do not think that an anti-MC "mode" is the best option, I will include one anyways, for the purposes of discussion and comparison with other parts of this post:
Using the Psilencer as a base, the secondary profile would be:
24" Assault 6 S:X AP- Poison (4+) {an anti-MC option}
24" Assault 6 S5 AP- Shred {anti-GEQ/light infantry}
24" Assault 6 S5 AP- Pinning {alternate anti-GEQ profile}
[For the Gatling Psilencer, substitute Assault 6 for Heavy 12]
For those who are curious, Poison 3+ is a bit over the top, and also infringes on DE Poison weapons- the only Poison shooting that's better than the DE tends to be very expensive and also short ranged (as in, best weight of fire is at 12"). Poison 4+ strikes a better balance; on average a Psilencer with Poison 4+ will put 2 wounds onto a MC before saves are taken, so typically it'll be ~0.67 unsaved wounds. Which sounds unimpressive, but keep in mind that Psilencers are still relatively cheap- 10 points for PAGKs- and can be taken in numbers fairly easily. Four such weapons would produce ~2.7 unsaved wounds- that's very nearly 3 unsaved wounds, and a typical MC has 4 wounds; being able to take of 50-75% of those wounds in a single round of shooting with four Psilencers is pretty well balanced for the Psilencer's current price.
For the anti-GEQ option, S5+Shred means ultra-reliable wounding against T3 infantry. It also allows for surprisingly good results against T6 targets (IE, MCs); S5+Shred will have an ~55% wounding rate against T6, so you're looking at surprisingly comparable results to a Poison 4+ Psilencer, but with added capability against T3/T4/T5 infantry models.
The tradeoff is that Poison 4+ would be more desirable for facing T7+ targets- mostly Wraithknights, if we're honest. Alternately, Shred could be dropped from the S5 profile and exchanged for Pinning. It's got potential, I think, but it's not quite as nice as it could be due to only having 24" of range.
For the record, replacing Poison 4+ with Fleshbane isn't quite balanced, IMO. A squad of 4 can torrent down any 3+ MC, while still maintaining a blazing effectiveness against lighter targets. 4+ Poison sacrifices effectiveness against low-T enemies; as an example, Kabalite Warriors are quite inefficient when in a firefight with other T3 infantry- it's when they shoot at very high T targets that they really shine. Fleshbane, being functionally 2+ Poison, means that the degree of equal effectiveness remains "ultra-high"; there's no tradeoff and it's almost impossible to not put wounds onto anything. Basically, Fleshbane Psilencers have no functional weakness against Toughness-based targets.
So that's Psilencers. Let's tackle the enormous number of elephants in the room, with Psycannons. I'll start with my suggested profile first, and then explain the reasoning behind the design.
Heavy Psycannon 36" Heavy 6 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock
36" Heavy 1 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock, Large (5") Blast, Shred
24" Assault 2 SX AP- Haywire
I'm sure a lot of people will be surprised by this suggestion, especially coming from me. Ultimately, a lot of people seem to have the opinion that Psycannons are "AV". I disagree quite a bit with this idea... but Psycannons are bolt weapons, and one of the shining virtues of bolt weapons is that they have a lot of versatility due to their ammunition.
Enter the "Tempest Bolt". For those who do not know, one of the background ammo types for Bolters is the "Tempest" shell. While described as a proximity-burst frag round in the HH rules, the original incarnation (that I know of, at least) was a variation on Haywire weaponry. In terms of fluff, it can easily be explained as Psycannons having a dual munition feed, or even a GK hand-loading each Tempest Bolt for firing; in the case of a dual munition feed, lower RoF is fluffed as the Tempest "hopper" having a significantly lower capacity than the standard "Psybolt" hopper.
And now perhaps the greatest change: no more S7/AP4/Rending, instead S6/AP3 Psi-Shock. So, firstly, Psycannons have generally been written in the background as firing Heavy Bolter-size shells. Heavy Bolters only gain +1S for loading Psybolt ammo (according to the "old" rules for such). I wanted to represent the greater capability of the Psycannon when used with Psybolts, with each bolt being psychically activated by the GK firer. So, AP3 and Psi-Shock. This makes it good at killing Marines and passable at killing T6/3+ MCs; a Psycannon can reliably put 1 wound onto a T6 MC if the user sits still. Psi-Shock represents the psychic potential of each bolt, especially against psychic targets.
An alternative primary profile would be thusly:
Spoiler:
24" Assault 3 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock
The only real difference is that it changes from 36" Salvo 2/3 (and thus being 18" range and 2 shots when moving) for full RoF and range when moving... but also a lesser overall range.
The Heavy Psycannon gaining Shred on the Blast mode is to help make it a more attractive option.
These changes make Psycannons a good general purpose weapon- capable of hurting most infantry, and not a few MCs, and is also capable of really hampering the enemy's psykers (due to Psi-Shock being auto-Perils upon unsaved wound). It also helps GKs out with handling vehicles, but not so much so as to be ultra-spammy and make high-AV units a deadweight on the field. This is also why it's a single shot, with "only" 24" of range. Also, keep in mind that Haywire actually ignores the regular armor penetration mechanics- you roll on the Haywire Chart:
1: No Effect
2-5: Glancing Hit
6: Penetrating Hit
As such, a Strength value is unnecessary and redundant; the "regular" mode already has a Strength value (and a pretty good one too), while the AP is also of little use. I could be persuaded to put AP2 on the Haywire profile, allowing for a Penetrating hit via the Haywire table to also get a +1 on the damage table... but I'll need to see some convincing arguments first. If anybody thinks Haywire needs a Strength value... look at the multi-shot profile. Now look at the Haywire. Now look back and forth a few more times. Now realize that the Haywire profile does not need a Strength value, as it would have to be an unreasonably large value in order to compete with 2-3 S6 shots.
Nemesis Force Weapons
Pretty simple; Halberds, Daemonhammers, Warding Staves, and Greatswords are unchanged. The following weapons will have the annotated changes:
Spoiler:
Nemesis Force Swords:
S:User AP3 Force, Daemonbane, Parry
Parry: a model with a weapon with this trait gains a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat. If the user already has an invulnerable save, then he instead gains +1 to his save. A save gained or improved in this way may not be improved to be better than a 3+ save.
Nemesis Falchions:
Change cost from +4 ppm to +2 ppm; given that the default Swords are now more defensive in nature, the additional offense of the Falchions isn't worth a quite large 4 ppm. This also more cleanly lines up with Halberds, which offer +1S and are 2 ppm.
Nemesis Force Swords gaining Parry makes them a little more flavorful, and also more useful. The removal of the original disallowing of save re-rolling is to prevent the Brotherhood Champion's Blade Shield stance from being non-functional, and it's quite frankly easier to not say anything about save re-rolling than to have a specific exception. There is, however, a specific exception that you can't get a better than 3++ in combat only from the Parry rule.
Falchions going down in cost is to make them more viable, as they're quite overpriced IMO compared to Halberds.
Also, there's a new kid on the block insofar as Nemesis Force weapons:
Nemesis Doomglaive
Spoiler:
S:User x2 AP2 Force, Daemonbane, Articulated
Articulated: A model armed with a weapon that has this trait may choose to attack at S:User instead of S:x2, and may then attack in one of the following manners:
Sweep Attack: the owning model makes a single attack against every enemy model in base contact, at Initiative step 1.
Rapid Assault: the owning model attacks at its Initiative value as normal, and gains the Rampage rule
More-or-less, you get what is basically a Dread CCW with the Nemesis Force Weapon traits (IE, Daemonbane and Force), and the option to use the model's base Strength and either make a single S6/AP2 Force attack against all enemies in base contact, or gain Rampage and S6/AP2.
This particular weapon is intended for Dreadnoughts, though an alternative is to give them the Cleansing Flame power instead of Sanctuary.
Thoughts on Grey Knight Infantry and Special Weapon allowances
More-or-less, there's a very easy fix to the problem that Purifiers are just way better Purgation squads. It's thusly:
Purifiers may take up to two weapons from the Special Weapon list.
This allows Purifiers to do double special at 5-man, for MSU builds, but also allows them to be kitted up as assault infantry (which is what they are) by taking more mans. It also preserves the shooty intention of Purgation Squads, who can get more specials into the squad. I'm also tempted to allow Purgation Squads to take Conversion Beamers as well, for a "dedicated" long-range anti-tank option... but I'm not sure of whether or not that would work well with the army's design ethos.
Fixing Purifiers
Yeah, they're a bit too good for what they cost. IMO, they should have the above "nerf" in that they are limited to 2 specials in the squad total, but they can take both at min-size (which is nifty for MSU), but Purifiers should probably lose ML2 and instead become ML1. GKs don't really have issues with harnessing WC, given that they can generate a lot of it, so this change isn't that big a deal- Purifiers are already fantastic short-range shooting/assault units, and with the upgrades to the various weapons, as well as cheaper Falchions and defensively-minded Swords, they'll still be fantastic.
EDIT:
Experiment 626 wrote: Also, would be interesting to see just how silly broken Poison 3+/Force Psilencers that can move & shoot at full range would be against your typical T4/5 4+ save unit... And for added lols, I'm sure these would obliterate Wraiths as well.
It's not too bad actually- against Wraiths, for example, you'll probably kill one Wraith every turn if you activate Force. Where it really gets crazy is at it scales up against T6+ targets- a single Poison 3+ Psilencer can instagib pretty much any MC with a 3+ save (of any kind) or worse.
Realistically, then, Poison 3+ doesn't make much difference against infantry, it's when they scale up to T6+ models that they get insane.
An explanation for my proposed Grey Knight Special Weapons.
The first thing that needs to be acknowledged is that the Grey Knights are the smallest non-super-heavy army in the game. In any typical game, the opponent will have more units than the Grey Knights because the Grey Knights units have higher base costs due to their starting equipment. But for all of this increased cost, they are no better at surviving their opponents’ attacks. So the only way to justify the extra expense if their equipment doesn’t help them survive is if it makes them better able to kill other units or grants them the mobility to snag objectives. Most Grey Knight units do not have increased mobility, and those that do have even higher base costs to account for it, so the best justification for their cost is their lethal abilities.
The Grey Knights are glass cannons, at least relative to their cost per model. They have greater ability to kill (per model), but they have fewer models and do not have increased survivability which means they will be slain in the sheer volume of fire other armies can produce. So the only way for the Grey Knights to be able to earn their points back are if they are able to do so within the first couple turns. If they haven’t made a significant dent in the enemy’s lines by turn two, there likely won’t be much of a Grey Knight army left (if any) by the end of turn 4.
Incinerator. One of the better Template weapons in the game. This weapon does not need any changes. Its limited range for anti-hoarde is a handicap shared by several other Codexes.
Psilencer: 24”, S4, AP-, Assault 6, Poisoned 3+, Force. Several other armies have good long-range anti-hoarde weapons, and I wanted to make the Psilencer a good mid-range anti-hoarde weapon. After considerable thought, I’ve decided to propose a different profile with much diminished anti-hoarde potential, but re-instituting Force to allow it anti Monstrous Creature potential.
6 shots with BS4, hitting on 3s will cause 4 Hits.
Against any enemy T3+ it will wound on 3s, causing 2.67 Wounds
5+ Save = 1.78 unsaved Wounds
4+ Save = 1.33 unsaved Wounds
3+ Save = 0.89 unsaved Wounds
2+ Save = 0.44 unsaved Wounds
*Note that these do not take into account casting Force, which is NOT a certainty, so these are the statistical chances of causing Wounds, while the statistical chance of inflicting Instant Death on a Monstrous Creature is lower. There are too many variables to show them all.
Reducing the Poisoned rule to a Poisoned (4+) would reduce the calculated number of unsaved Wounds against a 3+ save to 0.67 unsaved Wounds. I suspect that might be a better balance for the weapon’s current 10pt cost. I do find it interesting that those who argue that something is too good, they never suggest an appropriate price for the proposition, only demanding a nerf or exclusion.
Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending, Lance. The current version of the Psycannon is the Grey Knights only anti-vehicle Special Weapon option, though it isn’t particularly good with anything above AV12. The addition of Lance makes it able to handle higher armors as if they were AV12, but does not affect the lower AV vehicles.
The Psycannon needs the bonus to the damage table that Rending supplies. Rolls of 6 count as AP2, granting a +1 on the Damage Table. The +D3 of Rending doesn’t harm or help, being as 7+6 is already S13, when Lance means nothing counts as higher than AV12. The alternative would be to simply make the weapon AP2, and between the two options, I believe Rending would cause fewer freakouts.
2/4 shots with BS4, hitting on 3s will cause 1.33/2.67 Hits
Against AV12+ it will glance on a 5, taking off 0.44/0.89 Hull Points, with half being Penetrating Hits
Against AV11 it will glance on a 4, taking off 0.66/1.33 Hull Points, with 3/4 being Penetrating Hits
Against AV10 it will glance on a 3, taking off 0.89/1.78 Hull Points, with half being Penetrating Hits
The increased range compensates for Salvo, making the mobile range a useable 18”, while they can only make use of the maximum range of 36” by being stationary and sacrificing the shooting of the unit’s Storm Bolters.
Whiskey144 wrote: So, after even more thought, I think I've condensed some of my thoughts down a bit. Also, a "Quote For Truth" would be appreciated, to maximize idea exposure.
First off, let's consider GK Special Weapons, what they currently are intended to do, what they actually do, what they should do, and how we can make that transition. Before I begin, I will first note that Incinerators and Heavy Incinerators are mechanically fine; all that is necessary, IMO, is to do the following:
Incinerators, Heavy Incinerators
Spoiler:
Simply put, Heavy Incinerators should be an optional upgrade for Razorbacks, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raider Redeemers.
I would recommend that a single Heavy Incinerator be available to the Razorback/Dreadnought/DK for +20 points;
A Land Raider Redeemer, OTOH, can exchange it's Flamestorm Cannons for Heavy Incinerators for +5 points. Land Raiders are already overpriced, and you're losing the amazing AP3+Ignores Cover in favor of gaining greater flexibility via Torrent.
So, let's move on to Psilencers.
Psilencers right now have a design that is intended to make them good killers of multi-wound infantry. The problem is that they're only good against T4 multi-wound; against T3, the Psycannon is better. Against T5, again, the Psilencer is better. Against MCs? Psycannons again. So that makes Psilencers an ultimately flawed weapon. How do we fix that?
Well, I think it comes down to what we want Psilencers to do. I personally feel that they should retain the anti-multi-wound infantry aspect; the current profile is actually not bad at the job, it's just that Psycannon overshadows it in so many other roles against any other target type- and even some of the targets Psilencers are "supposed" to be good at killing- that the Psilencer really needs to get a pick-me-up of some kind. So, that leaves a decision to be made:
Should Psilencers be given an anti-GEQ mode?
-OR-
Should Psilencers be given an anti-MC mode?
My own opinion is that an anti-GEQ mode is a better choice. To that end, I'd like to recommend the following:
Psilencers, Gatling Psilencers
Spoiler:
Psilencers would have the following profile:
24" Assault 6 S4 AP- Force
Gatling Psilencers would retain their current profile, which is:
24" Heavy 12 S4 AP- Force
In addition, I think that one of the following options should be considered as the alternate profile; while I do not think that an anti-MC "mode" is the best option, I will include one anyways, for the purposes of discussion and comparison with other parts of this post:
Using the Psilencer as a base, the secondary profile would be:
24" Assault 6 S:X AP- Poison (4+) {an anti-MC option}
24" Assault 6 S5 AP- Shred {anti-GEQ/light infantry}
24" Assault 6 S5 AP- Pinning {alternate anti-GEQ profile}
[For the Gatling Psilencer, substitute Assault 6 for Heavy 12]
For those who are curious, Poison 3+ is a bit over the top, and also infringes on DE Poison weapons- the only Poison shooting that's better than the DE tends to be very expensive and also short ranged (as in, best weight of fire is at 12"). Poison 4+ strikes a better balance; on average a Psilencer with Poison 4+ will put 2 wounds onto a MC before saves are taken, so typically it'll be ~0.67 unsaved wounds. Which sounds unimpressive, but keep in mind that Psilencers are still relatively cheap- 10 points for PAGKs- and can be taken in numbers fairly easily. Four such weapons would produce ~2.7 unsaved wounds- that's very nearly 3 unsaved wounds, and a typical MC has 4 wounds; being able to take of 50-75% of those wounds in a single round of shooting with four Psilencers is pretty well balanced for the Psilencer's current price.
For the anti-GEQ option, S5+Shred means ultra-reliable wounding against T3 infantry. It also allows for surprisingly good results against T6 targets (IE, MCs); S5+Shred will have an ~55% wounding rate against T6, so you're looking at surprisingly comparable results to a Poison 4+ Psilencer, but with added capability against T3/T4/T5 infantry models.
The tradeoff is that Poison 4+ would be more desirable for facing T7+ targets- mostly Wraithknights, if we're honest. Alternately, Shred could be dropped from the S5 profile and exchanged for Pinning. It's got potential, I think, but it's not quite as nice as it could be due to only having 24" of range.
For the record, replacing Poison 4+ with Fleshbane isn't quite balanced, IMO. A squad of 4 can torrent down any 3+ MC, while still maintaining a blazing effectiveness against lighter targets. 4+ Poison sacrifices effectiveness against low-T enemies; as an example, Kabalite Warriors are quite inefficient when in a firefight with other T3 infantry- it's when they shoot at very high T targets that they really shine. Fleshbane, being functionally 2+ Poison, means that the degree of equal effectiveness remains "ultra-high"; there's no tradeoff and it's almost impossible to not put wounds onto anything. Basically, Fleshbane Psilencers have no functional weakness against Toughness-based targets.
So that's Psilencers. Let's tackle the enormous number of elephants in the room, with Psycannons. I'll start with my suggested profile first, and then explain the reasoning behind the design.
Heavy Psycannon 36" Heavy 6 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock
36" Heavy 1 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock, Large (5") Blast, Shred
24" Assault 2 SX AP- Haywire
I'm sure a lot of people will be surprised by this suggestion, especially coming from me. Ultimately, a lot of people seem to have the opinion that Psycannons are "AV". I disagree quite a bit with this idea... but Psycannons are bolt weapons, and one of the shining virtues of bolt weapons is that they have a lot of versatility due to their ammunition.
Enter the "Tempest Bolt". For those who do not know, one of the background ammo types for Bolters is the "Tempest" shell. While described as a proximity-burst frag round in the HH rules, the original incarnation (that I know of, at least) was a variation on Haywire weaponry. In terms of fluff, it can easily be explained as Psycannons having a dual munition feed, or even a GK hand-loading each Tempest Bolt for firing; in the case of a dual munition feed, lower RoF is fluffed as the Tempest "hopper" having a significantly lower capacity than the standard "Psybolt" hopper.
And now perhaps the greatest change: no more S7/AP4/Rending, instead S6/AP3 Psi-Shock. So, firstly, Psycannons have generally been written in the background as firing Heavy Bolter-size shells. Heavy Bolters only gain +1S for loading Psybolt ammo (according to the "old" rules for such). I wanted to represent the greater capability of the Psycannon when used with Psybolts, with each bolt being psychically activated by the GK firer. So, AP3 and Psi-Shock. This makes it good at killing Marines and passable at killing T6/3+ MCs; a Psycannon can reliably put 1 wound onto a T6 MC if the user sits still. Psi-Shock represents the psychic potential of each bolt, especially against psychic targets.
