I enjoy the Months of Shame story, it is a tale of morally grey story, with both sides in the right and wrong, fighting for what they believe. One of the few stories I feel was done very well in that regard.

On that note, I was wondering what dakka's concsesus was on which side you think is in the right.

The Inquisition / grey knights

Or the space wolves?

The wolves were clearly in the wrong in terms of the big picture. All it takes is a single corrupt human to bring down a planet, and corruption is extremely insidious and invasive.

Plus, it is not as if the Wolves would be taking responsibility for those they let slip away, had they got their way.

The Inquisition are arseholes, yes. It's their jobs to be. They are the ones required to make the tough decisions, to decide who lives and who dies, whether a world is worth the investment of millions of Imperial lives, or if Exterminatus is the proper course of action. It is they who face horrors that would shatter the minds, souls and bodies of lesser humans. It is they who have to study the myriad threats that face the Imperium, not only so they can combat these threats in the literal sense, but so they can detect them before they get out of hand, and bring the appropriate tools to bear to excise them, much as one would rather excise a cancerous growth before the entire limb must be cut away.

Armageddon? The Inquisition's response was the only appropriate response. The Space Wolves only made it worse.

Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

 dusara217 wrote:
Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

Yes. Because it is so not a waste of resources to send several million expendable guardsmen through a costly and expensive mindwipe process.

Oh wait. It is an even bigger waste.

Sorry, but Guardsmen are the most expendable resource in the Imperium.

Second most expendable, Curran - there are civilians hanging around somewhere.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Second most expendable, Curran - there are civilians hanging around somewhere.

Point taken. The Guardsmen ARE carrying around slightly useful lasguns.

I think, had the Wolves made assurances to seek out and eliminate any Chaos taint on a case-by-case basis, taking on the responsibility of carefully going through each transport and encampment, and protecting any nearby systems from becoming contaminated, they would have been in the right.

As it stands, though, their attitude of "Do nothing and let everyone go, even if it means yet another repeat of the Armageddon Wars" was nearsighted and foolish. The Inquisition had every right to punish them for endangering the Imperium, although I think Exterminatus against all those secondary worlds was a bit of prideful overkill on the part of Kysnaros.

The Inquisition was in the right. Chaos corruption is a powerful thing.

Wow. The polls are tied o.0

 dusara217 wrote:
Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

but if you mind-wipe people it is genocide. That's the very definition, like the original definition of genocide. Actually all of the plans were genocide.

The term genocide was coined in 1944, and it was defined in a way that would include what you describe. If you want to use the term genocide, it has to mean this:


Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.


If you mean mass murder, then you have to say mass murder.

I feel the scenario was created so that no side could ever be completely in the right.
My heart is with the Wolves, because wiping out generations of people will never sit easy, but I can absolutely understand the method used by the Inquisition.

The wolves are the do the opposite mob.
If the Inq had of told them to guide the civvies out of the system, they would have slaughtered them all, because possibly tainted.

 curran12 wrote:

Sorry, but PEOPLE are the most expendable resource in the Imperium.

Fixed that for you.

Yes, side with the dogs...err Wolves. I am sure that no taint of the Glorious.... err hated Chaos remained. Of course, they had to be punished. Can't have anyone question the Inquisition. Not like the infighting makes Khorne happy, with all that Imperial blood being shed. Blood for the Blood God!. *Cough* What was that?

But really, I voted for Inquistion, as there is no such thing as too careful with the realm of Chaos.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I feel the scenario was created so that no side could ever be completely in the right.
My heart is with the Wolves, because wiping out generations of people will never sit easy, but I can absolutely understand the method used by the Inquisition.

I think everyne in their heart wishes the space wovles where right, but praticaly speaking knows the inqusition proably knew what they where doing

If the SW were right, then the setting falls apart. It ceases to be grimdark and, worse, it completely defangs Chaos as the "insidious threat, a cancer eating at the Imperium from within" that it's always been.

 Psienesis wrote:
If the SW were right, then the setting falls apart. It ceases to be grimdark and, worse, it completely defangs Chaos as the "insidious threat, a cancer eating at the Imperium from within" that it's always been.

But that's just it. Its a grimdark setting, that doesn't mean everything in it is grimdark.

Its grimdark because herorics like this likely lead to more harm than good. Its grimdark because lights are being snuffed out all the time. Its grimdark because the inquisitions REGULAR action is what they did.

Its grimdark because actions like the wolves are rare, and seen as more harmful than good. Its grimdark because people believe they now have to become monsters, to protect themselves from monsters.

The wolves were, ethically right. Its the same today of saying that in Atlanta there was a new disease outbreak, it kills and spreads at alarming rates, the government bombs it to kill everyone and the disease, then take anyone POTENTIALLY. CONTAMINATED And offing them or putting them in quartine for life.

The setting is grimdark because acts like the wolves did are rare.

This story is a pure example of the setting, more so than almost any other I have read, and the wolves are ethically/morally right. especially by our standards today.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I feel the scenario was created so that no side could ever be completely in the right.
My heart is with the Wolves, because wiping out generations of people will never sit easy, but I can absolutely understand the method used by the Inquisition.

I think everyne in their heart wishes the space wovles where right, but praticaly speaking knows the inqusition proably knew what they where doing

Aye, I did say completely... There's no doubt less cost and time effective methods the inquisition could have used, but likewise I'm looking at this with a 2015 brain.

"Some may question your right to destroy ten billion people. Those who understand know that you have no right to let them live."

Definitely on the Inquisition's side in my case, as far as altruism goes, it serves very little purpose in the grand scheme of the Imperium's fight to survive. If Angron's invasion and mere presence was able to turn half of Armaggedon's PDF forces over to chaos, it shows how traumatic and corrupting having mere contact with them was like. Given how insidious chaos can be those exposed can just be ticking time bombs waiting to be released. Better to let them die than cause others greater harm.

 Grimskul wrote:
Definitely on the Inquisition's side in my case, as far as altruism goes, it serves very little purpose in the grand scheme of the Imperium's fight to survive. If Angron's invasion and mere presence was able to turn half of Armaggedon's PDF forces over to chaos, it shows how traumatic and corrupting having mere contact with them was like. Given how insidious chaos can be those exposed can just be ticking time bombs waiting to be released. Better to let them die than cause others greater harm.

indeed heck it's worth noting that in the emperor's gift, Hyperion while psyicly peeping on the people, sees a guy so tramuatized he begins drawing the sigils. we literally see someone just being corrupted

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
There's no doubt less cost and time effective methods the inquisition could have used, but likewise I'm looking at this with a 2015 brain.

And what methods might those be, exactly?

And before you pick one to defend, realize that if you miss one case, if exactly one corrupted person in the millions who had to be purged, you are likely dooming at least another world, if not several more. If you don't choose a method that has a 100% guarantee, you are ensuring that this situation keeps going on and that the losses and Chaos incursions continue to rise.

And as far as costs, okay. The entire Imperium is in a state of constant war. Please identify a source of resources, both in terms of a place to keep, feed and house these people as well as manpower to keep them in line that can spare enough to watch millions of people. Millions of people, I will add, that are all potential vectors for Chaos incursion. By sparing those people, you have created a ticking time bomb (or bombs if you decide to spread these unfortunates out) that can easily knock out a world or system. Who is going to volunteer to sit on them to see if they go off or not? Or, to put it another way, who are you going to have watching a potential enemy while dozens of actual enemies are already at the doorstep?

And as an aside for mindwiping, you realize that it is an extensive process, right? It is no easy quick Men in Black flashy thing. Do you think you can efficiently and usefully process millions of people, any of whom (just to repeat myself) can go corrupt while waiting for that achingly slow process to happen?

Please, let's see what you can offer to fix it.

yup, fact is killing all the people IS the cheapest most expediant solution.

What GW or Black Library should have done was showed that the taint of Chaos really DID spread thanks what happened with civilians and others escaping the Inquisition at Armegeddon. As far as I know, to my knowledge, they never said whether it did or not so we can only speculate on the results, right?

My memory could be wrong.

