I've seen some people talk about using a Necron Destroyer Lord in a unit of Wraiths or Praetorians. He starts at the front, the wraiths move ahead in their movement (keeping in coherency), and then the lord uses his JSJ move to get back in front in the assault phase.
Is this legal?
I thought the entire unit had to be made up of JSJ models in order to make a JSJ move?
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.
just like psyker model-unit situation, this has been discussed a lot and, AFAIK, no consensus has been achieved.
Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
FlingitNow wrote: Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
FlingitNow wrote: Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
The rules for IC say they become a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes. He no longer is his own unit. He is now part of a unit that isn't a jet pack unit.
FlingitNow wrote: Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
He's talking about when the DLord is attached to the Wraith unit not when he is a jetpack unit. Unless you are claiming I can always target ICs in units as they remain separate units on their own?
FlingitNow wrote: Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
The rules for IC say they become a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes. He no longer is his own unit. He is now part of a unit that isn't a jet pack unit.
Good to know that Psyker ICs can no longer use any powers while attached to a nonPsyker unit.
FlingitNow wrote: Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
The rules for IC say they become a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes. He no longer is his own unit. He is now part of a unit that isn't a jet pack unit.
Good to know that Psyker ICs can no longer use any powers while attached to a nonPsyker unit.
Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole.
This is a known issue with the Psyker rules. It's also totally irrelevant to the current discussion, but nice try at derailing the Jet Pack discussion.
If a Destroyer Lord joins a unit that is not composed of Jet Pack models, he remains a Jet Pack Infantry model, but the unit is not a Jet Pack Unit and can't elect to perform a thrust move. The only way for a Jet Pack IC to perform a thrust move is to be alone OR to Join a Jet Pack unit.
Another solid question is whether or not a Necron Lord on foot attached to a unit of Destroyers is allowed to participate in a thrust move. After all, he counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes and it's an action the unit elects to take. No mention of models is ever made...
"A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase."
If a Destroyer Lord joins a unit that is not composed of Jet Pack models, he remains a Jet Pack Infantry model, but the unit is not a Jet Pack Unit and can't elect to perform a thrust move. "
Prove that he is no longer a Jet Pack Unit.
He counts as part of the other unit, but nothing states he loses any status or special rules he has.
FlingitNow wrote: Nope not legal the Thrust Move is a unit choice. So yes the unit has to be able to do a thrust move so the DLord in Praetorians or Wraiths slows both units down.
Yes legal, as nothing stops the DLord from being a jetpack unit.
Now you have both sides. Choose which you want.
The rules for IC say they become a part of the unit they join for all rules purposes. He no longer is his own unit. He is now part of a unit that isn't a jet pack unit.
Good to know that Psyker ICs can no longer use any powers while attached to a nonPsyker unit.
Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole.
The poorly designed psyker rules does not give you permission to ignore the clearly written IC rules
If a Destroyer Lord joins a unit that is not composed of Jet Pack models, he remains a Jet Pack Infantry model, but the unit is not a Jet Pack Unit and can't elect to perform a thrust move. "
Prove that he is no longer a Jet Pack Unit.
He counts as part of the other unit, but nothing states he loses any status or special rules he has.
Prove that he's a separate unit.
“If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.”
Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (Interactive Edition).” v1.0. Games Workshop, 2014. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.
So, if an IC is the last surviving model of a unit he has joined, he again becomes a unit of one model. This is a nice way of telling us that while he's joined to a unit, he isn't a unit of one model. In fact, we are explicitly told he counts as a part on the joined unit for all rules purposes.
If you have a Captain joined to a Tactical Squad, how many units are on the table? One, not two.
Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
Oberron wrote: Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
I think if we all can agree that as thrust move is movement? This is clearly allowing all type specific movement by an IC while in a unit.
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
I think if we all can agree that as thrust move is movement? This is clearly allowing all type specific movement by an IC while in a unit.
This doesn't change that thrusting is a unit level decision and the Wraith Unit doesn't have the option to thrust.
They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
FlingitNow wrote: They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
FlingitNow wrote: They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
FlingitNow wrote: They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
My point is that this seems like 'one rule for some, another rule for others'.
FlingitNow wrote: They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
My point is that this seems like 'one rule for some, another rule for others'.
Nope it seems that the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW so we have to change them to work. The fact that RaW the Destroyer Lord can't thrust move with Wraiths does not break an entire phase. It merely means an unfluffy combo no longer works together and is most likely why GW changed the unit type of Destroyers in the first place...
Oberron wrote: Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.
He isn't rejoining in the assault phase he is moving to the head of the group in the assault phase. Sorry for the confusion.
FlingitNow wrote: They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
I would say its the rules for ICs joining units that are broken.
Oberron wrote: Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.
He isn't rejoining in the assault phase he is moving to the head of the group in the assault phase. Sorry for the confusion.
Cool so he's not in the unit at all just running near them. As he can't make the thrust move if part of the unit.
FlingitNow wrote: They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
I would say its the rules for ICs joining units that are broken.
FlingitNow wrote: They follow the rules for their type. Their type requires a unit of jetpack to do a thrust move so they can't do that if in a non-jetpack unit as that is jot following the rules for their type but breaking the rules for their type.
Just like psykers follow the rules for units of their types and hence don't generate psychic dice unless they're in a unit of psykers.
Yes the Psyker rules are completely broken RaW. Also the Psyker rules talk about units with USRs but no units ever have USRs only models do. So I don't see your point?
My point is that this seems like 'one rule for some, another rule for others'.
Nope it seems that the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW so we have to change them to work. The fact that RaW the Destroyer Lord can't thrust move with Wraiths does not break an entire phase. It merely means an unfluffy combo no longer works together and is most likely why GW changed the unit type of Destroyers in the first place...
Regardless of whether you think it is an Unfluffy combo or not, or the possibility that GW changed the rule because of fuff reasons (HAHAHAHA), this is still indeed a case of "one rule for some, another rule for others." I doesn't matter how hard it breaks the game/phase/unit, you are still literally interpreting the same mechanic two different ways.
Nope it seems that the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW so we have to change them to work.
And who gets to decide what constitutes "broken"?
You're fine with dolling out RAI interpretations for psykers, but not for JSJ unit interactions - which some could argue are also broken. e.g. You obviously thin psykers not being able to use their powers because they've joined a unit is silly, and yet you're fine with Jetpack units not being able to use their abilities because they joined a unit.
Exact same problem, but you say one requires a RAI interpretation, the other has to be played RAW.
FlingitNow wrote: The fact that RaW the Destroyer Lord can't thrust move with Wraiths does not break an entire phase.
Nor does psykers not being able to cast when in units.
If I want to use my destroyer lord's JSJ movement, I need to either put him in a JSJ unit, or elde have him alone. Likewise, if you want your psykers to use their powers, you have to either put them in a psychic unit, or else have them alone.
Again, the issue is the same in both cases, but you want the solutions to be different.
Nope it seems that the Psychic rules are irreparably broken RaW so we have to change them to work.
And who gets to decide what constitutes "broken"?
You're fine with dolling out RAI interpretations for psykers, but not for JSJ unit interactions - which some could argue are also broken. e.g. You obviously thin psykers not being able to use their powers because they've joined a unit is silly, and yet you're fine with Jetpack units not being able to use their abilities because they joined a unit.
Exact same problem, but you say one requires a RAI interpretation, the other has to be played RAW.
FlingitNow wrote: The fact that RaW the Destroyer Lord can't thrust move with Wraiths does not break an entire phase.
Nor does psykers not being able to cast when in units.
If I want to use my destroyer lord's JSJ movement, I need to either put him in a JSJ unit, or elde have him alone. Likewise, if you want your psykers to use their powers, you have to either put them in a psychic unit, or else have them alone.
Again, the issue is the same in both cases, but you want the solutions to be different.
In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.
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Regardless of whether you think it is an Unfluffy combo or not, or the possibility that GW changed the rule because of fuff reasons (HAHAHAHA), this is still indeed a case of "one rule for some, another rule for others." I doesn't matter how hard it breaks the game/phase/unit, you are still literally interpreting the same mechanic two different ways.
Not really the Psychic phase rules are broken top to bottom the easiest fix for that also enables psykers to cast when in non-psyker units. The IC rules aren't broken so why change them? And yes GW seem to largely change rules to represent the fluff and break up power combos. They've been doing that since day 1. Buffmander & Riptide meet 7th Ed, Buffmandergravstar meet new faction allies, Tigirius Farsightbomb etc.
In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.
Surely RAW you'd only get the warp charges from psykers who are either on their own or in a unit of psykers? Annoying, certainly, but I'm not seeing the issue that breaks the phase or prevents them from ever casting even when alone.
In any case, you're again making the grandiose assumption that it's the psychic phase that's broken - rather than the IC rules.
But, again, this is just your opinion. You've just decided that it's the psychic phase that's broken and that we should change the wording of that. When, in fact, changing the IC rules would fix the psychic phase and interactions like JSJ units.
Surely RAW you'd only get the warp charges from psykers who are either on their own or in a unit of psykers? Annoying, certainly, but I'm not seeing the issue that breaks the phase or prevents them from ever casting even when alone.
In any case, you're again making the grandiose assumption that it's the psychic phase that's broken - rather than the IC rules.
You don't understand the RaW clearly so either read it or drop the argument. Just saying surely this thing is RaW doesn't make it RaW.
So first we have a Psyker unit is a unit that has the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers rule. Find me such a unit anywhere in any codex (remembering they need and explicit rule stating that the unit has the rule not the models as usual).
Let's ignore that for a second and move to generating Warp Charge for a lvl2 Psyker in a Brotherhood with lvl1 tell me the Warp Charge that UNIT generates using RaW.
Then to cast a power select a power known to the unit. Only BoP know powers as a unit so a lone psyker can indeed NEVER cast a power.
So first we have a Psyker unit is a unit that has the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers rule. Find me such a unit anywhere in any codex (remembering they need and explicit rule stating that the unit has the rule not the models as usual).
Eh?
Doesn't it say in the rules somewhere that single models are still units by themselves?
I know independent characters that aren't joined to squads are units of one model.
Without wishing to sound offensive, I think you're the one who needs to revisit the rulebook.
They are units of 1 model. But the unit and modelare still separate entities rules wise. So again if you don't understand rules don't try to use them to justify your argument.
FlingitNow wrote: They are units of 1 model. But the unit and modelare still separate entities rules wise.
Eh?
I'm not sure you even know what you're talking about any more.
How can they possibly be separate entries? A IC psyker is a model wth the psyker special rule. But, if he's alone on the table, then he's also a unit (of one) with the psyker special rule.
No the unit does not know the USR the model knows it. Models and units are defined entities in the rules. Model level rules don't interact with units and vice versa, unless specifically stated. So once again name me a single unit anywhere in the game with the Psyker or BoPUSRs?
FlingitNow wrote: No the unit does not know the USR the model knows it. Models and units are defined entities in the rules. Model level rules don't interact with units and vice versa, unless specifically stated. So once again name me a single unit anywhere in the game with the Psyker or BoPUSRs?
Sorry, but I'm completely unable to follow your logic. By your reasoning, a lone IC apparently cannot have any special rules.
FlingitNow wrote: No the unit does not know the USR the model knows it. Models and units are defined entities in the rules. Model level rules don't interact with units and vice versa, unless specifically stated. So once again name me a single unit anywhere in the game with the Psyker or BoPUSRs?
Sorry, but I'm completely unable to follow your logic. By your reasoning, a lone IC apparently cannot have any special rules.
His unit can't he can. Check the what special rules do I have section for an explanation of who has special rules.
You're saying that a model can have a special rule and yet a unit consisting of that model and nothing else somehow doesn't have that special rule. Could you please explain in more detail how this is even remotely possible?
Surely, at the very least, the unit has that special rule because every model in the unit (all one of them) has that rule?
We know the model has the special rule because the rules tell us they do. Do you have any rules telling us that the unit has the special rule? Or indeed in anyway defines what special rules units have?
In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.
You do have a way to determine warp charges. It would be 0 for a mixed unit, as it is not a psyker unit. The phase still works fine, you would just sacrifice any Psyker's abilities that joined a unit for that turn. Stop trying to claim that one model losing an ability is more important than another; that is a completely subjective matter.
FlingitNow wrote: We know the model has the special rule because the rules tell us they do. Do you have any rules telling us that the unit has the special rule?
Why wouldn't it? The unit consists of a single model with those rules, ergo the unit has those rules.
You seem desperate for this not to work and I'm struggling to understand why.
FlingitNow wrote: Or indeed in anyway defines what special rules units have?
You tell me. You're the one making really bizarre assumptions regarding what rules units have or don't have.
Also, if indeed you're right, then all you seem to have done is disproved your own point - clearly the IC character rules cannot possibly be fine.
Why would it? This is a permissive ruleset the unit only has Special Rules that the rules tell us it has. You're making the claim that because a model in a unit has the rule therefore the unit does. For this to be the case you need to find the rule telling you this.
In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.
You do have a way to determine warp charges. It would be 0 for a mixed unit, as it is not a psyker unit. The phase still works fine, you would just sacrifice any Psyker's abilities that joined a unit for that turn. Stop trying to claim that one model losing an ability is more important than another; that is a completely subjective matter.
Please tell me using actual RaW what Warp charge the following units generate:
FlingitNow wrote: Why would it? This is a permissive ruleset the unit only has Special Rules that the rules tell us it has. You're making the claim that because the only model in a unit has the rule therefore the unitof that one model does. For this to be the case you need to find the rule telling you this.
Fixed that for you.
Also, you realise that by your logic, no unit can ever have a special rule?
Yes no unit ever has a special rule. Why does that surprise you? Also it is not my logic but clearly what the rules state. The rules state models have special rules therefore models have special rules. The rules do not state that units have special rules therefore they don't.
You got 1 out of 3 correct RaW. The other 2 are RaW also both zero as none of them are not pskyer units.
FlingitNow wrote: Why would it? This is a permissive ruleset the unit only has Special Rules that the rules tell us it has. You're making the claim that because a model in a unit has the rule therefore the unit does. For this to be the case you need to find the rule telling you this.
In that case don't bring up the Psychic rules if you don't understand them. It doesn't simply stop Psykers from casting when in a non-Psyker unit. It means no psyker can EVER cast. You have no way to determine Warp Charge for any mixed units, or indeed any units. As stated the Psychic phase doesn't work as a whole RaW.
You do have a way to determine warp charges. It would be 0 for a mixed unit, as it is not a psyker unit. The phase still works fine, you would just sacrifice any Psyker's abilities that joined a unit for that turn. Stop trying to claim that one model losing an ability is more important than another; that is a completely subjective matter.
Please tell me using actual RaW what Warp charge the following units generate:
Eldrad (lvl4) in a unit of Dire Avengers.
Eldrad (lvl4) on his own
Draigo (lvl2) in a unit of Strikes (lvl1)
I'm guessing you get 1 out of 3 correct RaW.
Dire Avenger unit = 0 WC
Solo Eldrad = 4 WC
Strikes unit = 1 WC
Still works, just not optimal for Psyker heavy armies, just like the JSJ issue.
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FlingitNow wrote: Yes no unit ever has a special rule. Why does that surprise you? Also it is not my logic but clearly what the rules state. The rules state models have special rules therefore models have special rules. The rules do not state that units have special rules therefore they don't.
You got 1 out of 3 correct RaW. The other 2 are RaW also both zero as none of them are not pskyer units.
This is false. Also units do have special rules. Go read the Eldar Codex, plenty in there.
Again wrong on 2 counts. As none are psyker units as defined in the BrB. If they were psyker units (skipping over the RaW fail there) then there is literally no way to determine the answer to the first or last examples.
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This is false. Also units do have special rules. Go read the Eldar Codex, plenty in there.
Care to quote that?
Automatically Appended Next Post: For example note page 96 point 10.
FlingitNow wrote: Again wrong on 2 counts. As none are psyker units as defined in the BrB. If they were psyker units (skipping over the RaW fail there) then there is literally no way to determine the answer to the first or last examples.
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This is false. Also units do have special rules. Go read the Eldar Codex, plenty in there.
