Pretty self explanatory. This question pokes me since a couple of weeks because I started painting Rhinos and Razorback for my Deathwatch and while working on them, I wondered why the Adeptus Astartes puts its precious soldiers in such a weak basket? I know they were designed during the Great Crusade, when Legions were far more numerous and productions runs a bigger problem, but still, it seems passengers' safety was not the first concern of Rhino's inventor.

Forgeworlds and then Chapter Forges did not find any problem in having costly Space Marines in a tank which can be torn appart by massed heavy bolter/multilaser fire. It's not like these weapons are rare on the battlefield plus there are plenty of more powerful things in the universe which can deliver bigger firepower.

Moreover, the AM gave the Chimera to the IG despite the fact its front armor and firepower is superior to the Rhino. Chimera is also amphibious and has a com-system to communicate with dismounted infantry, which Rhino has not. Game-wise, I know they are only 35pts but, shouldn't the Astartes get the best gear while letting the cheap/not-that-great stuff to normal imperial troops? Don't we always hear in the fluff that Marines deserve the best

If you have fluff explanations, I'd be glad to hear it folks!

Fluff-wise, Rhinos are easier to deploy, easier to maintain, and easier to modify than Chimeras. This fits with the Space Marine's rapid response/redeployment tactics and strategies. Chimeras require more supplies to keep running, and if they break down they take longer to repair. They're larger and heavier too, making it more difficult to deploy them in a rapid-response team. Space Marines are better when on foot than in a box, that box is just meant to get them from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible, while breaking down as little as possible.

Rules-wise, it's a holdover from the past. Some decision was made in 3rd edition to give Rhinos to Space Marines, and it just kind of stuck. The fluff too has been slowly moving from Space Marines being "the best of the best" to "always where they're needed, and yeah they're pretty fantastic too" given that there are so many best of best forces now out there.

Essentially, it's an APC, not a tank. The IoM, contrary to what the general "has unlimited resources" line goes, doesn't have unlimited resources. I mean, you could put every single marine in his own Land Raider, but logistically it's impossible. Rhinos are renowned for being able to build out of many materials, making them very versatile and value for money. I'm not really addressing the Rhino vs. Chimera very well, but it's my 2 cents.

The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Yarium and Chaz, I do appreciate your quick responses!

But according to IG codexes, its vehicules too must respond to maintenance, mass production and simplicity requirements because it must be be provided to many many units at the same time. And despite fulfilling the "transport" requirement, the Razorback (IFV version) is still pretty exposed to medium strengh weapons. Tactical Marines are great but very often, they would not refuse more support capacity and durability, since their transport die quite frequently. Sure, Chapters have limited resources but isnt that a reason to build more solid vehicules so they would not have to replace them after each battle? I'm certainly oversimplifying here but you got my point

I am simply poked by the philosophy of the Rhino, which I find not very well in accordance with SM doctrines, and of course, I'm not expecting Land Raiders for every Tac Marine !

 carldooley wrote:
The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Ummmm......what?

 sub-zero wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Ummmm......what?

just trying to justify game design.

Well, from a rules perspective, a Rhino can repair itself if it gets immobilized. A Chimera can't. Battles in 40k take place over, what, 2 minutes "real" time? 5 minutes? 10 minutes tops? Can you imagine just how much time YOU would save if you could almost always fix your car after 10 minutes, no matter the damage to it, whenever it broke down?

Now apply that to the armies in question. The Imperial Guard aren't blitzkrieg'ing it here. If it takes them 30 minutes to repair a vehicle, they're still on the front line. If a Space Marine had to spend 30 minutes fixing a vehicle, they're far behind! Space Marines are built to be where they're needed as fast as possible (hence Drop Pods), so the Rhinos, by being extremely quick to repair and keep going, fit that philosophy much better, even at the cost of some armour.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

I am simply poked by the philosophy of the Rhino, which I find not very well in accordance with SM doctrines, and of course, I'm not expecting Land Raiders for every Tac Marine !

I think it's in accordance with Astartes battle doctrine, just not in accordance with our idea of durable marine kit. The Rhino is not a fighting vehicle. Full stop.

It's a transport. It's meant to move a squad quickly, with enough protection to more or less ignore small arms, non-direct explosions, and (I would imagine) IEDs. If the enemy has anti-tank weapons, or even mid strength weapons, the squad inside is much better off deploying. The marines fight on foot, not in their transports. If the rhino were uparmored, it would help for vehicular assaults on prepared positions, but the Astartes already have three of the best options for exactly that mission profile: landraiders, drop pods, and Thunderhaks. (also Storm Ravens, I guess. sigh).

The Chimera is built for a very different type of warfare. It's meant to allow a squad inside to fight, while reasonably safe in a pitched battle. It has the weaponry and armor to allow that. However, the Chimera is less airmobile, it would likely struggle to hold a full squad of marines, and I'd bet heavily that it's cruising speed and range are both lower.

Well, from a rules perspective, a Rhino can repair itself if it gets immobilized. A Chimera can't. Battles in 40k take place over, what, 2 minutes "real" time? 5 minutes? 10 minutes tops? Can you imagine just how much time YOU would save if you could almost always fix your car after 10 minutes, no matter the damage to it, whenever it broke down?

You sir got a point. But we can always argue that even if you fight for 5/10 minutes against Tau FW, Scatbikes, rebel HWT, it's enough time to them to glance your Rhino to death. And when your car explodes, well, its ability to repair itself is quite of limited use.

It's a transport. It's meant to move a squad quickly, with enough protection to more or less ignore small arms, non-direct explosions, and (I would imagine) IEDs. If the enemy has anti-tank weapons, or even mid strength weapons, the squad inside is much better off deploying. The marines fight on foot, not in their transports. If the rhino were uparmored, it would help for vehicular assaults on prepared positions, but the Astartes already have three of the best options for exactly that mission profile: landraiders, drop pods, and Thunderhaks. (also Storm Ravens, I guess. sigh).

The Chimera is built for a very different type of warfare. It's meant to allow a squad inside to fight, while reasonably safe in a pitched battle. It has the weaponry and armor to allow that. However, the Chimera is less airmobile, it would likely struggle to hold a full squad of marines, and I'd bet heavily that it's cruising speed and range are both lower.

Thanks for constructive answer.

Most APCs have thicker armor and improved ability to withstand obstacles like mines. The Rhino having less armor than a Predator makes zero sense.

The Rhino should at least have AV 11 all around. It doesn't need better weapons either, just armor.

We tend to think of the Astartes as filling the role of shock troops, or grenadiers: heavily armored troopers leading assaults.

They can do this, and during the Crusades they did more of it, but that is not generally the role they play in Imperial battle doctrine. The Astartes are best thought of as highly mobile, incredibly elite, light infantry. Think Rangers, paratroopers, commandos, what have you.

The biggest combat strength for Space Marines isn't power armor or bolters, although those certainly help. it is their ability to reliably strike from orbit to a place on a planet, with the tools and training to handle nearly any target. That they have tanks and other heavy gear at all is a clear nod to the concept that even Astartes stay dirtbound for a while, but their gear is built around the concept of mobility more than overwhelming power.

Of course, this is mostly post hoc rationalization. In reality, when GW started making Army Codices in 2nd edition, they gave the Rhino chassis vehicles to the marines (and chaos and Sisters), while IG got the LRBT and Chimera.

From a fluff POV, marines are already walking tanks, so they don’t need the protection of a rolling one. IG, on the other hand, are squishy and thus need a more rugged transport/IFV.

Logistics is also a big deal. The guard doesn’t work without a massive supply infrastructure accompanying it. Rhinos are light, easy to fix, rugged boxes.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Yarium and Chaz, I do appreciate your quick responses!

But according to IG codexes, its vehicules too must respond to maintenance, mass production and simplicity requirements because it must be be provided to many many units at the same time. And despite fulfilling the "transport" requirement, the Razorback (IFV version) is still pretty exposed to medium strengh weapons. Tactical Marines are great but very often, they would not refuse more support capacity and durability, since their transport die quite frequently. Sure, Chapters have limited resources but isnt that a reason to build more solid vehicules so they would not have to replace them after each battle? I'm certainly oversimplifying here but you got my point

I am simply poked by the philosophy of the Rhino, which I find not very well in accordance with SM doctrines, and of course, I'm not expecting Land Raiders for every Tac Marine !

Exactly, it's an APC, not a tank It's meant to provide protection from small arms fire, tank-busting weapons

 Nevelon wrote:
From a fluff POV, marines are already walking tanks, so they don’t need the protection of a rolling one. IG, on the other hand, are squishy and thus need a more rugged transport/IFV.

Logistics is also a big deal. The guard doesn’t work without a massive supply infrastructure accompanying it. Rhinos are light, easy to fix, rugged boxes.

These are very good points ^^


Space marine vehicles have resupply/recharge facilities on board for power armour so it has another role as a mobile power station on long missions or protracted campains.

Marines in power armor along with their gear weigh significantly more than gurdsmen. This means that bigger engines and more fuel are needed to carry the marines, or weight has to be saved in some other way. It appears the designers have decided to sacrifice armor thickness/weight rather than build a significantly heavier, less moble, more range compromised transport.

Quite simple: The Rhino is an APC intended to get the guys inside to where they need to be as fast as possible, then retreat to a safe distance until they need picking up again. It is not intended to fight.

The Chimera is an IFV. It is intended to get the guys inside where they need to as fast as possible, then support them with its heavy weapons until they need re-deploying. It is a light fighting vehicle.

Rhino armor isn't weak, it's just that the game includes too much cheap anti-tank while having flawed hull point rules.

SJ

I recall reading somewhere that the Rhino chassis is actually based on a fragment of an STC template for a colonial tractor/bulldozer type vehicle, and that its engine may be easily modified to accept virtually any fuel source.

Because it's an APC, not a MBT.

Rhino's are battle taxi's, they're purpose is to be light enough for easy and quick orbital deployment, and be "good enough" to deliver the super soldier infantry to where they need to be. The Space Marines are the real power, the Rhino is just there to deliver them, and the fewer resources spent on getting the good stuff where it needs to be, the better.

Unlike say, a Chimera, which is meant to be an actual fighting vehicle and something of a medium tank, protecting and supporting relatively weak infantry and accounts for much of their overall capability.

Marines in power armor along with their gear weigh significantly more than gurdsmen. This means that bigger engines and more fuel are needed to carry the marines, or weight has to be saved in some other way. It appears the designers have decided to sacrifice armor thickness/weight rather than build a significantly heavier, less moble, more range compromised transport

That's a very good point, plus it makes sense from a realistic point of view, I guess, and I like it.