And ladies and gentlemen, that's why it's grimdark

TiamatRoar wrote:What GW or Black Library should have done was showed that the taint of Chaos really DID spread thanks what happened with civilians and others escaping the Inquisition at Armegeddon. As far as I know, to my knowledge, they never said whether it did or not so we can only speculate on the results, right?

My memory could be wrong.

BrianDavion wrote:indeed heck it's worth noting that in the emperor's gift, Hyperion while psyicly peeping on the people, sees a guy so tramuatized he begins drawing the sigils. we literally see someone just being corrupted

 Furyou Miko wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:What GW or Black Library should have done was showed that the taint of Chaos really DID spread thanks what happened with civilians and others escaping the Inquisition at Armegeddon. As far as I know, to my knowledge, they never said whether it did or not so we can only speculate on the results, right?

My memory could be wrong.

BrianDavion wrote:indeed heck it's worth noting that in the emperor's gift, Hyperion while psyicly peeping on the people, sees a guy so tramuatized he begins drawing the sigils. we literally see someone just being corrupted

Ah, thanks! My eyes skipped that post for some reason.

that said we never see if any of the soldiers who left WORLD where trainted.
and I prefer it that way. the book worked better with us not knowing for sure who was REALLY right it was easily the most morally ambigious story I've read for 40k... which is proably why it numbers one of my favorites

If you're not siding with the Inquisition in this you're either not fully understanding the situation or trying to push real world morals into your view point. The Inquisition has no such luxury.

At what point is it right to become a monster to beat a monster. That's the question here.

The point is to put this into our morale views.

 n0t_u wrote:
If you're not siding with the Inquisition in this you're either not fully understanding the situation or trying to push real world morals into your view point. The Inquisition has no such luxury.

except WE do. and thats why it's such a great story. because our head tells us one thing, our heart tells us another thing, and we find ourselves feeling sympathy for both sides. we know the inqusition is proably right, but at the same time, we look at the space wolves, and a part of us hopes they're right. thus, we watch these two forces go head to head and we find ourselves not sure who we want to win. It's why it's such a good story. and ADB did a GREAT job with it

In the end I have to believe the wolves were right.

In a totally non-biased opinion, totally not based as all upon awesome dudes riding awesome wolves, I say screw the Inquisition.

A vote for 'screw the Inquisition' is a vote for 'screw humanity'.

BrianDavion wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
If you're not siding with the Inquisition in this you're either not fully understanding the situation or trying to push real world morals into your view point. The Inquisition has no such luxury.

except WE do. and thats why it's such a great story. because our head tells us one thing, our heart tells us another thing, and we find ourselves feeling sympathy for both sides. we know the inqusition is proably right, but at the same time, we look at the space wolves, and a part of us hopes they're right. thus, we watch these two forces go head to head and we find ourselves not sure who we want to win. It's why it's such a good story. and ADB did a GREAT job with it

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

When hope is lost, we are lost.

Hope is the last thing to go, and when all is lost, there is always hope. And for answering the OP, I want the Wolves to be right, but chaos is just so dangerous, and the Wolves didn't really have an actual plan for what to do instead.

Hope is the beginning of unhappiness.
-- Imperial Thought for the Day.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A vote for 'screw the Inquisition' is a vote for 'screw humanity'.

So let us burn those who did it with fire?

I don't want to set the world on fire...

... I just want to light a flame under your heretics.

It makes no sense fluff wise. They do not normally destroy the billions upon billions of guardsmen who have fought against chaos. So why did they this time? 'To keep the existance of Chaos a secret'... I call BS! Chaos is known by humanity across the imperium. We are in the 41st Millenium not the 31st!

 raiden wrote:
At what point is it right to become a monster to beat a monster. That's the question here.

The point is to put this into our morale views.

Wolves are the monster. Remember Prospero,

Poly Ranger wrote:
It makes no sense fluff wise. They do not normally destroy the billions upon billions of guardsmen who have fought against chaos. So why did they this time? 'To keep the existance of Chaos a secret'... I call BS! Chaos is known by humanity across the imperium. We are in the 41st Millenium not the 31st!

The Guardsmen who fight chaos and aren't killed only ever fight the archenemy's mortal troops and occasional Space Marines.

The whole point of Armageddon was that it was a full-scale daemonic incursion. There weren't any cultists or Chaos Marines on Armageddon. Those enemies can be fought without necessarily latching onto the guardsmens' brains - against the Archenemy's living troops, the only real dangers are being shot and shellshock save the occasional encounter with a witch.

On Armageddon, every guardsman was in direct conflict with the forces of the Immaterium. It wasn't contact with chaos that they needed to be destroyed for, it was contact with unfiltered warpstuff.

Poly Ranger wrote:
It makes no sense fluff wise. They do not normally destroy the billions upon billions of guardsmen who have fought against chaos. So why did they this time? 'To keep the existance of Chaos a secret'... I call BS! Chaos is known by humanity across the imperium. We are in the 41st Millenium not the 31st!

That's what Commissars are for. And Guardsmen don't actually face the manifest forces of the Warp all that often.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
It makes no sense fluff wise. They do not normally destroy the billions upon billions of guardsmen who have fought against chaos. So why did they this time? 'To keep the existance of Chaos a secret'... I call BS! Chaos is known by humanity across the imperium. We are in the 41st Millenium not the 31st!

The Guardsmen who fight chaos and aren't killed only ever fight the archenemy's mortal troops and occasional Space Marines.

The whole point of Armageddon was that it was a full-scale daemonic incursion. There weren't any cultists or Chaos Marines on Armageddon. Those enemies can be fought without necessarily latching onto the guardsmens' brains - against the Archenemy's living troops, the only real dangers are being shot and shellshock save the occasional encounter with a witch.

On Armageddon, every guardsman was in direct conflict with the forces of the Immaterium. It wasn't contact with chaos that they needed to be destroyed for, it was contact with unfiltered warpstuff.

actually you're wrong. there where indeed CSMs on Armageddon. world eater's where present as well as deamons. but yeah, it was definatly waaaay above the norm.

The presence of the World Eaters is far, far less-important than the presence of the Daemon-Primarch Angron, and the hordes of actual Daemons.

An evil Space Marine is bad, but the literal denizens of Hell are far, far worse.

 Psienesis wrote:
The presence of the World Eaters is far, far less-important than the presence of the Daemon-Primarch Angron, and the hordes of actual Daemons.

An evil Space Marine is bad, but the literal denizens of Hell are far, far worse.

and the absolutly worst thing possiable is a deamon primarch. the emperor's very own flesh and blood corrupted to the service of the enemy. I imagine that's pretty supressed.

Yep. The very sight of Angron is the sort of thing that can lead to entire worlds turning from the Ecclesiarchy and falling to the worship of the Ruinous Powers. The knowledge of such monstrosities can lead to soul-shattering revelations. Fire and brimstone, thunder and lightning, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria.

I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

 FireWolf698 wrote:
I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

It is not seeing a demon. It is knowing they exist. And you can bet that everyone knew.

And Grimnar's methods to suppress that ensured that both Astartes and Guard forces suffered even greater numbers of casualties. Such a humanitarian.

 curran12 wrote:

 FireWolf698 wrote:
I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

It is not seeing a demon. It is knowing they exist. And you can bet that everyone knew.

And Grimnar's methods to suppress that ensured that both Astartes and Guard forces suffered even greater numbers of casualties. Such a humanitarian.

That's just it, the CIVILLIANS are specifically stated to have NOT known Bout chaos, they didn't know what they were fighting, the wolves suggested the stratagey knowing it would cost many more wolf and guard lives, -because- the civilians still didnt know about chaos, and he wanted to keep it that way BECAUSE he didn't want them killed.

 raiden wrote:
I enjoy the Months of Shame story, it is a tale of morally grey story, with both sides in the right and wrong, fighting for what they believe. One of the few stories I feel was done very well in that regard.

On that note, I was wondering what dakka's concsesus was on which side you think is in the right.

The Inquisition / grey knights

Or the space wolves?

Nobody was right, both behaved like asses.

