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Initiative isn't just reaction speed though. It's how fast you fight. A marine doesn't become a child when he picks up a hammer. He's just fighting with an awkward weapon. And chainswords aren't used for surgery either. They're big tearing weapons. A space marine can probably react to a new threat in no-time, but he still fights like a brute. DCA fight with needle point swords that they spend their whole life not just using but mastering completely. The space marine is fast by human standards, but he has no more an assassin's training than a guardsman does. In fact, he probably relies a little too much on his built in strengths. I6 might be a little extreme, but i see no problem with trained humans being faster in combat than a space marine

Well, it's possible the Death Cults also take drugs or activate latent psychic talents, since they're mysterious weirdos.

Deathcults probably have something special there, yes. They've always been very odd.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

Eldar are not augmented but are higher initiative than most other un-augmented races, often being I 6

Other than the special charters, I thought they mostly topped out at at 5. Been a while since I have had eldar try and assault me, so my memory might be fuzzy.

Normal Eldar soldiers have I5. Exarchs and above have I6 as far as I know. Archons have I8. Succubi too (?)

In my knowledge, has a ranking of Initiative we would have the following:

initiative 1: pretty much nothing except non charging carnifex during 5th eddition and nurgle zombies

initiative 2: tau fire warrior, gretchin, ork boys, necron warriors and immortal

initiative 3: guardsmen, Scions, Sisters, elite tau warrior, nobz, Plague Marines, kroot warrior, skitarii

initiative 4: Space Marines (chaos and loyal), Tempestor Prime, Inquisitor, eldar guardien pre-sixth eddition, ork warboss, tau commander, gaunts and tyranid warriors, elite skitarii

Initiative 5: eldar aspect warriors, new guardians, kabalite, Space Marine heroes

Initiative 6: dark eldar witch, deathcult assassin, eldar heroes, exarchs, vespid, Lucius, harlequins

initiative 7: dark eldar archon, phoenix lord, Saint Celestine

initiative 8: succubus

initative 9: Lelith, Daemon Prince

iniative 10: Solitaire, Avatar of Khaine, Keeper of Secrets

With that in mind, I don't think initiative 4 Sisters are far-fetch or broken. It's rather reasonnable especially if you only give it to veterans and heroes.

I think a cool idea would be a take on the ww2 rocket truck but instead of rockets it's a hotshot lasgun battery that can knock planes out of the sky and even if it's shooting at ground targets it's the equivalent of 16 las rifles. I think that would be a cool idea

Another concept I like is a tank with a crew trapped inside. They only are ever let out if they return from the battle victorious, inside all they can hear is recordings of chants and the tanks mechanical parts. The idea being that this is a penitent engine for tank crew members

I think the SoB should have a large Land Raider crusader sized transport in the form of a mobile chapel or shrine. It's not fast but it'll move a good number of people around; it should almost be like a parade float in terms of speed but creating this faith boosting aura around it.

I've always thought that Centurions as these power armored guys inside exoskeletons conceptually worked better for Sisters of battle. I want a similar exoskeletons but I see it as smaller and armed with Storm bolters, meltaguns, and flamers... With the option to upgrade one of the three to the "heavy" version of one of those weapons.

I think SoB should have a new derivation of the Valkyrie.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Deathcults probably have something special there, yes. They've always been very odd.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Yeah I4 is just expert human.

I6 is the highest unaugmented initiative I know of, that being vespids, which is hilarious, although they are flying bug people, so they probably have great spacial awareness.

Eldar are not augmented but are higher initiative than most other un-augmented races, often being I 6

Other than the special charters, I thought they mostly topped out at at 5. Been a while since I have had eldar try and assault me, so my memory might be fuzzy.

Normal Eldar soldiers have I5. Exarchs and above have I6 as far as I know. Archons have I8. Succubi too (?)

Wow, my memory is bad.

Give 'em a modernized version of this as a unique transport:

just use female deoderant.





Edit:I joke, but I could make a pretty cool open-topped transport out of something like that.

ionusx wrote:IAnother concept I like is a tank with a crew trapped inside. They only are ever let out if they return from the battle victorious, inside all they can hear is recordings of chants and the tanks mechanical parts. The idea being that this is a penitent engine for tank crew members

Oh my god someone make this now I want it I want it my precioussssss

I'm trying to think how you'd depict it rules-wise, since tanks are already Fearless and things like Rage or Rampage don't affect them. Maybe It Will Not Die and Fear?

aka_mythos wrote:I think the SoB should have a large Land Raider crusader sized transport in the form of a mobile chapel or shrine. It's not fast but it'll move a good number of people around; it should almost be like a parade float in terms of speed but creating this faith boosting aura around it....

Try the homebrewed Deliverer (open topped) in my fandex.

aka_mythos wrote:I think SoB should have a new derivation of the Valkyrie.