Rhino armor isn't weak, it's just that the game includes too much cheap anti-tank while having flawed hull point rules.

As a matter of fact, weapons strengh ingame make the universe and if plenty of weapons can tore through Rhino armor, I guess we can conclude that, in the lore, Rhino are quite fragile.

Because it's an APC, not a MBT.

I knew that before posting. Thank you !

Anyway, I can get why Rhino don't have heavier armor but I can't stop thinking that it must be a hard tool to use in a "real 40k" battlefield. I mean, okay, they're fast but Space Marines don't always choose to attack first or don't always choose the terrain which they will fight on. If they don't, they'll most likely meet the shortcomings of this tank sooner or later, which must be dangerous for their own safety. All operational conditions in the galaxy don't allow lightning ground assaults - I think especially about the very end of the Siege of Vraks, when Red Scorpions must attack on foot because all of their transports are shattered - and, as we said, LR are not easily deployed. So, what's the alternative? Razorbacks? Meh. All I want to say is a more powerful IFV could make perfect sense (and would be fun to play) for SM, since they can actually serve as shock troops, just like someone said previously. I don't want to make them even more Mary-Sue-er they can be, but I'm just pointing surprising IMO.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

Marines in power armor along with their gear weigh significantly more than gurdsmen. This means that bigger engines and more fuel are needed to carry the marines, or weight has to be saved in some other way. It appears the designers have decided to sacrifice armor thickness/weight rather than build a significantly heavier, less moble, more range compromised transport

That's a very good point, plus it makes sens from a realistic point of view, I guess, and I like it.

Rhino armor isn't weak, it's just that the game includes too much cheap anti-tank while having flawed hull point rules.

As a matter of fact, weapons strengh ingame make the universe and if plenty of weapons can tore through Rhino armor, I guess we can conclude that, in the lore, Rhino are quite fragile.

Because it's an APC, not a MBT.

I knew that before posting. Thank you !

I can't think of many stories where the Space Marine heros were in a Rhino and it DIDN'T freaking blow up!

Stay away from those cans!

Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

 Formosa wrote:
Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

For a marine assault vehicle, it would need to be 100. That's before you beefed the armor and gave it fast.

 kronk wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

For a marine assault vehicle, it would need to be 100. That's before you beefed the armor and gave it fast.

Nah, marines don't really have much that can take advantage of it, 12/11/10 is worth 40-50pts, fast 10, assault vehicle another 15, so 75/80 max, it has a storm bolter as a main weapon...so not worth anywhere near the same as a serp, ghost arc etc.

But if the Rhino is the standard transport since the Heresy how can someone transport 20 men strong squads in 30k? Did FW release some other DT?

But if the Rhino is the standard transport since the Heresy how can someone transport 20 men strong squads in 30k? Did FW release some other DT?

According to HH Book 1 p.207, their transport capacity is 10 ... Where did you see that?

He means you can take a rhino even with 20 men, just not embark basically.

 mathaius90 wrote:
But if the Rhino is the standard transport since the Heresy how can someone transport 20 men strong squads in 30k? Did FW release some other DT?

They are still 10 man transports. Most HH infantry units start at 5 or 10 models.

 Formosa wrote:
Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

The last thing that the Space Marines need is yet another buff, though if you are going to give the Rhino +1 front armour then the Chimera is taking +1 side armour, thank you very much.

Anyway, with the buffs your proposing there the Rhino would need to cost in the region of 95 to 110 points.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The last thing that the Space Marines need is yet another buff

In light of your recent posts, I can't help but find this somewhat amusing.



Is it your experience that you don't table your opponents fast enough, even when you have enough spare firepower to also get the almost invulnerable Vulkan down to two wounds?

There are things SM has that doesn't need buffs (pods, grav, etc) but Rhinos are not among them.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The last thing that the Space Marines need is yet another buff

In light of your recent posts, I can't help but find this somewhat amusing.

Spoiler:

 master of ordinance wrote:


As it was the three man honour guard died to the Tank Destroyer and Vulcan was the only models left standing at the end of the game and even then he was on two wounds.

Is it your experience that you don't table your opponents fast enough, even when you have enough spare firepower to also get the almost invulnerable Vulkan down to two wounds?

It probably helped that I have a vast knowledge of tactics and thus am able to use my army to the very limits of its capabilities.
It probably also helped that the game lasted for 6 turns. And I popped that transport on turn two. So, 4 turns to bring him down to two wounds.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

The last thing that the Space Marines need is yet another buff, though if you are going to give the Rhino +1 front armour then the Chimera is taking +1 side armour, thank you very much.

Anyway, with the buffs your proposing there the Rhino would need to cost in the region of 95 to 110 points.

Again nah, 70/75pts, 35pts for base rhino, 20 for assault vehicle, or 15, fast is 10, av12 is 5/10, so 70 ish points, and it's got a storm bolter.....ooooo scary, it fulfills one roll and that's it, so nothing over 75pts.

And it wouldn't be a buff to marines, it would allow marines to actually be able to assault, and we all know marines are great at that am I right lol.

Everyone's quaking in their boots at the mere thought of assault marines, aren't they.

Rhinos are simply rugged transport vehicles that are fast and easy to maintain.

Chimeras are IFVs designed to support their troops with heavy weapons fire.

Space Marines don't need IFVs as they can carry enough personal firepower to make them unnecessary. If they need more firepower they have Predators or Razorbacks to do that.

Fluffwise, Rhinos are faster than Chimeras too.

Plus Rhinos and Chimeras technically have the same amount of armor. its just the Chimera sacrificed its side armor to beef up its front. Again because its designed to support frontal assaults, while Rhinos are meant to allow its troops to quickly redeploy to a new location.


The Rhino also has to carry several tons of Space Marine at high speed too. You have 10 marines, each weighing 500-800 pounds in armor. Not counting any gear they might have. Low balling that's 2.5 tons of weight. Which is a lot of armor. This might be why Predators and Vindicators have AV13 on the front. They don't have to carry 2.5+ tons of Marine so they can have more armor.

Marines are a very reactive force. they don't go into a situation blind or one in which they will be involved in a war of attrition, if they can help it anyway. The Rhino is part of lightning strikes that Marines are used for, it doesn't need the armor to do that. If Marines are going into a frontal assault, they'll use Drop Pods, Vindicators, and Land Raiders instead.

 kronk wrote:

I can't think of many stories where the Space Marine heros were in a Rhino and it DIDN'T freaking blow up!

Stay away from those cans!

The Night Lords Novel, Soul Hunter, has a Rhino go up against a Warhound Titan.
The Rhino lives.

Someone promote that Rhino post-haste!

 sub-zero wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Ummmm......what?

If you'd have recalled, the greatest threat to the IOM from a space marines standpoint, is Chaos. Standard Chaos Space Marines carry Boltguns which are Str 4 meaning a standard Rhino cannot be glanced to death by some lowly Heretic. At least thats my stand on it.

Of course, you throw 10 Fire Warriors at a Rhino and its like cutting paper.

The solution is to become a Sister of Battle and ride around in a Repressor. Sororitas - doing things right since the 36th Millennium.

 GoonBandito wrote:
The solution is to become a Sister of Battle and ride around in a Repressor. Sororitas - doing things right since the 36th Millennium.

Including being made out of metal to reflect enemy fire.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Ummmm......what?

If you'd have recalled, the greatest threat to the IOM from a space marines standpoint, is Chaos. Standard Chaos Space Marines carry Boltguns which are Str 4 meaning a standard Rhino cannot be glanced to death by some lowly Heretic. At least thats my stand on it.

Of course, you throw 10 Fire Warriors at a Rhino and its like cutting paper.

CSM are the least numerous members of the Chaos faction.

The Rhino is like a HMMWV, it gets stuff from Point A to Point B. It is not supposed to get into combat. (I am not saying this iw what they were built for, but this is how they perform)
However like all Marines they take them there anyways. They can be ACPs, but are not, but can do the job in a pinch.
Give them Hillbilly Armor (Extra-Armor) and a second Light Machine-gun (Storm Bolter), they can even work as a HMMWV-GMV. Some Grey Hunters with a pair of Plasma -Guns and now you have two M-249 SAWs and a Pair of M2HB .50 Cals
However like a HMMWV they can not stand up to dedicated Anti-Armor Weapons.
You want more firepower you go to the Razorback and you have a light Gun Truck.

The Chimaera fits the role IFV of the M2/BMP.

 Nevelon wrote:
From a fluff POV, marines are already walking tanks, so they don’t need the protection of a rolling one. IG, on the other hand, are squishy and thus need a more rugged transport/IFV.
.

Exactly. If a marine transport blows up the squad inside just gets out and regroups read to attack. The rhino probably got the squad close enough to do their mission.
If a Chimera blows up, half the squad dies and the other half runs off the board unlikely to regroup and take part in the battle. It needs to stay alive longer to ensure its contents can do their mission.

 Exergy wrote:
If a marine transport blows up the squad inside just gets out and regroups read to attack. The rhino probably got the squad close enough to do their mission.

If the enemy is in range, so are you. = If you are in range, so is the enemy.

Oh wow! People want the durability of a Land Raider for the price of a Rhino!

I think the Rhino should be able to take a 20 pt upgrade to give it reinforced plating, that would give its +2 Front and Side AV, maybe even Back AV. It doesn't need to be an Assault Vehicle or be Fast, it just needs better armor. Every Rhino-Pattern vehicle should have access to the Reinforced Plating, though they would have a maximum AV of 14.

If you want to go battle with your transport, take a land raider.

If I was to ask for an upgrade to a Rhino or a Razorback, that upgrade would be Fast. I can't think of anything else that those models really need. And they don't even really need Fast.

Maybe 2 smoke launcher charges.

Other than that, the vehicle is perfect for its points cost.

 j31c3n wrote:
If I was to ask for an upgrade to a Rhino or a Razorback, that upgrade would be Fast. I can't think of anything else that those models really need. And they don't even really need Fast.

Maybe 2 smoke launcher charges.

Other than that, the vehicle is perfect for its points cost.

Totally agree, they are perfect for the cost nearly, but we're talking fluff and fluff says they are qrf vehicles, tough and rugged, the current rhino is not this, I don't mind much though, otherwise we'd have av15 land raiders, that fire pure dub step from their nipples lol.

 Formosa wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
If I was to ask for an upgrade to a Rhino or a Razorback, that upgrade would be Fast. I can't think of anything else that those models really need. And they don't even really need Fast.

Maybe 2 smoke launcher charges.

Other than that, the vehicle is perfect for its points cost.

