First i want to say that this post is NOT meant to ask for rumors

Im just asking if anybody has any ideas for POSSIBLE new models, rules, Superheavies,supplements, names of units, etc for the Adepta Sororitas. This is just for the fun of imagination.

Remember: No Rumors. we all know how reliable those are. GW hints at older codices being updated and then they come out with a new space marines codex.

Madoch1 wrote:
GW hints at older codices being updated and then they come out with a new space marines codex.

GW hasn't hinted at anything in years

I'd like to see more of the weird stuff like the Flagellents and Penitent Engines... Maybe a super Flagellent penitent engine...

I'd prefer to see actual Sisters stuff rather than regurgitated Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy crap. I was never interested in freakshow armies.

If you check the proposed rules forum, there are many sob proposed codexes with new units.

 Melissia wrote:
I'd prefer to see actual Sisters stuff rather than regurgitated Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy crap. I was never interested in freakshow armies.

Ha, fair enough. I'd like to see more actual sisters stuff as long as it's not just like sisters versions of SM stuff, and they're actual new units.

Define "actual new units". Because if you only define that in a way that means "freakshow army", then I repeat my objection.

I want to see Sisters having super old relic stuff from the technological dark age. Honestly I think they're more likely to have something like an imperial Jetbike or a special vehicle StC than the Astartes, who would say "hmmm what would my spiritual primarch Robute Guilliman say about this? Gosh dang why couldn't I have been an ultramarine... I'd better just destroy this". Whereas the sisters of battle would be more likely to go "wow this tank didn't melt even after a whole barrels worth of promethium. That's pretty slick, it's probably a gift from the emperor. And it would look pretty awesome with some gold and marble filigree, maybe a stained glass window over here..."

Heh, the 'freakshow' stuff is mostly what I'd be interested in! More Blanchian/Clive Barker-esque weirdness, please!

I think a sister style of centurions would be sweet, with a heavy flamer because girls like fire.

I am with Melissia on that point. I would like to see new Repentia because they do belong to Sisters and give them a darker side, but I would especially like to see more actual true Sisters of Battle from the regular ones to stuff like close combat Celestian or Sisters on cybernetic warhorses. I would also like them to be little bit more assault base, but that's a personnal preference. I would like to see things like arco-flagelant and perhaps even Penitent Engins be relegated to an Inquisitorial codex with priests and confessors instead of adding them to Sisters. I did a fan made codex on dakka a few weeks ago, I did added a few new units to spice things up.

 Melissia wrote:
Define "actual new units". Because if you only define that in a way that means "freakshow army", then I repeat my objection.

No that's not what I mean. I meant more like they didn't just take a Devestator squad but make it sisters instead of SM. Or, assault marines. Or... Whatever. Sisters have always seemed like that to me, you have the heavy weapons squad, the jet pack squad, the general squad... Id rather something different, whether it's 'freakshow' or not.

So you're saying Sisters don't deserve a heavy weapons squad and Retributors should be removed?

 Melissia wrote:
So you're saying Sisters don't deserve a heavy weapons squad and Retributors should be removed?

No... I'm saying that moving on I'd like them to feel more different than just Space Marine squads with sisters models...

A customizable living saint could be cool.
Some kind of terminator squad, some Sisters of Silence (A unit of Cullexus). Maybe some kind of holy possessed, like a lesser living saint?

A penitent engine inside a larger penitent engine, swinging D-weapon flails consisting of heretics on ropes.

The Penitentest Engine.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
So you're saying Sisters don't deserve a heavy weapons squad and Retributors should be removed?

No... I'm saying that moving on I'd like them to feel more different than just Space Marine squads with sisters models...

And how are you going to do that without getting rid of Retributors? Or Battle Sisters? Or Celestians?

Are Sisters supposed to do without heavy weapons squads? Because there's only so many ways you can do a heavy weapon squad and most of them end up looking like Devastators because Devastators are so generic. Are Sisters supposed to do without an elite infantry squad like Celestians because Sternguard exist? Because as it is I'm really not sure where you're going with that.

You can always draw parallels between units. Hell, you can draw parallels between Sisters and Eldar, too, with how Sisters are often run.

I still want SoB TEQ. I don't care if SM had them first, SoB should get them anyway.

And if someone so much as breathes the possibility of boobplate they'll get purged.

Hey, I have an idea for an SoB superheavy. A baneblade, but the main gun is a giant flamer, and all the HBs can be replaced with heavy flamers and multi-meltas. The SoB with call it the "Holy Burnerator 5000", and heritcs will call it "OH GOD THE FIRE! IT BURNS! HELP ME! AAAAAAAGH!".

On a more serious note, I think an assault unit with duel wielded flamer-pistols would be fun and somewhat hilarious.

I'd like to see Celestians restored to I4/WS4 and be given the opportunity to purchase Crusader gear (stormshield+powersword, basically) for the squad. It would add a lot, I feel, to the Sisters list.

I would like to see Repentia retooled away from the near naked BSDM stuff they have now. I like the concept of them, but naked is dumb. Maybe change them to shaving their heads and putting on robes.

Act of Faiths should move away from one use only. I would like to see it changed to a quasi power thing. Work kind of like this:

Every act of faith costs a faith point that lets you take a leadership test to use your AOF, which can be used every turn. You begin the game with X number of FP + any bonuses. At the end of your turn all FP disappear so it is a use it or lose it type thing. You gain faith points at the start of a new turn by holding objectives to represent a bubble of the Emperor's Light in an otherwise hostile place. Certain units always generate a FP and get a bonus to generating FP if they are holding an objective themselves. Cannoness, Saints, and Priests always generate a point regardless of holding objectives. Priests generate a bonus FP for holding an objective.

New unit, Martyr or whatever name you would like to call it.

Martyr has same stats as a sister superior, but an extra wound and the IC special rule. They function as a defensive priest of sorts. When holding an objective all units within 12 inches get a +1 bonus to their invul save. For every turn the Martyr holds an objective that bonus increases by one, but can never go higher than 3++. Martyrs generate a bonus FP for holding an objective.

Martyrdom
If a priest, Martyr, or Cannoness dies while holding an objective or in close combat all AOF become free for the following game turn.

Obviously just hypothetical, but the current way AOF works along with the shield of faith ability is a little boring. This makes it more interesting because it rewards you for putting your units out there holding the line and claiming territory for the emperor. Likewise, if your units die doing their job everyone get a boost because Sisters should be all about heroic sacrifice. Also it makes the most out of the SOF ability while not being too OP.

For those interested (like the OP I suspect) in what dakka dakka has produced when it comes to Sisters of Battle new units, rules or even codex, I have put bellow the links for two fan made codex. The first one is mine, the second one is he extansive and excellent one produce by SisterSydney and the last one is more specifically on Celestian changes.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/640194.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/626986.page

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/635733.page

 Melissia wrote:
I'd like to see Celestians restored to I4/WS4 and be given the opportunity to purchase Crusader gear (stormshield+powersword, basically) for the squad. It would add a lot, I feel, to the Sisters list.

Indeed - that would be good.

We know from GW in Shield of Baal that they have air dropable cathedrals etc - be good to have a Lord of War unit along these lines / the famous pic of the tracked cathedral.

Its never very clear who maintains the Sororitas machines and so again this has possibility for a Tech marine style unit?

I think the Flagellant / Repentia look is fine - seems completely in keeping?

Some female priest models would be nice

Novices would be a nice unit

as others have said there are half a dozen new proposed codexes loitering around on Dakka

I like the idea of robed Repentia. Blindfolded too, possibly. A kind of "I live or die purely by the will of the Emperor" kind of thing. Just a thought.

Gameplay wise I want to see them move more towards the heavy MEQ troops protecting weaker force multiplier units. I'm envisioning robed vestals with incense and hymnals who, when out in the open/on objectives/putting themselves at risk enable the more powerful faith abilities of the rest of the sisters.

The other thing I want is to divorce all sisters vehicles besides the basic transport from the Rhino. Every other vehicle should have a heavier/more baroque feel to it. I think it'd be cool to have their aesthetic for vehicles be "they are actually ancient, much more powerful weapons but with flamers and melta guns strapped on" and then have their "acts of faith" equivalent being the ancient weapons actually turning on and working.

The units Id add would be Mechanical Vestals (maintain and use the vehicles, these being in danger unlock the power of the ancient and less-understood machine spirits) and Hymnists (inspire the troops and unlock the faith acts from the infantry).

They'd have a special rule where any time they would claim a cover save because of allied units, that allied unit can voluntarily make themselves the target of the attack.

Well you have C:SM with their Marines in Power armour in Centurion Armour.

Then there is Grey Knights with their Marines in Terminator armour in a Dreadknight exoskeleton.

So its only reasonably to expect the Sisters to get some kind of Sister in Power armour in a Pentient engine in a Dreadknight exoskeleton.

Or they could do something less stupid and just have something more unique. Perhaps combine the look of a knight in full plate armor with the look of Sisters, and make it bulkier, to get a heavier suit of power armor designed for assaults on strategic enemy positions-- and there's plenty of ways to do this without making it termie armor.

For example, making it 3+ armor that rerolls failed saves at a 4+, and giving them some variant of the old blessed weapon that was eventually ripped out and turned in to the space marine "relic blade" so they have the initiative and strength to be dedicated close combat elites.

Whatever they do, remove the current armor look. I'd like to see something like this:

Edit: ZOMG! Huge picture!

Sniper-Flamers are a must!!

Uh... How does that work?

 kronk wrote:
Uh... How does that work?

Faith? (and Promethium)

The Illuminators- Sisters so pure that candles made from their ear wax or the fat from fallen sisters can unsommon greater deamons.

Of course, now that I have put the name out there, GW will rip-off the Tau markerlight system to make whatever super expensive new model, that shoots volcanic ordinance, sniper accurate.

 kronk wrote:
Whatever they do, remove the current armor look. I'd like to see something like this:

Edit: ZOMG! Huge picture!

Spoiler:

Dude those look awesome. They could use some more robe cloth near the shoulders to set them apart from space marines.

Honestly i would love to see some sniper units, a flyer unit, revamped AoF rules, some new heroes,and if nothing else i would like to see a second troop choice ( yeah they only have one troop choice, orks have more troop choices. Doesn't that just piss you off). And you know what ill go out on a limb and say when they SOB get rebooted there'll be an Order supplement.

And before somebody says "you should play SM". No. Ive played them i hate their fluff, And they have way too many codices (12 including chaos marines

Why not a heavy armor unit that belches flames every which way?

Like something with AV 13 or 14 on the front but far weaker side and rear armor with multiple heavy flamers or inferno cannons, or even Meltas



Idea:

Holy Flame Assault Tank (I dunno. something like that)

AV 14/11/11 or 13/12/11
HP 3
Tank

Weapons:

Turret Mounted Inferno Cannon or Melta Cannon (Like from the Hellhound/Devil Dog)

Sponson Heavy Flamers or upgrade to Multi Meltas

Hull mounted Heavy bolter. upgrade to again, melta and flamer.

Not sure the points...


Perhaps even a smaller version of the Malcador Infernus.

a giant flamethrower mounted in the hull of a Tank.

The hellstorm template having its range reduced so the small end of the template comes from the barrel of the weapon. But it would have fewer weapons and only mount the primary big flamer and perhaps a pintle mount.

 Melissia wrote:
I'd like to see Celestians restored to I4/WS4 and be given the opportunity to purchase Crusader gear (stormshield+powersword, basically) for the squad. It would add a lot, I feel, to the Sisters list.

WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT. Unless you wanna give Vanguard/Sternguard/Chosen I5. That would be fine with me.

Ooh, what about infantry with a nova shooting weapon? On fire with the flames of the emperor!

@Ashiraya

I would (obviously) be of the opinion of having Celestian and Seraphim with the following profile WS: 4,BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 4, A: 2, Ld: 9, Sv: 3+/6++ They are the equivalent for SoB of the Vangard/Sternguard/Chosen. They have they same enhance training (but in a differen fashion) and combat experience.

Personnaly, I wouldn't change the stats of the marines ones because I think the average Sister is I 3, but nearly 4 while the average Space Marine is an average I 4 and the veteran nearly I 5 but not quite so. But, I would like the options for those Marines units to have some special rule that would help them offensively like prefered ennemy to represent their incredible knowledge of the ennemy or furious charge for Vanguard.

Celestians already have WS4. I use them with a Cannoness and a couple of Priests to tarpit stuff, since being able to re-roll their saves via War Hymns makes them surprisingly resilient in close combat. Give the Cannoness an Eviscerator so she can go to town on 2+ saves and you're good to go imo (as long as you can get them into CC).

I think Sisters just need some more fast moving units. Seraphim are fine (maybe lower the cost of their dual inferno pistols) but other than that the only things we have that can move more than 6" a turn are Vehicles. And they have inherit downsides when they do move at cruising speed. As far as 'heavier' vehicles go I think we're ok - not great but not bad either - with the Exorcist and Repressor. A new LoW Super-Heavy Cathedral Tank or something would be pretty sweet though.

In the hypothetical scenario where Sisters get re-vamped and all new plastic kits, I'd like to see Penitent Engines become similar to Maulerfiends or those new Skitarri walkers which get extra movement options. Repentia should also get some sort of movement buff, like adding extra movement distance - an interesting idea I had was to make their Act of Faith make them move like Beasts for the turn (12" Move, Move Through Cover, Fleet) - to represent their "maniacal fervour" as the codex puts it (also the Mistress' bigass whips!).

 ImAGeek wrote:
No that's not what I mean. I meant more like they didn't just take a Devestator squad but make it sisters instead of SM. Or, assault marines. Or... Whatever. Sisters have always seemed like that to me, you have the heavy weapons squad, the jet pack squad, the general squad... Id rather something different, whether it's 'freakshow' or not.

Seraphim may have jump pack, but they are really different from assault marines. They do not play the same, and they do not rely on the same archetype. Assault marines use their jumppack to violently enter melee. Seraphim use their for the huge mobility to boost their gunslinger talents.
I would be fine with Sisters on bike and sisters with heavy armor if they were made different from the SM bikes and terminators in the same way. After all, nobody is comparing swooping hawks or stormboyz to assault marines.


I want my “Relics of a saint, Grail-reliquary-style” tank (or just peon-mounted altar) !

Sisters in heavy armor and shield (2+) with power lance on bikes would be sweet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The old style shooty drop pods would be excellent as well as drop shrines.

You know i was thinking that a cool ability would be for the Sister Repentia to be able to charge out of a non open topped vehicles.
And also make AoF more like the IG orders phase and psychic phase mix.

Maybe a new heavy support like a land raider. on either side is a plasma cannon. and up front is a heavy flamer. (and once per game you can use the big flame template. the hellstorm template IIRC)

Actually, a lot of these -- even the crazier ones -- already have rules in [shameless self-promotion]my fandex/expandex[/shameless self-promotion]. Let's see now:

Purifier wrote:A penitent engine inside a larger penitent engine, swinging D-weapon flails consisting of heretics on ropes. The Penitentest Engine.

Try Penitent Titan. 775 points. Comes with Titanic Eviscerator. For 30 points you can upgrade with handholds for a squad of Repentia.

Co'tor Shas wrote:Hey, I have an idea for an SoB superheavy. A baneblade, but the main gun is a giant flamer, and all the HBs can be replaced with heavy flamers and multi-meltas. The SoB with call it the "Holy Burnerator 5000", and heritcs will call it "OH GOD THE FIRE! IT BURNS! HELP ME! AAAAAAAGH!"....

I call it the Flameblade. (Hey, it's a less random name than most of GW's superheavy tanks). Also the Fire Sword (giant melta gun) and Storm Queen (Stormlord with option to put a minaret in the troop bay).

Mr Morden wrote:We know from GW in Shield of Baal that they have air dropable cathedrals etc - be good to have a Lord of War unit along these lines / the famous pic of the tracked cathedral.

Battle Chapel. 3,000 points.

Wonderwolf wrote:Sniper-Flamers are a must!!

Spoiler:

Vigils come pretty close..... Sororitas Infiltrators who can take 4 special weapons per squad. They don't get Sniper but their AOF give sthem the pick of Precision Shots, Monster Hunter, or Tank Hunter.