An alternative primary profile would be thusly:
Spoiler:
24" Assault 3 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock
The only real difference is that it changes from 36" Salvo 2/3 (and thus being 18" range and 2 shots when moving) for full RoF and range when moving... but also a lesser overall range.
The Heavy Psycannon gaining Shred on the Blast mode is to help make it a more attractive option.
These changes make Psycannons a good general purpose weapon- capable of hurting most infantry, and not a few MCs, and is also capable of really hampering the enemy's psykers (due to Psi-Shock being auto-Perils upon unsaved wound). It also helps GKs out with handling vehicles, but not so much so as to be ultra-spammy and make high-AV units a deadweight on the field. This is also why it's a single shot, with "only" 24" of range. Also, keep in mind that Haywire actually ignores the regular armor penetration mechanics- you roll on the Haywire Chart:
1: No Effect
2-5: Glancing Hit
6: Penetrating Hit
As such, a Strength value is unnecessary and redundant; the "regular" mode already has a Strength value (and a pretty good one too), while the AP is also of little use. I could be persuaded to put AP2 on the Haywire profile, allowing for a Penetrating hit via the Haywire table to also get a +1 on the damage table... but I'll need to see some convincing arguments first. If anybody thinks Haywire needs a Strength value... look at the multi-shot profile. Now look at the Haywire. Now look back and forth a few more times. Now realize that the Haywire profile does not need a Strength value, as it would have to be an unreasonably large value in order to compete with 2-3 S6 shots.
Nemesis Force Weapons
Pretty simple; Halberds, Daemonhammers, Warding Staves, and Greatswords are unchanged. The following weapons will have the annotated changes:
Spoiler:
Nemesis Force Swords:
S:User AP3 Force, Daemonbane, Parry
Parry: a model with a weapon with this trait gains a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat. If the user already has an invulnerable save, then he instead gains +1 to his save. A save gained or improved in this way may not be improved to be better than a 3+ save.
Nemesis Falchions:
Change cost from +4 ppm to +2 ppm; given that the default Swords are now more defensive in nature, the additional offense of the Falchions isn't worth a quite large 4 ppm. This also more cleanly lines up with Halberds, which offer +1S and are 2 ppm.
Nemesis Force Swords gaining Parry makes them a little more flavorful, and also more useful. The removal of the original disallowing of save re-rolling is to prevent the Brotherhood Champion's Blade Shield stance from being non-functional, and it's quite frankly easier to not say anything about save re-rolling than to have a specific exception. There is, however, a specific exception that you can't get a better than 3++ in combat only from the Parry rule.
Falchions going down in cost is to make them more viable, as they're quite overpriced IMO compared to Halberds.
Also, there's a new kid on the block insofar as Nemesis Force weapons:
Nemesis Doomglaive
Spoiler:
S:User x2 AP2 Force, Daemonbane, Articulated
Articulated: A model armed with a weapon that has this trait may choose to attack at S:User instead of S:x2, and may then attack in one of the following manners:
Sweep Attack: the owning model makes a single attack against every enemy model in base contact, at Initiative step 1.
Rapid Assault: the owning model attacks at its Initiative value as normal, and gains the Rampage rule
More-or-less, you get what is basically a Dread CCW with the Nemesis Force Weapon traits (IE, Daemonbane and Force), and the option to use the model's base Strength and either make a single S6/AP2 Force attack against all enemies in base contact, or gain Rampage and S6/AP2.
This particular weapon is intended for Dreadnoughts, though an alternative is to give them the Cleansing Flame power instead of Sanctuary.
Thoughts on Grey Knight Infantry and Special Weapon allowances
More-or-less, there's a very easy fix to the problem that Purifiers are just way better Purgation squads. It's thusly:
Purifiers may take up to two weapons from the Special Weapon list.
This allows Purifiers to do double special at 5-man, for MSU builds, but also allows them to be kitted up as assault infantry (which is what they are) by taking more mans. It also preserves the shooty intention of Purgation Squads, who can get more specials into the squad. I'm also tempted to allow Purgation Squads to take Conversion Beamers as well, for a "dedicated" long-range anti-tank option... but I'm not sure of whether or not that would work well with the army's design ethos.
Fixing Purifiers
Yeah, they're a bit too good for what they cost. IMO, they should have the above "nerf" in that they are limited to 2 specials in the squad total, but they can take both at min-size (which is nifty for MSU), but Purifiers should probably lose ML2 and instead become ML1. GKs don't really have issues with harnessing WC, given that they can generate a lot of it, so this change isn't that big a deal- Purifiers are already fantastic short-range shooting/assault units, and with the upgrades to the various weapons, as well as cheaper Falchions and defensively-minded Swords, they'll still be fantastic.
EDIT:
Experiment 626 wrote: Also, would be interesting to see just how silly broken Poison 3+/Force Psilencers that can move & shoot at full range would be against your typical T4/5 4+ save unit... And for added lols, I'm sure these would obliterate Wraiths as well.
It's not too bad actually- against Wraiths, for example, you'll probably kill one Wraith every turn if you activate Force. Where it really gets crazy is at it scales up against T6+ targets- a single Poison 3+ Psilencer can instagib pretty much any MC with a 3+ save (of any kind) or worse.
Realistically, then, Poison 3+ doesn't make much difference against infantry, it's when they scale up to T6+ models that they get insane.
The basic Space Marine Troop Choice is the Tactical Marine. They are 70 points. The basic Grey Knight is the Strike Squad. They are 110 points they are 157% the cost of the Tactical Marines but don't have one iota of better survivability than the Tactical marines do.
Purifiers are 125pts base, 179% the cost of Tactical Marines, with no increased survivability. Some of this difference is paying for Cleansing Flame and the second Mastery Level to cast it.
Interceptors are 130pts base, 186% of the cost of Tactical Marines with no increased survivability. Though some of this difference is paying for the mobility of Personal Teleporters.
As I said, if the Grey Knights haven't made a sizable dent in the enemy's army by turn 2, the Grey Knights will be in danger of being tabled by turn 4. If an enemy has vehicles in their army, and they take out the couple Psycannons in our army, we're sunk, because that was the extent of our ranged anti-AV, and trying to take down Vehicles in melee will typically take multiple rounds, which the Grey Knights can't afford to be tied up for, due to 7th edition's emphesis on lots of cheaper units zooming around to ever-changing objectives.
"The basic Space Marine Troop Choice is the Tactical Marine. They are 70 points. The basic Grey Knight is the Strike Squad. They are 110 points they are 157% the cost of the Tactical Marines but don't have one iota of better survivability than the Tactical marines do.
Purifiers are 125pts base, 179% the cost of Tactical Marines, with no increased survivability. Some of this difference is paying for Cleansing Flame and the second Mastery Level to cast it.
Interceptors are 130pts base, 186% of the cost of Tactical Marines with no increased survivability. Though some of this difference is paying for the mobility of Personal Teleporters. "
That's actually outright bad, imo. The Eldar lol all over this. Even fewer Astartes to mercilessly gun down!
f course they are more expensive than a tactical marine, you get lvl 1 psycer, ap3 force weapons and a storm bolter! How can you complain about it being expensive when you combine the cost of gear you should cost over double what you do!
I find the problem with gks is that the dk is too much of a go to option because it is hugely op and needs a tone down or at least a large point increase.
The army as a whole isn't bad, just the dk is op in comparison to the other options (probably why you always see the civil partnership in the lists)
I'd say these edits to the dk would round the dex off
WS changed to 4
No access to become s10 the only way to increase s if using hammerhand. No access to shunt moves and remove the 5++ and make it have to be cast off to get it.
"f course they are more expensive than a tactical marine, you get lvl 1 psycer, ap3 force weapons and a storm bolter! How can you complain about it being expensive when you combine the cost of gear you should cost over double what you do! "
Because durability/pt matters. A lot. Go play the Necrons and get back to me. All the fancy dohickies you just listed don't mean a thing when the Eldar are pumping in 50+ S6/7 shots a turn and not giving a feth about your return fire. The bottom line is that combat gear shouldn't cost what it costs in the first place because good lists don't care about any of it. Just like good armies don't care about the gear on tac marines.
Bill1138 wrote: The basic Space Marine Troop Choice is the Tactical Marine. They are 70 points. The basic Grey Knight is the Strike Squad. They are 110 points they are 157% the cost of the Tactical Marines but don't have one iota of better survivability than the Tactical marines do.
As I said, if the Grey Knights haven't made a sizable dent in the enemy's army by turn 2, the Grey Knights will be in danger of being tabled by turn 4. If an enemy has vehicles in their army, and they take out the couple Psycannons in our army, we're sunk, because that was the extent of our ranged anti-AV, and trying to take down Vehicles in melee will typically take multiple rounds, which the Grey Knights can't afford to be tied up for, due to 7th edition's emphesis on lots of cheaper units zooming around to ever-changing objectives.
The basic GK troop is the Terminator, the strike squad is more along the lines of SM Scouts since they're the vanguard for GKs (since GKs are SM+1).
They do not have increased survivability because they have increased offensive output in shooting (storm boters), 100% more output from psychic abilities and far superior combat (ap3 everywhere and the ability to be S7! {Which is higher than most MCs}).
If they had increased survivability on top of this, then they'd be broken like the Dreadknight, Wraithknight, Imperial Knight, TWC and Riptide.
Now onto the next part:
You do know that you have S6/7 on all of your guys in combat, don't you? Same as S10 (for some reason) on the Dreadknight that GK players always spam, so taking out vehicles is no problem, you just go at it from a different angle.
7th ed's empasisis is on fast units and the Dreadknight is definitely one of the fastest and most survivable in the game.
SGTPozy wrote: The basic GK troop is the Terminator, the strike squad is more along the lines of SM Scouts since they're the vanguard for GKs (since GKs are SM+1).
False analagy. The most average Power Armored Troop Choice in terms of their traits and gear for the vanilla Marines and Grey Knights are the Tactical Squad and the Strike Squad. That the vanilla Marines have a lighter Scout Armor option or that the Grey Knights have a Terminator option is inconsequential.
Strike Squads are not Scouts. They do not have any of the special rules that would allow them to field a Scout's role. The Tactical Squad is their closest comparison in the vanilla Marine Codex.
Similarly the Grey Knight Terminators would most accurately be compared to the vanilla Marines closest equivalent, which is their own Terminators.
They do not have increased survivability because they have increased offensive output in shooting (storm boters), 100% more output from psychic abilities and far superior combat (ap3 everywhere and the ability to be S7! {Which is higher than most MCs}).
Please repeat after me: "7th edition 40k is all about the Movement, and Shooting Phase, so Melee prowess isn't nearly as valuable." The Grey Knights are extremely small, and have few units capable of decent mobility. Grey Knights are nothing special in the Movement Phase. But because the army is so small, and are limited to Storm Bolters for most of their models in all of their units, they are effectively a non-factor in the shooting phase. 7th Edition is full of Monstrous Creatures and vehicles with AV11+, all of which the Storm Bolters have a negligible chance of damaging, if they have any at all. And even when they're up against infantry armies, there are such waves of firepower coming into them that they'll die due to sheer volume of fire. Most Grey Knight units don't survive to get into close combat, or if they do, they're so outnumbered that they get finished off by the other unit in spite of the fact that they have Nemesis Force Weapons (as often as not).
Also, S6+ (with Hammerhand) isn't nearly as powerful when most of your units have only one attack per model, as is the case with the Grey Knights, Our better units have two, but adding an extra attack with Falchions makes already over-priced units even more expensive.
One more point about your statement being objectively wrong, Monstrous Creatures have the Smash special rule, which means they have AP2 on their Close Combat attacks, and even if they don't have a weapon that hits at S10, they can make a Smash attack at S10. And, some of them attack at I5, which means they can typically kill off a unit (or a significant portion of it) before it has the chance to attack back. So the other Codexes Monstrous Creatures are better at killing than the Grey Knight units.
If they had increased survivability on top of this, then they'd be broken like the Dreadknight, Wraithknight, Imperial Knight, TWC and Riptide.
Do not equate the Dreadknight to those others. The Dreadknight is one of the least survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game. It most certainly is not "broken". If a Grey Knight army fielded nothing but Dreadknights, they'd still not win more than half of their games against other Codexes. Other armies can spam high-strength, AP2 which would wound the Dreadknight on 4s or better and ignore his armor save, meaning he'd have rely on his Invulnerable Save, which any Daemon player will tell you that a 5++ is not impressive odds for survival. And don't go on a rant about Sanctuary, because it isn't guaranteed to go off, and my opponents always save their dice to deny it, to ensure that the Dreadknight goes down easily.
Now onto the next part:
You do know that you have S6/7 on all of your guys in combat, don't you? Same as S10 (for some reason) on the Dreadknight that GK players always spam, so taking out vehicles is no problem, you just go at it from a different angle.
I already addressed this. Close Combat prowess is not particularly relevant in 7th Edition 40k. And even if it were, other armies have I5 models that have access to AP3, to remove my Grey Knights before they have a chance to attack back. If you want an example, the Death Cult Assassin from the Inquisition attacks at I5, and has two Power Weapons, which means she gets an extra attack at AP3, and she's only 15pts, AND she still gets a 5++ Invulnerable Save in close combat that my PAGK do not. That is a much cheaper unit that is much better at close combat. In fact Inquisition can use Henchmen to build a unit that is statistically better than the Strike Squad at virtually everything for the same price.
7th ed's empasisis is on fast units and the Dreadknight is definitely one of the fastest and most survivable in the game.
False. The Dreadknight has the standard 12" movement for Jump units, and 40k has other units that are more mobile, such as the Eldar that can turbo-boost and shoot. And the Dreadknight is among the least survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game, as I said above.
I'm not complaining about the Dreadknight's power or pricing. But it is objectively not over-powered in the scheme of 7th Edition 40k.
SGTPozy wrote: The basic GK troop is the Terminator, the strike squad is more along the lines of SM Scouts since they're the vanguard for GKs (since GKs are SM+1).
False analagy. The most average Power Armored Troop Choice in terms of their traits and gear for the vanilla Marines and Grey Knights are the Tactical Squad and the Strike Squad. That the vanilla Marines have a lighter Scout Armor option or that the Grey Knights have a Terminator option is inconsequential.
Strike Squads are not Scouts. They do not have any of the special rules that would allow them to field a Scout's role. The Tactical Squad is their closest comparison in the vanilla Marine Codex.
Similarly the Grey Knight Terminators would most accurately be compared to the vanilla Marines closest equivalent, which is their own Terminators.
GKs are more about Terminator armour than Power armour, so their basic troop choice is the Terminator and Strike Squads are the vanguard. Read the codex's fluff and then this will become obvious.
I never said that Strike squads were scouts, I said that they were the equivalent as they do not make up the bulk of the army since they are either the vanguard or scouts
They do not have increased survivability because they have increased offensive output in shooting (storm boters), 100% more output from psychic abilities and far superior combat (ap3 everywhere and the ability to be S7! {Which is higher than most MCs}).
Please repeat after me: "7th edition 40k is all about the Movement, and Shooting Phase, so Melee prowess isn't nearly as valuable." The Grey Knights are extremely small, and have few units capable of decent mobility. Grey Knights are nothing special in the Movement Phase. But because the army is so small, and are limited to Storm Bolters for most of their models in all of their units, they are effectively a non-factor in the shooting phase. 7th Edition is full of Monstrous Creatures and vehicles with AV11+, all of which the Storm Bolters have a negligible chance of damaging, if they have any at all. And even when they're up against infantry armies, there are such waves of firepower coming into them that they'll die due to sheer volume of fire. Most Grey Knight units don't survive to get into close combat, or if they do, they're so outnumbered that they get finished off by the other unit in spite of the fact that they have Nemesis Force Weapons.
I cannot repeat that as that would be lying. Psychic shenanigans are very important, and you have the best access to warp charges. Whilst other armies have to make a decision about which powers to use, a GK can just steal the warp charges from their other units (like 4 from a combat squaded Purifier squad) to get off all of the Librarian's powers.
If you think that combat sucks then you clearly haven't played against Necrons, SW, Daemonkin etc.
GKs alpha strike, so you have the best movement since you can deploy your army wherever you want.
GKs are nowhere near as bad as you say, they do win 60% of their games (more than Eldar).
Also, S6+ (with Hammerhand) isn't nearly as powerful when most of your units have only one attack per model, as is the case with the Grey Knights, Our better units have two, but adding an extra attack with Falchions makes already over-priced units even more expensive.
GKs need a weakness somewhere, they can't only have strengths.
If they had increased survivability on top of this, then they'd be broken like the Dreadknight, Wraithknight, Imperial Knight, TWC and Riptide.
Do not equate the Dreadknight to those others. The Dreadknight is one of the least survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game. It most certainly is not "broken". If a Grey Knight army fielded nothing but Dreadknights, they'd still not win more than half of their games against other Codexes. Other armies can spam high-strength, AP2 which would wound the Dreadknight on 4s or better and ignore his armor save, meaning he'd have rely on his Invulnerable Save, which any Daemon player will tell you that a 5++ is not impressive odds for survival. And don't go on a rant about Sanctuary, because it isn't guaranteed to go off, and my opponents always save their dice to deny it, to ensure that the Dreadknight goes down easily.
You serious? The Dreadknight is the biggest offender there since it is the cheapest, best mobility, best psychic abilities, awesome shooting and durability and the best combat.
If they die easily then cover clearly isn't being used well.
How are the other two so survivable then?
Also, the Haruspex is the worst MC in the game...
Now onto the next part:
You do know that you have S6/7 on all of your guys in combat, don't you? Same as S10 (for some reason) on the Dreadknight that GK players always spam, so taking out vehicles is no problem, you just go at it from a different angle.
I already addressed this. Close Combat prowess is not particularly relevant in 7th Edition 40k. And even if it were, other armies have I5 models that have access to AP3, to remove my Grey Knights before they have a chance to attack back. If you want an example, the Death Cult Assassin from the Inquisition attacks at I5, and has two Power Weapons, which means she gets an extra attack at AP3, and she's only 15pts, AND she still gets a 5++ Invulnerable Save in close combat that my PAGK do not. That is a much cheaper unit that is much better at close combat. In fact Inquisition can use Henchmen to build a unit that is statistically better than the Strike Squad at virtually everything for the same price.
Why do you keep comparing things to Strike squads? Terminators are used far more often.
7th ed's empasisis is on fast units and the Dreadknight is definitely one of the fastest and most survivable in the game.
False. The Dreadknight has the standard 12" movement for Jump units, and 40k has other units that are more mobile, such as the Eldar that can turbo-boost and shoot. And the Dreadknight is among the least survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game, as I said above.
False analagy. The most average Power Armored Troop Choice in terms of their traits and gear for the vanilla Marines and Grey Knights are the Tactical Squad and the Strike Squad. That the vanilla Marines have a lighter Scout Armor option or that the Grey Knights have a Terminator option is inconsequential.
Strike Squads are not Scouts. They do not have any of the special rules that would allow them to field a Scout's role. The Tactical Squad is their closest comparison in the vanilla Marine Codex.
Similarly the Grey Knight Terminators would most accurately be compared to the vanilla Marines closest equivalent, which is their own Terminators.
