So, word is out that Tau vs. SM will be a fall release box set. That likely means a Tau codex in August or September, with a Space Marines release in early Novemver to maximize revenue from the holiday buying spree.

So let's predict and wishlist a little bit!

Try to separate your predictions into nerfs and buffs; here are mine:

Nerfs:
-Early Warning Override will go up in cost by 300-400%
-Riptides will go up in cost 10-15%
-Signature Systems will be limited to 1-2 selections per suit (bye bye buff commander)
-High-yield Missile Pods on Broadsides will be a 10-15 points upgrade (Railguns for free)

Buffs:
-Firewarriors will be reduced in cost by 1 point
-Hammerheads will be reduced in cost by 10-15 points
-Devilfish will be 5 points cheaper
-Stealth suits will experience a 10 point reduction
-Tau will receive wargear that gives them nominal Psychic Defense (probably on Ethereals)

Wishlist:
-Railguns on Broadsides to return to S10
-A new flier (that's good)
-A new Crisis Suit model (this is in fact rumored)
-None of the nerfs above coming into effect

I fancy some Gue'Vesa

Nerf: Markerlights go back to one markerlight per point of cover save removed

Buff: Firewarriors can take rail/ion rifles as specialist weapons like Pathfinders

Wishlist: Formations for Piranhas, Hammerheads, Stealth Suits

I actually liked the idea where they swapped the ion accelerator from the riptide with the ion cannon on the hammerhead platform. That way you don't really need to jack up the price of the riptide as much since now he's limited to AP3 blasts at most whereas the Hammerhead has an actual chance in competing against Broadsides by providing S8 AP2 large blasts and not just having to default to a railgun. It would also make Longstrike that much nastier.

Also, to show that the Tau are starting to streamline some of their more experimental weaponry into their main forces, a new kit of Fire Warriors with possible upgrades to include ion and rail rilfes wouldn't be half bad. It would allow them some variety in troop choice options besides a bonding knife via their Sha'sui.

Good point about formations, what formations do people think Tau will get? For which units? With which accompanying rules?

Apart for the bonkers Markerlights=no cover save and maybe the Overwatch assistance, i don't have much of a beef Vs Taus.

IMO it doesn't need to be nerfed more then that, well maybe the Sun filters..., because it makes a whole lot of units that use Blind rule fething useless, like maybe change it for a reroll on the test.

Wishlist: add GLORIOUS CLOSE COMBAT for suits

Why would you go through the bother of building a giant robot without having it punching stuff?

Only half kidding

 Grimdark wrote:
Wishlist: add GLORIOUS CLOSE COMBAT for suits

Why would you go through the bother of building a giant robot without having it punching stuff?

Only half kidding

Moving Onager Gauntlets from Signature to Support systems could accomplish this. Essentially a hidden powerfist. They'd have to raise the points by 400-500% though to make it fair. Although, it would be WS2 lol.

To be able to play Kroot as a completely independant army, and flesh out the auxiliaries a bit.

They're meant to have assimilated a bunch of races afterall, might aswell make them unique.

 winnertakesall wrote:
To be able to play Kroot as a completely independant army, and flesh out the auxiliaries a bit.

They're meant to have assimilated a bunch of races afterall, might aswell make them unique.

This is indeed rumored. No release estimate yet. Apparently models are in the works but I wouldn't expect them before Spring 2016 at the earliest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shrike wrote:

 winnertakesall wrote:
To be able to play Kroot as a completely independant army, and flesh out the auxiliaries a bit.

They're meant to have assimilated a bunch of races afterall, might aswell make them unique.

This is indeed rumored. No release estimate yet. Apparently models are in the works but I wouldn't expect the codex before Spring 2016 at the earliest.

Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

I love how everyone whines so much about marker lights. Any competent player can easily eliminate all tau marker lights in 1-2 turns. Pathfinders and drones die very easily. And it is not like using marker lights is a free upgrade tau get. You have to pay for entire squads (that die easily) to be able to have marker lights.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

I love how everyone whines so much about marker lights. Any competent player can easily eliminate all tau marker lights in 1-2 turns. Pathfinders and drones die very easily. And it is not like using marker lights is a free upgrade tau get. You have to pay for entire squads (that die easily) to be able to have marker lights.

I agree that complaints are unfounded; but at the same time no competent Tau player would have such flimsy marker support that it could be eliminated in two turns. At tournaments you will rarely see any Pathfinders at all (hopefully they go down in points). You'll see Mark'os tanking for drones in Crisis squads; you'll see Skyrays, you'll see Tetras where FW is allowed. Et cetera.

Do Riptides really need nerfing any more? They're a hard counter with EWO to deep-striking heavy infantry/drop pods, but with all the flyrants, knights, wraithknights, gorka/morkanauts, and so forth that have come out since the riptide appeared, is it really still considered OP?

office_waaagh wrote:
Do Riptides really need nerfing any more? They're a hard counter with EWO to deep-striking heavy infantry/drop pods, but with all the flyrants, knights, wraithknights, gorka/morkanauts, and so forth that have come out since the riptide appeared, is it really still considered OP?

No, not at all. But GW does not exist in the competitive meta where there are things much worse than Riptides. In fact, the design team has proven they exist in a world much closer to Neck Beard Nerd Rage than measured balance assessment.

They've actually been doing a decent job with the 7th ed releases. But until they prove otherwise, I still expect them to nerf things that a certain sect of people view as OP.

Right off the bat MSS, PeNchip, C&C node all get nerfed into the dirt. And most likely fire support as well. Along with good odds that marker drones wont be available in squadrons.

Basically expect GW to throw the army in the dumpster, if they come out anything but meh I'll be surprised considering they killed 40k for a lot of people.

The advanced stabilisation system option.
New crisis all the way.
D strength hammerhead rail
Strength 10 broadside rail
Broadsides should be T5
Shield drone with sworn protector (take the hit).
Do something with the riptide so people can stop moaning
Do something with marker lights so people can stop moaning
Make stealth suits have some form of cloaking/invisibility (like they used to have)
Fix the flyers
New firewarriors (weapon options would be nice too)
Point adjustments

Nothing else really.
I think the codex is fairly good. Problem units are well known and mainly these need adjusting.

My bets are on the following:
Nerf the riptide because it's already sold well so we want to promote...
Buffed crisis suits because they'll have new models and will be the 'new hotness' to make massive sales.
Make the flyer better because it didn't sell too well last time.
Make new firewarriors with new options because they're a staple.
Maybe some new unit (probably a crisis variant)

 The Shrike wrote:

office_waaagh wrote:
Do Riptides really need nerfing any more? They're a hard counter with EWO to deep-striking heavy infantry/drop pods, but with all the flyrants, knights, wraithknights, gorka/morkanauts, and so forth that have come out since the riptide appeared, is it really still considered OP?

No, not at all. But GW does not exist in the competitive meta where there are things much worse than Riptides. In fact, the design team has proven they exist in a world much closer to Neck Beard Nerd Rage than measured balance assessment.

They've actually been doing a decent job with the 7th ed releases. But until they prove otherwise, I still expect them to nerf things that a certain sect of people view as OP.

I think if that were literally true they'd have beat the Eldar to death with the nerf bat a while ago. In all honesty they've been pretty good lately I think; nothing got nerfed too hard in the Ork codex except Mob Rule (which was a well-intentioned misfire). The Necrons lost some of their more ridiculous 5ed era nonsense (good riddance to old MSS) but nothing really got nerfed. The Grey Knights lost a bunch of options but they just got moved to the inquisition dex, and their goofy-looking dreadknights are as nasty as ever.

I'd like to see a LOW gargantuan monstrous creature battlesuit show up. More options for riptide. Ability to give more dudes markerlights in FW squads without having to upgrade the Shas-ui so they can direct seeker missiles against targets they can't handle themselves. On that note, cheaper seeker missiles. Some sort of jetbike. Cheaper pathfinders with stealth. Give stealth suits markerlights. Change pinpoint to twin-linked rather than +1 BS for each token spent. Add a precision shots ability to the markerlight table.

What I expect to see happen

-Ion Accelerator becomes a 15-25 point upgrade. Doing this is basically fix the only issue with Riptides.
-HYMP becomes a 10 point per model upgrade.
-Stealth Suits get a points reduction.
-Hammerheads get a point reduction.
-Farsight becomes a Lord of War, with some necessary buffs and points increase (eternal warrior, IWND, etc).
-Serious overhaul of the Tau flyers.
-Change to Markerlights so that 1 Markerlight = -1 cover save, rather than 2 Markerlights = Ignore Cover.


What I want to see happen

-Broadsides get T5. Seriously, the model is the size of a Dreadnought, but is somehow only T4? It makes no sense that models a quarter of it's size are somehow tougher than it.
-Broadsides get Slow and Purposeful. Yes they'd be able to move and shoot, but no overwatch, including supporting fire. (I'd rather get Relentless, but that'd probably be too good).
-Cadre Fireblades get a buff to make them worth taking. Perhaps armywide buff to non battlesuit units or access to certain signature systems?
-New Troop unit, possibly Gue'Vesa? (Particularly needed if the Kroot codex happens and Kroot are taken out of Tau).
-Fire Warriors gain access to Ion Rifles and Rail Rifles. They are wasted on Pathfinders as it is.
-Stealth Suits get moved to Fast Attack. It doesn't matter what you do with them, without nerfing Crisis Suits and Riptides into oblivion there is simply no reason to take them in an elite slot.
-Pathfinders get a points reduction. 11 ppm is just too much without something like stealth to make them a bit more survivable.
-Fix Vespids. Don't care how, just do it.
-Make Heavy Rail Rifles worth taking. Maybe give them Lance? That way they become useful again without overshadowing the Hammerhead.
-Close. Combat. Battlesuits. Seriously, make it happen.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Right off the bat MSS, PeNchip, C&C node all get nerfed into the dirt. And most likely fire support as well. Along with good odds that marker drones wont be available in squadrons.

Basically expect GW to throw the army in the dumpster, if they come out anything but meh I'll be surprised considering they killed 40k for a lot of people.

This is just plain harsh. Tau may as well be removed from the game then.
Let's make them so bad that Tau players suffer. That's progressive thinking.

Thematically i could see a sort of small-ish exosuit with a katana or double blade like weapon, would make the models on par with Marines stat wise with rendering blades and mobility?

Would be an elite unit and they could be taken has bodyguards for an Ethearal, with some kind of pulse pistol/armwrist gun, would look like this;



But with Tau colour scheme of course.

 The Shrike wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

I love how everyone whines so much about marker lights. Any competent player can easily eliminate all tau marker lights in 1-2 turns. Pathfinders and drones die very easily. And it is not like using marker lights is a free upgrade tau get. You have to pay for entire squads (that die easily) to be able to have marker lights.

I agree that complaints are unfounded; but at the same time no competent Tau player would have such flimsy marker support that it could be eliminated in two turns. At tournaments you will rarely see any Pathfinders at all (hopefully they go down in points). You'll see Mark'os tanking for drones in Crisis squads; you'll see Skyrays, you'll see Tetras where FW is allowed. Et cetera.

It's not the weak platforms or anything, I'm saying that they should work how they used to. For each one used, +1 BS, and you can use one to lower their cover save by 1. Using 2 to outright ignore cover with whatever you want is a bit much.

Otherwise, Tau seem pretty solid to me, other than needing better fliers and Vespid need something as well.

I'd expext buffs will come to models receiving new kits.

If they make a new Crisis kit expect them to be good enough so people will actually want to field 9 of them and 9 Riptides.

