Assuming we get a Sisters of Battle, Adepta Sororitas, or Adeptus Ministorum codex (IE, not deleted or merged), in what direction would you prefer to see Sisters taken?
I have always thought of Sisters as a highly competent military-religious force, akin to the Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller. Over the years, I've seen that others have thought of them as fighting closer to crazed berserkers, others prefer to focus on the union between Sisters and Inquisition or Sisters and Ecclesiarchy, adding in a sort of "freak show army" appeal. Some want to see Sisters changed to become more of a horde army (a couple people even advocating that they should los their 3+ save for some reason), while others want to see them get stronger and more elite, and others want to try to carefully maintain the current balance. The level of how specialized they are, vs how much they should be able to adapt to different situations. How much variety they should have, vs how much homogeneity they should have.
If you were to advise on writing their codex, how would you advocate it be done?
Swastakowey wrote: More male soldiers. I like the holy look, hate the female look.
I know that some people feel the need to troll and attempt to drag the topic off topic, but I'd really appreciate that you take comments like that to some other thread.
Swastakowey wrote: More male soldiers. I like the holy look, hate the female look.
I know that some people feel the need to troll and attempt to drag the topic off topic, but I'd really appreciate that you take comments like that to some other thread.
Ummm, no. Did you not read the rest of my suggestions?
I am allowed to think what I want, cheers.
I like the holy look, just wish they weren't a creepy cult of women. No harm there.
I'd love to see more Acts of Faith, maybe something like SM chapter tactics (though I say this about every Codex), more unit types, more unique Sisters tanks, maybe a special type of gun that only the Sisters get (like SM and graviton... how amazing would it be to give Sororitas the Volkite weaponry from 30k?), and probably a general across-the-board points reduction.
Oh, and multi-part plastic kits. I would play Sisters in a heartbeat if they had multi-part plastic kits.
Swastakowey wrote: I like the holy look, just wish they weren't a creepy cult of women. No harm there.
They're called the Sisters of Battle, not some other nonsense. There's even an amusing fluff reason for an all-female standing army. Saying this is like asking for female Space Marines or saying "I really like the wraithbone look of the Eldar, but I hate that they're vaguely elvish. Let's give them models that look like space dwarves," or something else equally absurd. Don't try to cloak your trolling in "it's just my opinion, man." Not even going to address your "creepy women" comment.
i think they should be rolled into the militarium tempestus codex as the schole progenium codex which would grant the sisters access to storm troopers, withch hunters, and limited access to vindicare temple assassins. id explain this away in the rules that depending on weather my warlord has the sisters faction or the tempestus faction units with the other faction that were troops choices became elites and you lost the ability to buy their lords of war/hq's
its fluffy that units from the schola would work together and it allows those armies to expand without re-inventing the wheel here. you could even include a base set of relics for everyone to pick from (omitting assassins) and then putting out say 2 unique relics if you base your army on a tempestus warlord or a sisters hq/witch hunter.
id probably give them access to drop pods and land raiders because its accurate to all the modern lore for them such as in say "stormcaller" or "SoB:tempestus", id probably also look at giving them a flyer maybe reinvent the aquila lander or simply add in the lightning
id probably consider updating the dominions to get plasma cannons and missles
seraphim are fine they really need a points adjustment
sisters of battle maybe should be allowed to swap out their bolters from storm bolters for 1ppm i think that would be a cool way to make them stand apart from space marine units
acts of faith would become an army wide blessing that is permanent and triggered like the waaagh however it grants one buff depending on the turn executed so say on t1 you get scout, t2 you get fear (vehicles grant fearless in a 3" aoe), t3 is furious charge (vehicles get twin linked shooting), t4 is fnp (vehicles get a 6+invul), t5 makes all your meltas and flamers torrent weapons, and t6 grants your army EW until the end of t7 in a sense the idea is building your army around a particular point in the game be that turn 3 or turn 1, or even haning on till turn 6 and gambling on that. id probably grant celestine a special benefit as a LoW that if she is taken in the primary detachment she lets you drop a second act of faith and that jakobus does the same thing except he has to roll a d6 at the start of the game and on a 4+ he gets a second activation or on a 3- he infers an additional flat benefit upon trigger like say adamantium will
this also solves the issue of the tempestus basically having no models, the sisters out of new ideas, and the two of them not having a codex sold on the shelf in the store like everyone else because there isnt enough material to justify a book for either.
I would keep almost everything basically the same, to be honest.
Changes:
Acts of Faith are one use, army wide buffs (but still come from the source unit, but can only use it once even if you have multiple of that unit) that are stronger based on how many characters have martyred (died). I want to say based on the number of “faithful” units on the table but that seems too close to Cult Mechanicus... Maybe a combination of both? # of units + martyrs from the previous turn?
Add an Act of Faith that summons a Living Saint.
Repentia & Penitent Engines get a 5+ invulnerable save from Shield of Faith.
Celestians get access to power weapons at the same cost as Vanguard Veterans. And can buy hand flamers. edit: and can buy combi-flamers/meltas! Probably instead of hand flamers.
Canoness needs some sort of buff, but not sure what I would give her. Maybe she *doesn’t* need a buff and I am just trying to imagine her too much like a Space Marine captain.
And Formations, of course!
The Decurion style deal which gives units within the ability to use their Acts of Faith 2x per game.
One formation of a Cannoness, a command squad, a a unit of Celestians, and 2 units of battle sisters. This would be the Core formation and would allow them to use the Living Saint summoning AoF.
3-5 Retributors. Makes them Relentless for a turn whenever an Act of Faith is used.
3 Exorcists. Allows them to re-roll the number of missile attacks they make.
3-5 Seraphim. Allows them to deep strike without scatter and all arrive at once.
3-5 units of Repentia and Penitent Engines in any combination. Allows them to make a single attack immediately when they are killed in combat. Penitent Engines make d3 attacks when killed.
1 Living Saint. Deep strikes without scatter. Thinking about some kind of morale buff the turn she arrives? All units instantly rally, or become fearless or stubborn or something.
I don’t think that their needs to be formations for Celestians, but there might be justification for a Dominion formation... not sure what it would do, though.
Swastakowey wrote: I like the holy look, just wish they weren't a creepy cult of women. No harm there.
They're called the Sisters of Battle, not some other nonsense. There's even an amusing fluff reason for an all-female standing army. Saying this is like asking for female Space Marines or saying "I really like the wraithbone look of the Eldar, but I hate that they're vaguely elvish. Let's give them models that look like space dwarves," or something else equally absurd. Don't try to cloak your trolling in "it's just my opinion, man." Not even going to address your "creepy women" comment.
What? They used to have malitia in there and other cool stuff like storm troopers etc. Back when I got into them anyway.
I can not like an aspect of a faction... no need to be hateful. I just want some cool, holy and normal soldiers with glorious armour and saints etc. To me that would be cool. An updated codex which has holy warriors of the imperium would be awesome and offer more variety. I don't dig the creepy female cult thing they have going on (I also don't dig the creepy male cult that Storm Troopers have going on, so don't try pull out the sexist card).
I think if they redid sisters the best thing to do would have a book with all the minor imperial factions now I think about it. Roll it into one big armies of the imperium, have cool stuff from all with the options to mix and match from certain groups.
ionusx wrote: i think they should be rolled into the militarium tempestus codex as the schole progenium codex which would grant the sisters access to storm troopers, withch hunters, and limited access to vindicare temple assassins. id explain this away in the rules that depending on weather my warlord has the sisters faction or the tempestus faction units with the other faction that were troops choices became elites and you lost the ability to buy their lords of war/hq's
its fluffy that units from the schola would work together and it allows those armies to expand without re-inventing the wheel here. you could even include a base set of relics for everyone to pick from (omitting assassins) and then putting out say 2 unique relics if you base your army on a tempestus warlord or a sisters hq/witch hunter.
id probably give them access to drop pods and land raiders because its accurate to all the modern lore for them such as in say "stormcaller" or "SoB:tempestus", id probably also look at giving them a flyer maybe reinvent the aquila lander or simply add in the lightning
id probably consider updating the dominions to get plasma cannons and missles
seraphim are fine they really need a points adjustment
sisters of battle maybe should be allowed to swap out their bolters from storm bolters for 1ppm i think that would be a cool way to make them stand apart from space marine units
acts of faith would become an army wide blessing that is permanent and triggered like the waaagh however it grants one buff depending on the turn executed so say on t1 you get scout, t2 you get fear (vehicles grant fearless in a 3" aoe), t3 is furious charge (vehicles get twin linked shooting), t4 is fnp (vehicles get a 6+invul), t5 makes all your meltas and flamers torrent weapons, and t6 grants your army EW until the end of t7 in a sense the idea is building your army around a particular point in the game be that turn 3 or turn 1, or even haning on till turn 6 and gambling on that. id probably grant celestine a special benefit as a LoW that if she is taken in the primary detachment she lets you drop a second act of faith and that jakobus does the same thing except he has to roll a d6 at the start of the game and on a 4+ he gets a second activation or on a 3- he infers an additional flat benefit upon trigger like say adamantium will
this also solves the issue of the tempestus basically having no models, the sisters out of new ideas, and the two of them not having a codex sold on the shelf in the store like everyone else because there isnt enough material to justify a book for either.
The two forces would actually complement each other very well. Sisters of Battle have the plethora of flamers/boltguns to deal with hordes that tempestus struggle with, while tempestus (if properly implemented) would be able to focus down on the more heavily armoured foes with their greater mobility and transport options.
I think there's a certain problem in that the SoB are an organization with limited scope. Thematically you can't get too far away from the fact that they are an infantry-focused army with a focus on limited weapons systems.
I was looking at the same issue with Tempestus (light infantry based around SF). While you can't get around the fact SoB can't get too many tanks, bikes, or other crap they don't need, you can definitely dive into the religious and historical aspects that define the faction. This is what distinguishes them from the other PA armies.
If their basic unit choices are fine, focus on relics and religious-themed special abilities if we want to add more depth to the faction.
Swastakowey wrote: More male soldiers. I like the holy look, hate the female look.
Assuming you're referring to the hideous boobplate, then aye, I am with you.
If not, hahahahhahahaha no thank you.
Partly yes, and the hair. Just found it hard to take them seriously the way they look. HOWEVER I love the holy look, the ornaments and the carvings etc. Coupled with their inherent limits I think it would be better to just open it up to all types of minor factions as said above etc.
I really really really hope GW does not make Sisters with uni-sex armor. Not sure why it is so hard for some people to understand that realism and practicality are in no way, shape, or form considerations when it comes to designing anything for any faction in 40k. Arguments along those lines are inherently invalid. And yes there is background supporting the status quo: sororitas power armour leaves no question as to the wearer's gender, which fits the idea that the order exists thanks to that loophole in the post-Vandire agreement that the Ecclesiarchy may not keep a standing force of men under arms. Sisters as they are have a wonderfully unique gothic, over the top feel that is inextricably a part of their appeal and relevance. Perhaps those who would like to reduce/eliminate femininity had best pine for female IG figures or pretend their Space Marines are actually ladies inside of that boobless power armour.
As to their place as an army -- I would like to see Sisters remain regular humans in power armour. Besides being an all-female order, that is their defining characteristic. I think that should entail squads ranging from 5-15 sisters. They should feel elite but not super-extra-elite like SM; after all, they do not need to be produced by technogenetic procedures. Also I don't think there should be a bunch of different kinds. We don't need Judo Chop Sister and Underwater Action Sister. Honestly, one highly customizable entry would be best but of course that is a pipe dream considering how GW currently operates. Perhaps SoB could also have (i.e., regain) the option of commanding blobs of Fratris Militia, which would be closer to IG stat-wise but have special rules that make them unreliable unless spurred on by sisters or clerics.
I'll have to re-read the codex I have for them (the digital one on the iPad). I've always liked the Sisters of Battle.
The main reason I have yet to start a Sisters of Battle army is its one of those things that I think is SOOOO cool that I don't want to involve myself for fear of not doing it justice.
I even like their present models (even the Dialogus). I'm actually scared of a model update for them. Sure it would be nice to have kits with weapon options but I'm kind of worried how they'll be translated to plastic. The current metal models, to me, have character.
djphranq wrote: The current metal models, to me, have character.
Yes they are still really lovely. And they are surprisingly easy to paint up. The first 40k model I ever painted was a Sister and I still think she looks okay all these years later.
Honestly, I don't mind the current armor style that much (I would prefer a gothic breastplate, but that's personal taste, not necessity)... my main issue is that I just wish they were more poseable and had better heads. The helmets are great, the helmetless heads... not.
The tattered-scrap-of-hope rumour that all SoB fans cling to is of course that Jess Goodwin had trouble designing poseable sisters that maintained the drapery sleeves. I personally would be happy with limited poseability as long as the sculpts are really great otherwise. Maybe the issue could be resolved by having a few raised or lowered arms on the sprue.
My first thought would be to merge them back into Inquisition and Grey Knights, however the OP specifically said that that was off the table, so out of respect I'll think of something else.
tbh, not much comes to mind insofar as army design. What would be helpful is perhaps some commentary on what is bad about the Sisters (mechanically)?
How are the Sisters supposed to play, and how do they play in reality?
Hehe. I like that this topic popped up just as I agreed to purchase my first Sisters models.
I mostly like the armor design the corsette look and the crosses/fleur de lis designs I tend to see on the breasts isn't all that aesthetically pleasing to me, but I'm pretty happy with the general armor layout. The pauldrons, limbs, and helmets/masks are all cool.
Mechanically, I'd like to see them rework/focus on the faith powers angle a bit. Even with all the Ld buffs to make them more reliable, faith powers as a minor boost that you might get once a game is a little meh. I'd like to see the effect be more.... something. Usable more than once, more potent when they went off, maybe a combination of the two where the squad-wide buff is similar to what it is now, but characters gain some extra flash perk.
If nothing else, faith powers really need to be tweaked or redistributed. Right now we have ignores cover as an act of faith on a unit that might specialize in having a bunch of flamers, and we have rending as the act of faith for the long-ranged squad that only has one weapon that really benefits from it (heavy bolters next to multi-meltas which don't need it and heavy flamers which won't benefit from it often enough for it to be useful.)
I also kind of like the mechanic that I worked out for a homebrewed xenos faction a while back where they can trigger their faith to become "charged up," thus gaining their act of faith benefit, but then have to make a Ld test each turn to avoid losing the benefit for the rest of the game. That might be less fitting for sisters though.
Lots of units would become more interesting with some minor tweaks. The stormbolter suggestion from above would be great. Adjusting the cost of power weapons and making them available in bulk to certain squads would be nice. There really isn't a reason that things like plasma and missile launchers can't find their way into the special and heavy weapon slots.
I like the idea of them gaining more special rules as they lose models or generally take a beating. Something akin to the Power From Pain table might work. Or maybe something like, "units that have suffered one or more casualties gain X benefit. If the squad's sargeant was removed, they instead gain (better than X) benefit.). That might be too complicated alongside faith powers though. Maybe make it a formation/detachment benefit?
Sisters could really use some more transport options if only because 7th edition is so unkind to rhino chassis. The Cannoness would benefit a lot, I feel, from having a jump pack option (letting you give your seraphim a followup punch), and some sort of assault transport would be nice.
Penitent engines could use some sort of love as they just seem hard to get into combat. Maybe give them a 4+ invul if they're taken in squads of three or something? Exorcists are fine as they are, but a three-exorcists-in-a-squadron rule would be cool.
Even as cool as Celestine is for her points, she should probably have Eternal Warrior. It's just too easy for her to get insta-gibbed, and it's not like it would be unfluffy.
I'd like to see either more HQs or more tools in the Cannoness's toolbox. Currently, the cannoness can only be a sort-of-kind-of okay melee combatant, and she gets very expensive very fast if you try to give her too many toys. She can hand out some decent unit buffs for their cost, but you have about fifty ways to get the same o similar buffs more cheaply and/or more reliably through vehicle upgrades, warlord traits, certain units, etc.
Finally, a bit more distinction between factions/fighting styles would be nice. The fluff for the various orders is a good start, but when it comes to feeling different on the tabletop, the closest thing I see to a variation in playstyle is, "this order really likes its dominion squads." Maybe a bit more fluff and possibly even an "order vows" system? Something like:
Vow of Sorority: Gain 1 VP if all your non-vehicle squads are still on the table at the end of the game.
Vow of Vengeance: See that unit that just triggered your martyr rule? Gain an extra VP if it's dead by the game's end.
Vow of Resolve: Gain stubborn while standing on an objective.
Vow of Cleansing: Treat flamer weapons as having +1 strength. Lose a VP if you don't finish off at least one enemy unit with a flamer weapon by the game's end.
Vow of Purity: All enemy models with the daemon rule takea -1 penalty to their invul saves. Lose a VP if any enemy models with the daemon rule or a mark of a chaos god are within your deployment zone at the end of the game.
Okay. It's late, and I'm rambling. Time to stop adding to this post. >.<
Acts of faith will probably become like psychic powers with superiors acting like ml1 or something like that, but mention that they're not psychic powers. The system would work for their faith generation I think and it'd help them deny actual psykers decently.
Similar to how the old faith system worked I guess.
Vehicle squadrons like marines (some buff if there are 3).
New units: flyer and ground anti-air unit. Assault vehicle.
Formations (like Penitent formation).
They should get Vendettas to upset the Militarum Tempestus players... All 3 of them. If not a proper flyer of
some sort.
They also need more significant high strength long ranged units. Namely Lascannons and Autocannons.
Model wise just give them proper boots and make the chest flat with a 'Fleur de lis' on it. As far as I'm concerned, Sisters shouldn't be feminine. They're all female on a technicality, incredibly religious, zealous and highly trained elite soldiers.
I would also prefer to see them stay as a complete faction, but they have been neglected for so long I am not sure it is possible. They gained all one one (1) decent new tool in third edition (Exorcists), then nothing in fourth, nothing in fifth, nothing in sixth. Every other army has gained new tools, several generations of new models, etc. To make them a functional army, they would need to practically rebuild them from the ground-up. It would be a far greater undertaking than separating Daemons from CSM.
That all said, in my ideal world, Games Workshop cares and this will happen! I would like to see the Sisters form the backbone of an Ecclesiarchy codex. I am not interested in a freakshow! I never liked those units.
Univeral Rules:
* Adamantium Will seems obvious for an anti-Psyker army. Perhaps Preferred Enemy (Psyker) too?
* Either Stubborn, or a Martyrdom rule that grants Stubborn under certain situations. I hate Fearless and its over-use in the game.
* I loved the third edition Acts of Faith: it was (IMO) the best part of the book. If Guard can have that long list of Orders, Sisters can have a list of Acts they can perform!
HQ:
* I like the basic concept of the Canoness, but the current version is underwhelming. I believe she should fit a similar role to a Space Marine Captain or a Tau Commander: an elite unit that has the best equipment available.
* I would like to see a HQ-level Priest (eg Confessor) who can lead the army in a non-military sense, similar to a Tau Ethereal.
* I like the concept of a command squad including a Hospitaller and Dialogus and would like to see this concept built upon and available to any Sisters/Ecclesiarchy HQ.
Elites:
* Unique models for Celestians and perhaps some unique rules so they have a special niche in the army. Perhaps give them Storm Bolters in place of Boltguns and Artifice Armour, making them sort of the Sororitas equivalent to a Terminator.
* Repentia need a massive redesign. Not even sure why they are Elites, to be honest. By their fluff, they should be cheap Troops similar to Black Templar Neophytes. Perhaps Bolt Pistols and Chainswords as their basic gear, with Evicerators as an upgrade for some models.
* I would like to see something like the Empire's War Altar. A mid-rank Priest (eg Missionary) who performs blessings on units in place of a Psychic Phase. Mechanically, a chariot with a list of potential blessings whereby one can be bestowed to a single unit on passing a leadership test.
Troops:
* Battle Sisters should remain the core. I think they are essentially fine as is, with the whole Flamer/Melta deal. The ability to put them in Immolators, Rhinos or in large foot units works well for me! I do not like Heavy weapons in the unit (Heavy Bolter, Multi-Melta), but perhaps that is just me?
* A cheap option. Either Repentia (as I mentioned above), or perhaps something comparable to the IG Conscripts ('angry mob'). A mob could be armed with basic close combat weapons and lead by a basic priest, with the option for certain members to upgrade to shotguns or stub pistols.
Dedicated Transports:
* Rhinos and Immolators are essentially fine. I am not sure the Sisters really need anything else here, unless Games Workshop wants to give them a new, unique transport in place of the Space Marine Rhino and swap the Immolator onto this new chassis.
Fast Attack:
* Seraphim are a good start. I think a points tweak, but that is to be expected.
* Dominions are a little dull, IMO. Even now they have Scout, they do not really scream 'fast' to me: they are just Battle Sisters who start a little closer. Why not give them bikes? Nuns on motorbikes are a thing, so Sisters on bikes with Meltaguns should be great!