Care to quote that?
Automatically Appended Next Post: For example note page 96 point 10.
Dire Avengers are not a unit with the Psker special rule. No ML
Eldrad is a unit with the Psyker special rule. ML 4
Strikes are a unit with the BoP special rule. ML 1
Relevant rules are listed in their profiles.
Look at any Aspect Warrior unit in the Eldar Codex and read for yourself what special rules they have.
Oberron wrote: Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.
He isn't rejoining in the assault phase he is moving to the head of the group in the assault phase. Sorry for the confusion.
Cool so he's not in the unit at all just running near them. As he can't make the thrust move if part of the unit.
You still seem to be misunderstanding. He can make the thrust move if part of the unit. "while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows the rules for characters."
Under characters pg 100 Characters and Moving "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in (pg 19)."
Eldrad is a unit with the Psyker special rule. ML 4
Strikes are a unit with the BoP special rule. ML 1
Relevant rules are listed in their profiles.
Look at any Aspect Warrior unit in the Eldar Codex and read for yourself what special rules they have.
Those rules are for the MODELs in the unit check the rules. Please provide ANY rule that states a unit has a special rule. I'll take this as your concession as you are just stating things already proven false.
Oberron wrote: Why not just move the destroyer first out of unit coherency since doing that doesn't require end of Movement phase check then move the wraiths or pratoriens forward leaving a conga line back to the D.lord? In the assault phase the D.lord can still make his move since he still follows rules for characters and under characters it reads "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in." (pg 100) and use the assault movement to try to move ahead of the pack again?
If the Dlord detached in the movement phase he can't rejoin in the assault phase. If he didn't he couldn't make the thrust move as has been explicitly pointed out in this thread. It is just like Broadsides/Fire Warriors and their drones.
He isn't rejoining in the assault phase he is moving to the head of the group in the assault phase. Sorry for the confusion.
Cool so he's not in the unit at all just running near them. As he can't make the thrust move if part of the unit.
You still seem to be misunderstanding. He can make the thrust move if part of the unit. "while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows the rules for characters."
Under characters pg 100 Characters and Moving "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in (pg 19)."
Yes you have to follow the rules for their unit type not break those rules. Breaking rules is not following rules.
The rules are listed in the UNIT entires, on the UNIT data cards. They are for the UNIT.
Yes you have to follow the rules for their unit type not break those rules. Breaking rules is not following rules.
Hilarious. But, in this case no. IC are specifically told that they follow the rules for ICs. The rules for IC's tell them to move as their MODEL type, even when joind to another unit.
The rules are listed in the UNIT entires, on the UNIT data cards. They are for the UNIT.
Yet the rules don't say this as you know. So why are you stating things you know to be untrue? It is not helpful for the discussion. As we know from page 96 that those rules are the special rules that the MODELS in the unit have, which matches up with the BrB section on "what special rules do I have". So again please quote any rule that states a unit has special rules.
Hilarious. But, in this case no. IC are specifically told that they follow the rules for ICs. The rules for IC's tell them to move as their MODEL type, even when joind to another unit.
Model type doesn't exist. Unit types do and they are a model level rule. However thrust move is a unit level rule and thus requires the entire unit to have the rule for it to work. So you stillhave to follow that rule when attached.
Now do you have any actual rules to support your baseless assertations?
Fling, could one not argue that if a model has a special rule, the unit possess said rule, much like units and wargear?
For example, if I buy a Tac Squad and upgrade one model to have a Meltagun, couldn't an argument be made that the Tac Squad has a Meltagun? If so, then I could argue that a unit has the Fleet special rule if just one model has the special rule.
Of course all of this has nothing to do with a Destroyer Lord thrusting in the Assault phase, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.
Happyjew wrote: Fling, could one not argue that if a model has a special rule, the unit possess said rule, much like units and wargear?
For example, if I buy a Tac Squad and upgrade one model to have a Meltagun, couldn't an argument be made that the Tac Squad has a Meltagun? If so, then I could argue that a unit has the Fleet special rule if just one model has the special rule.
Of course all of this has nothing to do with a Destroyer Lord thrusting in the Assault phase, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.
You could say that, but it is not RaW. The unit does not fleet because A model has fleet. Essentially we have no way of knowing what properties a unit has based on the models properties. For instance say a Commissar Lord joins your tactical squad does the tactical squad have the Astra Militarum faction for triggering PE for instance?
When precision doesn't matter it does no harm to say the imprecise phrase "this tactical squad has a meltagun", in other cases it is not so appropriate.
The rules are listed in the UNIT entires, on the UNIT data cards. They are for the UNIT.
Yet the rules don't say this as you know. So why are you stating things you know to be untrue? It is not helpful for the discussion. As we know from page 96 that those rules are the special rules that the MODELS in the unit have, which matches up with the BrB section on "what special rules do I have". So again please quote any rule that states a unit has special rules.
Hilarious. But, in this case no. IC are specifically told that they follow the rules for ICs. The rules for IC's tell them to move as their MODEL type, even when joind to another unit.
Model type doesn't exist. Unit types do and they are a model level rule. However thrust move is a unit level rule and thus requires the entire unit to have the rule for it to work. So you stillhave to follow that rule when attached.
Now do you have any actual rules to support your baseless assertations?
Are you delusional? (serious question) Have you even been reading the posts? (again, serious)
"while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows the rules for characters."
Under characters
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in..."
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type..."
Yes model of their type, meaning unit type, unless you have another type you think it is referring to? If so please explain what type and where these are defined.
I've noticed you've neglected to mention your bizarre claim that units have special rules this time and again refuse to post or reference any rules that support your increasingly bizarre claims.
FlingitNow wrote: Yes model of their type, meaning unit type, unless you have another type you think it is referring to? If so please explain what type and where these are defined.
I've noticed you've neglected to mention your bizarre claim that units have special rules this time and again refuse to post or reference any rules that support your increasingly bizarre claims.
WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.
I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.
FlingitNow wrote: Yes model of their type, meaning unit type, unless you have another type you think it is referring to? If so please explain what type and where these are defined.
I've noticed you've neglected to mention your bizarre claim that units have special rules this time and again refuse to post or reference any rules that support your increasingly bizarre claims.
WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.
I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.
Guys, let's keep this polite. What is being said, and that I don't think you're recognizing is that, generally speaking, units don't have special rules. Generally speaking, individual models within a unit have special rules. The Psyker rules tend to be broken because there is not a single UNIT in the game with the Psyker special rule. There are plenty of MODELS with it, but no UNITs.
"while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows // the movement rules for models of their type (Jet Pack Infantry), whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in..."
WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.
I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.
OK where do I find rules for model types? Or have you invented them?
The rules listed under a unit entry are the rules the MODELS in the unit have, not what the unit has. We are told this both in the BrB and in all 7th Edition codexes. 6th Ed codexes are less clear by simply listing special rules in unit entries however the BrB tells us how to deal with these and NOTHING in the codex contradicts this. If you want to make a bizarre claim that something exists in the rules you need to support that. I can't quote a rule because this is a permissive ruleset so unless you have a rule giving permission for units to have Special Rules then they can't (note how I have been able to provide such rules for models).
FlingitNow wrote: Yes model of their type, meaning unit type, unless you have another type you think it is referring to? If so please explain what type and where these are defined.
I've noticed you've neglected to mention your bizarre claim that units have special rules this time and again refuse to post or reference any rules that support your increasingly bizarre claims.
WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.
I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.
Guys, let's keep this polite. What is being said, and that I don't think you're recognizing is that, generally speaking, units don't have special rules. Generally speaking, individual models within a unit have special rules. The Psyker rules tend to be broken because there is not a single UNIT in the game with the Psyker special rule. There are plenty of MODELS with it, but no UNITs.
That changes nothing about the Rule OP was asking about.
WOW....read the rule man. "their type" ......meaning the IC model the rule is talking about. Not units. Units are never mentioned, and thus are NOT being refered to. Its Models. FFS mate.
I told you.....twice now, go read a codex. It doesn't matter that the BRB doesnt say "Units can have special rules" to the letter. That permission is granted by the codex when it lists special rules on the UNIT ENTRIES. I'm not going to post the rules for almost every unit in the game. The burden is on YOU to educate yourself.
OK where do I find rules for model types? Or have you invented them?
The rules listed under a unit entry are the rules the MODELS in the unit have, not what the unit has. We are told this both in the BrB and in all 7th Edition codexes. 6th Ed codexes are less clear by simply listing special rules in unit entries however the BrB tells us how to deal with these and NOTHING in the codex contradicts this. If you want to make a bizarre claim that something exists in the rules you need to support that. I can't quote a rule because this is a permissive ruleset so unless you have a rule giving permission for units to have Special Rules then they can't (note how I have been able to provide such rules for models).
Where does it say that special rules in unit entries apply to models?
Either way, it doesnt matter. Has nothing to do with the original JSJ question. The rules I have quoted lay it out easily. IC move as any model of its type normally would, joined or not.
"while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows // the movement rules for models of their type (Jet Pack Infantry), whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in..."
I'm not really interested in editing the rules to make new sentences. Can we just debate the actual rules as written and not change them around?
In the Eldar codex page 96 and in the BrB under the section on what special rules do I have. How many times does that have to be pointed out to you?
Cool so they are following the rules for a model of their UNIT type or MODEL type? If the later please tell me where I find rules for Model Types as my rulebook ONLY contains rules for Unit Types.
In reply to:
Where does it say that special rules in unit entries apply to models?
Either way, it doesnt matter. Has nothing to do with the original JSJ question. The rules I have quoted lay it out easily. IC move as any model of its type normally would, joined or not.
"while an Independent Characer is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules, purposes, thought he still follows // the movement rules for models of their type (Jet Pack Infantry), whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that trhey must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in..."
I'm not really interested in editing the rules to make new sentences. Can we just debate the actual rules as written and not change them around?
Then debate it. That sentence stands just fine rules wise.
Ok then... if I have a Destroyer Lord who has joined a unit of Canoptek Wraiths, please explain the chain of events that allows him to perform a Jet Pack thrust move.
I would do so, but the rules don't support it. The burden is on you to prove he can.
Keep in mind that while in the Canoptek Wraith unit, the Destroyer Lord is no longer a unit of one model. Furthermore, keep in mind that activating a Jet Pack thrust move requires a Jet Pack unit, which we don't have.
It seems like your argument is predicated on the Destroyer Lord still being treated as a separate unit while he is a part of the Wraith unit. This is not the case.
FlingitNow wrote: In the Eldar codex page 96 and in the BrB under the section on what special rules do I have. How many times does that have to be pointed out to you?
Cool so they are following the rules for a model of their UNIT type or MODEL type? If the later please tell me where I find rules for Model Types as my rulebook ONLY contains rules for Unit Types.
Honestly, the rule does not care whether it is MODEL or UNIT. The check is on the character. What type is the character? Jetpack Infantry? Good per the BRB we know the charcater can move as Jetpack Infantry because they SPECIFICALLY say we can.
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type."
This is one of the most clearly written rules in the book. At this point your arguments are so convoluted, I'm not even sure if you understand them.
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Kriswall wrote: Ok then... if I have a Destroyer Lord who has joined a unit of Canoptek Wraiths, please explain the chain of events that allows him to perform a Jet Pack thrust move.
I would do so, but the rules don't support it. The burden is on you to prove he can.
Keep in mind that while in the Canoptek Wraith unit, the Destroyer Lord is no longer a unit of one model. Furthermore, keep in mind that activating a Jet Pack thrust move requires a Jet Pack unit, which we don't have.
It seems like your argument is predicated on the Destroyer Lord still being treated as a separate unit while he is a part of the Wraith unit. This is not the case.
By that logic he cant move at all...The movement rules for characters say nothing of checking unit type. The check is on the character's type and we are given specific permission to move the character independently from the unit as long as the character remains coherant.
FlingitNow wrote: In the Eldar codex page 96 and in the BrB under the section on what special rules do I have. How many times does that have to be pointed out to you?
Cool so they are following the rules for a model of their UNIT type or MODEL type? If the later please tell me where I find rules for Model Types as my rulebook ONLY contains rules for Unit Types.
Honestly, the rule does not care whether it is MODEL or UNIT. The check is on the character. What type is the character? Jetpack Infantry? Good per the BRB we know the charcater can move as Jetpack Infantry because they SPECIFICALLY say we can.
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type."
This is one of the most clearly written rules in the book. At this point your arguments are so convoluted, I'm not even sure if you understand them.
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Kriswall wrote: Ok then... if I have a Destroyer Lord who has joined a unit of Canoptek Wraiths, please explain the chain of events that allows him to perform a Jet Pack thrust move.
I would do so, but the rules don't support it. The burden is on you to prove he can.
Keep in mind that while in the Canoptek Wraith unit, the Destroyer Lord is no longer a unit of one model. Furthermore, keep in mind that activating a Jet Pack thrust move requires a Jet Pack unit, which we don't have.
It seems like your argument is predicated on the Destroyer Lord still being treated as a separate unit while he is a part of the Wraith unit. This is not the case.
By that logic he cant move at all...The movement rules for characters say nothing of checking unit type. The check is on the character's type and we are given specific permission to move the character independently from the unit as long as the character remains coherant.
What? That makes no sense at all. What specific part of the movement rules do you have an issue with? I didn't raise the issue of movement at all, so I'm not sure how to address your incredibly vague comment.
"THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase."
Point out the permission in the above statement that allows an IC who is NOT currently a unit of one model to perform a Thrust Move when attached to a unit that is NOT composed of Jet Pack Infantry. Thanks.
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency.
As I believe it's the unit that Runs or does not run, there's no mixing different movement types. A bike would not be able to turbo-boost, being forbidden to run and the unit cannot turbo-boost.
BRBpg 38:
RUN ... In their Shooting phase, units may choose to Run instead of firing.
BRBpg 63:
TURBO-BOOST Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting page.
BRBpg 65:
JUMP UNITS ... Note that the entire unit must always use the same form of movement.
Kriswall pasted the THRUST MOVE above. There's again the rule limiting the use of the Jet Pack to the unit, not the model. That's consistent with how the above sentences have been structured, thus the lord cannot Thrust Move as part of a wraith unit.
Honestly, the rule does not care whether it is MODEL or UNIT. The check is on the character. What type is the character? Jetpack Infantry? Good per the BRB we know the charcater can move as Jetpack Infantry because they SPECIFICALLY say we can.
So now there's character types too? How many rules do you have to invent? Given that by refusal to post where model types are listed I assume you concede they don't. So now can you please list where the rules for character types are? Or can we accept that on UNIT TYPES exist? As they are the only thing the rules ever define?
This is one of the most clearly written rules in the book. At this point your arguments are so convoluted, I'm not even sure if you understand them.
It appears not as it seems to be confusing the hell out of you so much you've tried to invent model types and now character types...
It says you move as per your unit type rules. So you move 6" ignoring intervening terrain etc. Then to thrust move you must be in an entire jetpack unit. You aren't so you can't. The rules are very clear. Breaking the rule that requires you to be in a Jetpack unit to do a thrust move is not following the rules for the Jetpack Infantry unit type. Breaking rules is not the same as following them, I really don't understand why this concept is so difficult for you to understand.
So the other way of looking at it is whether or not an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek joining a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers gets a JSJ move since he's / she's now inside a unit of Jet Pack Infantry.
Of course not.
Inventing rules so that IC's lose or change their special rules when they join units doesn't work.
Ffyllotek wrote: So the other way of looking at it is whether or not an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek joining a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers gets a JSJ move since he's / she's now inside a unit of Jet Pack Infantry.
Of course not.
Inventing rules so that IC's lose or change their special rules when they join units doesn't work.
Sadly it is because of one, very very bad rule: "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
They do indeed gain Unit-wide Special rules, Detachment Rules given to Units, or Special Rules granted to Units. I hope they change this rule one day....
Spoiler:
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Kriswall wrote: Point out the permission in the above statement that allows an IC who is NOT currently a unit of one model to perform a Thrust Move when attached to a unit that is NOT composed of Jet Pack Infantry. Thanks.
whoop whoop, Kriswall, i *think* i might have cracked this..... Let me know what you think.