Engine of War wrote:Why not a heavy armor unit that belches flames every which way?

Sororitas Predator Infernus.

GoonBandito wrote: I think Sisters just need some more fast moving units....

Thrones - Sororitas Bikers with AOF allowing a drive-by shooting (turbo-boost & shoot in same phase).
Lucifer Scout Tank (Hellbound/Devil Dog minus armor plus Scout).
Sororitas Valkyrie, Victoria, & Virago (Valk variants).

epronovost wrote:
I am with Melissia on that point. I would like to see new Repentia because they do belong to Sisters and give them a darker side, but I would especially like to see more actual true Sisters of Battle from the regular ones to stuff like close combat Celestian or Sisters on cybernetic warhorses. I would also like them to be little bit more assault base, but that's a personnal preference. I would like to see things like arco-flagelant and perhaps even Penitent Engins be relegated to an Inquisitorial codex with priests and confessors instead of adding them to Sisters. I did a fan made codex on dakka a few weeks ago, I did added a few new units to spice things up.

Cybernetic warhorse cavalry.

I like that!

I can never decide if cyborg/robot warhorses are silly or AWESOME.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I can never decide if cyborg/robot warhorses are silly or AWESOME.

They are both .

Looking at the Sisters I think they're lacking good fast units, BIkes, Robohorses, etc and Flyers.

While the Sisters could use all sorts of things, chiefly updated models, I do agree that their rules could use a bit of an expansion. And I do love the freakshow (I mean, really, half the reason I enjoy 40k is the twisted dark background lore...) the Sisters themselves deserve a good solid focus. Here are some ideas I can think of...

Psyker Hate: They hate the Witch and the Heretic, right? And while they do have Adamantium Will, I feel like they certainly could use a bit more oomph. (though this might also be me having a bit of concern over how hard it can be to dispel anything in the Psychic Phase...anyways!)

Have Sisters units (maybe just the Vets, maybe all, depending on balance) add X number of dice to the psychic phase for dispel only. Similar to Dwarf Runesmiths from Fantasy. This would not only help the army, but boost the idea of the Sister's Faith protecting them from the Warp and it's evils.

Heavy Sisters: The idea of Heavy/Centurian-esque sisters has already been mentioned here, so I'll just make this a chime in. Having a Sister of Battle (wo)manning a Baroque assault suit of sorts would be pretty awesome, like a Centurian with a freakin' Altar on top! Extra firepower, durability and firepower? Score.

More Assault: While the Sisters shouldn't be hard hitting like the Blood Angels by virtue of still being human (WS and such, that is fine). But, once again, their Faith could use to their advantage. A boost to Faith powers being more than just one shot effects AND being more proactive in killing enemies. A hammerhand like Faith Power could go well, or even just turning their Shield of Faith into a serious indestructible shield (+1 to armor? Feel no Pain? Higher Invul?), making them an unkillable tarpit. Just some ideas to make the inevitable combat from being close enough to Melta your face off a bit better.

Faith!: The big deal here. Right now, their Faith powers are nice, but rather flat. The abilities themselves are good, but the one shot nature and requirement of a Leadership test makes them...meh. Going back to a Faith Point system, with increased numbers, rewarding you for number of Sisters, and giving you one shot Faith Points when they die (so even if a squad is gunned down in the first turn they still give Faith points). This can also replace the Psychic Phase for them.

In addition to the system reboot, make the Faith rewards more universal. Rending is nice, how about a Faith power that gives the ENTIRE army that (just make sure it is expensive to warrant the power and boom, balance. Right, GW......right?) I just feel a Cannoness being the only one giving Hatred, or whatever, just feels off, and the bonuses should be an army thing, or at LEAST being able to spread it to where it's needed.

That, combined with a few great Plastic sisters kits, and I would die a happy believer.

@ the_scotsman

I like your more stuff from the dark age of technology thing. It makes sense. You could even have items confiscated from the hands of the Mechanicum by the Inquisition given to the Orders for safe keeping.

Also

Since they have better engineered bolters, how about melta bombs that can be thrown.

If/when Sisters get a new codex, there is defiantly work that should be done to expand the faction (in TT terms). So, some (somewhat random) ideas to follow:

Artificer Armour is somthing I think they should have greater access to, as, thematicly, expense is the primary hurdle there, and no one had money like the Ecclesiarchy. A Termie Equivalent unit with Artifice armour perhapes, or just more characters with access to it. Maybe you could give it to officers or bodyguards?

That drop-pod-chapel sounds awesome, it should be killy and also serve to buff those around it. Which leads me into another point: I think a good way to go with creating a unique mechanical feel for the army is to create some strong buffing units, lending to a sort-of centralised interdependence. Big flashy units/vehicles/characters that the 'lesser' units want to stay near for their 'inspiring' effects. Maybe make this buffing related to the Acts of Faith (which needs to be overhauled anyway).

hmmm.

They do certainly need some faster units, I do like the mech-cavalry idea (40K runs on silly/Awesome after all), and their current lack of anti air is really noticeable to me (even though I once downed a Valkyrie with bolters).

 Mr Morden wrote:
Novices would be a nice unit

I do like novices as a unit idea. & I've always liked the Crusaders from the Battle Conclave, making them an actual Adepta Sororitas Unit (female and with the appropriate style) rather than a Ecclesiarchy Unit would be something I'd be in favour of.

Would it be inappropriate for me to spruke some of my own creations at this point?

Wonderwolf wrote:
Sniper-Flamers are a must!!

Cant you ACTUALLY get that in deathwatch/killteam by being the weapon specialist?

commander dante wrote:

Wonderwolf wrote:
Sniper-Flamers are a must!!

Cant you ACTUALLY get that in deathwatch/killteam by being the weapon specialist?

They could actually make that into a unit. Make it where a battle sisters has a long range torrent weapon. GW if you're watching this please make it a thing

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No that's not what I mean. I meant more like they didn't just take a Devestator squad but make it sisters instead of SM. Or, assault marines. Or... Whatever. Sisters have always seemed like that to me, you have the heavy weapons squad, the jet pack squad, the general squad... Id rather something different, whether it's 'freakshow' or not.

Seraphim may have jump pack, but they are really different from assault marines. They do not play the same, and they do not rely on the same archetype. Assault marines use their jumppack to violently enter melee. Seraphim use their for the huge mobility to boost their gunslinger talents.
I would be fine with Sisters on bike and sisters with heavy armor if they were made different from the SM bikes and terminators in the same way. After all, nobody is comparing swooping hawks or stormboyz to assault marines.


I want my “Relics of a saint, Grail-reliquary-style” tank (or just peon-mounted altar) !

That's all I was trying to say, that I want them to be different to the space marine stuff, and then people just jumped down my throat. Superficially they've just always seemed like SM with sisters models. That's all.

zeromaeus wrote:
I like the idea of robed Repentia. Blindfolded too, possibly. A kind of "I live or die purely by the will of the Emperor" kind of thing. Just a thought.

Blindfolded combat troops seem like a great way for some catastrophic blue on blue action. Yes sisters get acts of faith, but these are supposed to represent collective miracles, rather than giving widespread ESP to troops that have been convicted of crimes against the faith.

 Flinty wrote:

zeromaeus wrote:
I like the idea of robed Repentia. Blindfolded too, possibly. A kind of "I live or die purely by the will of the Emperor" kind of thing. Just a thought.

Blindfolded combat troops seem like a great way for some catastrophic blue on blue action. Yes sisters get acts of faith, but these are supposed to represent collective miracles, rather than giving widespread ESP to troops that have been convicted of crimes against the faith.

Indeed - a blindfolded, evicerator wielding Special character on the other hand..............

How about these ideas for Sisters units.

If we went with the idea that faith points be limited each turn, I'd propose a Battle Choir of sorts that buoys the morale and generates faith points with vox units and reliquaries.

I'd also have a drop/gun ship (ala the Stormraven) that has 2 hurricane bolters on swivel mounts on the wings and some missle along with some twin linked belly or nose gun. We could have it hold 20 sisters, a rhino, or 10 seraphim. We coudl call it the Angelis Principalis.

I had an idea for group of golden winged spirits that show up via deep strike in a similar vein to Legion of the Damned, but they would be more assault troops with some empheral flames and bolt rounds. basically I would have them with a god invuln save, ignores cover on their shootign attacks and rending on all of their attacks. I pulled the idea from the Dawn of War Soulstorm.

How about sisters that ride on Harry Potter like Nimbus 40K's and get jetbike rules?

 Captain Avatar wrote:
How about sisters that ride on Harry Potter like Nimbus 40K's and get jetbike rules?

No.

Should i post a picture if a skeleton with a caption of "Cause of death: Waiting for a SoB codex and plastic sisters"

commander dante wrote:
Should i post a picture if a skeleton with a caption of "Cause of death: Waiting for a SoB codex and plastic sisters"

No i think a better picture would be a pile of dust with the caption would be more akin to the current situation.

And i really like Andrewm9's of a vehicle carrying flyer is awesome. maybe there should be a special rule for it that allows it to drop the rhino while zooming at the risk of the rhino taking glancing hit.

 Madoch1 wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Should i post a picture if a skeleton with a caption of "Cause of death: Waiting for a SoB codex and plastic sisters"

No i think a better picture would be a pile of dust with the caption would be more akin to the current situation.

And i really like Andrewm9's of a vehicle carrying flyer is awesome. maybe there should be a special rule for it that allows it to drop the rhino while zooming at the risk of the rhino taking glancing hit.

Remember when we had those rumors earlier this year and everyone was Ron Paul "ITS HAPPENING" all over the place. We were fools. :(

Sisters would be the only models I would buy. (not direct from GW) I saw that exo-lord conversion and it looks good, but not quite there for me. I am fine with boob plate taking a hike, but the sisters do have a nice aesthetic otherwise. (also dump high heels those are so stupid) Those cool mallet helmets and the cross between medieval and sci fi is neat.

nedTCM wrote:
(also dump high heels those are so stupid)

There are no high heels except on that one illustration.

 Ashiraya wrote:
WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT.

No it's not. It's what they were in third edition. They should never have been nerfed in the first place.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT.

No it's not. It's what they were in third edition. They should never have been nerfed in the first place.

Yeah i have to agree that I4 is not that OTT

It's barley above normal human. Heck, tau drones are I4.

I've also been thinking about a supplemental heavy support tank. I would call it the Purgator. It would have a thermal lance like the Imperial Knight along with a heavy flamer, twin linked heavy bolter, or a multimelta. It would also have some decent armor too. Something a little more beefy than a typical Rhino say 13/12/12 while still using the basic chassis. I always hated the idea that tanks must have 10 or 11 rear armor if they belong to the Imperium and are not a Land Raider.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Hey, I have an idea for an SoB superheavy. A baneblade, but the main gun is a giant flamer, and all the HBs can be replaced with heavy flamers and multi-meltas. The SoB with call it the "Holy Burnerator 5000", and heritcs will call it "OH GOD THE FIRE! IT BURNS! HELP ME! AAAAAAAGH!".

On a more serious note, I think an assault unit with duel wielded flamer-pistols would be fun and somewhat hilarious.

hahah In a way this is completely fitting.

We actually just did a show talking all about Adepta Sororitas...

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3642

The army is seriously lacking in units at this time unfortunately. I like the idea you present in regards to flamers and such featured heavily. All joking aside - some type of super heavy baneblade firing flamers everyone is interesting. Probably difficult to get into play unless you armed it with some long range stuff (another massive, missile firing pipe organ?)



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andrewm9 wrote:
I've also been thinking about a supplemental heavy support tank. I would call it the Purgator. It would have a thermal lance like the Imperial Knight along with a heavy flamer, twin linked heavy bolter, or a multimelta. It would also have some decent armor too. Something a little more beefy than a typical Rhino say 13/12/12 while still using the basic chassis. I always hated the idea that tanks must have 10 or 11 rear armor if they belong to the Imperium and are not a Land Raider.

Yeah I like this.

 cvtuttle wrote:


hahah In a way this is completely fitting.

We actually just did a show talking all about Adepta Sororitas...

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3642

I'm listening as I post!

I've had an idea of a unit of two battle sisters on new Broodlord Oval base carrying a reliquary or relic of some sort. Basically, each Battle Sister squad can be upgraded to have some sort of reliquary bearers that grant them certain upgrades depend on the reliquary. Things like Zealot, or Feel No Pain, etc. Kind of like a banner bearer for a squad, but on a bigger base with two Sisters carrying a relic. Depending on the cost of the reliquary bearers, they would be worth including in sisters squads even though they could be sniped out. Probably a 2 wound model (to represent both bearers) and maybe even Toughness 4, so they don't get wiped from Str 6 to give the reliquary a bit more oomph.

OP


I would like to see more units in the whole female paladin/Knight thing they have going atm. Not a fan of the BDSM repentia and torture engine stuff. Feels like it belongs in a separate army TBH.


To that end I would probably like to see Celestians have extremely ornate armor. More like Custodes and Sisters of Silence in their aesthetic with CC weapons and artificer armor.

Dominions have more of a bulky hazmat type armor. Maybe give them guns similar to what the HH pyroclasts have with the arm weapon mounts.

Make retributors more like relic bearers with crazy melta lances and braziers that shoot torrent flamer. Think censor bearers.

Centurions or Terminators. Because I like new units.

Ideally I would like to see the aesthetic of the repentia and penitent engines heavily changed. ie Repentia still wear their armor and aren't naked. Then make the PE more clearly a SoB unit. You don't have to make it a dreadnought per sae, but at least tone down the steampunk and add smoother armor plates. As it stands an Imperial Knight is closer in aesthetic to basic sisters of battle than a penitent. It canstill be a torture engine, but it shouldn't look like one and the exposed pilot is just plain silly.

I want to see the OTT Living Saint from Soulstorm as a generic unit. Dammit, if the Emperor could change forms I don't see why a girl infused with the GE power wouldn't get taller.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'd like to see Celestians restored to I4/WS4 and be given the opportunity to purchase Crusader gear (stormshield+powersword, basically) for the squad. It would add a lot, I feel, to the Sisters list.

WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT. Unless you wanna give Vanguard/Sternguard/Chosen I5. That would be fine with me.

The problem is, if Sisters have a poor statline for their points cost then you'd have to buff them in other ways. Either through Act of Faith, Army wide special rules or by giving them access to better guns and armor. I meani it is a real issue that basic SoB don't have cheap and plentiful access to their special and heavy weapons; nor access to any cool and exotic ones. I mean isn't it like 40pts for a melta pistol on Seraphim or something like that? That's half of one of the new kitted out windrider squads.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP


I would like to see more units in the whole female paladin/Knight thing they have going atm. Not a fan of the BDSM repentia and torture engine stuff. Feels like it belongs in a separate army TBH.


To that end I would probably like to see Celestians have extremely ornate armor. More like Custodes and Sisters of Silence in their aesthetic with CC weapons and artificer armor.

Dominions have more of a bulky hazmat type armor. Maybe give them guns similar to what the HH pyroclasts have with the arm weapon mounts.

Make retributors more like relic bearers with crazy melta lances and braziers that shoot torrent flamer. Think censor bearers.

Centurions or Terminators. Because I like new units.

Ideally I would like to see the aesthetic of the repentia and penitent engines heavily changed. ie Repentia still wear their armor and aren't naked. Then make the PE more clearly a SoB unit. You don't have to make it a dreadnought per sae, but at least tone down the steampunk and add smoother armor plates. As it stands an Imperial Knight is closer in aesthetic to basic sisters of battle than a penitent. It canstill be a torture engine, but it shouldn't look like one and the exposed pilot is just plain silly.

I want to see the OTT Living Saint from Soulstorm as a generic unit. Dammit, if the Emperor could change forms I don't see why a girl infused with the GE power wouldn't get taller.

I agree with this completely. i think the repentia corsets should be replaced with hooded robes. Honestly if GW did the things said above………I would blow up the moon (out of happiness of course.