Sororitas Valkyrie, Victoria (Vendetta that switches lascannon for multimeltas), and Virago (replaces transport capacity with Exorcist Fething Missile Launcher).

RaptorusRex wrote:Give 'em a modernized version of this as a unique transport:

Spoiler:

Cool, but it looks like some kind of skimmer, and those are muy rare in the Imperium as currently envisioned. I can't think of any except Land Speeders and that one Marine special character's special bike.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think the SoB should have a large Land Raider crusader sized transport in the form of a mobile chapel or shrine. It's not fast but it'll move a good number of people around; it should almost be like a parade float in terms of speed but creating this faith boosting aura around it.

I've always thought that Centurions as these power armored guys inside exoskeletons conceptually worked better for Sisters of battle. I want a similar exoskeletons but I see it as smaller and armed with Storm bolters, meltaguns, and flamers... With the option to upgrade one of the three to the "heavy" version of one of those weapons.

I think SoB should have a new derivation of the Valkyrie.

Yes absolutely. do all you can to make this happen. Spam call GW. no no even better. Spam call Mr. Kirby

I think the biggest thing that has left SoB behind with the edition changes is the lack of mobility option.

Another idea I had but was something a little more far fetched was a group of SoB that teleport to deepstrike, using only their strength of faith to survive the exposure to the warp. That teleporting is their act of faith and they have to test on the turn the come in, a failure would result in some number of wounds that they could then take a save against.

I think Sister Hospitalars should be one of those 3 for 1 elite choice where each can be assigned to a squad and grant a FNP save.

I also had the idea of those SoB tasked with protecting frontier shrines and chapels... some sort of unit that emphasized defense; I'm picturing slow and purposeful sisters with combat shields and an improved overwatch.

 SisterSydney wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I think SoB should have a new derivation of the Valkyrie.

Sororitas Valkyrie, Victoria (Vendetta that switches lascannon for multimeltas), and Virago (replaces transport capacity with Exorcist Fething Missile Launcher).

I'm also thinking the ability to drop napalm would be appropriate too.


I wonder if we can think of some interesting special character.

I'd like to see us get a chariot. Make it nice and baroque with a pulpit for some crazed confessor/sister to preach from while it is pulled by penitents/heretics medieval style. Make it so that it buffs nearby units while burning nearby enemy units.

I'd also like to see Frateris Militia make a return. It's crazy to think that GW made actual models for them only for them to have legal rules for less then a year.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Cool, but it looks like some kind of skimmer, and those are muy rare in the Imperium as currently envisioned.

If only the Ecclesiarchy was one of the most powerful and richest organization in the full Imperium, they would then be the perfect suspect for claiming one of those very rare designs for their own…

 Ashiraya wrote:

An entirely appropriate nerf.

Or buff SM/CSM to I5. Either works for me. But superhuman speed should be superhuman, not, well, human.

Either way, game and lore has moved on, especially in the space of four editions.

I4 isn't superhuman, stop making things up.

There is also no reason for marines to be I5. That would be rmoronic. Marines aren't Eldar.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

An entirely appropriate nerf.

Or buff SM/CSM to I5. Either works for me. But superhuman speed should be superhuman, not, well, human.

Either way, game and lore has moved on, especially in the space of four editions.

I4 isn't superhuman, stop making things up.

There is also no reason for marines to be I5. That would be rmoronic. Marines aren't Eldar.

Yes it is. Otherwise all IG would have the same stats as Marines. There are only a few normal humans that have I4. Most of the ones that have it are augmented.

Reguardless, not everything is based on fluff. It makes sense on a balance level, and that's enough. Not everything has to be how it would be in the fluff. Else Tau would all be at least BS4, and kroot would be amazing in close combat.

nedTCM wrote:


Yes it is. Otherwise all IG would have the same stats as Marines.

Your premise is nonsense. Just because the average, barely trained guardsman is I3 doesn't mean that ALL humans must be I3, including veterans amongst veterans whom are the best fighters amongst a group of soldiers that are described as equal in capability and skill to marines. There's no logic there.

 Melissia wrote:

nedTCM wrote:


Yes it is. Otherwise all IG would have the same stats as Marines.

Your premise is nonsense. Just because the average, barely trained guardsman is I3 doesn't mean that ALL humans must be I3, including veterans amongst veterans whom are the best fighters amongst a group of soldiers that are described as equal in capability and skill to marines. There's no logic there.

The game is literally designed that way. Catachans train in hand to hand since pretty much birth they are I3 in IG book and their Catachan book. Stormtroopers and Commissars who train from the start as well and everyone except the highest ranking Stormtrooper is I3. Regular Skitarii have heavy augments and then have I3 until they replace most of their body to the point of being beyond human in which they are only granted I4. Nearly every IG human character except for Kell and Marbo has I3. In most cases, experience and training is translated through weapon skill, which is why most characters have that higher score in WS.