Totally agree, they are perfect for the cost nearly, but we're talking fluff and fluff says they are qrf vehicles, tough and rugged, the current rhino is not this, I don't mind much though, otherwise we'd have av15 land raiders, that fire pure dub step from their nipples lol.

Fluff says marines are tought super humans, terminators and dreads are almost indestructable. Tacticals marines are cannon fodder in game, so rhino is in line.

Rhinos work pretty well as mobile cover, or at least a distraction. You move to where you want your troops, disembark forward, fire off all the weapons you can, then flat out the Rhino in front of them to block return fire.

Still wouldn't mind it having a little better armor, even if it cost a few more points (while leaving the current version available).

The low armor is why people choose Drop Pods a majority of the time, even IF the opponent knows how to counter-deploy.

If I had the choice between a Chimera, Wave Serpent, and a Rhino, I'd choose the first two every time.

Why does the Rhino have such weak armour?

Why does the Bradley have such weak armour?!

The Rhino is based off the RH1N0 Colonial Exploration Vehicle. It was designed to be an all-terrain vehicle capable of protecting its passengers from the typical hazards of an unexplored colony world - predators, angry herbivores and the occasional sapient primitive with a stone club and meter-long rending claws.

That said, the only reason the Rhino's as fragile as it currently appears to be is because of the Hull Point rules. Really, the glance/pen system is completely backwards at the moment.

Glances should be able to stun vehicles or maybe knock out an exposed weapon mount or damage the tracks, MAYBE blowing something up if it gets really freakin lucky. Penetrating hits should be needed to destroy them via accumulated damage. NOT the other way round!

Ashiraya wrote:Everyone's quaking in their boots at the mere thought of assault marines, aren't they.

As an Imperial Guard player yes I am. The only things that do not [MOD EDIT - PLEASE find a different way to express that sentiment - ALPHARIUS] my Infantry and Tanks in close combat are Tau Infantry and Grots.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I think the Rhino should be able to take a 20 pt upgrade to give it reinforced plating, that would give its +2 Front and Side AV, maybe even Back AV. It doesn't need to be an Assault Vehicle or be Fast, it just needs better armor. Every Rhino-Pattern vehicle should have access to the Reinforced Plating, though they would have a maximum AV of 14.

Sure, feel free to do this. But only so long as you accept the fact that the Imperial Guard will also get it too. And our LRBT's will max out at 15.

Draco wrote:If you want to go battle with your transport, take a land raider.

This. You see people you are all attempting to utilise your Rhino as something it is not, an IFV. Your Rhino is an APC with light armour. It is intended to get the guys inside from point A to point B quickly and keep them safe from small arms fire, a task which it does very well. It is not intended to withstand fire from heavy weapons and it is most definitely not intended to withstand fire from dedicated AT weapons.

Rhinos are a single chassis with many uses. IIRC the fluff from when they first appeared, they were tractor chassis, made to work in battle. When your support team is in a different system, you want a transport that can be kicked back into action.

Chimerae were designed to fit a purpose. Forge-worlds can churn them out by the ship-load, and they're as expendable as the troops they carry. The Techpriests and servitors can fix them up if they break.

If your lightly armoured transport is going to get left half-way up the field as you continue on foot, it doesn't have to be protected that well. This is the Rhino. It is to protect the tactical squad as it follows the vanguard that has cleared its way.
But, if you ride a Chimera into battle, trusting in its armour as you use the mounted gun arrays and turret before hiding behind it for cover, you'll want a tough front-end to help you get there.

 mathaius90 wrote:
But if the Rhino is the standard transport since the Heresy how can someone transport 20 men strong squads in 30k? Did FW release some other DT?

Spartan Assault tanks. 25 man capacity.

However, it's only in the rules that a 20-man squad can't take two Rhinos. I presume they would in the universe. Hell, it's annoying CSMs can't do that. Two Rhinos disembarking 20 CSMs would be hilarious!

Exploration ATVs, not tractors. Do people just not read my posts?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Exploration ATVs, not tractors. Do people just not read my posts?

Nope. Missed that one, after reading most of the posts above it.
See the "IIRC" at the start of the post. It also wasn't the main point in my post.
Yours makes more sense, though.

I did. And I learned something.
Regarding Rhino buff, fast is enough IMO since it is meant to be an APC. Anyway I made this thread to get some explanations and that worked very well.

Special mention to the joke about sisters of battle seen latter in the thread.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
I did. And I learned something.
Regarding Rhino buff, fast is enough IMO since it is meant to be an APC. Anyway I did not make this thread to get some explanations and that worked very well.

Special mention to the joke about sisters of battle seen latter in the thread.

Making it 40 - 45 points and fast would be reasonable.

Because they hide in METAALL BAWKSES!

DA KOWARDZ. DA FUUULS.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
I did. And I learned something.
Regarding Rhino buff, fast is enough IMO since it is meant to be an APC. Anyway I made this thread to get some explanations and that worked very well.

Special mention to the joke about sisters of battle seen latter in the thread.

well, actually that bit's kind of true... the Sisters do have the DT everyone in this thread wants. The Repressor is FAV13, 10 transport, 6 fire points, with a storm bolter, a pintle heavy flamer, smoke laucnhers and a dozer blade as standard.

FAV 13 for a rhino would be too much. I guess the Repressor is designed to fight in close quarters and must be armoured in consequences. Fast USR for the Rhino would suit it well after what has been said here. Even a +1 FAV would not be a shame.

play Blood Angels?

 carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?

pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?

pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

 RazgrizOne wrote:

Anyway, I can get why Rhino don't have heavier armor but I can't stop thinking that it must be a hard tool to use in a "real 40k" battlefield. I mean, okay, they're fast but Space Marines don't always choose to attack first or don't always choose the terrain which they will fight on. If they don't, they'll most likely meet the shortcomings of this tank sooner or later, which must be dangerous for their own safety. All operational conditions in the galaxy don't allow lightning ground assaults - I think especially about the very end of the Siege of Vraks, when Red Scorpions must attack on foot because all of their transports are shattered - and, as we said, LR are not easily deployed. So, what's the alternative? Razorbacks? Meh. All I want to say is a more powerful IFV could make perfect sense (and would be fun to play) for SM, since they can actually serve as shock troops, just like someone said previously. I don't want to make them even more Mary-Sue-er they can be, but I'm just pointing surprising IMO.

It fullfills its purpose, getting Astartes in position without having to make armor saves against low-S fire. In a "real 40k" battle, they are covered from artillery fragments, sniper fire, antipersonnel mines, all those things which wouldn't wipe out a squad but would whittle down their numbers before they can manuever into bolter range. How many casualties does a Rhino have to prevent before it has made it's points back? The outright purpose of the Rhino is to soak fire. It's nothing more than extra ablative wounds. Those Astartes are now alive to add their bolter fire to that of their brothers', which further weakens the enemy before the assault, which is now done with a larger squad, which ends CC faster, preserving more Astartes. In that "real 40k" battlefield, what's the cost of some servitor repair labor compared to the 2 or 3 Astartes it will save?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?

pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Why?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?

pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Only if you don't mind the same changes happening to Drop Pods; becoming fast vehicles and better armour

If people want to change the Rules because 'It makes more sense for an Rhino's to have better armour' then other Vehicles should be granted similar concessions.
For Example: I could never understand why the Tau, a pure shooting army, would have an APC that lacks Fire-Points....

You dont need amazing armor when the guys inside are already in amazing armor.

as to game wise..

it was fine till spam had to ruin it.

(Its still immune to small arms mostly. and it takes relatively dedicated anti tank to even pen it.)

Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

Are we talking about that nonsense spam that shouldn't exist in the first place again?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?

pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Do Leman Russ and Chimeras have the ability to repair their own Immobilized results currently?

 Desubot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

Are we talking about that nonsense spam that shouldn't exist in the first place again?

Assault Cannons are S6. Are they nonsense spam?

Snazzguns?

Venom cannons?

casvalremdeikun wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?

pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Do Leman Russ and Chimeras have the ability to repair their own Immobilized results currently?

Yes, if you take a 5 point upgrade.

Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
play Blood Angels?

pretty much. Want Fast Rhino-Pattern stuff, play Blood Angels, that is their shtick. I don't know if making the Rhino an Assault Vehicle would be the right way to go, though it isn't like it would be a big boost (marines aren't a stellar assault army). I wouldn't mind the Rhino's ability to repair Immobilized being extended to Hull Points. They should be damn near impossible to keep down.

##Once again, just so long as you dont mind the Leman Russ and Chimera gaining these abilities

Why?

Because the Rhino is already really good and having an APC that can just keep on getting back up even in the face of dedicated AT fire is just a stupid concept when the main Heavy Tank of the universe is so easily put down.

The argument "rhino is just a box to protect SM from small arms fire" is kinda weird since everybody here agree to say Rhino actually die from this precise kind of weapons. In order to bring SM at bolter range, perhaps it is necessary to SURVIVE small/medium caliber fire. And actually, Rhino is not armoured enough to do so. It is not even a question of being an IFV, it's just a matter of simply doing its APC work well. I'm talking from a crunch pov btw and I just want to precise I'm not here to beg for SM improvements.

Chimera can have a FW upgrade that lets them ignore immobilization on a 4+

 RazgrizOne wrote:
The argument "rhino is just a box to protect SM from small arms fire" is kinda weird since everybody here agree to say Rhino actually die from this precise kind of weapons. In order to bring SM at bolter range, perhaps it is necessary to SURVIVE small/medium caliber fire. And actually, Rhino is not armoured enough to do so. It is not even a question of being an IFV, it's just a matter of simply doing its APC work well.

Actually only 2 such standard small arms weapons are capable of damaging a Rhino from the front and sides, the Pulse Rifle which is pretty nasty and the Gauss family which to be fair do the exact same thing to a Heavy Tank anyway.

And if you want to be immune to all small arms fire all round then I demand rear armour 12 on all my Leman Russ as the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

In addition, the argument that the SM won't need an armoured tank because they themselves are armoured is flawed. They are tough, yes, but they need a tough tank too as they inevitably will attract a lot of fire.

Having high-quality overcharged engines to compensate for the weight makes sense.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

Are we talking about that nonsense spam that shouldn't exist in the first place again?

Assault Cannons are S6. Are they nonsense spam?

Snazzguns?

Venom cannons?

When they are spammed sure.

But in reality. a few assault cannons or what not will probably not kill a rhino out right. it should take several turns for one to kill it. which im fine with since its not mulching down my infantry.