However there is probably a downside to this. In all likeliness boobplate is here to stay. Most likely GW will keep boobplate in order to keep a bigger aesthetic difference between SoB and SM minis. Either that or nobody in the SoB army will get a helmet. Personally i'd love to see an end to boobplate. Maybe they'll get rid of it in a codex update or two….(translation 30 years)

PEngines aren't meant to protect the pilot... it's a tool for absolving the heretic strapped to its front, and only in death can a heretic be absolved of sin. The "pilot" is actually fairly incidental to the whole thing.

Same with Repentia. They're not expecting... or even hoping... to survive contact with the enemy. Again, absolution of sins is earned through death in the Emperor's service.

epronovost wrote:
Personnaly, I wouldn't change the stats of the marines ones because I think the average Sister is I 3, but nearly 4

There is nothing suggesting SoB are superhumanly fast.

In fact, their humanity is supposed to be a big part of what sets them apart from their larger male boltgun-and-PA-using friends, together with larger emphasis on faith, stylised equipment and reduced armour design competence. Buffing them up to superhumanity removes a big part of what makes them unique - that they do their sick BS with flamer and boltgun without going semisuperman in the process.




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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The problem is, if Sisters have a poor statline for their points cost then you'd have to buff them in other ways. Either through Act of Faith, Army wide special rules or by giving them access to better guns and armor. I meani it is a real issue that basic SoB don't have cheap and plentiful access to their special and heavy weapons; nor access to any cool and exotic ones. I mean isn't it like 40pts for a melta pistol on Seraphim or something like that? That's half of one of the new kitted out windrider squads.

Or change nothing about their stats, and just reduce their points cost.




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 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT.

No it's not. It's what they were in third edition. They should never have been nerfed in the first place.

An entirely appropriate nerf.

Or buff SM/CSM to I5. Either works for me. But superhuman speed should be superhuman, not, well, human.

Either way, game and lore has moved on, especially in the space of four editions.

Initiative isn't all speed. It's also reaction time. I4 would be expert unaided human, something that fits for advanced sister's units.

And, keep in mind, rules do not always line up with fluff. You have to look at balance too. I4 on a melee or advanced unit makes sense.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Initiative isn't all speed. It's also reaction time. I4 would be expert unaided human, something that fits for advanced sister's units.

And, keep in mind, rules do not always line up with fluff. You have to look at balance too. I4 on a melee or advanced unit makes sense.

Due to the natural human nerve reaction speed, SoB reactions have a hard cap. It takes 0,5 seconds for the information your eyes register to reach and be processed by the brain into something you see and understand. Once you factor in the decision to make a physical reaction (even if it is just a reflex) and then the information reaching the relevant body parts, you're looking at even more time.

In comparison, SM have repeatedly shown themselves as having millisecond or lower reaction times due to their enhanced bodies. They're not even close to comparable - it's like a Fire Warrior wrestling a Warboss.

I am just arguing from a lore standpoint. I am not convinced that I4 will make a meaningful difference in balance terms. Don't boost I and drop price instead I say.

 Ashiraya wrote:

I am just arguing from a lore standpoint. I am not convinced that I4 will make a meaningful difference in balance terms. Don't boost I and drop price instead I say.

If you drop the price, and don't boost I, they won't be taken. Without I4 a non-tanky melee unit is so at so severe a disadvantage it's pointless.
If you want, we'll add two lines to Celestian fluff. "Exemplar warriors with years of experience and faith beyond reckoning, a Sister inducted to the Celestians undergoes gene therapy, and the Ecchelsiarchy uses it's influence to ensure they transcend those of lesser faith. To this end, all are given over to the care of the Mechanicum, only for long enough to receive enhancement that they may know no equal".

Hey, maybe I'll shorthand that. ATSKNE. +1 to LD, WS, I, A and S.

I like most of these ideas. I'd like a churchy baneblade, something close to the Fortress of Arrogance (with motifs) would look very fitting. I also like the idea of a heavy assault unit.
Not so sold on snipers. Sisters are close ranged, but adding them couldn't possibly be a detriment. I'd just avoid them.
Not sure on bikes either. But, variety is the spice of life, so why not?

I disagree with an INT buff to sisters. There needs to be more lower INT units in the game both for fluff and gameplay purposes. It makes the SM advantage more meaningful. I could get behind a fluffy augmented unit that had higher INT, but any unit like that should be repentia. Otherwise you are creating a why use this unit when the other exists situation. And in that case, you would have to increase the Repentia price.

If they rescaled power weapons to make more sense it would be less of an issue. The axe is easily the best weapon and in most cases it the only choice if you want to spend money on an upgrade. The price basically makes it pointless for IG or Sisters to grab items in most cases. The sword does nothing special and the maul and lance are under powered.

Should be like this:

Maul: S +1 AP 4 Concussive - 5 point upgrade - Light Unit killer
Heavy Maul: S +2 AP 4, Two Handed, Concussive, Unwieldy- 10 upgrade - Light Vehicle Killer
Lance: Charge S +1 Int +1 AP 3, S User, Int User, AP 4 - 5 points - Bargin MEQ killer for models that are destined to die, powerful but WS offset means it is a risky choice.
Sword: S User Int +1 AP 3 - 10 points - MEQ Killer - Makes it easier for lower units to fight MEQ, a Power Sword MEQ has a significant advantage against MEQ opponents and also gives them a better chance against Eldar.
Axe: S +1 AP 2 Unwieldy- 15 points - Bargin TEQ Killer
Power Fist SX2 AP 2 Unwieldy - 25 - Everything Killer

With the system changed, lower int models like Guardsmen or Sisters would not be afraid of taking different weapon types on Sgt because their is a useful increase in power for cost. And higher int units like Space Marines have a reason to take lower tiered weapons because they are cheaper. Special Weapon weapons like Huskblades, Lightning Claws and Eviscerators etc etc would also need a redo as well, but I think it would really improve the system on a whole if it was better thought out maybe not with my choices but something along these lines to make them more balanced.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Initiative isn't all speed. It's also reaction time. I4 would be expert unaided human, something that fits for advanced sister's units.

And, keep in mind, rules do not always line up with fluff. You have to look at balance too. I4 on a melee or advanced unit makes sense.

Due to the natural human nerve reaction speed, SoB reactions have a hard cap. It takes 0,5 seconds for the information your eyes register to reach and be processed by the brain into something you see and understand. Once you factor in the decision to make a physical reaction (even if it is just a reflex) and then the information reaching the relevant body parts, you're looking at even more time.
.

Current humans have a nerve system that in total reaction time including info being sent to the brain (Only taking .20 seconds ) is less than half a second. And given that it is said in the fluff that the SoB are trained to the highest level without (major) biological augmentation it would make sense that they would have have a better than average initiative. and don't go siting sm as a reason not to raise initiative, yes they are supposed to be big and fast, but big stuff takes longer to get moving. it almost seems like sm initiative should be lowered.

Nah, I4 is good for SM. They are better than your average human. And they aren't slow and lumbering, just big.

 Madoch1 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Initiative isn't all speed. It's also reaction time. I4 would be expert unaided human, something that fits for advanced sister's units.

And, keep in mind, rules do not always line up with fluff. You have to look at balance too. I4 on a melee or advanced unit makes sense.

Due to the natural human nerve reaction speed, SoB reactions have a hard cap. It takes 0,5 seconds for the information your eyes register to reach and be processed by the brain into something you see and understand. Once you factor in the decision to make a physical reaction (even if it is just a reflex) and then the information reaching the relevant body parts, you're looking at even more time.
.

Current humans have a nerve system that in total reaction time including info being sent to the brain (Only taking .018 seconds ) is less than half a second. And given that it is said in the fluff that the SoB are trained to the highest level without (major) biological augmentation it would make sense that they would have have a better than average initiative. and don't go siting sm as a reason not to raise initiative, yes they are supposed to be big and fast, but big stuff takes longer to get moving. it almost seems like sm initiative should be lowered.

Bigger things take longer to get moving, yet humans are still faster than snails. Remarkable, isn't it?

Marines are way faster than humans. They are enhanced to the point where they aren't really human anymore. But as said, this is all from a lore viewpoint.


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 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
If you drop the price, and don't boost I, they won't be taken. Without I4 a non-tanky melee unit is so at so severe a disadvantage it's pointless.

My cultists do just fine. Celestians should be more expensive but they also have PA, WS4, A2...

Lowering their base price and giving them access to special melee weapons seems fair.

@Ashiraya and nedTCM

Initiative 4 isn't superhuman speed it's maximum speed for a human. Tempestor Prime are initiative 4 and they aren't enhanced either. Hell, in fifth eddition and early sixth, Marbo had initiative 5 and he wasn't enhanced either he was just that badass.

Yes, it makes Marines compartively a bit weaker in close combat especially if you raise their WS to 4 like I suggested it both in this thread and in my codex. Normal Space Marines are initiative 4, normal humans are initiative 3, heroic humans are initiative 4 and heroic Space Marines are initiative 5. Thus, Sisters, being all heroic level humans, should all have initiative 4 (or at least Canoness, Palatine, Celestial and Seraphim). After all, Sisters are supposed to be even better than Scions who are themselves amongst the best non Space Marines warriors in the Imperium.

This still represent Space Marines being faster than human being, it just blurr the line a bit when it comes to exceptionnal individuals. It's just like eldar who are faster than humans and Space Marines, yet the best Space Marines can match eldar warrior speed and reflex, but not the very best eldar. Initiative is a bit of a strange stats, it's the only «physical» stats that offer some variability from individual of the same race (and codex) to varie a bit from heroes, elite troopers and regular ones.

Are Sisters supposed to be better than Scions now?

@Ashiraya

While not explicitly stated (like in Sisters are even better than Scions), the Adpetas Sororitas fluff strongly suggest that Sisters Millitant are better trained, better equipped, more motivated and better cared for than Scions.

In the Millitarum Tempestus Codex, the now go to source for fluff about Scions, the Adeptas Sororitas has first pick when it comes to select girls from Schola Progenium, then it's the Officio Prefectus (AKA the Commissariat and all that surround it) than it's the Ordo Tempestus (AKA the Scions academy and all that surround it). This means Scions don't have access to the very best recruits because these become either commissars or Sisters. It also explain why women are a minority in the Commissariat (if you read some Gaunt Ghost, the subject his touched when Gaunt falls under the supervision of a female Commissar Lord which he comment being a rare thing).

Furthermore, when reading Sisters Codex and fluff, the exploits, training and traditions of the Adeptas Sororitas appears much more impressive than those of the Scions (which are still very cool and impressive in my opinion mind you) and they usually operate in even dire situations. In fact, when it comes to the Sisterhood greatest accomplishment and especially their genesis, they can match in term of awesome those of the Space Marines. This leads me to believe that they are indeed superior combattant, yet Scions are tailling them rather closely.

I would say the debate Scions vs Sisters falls in the same categorie than the Cadian vs Armaggedon troopers. In the fluff cadians are insanly well trained guardsmen (they need to, their job is to repel veteran Space Marine assaults). On the other hand, the Steel Legion is mostly made of violent gangsters with relatively little formal milliary training. Thus I would be of the opinion that Cadians are much better guardsmen even if the fluff doesn't clearly mention it.

Of course this is all open for debate. Personnaly, if you want to continue debating with me (which could be intersting) on what stats and abilities Sisters should have compared to others, I would propose you to do it on another thread to prevent it from derailing completly. I would suggest the page I use for my fan made Sister Codex. This way you would have a good idea about what I think about the subject and what I think is reasonable. What do you think about it?

fwiw here's a list of all the Humans (I think) in the game with I4 or better:

Guard - Colour Sergeant Kell (I4), Tempestor Prime (I4)

Sisters - Canoness (I4), Uriah Jacobus (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6), Celestine (I7).

Inquisition - Inquisitors (I4), Coteaz (I4), Karamazov (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6).

Skitarii - Sicarian Infiltrators (I4), Sicarian Ruststalkers (I4).

Officio Assassinorum - Eversor, Callidus, Culexus and Vindicare are all I7.


I think the most meaningful examples are the Tempestor Prime and the Skitarii Elites. If Stormtroopers and the Mechanicus can have I4 Infantry, I fail to see why Sisters of Battle wouldn't either. Celestians seem a likely choice to be I4 to me, considering they are the elite veterans and that would help set them apart from regular Battle Sisters.

 GoonBandito wrote:
fwiw here's a list of all the Humans (I think) in the game with I4 or better:

Guard - Colour Sergeant Kell (I4), Tempestor Prime (I4)

Sisters - Canoness (I4), Uriah Jacobus (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6), Celestine (I7).

Inquisition - Inquisitors (I4), Coteaz (I4), Karamazov (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6).

Skitarii - Sicarian Infiltrators (I4), Sicarian Ruststalkers (I4).

Officio Assassinorum - Eversor, Callidus, Culexus and Vindicare are all I7.


I think the most meaningful examples are the Tempestor Prime and the Skitarii Elites. If Stormtroopers and the Mechanicus can have I4 Infantry, I fail to see why Sisters of Battle wouldn't either. Celestians seem a likely choice to be I4 to me, considering they are the elite veterans and that would help set them apart from regular Battle Sisters.

Ruststalkers and Sicarian infiltrators aren't just humans. They're almost entirely machine by the time they make their way into those ranks.

I don't agree that the Tempestor should have I4 either, but then, he's a high-ranking CO of an already extremely elite unit.

Mechanicus Sicarians are extremely heavily augmented - have you even seen their models?

 Ashiraya wrote:


My cultists do just fine. Celestians should be more expensive but they also have PA, WS4, A2...

Lowering their base price and giving them access to special melee weapons seems fair.

Don't cultists cost 4-5 points? At that point, although not tanks, they have huge numbers. And cultists aren't exactly meant to be killing things.... Once you start paying for something other then a mook, there needs to be a certain baseline for efficiency.

However, a BSS costs 12pts. At 14 points as it stands, a Celestian cost too much. They are inferior to marines, and cost the same. By dropping their points cost, what happens then? BSS would have to go down. An 8pt BSS isn't something I want, particularly. So, to prevent that, the more logical method is to buff Celestians. I4 is hardly immersion or game breaking.

Giving them access to the Melee Weapons list would go a ways as well.

 GoonBandito wrote:
fwiw here's a list of all the Humans (I think) in the game with I4 or better:

Guard - Colour Sergeant Kell (I4), Tempestor Prime (I4)

Sisters - Canoness (I4), Uriah Jacobus (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6), Celestine (I7).

Inquisition - Inquisitors (I4), Coteaz (I4), Karamazov (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6).

Skitarii - Sicarian Infiltrators (I4), Sicarian Ruststalkers (I4).

Officio Assassinorum - Eversor, Callidus, Culexus and Vindicare are all I7.


I think the most meaningful examples are the Tempestor Prime and the Skitarii Elites. If Stormtroopers and the Mechanicus can have I4 Infantry, I fail to see why Sisters of Battle wouldn't either. Celestians seem a likely choice to be I4 to me, considering they are the elite veterans and that would help set them apart from regular Battle Sisters.

Very helpful. While the Skitarii hardly count as unmodified humans, from everything I've read, the Dealth Cultists are just folks-- yet they have freaking I:6.

I'd been in the "I:4 is OP for humans" camp, but now I've changed my mind.

Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

 SisterSydney wrote:
While the Skitarii are hardly modified humans

You demand a lot from a guy before you will admit he's modified!

You're saying this guy is "hardly modified." (Remember, NORMAL skitarii, like Vanguard and Rangers have I3.)

Whoops, I got lost in my double negative there. I meant to type "hardly unmodified." Edit time!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

Eldar are not augmented but are higher initiative than most other un-augmented races, often being I 6

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

Eldar are not augmented but are higher initiative than most other un-augmented races, often being I 6

Other than the special charters, I thought they mostly topped out at at 5. Been a while since I have had eldar try and assault me, so my memory might be fuzzy.