* I would like to see a skimmer. Not a Landspeeder: give us something new and unique. Some way the Sisters could quickly strafe opponents.
* A flier is pretty essential. I cannot see why they could not come up with a jet and bomber pairing that were unique to the Sisters. A Bomber should drop napalm, obviously!
Heavy Support:
* The Exorcist is fun, but not really in line with modern GW rules. An update to make it fit the current game, but otherwise I like it.
* Retributors are a good basis, but a little dull. Just yet another Devastator Squad. Why not make them a little different? For example, relocatable gun platforms that gain special rules when set up rather than fired from the hip (similar to the Exocrine's +1BS for not moving). For example, Heavy Bolters with Skyfire when set up. Obviously, this necessitate considerably more points per model!
* Some kind of pie! For example, an Exorcist variant that launches firebombs or a concussive warhead.
Super Heavies:
* I have said it before, and I will say it again: I want my cathedral on tracks! A super heavy transport, similar to the Stormlord, but looking like a small Gothic cathedral and with Ecclesiarchy rules/weapons.
BlaxicanX wrote: My first thought would be to merge them back into Inquisition and Grey Knights, however the OP specifically said that that was off the table, so out of respect I'll think of something else.
tbh, not much comes to mind insofar as army design. What would be helpful is perhaps some commentary on what is bad about the Sisters (mechanically)?
How are the Sisters supposed to play, and how do they play in reality?
They seem to be designed to be played with an aggressive up-in-your-grill style gameplay, with their emphasis on Boltguns, Meltaguns and Flamers. The only long range weapons they have are Heavy Bolters and the Exorcist Missile Launcher (48", S8, AP1, Heavy D6). They actually do that style of play reasonably well, particularly when you add Forgeworld's Repressor from Imperial Armour 2 to their Dedicated Transport lists.
So to keep their current style of play they probably need the following, assuming PLASTIC KITS are a given.
* A rationalisation of their points cost. A Battle Sister costs 12ppm for WS3, BS4, S3, T3, W1, A1, I3, Ld8, 3+ with a Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Frag/Krak grenades, the Shield of Faith rule (6++ and Adamantium Will) and a once per game Act of Faith. If you consider the Shield of Faith and Act of Faith rules to be a rough equivalent to the Chapter Tactics rule, you're paying 2ppm less for less WS, S, T, I and no ATSKNF compared to a Tactical Marine which is a rough deal imo. I mean friggen Space Marine Scouts are 1ppm less, get a straight up better stat-line and trade a 3+/6++ to a 4+ save for Infilitrate/Scout/Move Through Cover.
* Add the Repressor into the codex and give it a plastic kit - it should only need an extra sprue for a Rhino kit.
* Add the Avenger Strike Fighter into their codex and give it a plastic kit - this is also available for Imperial Guard so the model will have cross-codex usability.
* Add another Troop Choice. At the moment the only Troop Choice is a Battle Sister unit, so perhaps a light armoured/armed infantry to contrast to a highly trained and equipped Battle Sister. Frateris Militia (conscript/cultist type unit) seems an obvious and easy choice and works well with the Ecclesiarchy Theme that Sisters have (given that Uriah Jacobus, Ministorum Priests, Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclaves and Penitent Engines are already units in the codex).
* Fix Penitent Engines and Repentia. Both suffer terribly from being fragile and slow melee units. Make Penitent Engines move fast like a Maulerfiend or Skitarri Walkers, and give Repentia back their 4+ FNP as well as an increased movement speed option (either simply making them move/run fast like Demonettes and Skitarri or an give an Open-Topped/Assault Vehicle option).
* Make Celestians worth taking, probably by giving them cheap weapon options like Vanguard.
* Give them the fancy new formations and detachments like all armies are getting now. This can possibly tie into a re-vamped Act of Faith system, which works by <Insert Awesome New Mechanic Here>...
Immolators are supposed to be Razorbacks +1, not Razorbacks without the longer-range guns.
Also, Dominica-pattern Drop Pods please.
For the rest of the army, once you include Forge World, there really isn't a lot that the Sisters really lack in terms of unit choices. The Repressor, Arvus and Avenger plug the gaps of flier, heavy transport and flying transport very nicely.
Looking at the list, the current real 'gaps' in the Sisters army are;
- Super-heavy Infantry (Terminator/Centurion/Ogryn/Meganob/Wraithguard equivalent)
- Light Infantry (Guard/Cultist equivalent)
- Medium Infantry (Scout/Firewarrior/Tempestus Scion equivalent - but this can be ignored. You don't need medium infantry if you have both light and heavy infantry)
- Assault Vehicle (Raider/Land Raider/etc)
- Main Battle Tank support. Exorcist is nice, but its always been described as field artillery even if it acts like an MBT.
- Interceptor craft (Crimson Hunter/Nightscythe/Lightning equivalent).
And that's actually it. Everything else that needs to be done to the army is just a case of modifying existing units, primarily: Celestians.
Celestians need an identity. At the moment, they're Battle Sisters +1, but the +1 they get comes at too great a cost for the benefit (it's really more like +0.5) and they don't get anything to take advantage of it.
I'd like to see Celestians be given the Veteran Space Marine treatment. Give them full access to the armoury, or else split them into shooty Celestians and choppy Celestians with weapon upgrades to match. Special Ammo would be nice.
(As to whoever said that Heavy Flamers don't benefit enough from Rending to be worth it, oh boy. You have literally no idea how insane they are...)
Sisters also already have Adamantium Will. :p It's part of the Shield of Faith.
As for what new unit types I'd like to see? Frateris Militia (more like Cultists than Guardsmen), and actually, I have a list. The other thing might be something like a Centurion exo-skeleton, in the same role as the Marines use them - to buff up our Retributors and Celestians.
I feel that the WD codex "almost" got it right. IMO that was a mostly effective codex for them that needed only a few tweeks. But here is my 2 cents.
Acts of Faith need to not be one use only. Keep them as unit based, as not every unit would prob not benifit at the same moment if it was an army wide one.
While I don't really care for the random chance the D6 points per turn I was ok with. The old witchhunters Faithpoints pool from units with a faithfull model was fine too (my SoB ran 13 faith points then).
Cannoness Cannones need a reason to take her. Right now she has nothing going for her. If we did the D6 faithpoints per turn, she would add an extra D6. That would be a BIG reason to take one and fluffy IMO as she is supposed to be the super faith in her coven.
Give her the ability to take a jump pack again. I used to run her with my Seraphin and let her go to town.
Celestines The ability to kit them out as assault or shooty. ie "Any model can swap their bothgun for a combi-bolter, CCW, or power weapon" maybe allow then to purchase special issue ammo. AoF is furious charge in assault or twin linked in shooting.
Penatint Engine Move to Elites would help it some.
Make it a MC.
I'd like to see Untouchables. Really screw with psychic armies' ability to cast powers. Either add +1 need for successes, have super Shield of Faith (3+ deny the Witch), reduce the number of dice from their pool, etc. Untouchables were so powerful they could shield Russ from Magnus at the Counsel of Nicaea.
Be able to take blob squads of 20 and elite special weapon squads of 5-10.
Make them mobile. Rhino based transports are fine, but give them a skimmer or something.
-Plastics of course
-A plastic, non-FW flier. Many events still don't allow FW so an allied flier is a requirement.
-Codex rules for Repressor.
-Return to a faith points based for Acts of Faith. I loved having rending more than one turn, and a D6 plus bonuses (say from Celestine etc) would make them significantly more effective.
-An assault vehicle... it could be like a 13/12/12 Land Raider with flamers
If acts of faith essentially get turned into psychic powers, how would everyone feel about the following suggestions:
* You don't generate bonus faith points for having sisters on the table; you generate a bonus faith point for each unit of dead sisters as watching their sisters get martyred increases the religious fervor of the living.
* Rules that normally help deny powers (rerolls on psychic dice for instance) don't help because these aren't "psychic powers" and "psychic dice." They're "faith powers" and "faith dice."
While not as immediately useful as a bunch of psykers would be to a psychic army, you'd still generate d6 dice and theoretically have a few rules to boost your faith point pool in the early game. You'd also get more of a "push pull" mechanic where you gain advantages as you start losing units, hopefully making it harder for your opponent to snowball.You'd also theoretically start seeing the bonus dice roll in right around the time you began unloading into the enemy lines.
Sisters are in a bit of an odd spot. They need to be fleshed out a bit more, but keep their focus. It’s real easy to just toss IoM hardware at them, and a lot of it makes sense from a fluff POV. But we need to keep them distinct enough that they don’t just become a SM+boobs.
I liked the old faith point system. It let you start strong, left you weak in the middle game, where your units were mangled, but not martyred yet, and pull out some miracles in the end game. I think a combo of that point system fueling the unit specific AoF would work well. You could use formations to grant new AoFs that could be used by the units within it. This would give the army a “hook” that makes them unique, and meshes well with 7th’s formation happy environment.
One question is wether or not to keep them purely sororitas, or include more eclisiarchy stuff. Or even to go full witch hunter and fold in some of the old inquisition stuff. While part of me would like to see only sisters, I think keeping and adding some more faithful units would help widen the options a bit. I’d leave the inquisition in their own book, with allies, it’s easy to incorporate them into an army if you want.
The canoness needs some boost. Preferably an army wide buff, probably to faith.
Repentia and PEs need help to do their job.
Celestians need a lot of help. They are vets, with a CCAoF, but not the gear for it. There are a lot of ways they could go to fix them (or make multiple units and have more then one option) Let them swap out their bolters for a CCW, take melee weapons rather then special/heavies. Or make them the masters of the close range firefights that define the sisters. Either a AoF that reflects this, or something like counter attack/boost to overwatch, that will help them survive getting close enough to unload.
One problem with adding more SoB units is that they have already done a lot with the basic models. We have special weapon squads, mixed squads, and heavy weapon squads. What else can we do without new kits? Not a lot. One thing would be to copy the marines with the assorted flavors of veterans. Shooty/choppy/honor guard. Or add more units, like militia and more tanks.
As a rhino-hull army, there are plenty of options for more armor. The Baal pred with all the flamers, or the FW one with the melta fit in just fine with the holy trinity. The army lacks AA, so maybe an exorcist duel kit with an skyfire option.
I don't know how much of this has been said (because reading is hard) but I would like to focus on 3 points:
1) The wealth of the Ecclesiarchy. 2) The martial skills of the Adepta Sororitas. 3) The zealous faith of the Adepta Sororitas.
I think #1 could add a few features to the army: a) Let the Warlord of an army have as many relics as she likes. b) Let any character buy master-crafted weapons for +X points. c) Roll on a jokaero-like table called "wealth of the ecclesiarchy" with various benefits.
#2: a) Be the opposite of Imperial Guard, where large sisters blobs can split up into smaller squads of whatever size (so like 20 girls could be 2 10 girl squads, or 1 10 and 2 5, and so on.)
b) Greater access to special rules (Seraphim already have Hit and Run, so what's a rule like that for every other unit?)
#3: a) Units should all be LD10 with a character - there's no way their faith would falter as badly as a Marine's!
b) Martyrdom should increase the potency of faith, so perhaps be the opposite of Cult Mechanicus, where faith becomes more potent as models are -destroyed-
c)As faith increases by friendly models slain, so too does the shield of faith save increase by the same measure.
d) Faith should grant the sisters incredible things, like the already-present invulnerable save, that are miracles. Preferred Enemy is not a miracle. An example would be all Boltguns becoming AP1 as their ammunition is imbued with holy radiance or somesuch.
Give Celestians this statline: WS4, BS4, S3, T3, I4, A1, with the option of having boltpistol+chainsword instead of boltgun. If you take bp+sword, the special weapons options change to include power weapon purchases instead of the usual sb/flamer/melta option. For the record, this was their statline until fifth edition came out and knocked some stupid into the codex.
Also, I was thinking that maybe they should revive the old "army of stubborn" idea from 3rd edition, but maybe that's just nostalgia.
In 3rd edition, for those that don't remember, Sisters of Battle had the option of purchasing the Book of St. Lucius on all of their characters and sergeants. And almost always did so, because that allowed the squad, or any other sister squad with a unit within 6", to use the bearer's unmodified leadership value (nine for sergeants, ten for characters, IIRC) for all rolls-- their leadership couldn't 'be reduced below their sergeants' or characters' values depending on which was nearer.
I think that represents Sororitas zealotry rather well. Even in the face of utter horror, their courage doesn't change.
Nevelon wrote: But we need to keep them distinct enough that they don’t just become a SM+boobs.
Or just SM + secret hidden boobs for that matter.
Nevelon wrote: One question is wether or not to keep them purely sororitas, or include more eclisiarchy stuff.
Definitely not purely sisters BUT yes sisters-centric. The reason being, Adepta Sororitas is the standing army of the Ecclesiarchy. So, on the one hand, even if we ended up with a book called Codex: Ecclesiarchy sisters would still properly remain the focus. And why, on the other hand, not just zoom totally in on sisters? One of the coolest things about sisters is how inspirational they are, given they are regular humans who have superhuman resolve in faith. IMO the best way to show this is not with Acts of Faith superpowers but rather by reflecting it in other non-sororitas units: for example, in their ability to whip up otherwise inferior units (e.g., fratris militia) into a deadly religious frenzy. I think a great sisters book (as opposed to an acceptable one or even a good one) will give a vivid sense that simply being in the presence of these holy ladies is enough to make tearful sinners give everything in service to the Emperor for the sake of repentance. They are basically an army of Joans of Arc, after all.
Man, what a thread. Who'd have thought there'd be a fascinating discussion about SoB in this day and age?
From a fluffy perspective, I found the idea of Sisters as zealot berserkers hard to swallow, power armour or not. They're supposed to be able to handle threats even the Guard can't smash into submission, at least to the way I understood them, and small elite units tend to have greater discipline than regular frontline troops, not less. In that sense, a lot of the freakshow units - the penitent engine etc - just seemed like GW overplaying the joke rather than something that you would expect an elite religious force to deploy.
When it comes to their zealous nature, perhaps some special rule that affects their leadership/morale tests? I think the person above me mentioned that they used to have a universal "Stubborn" rule - perhaps that CAN be resurrected to serve as their special "thing?"
Don't confuse Sisters with Space Marines, like Adpeta Sororitas is some kind of elite precision strike force. That is not who they are. They are an army, not special forces. SoB formations are certainly more elite (read: specialized) than a given Guard formation ... but that makes sense. They are the military of the Ecclesiarchy, rather than the Imperium generally. Their structure reflects the martial dimension of religion: reaffirming the faithful, immolating the damned.
Manchu wrote: Don't confuse Sisters with Space Marines, like Adpeta Sororitas is some kind of elite precision strike force. That is not who they are. They are an army, not special forces. SoB formations are certainly more elite (read: specialized) than a given Guard formation ... but that makes sense. They are the military of the Ecclesiarchy, rather than the Imperium generally. Their structure reflects the martial dimension of religion: reaffirming the faithful, immolating the damned.
Granted, they're nowhere near as specialised as the Marines. Even so, if they're a more regular army with better equipment (in equivalent terms, a professional army as compared to one drafted into service or summoned through levy, as a lot of the Guard's regiments are), the idea that they throw themselves into battle like maniacs still doesn't quite fit with the idea of an army designed to fight for and defend the holiest places of the Imperium. I guess I find it difficult to imagine the Ecclesiarchy would entrust their safety and the safety of their most precious relics to a bunch of bloodthirsty nutters.
...That said, this is the Imperium we're talking about, so there's every chance the Ecclesiarchy would do exactly that.
Manchu wrote: SoB are zealous but they are not mindless berserkers who throw their lives away on a violent whim. Where did you get that idea?
Some fluff tends to depict them as such. Can't remember which books off the top of my head, but I recall a few Black Library stories that did so. I thought it was pretty daft, myself.
1) is a dex of its own, because.
2) plastics
3) add units
The chance I see is, a dex with the ecclesiarchy in it can add "cannonfodder" without making the whole army pushovers and have more "well supported because deep coffers" units too.
Faith should be their specific "tool".
Problems is, a morale boost isn't as good as many other special "add ons" like useful USR's.
So I would like to :
a) have a nice but uninteruptable Faith mechanic ( not psychic powers )
b) make it balanced because you can't choose freely to activate it because you have to spend points you need to collect first;
b1) make it balanced because the flow of the game increases or decreases your influx of points ( burning heretics and mutants = + , martyrs = ++ for example, loosing that relic = -- )
b2) only the basic level of Faith, "the Emperor protects" as a deny the witch bonus, should be always active.
have some unique gear, equipment, weapons, relics.
a) equipment could add some very specific abilities, upgrades for example.
b) weapons are obviously "in flavor" to keep people happy, but maybe some new aren't bad to have....
c) relics. A must have. And a risk. The danger of loosing them in battle, so you have to reclaim them.
have some Priests and Fatihful ablative wounds, also known as militia...
change the Pentinent to a suicide unit . Like a one use weapon. Maybe deepstrike them? With catapults? Drop em from low altlitude?
add a flier and a AA-upgrade or a pure AA-vehicle.
add a transport. Maybe open topped ( cause the SoB got a 3+ and you can hear their hymns better then..) with a transport capacity of 20 human sized models. Should move 12". Maybe a terrain upgrade too.
maybe different weapons to split the Seraphim and Celestians into 2 builds. One gunslinger / one Spear & shield. So either gun em down or put em up on that spear and pin them to roast em... Maybe flamers always available to all squads.
Immolator = one turret = holy trinity of guns seems ok but, maybe maybe in our age of grav .. to crush his foes under their own blasphemous weight sounds good...
if all else fails, let them have some cavalry. Or bikes?
Plus, Background written by someone who isn't stuck in a "Sales are our only Master" line of thinking. Somebody who deserves the title "Author".
Regarding sisters being "elite," they are and they aren't. According to the book, orders can be as small as 100 girls or as large as 1,000. Which would mean that at most, a given order would be the size of a full-strength space marine chapter. That said, you can presumably whip up an Order a lot faster than you can a Chapter. No need for surgery, less demanding selection for recruits (arguably), less specialized gear (they get the normal-sized bolters, for instance, rather than the astartes-sized ones).
That said, I'm not against throwing out the 100-1,000 strong thing as heresy. Otherwise, every 10 girls you lose in a little skirmish on the tabletop represents a full 1% of your order's maximum possible strength, which doesn't seem quite right.
Personally, I think they fit about right being roughly as elite as scions. They're how humanity's troops probably should be equipped. They've got their cool power armored suit and armor-piercing RPG launcher(bolter), but they aren't as meaty as space marines. Marines still feel extra special next to sisters, but sisters aren't armed with t-shirts and flashlights, as the internet people like to say.
Regarding faith powers, I'm really split on how "flashy" they should be. Generally, I'm a fan of light shows, but having rank and file sisters use prayers to generate overtly supernatural effects seems a bit much. Sisters aren't quite so common as guard, but they aren't exactly rare either, and they seem to spend a lot of time living among imperial populations. Having your local nun know how to literally smite enemies with lightning or make her gun glow with holy light doesn't sit quite right with how I envision sisters.
I kind of like the idea of having access to an elite or HQ choice that represents a special snowflake sister that has exhibited miraculous abilities. They're one-in-a-billion individuals that have gotten their "heresy free' stamps from relevant officials and been allowed to continue serving their orders. These are the girls who can go around throwing cleansing flames at things or healing sisters with the clouds of holy light that surround them. Acts of Faith for regular sisters can remain subtle.
EDIT:
Regarding "fraternis" units or what have you, I recall a Ciaphas Caine story where the local PDF assigned to the same territories as Sisters were essentially under Sororitas command and coordinated their gear/tactics accordingly. I could see this being a fitting "fodder" unit if you really wanted such a thing. I also like the idea of letting the celestians have 2+ armor (with a points increase); it would genuinely make them better at the close-combat roles they seem to sort of kind of be intended for and also give them the cool niche of being a T3 model with a 2+ armor save. The only other model with that that comes to mind is some flavor of inquisitor.
I like the "freakshow" units, but I hate their models. I think they should be a valid option in the same way that haemonculus covens are a valid (but optional) part of the Dark Eldar book.
Wyldhunt wrote: That said, I'm not against throwing out the 100-1,000 strong thing as heresy.
Totally agree. What little numbers were disclosed never made any sense (there would be more cardinals than sisters!), unless you assumed there were many, many orders.
I assumed that there are thousands, possibly millions, of minor orders that each had a between a few hundred to a few thousand sisters, and close ties to a major order, each one serving a specific interest (IE participating in a specific crusade, defending a specific shrine, and so on).
Ashiraya wrote: Aren't there only like hundreds of thousands of SoB in the entire galaxy?
Each major order had a few hundred thousand I think, but then there's no numbers given for the minor orders. GW is incredibly inconsistent about this. Hell, GW is inconsistent about the number of orders majoris, period-- at one point saying there was only three or four, when every other source said six.
