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 Ashiraya wrote:
WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT.

No it's not. It's what they were in third edition. They should never have been nerfed in the first place.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT.

No it's not. It's what they were in third edition. They should never have been nerfed in the first place.

Yeah i have to agree that I4 is not that OTT

It's barley above normal human. Heck, tau drones are I4.

I've also been thinking about a supplemental heavy support tank. I would call it the Purgator. It would have a thermal lance like the Imperial Knight along with a heavy flamer, twin linked heavy bolter, or a multimelta. It would also have some decent armor too. Something a little more beefy than a typical Rhino say 13/12/12 while still using the basic chassis. I always hated the idea that tanks must have 10 or 11 rear armor if they belong to the Imperium and are not a Land Raider.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Hey, I have an idea for an SoB superheavy. A baneblade, but the main gun is a giant flamer, and all the HBs can be replaced with heavy flamers and multi-meltas. The SoB with call it the "Holy Burnerator 5000", and heritcs will call it "OH GOD THE FIRE! IT BURNS! HELP ME! AAAAAAAGH!".

On a more serious note, I think an assault unit with duel wielded flamer-pistols would be fun and somewhat hilarious.

hahah In a way this is completely fitting.

We actually just did a show talking all about Adepta Sororitas...

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3642

The army is seriously lacking in units at this time unfortunately. I like the idea you present in regards to flamers and such featured heavily. All joking aside - some type of super heavy baneblade firing flamers everyone is interesting. Probably difficult to get into play unless you armed it with some long range stuff (another massive, missile firing pipe organ?)



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 andrewm9 wrote:
I've also been thinking about a supplemental heavy support tank. I would call it the Purgator. It would have a thermal lance like the Imperial Knight along with a heavy flamer, twin linked heavy bolter, or a multimelta. It would also have some decent armor too. Something a little more beefy than a typical Rhino say 13/12/12 while still using the basic chassis. I always hated the idea that tanks must have 10 or 11 rear armor if they belong to the Imperium and are not a Land Raider.

Yeah I like this.

 cvtuttle wrote:


hahah In a way this is completely fitting.

We actually just did a show talking all about Adepta Sororitas...

http://theindependentcharacters.com/blog/?p=3642

I'm listening as I post!

I've had an idea of a unit of two battle sisters on new Broodlord Oval base carrying a reliquary or relic of some sort. Basically, each Battle Sister squad can be upgraded to have some sort of reliquary bearers that grant them certain upgrades depend on the reliquary. Things like Zealot, or Feel No Pain, etc. Kind of like a banner bearer for a squad, but on a bigger base with two Sisters carrying a relic. Depending on the cost of the reliquary bearers, they would be worth including in sisters squads even though they could be sniped out. Probably a 2 wound model (to represent both bearers) and maybe even Toughness 4, so they don't get wiped from Str 6 to give the reliquary a bit more oomph.

OP


I would like to see more units in the whole female paladin/Knight thing they have going atm. Not a fan of the BDSM repentia and torture engine stuff. Feels like it belongs in a separate army TBH.


To that end I would probably like to see Celestians have extremely ornate armor. More like Custodes and Sisters of Silence in their aesthetic with CC weapons and artificer armor.

Dominions have more of a bulky hazmat type armor. Maybe give them guns similar to what the HH pyroclasts have with the arm weapon mounts.

Make retributors more like relic bearers with crazy melta lances and braziers that shoot torrent flamer. Think censor bearers.

Centurions or Terminators. Because I like new units.

Ideally I would like to see the aesthetic of the repentia and penitent engines heavily changed. ie Repentia still wear their armor and aren't naked. Then make the PE more clearly a SoB unit. You don't have to make it a dreadnought per sae, but at least tone down the steampunk and add smoother armor plates. As it stands an Imperial Knight is closer in aesthetic to basic sisters of battle than a penitent. It canstill be a torture engine, but it shouldn't look like one and the exposed pilot is just plain silly.

I want to see the OTT Living Saint from Soulstorm as a generic unit. Dammit, if the Emperor could change forms I don't see why a girl infused with the GE power wouldn't get taller.


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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'd like to see Celestians restored to I4/WS4 and be given the opportunity to purchase Crusader gear (stormshield+powersword, basically) for the squad. It would add a lot, I feel, to the Sisters list.

WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT. Unless you wanna give Vanguard/Sternguard/Chosen I5. That would be fine with me.