(actually im completely forgetting if eldar scat bike spam was st5 or 6)

RazgrizOne wrote:FAV 13 for a rhino would be too much. I guess the Repressor is designed to fight in close quarters and must be armoured in consequences. Fast USR for the Rhino would suit it well after what has been said here. Even a +1 FAV would not be a shame.

Pretty much - the Repressor is originally an Arbites vehicle designed for deployment in cities, where the oncoming fire is so much denser due to the reduced firing lanes.

Ashiraya wrote:Never before have I seen someone call S6 'relatively dedicated anti-tank'.

I don't call needing 5s 'easy', either...

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

IIRC... since all IoM technology is based of STC templates, and then adapted for use... I believe that the Rhino is the way it is because it is adapted industrial equipment, used for its ruggedness and capacity rather than combat prowess.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

To be fair the lemon has a giant engine cover on top back that is perforated which would make an excellent target.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

If you're calling bolters shooting your exposed engine 'dying to small arms', then I have bad news for you. Bolters are explosive rounds. It's like having a rapid barrage of small missiles hitting your engine.

I've always found it interesting just what people define as 'small arms' in this game.

It is almost like people forget some weapons are designed to take out 'heavy infantry,' a type of weapon designed to take out infantry wearing armour resistant to standard 'small arms.' While Warhammer 40k does the concept poorly, I don't like the all or nothing Armour Saves system, the narrative behind these weapons should allow for them to damage lightly-armoured vehicles. After all, they are still weapon systems designed to punch through protective armour, so it stands to reason they should be able to punch through lightly armoured vehicles as well.

I will agree with the people who say this type of weapon has become far to common in the game, but that is an entirely different problem.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Bolters are .75 cal weapons.

The LAV has a 1.0 cal chaingun that would struggle to glance tank armor, ev n with specialized ammo. And just because it explodes doesn't mean it's good to destroy vehicles.

Small arms is a relative term.

A lasrifle is a small arms.

So are these!

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Bolters are .75 cal weapons.

The LAV has a 1.0 cal chaingun that would struggle to glance tank armor, ev n with specialized ammo. And just because it explodes doesn't mean it's good to destroy vehicles.

And you have front AV14, so what's the problem?

I am pretty sure that chaingun would do a lot of damage if shot at an engine.

In addition, the bolter caliber is not necessarily .75, depending on your source.

I feel like people are displacing the problem to things unrelated like LR rear armour.

I just wanted to point out that, given the fact S5/6 are ubiquitous in the current state of 40k, Rhino struggles to do its job, which is not really in accordance with its fluffy purpose (I guess what the crunch is and what it should be regarding the fluff is an eternal debate, but whatever).

I'm not talking about LR rear armour for a second; the purpose of the LRBT is not to resist to rear-coming fire but to act like a big metal wall or so. Thus, its rear armour is low. Rhino must sustain fire from the front and the flanks, thus, it has a 4th worst AV possible in the game on both sides.

As a matter of fact, it's not really Rhino's fault; the constant power creep seems to have dramatically reduced its relevance, both in crunch and fluff. Too many S5/6 weapons have actually been spammed by the game designers and the outcome is this (I got this when I saw what someone said about "small arms" definition in 40; S5 is actually powerful, S6 is above the average...).

 Mantorok wrote:

 kronk wrote:

I can't think of many stories where the Space Marine heros were in a Rhino and it DIDN'T freaking blow up!

Stay away from those cans!

The Night Lords Novel, Soul Hunter, has a Rhino go up against a Warhound Titan.
The Rhino lives.

No, that was a Land Raider, which is fairly clear considering it had lascannons. The Rhino got stepped on.

It tanked the titan's firepower fairly well, though!

But I suppose it would, given that said Land Raider could fit 10 of ADB's 3 meter Marines.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

That is a good point. Marines should be T3 and 5+ save as well, just to be absolutely fair.

There is clearly a general design decision at GW to only gave tanks rear armor of 11+ if they are expected to be at closer range.

And I just realized that what I said was totally wrong, so ignore this post!

In my opinion, the discrepancies between the Rhino and the Chimera can easily be explained by looking at what vehicles they're based upon.

Rhino:

The M113 APC:



Relevant wikipedia quotes:
"The M113 introduced new aluminum armor that made the vehicle much lighter than earlier vehicles; it was thick enough to protect the crew and passengers against small arms fire but light enough that the vehicle was air transportable "

"The M113 was developed to provide a survivable and reliable light tracked vehicle able to be air-lifted and air-dropped, by C-130 and C-141 transport planes. The original concept was that the vehicle would be used solely for transportation, bringing the troops forward under armor and then having them dismount for combat; the M113 would then retreat to the rear."

"The basic M113 armored personnel carrier can be fitted with a number of weapon systems. The most common weapon fit is a single .50 caliber M2 machine gun."

Chimera:

The BMP-3 IFV:



Relevant wikipedia quotes:
"The design of the BMP-3 or Obyekt 688M can be traced back to the Obyekt 685 light tank prototype with 100 mm gun 2A48-1 from 1975."

"The hull and turret are made of a high-strength aluminium alloy, with the front of the hull being provided with an extra steel plate welded over it plus spaced armour from the trim vane. The turret is also provided with a thick steel spaced armour shield over its frontal arc. Over the frontal, the vehicle is protected against 30 mm gun rounds at a range of 200 m."

"Standard equipment includes five firing ports with associated vision blocks."

"The BMP-3 is one of the most heavily armed infantry combat vehicles in service, fitted with a low-velocity 2A70 100 mm rifled gun, which can fire conventional shells or 9M117 ATGMs (AT-10 Stabber). 40 100mm-rounds and 8 ATGMs are carried. A 2A72 30 mm dual feed autocannon with 500 (300 HEI and 200 APT) rounds and a rate of fire of 350 to 400 RPM, and a 7.62mm PKT machine gun with 2,000 rounds, all mounted coaxially in the turret."

Rihgu wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

That is a good point. Marines should be T3 and 5+ save as well, just to be absolutely fair.

I would love that but no, that would be wrong. What I am getting at is that you are asking for an already really good APC to have more survivability than an already mediocre Heavy Tank.
If you want that then fine, but Space Marines are not about their tanks, they are about Heavy Infantry supported by some specialist vehicles. So if you want to increase the survivability of the Rhino then you need to proportionally increase the survivability of the Leman Russ to boot.

RazgrizOne wrote:I feel like people are displacing the problem to things unrelated like LR rear armour.

I just wanted to point out that, given the fact S5/6 are ubiquitous in the current state of 40k, Rhino struggles to do its job, which is not really in accordance with its fluffy purpose (I guess what the crunch is and what it should be regarding the fluff is an eternal debate, but whatever).

I'm not talking about LR rear armour for a second; the purpose of the LRBT is not to resist to rear-coming fire but to act like a big metal wall or so. Thus, its rear armour is low. Rhino must sustain fire from the front and the flanks, thus, it has a 4th worst AV possible in the game on both sides.

As a matter of fact, it's not really Rhino's fault; the constant power creep seems to have dramatically reduced its relevance, both in crunch and fluff. Too many S5/6 weapons have actually been spammed by the game designers and the outcome is this (I got this when I saw what someone said about "small arms" definition in 40; S5 is actually powerful, S6 is above the average...).

What are you on about? The Rhino is amazing for what it costs. 35 points is buying you a safe metal box to put your Marines in and scoot them forwards in a way that prevents them from being targeted by all the nasty things out there. If you want them to survive then dont try to use them as assault vehicles. Stick them behind your tanks and advance in an armoured column.
If you want bad then try the Chimera. 65 points buys you a BS3 IFV which can be glanced to death by basic infantry shooting its flank. And no those two heavy weapons do not make up for this. At least your Rhino is immune to flank attacks for the most part.
Besides, only one army has S5 on its basic small arms and that is that Tau.

Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Bolters are .75 cal weapons.

The LAV has a 1.0 cal chaingun that would struggle to glance tank armor, ev n with specialized ammo. And just because it explodes doesn't mean it's good to destroy vehicles.

And you have front AV14, so what's the problem?

I am pretty sure that chaingun would do a lot of damage if shot at an engine.

In addition, the bolter caliber is not necessarily .75, depending on your source.

No, HE bolts do not have the penetration. They will hit and explode but the most they will do is damage the engine through some very, very, lucky spalling. And .75 is the most common calibre given.
Hell, even Kraken bolts would have a hard time, remember that this is 40 to 50 mill of hard armour plate that these are hitting. Your bolters should be doing gak.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In my opinion, the discrepancies between the Rhino and the Chimera can easily be explained by looking at what vehicles they're based upon.

Rhino:

The M113 APC:

Spoiler:

Relevant wikipedia quotes:
"The M113 introduced new aluminum armor that made the vehicle much lighter than earlier vehicles; it was thick enough to protect the crew and passengers against small arms fire but light enough that the vehicle was air transportable "

"The M113 was developed to provide a survivable and reliable light tracked vehicle able to be air-lifted and air-dropped, by C-130 and C-141 transport planes. The original concept was that the vehicle would be used solely for transportation, bringing the troops forward under armor and then having them dismount for combat; the M113 would then retreat to the rear."

"The basic M113 armored personnel carrier can be fitted with a number of weapon systems. The most common weapon fit is a single .50 caliber M2 machine gun."

Quite a dead ringer.

Did someone really just say Rhinos were amazing for the cost?
No. Razorbacks are okay for the cost. Drop Pods are great for the cost. Wave Serpents, even after the nerf, are decent for their cost. The Chimera is decent for its cost.

Rhinos are not decent for their cost. They have essentially no armor and no killing power and have only 3HP. People avoid taking Rhinos when they can for a reason. Nobody allies in Blood Angels for Fast Rhino access.

35 points to zoom a unit up 18" sounds pretty good.

if they live they can zoom back and hold something.

but its ultimately 35 points you are not losing anything special.


Naturally in the balls to the walls all or nothing tourny scene, it wont see play since why bother when you can get razorbacks for free.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did someone really just say Rhinos were amazing for the cost?
No. Razorbacks are okay for the cost. Drop Pods are great for the cost. Wave Serpents, even after the nerf, are decent for their cost. The Chimera is decent for its cost.

Rhinos are not decent for their cost. They have essentially no armor and no killing power and have only 3HP. People avoid taking Rhinos when they can for a reason. Nobody allies in Blood Angels for Fast Rhino access.

The Chimera is terribly over priced. At 65 points its only decent feature is its AV 12 frontal armour. Its sides and rear are 10, and whilst its two weapons may look scary they are most certainly not as due to the poor BS (3) only three shots will hit of which only two will wound and against your average MEQ 0.75 will wound. So stop whining.