The only ones that are routinely I4 are Inquisitors and they have access to things that others do not. Characters like Marbo and Kell are special cases. Turning every rank and file sister into I4 makes no sense. They have no special augments, no black carapace to interface with their armor, and no reason other than you claiming their training is so great it transcends everyone else in the galaxy. Fluff wise I4 makes no sense. It also is a bad decision game play wise as it is another step in making everyone just have Marine stats and trivializing the differences in factions.

@nedTCM

That's why we are proposing for veteran and heroic Sisters to have initiative 4, not all basic Sisters. You are arguing against a strawman which is by definition pointless. All races, including humans, in the game have different initiative stats between grunts, elites and heroes status. If 1 Space Marine out of a 100 his so good and fast that he can receive an extra point here, it would be logical for the 1% of the best trained human to have an extra point too. After all, what counts for Space Marines, eldars, orks and tau should logically count for human too.

In fact, making Sister a little bit better would improve difference in factions. This way, Skitarii, Veteran guardsmen, Scions and Sisters would all have a little difference that's not only covered by the kind of guns and armor they use. Skitarii are relentless and feel no pain to represent their heavy bionics, Scions have deep strike and move through cover to represent their special ops training, veteran guardsmen are the basic build for an elite human soldier, Sisters have a little bit more stats and represent the top of human fighting skills and finally Space Marines top them all with extra know no fear, endurence and strength (and still a bit more speed overall).

Celestians are veterans amongst veterans, not basic grunts.

The game is NOT "designed that way".

You're using arguments with no basis.

epronovost wrote:
@nedTCM

That's why we are proposing for veteran and heroic Sisters to have initiative 4, not all basic Sisters. You are arguing against a strawman which is by definition pointless. All races, including humans, in the game have different initiative stats between grunts, elites and heroes status. If 1 Space Marine out of a 100 his so good and fast that he can receive an extra point here, it would be logical for the 1% of the best trained human to have an extra point too. After all, what counts for Space Marines, eldars, orks and tau should logically count for human too.

In fact, making Sister a little bit better would improve difference in factions. This way, Skitarii, Veteran guardsmen, Scions and Sisters would all have a little difference that's not only covered by the kind of guns and armor they use. Skitarii are relentless and feel no pain to represent their heavy bionics, Scions have deep strike and move through cover to represent their special ops training, veteran guardsmen are the basic build for an elite human soldier, Sisters have a little bit more stats and represent the top of human fighting skills and finally Space Marines top them all with extra know no fear, endurence and strength (and still a bit more speed overall).

You are ignoring the crux of my argument and saying it is strawman so it is pointless. Your own argument provides nothing as all it does is say my argument is pointless and that yours, for which you provide no examples for, is in fact the correct.

Furthermore, I didn't misrepresent the position. The arrangement being made was that I4 doesn't represent super human and that Celstians should be I4 because they are the better trained. I disputed that by saying over several books better training is not represented by an increase in Int. When you say all races have different Int stats between grunts and elites I don't see that so please point it out. That only happens when you compare HQs with with other FOC choices (there may be a few exceptions) or when the unit itself is drastically different (for example a boy vs a nob or a human vs a ratling). What I do see is the more is that WS or BS is the stat changed by moving from basic grunt to more elite units. The examples I provided are above. Celestians may be elite, but they still are the regular sisters with more experience. That is should be a WS or BS change in my opinion not a Int change.

You claiming that it would improve differences in factions is opinion just like me claiming it would make it worse. Sisters has power armor, shield of faith.act of faith, and standard BS4 to represent their training. I don't think they need something like int to better represent their fluff.

Your argument falls flat on its face given that Celestians were I4 from 3rd to the end of 5th. The fact that they were that in the past is evidence enough that your marinewank of an idea is utter nonsense.

 Melissia wrote:
Your argument falls flat on its face given that Celestians were I4 from 3rd to the end of 5th. The fact that they were that in the past is evidence enough that your marinewank of an idea is utter nonsense.

That doesn't prove anything. Stats were different for a lot of models in the past. You could easily make the opposite argument that they were correcting a past mistake or that they wanted to change the fluff.

nedTCM wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Your argument falls flat on its face given that Celestians were I4 from 3rd to the end of 5th. The fact that they were that in the past is evidence enough that your marinewank of an idea is utter nonsense.

That doesn't prove anything.

It proves that your ideas are anything but set in stone, and are really not be at all representative of how the stats should be interpreted.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

An entirely appropriate nerf.

Or buff SM/CSM to I5. Either works for me. But superhuman speed should be superhuman, not, well, human.

Either way, game and lore has moved on, especially in the space of four editions.

I4 isn't superhuman, stop making things up.

I never said I4 was. Do not assign assertions onto me that I have not made.