The problem is, if Sisters have a poor statline for their points cost then you'd have to buff them in other ways. Either through Act of Faith, Army wide special rules or by giving them access to better guns and armor. I meani it is a real issue that basic SoB don't have cheap and plentiful access to their special and heavy weapons; nor access to any cool and exotic ones. I mean isn't it like 40pts for a melta pistol on Seraphim or something like that? That's half of one of the new kitted out windrider squads.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
OP


I would like to see more units in the whole female paladin/Knight thing they have going atm. Not a fan of the BDSM repentia and torture engine stuff. Feels like it belongs in a separate army TBH.


To that end I would probably like to see Celestians have extremely ornate armor. More like Custodes and Sisters of Silence in their aesthetic with CC weapons and artificer armor.

Dominions have more of a bulky hazmat type armor. Maybe give them guns similar to what the HH pyroclasts have with the arm weapon mounts.

Make retributors more like relic bearers with crazy melta lances and braziers that shoot torrent flamer. Think censor bearers.

Centurions or Terminators. Because I like new units.

Ideally I would like to see the aesthetic of the repentia and penitent engines heavily changed. ie Repentia still wear their armor and aren't naked. Then make the PE more clearly a SoB unit. You don't have to make it a dreadnought per sae, but at least tone down the steampunk and add smoother armor plates. As it stands an Imperial Knight is closer in aesthetic to basic sisters of battle than a penitent. It canstill be a torture engine, but it shouldn't look like one and the exposed pilot is just plain silly.

I want to see the OTT Living Saint from Soulstorm as a generic unit. Dammit, if the Emperor could change forms I don't see why a girl infused with the GE power wouldn't get taller.

I agree with this completely. i think the repentia corsets should be replaced with hooded robes. Honestly if GW did the things said above………I would blow up the moon (out of happiness of course.

However there is probably a downside to this. In all likeliness boobplate is here to stay. Most likely GW will keep boobplate in order to keep a bigger aesthetic difference between SoB and SM minis. Either that or nobody in the SoB army will get a helmet. Personally i'd love to see an end to boobplate. Maybe they'll get rid of it in a codex update or two….(translation 30 years)

PEngines aren't meant to protect the pilot... it's a tool for absolving the heretic strapped to its front, and only in death can a heretic be absolved of sin. The "pilot" is actually fairly incidental to the whole thing.

Same with Repentia. They're not expecting... or even hoping... to survive contact with the enemy. Again, absolution of sins is earned through death in the Emperor's service.

epronovost wrote:
Personnaly, I wouldn't change the stats of the marines ones because I think the average Sister is I 3, but nearly 4

There is nothing suggesting SoB are superhumanly fast.

In fact, their humanity is supposed to be a big part of what sets them apart from their larger male boltgun-and-PA-using friends, together with larger emphasis on faith, stylised equipment and reduced armour design competence. Buffing them up to superhumanity removes a big part of what makes them unique - that they do their sick BS with flamer and boltgun without going semisuperman in the process.




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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
The problem is, if Sisters have a poor statline for their points cost then you'd have to buff them in other ways. Either through Act of Faith, Army wide special rules or by giving them access to better guns and armor. I meani it is a real issue that basic SoB don't have cheap and plentiful access to their special and heavy weapons; nor access to any cool and exotic ones. I mean isn't it like 40pts for a melta pistol on Seraphim or something like that? That's half of one of the new kitted out windrider squads.

Or change nothing about their stats, and just reduce their points cost.




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 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
WS4, okay. I4 is a bit OTT.

No it's not. It's what they were in third edition. They should never have been nerfed in the first place.

An entirely appropriate nerf.

Or buff SM/CSM to I5. Either works for me. But superhuman speed should be superhuman, not, well, human.

Either way, game and lore has moved on, especially in the space of four editions.

Initiative isn't all speed. It's also reaction time. I4 would be expert unaided human, something that fits for advanced sister's units.

And, keep in mind, rules do not always line up with fluff. You have to look at balance too. I4 on a melee or advanced unit makes sense.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Initiative isn't all speed. It's also reaction time. I4 would be expert unaided human, something that fits for advanced sister's units.

And, keep in mind, rules do not always line up with fluff. You have to look at balance too. I4 on a melee or advanced unit makes sense.

Due to the natural human nerve reaction speed, SoB reactions have a hard cap. It takes 0,5 seconds for the information your eyes register to reach and be processed by the brain into something you see and understand. Once you factor in the decision to make a physical reaction (even if it is just a reflex) and then the information reaching the relevant body parts, you're looking at even more time.