That is pretty much what I assumed as well but it never really sat right with me because of how prominent (or basically ubiquitous) certain orders seem to be (e.g., Martyred Lady). Chalk it up to Ultramarines effect, I suppose. Still, it would make more sense (to me at least) if GW retconned a given order's ranks to something closer to thirty to fifty thousand if not more. Given the droves of children processed into Schola Progenium throughout the Imperium, this seems anything but far-fetched. (And consider there are something like 20,000 Jesuits IRL.)
Melissia wrote: I assumed that there are thousands, possibly millions, of minor orders that each had a between a few hundred to a few thousand sisters, and close ties to a major order.
I tend to sort of envision it that way as well, but the way they talk about orders in things like the Sanctuary 101 novel, they give the impression that orders generally handle a lot of tasks at a time. A given minor order might have a dozen girls guarding a moderately important shrine on some backwater, have a few hundred girls locked in combat on a world near the edge of their "territory," have a couple hundred more shipping off to help out with the latest crusade all the kids are talking about, and then have a few more scattered here and there serving as guardians of ecclesiarchal structures, serving as bodyguards, etc. If the maximum body count for your order is 1,000 girls, you really don't have a lot of manpower to send out on whatever other mission happens to arise.
And then there's the issue of defending whole planets. If you want to play a campaign or make a story or whatever in which a single order (or even several orders) defend an entire planet without significant backup from regular guardsmen, you're potentially looking at a laughably small army. Let's say 5 orders team up to defend a given world. If we stick to the fluff that says an order maxes out at about 1,000 girls, you're looking at 5,000 ladies tops. Compare that to real-world forces that struggle to deal with armies of comparable size. Then Compare that to, say, an ork Waaaagh! With marines (and other factions), you can hand-waive it by saying, "Well, marines are just like, really tough, guys. Even if he goes down in a fight, he's already back up for the next one." With sisters, power armor is only going to save you so many times. When a sister gets shot, bleeding out is a very real possibility. Sisters don't generally survive shots to the head the way marines do. Sisters could bolster their numbers by whipping the local forces into shape, and that's a cool and reasonable idea. But I still don't like the odds of 5,000 sisters + X guys with, at the most, autoguns and lasguns as their best infantry weapon versus an Ork Waagh, a Tyranid fleet, etc.
All of this combines to just make the idea of such small Sister orders a little unwieldy. The idea of minor orders working in tandem with each other and with major orders is a cool one, but if your order is only, say, 500 girls strong, keep track of your casualties in your next fight, consider that the whole engagement is really only a couple minutes of battle in a much larger war, and think about just how quickly that order is evaporating away into nothing. (Yay for run-on sentences!) After a couple of days, less if the fighting goes badly, an entire order could be wiped out, and then it would be time to repaint and rename your whole army. >.< Even sending 1,000 sisters to help the fight on a given planet seems like such a drop in the bucket... Again, marines can get away with it because plot armor and plot power. Which isn't to say that sisters aren't cool; they're just a little more subservient to the laws of physics and mortality than marines are.
I enjoy the Sisters immensely as an army, but I think the units they have available to them right now are more than sufficient for a codex. What I do not want to see are Sisters with 2+ saves, Sisters on bikes, or Sisters in super-heavies. It's the path of least resistance to make them "Marines Light" and it's lazy design.
HQ: Cannoness, rosarius and relic blade as standard. Allow her access to a jump pack again. Make her a bit of a CC beast with good WS and Initiative.
Troops: SoB Squad, 5-20 ladies. Pretty solid as they're currently portrayed.
Elites: Celestians, 5-10 ladies, shock assault unit. WS4 with bolt pistol and cc weapon. Allow squad upgrades to power mauls and eviscerators. Maybe make the Celestian VSS a Palatine with 2 wounds and access to wargear andr relics. Sorta like a Convent Champion type character.
FA: Seraphim, 5-10 ladies, jump infantry. I like them as they are now. A good AoF could give them more bite, especially in that critical charge round.
HS: Merge Doms and Rets into a single unit, 5-10 ladies, access to 4 special or heavy weapons.
The AoF would be the real thing that makes the entire list shine. I'd really have to noodle how I'd tackle that, but the current system is lacking in drama and creativity, IMO. The rest of a "Sisters" 'dex would be Ecclesiarchy!
HQ: Cardinal. A master of buffs. Protect him with a retinue of Crusaders (power weps and storm shields), and give him the ability to inspire with prayer and oration.
Troops: Frateris Militia/Zealots, 20-50 strong, mob weapons and the option to upgrade a select few to demagogues or fanatics with eviscerators and/or flamer type weapons.
Elites: Repentia, 5-10 ladies, eviscerators and FNP. Give them the chance to get where they're going with a one-use ability or a crunchy AoF.
Fast Attack: Arco-flagellants, 5-10 strong, insane CC killing machines. Make them fast and deadly, able to withstand a turn or two of shooting, and then let them expend all their energy in a turn or two of assault.
Heavy Support: Pengines! These things should be terrifying. Faster than dreads, gore-soaked, and in the enemy's grill in turn one. They should be able to blender a squad a turn if left unchecked.
the_Armyman wrote: I enjoy the Sisters immensely as an army, but I think the units they have available to them right now are more than sufficient for a codex. What I do not want to see are Sisters with 2+ saves, Sisters on bikes, or Sisters in super-heavies. It's the path of least resistance to make them "Marines Light" and it's lazy design.
Are Eldar "marines light"? Or Orks? Almost all armies have at least two of those three.
Marines don't own the idea of 2+ saves, bikes, or super-heavies.
the_Armyman wrote: I enjoy the Sisters immensely as an army, but I think the units they have available to them right now are more than sufficient for a codex. What I do not want to see are Sisters with 2+ saves, Sisters on bikes, or Sisters in super-heavies. It's the path of least resistance to make them "Marines Light" and it's lazy design.
Are Eldar "marines light"? Or Orks? Almost all armies have at least two of those three.
Marines don't own the idea of 2+ saves, bikes, or super-heavies.
Actually, as much as I enjoy the idea of SoB in TDA, he has a point. Eldar has neither 2+ saves (outside of Phoenix Lords, but then, they are a very special case) nor bikes (they have JETbikes, but they are very different things and Imperial jetbikes are so rare they almost no longer exist). Ork haphazard patchwork tech ensures that they remain very different from the Astartes.
Sydney does this fairly well I think, introducing new units that are useful -and- different.
I keep seeing people claiming the Sisterhood isn't "elite".
There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines. They are that damned elite! They're not an "army" in the traditional sense of the word, they're "simply" the only standing military force the Ecclesiarchy is allowed to have. There are worlds in the Imperium with hundreds of Sisters, there are worlds in the Imperium with a single Sister, and there are worlds in the Imperium without any at all.
As far as the "freak-show" is concerned... well, that is what you would get with a Codex: Ecclesiarchy book. PEngines are an Ecclesiarchy thing... take a heretic, screw its mind up, then unleash it on the enemies of the Church so it can give its life in absolution. The machine is worth more than the person strapped to the front of it, but the Ecclesiarchy is hardly poor and so can well-afford to replace them. The Clerics and Frateris Militia are an Ecclesiarchy thing.
Certain units in the Codex seem to suffer from trying to fill two roles at the same time. This needs to change. A unit should be either ranged-combat focused or close-combat focused, it should not try to be both. The HQ options for Sisters need to be a bit better at the baseline, rather than being huge points-sinks in wargear and relics to become slightly competitive. There needs to be a "generic" Living Saint, perhaps "built" in the same way a C'Tan Shard is, with a base statline and basic abilities, and options to customize in both wargear and Acts of Faith or buff-bubbles.
Obviously, they are going to be few. They are female orphans of Imperial officers with a military aptitude, strength of will, and above-average physical characteristics.
ionusx wrote: i think they should be rolled into the militarium tempestus codex as the schole progenium codex which would grant the sisters access to storm troopers, withch hunters, and limited access to vindicare temple assassins.
As a standalone force Sisters are like Harlequins, narrow and limited. While that may have worked back in 2E and been marginal in 3E, with the expansion of everything in 6E / 7E, there's just too much ground to make up at this point. If Sisters are to survive, they need to be married into a more successful framework, either Stormtroopers or Inquisition. Regardless, the recent expansion of Stormtroopers into a full blown Codex shows Sisters to be an obsolete, redundant luxury.
Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.
the_Armyman wrote: I enjoy the Sisters immensely as an army, but I think the units they have available to them right now are more than sufficient for a codex. What I do not want to see are Sisters with 2+ saves, Sisters on bikes, or Sisters in super-heavies. It's the path of least resistance to make them "Marines Light" and it's lazy design.
Are Eldar "marines light"? Or Orks? Almost all armies have at least two of those three.
Marines don't own the idea of 2+ saves, bikes, or super-heavies.
Sisters on bikes and in termie armor have never existed. When we create our own ideas about what we believe a new Sisters 'dex should include, we're not hobbled by GW's need to SELL MOAR MODELS!! So, we don't need to create Centurions and Hunter/Stalkers and shoehorn them into fluff. There's a wealth of existing fluff to draw upon, don't reinvent the wheel just because you can.
HS: Merge Doms and Rets into a single unit, 5-10 ladies, access to 4 special or heavy weapons.
Holy crap no. It's already rets vs exorcists, you want to throw doms into that mix?
If you fix the list and make underperdorming units attractive choices, you're not restricted to just the same cookie-cutter army lists we see now. Y'know the Celestine/2 Sisters minimum/3 Doms/3 Exo army lists you're obviously familiar with.
The nice thing about the olden days of spamming the Book of St. Lucius was that you could actually turn it off - if, say, you wanted to have your I5 (Due to The Passion) Sisters squad break away from a combat they're losing, you could elect to not use the Book, suffer leadership penalties and flee to your hearts content - while at the same time choosing to use the book when you wanted to stick in combat.
Sisters in terminator armour? No, thanks. But something like the Militarised Power Loaders from the Aliens comics? That would be awesome.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down.
Sisters don't need to be just another horde army. Go play astra militarium if that's all you want, and apparently it is.
the_Armyman wrote: Sisters on bikes and in termie armor have never existed
Centurions never existed. Until they did.
It's strange that people object to THIS stuff,but not to Hwang's oddball suggestion to completely re-write Sisters in to something entirely different.
ionusx wrote: i think they should be rolled into the militarium tempestus codex as the schole progenium codex which would grant the sisters access to storm troopers, withch hunters, and limited access to vindicare temple assassins.
As a standalone force Sisters are like Harlequins, narrow and limited. While that may have worked back in 2E and been marginal in 3E, with the expansion of everything in 6E / 7E, there's just too much ground to make up at this point. If Sisters are to survive, they need to be married into a more successful framework, either Stormtroopers or Inquisition. Regardless, the recent expansion of Stormtroopers into a full blown Codex shows Sisters to be an obsolete, redundant luxury.
Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.
To me, sisters are just begging to be given the dark eldar treatment. Give 'em some new models, some tighter rules (though I don't hate the current rules), and some snazzy formations. To me, they're far from obsolete.
That said, giving them 4+ armor and taking away their acts of faith would just turn them into less interesting storm troopers, and those changes *would* make them obsolete. To each their own, but I much prefer power armor and cool semi-miraculous powers to storm troopers with bolters that can't deepstrike. Those "fiddly" bits you dislike are actually a big part of why I just purchased my first few sisters. I love the idea of (more or less) regular humans wearing power armor. They aren't the inhuman battle monsters marines are, but they aren't being written off as ablative wounds in the imperial guard either. They're humans that someone bothered to give decent gear. The acts of faith are a cool mechanic (even if I'd kind of like to see it reworked) that makes them feel different from other factions rather than just being a collection of points values and weapons profiles.
A price decrease (or some sort of minor buff) is probably called for, but you don't have to nerf them to get it. Marines have gone down in price two editions in a row, haven't they? If guys with better statlines, gear, and reliable powers (no leadership test for most chapter tactics, and you can use those tactics all game in most cases) weren't worth their price tag, sisters could probably stand either a mild discount or a mild boost of some sort.
As has been pointed out, if you're going to nerf them, lower their points cost, and take away their cool unique rules, why not play scions or even IG instead?
Also, high points cost with T3 works just fine for eldar. There's no reason it couldn't work for sisters. Not that I'm advocating turning them into aspect warriors, but high cost T3 with a 3+ (or worse) armor save wouldn't be anything new.
Regarding 2+ armor, I don't particularly like the idea of terminator sisters, but I do kind of like the idea of sanguinary guard style sisters. Less terminator, more artificer, with optional wings or jump pack engines. At toughness three, they still wouldn't be especially durable, but they'd be durable enough (especially next to their fellows) to feel distinct from the girls in power armor, and that 2+ armor mixed with a melee loadout could make them a reasonable melee unit to bully enemy units with. I still probably wouldn't throw them at dedicated melee units though.
Advocating for nerfing stats and reducing cost is making the army more of a horde army. There's no way around that. That's how horde armies are defined.
Well yes, I am also sure that for some people GK strike squads are far too hordy and only Terminators are enough.
I don't really think anything 10 ppm or above is anywhere near a horde, especially not when upgrades, special weapons, squad leaders, transports etc. factor in.
the_Armyman wrote: Sisters on bikes and in termie armor have never existed
Centurions never existed. Until they did.
I'm assuming you missed the rest of the sentences after that sentence and just hit the reply button so fast that the rest of my post was futile, but I specifically named Centurions and I objected to them being created. Just as I would object to Sister bikers or Sisters in up-armored suits of power armor being pulled from someone's butthole to fill an imagined need in the Sisters army list.
the_Armyman wrote: I'm assuming you missed the rest of the sentences after that
I did. They were irrelevant.
As was your objection of "being pulled from someone's butthole". Every new unit is "pulled from someone's butthole". That's how the creative process at GW works.
Faithknight - a monstrous creature consisting of a sister in power armor inside a larger suit of armor encased within a giant robot. Armed with the faithcannon, which is Strength D assault 6 range 48" AP2. The unit costs 90 points and has 6 wounds.
Centurionettes - Sisters in centurion armor. Armed with twin-linked heavy grav cannons.
Brothers of Battle - Power-armored units with bolters, upgraded strength and toughness, LD 9 and a special rule that makes them automatically pass fear and regroup tests. I'm thinking they could cost around 14 points each and have access to razorbacks and drop pods.
Also Repentia squads should have 3++ saves, non-unwieldy S8 weapons, drop pods and new models with less clothing.
As someone just getting into sisters, I'm not really opposed to the introduction of new In the hypothetical situation where GW actually makes something new for them, I imagine we'd also be seeing lots of plastic sisters kits and a big influx of sisters players who would also be buying sisters stuff for the first time and thus not feel like they were being made to change their armies or what have you.
I like the units that are in the Sisters book right now, but they pretty much include:
* About 5 units of "people who done messed up"
* Metal box with big gun
*Metal box with little gun and leg space.
*sisters with bolters
*sisters with extra flamers/meltas
*sisters with jump packs
*sisters with extra heavy weapons
*sisters but slightly better
*sister but even slightly better than that and with relics
*priests
*celestine
It's nice to have a cohesive feeling army, but I also wouldn't mind a little variety. ^_^;
To compare, my dark eldar can have
*space elf crime family units
*space elf gladiators
*space elf mad scientists
*space elf mad scientist body horror experiments
*sun-worshipping winged messengers
*mysterious, vaguely daemonic hybrids
* space elf samurai mercenaries
* Space elf gang members on hover boards
JohnHwangDD wrote: Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.
That said, giving them 4+ armor and taking away their acts of faith would just turn them into less interesting storm troopers, and those changes *would* make them obsolete.
To each their own, but I much prefer power armor and cool semi-miraculous powers to storm troopers with bolters that can't deepstrike. Those "fiddly" bits you dislike are actually a big part of why I just purchased my first few sisters.
A price decrease (or some sort of minor buff) is probably called for, but you don't have to nerf them to get it.
As has been pointed out, if you're going to nerf them, lower their points cost, and take away their cool unique rules, why not play scions or even IG instead?
Also, high points cost with T3 works just fine for eldar. There's no reason it couldn't work for sisters.
Regarding 2+ armor, I don't particularly like the idea of terminator sisters, but I do kind of like the idea of sanguinary guard style sisters.
Stormtrooper with an automatic 5++ invulnerable save and a better gun makes them obsolete? What game to you play? The biggest weakness with Storms is that their guns are crap, and that they die to easily. S4 is better better S3, and 5++ lets them save against EVERYTHING.
Nubcake, I purchased my first Sisters at the start of 3E, before Acts of Faith existed.
I do play IG, but IG don't have 4+/5++ saves nor A4 AP5 Bolters. If you could show me where those are, I'd be surprised. And that automatic 5++? Better than having to roll the dice for it.
Eldar already have the super-elite T3 niche. Sisters are NOT welcome to overlap it. Sisters are just ordinary humans with sub-SM tech, not Eldar hyper tech. They should cost less than Eldar Aspects, just 1 single point more than Storms.
If the base Sister is 4++/5++, that opens the door for a MEQ Elite Sister with 3+/5++. Or even 3+/4++. That would be significant, too.
Chroming up Sisters because you have Eldar envy, SM envy, that's a bad idea. Marginally pricier than Storms is the ideal target point for Sisters, slotting them clearly below superhuman SMs and Eldar. At roughly 10 pts per model, that's not a horde. Guard at 5 pts per model is a horde. Cheap Gaunts and Boyz are a horde. But 10 pts base? Not a horde. What Sisters should not be is elite like Eldar or SMs, and that means keeping their points and abilities at 12 pts, max.
the_Armyman wrote: I'm assuming you missed the rest of the sentences after that
I did. They were irrelevant.
As was your objection of "being pulled from someone's butthole". Every new unit is "pulled from someone's butthole". That's how the creative process at GW works.
So, you created a thread to discuss how someone OTHER than GW would improve the Sisters 'dex, then explained to my why we should continue to do things the GW way? Why create new units when the ones we have work perfectly fine without the addition of nonsense like we have every time GW updates a codex: dreadknights, tauroxes, centurions, murderfang, wraithknights, riptides, etc?
But I'm guesing you stopped reading my reply after the first couple words because the rest was irrelevant, right?
the_Armyman wrote: So, you created a thread to discuss how someone OTHER than GW would improve the Sisters 'dex, then explained to my why we should continue to do things the GW way?
I created this thread to talk about how people envision the best way to do this. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everyone.
I don't find this objection relevant. All new units involve retcons due to the nature of 40k. No exceptions. There have been no units ever added since rogue trader that didn't 'tinvolve some kind of retcon. So there's really no point in objecting to retconning a new unit in to existence in my eyes.
First things i'd change:
Penitent engines to Elite slot. Make them MCs (but fair?) and bring back their crazy can create more hits on more hits rules. They're supposed to be a flaming cheese grater or doom. DOOOM!!
Exorcists get a dual firing mode, D6str 8 ap1, or st5 ap4 large blast. Call the second mode promethium missile or something. No anti-air missiles, that's lame.
Repentia need an all the time 4+ FNP against shooting, since their current FNP is useless being only in assault.
Celestians should be moved to troops and given an assault themed loadout with similar stats and costs to battle sisters. perhaps BS 3, WS 4, s 3, t 3 init 4, att 2
Canoness gets a jump pack and a little beefier in assault.
Bring back celestine's infinite do-overs. My favorite games were when she died on turn 1, then resurrected on turn 6 to save the day. Plus Yarrick is lonely being the last one alive when the dust settles.
Create some form of priest themed faith wagon. I picture an over the top Taurox as a form of faith bubble in the center of the army.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.
That said, giving them 4+ armor and taking away their acts of faith would just turn them into less interesting storm troopers, and those changes *would* make them obsolete.
To each their own, but I much prefer power armor and cool semi-miraculous powers to storm troopers with bolters that can't deepstrike. Those "fiddly" bits you dislike are actually a big part of why I just purchased my first few sisters.
A price decrease (or some sort of minor buff) is probably called for, but you don't have to nerf them to get it.
As has been pointed out, if you're going to nerf them, lower their points cost, and take away their cool unique rules, why not play scions or even IG instead?
Also, high points cost with T3 works just fine for eldar. There's no reason it couldn't work for sisters.
Regarding 2+ armor, I don't particularly like the idea of terminator sisters, but I do kind of like the idea of sanguinary guard style sisters.
Stormtrooper with an automatic 5++ invulnerable save and a better gun makes them obsolete? What game to you play? The biggest weakness with Storms is that their guns are crap, and that they die to easily. S4 is better better S3, and 5++ lets them save against EVERYTHING.
Nubcake, I purchased my first Sisters at the start of 3E, before Acts of Faith existed.
I do play IG, but IG don't have 4+/5++ saves nor A4 AP5 Bolters. If you could show me where those are, I'd be surprised. And that automatic 5++? Better than having to roll the dice for it.
Eldar already have the super-elite T3 niche. Sisters are NOT welcome to overlap it. Sisters are just ordinary humans with sub-SM tech, not Eldar hyper tech. They should cost less than Eldar Aspects, just 1 single point more than Storms.