So, as i was mulling over how horribly broken "for all rules purposes" was, i noticed that this very Rule that everyone loves to use as support has a clearly written exception: "though he still follows the rules for characters"
So, an IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" BUT uses the rules for characters. Now i glanced through those and found this:
CHARACTER AND MOVING Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This would add movement rules to the standard "Unit moving" rules, such as an "Infantry" Unit with a "Bike" character, or Jet-Pack Character with Infantry Unit. The only limitation is Unit coherency, a specification that would be completely redundant if they were all forced to move at the same speed...
[EDIT] Maaayybe i should have read the thread fully and not skimmed it.... All has been said already .... And i find myself agreeing with "move at different speeds"...
Ffyllotek wrote: So the other way of looking at it is whether or not an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek joining a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers gets a JSJ move since he's / she's now inside a unit of Jet Pack Infantry.
Of course not.
Inventing rules so that IC's lose or change their special rules when they join units doesn't work.
Is it a jetpack unit once the character joins? I'd argue no so neither the Destroyers nor the Lord can thrust move.
Ffyllotek wrote: So the other way of looking at it is whether or not an Overlord, Lord or Cryptek joining a unit of Destroyers or Heavy Destroyers gets a JSJ move since he's / she's now inside a unit of Jet Pack Infantry.
Of course not.
Inventing rules so that IC's lose or change their special rules when they join units doesn't work.
From a strict rules as written standpoint, a non Jet Pack IC who joins a unit of Jet Pack Infantry does indeed make a Thrust Move. The Thrust Move doesn't require that all models in the unit have the Jet Pack type... only that the unit itself be a Jet Pack unit. Before the IC joins, the unit is most assuredly a Jet Pack unit. After he joins, he counts as a part of the unit for all rules purposes.
It's non-intuitive, and I would imagine that most people don't play it this way, but a non Jet Pack IC in a unit of Jet Pack type models CAN make a Thrust Move along with the rest of the unit. If you need a fluff reason, imagine that one of the actual Jet Pack models in the unit briefly says, "Here boss... I'll carry you". It's like every comic book I've ever read where Superman carries the one guy who can't fly.
Compare this to a unit of non Jet Pack models like the Canoptek Wraiths. Before the IC joins, the unit is most assuredly NOT a Jet Pack unit. The Wraiths don't have access to a Thrust Move. Once the IC joins, he's a part of the unit for all rules purposes. The unit STILL doesn't know how to make a Thrust Move. It doesn't matter that the IC does. The rules NEVER give a single model the option to Thrust Move. The rules give units the option to Thrust Move. Once the IC joins the Wraiths, he is no longer a unit of one model and is instead a single model inside of a larger unit.
I may be under thinking this. But wouldn't this fall under different movement distances withing a unit? Pg. 18 under movement rules? A thrust move us still movement, therefore must follow the basic rules of movement except where exceptions are made correct? *similar to the over watch must follow shooting rules argument for multitracker and abilities* the unit has a jet pack unit, therefore they have permission to make a thrust move. Follow all restrictions *can't charge and what not* the difference is movement allowed 0 for the wraith 2D6 for the jet pack units. Am I missing something that disallows this?
Yes, it is a slight under think - the permisison ot make a thrust move is predicated on the UNIT being able to make a thrust move, and not considering individual models.
Its a litlte like a cavalry IC in a unit of bikes not gaining any benefit from fleet. Doesnt make a huge amount of "sense", but is rules.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, it is a slight under think - the permisison ot make a thrust move is predicated on the UNIT being able to make a thrust move, and not considering individual models.
But don't ICs follow the rules for *units* of their type when in another unit? And jet pack *units* can make a thrust move.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes, it is a slight under think - the permisison ot make a thrust move is predicated on the UNIT being able to make a thrust move, and not considering individual models.
But don't ICs follow the rules for *units* of their type when in another unit? And jet pack *units* can make a thrust move.
They follow their unit type, yes
Now find a rule allowing the IC - which is NOT a unit while a member of the Wraith unit - to make a unit level decision.
The Wraith unit is the unit that must be determined if it can make a thrust move or not, and the wraith unit is not jet pack, so cannot do so. The IC is stuck as it can not invoke, by itself, a unit level rule.
Which is what Fling is on about, albeit unhelpfully as usual. Units rarely have rules, individuals models do in stead. So the unit most certaiunly is NOT a jet pack unit, and cannot make a jet pack move.
What is a jetpack unit? I'm confident a unit comprised solely of models with the Jetpack unit type is a jetpack unit. Is a unit that includes some models with JP unit type considered a Jetpack unit? Can you prove that?
What is a jetpack unit? I'm confident a unit comprised solely of models with the Jetpack unit type is a jetpack unit. Is a unit that includes some models with JP unit type considered a Jetpack unit? Can you prove that?
Do you have a rules citation to back up your assertion that the unit has to be comprised solely of models with the Jet Pack unit type?
As has been stated, as per the rules...
Unit A is comprised of Beasts with a joined Jet Pack IC. This is a Beasts unit.
Unit B is comprised of Jet Pack Infantry with a joined Infantry IC. This is a Jet Pack unit.
What is a jetpack unit? I'm confident a unit comprised solely of models with the Jetpack unit type is a jetpack unit. Is a unit that includes some models with JP unit type considered a Jetpack unit? Can you prove that?
Do you have a rules citation to back up your assertion that the unit has to be comprised solely of models with the Jet Pack unit type?
As has been stated, as per the rules...
Unit A is comprised of Beasts with a joined Jet Pack IC. This is a Beasts unit.
Unit B is comprised of Jet Pack Infantry with a joined Infantry IC. This is a Jet Pack unit.
The rules don't actually say that do they. They say he is part of the unit for all rules purposes not that he gains all the properties of the models in the unit. Which is what you are claiming.
What is a jetpack unit? I'm confident a unit comprised solely of models with the Jetpack unit type is a jetpack unit. Is a unit that includes some models with JP unit type considered a Jetpack unit? Can you prove that?
Do you have a rules citation to back up your assertion that the unit has to be comprised solely of models with the Jet Pack unit type?
As has been stated, as per the rules...
Unit A is comprised of Beasts with a joined Jet Pack IC. This is a Beasts unit.
Unit B is comprised of Jet Pack Infantry with a joined Infantry IC. This is a Jet Pack unit.
The rules don't actually say that do they. They say he is part of the unit for all rules purposes not that he gains all the properties of the models in the unit. Which is what you are claiming.
I'm claiming nothing of the sort. I'm not saying that the IC actually changes his unit type. Please remember that "model" and "unit" are not the same thing. A unit consisting of 3 Necron Destroyers and 1 Necron Lord is a "Jet Pack Unit" consisting of "3 Jet Pack unit type models and 1 Infantry (Character) unit type model". At no point did I say that the Lord becomes a Jet Pack Infantry model. He simply is able to benefit from the Jet Pack Thrust Move by being in the right place at the right time... namely as one model in a Jet Pack unit.
I'm claiming nothing of the sort. I'm not saying that the IC actually changes his unit type. Please remember that "model" and "unit" are not the same thing. A unit consisting of 3 Necron Destroyers and 1 Necron Lord is a "Jet Pack Unit" consisting of "3 Jet Pack unit type models and 1 Infantry (Character) unit type model". At no point did I say that the Lord becomes a Jet Pack Infantry model. He simply is able to benefit from the Jet Pack Thrust Move by being in the right place at the right time... namely as one model in a Jet Pack unit.
So how do you know it is a jetpack unit? What rules are you using to determine that? Or are you contesting that ICs joining aunit never change the unit properties of that unit?
BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
The Thrust Move is a special feature of Jet Pack units. It's not really a model's movement at all. Jet Pack models move as per their "parent type". So, Jet Pack Infantry models move as per regular Infantry models. In other words, the Destroyer Lord gets to move 6" in the movement phase and 0" in the Assault phase. IF he's part of a Jet Pack unit that elects to make the UNIT LEVEL decision to activate a Thrust Move, he gets to make an additional move of 2D6"... as do all other models in the unit. The Thrust Move has nothing to do with the individual models. It is only relevant to the unit as a whole.
BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
The Thrust Move is a special feature of Jet Pack units. It's not really a model's movement at all. Jet Pack models move as per their "parent type". So, Jet Pack Infantry models move as per regular Infantry models. In other words, the Destroyer Lord gets to move 6" in the movement phase and 0" in the Assault phase. IF he's part of a Jet Pack unit that elects to make the UNIT LEVEL decision to activate a Thrust Move, he gets to make an additional move of 2D6"... as do all other models in the unit. The Thrust Move has nothing to do with the individual models. It is only relevant to the unit as a whole.
Having the RaW before me i disagree. It's not in the movement phase, but it is the "Unit Type:Jet Pack" movement, and therefore is covered by "follow the movement rules for models of their type":
Movement:
"Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs" <= Using the Jet pack = part of movement
"When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move[...])<= Thrust move = Using the Jet pack
So Thrust move = Using the Jet pack = part of movement and characters do so independently from a Unit.
BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
The Thrust Move is a special feature of Jet Pack units. It's not really a model's movement at all. Jet Pack models move as per their "parent type". So, Jet Pack Infantry models move as per regular Infantry models. In other words, the Destroyer Lord gets to move 6" in the movement phase and 0" in the Assault phase. IF he's part of a Jet Pack unit that elects to make the UNIT LEVEL decision to activate a Thrust Move, he gets to make an additional move of 2D6"... as do all other models in the unit. The Thrust Move has nothing to do with the individual models. It is only relevant to the unit as a whole.
Having the RaW before me i disagree. It's not in the movement phase, but it is the "Unit Type:Jet Pack" movement, and therefore is covered by "follow the movement rules for models of their type":
Movement:
"Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs" <= Using the Jet pack = part of movement
"When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move[...])<= Thrust move = Using the Jet pack
So Thrust move = Using the Jet pack = part of movement and characters do so independently from a Unit.
Ok, fair. Can you cite permission for a Jet Pack Infantry IC who is NOT in a Jet Pack unit to activate a Thrust Move. I freely grant that if he has the option to activate a Thrust Move, that as a Jet Pack unit type having model, he can perform one. HOWEVER, before he can perform one, he needs permission. Show the permission. Remember that while in another unit, he, himself, is not a unit.
BlackTalos wrote: At this point i would support this rule, as has already been stated: "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
So even though it is a "Beast Unit", any characters with different Unit Types will be restricted.
I would say this applies to thrust moves as it is the Unit's "movement"...
The Thrust Move is a special feature of Jet Pack units. It's not really a model's movement at all. Jet Pack models move as per their "parent type". So, Jet Pack Infantry models move as per regular Infantry models. In other words, the Destroyer Lord gets to move 6" in the movement phase and 0" in the Assault phase. IF he's part of a Jet Pack unit that elects to make the UNIT LEVEL decision to activate a Thrust Move, he gets to make an additional move of 2D6"... as do all other models in the unit. The Thrust Move has nothing to do with the individual models. It is only relevant to the unit as a whole.
Having the RaW before me i disagree. It's not in the movement phase, but it is the "Unit Type:Jet Pack" movement, and therefore is covered by "follow the movement rules for models of their type":
Movement: "Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs" <= Using the Jet pack = part of movement "When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move[...])<= Thrust move = Using the Jet pack
So Thrust move = Using the Jet pack = part of movement and characters do so independently from a Unit.
Ok, fair. Can you cite permission for a Jet Pack Infantry IC who is NOT in a Jet Pack unit to activate a Thrust Move. I freely grant that if he has the option to activate a Thrust Move, that as a Jet Pack unit type having model, he can perform one. HOWEVER, before he can perform one, he needs permission. Show the permission. Remember that while in another unit, he, himself, is not a unit.
Obviously that has no RaW, but at this point i would go by simple logic:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type" (I emphasise on "ALL" movement Rules, not just Movement Phase ones... + Characters >= ICs)
The model: Overlord, follows (in the Assault Phase) the movement rules for models of the Type: Jet Pack Infantry, who have permission, as a Unit, to Thrust move.
I'd point out, before the Unit V Model is used again, that Cavalry or Bikes do not mention "models" or "Unit", and i would apply the same logic: "Cavalry can move up to 12"(...)" "Bikes and Jetbikes can move up to 12"(...)" "Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move(...)"
This is all "movement", which characters can do "separately" from their Units.
I do emphasise on "character", so this is intended even "within" a Unit (with no ICs attached)
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
rule, which seems to be the key.
To me this means all the rules for shooting, selecting targets, coherency etc. But is further qualified by the
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in."
rule.
Quite clearly it says they follow rules for their type. This implies their type doesn't change when they join a unit. Seems pretty clear to me.
The thrust move rule as you are making a thrust move withoyt being a Jetpack Unit
Correction: The Character is making a thrust move, as is allowed by his Unit Type.
The Unit has never made a thrust move, the character alone is using the rule:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
Thrust move is only ever done by units. So doing by a model is breaking the Thrust Move rule. So quoting a rule that says follow rules as a reason to break those rules is an odd stance. Once again I must ask are you aware that following and breaking rules are not the same thing? As you repeatedly claim they are.
A Jet-Pack Unit can elect to make a Thrust move. However, any character in the Unit would have to (forced to) "follow the movement rules for models of their type".
As such, the "entire Unit" is making a Thrust move, but the Character will not be able to do so. The specification "remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in" still applies though...
The thrust move rule as you are making a thrust move withoyt being a Jetpack Unit
Correction: The Character is making a thrust move, as is allowed by his Unit Type.
The Unit has never made a thrust move, the character alone is using the rule:
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
Thrust move is only ever done by units. So doing by a model is breaking the Thrust Move rule. So quoting a rule that says follow rules as a reason to break those rules is an odd stance. Once again I must ask are you aware that following and breaking rules are not the same thing? As you repeatedly claim they are.
When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.
Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.
Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?
When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.
Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.
Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?
Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.
When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.
Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.
Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?
Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?
A Jet-Pack Unit can elect to make a Thrust move. However, any character in the Unit would have to (forced to) "follow the movement rules for models of their type".
Incorrect a unit that contains non-jetpack models is not a jetpack unit. So the IC joining prevents the unit from making a thrust move wait is no longer a jetpack unit.
When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception.
An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.
Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.
Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?
Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?
It is true. Why would they say follow rules if they meant break them? Why do you think following and breaking rules are the same thing? They aren't.
When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception. An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.
Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.
Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?
Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.
EW breaks ID? A rule is only broken if no permission supersedes it (usually specific permission).
When firing a S10 weapon at a Marine with Ever-living, you do not break any Rules. You follow all of the Rules that are applicable and reach an end-situation which is valid.
Same here. In combination, the Rules for characters permit you to follow your Unit Type move, while "the whole Unit" follows its own Unit Type move. No rules are broken, all models have permission to do what they have done when you finish your move(s)
In addition, i disagree with the RaW saying "you may break your unit type rules". The character "follow the movement rules for models of their type". He is not a Jet-Pack (or simple "infantry") Unit. He is not breaking the Unit Type rule as he is not of that Unit type....
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?
It is true. Why would they say follow rules if they meant break them? Why do you think following and breaking rules are the same thing? They aren't.
I'm sorry this is tautologous nonsense and isn't really helping. Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. So that means Character models that are infnatry follow the infantry rules and models that are jump pack infantry follow the rules for jump pack infantry. I don't know why you think I'm breaking any rules here.
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?
It is true. Why would they say follow rules if they meant break them? Why do you think following and breaking rules are the same thing? They aren't.
I'm sorry this is tautologous nonsense and isn't really helping. Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. So that means Character models that are infnatry follow the infantry rules and models that are jump pack infantry follow the rules for jump pack infantry. I don't know why you think I'm breaking any rules here.
Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?
1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.
A Jet-Pack Unit can elect to make a Thrust move. However, any character in the Unit would have to (forced to) "follow the movement rules for models of their type".
Incorrect a unit that contains non-jetpack models is not a jetpack unit. So the IC joining prevents the unit from making a thrust move wait is no longer a jetpack unit.