Actually, GK Termies more closely compare to both Space Wolf and Chaos Termies due to the sheer level of flexibility they all have... Oh, and yours get grenades because... "reasons."
You really cannot complain in any way about your Termies, as they're easily the game's top Terminator option by a wide margin...
Strikes could definitely do with gaining the Scout USR to help them play more like their background says they do, which would also give additional flexibility and options when taking a Rhino/Razorback as a dedicated transport.
At most, Tac Marines could do with a drop to 13pts a pop to bring them in line with Chaos Marines (who only need their own similar Chapter Tactics & ATSKNF equivalents), and thus allow the basic PA Grey Knight to probably come down to 18pts a dude.
Bill1138 wrote: Please repeat after me: "7th edition 40k is all about the Movement, and Shooting Phase, so Melee prowess isn't nearly as valuable." The Grey Knights are extremely small, and have few units capable of decent mobility. Grey Knights are nothing special in the Movement Phase. But because the army is so small, and are limited to Storm Bolters for most of their models in all of their units, they are effectively a non-factor in the shooting phase. 7th Edition is full of Monstrous Creatures and vehicles with AV11+, all of which the Storm Bolters have a negligible chance of damaging, if they have any at all. And even when they're up against infantry armies, there are such waves of firepower coming into them that they'll die due to sheer volume of fire. Most Grey Knight units don't survive to get into close combat, or if they do, they're so outnumbered that they get finished off by the other unit in spite of the fact that they have Nemesis Force Weapons.
Also, S6+ (with Hammerhand) isn't nearly as powerful when most of your units have only one attack per model, as is the case with the Grey Knights, Our better units have two, but adding an extra attack with Falchions makes already over-priced units even more expensive.
A lot also depends on what type of 7th ed you're playing too... If you're only ever fielding 100% optimised "Competitive Tournament" type lists, and then playing games on planet Blowing Ball with just a few hills and the odd forest or three, then sure, Marines suck hardcore against the likes of Eldar, Tau, Gravbikers, Centstars, etc...
As for your supposed utter lack of mobility outside of 'Ceptors/Knights... Strikes, Purifiers & Purgators can all take a Rhino or Razorback. Strikes, Termies & 'Ceptors have Deep Strike. Draigo is guaranteed GoI, while Lv3 Libby's rolling on Santic run a roughly 60% shot at landing it as well. While expensive, there are still Stormravens & Land Raiders. And the Imperial BFF club can also lend Drop Pods to the mix as well.
You're plenty mobile if you want to be. Maybe not Eldar levels of speedy, but then, speed is supposed to be the Eldar's thing. (and the only problem with the Wave Serpent is the damn shield!)
I'd honestly be quite interest to know what kind of force you typically run, and what you typically come up against... I find it hard to believe that opposing armies are always throwing down masses of av11+ alongside multiple MC's, and/or "waves of infantry" that always outgun the poor defenseless Grey Knights.
Bill1138 wrote: Do not equate the Dreadknight to those others. The Dreadknight is one of the least survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game. It most certainly is not "broken". If a Grey Knight army fielded nothing but Dreadknights, they'd still not win more than half of their games against other Codexes. Other armies can spam high-strength, AP2 which would wound the Dreadknight on 4s or better and ignore his armor save, meaning he'd have rely on his Invulnerable Save, which any Daemon player will tell you that a 5++ is not impressive odds for survival. And don't go on a rant about Sanctuary, because it isn't guaranteed to go off, and my opponents always save their dice to deny it, to ensure that the Dreadknight goes down easily.
I have to chuckle at this. A T6/W4, 2+/5++ with Masterly lv1 & guaranteed access to Sanctuary is plenty survivable. I daresay, it's definitely far more survivable than the vast majority of Tyranid beasties, the non-Gargantuan Ork Squiggoths, Wraithlords, the Avatar, the Nightbringer/Deceiver, stock Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes...
Again, outside of the hyper optimised lists, what armies beyond Serpent Spam Eldar are putting out masses of high strength ap2 shooting that outrange the Dreadknight's threat zones?
And honestly, if you're not getting Sanctuary off against non-Daemon/Psyker spam Eldar/other GK's, then you simply need to learn how to better run your Psychic phase... If you 100% absolutely *need* Sanctuary for a turn, then you should easily be getting it against the vast majority of armies, as most struggle to get more than 6-8 WC's at best.
And if your opponent *IS* simply blowing their entire dispel pool on just your 1 casting of Sanctuary, they're giving you free reign to cast whatever the hell else you want! Run the proper psychic lores and you can really punish opponents for such foolishness.
As for a 5++ being trash... I'm a Daemon player, and that 5++ tends to be a lot more reliable than most give it credit for. (But then, the majority of Daemon players are also really, really, really good at passing 5++ saves for some reason. )
Bill1138 wrote: I already addressed this. Close Combat prowess is not particularly relevant in 7th Edition 40k. And even if it were, other armies have I5 models that have access to AP3, to remove my Grey Knights before they have a chance to attack back. If you want an example, the Death Cult Assassin from the Inquisition attacks at I5, and has two Power Weapons, which means she gets an extra attack at AP3, and she's only 15pts, AND she still gets a 5++ Invulnerable Save in close combat that my PAGK do not. That is a much cheaper unit that is much better at close combat. In fact Inquisition can use Henchmen to build a unit that is statistically better than the Strike Squad at virtually everything for the same price.
Deathcult Assassins also die to a stiff breeze when shot, and their only damage output comes in assaults. Your basic Grey Knight on the other hand competes decently in all phases, including the Psychic phase!
The vast majority of assault units that have high initiative ap3 or better attacks tend to be glass cannons that typically have little to no damage abilities outside of the Assault phase, or else they're even more expensive than your basic Grey Knight. (or even a combination of both!)
Bill1138 wrote: False. The Dreadknight has the standard 12" movement for Jump units, and 40k has other units that are more mobile, such as the Eldar that can turbo-boost and shoot. And the Dreadknight is among the least survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game, as I said above.
I'm not complaining about the Dreadknight's power or pricing. But it is objectively not over-powered in the scheme of 7th Edition 40k.
Eldar are supposed to be the super speedy army. Crying about how they can scoot and shoot better than any Imperial army is akin to Guard players crying about how their infantry die so much faster than Terminators...
While it's true the Dreadknight isn't outright over-powered, it's still definitely ahead of the curve in the Monstrous Creature category...
At it's basic stats, it's more survivable than a basic Greater Daemon. For a small upgrade cost, it can keep pace with 3 of the 4 Greaters, and leave the Fatman in its dust.
If I want my LoC for example to reach roughly the same levels of survivability, I need to spend for a pair of Greater Rewards.
If I want to gain an advantage over the Knight in the Psychic phase, then the Kipper & GUO need to spend for an additional Mastery Lv. (LoC is base Lv2)
If I want to be reliably certain of having an advantage over the Knight in assaults, then yet again, I need to spend pts on Rewards to boost the Greater's strength and/or number of attacks.
All told, a fully tooled out Dreadknight is actually the same cost or outright cheaper than a Greater Daemon at its base cost! Yet the Dreadknight is outright more survivable, is outright terrifying in the Shooting phase, and can beat-up the Greater in combat.
For a Greater Daemon to gain an advantage over the Dreadknight in combat, you're likely required to spend at least 250pts (basic un-upgraded Bloodthirster.) For my LoC on the other hand to have a decent chance of living through a Dreadknight encounter, it costs a whopping 305pts! (and he's still wary of Force being a likely counter...)
The Dreadknight is more than fine, and is far from being one of the game's crappiest MC's. (I'm sure Tyranids still hold that claim with about 50%+ of their beasties!)
False analagy. The most average Power Armored Troop Choice in terms of their traits and gear for the vanilla Marines and Grey Knights are the Tactical Squad and the Strike Squad. That the vanilla Marines have a lighter Scout Armor option or that the Grey Knights have a Terminator option is inconsequential.
Strike Squads are not Scouts. They do not have any of the special rules that would allow them to field a Scout's role. The Tactical Squad is their closest comparison in the vanilla Marine Codex.
Similarly the Grey Knight Terminators would most accurately be compared to the vanilla Marines closest equivalent, which is their own Terminators.
Actually, GK Termies more closely compare to both Space Wolf and Chaos Termies due to the sheer level of flexibility they all have... Oh, and yours get grenades because... "reasons."
You really cannot complain in any way about your Termies, as they're easily the game's top Terminator option by a wide margin...
Strikes could definitely do with gaining the Scout USR to help them play more like their background says they do, which would also give additional flexibility and options when taking a Rhino/Razorback as a dedicated transport.
At most, Tac Marines could do with a drop to 13pts a pop to bring them in line with Chaos Marines (who only need their own similar Chapter Tactics & ATSKNF equivalents), and thus allow the basic PA Grey Knight to probably come down to 18pts a dude.
Bill1138 wrote: Please repeat after me: "7th edition 40k is all about the Movement, and Shooting Phase, so Melee prowess isn't nearly as valuable." The Grey Knights are extremely small, and have few units capable of decent mobility. Grey Knights are nothing special in the Movement Phase. But because the army is so small, and are limited to Storm Bolters for most of their models in all of their units, they are effectively a non-factor in the shooting phase. 7th Edition is full of Monstrous Creatures and vehicles with AV11+, all of which the Storm Bolters have a negligible chance of damaging, if they have any at all. And even when they're up against infantry armies, there are such waves of firepower coming into them that they'll die due to sheer volume of fire. Most Grey Knight units don't survive to get into close combat, or if they do, they're so outnumbered that they get finished off by the other unit in spite of the fact that they have Nemesis Force Weapons.
Also, S6+ (with Hammerhand) isn't nearly as powerful when most of your units have only one attack per model, as is the case with the Grey Knights, Our better units have two, but adding an extra attack with Falchions makes already over-priced units even more expensive.
A lot also depends on what type of 7th ed you're playing too... If you're only ever fielding 100% optimised "Competitive Tournament" type lists, and then playing games on planet Blowing Ball with just a few hills and the odd forest or three, then sure, Marines suck hardcore against the likes of Eldar, Tau, Gravbikers, Centstars, etc...
As for your supposed utter lack of mobility outside of 'Ceptors/Knights... Strikes, Purifiers & Purgators can all take a Rhino or Razorback. Strikes, Termies & 'Ceptors have Deep Strike. Draigo is guaranteed GoI, while Lv3 Libby's rolling on Santic run a roughly 60% shot at landing it as well. While expensive, there are still Stormravens & Land Raiders. And the Imperial BFF club can also lend Drop Pods to the mix as well.
You're plenty mobile if you want to be. Maybe not Eldar levels of speedy, but then, speed is supposed to be the Eldar's thing. (and the only problem with the Wave Serpent is the damn shield!)
I'd honestly be quite interest to know what kind of force you typically run, and what you typically come up against... I find it hard to believe that opposing armies are always throwing down masses of av11+ alongside multiple MC's, and/or "waves of infantry" that always outgun the poor defenseless Grey Knights.
Bill1138 wrote: Do not equate the Dreadknight to those others. The Dreadknight is one of the least survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game. It most certainly is not "broken". If a Grey Knight army fielded nothing but Dreadknights, they'd still not win more than half of their games against other Codexes. Other armies can spam high-strength, AP2 which would wound the Dreadknight on 4s or better and ignore his armor save, meaning he'd have rely on his Invulnerable Save, which any Daemon player will tell you that a 5++ is not impressive odds for survival. And don't go on a rant about Sanctuary, because it isn't guaranteed to go off, and my opponents always save their dice to deny it, to ensure that the Dreadknight goes down easily.
I have to chuckle at this. A T6/W4, 2+/5++ with Masterly lv1 & guaranteed access to Sanctuary is plenty survivable. I daresay, it's definitely far more survivable than the vast majority of Tyranid beasties, the non-Gargantuan Ork Squiggoths, Wraithlords, the Avatar, the Nightbringer/Deceiver, stock Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes...
Again, outside of the hyper optimised lists, what armies beyond Serpent Spam Eldar are putting out masses of high strength ap2 shooting that outrange the Dreadknight's threat zones?
And honestly, if you're not getting Sanctuary off against non-Daemon/Psyker spam Eldar/other GK's, then you simply need to learn how to better run your Psychic phase... If you 100% absolutely *need* Sanctuary for a turn, then you should easily be getting it against the vast majority of armies, as most struggle to get more than 6-8 WC's at best.
And if your opponent *IS* simply blowing their entire dispel pool on just your 1 casting of Sanctuary, they're giving you free reign to cast whatever the hell else you want! Run the proper psychic lores and you can really punish opponents for such foolishness.
As for a 5++ being trash... I'm a Daemon player, and that 5++ tends to be a lot more reliable than most give it credit for. (But then, the majority of Daemon players are also really, really, really good at passing 5++ saves for some reason. )
Bill1138 wrote: I already addressed this. Close Combat prowess is not particularly relevant in 7th Edition 40k. And even if it were, other armies have I5 models that have access to AP3, to remove my Grey Knights before they have a chance to attack back. If you want an example, the Death Cult Assassin from the Inquisition attacks at I5, and has two Power Weapons, which means she gets an extra attack at AP3, and she's only 15pts, AND she still gets a 5++ Invulnerable Save in close combat that my PAGK do not. That is a much cheaper unit that is much better at close combat. In fact Inquisition can use Henchmen to build a unit that is statistically better than the Strike Squad at virtually everything for the same price.
Deathcult Assassins also die to a stiff breeze when shot, and their only damage output comes in assaults. Your basic Grey Knight on the other hand competes decently in all phases, including the Psychic phase!
The vast majority of assault units that have high initiative ap3 or better attacks tend to be glass cannons that typically have little to no damage abilities outside of the Assault phase, or else they're even more expensive than your basic Grey Knight. (or even a combination of both!)
Bill1138 wrote: False. The Dreadknight has the standard 12" movement for Jump units, and 40k has other units that are more mobile, such as the Eldar that can turbo-boost and shoot. And the Dreadknight is among the least survivable Monstrous Creatures in the game, as I said above.
I'm not complaining about the Dreadknight's power or pricing. But it is objectively not over-powered in the scheme of 7th Edition 40k.
Eldar are supposed to be the super speedy army. Crying about how they can scoot and shoot better than any Imperial army is akin to Guard players crying about how their infantry die so much faster than Terminators...
While it's true the Dreadknight isn't outright over-powered, it's still definitely ahead of the curve in the Monstrous Creature category...
At it's basic stats, it's more survivable than a basic Greater Daemon. For a small upgrade cost, it can keep pace with 3 of the 4 Greaters, and leave the Fatman in its dust.
If I want my LoC for example to reach roughly the same levels of survivability, I need to spend for a pair of Greater Rewards.
If I want to gain an advantage over the Knight in the Psychic phase, then the Kipper & GUO need to spend for an additional Mastery Lv. (LoC is base Lv2)
If I want to be reliably certain of having an advantage over the Knight in assaults, then yet again, I need to spend pts on Rewards to boost the Greater's strength and/or number of attacks.
All told, a fully tooled out Dreadknight is actually the same cost or outright cheaper than a Greater Daemon at its base cost! Yet the Dreadknight is outright more survivable, is outright terrifying in the Shooting phase, and can beat-up the Greater in combat.
For a Greater Daemon to gain an advantage over the Dreadknight in combat, you're likely required to spend at least 250pts (basic un-upgraded Bloodthirster.) For my LoC on the other hand to have a decent chance of living through a Dreadknight encounter, it costs a whopping 305pts! (and he's still wary of Force being a likely counter...)
The Dreadknight is more than fine, and is far from being one of the game's crappiest MC's. (I'm sure Tyranids still hold that claim with about 50%+ of their beasties!)
Martel, what do you think of the most recent version of my suggestion? I'm interested in yours and any new opinions I get. If you don't like something what would you do instead?
The Suggestion: Promethium Reserve Tanks: as a new option for vehicles with flamer-type weapons that grants the weapons a 6” Torrent. The price could vary by vehicle based on effectiveness or be a per-weapon upgrade. This upgrade would be available to other codexes.
Grey Knight Chapter Tactics: These are the rules that apply across the Grey Knight Codex in the same way the Space Marine Chapter Tactics affect the chosen Chapter. If you think this is too much, compare them to the Iron Hands’ Chapter Tactics.
The Aegis
Prefered Enemy (Daemons)
Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit
Daemonology (Sanctic):
Replace the #4 power (Purge Soul) with a Blessing that improves the AP of shooting weapons by 1. This would not apply to psychic shooting attacks. Purgation Squads would have this power instead of Hammerhand)
4. Psychic Infusion …………………..Warp Charge 1
The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential.
Psychic Infusion is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the AP of weapons fired by the unit are improved by 1.
HQs I’d leave their options the same, but a few of their base prices are too high for what they’re capable of.
125pts- Brother-Captain:
150pts- Brother-Captain Stern:
100pts- Brotherhood Champion:
125pts- Castellan Crowe:
Troops:
Strike Squad:
Make Rites of Teleportation a special rule for Strike Squads instead of being a Detachment benefit for the Nemesis Strike force, but also have it reduce scatter to 1D6.
Elites
100pts – Dreadnought: Add a new piece of optional Wargear that grants the Dreadnought the option to use Skyfire each shooting phase. This new piece of Wargear could be available to other Codex's Dreadnoughts.
Paladins: At their current price, give them Sanctuary.
Heavy:
Purgation Squad: replace Hammerhand Psychic power with the Psychic Infusion power
Dreadknight: Add an Iron Halo as an optional upgrade. Such an expensive model should not have to hide in cover for a chance to survive, especially since it only has a 24" range on its weapons.
*Special Weapons: new (and hopefully improved suggestion)
The Grey Knights have 3 Special Weapons: the Incinerator, the Psilencer, and the Psycannon. As they currently stand the Psilencer and Psycannon are not good upgrades for PAGK. I would like to see that fixed.
Incinerator: Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1, Soulblaze
(No change)
Psilencer: 24”, S4, Ap-, Assault 6, Poisoned 3+, Force
(I still don't believe there was anything wrong with the effectiveness of the previous suggestion of Psilencer:24",S4,Ap-, Salvo8/12,Poisoned3+, beyond the unconventional profile. However this new suggestion is much more traditional, and retains a similar chance to kill Monstrous Creatures, but loses most of its anti-hoarde potential. The weapon needs to be able to statistically deal that Instant Death Wound in less than 2.0 Turns, because the chance of the weapon surviving within range to make more than two attempts are statistically almost null)
Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending, Lance
(This doubles its effectiveness against Soulgrinders, and helps against AV 14, but doesn’t do anything at all to its effectiveness against lighter armor. Rending needs to stay to give the weapon that fleeting chance of an Explodes. It also makes the weapon more viable against models with good armor saves.)
If the Grey Knights were to get a Suplement, I would like to see it be "Mordrak's Ghost Knights," which would include its own Formation.
The "Ghost Knight Formation" would include: Grandmaster Mordrak, and 2-5 units of Ghost Knights. The Formation would award the units within a 4+ Feel No Pain.
HQ: Grandmaster Mordrak: Pretty much the same, except he gets Eternal Warrior (A legion of the dead are his personal bodyguards, so it's justified, even as rare as it is meant to be). He still has the option to purchase a command unit of Ghost Knights as part of his unit.