If the base Sister is 4++/5++, that opens the door for a MEQ Elite Sister with 3+/5++. Or even 3+/4++. That would be significant, too.
Chroming up Sisters because you have Eldar envy, SM envy, that's a bad idea. Marginally pricier than Storms is the ideal target point for Sisters, slotting them clearly below superhuman SMs and Eldar. At roughly 10 pts per model, that's not a horde. Guard at 5 pts per model is a horde. Cheap Gaunts and Boyz are a horde. But 10 pts base? Not a horde. What Sisters should not be is elite like Eldar or SMs, and that means keeping their points and abilities at 12 pts, max.
No need to be rude.
Scions don't have the 5+ invul, but they do have 4+ armor. Considering most small arms are ap 5 or worse, you would be using that 4+ armor quite a bit which would make them feel similar in terms of durability most of the time. That 5+ invul would be nice when it came up, but they'd feel very similar. I'd rather have the 3+ armor save both to make them feel more distinctive and to let them stand up to small arms fire better. Strength 4 is better, sure, but bolt weapons really aren't very impressive. I'd be fine with storm troopers having access to an option to be more similar to Sisters, but a hypothetical 4+/5++ sister with a boltgun is still going to feel pretty similar to a storm trooper most of the time thus making them, in my eyes, redundant. So maybe they wouldn't be "obsolete," but they would be redundant enough for me to disagree with a change in that direction.
The 5+ invul save, I'd also point out, is a bit less useful when you consider that it's pretty easy to get at least a 5+ cover save, so the 5+ invul would mostly be a melee thing, and I don't get the impression that sisters are prone to winning melee most of the time.
This "nubcake" is very glad that you've been enjoying your army since before acts of faith were a thing. I maintain that their mini-miracles are one of the things that makes them appealing as an army. Taking faith powers away, especially if you also made them into carapace armored troops, would leave them feeling pretty bland to me. At that point, they'd pretty much just be carapace armored veterans riding in immolators rather than chimeras or storm troopers who traded their ability to deepstrike for a supply of boltguns.
As I mentioned in my post, I'm not advocating turning sisters into aspect warriors. You had mentioned something to the effect that making t3 models more expensive but more effective didn't work, so I was pointing out that for some armies it does. I agree that's not the direction to take sisters though.
Leaving sisters in power armor doesn't preclude the possibility of giving more elite sisters 3+/5++ or 3+/4++ saves. You can simply say their faith is stronger or the Emperor smiles upon them or whatever. While I like the idea of elite, better-protected sisters, they don't have to make the "normal" sisters wear carapace armor to get that.
I actually agree that sisters should be somewhere in the ballpark of 10 to 12 points apiece. Based on your post quoted in my last post, I got the impression you were looking to lower their costs even further. You were, after all, advocating taking away special rules, weakening their armor saves, saying that lowering their points was the most important change you'd make, and pointing out that they aren't space marines.
Also, I'm fairly certain I don't have "eldar envy" considering eldar are my main army. If I really wanted to play eldar, I would just, er, play my eldar.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.
That said, giving them 4+ armor and taking away their acts of faith would just turn them into less interesting storm troopers, and those changes *would* make them obsolete.
To each their own, but I much prefer power armor and cool semi-miraculous powers to storm troopers with bolters that can't deepstrike. Those "fiddly" bits you dislike are actually a big part of why I just purchased my first few sisters.
A price decrease (or some sort of minor buff) is probably called for, but you don't have to nerf them to get it.
As has been pointed out, if you're going to nerf them, lower their points cost, and take away their cool unique rules, why not play scions or even IG instead?
Also, high points cost with T3 works just fine for eldar. There's no reason it couldn't work for sisters.
Regarding 2+ armor, I don't particularly like the idea of terminator sisters, but I do kind of like the idea of sanguinary guard style sisters.
Stormtrooper with an automatic 5++ invulnerable save and a better gun makes them obsolete? What game to you play? The biggest weakness with Storms is that their guns are crap, and that they die to easily. S4 is better better S3, and 5++ lets them save against EVERYTHING.
Nubcake, I purchased my first Sisters at the start of 3E, before Acts of Faith existed.
I do play IG, but IG don't have 4+/5++ saves nor A4 AP5 Bolters. If you could show me where those are, I'd be surprised. And that automatic 5++? Better than having to roll the dice for it.
Eldar already have the super-elite T3 niche. Sisters are NOT welcome to overlap it. Sisters are just ordinary humans with sub-SM tech, not Eldar hyper tech. They should cost less than Eldar Aspects, just 1 single point more than Storms.
If the base Sister is 4++/5++, that opens the door for a MEQ Elite Sister with 3+/5++. Or even 3+/4++. That would be significant, too.
Chroming up Sisters because you have Eldar envy, SM envy, that's a bad idea. Marginally pricier than Storms is the ideal target point for Sisters, slotting them clearly below superhuman SMs and Eldar. At roughly 10 pts per model, that's not a horde. Guard at 5 pts per model is a horde. Cheap Gaunts and Boyz are a horde. But 10 pts base? Not a horde. What Sisters should not be is elite like Eldar or SMs, and that means keeping their points and abilities at 12 pts, max.
No need to be rude.
Scions don't have the 5+ invul, but they do have 4+ armor. Considering most small arms are ap 5 or worse, you would be using that 4+ armor quite a bit which would make them feel similar in terms of durability most of the time. That 5+ invul would be nice when it came up, but they'd feel very similar. I'd rather have the 3+ armor save both to make them feel more distinctive and to let them stand up to small arms fire better. Strength 4 is better, sure, but bolt weapons really aren't very impressive. I'd be fine with storm troopers having access to an option to be more similar to Sisters, but a hypothetical 4+/5++ sister with a boltgun is still going to feel pretty similar to a storm trooper most of the time thus making them, in my eyes, redundant. So maybe they wouldn't be "obsolete," but they would be redundant enough for me to disagree with a change in that direction.
The 5+ invul save, I'd also point out, is a bit less useful when you consider that it's pretty easy to get at least a 5+ cover save, so the 5+ invul would mostly be a melee thing, and I don't get the impression that sisters are prone to winning melee most of the time.
This "nubcake" is very glad that you've been enjoying your army since before acts of faith were a thing. I maintain that their mini-miracles are one of the things that makes them appealing as an army. Taking faith powers away, especially if you also made them into carapace armored troops, would leave them feeling pretty bland to me. At that point, they'd pretty much just be carapace armored veterans riding in immolators rather than chimeras or storm troopers who traded their ability to deepstrike for a supply of boltguns.
As I mentioned in my post, I'm not advocating turning sisters into aspect warriors. You had mentioned something to the effect that making t3 models more expensive but more effective didn't work, so I was pointing out that for some armies it does. I agree that's not the direction to take sisters though.
Leaving sisters in power armor doesn't preclude the possibility of giving more elite sisters 3+/5++ or 3+/4++ saves. You can simply say their faith is stronger or the Emperor smiles upon them or whatever. While I like the idea of elite, better-protected sisters, they don't have to make the "normal" sisters wear carapace armor to get that.
I actually agree that sisters should be somewhere in the ballpark of 10 to 12 points apiece. Based on your post quoted in my last post, I got the impression you were looking to lower their costs even further. You were, after all, advocating taking away special rules, weakening their armor saves, saying that lowering their points was the most important change you'd make, and pointing out that they aren't space marines.
Also, I'm fairly certain I don't have "eldar envy" considering eldar are my main army. If I really wanted to play eldar, I would just, er, play my eldar.
Nor to be condescending, which is how your earlier reply seemed tinged. Maybe we'll just pretend that we're both chill and kidding.
That 4+/5++ is supposed to be roughly Storm-equivalent. Clearly better than Guard, clearly worse than Eldar & SM, marginally better than Storms should be "just right." I think the passive save bonus and Bolter is an improvement, and I would like 3+ to be rarer. It makes a clear progression:
WS3 BS3
- 5pts T3 Sv5+ S3 AP- Guardsman
WS3 BS4
- 10 pts T3 Sv4+ S3 AP3 Stormtrooper (currently overpriced at 12 pts)
- 11 pts T3 Sv4+/5++ S4 AP5 Sister
WS4 BS4
- 13 pts T3 Sv4+ S4 AP5 Dire Avenger
- 14 pts T4 Sv3+ S4 AP5 Space Marine (UM)
The Dire Avenger being 13 pts is why Sisters cannot cost more than 12 pts, and the Stormie being worth 10 pts (9?) sets minimum at 11 pts. With IG Vets at 6 pts, one could reasonably argue that Storms should be 8 or 9 pts, but I won't quibble over that.
While Cover is often available, there is a difference between Sisters having to hug terrain and go to ground, vs striding forward into the open without a need for such. Guard have lots of Heavy Weapons, and are totally OK hanging back in the trees and rubble 24+" from the enemy. But Sisters? They need to bring Flamers and Meltas to bear at ranges of 6-9", along with double-tapping Bolters <12". Being able to stride out in the open with that automatic 5++ makes that happen. It is a design point to push the girls out of the woods, something that a straight 3+ doesn't give, because Sisters will tend to hug the trees whenever they come up against anti-MEQ forces (and there are lots of them).
Sisters have been around for a long time. Chroming them up didn't make them sell any better, but it did set some strange expectations that are out of step from their seminal release. If you want Faith to be renamed not-Psyker powers, that's fine, I'm OK with that. I just think it's not necessary, and takes focus away from the core.
I'm glad we're agreed that Sisters shouldn't be Aspects. Yay!
I'm also glad we're agreed Sisters should cost 10-12 pts, although I do find 12 pts to be a bit much for what they are.
Eldar are my largest army, and I have Sisters and Guard and Storms and SM and CSM. I would like them all to be different in meaningful ways. With the meta having so much Sv3+, it would be refreshing NOT to limit 3+ to Marines and Chaos Marines, only.
Making Sisters in to 4+ saves with no acts of faith just turns them in to nothing more than special snowflake guardsmen, and that's really kind of boring.
There's no appeal to the way you're describing them, nothing to make them stand out-- and thus no real reason for them to exist.
Hwang just wants to make Space Marines more special. He's actually on my Ignore list for his constant anti-Sisterhood trolling - he's offended by their existence because they're not Space Marines but they're just as awesome as Space Marines.. except with cooties.
deviantduck wrote: First things i'd change: Penitent engines to Elite slot. Make them MCs (but fair?) and bring back their crazy can create more hits on more hits rules. They're supposed to be a flaming cheese grater or doom. DOOOM!!
Exorcists get a dual firing mode, D6str 8 ap1, or st5 ap4 large blast. Call the second mode promethium missile or something. No anti-air missiles, that's lame.
Repentia need an all the time 4+ FNP against shooting, since their current FNP is useless being only in assault.
Celestians should be moved to troops and given an assault themed loadout with similar stats and costs to battle sisters. perhaps BS 3, WS 4, s 3, t 3 init 4, att 2
Canoness gets a jump pack and a little beefier in assault.
Bring back celestine's infinite do-overs. My favorite games were when she died on turn 1, then resurrected on turn 6 to save the day. Plus Yarrick is lonely being the last one alive when the dust settles.
Create some form of priest themed faith wagon. I picture an over the top Taurox as a form of faith bubble in the center of the army.
I really like the idea of the priest wagon. Would be even better if we could get Frateris Milita back to go with it. Cheep cannon fodder. Make them better if there is a SoB unit near them. Pretty fluffy IMO.
And Celestians into troops as non-jump assault troops is not bad either. I'd prefer being able to kit them out as Vanguard/Sternguard vets, but your sugesstion has merit as well.
I do trully miss my "can't keep her down Living Saint" Best game I had was vs Orks. Every turn she's flame and assault Gaz and his squad, he'd squish her, she'd come back, repeat. The Ork player and I were dying in laugher."will you just stay dead already! I can't get Gaz away from her!" My retributors had rended his ride to death the turn before this started.
kronk wrote: If they wear power armor, and pay for it, they should have a 3+ save. End of.
If people wanted to play female IG, they could just buy a bunch of Victoria miniatures models and call it a day.
To be fair, 4+ is not IG's territory - 5+ is.
Some IG units have 4+, but some Space Marine units (Scout squads, Recon squads) do too.
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Furyou Miko wrote: Hwang just wants to make Space Marines more special. He's actually on my Ignore list for his constant anti-Sisterhood trolling - he's offended by their existence because they're not Space Marines but they're just as awesome as Space Marines.. except with cooties.
I don't get it. He was just suggesting a change to saves? Disagreeing is one thing, but 'trolling'?
Battle Sisters wear Power Armour. This has been so ever since they were first introduced in the fluff for Rogue Trader (ie the original Warhammer 40k). Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?
Power Armour in this edition of the game means a 3+ save. Therefore Battle Sisters have a 3+ save.
GoonBandito wrote: Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?
Please, tell me more about how a naked IG captain eating two heavy bolter shots that would have blown apart normal guardsmen 'reflects the fluff'.
Because Characters, especially ones that aren't wearing pansy helmets, are way more badass than some nameless schlub and can do all sorts of cool stuff. That is straight fluff.
I'd like to see their armor be similar to the Tartaros terminator armor from FW, and for there to be 2 or 3 different variants to choose from.
All of the point costs would have to be scaled back to 7th edition which means that everything would get cheaper.
They should have a standard HQ that increases their invulnerable save of the units they join by +1 or +2 with a relic.
I'd like to see something like the chaos boon table applied to miracles and have the possibility to become a living saint mid-game.
All sisters squads should be able to purchase some kind of "holy promethium" that gives their flame weapons the deflagerate special rule, and makes any weapon with the melta special rule trade out melta for armourbane.
GoonBandito wrote: Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?
Please, tell me more about how a naked IG captain eating two heavy bolter shots that would have blown apart normal guardsmen 'reflects the fluff'.
It's simple, he was hit by a glancing blow.
He wasn't, the exact same shots would have killed any of his men.
Only if you interpret a hit within the game as a clean hit. Tabletop games, such as 40K, rarely ever shows the variables that can happen doing a firefight.
Maybe the captain didn't die from the shot, because it only glanced him lightly. Such variables are never explained to you trough the game's rules, instead GW wants you to "FORGE THE NARRITVE" on you own, or some other nonsense.
Psienesis wrote: There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.
That claim is based on ... ?
Ashiraya wrote: Obviously, they are going to be few. They are female orphans of Imperial officers with a military aptitude, strength of will, and above-average physical characteristics.
Don't underestimate just how many orphans the Imperium creates.
Psienesis wrote: They're not an "army" in the traditional sense of the word, they're "simply" the only standing military force the Ecclesiarchy is allowed to have.
This is a truism. The army of a church is by definition not an army in the traditional sense, if what one means by "traditional" is the army of a state.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: I'd like to see their armor be similar to the Tartaros terminator armor from FW, and for there to be 2 or 3 different variants to choose from.
All of the point costs would have to be scaled back to 7th edition which means that everything would get cheaper.
They should have a standard HQ that increases their invulnerable save of the units they join by +1 or +2 with a relic.
I'd like to see something like the chaos boon table applied to miracles and have the possibility to become a living saint mid-game.
All sisters squads should be able to purchase some kind of "holy promethium" that gives their flame weapons the deflagerate special rule, and makes any weapon with the melta special rule trade out melta for armourbane.
As much as I dislike the chaos boon table, I think I might actually like it in this context. Not sure why. I rather like the other suggestions as well.
@doomshakalaka: Wounds in 40k are like hitpoints in a tabletop role-playing game. If your character has 47 HP and loses some of those hitpoints to an arrow attack, it doesn't mean he was actually hit by the arrow. it means that his plot armor is a few points thinner. The arrow bounced off the armor without literally hurting him, but it also removed hitpoints. You know how the storm troopers in Star Wars get a bad reputation for not being able to hit anything? It's not that they're incompitent; it's that they're shooting at characters with too many hitpoints and too light of armor for the GM to describe them as literally hitting the enemy.
Similarly, a multi-wound character in 40k isn't literally more resilient to incoming attacks (unless of course he is). That guard commander or commissar or whatever is just luckier or more tenacious than the single wound models. Any character that makes it to two-wound status just has thicker plot armor.
For new units for the sisters, I'd like to see a few things:
Sisters with Artificer Armour, Power Lances and Storm Shields with integrated flamers. That's your CC Celestian squad, with rules based around their shieldwalls and overlapping torrents of flame. A good candidate for small units mounted in Repressors. To match them, Celestians could do with Artificer Armour as well. Celestians would also recieve a form of special issue ammo, and have options for combi-weapons.
I like the idea of the PowerLoader motif, I think a fairly customisable unit of small walkers/monstrous creatures with options for heavy weapons (holy trinity and missile launchers) or CCW with a smaller melta/flamer/stormbolter integrated.
Sisters are one of the only factions where a Lord Of War superheavy is really sensible- a giant tracked cathedral with minimal armament but potent buffing effects and incredible armour.
I don't think a biker unit makes a lot of sense, but it would look stunning. It adds little to the army, and Seraphim should have that niche covered.
Power Armour has to remain 3+, in my mind. Any attempt to change that isn't really on- Techpriests get PA (or used to last time I looked at the codex) so why not the Sisters?
4oursword wrote: For new units for the sisters, I'd like to see a few things:
Sisters with Artificer Armour, Power Lances and Storm Shields with integrated flamers. That's your CC Celestian squad, with rules based around their shieldwalls and overlapping torrents of flame. A good candidate for small units mounted in Repressors. To match them, Celestians could do with Artificer Armour as well. Celestians would also recieve a form of special issue ammo, and have options for combi-weapons.
I like the idea of the PowerLoader motif, I think a fairly customisable unit of small walkers/monstrous creatures with options for heavy weapons (holy trinity and missile launchers) or CCW with a smaller melta/flamer/stormbolter integrated.
Sisters are one of the only factions where a Lord Of War superheavy is really sensible- a giant tracked cathedral with minimal armament but potent buffing effects and incredible armour.
I don't think a biker unit makes a lot of sense, but it would look stunning. It adds little to the army, and Seraphim should have that niche covered.
Power Armour has to remain 3+, in my mind. Any attempt to change that isn't really on- Techpriests get PA (or used to last time I looked at the codex) so why not the Sisters?
I would personally prefer to let militia handle assualts to allow for the celestians to adopt a more specialized ranged unit with a choice of special rules chosen at the start (tank hunter, precision shot, etc) there is a precedent for the use of shields by the adepta sororitas in the form of the Praesidium Protectiva from dark heresy edition 1 book of martyrs role-playing game. they would probably be more in the form of an option for the basic sisters squad to replace their bolter with a combat shield and the shield wall rule (+1 toughness when models are in base contact) with maybe the shield charge rule(hammer of wrath if shield wall applies) thrown in for good measure.
i would also probably throw in a hospitallier detachment of 1-3 hospitalliers to be attached to squads of your choice as an elite choice
4oursword wrote: For new units for the sisters, I'd like to see a few things:
Sisters with Artificer Armour, Power Lances and Storm Shields with integrated flamers. That's your CC Celestian squad, with rules based around their shieldwalls and overlapping torrents of flame. A good candidate for small units mounted in Repressors. To match them, Celestians could do with Artificer Armour as well. Celestians would also recieve a form of special issue ammo, and have options for combi-weapons.
I like the idea of the PowerLoader motif, I think a fairly customisable unit of small walkers/monstrous creatures with options for heavy weapons (holy trinity and missile launchers) or CCW with a smaller melta/flamer/stormbolter integrated.
Sisters are one of the only factions where a Lord Of War superheavy is really sensible- a giant tracked cathedral with minimal armament but potent buffing effects and incredible armour.
I don't think a biker unit makes a lot of sense, but it would look stunning. It adds little to the army, and Seraphim should have that niche covered.
Power Armour has to remain 3+, in my mind. Any attempt to change that isn't really on- Techpriests get PA (or used to last time I looked at the codex) so why not the Sisters?
I would personally prefer to let militia handle assualts to allow for the celestians to adopt a more specialized ranged unit with a choice of special rules chosen at the start (tank hunter, precision shot, etc) there is a precedent for the use of shields by the adepta sororitas in the form of the Praesidium Protectiva from dark heresy edition 1 book of martyrs role-playing game. they would probably be more in the form of an option for the basic sisters squad to replace their bolter with a combat shield and the shield wall rule (+1 toughness when models are in base contact) with maybe the shield charge rule(hammer of wrath if shield wall applies) thrown in for good measure.
i would also probably throw in a hospitallier detachment of 1-3 hospitalliers to be attached to squads of your choice as an elite choice
I like the shield wall unit idea. It would be vulnerable to blasts and torrents and such, but it would make a nice "assault buffer" option. Leaving melee to millitia (assuming you mean the proposed pdf/cultist style unit) seems pretty unreliable to me as they seem to be more of a quantity than quality unit. Or do you mean the flagellants, death cultists, etc.?