How is this so? The IC"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". If he joins a Type:JetPack Infantry Unit, why does the Unit type change? Surely it is a "rules purposes" is it not?
When the RaW says that a certain model "follows X rules", that is an exception. An exception does not break a Rule, it supersedes it.
Thrust move is only ever done by units. Characters have permission (exception) to move using different rules. The model can move with those rules, in addition to the Unit's "normal move". None are broken.
Or does Eternal Warrior mean you are breaking the Instant Death Rule?
Yes EW breaks the ID rule and has specific permission to do so. The rule you quoted gives no such permission in fact it says the opposite. It does not say you may break your unit type rules instead it reiterates you must follow them. Once again you seem to think breaking and following rules are the same thing. They aren't.
"Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
Stop trying to explain away that rule. It's pretty clear. What's the point in saying it if it's not true?
It is true. Why would they say follow rules if they meant break them? Why do you think following and breaking rules are the same thing? They aren't.
Just re-iterating here, but you only break a rule if you have no other permission that supersedes it.
If you fire a Barrage, Blast weapon indirectly, you do not break the rule for line of sight, because you have specific permission to "break" the rule:
All Barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast weapons, as indicated by their profile, with the following exceptions:
Same for the Characters:
he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FlingitNow wrote: Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?
1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type). 2) You are in the assault phase. 3) You have not charged that turn. 4) You are not locked in combat.
1) an IC joined a Jet Pack Unit. Is the Unit no longer a Jet Pack Unit? Remember: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"
PS: If we are talking about Braodsides with attached Drones, that Unit is not a Jet Pack Unit "from the start"... This obviously applies to Units that are *only* Jet Pack Units, later joined by ICs, or an IC making use of the Jet Pack movement rules (due to his own permission)
Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.
Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).
Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?
Example questions...
1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?
I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.
HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.
How is this so? The IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". If he joins a Type:JetPack Infantry Unit, why does the Unit type change? Surely it is a "rules purposes" is it not?
Are you claiming that an IC joining a unit can not change the properties of that unit? Also remember he is part of the unit, he does not gain the model properties of the other models in the unit, and unit type is a model property.
1) an IC joined a Jet Pack Unit. Is the Unit no longer a Jet Pack Unit? Remember: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"
Of course not why would it be? Also you seem off on a tangent that was discussing a Jetpack IC attached to a non-Jetpack unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall wrote: Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.
Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).
Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?
Example questions...
1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?
I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.
HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.
Only the first is Infantry the rest are mixed units.
How is this so? The IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". If he joins a Type:JetPack Infantry Unit, why does the Unit type change? Surely it is a "rules purposes" is it not?
Are you claiming that an IC joining a unit can not change the properties of that unit? Also remember he is part of the unit, he does not gain the model properties of the other models in the unit, and unit type is a model property.
1) an IC joined a Jet Pack Unit. Is the Unit no longer a Jet Pack Unit? Remember: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"
Of course not why would it be? Also you seem off on a tangent that was discussing a Jetpack IC attached to a non-Jetpack unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall wrote: Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.
Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).
Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?
Example questions...
1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?
I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.
HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.
Only the first is Infantry the rest are mixed units.
Do you have an actual rules citation to back that statement up? Do the rules actual talk about, say, Infantry units versus mixed units?
Kriswall wrote: Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.
Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).
Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?
Example questions...
1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?
I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.
HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.
Thing is, the BrB names some Units by type:
Jump units are equipped with (...) Jump units therefore share(...) the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. (...) follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Jet Pack Units Jet packs are designed(...). As with Jump units, ‘Jet Pack’ is not a classification in and of itself.
etc
One would assume that such Units are Units composed only of models of those types, but as you point out, this might not always be the case....
So either you take it at complete face value, where such "Units" do not exists: There is not such thing as a "Jump Unit", but only Units composed of "Jump unit models".
This means that Jet Pack "Units" do not exist, and the Thrust moves are completely redundant.
Or you go by the second observation of the RaW: all models from said Units must be of the Type that corresponds in order for the definition of "Jump Unit" to exist. Most Units with these types (damn you Tau) tend to be relatively "all or nothing". And the Term "Jump Unit" can work.
So for your examples, we have:
1. Infantry
2. Infantry
3. Infantry (IC "all rules purposes" does not change a Unit type)
In addition, any character can "have a different Unit type", with respects to movement. (This is a very similar case to the "treat as")
It could be the easiest way to put this, that i read the "follows these Rules" RaW as "Treat characters as Unit Type X, for the purposes of movement".
Kriswall wrote: Adding this for discussion, as I feel it needs to be adressed before we can determine if a mixed unit is a Jet Pack unit.
Do units have a unit type, or do models have a unit type? The Unit Type section of the rules cover what unit type a model has, but makes no mention of what unit type a unit has (unless I'm missing something).
Are there any rules at all for determining whether or not a unit actually has a unit type, and if so, what that type would be? ...what that type would be in the presence of a mixed unit?
Example questions...
1. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry)?
2. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun Drones (Jet Pack Infantry)? All 8 models are purchased from the same Fire Warrior unit entry.
3. What unit type is a unit composed of 6 Fire Warriors (Infantry) and 2 Gun drones (Jet Pack Infantry) who have been joined by O'Vesa (Jet Pack Monstrous Creature)?
I'm guessing people are going to say Infantry to all three, but will have no rules citations as back up.
HIWPI... simply change the Thrust Move to say "A Jet Pack model..." instead of "A Jet Pack unit...". Clears up almost everything.
Thing is, the BrB names some Units by type:
Jump units are equipped with (...) Jump units therefore share(...) the Jump unit rules, and those of their base type. (...) follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry.
Jet Pack Units Jet packs are designed(...). As with Jump units, ‘Jet Pack’ is not a classification in and of itself.
etc
One would assume that such Units are Units composed only of models of those types, but as you point out, this might not always be the case....
So either you take it at complete face value, where such "Units" do not exists: There is not such thing as a "Jump Unit", but only Units composed of "Jump unit models".
This means that Jet Pack "Units" do not exist, and the Thrust moves are completely redundant.
Or you go by the second observation of the RaW: all models from said Units must be of the Type that corresponds in order for the definition of "Jump Unit" to exist. Most Units with these types (damn you Tau) tend to be relatively "all or nothing". And the Term "Jump Unit" can work.
So for your examples, we have:
1. Infantry
2. Infantry
3. Infantry (IC "all rules purposes" does not change a Unit type)
In addition, any character can "have a different Unit type", with respects to movement. (This is a very similar case to the "treat as")
It could be the easiest way to put this, that i read the "follows these Rules" RaW as "Treat characters as Unit Type X, for the purposes of movement".
I agree that we have to assume these units exist. I just don't think they're defined. I also don't think mixed units are defined?
Why is #2 an Infantry unit and not a Jet Pack unit? Fire Warriors and Drones both come from the core army unit entry. What about a Kroot Squad with Kroot Hounds? Infantry and Beast all in one squad. Is it an Infantry unit or a Beast unit? Or both? I can't find any rules on how to determine the unit type of a mixed model unit.
How is this so? The IC "counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes". If he joins a Type:JetPack Infantry Unit, why does the Unit type change? Surely it is a "rules purposes" is it not?
Are you claiming that an IC joining a unit can not change the properties of that unit? Also remember he is part of the unit, he does not gain the model properties of the other models in the unit, and unit type is a model property.
So when a Rule check the Unit Type of said Unit, this is not a "rules purpose"?
"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" is quite all-encompassing.
If the Infantry Unit was an Infantry Unit, joining an IC does not change the Unit type, because it is certainly a "rules purposes"
1) an IC joined a Jet Pack Unit. Is the Unit no longer a Jet Pack Unit? Remember: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"
Of course not why would it be? Also you seem off on a tangent that was discussing a Jetpack IC attached to a non-Jetpack unit.
See above and "for all rules purposes". Unit Types is a rule purpose.
As for the Jet-Pack IC joining a non-Jetpack Unit, he uses movement Rules for his own Unit Type. I might point out that this is the only exception to the "for all rules purposes" rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kriswall wrote: I agree that we have to assume these units exist. I just don't think they're defined. I also don't think mixed units are defined?
Why is #2 an Infantry unit and not a Jet Pack unit? Fire Warriors and Drones both come from the core army unit entry. What about a Kroot Squad with Kroot Hounds? Infantry and Beast all in one squad. Is it an Infantry unit or a Beast unit? Or both? I can't find any rules on how to determine the unit type of a mixed model unit.
I definitely agree with the uncertainty.
Is there no clarification in the Codex?
"Kroot Unit
Type: Infantry"
Or similar?
(IIRC it says "Infantry Unit + Hounds are beasts"... which does not help...)
As for the Drones, the choice is from the RaW:
Unlike most other unit type categories, ‘Jump’ is not a classification in and of itself. Instead, you’ll find it occurs before another category – commonly Infantry
And the rest of that paragraph, which indicates that they "follow the rules for Jump units and Infantry."
As such, you are trying to define a Unit that is:
100% Infantry
33% "Jump"
By RaW it is an Infantry Unit, and i would love to hear support from a "mixed Unit".
While looking for such, I also happened upon this:
"In addition to their unit type, some models might also be noted as being characters." It says "We’re not going to worry about characters here", but it is noted as an addition, possibly intending "added Rules" to the Types (as per the current subject of the thread)
This all brings it back full circle to the Psyker issue, If you are treating a joined psyker as its own UNIT so that it can still cast powers, you should do the same for a jet pack IC
extremefreak17 wrote: This all brings it back full circle to the Psyker issue, If you are treating a joined psyker as its own UNIT so that it can still cast powers, you should do the same for a jet pack IC
This is a HIWPI argument. Just because you make a tweak to get one rule to work the way you want doesn't mean you automatically make the same tweak to get an entirely different rule with entirely different issues to work.
Do you have an actual rules citation to back that statement up? Do the rules actual talk about, say, Infantry units versus mixed units?
They are not defined in rules so we fall back to English. A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit. A unit consisting of a mixture of units types would be a mixed unit.
So when a Rule check the Unit Type of said Unit, this is not a "rules purpose"?
"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" is quite all-encompassing.
If the Infantry Unit was an Infantry Unit, joining an IC does not change the Unit type, because it is certainly a "rules purposes"
Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?
Do you have an actual rules citation to back that statement up? Do the rules actual talk about, say, Infantry units versus mixed units?
They are not defined in rules so we fall back to English. A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit. A unit consisting of a mixture of units types would be a mixed unit.
So when a Rule check the Unit Type of said Unit, this is not a "rules purpose"?
"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" is quite all-encompassing.
If the Infantry Unit was an Infantry Unit, joining an IC does not change the Unit type, because it is certainly a "rules purposes"
Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?
You realize that you're contradicting yourself, right?
"A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit." "Unit don't have unit types, models do."
extremefreak17 wrote: This all brings it back full circle to the Psyker issue, If you are treating a joined psyker as its own UNIT so that it can still cast powers, you should do the same for a jet pack IC
This is a HIWPI argument. Just because you make a tweak to get one rule to work the way you want doesn't mean you automatically make the same tweak to get an entirely different rule with entirely different issues to work.
Actually, yes it does. You can't have it both ways. Either you accept that JSJ units keep their jump ability when in a non-JSJ unit, or you accept that psykers lose their abilities in non-psyker units.
Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?
1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.
Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move. In fact, as have specific permisison to do so - and I have already quoted the rules.
Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?
1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.
Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move. In fact, as have specific permisison to do so - and I have already quoted the rules.
So you believe any unit in the fame can make a thrust move in any phase regardless of being locked in CC or having charged? That is now your stance?
Do you have an actual rules citation to back that statement up? Do the rules actual talk about, say, Infantry units versus mixed units?
They are not defined in rules so we fall back to English. A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit. A unit consisting of a mixture of units types would be a mixed unit.
So when a Rule check the Unit Type of said Unit, this is not a "rules purpose"?
"counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" is quite all-encompassing.
If the Infantry Unit was an Infantry Unit, joining an IC does not change the Unit type, because it is certainly a "rules purposes"
Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?
You realize that you're contradicting yourself, right?
"A unit consisting entirely of Jetpack models would be a Jetpack unit." "Unit don't have unit types, models do."
Can't have it both ways.
Sorry what? Units don't have unit types, unless you have ANY rules stating that they do. Thus when the rules refer to a jetpack unit they can ONLY be referring to a unit made up of jetpack models. There is literally no other way to interpret that term.
I think the rules are hopelessly vague and poorly written.
1. Units are never defined as having a unit type in the rules. Only models have unit types.
2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.
3. Assuming we allow that a unit can have a unit type, we're never told what to do with mixed units with models having an assortment of unit types.
4. The IC rules throw a wrench into the works. If we agree that we have a "Jet Pack Unit" and then add an IC, we know that the IC is to be considered a part of that unit for all rules purposes. Does the unit remain a "Jet Pack Unit" if the IC is not a Jet Pack model? We don't know. We're never told.
5. Jet Pack Thrust Moves can only be activated by a "Jet Pack Unit" and never by an individual model. We don't even really know what a "Jet Pack Unit" is. We can guess, but that's all it is... a guess.
6. If we decide that a "Jet Pack Unit" is a unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type, then Jet Pack ICs can't Thrust unless they're in such a unit.
7. If we decide that Jet Pack models should be able to Thrust regardless of who else is in the unit, we've violated the requirement that only a "Jet Pack Unit" can perform a Thrust Move.
Some of you are stating that the character follows the rules for its unit type, but is also part of the unit for all rules purposes... It sounds a little like double speak.
I say this because if the IC is allowed to follow its own unit type rules, then how is it part of the unit for all rules purposes?
It seems to me like the IC joins the unit and has to follow the units rules for movement, because units can only move as fast as their slowest model can. In the case of a JSJDlord, can the unit of wraiths do a JSJ move? If not then the Dlord in my opinion cannot either.
Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?
1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.
Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move. In fact, as have specific permisison to do so - and I have already quoted the rules.
So you believe any unit in the fame can make a thrust move in any phase regardless of being locked in CC or having charged? That is now your stance?
No... those things are against the rules. I think you need to re-read the rulebook!
Right so the following restrictions exist on the Thrust Move are you contenting you can ignore all of them or just some. How are you determining which?
1) You are a Jetpack UNIT (not a model with the jetpack unit type).
2) You are in the assault phase.
3) You have not charged that turn.
4) You are not locked in combat.
Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move. In fact, as have specific permisison to do so - and I have already quoted the rules.
So you believe any unit in the fame can make a thrust move in any phase regardless of being locked in CC or having charged? That is now your stance?
No... those things are against the rules. I think you need to re-read the rulebook!
You were the one saying there were no restrictions on when you can thrust move. So which is it?
No... those things are against the rules. I think you need to re-read the rulebook!
You were the one saying there were no restrictions on when you can thrust move. So which is it?
I've said nothing of the sort. I have quoted rules, however, rules which explicitly state that IC's follow their own model type's movement rules. Don't try to build such a flimsy argument in order to contradict the rules!
Kriswall wrote: I think the rules are hopelessly vague and poorly written.
1. Units are never defined as having a unit type in the rules. Only models have unit types.
2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.
3. Assuming we allow that a unit can have a unit type, we're never told what to do with mixed units with models having an assortment of unit types.
4. The IC rules throw a wrench into the works. If we agree that we have a "Jet Pack Unit" and then add an IC, we know that the IC is to be considered a part of that unit for all rules purposes. Does the unit remain a "Jet Pack Unit" if the IC is not a Jet Pack model? We don't know. We're never told.
5. Jet Pack Thrust Moves can only be activated by a "Jet Pack Unit" and never by an individual model. We don't even really know what a "Jet Pack Unit" is. We can guess, but that's all it is... a guess.
6. If we decide that a "Jet Pack Unit" is a unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type, then Jet Pack ICs can't Thrust unless they're in such a unit.
7. If we decide that Jet Pack models should be able to Thrust regardless of who else is in the unit, we've violated the requirement that only a "Jet Pack Unit" can perform a Thrust Move.
These are the main issues I see here.