Boniface wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Right off the bat MSS, PeNchip, C&C node all get nerfed into the dirt. And most likely fire support as well. Along with good odds that marker drones wont be available in squadrons.

Basically expect GW to throw the army in the dumpster, if they come out anything but meh I'll be surprised considering they killed 40k for a lot of people.

This is just plain harsh. Tau may as well be removed from the game then.
Let's make them so bad that Tau players suffer. That's progressive thinking.

Its happened before, and GW is rarely subtle when it comes to balancing things in the opposite direction. The next tau dex will have all of its relics taken away which crushes a lot of builds that revolve around the buffmander.

I wouldn't be sure. Based on huge sales of tau last time round (reportedly) I would imagine they'll eek a bit more out yet.

Boniface wrote:
Let's make them so bad that Tau players suffer. That's progressive thinking.

Ravenous D does have a point, GW isn't exactly "subtle" when it comes to this kind of thing. It isn't just people wanting to "punish" Tau players or wanting us to suffer (although those people are out there and they are idiots), GW is really just that fething awful at game balance.

 The Shrike wrote:

office_waaagh wrote:
Do Riptides really need nerfing any more? They're a hard counter with EWO to deep-striking heavy infantry/drop pods, but with all the flyrants, knights, wraithknights, gorka/morkanauts, and so forth that have come out since the riptide appeared, is it really still considered OP?

No, not at all. But GW does not exist in the competitive meta where there are things much worse than Riptides. In fact, the design team has proven they exist in a world much closer to Neck Beard Nerd Rage than measured balance assessment.

They've actually been doing a decent job with the 7th ed releases. But until they prove otherwise, I still expect them to nerf things that a certain sect of people view as OP.

Because of how slow codex updates used to be in the past, with most armies even having to skip an entire edition (other than Marines or Tyranids), it's pretty common for GW to get around to "fixing" something only after it's stopped being a problem in the first place.

The safe bet is to expect GW to nerf it into the ground anyway because people used to complain about it a lot. But GW is especially unpredictable nowadays so who knows anymore.

Two predictions...

1. Prepare to build an army using formations within formations.
2. The core formation will require Piranha's.

 Ravenous D wrote:

Boniface wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Right off the bat MSS, PeNchip, C&C node all get nerfed into the dirt. And most likely fire support as well. Along with good odds that marker drones wont be available in squadrons.

Basically expect GW to throw the army in the dumpster, if they come out anything but meh I'll be surprised considering they killed 40k for a lot of people.

This is just plain harsh. Tau may as well be removed from the game then.
Let's make them so bad that Tau players suffer. That's progressive thinking.

Its happened before, and GW is rarely subtle when it comes to balancing things in the opposite direction. The next tau dex will have all of its relics taken away which crushes a lot of builds that revolve around the buffmander.

And in return Tau will get an awesome formation like the Decurion that will make everyone rage :p

To be fair with GW you can never know They're so bad at game balance that we might end up with the new FotM codex, a big pile of gak or anything in between.

I was under the impression the codex rumors came from a snark post on the Lord of War facebook page or whatever. Is this actually going down?

If any HQ would become LoW, it would be Aun'Va.

I don't think a new codex is coming at all. Just like Tyranids - new formations in a campaign book. Maybe some new units.

I do fully expect a Kroot mini-codex, though. And new models for Crisis and Commander.

 oni wrote:
Two predictions...

1. Prepare to build an army using formations within formations.
2. The core formation will require Piranha's.

But piranhas are good. Now, if the core formation requires pathfinders, vespids or stealth suits...

LordBlades wrote:


And in return Tau will get an awesome formation like the Decurion that will make everyone rage :p

To be fair with GW you can never know They're so bad at game balance that we might end up with the new FotM codex, a big pile of gak or anything in between.

Decurion only works if you are in a group that lets someone take dozens of formations as an army and lets be real, its basically unbound BS at that point and no one wants that.

All this is is GW pushing formations down your throat until you just except it, and look at where the state of the game is because of that attitude.

 Ravenous D wrote:

LordBlades wrote:


And in return Tau will get an awesome formation like the Decurion that will make everyone rage :p

To be fair with GW you can never know They're so bad at game balance that we might end up with the new FotM codex, a big pile of gak or anything in between.

Decurion only works if you are in a group that lets someone take dozens of formations as an army and lets be real, its basically unbound BS at that point and no one wants that.

All this is is GW pushing formations down your throat until you just except it, and look at where the state of the game is because of that attitude.

I think you greatly underestimate the number of people that accept formations/ special detachments.

Obviously I can only talk about my group, which is pretty much 'anything but.unbound and no FW proxies for events', but I've seen way more forum posts about groups that don't accept unbound than about groups that don't accept formations.

To be realistic, detachments like the Decurion are thevway this game is going forward, like it or not. Sooner or later people will.have to accept it.

 Vector Strike wrote:


I don't think a new codex is coming at all. Just like Tyranids - new formations in a campaign book. Maybe some new units.

The entire Necron codex was technically just a list of data slates. The game is moving into an arena where the FOC is irrelevant. Another relic is this idea that there won't be a codex because there was just one a few years ago. The major books remaining to be updated for 7th are Daemons, CSM, DA, Tau, SM and Eldar. There is an excellent chance that five of six are DONE by year's end.

The July box set is rumored to be "Chaos" vs. DA. It's entirely plausible that all three of those codices release before August. GW isn't going to run out of content to push out because Chaos alone will likely be split into cult variants, in addition to Kroot Mercs and AdMech type releases. It's just going to keep expanding.

 The Shrike wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:


I don't think a new codex is coming at all. Just like Tyranids - new formations in a campaign book. Maybe some new units.

The entire Necron codex was technically just a list of data slates. The game is moving into an arena where the FOC is irrelevant. Another relic is this idea that there won't be a codex because there was just one a few years ago. The major books remaining to be updated for 7th are Daemons, CSM, DA, Tau, SM and Eldar. There is an excellent chance that five of six are DONE by year's end.

The July box set is rumored to be "Chaos" vs. DA. It's entirely plausible that all three of those codices release before August. GW isn't going to run out of content to push out because Chaos alone will likely be split into cult variants, in addition to Kroot Mercs and AdMech type releases. It's just going to keep expanding.

I'd love to receive a new codex, but... Tyranids' is 6th like ours and Shield of Ball didn't bring a new codex for them. That's why I' not expecting a full-fledged book.

Still, I'd love as well to get the Necron treatment. Hunter Cadre Formation ftw (War Zone Damocles' Hunter Cadre formation could be a source for ours)

Nerfs to the Riptide, and make rail weapons a thing again. The HYMP is too much of a no-brainer.

I'd like to just see flyers that aren't as ugly as gak... Most everything else I'm okay with, but those flyers!

The horror, the horror...

1. Jet pack equipped ethereal
2. Lance for Rail Weapons
3. Deep Striking Skimmers
4. Price increase for Ion Accelerator
5. Swap Prices for EWO and Vector Tracker.

6. Riptides moved to LoW with similar deployment like lictors (can take up to 3, can deploy seperately)
7. Fusion Blades made standard equipment.

The biggest problem about moving the Riptide to a LoW is that GW didn't do it to the Dreadknight so it would be extremely unfair if 2/3 (Riptide and Wraithknight) of the uber MCs get turned into LoWs yet the biggest offender (IMO) stays as a heavy support choice.

However I do think that all three should be LoWs.

If anyone is going to be made a LoW it will be Farsight. He'll get better and more expensive. It just follows the trend of Calgar, Imotekh, Ghazzghull et cetera. They seem to be redefining LoW not as some huge MC/vehicle but as a named character commander of a sizable portion of specific races.

 The Shrike wrote:
If anyone is going to be made a LoW it will be Farsight. He'll get better and more expensive. It just follows the trend of Calgar, Imotekh, Ghazzghull et cetera. They seem to be redefining LoW not as some huge MC/vehicle but as a named character commander of a sizable portion of specific races.

But why Farsight when Aun'Va is more important and is not a rebel?

 carldooley wrote:

6. Riptides moved to LoW with similar deployment like lictors (can take up to 3, can deploy seperately)

You make me sad. Stop making me sad.

Came into question today at my FLGS, since the new Tau Codex is coming out there may be a chance that the Farsight Enclave Supplement will become invalid. If that happens what do you think will happen, will the Farsight Enclaves become a Formation? Or are they more likely to just FAQ the current book?

Why would it become invalid? o.O

-Bring back Multi-tracker and Target Lock for the vehicles
-nerf the Riptide stats-wise, switch Ionhead and Riptide Ion cannon stats.
-Make Multi-tracker an optional wargear for the Battlesuits, so the Suit armoury actually becomes interesting again
-Make the Kroot S4 again, or at least make Kroot Rifle to give extra attack like in the past
-remove the Markerlight's ability to boost other Markerlights

Backfire wrote:
-Make Multi-tracker an optional wargear for the Battlesuits, so the Suit armoury actually becomes interesting again

People will still buy it, as they did with the previous codex. Being able to fire 2 weapons is an advantage too good to let it pass.

Kroot Shaman. Make the psychic phase not a dead phase for the Tau book.

Why not make both Farsight and Aun'va Lords of Wars in their own respective Codex/Supplement?
Maybe even make it so Farsight can only be taken from the supplement while they are at it, and it would be a better fit all round.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Backfire wrote:
-Make Multi-tracker an optional wargear for the Battlesuits, so the Suit armoury actually becomes interesting again

People will still buy it, as they did with the previous codex. Being able to fire 2 weapons is an advantage too good to let it pass.

Well, not always as you had to choose between Targeting array and Multi-tracker. Sometimes TA was a better choice depending on what you wanted from your suits.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

I love how everyone whines so much about marker lights. Any competent player can easily eliminate all tau marker lights in 1-2 turns. Pathfinders and drones die very easily. And it is not like using marker lights is a free upgrade tau get. You have to pay for entire squads (that die easily) to be able to have marker lights.

Except it's not as easy as you make it out to be. The range on markerlights is larger than most standard guns and unlike Tau it's not easy to get ignores cover on every weapon imaginable in the codex.

The ignores cover part should be removed from marker lights. It's just a gakky rule, how in gods name does shining a laserpointer at my units suddenly remove their cover? It provides targettig data, which should give other Tau an easier aim at their targets, not make them able to bend bullets around corners.

Give them guaranteed precision shots on hit when spending 2 or more markerlights to increase BS but for god's sake gove me my cover.

DaPino wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

I love how everyone whines so much about marker lights. Any competent player can easily eliminate all tau marker lights in 1-2 turns. Pathfinders and drones die very easily. And it is not like using marker lights is a free upgrade tau get. You have to pay for entire squads (that die easily) to be able to have marker lights.

Except it's not as easy as you make it out to be. The range on markerlights is larger than most standard guns and unlike Tau it's not easy to get ignores cover on every weapon imaginable in the codex.

The ignores cover part should be removed from marker lights. It's just a gakky rule, how in gods name does shining a laserpointer at my units suddenly remove their cover? It provides targettig data, which should give other Tau an easier aim at their targets, not make them able to bend bullets around corners.

Give them guaranteed precision shots on hit when spending 2 or more markerlights to increase BS but for god's sake gove me my cover.

If Ignore Cover goes away from Markerlights, the Perfect Timing should go as well.

JinxDragon wrote:Why not make both Farsight and Aun'va Lords of Wars in their own respective Codex/Supplement?

That's a better idea. Why not both? is always the better idea!