Initiative isn't just reaction speed though. It's how fast you fight. A marine doesn't become a child when he picks up a hammer. He's just fighting with an awkward weapon. And chainswords aren't used for surgery either. They're big tearing weapons. A space marine can probably react to a new threat in no-time, but he still fights like a brute. DCA fight with needle point swords that they spend their whole life not just using but mastering completely. The space marine is fast by human standards, but he has no more an assassin's training than a guardsman does. In fact, he probably relies a little too much on his built in strengths. I6 might be a little extreme, but i see no problem with trained humans being faster in combat than a space marine

Well, it's possible the Death Cults also take drugs or activate latent psychic talents, since they're mysterious weirdos.

Deathcults probably have something special there, yes. They've always been very odd.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

Eldar are not augmented but are higher initiative than most other un-augmented races, often being I 6

Other than the special charters, I thought they mostly topped out at at 5. Been a while since I have had eldar try and assault me, so my memory might be fuzzy.

Normal Eldar soldiers have I5. Exarchs and above have I6 as far as I know. Archons have I8. Succubi too (?)

In my knowledge, has a ranking of Initiative we would have the following:

initiative 1: pretty much nothing except non charging carnifex during 5th eddition and nurgle zombies

initiative 2: tau fire warrior, gretchin, ork boys, necron warriors and immortal

initiative 3: guardsmen, Scions, Sisters, elite tau warrior, nobz, Plague Marines, kroot warrior, skitarii

initiative 4: Space Marines (chaos and loyal), Tempestor Prime, Inquisitor, eldar guardien pre-sixth eddition, ork warboss, tau commander, gaunts and tyranid warriors, elite skitarii

Initiative 5: eldar aspect warriors, new guardians, kabalite, Space Marine heroes

Initiative 6: dark eldar witch, deathcult assassin, eldar heroes, exarchs, vespid, Lucius, harlequins

initiative 7: dark eldar archon, phoenix lord, Saint Celestine

initiative 8: succubus

initative 9: Lelith, Daemon Prince

iniative 10: Solitaire, Avatar of Khaine, Keeper of Secrets

With that in mind, I don't think initiative 4 Sisters are far-fetch or broken. It's rather reasonnable especially if you only give it to veterans and heroes.

I think a cool idea would be a take on the ww2 rocket truck but instead of rockets it's a hotshot lasgun battery that can knock planes out of the sky and even if it's shooting at ground targets it's the equivalent of 16 las rifles. I think that would be a cool idea

Another concept I like is a tank with a crew trapped inside. They only are ever let out if they return from the battle victorious, inside all they can hear is recordings of chants and the tanks mechanical parts. The idea being that this is a penitent engine for tank crew members

I think the SoB should have a large Land Raider crusader sized transport in the form of a mobile chapel or shrine. It's not fast but it'll move a good number of people around; it should almost be like a parade float in terms of speed but creating this faith boosting aura around it.

I've always thought that Centurions as these power armored guys inside exoskeletons conceptually worked better for Sisters of battle. I want a similar exoskeletons but I see it as smaller and armed with Storm bolters, meltaguns, and flamers... With the option to upgrade one of the three to the "heavy" version of one of those weapons.

I think SoB should have a new derivation of the Valkyrie.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathcults probably have something special there, yes. They've always been very odd.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

Eldar are not augmented but are higher initiative than most other un-augmented races, often being I 6

Other than the special charters, I thought they mostly topped out at at 5. Been a while since I have had eldar try and assault me, so my memory might be fuzzy.

Normal Eldar soldiers have I5. Exarchs and above have I6 as far as I know. Archons have I8. Succubi too (?)

Wow, my memory is bad.

Give 'em a modernized version of this as a unique transport:

just use female deoderant.





Edit:I joke, but I could make a pretty cool open-topped transport out of something like that.

ionusx wrote:IAnother concept I like is a tank with a crew trapped inside. They only are ever let out if they return from the battle victorious, inside all they can hear is recordings of chants and the tanks mechanical parts. The idea being that this is a penitent engine for tank crew members

Oh my god someone make this now I want it I want it my precioussssss

I'm trying to think how you'd depict it rules-wise, since tanks are already Fearless and things like Rage or Rampage don't affect them. Maybe It Will Not Die and Fear?

aka_mythos wrote:I think the SoB should have a large Land Raider crusader sized transport in the form of a mobile chapel or shrine. It's not fast but it'll move a good number of people around; it should almost be like a parade float in terms of speed but creating this faith boosting aura around it....

Try the homebrewed Deliverer (open topped) in my fandex.

aka_mythos wrote:I think SoB should have a new derivation of the Valkyrie.

Sororitas Valkyrie, Victoria (Vendetta that switches lascannon for multimeltas), and Virago (replaces transport capacity with Exorcist Fething Missile Launcher).

RaptorusRex wrote:Give 'em a modernized version of this as a unique transport:

Spoiler:

Cool, but it looks like some kind of skimmer, and those are muy rare in the Imperium as currently envisioned. I can't think of any except Land Speeders and that one Marine special character's special bike.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think the SoB should have a large Land Raider crusader sized transport in the form of a mobile chapel or shrine. It's not fast but it'll move a good number of people around; it should almost be like a parade float in terms of speed but creating this faith boosting aura around it.

I've always thought that Centurions as these power armored guys inside exoskeletons conceptually worked better for Sisters of battle. I want a similar exoskeletons but I see it as smaller and armed with Storm bolters, meltaguns, and flamers... With the option to upgrade one of the three to the "heavy" version of one of those weapons.

I think SoB should have a new derivation of the Valkyrie.

Yes absolutely. do all you can to make this happen. Spam call GW. no no even better. Spam call Mr. Kirby

I think the biggest thing that has left SoB behind with the edition changes is the lack of mobility option.

Another idea I had but was something a little more far fetched was a group of SoB that teleport to deepstrike, using only their strength of faith to survive the exposure to the warp. That teleporting is their act of faith and they have to test on the turn the come in, a failure would result in some number of wounds that they could then take a save against.

I think Sister Hospitalars should be one of those 3 for 1 elite choice where each can be assigned to a squad and grant a FNP save.

I also had the idea of those SoB tasked with protecting frontier shrines and chapels... some sort of unit that emphasized defense; I'm picturing slow and purposeful sisters with combat shields and an improved overwatch.

 SisterSydney wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think SoB should have a new derivation of the Valkyrie.

Sororitas Valkyrie, Victoria (Vendetta that switches lascannon for multimeltas), and Virago (replaces transport capacity with Exorcist Fething Missile Launcher).

I'm also thinking the ability to drop napalm would be appropriate too.


I wonder if we can think of some interesting special character.

I'd like to see us get a chariot. Make it nice and baroque with a pulpit for some crazed confessor/sister to preach from while it is pulled by penitents/heretics medieval style. Make it so that it buffs nearby units while burning nearby enemy units.

I'd also like to see Frateris Militia make a return. It's crazy to think that GW made actual models for them only for them to have legal rules for less then a year.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Cool, but it looks like some kind of skimmer, and those are muy rare in the Imperium as currently envisioned.

If only the Ecclesiarchy was one of the most powerful and richest organization in the full Imperium, they would then be the perfect suspect for claiming one of those very rare designs for their own…

 Ashiraya wrote:

An entirely appropriate nerf.

Or buff SM/CSM to I5. Either works for me. But superhuman speed should be superhuman, not, well, human.

Either way, game and lore has moved on, especially in the space of four editions.

I4 isn't superhuman, stop making things up.

There is also no reason for marines to be I5. That would be rmoronic. Marines aren't Eldar.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

An entirely appropriate nerf.

Or buff SM/CSM to I5. Either works for me. But superhuman speed should be superhuman, not, well, human.

Either way, game and lore has moved on, especially in the space of four editions.

I4 isn't superhuman, stop making things up.

There is also no reason for marines to be I5. That would be rmoronic. Marines aren't Eldar.

Yes it is. Otherwise all IG would have the same stats as Marines. There are only a few normal humans that have I4. Most of the ones that have it are augmented.

Reguardless, not everything is based on fluff. It makes sense on a balance level, and that's enough. Not everything has to be how it would be in the fluff. Else Tau would all be at least BS4, and kroot would be amazing in close combat.

nedTCM wrote:


Yes it is. Otherwise all IG would have the same stats as Marines.

Your premise is nonsense. Just because the average, barely trained guardsman is I3 doesn't mean that ALL humans must be I3, including veterans amongst veterans whom are the best fighters amongst a group of soldiers that are described as equal in capability and skill to marines. There's no logic there.

 Melissia wrote:

nedTCM wrote:


Yes it is. Otherwise all IG would have the same stats as Marines.

Your premise is nonsense. Just because the average, barely trained guardsman is I3 doesn't mean that ALL humans must be I3, including veterans amongst veterans whom are the best fighters amongst a group of soldiers that are described as equal in capability and skill to marines. There's no logic there.

The game is literally designed that way. Catachans train in hand to hand since pretty much birth they are I3 in IG book and their Catachan book. Stormtroopers and Commissars who train from the start as well and everyone except the highest ranking Stormtrooper is I3. Regular Skitarii have heavy augments and then have I3 until they replace most of their body to the point of being beyond human in which they are only granted I4. Nearly every IG human character except for Kell and Marbo has I3. In most cases, experience and training is translated through weapon skill, which is why most characters have that higher score in WS.

The only ones that are routinely I4 are Inquisitors and they have access to things that others do not. Characters like Marbo and Kell are special cases. Turning every rank and file sister into I4 makes no sense. They have no special augments, no black carapace to interface with their armor, and no reason other than you claiming their training is so great it transcends everyone else in the galaxy. Fluff wise I4 makes no sense. It also is a bad decision game play wise as it is another step in making everyone just have Marine stats and trivializing the differences in factions.

@nedTCM

That's why we are proposing for veteran and heroic Sisters to have initiative 4, not all basic Sisters. You are arguing against a strawman which is by definition pointless. All races, including humans, in the game have different initiative stats between grunts, elites and heroes status. If 1 Space Marine out of a 100 his so good and fast that he can receive an extra point here, it would be logical for the 1% of the best trained human to have an extra point too. After all, what counts for Space Marines, eldars, orks and tau should logically count for human too.

In fact, making Sister a little bit better would improve difference in factions. This way, Skitarii, Veteran guardsmen, Scions and Sisters would all have a little difference that's not only covered by the kind of guns and armor they use. Skitarii are relentless and feel no pain to represent their heavy bionics, Scions have deep strike and move through cover to represent their special ops training, veteran guardsmen are the basic build for an elite human soldier, Sisters have a little bit more stats and represent the top of human fighting skills and finally Space Marines top them all with extra know no fear, endurence and strength (and still a bit more speed overall).

Celestians are veterans amongst veterans, not basic grunts.

The game is NOT "designed that way".

You're using arguments with no basis.

epronovost wrote:
@nedTCM

That's why we are proposing for veteran and heroic Sisters to have initiative 4, not all basic Sisters. You are arguing against a strawman which is by definition pointless. All races, including humans, in the game have different initiative stats between grunts, elites and heroes status. If 1 Space Marine out of a 100 his so good and fast that he can receive an extra point here, it would be logical for the 1% of the best trained human to have an extra point too. After all, what counts for Space Marines, eldars, orks and tau should logically count for human too.

In fact, making Sister a little bit better would improve difference in factions. This way, Skitarii, Veteran guardsmen, Scions and Sisters would all have a little difference that's not only covered by the kind of guns and armor they use. Skitarii are relentless and feel no pain to represent their heavy bionics, Scions have deep strike and move through cover to represent their special ops training, veteran guardsmen are the basic build for an elite human soldier, Sisters have a little bit more stats and represent the top of human fighting skills and finally Space Marines top them all with extra know no fear, endurence and strength (and still a bit more speed overall).

You are ignoring the crux of my argument and saying it is strawman so it is pointless. Your own argument provides nothing as all it does is say my argument is pointless and that yours, for which you provide no examples for, is in fact the correct.

Furthermore, I didn't misrepresent the position. The arrangement being made was that I4 doesn't represent super human and that Celstians should be I4 because they are the better trained. I disputed that by saying over several books better training is not represented by an increase in Int. When you say all races have different Int stats between grunts and elites I don't see that so please point it out. That only happens when you compare HQs with with other FOC choices (there may be a few exceptions) or when the unit itself is drastically different (for example a boy vs a nob or a human vs a ratling). What I do see is the more is that WS or BS is the stat changed by moving from basic grunt to more elite units. The examples I provided are above. Celestians may be elite, but they still are the regular sisters with more experience. That is should be a WS or BS change in my opinion not a Int change.

You claiming that it would improve differences in factions is opinion just like me claiming it would make it worse. Sisters has power armor, shield of faith.act of faith, and standard BS4 to represent their training. I don't think they need something like int to better represent their fluff.

Your argument falls flat on its face given that Celestians were I4 from 3rd to the end of 5th. The fact that they were that in the past is evidence enough that your marinewank of an idea is utter nonsense.

 Melissia wrote:
Your argument falls flat on its face given that Celestians were I4 from 3rd to the end of 5th. The fact that they were that in the past is evidence enough that your marinewank of an idea is utter nonsense.

That doesn't prove anything. Stats were different for a lot of models in the past. You could easily make the opposite argument that they were correcting a past mistake or that they wanted to change the fluff.

nedTCM wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your argument falls flat on its face given that Celestians were I4 from 3rd to the end of 5th. The fact that they were that in the past is evidence enough that your marinewank of an idea is utter nonsense.

That doesn't prove anything.

It proves that your ideas are anything but set in stone, and are really not be at all representative of how the stats should be interpreted.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

An entirely appropriate nerf.

Or buff SM/CSM to I5. Either works for me. But superhuman speed should be superhuman, not, well, human.

Either way, game and lore has moved on, especially in the space of four editions.

I4 isn't superhuman, stop making things up.

I never said I4 was. Do not assign assertions onto me that I have not made.

I said that superhuman speed (which Astartes possess) should be superhuman (beyond human limits). I4 is not. Giving Celestians I4 and SM/CSM I5 seems ideal, although the presence of Death Cult Assassins shows that maybe it should be even higher. If so, Eldar should naturally be adjusted accordingly as well. They are faster than Marines after all.

There is also no reason for marines to be I5. That would be rmoronic. Marines aren't Eldar.

I never said they are. No need for condescension.

It is all limits of the game system, it seems. You have humans, then you have trained soldier humans that are faster, then you have elite humans who are even faster, then you have superhuman Marines who are even faster, then you have Marine elites who are even faster, then you have Eldar who are even faster...

This extreme and often exponential scaling is not limited to speed and is very widespread in the game's lore, although its funny how extremely poorly the game is able to represent it. It's like the game takes this scaling and does the complete opposite for a game, where you have humans, you have Marines who are slightly better humans, Tyranids who are basically humans too but with monsters instead of tanks, Eldar who are slightly faster humans, orks who are slightly tougher humans... It's all humanwashed. It's too much Star Wars, not enough greek myths. Everything is too equal. Guardsmen charging and cutting down Nobz is too likely. Renegade Militia butchering Howling Banshees is too likely. Gretchin shooting down an Avatar is something that should never ever happen lorewise, yet gamewise it is not only possible but surprisingly probable. You just need a 6 to wound, and then all the Avatar has is his mediocre 3+ save. Then you have injured a demigod of molten iron with a fething revolver. A gakky revolver no less. Ew ew ew. I imagine it is quite painful for SoB players too to have their Celestians get charged by Conscripts and have the Celestians get wrecked (which isn't actually that unlikely). It's like GW purposefully made everything that is strong in the lore weaker so that '''''''''''heroics'''''''' are more likely (forge the narrative etc.). I mean, as long as a Nob would slice apart a squad of IG in melee combat with absolute ease in the lore, then it's still incredible heroics for the IG to beat nobz in melee if they do it in the actual game, no? Who cares that it's really not that unlikely with how the game is designed? :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Your argument falls flat on its face given that Celestians were I4 from 3rd to the end of 5th. The fact that they were that in the past is evidence enough that your marinewank of an idea is utter nonsense.

In the past, Genestealers had nothing to do with Tyranids. Slann and Zoats walked the battlefields. That was earlier than 3rd, but still equally outdated.

Times change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Reguardless, not everything is based on fluff. It makes sense on a balance level, and that's enough. Not everything has to be how it would be in the fluff. Else Tau would all be at least BS4, and kroot would be amazing in close combat.