1) correct.
2) with no rules definition we fall to English. A jet pack unit must refer to a unit of jet pack models. Thus all the models must be jetpack.
3) We shouldn't then allow units to have unit types. However mixed units cause all sorts of issues across multiple rules most notably PE and the Psychic phase mess.
4) We are fine with an IC changing a unit of 10 models into a unit of 11 models so why does it cause a problem that an IC changes a jet pack unit to a mixed unit? Note these are not game defined terms just short hand English used to describe the unit types of the models in a unit.
5) As above there is only one way to interpret that phrase lacking an in game definition.
6) Correct and if we decide this we are following RaW.
No... those things are against the rules. I think you need to re-read the rulebook!
You were the one saying there were no restrictions on when you can thrust move. So which is it?
I've said nothing of the sort. I have quoted rules, however, rules which explicitly state that IC's follow their own model type's movement rules. Don't try to build such a flimsy argument in order to contradict the rules!
Nice cut of your own post to hide the lie there.
Ffyllotek wrote:Please don't make up rules. At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move.
So which is it? Were you lying then or are you lying now?
So which is it? Were you lying then or are you lying now?
I'm not really going to engage in that sort of conversation, sorry. I cut out a bit because multi-quoting is bad ettiquette. As is calling someone a liar. Thank you, good luck in your games.
So which is it? Were you lying then or are you lying now?
I'm not really going to engage in that sort of conversation, sorry. I cut out a bit because multi-quoting is bad ettiquette. As is calling someone a liar. Thank you, good luck in your games.
When you say:
"At no point are there any restrictions from making the JSJ move."
And then two posts later claim to have never said that what else is that? It is not poor ettiquette nor impolite to point that out. However saying something and then lying about that is impolite and does not help the discussion. So please answer the question. Were you lying when you said there were no restrictions on dong a JSJ or were you lying when you said you had said no such thing?
Kapitalist-Pig wrote: Some of you are stating that the character follows the rules for its unit type, but is also part of the unit for all rules purposes... It sounds a little like double speak.
I say this because if the IC is allowed to follow its own unit type rules, then how is it part of the unit for all rules purposes?
It seems to me like the IC joins the unit and has to follow the units rules for movement, because units can only move as fast as their slowest model can. In the case of a JSJDlord, can the unit of wraiths do a JSJ move? If not then the Dlord in my opinion cannot either.
Just my two cents.
It's not double speak because that's actually the only exception to that rule that exists: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." = For any and all rules he's part of the Unit BUT he also has Character rules. These include "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type"
Kriswall wrote: I think the rules are hopelessly vague and poorly written.
1. Units are never defined as having a unit type in the rules. Only models have unit types.
2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.
3. Assuming we allow that a unit can have a unit type, we're never told what to do with mixed units with models having an assortment of unit types.
4. The IC rules throw a wrench into the works. If we agree that we have a "Jet Pack Unit" and then add an IC, we know that the IC is to be considered a part of that unit for all rules purposes. Does the unit remain a "Jet Pack Unit" if the IC is not a Jet Pack model? We don't know. We're never told.
5. Jet Pack Thrust Moves can only be activated by a "Jet Pack Unit" and never by an individual model. We don't even really know what a "Jet Pack Unit" is. We can guess, but that's all it is... a guess.
6. If we decide that a "Jet Pack Unit" is a unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type, then Jet Pack ICs can't Thrust unless they're in such a unit.
7. If we decide that Jet Pack models should be able to Thrust regardless of who else is in the unit, we've violated the requirement that only a "Jet Pack Unit" can perform a Thrust Move.
These are the main issues I see here.
1) correct.
2) with no rules definition we fall to English. A jet pack unit must refer to a unit of jet pack models. Thus all the models must be jetpack.
3) We shouldn't then allow units to have unit types. However mixed units cause all sorts of issues across multiple rules most notably PE and the Psychic phase mess.
4) We are fine with an IC changing a unit of 10 models into a unit of 11 models so why does it cause a problem that an IC changes a jet pack unit to a mixed unit? Note these are not game defined terms just short hand English used to describe the unit types of the models in a unit.
5) As above there is only one way to interpret that phrase lacking an in game definition.
6) Correct and if we decide this we are following RaW.
7) True and if we do that we are breaking RaW.
1) Agreed.
2) Nice interpretation there, the same one i make but you suddenly call out when it ruins your argument:
FlingitNow wrote: Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?
3) Well i guess that's your choice... Clearly no RaW has anything about "mixed Units". Seems like everyone is guessing here, what happened to the "RaW argument"?
4) Because things like "Jump Unit" ARE referenced in the rulebook. They are an existing entity and they are Rules. They may not be defined, but they are a Rule. As such they are RaW. Is a Rule a Rule purpose? Hard to make it more simple a question....
5)Indeed, same assumption again: a "Jet Pack Unit" most probably refers to a Unit containing only Jet Pack models.
6) So the definition of the Unit type has changed for the purpose of the Thrust Move? So, for the purpose of a Rule, adding an IC has modified the Unit? I think some RaW might disagree with that assertion: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"
7) Correct, only Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type.
Talos - you can follow the rules for your type just fine. The rule for the unit type "JetPack (X) " is that the *unit* must elect to make a thrust move
So, to follow the rule, the unit must elect to do so. we know the IC is not a unit by themselves, so the unit entire must evoke the rule. Only the unit entire cannot do so, so the rule cannot be evoked.
The same can be said for the psychic units then. In both cases we have no indication that IC's loose or gain abilities. If you advocate for psychers still casting then you advocate for JSJIC's being allowed to do so.
Present what as fact? The rules that were clearly followed and factual, or the fact that the psyker rules are broken in more comprehensive ways than your simplistic equivalence?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Simply put. As soon as you make a judgement or assumption on what is being said you are stating an opinion. Without rule backup that's all it can be. Per the rules of the forum back it up with a rule or mark your posts HIWPI.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Simply put. As soon as you make a judgement or assumption on what is being said you are stating an opinion. Without rule backup that's all it can be. Per the rules of the forum back it up with a rule or mark your posts HIWPI.
The Psychic phase not really working is a known issue. If you participate in a rules forum, you likely know this. If you don't know the particulars, feel free to do a rudimentary search. I recommend searching for "psychic phase" and "broken" together.
Creating a house rule to correct what is perceived as one broken situation does not necessarily mean you will implement the same house rule to correct an entirely different situation. Claiming that you're required to be consistent in how house rules are applied is simply not true.
The IC in a Jet Pack Unit issue may cause some confusion as we bicker about what "Jet Pack Unit" means and how to resolve mixed unit types in one unit. What never happens, though, is a hard stop. The worst case is that a Jet Pack IC can't Thrust or that a non-Jet Pack IC gets a free Thrust. This might break what you or I think of as RaI, but never causes the game to come to a grinding halt. The Psychic phase rules can cause the game to come to a grinding halt. As mentioned above, if you want to know why or how, do a quick search. This thread is about Jet Pack issues and rehashing the Psychic phase situation isn't really relevant or particularly helpful.
I notice you did not in fact address the post where I put this forth. If you had looked at my history you would also know I do participate in this very forum heavily. Choosing not to even look at my post count shows a lack of interest in actually researching easily obtainable information, I recommend clicking on my name.
BTW the comparison I made was not in fact a house rule to house rule. It was a rule to look at in comparison to this situation. The rest of the rules may be poor and/or broken in the Psychic information portions but what I pointed to above was not.
Gravmyr wrote: I notice you did not in fact address the post where I put this forth. If you had looked at my history you would also know I do participate in this very forum heavily. Choosing not to even look at my post count shows a lack of interest in actually researching easily obtainable information, I recommend clicking on my name.
BTW the comparison I made was not in fact a house rule to house rule. It was a rule to look at in comparison to this situation. The rest of the rules may be poor and/or broken in the Psychic information portions but what I pointed to above was not.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, dude. You have 1,215 posts as of this writing. I'm not interested in doing extensive research into your posting habits to try to get a feel for your understanding of the Warhammer 40k 7th Edition Psychic phase. I have better things to do with my time.
Fact... the Psychic phase doesn't work as likely intended. Any decision we make to correct this is a house rule.
Fact... Jet Pack Unit is never defined anywhere in the rules. Any definition we apply to correct this is a house rule.
Comparing the two situations is therefore comparing a house rule to a house rule.
Saying that Psycker ICs can still use psychic powers is a house rule since the rules as written don't actually allow this when the IC is in a 'non psyker unit'. Saying that a Jet Pack IC can still make a Thrust move when he's in a 'non jet pack unit' would also be a house rule.
I'm inclined to say yes to the Psyker one, but no to the Jet Pack one. This is because I'm factoring what I believe is RaI into my decision. I believe GW intended for Psyker ICs to be able to use their powers. I'm also inclined to believe that GW intended for Jet Pack ICs to simple walk alongside their Infantry comrades when joined to such a unit. Hence, I say yes to ICs cast psychic powers, but no to ICs using thrust moves.
I Play It as the basis along with you being allowed the choice to move only some models of a unit in the movement phase to allow weapons firing at full BS or different speeds to allow multiple weapons to fire at full BS, for allowing the unit with a Jet unit to do so. If you do not what you are saying is that in this case the fact they did not spell it out entirely was intentional but in all other instances it is up for interpretation intentionally.
Gravmyr wrote: I Play It as the basis along with you being allowed the choice to move only some models of a unit in the movement phase to allow weapons firing at full BS or different speeds to allow multiple weapons to fire at full BS, for allowing the unit with a Jet unit to do so. If you do not what you are saying is that in this case the fact they did not spell it out entirely was intentional but in all other instances it is up for interpretation intentionally.
I have no idea what this means. Not being mean, but well constructed sentences go a long way towards making your point easier to sell.
2) Nice interpretation there, the same one i make but you suddenly call out when it ruins your argument:
FlingitNow wrote:
Units don't have unit types, models do. What if a rule said you needed to check the number of models in a unit? Would a 10 man tactical squad with an IC attached still be considered a unit of 10 models for rules purposes?
3) Well i guess that's your choice... Clearly no RaW has anything about "mixed Units". Seems like everyone is guessing here, what happened to the "RaW argument"?
4) Because things like "Jump Unit" ARE referenced in the rulebook. They are an existing entity and they are Rules. They may not be defined, but they are a Rule. As such they are RaW. Is a Rule a Rule purpose? Hard to make it more simple a question....
5)Indeed, same assumption again: a "Jet Pack Unit" most probably refers to a Unit containing only Jet Pack models.
6) So the definition of the Unit type has changed for the purpose of the Thrust Move? So, for the purpose of a Rule, adding an IC has modified the Unit?
I think some RaW might disagree with that assertion: "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"
7) Correct, only Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type.
2) My quote is entirely in line with my statement. Not sure what you mean there?
3) Mixed unit is a thing it is not a defined term, neither is Jet Pack unit. Unit types are model properties so a Jetpack unit must refer to a unit of models with the Jet Pack type and thus a mixed unit is a unit of mixed unit types. This is just how English works.
4) Yes jump units are referred to in the rules. Part of a unit does not mean you can not change that units properties. See the quote above you referenced for point 2.
5) Not assumption just how English works.
6) No again with the claim that a unit of 10 models with an IC attached is a unit of 10 models. It is not it is now a unit of 11 models. Just as a unit of jetpack models is no longer a unit of jetpack models when you add a non-jetpack model to it.
7) No everyone follows the rules for their unit type.
If a model has Unit Type: Jetpack then wouldn't that MODEL be a Jetpack Unit? Just because it has 'Unit' in the name, does it have to refer to the BRB definition of 'group of models is a unit' (I'm paraphrasing here)?
These are questions the BRB doesn't answer. But if you need a 'Jetpack Unit' to activate the jump move and a MODEL has the 'Unit Type: Jetpack' then it would be logical to assume that the MODEL meets the requirements for a jump move.
FlingitNow wrote: Models and units are not interchangeable terms. A jetpack unit is not a Jetpack Model,
Agreed. It's very weird that Models have a Unit Type and not a Model Type, but such is life.
Agreed much like the Allied Detachment a poorly chosen name often leads people to make false assumptions.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. GW needs to employ a quality copy editor. A good copy editor would never had allowed this to hit publication.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. GW needs to employ a quality copy editor. A good copy editor would never had allowed this to hit publication.
First they'd have to start caring about what they wrote.
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
Seems cut and dry to me.
It is as I've proven in this thread. However you will get the wrong answer if you ignore the actual rule in question like you have done...
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains in unit coherency (see below).
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Seems cut and dry to me.
It is as I've proven in this thread. However you will get the wrong answer if you ignore the actual rule in question like you have done...
Post the rule.
My rules provide direct answers to relevant questions.
Does the unit include models that move at different speeds? Yes it does.
Are any of the models characters? Yes, one is an IC which is also a character.
Does the IC follow the unit for all rule purposes? No, the rule is clear that he still follows the character rules which provide specific exception to movement.
So, yes, you follow these relevant rules. All of these rules provide specific allowances. The Destroyer Lord gets to jet pack move and thrust move while attached to a unit of beasts since character rules provide specific allowance to do so. The only restriction is that he has to maintain unit coherency as is clearly outlined in the above rules.
FlingitNow wrote: Check the full "Thrust Move" and when you can do it...
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to follow the movement rules of a model of its type. Thrust move is a move.
Models don't activate thrust moves ever. Units do. When the Destroyer Lord is joined to another unit, he is no longer a unit in and of himself, but instead counts as a part of the joined unit. You need to show evidence that the new unit he has joined has permission to perform a thrust move.
Remember that the thrust move is a rule associated with Jet Pack UNITS and has absolutely nothing to do with Characters.
FlingitNow wrote: Check the full "Thrust Move" and when you can do it...
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to follow the movement rules of a model of its type. Thrust move is a move.
Models don't activate thrust moves ever. Units do. When the Destroyer Lord is joined to another unit, he is no longer a unit in and of himself, but instead counts as a part of the joined unit. You need to show evidence that the new unit he has joined has permission to perform a thrust move.
Remember that the thrust move is a rule associated with Jet Pack UNITS and has absolutely nothing to do with Characters.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.
FlingitNow wrote: Check the full "Thrust Move" and when you can do it...
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to follow the movement rules of a model of its type. Thrust move is a move.
Models don't activate thrust moves ever. Units do. When the Destroyer Lord is joined to another unit, he is no longer a unit in and of himself, but instead counts as a part of the joined unit. You need to show evidence that the new unit he has joined has permission to perform a thrust move.
Remember that the thrust move is a rule associated with Jet Pack UNITS and has absolutely nothing to do with Characters.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.
The Thrust Move is no more a "movement rule" than declaring a charge is. Sure, they both incorporate an element of movement, but neither occurs during the Movement phase. Unless I misunderstand you. You know what, I have a good way of telling whether or not you're willing to stick to your theory...
Player turn 2...
1. A unit of Tau Crisis Suits deep strikes onto the table and lands without scatter. They land approximately 3 inches away from an enemy unit.
2. A Crisis Commander then moves within coherency of the Crisis Suits, joining them at the end of their Movement phase.
Can the Crisis Commander declare a charge against an enemy unit despite being in an overall unit that can't declare a charge due to having come in from Reserves? Per your own argument, Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. Declaring a charge is an form of movement since you're told to move the model. The Crisis Commander didn't come in from Reserves that turn. Surely, he can declare a charge somehow...
Clearly not. This is ludicrous. Declaring a charge is a unit level action and the overall unit came in from Reserves that turn. EXACTLY the same way that declaring a Thrust Move is a unit level action and a Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Wraiths isn't a Jet Pack Unit and therefore can't declare a Thrust Move.
You have demonstrated that Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. You have yet to demonstrate either the overall unit having permission to perform a thrust move (only jet pack units can do this) or the individual IC model have permission to perform a thrust move (again, only jet pack units can do this... not jet pack models). Try again?
Your confusion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Thrust Move. The thrust move is a movement rule that happens to occur in the assault phase.
Spoiler:
MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).
SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Jet Pack models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.