Now I can see the problem with the Rhino in your post. Let me highlight it for you:

no armor and no killing power

You. You are the problem, not the Rhino. You are trying to utilise the poor Rhino as something it is not, IE a front line AFV. It is not a front line vehicle that should be out there taking hits and blitzing left, right and centre. It is not some IFV or Tank which drives out there to pound the enemy. It is a cheap APC, a Battle Bus, a TRANSPORT.
It is there to get your Marines from point A to point B quickly and to keep them relatively safe from small arms fire, a task to which it does extremely well. What you are trying to get it to do is to drive out without any escorts or protection and assault an enemy position. There is a reason that APC's in real life never do this and that is because it is stupid.
I suggest that you reassess your playstyle and instead of sending your light transports out try instead sending them behind a line of say two to three Predators and/or Vindicators. Watch as there performance dramatically improves as the tanks block the shots and the APC's carry the infantry to the objective, dismount and secure it whilst the APCs retreat say 6" in to cover.
Then when it is time to move out again your Infantry walk to the Rhino's, embark and drive off to their next objective.

Why the hell does an APC need the armour and firepower of an MBT?
It doesnt.
Stop asking for it.

Just as a note, I do shove my rhinos up the board and use them to carry my units into the teeth of the enemy - and I pay 40 points for them. They do the job admirably, and I have no real complaints. The 6++ on them does basically nothing, incidentally.

Do I lose them? Fairly often. Do I care? No, I'm in flamer range and you just spent a turn killing my rhinos instead of my sisters.

How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

Maybe she's fighting melee-focused foot CSM?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

Using cover? Popping smoke?
Why do Marine players seem to get the impression that they are invulnerable too everything and thus have no need to use cover/smoke?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

I guess we dont all just play only gun lines that sit on there literal table edge. or super quick eldar flat out jetbikes.

if you flat out 18" next turn you will ether have to walk 6" and get shots off if the rhino is alspoded. or you get 12" if it didnt.

So you are literally at there line at that point which can be 12" or 24" left depending on deployment. or you get 6 more " to that.


thats possible rapid fire bolters or plasma.

Flamers might need another turn unless the enemy is also going for close shooting or CQB

and since these things are cheap you can take more of them and scoot up board with the cargo being relatively unmolested.

Rhinos are just cars on the battlefield

Pretty much immune to everything but heavy weapons and the guys inside can (sort of) shoot which is MINT and most armies lack

To be honest I remember when they were 150 pts each and were dropped to 35pts.. everyone went mental... but that was a lifetime ago.. AV 11 is fine..

You don't have to take a rhino.. you have drop pods and storm talons and land raiders.. if you want a car take a rhino.. if not take a tank

The rhino's armor is actually not that weak, it's just that there are so many high strength weapons out there now that the rhino's armor is now fairly easy to get through

I think the problem is a lot of SM players want the Rhino to perform like a Devilfish or a Wave Serpent or something. I remember having Devilfish envy in 4th and 5th edition when I'd fight against my buddy's Tau list.

Nowadays I know what Rhinos are for and I think they're almost perfect.

Honestly its the issue of the game it self.

as EVERYTHING has ramped up in power.

If it cant effectively whip out a unit then its not worth it.



(Edit: Also if its not explicitly doing something flipping amazing like deep striking without mishaps, free guns, various invulvs or jink shenanigans, or just being very sturdy.)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

OK.

Two Repressors Scouting with melta-Dominions. Deploy at the line (12" back from the centre). Scout 12" forwards. First turn, Combat Speed 6" forward, Disembark 6", kill something big and scary.

Two Rhinos - two Heavy Flamer retributor squads. Two Multi-melta Immolators - two Flamer battle sister squads. Deploy at the line. First turn, Cruising Speed 12" forwards, pop smoke (or Flat Out if there's some nice cover to use).

Exorcist. Shows off how scary it is with its D6 S8AP1 BS4 missiles. Another high-priority target.

Enemy turn: They shoot. They have to prioritise the Ignores Cover meltaguns and the Heavy Flamer-armed Repressors. They could shoot at the Rhinos, but frankly, they have bigger things to worry about than a bunch of weak transports that ignore a third of all incoming fire and need S5+ to kill.

Second turn: 6" forwards, disembark, heavy flamer/flamer time.

Well yes, obviously Rhinos survive if the enemy can't afford to shoot at them because there are more threatening things to shoot at. But that is not specific to Rhinos, it goes for everything.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well yes, obviously Rhinos survive if the enemy can't afford to shoot at them because there are more threatening things to shoot at. But that is not specific to Rhinos, it goes for everything.

But it is how rhinos get to live. Armor saturation is the only thing keeping from from exploding in a shower of debris.

I like rhinos. They aren't much, but you don't pay for things you don't need. Look at the land raider. You pay a premium for a high end tank, and rarely use all it's features. With a rhino I'm paying for a thin box on wheels. And it's what I get.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

I guess we dont all just play only gun lines that sit on there literal table edge. or super quick eldar flat out jetbikes.

if you flat out 18" next turn you will ether have to walk 6" and get shots off if the rhino is alspoded. or you get 12" if it didnt.

So you are literally at there line at that point which can be 12" or 24" left depending on deployment. or you get 6 more " to that.


thats possible rapid fire bolters or plasma.

Flamers might need another turn unless the enemy is also going for close shooting or CQB

and since these things are cheap you can take more of them and scoot up board with the cargo being relatively unmolested.

Or Drop Pods that, even with some counter deployment, will blow up your Rhinos.

If you live in an even remotely competitive area you'd see why the Rhino isn't good, especially when the Drop Pod is the same exact price.

Well la-di-dah, good for you.

Some of us have to make do without drop pods for the moment. The Rhino is fine.

I don't know what you're complaining about, Ashi, of course I'm using tactics and other units to protect my Rhinos. That's how tactics work.

Honestly, that's the real problem with this game. So many armies have toys that let you ignore tactics that when someone does have to use tactics to make up for "codex shortcomings", everyone tells them they're beign stupid and/or unrealistic and playing in a "noncompetitive environment".

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Honestly, that's the real problem with this game. So many armies have toys that let you ignore tactics that when someone does have to use tactics to make up for "codex shortcomings", everyone tells them they're beign stupid and/or unrealistic and playing in a "noncompetitive environment".

That plus every loves to mathhammer stuff assuming nothing blocks LOS, everything's constantly in range, and no other mitigating factors exist (psychic powers, smoker launchers, etc).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well la-di-dah, good for you.

Some of us have to make do without drop pods for the moment. The Rhino is fine.

I don't know what you're complaining about, Ashi, of course I'm using tactics and other units to protect my Rhinos. That's how tactics work.

Honestly, that's the real problem with this game. So many armies have toys that let you ignore tactics that when someone does have to use tactics to make up for "codex shortcomings", everyone tells them they're beign stupid and/or unrealistic and playing in a "noncompetitive environment".

Hahahaha, I know, right.
The thing is these SM players seem to think that their Rhinos should be advancing alone towards the enemy without cover and then get all confused and/or butthurt when said lightly armoured APC's detonate/are knocked out. Why, when you have Vindicators and Predators do you choose to advance your lightly armoured APC on is own? Why not throw a Vindicator in there and boost it towards the enemy line? Why not deploy several Vindicators/Predators in a line and advance the APC's behind them?
Why are such basic tactics as armoured assaults and DISTRACTION CARNIFEX so difficult to comprehend?

More SM players should take a page from the book of the Reasonable Marines. I'm currently on a pod list, myself, but I used Razorbacks to great effect with the 6th edition codex. How? I kept them in cover and I saturated the board with other more threatening and/or juicy targets.

That and if you work your list right they are Free!
They can't get much cheaper than that.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Hahahaha, I know, right.
The thing is these SM players seem to think that their Rhinos should be advancing alone towards the enemy without cover and then get all confused and/or butthurt when said lightly armoured APC's detonate/are knocked out. Why, when you have Vindicators and Predators do you choose to advance your lightly armoured APC on is own? Why not throw a Vindicator in there and boost it towards the enemy line?

Well, yes, even dreadfully terrible units like Maleceptors survive well if you provide the enemy with better units to shoot at.

I am not sure how that makes the Rhino any tougher, though...

If the enemy decides to ignore those Predators (single autocannons really are not that scary) then the Rhinos are dead meat.

Why not deploy several Vindicators/Predators in a line and advance the APC's behind them?

So that when they are wrecked, they block the Rhinos' path?

Why are such basic tactics as armoured assaults and DISTRACTION CARNIFEX so difficult to comprehend?

Given your constant assertions that the Rhino is fine for its points and everyone else just sucks, I am not sure if you read the OP. The problem wasn't that Rhinos are bad for their cost - they are not. They are dirt cheap.
The problem was simply that they are too fragile in general, independent of points cost (which does mean paying for it is appropriate, and before you once more go 'okay I want rear armour 14 on my Russes for 5 points', it is not the topic of the thread. Go make a Russ thread if you want to buff them. Although, there is one....)

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well la-di-dah, good for you.

Some of us have to make do without drop pods for the moment. The Rhino is fine.

I don't know what you're complaining about, Ashi, of course I'm using tactics and other units to protect my Rhinos. That's how tactics work.

Honestly, that's the real problem with this game. So many armies have toys that let you ignore tactics that when someone does have to use tactics to make up for "codex shortcomings", everyone tells them they're beign stupid and/or unrealistic and playing in a "noncompetitive environment".

Hahahaha, I know, right.
The thing is these SM players seem to think that their Rhinos should be advancing alone towards the enemy without cover and then get all confused and/or butthurt when said lightly armoured APC's detonate/are knocked out. Why, when you have Vindicators and Predators do you choose to advance your lightly armoured APC on is own? Why not throw a Vindicator in there and boost it towards the enemy line? Why not deploy several Vindicators/Predators in a line and advance the APC's behind them?
Why are such basic tactics as armoured assaults and DISTRACTION CARNIFEX so difficult to comprehend?

No offense, but the way it went for you the last time you shared a battle report during a discussion, I wouldn't be so quick to board the elite gamer train.

Let's go over some of your suggestions.
1) I don't think anyone is suggesting you advance 1 rhino on its own. Frankly I don't take Rhinos in any of my armies, but this is mainly due to the fact I'm better off with pods (which do their job automatically), and because the units that can fit in rhinos tend to be bad. But yes, if you're going to take rhinos or razorbacks, you take a ton of tanks or not at all. The problem with this strategy for marines, is their tanks are, relative to other codex choices, inferior. This makes armor saturation a concept that weakens your army just by selecting it.

