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 Melissia wrote:
Either you're not advocating for the nerf, and you're okay with it being reversed... or you are advocating for the nerf, and you're not okay with it being reversed.

See it like this: I'd want I4 exchanged for WS4.

That seems better, no? Can't call that a nerf. WS4 is very helpful - against many foes it's a 25% increase in melee survivability, and against many other foes it is a 33% increase in melee damage output. At absolutely worst, you could call that an even exhange, but it really isn't.

 Melissia wrote:
There's better ways to solve this than just saying "screw it just spam them".

Agree. That is why I said to lower points cost. It'll let you buy more support for them to help them get into melee (such as Rhinos, or just more firepower to kill what would threaten them, or characters to help them) and would also reduce the impact if worst comes to worst and they do die.

I can't see why you would not want that. A lower points cost is solely advantageous.

 Ashiraya wrote:
See it like this: I'd want I4 exchanged for WS4.

They were already WS4 before the nerf. So no. Nerfing I4 and saying don't nerf WS4 is still, on the whole, a nerf.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There's better ways to solve this than just saying "screw it just spam them".

Agree. That is why I said to lower points cost.

So nerf them and lower points cost, that'll totally not make them a unit you have to spam!

I don't think they are going to be spammable. They need too much support to help them get into melee.

As far as I know, WS3 I3 is what they are. I am not concerned with previous editions. Giving Marines T3, for example, would still be a nerf even though they used to have it.

I insist that WS4, special weapons, some fancy special rules to make them stand out from the soldiery, and round it off with a price drop if applicable (that is, if the special rules are not strong enough to justify skipping that part) would be entirely adequate and put them up to par with equivalent units like Chosen for their price (in the same way that SoB should be equivalent to standard CSM)

 Ashiraya wrote:
As far as I know, WS3 I3 is what they are. I am not concerned with previous editions.

I am because those previous editions were better for Sisters, with more variety and more tactical options. Advocating for the nerf to stay in place is still advocating for the nerf, and I will never shut up about that so just admit it and move on.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I insist that WS4, special weapons, some fancy special rules to make them stand out from the soldiery, and round it off with a price drop if applicable (that is, if the special rules are not strong enough to justify skipping that part) would be entirely adequate and put them up to par with equivalent units like Chosen for their price (in the same way that SoB should be equivalent to standard CSM)

With WS4, I4, melee special weapons, and acts of faith that aren't stupid, you wouldn't need to nerf them to I3 and slap on a bunch of haphazard special rules.

Ashiraya, Melissia, I think you may have reached the "agree to disagree" stage. The argument has rather derailed this thread and I don't think either of you will ever persuade the other, so perhaps it's time to take it to personal messages or just call it quits?

As for the thread topic, I'm intrigued by the Sororitas Lone Wolf idea -- presumably something close to the original Repentia concept? I have a Repentia Champion (independent character) and Repentia Veteran (squad leader) in my fandex, but I didn't use the tokens idea because it never occurred to me -- probably because I've never read a Space Puppies codex. How would it work?

And what would a "relic hunter" unit be? I'm picturing Lara Croft with fleur-de-lis on her breasts, which is probably wrong on many levels....


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Just to make clear: I've got great respect for Melissia and Ashiraya, who've both certainly helped me with my fandex and offered plenty of great comments on many topics. Melissia's fandex actually inspired mine, though they ended up very different. So I would hate for anyone to think I'm issuing a general denunciation of other person.

Fair enough.

This is the idea I had for a sort of "assault armor" unit of Sisters, with heavier armor (either 2+ or 3+ and FnP, but not slow and relentless-- it's not terminator armor, but rather just heavier armor with a little bit more strength-enhancing tech so it doesn't move any slower) and crusader weapons (shield and power weapon combo, various upgrades).


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 SisterSydney wrote:
Just to make clear: I've got great respect for Melissia and Ashiraya, who've both certainly helped me with my fandex and offered plenty of great comments on many topics. Melissia's fandex actually inspired mine, though they ended up very different.

The Sisters army as it is is so undeveloped that there's a billion ways to take it. Both of our ideas are valid ways to take the army, I prefer mine obviously but yours would still be leagues better than what we currently have.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Ashiraya, Melissia, I think you may have reached the "agree to disagree" stage.

Fair enough. I still stand by my points, but they are made and can stand on their own for now.

 Melissia wrote:
Fair enough.