I refuse to acknowledge neither the inquisitor nor grimnar saw all of it coming

My opinion is that both factions allowed all of this to become a pissing match between a first founding chapter and the inquisition

 raiden wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 FireWolf698 wrote:
I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

It is not seeing a demon. It is knowing they exist. And you can bet that everyone knew.

And Grimnar's methods to suppress that ensured that both Astartes and Guard forces suffered even greater numbers of casualties. Such a humanitarian.

That's just it, the CIVILLIANS are specifically stated to have NOT known Bout chaos, they didn't know what they were fighting, the wolves suggested the stratagey knowing it would cost many more wolf and guard lives, -because- the civilians still didnt know about chaos, and he wanted to keep it that way BECAUSE he didn't want them killed.

and it's worth noting though that the civilians where NOT killed. however they WHERE sterlized. and THAT suggests there where concerns other then JUST knowledge of chaos. my guess is just being on a world with that level of chaos was gonna taint their genetics. any future children would have a MUCH MUCH higher chance of mutation

You cold hard gaks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 FireWolf698 wrote:
I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

It is not seeing a demon. It is knowing they exist. And you can bet that everyone knew.

And Grimnar's methods to suppress that ensured that both Astartes and Guard forces suffered even greater numbers of casualties. Such a humanitarian.

That's just it, the CIVILLIANS are specifically stated to have NOT known Bout chaos, they didn't know what they were fighting, the wolves suggested the stratagey knowing it would cost many more wolf and guard lives, -because- the civilians still didnt know about chaos, and he wanted to keep it that way BECAUSE he didn't want them killed.

and it's worth noting though that the civilians where NOT killed. however they WHERE sterlized. and THAT suggests there where concerns other then JUST knowledge of chaos. my guess is just being on a world with that level of chaos was gonna taint their genetics. any future children would have a MUCH MUCH higher chance of mutation

They were sterilized wtf? Taint is hereditary?

They were sterilized wtf? Taint is hereditary?

Of course. The Warp is magic, and the concept of "the bloodline of a witch" or similar things is not so far-fetched. Why wouldn't the influence of Chaos be able to extend along generations?

Even the gene-damaging effects of real-life radiation can do this, why not the radiation from the very fires of Hell, born from an alternate dimension of sentient, and homicidal, emotions?

From a moral and ethical perspective the answer is NO what the inquisition did was not right. Preemptively slaughtering the guard regiments that had served is not right even if it did prevent chaos taint from spreading.

A better solution would have been to make the guard regiments into an “anti-daemon incursion force” to work directly under the inquisition so they would not have to risk corrupting more soldiers in the future and they could keep an eye on them directly.

That risks *every* planet that Inquisitor visits, as well as the Inquisitor himself, his fellow Inquisitors, and whatever high-security, ultra-top-secret information or artifacts they might have been in possession of.

Inquisitors know the risks, though - an Inquisitor is at that risk whether they have a private army or not.

I think far less at risk when using, say, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers or seconded Sisters of Battle than Guardsmen who have been exposed to a Daemon-Primarch.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think far less at risk when using, say, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers or seconded Sisters of Battle than Guardsmen who have been exposed to a Daemon-Primarch.

I actually doubt this. Although technically it WOULD cost more, the benefits far outway the costs IMO.

If you apply the same level of training and indoctrination to the guard regiments that survived fighting against the pure unrestrained forces of the warp then it is plausible that they would be MORE loyal, MORE adept at fighting chaos, and MORE valuable than other Inquisitional guard forces available.

This was a missed opportunity due to some paranoia.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
That risks *every* planet that Inquisitor visits, as well as the Inquisitor himself, his fellow Inquisitors, and whatever high-security, ultra-top-secret information or artifacts they might have been in possession of.

I doubt that its any more of a risk then seeking out various ways to bond daemons souls to human bodies to use as soldiers and all the other crazy crap the inquisition does with chaos from time to time.

Eveyone votes INQ not realizing the whole thing is a Xanatos gambit to cause doubt in a member of the Grey Knights, and through that doubt corrupt them.

The Inquisition just happened to willingly fall into the role they were to play, Just as Planned.

So it's grim dark because the Wolves are Right, but no one sees it that way. Sure, there could still be cultists hiding on Armageddon, and people still know that daemons exist. So what? You don't think that the Thousand Sons or the Alpha legion couldn't introduce that belief later, if they needed to?

Nor did ignorance of the Atheric entities save the people dedicated to the Imperial Truth pre heresy. It may have even made it easier for them to be corrupted.

 dusara217 wrote:
Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

Something to bare in mind about the 1st Armageddon War is that the fluff hasn't really changed from 1st edition. Back then there were no surgical mind wipes, it was ALL or nothing with the recipient unable to even feed themselves, requiring years of rehabilitation before they could even be retrained. Worth it for a Space Marine, a bit pointless for anyone else.

Durandal wrote:
Eveyone votes INQ not realizing the whole thing is a Xanatos gambit to cause doubt in a member of the Grey Knights, and through that doubt corrupt them.

The Inquisition just happened to willingly fall into the role they were to play, Just as Planned.

So it's grim dark because the Wolves are Right, but no one sees it that way. Sure, there could still be cultists hiding on Armageddon, and people still know that daemons exist. So what? You don't think that the Thousand Sons or the Alpha legion couldn't introduce that belief later, if they needed to?

Nor did ignorance of the Atheric entities save the people dedicated to the Imperial Truth pre heresy. It may have even made it easier for them to be corrupted.

Except no one doubts the GK. Those who would be subject to such died.

Going to have to agree with Psienesis on that part. The Grey Knights were designed to be incorruptible, so I highly doubt some in-fighting with the space wolves is going to lead to their downfall. If anything it might lead the wolves to corruption as they seek new allies after being disillusioned with the Inquisition.

Durandal is getting confused with a different incident that didn't involve Space Wolves.

The Inquisition's doctrine wasn't even consistent. If it only takes one man to corrupt a planet then the Inquisitors themselves should have been lining up the firing squad- the slew of Inquisitors who fall to Chaos every day are proof that they're just as susceptible to its machinations as any other human.

In any case, it took months/years for the Inquisition and Grey Knights to track down most of the Guardsmen who fought in the war (they never found them all, meaning there's probably thousands of Guard who fought there that are still on other planets), and during that time no planet is on record for having been corrupted by tainted Armageddon Guardsmen, so their over-caution was pointless anyway.

Beyond "muh authority", the Inquisition really didn't have a leg to stand on.

In any case, it took months/years for the Inquisition and Grey Knights to track down most of the Guardsmen who fought in the war (they never found them all, meaning there's probably thousands of Guard who fought there that are still on other planets), and during that time no planet is on record for having been corrupted by tainted Armageddon Guardsmen, so their over-caution was pointless anyway.

Um, no?

They tracked every ship that managed to make the jump and committed Exterminatus on their points of destination.

Not according to TEG, iirc.

Though, even if they did, with warp travel being as slow as it is you're still talking months to years at minimum before they got to them all.

Don't have the book immediately on hand, but Lexicanum quotes chapters 19 and 20 as providing the source for that.

Lexicanum wrote:Any world or outpost that came into contact with the survivors was subject to Exterminatus by Grey Knights ships, resulting the destruction of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica station Ralas Meridian, the worlds of Jendara Quintus and Tybuilt, and the Adeptus Mechanicus outpost of Priam Novus. The Inquisition meanwhile hunted down the troop transports themselves, destroying them in Warp transit. It seemed that the Space Wolves actions had only doomed even more worlds to destruction. As the months went by, some elements within the Inqisitorial side pragmatically realized that a complete purge was becoming increasingly unfeasible; combined with Lord Inquisitor Kysnaros's handling of the Wolves and the aftermath of the war, dissension had taken root.

as for the Xantos Gambit. it was a single new grey knight having a MOMENT of doubt over the purging of a world.(not armageddon) the book very specificly uses the phrase "moment of doubt" so yeah it could be a path to corruption.... or Brother Brutus gives it no more thought and nothing happens of it.