True. The game is more an 'arcade' style game. Despite what GW says, it really is not suitable for immersion and narrative, as noted above. RPGs should be used for that.

It should be noted that I do not hate Battle Sisters. The boobplate is cringy but I really want to like them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I said that superhuman speed (which Astartes possess)

They have not been shown to possess noticeably greater speed than trained humans.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That said, they are still human - that is what they are.

Do you, or do you not believe that I4 is inhuman.

You claim you don't believe that, but you constantly insinuate it is. Make up your mind.

I believe that Marines possess inhuman speed, something consistently supported by the game's background (outside of rare outliers like Cain). I do not think I4 perfectly represents it, although I4 human models are so rare so it's not a huge deal despite the inconsistency.

I4 Celestians and I5 Marines would be ideal, though many other things would need adjusting as well. Adjusting just Celestians or adjusting nothing would leave problems.

In case you want it, I can provide at least ten separate lore references to Marine superhuman speed, just off the top of my head. Shall I?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I believe that Marines possess inhuman speed, something consistently supported by the game's background

GW lore frequently describes humans having "inhuman speed". Claiming that this is something unachievable by humans is thus utter crap.

It's not a statement of fact, it's just an overused descriptor by lazy authors to describe someone going "you know, really fast, I mean oh my gosh".

There is no reason for MArines to be I5 except for an irrational desire for some boring, unfluffy "movie marines" nonsense.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I believe that Marines possess inhuman speed, something consistently supported by the game's background

No it's not.

There are always rare outliers like Cain, but for each one of those, we have an equally unlikely outlier of a Marine running at supersonic speeds, killing hundreds of DE alone, and similar.

Once we account for the outlier factor (which can handily be dismissed as propaganda, or counterpropaganda as appropriate), we get a consistent result. And that result is superhuman speed.

So in the current state of the game, I do not think I4 for Celestians is the answer. (Cheaper?) special melee weapons + price drop + special acts of faith for more attacks/FNP/hatred? That sounds better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
It's not a statement of fact, it's just an overused descriptor by lazy authors to describe someone going "you know, really fast, I mean oh my gosh".

That is your opinion. It's not just 'superhuman etc', it says 'superhuman' and then shows them doing superhuman things (like striking three times per second with large weapons).

 Ashiraya wrote:
I do not think I4 for Celestians is the answer.

If you don't believe that this is the answer, then perhaps you should give an alternative. As it is, taking Celestians are utterly pointless because of the unnecessary, unfluffy, and irrational nerf that you support.

 Melissia wrote:
There is no reason for MArines to be I5 except for an irrational desire for some boring, unfluffy "movie marines" nonsense.

At this point I am starting to wonder if you have an axe to grind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
(Cheaper?) special melee weapons + price drop + special acts of faith for more attacks/FNP/hatred

That is what I suggest.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is no reason for MArines to be I5 except for an irrational desire for some boring, unfluffy "movie marines" nonsense.

At this point I am starting to wonder if you have an axe to grind.

So you don't have a workable alternative, then, as you choose to focus on this instead of providing one?

In addition to what I said above, maybe some other special rule?

Like, 'Sacred Hunt'. PE: Chosen enemy unit/unit type.

That 'strike after death' thing Repentia used to have, as well. NONNNNE CAN STAY THE EMPEROR'S RETRIBUTION.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
(Cheaper?) special melee weapons + price drop + special acts of faith for more attacks/FNP/hatred

That is what I suggest.

So instead of doing the simple, rational thing and just giving them I4 like the lore suggests, you would haphazardly slap on a random assortment of special rules and turn an elite unit of humanity's finest infantry in to cheap cannon fodder.

And you expect me to think this is a good thing.

Why?

What makes I4 so much more important than any of that?

You strike simultaneously with MEQ with your two S3 AP- attacks, wohooo! That is totally going to be better than special weapons.

There are also zero lore mentions of Celestians being faster than regular humans like Guardsmen. Zero! Not a single one!

While not a new unit, I would like to see a sort of a thematic shift. This "nuns with guns" thing is growing old, so I think some refreshment would serve the Sisters right. For example, they could return to their witch-hunter roots and become the same thing for heretics/psykers than the Grey Knights for daemons: a rather shadowy, secretive organization operating above and beyond normal Imperial jurisdiction, tasked to keep in check a very specific threat. They could even get a face-lift with a new, more "advanced" design like this:


Otherwise, for a new unit, I want the Faithknight .

That is very cool!

(Except the Faithknight.)

 Ashiraya wrote:
What makes I4 so much more important than any of that?

You're arguing for a nerf I never agreed with in the first place. Why do you think I am going to be easy on your arguments?

So I repeat: You state that you want to turn the most elite of humanity's infantry in to cheaper cannon fodder with a slapped on, haphazard assortment of special rules and a nerf to their statline that I strongly disagree with. Why on Earth do you think I would like this? Hell, your objection to I4 not making a big difference also applies to your motley assortment of special rules . None of them would change the fact that the elite Celestians would be hitting at I3 S3 AP-.

And turning your argument around, there's literally nothing in the lore that says Sisters are slower than Marines, while there's quite a few mentions of Sisters being equal to Marines in combat prowess. And Celestians are the top fighters amongst Sisters, whom in previous editions were one of the most skilled (in terms of to-hit rolls) close combat infantry squads in the game.

Marines are faster than humans, as said, and last I checked all SoB are human (except the supersaiyan Living Saints).

Don't throw the nerf thing at me. GW nerfed that, it's just a nerf I think is a non-issue.

The "nuns with guns" thing is what they've always been (although it's a fan-created reductive explanation of the faction), even when they were the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus (which is the witch-hunting arm of the Inquisition). Witch-hunting is what the Sisters do.

That image isn't even all that face-lifted. It's an artist's interpretation of Sisters PA, she's wielding a chainsword and a bolt pistol. Pretty standard stuff for the Sisters.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines are faster than humans

They are faster than untrained humans. But skilled human fighters can keep up with them, and have done so time and again in the lore.

 Ashiraya wrote:
(except the supersaiyan Living Saints).

Saying crap like this while spanking off marines does not convince me one iota that you're being honest when you say you don't hate Sisters, especially when you come in this thread whining that you think marine stats are too low and try to derail the thread in to talking about marines instead.

@Melissia

Well, at the defense of Ashiraya, I don't think he hates Sisters or any Imperium based faction. In fact, during other debates of opinion, he did gave quite a few roses to both Sisters and Guardsmen. So I think he his honest when he says he likes them.

The only major difference is that he stronlgy believes that Space Marines should head, shoulder and waist above normal humans when it comes to personnal prowess (those are his word if I remember well). That's why he his opposed to any buff to human warriors if not balanced by a buff to Space Marines and by extention to some other faction. His vision of the Space Marines makes them almost inviscible demi-gods of war fighting those no one else can fights (eldars, necron, big tyranid and orks, tau battlesuits veterans, daemons, etc.).

It doesn't necessarly make the Sister weak, but it makes them almost useless next to Marines. In fact, all elite humans warriors, be they Scions, Skitarii or Sisters, become fonctionnaly sidekicks of marines while guardsmen become cheerleaders at best or sandbags at worse. He wants them good, but he doesn't want them to rival them at all. That's the difference.

I would say all armies should rival each other rather nicely else the entire setting for the game would be a joke, but that's another debate.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines are faster than humans, as said, and last I checked all SoB are human (except the supersaiyan Living Saints).

Don't throw the nerf thing at me. GW nerfed that, it's just a nerf I think is a non-issue.

Lets see if i can end this right now. I hold in my hand right a witch hunters codex from 3rd edition. I quote

"So great is their(referring to SoB in general) faith and force of will that even outnumbered they have gone toe to toe with Renegade (Chaos) Space Marines and come out victorious."

End Quotes

Given what is said above it would be safe to assume the the VETRENS (at the least) of the Adepta Sororitas are at least I4.

Yes it is a shame that Grots can take out a daemon price, and ripper swarms can kill a riptide. But in the fluff such things happen

heres an example from fifth edition Tyrandids codex.

Ultra Marines getting tied up in combat with gaunts at the siege of ultramar.

epronovost wrote:
It doesn't necessarly make the Sister weak, but it makes them almost useless next to Marines. In fact, all elite humans warriors, be they Scions, Skitarii or Sisters, become fonctionnaly sidekicks of marines while guardsmen become cheerleaders at best or sandbags at worse. He wants them good, but he doesn't want them to rival them at all. That's the difference.

No, that is not what she wants.

She wants them to be extremely good, yes, arguably better than Melissia would like them to be. But that does not make other Imperial factions useless - especially since there's just one million Marines and once the gun gets big enough they die all the same.

Marines can't hold meaningful territory due to limited numbers, and can't do stealth as well as say, Scions. Massed tank assaults and artillery sieges is generally better done by Guard as they have the numbers to do so. Even if they are extremely strong, Marines can still just do specific point attacks since they lack the numbers to conquer to defend much on their own.

 Madoch1 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines are faster than humans, as said, and last I checked all SoB are human (except the supersaiyan Living Saints).

Don't throw the nerf thing at me. GW nerfed that, it's just a nerf I think is a non-issue.

Lets see if i can end this right now. I hold in my hand right a witch hunters codex from 3rd edition. I quote

"So great is their(referring to SoB in general) faith and force of will that even outnumbered they have gone toe to toe with Renegade (Chaos) Space Marines and come out victorious."

End Quotes

Given what is said above it would be safe to assume the the VETRENS (at the least) of the Adepta Sororitas are at least I4.

Yes it is a shame that Grots can take out a daemon price, and ripper swarms can kill a riptide. But in the fluff such things happen

heres an example from fifth edition Tyrandids codex.

Ultra Marines getting tied up in combat with gaunts at the siege of ultramar.

That's third edition. That was four editions ago. Things change.

 Melissia wrote:
They are faster than untrained humans. But skilled human fighters can keep up with them, and have done so time and again in the lore.

That is far less consistent. It's about as common as Superman Marines performing demigod level feats, and I consider them about as plausible. That is, probably just propaganda.

 Melissia wrote:
Saying crap like this while spanking off marines does not convince me one iota that you're being honest when you say you don't hate Sisters, especially when you come in this thread whining that you think marine stats are too low and try to derail the thread in to talking about marines instead.

I am not attacking you. Please, do not attack me.

I called them 'supersaiyan' facetiously because they are flying, glowing people who shoot magical/psychic/whateverinterpretationyouprefer fire.

I argued alternative ways for adjusting SoB and argued with comparisons to Space Marines, which I do not think is derailing.

I still do not see what's so wrong with special weapons and abilities instead of I4. The benefits are far greater in practice.

I did not come to this thread praise Marines, though that does not mean I won't defend the reasoning behind my suggested changes if they are criticised.

@Ashiraya

The Ordo Hereticus codex was the last codex published on paper and fully supported by GW. Yes, it does count for a lot when it comes to Sister.

The first edition Rogue Trader book was also published on paper and fully supported by GW. I'd always be careful with fluff once it is a few editions old.

With far more lore examples contradicting it than supporting it, I would not be so sure it's still considered relevant.

Everyone - Just a friendly reminder to keep Rule #1 foremost in your thoughts as you type a reply in this thread...

Thanks!

 Ashiraya wrote:
That's third edition. That was four editions ago. Things change.

Actually, yes they do.

These days, Sisters defeat Space Marines far, far more often than the reverse. So... that actually goes against your argument.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That is far less consistent.

No it's not. It's extremely consistent that when a non-Marine protagonist fights a marine they do so on even grounds and usually win.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That is, probably just propaganda.

Marines being "inhumanly fast" is "probably just propaganda".

 Ashiraya wrote:
I called them 'supersaiyan' facetiously because they are flying, glowing people who shoot magical/psychic/whateverinterpretationyouprefer fire.

Their sword has a flamer attached, and you call it "magical"?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I argued alternative ways for adjusting SoB

And I objected to them because they were nonsense, turning a faction of the most elite soldiers of humanity... in to cheap cannon fodder to be spammed, attempting to make up for the nerf by adding slapping on a random assortment of special rules and hoping for the best.

 Ashiraya wrote:
and argued with comparisons to Space Marines

By complaining that Space Marines don't have high enough stats for you. Stop doing that.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I did not come to this thread praise Marines

Then stop doing it.


Basically, the equivalent to your suggestion is a chaos marine player saying "I'm tired of loyalists being equal to chaos marines, since legionnaires should be better from their ten thousand years of fighting, so let's nerf the loyalist statline and make up for it by giving them a ton of special rules and reducing their price".

It's just as unfluffy and silly as your suggestion. Turning Sisters in to "Guard Plus" is no better than your claim of people wanting to turn Sisters in to "Marine Lite".

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, yes they do.

These days, Sisters defeat Space Marines far, far more often than the reverse. So... that actually goes against your argument.

I have not seen anything that supports this claim.

 Melissia wrote:
No it's not. It's extremely consistent that when a non-Marine protagonist fights a marine they do so on even grounds and usually win.

Outside of plot armour like Cain, Gaunt and their friends, I can't think of many examples at all. In fact, even if we do count them, they are still outnumbered by things like this.



Note how the Astartes are not even protagonists in this. In fact, they are not even allies. They are antagonists.

I have, of course, taken plot armour into account for SM too. Hence why I ignore Brothers of the Snake, Talos' supersonic running, The First Heretic's FTL Marines, etc etc.

 Melissia wrote:
Marines being "inhumanly fast" is "probably just propaganda".

Admittedly possible, but highly unlikely. Mentions of such inhuman speed are very common and widespread. If we assume that the likelihood of any given fluff passage is equally likely to be propaganda to any other passage, then the more commonly mentioned something is, the more likely it is to be true. For example, that the Emperor sits on the Golden Throne is a very common statement and therefore probably true. If one book said that someone else did, without the book portraying it as a plot twist and instead just contradicting the other statements, then it is not only in itself far less likely to be true, it also necessitates all the Emperor-on-Throne mentions being false. Therefore it is exponentially less likely to be true.

 Melissia wrote:
Their sword has a flamer attached, and you call it "magical"?

Are you 100% sure? I could not spot any flamer on the sword.

 Melissia wrote:
And I objected to them because they were nonsense, turning a faction of the most elite soldiers of humanity... in to cheap cannon fodder to be spammed, attempting to make up for the nerf by adding slapping on a random assortment of special rules and hoping for the best.

Giving them strong and specifically chosen special rules like Hatred, PE or FnP to help them with their job and suitable weapons to enhance their melee ability does not seem traits typical of cannon fodder. A points cost reduction is just a helper so that you can fit in more other things in the force. Possessed could use a points drop, for instance, but that would not make them less than they are in any way.

 Melissia wrote:
By complaining that Space Marines don't have high enough stats for you. Stop doing that.

The SOB Initiative thing is a symptom of a larger problem, which I mentioned and talked about. It should not be considered my main point - see above suggestions for that.

 Melissia wrote:
Then stop doing it.

I reserve the right to defend my opinions when they are being criticised. Comparisons is the most relevant way to do so.


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 Melissia wrote:

Basically, the equivalent to your suggestion is a chaos marine player saying "I'm tired of loyalists being equal to chaos marines, since legionnaires should be better from their ten thousand years of fighting, so let's nerf the loyalist statline and make up for it by giving them a ton of special rules and reducing their price".

It's just as unfluffy and silly as your suggestion. Turning Sisters in to "Guard Plus" is no better than your claim of people wanting to turn Sisters in to "Marine Lite".

I have not suggested any nerfs whatsoever.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have not seen anything that supports this claim.

For example, when San Leor was attacked by chaos marines, it was repelled quite easily.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Admittedly possible, but highly unlikely.

Extremely likely, actually. Space Marines have a ton of propaganda spread about them, by GW's own admission.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Mentions of such inhuman speed are very common and widespread.

So? Just means the propaganda is widespread. Doesn't mean there's any truth to it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Are you 100% sure? I could not spot any flamer on the sword.

The profile of the sword in tabletop lists that it can be used as a flamer.