2) You can advance behind cover, or pop smoke, but that's just a 5+ save on a tank that has 3HP and 11 AV. For the record, scat bikers do 4 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/3 HP, 2/3 get through for 16/27 HP per scat biker. A squad costing just over 120 points will eliminate a rhino in cover. Without cover it does become worse (8/9), so it takes about one additional biker to do the job. Bikers aren't dedicated anti tank...units that are will remove a rhino without trying. Other transports are tougher, faster, or are more killy.

3) Predators and Vindicators have terrible side armor. Against a force that is even slightly mobile (like say Tau or Eldar), you are exposing your more expensive, and more threatening, tanks to enemy fire to protect a unit that most likely isn't as good. For a vindicator, true, you have to move forward. Your goal with a vindicator against a good player is to get 2 shots against a high valued target and earn your points back. Predators tend to hug the back of the field and fire down lanes though. Rarely do you want them advancing. They'll also slow the rhinos down, or not fire. A bad move, IMO. In addition to this, against necrons, your better more expensive tanks are basically rhinos with one additional HP. You don't want them taking shots at all at vindis or preds. You're better off screening these choices with empty rhinos.

4) Rhinos and the troops they tend to carry aren't scary. Most units from competitive dexes can afford to ignore your transports and terrible marines will targetting cents, bikers, stern guard, or other units that are actually able to do some damage. This is radically different from a wave serpent, which is scary in its own right regardless of what it carries, or a chimera, which can at least do some damage. Granted, against IG, I still wouldn't target a chimera first, but I would target it before I'd target a rhino.


This is why people are saying that those that make rhinos work probably don't play in competitive metas. Eldar, Tau, Necrons, AdMech, Daemons, Nids FMC, and Marines don't care about rhinos. Less competitive choices like marines built differently, horde nids, orks, IG, sisters are a little more frightened of marines or have issues removing mass AV 11 (DE especially fall into this latter category).

What is a distraction fex? Is that when you take a very expensive MC who does nothing until turn 4 because he's slow? Or is this from the era when fexes were actually good choices?

The only problem with buffing the rhino right now, even if you adjusted the point cost to match, is that us Space Marine players still get them for free in a Gladius double-demi company.

Then again that is more of an issue with the formation then it is with the rhino right now.

The Rhino has weak armour because it isn't meant to be a heavily armoured transport. It's meant to transport Marines around while keeping them safe from small arms fire and other anti-infantry weapons. It has no firepower because it relies on its passengers for firepower i.e. two shooting out the top hatch. The most firepower you will get goes to the Chaos Rhino, which can take a combi-melta and havoc launcher for less than a razorback and have two melta/plasmaguns firing out the top.

The problem is the amount of S6/7 and AP3/2 that permeates the current game. It's a lot easier these days to kill metal boxes. However, all of those same weapons kill Marines even faster. Keep the Rhino in cover and remember to use smoke, and it could make it to the objective. If you want speed, take a Drop Pod. If you want protection, invest in a Land Raider. If you just want to get from point A to point B while keeping MEQ alive and doing it on the cheap, the Rhino is your best bet.

The secret to keeping Rhinos alive, as others have pointed out, is to use cover and have something scarier for your opponent to shoot at. A Vindicator or Maulerfiend is much more dangerous than a simple metal box. Why shoot the metal box when there are bigger priority targets to shoot?

Well, there you have it folks, you try to advise the use of actual tactics and they just cannot take it.

So, I expect to see plenty of unsupported Rhinos (or should that be RH1N0?) advancing in the open in the future

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, there you have it folks, you try to advise the use of actual tactics and they just cannot take it.

So, I expect to see plenty of unsupported Rhinos (or should that be RH1N0?) advancing in the open in the future

I'll be sure to use the 'tactics' excuse the next time I see someone say Ogryns or Rough Riders are terrible.

Rough Riders for example are really tough for their price - the enemy shoots at your more threatening Chimeras instead and look, not a single Rough Rider died! Amazing!

Seriously though, 'L2P' is and will continue to be a flawed argument.

Rough riders are just human soldiers on horses. Of course they aren't supposed to be out on the battlefield further than your tanks.

The thing is these butt hurt Imperial Guard players think their mounted assault troops are supposed to advancing towards the enemy without using cover and/or butthurt when their cardboard armored troops are blown to hell. Why, when you have Baneblades and Leman Russes, do you choose to advance your Calvary on their own? Why not throw a Baneblade out there and put it in front of the Rough Riders?

Why are such basic tactics as Calvary charges and distraction carnifex so hard to understand?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, there you have it folks, you try to advise the use of actual tactics and they just cannot take it.

So, I expect to see plenty of unsupported Rhinos (or should that be RH1N0?) advancing in the open in the future

I'll be sure to use the 'tactics' excuse the next time I see someone say Ogryns or Rough Riders are terrible.

Rough Riders for example are really tough for their price - the enemy shoots at your more threatening Chimeras instead and look, not a single Rough Rider died! Amazing!

Seriously though, 'L2P' is and will continue to be a flawed argument.

Difference:

The Rough Riders re an overpriced CC unit without the rules or gear to let them get close enough to use their one shot CC weapon and are universally regarded as terribly gak.

The Rhino is an amazingly well priced Armoured Personal Carrier which does its job extremely well but for some reason some people expect it to be packing the kind of survivability and firepower commonly seen on a Main Battle Tank.

So no, in this case the L2P attitude is needed. I would gladly trade my Chimeras for Rhino's. I might be able to withstand the enemies dirt cheap basic infantry on the flanks for a start and my transports would no longer cost more than they where worth.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Rhino is an amazingly well priced Armoured Personal Carrier which does its job extremely well but for some reason some people expect it to be packing the kind of survivability and firepower commonly seen on a Main Battle Tank.

I dunno, from your IG thread you seem to want 14/13/12 with 4 HP as your main battle tank, and I do not think anyone has argued for a 14/13/12 4 HP Rhino!

So no, in this case the L2P attitude is needed.

The L2P attitude is never needed.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Rhino is an amazingly well priced Armoured Personal Carrier which does its job extremely well but for some reason some people expect it to be packing the kind of survivability and firepower commonly seen on a Main Battle Tank.

I dunno, from your IG thread you seem to want 14/13/12 with 4 HP as your main battle tank, and I do not think anyone has argued for a 14/13/12 4 HP Rhino!

Gee, that could be something to do with the Leman Russ being a (underperforming) Main Battle Tank (note the difference) that currently has the exact same HP as your light APC (not a main battle tank) and a slight issue of being destroyed when the enemy even looks at it.
Anyway, the current leaning is for AV 14/13/11 actually though the suggestions for RAV 12 on the close quarters variants is justefied by the way you Marines and the other xenos forces out there spam Krak and Melta Bombs. I mean, even if we castle do you know how easy it is to get close and just assault those tanks.... Assuming they where not graved/glanced to death first!

And there was a call a few pages back for Rhinos and indeed all SM vehicles to have an option to gain more armour... Capping out at 14 I believe.

Let's consider our language and it's appropriateness for a family friendly forum, thanks, motyak

I think an element of what distinguishes Rhinos from Chimeras is that Rhinos and their derivatives can be carried by Thunderhawk transports; that requires them to have certain design elements that the Chimera don't have. The reduced armor and the use of more exotic materials when loaded with marines is probably lighter than a Chimera comparably loaded even if it could some how be loaded on a Thunderhawk transporter. Rhino's are also air tight and can travel through a vacuum, which means having one loaded with troops for atmospheric entry isn't as problematic; even though marines power armor is similarly capable a vehicle unsuitable to atmospheric entry would be many many times more prone to catastrophic failure.

Its important to consider that a space marine in power armor, depending on the mark of armor, can weigh as much as 2000lbs. So without consideration to their weapons you're talking about needing a transport that is stripped down enough to carry 20,000lbs of marines. To give that perspective the real life vehicles that are most similar to a Rhino weigh about 24,000lbs and can only carry an additional 3000lbs of troops and weapons. That said the Chimera being more conventional probably can't carry the weight of a full squad of space marines.

Between the Rhino and Land raider you have two extremes... A rhino being the most stripped down vehicle capable of moving that kind of weight and then you have the Land Raider as a design that doesn't compromise on armor or weight to achieve that capability but instead relies on an engine that much larger.

Anyone who finds rhinos too fragile needs to spend a few games playing with trukks and DE raiders. When half your mobile force ends up wrecked mid field, your going to wish you had the AV11 and closed top.

Now try going second.... Now half your force is walking from your table edge.

My chaos still loves their rhinos. Yeah warp amps help with the assault, and for some reason nobody ignores my Lucius + noise champion toting rhino the second game in a row.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Rough riders are just human soldiers on horses. Of course they aren't supposed to be out on the battlefield further than your tanks.

The thing is these butt hurt Imperial Guard players think their mounted assault troops are supposed to advancing towards the enemy without using cover and/or butthurt when their cardboard armored troops are blown to hell. Why, when you have Baneblades and Leman Russes, do you choose to advance your Calvary on their own? Why not throw a Baneblade out there and put it in front of the Rough Riders?

Why are such basic tactics as Calvary charges and distraction carnifex so hard to understand?

Baneblades are just baneblades. Of course they're aren't supposed to be out on the battle field unsupported.

The thing is these butt hurt baneblade players think their baneblades are meant to be advancing towards the enemy without using cover and/or butthurt when their baneblade armoured baneblades are blown to hell. Why, when you have warhounds and warlords, do you choose to advance your baneblades on their own? Why not throw a warlord out there and put it in front of the baneblades?

Why are such tactics as baneblades and distraction titans so hard to understand?

 Jayden63 wrote:
Anyone who finds rhinos too fragile needs to spend a few games playing with trukks and DE raiders. When half your mobile force ends up wrecked mid field, your going to wish you had the AV11 and closed top.

Now try going second.... Now half your force is walking from your table edge.

My chaos still loves their rhinos. Yeah warp amps help with the assault, and for some reason nobody ignores my Lucius + noise champion toting rhino the second game in a row.

Except... that is exactly what happens to Rhinos... because they are AV11 and closed top...

I remember in 4th and early 5th when rhinos were 50 points and worth every point. I think that hull points have really killed the use of lightly armored transports especially when coupled with the increased proliferation of mid strength high rate of fire weapons.

I say blame the edition, not the vehicle. They used to do exactly what people currently wish they could do. And its not like their stats have changed.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Rhino is an amazingly well priced Armoured Personal Carrier which does its job extremely well but for some reason some people expect it to be packing the kind of survivability and firepower commonly seen on a Main Battle Tank.