Special shooting rules etc. feels like more of a dominion squad thing. I'd still prefer to see celestians get better defensive and/or assault gear or else give them some other means of distinguishing themselves.
Manchu: I actually really like power lances on strength 3 units. Provided they're priced reasonably, they make you half decent on the charge (better in some regards than howling banshees), and they still help you chop up 4+ armor and worse in subsequent rounds. Plus, they look really cool! I second the motion for a storm shield and power lance option, though I see no reason not to let that lance be swapped out for a different power weapon.
I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
Melissia wrote: I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.
And I personally don't like the "Sisters of Speed" concept. I see them trudging along at the head of the faithful: a sober, relentless line of black steel and cleansing fire backed by a surging mob of fanatics.
I guess I would like to see a Sisters book that shows more of the civilian side of the 40k setting, sort of a Codex: People of the Imperium except of course that 40k is a wargame so the book would be about the martial dimension of civilian life. Think of it as a army list for an Imperial world's first line of defense. It would have Arbites, Fratris Militia, and PDF auxilia. And the theme of the book would be, when things get really fethed up it's up to the Sisters to lead this rabble of scum under the banners of faith. Because IG are never on time and SM rarely show up at all.
Melissia wrote: I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.
And I personally don't like the "Sisters of Speed" concept. I see them trudging along at the head of the faithful: a sober, relentless line of black steel and cleansing fire backed by a surging mob of fanatics.
I guess I would like to see a Sisters book that shows more of the civilian side of the 40k setting, sort of a Codex: People of the Imperium except of course that 40k is a wargame so the book would be about the martial dimension of civilian life. Think of it as a army list for an Imperial world's first line of defense. It would have Arbites, Fratris Militia, and PDF auxilia. And the theme of the book would be, when things get really fethed up it's up to the Sisters to lead this rabble of scum under the banners of faith. Because IG are never on time and SM rarely show up at all.
Space Marines never struck me as warrior monks, though I hear this time and again.
Most of them don't even worship the Emperor as a God!!
Maybe like, spiritually disciplined mercenaries - but they never struck me as the type to go to war for religious reasons.
I would actually kind of like the idea of shields and spears instead of lances for a melee option. Give them a rule to lock shields as well. Sure they're spartans, but the point is marines should have done it and they havent.
Melissia wrote: I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
Warrior monks?
No. Holy knights defending the faith. If you'd prefer a different comparison, DnD Paladins in platemail, with subtle "miracles" rather htan divine magic.
I guess I would like to see a Sisters book that shows more of the civilian side of the 40k setting, sort of a Codex: People of the Imperium except of course that 40k is a wargame so the book would be about the martial dimension of civilian life. Think of it as a army list for an Imperial world's first line of defense. It would have Arbites, Fratris Militia, and PDF auxilia. And the theme of the book would be, when things get really fethed up it's up to the Sisters to lead this rabble of scum under the banners of faith. Because IG are never on time and SM rarely show up at all.
That's exactly what I'd like to see: a sort of Codex: War of Faith. Existing Sisters units backed up by Ecclesiarchy mobs lead by the preisthood and stark-raving mad flagellants, penitents, and torture machines. Battle-hardened Sisters that you can rely upon to do their job, big mobs of chaff to die in droves, and fiery orators whipping everyone into a frenzy. No super-heavy walkers, no gimmicky popes in termie armor, and no speeders or bikes or drop podding nonsense.
I don't get it. He was just suggesting a change to saves? Disagreeing is one thing, but 'trolling'?
Previous threads and various immature comments about boobies and orgies.
Manchu wrote:
Psienesis wrote: There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.
That claim is based on ... ?
Original 2e fluff puts them at about 24,000 in the galaxy (six major orders of between three and four thousand each), with them capping out at their 'height' at 90,000 Sisters (15,000 sisters per order, just after the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose were founded).
3rd edition fluff gave them the Minor Orders, stating that Minor Orders are between one and one thousand Sisters. Did not say anything about how large the Major Orders are.
6th edition Rulebook then has this today instead;
"The Adepta Sororitas are divided into several major Orders Militant, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors. There are also many lesser Sisterhoods comprised of around a few hundred Battle Sisters."
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the_Armyman wrote: No super-heavy walkers, no gimmicky popes in termie armor, and no speeders or bikes or drop podding nonsense.
While I agree with the rest of your points, for the most part, I vehemently demand our drop pods be reinstated, thank you.
They were Dominica-pattern (just a name change and the ability to be taken by Sisters), and our Deathwinds had heavy bolters or multi-meltas instead of missiles.
Psienesis wrote: There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.
That claim is based on ... ?
The size of the Orders Major (all six of them), the size of the two Training Convents (to which all would-be Sisters are sent from the Schola) and the cap placed on the size of the Orders Minor, all of which has been covered in the various publications about the army since its inception.
Furyou Miko wrote: They were Dominica-pattern (just a name change and the ability to be taken by Sisters), and our Deathwinds had heavy bolters or multi-meltas instead of missiles.
Psienesis wrote: all of which has been covered in the various publications about the army since its inception
And has been retconned before and as things currently stand there is no way to know how many Sisters there are.
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JohnHwangDD wrote: I'd love to see huge mobs of Cultist-type rabble on the board. That would be awesome!
Yes, a cloud of penitents on the heels of a SoB squad ... to be thrown into the fray for the Emperor! I am thinking, a blob that is mostly awful until the SoB squad starts getting down to it, whereupon they are inspired and become scary in their own right.
I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
that role is already taken by the black knights, its been that way for a while now. try grabbing some other gimmick. like maybe idk perhaps a sister on a jetbike with flamers in the nose, give them deepstrike?
Psienesis wrote: There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.
That claim is based on ... ?
The size of the Orders Major (all six of them), the size of the two Training Convents (to which all would-be Sisters are sent from the Schola) and the cap placed on the size of the Orders Minor, all of which has been covered in the various publications about the army since its inception.
Not to mention the primary Order Militant nearly being wiped out in combat and having to rebuild from practically nothing.
I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
that role is already taken by the black knights, its been that way for a while now
Sisters of Battle existed before Black Templars, so your objection is irrelevat.
Manchu wrote: Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.
No, no it isn't at all. There are many types of warrior monks within the Imperium alone who are not space marines. Sisters of Battle are warrior nuns, which is the female version of warrior monks. I'm absolutely confounded as to how you can be so utterly oblivious and ignorant regarding 40K's fluff. Have you ever read a codex at all?
I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
that role is already taken by the black knights, its been that way for a while now
Sisters of Battle existed before Black Templars, so your objection is irrelevat.
He was talking about Black Knights, just saying.
Black Templars don't actually have any special thing with bikes, so I am not sure of why their time relation to SoB designs is relevant.
Not that I am sure why the time for each faction's implementation is relevant for their sub-units.
He wasn't saying that bikes belong to a faction. He was saying that Jousting Knights as a theme/concept are already covered by Black Knights (from Dark Angels).
On the argument of Bikes vs no Bikes, rather than looking at factions, look at the game's core rules. We are talking about Fast Attack here, no disagreement I am sure. What unit types are Fast Attack? Bikes, Skimmers, Cavalry, Beasts, Infantry with special rules (Jump, Scout, Infiltrate). Did I miss anything?
Now, Scout is probably quite easy to argue for with Sisters, and Dominions already fill this role. Jump Infantry is the role Seraphim have filled since second edition and are so iconic they could not be argued against. Infiltrate? To me, this does not feel like a Sisters of Battle unit, but it could be an Ecclesiarchy unit quite easily! Beasts, IMO, would be right out (unless, say, Arco-Flagellents were reclassified as Beast) as would Cavalry: neither makes sense for Sisters, in my mind. This leaves Bikes and Skimmers are the options available under core 40K rules. Sisters already have two Infantry-based Fast Attack units, so a vehicle-based one seems the most obvious oversight. As such, I believe a new Sisters/Ecclesiarchy codex should include either something with the Bike or Skimmer rule (not both, that would be over-kill). Personally, I would like both, but some kind of Skimmer unit that, say, has a Stormbolter and a couple of Sisters hanging off with Flamers (optional Meltagun upgrade?) sounds like a pretty badarse and fluffy option. Could be over-powered too, but I am just throwing out fluff ideas: I do not propose to be an expert at balance!
I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
that role is already taken by the black knights, its been that way for a while now
Sisters of Battle existed before Black Templars, so your objection is irrelevat.
I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
that role is already taken by the black knights, its been that way for a while now
Sisters of Battle existed before Black Templars, so your objection is irrelevat.
Black Knights are Dark Angels, not Templars.
indeed and we are 2nd edition, we were in the angels of death codex and the idea of knights on horseback jousting was their to claim first. while they had no units or rules for them back then to my knowledge they were first concieved within our books. a more interesting idea would be maybe a twist on the sisters repentica with the conflagerant guilty basically its a squad of suicidal maniacs tossed out at the enemy. they rush headlong at them and then explode, perhaps have them in some kind of ultra low rent land speeder with a cheap Mass produced weapon mounted in the nose. their sole purpose is to crash into the enemy and explode and survivors of the hit are then set on fire and take an effect similar to warp flame gargoyles in a DOT.
another interesting idea is to steal a few pages out of the death guard in the form of maybe a guilty harvester squad. sisters with man reapers that charge forth from say their brand new land raider redeemer and slice peoples heads off. each on posessing a unique ability granting them rage once per turn as well as hammer of wrath we can be activated during yours or your opponents turn. (and yes that rage like effect would stack with actual rage meaning d3+d3+1 shenanigans are on the table).
another interesting concept is the idea of the seraphim, why not have cherubim teams which would be the CC ying to the seraphims dakka dakka yang. you could even have it as a dual plastic kit with eviscerators as the stock weapon, bp and chainsword being a free upgrade, and maybe some kind of upgrade in the form of combat cherubs allowing rerolls in the shooting or the assault phase for "to hit"
imo armorium cherubs should be granted to celestians they feel at home with their models as well
Elric of Grans wrote: What unit types are Fast Attack? Bikes, Skimmers, Cavalry, Beasts, Infantry with special rules (Jump, Scout, Infiltrate). Did I miss anything?
Now, Scout is probably quite easy to argue for with Sisters, and Dominions already fill this role. Jump Infantry is the role Seraphim have filled since second edition and are so iconic they could not be argued against. Infiltrate? To me, this does not feel like a Sisters of Battle unit, but it could be an Ecclesiarchy unit quite easily! Beasts, IMO, would be right out (unless, say, Arco-Flagellents were reclassified as Beast) as would Cavalry: neither makes sense for Sisters, in my mind. This leaves Bikes and Skimmers are the options available under core 40K rules. Sisters already have two Infantry-based Fast Attack units, so a vehicle-based one seems the most obvious oversight. As such, I believe a new Sisters/Ecclesiarchy codex should include either something with the Bike or Skimmer rule (not both, that would be over-kill). Personally, I would like both, but some kind of Skimmer unit that, say, has a Stormbolter and a couple of Sisters hanging off with Flamers (optional Meltagun upgrade?) sounds like a pretty badarse and fluffy option. Could be over-powered too, but I am just throwing out fluff ideas: I do not propose to be an expert at balance!
Indeed, thanks.
Sisters Seraphim are indeed the iconic Jump Infantry, which basically mean we don't need more Sisters with augmented mechanical transport. Especially not Sisters in a Rhino/Immolator Razorback, which is already a Troops choice. SM already have issues distinguishing Bikes from AMs, as the roles are so close, and Sisters would be no different. Better to avoid the mingling and overlap, and just keep the Sisters with JPs.
That said, both Cavalry and Beasts would be excellent choices to add from the Ecclesiarchy. Arco-Flagellants as Beasts is a good choice, emphasizing how they are feral and dangerous. Cheap Frateris Militia units on horses (from agrarian worlds) would make a nice contrast. And as we have FM en masse supporting Sisters, AV 11/10/9 Trucks (from higher-tech worlds) would be round things out.
Jetbikes are a non-starter: If SMs don't have Jetbikes neither will Sisters, and definitely not FM.
That leaves hypertech Skimmers / Flyers. I don't see Sisters with such as Transport, but I could see them paying a premium for super-rare Skimmer attack craft of some sort.
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ionusx wrote: a more interesting idea would be maybe a twist on the sisters repentica with the conflagerant guilty basically its a squad of suicidal maniacs tossed out at the enemy. they rush headlong at them and then explode, perhaps have them in some kind of ultra low rent land speeder with a cheap Mass produced weapon mounted in the nose. their sole purpose is to crash into the enemy and explode and survivors of the hit are then set on fire and take an effect similar to warp flame gargoyles in a DOT.
Human Bombs are an Imperial Guard Penal Legion concept that goes back to Rogue Trader. The IG have enough issues without Sisters stealing their stuff.
That said, self-martyring Human Bombs from the Frateris Militia side of the Ecclesiarchy isn't out of the question. Sisters are too valuable for that. Even fallen.
Furyou Miko wrote: Last stated number was in the 6e book, which has not been retconned since, which I quoted above.
You didn't quote a number. It's hard for me to believe that I need to explain this but X amount from 2 major orders plus approx. Y amount from unknown number ("many") lesser orders does not constitute a number. Purposefully vague fluff is purposefully vague.
Manchu wrote: Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.
Haruspex wrote: No, no it isn't at all. There are many types of warrior monks within the Imperium alone who are not space marines. Sisters of Battle are warrior nuns, which is the female version of warrior monks. I'm absolutely confounded as to how you can be so utterly oblivious and ignorant regarding 40K's fluff. Have you ever read a codex at all?
You must confound pretty easy, friendo. Let me help you overcome your lousy reading comprehension. I wasn't commenting on the 40k setting, much less disputing that Adepta Sororitas is a religious order. I was commenting about 40k factions. You know, the groups of units collected into a codex based on a theme. Being warrior monks is a major theme of Space Marines. And specifically, I was referring to Melissia's vision of the SoB as the 40k-equivalent of the historical martial orders, e.g., the Knights Templar. The SM have that covered: for example, the Black Templars. The name isn't a coincidence. (TBF neither is Orders Hospitaller.) Now obviously everyone is welcome to have their own idiosyncratic view of what a hypothetical SoB codex should be like. My point was, the trope of the crusader knight is already a strong component of the SM brand. I would like SoB to remain (importantly, not become) distinct.
Seeing that you only signed up less than 20 days ago, you would not know -- but Melissia and I have been mulling over this conversation for at least four years. But thanks for assuming I have never read a codex.
Ashiraya wrote: He was talking about Black Knights, just saying.
Slightly off-topic but does anyone else find the Black Knights to be absurd? They are what, the elites of the elites of the elites of the elites? It's like Russian nesting dolls of elitism in that chapter. I guess it has to do with the extreme paranoia of the Dark Angels, where every inner circle has an even more, er, innerer circle. It's not just the DA though. I would definitely not like to see this SM habit of spinning off ever greater hyperbole about how elite a unit is compared to some already-elite unit seep (further) into Sisters fluff.
JohnHwangDD wrote: I could see them paying a premium for super-rare Skimmer attack craft of some sort.
Okay I don't get that one at all. Sisters in skimmers? Where'd they get them? The freakin AdMech doesn't even have skimmers.
Indeed. Sisters of Battle shouldn't overlap with the Black Templars, who are more knightly than any other SM Chapter out there (esp after they got the BT Chapter Upgrade sprues). Similarly, SoB shouldn't compete with the Dark Angels and their monastic look.
Sisters aren't only Orders Militant. The Orders Militant are only a fraction of the Sisters. I wonder what the fighting portion of the Sisters is. Based on modern military tooth:tail ratios, I'd guessing that less than half of the Sisters strap on armor and Bolter. ____
As for the Sisters skimmer, I was thinking it'd be tied to their orbital / spacefaring assets, similar to Imperial Navy fighters supporting Imperial Guard. Deliberately overpriced, because they're non-core, and, as you note, extremely rare.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The Orders Militant are only a fraction of the Sisters.
True but incorporating the non-militant order into a wargame has been and remains a bit tricky. To me, they have always felt tacked on in army lists (as Inquistoiral retinue no less in C:WH) although they make perfect sense in the background.
IIRC they have none (including Valkyries and similar) just like IG. I would bet Imperial law doubles down on the ban on combined arms when it comes to the Ecclesiarchy. (Thanks Vandire!)
JohnHwangDD wrote: The Orders Militant are only a fraction of the Sisters.
True but incorporating the non-militant order into a wargame has been and remains a bit tricky. To me, they have always felt tacked on in army lists (as Inquistoiral retinue no less in C:WH) although they make perfect sense in the background.
IIRC they have none (including Valkyries and similar) just like IG. I would bet Imperial law doubles down on the ban on combined arms when it comes to the Ecclesiarchy. (Thanks Vandire!)
for the most part on non-millant orders being part of the wargame as things like the order diaglous never really work as while a land hailer is useful it is ussualy better to stick it on a more durable rhino instead. with that said hospittaliers could take a more active role as an elite choice and generally fit well with the rest of the army
the important thing to remember about adding new vehicles to the adepta sororitas is the sheer measure of loathing the adeptus mechanicus and the adeptus ministorum have for each other. hell the only reason the Ecclesiarchy managed to secure production of tanks like the exorcist and the immolator is by blackmailing the mechanicus with STC data and as shown by the book hammer & anvil the two organisations couldn't work on the same mission for longer then a week before both organisations started to think of ways to kill the other (incidentally the sisters ended up executing the last remaining techpriest by the end for the crime of being a treasonous heretic)
Vandire651 wrote: the sheer measure of loathing the adeptus mechanicus and the adeptus ministorum have for each other
Excellent point; see e.g., Moirae Schism. HOWEVER - the usual practice is to shoehorn retcon vehicles in. "Oh we've always had those fliers. For millennia, yep." Not that I mind that; it's just an artefact of GW not being able to dream everything up at once circa 1990, mention it in some obscure corner of fluff in Realms of Chaos, then eventually get around to making a model 20+ years later. As long as whatever new vehicle Sisters might get is not something startlingly high tech (like a skimmer), I don't think it would stretch credulity at all.
Seeing that you only signed up less than 20 days ago, you would not know -- but Melissia and I have been mulling over this conversation for at least four years. But thanks for assuming I have never read a codex.
Then you have been failing and losing the same argument for four years. I am very impressed. I haven't been hanging around on this site for very long because the site is poorly maintained and rarely worth the effort of a post. It seems they'll make anybody a mod regardless of their lack of reading comprehension ability and basic etiquette skills. But despite what people on this forum seem to believe, the age of one's user account has nothing to do with their gaming/modeling experience or knowledge of the setting. Maybe you should consider reading up on the fluff someday and understand that monasticism pervades the Imperium's military organizations because the Imperium is a highly religious and feudalistic society.
Haruspex wrote: Maybe you should consider reading up on the fluff someday
Do you have any recommendations? I mean, besides the dozens of codicies, FW books, BL anthologies and novels, and FFG roleplaying source books I have already read.
Haruspex wrote: I haven't been hanging around on this site for very long because the site is poorly maintained and rarely worth the effort of a post.
Sorry we don't come up to your standards. I hope you don't feel anyone is keeping you.
I'm still not sure why you are telling me the Imperium is a religious and feudal society. Nothing I have posted contradicts that. Again -- I was talking about factions product lines rather than from an in-setting perspective. Somehow you managed to conclude I don't know SoB are space nuns and that I have never read a codex. It's quite a leap ...
Haruspex wrote: Maybe you should consider reading up on the fluff someday
Do you have any recommendations? I mean, besides the dozens of codicies, FW books, BL anthologies and novels, and FFG roleplaying source books I have already read.
Start with the Sisters of Battle codices. Read them again, and pay attention this time. There are no analogues to the Knights Templar or Hospitaller among the Imperium's forces because those knightly orders were really just medieval banking organizations. But warrior monks are exactly what the Sisters of Battle are (apart from the gender specificity of the term.) You have provided no counter-argument, so I assume you agree.
In fact the "warrior monk" description suits them better than the marines, because they are formally affiliated with the Imperial priesthood like the jesuits and franciscans of the Catholic church whereas the marines have no formal religious ties.
Haruspex wrote: You have provided no counter-argument, so I assume you agree.
Technically correct, I guess ... I mean, given I have never been arguing what you think I am arguing and you have misunderstood my point from the beginning of this exchange as clarified here:
Manchu wrote: I wasn't commenting on the 40k setting, much less disputing that Adepta Sororitas is a religious order. I was commenting about 40k factions. You know, the groups of units collected into a codex based on a theme. Being warrior monks is a major theme of Space Marines. And specifically, I was referring to Melissia's vision of the SoB as the 40k-equivalent of the historical martial orders, e.g., the Knights Templar. The SM have that covered: for example, the Black Templars. The name isn't a coincidence. (TBF neither is Orders Hospitaller.) Now obviously everyone is welcome to have their own idiosyncratic view of what a hypothetical SoB codex should be like. My point was, the trope of the crusader knight is already a strong component of the SM brand. I would like SoB to remain (importantly, not become) distinct.
and here:
Manchu wrote: I'm still not sure why you are telling me the Imperium is a religious and feudal society. Nothing I have posted contradicts that. Again -- I was talking about factions as product lines rather than from an in-setting perspective. Somehow you managed to conclude I don't know SoB are space nuns and that I have never read a codex. It's quite a leap ...
have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.