 Ashiraya wrote:
A points cost reduction is just a helper so that you can fit in more other things in the force.

When accompanied by a nerf to their statline, it says they're not really elite, they're supposed to be spammed instead.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I reserve the right to defend my opinions when they are being criticised. Comparisons is one way to do that.

And I reserve the right to criticize your focus on Marines in a thread that has nothing to do with marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have not suggested any nerfs whatsoever.

Advocating for a nerf to stay in place is the same thing as advocating for the nerf in the first place. I recognize no functional difference.

 Melissia wrote:
For example, when San Leor was attacked by chaos marines, it was repelled quite easily.

Oh yes, that is one example. I mean more like empirical evidence. There's scattered, lone claims here and there, but they do not really prove much anything at all on their own.

 Melissia wrote:
Extremely likely, actually. Space Marines have a ton of propaganda spread about them, by GW's own admission.

SM have lots of propaganda, for sure. I found that too. However, I did not find anything saying their propaganda is greater in number and/or proportion compared to, say, IG.

 Melissia wrote:
Just means the propaganda is widespread. Doesn't mean there's any truth to it.

I mean, the entire SoB 3rd ed Codex could have been propaganda.

In the absence of other statements, I assume that any given piece of fluff is in a vacuum equally likely to be propaganda to any other.

 Melissia wrote:
The profile of the sword in tabletop lists that it can be used as a flamer.

But where does the flames come from? There's no flamer on it. There's no fuel, nor any firing mechanism, or even a barrel. Do the flames just magically come out of nowhere?

 Melissia wrote:
When accompanied by a nerf to their statline, it says they're not really elite, they're supposed to be spammed instead.

I dunno. Sanguinary Guard got a price drop and they feel just as elite before. I mean, it's not exactly accompanied the I drop, right? The I drop has been there for a time.

 Melissia wrote:
And I reserve the right to criticize your focus on Marines in a thread that has nothing to do with marines.

The reason I mentioned them to begin with was as suitable comparisons and justification for why I4 might not actually be ideal from a fluff standpoint. After that, it was all in response to responses to said justification.

A justification I still insist is fair.

 Melissia wrote:
Advocating for a nerf to stay in place is the same thing as advocating for the nerf in the first place.

I consider reverting the nerf unnecessary.

I consider the nerf to MoK unnecessary too, just like reverting it would be. It's a minor concern that does not really need to be adressed; other problems and possibilities are entirely sufficient.

If it bothers you to have them cheaper, think of it like this:

Celestians now cost 1 ppm less and get access to special weapons.

Celestians now can access special weapons, the first of which costs less points.

These are functionally identical if you actually intend to use them for melee and upgrade them accordingly.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Oh yes, that is one example. I mean more like empirical evidence.

Define "empirical evidence". Because you may be looking for something that is literally impossible to provide.

 Ashiraya wrote:
SM have lots of propaganda, for sure. I found that too. However, I did not find anything saying their propaganda is greater in number and/or proportion compared to, say, IG.

The fact that there's more material written for Space Marines means there's more propaganda for Space Marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:
But where does the flames come from?

My proposed theory is that it's an advanced power field that is capable of producing the effect of a flamer. Regardless, it's quite clear that it's the sword that does it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I dunno. Sanguinary Guard got a price drop and they feel just as elite before.

They didn't get a nerf to their statline.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The reason I mentioned them to begin with was as suitable comparisons and justification for why I4 might not actually be ideal from a fluff standpoint.

Come up with a better example then. Marines are irrelevant as far as this thread is concerned. It's not about them . Screw them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I consider reverting the nerf unnecessary.

Which is the same as advocating for the nerf in the first place. I recognize no distinction between advocating for a nerf and advocating for a nerf.


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 Ashiraya wrote:
If it bothers you to have them cheaper, think of it like this:

Celestians now cost 1 ppm less and get access to special weapons.

Celestians now can access special weapons, the first of which costs less points.

These are functionally identical if you actually intend to use them for melee and upgrade them accordingly.

Or we could do something that makes sense instead, and remove the nerf, restoring them to I4 and WS4, and give them access to melee-focused upgrades, which is something I have advocated for years now.

Slapping a few power swords on them while insisting they remain WS3/I3 isn't going to make them much more useful.

I'm interested in the thread title and posts related to it. Anyone else have more ideas?

How about relic hunters or some kind of flyer idea?

Eadartri wrote:
I'm interested in the thread title and posts related to it. Anyone else have more ideas?

How about relic hunters or some kind of flyer idea?

The main fliers that have been proposed have been transports. A Sororitas Valkyrie was mentioned and linked to earlier in the thread.

Eadartri wrote:
I'm interested in the thread title and posts related to it. Anyone else have more ideas?

How about relic hunters or some kind of flyer idea?

A few pages back there are some player made codex drafts as well.

I have my own fandex that was made for fifth edition, as well, but back then fliers weren't really a thing that was common, and it's a few editions out of date (i'm way too busy to update it). Still, it did have a flier/transport idea.

What about a sort of Sisters equivalent of a Lone Wolf - a very durable warrior who acts as a melee whirlwind. She would probably be a high risk but high reward model. Make her quite customisable with the usual gamut of Imperial weaponry such as power weapons, hammers, storm shields etc.

What would make her different would be her ability to accumulate tokens for each wound she inflicts in battle. These could then be exchanged for buffs. GW now would probably have you roll for these rewards on a table but ideally she'd be able to choose, much like Tau do with Markerlight tokens.

Every token spent could increase a combat stat like Attacks, Initiative or WS by 1, or in exchange for more tokens you could gain less obvious powers such as a morale bubble, an extra Wound or a special rule - better special rules would cost more tokens.

 Melissia wrote:
Define "empirical evidence". Because you may be looking for something that is literally impossible to provide.

Numerous and consistent examples, more numerous than examples contradicting it even after accounting for amount of fluff overall. Currently, that is a contest that superspeed etc. Marines come out ahead in.

 Melissia wrote:
The fact that there's more material written for Space Marines means there's more propaganda for Space Marines.

Taken into account. There's a LOT of propaganda like supersonic marines. As already said, I have dismissed those, leaving the far more numerous sensible passages.

 Melissia wrote:
My proposed theory is that it's an advanced power field that is capable of producing the effect of a flamer. Regardless, it's quite clear that it's the sword that does it.

Ultimately, if a sword with roses is firing gouts of flame without the mention or display of any technology beyond the sword, occam's razor suggests its magic, sorcery, psychic powers, 'faith' powers or similarly esoteric things. Otherwise, why would no one have taken notice of this amazing technology? Why has no one else such a sword? How on earth does a power field become a gout of flame?

 Melissia wrote:
They didn't get a nerf to their statline.

Neither have I suggested one. WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A2 would be my suggestion, which is certainly not a nerf from status quo.

 Melissia wrote:
Come up with a better example then. Marines are irrelevant as far as this thread is concerned. It's not about them . Screw them.

They're perfectly good comparison points. I am not going to exclude comparisons because the faction in question is not to your taste.

 Melissia wrote:
Which is the same as advocating for the nerf in the first place. I recognize no distinction between advocating for a nerf and advocating for a nerf.

I am not advocating a nerf. The status quo is quite fine. I3 is entirely human and elite humans like Militarum Tempestus Tempestors have it. It is hardly a big deal.

 Melissia wrote:

Or we could do something that makes sense instead, and remove the nerf, restoring them to I4 and WS4, and give them access to melee-focused upgrades, which is something I have advocated for years now.

Slapping a few power swords on them while insisting they remain WS3/I3 isn't going to make them much more useful.

WS4, sure!

Melee upgrades, sure!

I4, as said, not really.

Hell, even with all the above they still won't be good. They're going to suffer from the same problem as Chosen - expensive low T sv3+ infantry who will never reach melee.

Hence why I advocated a price drop.

Snipping away at a few irrelevant conversation points because we're getting in to quote spam territory. Let's stick on topic, if you want my responses to the rest send me a PM.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not advocating a nerf.

Either you're not advocating for the nerf, and you're okay with it being reversed... or you are advocating for the nerf, and you're not okay with it being reversed.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways. These are mutually exclusive options, and there is no third option here. Advocating for the status quo is the same thing as advocating for the nerf because the nerf IS status quo. It really isn't that hard to understand.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Hell, even with all the above they still won't be good.

There's better ways to solve this than just saying "screw it just spam them".

 Melissia wrote:
Either you're not advocating for the nerf, and you're okay with it being reversed... or you are advocating for the nerf, and you're not okay with it being reversed.

See it like this: I'd want I4 exchanged for WS4.

That seems better, no? Can't call that a nerf. WS4 is very helpful - against many foes it's a 25% increase in melee survivability, and against many other foes it is a 33% increase in melee damage output. At absolutely worst, you could call that an even exhange, but it really isn't.

 Melissia wrote:
There's better ways to solve this than just saying "screw it just spam them".

Agree. That is why I said to lower points cost. It'll let you buy more support for them to help them get into melee (such as Rhinos, or just more firepower to kill what would threaten them, or characters to help them) and would also reduce the impact if worst comes to worst and they do die.

I can't see why you would not want that. A lower points cost is solely advantageous.

 Ashiraya wrote:
See it like this: I'd want I4 exchanged for WS4.

They were already WS4 before the nerf. So no. Nerfing I4 and saying don't nerf WS4 is still, on the whole, a nerf.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There's better ways to solve this than just saying "screw it just spam them".

Agree. That is why I said to lower points cost.

So nerf them and lower points cost, that'll totally not make them a unit you have to spam!

I don't think they are going to be spammable. They need too much support to help them get into melee.

As far as I know, WS3 I3 is what they are. I am not concerned with previous editions. Giving Marines T3, for example, would still be a nerf even though they used to have it.

I insist that WS4, special weapons, some fancy special rules to make them stand out from the soldiery, and round it off with a price drop if applicable (that is, if the special rules are not strong enough to justify skipping that part) would be entirely adequate and put them up to par with equivalent units like Chosen for their price (in the same way that SoB should be equivalent to standard CSM)

 Ashiraya wrote:
As far as I know, WS3 I3 is what they are. I am not concerned with previous editions.

I am because those previous editions were better for Sisters, with more variety and more tactical options. Advocating for the nerf to stay in place is still advocating for the nerf, and I will never shut up about that so just admit it and move on.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I insist that WS4, special weapons, some fancy special rules to make them stand out from the soldiery, and round it off with a price drop if applicable (that is, if the special rules are not strong enough to justify skipping that part) would be entirely adequate and put them up to par with equivalent units like Chosen for their price (in the same way that SoB should be equivalent to standard CSM)

With WS4, I4, melee special weapons, and acts of faith that aren't stupid, you wouldn't need to nerf them to I3 and slap on a bunch of haphazard special rules.

Ashiraya, Melissia, I think you may have reached the "agree to disagree" stage. The argument has rather derailed this thread and I don't think either of you will ever persuade the other, so perhaps it's time to take it to personal messages or just call it quits?

As for the thread topic, I'm intrigued by the Sororitas Lone Wolf idea -- presumably something close to the original Repentia concept? I have a Repentia Champion (independent character) and Repentia Veteran (squad leader) in my fandex, but I didn't use the tokens idea because it never occurred to me -- probably because I've never read a Space Puppies codex. How would it work?

And what would a "relic hunter" unit be? I'm picturing Lara Croft with fleur-de-lis on her breasts, which is probably wrong on many levels....


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Just to make clear: I've got great respect for Melissia and Ashiraya, who've both certainly helped me with my fandex and offered plenty of great comments on many topics. Melissia's fandex actually inspired mine, though they ended up very different. So I would hate for anyone to think I'm issuing a general denunciation of other person.

Fair enough.

This is the idea I had for a sort of "assault armor" unit of Sisters, with heavier armor (either 2+ or 3+ and FnP, but not slow and relentless-- it's not terminator armor, but rather just heavier armor with a little bit more strength-enhancing tech so it doesn't move any slower) and crusader weapons (shield and power weapon combo, various upgrades).


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 SisterSydney wrote:
Just to make clear: I've got great respect for Melissia and Ashiraya, who've both certainly helped me with my fandex and offered plenty of great comments on many topics. Melissia's fandex actually inspired mine, though they ended up very different.

The Sisters army as it is is so undeveloped that there's a billion ways to take it. Both of our ideas are valid ways to take the army, I prefer mine obviously but yours would still be leagues better than what we currently have.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Ashiraya, Melissia, I think you may have reached the "agree to disagree" stage.

Fair enough. I still stand by my points, but they are made and can stand on their own for now.

 Melissia wrote:
Fair enough.

This is the idea I had for a sort of "assault armor" unit of Sisters, with heavier armor (either 2+ or 3+ and FnP, but not slow and relentless-- it's not terminator armor, but rather just heavier armor with a little bit more strength-enhancing tech so it doesn't move any slower) and crusader weapons (shield and power weapon combo, various upgrades).

FNP? You mean like, with combat drug injectors? Medic? Or some internal damage-control system in the armour?

I mean, a heavy armour SoB unit with sword and board would be awesome, I have always preferred heavier armour for SoB (can't say I am a fan of the boobplate direction...). They would still need some kind of option to get into melee. Assault transport? Something to play on the angelic theme, maybe. That turf does not belong to SM only, SoB have it too with saints, seraphim etc. So maybe some, like, assault flyer? Limited transport capacity and weaponry, but can thrust the SoB right into battle from on high. I like the imagery of that.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Or some internal damage-control system in the armour?

If I don't 'go for a flat out 2+, that's what I would use to justify the FnP-- multiple redundant injury avoidance systems within the armor.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Assault transport? Something to play on the angelic theme, maybe. That turf does not belong to SM only, SoB have it too with saints, seraphim etc. So maybe some, like, assault flyer? Limited transport capacity and weaponry, but can thrust the SoB right into battle from on high. I like the imagery of that.

How about they get the option of deploying from a Sororitas Valkyrie, and can assault from it with a purchased upgrade (something like a one-use jump pack, call it "Angelic Descent Jump Packs" or something)?

The three options are a power spear that gives them charge bonuses or bonuses when being charged, a power sword that gives them flat out strength bonuses, and a power axe that has armorbane. All three options have a shield. Not sure if I'd have them start with crusader shield and then maybe upgrade to storm shields, or what... it's still very theoretical.

I am not sure about the axes. Does not fit SoB's style all that well IMO.

The swords and spears, though, for sure. Maybe a halberd?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not sure about the axes. Does not fit SoB's style all that well IMO.

The swords and spears, though, for sure. Maybe a halberd?

The axe is based off of an actual Blessed Weapon from C:WH, the Axe of Retribution, which was a power-great-axe capable of cleaving tanks in two. It's definitely fitting the Sororitas style.

Perhaps you can envision the Axe of Retribution as a pole weapon similar to a halberd if it helps? It was a two-handed weapon so it's definitely possible.

The other blessed weapons were the Blade of Admonition (which reflected the soul of anyone who looked on it) and the Flail of Chastisement, a power flail tipped with vicious hooks like a flail version of a cat-o-nine-tails.

Greataxes are more Khorne or Ork territory, but that is just what I feel. A stylised halberd would certainly be better in my opinion.

In terms of "heavier armour" I always thought it'd be cool if it got ceramite plating making the wearer re-roll fail armour saves against melta and flame based weapons.

One idea I had was a upgrade easy bake oven squad. A retriubutor style squad that carried large torrent flame weapons with ceramite armour. Make them relentless or just make the guns assault so they can walk towards the enemy while "purifying their sins"

Err, standard power armor is ceramite. Including Sororitas power armor.

So, question here: setting aside fluff for a moment what exactly is the intended gameplay role for "fixed" SoB? How are they supposed to be different from all of the other MEQ armies? IMO that's their biggest weakness, they're too much like any other MEQ army with melta guns everywhere. Sure, they have their differences, but is (for example) an act of faith really a significant gameplay difference compared to psykers/chapter tactics/etc? Is a heavy melee sword + shield unit really different from TH/SS terminators or that inquisitorial power armor + sword/shield unit?