In comparison, SM have repeatedly shown themselves as having millisecond or lower reaction times due to their enhanced bodies. They're not even close to comparable - it's like a Fire Warrior wrestling a Warboss.

I am just arguing from a lore standpoint. I am not convinced that I4 will make a meaningful difference in balance terms. Don't boost I and drop price instead I say.

 Ashiraya wrote:

I am just arguing from a lore standpoint. I am not convinced that I4 will make a meaningful difference in balance terms. Don't boost I and drop price instead I say.

If you drop the price, and don't boost I, they won't be taken. Without I4 a non-tanky melee unit is so at so severe a disadvantage it's pointless.
If you want, we'll add two lines to Celestian fluff. "Exemplar warriors with years of experience and faith beyond reckoning, a Sister inducted to the Celestians undergoes gene therapy, and the Ecchelsiarchy uses it's influence to ensure they transcend those of lesser faith. To this end, all are given over to the care of the Mechanicum, only for long enough to receive enhancement that they may know no equal".

Hey, maybe I'll shorthand that. ATSKNE. +1 to LD, WS, I, A and S.

I like most of these ideas. I'd like a churchy baneblade, something close to the Fortress of Arrogance (with motifs) would look very fitting. I also like the idea of a heavy assault unit.
Not so sold on snipers. Sisters are close ranged, but adding them couldn't possibly be a detriment. I'd just avoid them.
Not sure on bikes either. But, variety is the spice of life, so why not?

I disagree with an INT buff to sisters. There needs to be more lower INT units in the game both for fluff and gameplay purposes. It makes the SM advantage more meaningful. I could get behind a fluffy augmented unit that had higher INT, but any unit like that should be repentia. Otherwise you are creating a why use this unit when the other exists situation. And in that case, you would have to increase the Repentia price.

If they rescaled power weapons to make more sense it would be less of an issue. The axe is easily the best weapon and in most cases it the only choice if you want to spend money on an upgrade. The price basically makes it pointless for IG or Sisters to grab items in most cases. The sword does nothing special and the maul and lance are under powered.

Should be like this:

Maul: S +1 AP 4 Concussive - 5 point upgrade - Light Unit killer
Heavy Maul: S +2 AP 4, Two Handed, Concussive, Unwieldy- 10 upgrade - Light Vehicle Killer
Lance: Charge S +1 Int +1 AP 3, S User, Int User, AP 4 - 5 points - Bargin MEQ killer for models that are destined to die, powerful but WS offset means it is a risky choice.
Sword: S User Int +1 AP 3 - 10 points - MEQ Killer - Makes it easier for lower units to fight MEQ, a Power Sword MEQ has a significant advantage against MEQ opponents and also gives them a better chance against Eldar.
Axe: S +1 AP 2 Unwieldy- 15 points - Bargin TEQ Killer
Power Fist SX2 AP 2 Unwieldy - 25 - Everything Killer

With the system changed, lower int models like Guardsmen or Sisters would not be afraid of taking different weapon types on Sgt because their is a useful increase in power for cost. And higher int units like Space Marines have a reason to take lower tiered weapons because they are cheaper. Special Weapon weapons like Huskblades, Lightning Claws and Eviscerators etc etc would also need a redo as well, but I think it would really improve the system on a whole if it was better thought out maybe not with my choices but something along these lines to make them more balanced.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Initiative isn't all speed. It's also reaction time. I4 would be expert unaided human, something that fits for advanced sister's units.

And, keep in mind, rules do not always line up with fluff. You have to look at balance too. I4 on a melee or advanced unit makes sense.

Due to the natural human nerve reaction speed, SoB reactions have a hard cap. It takes 0,5 seconds for the information your eyes register to reach and be processed by the brain into something you see and understand. Once you factor in the decision to make a physical reaction (even if it is just a reflex) and then the information reaching the relevant body parts, you're looking at even more time.
.

Current humans have a nerve system that in total reaction time including info being sent to the brain (Only taking .20 seconds ) is less than half a second. And given that it is said in the fluff that the SoB are trained to the highest level without (major) biological augmentation it would make sense that they would have have a better than average initiative. and don't go siting sm as a reason not to raise initiative, yes they are supposed to be big and fast, but big stuff takes longer to get moving. it almost seems like sm initiative should be lowered.

Nah, I4 is good for SM. They are better than your average human. And they aren't slow and lumbering, just big.

 Madoch1 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Initiative isn't all speed. It's also reaction time. I4 would be expert unaided human, something that fits for advanced sister's units.

And, keep in mind, rules do not always line up with fluff. You have to look at balance too. I4 on a melee or advanced unit makes sense.