This is the idea I had for a sort of "assault armor" unit of Sisters, with heavier armor (either 2+ or 3+ and FnP, but not slow and relentless-- it's not terminator armor, but rather just heavier armor with a little bit more strength-enhancing tech so it doesn't move any slower) and crusader weapons (shield and power weapon combo, various upgrades).

FNP? You mean like, with combat drug injectors? Medic? Or some internal damage-control system in the armour?

I mean, a heavy armour SoB unit with sword and board would be awesome, I have always preferred heavier armour for SoB (can't say I am a fan of the boobplate direction...). They would still need some kind of option to get into melee. Assault transport? Something to play on the angelic theme, maybe. That turf does not belong to SM only, SoB have it too with saints, seraphim etc. So maybe some, like, assault flyer? Limited transport capacity and weaponry, but can thrust the SoB right into battle from on high. I like the imagery of that.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Or some internal damage-control system in the armour?

If I don't 'go for a flat out 2+, that's what I would use to justify the FnP-- multiple redundant injury avoidance systems within the armor.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Assault transport? Something to play on the angelic theme, maybe. That turf does not belong to SM only, SoB have it too with saints, seraphim etc. So maybe some, like, assault flyer? Limited transport capacity and weaponry, but can thrust the SoB right into battle from on high. I like the imagery of that.

How about they get the option of deploying from a Sororitas Valkyrie, and can assault from it with a purchased upgrade (something like a one-use jump pack, call it "Angelic Descent Jump Packs" or something)?

The three options are a power spear that gives them charge bonuses or bonuses when being charged, a power sword that gives them flat out strength bonuses, and a power axe that has armorbane. All three options have a shield. Not sure if I'd have them start with crusader shield and then maybe upgrade to storm shields, or what... it's still very theoretical.

I am not sure about the axes. Does not fit SoB's style all that well IMO.

The swords and spears, though, for sure. Maybe a halberd?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not sure about the axes. Does not fit SoB's style all that well IMO.

The swords and spears, though, for sure. Maybe a halberd?

The axe is based off of an actual Blessed Weapon from C:WH, the Axe of Retribution, which was a power-great-axe capable of cleaving tanks in two. It's definitely fitting the Sororitas style.

Perhaps you can envision the Axe of Retribution as a pole weapon similar to a halberd if it helps? It was a two-handed weapon so it's definitely possible.

The other blessed weapons were the Blade of Admonition (which reflected the soul of anyone who looked on it) and the Flail of Chastisement, a power flail tipped with vicious hooks like a flail version of a cat-o-nine-tails.

Greataxes are more Khorne or Ork territory, but that is just what I feel. A stylised halberd would certainly be better in my opinion.

In terms of "heavier armour" I always thought it'd be cool if it got ceramite plating making the wearer re-roll fail armour saves against melta and flame based weapons.

One idea I had was a upgrade easy bake oven squad. A retriubutor style squad that carried large torrent flame weapons with ceramite armour. Make them relentless or just make the guns assault so they can walk towards the enemy while "purifying their sins"

Err, standard power armor is ceramite. Including Sororitas power armor.

So, question here: setting aside fluff for a moment what exactly is the intended gameplay role for "fixed" SoB? How are they supposed to be different from all of the other MEQ armies? IMO that's their biggest weakness, they're too much like any other MEQ army with melta guns everywhere. Sure, they have their differences, but is (for example) an act of faith really a significant gameplay difference compared to psykers/chapter tactics/etc? Is a heavy melee sword + shield unit really different from TH/SS terminators or that inquisitorial power armor + sword/shield unit?

 Melissia wrote:
How about they get the option of deploying from a Sororitas Valkyrie, and can assault from it with a purchased upgrade (something like a one-use jump pack, call it "Angelic Descent Jump Packs" or something)?

A new flyer would be much better IMO. The Valkyrie is a terrible assault vehicle fluff-wise, there's just no effective way to disembark from it and charge straight into combat without having to regroup and get around the giant hovering obstacle in your path. And special jump packs raise the question of why you can't assault when deep striking with them, even though fluff-wise it's the same as dropping out the back of a flying Valkyrie (potentially exactly the same, if you assume that deep striking jump infantry are deploying from off-table Valkyries).

 Peregrine wrote:
So, question here: setting aside fluff for a moment what exactly is the intended gameplay role for "fixed" SoB?

They are an infantry-focused short-ranged army of humans (S3/T3 is universally accepted as the human standard, the other ones are debatable, as shown in this thread) in power armor, who have a focus on getting up close and personal to deliver a very high amount of firepower. Less durable than Space Marines, but once they get their short-ranged weapons to bear, they can use their powerful weapons and acts of faith to deliver devastating barrages to clear enemy units off of objectives or potentially wipe them out entirely.