Troop: Ghost Knights. If you use the Grey Knights Terminators as the base, add Aid Unlooked For, Fear, Fearless, and Unyielding Specters. Their appropriate price would be notably more expensive than the regular Terminators.
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, why do you think that the Psycannon should have lance? It doesn't really make sense other than to render all Daemon builds useless.
Grey Knights can't statistically handle Soulgrinders with any degree of effectiveness. Lance gives the Grey Knights a slightly better chance against them without changing the balance of the weapon in regards to other types of targets.
With Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to glance, 1/6 chance to pen
~0.296 Glancing Hits, and 0.296 Penetrating hits (unsaved)
Without Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to pen.
~0.296 Penetrating hits. (unsaved)
Half those values if the Psycannon was on a PAGK unit that moved.
Less than 30% chance of getting an unsaved Glance against a Soulgrinder is not going to make Chaos Daemons' lists obsolete. It's just a fair chance for the faction that is supposed to be the antithesis of Daemons to be able to hold their own against them.
Whiskey144 wrote: Oh, can somebody quote this? Want to make sure that anybody and everybody can see it.
Bill1138 wrote: Psilencer: 24”, S4, Ap-, Assault 6, Poisoned 3+, Force (Being as other Codexes rely on template weapons for anti-hoarde, the Psilencer doesn't really have to be anti-hoarde. This profile makes it good at killing Monstrous Creatures, though not as good as my previous suggestion, yet removes most of the anti-infantry ability it had. It is also much closer to a traditional weapon profile than my previous suggestion.)
Well this is out of left field. Still, I dislike it quite a bit. It's not so horrendously broken as Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison 3+, but it's not great either. I do admit that I like Assault 6, as it allows Psilencers to contribute to the midrange shooting that GKs generally excel at.
Poison 3+ is still over the top when combined with Force; if you want both then a better solution is to split the profile to either Force or Poison... it should also probably be Poison 4+, as otherwise this is 99% better Splinter Cannon and would overshadow the DE as the poison masters of the game.
As an example, a single Psilencer with 3+ Poison, and 6 shots, will inflict ~2.7 wounds on a MC. Against 3+ armor, this becomes ~0.89 unsaved wounds- so you've got really good chances to blap a MC. This is pretty over the top, especially when a moderately tooled up Strike Squad can kill any T6/3+ MCin one round of combat.
Here's the math:
Spoiler:
Strike Squad, 10 man, 10 Halberds, Charging:
against a WS4 MC: 21 attacks, 10.5 hits, ~3.5 unsaved wounds (Halberds provide +1S and AP3); a typical T6/3+ MC has only 4 Wounds- you don't even need Force to kill one given that in practice it'll round up to 4 wounds!
If you really want to go in for overkill, you could also activate Hammerhand, for 5 Unsaved Wounds- combined with Force, you can probably kill an entire brood of Carnifexes in a single round of combat!
WS4 MC, 10-man Strike Squad, w/ all Falchions, Charging, with Hammerhand:
31 attacks, ~16 hits, ~5.33 unsaved wounds (Falchions provide +1 Attack and AP3, Hammerhand provides +1 Str). Once again, you can just use Falchions+Hammerhand and kill any T6/3+ MC in the game in a single round; if they have a 5++, then you inflict ~3.55 unsaved wounds- still very good chances to kill a T6/3+/5++ MC in a single round.
And keep in mind that that's going to hold true against WS4-WS8 MCs; it takes an insane WS9 before the Strikes can only hit on 5+. Oh, and against WS3 (IE, many Tyranid T6/3+ MCs)? Halberds will inflict ~4.67 unsaved wounds (~7 w/ Hammerhand), while Falchions will get ~6.89 unsaved wounds when combined with Hammerhand. Season with Force, and you can literally kill any T6/3+ MC in a single round of combat- more likely, you'll kill multiple T6/3+ MCs in just one round of combat.
Also, for those who are curious as to how brokenly powerful Salvo 8/12 S5 Poison 3+ is... take a look:
Spoiler:
I don't have my codex stuff with me right now, but let's just think about how much firepower you can get:
MSU Purifiers x3, w/ 2 Psilencers You'll get 72 S5 Poison 3+ shots at 36"; against T3 infantry you can pump out 40 (!) wounds per turn; against:
6+ Save: ~33.3 unsaved wounds
5+ Save: ~26.7 unsaved wounds (IE, you just mostly wiped out a typical IG Infantry blob of 30 dudes)
4+ Save: ~20 unsaved wounds (IE, you still mostly wipe out a typical IG Infantry blob, even if they're in 4+ cover)
3+ Save: ~13.3 unsaved wounds (there goes that Battle Sister blob)
Alternately, you can deal up to ~32 wounds against anything T5 or better; against a typical:
3+ Armor MC: ~10.7 unsaved wounds (nearly an entire Carnifex Brood gone!)
2+ Armor MC: ~5.34 unsaved wounds; if the MC has 5+ FNP then that becomes ~3.56 unsaved wounds- so you can nearly one-round a Riptide. Riptides are brokenly powerful too, but breaking Psilencers into this level of power is not the answer.
Oh, and for comparison, 30 Sternguard can only put out 30 2+ Poison shots at 12-24", and 60 at 0-12". They also cost around 3 times as much as MSU Purifiers, and can't use Rhinos as a pseudo-ablative armor. MSU Trueborn with Splinter Cannons and dual Splinter Cannon Venoms can dump 36 poison shots per squad- so 108 per turn for three squads- and of the total 108, 36 are twin-linked. Except that they're 4+ poison.
An approximate number of wounds inflicted before saves for MSU Splinterborn in Dual Splinter Venoms would be: 24 wounds from Splinterborn, 16 wounds from Venoms; total of 40 wounds. Which sounds comparable, until you realize that:
-Trueborn are T3/5+ infantry, in 4-man MSU squads, mounted in cardboard bawkse Venoms (10/10/10 2HPs, open-topped)
-It takes ~33% more shots for DE to equal the wound output of 6 Salvo 8/12 S5/Poison 3+ Psilencers
-Splinter weapons are S:X, which means they cannot harm AV at all
-For a moderate cost increase, the MSU Purifiers can mount in Rhinos and still fire their important weapons from the roof hatch, giving them an ablative AV11/11/10 3HP vehicle
-Purifiers are also ML2, so 3 MSU squads contributes 6 WC.
-Purifiers also know Cleansing Flame, probably the best Sanctic power.
So, yeah. Salvo 8/12, S5, Poison 3+ Psilencers? Brokenly powerful.
Bill1138 wrote: Psycannon: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending, Lance (This doubles its effectiveness against Soulgrinders, and helps against AV 14, but doesn’t do anything at all to its effectiveness against lighter armor.
*For the sake of Fluff explanations, “Poisoned” and “Lance” would probably be given new overly flowery or pseudo-Latin names and descriptions to make them more in line with the Imperium’s lore, but would still be the exact same rules.
I don't really see the point of both Lance and Rending; it's got enough weight of fire that S7+Lance is perfectly functional for glancing things to death. Also, it doesn't need anything other than the "Lance" rule. There's no need for the weapon's rules to use something Imperial-ized for the rule. Make up whatever description you want, but leave it simple and clean as Lance rather than some other thing.
It's not over the top...a reasonably tooled strike squad costs 300+ points dude...
It's over the top for one weapon to have that kind of capability- it's very nearly a guaranteed kill if you activate Force.
Which means you can remove a lot of MCs in a single round of shooting. What armies have lots of MCs?
Mostly Tyranids and Daemons. And those results are against a T6/3+ armor MC- the average for 'Nids. Against T6/5++, the common standard for Daemons, it's a lot worse and flat-out broken.
Psilencers having Poison isn't actually broken, even if it doesn't make much sense fluffwise. Psilencers having both Poison and Force on the same profile is actually quite broken- there does not exist any weapon in the game that can one-shot without any risk of reprisal.
I'd also like to point out that the Strikes were used as a benchmark of "ultramurderlicious combat". Tooled up Strikes are rather expensive, yes. 300+ points, not so much; you're looking at something closer to 270-290, realistically.
Whiskey144 wrote: It's over the top for one weapon to have that kind of capability- it's very nearly a guaranteed kill if you activate Force.
Which means you can remove a lot of MCs in a single round of shooting. What armies have lots of MCs?
Mostly Tyranids and Daemons. And those results are against a T6/3+ armor MC- the average for 'Nids. Against T6/5++, the common standard for Daemons, it's a lot worse and flat-out broken.
Psilencers having Poison isn't actually broken, even if it doesn't make much sense fluffwise. Psilencers having both Poison and Force on the same profile is actually quite broken- there does not exist any weapon in the game that can one-shot without any risk of reprisal.
I'd also like to point out that the Strikes were used as a benchmark of "ultramurderlicious combat". Tooled up Strikes are rather expensive, yes. 300+ points, not so much; you're looking at something closer to 270-290, realistically.
In a rhino with a hammer and 2 psycannons its 315 points I think. With Psilencers I think it would be 305. I was including the rhino into the cost.
I don't see anything wrong with that profile for the psycannon. S7 is not that amazing against AV 12, and the GK can't field the obscene number of shots of the Xeno lists.
The reworked silencer is not that broken, either. I'd like to see more force in the game actually as a hard counter to overpowered MCs. MCs are currently so much better than vehicles it's crazy.
I think the difference in my view and some other players is that I expect to take heavy casualties every game. Eldar and Tau players want to set up their units and win with only a few scratches on their paint. At least, that's the vibe I get from most Eldar/Tau players I have to play. Taking casualties is for meq lists. I don't bring anything to a match that I can't afford to lose, so the force/poison thing doesn't bother me at all. It's something that MCs have to pay attention to, though, unlike most of the weapon available to my BA.
Whiskey, How long do you normally leave your daemonic Monstrous Creatures on the ground (not flying) within 24" of a Grey Knight unit that you know has a Psilencer, without either getting into close combat or moving out of there? If you know he has a Psilencer, are you really going to waste your Denial Warp Dice on other powers besides that Force? And if I pool enough Dice to get enough successes that you can't block it, Didn't I just sacrifice my ability to cast most of my other Psychic powers?
Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to. And the Psilencer needs to inflict an unsaved Wound more than 50% of the time because there typically isn't a third try if if the other player's strategy is worth anything at all.
That is what Poison and Force do. They make the weapon capable of doing its job.
If the devilfish gets reworked into something useful, the GK are going to struggle against Tau again. Just something to think about. I still think that Tau players could deploy in a more savvy manner against drop lists/shunt lists, but with a good transport, alpha strikes get neutered.
Martel732 wrote: If the devilfish gets reworked into something useful, the GK are going to struggle against Tau again. Just something to think about. I still think that Tau players could deploy in a more savvy manner against drop lists/shunt lists, but with a good transport, alpha strikes get neutered.
transports ruin alpha strikes - have to waste firepower to kill a junk unit first. This is a good strategy. Abusing ruins cover by going to ground is not a good strategy - I expect you do do it. Most my weapons have ignore cover as a result. Get roasted by shunt torrent .
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, why do you think that the Psycannon should have lance? It doesn't really make sense other than to render all Daemon builds useless.
Grey Knights can't statistically handle Soulgrinders with any degree of effectiveness. Lance gives the Grey Knights a slightly better chance against them without changing the balance of the weapon in regards to other types of targets.
With Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to glance, 1/6 chance to pen
~0.296 Glancing Hits, and 0.296 Penetrating hits (unsaved)
Without Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to pen.
~0.296 Penetrating hits. (unsaved)
Half those values if the Psycannon was on a PAGK unit that moved.
Less than 30% chance of getting an unsaved Glance against a Soulgrinder is not going to make Chaos Daemons' lists obsolete. It's just a fair chance for the faction that is supposed to be the antithesis of Daemons to be able to hold their own against them.
Now let's reverse it:
What do Daemons have that can hurt Land Raiders?
Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."
Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.
Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).
This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, why do you think that the Psycannon should have lance? It doesn't really make sense other than to render all Daemon builds useless.
Grey Knights can't statistically handle Soulgrinders with any degree of effectiveness. Lance gives the Grey Knights a slightly better chance against them without changing the balance of the weapon in regards to other types of targets.
With Lance: 4 shots stationary 2/3 chance to hit 1/6 chance to glance, 1/6 chance to pen ~0.296 Glancing Hits, and 0.296 Penetrating hits (unsaved)
Without Lance: 4 shots stationary 2/3 chance to hit 1/6 chance to pen. ~0.296 Penetrating hits. (unsaved)
Half those values if the Psycannon was on a PAGK unit that moved.
Less than 30% chance of getting an unsaved Glance against a Soulgrinder is not going to make Chaos Daemons' lists obsolete. It's just a fair chance for the faction that is supposed to be the antithesis of Daemons to be able to hold their own against them.
Now let's reverse it:
What do Daemons have that can hurt Land Raiders?
Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."
Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.
Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).
This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).
I'm sorry, but what? Daemons have the Strength-D weapon toting Bloodthirster for cracking AV14. They also have screamers from what I remember, so they definitely have tools to open up land raiders, which generally aren't the main issue for daemons lists anyways.
Also I think you're over emphasizing on the use of multi-wound units in armies. The non-MC vulnerable to them (i.e. Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Ogryns) were never great at soaking firepower and often more vulnerable to high S blast templates than force so it really doesn't change the meta for them given how little they were deployed to begin with. The vast majority of loyalist SM forces don't even have a lot of multi-wound models for Force to be useful against them, short of Centurions. Also I think Force is a very viable answer to MC-spam in a lot of lists and that its a counter that I find needs to be more prevalent given how weak vehicles are in comparison to them.
Martel732 wrote: If the devilfish gets reworked into something useful, the GK are going to struggle against Tau again. Just something to think about. I still think that Tau players could deploy in a more savvy manner against drop lists/shunt lists, but with a good transport, alpha strikes get neutered.
transports ruin alpha strikes - have to waste firepower to kill a junk unit first. This is a good strategy. Abusing ruins cover by going to ground is not a good strategy - I expect you do do it. Most my weapons have ignore cover as a result. Get roasted by shunt torrent .
Also don't forget that the vehicle chart makes HP scrubbing the dominant method for killing vehicles, and this consumes a great number of shots in general. For non-Tau/Eldar, this is an issue.
SGTPozy wrote: Bill, why do you think that the Psycannon should have lance? It doesn't really make sense other than to render all Daemon builds useless.
Grey Knights can't statistically handle Soulgrinders with any degree of effectiveness. Lance gives the Grey Knights a slightly better chance against them without changing the balance of the weapon in regards to other types of targets.
With Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to glance, 1/6 chance to pen
~0.296 Glancing Hits, and 0.296 Penetrating hits (unsaved)
Without Lance: 4 shots stationary
2/3 chance to hit
1/6 chance to pen.
~0.296 Penetrating hits. (unsaved)
Half those values if the Psycannon was on a PAGK unit that moved.
Less than 30% chance of getting an unsaved Glance against a Soulgrinder is not going to make Chaos Daemons' lists obsolete. It's just a fair chance for the faction that is supposed to be the antithesis of Daemons to be able to hold their own against them.
Now let's reverse it:
What do Daemons have that can hurt Land Raiders?
Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."
Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.
Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).
This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).
I'm sorry, but what? Daemons have the Strength-D weapon toting Bloodthirster for cracking AV14. They also have screamers from what I remember, so they definitely have tools to open up land raiders, which generally aren't the main issue for daemons lists anyways.
Also I think you're over emphasizing on the use of multi-wound units in armies. The non-MC vulnerable to them (i.e. Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Ogryns) were never great at soaking firepower and often more vulnerable to high S blast templates than force so it really doesn't change the meta for them given how little they were deployed to begin with. The vast majority of loyalist SM forces don't even have a lot of multi-wound models for Force to be useful against them, short of Centurions. Also I think Force is a very viable answer to MC-spam in a lot of lists and that its a counter that I find needs to be more prevalent given how weak vehicles are in comparison to them.
I assumed that we were ignoring close combat hence why GKs 'need' a ranged anti-tank option even though they have S6 across the board and S10 Dreadknights.
So you're okay with poison 3+ AND force then? It would probably be the final push to make those units never seen in 40k again.
I agree that force is a good counter to MCs, but NOT when the force gun also wounds on a 3+.
MCs are vulnerable to poison/sniper and force but there shouldn't be a gun that has both; that's too OP.
SGTPozy wrote: I assumed that we were ignoring close combat hence why GKs 'need' a ranged anti-tank option even though they have S6 across the board and S10 Dreadknights.
So you're okay with poison 3+ AND force then? It would probably be the final push to make those units never seen in 40k again.
I agree that force is a good counter to MCs, but NOT when the force gun also wounds on a 3+.
MCs are vulnerable to poison/sniper and force but there shouldn't be a gun that has both; that's too OP.
Use your common sense. Monstrous Creatures don't need to be invincible to be worth taking. Look at the Dreadknight. Half the time they don't live until turn 3, but they are still the best unit in the Grey Knight Codex. Force and Poison together are not a bad or over-powered combination. It is a balancing factor against Monstrous Creatures being too powerful. Look at the math, it is far from a certainty of killing the Monstrous Creatures. It's just good enough odds to make the weapon worth taking.
If MCs didn't have armor saves, it would be over powered. But they do. Some of them having fething 2+ armor. There needs to be a real counter somewhere other than more plasma, more grav. This is actually a counter that DOESN'T hose meqs in the process. But I guess we can't have that.
Martel732 wrote: If MCs didn't have armor saves, it would be over powered. But they do. Some of them having fething 2+ armor. There needs to be a real counter somewhere other than more plasma, more grav. This is actually a counter that DOESN'T hose meqs in the process. But I guess we can't have that.
The vast majority of multi-wound stuff in the daemons codex, including most MC's doesn't have an armour save... just saying.
Besides, the answer to the "oh noes, Riptides & Wraithknights are too OP!" isn't to make the Psilencer a single turn auto-counter to them, as it then becomes beyond broken against everything below those MC's.
Instead, we simply need to reign in the bare handful of problem MC's such as the Riptide/Wraithknight and to a lesser extent, Dreadknights, super dakka Flyrants and the S8/ap2 LoC.
Martel732 wrote: If MCs didn't have armor saves, it would be over powered. But they do. Some of them having fething 2+ armor. There needs to be a real counter somewhere other than more plasma, more grav. This is actually a counter that DOESN'T hose meqs in the process. But I guess we can't have that.
The vast majority of multi-wound stuff in the daemons codex, including most MC's doesn't have an armour save... just saying.
Besides, the answer to the "oh noes, Riptides & Wraithknights are too OP!" isn't to make the Psilencer a single turn auto-counter to them, as it then becomes beyond broken against everything below those MC's.
Instead, we simply need to reign in the bare handful of problem MC's such as the Riptide/Wraithknight and to a lesser extent, Dreadknights, super dakka Flyrants and the S8/ap2 LoC.
Wraithknights aren't even a problem. Their armor sucks.
Additionally, the psilencer doesn't mean a thing to W1 models. There should be some advantage somewhere to W1 models. Because as it stands, MCs have all the advantages and no disadvantages.
Sorry if I don't have much concern for daemons and their 2++ rerollable insanity.
Xenomancers wrote: In a rhino with a hammer and 2 psycannons its 315 points I think. With Psilencers I think it would be 305. I was including the rhino into the cost.
*shrugs* Guess we just threw in different upgrades then.