This is what you said. Read it again. This is your quote. These are your words. It doesn't matter if you're talking about fluff or models. Lots of citadel models are influenced by the "warrior monk" concept and aesthetic. You are just plain wrong. Please just come out and admit it already.
Haruspex wrote: In fact the "warrior monk" description suits them better than the marines, because they are formally affiliated with the Imperial priesthood like the jesuits and franciscans of the Catholic church whereas the marines have no formal religious ties.
This is unnecessarily literal. SM are organized into chapters, reside in monasteries, call each other brother, observe formal rituals that evoke a popular contemporary image of medieval Christianity, preserve ancient knowledge, and live by a proscribed rule of conduct. One of their most obvious themes is being warrior monks. No one is saying SoB are not warrior nuns. Maybe the issue is, the historical martial orders took up the military customs and technology of the secular warrior, i.e., knights. The image of a mounted armored warrior is simply not associated with nuns. Fighting nuns may have existed in history but for off-topic reasons no iconic image of the warrior nun has come down to us as with the knight. SM are space knights, unequivocally. REMINDER: I AM TALKING ABOUT SMAS A BRAND. But SoB are something more novel. What if nuns wore power armor and wielded flame throwers? That is a more complex idea that does not have direct historical-fictional analogs, like SM have with the medieval martial religious orders.
Haruspex wrote: It doesn't matter if you're talking about fluff or models.
Sure it does -- when the topic to hand is brand distinctiveness. As in, "How can this army be distinct from that army?"
You're bobbing, weaving and sidestepping the point. You said "Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM."
There is no possible way to interpret that statement that makes it correct in any way. It is an incorrect statement. There is no context in which it is correct.
You are saying "my statement is correct with such qualifier and such qualifier and such qualifier." But this is not so. You cannot build a valid argument upon a premise that is incorrect.
You can be talking about models, background, aesthetics or branding. Yet you are wrong on all counts.
If you are saying "Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of the Space Marine brand" then you are incorrect.
If you are saying "Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of Space Marine models" then you are incorrect.
If you are saying "Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of the Space Marine aesthetic" then you are incorrect.
If you are saying "Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of the Space Marine fluff" then you are incorrect.
Nobody has ever been more wrong about anything in the history of this forum. Your wrongness is monolithic.
The SM brand covers the warrior monk/space knight angle. SoB are not that and need to continue not being that in whatever codex they may eventually get. You can write out you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong (11 times in your last post LOL) as much as you want, it makes no difference. And it certainly isn't a counter argument.
Manchu wrote: The SM brand covers the warrior monk/space knight angle.
Oho, so all of a sudden warrior monks and space knights are the same thing! The fact that you tacked on another qualifier is further evidence of your failure.
The space knight angle doesn't belong to SM either. Consider the Imperial Knights for example.
SoB are not that and need to continue not being that in whatever codex they may eventually get.
But they are. They always have been. When GW came up with them, they were thinking "what if we made an army that resembles the space marines but consists of females and is more fanatical?" This is why they look almost identical to the marines. They always have and always will. But we've already established that there is nothing unique about the marines in terms of fluff, aesthetics or branding.
Melissia wrote: I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.
Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.
Melissia and I were always been talking about knights.
Haruspex wrote: When GW came up with them, they were thinking "what if we made an army that resembles the space marines but consists of females and is more fanatical?"
I think you're technically correct on that point, if you are referring to when Sisters are first mentioned in Rogue Trader. It's not related to this conversation, however, which is nothing to do with scrapped RT concpets.
Haruspex wrote: This is why they look almost identical to the marines.
Wait so in your eyes, this:
Spoiler:
looks "almost identical" to this
Spoiler:
Or maybe this
Spoiler:
is the only picture of a Sister you've ever seen? Kind of fits with the argument you are making here:
as if SoB were not totally re-imagined ... as happened with most of RT (including re: SM). But no according to your own admission, you think SoB and SM currently look almost identical:
Haruspex wrote: This is why they look almost identical to the marines. They always have and always will.
Very well then. You've admitted that "Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM" is an incorrect statement. Because Space Marines are not the only warrior-monk themed faction in 40K. And yes, power armor looks the same no matter who's wearing it. It's power armor. Same backpacks, same pauldrons, same overall style. Don't try to throw drawings at me. You already fell back on the argument that we're talking about product lines and not fluff. Drawings are a type of fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now that I've got this shameless troll on ignore, I propose we start talking about ways GW could start to distinguish the Sisters from the Marines. Because right now the sisters are just weaker marines, and GW's aesthetic approach to the faction is little more than "marine equipment with extra churchy gubbins attached". And let's not forget boobs and thigh-high boots.
I wish the power armor really did look different from marine armor. I think the sisters could use a more baroque, heresy-era sort of design.
You said X and Y look almost identical. How can you object to me posting pictures to counter that statement? How bizarre.
You keep misreading my posts, too. Like where did I say my statement was incorrect. Let me clarify again: The warrior monk thing is squarely the province of SM -- and not SoB. SoB are nuns for sure and SoB are warriors for sure. Yep, they're warrior nuns. It has nothing to do with my response to Melissia.
IRL some Christian monks decided to fight -- and in their time and place that made them a kind of knight. The image of these men comes down to us today and has inspired GW when they were creating the SM IP. But there is no corresponding image that has come down to us of warrior nuns (regardless of any fighting they may have actually done) to inspire SoB IP. SoB IP, as it has been since RT, is slightly more original. And I think they have done a nice job (overall) of not letting SoB slip into MEQ territory, thematically.
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Human Bombs are an Imperial Guard Penal Legion concept that goes back to Rogue Trader. The IG have enough issues without Sisters stealing their stuff.
That said, self-martyring Human Bombs from the Frateris Militia side of the Ecclesiarchy isn't out of the question. Sisters are too valuable for that. Even fallen.
So it's okay for Frateris to 'steal' them? What?
And well, Repentia are fairly not-valuable... They frequently charge enemy lines on foot without any armour at all!
And well, Repentia are fairly not-valuable... They frequently charge enemy lines on foot without any armour at all!
Do people really have an issue with one imperial faction having access to things that other imperial factions have? The Imperium ain't a swiss army knife, it's a giant bloody hammer. I kind of miss the RT days when anybody could have boltguns or power armor.
Haruspex wrote: Very well then. You've admitted that "Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM" is an incorrect statement. Because Space Marines are not the only warrior-monk themed faction in 40K. And yes, power armor looks the same no matter who's wearing it. It's power armor. Same backpacks, same pauldrons, same overall style. Don't try to throw drawings at me. You already fell back on the argument that we're talking about product lines and not fluff. Drawings are a type of fluff.
just because manchu misworded two words when explaining that he was been having the same argument with Melissa does not mean that you've won a point in the argument that sisters main theme is that of crusading knightly orders like the Templar or Teutonic knights. it just means that there has been a misunderstanding which is now cleaned up
and regarding power Armour the design of the adepta sororitas compared to the space marine shows a differing philosophy, with the sisters of battle being sleek and light weight(dark heresy has it as only 35 kg) with just enough strength enhancement to reliably use bolters and a focus on low cost, mass production with little encumbrance due to it's relatively low size. space marine Armour focus more on the 8 foot walking tank theme with the 200+ kg weight and 2 inch thick ceramic plate.
Just to clarify, I am not saying Melissia's preferred interpretation is wrong or totally unfounded in the setting (I even already conceded that it is no coincidence one of the non-militant orders is called the Orders Hospitaller). So while there is certainly a component of that, which seems to be one of the most important themes if not the main theme of the SM, SoB are (a) very distinct from that and (b) are in a way more novel since they could not simply be based on an easy reference to the image of the medieval martial orders.
just because manchu misworded two words when explaining that he was been having the same argument with Melissa does not mean that you've won a point in the argument that sisters main theme is that of crusading knightly orders like the Templar or Teutonic knights.
Just for the record, nobody in 40K resembles the Knights Templar or Teutonic knights. Both the marines and sisters are drawn from a fantastical pseudo-historical perspective on monastic knightly orders. Marines obviously don't have a monopoly on the crusader theme. Everyone who fights for the Imperium is a holy crusader.
Ashiraya wrote: And well, Repentia are fairly not-valuable...
This is thorny. Repentia deem their own lives forfeit. Seems like their sisters understand they are not really fit for normal duties under the circumstances. Their actions in battle are an extreme form of penitence. I don't think we should interpret their religious devotion as the Order just throwing them away because they are no longer valuable, like Penal Legion convicts. In a sense, Repentia embody the highest ideals of the Adepta Sororitas even though they consider themselves to be grave sinner. So they are really quite valuable.
Well, Dark Heresy is a really bad source for Sisters fluff, since it ignores huge parts of the Sisterhood information that already exists.
I mean, come on, it gives them masterwork light power armour. Sororitas power armour is explicitly equal in protection to full Space Marine power armour. Dark Heresy claims they need to earn their helmets in battle, and "can fight cultists and sometimes even orks". It's utterly stupid. It doesn't take the Sisters seriously as a faction at all.
Nobody claims that fighting orks is some kind of major achievement for the guard, but apparently its the height of the Sisterhood's achievements.
________________________________________
Beware what you fish for with new units. I'm still fairly convinced that our 'new super-unit' is going to be Sisters riding giant psyber-eagles that count as Flying Monstrous Creatures.
Vandire651 wrote: regarding power Armour the design of the adepta sororitas compared to the space marine shows a differing philosophy
This is another excellent point. Perhaps SoB power armour is designed to emphasize the humanity of the wearer. Everything about SM, by contrast, seems designed to inspire fear and awe.
Furyou Miko wrote: It doesn't take the Sisters seriously as a faction at all.
TBF this is a problem to a greater or lesser extent for Sisters fluff wherever it appears.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'm still fairly convinced that our 'new super-unit' is going to be Sisters riding giant psyber-eagles that count as Flying Monstrous Creatures.
Furyou Miko wrote: Sororitas power armour is explicitly equal in protection to full Space Marine power armour.
According to one source. Not even codices are entirely reliable in 40k. Would anyone take me seriously if I asserted that Terminators are invincible? (Which I do have a source for, the SM codex specifically.)
I have eyes, so I do not intend to buy that their armour provides equal protection anytime soon.
The whole 'We have boob armour so we can show off our curves and how feminine we are to everyone but we have equal protection to the walking tanks anyway because reasons!' line is bad anime level bullgak.
You sacrifice your armour integrity and wear thin armour (and yes, it's thin, the majority of depictions show it as significantly thinner than Astartes plate even if I am sure one or two pictures contradict that) so that you can show off how you are not men under arms, sure, but you don't get to magically keep all its resilience for that. There is nothing to suggest that every SoB walks around in artificer armour (which is what would be necessary for equal protection).
Yeah, Repentia are not throw-away refuse. They are seeking redemption in death, but clearly their death has to mean something or they could just be executed or commit some form of ritual suicide. They are clearly seeking martyrdom through standing for a righteous cause.
That said, I still do not consider them truly an 'elite' unit. Their basic design (unarmoured human assault unit with Evicerators) was never going to be functional under the rules of the game. I like the fluff concept of the unit, but it really needs a complete rules overhaul to be practical.
Should Repentia even be a unit in and of themselves? How about if they were an upgrade to a Frateris Militia unit? Similar to how most units can upgrade one model in X to have a special weapon, one in X Frateris Militia can be a Sister Repentia fighting alongside them? She would be serving a cause, and her presence (still a holy warrior of the Ecclesiarchy) would help rile the religious fervour of the militia. Just an idea.
I think GW should definitely go for the crusaders/templar angle if they ever get around to doing a new SoB codex. Obviously they fit the role better than Space Marines. Real crusaders included civilians from all walks of life, which is what the SoB are all about (at least in older incarnations that included preachers and zealots/militia.) Marines don't just let random beggars into their ranks, and the IG has enough problems with discipline without mobs of fanatics jumping in front of their guns.
Ashiraya wrote: The whole 'We have boob armour so we can show off our curves and how feminine we are to everyone but we have equal protection to the walking tanks anyway because reasons!' line is bad anime level bullgak.
You sacrifice your armour integrity and wear thin armour (and yes, it's thin, the majority of depictions show it as significantly thinner than Astartes plate even if I am sure one or two pictures contradict that) so that you can show off how you are not men under arms, sure, but you don't get to magically keep all its resilience for that. There is nothing to suggest that every SoB walks around in artificer armour (which is what would be necessary for equal protection).
Hold up those are two different lines of thought.
Sisters do not need thin armour to be obviously feminine. The AdMech could layer on boob shaped plates of armor onto thick slabs of ceramite, after all.
Seems to me that Sisters do not wear SM-style armour because they cannot. No black carapace and all that. I know that there are huge sets of armour out there that I guess Inquisitors wear maybe (?) without a black carapace analog. But that seems to be pretty rare stuff. Sisters need power armour wearable by normal humans and they need thousand or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands or whatever, let's just say lots and lots of suits of it.
To some degree, we are circling the drain of discussing tech in the 40k setting as if it were real ... which is a losing proposition for all of us. Sisters (and SM and Eldar and Orks and everyone else) look the way they do because someone designed them to look a certain way, not to suit any sense of realism much less some well-developed ideas about how tech in this grim but ultimately cartoonish setting might actually work.
Yes, at least I really really think so. So first, I think your idea of being able to take one Repentia per X Fratris Militia at X cost as an upgrade is dead cool, I mean just awesome stuff. It ties in very nicely to what I have been posting (for years) about SoB demonstrating their faith by inspiring other normal humans to greater feats of martial zealotry. The only issue I have with that, and I do think it's a biggie, is that you would not be able to access Repentia without taking Fratris Militia and I would like any prospective dex to have the flexibility so that you could take an all-Sisters list ... which needs to include all Sisters, including Repentia ... or take a "at the head of the faithful" style list. I really do love your idea but I love it mostly in addition to rather than as a substitute for a unit of Repentia.
Ashiraya wrote: 40k may not be entirely realistic, but it also needs to successfully suspend disbelief.
In this case, it fails to suspend mine.
Sure, that is understandable. Different people are going to experience this for different things. For some, the apelike fungi warriors with cockney accents are the straw that breaks the camel's back. For others, it is the thickness to protection ratio of SoB power armour. It's just a matter of taste I think.
Ashiraya wrote: 40k may not be entirely realistic, but it also needs to successfully suspend disbelief.
In this case, it fails to suspend mine.
I've never been able to suspend my disbelief to the point where I can accept that 10 soldiers can fit inside a rhino or that armor will somehow protect my soldiers from artillery explosions and flamethrowers when they're not wearing their helmets.
It's not really possible to suspend your disbelief when you're watching, say, Looney Tunes. You just accept it for what it is while acknowledging that no part of it could ever correspond to reality. 40K is the same way.
Killsmith wrote: Real crusaders included civilians from all walks of life, which is what the SoB are all about
Yes -- crusaders did constitute a varied group. But the martial orders themselves did not. So to the extent we are talking about modelling Sisters on the martial orders (and I think GW would need to tread carefully on that perilous "let's make everyone SM even in WHFB" territory they love) then you need a very stark line in the book between SoB units and "everything else" (Fratris Militia, Arbites, PDF).
Manchu wrote: Sure, that is understandable. Different people are going to experience this for different things. For some, the apelike fungi warriors with cockney accents are the straw that breaks the camel's back. For others, it is the thickness to protection ratio of SoB power armour. It's just a matter of taste I think.
I hope that was not a thinly veiled 'how can you consider X illogical when Y exists' argument!
Killsmith wrote: Real crusaders included civilians from all walks of life, which is what the SoB are all about
Yes -- crusaders did constitute a varied group. But the martial orders themselves did not.
The martial orders could not field armies at all. They were too few in number. If there were a thousand knights on the battlefield, they'd be backed up by twenty thousand non-order infantry.
Space Marines are supposed to work this way, with thousands of support personnel/servitors for every marine. But these guys don't show up on the tabletop. Presently the Imperium has its all-elite armies and its all-cannon-fodder armies. But there is no middle ground, no army of elites supported by grunts.
If you want GW to make the sisters themselves unique, I doubt any such thing will ever happen. From 2nd edition they were conceived to be the elites of the religious/fanatical wing of the Imperium. They are nothing without the ecclesiarchy, so in my opinion it would make no sense to partition them from the rest of the ministorum. Then you have to consider that GW will probably never make another SoB codex, but they absolutely will never even consider making a unique codex for the rest of the ministorum.
GW is such a bizarre company. They give us hope and almost look like they still know how to deal with their own IP when the produce things like Harlequins or the two AdMech codexes. But then, even with nearly 30 years worth of existing fluff, they can't write their way out of a wet paper bag when it comes to writing a good CSM codex. The Ecclesiarchy angle would be so easy to approach when designing a new SoB codex for the same reason why a CSM codex *should* be a cakewalk.
As far as Repentia go, I quite like their original incarnation.
The original Repentia was a single pseudo-character attached to a regular squad. She had no armour, and was armed with a bolt pistol and a chainsword. She effectively fought as a regular member of the unit... until the unit lost a combat and broke.
At which point, the Repentia would get a stat boost (I don't remember the specifics) and Fearless, then leave the squad. The regular squad fall back normally, but the Repentia remains locked in combat and prevents the enemy from making a Sweeping Advance.
Your argument is still complete and utter nonsense.
Also Manchu, Sisters of Battle have always been "nuns with guns" in some manner or other, IE, the female version of warrior monks-- remember Sister Sin? She actually had a wimple. Maybe it's just me being an avid roleplayer, but "crusading knight": and "warrior monk" aren't always the same thing, though they have a lot of parallels. The way they have developed since first edition makes me think of Sisters of Battle as Knights Hospitaller-- defenders of the faith, paladins of virtue, with non-militant orders that take care of the people-- as how they've always been intended to be depicted. There's no need for them to BECOME this, they've always been that at least to some extent.
I really don't like the fan-depiction of sisters as undisciplined, barely controlled fanatics. That's what Khorne Berserkers are for. Sisters, by their very nature, are bathed in discipline from day one. The strict ascetic lifestyle of the Sisters is something every Sisters codex has emphasized. They aren't Imperial Berserkers, but rather, highly disciplined and organized Ecclesiarchal Paladins.
Thus my argument that new units should represent this to some extent. The "bike rider with power lance" thing is just another way to depict this, as knights were often mounted. The other ways involve fast, armored transports, the "horse" as it were of the modern army-- that is to say, mechanization.
Unsurprisingly, my Sisters army is mechanized.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: At which point, the Repentia would get a stat boost (I don't remember the specifics) and Fearless, then leave the squad. The regular squad fall back normally, but the Repentia remains locked in combat and prevents the enemy from making a Sweeping Advance.
This is a great idea, and I would actually not mind that!
I wouldn't really call SoB 'paladins' - typically, Paladins are heroic Lawful Good types, whereas SoB are, like most Imperial organisations, Lawful Evil.
Ashiraya wrote: I wouldn't really call SoB 'paladins' - typically, Paladins are heroic Lawful Good types, whereas SoB are Lawful Evil.
The Adepta Sororitas set up and defend hospitals which hare open to all Imperial citizens, regardless of wealth or standing. That's not something Lawful Evil characters do. The Imperium itself may not be good, but people and organizations within it can be.
Ashiraya wrote: I wouldn't really call SoB 'paladins' - typically, Paladins are heroic Lawful Good types, whereas SoB are Lawful Evil.
The Adepta Sororitas set up and defend hospitals which hare open to all Imperial citizens, regardless of wealth or standing. That's not something Lawful Evil characters do. The Imperium itself may not be good, but people and organizations within it can be.
They still set you on fire if you do not praise their religion often and fervently enough, not to mention what happens to those who choose a different religion altogether.
They're like Sauron's Mordor orcs in terms of morals, just cleaner.
I am sure individual low-ranking Hospitallers can be really good people, but the Sororitas organisation is incredibly evil.
Ashiraya wrote: They still set you on fire if you do not praise their religion often and fervently enough
As long as you pay your tithes, obey the laws, and don't worship Chaos, I would say the Imperium in general and the Sisters of Battle in specific aren't going to burn you alive.
Ashiraya wrote: not to mention what happens to those who choose a different religion altogether.
That only applies to Chaos or Xeno worship. The Imperial Cult has shown itself to tolerate (and in many cases, accept) worship of alternate religions-- so long as they can be interpreted so that the God-Emperor is at the top, and Chaos influence is not present.
I'm not saying the Ecclesiarchy is "good", but that they aren't as tyrannical or monolithic as you seem to claim.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ashiraya wrote: I am sure individual low-ranking Hospitallers can be really good people, but the Sororitas organisation is incredibly evil.