The rules specifically tell us to have characters follow the movements rules of their type. Skyborne and Thrust Move are movement rules for the Jet Pack type. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack type.
col_impact wrote: Your confusion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Thrust Move. The thrust move is a movement rule that happens to occur in the assault phase.
Spoiler:
MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).
SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Jet Pack models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.
The rules specifically tell us to have characters follow the movements rules of their type. Skyborne and Thrust Move are movement rules for the Jet Pack type. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack type.
Permission is clear. Clear is permission.
Try again?
So, to be clear, you don't care that the rules grant the Thrust Move permission to a UNIT and not a MODEL, but have decided to use a rule dealing with Characters and movement to arbitrarily grant said permission at a model level? I just want to be clear. Do you have any rules quotes that modify the Thrust Move permission from a unit level permission to a model level permission? If not, we're done here. We can talk about Characters and movement rules until the end of time. You have yet to demonstrate that an individual model, when part of a larger unit EVER has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. The Thrust Move simply isn't available to models. It's only available to units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another way of asking... if you think Characters can initiate Thrust Moves... give me a real world example. The rules don't support such a situation.
col_impact wrote: Your confusion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Thrust Move. The thrust move is a movement rule that happens to occur in the assault phase.
Spoiler:
MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).
SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Jet Pack models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.
The rules specifically tell us to have characters follow the movements rules of their type. Skyborne and Thrust Move are movement rules for the Jet Pack type. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack type.
Permission is clear. Clear is permission.
Try again?
So, to be clear, you don't care that the rules grant the Thrust Move permission to a UNIT and not a MODEL, but have decided to use a rule dealing with Characters and movement to arbitrarily grant said permission at a model level? I just want to be clear. Do you have any rules quotes that modify the Thrust Move permission from a unit level permission to a model level permission? If not, we're done here. We can talk about Characters and movement rules until the end of time. You have yet to demonstrate that an individual model, when part of a larger unit EVER has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. The Thrust Move simply isn't available to models. It's only available to units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another way of asking... if you think Characters can initiate Thrust Moves... give me a real world example. The rules don't support such a situation.
The character rules provide specific allowance for a character to move according to its type.
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This rule is a specific allowance. And it's pretty darn clear. And it's RAW.
col_impact wrote: Your confusion stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the Thrust Move. The thrust move is a movement rule that happens to occur in the assault phase.
Spoiler:
MOVEMENT
Jet Pack units can move as normal models of their type or use their jet packs (see below).
SKYBORNE
When using its jet pack (whether moving, or making a Thrust move, as we’ll discuss in a moment) a model can move over all other models and terrain freely. However, if the model begins or ends its move in difficult terrain, it must take a Dangerous Terrain test. Jet Pack models cannot end their move on top of other models and can only end their move on top of impassable terrain if it is actually possible to place the models on top of it. If they do this, however, they treat the impassable terrain as dangerous terrain.
THRUST MOVE
A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase, even if they have shot or Run in the preceding Shooting phase or arrived by Deep Strike that turn. When Jet Pack units move in the Assault phase and do not charge, they move just as they would when using their jet packs in the Movement phase.
The rules specifically tell us to have characters follow the movements rules of their type. Skyborne and Thrust Move are movement rules for the Jet Pack type. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack type.
Permission is clear. Clear is permission.
Try again?
So, to be clear, you don't care that the rules grant the Thrust Move permission to a UNIT and not a MODEL, but have decided to use a rule dealing with Characters and movement to arbitrarily grant said permission at a model level? I just want to be clear. Do you have any rules quotes that modify the Thrust Move permission from a unit level permission to a model level permission? If not, we're done here. We can talk about Characters and movement rules until the end of time. You have yet to demonstrate that an individual model, when part of a larger unit EVER has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. The Thrust Move simply isn't available to models. It's only available to units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another way of asking... if you think Characters can initiate Thrust Moves... give me a real world example. The rules don't support such a situation.
The character rules provide specific allowance for a character to move according to its type.
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This rule is a specific allowance. And it's pretty darn clear.
I agree that the rule is pretty darn clear. Now, please quote the rule that gives a Character MODEL permission to perform a Thrust Move. It has to be somewhere OTHER than the Jet Pack section. The Jet Pack section only gives Jet Pack UNITS permission to perform a Thrust Move.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If the rule said "Model with the Jet Pack unit type may perform a Thrust Move..." you'd have a slam dunk. The rules don't say that. This isn't a model permission and therefore not something a Character is ever allowed to do on his own.
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character] as far as applying the movement rules of Jet Pack to the character. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rules for models of their type. The character rules allow specific ways for a unit to be in certain circumstances more specifically handled as character + unit.
A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.
A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.
"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.
I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.
A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.
"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.
I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.
There should be no 2 camps. The rules are very clear here. The rules are very clear that characters follow the movement rules for their type. So an overlord attached to some destroyers is going to mess up the movement of the destroyers because of the injunction to always maintain unit coherency. Very clear.
Characters follow the rules for the unit, except they also are required to follow the character rules. The character rules tell them to follow the movement rules for the models of their type. So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.
A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.
"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.
I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.
Characters follow the rules for the unit, except they also are required to follow the character rules. The character rules tell them to follow the movement rules for the models of their type. So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
I hear what you're saying. Characters follow the rules for MODELS of their type. Please cite the specific rules quote that allows a Jet Pack MODEL to perform a Thrust Move.
And...
"So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency."
...this is your interpretation and isn't actually backed up in any way, shape or form by the rules as written. Nowhere in the RaW does it tell us to treat Characters as a unit all to themselves for movement purposes. If you disagree, page and paragraph giving explicit permission to treat the Character as a unit when he's already part of another unit.
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.
A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.
"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.
I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.
Characters follow the rules for the unit, except they also are required to follow the character rules. The character rules tell them to follow the movement rules for the models of their type. So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
I hear what you're saying. Characters follow the rules for MODELS of their type. Please cite the specific rules quote that allows a Jet Pack MODEL to perform a Thrust Move.
And...
"So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency."
...this is your interpretation and isn't actually backed up in any way, shape or form by the rules as written. Nowhere in the RaW does it tell us to treat Characters as a unit all to themselves for movement purposes. If you disagree, page and paragraph giving explicit permission to treat the Character as a unit when he's already part of another unit.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
It cannot be any clearer than this rule which specifically tells you to treat a character with regards to moving as separate from the unit according to its type. I have provided a clear chain of permission and a clear reading of the rules which makes it clear that a vanilla overlord will never acquire jet pack movement no matter which camp of interpretation of 'unit' you are on. The rules specifically lay out how to handle Independent Characters with different modes of movement than the unit they are in. The only restriction is that they need to maintain unit coherency. Also, since ICs can be units all their own, you need to show where in the case of movement that unit status is being taken away since the character rules would retain their independent movement rules which tell them to follow the movement rules for their type and just that you have to maintain unit coherency (or you leave the unit - imagine that!).
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
This rule effectively changes Jet Pack unit to Jet Pack [character]. The character rule specifically allows characters to follow the movement rule for models of their type.
A question for you: A Necron Overlord attaches itself to a Jet Pack unit. Does it gain the ability to do a Thrust Move which you are granting at the unit level? The vanilla Overlord is part of a Jet Pack unit and would appear by your logic to have acquired a jet pack for free. If the vanilla Necron Overlord cannot do a Thrust Move please show why it cannot.
"Jet Pack Unit" is undefined in the rules. However, I believe that most people consider a Jet Pack Unit to be a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. If you subscribe to that interpretation, then no, the vanilla Overlord would not be able to participate in a Thrust Move since his unit wouldn't be a Jet Pack Unit and therefore wouldn't be able to perform one. If you believe that a vanilla Overlord joined to, say, a unit of Destroyers results in a Jet Pack Unit, then yes, he would be able to participate in the Thrust Move when the Jet Pack Unit he's a part of (for all rule purposes) performs one.
I'm in the camp that believes a Jet Pack Unit is a Unit composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack unit type. That seems to me like the most likely interpretation. I think most people are in this camp, based on the threads I see around these parts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also... "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc." How exactly are you using this to change the word Unit to Model? That seems like an arbitrary edit. "Models of their type", i.e. Jet Pack Models don't ever have permission to perform a Thrust Move, so why would Jet Pack Characters? Only UNITS have this permission.
Characters follow the rules for the unit, except they also are required to follow the character rules. The character rules tell them to follow the movement rules for the models of their type. So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
I hear what you're saying. Characters follow the rules for MODELS of their type. Please cite the specific rules quote that allows a Jet Pack MODEL to perform a Thrust Move.
And...
"So, for all intents and purposes, with regards to movement [a rule specifically grants this], characters act as a unit all to themselves with the ability to move freely provided they stay within unit coherency."
...this is your interpretation and isn't actually backed up in any way, shape or form by the rules as written. Nowhere in the RaW does it tell us to treat Characters as a unit all to themselves for movement purposes. If you disagree, page and paragraph giving explicit permission to treat the Character as a unit when he's already part of another unit.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
It cannot be any clearer than this rule which specifically tells you to treat a character with regards to moving as separate from the unit according to its type. I have provided a clear chain of permission and a clear reading of the rules which makes it clear that a vanilla overlord will never acquire jet pack movement no matter which camp of interpretation of 'unit' you are on. The rules specifically lay out how to handle Independent Characters with different modes of movement than the unit they are in. The only restriction is that they need to maintain unit coherency. Also, since ICs can be units all their own, you need to show where in the case of movement that unit status is being taken away since the character rules would retain their independent movement rules which tell them to follow the movement rules for their type and just that you have to maintain unit coherency (or you leave the unit - imagine that!).
I have rules charting a clear resolution.
You have rules telling me that a Jet Pack CHARACTER follows the movement rules assigned to Jet Pack MODELS. You have yet to demonstrate either...
1. that a Jet Pack Character in a unit composed of other non-Jet Pack Models should be considered a Jet Pack Unit himself despite being part of another larger unit.
2. that Jet Pack Models can INITIATE a Thrust Move... an action granted explicitly to UNITS only per the core rules.
I 100% grant that Characters follow the rules for Models of their type. I 100% reject that this automatically means they ALSO gain all of the abilities associated with UNITS of the same type.
You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.
When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.
Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.
Eihnlazer wrote: You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.
When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.
Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.
And to be 100% crystal clear, because I think this is the part that a lot of people are getting wrong...
When a Character or IC with the Jet Pack unit type is alone in a Unit by himself, he still doesn't have permission to initiate a Thrust Move. Instead, the UNIT he's in (that happens to contain only one model) has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. As soon as the "Jet Pack Unit" initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.
Eihnlazer wrote: You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.
When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.
Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.
And to be 100% crystal clear, because I think this is the part that a lot of people are getting wrong...
When a Character or IC with the Jet Pack unit type is alone in a Unit by himself, he still doesn't have permission to initiate a Thrust Move. Instead, the UNIT he's in (that happens to contain only one model) has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. As soon as the "Jet Pack Unit" initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.
You are failing to apply this rule. What makes you think you can skip this rule? Skipping rules obviously violates any sense of RAW.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
That rule tells us unequivocally to follow the movement rules for jet pack type for the Destroyer Lord. Are you doing that in your reading of the rules? No. The rules specifically tells us to follow the movement rules for jet pack type which includes Skyborne and Thrust move.
Are you having trouble reconciling character in a unit? These rules combined makes it clear that for movement purposes you treat a unit with different model types as a mixed unit. The characters moves according to their types and the other models move according to their type.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
In other words, with regards to character rules, the Independent Character does not count as part of the unit for all rules purposes. The character rules contain a special exemption for movement rules. The Destroyer Lord is told specifically to follow the movement rules for its [unit] type. Specific overwrites general rules.
You are failing to apply this rule. You are not allowed to skip rules. This rules tells you to follow the movement rules for Jet Pack type in the case of the Destroyer Lord. Show how you apply this rule.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
Eihnlazer wrote: You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.
When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.
Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.
And to be 100% crystal clear, because I think this is the part that a lot of people are getting wrong...
When a Character or IC with the Jet Pack unit type is alone in a Unit by himself, he still doesn't have permission to initiate a Thrust Move. Instead, the UNIT he's in (that happens to contain only one model) has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. As soon as the "Jet Pack Unit" initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.
You are failing to apply this rule. What makes you think you can skip this rule? Skipping rules obviously violates any sense of RAW.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
That rule tells us unequivocally to follow the movement rules for jet pack type for the Destroyer Lord. Are you doing that in your reading of the rules? No. The rules specifically tells us to follow the movement rules for jet pack type which includes Skyborne and Thrust move.
Are you having trouble reconciling character in a unit? These rules combined makes it clear that for movement purposes you treat a unit with different model types as a mixed unit. The characters moves according to their types and the other models move according to their type.
Spoiler:
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
In other words, with regards to character rules, the Independent Character does not count as part of the unit for all rules purposes. The character rules contain a special exemption for movement rules. The Destroyer Lord is told specifically to follow the movement rules for its [unit] type. Specific overwrites general rules.
You are failing to apply this rule. You are not allowed to skip rules. This rules tells you to follow the movement rules for Jet Pack type in the case of the Destroyer Lord. Show how you apply this rule.
Spoiler:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
Show permission for anything other than a Jet Pack UNIT to activate a Thrust Move.
You can keep posting over and over and over that Character follow the movement rules for models of their type. I agree with you on this point. You can stop posting the same thing ad nauseum.
Jet Pack MODELs don't have permission to activate a Thrust Move. Jet Pack Infantry Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type. Awesome! Agreed. Jet Pack Infantry non-Characters DON'T HAVE PERMISSION to activate a Thrust Move. Therefore, Jet Pack Infantry Characters ALSO don't have permission to do so.
ONLY FULL UNITS have permission to activate a Thrust Move. Telling me that Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type is irrelevant and a red herring because models of their type don't have this ability. RaW, only Jet Pack UNITS do.
So, again, please stop posting the same old argument. You're obviously missing the point that models NEVER gain the Thrust Move ability. Only Jet Pack UNITS do. It is a UNIT level action, not a model level one.
I feel like I'm talking to myself, because I know you won't listen to or understand anything I say.
You need to show a rules citation either...
1. showing that the Thrust Move may be made by a model and not a unit. The rules use the word unit.
2. an IC joined to a unit is not, in fact, a part of the unit for all rules purposes, but instead we are explicitly and unambiguously told to treat the IC as an entirely separate unit for the purposes of movement. I know ICs follow their own movement rules, but the Thrust Move requires a unit action and not a model action. For the IC to be able to do a Thrust Move, he would have to explicitly be considered a separate unit.
Either one. If you're correct, this should be easy.
In the meantime, I'll wait for the copy paste of your existing argument that isn't working so far.
When it joins a unit, an Independent Character counts as part of a unit for all intents and purposes except for the character rules which it must follow and also the Independent Character rules which allow it to do very unique things like detach from a unit or attach to a different unit, etc. It loses its unit in a unit status except for those areas governed by character and IC rules (where it retains its ability to act as a separate unit in a unit) as the rule makes clear.
The character rules require that for movement purposes we follow the model type.
With regards to movement the Independent Character retains its status as a unit in a unit since those movement exceptions fall under character rules which are not ruled by the 'for all intents and purposes' clause as you would have it.
Otherwise please show a rule that blanket disallows an Independent Character from acting as a separable and differential unit in a unit with regards to movement. The clause you are hedging on ('for all intents and purposes') does not apply to the character rules or the Independent Character rules. For those rules the IC is empowered to act as a unit within a unit. How else, for example, would an IC be able to leave its parent unit if it could not act as a separable and differential unit within a unit.
I have shown clear permission that the rules support the IC moving according to its type as a unit in a unit. This is because the 'all intents and purposes' clause does not apply to the character rules or the Independent Character rules. For those rules, the IC acts as a separable and differential unit in a unit.
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.
Did you even bother reading your own quotes? Following rules is not breaking them. He is given permission to follow the rules for his unit type (which is essentially a redundant reminder) following the rules for jet packs means you need to be in a jet pack UNIT to use the thrust move.
So please prove that following rules means breaking rules.
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.