Relic Hunters idea: A group of sisters who normally search out and retrieve relics from heavily enemy controlled or remote regions of space who are recalled during major mobilizations. They could have a Navigator with them and other special types of characters.

I see sisters as a short range shooting army. I'd like to see them get more ways to get close to enemies quickly so they can kill them. I see them getting stuff like infiltrate, scout, outflank, deep strike as means of quickly getting close and shooting the enemy off the map.

My bad on the ceramite armour. I thought marines used to plaster that stuff over their land raiders to protect them from melta. However, a simple solution would to be to just re-name the extra flame proof plating to something else

@Peregrine

Personnaly, in my fandex (you can find the link in the first page or second one of the proposed rule section or in a link earlier), I would have redefined the Sisters has a close combat elite/medium number armies. With the arrival of the Scions and Skitarii has average model count armies (those with troops between 9 and 12 points) the previous niche of the Sisters close range hight power attack was a bit stolen from them.

Thus, while still keeping it true to pre-existing fluff (rather easy since it's the army with the least amount of it), I redesigned them to be capable of putting decent numbers on the table, well equipped for close combat and short range firefights while keeping their elite human style.

This way they set themselves appart by being more speciliasied than Space Marines (the Jack of All Trades and Masters of None army), the Imperial Guard (the gunline Horde, with heavy armor army), The Scions (the Glass Hammer elite/medium number army), The Skitarii (The balanced medium/elite number army with funky weapons).

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
I see sisters as a short range shooting army. I'd like to see them get more ways to get close to enemies quickly so they can kill them. I see them getting stuff like infiltrate, scout, outflank, deep strike as means of quickly getting close and shooting the enemy off the map.

My bad on the ceramite armour. I thought marines used to plaster that stuff over their land raiders to protect them from melta. However, a simple solution would to be to just re-name the extra flame proof plating to something else

There is a "ceramite armour" vehicle upgrade that has that effect; GW may be using the same name for two different things, or the same thing in different thicknesses may have different effects.

I agree the Sisters need more infiltrate, scout, outflank, and deep strike, and (here I go again) in my fandex, I give them infiltrating elite Dominions (Vigils), a Scouting/Outflanking version of the Hellhound (Lucifer Scout Tank), Scout/Outflanking bikers (Thrones), and, um, a Knight-Titan with angel wings that can Deep Strike, um, and stomps things it lands on instead of mishapping (Knight Angelus).

As for roles:

Sisters have better morale than Scions/Stormtroopers (8 vs 7) and have better armor than either Scions or Skitarii (3+ vs. 4+). They also do miracles and aren't heavily cyborged. All this fits with them being the best unaugmented humanity has to offer. But without S:4, T:4, I:4, they're much more fragile than Marines, especially in close combat.

Tactically, their short-ranged infantry/mech infantry shtick makes me think they're specialized for urban warfare, which would make sense since both the religious sites they protect and the nests of heresy they root out both tend to be in urban areas. (You don't build cathedrals where nobody can get to them, after all; that collection plate ain't gonna fill itself). If you're fighting house to house, street to street, then you want lots of flamethrowers and short-range armor-piercing/concrete-penetrating weapons, while long range is something you won't miss much.

Agreed, Sisters are definitely suited for urban warfare.

Adepta Sororitas: We do house calls.
-- painted on the side of an Immolator during the Thraxal Hive Urban Purification Campaign

I would love to see a special ability for repentia where when they charge they get an initiative bonus.
Sorry to say but I2 6+ save sisters with ap 2 IIRC without fleet or any sort of charge bonuses is a pretty big middle finger from GW

 Melissia wrote:
They are an infantry-focused short-ranged army of humans (S3/T3 is universally accepted as the human standard, the other ones are debatable, as shown in this thread) in power armor, who have a focus on getting up close and personal to deliver a very high amount of firepower. Less durable than Space Marines, but once they get their short-ranged weapons to bear, they can use their powerful weapons and acts of faith to deliver devastating barrages to clear enemy units off of objectives or potentially wipe them out entirely.