In any case, the Strike Squad vs MC was really just to demonstrate that the GKs can pretty easily kill any MC of T6/3+ or even T6/5++ in a single round of combat, with pretty much any unit that they have. Strikes aren't the best option; they pretty much require Hammerhand+Falchions in order to pull it off and also not be bogged down against weaker enemies.
Purifiers or GKTs with a mix of Halberds+Hammers would be a better choice, likely. Interceptors probably have better things to do, and also can't charge out of a shunt so are better off focusing on guns.
Martel732 wrote: I don't see anything wrong with that profile for the psycannon. S7 is not that amazing against AV 12, and the GK can't field the obscene number of shots of the Xeno lists.
The reworked silencer is not that broken, either. I'd like to see more force in the game actually as a hard counter to overpowered MCs. MCs are currently so much better than vehicles it's crazy.
I think the difference in my view and some other players is that I expect to take heavy casualties every game. Eldar and Tau players want to set up their units and win with only a few scratches on their paint. At least, that's the vibe I get from most Eldar/Tau players I have to play. Taking casualties is for meq lists. I don't bring anything to a match that I can't afford to lose, so the force/poison thing doesn't bother me at all. It's something that MCs have to pay attention to, though, unlike most of the weapon available to my BA.
Ultimately I believe that there are better ways to fix the Psycannon that are more logically consistent. Giving it a Haywire shot, for example; it's a single Haywire shot, which doesn't sound that amazing... until you realize that DE Haywire is also a single shot and is absolutely amazing anyways (for a few reasons, which I might elaborate later).
Bill1138 wrote: Whiskey, How long do you normally leave your daemonic Monstrous Creatures on the ground (not flying) within 24" of a Grey Knight unit that you know has a Psilencer, without either getting into close combat or moving out of there? If you know he has a Psilencer, are you really going to waste your Denial Warp Dice on other powers besides that Force? And if I pool enough Dice to get enough successes that you can't block it, Didn't I just sacrifice my ability to cast most of my other Psychic powers?
Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to. And the Psilencer needs to inflict an unsaved Wound more than 50% of the time because there typically isn't a third try if if the other player's strategy is worth anything at all.
That is what Poison and Force do. They make the weapon capable of doing its job.
As far as Daemon MCs, flying, and my use thereof- I normally leave them to the internet, as I do not play Daemons nor do I have much interest in playing that army.
Also, anti-MC duty is not the job of the Psilencer at present; anti-multi-wound infantry is the job. This job isn't a bad one, but it's also a very limited one. That's really the problem that the Psilencer has: it can't fire on the move in any functional manner, and it has a single thing that it's passably good at killing.
Also, why do the GKs get to have a one-gun solution to the problem? As an example, "downgrading" to Poison 4+, means you inflict ~0.67 unsaved wounds to a T6/3+ MC. In order to "guarantee" a kill, you'll need two Psilencers. Why is that bad?
Also, why do all Daemon MCs automatically fly? While I don't know for sure, I'm pretty sure that there's a few Daemon MCs that can't fly. Why should we gak all over them in our quest to make Psilencers better?
Ultimately, this is really a risk-reward and cost-benefit issue. As an example, the new Skitarii Vanguard can take a 10-man squad and 3 Plasma Calivers, and cost ~190 points. They reliably kill a Dreadknight in a single round of shooting (~4.6 unsaved wounds). However, in order to do so, they must use one of one-use only Doctrina Imperatives to gain +3BS, which also imposes a -2WS penalty. Their Plasma Calivers cost 30 points each, and all have Gets Hot.
BS7 can mitigate Gets Hot on 9 shots quite well... for the turn that they have BS7. The Vanguards also have to get within 18"- which is not only the range of the Plasma Caliver, but also of their basic Radium Carbines (both of which are necessary to guarantee a DK kill). Vanguard are also T3/4+/6+++; while a 10-man squad has 11 wounds (the squad lead has 2W), at T3/4+/6+++, they're incredibly easy to remove. Skitarii also have no native access to transports... which means that a DK could kite Vanguards for an entire game.
What you are proposing is giving the ability to have a 140 point anti-MC "torpedo" that can shunt 30", has 12" Jump Infantry movement, and can reliably kill a MCevery single turn. Not only that, but a typical MC will cost more than the squad- while Vanguard have more aggregate wounds, they're not nearly as mobile and have to be within 18" as opposed to 24"- oh, and the Vanguard's Plasma Calivers (which do most of the work of killing high-T enemies) also have Gets Hot, and cost 30 points per gun (IE, 2-3x as much as a Psilencer), and a single BS4 volley from Plasma Calivers has a quite high chance to kill one of the Plasma guys.
So unless you're suddenly going to say "Psilencers can have Gets Hot", then I would contend that Poison 3+ and Force is actually pretty broken.
Because again, there's nothing that prevents you from taking multiple Psilencers- every other army has to take multiple weapons for optimal results, and many are saddled with guns that can kill the wielder, as well as generally having shorter "optimal" weapon ranges (IE, 12" for Rapid Fire Plasma, 18" for Plasma Calivers, 12" for anti-MC Melta).
Nothing. Just like how you don't have anything to hurt the Soul Grinder.
This comparison is flawed because Land Raiders are overpriced by a good chunk. Soul Grinders, OTOH, are pretty boss.
SGTPozy wrote: "Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."
Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.
Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).
This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).
Multi-wound models are already generally shat on by the preponderance of high strength blasts that can be thrown around (*cough* IA *cough*). Psilencers getting improved to a usable state isn't going to change that.
Also, Imperial "ally shenanigans" isn't particularly relevant- what do you want more, the bitchin' firepower against everything and point-affordability of Skitarii, or the high-expense anti-MC ability of GKs?
If you answered "GKs" then you answered wrong.
SGTPozy wrote: I assumed that we were ignoring close combat hence why GKs 'need' a ranged anti-tank option even though they have S6 across the board and S10 Dreadknights.
So you're okay with poison 3+ AND force then? It would probably be the final push to make those units never seen in 40k again.
I agree that force is a good counter to MCs, but NOT when the force gun also wounds on a 3+.
MCs are vulnerable to poison/sniper and force but there shouldn't be a gun that has both; that's too OP.
To be fair, a lot of the problem comes from 2+ armor (or T8) MCs that can sit back at a distance that is far out of range of 90% of the weapons that can actually hurt them...
In any case, IMO a "ranged" anti-vehicle option for GKs would be something that is optimized around the 24" midrange shooting that the rest of the GK army is also designed around.
Experiment 626 wrote: The vast majority of multi-wound stuff in the daemons codex, including most MC's doesn't have an armour save... just saying.
Besides, the answer to the "oh noes, Riptides & Wraithknights are too OP!" isn't to make the Psilencer a single turn auto-counter to them, as it then becomes beyond broken against everything below those MC's. Instead, we simply need to reign in the bare handful of problem MC's such as the Riptide/Wraithknight and to a lesser extent, Dreadknights, super dakka Flyrants and the S8/ap2 LoC.
Dreadknights aren't too much of a problem for a good number of armies, as the majority of AP2/AP1 weapons are short ranged, typically 24" or less. Which is exactly where a DK wants to be, too. Additionally, many armies which lack AP2/AP1 shooting instead have access to reasonably costed melee units that can hold a Dreadknight in combat for a few turns. Sometimes you don't need to actually kill things if you can just tarpit it for the rest of the game.
Martel732 wrote: Wraithknights aren't even a problem. Their armor sucks.
Additionally, the psilencer doesn't mean a thing to W1 models. There should be some advantage somewhere to W1 models. Because as it stands, MCs have all the advantages and no disadvantages.
Sorry if I don't have much concern for daemons and their 2++ rerollable insanity.
WKs can be problematic due to the fact that they're Toughness 8- a lot of things which are pretty scary to the typical T6/3+ MC aren't nearly as problematic for a WK. Consider the humble Krak Missile; S8 and AP3. Against a T6/3+ MC, you'll need ~4.8 hits from a Krak Missile to kill it; using a BS4 shooter, you'll need to fire ~7.2 shots. Call it 8 MLs, and you can kill a MC in one round (typical MC is 4 Wounds).
Against a WK... you'll need 18 MLs to kill it in one round, as it's T8 (S8 vs T8 is 4+/50% wound rate), assuming that you've got BS4 shooters- if you're saddled with BS3 shooters, you'll need 24 MLs. WKs being T8/6 Wounds makes them incredibly durable. Season with Jump MC status natively, and the fact that their best options are 36" range guns... and they quickly become an issue.
In any case, I would like to submit, again, the following Psycannon change:
Here be the new Psycannon- losing a shot and S7, in favor of 12" of extra range, AP3, and Psi-Shock. Oh, and a 24" Haywire bullet for glancing down AV of any and every flavor. Psycannons are now back in business as a versatile weapon platform viable for PAGKs and GKTs alike. Having up to 3 S6/AP3 shots at 36" is also quite nice- not only is it pretty dangerous to MCs (a Purifier or Purgation squad that sits still can kill a T6/3+ MC in a single turn, dealing exactly 4 Wounds), but MEQ in 5+ cover lose ~4.5 members every turn. Voila, passable for killing MCs, and pretty good at killing MEQ. Oh, and you can strip 4HPs per turn off of AV10, ~2.67 HPs off AV11, and ~1.34 HPs from AV12.
Or you can use the Haywire profile and strip ~2.22 HPs per turn from any AV value in the game. As in, there is no vehicle that will ever give you trouble ever again.
Psilencer
Spoiler:
24" Assault 6 S4 AP- Shred, Force 24" Assault 1 SX AP2 Fleshbane, Force
You want anti-multi-wound anything? You got it. Initial profile of S4/Shred/Force means reliable wounding against all things T3-T5, making it more viable without activating Force. The secondary profile is a single Fleshbane+Force+AP2 shot... which at first seems waaay over the top however...
It's one shot. In order to reliably guarantee a MC kill, you need two Psilencers. So for Strikes+GKTs and perhaps most importantly, Interceptors, you need 10-man squads. Moreover, trying to go MSU GKTs/Strikes with 5-man+Psilencer means that you either cannot guarantee a kill (and against T6/5++, 2 Psilencers with the above Fleshbane/Force single-shot profile, it's ~0.74 unsaved wounds- so not a guaranteed kill), or you need to "waste" multiple squads' shooting to get that guaranteed kill.
But having a buttload of shots with both Force and Poison 3+... yeah, not so cool. A single Fleshbane/Force shot isn't as bad. If necessary, it could be dropped to Poison 4+, but that means that you need 4 Psilencers to get a guaranteed kill; given that only Purifier and Purgation squads can really bring 4 Psilencers to the field, I'm inclined to go with Fleshbane; it still requires 2 weapons to guarantee a kill (and that also requires that no invulnerable save be taken), and the standard Strike/GKT/Interceptor squads are all limited at a maximum of two special weapons.
It brings a situation similar to the above mentioned Skitarii Vanguard- the Vanguard require three Plasma Calivers (their entire weapon allowance, as well as needing a 10-man squad), plus the rest of the squad's Radium Carbines, in order to guarantee a kill against T6/2+/5++ targets- like DKs or Riptides w/o Nova'd shields or FNP. For GKs to require a squad to take their full special weapon allowance- typically also requiring a full 10-man squad, I do not consider to be problematic, particularly when you consider that 2x Psilencers is much more flexible than 3x Plasma Calivers- oh, and the Psilencers can't kill your own dudes via Gets Hot.
Martel732 wrote: If MCs didn't have armor saves, it would be over powered. But they do. Some of them having fething 2+ armor. There needs to be a real counter somewhere other than more plasma, more grav. This is actually a counter that DOESN'T hose meqs in the process. But I guess we can't have that.
The vast majority of multi-wound stuff in the daemons codex, including most MC's doesn't have an armour save... just saying.
Besides, the answer to the "oh noes, Riptides & Wraithknights are too OP!" isn't to make the Psilencer a single turn auto-counter to them, as it then becomes beyond broken against everything below those MC's.
Instead, we simply need to reign in the bare handful of problem MC's such as the Riptide/Wraithknight and to a lesser extent, Dreadknights, super dakka Flyrants and the S8/ap2 LoC.
Wraithknights aren't even a problem. Their armor sucks.
Additionally, the psilencer doesn't mean a thing to W1 models. There should be some advantage somewhere to W1 models. Because as it stands, MCs have all the advantages and no disadvantages.
Sorry if I don't have much concern for daemons and their 2++ rerollable insanity.
1. With Force activated, the Psilencer is capable of denying any FnP rolls to single wound models, so yes, it does have some functionality against certain W1 models due to the nature of instant death attacks.
And MC's have plenty of disadvantages... besides Force, anything with Poisoned attacks is brutal, as are any kind of S6-7 weapons with decent rate of fire. Cover is harder to claim. Most MC's are good and slow allowing for them to be tarpitted. In general MC's tend to cost near on 200pts, while some cost almost 300pts or more, yet all of them except for Wraith constructs can be one-shot'ed by a 10pts upgrade.
FMC's got massively nerfed in 7th.
MC's are good sure, but they have plenty of counters out there.
2. You have to purposefully set out to be a giant donkeycave to give a Daemon unit a re-rollable 2++, as well as pay the "Fateweaver Tax" to really ensure it doesn't blow up in your face... and Imperials can have re-rolled 2++ saves of their own in combats thanks to IG Priests, so hardly an "only Daemons" problem.
Whenever someone says "the game already has something that does that", invariably, they are always referring to something the Grey Knights don't have access to.
That fact (that thing that the Grey Knights don't have access to) should be a red flag to people that something is lacking.
Monstrous Creatures can be easily dealt with if an army has Snipers or Poison... but guess what...The Grey Knights don't have access to either of those. In the absense of any weapon capable of reliably harming high toughness units, the Grey Knights need one, and the Psilencer is sitting perfectly to fill that role, if it were just able to wound the higher Toughness models, which my proposal does.
To compare the effectiveness of each, I'll compare each of them to a Daemonprince (T5,3+,5++)
(current stationary) Psilencer: 24",S4,AP-,Heavy 6, Force
(6)(2/3)(1/3)(1/3) = 0.44 unsaved Wounds before chance of Force being calculated in.
(current mobile) Psilencer: 24",S4,AP-,Heavy 6, Force
(6)(1/6)(1/3)(1/3) = 0.11 unsaved Wounds before chance of Force being calculated in.
*Note that just about everyone who has fielded one is agreed that the current Psilencer is less than worthless.
(My proposal) Psilencer: 24",S4, AP-,Assault 6,Poisoned 3+, Force
(6)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = 0.89 unsaved Wounds before chance of Force being calculated in.
Results: against T5, 3+, 5++ 0.11, current mobile profile, cannot harm T8
0.44, current stationary profile, cannot harm T8
0.89, my proposed profile, same chance to harm T8
What stands out? My proposition uses a single profile that works evenly well across all toughnesses, allowing for greater survivability to units with better saves. Note that this weapon is taking the same slot that could have been used for an Incinerator or a Psycannon, and it is unable to harm AV >10, and is unlikely to deal more than a single unsaved Wound on most units. Grey Knights being such a small army means they can't afford for their weapons have the same lack of effectiveness that other armies can compensate for by bringing more units.
For psilencers we could make it like grave weapons.
instead of poison wounds on a roll= to the armor or invulnerable choice, whichever is the best. With a minimum of 5+.
So a demon with a 5++ would only be wounded on a 5+ but a dreadknight/ riptide would be wounded on a 2+.
Solves the high armor without destroying all demons.
(just a suggestion since it doesn't have ap in it they will still get a save but it would be more proportionate to the MC)
SGTPozy wrote: "Force is useless if it the Weapon can't Wound when it needs to."
Multi-wound models are useless when they lose all winds after a single wound.
Which is worse for the game? Force to be useless (which only affects psykers) or multi-wound models (which affects every army).
This is why your suggestion is way too powerful; it invalidates too much (and due to IoM ally shenanigan half of the armies would have them).
Multi-wound models are already generally shat on by the preponderance of high strength blasts that can be thrown around (*cough* IA *cough*). Psilencers getting improved to a usable state isn't going to change that.
Also, Imperial "ally shenanigans" isn't particularly relevant- what do you want more, the bitchin' firepower against everything and point-affordability of Skitarii, or the high-expense anti-MC ability of GKs?
If you answered "GKs" then you answered wrong.
Yes but it would be yet another gun that utterly destroy them an they don't need any more anti-them guns.
Also, no Tau player defends the IA but some GK players (not naming anyone) seems to want an equally OP gun because reasons.
I was merely stating that half of the armies would have access to them (just like Imperial Knights) which makes it worse.
If we went back to the 6th ed ally matrix (which made more sense) then it wouldn't be a problem as only one army would have access to it.
Anyway, I'd rather have a Dreadknight than any of the Skitarii units.
SGTPozy wrote: I assumed that we were ignoring close combat hence why GKs 'need' a ranged anti-tank option even though they have S6 across the board and S10 Dreadknights.
So you're okay with poison 3+ AND force then? It would probably be the final push to make those units never seen in 40k again.
I agree that force is a good counter to MCs, but NOT when the force gun also wounds on a 3+.
MCs are vulnerable to poison/sniper and force but there shouldn't be a gun that has both; that's too OP.
To be fair, a lot of the problem comes from 2+ armor (or T8) MCs that can sit back at a distance that is far out of range of 90% of the weapons that can actually hurt them...
In any case, IMO a "ranged" anti-vehicle option for GKs would be something that is optimized around the 24" midrange shooting that the rest of the GK army is also designed around.
What size table do you play on as I can guarantee that the 'always out of range' argument is a complete and utter myth.
A ranged anti-vehicle option doesn't really suit the theme of the army (as fluff-wise they should be an ally 'dex).
However a short range melta power would suit them, something like:
8" S8 Ap1 WC2 melta
SGTPozy wrote: Yes but it would be yet another gun that utterly destroy them an they don't need any more anti-them guns.
...I do not think you quite understand that the Psilencer gibbing multi-wound models isn't a particularly bad thing- Psilencers are restricted to a single army, require LoS, and are currently limited to being a stationary 24" range weapon. Psilencers make GKs a matchup that multi-wound infantry lose a lot of models to... but it's not like Psilencers are blapping massive units of Nobs off the table.
Here, have some maths:
Spoiler:
current Psilencer, 6 shots, BS4 shooter; 4 hits @ S4/Force, no AP;
For 2 Psilencers firing, then you can generally double the results above and be accurate. Quadruple them for the incredibly edge case of a full Purgation/Purifier Squad with all Psilencers (as that is currently a terrible way to equip those squads).
If, for example, you make it Assault 6, and add Poison 4+, then it can scale up against T5+; literally you can take the T4 block of results and apply it to T5+ if the Psilencer suddenly had Poison 4+. Which isn't a terrible addition either; against 3+ save MCs, you'll need a minimum of two Psilencers to guarantee a kill. However... I dislike Poison 4+, because it ends up shafting the Daemon MCs that have to rely on a 5++, and especially the ones that can't fly (I assume that there's a few that can't, at least).
Let's consider first the following profile: Psilencer 24" Assault 6 S4 AP- Force, Shred
Compared to now, we exchange Heavy for Assault, to allow full fire-on-the-move functionality, while also adding Shred for more reliable wounding. Have some more math:
T6: 5+ Save: ~0.82 unsaved wounds, probably remove 1 model 3+ Save: ~0.41 unsaved wounds, maybe remove 1 model
So just by adding Shred the Psilencer becomes significantly more capable- it reliably removes moderate-to-mediocre save infantry units, and is even passably capable of hurting better save and even some particularly high-T targets. Not only that, but Shred also improves the ability of the weapon against T3/T4 single-wound infantry models.