 Melissia wrote:
How about they get the option of deploying from a Sororitas Valkyrie, and can assault from it with a purchased upgrade (something like a one-use jump pack, call it "Angelic Descent Jump Packs" or something)?

A new flyer would be much better IMO. The Valkyrie is a terrible assault vehicle fluff-wise, there's just no effective way to disembark from it and charge straight into combat without having to regroup and get around the giant hovering obstacle in your path. And special jump packs raise the question of why you can't assault when deep striking with them, even though fluff-wise it's the same as dropping out the back of a flying Valkyrie (potentially exactly the same, if you assume that deep striking jump infantry are deploying from off-table Valkyries).

 Peregrine wrote:
So, question here: setting aside fluff for a moment what exactly is the intended gameplay role for "fixed" SoB?

They are an infantry-focused short-ranged army of humans (S3/T3 is universally accepted as the human standard, the other ones are debatable, as shown in this thread) in power armor, who have a focus on getting up close and personal to deliver a very high amount of firepower. Less durable than Space Marines, but once they get their short-ranged weapons to bear, they can use their powerful weapons and acts of faith to deliver devastating barrages to clear enemy units off of objectives or potentially wipe them out entirely.

Relic Hunters idea: A group of sisters who normally search out and retrieve relics from heavily enemy controlled or remote regions of space who are recalled during major mobilizations. They could have a Navigator with them and other special types of characters.

I see sisters as a short range shooting army. I'd like to see them get more ways to get close to enemies quickly so they can kill them. I see them getting stuff like infiltrate, scout, outflank, deep strike as means of quickly getting close and shooting the enemy off the map.

My bad on the ceramite armour. I thought marines used to plaster that stuff over their land raiders to protect them from melta. However, a simple solution would to be to just re-name the extra flame proof plating to something else

@Peregrine

Personnaly, in my fandex (you can find the link in the first page or second one of the proposed rule section or in a link earlier), I would have redefined the Sisters has a close combat elite/medium number armies. With the arrival of the Scions and Skitarii has average model count armies (those with troops between 9 and 12 points) the previous niche of the Sisters close range hight power attack was a bit stolen from them.

Thus, while still keeping it true to pre-existing fluff (rather easy since it's the army with the least amount of it), I redesigned them to be capable of putting decent numbers on the table, well equipped for close combat and short range firefights while keeping their elite human style.

This way they set themselves appart by being more speciliasied than Space Marines (the Jack of All Trades and Masters of None army), the Imperial Guard (the gunline Horde, with heavy armor army), The Scions (the Glass Hammer elite/medium number army), The Skitarii (The balanced medium/elite number army with funky weapons).

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
I see sisters as a short range shooting army. I'd like to see them get more ways to get close to enemies quickly so they can kill them. I see them getting stuff like infiltrate, scout, outflank, deep strike as means of quickly getting close and shooting the enemy off the map.

My bad on the ceramite armour. I thought marines used to plaster that stuff over their land raiders to protect them from melta. However, a simple solution would to be to just re-name the extra flame proof plating to something else

There is a "ceramite armour" vehicle upgrade that has that effect; GW may be using the same name for two different things, or the same thing in different thicknesses may have different effects.

I agree the Sisters need more infiltrate, scout, outflank, and deep strike, and (here I go again) in my fandex, I give them infiltrating elite Dominions (Vigils), a Scouting/Outflanking version of the Hellhound (Lucifer Scout Tank), Scout/Outflanking bikers (Thrones), and, um, a Knight-Titan with angel wings that can Deep Strike, um, and stomps things it lands on instead of mishapping (Knight Angelus).

As for roles:

Sisters have better morale than Scions/Stormtroopers (8 vs 7) and have better armor than either Scions or Skitarii (3+ vs. 4+). They also do miracles and aren't heavily cyborged. All this fits with them being the best unaugmented humanity has to offer. But without S:4, T:4, I:4, they're much more fragile than Marines, especially in close combat.

Tactically, their short-ranged infantry/mech infantry shtick makes me think they're specialized for urban warfare, which would make sense since both the religious sites they protect and the nests of heresy they root out both tend to be in urban areas. (You don't build cathedrals where nobody can get to them, after all; that collection plate ain't gonna fill itself). If you're fighting house to house, street to street, then you want lots of flamethrowers and short-range armor-piercing/concrete-penetrating weapons, while long range is something you won't miss much.

Agreed, Sisters are definitely suited for urban warfare.

Adepta Sororitas: We do house calls.
-- painted on the side of an Immolator during the Thraxal Hive Urban Purification Campaign

I would love to see a special ability for repentia where when they charge they get an initiative bonus.
Sorry to say but I2 6+ save sisters with ap 2 IIRC without fleet or any sort of charge bonuses is a pretty big middle finger from GW

 Melissia wrote:
They are an infantry-focused short-ranged army of humans (S3/T3 is universally accepted as the human standard, the other ones are debatable, as shown in this thread) in power armor, who have a focus on getting up close and personal to deliver a very high amount of firepower. Less durable than Space Marines, but once they get their short-ranged weapons to bear, they can use their powerful weapons and acts of faith to deliver devastating barrages to clear enemy units off of objectives or potentially wipe them out entirely.

But this sounds like you're describing a typical marine army. T3/3+ vs. T4/3+ isn't a huge gameplay difference, especially if the cheaper cost offsets the lower durability. So how does the SoB concept translate into differences on the table? For example, what significant strategy/tactics differences are there between a SW squad with two meltas in a Rhino and a SoB squad with two meltas in a Rhino? There doesn't seem to be any major difference worth getting excited about and saying "I really want to play SoB" (and if you like the fluff you can always just proxy some SoB models as marines). And if there isn't really any major difference that I'm missing then the necessary first step, before inventing new units, is to establish an army concept for SoB that is more than the standard "meltas in transports" marine army with a slight difference in point costs.

(And yes, this is a problem that other MEQ armies suffer from. GW has way more marine armies than interesting game roles for them to fill, and all of them need to be consolidated into C:SM where they belong.)

 Peregrine wrote:
But this sounds like you're describing a typical marine army.

No it doesn't.

Marines are a more balanced army, more generally capable in close combat, with a wide variety of vehicles in support, and more long-ranged capability. Sisters instead tend to deal their damage in short, intense bursts at short range rather than be jack-of-all-trades.

Even if Sisters don't have a unique rules niche, it's not entirely necessary. They are unique in their fluff and aesthetics. That's fine.

That said, they are easily the most intensely close ranged army there is. With any luck, they'll stay that way.

I am not sure if Eldar are starting to contest that position. SoB short range fire is mostly rapid firing bolters, meltas, and flamers. Nobody does melta better than the new Fire Dragons, not even Dominions. And the amount of short range D that Wraithguard can dish out, either single target or via templates, also contests it. Shuriken weapons are also quite short ranged for their respective weapon classes but are very dangerous.

Without T:4 and ATSKNF, Sisters are also far more fragile than Marines. (Though the 6++ helps). That is a game-mechanical representation of their being vulnerable humans underneath their power armour.

The 6++ annoys me, feels like a pathetic, obnoxious attempt to make up for the fact that they know they goofed on making the acts of faith way too inconsistent.

I think if they updated the basic infantry models to look less like space marines with female heads on them, the interest in playing sisters would skyrocket. And that's without regarding any actual rules changes. Removing the crazy ass shoulder pads would be a start.

As far as units...I'd just like the SoB infantry to have a really different flavor to them. Guardsmen in power armor seems a little meh when compared to the flavor of other basic infantry units. Maybe give them a special rule where they're more effective if near other SoB units? I remember something about a faith system, but it seemed horribly inconsistent and not all that great when it did go off.

In essence, they just need something that really differentiates them from other armies. It needs to be battle focus levels of game changing.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So in the current state of the game, I do not think I4 for Celestians is the answer. (Cheaper?) special melee weapons + price drop + special acts of faith for more attacks/FNP/hatred? That sounds better.

Same price, same rules, wargear becomes artificer armor, master-crafted power sword and master-crafted bolt pistol. Fixed .
That makes them much better in close combat than most marines, imho. The only hard part is to wound, but 3 attacks per model, 4 on the charge AP3, reroll one to hit (potentially all to hit if boosted by a priest, which we should all do even if it is just to avoid the logistical nightmare)…

 Ashiraya wrote:
As far as I know, WS3 I3 is what they are.

They are not, never were, never will be.

 Peregrine wrote:
But this sounds like you're describing a typical marine army. T3/3+ vs. T4/3+ isn't a huge gameplay difference, especially if the cheaper cost offsets the lower durability.

I would like an example of huge gameplay difference. What are the huge gameplay differences between dark angels, space marines and space wolves ? Or what is the huge gamemplay difference between eldars and dark eldars ?
I will base myself on that to explain the huge gameplay difference for sisters.


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 gpfunk wrote:
I think if they updated the basic infantry models to look less like space marines with female heads on them, the interest in playing sisters would skyrocket.

Sisters look nothing like space marines. Take a newcomer to the hobby and show her/him some Sisters models, she/he will ask you if they have a 3+ or a 4+ save. I know, that happened to me.

 gpfunk wrote:
Removing the crazy ass shoulder pads would be a start.

The shoulderpad are nothing like the marine shoulderpad. And they look very nice.

 gpfunk wrote:
Guardsmen in power armor seems a little meh when compared to the flavor of other basic infantry units.[…]
In essence, they just need something that really differentiates them from other armies. It needs to be battle focus levels of game changing.

“Space marine with a different paintjob” seems very, very meh to me. But it was good enough for Dark Angels tactical squad, Blood Angel tactical squad and whatever grey claw wolf hunter something the space wolf equivalent is called. They are differentiated by the color. It is apparently a big deal. A completely different armor, a completely different fluff, a completely different statline, and completely different rules… yeah, what more to do you want?

You know something that would be cool is to have a special rule for inquisitors in an SoB army where you can choose between a Radical Inquisistor and a puritan Inquisitor.

Maybe have it where a radical inquisitor can bring a retinue of psykers and get special psychic powers.

And maybe a Puritan Inquisitor gives PE (everything) to units within 24 inches.

Mind you they're Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors to match the fluff.

Radical Inquisitor very rarely works with Sisters, for obvious reasons. And when they do, they do not bring along squads of psykers if they can avoid it.

Yeah, radical inquisitors should be a "come the apocalypse" thing only.

Are you certain? The Inquisition can boss around pretty much anyone, and if a Radical says X, SoB are not really in a position to do Y, though they may not like it.

But Sisters are in a position -- namely, walking six feet behind the radical Inquisitor -- to have a "tragic accidental weapons discharge" right into the back of his head.

Radicals are usually slightly more subtle about being Radical than actual crazy Chaos folks with sigils carved into their chests.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Inquisition can boss around pretty much anyone, and if a Radical says X, SoB are not really in a position to do Y, though they may not like it.

Yeah. But would a Radical Inquisitor want to work with people that have much close ties with Puritan Inquisitors, and share much of the Puritan point of view? Certainly if they needed to do it, they would. But they would avoid it if possible, and they would refrain from showing their radical means as much as possible.

I'd like to see sisters get a big mech.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
The Inquisition can boss around pretty much anyone, and if a Radical says X, SoB are not really in a position to do Y, though they may not like it.

Yeah. But would a Radical Inquisitor want to work with people that have much close ties with Puritan Inquisitors, and share much of the Puritan point of view? Certainly if they needed to do it, they would. But they would avoid it if possible, and they would refrain from showing their radical means as much as possible.

It's still not really CTA. It's more like DA or AoC. Not BB either though.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Are you certain? The Inquisition can boss around pretty much anyone, and if a Radical says X, SoB are not really in a position to do Y, though they may not like it.

Sisters don't actually have to obey the Inquisition if the Inquisition demands they do heretical things. They are partners to the Ordo Hereticus, but not servants. Their primary duty is to protect the Ecclesiarchy's interests... and also to police the Ecclesiarchy to prevent heresy and chaos from taking hold.

Sisters are in an odd place in the Imperial hierarchy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I'd like to see sisters get a big mech.

Of what sort?

A Dread? Something like a Knight? Or more like a penitent engine freakshow thing?

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Are you certain? The Inquisition can boss around pretty much anyone, and if a Radical says X, SoB are not really in a position to do Y, though they may not like it.

Sisters don't actually have to obey the Inquisition if the Inquisition demands they do heretical things. They are partners to the Ordo Hereticus, but not servants. Their primary duty is to protect the Ecclesiarchy's interests... and also to police the Ecclesiarchy to prevent heresy and chaos from taking hold.

Sisters are in an odd place in the Imperial hierarchy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I'd like to see sisters get a big mech.

Of what sort?

A Dread? Something like a Knight? Or more like a penitent engine freakshow thing?

Basically like a giant sister of battle. I know thats quite eldarish to have walkers with humanoid like proportions but it'd be cool to have something that doesn't look super clanky turtleback robot. Give it some sort of wrist or palm mounted flamer/melta weapons and it would be pretty cool. Think like those giant statues of imperial saints coming to life and brutally killing everything.

Probably won't happen as even Contemptor dreads still have that clunky robotic look and GW seems really taken with the whole pentitent engine concept. :(


But yeah, pretty much every codex now should have access to a Lord of War or big walker of some kind. Yes, I know that SoB can just take Knights as allies but I don't like the idea of diluting the army with allies. Plus theres nothing in the Knight codex about knightly houses forming associations with SoB convents like you get with marine chapters or the mechanicum. So they're not a fluffy choice IMO.

Neither do I. I don't'teven like the idea of including Ecclesiarchal units in my army-- no priests, no death cult, etc.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's still not really CTA. It's more like DA or AoC. Not BB either though.

Agreed.

For our LOW we should get the Church Tank!

Want to increase your church attendance? Bring the church right to the mother effing door and burn their house down so they now have no where else to go

The Church Tank: accept no substitute!

3,000-point Churchtank. Actually a small example compared to those in fluff.

 SisterSydney wrote:
3,000-point Churchtank. Actually a small example compared to those in fluff.

Someday I'm going to convert and use that on the table

I just need a bunch of baneblade hulls and a 28mm scale NOT ruined church.

A chariot character mount, if only because I want an excuse to convert something out of https://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Servath+Reznik,+Wrath+of+Ages

(Probably Fast, low AV, some kind of defense to make sure it doesn't get stomped quickly, better Impact Attacks from getting stepped on by mechanical horses...)

If ye gonna use some Warmachine, I'd rather use this :
https://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Vessel+Of+Judgement
Maybe with the horse from the other model, though, because this guy would never be able make that big structure move. But well, Warmachine is pretty cartoony. They even took the “cold is turning you into a glass statue” thing from cartoon and made it a game mechanic (though Diablo and its clone did it before).

Ecclesiarchal Chariot of Fire. 65 points to make your Confessor or Missionary cosplay as Lord Humungus.

More AV than a rhino for a 3-wheeled bike? Is that not a bit much?

Heh. I hadn't made that comparison. Its stats are straight from the Khorne daemon chariot of murderkillingblood or whatever it's called.

Retroactively, I can justify it as a matter of "volume under armor." Rhino is a big empty box, so armoring it to any given thickness takes a lot of metal -- material required equals area times thickness. (This is one of the issues that killed the Ground Combat Vehicle program in real life: the Army wanted a well-armored vehicle with enough internal volume for a nine-man squad in back -- see http://breakingdefense.com/tag/gcv/). By contrast, a chariot is a relatively slender thing , so it doesn't take a lot of metal to armor those narrow facings fairly thickly.

Also, "a bit much" is the design aesthetic of all my Ecclesiarchy units.

I think an issue here, possibly, is that a lot of the "new Units" come from background fluff for the army. That explains, for example, why driving Church-Tanks would be a way to go: They're in the fluff already.

As such, because there is quite little Sisters of Battle fluff that expands on Units, etc, it is quite hard to go into the "completely new" section of thought.

Doing so requires a return to the drawing board, and how they came up with the idea in the first place, and the entire background to 40K, with Spees Mahrines being Roman legions, etc.