Further, doubt in the Inquisition by a Grey Knight isn't corruption. It's a highly-advanced psychic killing machine watching someone who is not such a one make strategic decisions. Not him doubting in the Emperor and deciding to glue spikes onto everything.

pelicaniforce wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

but if you mind-wipe people it is genocide. That's the very definition, like the original definition of genocide. Actually all of the plans were genocide.

The term genocide was coined in 1944, and it was defined in a way that would include what you describe. If you want to use the term genocide, it has to mean this:


Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.


If you mean mass murder, then you have to say mass murder.

Eliminating knowledge of Chaos would not be a coordinated plan of actions aiming at the destruction of elemental foundations of the lives of national groups at all. It would not be an attempt at destroying them, the disintegration of them, their culture, language, religion, national feelings, their economic existence, personal security, liberty, health, dignity, or their lives. If anything, mindwiping would preserve every single one of these by preserving their lives and preventing their corruption by Chaos, and would therefore not be genocide.


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 Gashrog wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Personally, I think that the Inquisition should have just mindwiped everyone and been done with it. Committing genocide is quite simply a waste of resources, not to mention morally wrong in every sense of the word.

Something to bare in mind about the 1st Armageddon War is that the fluff hasn't really changed from 1st edition. Back then there were no surgical mind wipes, it was ALL or nothing with the recipient unable to even feed themselves, requiring years of rehabilitation before they could even be retrained. Worth it for a Space Marine, a bit pointless for anyone else.

I never knew that, thanks for the info.


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BrianDavion wrote:
as for the Xantos Gambit. it was a single new grey knight having a MOMENT of doubt over the purging of a world.(not armageddon) the book very specificly uses the phrase "moment of doubt" so yeah it could be a path to corruption.... or Brother Brutus gives it no more thought and nothing happens of it.

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

or it'll be forgotten about like one of the zillions of other plothooks GW's put out and done nothing with over the years.

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

GK are incapable of falling to corruption.

 Psienesis wrote:

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

GK are incapable of falling to corruption.

That is a fallacious assumption. Imperial propaganda about the Grey Knights says that they are infallable, but that does not mean they actually are immune to corruption. The Primarchs were supposed to be immune to corruption, and look what happened to them - and they were the product of the Emperor's most powerful attempts at creating beings immune to Chaos with his own DNA. The Legiones Astartes were supposed to be immune to corruption, and look what happened to them.

And when I say propaganda, I mean what the Grey Knights tell their Neophytes and other Space Marines, Inquisitors, High Lords, etc. etc.

I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

sure except it seems roughly 50% of the people who voted on the poll are in disagreement with you both sides had their reasons for doing what they did. good reasons that where defensable. this is what makes the story so grey. it would have, I agree, been VERY VERY easy to write this novel from the space wolf POV and make the inqusition out to be cartoonish monsters instead b y making the novel from a GKs POV, (and paring the GKs up with an inqusitoner sympathetic to the space wolves ADB allowed us to really see all sides of the conflict. although I'd say Annika as an inqusitoner was honestly one of the weaker parts of the book. she acted more like a chapter serf then an independant inqusitor.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

His fething name is Brutus. If that isn't heavy-handed allusion to betrayal, then I don't know what is. The name alone tells me that he is going to fall to Chaos when the storyline has further progression.

GK are incapable of falling to corruption.

That is a fallacious assumption. Imperial propaganda about the Grey Knights says that they are infallable, but that does not mean they actually are immune to corruption. The Primarchs were supposed to be immune to corruption, and look what happened to them - and they were the product of the Emperor's most powerful attempts at creating beings immune to Chaos with his own DNA. The Legiones Astartes were supposed to be immune to corruption, and look what happened to them.

And when I say propaganda, I mean what the Grey Knights tell their Neophytes and other Space Marines, Inquisitors, High Lords, etc. etc.

Well, not a single Grey Knight has fallen for 10,000 years since their creation. That's a better record than any other Imperial force.

For all intents and purposes, they ARE incorruptible. There is no evidence to say that they are able to be tainted.

Jimsolo wrote:I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

The thing is that you are ignoring pertinent details, such as the corruption seeded in the guardsmen that needed to be stopped. The Wolves might have had a leg to stand on if they'd been able to suggest an alternative, but they couldn't. They're no better than the Pro-lifers who wash their hands of an unwanted baby once its born.

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Well, not a single Grey Knight has fallen for 10,000 years since their creation. That's a better record than any other Imperial force.

For all intents and purposes, they ARE incorruptible. There is no evidence to say that they are able to be tainted.

*cough*Alaric*Cough*.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

The thing is that you are ignoring pertinent details, such as the corruption seeded in the guardsmen that needed to be stopped. The Wolves might have had a leg to stand on if they'd been able to suggest an alternative, but they couldn't. They're no better than the Pro-lifers who wash their hands of an unwanted baby once its born.

and, just as important the Space Wolves KNEW what the policy was, they just seemed to think they could dictate and bluster otherwise.

here's an extract of Logan speaking to the Grey Knight Captain leading the inital reinforcements.

"Hives Helsreach and Infernus have seen nothing of the true threat. Their citizens have remained safe behind high walls, far from the war.' He turned his eyes back on our captain 'Do I make myself clear?' .... "with the cities untouched and the people free from taint, they will not be "processed" by the Inqusition Am I making myself clearer?"

So this guy clearly KNOWS what the Inqusitions MO is in this case, and he's trying to basicly dictate and bluster otherwise to the Grey Knight commander (ignoring the arrogance of trying to dictate how the inqusition does it's job, he's dictating to the wrong person) so yeah, the Space Wolves just seemed to think they could call on the Inqusition to help handle this, and then bluster and brow beat them into doing whatever they say.
that kind of additude might work on some spineless inbred planetary governer, it might cow a Imperial Guard regimental commander (although I'd wager even then it'd not cow a Cadian of Catachan commander) but it sure as hell isn't gonna work on a independant space marine chapter that knows the enemy better then you do. and the idea it'd word on the inqusition is even more laughable.

It is typical Space Wolf arrogance though.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It is typical Space Wolf arrogance though.

it's extremely typical. and as I said the Space Wolves have gotten away with it plenty because their status as a first founding chapter useally allows em to dictate things. in the inqusition and grey knights they found pretty much one of the few forces in the IoM that really doesn't care

 Jimsolo wrote:
I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

You're approaching the story from the mindset of our current time. In the mindset of 40K, the Inquisition is more than justified.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I enjoy moral grey area stories, but this wasn't one of them. This is a story about the Inquisition's zeal overreaching their moral authority, and the Space Wolves being the only ones with the stones to call them on it.

The Emperor's Gift is one of my favorite BL novels. But I just can't see any interpretation, without ignoring pertinent details, that paints the Inquisition as anything other than monsters in this one.

You're approaching the story from the mindset of our current time. In the mindset of 40K, the Inquisition is more than justified.

Indeed. ask yourself this if you knew a room full of people eaxch potentially, and quite likely, could explode with a force of 50 megatons, could you, in good conscience, let them go and walk around new york city?

BrianDavion wrote:
so yeah, the Space Wolves just seemed to think they could call on the Inqusition to help handle this, and then bluster and brow beat them into doing whatever they say.

"call on the Inquisition to help handle this"


Like Armageddon falling to the forces of Chaos was some thing that the Inquisition was ambivalent about or something. Logan Grimnar called for help because he knew his forces wouldn't be enough to save Armageddon when Angron himself showed up. Hence the 911 call to the Grey Knights.

The Space Wolves are one of two chapters of Space Marines that actually give a crap about humans. Oh don't get me wrong, all the chapters care about the Imperium and humanity in general. The Space Wolves and the Salamanders are pretty much the only Chapters that give a crap about humans as persons though. This wasn't "you'll do what I saw because I'm a space Viking"; this was "you'll spare those people because they are innocents who have seen and heard nothing about what was going on here". Empathy. Something the vast majority of Inquisitorial and Astartes forces lack.



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BrianDavion wrote:
Indeed. ask yourself this if you knew a room full of people eaxch potentially, and quite likely, could explode with a force of 50 megatons, could you, in good conscience, let them go and walk around new york city?

I don't know that you don't have a suicide vest on. Clearly when you come near a puppy I should shoot you in the head, just to be sure.