I said that superhuman speed (which Astartes possess) should be superhuman (beyond human limits). I4 is not. Giving Celestians I4 and SM/CSM I5 seems ideal, although the presence of Death Cult Assassins shows that maybe it should be even higher. If so, Eldar should naturally be adjusted accordingly as well. They are faster than Marines after all.

There is also no reason for marines to be I5. That would be rmoronic. Marines aren't Eldar.

I never said they are. No need for condescension.

It is all limits of the game system, it seems. You have humans, then you have trained soldier humans that are faster, then you have elite humans who are even faster, then you have superhuman Marines who are even faster, then you have Marine elites who are even faster, then you have Eldar who are even faster...

This extreme and often exponential scaling is not limited to speed and is very widespread in the game's lore, although its funny how extremely poorly the game is able to represent it. It's like the game takes this scaling and does the complete opposite for a game, where you have humans, you have Marines who are slightly better humans, Tyranids who are basically humans too but with monsters instead of tanks, Eldar who are slightly faster humans, orks who are slightly tougher humans... It's all humanwashed. It's too much Star Wars, not enough greek myths. Everything is too equal. Guardsmen charging and cutting down Nobz is too likely. Renegade Militia butchering Howling Banshees is too likely. Gretchin shooting down an Avatar is something that should never ever happen lorewise, yet gamewise it is not only possible but surprisingly probable. You just need a 6 to wound, and then all the Avatar has is his mediocre 3+ save. Then you have injured a demigod of molten iron with a fething revolver. A gakky revolver no less. Ew ew ew. I imagine it is quite painful for SoB players too to have their Celestians get charged by Conscripts and have the Celestians get wrecked (which isn't actually that unlikely). It's like GW purposefully made everything that is strong in the lore weaker so that '''''''''''heroics'''''''' are more likely (forge the narrative etc.). I mean, as long as a Nob would slice apart a squad of IG in melee combat with absolute ease in the lore, then it's still incredible heroics for the IG to beat nobz in melee if they do it in the actual game, no? Who cares that it's really not that unlikely with how the game is designed? :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Your argument falls flat on its face given that Celestians were I4 from 3rd to the end of 5th. The fact that they were that in the past is evidence enough that your marinewank of an idea is utter nonsense.

In the past, Genestealers had nothing to do with Tyranids. Slann and Zoats walked the battlefields. That was earlier than 3rd, but still equally outdated.

Times change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Reguardless, not everything is based on fluff. It makes sense on a balance level, and that's enough. Not everything has to be how it would be in the fluff. Else Tau would all be at least BS4, and kroot would be amazing in close combat.

True. The game is more an 'arcade' style game. Despite what GW says, it really is not suitable for immersion and narrative, as noted above. RPGs should be used for that.

It should be noted that I do not hate Battle Sisters. The boobplate is cringy but I really want to like them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I said that superhuman speed (which Astartes possess)

They have not been shown to possess noticeably greater speed than trained humans.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That said, they are still human - that is what they are.

Do you, or do you not believe that I4 is inhuman.

You claim you don't believe that, but you constantly insinuate it is. Make up your mind.

I believe that Marines possess inhuman speed, something consistently supported by the game's background (outside of rare outliers like Cain). I do not think I4 perfectly represents it, although I4 human models are so rare so it's not a huge deal despite the inconsistency.

I4 Celestians and I5 Marines would be ideal, though many other things would need adjusting as well. Adjusting just Celestians or adjusting nothing would leave problems.

In case you want it, I can provide at least ten separate lore references to Marine superhuman speed, just off the top of my head. Shall I?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I believe that Marines possess inhuman speed, something consistently supported by the game's background

GW lore frequently describes humans having "inhuman speed". Claiming that this is something unachievable by humans is thus utter crap.

It's not a statement of fact, it's just an overused descriptor by lazy authors to describe someone going "you know, really fast, I mean oh my gosh".

There is no reason for MArines to be I5 except for an irrational desire for some boring, unfluffy "movie marines" nonsense.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I believe that Marines possess inhuman speed, something consistently supported by the game's background

No it's not.

There are always rare outliers like Cain, but for each one of those, we have an equally unlikely outlier of a Marine running at supersonic speeds, killing hundreds of DE alone, and similar.

Once we account for the outlier factor (which can handily be dismissed as propaganda, or counterpropaganda as appropriate), we get a consistent result. And that result is superhuman speed.

So in the current state of the game, I do not think I4 for Celestians is the answer. (Cheaper?) special melee weapons + price drop + special acts of faith for more attacks/FNP/hatred? That sounds better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
It's not a statement of fact, it's just an overused descriptor by lazy authors to describe someone going "you know, really fast, I mean oh my gosh".

That is your opinion. It's not just 'superhuman etc', it says 'superhuman' and then shows them doing superhuman things (like striking three times per second with large weapons).