I dunno, from your IG thread you seem to want 14/13/12 with 4 HP as your main battle tank, and I do not think anyone has argued for a 14/13/12 4 HP Rhino!

Gee, that could be something to do with the Leman Russ being a (underperforming) Main Battle Tank (note the difference) that currently has the exact same HP as your light APC (not a main battle tank) and a slight issue of being destroyed when the enemy even looks at it.

I fail to see how front armor 14 is being destroyed when someone looks at it. It's the highest armor in the game, and with their long range guns, you can deploy them in cover. I don't see how you can call the rhino usable but can't keep the Russ alive...are you moving it forward, like you suggested with the predator? Because that's a bad idea, as was stated when you suggested doing so with Marines.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Anyway, the current leaning is for AV 14/13/11 actually though the suggestions for RAV 12 on the close quarters variants is justefied by the way you Marines and the other xenos forces out there spam Krak and Melta Bombs. I mean, even if we castle do you know how easy it is to get close and just assault those tanks.... Assuming they where not graved/glanced to death first!

Current leaning? From whom?
It's not easy to get close and assault IG unless you are a flyer. The IG flyer nerfs really hurt their ability to deal with FMCs, but otherwise IG still put out a good volume of anti infantry shots. I could see you having problems against a wraith based cron army, but well, welcome to the game? Every faction has that issue.
How is an enemy reaching CC? I can see grav weapons, D weapons, and gauss weapons being an issue, but CC marines? Are they using the BA deep striking formation? Because your counter punch should be strong enough to wipe them unless you are deploying oddly.




For the record, ignoring someone's counter points with what is essentially "I CANT EVEN" doesn't help your argument. At all.

Jayden63,
Agreed, Hull Points are crippling Vehicles more then anything else.

I don't even think the high-Strength Weapon spam is that much to blame, though it definitely compounds the problem. Hull Points ensuring Vehicles do not even get a slither of a chance all by their lonesome. If the Vehicle is not immune to Strength 6 or Below, the only roll it will serve is to taxi Units to the front line as fast as possible, before distracting a few shots away from said Unit for a Turn or two if it is lucky enough to have Hull Points left by then. This isn't about the Rhino's either, it is just the most common Transport Vehicle so it stands to reason that law-of-averages makes it seem the worse off.

I go as far as to say the inclusion of Hull Points has also weakened Anti-Tank Weapons, though the effect is not as heavily seen.

No longer do we need to even look at the Armour Piercing value on a Weapon to determine if it would be good at taking out Vehicles. An increased chance destroy the Vehicle, a weapon or its mobility is simply not required if we can ensure it is wrecked within a handful of shots anyway. All we need to ensure is the Weapon has enough Strength to Glance or Penetrate most Vehicles, then look to see if it has enough Shots to ensure the odds no longer matter. After all, I know which one I would take to destroy a Vehicle if I needed to choose between a single S:9 AP:2 shot, or two S:8 AP:4 shots.

If we would remove hull points, vehicles would be good again.

No, the real problem is they didn't give vehicles enough hull points.

They should really double all hull points on all vehicles to make it work better.

Because space marines are the undesputed masters of aerial/orbital insertion.

Once, long ago GW imagined that SMs all made it to the battlefield rapidly via drop pod or thunderbird. A Dpod is the fastest, but denys you conventional transportation later. To get a squad of marines into battle with a transport requires a thunderhawk. However even the mighty thunderhawk cant drop a av 13-13-13 vehicle from space full of SMs at the speeds necessary to avoid anti air threats. And so it is that a thunderhawk carrys (in the old fluff at least) 2 rhinos full of marines. Light, dependable Rhinos.

This is in fact why SM vehicles are so lightly armoured. The need for rapid, aerial transport requires a lighter vehicle. SMs full auto, in your face style of warfare allows for this...in the fluff. When you are amidst the enemy they are reluctant to fire their heaviest weapons for fear of hitting their own.

These fearsome, shock & awe style deployments were NEVER backed up on the table. The thunderhawk was never produced, outside of FW & a whimsical all metal version for a one off run. The low av of Rhinos is now a comical relic of the early 1990's. They tried to make it a real thing with the 5th edition BAs book by giving LRs deep strike. It was supposed to be a representation of rapid, orbital insertion of a LR via the heavy lifter version of the thunderhawk. You can see the FW model of it on their web site. Other than that i cant remember any attempt to represent the orbital deployment of SM transports.

P.S. Sorry if this had already been said. I couldn't be bothered to read all 6 pages.

 n0t_u wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Rough riders are just human soldiers on horses. Of course they aren't supposed to be out on the battlefield further than your tanks.

The thing is these butt hurt Imperial Guard players think their mounted assault troops are supposed to advancing towards the enemy without using cover and/or butthurt when their cardboard armored troops are blown to hell. Why, when you have Baneblades and Leman Russes, do you choose to advance your Calvary on their own? Why not throw a Baneblade out there and put it in front of the Rough Riders?

Why are such basic tactics as Calvary charges and distraction carnifex so hard to understand?

Baneblades are just baneblades. Of course they're aren't supposed to be out on the battle field unsupported.

The thing is these butt hurt baneblade players think their baneblades are meant to be advancing towards the enemy without using cover and/or butthurt when their baneblade armoured baneblades are blown to hell. Why, when you have warhounds and warlords, do you choose to advance your baneblades on their own? Why not throw a warlord out there and put it in front of the baneblades?

Why are such tactics as baneblades and distraction titans so hard to understand?

Well, yes, even dreadfully terrible units like Baneblades survive well if you provide the enemy with better units to shoot at.

I am not sure how that makes the Baneblade any tougher, though...

If the enemy decides to ignore those Warhound Titans (single Turbo Lasersreally are not that scary) then the Baneblades are dead meat.

Why not throw a warlord out there and put it in front of the baneblades?

So that when they are destroyed, they blow up the Baneblade?

Why are such tactics as baneblades and distraction titans so hard to understand?

Given your constant assertions that the Baneblade is fine for its points and everyone else just sucks, I am not sure if you read the OP. The problem wasnt that Baneblades are bad for their cost-they are not. They are dirt cheap.

The problem was simply that they are too fragile in general, independent of points costs. (which does mean paying for it is appropriate, and before you once more go 'okay I want rear armour 14 on my Rhinos for 5 points. It is not the tpic of thread. Go make a Rhino thread if you want to buff them. Although, there is one...)

My point that I am trying to make here is that the Master of Ordinance's argument is silly because you can swap out "Rhino" for any unit that is perceived to be underperforming. Sure, you can make Rhinos last longer by putting your tanks out in front of it. But that isn't the job of the APC or the MBT. Rhinos should be able to get a Marine squad reliably where they need to go in a expedient manner.

Akiasura wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Rhino is an amazingly well priced Armoured Personal Carrier which does its job extremely well but for some reason some people expect it to be packing the kind of survivability and firepower commonly seen on a Main Battle Tank.

I dunno, from your IG thread you seem to want 14/13/12 with 4 HP as your main battle tank, and I do not think anyone has argued for a 14/13/12 4 HP Rhino!

Gee, that could be something to do with the Leman Russ being a (underperforming) Main Battle Tank (note the difference) that currently has the exact same HP as your light APC (not a main battle tank) and a slight issue of being destroyed when the enemy even looks at it.

I fail to see how front armor 14 is being destroyed when someone looks at it. It's the highest armor in the game, and with their long range guns, you can deploy them in cover. I don't see how you can call the rhino usable but can't keep the Russ alive...are you moving it forward, like you suggested with the predator? Because that's a bad idea, as was stated when you suggested doing so with Marines.

Maybe but there are things such as Drop Pods and Deep Strike, all of which can result in nasty things happening, especially when your flank armour 13 and rear armour 10.
Besides advancing with a Leman Russ is rarely ever something that you want to do. It is big, it is expensive and even un upgraded it is somewhere in the region of 8% of your points.
The Predator, un upgraded, is twice as fast, can boost and costs only 5% of your points. Dont want to use one? Use a Vindicator.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Anyway, the current leaning is for AV 14/13/11 actually though the suggestions for RAV 12 on the close quarters variants is justefied by the way you Marines and the other xenos forces out there spam Krak and Melta Bombs. I mean, even if we castle do you know how easy it is to get close and just assault those tanks.... Assuming they where not graved/glanced to death first!

Current leaning? From whom?
It's not easy to get close and assault IG unless you are a flyer. The IG flyer nerfs really hurt their ability to deal with FMCs, but otherwise IG still put out a good volume of anti infantry shots. I could see you having problems against a wraith based cron army, but well, welcome to the game? Every faction has that issue.
How is an enemy reaching CC? I can see grav weapons, D weapons, and gauss weapons being an issue, but CC marines? Are they using the BA deep striking formation? Because your counter punch should be strong enough to wipe them unless you are deploying oddly.


For the record, ignoring someone's counter points with what is essentially "I CANT EVEN" doesn't help your argument. At all.

Deepstrike. Drop Pod. Fast moving transports. Use of cover.

All of these things can get you close to an IG army very fast, especially since we dont actually put out as much firepower as we used too.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
My point that I am trying to make here is that the Master of Ordinance's argument is silly because you can swap out "Rhino" for any unit that is perceived to be underperforming. Sure, you can make Rhinos last longer by putting your tanks out in front of it. But that isn't the job of the APC or the MBT. Rhinos should be able to get a Marine squad reliably where they need to go in a expedient manner.

Up to the point where I read this, I was completely unsure of just who you were making fun of.

 Red Marine wrote:

These fearsome, shock & awe style deployments were NEVER backed up on the table. The thunderhawk was never produced, outside of FW & a whimsical all metal version for a one off run.

Why does the thunderhawk have to be a model? I assume sometimes it just drops off its marines and then flies away. A good argument for giving rhinos the ability to deep strike, but I'm still not convinced that rhinos need better armor. Especially when they don't cost points anymore.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Rhino is an amazingly well priced Armoured Personal Carrier which does its job extremely well but for some reason some people expect it to be packing the kind of survivability and firepower commonly seen on a Main Battle Tank.

I dunno, from your IG thread you seem to want 14/13/12 with 4 HP as your main battle tank, and I do not think anyone has argued for a 14/13/12 4 HP Rhino!

Gee, that could be something to do with the Leman Russ being a (underperforming) Main Battle Tank (note the difference) that currently has the exact same HP as your light APC (not a main battle tank) and a slight issue of being destroyed when the enemy even looks at it.