Backfire wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Backfire wrote:
-Make Multi-tracker an optional wargear for the Battlesuits, so the Suit armoury actually becomes interesting again

People will still buy it, as they did with the previous codex. Being able to fire 2 weapons is an advantage too good to let it pass.

Well, not always as you had to choose between Targeting array and Multi-tracker. Sometimes TA was a better choice depending on what you wanted from your suits.

Care to enlighten me on how having 1 weapon at BS4 is better than 2 weapons at BS3? Mathhammer doesn't agree with you.

DaPino wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

I love how everyone whines so much about marker lights. Any competent player can easily eliminate all tau marker lights in 1-2 turns. Pathfinders and drones die very easily. And it is not like using marker lights is a free upgrade tau get. You have to pay for entire squads (that die easily) to be able to have marker lights.

Except it's not as easy as you make it out to be. The range on markerlights is larger than most standard guns and unlike Tau it's not easy to get ignores cover on every weapon imaginable in the codex.

The ignores cover part should be removed from marker lights. It's just a gakky rule, how in gods name does shining a laserpointer at my units suddenly remove their cover? It provides targettig data, which should give other Tau an easier aim at their targets, not make them able to bend bullets around corners.

Give them guaranteed precision shots on hit when spending 2 or more markerlights to increase BS but for god's sake gove me my cover.

This will never happen. Since their inception, markerlights (including their ability to remove cover) have been central to the Tau aesthetic and style of play. Very rarely does GW alter mechanics like that. Now, it may change (like We'll Be Back evolving into Reanimation Protocol) but it almost certainly won't be removed. Personally, I'd be fine with returning to the previous mechanic where 1 markerlight removes 1 point of cover save. That way I need substantially more lights to remove cover from a ruin et al. But you're swimming in an ocean of self-delusion if you think markerlights will lose that ability.

I don't complain about ATSKNF, or Reanimation Protocols (or not having a freakin' psychic phase or any psychic defense!) so stop complaining about my army's chief mechanic.

My Wishlist:
Stealth Suits get a large break in points

FW Shas'ui + ML/TL goes down in points

Pulse Carbines fire their profile + Photon Grenade-ish shot

Pathfinder teams can take Marksmen (bs3, precision), or Sharpshooters (bs4, precision) on a per-model basis

Rail Weapons become Ordinance

Railhead goes a little down in points

MarkerLights:
-Scour becomes -1 cover per Marker expended
-Add:
--One *model* gets +1 Precision per ML expended
--Spend one ML on both the primary target and secondary, one model gets Target Lock, and shoots at the secondary target

Signature Systems become 1 per model, even for Commander

Crisis Suits - Buying a second weapon of the same type is +5points on top of cost

Missile sides - drop the ROF

Riptide - Walker

Alternately for Broadsides/riptides:
Become t5 3+ and t6 3+ respectively.

 The Shrike wrote:
I don't complain about ATSKNF, or Reanimation Protocols (or not having a freakin' psychic phase or any psychic defense!) so stop complaining about my army's chief mechanic.

Right. How dare he complain about something. I mean all mechanics are equal in power aren't they? So how could someone possibly have the audacity to think they are allowed to complain about markerlights?

I mean I don't complain about Apple employees in factories in China having steady jobs, how dare they complain about my freedom?

/sarcasm

Point being you can't discredit someone's opinion because you don't agree with it.

Do people complain about orders? No, ebenthough they are far superior in every way to markerlights (and IG also have psykers).

Meh. I don't think that GW will change anything but copy-paste the 6th codex so that they can get their money fast and easy.

The only three things that might happen are:
- Riptide nerfed slightly, probably through the Nova Reactor special rule (big nerf to movement/invu boost).
- The fliers become cheaper (gotta' sell those models).
- Decurion-style formation system based on FW cadres.

SGTPozy wrote:
Do people complain about orders? No, ebenthough they are far superior in every way to markerlights (and IG also have psykers).

Dude I'm not arguing with you. You're way too stubborn (which is admirable in a way) for me to convince you either way. I don't agree with your opinion and that's okay.

Regardless I'm simply saying that he is entitled to his opinion- and if he wants to complain about something he has every right to without fear of being ganged up on and lambasted.

Just like you have the right to complain about Imperium armies, he has the right to complain about markerlights.

 Ignatius wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Do people complain about orders? No, ebenthough they are far superior in every way to markerlights (and IG also have psykers).

Dude I'm not arguing with you. You're way too stubborn (which is admirable in a way) for me to convince you either way. I don't agree with your opinion and that's okay.

Regardless I'm simply saying that he is entitled to his opinion- and if he wants to complain about something he has every right to without fear of being ganged up on and lambasted.

Just like you have the right to complain about Imperium armies, he has the right to complain about markerlights.

Fair enough. It's always tough to try to communicate tone through text. My point wasn't to grill the guy. I just don't understand the point of questioning the existence of markerlights in the Tau army. They're central to the style of the army and always have been. I referenced those other special rules because they ARE as powerful as ignoring cover and come base without paying for models that actually have to exercise the rule. I would never go into an SM codex thread and say, "Man I wish those guys would lose ATSKNF" or the Newcron tactics thread and say, "This RP stuff is BS! Army-wiode FNP! And the most popular formation has 4+ FNP?!" I wouldn't do that because there isn't any point. I move right to "how do I fight it; and how do I mitigate it?"

I see too many similar lists put forth changing core mechanics, specifically targeting a single Unit, or promoting changes which make no sense to the Codex as an over-all whole. Many such lists make me wonder if their authors are targeting a single Unit, or combination of war-gear/tactics, that they personally do not like going up against. This is always more telling when it comes to the Tau, who really just need a point tweaking to balance them more against other armies then some core-internal changes.

The Tau's modular nature, great internal symmetry with each other and flexibility in tactical decisions is what drew me to them in the first place. The only way the Codex could be made better is if the Authors forced us to make more of those tactical decisions when it comes to list building, forcing us to take moments of consideration when putting together a Units load-out. "Do I want to take the anti-tank load out, or should we be focusing anti-infantry with this Broadside team..." is a question we should be seriously asking instead of wondering why we are being given an obvious choice.

That is why I honestly believe the Tau need only the following changes to be a better Army over-all:
1) Re-evaluate the point cost of everything, this is more to balance against external armies
2) Add a Rule to the Rail weapons to cement their anti-vehicle nature, others have suggested Lance which does seem an obvious fit

There are still a great deal many good ideas of others that should be considered for a new Codex: Lord of War slots, additional Models to be added, and maybe a few number changes here that do not alter core mechanics but round out the models a little better. I have not included them, though I will underline the 'swap the Accelerator and Cannon' idea from Grimskul as it is brilliant, because others have already mentioned them or they are guaranteed changes in any case. Expect the usual additions to be added to the Supplement and Codex when it is released, though there is the possibility we will not get a new Codex till 8th Edition.

For example:
I predict a new Formation... not really a compelling predictoin with how 7th is structured

LordBlades wrote:

DaPino wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

I love how everyone whines so much about marker lights. Any competent player can easily eliminate all tau marker lights in 1-2 turns. Pathfinders and drones die very easily. And it is not like using marker lights is a free upgrade tau get. You have to pay for entire squads (that die easily) to be able to have marker lights.

Except it's not as easy as you make it out to be. The range on markerlights is larger than most standard guns and unlike Tau it's not easy to get ignores cover on every weapon imaginable in the codex.

The ignores cover part should be removed from marker lights. It's just a gakky rule, how in gods name does shining a laserpointer at my units suddenly remove their cover? It provides targettig data, which should give other Tau an easier aim at their targets, not make them able to bend bullets around corners.

Give them guaranteed precision shots on hit when spending 2 or more markerlights to increase BS but for god's sake gove me my cover.

If Ignore Cover goes away from Markerlights, the Perfect Timing should go as well.

Well.... no

Perfect timing is a divination power that lets you predict when an enemy will get out of cover (for instance to shoot).
Markerlights are not that. They are tools that provide additional targeting information by shining them at an enemy.

Something that I'd even rather have (even though it's possibly even stronger) is that marker lights allowed for other Tau units to be able to shoot without line of sight because it makes more sense for them to do so. They could provide enemy locations to enemies not in their line of sight by sending them information to their optics devices. What they cannot do however, is prevent the large building my models are sitting in from being there.

The Codex ends up being a faction codex. 80 pgs.

I tell you what Tau as an army come in for a lot of hate.

I find this weird as the biggest offender are much worse in every regard.

Two things I fully expect:
- Markerlights will be reworked to minimize book keeping
- The number of support systems will be drastically reduced

Both would be consistent with GW's actions in recent codex releases.

I would be happy with some bumps to unit and equipment costs, a nerf to the special rules breaking equipment, and a nerf to the markerlight's ignore cover ability. Oh, and making their never-taken units not suck (fliers, for one).

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Two things I fully expect:
- Markerlights will be reworked to minimize book keeping
- The number of support systems will be drastically reduced

Both would be consistent with GW's actions in recent codex releases.

I'm totally fine with markerlights returning to a 1 per cover save type thing. 100% cool with it; always thought the 2 = ignores cover was a bit much.

However, it'd be a real shame if they minimized the wargear section. It gives a lot of character. I always loved the old CSM 3.5 codex for example; so much character, so many options (and I didn't even play them). I'm not saying it's unlikely, simplification is certainly their trend, but what a shame.

I DO think the Buffmander is a goner. Either CnC and MSSS will disappear or they'll limit signature systems to one per suit (or maybe even 1 per detachment).

I'd like Stealth Suits to only be hit via Snapshots but that might be a bit too much. It would make them attractive compared to 2x Burst Crisis Suits.

Markerlights to 1 = -1 to cover save. Or 3/4 to remove cover so it's a considerable expenditure to remove them. Ideally -1 to cover save per ML.

Riptide IA points increase.
HYMP points increase but S10 Rail Rifles and Broadsides get stabilization tech (either free or purchased) so Relentless (or Slow and Purposeful).
EWO points increase by 100% or so.

Vespids to become viable! Codex Flyers to become viable!

I just want a internally well-balanced...followed swiftly by a revamp of the Eldar Codex

I like your invisible Stealth Suit idea. Their damage output is still terrible and not being able to upgrade them all to fusion is annoying. I think if you lowered them to 25 per, made them invisible and allowed them to upgrade to 1 fusion gun each for 10p each, that would be ideal. Then we can have a conversation about their merits vs. Crisis. 35p; invisible, but with T3 and BS3 fusion.

As for Broadsides, I want T5. It only makes sense. Stealths are T3, Crisis T4, Riptides T6...so Broadsides should fit nicely in there at T5. I'd up them to 75 base for that. They should be Slow and Purposeful anyway. Losing overwatch hurts so no points increase for that. Finally, if HRRs return to S10, that would make them competitive; especially if you make HYMP a 10 point upgrade. My only problem then is SMS doesn't synergize with HRRs. C'est la vie.

Man, TL S10 HRRs with a PENchip and some marker support? Wave Serpents, yummy in my tummy.

 The Shrike wrote:
So, word is out that Tau vs. SM will be a fall release box set. That likely means a Tau codex in August or September, with a Space Marines release in early Novemver to maximize revenue from the holiday buying spree.

So let's predict and wishlist a little bit!