What if we swap Shred for S5? Psilencer 24" Assault 6 S5 AP- Force
T6: 5+ Save: ~0.89 unsaved wounds, ~1 model removed 3+ Save: ~0.44 unsaved wounds, probably does nothing; needs multiple shooters
How interesting, wouldn't you say? S5+Force isn't that big a deal- in fact, S4+Shred is superior against everything except T6! S5 also allows Psilencers to provide some glancing fire to AV10; a single Psilencer with S5 and Assault 6 will remove ~1.33 HPs per turn from AV10, and ~0.67 HPs against AV11.
Perhaps the original idea of S5 Psilencers should return, hmm?
[For those who are curious, only T3/4+ is considered as the only multi-wound T3 infantry currently in the game are in the Skitarii army, which is all 4+ save T3 infantry; for T5, I skipped 6+ as I don't recall any multi-wound T5 regular infantry with 6+ saves, and for T6 I skipped 6+/4+ as again, I do not think that there are any T6 models with a 6+ or 4+ save, while T6/2+ is... not a good target to point a Psilencer at.]
SGTPozy wrote: Also, no Tau player defends the IA but some GK players (not naming anyone) seems to want an equally OP gun because reasons.
I was merely stating that half of the armies would have access to them (just like Imperial Knights) which makes it worse.
I was merely pointing out that S8+ Large Blasts are the primary reason for a lack of multi-wound, middling-save infantry showing up- the IA was thrown out as an (admittedly pointed) example.
SGTPozy wrote: If we went back to the 6th ed ally matrix (which made more sense) then it wouldn't be a problem as only one army would have access to it.
The 6th Ed Allies Matrix has its issues too- Sisters and BTs being Desperate Allies at one time might have made sense with them intended to draw a parallel between the Protestant/Catholic tensions that plagued Britain (and much of Europe) for a couple centuries, but the current fluff actually makes the Sisters and BT more likely to be very buddy-buddy.
You also don't really seem to get that GKs can't bring much to the table as an Allied Detachment, given that that severely limits the available options and GKs, being as expensive as they are, make a very poor "bolt-on" addition to an army.
SGTPozy wrote: What size table do you play on as I can guarantee that the 'always out of range' argument is a complete and utter myth.
Hardly; it's simple math. For example, the Riptide can move 6+2D6" per turn, and is typically armed with a 60" range weapon system. The most commonly taken AP2/AP1 weapons (Plasma, Grav, Melta) have a range of 12-24", and many of these weapons are ideally situation at 12-18". Most of these weapons are carried by traditional Infantry (6" move). While you can put them on Bikers for a 12" move every turn... there's still the issue that the Riptide can be deployed such that it is out of LOS, and then it can JSJ back-and-forth between cover.
Further, the 60" range of a Riptide's IA means that the only practical limitation on whether or not it can shoot things is "can it get LOS". Even Grav Bikers have to work under the limitation of "are they in range". Riptides? Not so much.
For another example, there's the Wraithknight. It's typically armed with 36" range weapons, and as a Jump MC it can move 12" per turn. Once again, it can hang back out of range of a lot of the weapons that can hurt it. The things that can reliably damage a WK are also S8+, rather than S6+, making it generally more difficult to damage. Given that it has to be within 36", however, the weapons that can hurt it are likely in range... but those same weapons have such low RoF (typically 1 shot per turn) that they need an enormous- and generally impractical- amount of weapon saturation on the field.
So maybe against a WK this "out of range" argument is a myth. But Riptides? Yeah, good luck getting into range.
Oh, and to be clear, I never said "always". I said "most" weapons that can hurt a 'Tide are not going to be able to get into range. Lascannons are a poor solution to the problem, given that they are even more expensive than Plasma Guns, require the unit to sit still, and have a poor RoF that makes them bad at killing MCs in general.
SGTPozy wrote: A ranged anti-vehicle option doesn't really suit the theme of the army (as fluff-wise they should be an ally 'dex). However a short range melta power would suit them, something like: 8" S8 Ap1 WC2 melta
You did notice that my recommendation was a 24" range weapon? "Ranged" it may be, but it's no Lascannon; GK shooting is almost invariably focused around the 24" band, so I recommended a solution that fit that.
Also, a WC2, 8" melta shot is possibly the worst suggestion I have ever seen for GK anti-armor. At that range, you need to be within 4" to get 2D6 pen, which means that you're close enough for an assault, and you should probably just charge and punch the tank to death anyways. It doesn't help in the slightest bit- a GK anti-armor gun should be suited to the rest of the armies shooting- which is focused at the 24" band.
Regardless of GK fluff status affecting the nature of their army book, the fact is that GKs can be played as a stand-alone army. In fact, the only army that can't be played stand-alone is the Imperial Assassins. Given that they can be played as a stand-alone army, they should probably have some way to shoot a vehicle with a reasonable expectation of good results.
It doesn't have to be some kind of 48"+ deathbeam murdergun. It just needs to be suited to the rest of the armies shooting, which works best at ~18-24".
Bharring wrote: GK may wound MCs less reliably. But they often only need one unsaved wound, whereas most factions need 5 or so.
Would you rather wound on a 6+ with ID, or a 4+ without? Depends on the target, obviously.
I'd say that this why Psilencers simply getting Assault instead of Heavy, and then either S5 or S4+Shred is probably the simplest&best solution- it makes them somewhat capable against MCs, but not so much so as to be gibbing them all over the place.
The other option is to give Psilencers a single "anti-MC" shot, and not really touch the current profile (other than making it Assault 6).
Though I'm pretty sure that the average MC is only 4 wounds, and not 5+... though WKs do have 6 (!) for some reason.
Bharring wrote: GK could certainly use some shooty AT help. I think I like the idea of it being short range (12-24), though.
That 18-24" band where GK shooting is generally designed and optimized to be at? Yeah, that's exactly where any new AV functionality should go. 12" is a tad too short, IMO, and also doesn't sync well with the GK's strong emphasis on 18-24" shooting. But yes, no more than a 24" range weapon.
Which is why my current "no new model gubbins needed" concept is to let Psycannons fire an Assault 1 24" Haywire shot. Haywire is a fantastic way to fight vehicles, but at 24" it's limited in its ability to threaten things (unless you splurge for a big Interceptor Squad), and as a single Haywire shot it's also difficult-if-not-impossible for it to "instagib" vehicles, or hull them out with a very small number of weapons.
This also opens up the way for Purgation Squads to be improved quite nicely, IMO, as they have an easier time getting special weapon density (I assume that Purifiers would be limited to 2 specials max, though they would still be able to go 2 at 5-man for MSU builds).
Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.
Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.
special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.
Xenomancers wrote: Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.
Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.
special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.
Xenomancers wrote: Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.
Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.
special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.
Psycannons themselves need some fixing- right now a Psycannon is basically just an AC+1... which is dumb. It ends up coming off as a "we're GKs, so we automatically get to be better because reasons", which IMO contributes to the general malaise that GKs as an army seem to attract.
Moreover, dropping S7+Rending (or S7+Lance, as has been suggested by others), in favor of a single-shot Haywire profile accomplishes the "I hate vehicles" facet of GK shooting. In fact, I would argue that it does it better. Of course, part of that is due to the fact that hulling things out generally works better, and fishing for an Explodes result... not so much.
Single shot haywire would suck since we don;t have enough guns as is. It works for dark eldar because they can take a ton of it but greyknights would have a vary limited amount.
It's not as bad as you make it out though; DE Haywire guns are actually pretty heavily limited; you can get 4 into a squad of Scourges, and you can get another onto a Talos as a twin-linked mount.
GKs are able to take Psycannons on all of their infantry units. Psycannons might be limited to having an alternate profile providing a single Haywire shot, but they can get a good amount of weapons into a list. The referenced proposal is also contingent upon changes to Psycannons to allow for the increased versatility of the Haywire shot being added.
Multi-shot Haywire at present is limited to the Skitarii, and Arc Rifles cost 15 points (IE, as much as a Plasma Gun) and are 24" Rapid Fire. Skitarii, however, are an army that is pretty much universally footslogging infantry and walker support.
GKs have a lot more mobility options in comparison- Interceptors with their 12" Jump Infantry movement and 30" shunt moves, DKs (12" Jump move+30" shunt), as well as native access to DTs.
Xenomancers wrote: Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.
Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.
special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.
Psycannons themselves need some fixing- right now a Psycannon is basically just an AC+1... which is dumb. It ends up coming off as a "we're GKs, so we automatically get to be better because reasons", which IMO contributes to the general malaise that GKs as an army seem to attract.
Moreover, dropping S7+Rending (or S7+Lance, as has been suggested by others), in favor of a single-shot Haywire profile accomplishes the "I hate vehicles" facet of GK shooting. In fact, I would argue that it does it better. Of course, part of that is due to the fact that hulling things out generally works better, and fishing for an Explodes result... not so much.
So your suggestion is to remove our only good weapon and make it a single shot haywire? because a psycannon is better than an assault cannon?
This allows you to choose between up to 3 S6/AP3 shots (IE, effective against T6/3+ MCs and anything T5 below and 3+ or worse), with up to 36" of range, and an automatic Perils just for getting successful hits on any Psykers that get shot by the weapon...
OR, a 24" Haywire shot.
So no, I am not destroying the "only good weapon" in the GK list- merely adjusting it to accommodate a secondary Haywire profile in addition to an adjusted "standard" profile.
*For those who may or may not inevitably complain about my repeated reposting of my suggestion... it's because nobody ever fething reads my proposals, and then when I reference a singular aspect of it they lose their gak and act like I'm the most evil fething bastard in the history of the world.
Xenomancers wrote: Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.
Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.
special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.
Your suggestion wins in my opinion
Automatically Appended Next Post: I read your proposal, whiskey. I quite like it but I kinda prefer Xenomancer's new gun (I don't think that the psycannon should be ap 3).
Automatically Appended Next Post: What about this:
Purgation squads have this power (no other unit can get this).
S8 ap1 armourbane (Is that the rule where you do 2d6 armour pen? I'm away from my rulebook ATM)
WC2 or WC3
Every model in the unit gets to use this power (so you cast it once, then roll to hit for each model in the unit).
This gives Purgation teams two possible roles:
The first being its current role of a devastator equivalent.
The second being a close-range anti-armour killer that can also finish the target off in combat if it fails.
This also means that the force weapons and storm bolters are not wasted either since they will be like Strike squads but with good anti-vehicle powers.
This allows you to choose between up to 3 S6/AP3 shots (IE, effective against T6/3+ MCs and anything T5 below and 3+ or worse), with up to 36" of range, and an automatic Perils just for getting successful hits on any Psykers that get shot by the weapon...
OR, a 24" Haywire shot.
So no, I am not destroying the "only good weapon" in the GK list- merely adjusting it to accommodate a secondary Haywire profile in addition to an adjusted "standard" profile.
*For those who may or may not inevitably complain about my repeated reposting of my suggestion... it's because nobody ever fething reads my proposals, and then when I reference a singular aspect of it they lose their gak and act like I'm the most evil fething bastard in the history of the world.
Well - the AP3 is nice - and the 36" range. I'd have to play it to get the feel of it but it seems like it could have potential. Sorry didn't see the other part of your suggestion earlier.
Xenomancers wrote: Here my take on this. I don't think the GK need a weapon like the psilencer. If it is to remain it need substantial buffs to compete with a psycannon which is all around a pretty BA gun. Psycannon is not bad for MC so why do we need a weapon that excells at MC? What we need is an AP1 ranged weapon with some flare.
Psyorb blaster
Range 18" str special ap 1 assault 1 blast , gets hot.
special profile
1- no effect
2-5 auto wound/pen
6 auto wound/pen no saves of any kind - if the target has the daemon special rule it is removed from play.
Your suggestion wins in my opinion
Automatically Appended Next Post: I read your proposal, whiskey. I quite like it but I kinda prefer Xenomancer's new gun (I don't think that the psycannon should be ap 3).
Automatically Appended Next Post: What about this:
Purgation squads have this power (no other unit can get this).
S8 ap1 armourbane (Is that the rule where you do 2d6 armour pen? I'm away from my rulebook ATM)
WC2 or WC3
Every model in the unit gets to use this power (so you cast it once, then roll to hit for each model in the unit).
This gives Purgation teams two possible roles:
The first being its current role of a devastator equivalent.
The second being a close-range anti-armour killer that can also finish the target off in combat if it fails.
This also means that the force weapons and storm bolters are not wasted either since they will be like Strike squads but with good anti-vehicle powers.
Totally board with this. or something like it. How about this. Remove the force sword from the purgations. In it's place they get some sort of psyonic emitter or focusing device. They should have a anti infantry and an anti armor spell in exchange for hammer hand and banishment.
1 gives all their range attacks fleshbane and armor bane.
1 gives their ranged attacks instant death.
with these changes they should cost more probably in the area of 23-25 points each. Man that would be a killer and fun squad to play.
SGTPozy wrote: I read your proposal, whiskey. I quite like it but I kinda prefer Xenomancer's new gun (I don't think that the psycannon should be ap 3).
Why not? Currently the best low-AP shooting that GKs get is either via vehicles- typically Stormravens that do not come on until Turn 2 at the earliest (and that's if you roll lucky), via Daemonhammers/DK combat, or by fishing for 6s with Rending.
Purgation squads have this power (no other unit can get this).
S8 ap1 armourbane (Is that the rule where you do 2d6 armour pen? I'm away from my rulebook ATM)
WC2 or WC3
Every model in the unit gets to use this power (so you cast it once, then roll to hit for each model in the unit).
This gives Purgation teams two possible roles:
The first being its current role of a devastator equivalent.
The second being a close-range anti-armour killer that can also finish the target off in combat if it fails.
This also means that the force weapons and storm bolters are not wasted either since they will be like Strike squads but with good anti-vehicle powers.
Armorbane provides 2D6 Armor Penetration, yes. The Melta rule also provides 2D6 armor pen, but only at half-range; IE a typical 12" range meltagun can only benefit from Armorbane at 6".
There's also some... other... issues with your proposal. First off, you didn't actually reference a range value, so I'm assuming that you're going to go with your initial 8" range suggestion. Which makes this a last-ditch option; how are you supposed to get a Purgation Squad that close? Rhinos are AV11/11/10 3HPs, which for how cheap they are is nice... but it's still not super durable, and will likely be shot down before it ever gets close enough to deliver the Purgation squad. Not only that, but how does a Purgation Squad get to assault whatever they zap with that power, if you put them in a Rhino?
If you throw them into a Land Raider... congratulations, that's two Heavy Support slots spent on a Hail Mary option to try to kill vehicles. Even if it's Armorbane for the full range rather than using Melta (making it 4" Armorbane range), you're still going to have to get so close that you're going to be able to charge it... and if they're supposed to charge in to finish things off, then that means that they have to spend points on combat upgrades. Purgation Squads don't want to be charging anything, they want to shoot it to death, especially since the only thing going for a Purgation Squad is that it can get 4 special weapons.
Plus, due to the way that the Brotherhood of Psykers rule works, the entire squad is treated as a single "model" for the purposes of psychic tests... which means that only one member is considered to manifest the power- so you can't have an S8/AP1 Armorbane shot from every member.
Also... the simpler solution is to give them Vortex of Doom. But I doubt that you'd support that, given that it means that Purgation Squads can now cast a Str D/AP1 Vortex blast at things. Nevermind that it's only 12", is WC3, and causes an auto-Perils result if you fail to cast the power.
In truth, to improve Purgation Squads needs only two things:
1) Improve GK special weapons, particularly when used on non-Relentless (IE, PAGK) Infantry models
2) Change Purifiers to be 2 special weapons, regardless of squad size; this allows Purifiers to roll MSU with double specials, but prevents them from overshadowing Purgation squads in terms of total weapon density.
Xenomancers wrote: Well - the AP3 is nice - and the 36" range. I'd have to play it to get the feel of it but it seems like it could have potential. Sorry didn't see the other part of your suggestion earlier.
It's okay; I know that I tend to bury such recommendations in a wall of logic, reasoning, and math... though that's basically par for the course in Proposed Rules /shrugs.
Xenomancers wrote: Totally board with this. or something like it. How about this. Remove the force sword from the purgations. In it's place they get some sort of psyonic emitter or focusing device. They should have a anti infantry and an anti armor spell in exchange for hammer hand and banishment.
1 gives all their range attacks fleshbane and armor bane.
1 gives their ranged attacks instant death.
with these changes they should cost more probably in the area of 23-25 points each. Man that would be a killer and fun squad to play.
Part of the problem with this is that it presumably would require redoing the Sanctic tree... which I rather doubt will happen. Giving Purgation Squads access to the Vortex of Doom power would be a simpler, cleaner, and overall more elegant solution.
Also, I rather like that Purgation Squads have NF Swords; not only does it contribute to the overall flavor of the army, but it also makes them potentially very risky to assault- not only will the majority of their attacks be AP3, but if they're armed with Psilencers and activated Force, then all their attacks in combat will be Instant Death too!
"Part of the problem with this is that it presumably would require redoing the Sanctic tree... which I rather doubt will happen. Giving Purgation Squads access to the Vortex of Doom power would be a simpler, cleaner, and overall more elegant solution."
Thought about but it has issues (vortex). it requires 3 warp charges so they wouldn't be able to cast it. Plus. That realistically needs 7 warp charges to go off and almost autoatically perils at 7 dice so it's kinda to risky. Making Purgation ML3 would also just be insanity.
I was just thinking give them some special unique powers kind of like harlequin spirit seer. I agree force swords are pretty iconic for GK. I just consider them ranges specialist and they have adapted a different method to channel their powers.
SGTPozy wrote: I read your proposal, whiskey. I quite like it but I kinda prefer Xenomancer's new gun (I don't think that the psycannon should be ap 3).
Why not? Currently the best low-AP shooting that GKs get is either via vehicles- typically Stormravens that do not come on until Turn 2 at the earliest (and that's if you roll lucky), via Daemonhammers/DK combat, or by fishing for 6s with Rending.
Purgation squads have this power (no other unit can get this).
S8 ap1 armourbane (Is that the rule where you do 2d6 armour pen? I'm away from my rulebook ATM)
WC2 or WC3
Every model in the unit gets to use this power (so you cast it once, then roll to hit for each model in the unit).
This gives Purgation teams two possible roles:
The first being its current role of a devastator equivalent.
The second being a close-range anti-armour killer that can also finish the target off in combat if it fails.
This also means that the force weapons and storm bolters are not wasted either since they will be like Strike squads but with good anti-vehicle powers.
Armorbane provides 2D6 Armor Penetration, yes. The Melta rule also provides 2D6 armor pen, but only at half-range; IE a typical 12" range meltagun can only benefit from Armorbane at 6".
There's also some... other... issues with your proposal. First off, you didn't actually reference a range value, so I'm assuming that you're going to go with your initial 8" range suggestion. Which makes this a last-ditch option; how are you supposed to get a Purgation Squad that close? Rhinos are AV11/11/10 3HPs, which for how cheap they are is nice... but it's still not super durable, and will likely be shot down before it ever gets close enough to deliver the Purgation squad. Not only that, but how does a Purgation Squad get to assault whatever they zap with that power, if you put them in a Rhino?