Due to the natural human nerve reaction speed, SoB reactions have a hard cap. It takes 0,5 seconds for the information your eyes register to reach and be processed by the brain into something you see and understand. Once you factor in the decision to make a physical reaction (even if it is just a reflex) and then the information reaching the relevant body parts, you're looking at even more time.
.

Current humans have a nerve system that in total reaction time including info being sent to the brain (Only taking .018 seconds ) is less than half a second. And given that it is said in the fluff that the SoB are trained to the highest level without (major) biological augmentation it would make sense that they would have have a better than average initiative. and don't go siting sm as a reason not to raise initiative, yes they are supposed to be big and fast, but big stuff takes longer to get moving. it almost seems like sm initiative should be lowered.

Bigger things take longer to get moving, yet humans are still faster than snails. Remarkable, isn't it?

Marines are way faster than humans. They are enhanced to the point where they aren't really human anymore. But as said, this is all from a lore viewpoint.


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 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:
If you drop the price, and don't boost I, they won't be taken. Without I4 a non-tanky melee unit is so at so severe a disadvantage it's pointless.

My cultists do just fine. Celestians should be more expensive but they also have PA, WS4, A2...

Lowering their base price and giving them access to special melee weapons seems fair.

@Ashiraya and nedTCM

Initiative 4 isn't superhuman speed it's maximum speed for a human. Tempestor Prime are initiative 4 and they aren't enhanced either. Hell, in fifth eddition and early sixth, Marbo had initiative 5 and he wasn't enhanced either he was just that badass.

Yes, it makes Marines compartively a bit weaker in close combat especially if you raise their WS to 4 like I suggested it both in this thread and in my codex. Normal Space Marines are initiative 4, normal humans are initiative 3, heroic humans are initiative 4 and heroic Space Marines are initiative 5. Thus, Sisters, being all heroic level humans, should all have initiative 4 (or at least Canoness, Palatine, Celestial and Seraphim). After all, Sisters are supposed to be even better than Scions who are themselves amongst the best non Space Marines warriors in the Imperium.

This still represent Space Marines being faster than human being, it just blurr the line a bit when it comes to exceptionnal individuals. It's just like eldar who are faster than humans and Space Marines, yet the best Space Marines can match eldar warrior speed and reflex, but not the very best eldar. Initiative is a bit of a strange stats, it's the only «physical» stats that offer some variability from individual of the same race (and codex) to varie a bit from heroes, elite troopers and regular ones.

Are Sisters supposed to be better than Scions now?

@Ashiraya

While not explicitly stated (like in Sisters are even better than Scions), the Adpetas Sororitas fluff strongly suggest that Sisters Millitant are better trained, better equipped, more motivated and better cared for than Scions.

In the Millitarum Tempestus Codex, the now go to source for fluff about Scions, the Adeptas Sororitas has first pick when it comes to select girls from Schola Progenium, then it's the Officio Prefectus (AKA the Commissariat and all that surround it) than it's the Ordo Tempestus (AKA the Scions academy and all that surround it). This means Scions don't have access to the very best recruits because these become either commissars or Sisters. It also explain why women are a minority in the Commissariat (if you read some Gaunt Ghost, the subject his touched when Gaunt falls under the supervision of a female Commissar Lord which he comment being a rare thing).

Furthermore, when reading Sisters Codex and fluff, the exploits, training and traditions of the Adeptas Sororitas appears much more impressive than those of the Scions (which are still very cool and impressive in my opinion mind you) and they usually operate in even dire situations. In fact, when it comes to the Sisterhood greatest accomplishment and especially their genesis, they can match in term of awesome those of the Space Marines. This leads me to believe that they are indeed superior combattant, yet Scions are tailling them rather closely.

I would say the debate Scions vs Sisters falls in the same categorie than the Cadian vs Armaggedon troopers. In the fluff cadians are insanly well trained guardsmen (they need to, their job is to repel veteran Space Marine assaults). On the other hand, the Steel Legion is mostly made of violent gangsters with relatively little formal milliary training. Thus I would be of the opinion that Cadians are much better guardsmen even if the fluff doesn't clearly mention it.

Of course this is all open for debate. Personnaly, if you want to continue debating with me (which could be intersting) on what stats and abilities Sisters should have compared to others, I would propose you to do it on another thread to prevent it from derailing completly. I would suggest the page I use for my fan made Sister Codex. This way you would have a good idea about what I think about the subject and what I think is reasonable. What do you think about it?

fwiw here's a list of all the Humans (I think) in the game with I4 or better:

Guard - Colour Sergeant Kell (I4), Tempestor Prime (I4)

Sisters - Canoness (I4), Uriah Jacobus (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6), Celestine (I7).