Try to separate your predictions into nerfs and buffs; here are mine:

Nerfs:
-Early Warning Override will go up in cost by 300-400%
-Riptides will go up in cost 10-15%
-Signature Systems will be limited to 1-2 selections per suit (bye bye buff commander)
-High-yield Missile Pods on Broadsides will be a 10-15 points upgrade (Railguns for free)

Buffs:
-Firewarriors will be reduced in cost by 1 point
-Hammerheads will be reduced in cost by 10-15 points
-Devilfish will be 5 points cheaper
-Stealth suits will experience a 10 point reduction
-Tau will receive wargear that gives them nominal Psychic Defense (probably on Ethereals)

Wishlist:
-Railguns on Broadsides to return to S10
-A new flier (that's good)
-A new Crisis Suit model (this is in fact rumored)
-None of the nerfs above coming into effect

In a world with Knights and freaking Decurions, we're crying about a 200 point commander that doesnt do damage and an interceptor ability that stops the Tau from being overrun by round two by the lowly Dark Angels.

psh.

and then you think Fire Warriors need to be cheaper (they dont) and hammereads to be cheaper? the only thing I agreed on here was the stealthsuits MIGHT need a LITTLE reduction but not ten points.

And you dont like the flyers? Have you used them in a list built to support them?

Well I know one thing. Gamers will literally never be content with any coex no matter what. No wonder GW never listens.

 Jancoran wrote:
And you dont like the flyers? Have you used them in a list built to support them?

what is a list built to support a flier? I have a Razorshark(?) - the one with the quad ion turret & Missile Pod. Anyone else notice that all the weapons are on gimbals, and can target in any direction? I use it to kill things that still have markerlight tokens on them that haven't been completely wiped out. What do you use yours with\for?

DaPino wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

DaPino wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Make markerlights go back to what they were before the 6th edtion codex.

I love how everyone whines so much about marker lights. Any competent player can easily eliminate all tau marker lights in 1-2 turns. Pathfinders and drones die very easily. And it is not like using marker lights is a free upgrade tau get. You have to pay for entire squads (that die easily) to be able to have marker lights.

Except it's not as easy as you make it out to be. The range on markerlights is larger than most standard guns and unlike Tau it's not easy to get ignores cover on every weapon imaginable in the codex.

The ignores cover part should be removed from marker lights. It's just a gakky rule, how in gods name does shining a laserpointer at my units suddenly remove their cover? It provides targettig data, which should give other Tau an easier aim at their targets, not make them able to bend bullets around corners.

Give them guaranteed precision shots on hit when spending 2 or more markerlights to increase BS but for god's sake gove me my cover.

If Ignore Cover goes away from Markerlights, the Perfect Timing should go as well.

Well.... no

Perfect timing is a divination power that lets you predict when an enemy will get out of cover (for instance to shoot).
Markerlights are not that. They are tools that provide additional targeting information by shining them at an enemy.

Something that I'd even rather have (even though it's possibly even stronger) is that marker lights allowed for other Tau units to be able to shoot without line of sight because it makes more sense for them to do so. They could provide enemy locations to enemies not in their line of sight by sending them information to their optics devices. What they cannot do however, is prevent the large building my models are sitting in from being there.

if you're going to apply logic to cover cover, it should be done to.IoM as wwell.

Perfect timing also removes buildings, since it also Ignores Cover of stuff like hull-dowm tanks or units that have.gone to ground, things which are definitely not weaving in and out of cover

 Jancoran wrote:

In a world with Knights and freaking Decurions, we're crying about a 200 point commander that doesnt do damage and an interceptor ability that stops the Tau from being overrun by round two by the lowly Dark Angels.

psh.

and then you think Fire Warriors need to be cheaper (they dont) and hammereads to be cheaper? the only thing I agreed on here was the stealthsuits MIGHT need a LITTLE reduction but not ten points.

And you dont like the flyers? Have you used them in a list built to support them?

Well I know one thing. Gamers will literally never be content with any coex no matter what. No wonder GW never listens.

The base hammerhead is somewhat lackluster, so either a small buff or a drop in price would fix that. Stealth suits are definitly overpriced, ten points sounds about right for the way they are now. against anything other than AP3-1, they die easier than marines.

And the flyers are not worth their points. We have a good flyer though, the barracuda.

The Shrike,
What you are suggesting for the Stealth Team would move them from a 'meh, not really my style' to 'must have as it kills everything and survives all!' Frozocrone's idea to give them some sort 'Psudo-Invisibility' is exactly what they need, and probably the only change they need. I would even go as far to say it needs to be turned down a little, maybe 'Snap shot at BS2,' as the suits still have access to greater cover saves after all. The loss of Blast Markers, Templates and a whole wave of other in-direct to-hit weapons/psychic abilities alone is more then enough of a boost the Suits need.

Broadsides are meant to be a Unit which sacrifices mobility for greater fire-power, so anything which restores mobility is to be avoided. I can understand the counter that is likely coming, they would still be slower then other suits, but it is an error to compare them to some of the most mobile non-vehicle Units in the entire game. Right now they have the same limitations as any other low-mobility weapon platform, having to decide if they want to move and snapshot or shoot at full accuracy that round. They only need more reasons to take a Heavy Rail Rifle and granting them Lance seems the way to go, doesn't change how they function but grants a massive boon against heavy-tanks.

Actually an, 'it's invisible until it fires a weapon with a str char' would be better, and more flavorful.

 carldooley wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
And you dont like the flyers? Have you used them in a list built to support them?

what is a list built to support a flier? I have a Razorshark(?) - the one with the quad ion turret & Missile Pod. Anyone else notice that all the weapons are on gimbals, and can target in any direction? I use it to kill things that still have markerlight tokens on them that haven't been completely wiped out. What do you use yours with\for?

The Fighter is great for getting around FnP and the Bomber is just good period. It puts out a ton o fun, especially within 15" range. I kinda threw them both into my list since im trying to play with a Highlander list (no reason, I just love a challenge). they have really surprised me. enemies without anti-air REALLY dont like it, but those with anti air get focus fired until they dont anymore. air dominance for Tau is really nice.

The Fighter acts a lot like a Flying Ionhead without the AP. But it busts that Decurion Warrior armor on Warriors really well.

The Bomber in particular though has done serious work for me.

So, as long as your firing a weapon, it's worse than a marine with a HB? That's not good at all.

edit:ninjed

Carldooley,
If they where granted Markerlights by default, then I would concur that it is a good tweak to Frozocrone's idea.

It would grant Stealth Teams a very nice primary Role as well: Hard to remove Marker Light support. I can not say if it would be enough to make them a viable Elite choice, given their competition, but it would be more then enough to give me a moments pause. I am sure there would be one or two lists built around using Stealth Teams instead of Pathfinders for this Role, a combination of flyers and Stealth Teams could be an interesting 'can't touch this' build. When enough damage has been done by the air-strikes, then they drop their cloaking fields and mop up the survivors and move to score objectives.

Or the whole dex could recieve the necron treatment and everything gets better, even the already good stuff.

Markerlights will stay, and will probably be just as potent. They rather are the tau psychic powers. Broadside railguns will not go back to s10. They lost S10 to keep all those T5 non-eternal warrior characters alive. S10 Broadside spam will not return. And Im not sure lance is going to fix railguns. Just ask the de and eldar how useful S8 lance really is. However I think the line mechanic might make a comeback. Give more reasons to put hammerheads back on the table. The one shot even at S10 just doesn't cut it in todays game as a shooting platform.

Anything that could help steath suits see the table again would be welcome. They are just outclassed by crisis and riptides to even be seriously considered.

I wouldn't be surprised if riptides get turned into LOW. It would limit them to one per army, but you wouldn't have to change much if anything because the excuse, well it is a LOW and should hang with titans etc. o deserve the spot. This would also free up the elite section to sell more crisis suits

Lots of wishful thinking in this thread... let me tell you all what's actually going to happen.

1. Vespid will get nerfed. Yes, they're already so awful that no one uses them, but they're still getting nerfed.
2. Kroot will disappear so that GW can sell them as a dataslate. Due to an error in editing, they will be Allies of Convenience for Tau. It is likely they will be Battle Brothers for Space Marines.
3. Riptides will be slightly nerfed, but will get a 3-Riptide formation.
4. Tau will get a bigger, newer battlesuit. It will make the RAGE!!! induced by the Riptide look like pennies.
5. Iridium armor will give EW (making it about the same as the SM Codex shield, iirc)
6. Tau fliers will get nerfed, but a new flier will be added. Expect an AX-1-0 on crack.
7. Farsight will become a LoW. The Tau Empire itself will not have one.

Why would Riptide became a LoW? No C'Tan shard is, nor are Flyrants. It would be dumb of GW's part to do that, as they'll sell LESS Riptides.
Riptides should become Heavy Support, if a FoC change is to occur, while Spiner Drones become Elites.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

2. Kroot will disappear so that GW can sell them as a dataslate. Due to an error in editing, they will be Allies of Convenience for Tau. It is likely they will be Battle Brothers for Space Marines.

I am only sure of one thing... Something will happen to make Crisis Suits the be-all end-all of the Tau Codex in order to shift hundreds of new models.

Assuming the following:
3 man team box (as present). Option to have commander and 2 bodyguard or Shas'vre and 2 Shas'ui
New weapon type possible: Ion Decelerator 36" S6 AP3

Maybe a kit with fusion blades (that are no longer TL melta signature systems).

Following the sucksess of a No-Brainer Firebase Support Cadre, tau will recieve another formation that features 3 units of vespids and 2 units of kroots with krootoxes. They get Hatred (Tau).

BUFFS:
Vespids - cost reduction to 15pts/model, weapon gets Assault 2, EMP grenades option at 2pts/model, new models
Razorshark fighter - A12 front, networked marker light, drop cost by 15pts, new model
Sunshark Bomber - A12 front, drop cost by 15pts, new model
Rail weapons get 'Railgun' special rule (basically Lance)
Hammerhead - option to take networked marker light at 20pts
Pathfinders - to get infiltrate, 1pt/model increase, also moved to troops
Stealth Suits - drop cost by 5pts/model
Piranha - option to take networked marker light - because Tetras are awesome and GW want the love
Riptide - to get that 3 'Tide formation from Apocalypse

NERFS:
Marker lights - back to -1 from cover save per token, no longer usable in over watch
Supporting Fire range reduced to 3"
Riptide - IA cost increased to 20pt/model
SMS - loses ability to target units out of LOS
Sig systems - become one per model
EWO - 5pt increase
Farsight - LOW, but with additional buffs
Aun'Va - LOW, but with additional buffs
Vespids - lose Stealth (ruins)
Kroot - lose infiltrate (to balance out pathfinders gaining infiltrate) Also lose a lot of options (i.e. krootox) to make you buy the supplement when it comes out
NSJ - increase to 5pts
Onager Gauntlet - increase to 10pts

NEW STUFF:
Ionside - Broadside with Ion Rifle option (somewhere between pathfinder rifle and ion cannon)
Smashside - Broadside built for assault, but assault in a very Tau way - Dual TL heavy flamers, Photon Grenade Dispenser (auto blind hit on charged unit) Inhibitor Field Projector (reduces charged units Attacks to 1 per model)
'Mercenaries of the Empire' Codex - Expanded Kroot / Vespids, Gue'vesa, Niccassar, Demuirg, Thraxians, Greet, the 'Mind Worm' things...) - released probably never.