Did you even bother reading your own quotes? Following rules is not breaking them. He is given permission to follow the rules for his unit type (which is essentially a redundant reminder) following the rules for jet packs means you need to be in a jet pack UNIT to use the thrust move.
So please prove that following rules means breaking rules.
I am the one posting rules that show a clear chain of permission and by doing such I claim RAW permission. Feel free to post rules that show an alternate chain of resolution. Otherwise, step aside.
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.
Did you even bother reading your own quotes? Following rules is not breaking them. He is given permission to follow the rules for his unit type (which is essentially a redundant reminder) following the rules for jet packs means you need to be in a jet pack UNIT to use the thrust move.
So please prove that following rules means breaking rules.
I am the one posting rules that show a clear chain of permission and by doing such I claim RAW permission. Feel free to post rules that show an alternate chain of resolution. Otherwise, step aside.
You haven't though. You've shown you have to follow Jet Pack rules and then claim that as a reason to break them...
nosferatu1001 wrote: Talos - you can follow the rules for your type just fine. The rule for the unit type "JetPack (X) " is that the *unit* must elect to make a thrust move
So, to follow the rule, the unit must elect to do so. we know the IC is not a unit by themselves, so the unit entire must evoke the rule. Only the unit entire cannot do so, so the rule cannot be evoked.
All rules followed. None broken
And by using the permission of Characters to move according to their own Unit Type, the character can make a Thrust move.
I have not broken the *Unit* restriction, as the character has permission alone.
It is as simple as: If 1 model only has a permission, the restrictions (of the permission - having to be a JetPack *Unit*) apply to the 1 model only. The character is a Jet-Pack model. If on his own, he may Thrust. So when you apply the movement rules to him alone, they "work in a vacuum".
Eihnlazer wrote: You keep repeating the same thing, and yet you arent actually proving anything.
When the character is a unit in and of himself, he can thrust. Joined to any other type of unit, he is no longer a jet pack unit and thus cannot thrust move.
Thats the clear cut and dry. There is no other way to interpret this.
And to be 100% crystal clear, because I think this is the part that a lot of people are getting wrong...
When a Character or IC with the Jet Pack unit type is alone in a Unit by himself, he still doesn't have permission to initiate a Thrust Move. Instead, the UNIT he's in (that happens to contain only one model) has permission to initiate a Thrust Move. As soon as the "Jet Pack Unit" initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.
The IC may no longer be a Unit of 1 (and Type of his own). But he has a clear permission to move "independently". The same "independence" is what allows him to qualify for a thrust move.
IE "Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type". When the Character initiates the Thrust Move, all models in said unit (Which, currently, is "only the character" as he is not part of the Unit for that Rule purpose) are able to do the whole move 2D6" move thing.
As a character, the Destroyer Lord is given specific allowance to move as Jet Pack Type in a unit of mixed models. The rules are clear and I have traced permission.
Did you even bother reading your own quotes? Following rules is not breaking them. He is given permission to follow the rules for his unit type (which is essentially a redundant reminder) following the rules for jet packs means you need to be in a jet pack UNIT to use the thrust move.
So please prove that following rules means breaking rules.
I am the one posting rules that show a clear chain of permission and by doing such I claim RAW permission. Feel free to post rules that show an alternate chain of resolution. Otherwise, step aside.
You haven't though. You've shown you have to follow Jet Pack rules and then claim that as a reason to break them...
Suprisingly, that's how the Rules work: Permission given to override a restriction. Let's get back to how Ever-living means you actually break Rules. I guess most of your games "break" rules then?
Suprisingly, that's how the Rules work: Permission given to override a restriction. Let's get back to how Ever-living means you actually break Rules. I guess most of your games "break" rules then?
Telling you to follow a rule is not making an exception to that rule. It is telling you to follow it not break it. Stop trying to claim following a rule means breaking it.
Black - no. The IC MODEL has permission as a model to move according to its unit type
The thrust move requires the IC model to evoke a rule available to units
The IC is not a unit. This is clear. The IC has permission to move, yes, but it still has no permission to act as a unit. It has permission as a model.
Model permission is insufficient. This is a demonstrated fact.
col_impact wrote: An Independent Character is a unit all by itself.Otherwise please show a rule that blanket disallows an Independent Character from acting as a separable and differential unit in a unit with regards to movement.
So, you've fallen back on the old "prove that I can't" debate tactic. This is a permissive rule set, my friend. I don't have to prove that I can't. You have to prove that you can.
You have yet to show permission for a model (and not a Jet Pack Unit) to initiate a Thrust Move.
You have yet to show permission for an IC to be explicitly counted as a separate Unit for the purposes of initiating a Thrust Move.
You HAVE demonstrated time and time again that Character models follow the movement rules for models of their type. This has never been up for debate. Models of the Jet Pack type simply don't have permission in the rules to initiate a Thrust Move. By your own logic, neither would Characters. Only Units have that permission.
Gravmyr wrote: Two questions before I post a wall of text.
1 What is a unit?
2 How is a unit's type determined?
1. Paraphrasing... a unit is one or more models that have "banded together". Units and models are both covered in the Units & Models section near the start of the rule book.
2. We don't know as the rules never explain this. The most common understanding is that if a unit is composed entirely of models with the same type, the unit also shares that type. There are no rules to cover units composed of models with a variety of types.
How do you know what unit type a mixed unit with the Destroyer is? How are you making the assumption that the unit type is not also Jetpack?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In cases where it would make more sense, how do we know unit does not refer to the models that compose a unit not just the "unit."
Gravmyr wrote: How do you know what unit type a mixed unit with the Destroyer is? How are you making the assumption that the unit type is not also Jetpack?
The rules don't cover mixed units, so you have to make a decision.
The two most common interpretations I've seen...
Interpretation A - Use the type of the "core" unit. I.e., if an Infantry IC is joined to a Destroyer unit, call the unit a Jet Pack Unit as the "core" Destroyer unit is composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type. The main issue with this theory is that sometimes a "core" unit can have models of mixed type. Examples include Kroot w/Kroot Hounds and Fire Warriors w/Gun Drones.
Interpretation B - Require that all of the models in a unit be of the same type for that unit to be called that type. If there are a variety of model types, call it a mixed unit and you lose any special benefits attributed to units of a certain type. So, a Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Destroyers would be a Jet Pack Unit. A Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Warriors would be a mixed unit.
I tend to go with interpretation B, but can see the argument for A.
Suprisingly, that's how the Rules work: Permission given to override a restriction. Let's get back to how Ever-living means you actually break Rules. I guess most of your games "break" rules then?
Telling you to follow a rule is not making an exception to that rule. It is telling you to follow it not break it. Stop trying to claim following a rule means breaking it.
I am not making any claims. I am following Rules which give permissions over other Rules. That's just how the system works.
Ever-living is telling you to follow its Rule. You are the one saying it "breaks" the Instant Death rule. If that is your definition of how the game works, then sure, i am breaking A LOT of Rules...
nosferatu1001 wrote: Black - no. The IC MODEL has permission as a model to move according to its unit type
The thrust move requires the IC model to evoke a rule available to units
The IC is not a unit. This is clear. The IC has permission to move, yes, but it still has no permission to act as a unit. It has permission as a model.
Model permission is insufficient. This is a demonstrated fact.
What Rule are you using to say that the IC is not a Unit? Is it this?
"he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
The RaW, demonstrably, point out that characters "follow the movement rules for models of their type". They do this independently from the rest of the Unit.
You could almost say (for the sake of understanding) that they are their own Unit when it comes to following the rules for movement. (Where they follow the rules for models of their type). Before you quote this and disagree, Characters (especially not-IC ones) are obviously part of the Unit (and never their own Unit). But for the sake of movement, they "follow the movement rules for models of their type".
Now the Fact that "Jet Pack Unit" is referred to, but never defined, is the common assumption not that "Jet Pack Unit" is when all the models concerned are "Jet Pack Infantry" (for eg.)?
Kriswall wrote: 2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.
2) with no rules definition we fall to English. A jet pack unit must refer to a unit of jet pack models. Thus all the models must be jetpack.
So when a rule says "follow the movement rules for models of their type" which models does this apply to?
Are they all Jet Pack models?
Does that make them a "Jet Pack Unit"?
Kriswall wrote: Because GW used the word unit and not models. Simple as that.
It is just as simple to assume that there are times when they did not match up their own terminology, we know this happens as they post errata to fix this regularly. As was stated earlier in this thread they do not use a proper copy editor. We can either take all the words as verbatim or not. Picking and choosing makes it impossible to have a discussion as you have to put into all your interpretations all words in a section/sentence that you do not believe are correct and define each one to exclude any possible alternatives.
Unit: A unit usually consists of several models that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, a tank, a war engine or a rampaging monster, is also considered to be a unit in its own right.
Even though the above tells you that the unit is not just the concept of the group of models but the models as a whole, people choosing to assume that unit can only be defined as such. If that is the case please post a rule stating that.
Unit Type: In most cases, it will be fairly obvious which unit type category a model falls into, but as unit type is essentially an extension of the characteristic profile, you’ll be able to find that information in the relevant codex or Army List Entry.
You posted two options above but there is a clear representation of the entire unit that was not covered and that is a unit has all types that it's models have. This is the only comprehensive interpretation that follows the thought that a unit is made up of all models. If we do this the unit that we are discussing works just fine with each model moving and acting by it's own rules as put forth by the movement rules.
As an aside this would also solve a number of other conflicts in the book.
Gravmyr wrote: How do you know what unit type a mixed unit with the Destroyer is? How are you making the assumption that the unit type is not also Jetpack?
The rules don't cover mixed units, so you have to make a decision.
The two most common interpretations I've seen...
Interpretation A - Use the type of the "core" unit. I.e., if an Infantry IC is joined to a Destroyer unit, call the unit a Jet Pack Unit as the "core" Destroyer unit is composed entirely of models with the Jet Pack type. The main issue with this theory is that sometimes a "core" unit can have models of mixed type. Examples include Kroot w/Kroot Hounds and Fire Warriors w/Gun Drones.
Interpretation B - Require that all of the models in a unit be of the same type for that unit to be called that type. If there are a variety of model types, call it a mixed unit and you lose any special benefits attributed to units of a certain type. So, a Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Destroyers would be a Jet Pack Unit. A Destroyer Lord joined to a unit of Warriors would be a mixed unit.
I tend to go with interpretation B, but can see the argument for A.
Agreed. I used to be "B", because anyone would always evoke "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" as a solution to everything regarding ICs.
Then i found out that the Rule had 1 exception from this thread. And it seems like that one exception works in the favour of explaining this situation (movement).
I would also point out that in order to ascertain the "Core" of Interpretation A, i use Interpretation B. So i still "believe" in both, and that "he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes" makes Interpretation A more likely. But "B" is not incorrect... creates issues though...
Suprisingly, that's how the Rules work: Permission given to override a restriction. Let's get back to how Ever-living means you actually break Rules. I guess most of your games "break" rules then?
Telling you to follow a rule is not making an exception to that rule. It is telling you to follow it not break it. Stop trying to claim following a rule means breaking it.
I am not making any claims. I am following Rules which give permissions over other Rules. That's just how the system works.
Ever-living is telling you to follow its Rule. You are the one saying it "breaks" the Instant Death rule. If that is your definition of how the game works, then sure, i am breaking A LOT of Rules...
nosferatu1001 wrote: Black - no. The IC MODEL has permission as a model to move according to its unit type
The thrust move requires the IC model to evoke a rule available to units
The IC is not a unit. This is clear. The IC has permission to move, yes, but it still has no permission to act as a unit. It has permission as a model.
Model permission is insufficient. This is a demonstrated fact.
What Rule are you using to say that the IC is not a Unit? Is it this?
"he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
The RaW, demonstrably, point out that characters "follow the movement rules for models of their type". They do this independently from the rest of the Unit.
You could almost say (for the sake of understanding) that they are their own Unit when it comes to following the rules for movement. (Where they follow the rules for models of their type). Before you quote this and disagree, Characters (especially not-IC ones) are obviously part of the Unit (and never their own Unit). But for the sake of movement, they "follow the movement rules for models of their type".
Now the Fact that "Jet Pack Unit" is referred to, but never defined, is the common assumption not that "Jet Pack Unit" is when all the models concerned are "Jet Pack Infantry" (for eg.)?
Kriswall wrote: 2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.
2) with no rules definition we fall to English. A jet pack unit must refer to a unit of jet pack models. Thus all the models must be jetpack.
So when a rule says "follow the movement rules for models of their type" which models does this apply to?
Are they all Jet Pack models?
Does that make them a "Jet Pack Unit"?
ALL models follow the movement rules for models of their type. I think the Character call out is just to make sure we realize that there is no practical difference between Infantry and Infantry (Character) as relates to movement.
If a model has the Jet Pack type, then it's a Jet Pack Model.
A model can never be a Jet Pack Unit, as models and units are different things. The model can be part of a Jet Pack Unit. The model can even be part of a Jet Pack Unit composed of only one model. Units are kind of like containers. Models are the contents. Containers can do things like open and close. Contents can't open or close. Units can do things like initiate Thrust Moves. Models can't initiate Thrust Moves.
Not quite, a unit is like a container but the models are the material which the container is made of. You said it yourself, the model is part of the unit, it is not held by the unit. When a unit moves, the models are moved then the unit is said to have moved. When a unit attacks the models attack.
Gravmyr wrote: You posted two options above but there is a clear representation of the entire unit that was not covered and that is a unit has all types that it's models have. This is the only comprehensive interpretation that follows the thought that a unit is made up of all models. If we do this the unit that we are discussing works just fine with each model moving and acting by it's own rules as put forth by the movement rules.
This is indeed a third correct alternative. Only because "whole" Unit Types are just not defined in the BrB.
It may solve some issues, but it will create others. Such as Tau warriors with attached Drones. By this definition, the Unit <Tau Warriors> is an Infantry, Jet-Pack Infantry Unit.
If you apply "A Jet Pack unit that is not locked in combat or charging can move up to 2D6" in the Assault phase" then the Rule applies to the whole Unit (and all of them can move). This being of course, if you do not take the whole "they are their own Units within Units" which is even harder to get at by RaW, but i can grasp the concept....
Also, if enemies have Preferred Enemy (Jump Units), it would apply to all the Rolls.
And possibly more issues of the same sort.
It's understandable, but IMHO not the valid answer. I would rather go back to working with Interpretation B as how things work in RaW
Suprisingly, that's how the Rules work: Permission given to override a restriction. Let's get back to how Ever-living means you actually break Rules. I guess most of your games "break" rules then?
Telling you to follow a rule is not making an exception to that rule. It is telling you to follow it not break it. Stop trying to claim following a rule means breaking it.
I am not making any claims. I am following Rules which give permissions over other Rules. That's just how the system works.
Ever-living is telling you to follow its Rule. You are the one saying it "breaks" the Instant Death rule. If that is your definition of how the game works, then sure, i am breaking A LOT of Rules...
nosferatu1001 wrote: Black - no. The IC MODEL has permission as a model to move according to its unit type
The thrust move requires the IC model to evoke a rule available to units
The IC is not a unit. This is clear. The IC has permission to move, yes, but it still has no permission to act as a unit. It has permission as a model.
Model permission is insufficient. This is a demonstrated fact.
What Rule are you using to say that the IC is not a Unit? Is it this?
"he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
The RaW, demonstrably, point out that characters "follow the movement rules for models of their type". They do this independently from the rest of the Unit.
You could almost say (for the sake of understanding) that they are their own Unit when it comes to following the rules for movement. (Where they follow the rules for models of their type). Before you quote this and disagree, Characters (especially not-IC ones) are obviously part of the Unit (and never their own Unit). But for the sake of movement, they "follow the movement rules for models of their type".
Now the Fact that "Jet Pack Unit" is referred to, but never defined, is the common assumption not that "Jet Pack Unit" is when all the models concerned are "Jet Pack Infantry" (for eg.)?
Kriswall wrote: 2. The rules refer to a "Jet Pack Unit", but never define what that means. We're forced to make a judgment call. Not everyone will make the same call.