Empathy. Something the vast majority of Inquisitorial and Astartes forces lack.

Mercy is the sin of the foolish.

The Wolves were in the right. The Inquisition in many cases isn't any better than Chaos, and in some cases, the Inquisition is actually worse.
When fighting a dragon, one should take care not to become a dragon himself. The Inquisition has long since crossed this border and fallen to Chaos. There is no possible victory against Chaos, the actions of the Inquisition with all their plotting, murder and corruption strenghten Chaos rather than weaken it.
The whole of the Imperium has already fallen to Chaos, they just haven't realised yet.

In this case, the choice was between an act that might strenghten Chaos (if corruption had indeed spread amongst the population of Armageddon) or an action that would certainly strenghten Chaos (and have almost the same effect if Chaos would have won the war).

Obviously the moral code of the Space Wolves does not allow for murdering of innocent( well presumably anyways) whereas the Inquisition and Grey Knights do not.

There is the conflict. I'm not even sure if right and wrong are applicable in this situation. Both factions were fighting for humanity, and clearly decided their opponent was in the wrong.

@Psienesis:Where do you get those quotes? They sound like they came straight out of an inquisition novel.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:


@Psienesis:Where do you get those quotes? They sound like they came straight out of an inquisition novel.

Imperial Thought for the Day

... though a lot of them are just from various side-bars in various codices and such, they're just in my head.

 streamdragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
so yeah, the Space Wolves just seemed to think they could call on the Inqusition to help handle this, and then bluster and brow beat them into doing whatever they say.

"call on the Inquisition to help handle this"


Like Armageddon falling to the forces of Chaos was some thing that the Inquisition was ambivalent about or something. Logan Grimnar called for help because he knew his forces wouldn't be enough to save Armageddon when Angron himself showed up. Hence the 911 call to the Grey Knights.

The Space Wolves are one of two chapters of Space Marines that actually give a crap about humans. Oh don't get me wrong, all the chapters care about the Imperium and humanity in general. The Space Wolves and the Salamanders are pretty much the only Chapters that give a crap about humans as persons though. This wasn't "you'll do what I saw because I'm a space Viking"; this was "you'll spare those people because they are innocents who have seen and heard nothing about what was going on here". Empathy. Something the vast majority of Inquisitorial and Astartes forces lack.



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BrianDavion wrote:
Indeed. ask yourself this if you knew a room full of people eaxch potentially, and quite likely, could explode with a force of 50 megatons, could you, in good conscience, let them go and walk around new york city?

I don't know that you don't have a suicide vest on. Clearly when you come near a puppy I should shoot you in the head, just to be sure.

you can bill it as empathy but it was what it was. Logan Grimnar trying to dictate terms to the inqusition through the Grey Knights (which made him look pretty ignorant) despite knowing what the Grey Knights deploying would mean. You're right, the GKs where proably needed, at that point it should have become a chocie to save what he could.


as for your sucide vest comparison, doesn't hold water because you have no reason to belive it. However it's worth noting that if I ran at a military check point in the middile east, they proably would gun me down (fun fact. I know someone who had a machine gun pointed at them because their 12 foot sailing dingy got a little too close to a docked US nuclear submarine.) the Inqusition has been dealing with the hard facts of chaos for the last 10,000 years. they don't show up, finish a fight the IG's been fighting for months, declare victory, and fly away. the Inqusition deals with the harsh realities of the aftermath.

no one cheered when old yeller was shot, but we understood it was nesscary.

Because old yeller was -clearly- sick.


The citizens of armeggedon were very likely NOT. They hadn't even SEEN a cultist, much less a demon. Logan knew this. And he would be damned if he would have sit down and done nothing as innocent people were slaughtered.

Note- he never once returned fire on an inquisition ship until they beytrayed a promise of parely and killed two space wolf ships. After they came to chat.


Clearly, if I'm in a room full with 50 puppies, but one or all of them MIGHT have a deadly virus, that they HAVENT come into contact with but werre on the same planet as then OBVIOUSLY I have to kill them.

That's the equivalent to this. The -only- ones that knew they were fighting traitors were the guard forces, and it specifically states that all they fought were cultists and some traitor marines.

Logan devised the defence plan, even knowing marine losses would double, BECAUSE of that, he wanted to protect the people. And they DID.

you realize the ships the space wolves where protecting where guard transports right? the civilians wheren't killed. they where however sterlized and rounded up into labor camps. which yet again the fact that the inqusition sterlized them suggested they where concerned about genetic corruption from proximity.

Anyway the Inqusition's been dealing with chaos for ten thousand years (note: human civilization on earth is roughly ten thousand years old) they don't do these things for kicks, they do it because hard experiance has shown it's nesscary.


Hence the ole yellar comparison. killing a dog is something we generally see as immoral and bad. but putting down a rabid dog is just "sadly nesscary, he's a danger to himself and others"

BrianDavion wrote:
you realize the ships the space wolves where protecting where guard transports right? the civilians wheren't killed. they where however sterlized and rounded up into labor camps. which yet again the fact that the inqusition sterlized them suggested they where concerned about genetic corruption from proximity.

Anyway the Inqusition's been dealing with chaos for ten thousand years (note: human civilization on earth is roughly ten thousand years old) they don't do these things for kicks, they do it because hard experiance has shown it's nesscary.


Hence the ole yellar comparison. killing a dog is something we generally see as immoral and bad. but putting down a rabid dog is just "sadly nesscary, he's a danger to himself and others"

No, might want to reread it, they were civilian and military personnel ships. The first ship to go down was mostly guard, but they were taking the entire population.

Also, I still note the fact that non of them even knew chaos was there, and direct you back to my comparision, which is much more accurate.

 streamdragon wrote:
The Space Wolves are one of two chapters of Space Marines that actually give a crap about humans.

that we know of. Tons of chapters we know nothing about.

 streamdragon wrote:
Empathy. Something the vast majority of Inquisitorial and Astartes forces lack.

Thanks goodness they do. Empathy would lead the Inquisition to make terrible decisions.
Empathy is very good for a Sister Hospitaler, but very bad for a Sister of Battle.

 streamdragon wrote:


I don't know that you don't have a suicide vest on. Clearly when you come near a puppy I should shoot you in the head, just to be sure.

Unlike you and Brian, on the other hand, the Inquisition have reasonable cause to suspect that the guardsmen DO have suicide vests on.

 dusara217 wrote:
That is a fallacious assumption. Imperial propaganda about the Grey Knights says that they are infallable

You are aware that the GK are completely secret and that everyone who knows about them are mindwiped or killed, right? The only exceptions are very high ranking Imperial personnel and Space Wolves, for both of whom propaganda is more than redundant.

There is no 'GK propaganda.'

 raiden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
you realize the ships the space wolves where protecting where guard transports right? the civilians wheren't killed. they where however sterlized and rounded up into labor camps. which yet again the fact that the inqusition sterlized them suggested they where concerned about genetic corruption from proximity.

Anyway the Inqusition's been dealing with chaos for ten thousand years (note: human civilization on earth is roughly ten thousand years old) they don't do these things for kicks, they do it because hard experiance has shown it's nesscary.


Hence the ole yellar comparison. killing a dog is something we generally see as immoral and bad. but putting down a rabid dog is just "sadly nesscary, he's a danger to himself and others"

No, might want to reread it, they were civilian and military personnel ships. The first ship to go down was mostly guard, but they were taking the entire population.

Also, I still note the fact that non of them even knew chaos was there, and direct you back to my comparision, which is much more accurate.

The civilian population of Armageddon didn't go anywhere. That's not how the Imperium works. The civilians were sterilized and put into work-camps. The ships leaving Armageddon were transport vessels for the IG.

 Psienesis wrote:

 raiden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
you realize the ships the space wolves where protecting where guard transports right? the civilians wheren't killed. they where however sterlized and rounded up into labor camps. which yet again the fact that the inqusition sterlized them suggested they where concerned about genetic corruption from proximity.

Anyway the Inqusition's been dealing with chaos for ten thousand years (note: human civilization on earth is roughly ten thousand years old) they don't do these things for kicks, they do it because hard experiance has shown it's nesscary.