DEAD STUFF:
Farsight Enclaves - rolled into Tau Codex to make room for 'Mercenaries of the Empire' Codex
Aun'shi
Failsafe detonator / repulsor impact field / flechette discharger / decoy launchers (to make room for new stuff)
Velocity tracker (as wargear option, still on committed AA units like skyray)
Puretide Engram Chip (or at least heavily nerfed)
Sniper drone squads (will become option for something else, not unit in its own right)

NEW FOC:

Monk'Ta Detachment: DS units can arrive turn 1, restricted Cadres choices (see below) to reflect rapid surgical strike style of Monk'Ta (i.e. more DS and fast attack stuff)

Kauyon Detachment: Acute sense to all outflanking units, restricted Cadres choices (see below) to reflect amush style of Kauyon (i.e. more heavy gunline and outflanking stuff)

Introduction of Cadres for building above detachments (a la Decurion) - Hunter Cadre / Crisis Dropstrike Cadre / Advanced Insertion Cadre, etc, etc.. (basically p.25 of current Tau codex)

Some cool ideas; but Pathfinders already infiltrate (or outflank). They have Scout (USR).

If HRRs got lance that would be a great buff; especially combined with a HYMP cost increase. That would at least make it a choice for Broadsides.

EMP grenades on Vespid is a great idea.

I like your detachment ideas too.

DaPino wrote:

Perfect timing is a divination power that lets you predict when an enemy will get out of cover (for instance to shoot).
Markerlights are not that. They are tools that provide additional targeting information by shining them at an enemy.

Something that I'd even rather have (even though it's possibly even stronger) is that marker lights allowed for other Tau units to be able to shoot without line of sight because it makes more sense for them to do so. They could provide enemy locations to enemies not in their line of sight by sending them information to their optics devices. What they cannot do however, is prevent the large building my models are sitting in from being there.

Why would models actually get out of cover? They aren't moving. By that same logic Markerlights do remove cover because they enable you to shoot at exactly the parts of models that are sticking out from behind of the cover due to the enhanced targeting.

 The Shrike wrote:
Some cool ideas; but Pathfinders already infiltrate (or outflank). They have Scout (USR).

Thanks! Unfortunately, Scout doesn't infer Infiltrate on a unit - they are two separate USRs.

Im a Tau player and have been since the original release. Our book is awesome and i dont want to see it get nerfed into the groud but there are a few changes i think would be good.

Nerfs:
- Markerlights are -1 cover save/ +1BS per markerlight
- Slight point increase of EWO (10 pts maybe)

Buffs:
- Crisis and Broadsides T5
- Lance on Broadside Raid guns
- Shadowsun makes stealthsuits troop choices, they can keep the same price tag just make then troops!
- Farsight & Shadowsun Lords of War - Buff them appropriately
- Include the Forgeworld riptides (and other units) in the new codex
- Improve vespid

If that happens ill be one happy fish head!

Why's everyone treating LOW status as something that automatically adds buffs?

To make it comparable to other LOWs I assume.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
To make it comparable to other LOWs I assume.

Like Ghazzy or Imohtek?

Probably. Although I'm not sure how they measure up exactly.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Probably. Although I'm not sure how they measure up exactly.

Ghazzy lost an armywide buff, 1 attack and 5++ for example.

They nerfed him and then made him LOW? That's stupid.

Giving rail weapons the Lance rule does seem like a good idea - it's kind of silly that Tau's super-duper armor penetrating rail rifles are so lame against AV13-14.

Where Tau have the worst internal balance is with their weapons options. There are a lot of weapon options that just never see competitive play because they're not priced well.

I'm curious as to what they'll do with Stealth Teams. I've always thought that just giving them more flexibility with their weapon and equipment choices would make them attractive enough to see competitive play. Some special formations or detachments to free them from competition within the Elite slot would be nice.

I really just think the only thing steath teams need is to be made a troop choice.

90 points for 10 fire warriors with 10 S5 AP 5 shots at 30" and 20 shots at 15" or 3 stealth battle suits with 12 shots at 18" but much more durable and some fantastic USR's is a decent choice for all Tau players and i think it would mean you see a lot more Stealth Suits

HRR goes to Rapid Fire 48", HYMP becomes slightly more expensive.

Ion Accelerator and Ion Cannon get swapped

Bring back moving and shooting for vehicles

Pathfinders get something like combat squads and a price decrease on their special weapons. That way you have an actual reason to purchase them.

Firewarriors get to purchase one Sniper Drone Team that's deployed and acts seperately from the squad, removed from HS entirely

Devilfish gets a drop in points or upgraded to being able to carry even Broadsides

Personally I'd like to see Markerlights changed entirely, but I don't want to get into that right now.

The bomber and fighter need a lot of reworking. The bomber worked better as a fighter due to it's drones, markerlight, and missile pod. The fighter had a better bomb due to it's lower AP and higher S, and the bomber had gets hot that stopped it from dropping bombs.

For the HRR to go rapid-fire 48" would be a nerf to an already under-preforming weapon.

Lets it move and shoot while not really hindering it's range at all and lets it be somewhat useful at taking down MC and heavy infantry. 2 shots at 24" isn't that bad.

2 shots at 24" and BS 3 is not good at all for them. Especially since they are made for anti-vehicle. That's still worse than lascannons, considering how bloody common they are.

It'd still be twin-linked so BS3 and mobile wouldn't be that bad compared to BS3 and stationary. Agree that the S8 is a major drawback against most heavily armored vehicles, but it's supposed to be for lighter vehicles now for some reason.

At 48" it still has plenty of range to targets and volume of fire increases as targets move in and lets you reposition Broadsides with out having a drawback. Over all I'd consider it a buff.

Different play styles I guess.

I want to see T5 Broadsides.

My idea for them is 80 points base cost, but make HRR S8/AP2/Heavy 2, Twin-Linked, Lance/Armorbane. Give them the SnP USR, then make HYMPs cost 15 pts.

I think Stealth Suits should come with a ML, and should have a 2+ cover save until they fire a weapon with a strength value, dropping to 5+ after. Then give each of them the option to take a FB for 10, and they'd be worth the point cost they have now. Limit the size to 3 suits, though.

Another option is to give them a rule like this:

Active Camouflage - Any model with this rule gains a 3+ cover save from any piece of terrain. This save cannot be improved by the Stealth and Shrouded USRs.

Then still give them Stealth as well as built in markerlights.

that makes the stealthsuits less awesome though.

Yeah, stealth suits are actually well designed, just too expensive, and the other options in their slot make it hard to take them. Moving them to FA or troops, coupled with a price drop, should fix them.


Also, I will point out, from a fluff perspective, they don't actually have active camo. The stealth field bend light around them, turning them into a blur in the air, instead of a see-through person. Although that's just a name-change.

Definitely the FA slot is where they belong.

It's my feeling too, but their is a good amount of fighting for that slot as well. We have patfinders for those who use them, pirhanhas are great, and if we include FW, but barracudas and remoras are great options. Although S&S troops might be a bit cruel.

1. Move pathfinders to troop choice.
They are neither fast nor attacking . This would also help using other FA choices such as vespid , flyers, piranhas . It would also warrant non used pathfinders equipment such as ion rifles and rail rifles
2. Revert markerlight tokens to 5th edition rules
Biggest offenders are 2 tokens to remove all cover saves and the nerf of seeker missile usage. Add seeker missles fire by vehicles this way do not have to fire on their target and keep the can increase overwatch/bs past 5
3. Broadsides
T5 , armorbane/fleshbane/lance ( grasping at straws to make it not suck here) . Increase price of HYMP
4. Drones
Remove from 25% leadership check on mixed units. FA drone squads/detached vehicle drones still leadership check. Networked markerlight returns to marker drones.
5. Return multi-tracker,taget lock to vehicles
6. Reduce price of devil fish .
80 points for a transport with poor guns and no fire ports is to much
7. Riptide
Increase price of IA
8. Crisis suits
Reduce price of shield generator 20 points and a slot is very expensive
9. Hammerhead
reduce in price or give the railgun more shots

New unit wishlisting
1 Human axili units
2 another Vespid unit ( what can i saw i like the models )
3. Crisis suit model revamp ( fix the ankles omg )
4. Some anti psyker defense , nissicar prehaps ( tau empire pysker race )
5. Non FW transport for suits , prefer with fire ports
6. Close combat kroot ( that owuld inculde kroot hound useage )

Quick stab at a new FOC organization chart - loosely based around two detachments (Kauyon and Mon'ka)

TAU EMPIRE FOC


I have not checked it for cheese-and-spam-ability yet (you can probably get 8 riptides or something) but as a starting point, what do you think? Probably too many options in each Cadre, might need to be whittled down to one of two in each (a la Decurion).

You got the names inverted. Mont'ka is the Killing Blow.

Customized detachments like that would be cool and fluffy. Now that GW is finally taking advantage of non-CAD detachment types for their codexes, maybe we'll see something like that. I would rather that then see lots of random formations - Tau seem more about combined-arms and promoting synergy than about running lots of little specialized formations

What I think/wish will happen:

-Marker lights will go back to -1 cover per Marker Light.

-Price decrease for Devilfish.

-Farsight & Shadowsun LOW

-Introduce Kais the 3rd of Puretides Students who specialized in "Monat" or to be the perfect Lone Warrior. Basically an upgrade to either a Custom Crisis Suit or Riptide giving it BS & WS 5 on top of other skills.

-Hammerhead gets Rail Rifle fixed, personally make them TL to compensate for the single shot.

-Pathfinders come with Stealth, have access to entire squads of Rail Rifles.

-Riptide Ion Accelerator will be increased in points, nothing else needs to change but GW will probably over react.

-Broadsides will get either S10 Heavy Rail Rifles or S8 Ordnance or Armorbane (like a Leman Russ Vanquisher). Should be T5, HYMP increased to a 5-10 point upgrade and get slow and purposeful.

-Stealth Suits get big points decrease, come with invisibility.

-LOW Tau choices including Tiger Shark variants and new Super Battlesuit (fingers crossed).

-Fighters fixed

FORMATIONS:

-Fish of Fury: Mechanized Fire Warriors list in Devilfish, get either TL or an additional shot the turn they disembark from their Devilfish.

Fire Support Cadre: The current Data Slate just put into the Tau Codex.

-Riptide Formation: Something along the lines of the Imperial Knights formation, combined Nova Shield ability or with their weapons.

-Reserves Formation: ALL Skimmers and Suit variants can either Deep Strike or outflank turn 1. Half auto come in, roll for the rest.

-Gue'vesa Force: Allows you to take Astra Militarium as Battle Brothers. Limited FOC (2 HQ, x4 Troop, x1 Elite, Fast & Heavy Slots). All have BS3, not allowed certain units like Storm Troopers, Commissars, ect. All have preferred enemy IoM, infantry have access to Pulse Rifles & Carbines.

Now I wanted to ask this, what are your people's thoughts about the Farsight Enclaves if the Tau get redone? Me and a few friends at my FLGS were talking about it and one option is that they may get rid of the book entirely based on past editions and just make them a Formation in the Tau book. Do you guys think that will happen or just an FAQ for the current Supplement?

 gmaleron wrote:
-Introduce Kais the 3rd of Puretides Students who specialized in "Monat" or to be the perfect Lone Warrior. Basically an upgrade to either a Custom Crisis Suit or Riptide giving it BS & WS 5 on top of other skills.

-Broadsides will get either S10 Heavy Rail Rifles or S8 Ordnance or Armorbane (like a Leman Russ Vanquisher). Should be T5, HYMP increased to a 5-10 point upgrade and get slow and purposeful.

FORMATIONS:

-Gue'vesa Force: Allows you to take Astra Militarium as Battle Brothers. Limited FOC (2 HQ, x4 Troop, x1 Elite, Fast & Heavy Slots). All have BS3, not allowed certain units like Storm Troopers, Commissars, ect. All have preferred enemy IoM, infantry have access to Pulse Rifles & Carbines.