But this sounds like you're describing a typical marine army. T3/3+ vs. T4/3+ isn't a huge gameplay difference, especially if the cheaper cost offsets the lower durability. So how does the SoB concept translate into differences on the table? For example, what significant strategy/tactics differences are there between a SW squad with two meltas in a Rhino and a SoB squad with two meltas in a Rhino? There doesn't seem to be any major difference worth getting excited about and saying "I really want to play SoB" (and if you like the fluff you can always just proxy some SoB models as marines). And if there isn't really any major difference that I'm missing then the necessary first step, before inventing new units, is to establish an army concept for SoB that is more than the standard "meltas in transports" marine army with a slight difference in point costs.

(And yes, this is a problem that other MEQ armies suffer from. GW has way more marine armies than interesting game roles for them to fill, and all of them need to be consolidated into C:SM where they belong.)

 Peregrine wrote:
But this sounds like you're describing a typical marine army.

No it doesn't.

Marines are a more balanced army, more generally capable in close combat, with a wide variety of vehicles in support, and more long-ranged capability. Sisters instead tend to deal their damage in short, intense bursts at short range rather than be jack-of-all-trades.

Even if Sisters don't have a unique rules niche, it's not entirely necessary. They are unique in their fluff and aesthetics. That's fine.

That said, they are easily the most intensely close ranged army there is. With any luck, they'll stay that way.

I am not sure if Eldar are starting to contest that position. SoB short range fire is mostly rapid firing bolters, meltas, and flamers. Nobody does melta better than the new Fire Dragons, not even Dominions. And the amount of short range D that Wraithguard can dish out, either single target or via templates, also contests it. Shuriken weapons are also quite short ranged for their respective weapon classes but are very dangerous.

Without T:4 and ATSKNF, Sisters are also far more fragile than Marines. (Though the 6++ helps). That is a game-mechanical representation of their being vulnerable humans underneath their power armour.

The 6++ annoys me, feels like a pathetic, obnoxious attempt to make up for the fact that they know they goofed on making the acts of faith way too inconsistent.

I think if they updated the basic infantry models to look less like space marines with female heads on them, the interest in playing sisters would skyrocket. And that's without regarding any actual rules changes. Removing the crazy ass shoulder pads would be a start.

As far as units...I'd just like the SoB infantry to have a really different flavor to them. Guardsmen in power armor seems a little meh when compared to the flavor of other basic infantry units. Maybe give them a special rule where they're more effective if near other SoB units? I remember something about a faith system, but it seemed horribly inconsistent and not all that great when it did go off.

In essence, they just need something that really differentiates them from other armies. It needs to be battle focus levels of game changing.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So in the current state of the game, I do not think I4 for Celestians is the answer. (Cheaper?) special melee weapons + price drop + special acts of faith for more attacks/FNP/hatred? That sounds better.

Same price, same rules, wargear becomes artificer armor, master-crafted power sword and master-crafted bolt pistol. Fixed .
That makes them much better in close combat than most marines, imho. The only hard part is to wound, but 3 attacks per model, 4 on the charge AP3, reroll one to hit (potentially all to hit if boosted by a priest, which we should all do even if it is just to avoid the logistical nightmare)…

 Ashiraya wrote:
As far as I know, WS3 I3 is what they are.

They are not, never were, never will be.

 Peregrine wrote:
But this sounds like you're describing a typical marine army. T3/3+ vs. T4/3+ isn't a huge gameplay difference, especially if the cheaper cost offsets the lower durability.

I would like an example of huge gameplay difference. What are the huge gameplay differences between dark angels, space marines and space wolves ? Or what is the huge gamemplay difference between eldars and dark eldars ?
I will base myself on that to explain the huge gameplay difference for sisters.


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 gpfunk wrote:
I think if they updated the basic infantry models to look less like space marines with female heads on them, the interest in playing sisters would skyrocket.

Sisters look nothing like space marines. Take a newcomer to the hobby and show her/him some Sisters models, she/he will ask you if they have a 3+ or a 4+ save. I know, that happened to me.

 gpfunk wrote:
Removing the crazy ass shoulder pads would be a start.

The shoulderpad are nothing like the marine shoulderpad. And they look very nice.

 gpfunk wrote:
Guardsmen in power armor seems a little meh when compared to the flavor of other basic infantry units.[…]
In essence, they just need something that really differentiates them from other armies. It needs to be battle focus levels of game changing.

“Space marine with a different paintjob” seems very, very meh to me. But it was good enough for Dark Angels tactical squad, Blood Angel tactical squad and whatever grey claw wolf hunter something the space wolf equivalent is called. They are differentiated by the color. It is apparently a big deal. A completely different armor, a completely different fluff, a completely different statline, and completely different rules… yeah, what more to do you want?