Hence the ole yellar comparison. killing a dog is something we generally see as immoral and bad. but putting down a rabid dog is just "sadly nesscary, he's a danger to himself and others"

No, might want to reread it, they were civilian and military personnel ships. The first ship to go down was mostly guard, but they were taking the entire population.

Also, I still note the fact that non of them even knew chaos was there, and direct you back to my comparision, which is much more accurate.

The civilian population of Armageddon didn't go anywhere. That's not how the Imperium works. The civilians were sterilized and put into work-camps. The ships leaving Armageddon were transport vessels for the IG.

"including the sterilisation (to prevent Chaotic mutations from being passed on) and quarantine of the entire surviving civilian population of Armageddon in Adeptus Arbites work-camps scattered across the galaxy. This was decided even though that population was generally considered untainted, and had no knowledge of the truths behind the war. A similar fate, or even outright liquidation, awaited the human defenders of the Armageddon Steel Legion and the Armageddon Planetary Defence Forces,"

Most of them were being sent to work camps around the galaxy.

 raiden wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 raiden wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
you realize the ships the space wolves where protecting where guard transports right? the civilians wheren't killed. they where however sterlized and rounded up into labor camps. which yet again the fact that the inqusition sterlized them suggested they where concerned about genetic corruption from proximity.

Anyway the Inqusition's been dealing with chaos for ten thousand years (note: human civilization on earth is roughly ten thousand years old) they don't do these things for kicks, they do it because hard experiance has shown it's nesscary.


Hence the ole yellar comparison. killing a dog is something we generally see as immoral and bad. but putting down a rabid dog is just "sadly nesscary, he's a danger to himself and others"

No, might want to reread it, they were civilian and military personnel ships. The first ship to go down was mostly guard, but they were taking the entire population.

Also, I still note the fact that non of them even knew chaos was there, and direct you back to my comparision, which is much more accurate.

The civilian population of Armageddon didn't go anywhere. That's not how the Imperium works. The civilians were sterilized and put into work-camps. The ships leaving Armageddon were transport vessels for the IG.

"including the sterilisation (to prevent Chaotic mutations from being passed on) and quarantine of the entire surviving civilian population of Armageddon in Adeptus Arbites work-camps scattered across the galaxy. This was decided even though that population was generally considered untainted, and had no knowledge of the truths behind the war. A similar fate, or even outright liquidation, awaited the human defenders of the Armageddon Steel Legion and the Armageddon Planetary Defence Forces,"

Most of them were being sent to work camps around the galaxy.

yes sent to work camops, not killed. in "the History of the 1st war for Armageddon according to you" the Inqusition took the civilian population, sterlized them, (the sterlization was carried out via medical check ups, or I think even their food. I'd have to double check) now if the Inqusition had that kinda access to the civilian population? why would they waste time with then taking them into orbit to kill em, there would be more effective ways to kill the planetary populace.

 streamdragon wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
so yeah, the Space Wolves just seemed to think they could call on the Inqusition to help handle this, and then bluster and brow beat them into doing whatever they say.

"call on the Inquisition to help handle this"


Like Armageddon falling to the forces of Chaos was some thing that the Inquisition was ambivalent about or something. Logan Grimnar called for help because he knew his forces wouldn't be enough to save Armageddon when Angron himself showed up. Hence the 911 call to the Grey Knights.

The Space Wolves are one of two chapters of Space Marines that actually give a crap about humans. Oh don't get me wrong, all the chapters care about the Imperium and humanity in general. The Space Wolves and the Salamanders are pretty much the only Chapters that give a crap about humans as persons though. This wasn't "you'll do what I saw because I'm a space Viking"; this was "you'll spare those people because they are innocents who have seen and heard nothing about what was going on here". Empathy. Something the vast majority of Inquisitorial and Astartes forces lack.



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BrianDavion wrote:
Indeed. ask yourself this if you knew a room full of people eaxch potentially, and quite likely, could explode with a force of 50 megatons, could you, in good conscience, let them go and walk around new york city?

I don't know that you don't have a suicide vest on. Clearly when you come near a puppy I should shoot you in the head, just to be sure.

This. So much, this.


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 Ashiraya wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
That is a fallacious assumption. Imperial propaganda about the Grey Knights says that they are infallable

You are aware that the GK are completely secret and that everyone who knows about them are mindwiped or killed, right? The only exceptions are very high ranking Imperial personnel and Space Wolves, for both of whom propaganda is more than redundant.

There is no 'GK propaganda.'

Did I not say that this is what the Grey Knight's/Inquisition say to the Astartes/GK Neophytes/High Lords/etc.? I do believe that I did, but I may be wrong on that. I don't know, let me find the quote...


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Ah, yes, here it is.

 dusara217 wrote:

And when I say propaganda, I mean what the Grey Knights tell their Neophytes and other Space Marines, Inquisitors, High Lords, etc. etc.

Lets cover all the spectrums.

Chaos is a disease, it has been described as such by Chaos adherents themselves. It is a force that will always be present so long as there are humans to feed it.

Chaos has been depicted in an attempt to tame it many times as something that will end in failure. It doesn't get tamed, it eventually will use you. The people who understand this the best are the Grey Knights, and the leader of the Purifiers, Castellan Crowe and his demonsword-beatstick.

You don't leave Chaos a chance. You throttle it all the way, The concept of Armageddon being a Xantos Gambit is almost equally remote as the Space Wolves being right. Grey Knights have doubts about their actions and frequently act in such ways to avoid killing the people they are supposed to protect.

The problem they faced here is do they protect these IG knowing that just one corrupted one may end up being the death of an equal amount they let go? The civilians were going to be sterilized and put into workcamps, but they weren't going to be killed, the IG were to be sent with them. They would have lived.

The Inquisition and their militant never saw the war as a victory. Just another wound, one that might have been infected with a rot.

The Space Wolves had other routes open to them. Their actions ended up killing people who hadn't even HEARD about the war. If they cared so much they would have taken all the people to Fenris or surrounding planets and kept them under supervision for the safety of everyone. Overall the Space Wolves inflicted greater damage to the opposing side than was ever done to them.

In short feth Grimnar he is an idiot and anyone who likes him should burn their puppy collection, I like Bjorn better in every fething way.

 Quickjager wrote:
Lets cover all the spectrums.

Chaos is a disease, it has been described as such by Chaos adherents themselves. It is a force that will always be present so long as there are humans to feed it.

Chaos has been depicted in an attempt to tame it many times as something that will end in failure. It doesn't get tamed, it eventually will use you. The people who understand this the best are the Grey Knights, and the leader of the Purifiers, Castellan Crowe and his demonsword-beatstick.

You don't leave Chaos a chance. You throttle it all the way, The concept of Armageddon being a Xantos Gambit is almost equally remote as the Space Wolves being right. Grey Knights have doubts about their actions and frequently act in such ways to avoid killing the people they are supposed to protect.

The problem they faced here is do they protect these IG knowing that just one corrupted one may end up being the death of an equal amount they let go? The civilians were going to be sterilized and put into workcamps, but they weren't going to be killed, the IG were to be sent with them. They would have lived.

The Inquisition and their militant never saw the war as a victory. Just another wound, one that might have been infected with a rot.

The Space Wolves had other routes open to them. Their actions ended up killing people who hadn't even HEARD about the war. If they cared so much they would have taken all the people to Fenris or surrounding planets and kept them under supervision for the safety of everyone. Overall the Space Wolves inflicted greater damage to the opposing side than was ever done to them.

In short feth Grimnar he is an idiot and anyone who likes him should burn their puppy collection, I like Bjorn better in every fething way.

Good, Bjorn, for the record,
- told the inquisition to FETH off until they de targeted the wolves fortress before "talks" could be had.
- saw both sides but, agreed more with grimnar.


Now, to pick apart your points.

Chaos is a disease- I agree, however, what diseases do you know of that can infect people who never had contact, or where half way across the planet? I ask you, if our soldiers fought a war in which biological weapons were used, you would agree in telling them that they couldn't come home, they couldn't see their families unless said families left the country forever, that for everything they did, they can't take one single step on the soil they fought to defend? (Not even talking about just killing them) because they have a CHANCE of being infected? Note not are, but just because there was a chance- your point seems to say you would agree.