Now I wanted to ask this, what are your people's thoughts about the Farsight Enclaves if the Tau get redone? Me and a few friends at my FLGS were talking about it and one option is that they may get rid of the book entirely based on past editions and just make them a Formation in the Tau book. Do you guys think that will happen or just an FAQ for the current Supplement?

1. There is already one guy doing that: O'R'alai, from IA3.

2. I don't understand people wanting to give Broadies S&P. Do you guys know it will remove their ability to overwatch - the second most defining rule of Tau? Give Relentless or create a new special rule for that, but god forbid S&P.

3. Gue'vesa shouldn't have PE: IoM. Tau don't field Gue'vesa against IoM, as they noticed the IoM forces will fight even better. It should be the other way around (IoM detachments receive Hatred: (Gue'vesa Force))

4. There's no need to change Farsight book - only that pesky alliance line. The books would still work fine as it is.

Why the call for marker lights to go back to -1 cover per light? I have no problem with Tau being able to defeat cover-based schemes. It's just when they are using it on immortal IA accelerators.

It's one of the things people complain about. Most tau players are fine with it changing, so there isn't much contention over it. Although I would like to bring back their ability to lower Ld for that shooting phase, allowing them to break units easily (think, your allies falling around you to creepily accurate fire by some unknown enemy).

I personally think that if you make Tau weapon choices and platforms more balanced, the ignore cover problem will go away. HYMP broadsides can usually spam through cover if necessary; it's giving ignore cover to a large AP 2 blast that also blows through most FNP.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the things people complain about. Most tau players are fine with it changing, so there isn't much contention over it. Although I would like to bring back their ability to lower Ld for that shooting phase, allowing them to break units easily (think, your allies falling around you to creepily accurate fire by some unknown enemy).

That LD mechanic would be really interesting, although it would have a pretty marginalized effect on marines.

It was a lot of fun, I loved breaking my brother's expensive eldar units with a single FW barrage.

I agree, bring back the old markerlight system it would be very interesting for the game and could be a counter for necrons unless they're fearless.

Some things I would like to see in the next codex:

Decent flyers. Both the razorshark and sunshark need serious help and I would really like to see a way to hunt heavy armor from the skies. Give use something better than missile pod equivalents. Other armies get to bring their A game to the skies, let the Tau do the same.

Bring back the vehicle multitrackers and target locks. These were horrible omissions.

Fix the Devilfish, it is too pricey for what it does.

Completely overhaul markerlights, they have never worked well as a shooting attack and are far too much of a linchpin. Either bring back targeting arrays and allow for more flexible no marketlight builds, or enable markerlights to be spread over a large number of units rather than be consolidated in one or two units that operate in a volley fire type manner.

Reserves control. Give Tau a way to modify reserves so they can better make deepstriking and flanking type armies.

Improve the hammerhead railgun solid shot, it simply doesn't measure up any more.

Get rid of supporting fire. Its a horrible rule that is loathed by both Tau players and Tau opponents alike. The Tau army already has an excellent army wide special rule, it is called markelights. Fix those, ditch supporting fire.

Fix the Broadside HRR. It must be able to pen AV14 or it will remain useless to the army as a whole.

Shift the Tau army design philosophy from a long distance stand and shoot army back to a mid distance shoot and scoot army. Nobody likes playing or playing against a static gunline.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
It's one of the things people complain about. Most tau players are fine with it changing, so there isn't much contention over it. Although I would like to bring back their ability to lower Ld for that shooting phase, allowing them to break units easily (think, your allies falling around you to creepily accurate fire by some unknown enemy).

The problem with this idea is itsside effects IMO. It would help mitigate people's complaints about IA erasing foot troops in cover,but it wouod also nerf Tau's ability to fight jinking skimmers and bikes. Grav bikers are already a tough battle for Tau (and most other armies too for that matter), what makes you think it needs to be even more difficult?

I'm really scared for my 10k of Tau. I hope the only things changed are the riptide to 200pts base to stop the spam, special weapons for FW's, marker lights -1 cover save instead, and one relic per commander, or two. To make you think if you really want that Swiss Army knife.

On a somewhat related note, I feel whatever GW does this year, game balance will be fethed (more fethed than currently that is).

Say the rumors are true, and SM, Eldar (2 top tier armies) and Tau (above average army) get redone this year. If they get redone to the level of most other 7th ed. codexes, the competitive side of 40k will likely be reduced to play Daemons, play Necrons or go home. If they redo them to Necrons power level, a huge gap will be created between the good codexes and everyone else.

Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

kylemcl wrote:
Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

There is a Gue'Vesa in IA3. They can only be used in Taros campaigns, but aren't very good.

a good melee could be provided by Tallarn Dog-Soldiers mercs

I really hope for all those nerfs except the nerfs that make no more buffmander. I think Buffmander really brings out a side in HQs that are fun, not the dedicated slaughter house (Daemon Princes.) but a support role to the troops.

I also really want Gue'vesa, I even just purchased some humans to convert for that very hope!

I'd be OK if they just made IG BB with tau.

kylemcl wrote:
Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

You realize that Gue'vesa are Guardsmen, not Space Marines right?

I'd rather if they're going to put in Gue'vesa that they don't make Guard Battle Brothers with Tau or any kind of nonsense. Just add a unit entry to the Codex, give them some kind of special rule where Imperial units have to fire at them before any other Tau infantry or something to that effect.

NauticalKendall wrote:
I'm really scared for my 10k of Tau. I hope the only things changed are the riptide to 200pts base to stop the spam, special weapons for FW's, marker lights -1 cover save instead, and one relic per commander, or two. To make you think if you really want that Swiss Army knife.

I don't see the Riptide going up to 200 points if anything it will stay the same base points cost (as the base platform is perfectly fine) but the upgrades will either change or get more expensive. And regardless I still think people would take 2 or 3 of them no matter the points cost.

And in regards to Support Fire i actually think it makes sense for the Tau because we literally have no close combat capability, do I think it needs to be nerfed? Most definitely, instead of every unit within 6 inches being able to help make it either 1 or D3 units within 6 inches and make it an ability of the Fireblade to actually give him something that will make people want to take him and giving the Support Fire ability a points cost.

 Kanluwen wrote:

kylemcl wrote:
Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

You realize that Gue'vesa are Guardsmen, not Space Marines right?

I'd rather if they're going to put in Gue'vesa that they don't make Guard Battle Brothers with Tau or any kind of nonsense. Just add a unit entry to the Codex, give them some kind of special rule where Imperial units have to fire at them before any other Tau infantry or something to that effect.

Why do you think making IG Battle Brothers with Tau is 'nonsense'? Gue'vesa are largely former PDF and as such what better way to represent them that IG?

Not that it would be possible under current rules. IoM is a single entry in the ally matrix so you'd have to be battle brothers to everyone. Not that Draigostars with Buffmander wouldn't be fun....

Not just PDF, but mutinied gaurd forces as well.

Not necessarily, if the rule specifically stated Battle Brothers with "Codex Astra Millitarium only" then you could do it.

LordBlades wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

kylemcl wrote:
Would be nice to see human Gue'Vesa I think they where allowed a while back but not in the codex would bring some good close combat to the army.

You realize that Gue'vesa are Guardsmen, not Space Marines right?

I'd rather if they're going to put in Gue'vesa that they don't make Guard Battle Brothers with Tau or any kind of nonsense. Just add a unit entry to the Codex, give them some kind of special rule where Imperial units have to fire at them before any other Tau infantry or something to that effect.

Why do you think making IG Battle Brothers with Tau is 'nonsense'? Gue'vesa are largely former PDF and as such what better way to represent them that IG?

1) The armaments of a Planetary Defense Force are not the same as Guard. There is a reason why Cultists have Autoguns and Heavy Stubbers for CSM.
2) Guardsmen are not the same as Planetary Defense Force.
Not to mention that the Tau don't actually fully trust the Gue'vesa, which is why they give them Tau manufactured variations on Imperial gear rather than Tau equivalent equipment.

Co'tor Shas wrote:Not just PDF, but mutinied Guard forces as well.

That is not strictly true. As we saw in the Taros Campaign book, mutinied Guard forces were VERY uncommon. You didn't have whole squads or companies turning traitor, but rather individuals.

So I could see something like a Gue'vesa Squad consisting of PDF troopers with a "veteran" Sergeant which is a traitor Guardsman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Not necessarily, if the rule specifically stated Battle Brothers with "Codex Astra Millitarium only" then you could do it.

Yeah, because Tau need access to squadrons of Leman Russes, Valkyries, and the like?

No. Simplest way is to actually put a unit out that is equivalent to the CSM Cultists--but different enough to justify its existence in the Tau Codex.

gmaleron wrote:And in regards to Support Fire i actually think it makes sense for the Tau because we literally have no close combat capability, do I think it needs to be nerfed? Most definitely, instead of every unit within 6 inches being able to help make it either 1 or D3 units within 6 inches and make it an ability of the Fireblade to actually give him something that will make people want to take him and giving the Support Fire ability a points cost.

I have to disagree with making it an ability of the Fireblade. Tying a signature ability like that to an HQ choice is a recipe for disaster.

And honestly, I feel no real sympathy for Tau players who think that it "only makes sense" for them to get the Support Fire ability. It makes sense for practically any army to get it as well.
Imperial Guard should get it because of the fact that they're trained in overlapping fire disciplines, no different than the Tau Empire.
Space Marines(of both flavors!) should get it because of that same fact.
Eldar(again, of both flavors) should get it for the same reason.

I think the only army it really doesn't "make sense" for would be Orks--and that's only because Orks would likely stand there laughing as their buddies get butchered, letting them know that the fight coming their way is gonna be a gud 'un.

Actually, the tau don't manufacture any of their gear, human worlds are allowed to do their own manufacturing, the factories retro-fitted by the tau to run efficently and cleanly, with drones, automation and alike. And the imperium has left enough guard gear behind making it easy for reverse engineering, ect.


And I really don't see what the problem with tau being BB with IG is. More than half of the currently existing armies can ally with them, and has that been so bad?

Also, a significant part of the initial Gue'Vesa were Imperial Guard garrisons left behind by the withdrawing Damocles Gulf Crusade.

I also really don't see any mechanical issues with Tau being BB wuth IG. Do ypu really think somebody would take Leman Russ tanks and Valkyries in a Tau army for any other reason than the fact they think it's fun? Tau has better choices for almost everything IG can offer.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Actually, the tau don't manufacture any of their gear, human worlds are allowed to do their own manufacturing, the factories retro-fitted by the tau to run efficently and cleanly, with drones, automation and alike. And the imperium has left enough guard gear behind making it easy for reverse engineering, ect.

That's when a whole WORLD is absorbed in rapid succession and relatively peaceably. When you're talking about an actual war of conquest?
The Tau provide the equipment, either Tau manufactured variations of Guard/PDF equipment or captured equipment, to their forces.

Read some of the Deathwatch RPG material. It's been explored pretty well there.

And I really don't see what the problem with tau being BB with IG is. More than half of the currently existing armies can ally with them, and has that been so bad?

Really?
You don't see the problem with Tau getting easy access to squadrons of Leman Russ variants with no penalties? Squads of Bullgryn to beef up cover/armor saves for Riptides/Crisis Suits/Broadsides?
Or Techpriests repairing hull points on Tau vehicles?

Face it. Making them BB with IG opens up FAR more issues than you seem to be thinking about, because GW is not going to make it so that the Allies matrix will read "Battle Brothers with Imperial Guard, but you can't take X, Y, or Z as part of the Allied detachment."