Inquisition - Inquisitors (I4), Coteaz (I4), Karamazov (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6).

Skitarii - Sicarian Infiltrators (I4), Sicarian Ruststalkers (I4).

Officio Assassinorum - Eversor, Callidus, Culexus and Vindicare are all I7.


I think the most meaningful examples are the Tempestor Prime and the Skitarii Elites. If Stormtroopers and the Mechanicus can have I4 Infantry, I fail to see why Sisters of Battle wouldn't either. Celestians seem a likely choice to be I4 to me, considering they are the elite veterans and that would help set them apart from regular Battle Sisters.

 GoonBandito wrote:
fwiw here's a list of all the Humans (I think) in the game with I4 or better:

Guard - Colour Sergeant Kell (I4), Tempestor Prime (I4)

Sisters - Canoness (I4), Uriah Jacobus (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6), Celestine (I7).

Inquisition - Inquisitors (I4), Coteaz (I4), Karamazov (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6).

Skitarii - Sicarian Infiltrators (I4), Sicarian Ruststalkers (I4).

Officio Assassinorum - Eversor, Callidus, Culexus and Vindicare are all I7.


I think the most meaningful examples are the Tempestor Prime and the Skitarii Elites. If Stormtroopers and the Mechanicus can have I4 Infantry, I fail to see why Sisters of Battle wouldn't either. Celestians seem a likely choice to be I4 to me, considering they are the elite veterans and that would help set them apart from regular Battle Sisters.

Ruststalkers and Sicarian infiltrators aren't just humans. They're almost entirely machine by the time they make their way into those ranks.

I don't agree that the Tempestor should have I4 either, but then, he's a high-ranking CO of an already extremely elite unit.

Mechanicus Sicarians are extremely heavily augmented - have you even seen their models?

 Ashiraya wrote:


My cultists do just fine. Celestians should be more expensive but they also have PA, WS4, A2...

Lowering their base price and giving them access to special melee weapons seems fair.

Don't cultists cost 4-5 points? At that point, although not tanks, they have huge numbers. And cultists aren't exactly meant to be killing things.... Once you start paying for something other then a mook, there needs to be a certain baseline for efficiency.

However, a BSS costs 12pts. At 14 points as it stands, a Celestian cost too much. They are inferior to marines, and cost the same. By dropping their points cost, what happens then? BSS would have to go down. An 8pt BSS isn't something I want, particularly. So, to prevent that, the more logical method is to buff Celestians. I4 is hardly immersion or game breaking.

Giving them access to the Melee Weapons list would go a ways as well.

 GoonBandito wrote:
fwiw here's a list of all the Humans (I think) in the game with I4 or better:

Guard - Colour Sergeant Kell (I4), Tempestor Prime (I4)

Sisters - Canoness (I4), Uriah Jacobus (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6), Celestine (I7).

Inquisition - Inquisitors (I4), Coteaz (I4), Karamazov (I4), Death Cult Assassins (I6).

Skitarii - Sicarian Infiltrators (I4), Sicarian Ruststalkers (I4).

Officio Assassinorum - Eversor, Callidus, Culexus and Vindicare are all I7.


I think the most meaningful examples are the Tempestor Prime and the Skitarii Elites. If Stormtroopers and the Mechanicus can have I4 Infantry, I fail to see why Sisters of Battle wouldn't either. Celestians seem a likely choice to be I4 to me, considering they are the elite veterans and that would help set them apart from regular Battle Sisters.

Very helpful. While the Skitarii hardly count as unmodified humans, from everything I've read, the Dealth Cultists are just folks-- yet they have freaking I:6.

I'd been in the "I:4 is OP for humans" camp, but now I've changed my mind.

Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

 SisterSydney wrote:
While the Skitarii are hardly modified humans

You demand a lot from a guy before you will admit he's modified!

You're saying this guy is "hardly modified." (Remember, NORMAL skitarii, like Vanguard and Rangers have I3.)

Whoops, I got lost in my double negative there. I meant to type "hardly unmodified." Edit time!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

Eldar are not augmented but are higher initiative than most other un-augmented races, often being I 6

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

Eldar are not augmented but are higher initiative than most other un-augmented races, often being I 6

Other than the special charters, I thought they mostly topped out at at 5. Been a while since I have had eldar try and assault me, so my memory might be fuzzy.