If you throw them into a Land Raider... congratulations, that's two Heavy Support slots spent on a Hail Mary option to try to kill vehicles. Even if it's Armorbane for the full range rather than using Melta (making it 4" Armorbane range), you're still going to have to get so close that you're going to be able to charge it... and if they're supposed to charge in to finish things off, then that means that they have to spend points on combat upgrades. Purgation Squads don't want to be charging anything, they want to shoot it to death, especially since the only thing going for a Purgation Squad is that it can get 4 special weapons.
Plus, due to the way that the Brotherhood of Psykers rule works, the entire squad is treated as a single "model" for the purposes of psychic tests... which means that only one member is considered to manifest the power- so you can't have an S8/AP1 Armorbane shot from every member.
Also... the simpler solution is to give them Vortex of Doom. But I doubt that you'd support that, given that it means that Purgation Squads can now cast a Str D/AP1 Vortex blast at things. Nevermind that it's only 12", is WC3, and causes an auto-Perils result if you fail to cast the power.
In truth, to improve Purgation Squads needs only two things:
1) Improve GK special weapons, particularly when used on non-Relentless (IE, PAGK) Infantry models
2) Change Purifiers to be 2 special weapons, regardless of squad size; this allows Purifiers to roll MSU with double specials, but prevents them from overshadowing Purgation squads in terms of total weapon density.
I didn't see the S6 so I guess that's okay then (I only glanced over it).
Yes I meant 8". Can't they deep strike? If they can't then I'd day that they can now.
They can charge if they didn't disembark that turn (just like everyone else) so they'll only be able to charge later on in the game. I'd also allow them to take melee weapons if they cannot now.
It would be armourbane so they'll destroy anything within range. Storm Ravens would probably be good for my suggestion; drop them out and destroy some vehicles!
Whilst traditionally Purgation squads want to stay back, this proposition would play completely different (maybe it should just be a new squad then) as I'd be a squad full of meltaguns essentially.
I'm well aware of Brotherhood of Psykers, so it'd act like Warp Blast for Tyranids where the number of shots fired equals the number of models in the unit with this power.
Maybe you could pay to upgrade the squad to have Vortex of Doom instead? I am neutral on that as GW is pushing Strength D things in the game (IK and new Bloodthirster).
It is silly that Purifiers can have 4 special weapons so yes, that should change.
Xenomancers wrote: "Part of the problem with this is that it presumably would require redoing the Sanctic tree... which I rather doubt will happen. Giving Purgation Squads access to the Vortex of Doom power would be a simpler, cleaner, and overall more elegant solution."
Thought about but it has issues (vortex). it requires 3 warp charges so they wouldn't be able to cast it. Plus. That realistically needs 7 warp charges to go off and almost autoatically perils at 7 dice so it's kinda to risky. Making Purgation ML3 would also just be insanity.
I was just thinking give them some special unique powers kind of like harlequin spirit seer. I agree force swords are pretty iconic for GK. I just consider them ranges specialist and they have adapted a different method to channel their powers.
Pretty sure that the current psychic rules actually use ML as a measure of how many powers a unit can generate as well as the amount of WC it contributes to the army- I've gone through the BRB several times and can't find anything that says that you have to have a ML=WC to cast a power. I remember that in 6th Edition it was like that, but as far as I can tell, 7th Edition changed it when it moved to an entirely separate psychic phase.
To be clear, I'm not really in favor of giving Purgation squads Vortex of Doom; I'd rather that we just fixed the weapon options so that Purgation squads are a good way to get weapon saturation, and then fix Purifiers so that Purifiers are no longer 2 specials per 5 guys. Purifiers can still definitely be 2 specials at a minimum squad size, but they should cap at that amount to prevent them from infringing on Purgation squads the way that they currently do.
Of course, I certainly wouldn't turn down a return of Astral Aim...
SGTPozy wrote: I didn't see the S6 so I guess that's okay then (I only glanced over it).
Le sigh. See, this is the sort of thing that makes me repeat myself over and over that makes some people mad. Because nobody bothers to actually read what I say. I will also point out that my Psycannon recommendation also loses Rending.
SGTPozy wrote: Yes I meant 8". Can't they deep strike? If they can't then I'd day that they can now.
No, for GK models to be able to DS they either have to have the rule specifically included in the unit entry, OR be equipped with TDA. Purgation Squads have neither. Moreover, being able to DS in doesn't fix the problem.
My original idea of including a psychically-boosted melta weapon was that such a weapon would have 18" of range; while this means that it has to be within 9" in order to gain Armorbane, it's still going to be able to do something if you were, for example, to DS in some GKTs with such a weapon and they scattered out of the 9" melta range.
Your proposal means that the Purgation Squad is functionally dead weight unless they get within 8".
SGTPozy wrote: They can charge if they didn't disembark that turn (just like everyone else) so they'll only be able to charge later on in the game. I'd also allow them to take melee weapons if they cannot now.
So in other words they can stand around and get shot in the face for a turn. There's a reason why it's incredibly rare to stick punchy things into transports that they can't assault out of.
The problem is also not "they can't take combat weapons". The problem is that the selling point of a Purgation squad is that they bring a greater special weapon density to the field... and if they're in combat, then they cannot use the expensive guns that they brought to the party.
SGTPozy wrote: It would be armourbane so they'll destroy anything within range. Storm Ravens would probably be good for my suggestion; drop them out and destroy some vehicles!
Good luck reliably bring a Stormraven on. Let us also not forget that the conventional wisdom of Stormravens- or really any Hover Flyer- is that to Hover is death. Which means that the Purgation Squad is basically parachuting out of the back... which means that they count as DS'ing in... which means they can't assault.
Real brilliant idea man, gotta give it to you, I could never have thought of something so idiotic brilliant!
SGTPozy wrote: Whilst traditionally Purgation squads want to stay back, this proposition would play completely different (maybe it should just be a new squad then) as I'd be a squad full of meltaguns essentially.
Purgations, as I have mentioned, are defined by their special weapon density. A better choice for receiving such a... questionable... power would be either Purifiers (who already have the amazing Cleansing Flame) or Interceptors (who are Jump Infantry).
What do you think? Should Purifiers, an amazing assault/anti-tarpit unit, or Interceptors, who can easily maneuver into range- especially with that slick 30" shunt move- get this power?
I think Interceptors, because I could totally use that suggestion to absolutely destroy a Riptide! not really, just buying FNP means it removes ~2.5 wounds, at which point the Interceptors die like bitches to the 'Tides IA
SGTPozy wrote: I'm well aware of Brotherhood of Psykers, so it'd act like Warp Blast for Tyranids where the number of shots fired equals the number of models in the unit with this power.
Maybe you could pay to upgrade the squad to have Vortex of Doom instead? I am neutral on that as GW is pushing Strength D things in the game (IK and new Bloodthirster).
Vortex of Doom has its own issues, the same way that your proposal is not without problems. In any case, I'm not super keen on that idea anyways- I find it simpler to simply fix the GK specials and then make sure that Purgation squads are the solution for special weapon saturation. It also helps fix the major problem of how some GK specials do not play well with PAGKs.
As far as I'm concerned, the only issue GKs have at the moment (beside Purgation squads being absolutely pointless atm,) is that Psycannons are a salvo weapon.
Psycannons being the only 'long' range high str weapon that foot GKs can take, yet now a weapon that only terminators can effectively use without neutering their unit is a big problem. Suddenly, Strikes, Interceptors and Purgation squads are down a weapon and are dependent on a flamer weapon for anything above str 4 if they want to be able to move/charge.
How about we make a checkpoint? Everyone could post their complete answers to the following Questons.
What should be done with the Psilencer? What should be done with the Psycannon? Should there be a new gun added?
If your proposal involves any new rules, please write them out in full.
Here’s my new suggestion.
Psilencer: 24", S4, AP4, Assault 3, Haywire, Poisoned (3+) Psycannon: 36", S7, AP3, Salvo 3/4, Rending No new gun being added
The Psycannon is the heavy hitter, but the Psilencer still fills the various rolls well, but as a less expensive option, allowing the extra points to be spent elsewhere.
Well, currently the Psilencer has only one thing it shoots at passably well, but it's unique and flavorful in that it's the only gun in the game with Force. Quite frankly, I think that we should keep Force for Psilencers- it's pretty cool, and opens up some options that really don't exist in other armies.
But it needs to be more than "kill multi-wound infantry". The easy way around that is to just give it S5 and Assault rather than Heavy. 6 shots at S5 are pretty dangerous for infantry, and can be effective when fired into vehicle rear armor. S5+Force is also not as bad as was previously assumed- in fact, S4+Shred outperforms it against everything except T6, in which case S5 is pulling ahead by ~0.03-0.07 unsaved wounds. Against T7, both S4 and S5 wound on 6+, but S4+Shred gets to re-roll, while S4 cannot harm T8, but S5 can- even if it's only on a 6+.
So, to that end, these are the profiles I recommend for the Psilencer and Gatling Psilencer:
Gatling Psilencer 24" Heavy 12 S5 AP- Force, Pinning
18" Heavy 4 SX AP2 Fleshbane
I've decided to add pinning as this provides it some additional utility when not activating Force- the RoF and S5 can combine nicely to provide an excellent source of Pinning shots, even with AP-. Also, these profiles are likely to not require any price hikes to the weapons, thus preventing the already expensive GKs from getting even more expensive.
The secondary profile, with a significantly reduced RoF is for anti-MC and anti-TEQ duty. By swapping Force for Fleshbane and adding AP2, while also cutting RoF and range, we can add a profile that can bring down both MCs (due to Fleshbane and AP2) and TEQ (due to mostly to AP2). A pair of Psilencers isn't quite as dangerous to TEQ (or MCs, for that matter), as say, Plasma Vets or triple Caliver Vanguard... but it's a lot more flexible and is on a unit that can kill gribbly beasties in combat quite well.
It's also, per-gun, cheaper. Especially in comparison to Plasma Calivers, which cost a huge 30 points per gun!
Oh boy, this is a big one. Quite frankly, I personally think that Psycannons have been broken ever since the 5th edition book showed up. Yeah, it's only two editions ago, but it was also such a huge change- and one that just came flying out of left field in a way that nobody could have predicted- that it just needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. Here's what I propose:
Heavy Psycannon 24" Heavy 6 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock
24" Heavy 1 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock, Large Blast, Shred
18" Heavy 2 SX AP- Haywire
For those who are curious, Psi-Shock is just the same rule that's attached to thrown Psyk-Out Grenades as well as the One-Use profile of the Condemnor Boltgun. It's basically case of "auto-Perils for anybody who gets shot with it". The secondary profile of the Psycannon is a Haywire shot- it's a single 18" shot, but GKs are also a fantastic mid-range shooting army, and have a number of great options for getting into the midfield. Yes, even Rhinos can work- though you'll need plenty of armor saturation to really pull it off.
Also, a single 18" Haywire shot as the secondary profile helps to keep Psycannons from overshadowing those armies which are much more, "known" I suppose, for fielding Haywire weapons. The DE Haywire Blaster for example, is 24" Assault 1 S4 AP4 Haywire, while the Skitarii have the Arc Rifle, a 24" Rapid Fire S6 AP5 Haywire weapon. In some ways Psycannons are in fact better than both- you get anti-MEQ, some anti-MC/-light armor, some anti-psyker, and some anti-heavy armor, all in the same package. As such, I opted to bring the Haywire shot down a little.
These changes make the Psilencer an anti-fleshy thing gun, and the Psycannon an anti-psyker/-vehicle weapon... but not in the silly "I are better Psycannon because lawlreasons" type of way that Psycannons currently are.
I think that bringing in a new weapon to specifically cover the anti-MC/-vehicle role has a lot of benefits, but that we should perhaps focus on methods which don't require model changes, as they're a lot easier to playtest.
In the case of bringing in a new weapon, I think it's helpful to look at the kinds of guns other armies have at their disposal:
-short range anti-GEQ -short range anti-MEQ/-TEQ/-MC -short range anti-vehicle/-MC -long range anti-GEQ -long range anti-MEQ/-TEQ/-MC -long range anti-vehicle/-MC -long range anti-flyer
Currently, Incinerators operate in the "short-range anti-GEQ" role, Psilencers as a sort of "long-range anti-GEQ" role, along with taking over some anti-multi-wound duties, and Psycannons act as "anti-everything else". With the above proposals, Psilencers change to a sort of "mid range" anti-GEQ/-MC weapon, while Psycannons act as mid-range anti-MEQ/-MC/-vehicle weapons. Anti-TEQ is also covered by the secondary profile of the Psilencer. For truly "long range" firepower, GKs will have to rely on bringing Razorbacks and Rifleman Dreads... but in exchange they become a really dangerous mid-range shooting force with a very prickly counter-assault ability, and some great combat units (Purifiers, DKs).
1)What should be done with the Psilencer?
2)What should be done with the Psycannon?
3)Should there be a new gun added?
1) Nothing. I for one think that it is a good weapon as it currently is.
2) Become S6 Ap4 assault 2.
3) A new psychic power for a new unit.
8" witchfire WC3 S8 Ap2 Armourbane.
This power fires as many times as there are models in the unit with this power (so a 5 man squad will fire this power 5 times).
The new unit will be in Terminator armour and have the same access to special weapons and stuff like that as normal Terminators.
Maybe mastery level 2 for the unit.
SGTPozy wrote: 1) Nothing. I for one think that it is a good weapon as it currently is.
How are Psilencers okay? At the very least they need to change from Heavy to Assault, because it's literally the worst possible weapon you could give any of the PAGK squads.
So, I'm guessing that that would mean Psycannons also lose Rending? You realize that that's an incredibly heavy handed nerf to the weapon right? I mean, I realize that I advocate the removal of rending, and dropping it down to 3 shots and S6, but I also recommend going to AP3 and adding Psi-Shock, plus adding a secondary Haywire profile. Just dropping RoF in half, removing Rending and dropping it to S6 instead of 7, with nothing else to compensate is very heavy handed- do you just have some kind of raging hateboner against GKs?
This power fires as many times as there are models in the unit with this power (so a 5 man squad will fire this power 5 times).
The new unit will be in Terminator armour and have the same access to special weapons and stuff like that as normal Terminators.
Maybe mastery level 2 for the unit.
Even with TDA, an 8" mindbullet at a whopping WC3 is simply too little gain for far too much risk- in order to get into position, you have to DS... quite frankly I would never use such a unit. Against, say, Tau, it's IA bait. Against anything with an AV you're risking mishaps and fishing for 6s. Having the new unit use TDA also makes them expensive, and ML2 is going to be required just so you've got the WC to burn on this power... and that's assuming they even make it into range to fire it.
I don't think I've ever seen a worse set of suggestions to fix GKs- and I've heavily criticized some other ideas and even insulted them but this... this is a whole other level of horrible.
Psilencer: 36", S4/ap-/ Heavy 6, Force, Daemonbane.
- The gun itself has the look of a true heavy weapon, hence, I think it should stay Heavy. However, if it does, then it only seems fair to give it a range increase to compensate, so that PAGK's such as Strikes & Purgators can do a better job of becoming an area denial unit who can lay down lots of suppressing fire.
Daemonbane allows the gun to really become scary against the GK's natural foe.
Psycannon: 24", S7/ap4, Heavy 4, Psy-shock, Psybolt.
18", S7/ap4, Assault 3, Psy-shock, Psybolt, Cumbersome.
*Psybolt = any to-wound roll of a 6 counts as ap2.
*Cumbersom = any unit that makes a shooting attack and then assaults in the same turn counts as making a Disordered Charge
- No more Rending because frankly, it was among the stupidest things in the game back in 5th/6th that what is essentially a supped-up Heavy Bolter was better at killing av14 Land Raiders than a god damned Lascannon! Now it can still readily hull point light to medium vehicles to death quite well, but the heaviest stuff isn't hiding in absolute fear of the almighty 'Wardgun(tm)'
However, giving it a similar kind of 'Rending but not-really Rending' vs. non-vehicles gives the GK's some added weight against high save opponents, and makes the gun scarier to Monstrous Creatures.
As for the idea of Cumbersome, it gives PAGK's the ability to move and shoot at full BS, however, by not gaining charge bonuses, it should help keep the gun from going back to a sheer no-brainer across the entire army.
For those who are curious, Psi-Shock is just ... "auto-Perils for anybody who gets shot with it".
I think that bringing in a new weapon to specifically cover the anti-MC/-vehicle role has a lot of benefits, but that we should perhaps focus on methods which don't require model changes, as they're a lot easier to playtest.
new gun: A new psychic power for a new unit. 8" witchfire WC3 S8 Ap2 Armourbane.
This power fires as many times as there are models in the unit with this power (so a 5 man squad will fire this power 5 times).
The new unit will be in Terminator armour and have the same access to special weapons and stuff like that as normal Terminators. Maybe mastery level 2 for the unit.
I can't even give odds for a 3 Warp Charge power due to the sheer number of potential outcomes just from the number of dice attempted, and those denied, and the chance of perils.
Psycannon: 24", S7/ap4, Heavy 4, Psy-shock, Psybolt. 18", S7/ap4, Assault 3, Psy-shock, Psybolt, Cumbersome. *Psybolt = any to-wound roll of a 6 counts as ap2. *Cumbersom = any unit that makes a shooting attack and then assaults in the same turn counts as making a Disordered Charge
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannon? 20 points I like the PC. I'd change nothing about it - except maybe change it back to assault or give strike squads scout/infiltrate.
Psilencer? 20 points 36" str5 ap - shred. Salvo 4/6
New weapon? Yes - a blast weapon - limited to purgs and paladins Psyorb blaster 30 points 18" str special ap1 assault 1 blast, gets hot
special = 1 no effect 2-5 auto pen/wound 6 auto pen/wound no saves of any kind - if target is daemon it is removed from play.
Psy-orb Blaster: 18" str special ap1 assault 1 blast, gets hot 1 no effect 2-5 auto pen/wound 6 auto pen/wound no saves of any kind - if target is daemon it is removed from play.[/b][spoiler] (Assuming 3 hits for Wound models up to T4, 1 hit for T5+ or AV)
My opinions on the various suggestions for Special Weapons.
I don’t believe that a special weapon statistically dealing less than 0.5 Wounds in a shooting phase under optimal circumstances is worth mentioning, as it will often not be under optimal circumstances, which effectively means it’s statistically not going to be doing anything most of the time. Similarly, an anti-vehicle weapon needs to statistically deal multiple Hull Points per turn, or deal at least 1 with a chance to explode the target to be useful to the Grey Knights.
We need weapons that consistently deal damage more than a weapon that will most likely do nothing, but if it does do something, might kill the enemy outright. My critiques are primarily focused on PAGK.
Spoiler:
Psilencer: 24”, S4, AP-, Heavy 6, Force The Current Psilencer has a heavy profile which means it fires at BS1 on the move, and the firing unit cannot assault after its use. Even if stationary, it will not statistically deal an unsaved Wound to a T4,2+, or T5,3+ enemy or better, and it can’t harm T8 or AV11 at all. What good is Force if it can’t Wound the enemies you need it to, when you need it to.