On the contrary, it is full of people with noble goals and who are willing to sacrifice themselves to help others-- in fact, that is the defining feature of the organization. Adepta Sororitas sacrifice themselves to help others; martyrdom for the Imperium is a core concept, and almost all mentions of martyrdom are done defending the people of the Imperium.
Ashiraya wrote: If conquered, they will accept the occupation, but they will remain entirely atheistic.
We're really getting off topic here. Suffice it to say, if they pay their tithes and don't worship Chaos, they will be tolerated, while the Ecclesiarchy works to try to convert them. What happens at this point depends on the needs of the author; sometimes, the Ecclesiarchy will succeed in converting the world over the course of generations of effort (indeed, this is how the Ecclesiarchy generally works, subverting the cultures and religions of newly integrated worlds in to the culture and religion of the Imperium). Other times, they'll simply just keep trying, viewing the tithes from the world as justifying its continued existence while having a very tense relationship with the world's populace. And other times, a hardass puritan inquisitor or power-hungry ecclesiarchal official will instigate a purge. All three are perfectly valid ways to write in the Imperium, and variations of all three exist within 40k lore.
Maybe it's just me being an avid roleplayer, but "crusading knight": and "warrior monk" aren't the same thing. I think Sisters of Battle as Knights Hospitaller
They may not be the same thing in all cases, but the Knights Hospitaller were both crusading knights and warrior monks. They employed secular "temp" knights as well. But Sisters definitely form a closer parallel with the medieval knightly orders than marines do, because those knightly orders were literally the militant wing of the Catholic Church just as the Sisters are the (most) militant wing of the Ecclesiarchy.
Marine chapters on the other hand are independent monastic kingdoms. They have no ties to the Imperium's "Church" and are often likely to find themselves in direct conflict with it because they answer to nobody. I would compare them to the Cathars and similar non-Catholic Christian sects. They worship the same God, but they do it in their own way and that makes the ecclesiarchy unhappy.
Ashiraya wrote: I hope that was not a thinly veiled 'how can you consider X illogical when Y exists' argument!
I wouldn't call it thinly veiled.
But I do honestly think this "verisimilitude line" think it's purely a matter of taste ... i.e., what seems like a deal breaker to one person is invisible to another.
Killsmith wrote: in my opinion it would make no sense to partition them from the rest of the ministorum
It could be that our wires got crossed, so to speak, as I have been arguing for a Sisters book that contains stuff like Fratris Militia. What I meant by drawing a stark line between SoB and non-SoB units in a prospective codex was along these lines:
Manchu wrote: I would like any prospective dex to have the flexibility so that you could take an all-Sisters list ... which needs to include all Sisters, including Repentia ... or take a "at the head of the faithful" style list.
Melissia wrote: Sisters of Battle have always been "nuns with guns" in some manner or other, IE, the female version of warrior monks
Whew, I thought I had dealt with this "warrior monk" issue exhaustively already. But here we go again: even if we agree that nuns are female monks, and warrior monks (in terms of medieval Christianity) were knights, female warrior monks (warrior nuns) are NOT therefore also knights. There is no iconic image in pop culture of an armored woman fighting under religious vows. That is something that's actually pretty original to GW. This is probably one of the reasons Sister Sin looks so bizarre. I think it's almost certainly the reason that the currently-canon image of Sisters are not just ladies wearing SM-style power armour, as Sister Sin seemed to be.
Ashiraya wrote: They still set you on fire if you do not praise their religion often and fervently enough, not to mention what happens to those who choose a different religion altogether.
That's certainly evil in our place and time. But compared to IRL the entire 40k setting shifts decidedly toward the evil end of the spectrum. Good in 40k is somewhere between Neutral and Evil in 40k and often enough also into the evil territory.
Ashiraya wrote: I wouldn't really call SoB 'paladins' - typically, Paladins are heroic Lawful Good types, whereas SoB are Lawful Evil.
The Adepta Sororitas set up and defend hospitals which hare open to all Imperial citizens, regardless of wealth or standing. That's not something Lawful Evil characters do. The Imperium itself may not be good, but people and organizations within it can be.
I beg to differ, I have a high level Lawful Evil Cleric who does that kind of thing all of the time...now it is to piss of the LG Paladins by being able to say "So when was the last time you raised a peasant from the dead free of charge."
Manchu wrote: There is no iconic image in pop culture of an armored woman fighting under religious vows.
*coughJoanofArccuough*
That said, there is an iconic image of an unarmoured woman fighting under religious vows. Shaolin. Ng Mui, and Yim Wing Chun.
That's certainly evil in our place and time. But compared to IRL the entire 40k setting shifts decidedly toward the evil end of the spectrum. Good in 40k is somewhere between Neutral and Evil in 40k and often enough also into the evil territory.
Oh, no. I absolutely agree with Ashi that the Sisterhood is Lawful Evil. It's the ONLY thing I agree with her on regarding the Sisterhood, but she has that right.
A lawful evil government will provide succour to its people, because it knows that they are the only thing keeping said government in power.
A lawful evil church will look after and care for its flock, because otherwise they will overthrow the church and bring chaos.
A 'Good' church would have orphanages through out the galaxy that teach children their letters and numbers and then support them to find their own careers. It looks after the children for the childrens' sake.
The Ecclesiarchy... has orphanages through out the galaxy that teaches the privileged children of its loyal adherents their letters and numbers, and then assigns them to work in either their administrative arm, military arm, investigative arm or disciplinary arm. It raises the children to support itself and propagate its own power.
If the Hospitallers run field hospitals, it is because they recognise that the church needs followers. It's a microcosm of the entire Imperium in that way. The High Lords don't give a rat's arse about the menials in hives... but they'll send an army to protect them against invading orks, because without the common menial, there is no Imperium.
1) Order tactics for the main Orders and their descedant minor Orders
2) Several "new" Special Characters such as Canoness Praxedes of Ophelia VII and Canonness Grace from the recent Shield of Baal Campaign - ie:
Spoiler:
Cannoness Magda Grace, The Martyr Saint of Lysios, HQ Choice (90pts)
Warlord Trait: Beacon of Faith WS5, BS5, S3, T3, W3, I4, A3, 3+/6++, LD10
Unit type: Infantry (Special Character)
Special Rules: Act of Faith, Crack Shot, Eternal Warrior, Independent Character, Matrydom, Shield of Faith, Stubborn,
Wargear: Book of St. Lucius, Master crafted Bolt Pistol, Master crafted Bolt-gun, Power armour, Chainsword, Frag grenades, Krak Grenades,
Crack Shot: Magda Grace may-reroll all missed shots with a Bolt Pistol or Boltgun and may fire in overwatch with these weapons at her normal ballistic skill.
Act of Faith: The Passion
It was then that the Lictors attacked…… Atop the hull of the exorcist missile she had chosen for her pulpit, Magda Grace suddenly pitched forwards with a cry of surprise. A long limbed beast loomed out of the shadows of the tank’s missile array to stoop over her, blade-like limbs stabbing down fast. They clanged from metal alone, for the cannoness had rolled with the impetus of the beasts previous blow instead of fighting it. She clattered down the front if the exorcist to land in a loose crouch. Without looking she drew her engraved bolt pistol, reached back over her head and pulled the trigger. Her instincts were true. The bolt plunged right between the creature’s eyes and detonated, painting the front of the Exorcist with contents of its cranium.
3) Palatine as another viable HQ option
4) Frateris Militia Band as a Troops option
5) Dominca pattern Drop Pod
If the SoB get Frateris Militia, it would be cool if you could get Redemptionist Cults as an option, either as an upgrade or possibly be unlocked by a special character. I just like the idea of a squad of, even by Imperial standards, religious extremists who's only goal is to set fire to something and then gloriously martyr themselves in the name of Emperor. Maybe even give them exterminators (one-shot flamers) to provide a nice distraction - if you don't gun them down, they will spew a load of fire over your units.
I think adding some non-Sister units to the codex would be good, so i guess im advocating codex Ecclesiarchy. I think treating the Sisters as "Warrior Monks" is a good idea as it does present a certain image, which is generally how i have viewed them. Except Repentia, ive always thought of them as a bit Berzerker ish, but i feel a religious army needs a few of those.
Anyway, im largely ok with the Sister's current book. I mean its not great but it isnt unusable past 1500 points. Im looking at you 5th ed. I just dont like a few things about it.
1. The Living Saint doesnt have Eternal Warrior. This isnt negotiable, she needs this.
2. Not enough cheap infantry. Yes i can ally Guard but i like my book being mostly self contained.
3. Not enough uses of Acts of Faith
Honestly i liked the system the 5th ed "codex" used for Acts of Faith, you just didnt get enough frelling points to actually use them in games over 1000 points, if that could be remedied i think Sisters would be in a much better place.
I think in general more options would help tremendously.
Grimmor wrote: I think treating the Sisters as "Warrior Monks" is a good idea as it does present a certain image, which is generally how i have viewed them. Except Repentia, ive always thought of them as a bit Berzerker ish, but i feel a religious army needs a few of those.
A lot of warrior monks in history were berzerkers, more or less. In the west the word "monk" has connotations of tranquility, meditation, discipline and asceticism. But that only describes one type of monk. Tibetan Buddhist monks used to be some of the meanest and bloodthirstiest people in history, and the crusader orders were basically guys who turned genocide into a business.
Grimmor wrote: I think treating the Sisters as "Warrior Monks" is a good idea as it does present a certain image, which is generally how i have viewed them. Except Repentia, ive always thought of them as a bit Berzerker ish, but i feel a religious army needs a few of those.
A lot of warrior monks in history were berzerkers, more or less. In the west the word "monk" has connotations of tranquility, meditation, discipline and asceticism. But that only describes one type of monk. Tibetan Buddhist monks used to be some of the meanest and bloodthirstiest people in history, and the crusader orders were basically guys who turned genocide into a business.
Im not disagreeing, but they didnt fight like berserkers. They were far more disciplined and controllable. Now i feel the army should have a few crazed Berserker type units as thts what religion does to people in WH40k
Manchu wrote: But here we go again: even if we agree that nuns are female monks, and warrior monks (in terms of medieval Christianity) were knights, female warrior monks (warrior nuns) are NOT therefore also knights.
note: I keep wanting to edit this to make it more polite, as I feel it might be a little too much... but I keep feeling like every time I do it reduces the impact, so I end up not editing it. I hope you understand that I'm not really trying to insult you, I just am in a mood where it's hard for me to express myself without being blunt.
So? Historically, this is because of a combination of double standards (which, even to this day, we are still overcoming) on how men and women should act, as well as the traditional bias of historians that made them gloss over the existence of women in history, never mind the achievements. So even if they do exist, proof of their existence is found only in obscure, dusty places of knowledge that no one outside of lifetime historians would even bother to look, and usually not even them, either. So they might have existed but were minor and unrecorded because no one thought them notable because they're women and who cares what those silly womenfolk do. Or they might not.
But that's irrelevant, for several reasons. First off, 40k is a game, and therefor makes acceptable breaks from reality. And if, in a world full of psychic ninja space elves, drunken barbarian fungus men who make tech work by sheer willpower, and blue-grey skinned communist fishcowbirds, nun-knights are an unacceptable break from reality to you, I would find that unfathomably petty of you and openly wonder what is wrong with you. Second off, 40k is set 38,000 years in the future, therefor there could easily have been societies in that time that defied the history up until this point (and there was, the Daughters of the Emperor-- an order of warrior nuns from the planet of San Leor, whom eventually became the Sisters of Battle). Thirdly, 40k is not a realistic historical setting, so I simply don't care whether or not there's historical precedence, and I'm boggled as to why you care about pointless historical trivia in a discussion such as this.
The updates I would most like to see include:
1) return of the frateris militia (there's nothing like having a few priests whipping the populace into a zealous mob)
2) use of Faith Points for psychic denial (matching faith against the psycher)
3) anti-air options (either as a stand-alone or modified Ret Squad, or for the Exorcist)
4) assault vehicle
I'd quite like to add a Sabine option for Priests, too - doesn't have to be anything complicated, just a label and a bit of fluff, really, to change the priest entry so that it could represent a Sister Sabine instead.
A Pronatus unit wielding archeotech could be nice too, but unnecessary.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'd quite like to add a Sabine option for Priests, too - doesn't have to be anything complicated, just a label and a bit of fluff, really, to change the priest entry so that it could represent a Sister Sabine instead.
A Pronatus unit wielding archeotech could be nice too, but unnecessary.
Not content with male shepherds leading the female herd?
Actually no - the Sabine's role, fluff wise, is more like a missionary than a cleric. I will never understand why they decided to rename the missionaries to 'priests' when they updated the codex.
Furyou Miko wrote: Actually no - the Sabine's role, fluff wise, is more like a missionary than a cleric. I will never understand why they decided to rename the missionaries to 'priests' when they updated the codex.
Especially since Missionaries where actually trained at combat, so they should be better than Priests. Honestly i wouldnt mind having both as Priests are good in their own right.
I'm not going to even attempt a discussion about history when the water is already poisoned with ideologically-driven conspiracy theories masquerading as gender studies. And why should I? It's irrelevant. Nothing I have posted is an argument from history. I have been extremely careful about this actually, pointed it out multiple times, and I make no apologies to folks who have not read or cannot read carefully enough to grasp as much. My point has been: for whatever reasons, which are totally immaterial to this discussion, the image of an armoured male warrior who lives in an exclusively male community under religious rule has come down to us from the medieval period and that image has been a primary influence on the development of the Space Marine brand. In developing the SoB brand, GW was dreaming up something more original and complicated than Space Marines and it is precisely that originality that is so extremely important for the future of the Sisters as a part of the 40k IP. It's pretty fair to sum up SM as "space knights" but you can't sum up Adpeta Sororitas that way.
As befits the most ancient custom of monasticism, the SM live apart from society at large. Apart from the literal fortress monasteries in which they reside, a SM chapter world is even set apart from the wider imperium in tax grade and ecclesiarchical influence ... exactly as IRL monasteries have traditionally enjoyed autonomy from both civil and ordinary diocesan authorities. SoB, by stark contrast, seem to be an integral part of the fabric of Imeprial society. You will find Sisters serving as important members of influential system courts; as diplomats, advisers, and bodyguards. When a system is threatened, it is the Sisters who as often as not are already there -- not the IG and certainly not some aloof SM chapter.
Additionally -- sex/gender is NOT irrelevant when we talk about SoB. How could it be? We are talking about an exclusively female religious order. And they don't just happen to be exclusively female, either. The loophole in the Decree Passive about the Ecclesiarchy maintaining no men under arms was not some kind of mistake based on a reckless use of language. Sebastian Thor was not an idiot. And the precursor organization of the SoB was in no way obscure at that time: the Daughters/Brides of the Emperor had played a major role in both the apostate reign of Goge Vandire and his overthrow. The gender-based loophole in the Decree Passive therefore could only have been intentional. Thor and his collaborators consciously and willfully decided that the Ecclesiarchy should be defended by a group of women rather than men. Sex/gender is clearly not immaterial to the culture of the Imperium, at least as a matter of Ecclesiarchical politics, as a lot of posters seem to assume.
The whole "Sisters are Knights / SMs are Knights" confusion and overlap is a lot of the reason why Sisters don't sell. They're geared like SMs, but they're not as good because they don't have the statline, nor any of the high tech stuff, nor any of the long range gear. And the models cost a lot more. Sisters lack the notion of being walking heraldry, along with the conversion bitz to tailor the army to a personal vision.
But they have ridiculous "boob plate" armor which flies in face of the tech as described in 40k. They are fundamentally flawed in concept and execution, the Dan to Ultramarines Ryu and Black Legion Ken, rather than Sakura (much less Akuma).
Worse, they attract some of the most difficult adherents on the board who simply can't see that the army as-is is precisely why it cannot succeed.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The whole "Sisters are Knights / SMs are Knights" confusion and overlap is a lot of the reason why Sisters don't sell. They're geared like SMs, but they're not as good because they don't have the statline, nor any of the high tech stuff, nor any of the long range gear. And the models cost a lot more. Sisters lack the notion of being walking heraldry, along with the conversion bitz to tailor the army to a personal vision.
I kind of agree with you, insofar as I think there is some serious MEQ envy denial going around in SoB circles, but it's also unfair to judge the potential of a line based on its confused, neglected form. Look at DE or Necrons before their long overdue updates in contrast to today. The same could be done with Sisters. Of course, just as some folks prefer the more one-dimensional version of Necrons, there will always be folks who basically wants Sisters to be "SM but even better" in one way or another. And if whoever designs a SoB upgrade feels the same, the resulting line will be a failure.
Sure, but it's kind of a circular issue. Someone in the studio loves (loved) DE and Necrons, so they got stuff. Sisters are these stock models that resist personalization by both fluff (black, white and red; limited Orders) and physical model (metal, very hard to convert).
You can far more easily get away with pink SMs a la desert "Pink Panthers" and pink CWE than pink Sisters. That's a problem. Same with ordering (or printing / casting) alternate heads / shoulderpads for SMs and IGs.
Sisters aren't even compelling in the Studio, hence bland maintenance releases versus someone championing them into something more significant. With all-new customizable plastics (which are harder to do, because the parts are smaller).
Really, it's like the neglect of the Squats, pre-Squatting, except GW said they woudln't Squat anything ever again.
Let's not gloss over the Necron example there -- someone loved Necrons so much that they completely overhauled their background and the miniatures line. SoB have potential in the same way Necrons had potential.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Sure, but it's kind of a circular issue. Someone in the studio loves (loved) DE and Necrons, so they got stuff. Sisters are these stock models that resist personalization by both fluff (black, white and red; limited Orders) and physical model (metal, very hard to convert).
You can far more easily get away with pink SMs a la desert "Pink Panthers" and pink CWE than pink Sisters. That's a problem. Same with ordering (or printing / casting) alternate heads / shoulderpads for SMs and IGs.
Sisters aren't even compelling in the Studio, hence bland maintenance releases versus someone championing them into something more significant. With all-new customizable plastics (which are harder to do, because the parts are smaller).
Really, it's like the neglect of the Squats, pre-Squatting, except GW said they woudln't Squat anything ever again.
Yeah but bizarely they foccussed loads of attention (and presumably money) on them in Shield of Baal - fluff, new artwork, coolness - the works - except no new models or rules - bizare or what?
I was thinking about this earlier, it would be nice if Sisters had Rocket Launchers. Seriously IIRC every IoM army pre Ad Mech had Rocket Launchers, except them and thats a big deal because the Rocket Launcher is the swiss army knife of weapons. Horde/Light Infantry? Frag Rocket. MEQs/Vehicles Krak Rocket. Now its great that Multimelta and Heavy Flamers are so easy to get (seriously we can spam the crap out of those) but a general utility weapon would be great.
You're reading too much in to what I said. It's not that there was a conscious effort to conspire to do this. It was simply how society functioned at the time. Unconscious bias is present even today, and furthermore, it provably exists even today even after having confronted a lot of society's problems. To say that it's a conspiracy theory to point out that it existed back then, centuries before the feminist movement gained steam, is disingenuous; I expect better from you.
Manchu wrote: It's pretty fair to sum up SM as "space knights" but you can't sum up Adpeta Sororitas that way.
Not entirely no. But it is an important part of who they are. The very first image is of them in thick powered armor with a wimple and gas mask, killing an Astartes with a boltgun. That's how Sisters of Battle started off. The first actual models thankfully took their armor in a better direction than the nipplespikes and shoulder-ovaries of Sister Sin, but even in their first physical incarnation, they were holy knights of the Imperial Creed, defending the faithful and sacrificing themselves for the Imperium.
Manchu wrote: When a system is threatened, it is the Sisters who as often as not are already there -- not the IG and certainly not some aloof SM chapter.
... thus why I said, paladins, defenders of the faith, protectors of the people-- sacrificing themselves to protect the lives and purity of the Imperium's populace.
Manchu wrote: Additionally -- sex/gender is NOT irrelevant when we talk about SoB.
I never said it wasn't. I said the historical aspect was irrelevant. I would point out, however, that "feminine" as a word has a great deal of baggage. For example, a study was done asking for terms that one associated with a leader or manager, and with male, and with female. Of those, 75% of the terms associated with leader are associated with masculinity, while only 10% are associated with femininity. Because of the cultural baggage we carry around those terms, attempting to define Sisters of Battle based on their femininity and focusing overmuch on that is a bit of a trap. Women who are leaders, warriors, soldiers, combatants, aggressive, supremely confident, etc, are viewed as inherently unfeminine by many, and Sisters are all of these things.
I would like to see them get a physical codex, at the very least a 10 woman plastic battle sister box and some kind of flyer in their codex. Maybe make the Avenger plastic and throw it in the Codex?
I would also like to see a "Forces of Ecclesiarchy" supplement that includes Frateris Militia and some big cheese priests.