And yet... They have a deamon beatstick sword... Yeah, purge chaos where it shows up. Not because there is a chance of it. If you kill 100 people, because you FEARED chaos would kill a 1000 chaos has already won. Because now they control you, they control your actions, they can predict you.

Because the inquisition didn't want to argue with grimnar, so they made it look like they would comply, however, they still shot at them.
(And let me make a note again, inquisition shot at space wolf ships every chance they got, but the wolves never returned fire. And the wolves rarely ever got hit, or even lost a ship)

- if they had taken them to fenris and surrounding areas they would have had to fight the inquisition and grey knights head to head. Logan didn't want this, its why he ordered his ships to not return fire until he was lied to, and the head inquisitor threw away his honor.

The space wolves inflicted no damage, there are no records of any of the survivors they dropped off on planets that weren't exterminatused (they BLEW UP FETHING PLANETS because some dude, might have had this disease, but FETH it, lets blow up the world just to make sure it doesn't kill them all in case he has it.... Right...) And the ones that didn't get caught, apparently turned out fine.


The inquisition killed more people in their ignorance, than Angorns hordes would have if they had allowed him to ravage the entirety of armeggedon.

I wont speak on your view of Logan, each his own. I still feel Dante would hand it to him.

Edit: typos and some grammar errors.

Chaos is a disease- I agree, however, what diseases do you know of that can infect people who never had contact, or where half way across the planet? I ask you, if our soldiers fought a war in which biological weapons were used, you would agree in telling them that they couldn't come home, they couldn't see their families unless said families left the country forever, that for everything they did, they can't take one single step on the soil they fought to defend? (Not even talking about just killing them) because they have a CHANCE of being infected? Note not are, but just because there was a chance- your point seems to say you would agree.

Magic diseases, from other dimensions. Next.

(And let me make a note again, inquisition shot at space wolf ships every chance they got, but the wolves never returned fire. And the wolves rarely ever got hit, or even lost a ship)

Uh, no. The Wolves' actually lost a ton of ships in the ensuing battles. Of course, because they are Space Wolves, this is never mentioned again or elsewhere, but that's how GW rolls.

The space wolves inflicted no damage, there are no records of any of the survivors they dropped off on planets that weren't exterminatused (they BLEW UP FETHING PLANETS because some dude, might have had this disease, but FETH it, lets blow up the world just to make sure it doesn't kill them all in case he has it.... Right...) And the ones that didn't get caught, apparently turned out fine.

Yes, that's right. It's not "if those guys get away, they might do a thing that kills people" it's "if those guys get away, they might do a thing that spawns a Daemon World inside the borders of the Imperium" or "If those people end up on a Forge World, we may lose that Forge to the Warp". Things that are real, serious threats to the Imperium.

Killing a few hundred thousand people otherwise? Drop in the bucket. Those people are replaceable. The Forge World isn't.

You are dodging the question on the disease part... Replace biological weapons with magical biological weapons. Done.

In the end the wolves lost a lot of ships, but that's AFTER they started fighting back. They didn't lose a whole lot of ships before that.

- I've never heard of such nonsense. If chaos shows up on a planet, as you said, come in, wipe it out, move on. As for spaw ning deamon worlds

Lexicanum - "A daemon world is a planet twisted and corrupted by the power of Chaos and the warp from being trapped in a prolonged warp rift."

So no, just because some cultists pop up and possibly sunmon a few deamons does not a deamon world make. Nice try.

Because you are trying to take an analogy as literal fact.

Chaos is like AIDS-2, which you can catch by seeing someone who has it, even if they are on TV.

If you *hear* about Chaos, it might corrupt your soul. If you *think* about Chaos, it might corrupt your soul. If you happen to be one of the one-in-a-million human beings with an active Psyker gene, you might suddenly explode into a daemonic possessee... even if you've never manifested a single Psychic power.

... and one-in-a-million is a fethload of people on a Hive World.

Opening Warp Rifts is an attainable feat via Chaos Sorcery. Let the wrong corrupted indivdual get away to a new Hive World, they will breed a cult around them. That cult may rise to have the ability to bring about the eruption of a Warp Rift. The Inquisition needs to stop such events long before they get to this stage.

Inquisition logic-

It's a forge wrold, some guy who might fall to chaos, who might get influential enough to get a cult, that somehow goes unnoticed to the point of being able to open a warp rift strong enough to cause a warp storm. (Needed to enshroud the planet in the warp) all before the inquisition get there and stop it.

So we have to exterminatus it to make sure that doesn't happen. Forge world is still lost.

"Some may question your right to send six billion souls to oblivion. Those who understand will know that you have no right to let them live."

 raiden wrote:
Inquisition logic-

It's a forge wrold, some guy who might fall to chaos, who might get influential enough to get a cult, that somehow goes unnoticed to the point of being able to open a warp rift strong enough to cause a warp storm. (Needed to enshroud the planet in the warp) all before the inquisition get there and stop it.

So we have to exterminatus it to make sure that doesn't happen. Forge world is still lost.

thats why you kill those people before they can reach and infect a forge world.

the Inqusition's approuch to Chaos, to continue the medical analogy is literally that of cutting off a gangrenous limb to save the rest of the body

 dusara217 wrote:

Did I not say that this is what the Grey Knight's/Inquisition say to the Astartes/GK Neophytes/High Lords/etc.? I do believe that I did, but I may be wrong on that. I don't know, let me find the quote...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, yes, here it is.

 dusara217 wrote:

And when I say propaganda, I mean what the Grey Knights tell their Neophytes and other Space Marines, Inquisitors, High Lords, etc. etc.

You... You are aware that GK are secret even to Space Marines, right?

And you don't tell propaganda to Inquisitors, High Lords, and the Chapter Masters who do know. Those guys tell the propaganda to others. It's their job to know the truth so others won't have to.

 Ashiraya wrote:

You... You are aware that GK are secret even to Space Marines, right?

Yes, because two squads of GK sent to bolster an offensive comprised of half a Chapter of Space Marines is going to be able to kill them all when they don't want to be mindwiped. Seem legit.

And you don't tell propaganda to Inquisitors, High Lords, and the Chapter Masters who do know. Those guys tell the propaganda to others. It's their job to know the truth so others won't have to.

First of all, nobody is above propaganda. If somebody is trying to persuade you to do something, you are being the subject of propaganda.
Propaganda: information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view
So, of course, when a High Lord of Inquisitor learns of the Grey Knights and how they're all psykers, he will be concerned that they will be the most vulnerable Chapter of all, and, of course, he will be told of how incorruptible they are. Just like a Neophyte will hear of this, which is clearly a piece of information meant to persuade people of the Grey Knights' infallibility. while the Primarchs, just like the Grey Knights, were composed of the Emperor's genetic material, and, oh look, at least half of the Primarchs fell to Chaos.


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Also, propaganda is usually the truth, only it's presented in such a manner to persuade people that your view is correct.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

You... You are aware that GK are secret even to Space Marines, right?

Yes, because two squads of GK sent to bolster an offensive comprised of half a Chapter of Space Marines is going to be able to kill them all when they don't want to be mindwiped. Seem legit.

And you don't tell propaganda to Inquisitors, High Lords, and the Chapter Masters who do know. Those guys tell the propaganda to others. It's their job to know the truth so others won't have to.

First of all, nobody is above propaganda. If somebody is trying to persuade you to do something, you are being the subject of propaganda.
Propaganda: information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view
So, of course, when a High Lord of Inquisitor learns of the Grey Knights and how they're all psykers, he will be concerned that they will be the most vulnerable Chapter of all, and, of course, he will be told of how incorruptible they are. Just like a Neophyte will hear of this, which is clearly a piece of information meant to persuade people of the Grey Knights' infallibility. while the Primarchs, just like the Grey Knights, were composed of the Emperor's genetic material, and, oh look, at least half of the Primarchs fell to Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, propaganda is usually the truth, only it's presented in such a manner to persuade people that your view is correct.