LordBlades wrote:
Also, a significant part of the initial Gue'Vesa were Imperial Guard garrisons left behind by the withdrawing Damocles Gulf Crusade.

And?

That doesn't mean they were suddenly loyal to the Tau Empire. Remember that Farsight gave them three options: Join the Tau Empire, become prisoners of war, or get executed.
Most of what the actual Gue'vesa are now is the descendants of those Guardsmen. They're so far removed from the actual Guardsmen who turned traitor(whether for real or simply for the purposes of not dying) that you really might as well just make a new unit.

I also really don't see any mechanical issues with Tau being BB wuth IG. Do ypu really think somebody would take Leman Russ tanks and Valkyries in a Tau army for any other reason than the fact they think it's fun? Tau has better choices for almost everything IG can offer.

What do the Tau have access to which is similar to a squadron of Vendettas? Squadrons of Demolishers? Tempestus Scion Platoons loaded with Melta or Plasma Guns?
How about Guard Platoons or Hardened Veteran Squads loaded with special weapons?

What's wrong with tau getting those, when more than half of the armies currently in existance can. And you know what they best part it, they can do that currently, just at DA level. Even making them simply AoC with IG would be better.

Tau taking Leman Russ squadrons or Bullgryns: what's stopping them from doing so now?

Tech priests reparing hull points on Tau vehicles? Only Tau vehicles that aren't gak are the Tetras (good luck repairing that) and Skyray (which nobody shoots after they fired all missiles first round anyway).

Let's face it, AM are one of the bottom codexes in the game atm.

LordBlades wrote:
Tau taking Leman Russ squadrons or Bullgryns: what's stopping them from doing so now?

Tech priests reparing hull points on Tau vehicles? Only Tau vehicles that aren't gak are the Tetras (good luck repairing that) and Skyray (which nobody shoots after they fired all missiles first round anyway).

Enginseer with 3 Servitors with Servo-Arms are repairing HPs, Weapon Destroyed/Immobilised results on 2+. And the unit will still be able to have two Multi-Meltas, Heavy Bolters, or Plasma Cannons.

Let's face it, AM are one of the bottom codexes in the game atm.

So why are you so desperate to get them as Battle Brothers?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
What's wrong with tau getting those, when more than half of the armies currently in existance can. And you know what they best part it, they can do that currently, just at DA level. Even making them simply AoC with IG would be better.

Who cares what "half of the armies currently in existence" can do?

Why would you want them to change the Allies level rather than actually giving you a new unit?

Because it better represents gue'vessa without a lot of work or need for massive rebalancing. The simplest solution is often the best.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Because it better represents gue'vessa without a lot of work or need for massive rebalancing. The simplest solution is often the best.

Except it DOESN'T.

The Gue'vesa are not Guardsmen.
They're not trained the same way, they don't have the same organization, they don't have the same armaments, or anything that makes Guardsmen into Guardsmen.

Why would you not want an actual, dedicated Gue'vesa unit within your book?

Because gue'vessa are gaurdsmen, or equivalent to. They have vehcilces.They have tanks.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Because gue'vessa are gaurdsmen, or equivalent to. They have vehcilces.They have tanks.

This pretty much.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Because gue'vessa are gaurdsmen, or equivalent to. They have vehcilces.They have tanks.

In some circumstances, certainly.
But not anywhere near to the extent to make it so that you just Battle Brothers the Guard in. Not to mention that the tanks aren't the same either. Some of the mentioned tank variants utilize Tau weaponry rather than Imperial weaponry.

The Gue'vesa are NOT the same thing as Imperial Guardsmen. They are NOT equipped anywhere near to the same level, and the Tau do not actually trust them anywhere near enough to equip them to the same level as the Imperial Guard.

The Gue'vesa that have been seen post-Damocles Crusade are actually light infantry armed with Imperial style equipment who serve as infiltrators/insurgents for the Tau Empire when fighting on Imperial held worlds or as scouts/pathfinders when fighting on Tau worlds. Not to mention that those individuals are also third or fourth generation children of the initial Guardsmen or Planetary Defense Force members who turned traitor. Those individuals probably were never trained to fight in the Guard style but rather are trained to fight by the Fire Caste in such a way that they work best with the Tau Empire's forces.

And where is this information from, may I ask?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And where is this information from, may I ask?

Deathwatch RPG material, the initial Tau codex, various BL stories, etc.

Remember that the rules that initially were published for Gue'vesa(one of two times where they got OFFICIAL rules) as a kind of "Chapter Approved" article back on the way old GW website when the Tau first got their book were intended for Gue'vesa during the Damocles Gulf Crusade/immediately after.
The second time Gue'vesa got rules was during the Doctrines book, which was in a White Dwarf and an issue of Black Gobbo on the web. IIRC they had Sharpshooters, Light Infantry, Heavy Weapon Platoons, Special Weapon Squads, and Cyber Enhancement.

Regardless, even in your description and the cited sources, they are more than a single basic unit.

If you are talking about he deathwatch main book, it mostly talks about tau forces, I don't see anything about gue'vessa, and From what I recall, I don't even remeber gue'vessa being mentioed in the first tau codex. I'll probably go dig it up when I get back to my room.

LordBlades wrote:
Regardless, even in your description and the cited sources, they are more than a single basic unit.

Who said anything about a "single basic unit"?

I said make them a UNIT CHOICE. You're aware that units have upgrade options right?

Look, I get that you want to add in Gue'vesa. But simply making Guardsmen into Battle Brothers does nothing.

The Guard book has been suffering from being "the go-to Allies book" for Imperial factions for a long time. Because of that, they're too timid to do any drastic changes.
Adding yet another Battle Brother option for Guard in the form of Tau hurts Guard players because it becomes ANOTHER faction that Guard have synergy with at the cost of Guard being pretty "Meh" by themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
If you are talking about he deathwatch main book, it mostly talks about tau forces, I don't see anything about gue'vessa, and From what I recall, I don't even remeber gue'vessa being mentioned in the first tau codex. I'll probably go dig it up when I get back to my room.

Check the two page story spread in Codex: Tau.

Harmon Delphi(the robed man who meets Palmatus and Captain Taelos) is a Guard deserter. Also pg 8.

I don't think them being allies is a problem for IG, especialy since allying has only been a problem since 6th. I mean, eldar has been using what is pretty much the same codex since 2nd edition.

So because they tend to be allies with other Imperial factions they can't be BB with a race that would make sense based on the current lore? Fail to see the sense in that. Why I suggested a Formation that gave you a limited FOC from Codex Astra Militarium rather then just be BB. And disagree that only IoM forces would hate the traitors and get Preferred Enemy, they left the Imperium for a reason.

And how in any way shape or form is attaching an ability to an HQ choice a disaster? Space Marine Chapter Masters get Orbital Bombardment, Ethereals have their abilities, IG have Orders how would giving the Fireblades the "Support Fire" rule be negative?

Missed that, the story does allude to guard rebelling, but it has nothing about the make up of squads or organization. And I can't find anything on page 8. Perhaps you mean a different page?

 Kanluwen wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
Regardless, even in your description and the cited sources, they are more than a single basic unit.

Who said anything about a "single basic unit"?

I said make them a UNIT CHOICE. You're aware that units have upgrade options right?

Look, I get that you want to add in Gue'vesa. But simply making Guardsmen into Battle Brothers does nothing.

How many uogrades can ypu cram into a unit to accurarely represent Gue'vesa? Just look at Kroot squads. They fail to represent all Kroit can bring to the table despite upgrades.

Personally I feel making Guard BB gives us a closer approximation of Gue'vesathan a single unit, unless you give it a silly amount of options.

^ Why Kroot are getting their own Supplement Book if the rumors are true.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Missed that, the story does allude to guard rebelling, but it has nothing about the make up of squads or organization. And I can't find anything on page 8. Perhaps you mean a different page?

Codex: Tau page 8 wrote:
As the fleet withdrew, Tau forces, one of which was led by the infamous Commander Farsight, followed in its wake and retook their lost worlds, assimilating groups of Human deserters and renegades in the process.

gmaleron wrote:So because they tend to be allies with other Imperial factions they can't be BB with a race that would make sense based on the current lore? Fail to see the sense in that.

The Tau don't trust the Gue'vesa enough to arm them with Tau weaponry. There is a reason why the Tau either reverse engineer human weaponry(beyond "know thy enemy") and that reason is so that they can arm Gue'vesa with inferior weapons in case the traitors turn again.

Why I suggested a Formation that gave you a limited FOC from Codex Astra Militarium rather then just be BB.

And what would you limit it to? Troops? If you're going to bother with that, just put the damn unit in the army book and call it a day.

And disagree that only IoM forces would hate the traitors and get Preferred Enemy, they left the Imperium for a reason.

Yeah.

The majority of them did not want to get kept as prisoners of war or executed by the Tau.

Just throwing this out there but this was the first real time that Gue'vesa were really explored in depth.
Not too long after that we had the Taros Campaign book and its first edition, where the Gue'vesa were PDF members and members of the Governor's household guard.

Also that showcased almost an entire captured unit of Elysian Drop Troops being shipped off to mines on the planet and worked to death.

And how in any way shape or form is attaching an ability to an HQ choice a disaster? Space Marine Chapter Masters get Orbital Bombardment, Ethereals have their abilities, IG have Orders how would giving the Fireblades the "Support Fire" rule be negative?

Having two HQs which become "mandatory" in the Tau book for their special rules does not seem to be a disaster to you?

And quite frankly, the SM Chapter Masters getting orbital bombardment IS something that I consider a disaster as well because it is not across all of the books. For the sake of all that is logical and reasonable, the Dark Angels do not get orbital bombardments despite being one of the most notable fleet based Chapters. Where do you think those Deathwing Terminators teleport from?
Guard Orders are an army wide special rule, not just for HQs. Platoon Commanders(a mandatory part of an Infantry Platoon) can issue Orders and so can Tempestor Primes.

LordBlades wrote:How many upgrades can you cram into a unit to accurarely represent Gue'vesa? Just look at Kroot squads. They fail to represent all Kroot can bring to the table despite upgrades.

That's a problem with you expecting more of the Kroot Carnivore Squad than what it says on the tin. A Kroot Carnivore Squad is just that: a Kroot Carnivore Squad. It's not a Kroot Vulture Squad or a Krootox Squad or a Kroot Knarloc Riders Squad.

Those are different units entirely.

Personally I feel making Guard BB gives us a closer approximation of Gue'vesathan a single unit, unless you give it a silly amount of options.

Considering the only Gue'vesa unit that has actually ever gotten rules was exactly a single unit type and anything else was essentially Studio members wanting to make what their personal vision of a Gue'vesa Regiment would look like, I don't see where you have gotten all of these "options" from.

People, they won't change alliance levels. They already are established in the BRB. Only the new stuff (Harlequins, Skitarii) gets their on tables because they're new stuff. The next Tau codex won't change alliance levels, and they won't change just AM alliance with Tau - it's easier to create a new unit entry. Not simpler, but easier.

They may change supressing fire, but they won't take it away. No point dreaming with that.