Psycannon: 24”, S7, AP4, Salvo 2/4, Rending The Current Psycannon has a Salvo profile that is less bad than the Heavy Profile the Psilencer has, but is still a liability to its unit. If Stationary, it has good odds up to T7,3+, or AV12, but drops below a 50% chance beyond that. However, if the firer moved, the range is cut down to a piddly 12” and halves the number of shots. So it is a weapon that if fired on the move, can only be fired within assault range, yet prevents the firing unit from being allowed to assault. As for its mobile effectiveness, it only retains better than a 50% chance of dealing an unsaved Wound against enemies with a 4+ save or AV10.
Both of these Special Weapons are liabilities without sufficient merit to be taken on any non-Relentless model.
Psilencer: 24", S4, AP4, Assault 3, Haywire, Poisoned (3+) Bill’s suggested Psilencer is an anti-vehicle gun that removes hull points instead of going for an Explodes! result. It deals 1.667 Hull Points per firing, but isn’t capable of getting an Explodes! result. It is capable of Wounding all enemies, but has the better than 50% odds against 4+ or weaker saves. As an assault Profile, there is no reason for a mobile unit such as Interceptors, or Deep Striking Strike Squads to take it, as the shooting potential does not prevent them from charging or moving, and the opportunity costs are just the points for the weapon, and one model’s AP3 in close combat.
Psycannon: 36", S7, AP3, Salvo 3/4, Rending Bill’s suggested Psycannon leaves it as Salvo, but increases the range to 36”, and the mobile profile to 3 shots, to ensure that it has a distinct role from the Psilencer. The Psycannon would become the weapon of choice for Purgation Squads sitting in cover on objectives, and giving them the range to be able to reach the enemy. For mobile units, the Psycannon would have an 18” range, shorter than their Storm Bolters, but long enough to be useful, while it is penalized 1 shot for moving, 3 shots has a much superior chance of dealing an unsaved Wound than two. And being as the weapon gives up a model’s close combat potential for shooting, and prevents the entire unit from assaulting, reliable shooting is a must.
Both of my proposed special weapons work in a Take-all-comers army. Both are capable of harming any type of enemy, though they have different statistical odds of doing so. One has an Assault Profile for mobile units, while the other is better suited for a Heavy-Support role with its increased range.
Psilencer (profile 1): 24" Assault 6 S5 AP- Force, Pinning Psilencer (profile 2): 18" Assault 2 SX AP2 Fleshbane Whiskey’s suggested Psilencer has a dual profile, and though I would prefer a single profile, this suggestion is likely the one that is most powerful against Wound models (dealing 1.111 Wounds against models without Invulnerable Saves), and its anti Vehicle power is negligible, which means it is extremely specialized. It does have Pinning, which is nice, but I’d have to see it in use before saying anything about how much of an effect it would have.
24" Assault 3 S6 AP3 Psi-Shock 18" Assault 1 SX AP- Haywire Whiskey’s suggested Psycannon is good against 3+ saves up to T7, though it only has a 22% chance of dealing a single unsaved Wound to T8,3+ that could possibly have Instant Death. The Haywire profile gives this weapon a 55% chance of taking a single hull point off of a vehicle, with no chance for an Explodes! result.
My issue with Whiskey’s suggestions is that it leaves no Special Weapon with a sufficiently good chance to harm Wraithknights, or Vehicles (The Psilencer either deals 0.222 Wounds with possible Instant Death, or 1.111 Wounds without any chance for Instant Death, while the Psycannon has no chance to explode any vehicles). That is a big problem to still have when both weapons have dual profiles, which should be able to fill any gaps.
Psilencer: (24", S4, AP-, Heavy 6, Force) Pozy says nothing’s wrong with the current Psilencer, so it shouldn’t be changed. I expressed my issues with the current Psilencer and feel no need to repeat them here.
Psycannon: (24", S6, AP4, Assault 2, Rending) Pozy didn’t explicitely say that his ideal Psycannon had Rending, so I tagged it on since he didn’t say he was removing it. Even so, this is by far the weakest suggestion for a Psycannon anyone has suggested. And it is still better than the Psilencer at literally everything, being as the Psilencer cannot statistically get the wounds it needs to Instant Death multi-Wound models.
8" witchfire WC3 S8 Ap2 Armourbane. Pozy. Warp Charge 3. Seriously? A pitiful 8” range isn’t bad enough, it has to be nearly impossible to cast? S8, AP2, Armourbane is great if it ever gets used, but this suggestion is far too costly and restrictive to be useful for the Grey Knights. Even firing as many times as there are models in the unit, it is too much of an all-or-nothing attack.
I completely disagree with the entirety of this suggestion.
Psilencer: 36", S4/ap-/ Heavy 6, Force, Daemonbane. Experiment’s Psilencer adds Daemonbane to the weapon profile. That lets it re-roll its slim chance to Wound against Daemons, but doesn’t help it against anything else. The 36” range would be nice if the price were reduced enough to warrant taking 4 of them on a Purgation Squad for a half decent chance of killing a single Monstrous Creature (though this suggestion still can’t harm a Wraithknight).
Psycannon (profile 1): 24", S7/ap4, Heavy 4, Psy-shock, Psybolt. Psycannon (profile 2): 18", S7/ap4, Assault 3, Psy-shock, Psybolt, Cumbersome. Experiment’s Psycannon has a dual profile, which I’ve made my opinion clear on. He kept the S7, AP4, as well as the heavy 4, which means it retains its effectiveness against Wound models when stationary. For the mobile profile he increased the number of shots to Assault 3, which I heartily approve of, as well as increasing the range from 12” to 18”. Causing Perils to Psykers is interesting, and I don’t know how much that would affect the game, being most armies don’t have many Psykers. Making a new rule that is like Rending but strips it of its usefulness against Vehicles I am staunchly against. This suggestion leaves the Psycannon as the only anti-vehicle Special Weapon, and makes it unable to reliably damage a Soulgrinder, and entirely unable to even glance AV14. This suggestion would make AV13+ the ultimate hard-counter to the Grey Knights.
If I were to make an alternative suggestion for this gun to a simpler profile that achieves the same effect (but not neutering its ability to harm AV14), it would be: 36”, S7, AP4, Salvo3/4, Psy-shock, Rending, + a special rule that allows the unit to assault after firing the weapon.
Psilencer: 20 points, 36" str5 ap - shred. Salvo 4/6 Xenomancer’s 36” Salvo is nice, and S5 gives it at least a tiny chance of Wounding a Wraithknight, and Shred helps to counter-balance AP-. But 20 points for dealing statistically between 0.5 and 1.3 unsaved Wounds is far too expensive, expecially when they’re also giving up their Nemesis force Swords, and the weapon cannot harm AV12. Psycannon: 20 points, change nothing about it - except maybe change it back to assault or give strike squads scout/infiltrate. Xenomancer’s suggestion gives the Psycannon a flat value, rather than giving the PAGK a 5pt discount for giving up their Nemesis Force Swords. Changing the profile back to an Assault 2, Heavy 4 would sufficiently make it viable for PAGK. But 20pts is much too expensive for the PAGK to pay, on top of losing their Nemesis Force Swords. The old 10 points from 5th Edition was fine.
Psyorb blaster: 30 points, 18" str special ap1 assault 1 blast, gets hot special = 1 no effect 2-5 auto pen/wound 6 auto pen/wound no saves of any kind - if target is daemon it is removed from play. Xenomancer’s new gun is interesting for how different it is from the other suggestions. Again, 30 points is far too expensive. A paladin with a Psyorb Blaster would be 85 points for a W2, T4, 2+,5++ model. I personally feel that blasts do not mesh well with the Grey Knights due to their need to get into close combat, and the tendency of Blasts to scatter, potentially killing their own unit if they are within Assault range. I also believe that “gets hot” is entirely unneeded, as the Grey Knights are already risking killing themselves every Psychic Phase, and they don’t need an expensive weapon that might kill the wielder on top of that.
If I could tweak the Psy-orb blaster profile, I’d make it a pistol without Get’s Hot, and make it available to Justicars and HQs. “Psyorb blaster: 18”, Sx, AP1, Pistol, Psyorb Psyorb: Instead of rolling to Wound or for Penetration as normal, roll a single dice. On a 1 there is no effect, on a 2-5 the enemy takes an AP1 Wound or Penetrating Hit, on a 6, the enemy takes an AP1 Wound or Penetrating Hit with no saving throws of any kind allowed. Additionally, if the target is a Daemon, and a 6 was rolled, the Daemon is removed from play”
I still like my suggestion the most, but if I were to chose someone else’s suggestion, I’d have to go with Xenomancer’s, provided the prices were brought down to something reasonable.
Rites of Teleportation (GK 94): should be a Special Rule for Grey Knight Strike Squads instead of a Command Benefit for the Nemesis Strike Force.
Psychic Brotherhood (GK83): should be a Command Benefit for the Nemesis Strike Force.
Grey Knight Brotherhood Formation (GK82): should be replaced entirely with a Purifier Formation (Crowe, 2-5 Squads of Purifiers), that grants the Command Benefits: Psychic Brotherhood, and Fiery Form from the Pyromancy Discipline (CR 196).
Grey Knight Chapter Tactics: These are the rules that apply across the Grey Knight Codex in the same way the Space Marine Chapter Tactics affect the chosen Chapter. If you think this is too much, compare them to the Iron Hands’ Chapter Tactics. This isn't really giving them anything new, just putting some of their rules into context for why the Grey Knights shouldn't be charged for them on their base unit costs. The Aegis Prefered Enemy (Daemons) Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit
Daemonology (Sanctic): Replace the #4 power (Purge Soul) with a Blessing that improves the AP of shooting weapons by 1. This would not apply to psychic shooting attacks. 4. Psychic Infusion …………………..Warp Charge 1 The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential. Psychic Infusion is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the AP of weapons fired by the psyker's unit are improved by 1.
HQs I’d leave their options the same, but a few of their base prices are too high for what they’re capable of. 125pts- Brother-Captain: 150pts- Brother-Captain Stern: 100pts- Brotherhood Champion: 125pts- Castellan Crowe:
Troops: Strike Squad: Rites of Teleportation a special rule for Strike Squads, but also have it reduce scatter to 1D6.
Elites 100pts – Dreadnought: Add a new piece of Wargear that grants the Dreadnought the option to use Skyfire each shooting phase.
Paladins: At their current price, give them Sanctuary.
Heavy: Purgation Squad: replace Hammerhand Psychic power with the Psychic Infusion power
Dreadknight: Add an Iron Halo as an optional upgrade (20pts).
Promethium Reserve Tanks: as a new option for vehicles with flamer-type weapons that grants the weapons a 6” Torrent. The price could vary by vehicle based on effectiveness or be a per-weapon upgrade. This upgrade would be available to other codexes.
I also would like to add a new special rule that makes the Storm Bolters give Grey Knights an extra attack in close combat like a Pistol would. This would admittedly replace Falchions for the +1 attack. Instead, the Falchions would provide +1 Initiative like the Halberds did in the 5th Edition codex.
Bill, you should re-run the numbers on the Fleshbane profile for my Psilencer proposal; it's actually going to put ~1.11 unsaved wounds on a Wraithknight every turn.
Keep in mind also that the Psycannon is the overall "general purpose" weapon; the Fleshbane/AP2 profile of the Psilencer is intended to combat high-T targets, and 2+ save models. The "primary" mode of the Psilencer having Pinning+S5 is to give it some utility as a general anti-infantry weapon.
Similarly, the Psycannon being S6 gives it some anti-light vehicle utility; GKs are also potentially the most capable army in terms of being able to get at rear-armor facings thanks to Interceptors+DKs.
In both cases the weapons have some more flexible usage- S6 is functional against T6 or less and can be put to use against AV10/11, and even 12 if you're either desperate or swimming in S6 shots. The Psilencer's S5+Pinning and high RoF give it a good chance to force a pinning check, and you can optionally activate Force to kill off multi-wound infantry.
Similarly, Psycannons get Psi-Shock to help combat some of the incredibly broken psychic shenanigans, by forcing auto-Perils on psykers that get shot with it.
Psycannons having a single-shot Haywire profile (shots per turn, mind, not shots per game) is to prevent it from overshadowing more specialized weapons, like the DE Haywire Blaster or Skitarii Arc Rifle, both of which are of lackluster utility outside of their inclusion of the Haywire trait.
Because Psycannons can pose a significant threat to 3+ armor models up to T5- and even some T6/3+ models- they need some drawback in using the Haywire profile.
Also, I disagree with the Promethium Reserve Tanks vehicle wargear. As this is, IMO, mainly pointed at LR Redeemers, I'd argue that it is a simpler option to allow a Redeemer to swap its Flamestorm cannons for Heavy Incinerators instead.
I also feel that rather than giving a blanket "count SBs as a CCW" rule, and then changing Falchions, it would be easier to either:
1) Give the Swords a defensive bonus, to actually differentiate them from the other NFWs 2) If such a rule is implemented, then Falchions should be changed to simply confer +1A as the Falchion-specific special rule.
To Clarify for any other readers, I'm not ignoring Whiskey's comment. I discussed it with him at length in PMs and we resigned ourselves to agree to disagree on most issues. That said, I did like some of his suggestions for the Grey Knights' melee weapons. Specifically:
Nemesis Force Sword: should bestow a 5++ in Close Combat to units without Invulnerable Saves, or +1 to the Invulnerable Saves in Close Combat for units that already have an Invulnerable Save. This only gets crazy with the Brotherhood Champion's re-rollable Invulnerable Save being buffed to 3++, but that wouldn't be game breaking.
Current Version with explanations
Spoiler:
Daemonology (Sanctic): The #4 power should be replaced with one that improves the shooting efficiency of the Psyker’s unit (does not affect Psychic shooting attacks). Purge Soul isn’t useful, and having a power that improves shooting, that Purgation Squads could start out with instead of Hammerhand could make them worth taking. Thus only the Purgation Squads and the occasional non-named HQ generating random Sanctic powers would have access to this shooting buff. 4. Psychic Infusion …………………..Warp Charge 1 The Grey Knights focus their psychic might through their blessed ammunition to increase its deadly potential. Psychic Infusion is a blessing that targets the Psyker. Whilst the power is in effect, the AP of weapons fired by the psyker's unit are improved by 1.
Grey Knight Chapter Tactics: The Aegis Prefered Enemy (Daemons) Psyker Mastery Level 1, with Purity of Spirit These Special Rules apply across the Codex the same way the Space Marines’ Chapter Tactics do. The problem the Grey Knights face with this is that several of their units are charged around 25 points for their Chapter Tactics which should be free (Compare these to the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics if you think they’re too much).
Brother-Captain – 25 = 125 points
Brother-Captain Stern – 25 = 160 points
Dreadnought – 25 = 100 points
Brotherhood Champion – 50 = 100 points Stats & Equipment like the Brother-Captain (also charged for Chapter Tactics), But he suffers from reduced survivability (-1W), reduced shooting (-1BS, and no Special Weapon options), reduced Attacks (-1A), and all he gets back is special rules that only really matter in challenges (additional – 25 points).
Castellan Crowe – 50 = 125 points Most of the same problems as the Brotherhood Champion (still charged for Chapter Tactics), but he has WS8, I6, 3A, but NO AP for general close combatb] Whereas the Brotherhood Champion only shines in challenges, Crowe is only useful at all in Challenges. He’s better in those challenges than a Brotherhood Champion, but the expense of being useful anywhere else completely counter-balances that benefit (additional – 25 points)
[b]Strike Squads need Rites of Teleportation and reduced Deep Strike scatter to be part of their profile. Alpha-strike with Teleport Homers is the only role they could fill, yet they can’t currently do that with any sort of efficiency unless you take a NSF with the Strike Squads and put the Terminators in a CAD, and even then, having full scatter means it is easy for an opponent to deploy to deny the Deep Striking units useful placesto land.
Paladins at their current price need Sanctuary. They are far too expensive relative to their survivability. The plethora of Melta and Plasma in the meta means they often die just as quickly as the generic Terminators, which cost half as much. Sanctuary would help alleviate this problem.
Dreadnoughts need a special rule that allows them to fire at both fliers and ground targets with their full Ballistic Skill. The Grey Knights don’t have any deployable anti-air, and the Dreadnoughts don’t currently perform any function well relative to their cost. Making them anti-air would be perfect. I would also replace their Sanctuary Psychic power with my proposed “Psychic Infusion” power.
Purgation Squads would have my proposed “Psychic Infusion” power instead of Hammerhand. This compounded with fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon would make the Purgation Squads worth taking. As it is, they’re essentially Strike Squads without Deep Strike, being as their Special weapons aren’t worth taking in the current meta.
The Land Raider Redeemer needs some form of Torrent on its sponson weapons. This change would easily justify making its price equal to the other two. This could be achieved by replacing the Flamestorm Cannons with Heavy Incinerators, or by adding an optional upgrade that gives the Flamestorm Cannons some form of Torrent (my suggestion gave it a 6” Torrent). The main difference is that making it a Heavy Incinerator reduces them to AP4, while giving a version of Torrent to the Flamestorm Cannons leaves them at AP3.
All Land Raider Variants should gain the Venerable Special Rule.
[b]Skitarii should be incorporated into the Grey Knights Codex. All of this nonsense with "sub-Codexes" is crap. The Grey Knights and Mechanicus work closely enough to be in the same Codex, and the Scitarii fill the rolls the Grey Knights were deliberately left unable to fill.
Now the big points of contestation…
Special Weapons: The Incinerator is fine, but the Psilencer can’t statistically kill anything of note before it’s wielder is killed, and the Psycannon is a liability instead of a benefit on any unit that’s not Relentless. So my proposed weapons:
Incinerator: Template, S6, AP4, Assault 1, Soulblaze (No change)
Psilencer: 24", S4, AP4, Assault 3, Psychic Tear Psychic Tear: The raw psychic energies being focused through the Psilencer tear flesh and machine as it blasts pieces of them into oblivion. For each Hit a unit takes from this weapon, roll a D6. On a 1, nothing happens. On a 2-5, the unit suffers a single Wound/Glance. On a 6, the Target suffers a single Wound/Penetrating Hit
Psycannon: 36", S7, AP3, Salvo 3/4, Rending
The “Grey Knights Brotherhood” Formation is worthless. Taking it with no upgrades is 2045 points, which is far too big to be used, even if all of the units in it were useful. It would be infinitely better if it were replaced with a Detachment of Formations like the Necrons and Eldar currently have. Please remember with your responses that this is assuming that the other Codexes receive their own Fixes/updates before you make any claims of this being to just buff Grey Knights or being over-powered. (How this Detachment of Formations would work is a big enough topic for its own thread. But here's an idea anyway. Suggestions?)
Detachment Benefits: Brotherhood Commander (re-roll GK specific Warlord Traits table) The Units chosen for this Detachment may re-roll their Perils of the Warp results
Formation A: 1 Mandatory 1 Grandmaster (upgraded from a Brother-Captain) 1 Brother-Captain (may not be upgraded into a Grandmaster) 1 Brotherhood Champion. Benefit: +1 to their Invulnerable Saves.
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I won't use that rank b******* ever again honestly... solo-ing almost an entire army of 
crap like the previous codex's issues with unfairly picking on Daemons & Psykers in general.
emons would be not quite enough, I think. But ML1, even on its own, is far too much to just be 
, I was being pretty myopic when posting that and was thinking about what my 