2) with no rules definition we fall to English. A jet pack unit must refer to a unit of jet pack models. Thus all the models must be jetpack.
So when a rule says "follow the movement rules for models of their type" which models does this apply to?
Are they all Jet Pack models?
Does that make them a "Jet Pack Unit"?
ALL models follow the movement rules for models of their type. I think the Character call out is just to make sure we realize that there is no practical difference between Infantry and Infantry (Character) as relates to movement.
If a model has the Jet Pack type, then it's a Jet Pack Model.
A model can never be a Jet Pack Unit, as models and units are different things. The model can be part of a Jet Pack Unit. The model can even be part of a Jet Pack Unit composed of only one model. Units are kind of like containers. Models are the contents. Containers can do things like open and close. Contents can't open or close. Units can do things like initiate Thrust Moves. Models can't initiate Thrust Moves.
I do agree, and my basis is completely within those bounds. Character models have allowances to move by their type, independently from the other models.
So although the Unit container can only Open / Close on the left, the Character has permission to Open / Close on the Top.
We know he has permission, but we also know that as a "model", he can not Open / Close at all. So what container is he in?
Not the Unit one as he's not followingtheirmovement Rules. So he's in a container, inside the Unit container. (An IC does not follow "for all rules purposes" at this point)
Either (your interpretation) he's just a model with more movement permission that he can never use (What does allowing you to move "as your Type" allow you to do past the rules Units already have?).
Or (my interpretation) he "does not count as part of the unit for this rule purpose". Which is why that Rule has a "though". The character, who is in some container (i refuse to call it "Unit") can Open/Close and Thrust move.
He's still part of the Unit (especially non-ICs), but he has movement allowances "outside" of the Unit:
- Allowances "outside" of the Unit Type.
Now have a read of this Rule, and try to grasp why it would be needed:
CHARACTER AND MOVING
Characters follow the movement rules for models of their type, whether Infantry, Jump Infantry, Bikes, etc. However, remember that they must maintain unit coherency with any unit they are in.
My belief is that the Characters following movement rules for models of their type rule is there just to reinforce the idea that Infantry models and Infantry (Character) models move the same way.
Still waiting on explicit permission for anything other than a Jet Pack Unit to initiate a Thrust Move OR explicit permission to treat a Character model as an entirely separate unit for movement purposes.
Black - again, we have a rule thast a unit must evoke, and a rule that the model can evoike. TGhe Character can move, but cannot itself evoke a rule assigned to aunit
You CANNOT say it is "like" a unit for movement purposesa, because the urles never say that. The ruler is, functionally, redundant.
gwarsh41 wrote: Man, I feel like with the last 3 books there are people just trying to change the definition of words to make the rules work how they want.
Do you have anything interesting to add from a rules debate perspective? I'm not even sure which side of the fence you fall on in this debate.
Let me start by saying that I don't think RAW are complete enough to fully answer this question, so this is a HIWPI post
I've been reading along but not posting because I wasn't sure where I stood on this until reading Gravmyr's posts.
I have to say that I agree with Gravmyr, and I can explain why - it breaks the least rules.
If I make a unit composed entirely of independent characters that has a Wolf Lord on foot, a Wolf Lord with a jump pack, a Wolf Lord on a bike, and a Wolf Lord on a thunderwolf mount what is the unit type? Is it infantry, jump infantry, bike, or cavalry? I would argue (and I think Gravmyr would agree with me here) that it is all of those things.
If you subscribe to interpretation A, then the unit type would depend on who joined who and all but one model would lose their movement rules.
If you subscribe to interpretation B, then none of the models get to use their movement rules because there is no core unit.
If you subscribe to Interpretation C (that all of the models get to use their own movement rules), then everybody gets to use their movement rules.
If you subscribe to either A or B, does the unit go to ground when pinned? If you subscribe to C, the models that can go to ground would go to ground and the other models would simply be stuck with them - in my mind this makes the most sense.
If you subscribe to either A or B, does the unit get to turbo boost or run? If you subscribe to C, then the models that can run could run, and the models that can turbo boost could turbo boost.
If you subscribe to C, then a jet pack model could make his thrust move while the infantry models stood still.
Again, this is HIWPI because I don't believe the rules give adequate direction for units with mixed model types in it.
Every post here is HIWPI as none can answer the question of what unit type a unit is in a mixed unit per the rules. Until that is sorted any comment about the mixed unit being or not being a particular type is known to be interpretation not RAW. If we assume the unit is the sum of it's parts not separate from them then many issues throughout the rules make sense.
You might still encounter issues with rules that call upon specific Unit types "as a Unit". Being all of your Types together will enable certain situations that might not have been intended...
I am also being vague because i don't like it but have to agree with validity due to lack of RaW, and have had my fill of RaW Philosophy.
Imaginary Rule, that you try to apply to "independent characters that has a Wolf Lord on foot, a Wolf Lord with a jump pack, a Wolf Lord on a bike, and a Wolf Lord on a thunderwolf mount (attached to scouts)":
"If you Hit an enemy Jump Unit (with this pistol), all models in the unit are removed from play"
I would guess your conclusion is that only "a Wolf Lord with a jump pack" gets removed, but why?
If you parse "Jetpack Unit" as Jetpack models in a unit then that will solve most problems. Another example is the oft argued wording in the psychic phase. "For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot, or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules." If we parse "any unit" to means "any unit with models" then the sentence actually makes sense in that models have special rules not units. If we separate the two in name we separate them in nature.
If you believe we can do anything with a unit without doing so with it's models please post it.
Gravmyr wrote: If you parse "Jetpack Unit" as Jetpack models in a unit then that will solve most problems. Another example is the oft argued wording in the psychic phase. "For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot, or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules." If we parse "any unit" to means "any unit with models" then the sentence actually makes sense in that models have special rules not units. If we separate the two in name we separate them in nature.
If you believe we can do anything with a unit without doing so with it's models please post it.
I agree that this resolves many issues and it's basically now I normally play things... but it's not RaW. It's requiring us to add a definition that doesn't exist in the rules. You're effectively saying that you want to replace the word unit with the word models in certain rules to make the rules function how you want them to function. That's a house rule. It's a decent one that most people wouldn't argue against, but it's still a house rule.
We haven't even touched on non-Character situations. What about a scenario where you have 6 Fire Warriors and 2 Gun Drones in one unit. They were all purchased as part of a Tau Empire Fire Warrior Squad. The Fire Warriors are Infantry models and the Gun Drones are Jet Pack Infantry models. None of the models are Characters and there are no ICs present. Is the unit a "Jet Pack Unit"? Can the Gun Drones ever perform a Thrust Move while the Fire Warriors are alive? Again, it comes back to how you define "Jet Pack Unit". RaW, I don't think they can. HIWPI, I generally allow it and have never had an opponent say I can't. I'll make a Thrust Move to reposition the Drones to wherever I want them, but still maintain coherency with the models who can't Thrust.
Every post here is HIWPI as none can answer the question of what unit type a unit is in a mixed unit per the rules. Until that is sorted any comment about the mixed unit being or not being a particular type is known to be interpretation not RAW. If we assume the unit is the sum of it's parts not separate from them then many issues throughout the rules make sense.
Well I can sort the first part. The unit has no type, units don't have types models do. So a mixed unit doesn't have a type it is simply a mixed unit. Units don't and never have types as nothing ever gives a unit a type.
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If you believe we can do anything with a unit without doing so with it's models please post it.
Rolling to hit and to wound with both shooting and CC is ONLY done against units not models.
I'm not replacing it, I'm putting forth that trying to say the unit is somehow separate from the models is impossible to play. The term unit refers to the models that compose the unit. I still have yet to have anyone put forth anything you can do with the unit that does not involve the models.
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FlingitNow wrote: Well I can sort the first part. The unit has no type, units don't have types models do. So a mixed unit doesn't have a type it is simply a mixed unit. Units don't and never have types as nothing ever gives a unit a type.
Then there is nothing about the statement that Jet Pack Units can make the Thrust Move in the Assault Phase in your opinion, even in a mixed unit that stops models from using thrust move then?
Rolling to hit and to wound with both shooting and CC is ONLY done against units not models.
Where are you getting the BS to make the roll and the strength of the weapons as well as the Toughness you are rolling against then? Please enlighten me how you do this without the involement of the models.
Then there is nothing about the statement that Jet Pack Units can make the Thrust Move in the Assault Phase in your opinion, even in a mixed unit that stops models from using thrust move then?
Sorry your English is difficult to follow not entirely sure what you are saying here. But yes units don't have a type so a Jet Pack unit can ONLY refer to a unit made up exclusively of Jet Pack unit type models. There is no other RaW way to interpret that.
Where are you getting the BS to make the roll and the strength of the weapons as well as the Toughness you are rolling against then? Please enlighten me how you do this without the involement of the models.
Bs comes from firing models not target unit. You use the Toughness of the unit which is defined as the majority toughness of the models within it. You do not perform these actions against the models at all this is against a unit. Only at wound allocation do the models become directly involved.
FlingitNow wrote: But yes units don't have a type so a Jet Pack unit can ONLY refer to a unit made up exclusively of Jet Pack unit type models. There is no other RaW way to interpret that.
Really? What in the Thrust rules states all models must make the thrust move? What in the rules states that all models must be of that unit type?
Bs comes from firing models not target unit. You use the Toughness of the unit which is defined as the majority toughness of the models within it. You do not perform these actions against the models at all this is against a unit. Only at wound allocation do the models become directly involved.
Above I asked for something you do with a unit that does not involve the models. You then went directly to state you use the models to determine everything about the attack. How is that doing an action without involving the models?
Gravmyr wrote: Every post here is HIWPI as none can answer the question of what unit type a unit is in a mixed unit per the rules. Until that is sorted any comment about the mixed unit being or not being a particular type is known to be interpretation not RAW. If we assume the unit is the sum of it's parts not separate from them then many issues throughout the rules make sense.
An IC is a unit all on its own. It indicates that clearly on the Army List Entry.
When an IC joins a unit it is a unit in a unit.
However, it loses some of that "unit in a unit" status.
It counts as part of the unit for all intents and purposes except for character rules. Note the use of the word counts as and not is. "Counts as" is very different logically than "is." The IC still is technically a unit in its own right. Just take a look at the Army List Entry. "Counts as" does not strike 'unit' off the Army List Entry. The rules say we treat an IC as part of a unit in certain domains and as a unit in its own right in an overall unit in other domains (specifically the character rules).
The character rules include specific means of handling movement. Independent characters are told via the character rules to follow their own rules for movement.
Unequivocally, the IC is a unit in a mixed unit when it comes to movement so the Jet Pack movement rules trigger without a problem since the Destroyer Lord is a jet pack unit (just read the Army List Entry). In issues other than character rules the IC counts as part of the unit, but you have to follow the character rules in all other cases and the movement exception means we are treating the IC as a unit in its own right in a mixed unit. The blanket statement "counts as part of unit for all intents and purposes" does not cover the character rules so the IC is a unit in a unit when it comes to character rules and therewith movement rules.
Really? What in the Thrust rules states all models must make the thrust move? What in the rules states that all models must be of that unit type?
The first question nothing why even ask that, no one has made that claim. The second question is answered in the post. Do you have something that defines Jet Pack unit beyond the standard English?
Above I asked for something you do with a unit that does not involve the models. You then went directly to state you use the models to determine everything about the attack. How is that doing an action without involving the models?
Because it doesn't involve the models of the unit in question. I really don't get your point here. You asked for something it was provided.
FlingitNow wrote: The second question is answered in the post. Do you have something that defines Jet Pack unit beyond the standard English?
You made a claim now it is up to you to back that up with a rule quote or an explanation why it is the only possible interpretation. A simple statement that it is the only possible interpretation is not proof.
Because it doesn't involve the models of the unit in question. I really don't get your point here. You asked for something it was provided.
Except you didn't, by using the models characteristics you involved them. To prove it make the rolls without consulting the models' characteristics. If you can't then they are involved.
Automatically Appended Next Post: By your own words a unit does not have a type. If that's the case then it can't actually refer to a unit, it has to be referring to the models that have the Jet pack unit type.
You made a claim now it is up to you to back that up with a rule quote or an explanation why it is the only possible interpretation. A simple statement that it is the only possible interpretation is not proof.
Your inability to understand plain English is not my concern. Units don't have types models do, units are made up of models. A jet pack unit therefore does refer to a type for the unit but must refer to the types of the models within. Does it list anything other than jet pack? Nope so those models can't have types other than Jet Pack. This is RaW as it is literally what the rules say.
By your own words a unit does not have a type. If that's the case then it can't actually refer to a unit, it has to be referring to the models that have the Jet pack unit type.
Nope unit is not model they are separate terms with different meanings. The ONLY thing Jet Pack unit can possibly refer to RaW is a unit of models that all have the Jet Pack type.
As there is no clear definition of what a mixed unit is, RAW is pretty vague. We can argue this over and over again, I've seen it pop up in other threads with no clear winner. We can all agree the book is poorly written as well as the codices. Not sure if this helps or compounds the situation, but most tournaments have ruled that RAI is that a jet infantry character can preform thrust moves when attached to a non jet infantry unit. Just as a psykic character can use powers when attached to a non psykic unit. To say one can and the other is pretty silly. The most reputable tournament league, the ITC have ruled it as such. I realize this is a house rule, but it's the best we have barring an official GwFAQ.
Play as you wish, but I suggest you adopt a similar house rule if you plan on attending any grand tournaments. Like NOVA, BAO, or the LVO.
An Independent Character is a unit on its own. It has its own Army List Entry and its own unit type and a unit composition of for example "1 Destroyer Lord"
The Independent Character does not count as part of the unit when it comes to character rules. The character rules instruct us to have the characters follow the movement rules for models of their type
The Jet Pack movement rules get triggered just fine in the case of an Independent Character. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack unit on its own and is treated as a unit in a mixed unit with regards to character rules (which include exceptions to movement).
col_impact wrote: An Independent Character is a unit on its own. It has its own Army List Entry and its own unit type and a unit composition of for example "1 Destroyer Lord"
The Independent Character does not count as part of the unit when it comes to character rules. The character rules instruct us to have the characters follow the movement rules for models of their type
The Jet Pack movement rules get triggered just fine in the case of an Independent Character. The Destroyer Lord is a Jet Pack unit on its own and is treated as a unit in a mixed unit with regards to character rules (which include exceptions to movement).
This is entirely correct.
We know the rules tell us that IC's move according to their own model type.
How does an IC move on its own? Well, Jet Pack Infanry get to make Thrust move in the assault phase. Therefore, as IC's are specifically allowed to follow thier own model rules for movement, Jet Pack Infantry thatare IC's always to make a thrust move. This is overruled by other rules - such as being locked in combat - as that rule also applies in the case of a single IC.
FlingitNow wrote: The ONLY thing Jet Pack unit can possibly refer to RaW is a unit of models that all have the Jet Pack type.
I assume you can back that up. As you are well aware, people can and do refer to groups within group all the time. If you walk into a room and refer to 'you guys' it can and often does include other people. I can also walk into said room and refer to just the guys by saying 'you guys.' So no a Jet Pack unit does not have to refer to only a unit made up of only models with the Jet Pack unit type. You are including a determiner that is not present.
FlingitNow wrote: The ONLY thing Jet Pack unit can possibly refer to RaW is a unit of models that all have the Jet Pack type.
I assume you can back that up. As you are well aware, people can and do refer to groups within group all the time. If you walk into a room and refer to 'you guys' it can and often does include other people. I can also walk into said room and refer to just the guys by saying 'you guys.' So no a Jet Pack unit does not have to refer to only a unit made up of only models with the Jet Pack unit type. You are including a determiner that is not present.
Again your inability to grasp English is again not my concern.
Again your inability to grasp English is again not my concern.
Ignoring the irony of this sentence for a moment, if you're not prepared to make an actual argument beyond 'lern 2 english', please refrain from responding.
If you're reaching that point where there is an impasse in the discussion due to different viewpoints on the language used, maybe it's just time to agree to disagree and move on.
.... And i find myself agreeing with "move at different speeds"...