Sisters (and Inquisition) inspiration, from wikipedia:

The Sisters bear a resemblance to several knightly orders from Medieval Europe, such as the Templers and have a strong Gothic feel. Many of their heroines have the personae and attitude of Joan of Arc (especially in Martyrdom and Sainthood). Being an elite army of female zealots, they also bear some resemblance to the Fish Speakers from Frank Herbert's Dune universe[Citation Needed]

(And the Inquisition) The medieval version of it.

In order to "invent" brand-new THEMED units, one would have to pour over those sources and see if there is anything that can be conceived from them.

Anyone read Dune and could relate? (I have not...)

I fall firmly in the "no new units that are really just SM's packaged with bewbs to make them SoB" camp.

That being said, I'd rather we fix the few unusable units we currently have.

Celestians: Make them 20 pts each, same stats, give them a power weapon along with their bolter, allow the same special/heavy weapons they currently have, and give them all a rosarius. 3+/4++ is a nice unit that can make you think a bit.

Repentia: Make the Eviscerator a chain sword that grants a HoW attack on the charge, change the units act of faith to give them Smash attacks. FnP should be standard so long as the Mistress is alive. They need a points reduction to be realistically included.

PenEngines: FnP replaced with IWND.

Give the Hvy Flamer Immolaor Torrent. It's silly as it is now.

I have been playing my PenEngines and Repentia along with a Flesh Tearers strike force detachment that allows them drop pods. Give me a Sanguinary Priest HQ with a Jump Pack, a squad of Sister scouts, five drop pods to carry 3 PenEngines in on turn 1, They become a lot more fun to play, and a very tempting distraction that just might keep folks from shooting my scouting Dominions. The Repentia work as great area denial units in the second wave, or if things in the drop zone are going well, I drop them in along with everyone else just to get a hopeful turn 3 charge off. Drop pods may not be your thing, but I have tons of them and they go a long ways towards fixing two of the three bad units in our dex, so I am okay with them.

As far as new units go, I'm not really a fan of Sisters scouts (though my Flesh Tearers "counts as" scouts are made from WMH Sisters of the Flame models) at least in the sense that they are stealthy and sniper like. Doesn't seem like Sisters at all to me. Someone mentioned Sisters with Storm Shields and Power Mauls earlier in the thread. Would be nice to have a shrine defense Troop choice equipped like that, allow them to infiltrate on objectives to represent them being regularly sent to defend holy sites.

I actually had a squad of converted Seraphim on bikes back in 3ed, but I think they are way to SM'ish now.

Would be nice to have automated gun platforms with twin linked hvy bolter/hvy flamer/multi-melta as a non Heavy Support choice. Sister novels are chocked full of the things being set up to defend shrines and what not.

Sister super heavy Tank/Church with laud hailers and a huge apoc size torrent flamer template is on my list of things to build. Make it a LoW choice for the army and call it good.

Don't see a need for any termie sisters or centurion sisters. A ranged form of PenEngine, with a controlled SoB (not a heretic or penitent) pilot might do if you don't like the automated weapons platform idea. Kind of too much like a SM unit, so I would probably lean away from it.

A SoB transport flyer?

Earlier in the thread there was an idea for a flyer transport that could carry an immolator or an exorcist. that still sounds pretty awesome.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Would be nice to have automated gun platforms with twin linked hvy bolter/hvy flamer/multi-melta as a non Heavy Support choice. Sister novels are chocked full of the things being set up to defend shrines and what not.

Servitors would be an easy choice there, considering there's stats and models for them already in the game. Maybe up their point cost a bit to change their Mind Lock rule to work off any friendly Sororitas unit within 12", rather than needing an Enginseer/Tech Marine/Inquisitor in their unit.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Would be nice to have automated gun platforms with twin linked hvy bolter/hvy flamer/multi-melta as a non Heavy Support choice. Sister novels are chocked full of the things being set up to defend shrines and what not.

Servitors would be an easy choice there, considering there's stats and models for them already in the game. Maybe up their point cost a bit to change their Mind Lock rule to work off any friendly Sororitas unit within 12", rather than needing an Enginseer/Tech Marine/Inquisitor in their unit.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space-Marine-Support/SPACE_MARINE_TARANTULA_HEAVY_BOLTERS.html

I think that they are still Marine-Specific, but anytime soon these might be "Armies of the Imperium" Options

Imperial Armour Volume 2 2nd Ed for current rules

 BlackTalos wrote:
As such, because there is quite little Sisters of Battle fluff that expands on Units, etc, it is quite hard to go into the "completely new" section of thought.

It's really not hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dracpanzer wrote:
Celestians: Make them 20 pts each, same stats, give them a power weapon along with their bolter, allow the same special/heavy weapons they currently have, and give them all a rosarius. 3+/4++ is a nice unit that can make you think a bit.

And yet they still strike at S3 I3 WS3 and are T3, making them very weak as a close combat unit, ESPECIALLY for twenty points per model.

Peoples' obsession with "don't make sisters too much like marines" is being taken to way too much of an extreme, especially since Marines stole a ton of ideas from Sisters to begin with. Relic Blades, for example, originated with Sisters of Battle as Blessed Weapons. It was stolen pretty much directly from C:WH.

 Melissia wrote:
And yet they still strike at S3 I3 WS3 and are T3, making them very weak as a close combat unit, ESPECIALLY for twenty points per model.

What about my suggestion? Surely at 14 points with 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, and a 2+, at S4 when the act of faith is on them, rerolling to hit AND to wound with a priest, AP3, then they are not that weak, are they? Not broken good, but still able to put a lot of pain on anything with a 3+ or less.

Hmmm.

How about 16ppm, WS/BS/I 4, A2/ LD9/ S/T 3.
Ditch the bolter, instead give them 'Blessed Blades' (AP3, S+1), keep their AoF as Furious Charge, or make it hatred. Give them Artificer Armor.
Actually, probably closer to 20ppm. Makes sense fluff wise. Ecchlesiarchy is the richest branch of them Imperium, and has less soldiers then there are space marines. When you think of it like that, that should be the statline of every Sister.

Maybe make it you need a Cannoness to take more then 1 squad.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And yet they still strike at S3 I3 WS3 and are T3, making them very weak as a close combat unit, ESPECIALLY for twenty points per model.

What about my suggestion? Surely at 14 points with 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, and a 2+, at S4 when the act of faith is on them, rerolling to hit AND to wound with a priest, AP3, then they are not that weak, are they? Not broken good, but still able to put a lot of pain on anything with a 3+ or less.

Ooooooor you'll just be cut down by I4+ assault troops before you can attack... Which is most of them.

The ones that aren't I4+ are far more durable or rarely taken.

 Melissia wrote:
Ooooooor you'll just be cut down by I4+ assault troops before you can attack...

Even with a 2+ save? Beside monstruous creatures, who has AP2 and strike before I3?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Ooooooor you'll just be cut down by I4+ assault troops before you can attack...

Even with a 2+ save? Beside monstruous creatures, who has AP2 and strike before I3?

Off the top of my head (on my phone right now)? Anything with rending, spears on the charge, and anything that can land a lot of attacks. The fact that they're not I4 will mean they'll do less damage even against enemies that don't have ap2, as well as take more.

 Melissia wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Ooooooor you'll just be cut down by I4+ assault troops before you can attack...

Even with a 2+ save? Beside monstruous creatures, who has AP2 and strike before I3?

Off the top of my head (on my phone right now)? Anything with rending, spears on the charge, and anything that can land a lot of attacks. The fact that they're not I4 will mean they'll do less damage even against enemies that don't have ap2, as well as take more.

Aren't spears S +1 AP3 on the charge? And S user AP4 usually.

 Melissia wrote:
Off the top of my head (on my phone right now)? Anything with rending, spears on the charge, and anything that can land a lot of attacks. The fact that they're not I4 will mean they'll do less damage even against enemies that don't have ap2, as well as take more.

Maybe also add a Rosarius? Then they would be approximately as though as terminators. One less point in thoughness, but a better invulnerable. Which seems a fine place to me given how the terminator armor is supposed to be the best armor ever and all that…

Or we could just give them WS4/I4 back, power weapon upgrades for the squaddies, and better acts of faith, without trying to slap on a bunch of other things and turn them in to pseudo-terminators.

Artificer armour and Rosarius is too similar to Marines, but WS4 and I4 is not?

 Melissia wrote:
Or we could just give them WS4/I4 back

They still have the WS4, no? Even Seraphim have WS4.

 Melissia wrote:
without trying to slap on a bunch of other things and turn them in to pseudo-terminators.

I think mastercrafted stuff and artificier armor are totally fitting fluffwise, though.

I took my own shot at 30 ppm storm shield & power lance super-Seraphim. I don't think I've overcome the glass hammer problem inherent in piling melee upgrades on a T:3 moel, though.

ANGRY SISTERS wielding Power Axes and Thunder Hammers.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
ANGRY SISTERS wielding Power Axes and Thunder Hammers.

Sigmarite Sisters?

Hammers are such a crude and ugly tool. We Sisters prefer our two-handed weapons to be more ladylike and graceful, like the Eviscerator.

 Melissia wrote:
Or we could just give them WS4/I4 back, power weapon upgrades for the squaddies, and better acts of faith, without trying to slap on a bunch of other things and turn them in to pseudo-terminators.

Celestians (and Seraphim) are already WS4.

When you add a Priest to let them re-roll Saves they become reasonably resilient, especially if you have a Canoness with the Mantle and Rosarius to tank AP2/3 stuff on her Invuln save. A re-rollable 3+ Armour Save makes up for only being I3 if you're fighting something without AP3. Furious Charge letting them be S4 on the charge and another Priest to let them re-roll those To Wounds also makes them reasonable at putting Wounds on a Target too.

Celestians aren't flashy, and their utility is dependent on having some Priests and a Canoness with them. But they do OK then. The biggest problem by far is their lack of an effective means of getting into Assault, but that's a problem alot of armies have not just Sisters.

I don't 'think they should need to have a pair of priests as a crutch just to be "okay".

No I don't either, but if you do run them that way then they are OK. Certainly the best way to run a Sisters Melee unit imo, without using a Battle Conclave (which if you want to run take one from Codex Inquisition imo).

Then again Priests are an excellent model and you should be using them wherever possible. Almost to the point where if you make Celestians good without them, and then add the current version of Priests to them they will become really really good.

 GoonBandito wrote:
No I don't either, but if you do run them that way then they are OK. Certainly the best way to run a Sisters Melee unit imo, without using a Battle Conclave (which if you want to run take one from Codex Inquisition imo).

Then again Priests are an excellent model and you should be using them wherever possible. Almost to the point where if you make Celestians good without them, and then add the current version of Priests to them they will become really really good.

Then get rid of the idiotic priest abilities. They're nothing but a lame crutch anyway that basically means you have to buy a priest for every single squad.

Why are they are a crutch? That's like saying Commissars are a crutch for an Imperial Guard blob, because without them you'll be failing morale left right and centre and seeing a 50man blob get Swept because you lost 5 guys in an Assault Phase. Or saying Nobs are a crutch for an Ork Boy squad because without that Power Klaw you can tie up huge mobs with a Dreadnought.

You don't take a Priest for every single squad, you take them for the squads you are intending for use in close combat (imo). LD9 from your Veteran Superior is good enough for Battle Sister Squads that are going to be driving around in Rhinos or holding rear guard.

Elysians D99 have I4/WS4/BS4

Solomon Lock is I5, he's an Inquisitor.

It should also be noted that some tau can go up to WS4 I4. WS5 I5(?) in the case of farsight (see maybe tau might not be so gak at CC if they actualy trained for it).

Yeah, but Indepenedent Characters, especially Special Characters, are a tricky point to start extrapolating from for normal soldiers. (Extrapolating what the ICs should be for any given infantry model, by contrast, is a simple matter of improving stats). Most obviously, HQ characters tend to have two or three Wounds, grunts almost never do.

Tau also have the aid of Battlesuit systems. It's entirely possible that certain Battlesuits are so advanced so they can swing and dodge faster than their pilot.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Why are they are a crutch? That's like saying Commissars are a crutch for an Imperial Guard blob

A better comparison is if you had to have a techpriest for every single tactical marine squad to allow them to use their heavy weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, but Indepenedent Characters, especially Special Characters, are a tricky point to start extrapolating from for normal soldiers. (Extrapolating what the ICs should be for any given infantry model, by contrast, is a simple matter of improving stats). Most obviously, HQ characters tend to have two or three Wounds, grunts almost never do.

Celestians aren't grunt or "normal soldiers". They are, quite literally, the best that unaugmented humanity can offer.

 Melissia wrote:
I'd prefer to see actual Sisters stuff rather than regurgitated Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy crap. I was never interested in freakshow armies.

Feel the same way. Was angry when they lumped the Inquisiton in with the Grey Knights. I hope they don't lump the sisters in with anything and they they update them!! They are like the 40k equivalent of the Bretonians.

Well, the Sisters were part of the Inquisition for, like, 4 Editions, so... it's kind of odd to see them lose that aspect, really.

The GK have pretty much always been part of the Inquisition, as well, being the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus and all.

I also don't mind Sisters having Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition ties either - after all that's exactly what their fluff is. The 'standing army' of the Church, who also have close ties to the Ordo Hereticus. I would be annoyed if they took those aspects away from the Sisters...

I've always liked the Sisters tie to both the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition.

I've made several new units for my own Fandex: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148

My newest units are the Shrine Maiden and Shield Maiden battle Suits.

The Shrine Maiden is based off the Dreadnaught, but with weaker weapons and 1 less side armour. It's also 30 points cheaper and comes with Shield of Faith.

The Shield Maiden replaces 1 of it's weapons with an Eviscerator (same as a Chain Fist) with the option to purchase a second Eviscerator. What makes the Shield Maiden special is that it gets a 4++ save and can extend out a 5++ to friendly units once per game.

 J3f wrote:
I've always liked the Sisters tie to both the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition.

I've made several new units for my own Fandex: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148

My newest units are the Shrine Maiden and Shield Maiden battle Suits.

The Shrine Maiden is based off the Dreadnaught, but with weaker weapons and 1 less side armour. It's also 30 points cheaper and comes with Shield of Faith.

The Shield Maiden replaces 1 of it's weapons with an Eviscerator (same as a Chain Fist) with the option to purchase a second Eviscerator. What makes the Shield Maiden special is that it gets a 4++ save and can extend out a 5++ to friendly units once per game.

I read your fandex. the sisters Technologous sound pretty cool

It's one thing to tie armies together, it's another thing to make it dependent on each other. What I mean by that is the GK codex is Grey Knights where you can have some Inquisitional and Witch Hunter bits in the army if you want. It's much much harder to make a unique and fun Inquisitional army without having the GK in it. Where, before they mixed them and the Inquisition and Witch Hunters had their own codex, I had a fun and effective and unique Inquisition army.

tilarium wrote:
It's one thing to tie armies together, it's another thing to make it dependent on each other. What I mean by that is the GK codex is Grey Knights where you can have some Inquisitional and Witch Hunter bits in the army if you want. It's much much harder to make a unique and fun Inquisitional army without having the GK in it. Where, before they mixed them and the Inquisition and Witch Hunters had their own codex, I had a fun and effective and unique Inquisition army.

Err, not anymore. Inquisition and Grey Knights are completely separate codex again.

Thematic dependence isn't as much of a problem as playability dependence. SoB dependence is due to a lack updating not due to any thematic choice. If the Exorcist were given an AA option and SoN given a flyer and a tailored transport option that would solve the great majority of their short comings.

What kind of "tailored transport option" are you thinking of? Something to fill the lack of an assault vehicle or...?

 SisterSydney wrote:
What kind of "tailored transport option" are you thinking of? Something to fill the lack of an assault vehicle or...?

There are different direction they could take SoB... SoB need some sort of improved mobility whether it's a flying transport, drop pod, or a land raider sized church tank thing. I just meant it doesn't matter what they get but as long as they get one of those sorts of things and that it's made to fit thematically and an AA option the great majority of the SoB's dependency are eliminated.

Homebrew Sororitas Valkyrie, Dominica-pattern drop pod, alternative Skyfire ammo for the Exorcist, Land Raider-sized assault vehicle, and 3,000-point superheavy Churchtank: click here!