Thing to change in the new edition:

I hope for the next codex the vespid to be given some utility or some new weapon with a cost reduction.
XV-88 with T5 or 6 railgun with S9 and giving the option to be upgraded to submunition rounds
Etereals with the option to use a Shield generator as special gear to give them some chance to survive in the field.
FnP on the riptide to have a cost reduction, 30 points are so much to have a 5+ special save.
Nova reactor overcharge a roll of 2+
Bomber with a good bomb, not just and induction bomb with S5 Fp5...
An improve to every flyer.
misile drones to FW, but only 1 per unit and with a different cost
FW shas´ui a price cost reduction by half?
a new shield drone with W2 S4 S3++ as an upgrade to commanders (this one is only a joke)

to remain the same
Marker lights with no change

If the trend continues, Riptides will get super soakers for guns, but Fire Warriors will be S5, Shred, and if they stand still, double their firing distance.

 TheKbob wrote:
If the trend continues, Riptides will get super soakers for guns, but Fire Warriors will be S5, Shred, and if they stand still, double their firing distance.

I said it before and I will say it again, keep this up and GW will contact you for a rules writing job haha

guler_shatren wrote:
Thing to change in the new edition:

I hope for the next codex the vespid to be given some utility or some new weapon with a cost reduction.
XV-88 with T5 or 6 railgun with S9 and giving the option to be upgraded to submunition rounds
Bomber with a good bomb, not just and induction bomb with S5 Fp5...
misile drones to FW, but only 1 per unit and with a different cost
FW shas´ui a price cost reduction by half?

If Neutron Blasters were Assault 2, basically anyone would field a unit of them. Oh, and an acceptable Ld (6, jayzus)
XV-88s with increased toughness is a possibility. Destroyers got theirs. What I'd like to see is a fluffy rule for the railguns... just giving them S9-10 isn't enough.
The bomb vould become S7 or even S8, but with a 4+ to be remade. It would still be better than one-use bombs.
No point giving FWs just 1 missile drone. They'll either let them get 2 or none (exclusive to battlesuits).
Shas'ui has the price of general sergeant upgrade, so I don't see it getting a discount. Becoming W2, yes.

After this Eldar buff I predict:
D cannon Broadsides.
Scatter weaponry crisis suits.

Also with future Kroot codex rumours, I will say removal of Kroot.

Okay, what I'd like to see:

1) Markerlights back to what they were in the 4th ed book.

2) Seeker Missiles back to what they were in the 4th ed book (don't need to fire at same target as rest of vehicle shooting but can only be fired using markerlights) with maybe a special rule on the Skyray/fliers allowing it to fire them as normal shooting.

3) Hammerhead Railgun solid shot gains Ordnance. Change the twinlinked burst cannon back into two separate burst cannons to make it a possible choice rather than an automatic trade for SMS, bring back vehicle target locks to allow split fire. Maybe a very small points decrease. Maybe allow squadrons.

4) S9 Broadside Railguns. There's no way those monsters should be weaker than a man portable lascannon. T5 for Broadsides with a points increase (back to 70/model or up to 75?). Maybe bring back Advanced Stabilisation Systems, but which grant permanent SnP rather than the switch on/off that it was before.

5) Points decrease for Stealth suits, would say move them to fast attack but then they'll be competing with markerlights and so still wouldn't get taken (unless we gave markerlights to all stealth suits, rather than just the shas'vre, as a wargear option?). At least in Elites they can see play with a Farsight Enclaves list which doesn't want to use Riptides.

6) Ion Accelerator loses overcharge profile, range decrease for both the standard and nova-charged profile (maybe to 36"?). Increased upgrade cost.

7) Aun'Va gains 8D6 Strength D Hammer of Wrath attacks from his pimp chair, 12" movement, 4D6" run and charge distance and can assault after running. Also gains a 2++ save, Eternal Warrior and 10W. Becomes a Lord of War. Gets points decrease.

8) Shield Drones gain a special rule allowing them to do Look Out Sir! even if they're not the closest model, no roll required.

9) I would say fix Vespid but I have no idea how. Maybe make the Neutron Blaster a template weapon? Maybe be S4 rather than 5 to balance it out?

10) Maybe a slight points decrease for Devilfish

11) Farsight gains Eternal Warrior. Maybe some form of wound regen from the Dawn Blade? At the end of the fight subphase if Farsight has slain an enemy with the dawn blade then roll a dice, on a (5+ or 4+ maybe?) he regains a wound. This cannot take him above his starting number of wounds. Can only regenerate one wound per fight subphase. Points increase to incorporate these new rules of course.

12) Points decrease for Shield Generators, maybe down to 20 each?

13) Make bonding knives useful for Crisis Teams. Maybe a reroll to morale tests or something?

14) Bring back S4 for the Kroot.

All I can think of for the moment.

The easiest way to make vespid viable is to turn them into a harassment and assault unit.
Give them S4 base, and make their diamond hard claws give them AP3-4. Neutron blaster to assault 2. Give them 2-3 attacks each. Increase initiative to 4-5. Maybe re-cost. done.

Now they are a fast, anti-meq assaulter, with almost no effort at all. They hit relatively hard, but die to any sort of shooting (they still only have a 4+ save)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The easiest way to make vespid viable is to turn them into a harassment and assault unit.
Give them S4 base, and make their diamond hard claws give them AP3-4. Neutron blaster to assault 2. Give them 2-3 attacks each. Increase initiative to 4-5. Maybe re-cost. done.

Now they are a fast, anti-meq assaulter, with almost no effort at all. They hit relatively hard, but die to any sort of shooting (they still only have a 4+ save)

Vespid currently have Initiative 6

Perfect example of how little attention we Tau players pay to vespid

There we go, doesn't even need to change.

I have a squad of them in my room, I think I used them once. As such I'm a bit fuzzy on the rules.

Edit: You know what's really funny? They got buffed this edition and are still this bad.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
There we go, doesn't even need to change.

I have a squad of them in my room, I think I used them once. As such I'm a bit fuzzy on the rules.

Edit: You know what's really funny? They got buffed this edition and are still this bad.

I have never used them. Don't even own any.

Well it wasn't that big of a buff, extra attack for the strain leader, extra point of initiative, stealth in ruins, a 4+ save rather than 5+ and Hit and Run. Points increase of 2 per model (4 for the strain leader as he's now a 10 point upgrade rather than just 22 points flat).

Hit and Run could be kinda useful if they were likely to survive in combat and still be in a useful shape afterwards but with WS3 and S3 that's not likely to happen, even when they're striking at initiative 6. Stealth in ruins is nice if you use lots of ruins, the 4+ helps against bolters and other AP5. Overall don't think it was worth the 2 point increase as they weren't really worth their points before anyway.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


7) Aun'Va gains 8D6 Strength D Hammer of Wrath attacks from his pimp chair, 12" movement, 4D6" run and charge distance and can assault after running. Also gains a 2++ save, Eternal Warrior and 10W. Becomes a Lord of War. Gets points decrease.

.

I like that suggestion

SGTPozy wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


7) Aun'Va gains 8D6 Strength D Hammer of Wrath attacks from his pimp chair, 12" movement, 4D6" run and charge distance and can assault after running. Also gains a 2++ save, Eternal Warrior and 10W. Becomes a Lord of War. Gets points decrease.

.

I like that suggestion

Had to make sure people were actually paying attention!

However I can actually see that happening, would need an update of the dynamic entry model for it!

Better balanced units so that more lists becom viable, lists withoud kroot, vespid and other xeno filth.

Networked markerlight upgrades for most units

Cheaper devilfish with greater capacity

T4 stealth suits

Alternate small template fire mode for smart missiles

Relentless broadsides with S9 railguns

Cheaper fire warriors

2+nova charge

Greater difference between the rail rifle and plasma rifle

Fixing the hammerhead burst cannons

General cost reduction of crappy units

Remember: Nerfing your army is balancing, nerfing my army is sacrelige and proof that GW is an evil evil company that hate their consumers and propably kills kittens

Predictions:
- Most stuff stays the same.
- Riptide points increase.
- SMS range nerf (back to 24").

Wishlisting:
. All Rail weapons have Armourbane. Heavy Rail Rifles are Rapid Fire.
- Pulse Rifles are Salvo 1/2.
- Iridium Armor Plates are universal upgrades to all Commanders, Crisis Bodyguards, Crisis Teams and Broadside Teams.
- Failsafe Detonator is a normal Battle System.
- Rail Rifle and SMS as normal Battlesuit Weapons. CIB and AFP one-per-army limit is lifted. Heavy Flamer as a Battlesuit Weapon.
- Targeting Array (+1 BS) is back as a Battle/Vehicle System.
- EWO is up to 10 ppm.
- Shield Generator is down to 20 ppm.
- Gun Drones have the option to replace their TL Pulse Carbines with single special weapons.
- Grav Wave Drones, Recon Drones and Pulse Accelerator Drones are now standard issue.
- Riptides can no longer take Stimulant Injectors.
- Crisis Bodyguard Team maximum unit size is up to 5 (9 for Farsight).
- Stealth Team maximum unit size is up to 9 with slightly cheaper Stealth Suits. Fusion Blasters are also available for all members.
- Riptide base cost is up to 200. Failing the Nova roll reduces T by 1 for a turn rather than cause a Wound. Ion Accelerator cost is up to +20 points. HBC is now Heavy 8 / Heavy 15. IA is now AP3 all across the field.
- Fire Warrior Team maximum unit size is up to 24.
- Kroot is Strength 4 and Initiative 4.
- Devilfishes cost 55-60 points.
- Pathfinders are now 10 ppm. Their special weapon upgrades are also free.
- The Strike Fighter has a Heavy Burst Cannon instead of its Burst Cannon and it can replace the HBC with a HYMP.
- The Bomber's bomb is S10, AP1, Blast.
- Broadsides can replace their SMS with TL Missile Pods. They also gain a third weapon option, some sort of light double-barreled ion cannon.

obak wrote:
Better balanced units so that more lists becom viable, lists withoud kroot, vespid and other xeno filth.

Networked markerlight upgrades for most units

Cheaper devilfish with greater capacity

T4 stealth suits

Alternate small template fire mode for smart missiles

Relentless broadsides with S9 railguns

Cheaper fire warriors

2+nova charge

Greater difference between the rail rifle and plasma rifle

Fixing the hammerhead burst cannons

General cost reduction of crappy units

Remember: Nerfing your army is balancing, nerfing my army is sacrelige and proof that GW is an evil evil company that hate their consumers and propably kills kittens

To nerf any army after putting necrons and eldar's codex out the door is sacrelige

My expectations:

No swapping of FOC slots with the right HQ. We have Formations now to let us spam units and the bonuses from them will be as good or better than Objective Secured (at least in theory).

Tank / Flyer Squadrons.

Stormsurge as Lord of War rather than Heavy Support.

New Firewarrior kit allows for making a very in-your face unit which is probably Troops or Fast Attack.

Some of our existing units will be changing slot (we've had evidence for Fireblade and Gun Drones, but I don't think they are the only ones).

Few major changes to the stats of models or weapons (So no St 10 Broadside guns) with the possible exception of the Riptide.

I'm interested in seeing who gets the LoW slots.
I can't imagine the stormsurge and the Riptide getting put in there. Though I'm more interested to see if they actually put the space pope in as a LoW.

I'm just hoping for some good FA options that are not FW. And for LoW I too am interested in seeing where that goes. I can see it being the stormsurge or the pope. Its a toss up.

Jeez... how many pages did you have to dig thru to dig this old guy up..?

There's a 30pg thread in the News & Rumors section you guys could have chimed in on.

This thread was active up until a couple days ago.
That and News and Rumor aren't threads for wish listing and general hyping.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
This thread was active up until a couple days ago.
That and News and Rumor aren't threads for wish listing and general hyping.

This thread wasn't.

It went from April 19th, 2015 to September 23rd, 2015.

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