I fail to see how front armor 14 is being destroyed when someone looks at it. It's the highest armor in the game, and with their long range guns, you can deploy them in cover. I don't see how you can call the rhino usable but can't keep the Russ alive...are you moving it forward, like you suggested with the predator? Because that's a bad idea, as was stated when you suggested doing so with Marines.

Maybe but there are things such as Drop Pods and Deep Strike, all of which can result in nasty things happening, especially when your flank armour 13 and rear armour 10.

True, but units that can deep strike are more expensive then most of the tanks you can take in IG (10 marines with all the trimmings for anti-tank are ~200 points). So, you should outnumber them squad for squad. Most marine players will only be dropping 2-3 pods in on the first turn regardless.
In addition to this, if facing against a drop pod/deep strike list, you can deploy so reaching your rear armor in double tap range is extremely difficult for the marine player. You say flank armor 13 like its a bad thing. It's not. 6 plasma shots will not cause enough HP's to kill a tank against side armor 13.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Besides advancing with a Leman Russ is rarely ever something that you want to do. It is big, it is expensive and even un upgraded it is somewhere in the region of 8% of your points.
The Predator, un upgraded, is twice as fast, can boost and costs only 5% of your points. Dont want to use one? Use a Vindicator.

I was not the one suggesting advancing your long range armed tanks, you did that. A predator is roughly the same size as the LBRT (slightly smaller) but this doesn't make a big deal. If they are doing to flank via deep strike, drop pod, or insane speed a slightly larger tank doesn't matter.
The Predator isn't twice as fast unless you are talking about Blood Angels. The other...4?...factions that can take them have them at roughly the same speed. Their point cost relative to the LBRT is dependent on the weapons picked.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Anyway, the current leaning is for AV 14/13/11 actually though the suggestions for RAV 12 on the close quarters variants is justefied by the way you Marines and the other xenos forces out there spam Krak and Melta Bombs. I mean, even if we castle do you know how easy it is to get close and just assault those tanks.... Assuming they where not graved/glanced to death first!

Current leaning? From whom?
It's not easy to get close and assault IG unless you are a flyer. The IG flyer nerfs really hurt their ability to deal with FMCs, but otherwise IG still put out a good volume of anti infantry shots. I could see you having problems against a wraith based cron army, but well, welcome to the game? Every faction has that issue.
How is an enemy reaching CC? I can see grav weapons, D weapons, and gauss weapons being an issue, but CC marines? Are they using the BA deep striking formation? Because your counter punch should be strong enough to wipe them unless you are deploying oddly.


For the record, ignoring someone's counter points with what is essentially "I CANT EVEN" doesn't help your argument. At all.

Deepstrike. Drop Pod. Fast moving transports. Use of cover.

All of these things can get you close to an IG army very fast, especially since we dont actually put out as much firepower as we used too.

None of those things allow you to assault an IG army, which is what you suggested was killing your tanks.
IG puts out about the same firepower as always. Their troops cost the same, the cost of (most) of their tanks stayed the same. They have div now. Everyone else got stronger, which means relatively IG are no longer as good, but I'm not aware of any major nerfs to their firepower.

If deepstriking/podding is wiping out tanks left and right I'm thinking you are deploying poorly.

Man, whenever I used Deep Strike to get into an IG player's lines, my squads were killed to a man before assault could happen.

I really wish I was playing Master of Ordinance during that time, because they seem to give the courtesy of letting an army survive long enough to assault.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, there you have it folks, you try to advise the use of actual tactics and they just cannot take it.

So, I expect to see plenty of unsupported Rhinos (or should that be RH1N0?) advancing in the open in the future

I'll be sure to use the 'tactics' excuse the next time I see someone say Ogryns or Rough Riders are terrible.

Rough Riders for example are really tough for their price - the enemy shoots at your more threatening Chimeras instead and look, not a single Rough Rider died! Amazing!

Seriously though, 'L2P' is and will continue to be a flawed argument.

Difference:

The Rough Riders re an overpriced CC unit without the rules or gear to let them get close enough to use their one shot CC weapon and are universally regarded as terribly gak.

The Rhino is an amazingly well priced Armoured Personal Carrier which does its job extremely well but for some reason some people expect it to be packing the kind of survivability and firepower commonly seen on a Main Battle Tank.

So no, in this case the L2P attitude is needed. I would gladly trade my Chimeras for Rhino's. I might be able to withstand the enemies dirt cheap basic infantry on the flanks for a start and my transports would no longer cost more than they where worth.

Well I got good news for you: You can ally in a Flesh Tearers detachment for 6 Rhinos.
Except nobody is doing that and they're buying Drop Pods. If Rhinos were REALLY that good that their job, that wouldn't happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Anyone who finds rhinos too fragile needs to spend a few games playing with trukks and DE raiders. When half your mobile force ends up wrecked mid field, your going to wish you had the AV11 and closed top.

Now try going second.... Now half your force is walking from your table edge.

My chaos still loves their rhinos. Yeah warp amps help with the assault, and for some reason nobody ignores my Lucius + noise champion toting rhino the second game in a row.

I know nothing of Trukks, but I'd gladly take the Raider over a Rhino. A few more points grants me Open Topped and a skimmer, and I can buy upgrades to make it slightly more durable.
The benefits of open topped far outweigh the negatives.

As long as skyhammer is a thing, there is no way rhinos will ever be desirable. You could buff them by reducing the points cost and making them fast assault vehicles, but pods would still be the way to go. Skyhammer simply bypasses all of the fundamental drawbacks of using transports and deep striking.

Armor is irrelevant. The rhino could be indestructible and it still wouldn't be worth taking because it puts your squad out of action for an entire turn. They get out, they can't shoot at full potential, they can't charge, and they're standing around in the breeze while the enemy gets to shoot at them. When you can have skyhammer pods and free gladius razorbacks, does the rhino serve any purpose at all?

Killsmith wrote:

 Red Marine wrote:

These fearsome, shock & awe style deployments were NEVER backed up on the table. The thunderhawk was never produced, outside of FW & a whimsical all metal version for a one off run.

Why does the thunderhawk have to be a model? I assume sometimes it just drops off its marines and then flies away. A good argument for giving rhinos the ability to deep strike, but I'm still not convinced that rhinos need better armor. Especially when they don't cost points anymore.

It doesnt necessarily need a model to have the effect of the model alone represented on the table. But it does go to your 2nd sentence. The thunderhawk is supossed to stay on site providing close air support. And a thunderhawk has tons of heavy weapons & missiles, which means the SMs didn't really need the heavy armor.

I don't think the rhino needs more armor either, except maybe 1 more in the rear (thats what she said!). Its super cheap & so are its upgrades. It does its job, especially with the squads grav cannon shooting out the side.

Wakka wakka wakka

Given your constant assertions that the Rhino is fine for its points and everyone else just sucks, I am not sure if you read the OP. The problem wasn't that Rhinos are bad for their cost - they are not. They are dirt cheap.
The problem was simply that they are too fragile in general, independent of points cost (which does mean paying for it is appropriate, and before you once more go 'okay I want rear armour 14 on my Russes for 5 points', it is not the topic of the thread. Go make a Russ thread if you want to buff them. Although, there is one....)

@Ashiraya, thanks for helping me clearing my thoughts out . I say it again, I was not here to suggest Rhino buffs or to argue about the IG armour. Master Of Ordnance seems to be ^pretty hot about this but he/she's the one who bring it to this thread.... with no kind of any relevance at all IMO.

That being said :

What are you on about? The Rhino is amazing for what it costs. 35 points is buying you a safe metal box to put your Marines in and scoot them forwards in a way that prevents them from being targeted by all the nasty things out there. If you want them to survive then dont try to use them as assault vehicles. Stick them behind your tanks and advance in an armoured column.
If you want bad then try the Chimera. 65 points buys you a BS3 IFV which can be glanced to death by basic infantry shooting its flank. And no those two heavy weapons do not make up for this. At least your Rhino is immune to flank attacks for the most part.
Besides, only one army has S5 on its basic small arms and that is that Tau.

@MasterOf Ordinance. What I was about was 1/ understand from a fluff perspective why Rhino armour is what it is and 2/ understand better the true value of Rhino according to the community. I'm not here to start a war between need buff/don't need buff or Chimera vs Rhino. I used this IFV because I play it since quite a bit of time.

Yes, only Tau have S5 standard guns but given the cost and the high availability of weapons like Scatlas, multilasers, HB, big shootas and stuff like these, your beloved Rhinos have lost some usefulness, like it or not. Many SM tools are now better to avoid the aforementioned weapons, and people keep pointing them to you.

I hope your response will not be censored by mods this time

I've been thinking about it, and don't think that the Rhino actually belongs on the tabletop outside of scenario gaming.

It seems that in the fluff its role is to transport marines TO the battlefield, not around the battlefield. It doesn't make sense to have them driving around trying to grab objectives when they are not designed to take and hold objectives or even weather enemy fire that well.

Maybe Rhinos should instead be 35pt upgrades to give a unit Scout, representing that they were able to get to the battlefield quicker.

Or, as I said, used for scenarios where the Rhino convoy is ambushed or the Rhino users are using them in a combat role out of sheer desperation.


tl;dr: Really from this thread it sounds like a Rhino is a support vehicle that doesn't belong on the battlefield at all.

I predominantly use my Rhinos when I play Chaos marines and they are worth every point. I try to have 2 for every three units that can take them. Are they relatively fragile? -Yes, but they are also so cheap they can always make their points back. When I use Rhinos I think of them almost as one big extra model in the squad of marines. If there were a marine character that allowed a squad to move faster and shielded them from attacks for an extra 35pts, I don't think anyone would question their worth.

A rhino even if destroyed right off the bat turn 1, is one turn where your enemy cannot target the embarked unit. People pay more points to improve armor saves on infantry affording less certainty for more points.

You have to consider different tactics in the use of armored vehicles. When real life militaries were using Combat taxis in the style of what the rhino imitates they were more closely supported by medium and light tanks. The modern demands for greater fire power and armor has largely come from the need for units to spread out over larger areas where there support has to cover that larger distance to support. That lesson is applicable here: use Rhinos by themselves and they will die. Closely support them with heavier armored vehicles and the things likely to hurt a rhino will likely be directed at the other vehicle.

I have used my Rhinos using the LRDG style doctrines with my Space Wolves.
10 Wolves with two Plasma-Guns and run them along the Flanks [or if I using the 'Wolves Unleashed truly outflank].
Run them using as much cover as possible and if I got a shot with the two Plasma Guns take it, if not Move Flat Out and continue to Flank. If I need more Cover I pop Smoke. By turn two I usually have 2-3 of the starting 4-6 in their Backfield.