When this story was written, the GK were still the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The Inquisition knew *everything* about the GK. It, in fact, decided when, where and how it deployed. It was, in a sense, one of two "personal pet Chapters" of the Inquisition (the other being the Deathwatch). The "propaganda" of the GK was written by the Inquisition, and that propaganda was "it doesn't exist".

 Psienesis wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

You... You are aware that GK are secret even to Space Marines, right?

Yes, because two squads of GK sent to bolster an offensive comprised of half a Chapter of Space Marines is going to be able to kill them all when they don't want to be mindwiped. Seem legit.

And you don't tell propaganda to Inquisitors, High Lords, and the Chapter Masters who do know. Those guys tell the propaganda to others. It's their job to know the truth so others won't have to.

First of all, nobody is above propaganda. If somebody is trying to persuade you to do something, you are being the subject of propaganda.
Propaganda: information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view
So, of course, when a High Lord of Inquisitor learns of the Grey Knights and how they're all psykers, he will be concerned that they will be the most vulnerable Chapter of all, and, of course, he will be told of how incorruptible they are. Just like a Neophyte will hear of this, which is clearly a piece of information meant to persuade people of the Grey Knights' infallibility. while the Primarchs, just like the Grey Knights, were composed of the Emperor's genetic material, and, oh look, at least half of the Primarchs fell to Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, propaganda is usually the truth, only it's presented in such a manner to persuade people that your view is correct.

When this story was written, the GK were still the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The Inquisition knew *everything* about the GK. It, in fact, decided when, where and how it deployed. It was, in a sense, one of two "personal pet Chapters" of the Inquisition (the other being the Deathwatch). The "propaganda" of the GK was written by the Inquisition, and that propaganda was "it doesn't exist".

I did not know that. However, I refuse to believe that any being is entirely immune to corruption. The Grey Knights may be immune to non-voluntary physical corruption, but psychological corruption is something that no fancy genetics will ever be able to overpower, the only way for that to happen would be for the Emperor himself to personally the mold the souls of each Grey Knight prior to their births (which seems highly unlikely, but would still redonculously awesome).
Also, anybody named Brutus is going to be a traitor, I don't care how fancy his name is, his fething name is brutus, and Chaos is trying to corrupt him. He'll probably be the one to kill his captain, and we'll have a case of "et tu, brute?"

You can refuse to believe whatever you want, I'm not going to argue someone's head-canon. What we are told is that the GK are 100% completely, entirely immune to Corruption.

The GK psycho-indoctrination, combined with their genetic imprint derived directly from the Emperor (even Primarchs did not have this) seems to be sufficient to ward off the effects of Corruption.

As far as Brutus goes? There's more than one hero of legend named Brutus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Junius_Brutus
http://folkrealmstudies.weebly.com/brutus-of-troy-first-king-of-britain.html

... just to illustrate a few.

 Psienesis wrote:
You can refuse to believe whatever you want, I'm not going to argue someone's head-canon. What we are told is that the GK are 100% completely, entirely immune to Corruption.

The GK psycho-indoctrination, combined with their genetic imprint derived directly from the Emperor (even Primarchs did not have this) seems to be sufficient to ward off the effects of Corruption.

As far as Brutus goes? There's more than one hero of legend named Brutus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Junius_Brutus
http://folkrealmstudies.weebly.com/brutus-of-troy-first-king-of-britain.html

... just to illustrate a few.

The first brutus led a massive rebellion, the second murdered his own father, both were traitors regardless of what great deeds they performed.

look you can jump around harping about the name but right now....

nothings happened.

And yes it's possiable a Grey Knight could CHOOSE chaos, and thats what it'd take for one to fall, a deliberate choice. but the odds against that are stacked pretty high. when you literally mold a man from nothing up into what you want him to be, you stand a pretty good chance of his choices being the ones you'll want.

Right now no grey knight has ever been corrupted. there was no corruption at play, insofar as the grey knights are concerned in the 1st war. thus it is a irrelevent hypothetical situation.

Can a Grey Knight be corrupted? doesn't matter none where corrupted at the time.

But the discussion isn't about Grey Knights being corrupted. THe discussion is about guardsmen being corrupted, or at the very least turned into time bombs.

And regular humans can turn to Chaos by looking at the wrong picture in a dirty magazine or reading the wrong Underhive graffiti. It doesn't take much to turn a regular human.

Hell, one guy turns because he looks at a piece of glass recovered from a world that had been subject to a Warp Storm. Goes full-on daemonic possessee, as a matter of fact.

 Psienesis wrote:
And regular humans can turn to Chaos by looking at the wrong picture in a dirty magazine or reading the wrong Underhive graffiti. It doesn't take much to turn a regular human.

Hell, one guy turns because he looks at a piece of glass recovered from a world that had been subject to a Warp Storm. Goes full-on daemonic possessee, as a matter of fact.

These incredibly unlikely 1 in a billion things happen because there are billions on each world. Maybe they need to have some no third child laws to limit the human population and reduce the instances of these happening.

Is there any fluff, anywhere, indicating there was any actual demonic corruption in the guardsmen who survived? I've never seen any fluff source of any kind present the situation as anything other than the Inquisition killing them because hey, why take a chance?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Is there any fluff, anywhere, indicating there was any actual demonic corruption in the guardsmen who survived? I've never seen any fluff source of any kind present the situation as anything other than the Inquisition killing them because hey, why take a chance?

None survived the purge, so evidence of that sort is unlikely to ever be found.

But that is exactly the point of the story, it's to illustrate the ruthlessness of the Inquisition and the conditions by which the 40K setting operates.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Is there any fluff, anywhere, indicating there was any actual demonic corruption in the guardsmen who survived? I've never seen any fluff source of any kind present the situation as anything other than the Inquisition killing them because hey, why take a chance?

None survived the purge, so evidence of that sort is unlikely to ever be found.

But that is exactly the point of the story, it's to illustrate the ruthlessness of the Inquisition and the condition by which the 40K setting operates.

HAH! Space.wolves saved about 20% of the guardsman at least. Sorry, it explicitly states the wolves out maneuvered the Inquisition and the lost track of some.

Yes, but those 20% were then hunted down and the planets they landed on hit with Exterminatus without an Inquisition - 20% may have escaped the planet, but none escaped the purge.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yes, but those 20% were then hunted down and the planets they landed on hit with Exterminatus without an Inquisition - 20% may have escaped the planet, but none escaped the purge.

That's actually not true at all, if you actually read the book there is a discussion I believe with the Fenrisian Inquisitor and Hyperion that admits to the fact they they did indeed loose track of a number of escaped ships and that they were never discovered, as such thousands of guardsman and whoever else did indeed escape the purge on who knows what planets.

And then later the Imperium experiences the "Night of 1000 Rebellions" and other such acts of Heresy. How many of those events descend from corruption in those who may have escaped?

That's Imperial blood on the hands of the Space Wolves.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's Imperial blood on the hands of the Space Wolves.

Claws, you mean. That is blood on the claws of the space wolves. Hence bloodclaws.

Pedants aren't just things you hang on your neck.

I was being facetious, not pedantic.

What about the Battle of Mordian? As far I know the survivors weren't mind wiped or anything like that, and because of the battle the Iron Guard renown grew.

...Didn't the Iron Guard pretty much repel the invasion themselves? I never heard of GK being referenced.

I mentioned it because none of the surviving Mordian Iron guard were mind wiped or sent to the labour camps for fighting daemons.

Hell, what about Cadia? Daemons would most certainly have been present during the Black Crusades, why aren't the Inquisition mind wiping the populace or sending them to labour camps after each Crusade?

Point is, Armageddon is the only incident were the Inquisition are adamant about not letting normal humans have knowledge of the servants of the Ruinous powers.

Cadians don't really mingle much outside of their circles, and actual daemonic interactions are very, very rare. It's not like there's a Bloodthirster busting out of some cultist's face every thirty minutes on Cadia.

Cults are common, yes, as are signs of mortal veneration of the Ruinous Powers... but actual Daemonic attacks are exceptionally rare, as they are throughout the Imperium.