It shouldn't be that hard for them to get the GK-treatment. An infantry box to cover all existing power-armoured units (To deal with Seraphim, they could either make it 5 models per box or release a separate jumppack sprue.), a big walker thing which can make a penitent engine and a similar but new kind of walker, probably something shooty and a clampacked Character. Hopefully that one has at least one additional arm but I doubt that but you would still be able to mix that with the troop box. That would still leave the Terminator-sized box the GKs got, which could go into a tank box out of which you could build into an Exorcist, an Immolator and probably a Repressor or a completly new tank.
The Scitarii got an almost identical release so it seems totally possible to hope for and imho that would give an awesome starting point for further improvements on the line. The only models not updated this way would be Repentias and some Characters and especially Celestine doesn't need a transition to plastic and while the Repentias DO need new models, they would need a seperate box which would not offer much to the other models except Eviscerators for your Characters.
It has been a long while since I have spoken out in favor of the sisters, but I suppose I can come up with a few ideas.
Plastic 10 woman Sisters of Battle box. 10 helmets, 10 to 13 unhelmeted heads, full weapons list. This is your troop choice, so it best have everything.
Plastic clampack 5 woman set. 2 heavy flamers, 2 meltas, etc. 5 helmets, 5 to 8 unhelmeted heads, extra gubbins. This covers celestians and the rest of the various groups except the next batch.
5 pack of seraphim. Full range as above.
Adjust Penitent Engine to a MC. Give it a poor armor save but a good fnp roll for balance.
Sprinkle in a build a bear cannoness and call it done.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The whole "Sisters are Knights / SMs are Knights" confusion and overlap is a lot of the reason why Sisters don't sell. They're geared like SMs, but they're not as good because they don't have the statline, nor any of the high tech stuff, nor any of the long range gear. And the models cost a lot more. Sisters lack the notion of being walking heraldry, along with the conversion bitz to tailor the army to a personal vision.
But they have ridiculous "boob plate" armor which flies in face of the tech as described in 40k. They are fundamentally flawed in concept and execution, the Dan to Ultramarines Ryu and Black Legion Ken, rather than Sakura (much less Akuma).
Worse, they attract some of the most difficult adherents on the board who simply can't see that the army as-is is precisely why it cannot succeed.
See, the lack of a marine statline and lack of access to, for instance, thunderfires or grav weapons isn't an issue for me. I like that they aren't marines. I just also like that their faith powers are their own unique edge that makes them interesting and effective on the tabletop. Normally, a sister shouldn't have great odds against, say, a chaos marine. Throw some faith on her in the form of a few minor buffs though, and suddenly she's got a fighting chance. That's why I'd like to see a customizable "living saint" unit. Flashy miracles shouldn't be happening left and right with sisters, but having legends spring up around a sister whose weapon burns with holy fire near daemons or who survives mortal wounds is potentially cool. The chances of meeting said sister are up there with the chances of meeting a chapter master, so the "faith" angle wouldn't turn into a "look! See! Flaming sword!" angle. It would just be cool and different from other armies out there.
I feel that Sisters' niche could be better defined/explored, but the potential is there. Especially if you add in this whole, "Inspire the peasants" angle.
Boob plate isn't especially realistic, but it isn't a power armor bikini either. I'm willing to overlook the physics of armor plates considering it's A.) not as silly as many suits of female armor you see in media and B.) from a universe where fungus orks fight psychic ninja space elves. Plus there's the whole "no men at arms" thing, so you can sort of write it off as an aesthetic choice rooted in the culture of the ecclesiarchy. I wouldn't object to boobless plate armor either though. And honestly, I think the sisters' power armor armor is pretty darn cool looking. I actually like it quite a bit more than most images of marine power armor I see.
Melissia wrote: Assuming we get a Sisters of Battle, Adepta Sororitas, or Adeptus Ministorum codex (IE, not deleted or merged), in what direction would you prefer to see Sisters taken?
I think I would prefer them to AVOID piling on SMlite as much as possible, while attempting to fix those units in the codex that just aren't worth taking. Witch Hunters, Storm Troopers and what not can easily be allied in, no reason to add them into the SoB codex. Most of the codex is solid, here are my problem children.
Canoness- she shouldn't be prancing around like Shrike, give us a reason to take her. Army wide buffs or something from her oratory or presence, perhaps all SoB units use her leadership if she's alive or what not. Leader, yes. Super gene enhanced killing machine, no. Or a list of divine acts the Canoness can call down, army wide shrouded, boosts to faith save or some such. Perhaps even something that resets the count on units Acts of Faith.
Repentia- give them fleet and a 5+ faith save with feel no pain standard. Make their act of faith remove unwieldy. I do really like the idea of including a small number as an upgrade to an existing squad of non repentia sisters. Allow them to take challenges, Would get them out of the elite slot as well. OR, turn them into much cheaper militia with an eviscerator, no save, barely a faith save, and an unwieldy death machine for standard issue, in the TROOPS section.
Celestians- give them upgrades akin to vanguard veterans, keep them sisterly weapon types of course, but give the entire squad the option to kit out for chopping stuff up. OR, give them a rosaries (4++ invuln) and a power sword in addition to current build with little to no point increase. In other words make them worth the points they are now, rather than just boosting the cost for any upgrade.
Penitent Engines- fleet and 5+ faith save with feel no pain and it will not die standard. Make their act of faith allow additional close combat attacks for each successful hit. OR just make them a lot cheaper, they are a fluffy throw away unit that is designed to cause havoc and then die terribly (hopefully in that order anyways) we shouldn't have to pay so much for them.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The whole "Sisters are Knights / SMs are Knights" confusion and overlap is a lot of the reason why Sisters don't sell. They're geared like SMs, but they're not as good because they don't have the statline, nor any of the high tech stuff, nor any of the long range gear. And the models cost a lot more. Sisters lack the notion of being walking heraldry, along with the conversion bitz to tailor the army to a personal vision.
But they have ridiculous "boob plate" armor which flies in face of the tech as described in 40k.
See, the lack of a marine statline and lack of access to, for instance, thunderfires or grav weapons isn't an issue for me. I like that they aren't marines. I just also like that their faith powers are their own unique edge that makes them interesting and effective on the tabletop.
Boob plate isn't especially realistic, but it isn't a power armor bikini either.
And honestly, I think the sisters' power armor armor is pretty darn cool looking. I actually like it quite a bit more than most images of marine power armor I see.
The problem is that that Faith angle isn't carried over with the rest of the Ecclesiarchy / WH units. Where is the mass of Frateris Militia?
The Sisters look great. The problem is that their armor looks like it should confer 5+ at most, not a 3+ Save.
@JohnHwang: How so regarding the armor? Those are some pretty three plus-looking pauldrons, and all the (presumably) leather bits look like they're either decorative or for additional protection. The layers may not be as thick as astartes armor, that doesn't mean the materials don't put them in the same ballpark of protection. The difference between a vest and helmet and carapace armor is only a side on a d6. The difference between astartes armor and terminator armor is only one side of a d6. Could be that marine armor simply isn't thick enough to be 2+ armor. Sister armor looks more protective than carapace.
I'd be all for frateris millitia.
@dracpanzer: Cool ideas all around! I especially like the Canones as a source of army-wide acts idea. Not sure what you mean by the Shrike thing thought. An "angel" on wings of flame with a jump pack would be awesome! Also, FNP wouldn't technically work on a penitent engine would it? Since it's a vehicle?
The stats in 40k are not really granular enough to be the basis for an argument about how 40k tech works. Sisters wear power armour so they have a power armour save; it's as simple as that, so far as 40k rules are concerned.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The whole "Sisters are Knights / SMs are Knights" confusion and overlap is a lot of the reason why Sisters don't sell. They're geared like SMs, but they're not as good because they don't have the statline, nor any of the high tech stuff, nor any of the long range gear. And the models cost a lot more. Sisters lack the notion of being walking heraldry, along with the conversion bitz to tailor the army to a personal vision.
But they have ridiculous "boob plate" armor which flies in face of the tech as described in 40k.
See, the lack of a marine statline and lack of access to, for instance, thunderfires or grav weapons isn't an issue for me. I like that they aren't marines. I just also like that their faith powers are their own unique edge that makes them interesting and effective on the tabletop.
Boob plate isn't especially realistic, but it isn't a power armor bikini either.
And honestly, I think the sisters' power armor armor is pretty darn cool looking. I actually like it quite a bit more than most images of marine power armor I see.
The problem is that that Faith angle isn't carried over with the rest of the Ecclesiarchy / WH units. Where is the mass of Frateris Militia?
The Sisters look great. The problem is that their armor looks like it should confer 5+ at most, not a 3+ Save.
I thnk the armour looks fine in a universe where materials can be so advanced that they cna be cosnidered magical - but then most figures should get a -1 to armour saves without helmits
Plastic and more options is all they really need...............
Agreed. I think the Fratris Militia are basically normal people caught up in religious hysteria. SoB should have AoF effects that make Fratris Militia more dangerous.
I have been thinking about some ideas for new units lately as well.
One of sisters main defining characteristic for me is that they are a short range firefight army that does poorly in hth. I would like to see more rules and mechanics for getting us up the board faster to engage the enemy such as scout, infiltrate, deep strike, fast vehicles , drop pods etc. We should also be supported by glass cannon melee units that hit hard but can’t take return fire.
One big thing is that we need proper anti pysker defence. AW does not cut it. I am tired of just sitting around getting ripped apart in the psychic phase. Some ideas might be to give us a 4+ AW roll. Ways to generate more dispel dice. Maybe even make it harder for pyskers to cast powers such as a -1 to all harness the warp rolls.
As for new units I’ve got a few kicking around.
Guardians of the Sanctuary
They carry praesidium protectiva and are armed with power axes/mauls that ae also one shot flamers. They gain bonus for being near objectives such as fearless, counter attack and furious charge. Allow them to infiltrate onto objectives at the start of the game.
Artillery weapons of some kind. Sisters are often tasked with defending positions such as churches, relics and planets etc that it makes sense for them to defensive emplacements to help protect the good stuff. I like the idea of a giant melta cannon with decent range 36” that has a blast and can be switched to a torrent flamer weapon when the enemies get close (think 2ed multi-melta BUT ON CRACK..erm FAITH!!!!)
Angel tears AA gun.
A aa gun that uses explosive incendiary air-bursts to knock out enemy flyers. Besides doing and normal damage all flyers take a crash and burn test (flying MC’s take a grounding test instead) Str 8 ap 4 twin linked ignores cover (you’re flying throw a giant fire ball accuracy is not an issue and good luck jinking your way out of that you godless heretics!)
A reversion for repentia I’ve had was to make them troops and give them a heavy chainsword (+1 str.) Make them fearless and drop their cost down a ton (6-7pts). If they are killed your opponent scores no VPs for them but if they live to the end of the game your opponent gets a VP.
Penitent engines are fine as is if they are dropped to 45pts and moved to the elite section. Otherwise they need survivability and speed upgrades to do their job.
Finally for a low there can be only one choice: CHURCH TANK!!!!!
Wyldhunt wrote: @JohnHwang: How so regarding the armor? Those are some pretty three plus-looking pauldrons, and all the (presumably) leather bits look like they're either decorative or for additional protection. The layers may not be as thick as astartes armor, that doesn't mean the materials don't put them in the same ballpark of protection. The difference between a vest and helmet and carapace armor is only a side on a d6. The difference between astartes armor and terminator armor is only one side of a d6. Could be that marine armor simply isn't thick enough to be 2+ armor. Sister armor looks more protective than carapace.
Sisters are ordinary women, not superhuman males. They are wearing the equivalent of full plate, which is probably a 60+ lb harness plus their backpack.
A Guardsman is exactly like a modern soldier, and they typically run not much less weight with their body armor and field packs.
And then you have Space Marines who are the pinnacle of human genetics, futher augmented by hypertech science. They wear massive armor, produced in very small volumes, and they only get a 3+
Sisters armor is more decorative and stylish, less protective or functional, still worn by an ordinary woman. Sisters cannot have higher-tech armor than Space Marines (better protection per pound), and it's clearly significantly less total armor. But it still has a 3+ Save as armor 3x as thick and x as good? Nope. While GW likes to say "3+" it should be 5+ or 4+.
Being generous, I put Sisters at a 4+ Save and make up the diffrence with a big 5++ Faith save.
You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or perhaps it's the smaller footprint creating a smaller target, or the curvature of the plating to deflect more shots which keeps the save low.
Turning Sisters in to glorified guardsmen because you don't like their aesthetics is very petty.
Sisters have power armor. Therefor, they have a 3+ save. Nerfing Sisters and turning htem in to a horde army is lame. If I want an army of 4+ save T3 soldiers, I'll play something else. Them being humans in power armor is kind of the entire point.
Wyldhunt wrote: @JohnHwang: How so regarding the armor? Those are some pretty three plus-looking pauldrons, and all the (presumably) leather bits look like they're either decorative or for additional protection. The layers may not be as thick as astartes armor, that doesn't mean the materials don't put them in the same ballpark of protection. The difference between a vest and helmet and carapace armor is only a side on a d6. The difference between astartes armor and terminator armor is only one side of a d6. Could be that marine armor simply isn't thick enough to be 2+ armor. Sister armor looks more protective than carapace.
Sisters are ordinary women, not superhuman males. They are wearing the equivalent of full plate, which is probably a 60+ lb harness plus their backpack.
A Guardsman is exactly like a modern soldier, and they typically run not much less weight with their body armor and field packs.
And then you have Space Marines who are the pinnacle of human genetics, futher augmented by hypertech science. They wear massive armor, produced in very small volumes, and they only get a 3+
Sisters armor is more decorative and stylish, less protective or functional, still worn by an ordinary woman. Sisters cannot have higher-tech armor than Space Marines (better protection per pound), and it's clearly significantly less total armor. But it still has a 3+ Save as armor 3x as thick and x as good? Nope. While GW likes to say "3+" it should be 5+ or 4+.
Being generous, I put Sisters at a 4+ Save and make up the diffrence with a big 5++ Faith save.
Thickness is not the only measurement of protection. Sisters Power Armor is made out of the same material as Marine armor is and nothing suggests that it is poor in make. The principle difference between Sisters PA and Marine PA is that Sisters can't get as much mileage out of their PA due to their lack of the black carapace. A Marine is faster, stronger and tougher than a Sister but his PA isn't considerably superior to a sisters to warrant reducing her save. 40k doesn't have the granularity to represent more subtle differences like that so giving a Sister a 4+ would be doing her armor an injustice. It would be suggesting that she is wearing a gussied up suit of carapace armor.
deviantduck wrote: You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.
I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females. ____
TheCustomLime wrote: Thickness is not the only measurement of protection. Sisters Power Armor is made out of the same material as Marine armor is and nothing suggests that it is poor in make.
The principle difference between Sisters PA and Marine PA is that Sisters can't get as much mileage out of their PA due to their lack of the black carapace. A Marine is faster, stronger and tougher than a Sister but his PA isn't considerably superior to a sisters to warrant reducing her save.
40k doesn't have the granularity to represent more subtle differences like that so giving a Sister a 4+ would be doing her armor an injustice. It would be suggesting that she is wearing a gussied up suit of carapace armor.
Even assuming that Sisters armor is of the exact same quality of it, you are not convincing me that less of it, in thinner layers provides equal protection. That's just not how armor works.
The SM wears more, thicker armor than the Sister. If more, thicker armor gives a Terminator a better armor save than a PASM, then the PASM should have a better save than a Sister.
Why would it be doing her armor an injustice? She *is* wearing nothing more than fancier carapace.
Now, if you want to say that Sisters are Orks, and they have a 3+ because they believe it to be so, then that is an entirely different line of discussion. But even then, under what intrinsic basis do they believe it to be worth the same 3+ as the much larger SMs that they encounter? Ork Meks at least add enough wires, gubbins, blinkers and coils that the combination of all that stuff creates a result. Or have convincingly observed across several generations that Red paint really does make something go fasta.
Sororitas power armor is power armor that, by GW canon, provides the same level of protection as Astartes armor, but with less strength-enhancing servos and other such advanced features. That latter part is why it's not as cartoonishly thick as astartes power armor is.
It is times like this that I wish that the Standard Marine Statline get upgraded from 4s to 5s (with the appropriate rebalance and/or rules rewrite, of course), so that the non-marine human represention will not be limited to just 3s, which at the moment covers a way-too broad group.
Anyway, my ideas Fluff-wise:
Relations with the Ecclesiarchy: While they were reformed as the servants of the post-Vandire Ecclesiarchy, by the time 40k rolls in the Adepta Sororitas grew so much as an organization that they are almost a separate entity that are more of an "allies" to the Ecclesiarchy than servants.
Relations with the Admech: There is canonically a very sizable Admech faction that preaches the "The Omnissiah is the part of the Emperor" or even the "There is no Omnissiah, just the Emperor". The Sisters can hang out with those, become Sororitas Tech-priestesses and get access to some nifty gear.
Numbers: Get rid of the old "less numerous than the space marine" BS. The Sisters easily outnumber the Marines, while the Guard easily outnumbers them both.
Decree Passive: By the time 40k comes, the only relevant part of this document is the "Girls only", so the Sisters can field whatever they want. The Ecclesiarchy wanted to get rid of it altogether and get direct control of IG, but the Sisters "gently" reminded them what happened to Vandire.
Weapons: My own headcanon is that unlike the specially designed 30k versions, the modern 40k Marine handheld weapons are normal human weapons crudely scaled up for Marine standards with the expectations that the Marine physique will bruteforce away the drawbacks, which they do, but not completely, and thus they are a LOT less effective than their 30k counterparts. In comparison, the Sororitas handheld weapons are specifically designed for heavily trained power armor wearing humans, and thus the Sisters fight the enemy instead of their own weapons.
Vehicles: With both theirs and the Ecclesiarchy's influence and wealth, they have better toys than most IG regiments. In particular, they inherited the most of Solar Auxilia stuff and even some odd Crusade-era Marine gear here and there.
Scouts/Recon/Snipers/Assassins: The Sisters are partially based on the Dune's clandestine Bene Geserit, so them having some sneaky units is not that far-fetched. Besides, zealotry is an another form of obsession, and I definitely can see Sisters obsessed enough to wait still for Emperor knows how long for that perfect chance to decapitate the enemy in one strike.
EDIT: And I definitely want an all-female Codex: Adepta Sororitas and NOT Codex: Ecclesiarchy.
deviantduck wrote: You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.
I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.
But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference. Compare a Sister of Battle (3+) model to a Scout Marine (4+) or a Stormtrooper (4+). You could even use the metal Scouts and Stormies so the comparison is like to like in terms of the type/age of model. The Sister is clearly, without question, wearing a better form of protection. The Scouts and Stormtroopers have large areas only protected by cloth (legs, arms and gaps in the carapace), whereas the Sister is totally protected by an enclosed armour of a powered type (ie that's what the backpack is for).
To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.
Even if SoB armour offers less protection than SM armour, the difference may not be great enough to merit simulation in the rules of 40k.
I don't get the point of this line of argument anyhow. One of the core concepts of SoB is "normal humans wearing power armour." There is no reason to redesign SoB backwards (from existing models to a new concept) in a way that invalidates a big part of their brand identity.
deviantduck wrote: You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.
I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.
____
TheCustomLime wrote: Thickness is not the only measurement of protection. Sisters Power Armor is made out of the same material as Marine armor is and nothing suggests that it is poor in make.
The principle difference between Sisters PA and Marine PA is that Sisters can't get as much mileage out of their PA due to their lack of the black carapace. A Marine is faster, stronger and tougher than a Sister but his PA isn't considerably superior to a sisters to warrant reducing her save.
40k doesn't have the granularity to represent more subtle differences like that so giving a Sister a 4+ would be doing her armor an injustice. It would be suggesting that she is wearing a gussied up suit of carapace armor.
Even assuming that Sisters armor is of the exact same quality of it, you are not convincing me that less of it, in thinner layers provides equal protection. That's just not how armor works.
The SM wears more, thicker armor than the Sister. If more, thicker armor gives a Terminator a better armor save than a PASM, then the PASM should have a better save than a Sister.
Why would it be doing her armor an injustice? She *is* wearing nothing more than fancier carapace.
Now, if you want to say that Sisters are Orks, and they have a 3+ because they believe it to be so, then that is an entirely different line of discussion. But even then, under what intrinsic basis do they believe it to be worth the same 3+ as the much larger SMs that they encounter? Ork Meks at least add enough wires, gubbins, blinkers and coils that the combination of all that stuff creates a result. Or have convincingly observed across several generations that Red paint really does make something go fasta.
It could be that Space Marine power armor is bulkier, as Melissia said, because it includes many ancillary features like strength enhancers, waste recyclers etc. There is nowhere in the fluff that suggests that Sororitas PA isn't much better than Carapace armor. Further, while there may be a difference (I believe so) it is not large enough to justify a reduced save within the current 40k system. It doesn't have enough space to represent the small disparity.
If you believe that human Power Armor isn't significantly more protective than human carapace armor then I don't know what to say to you. Read up on the fluff?
Also, the thickness of armor doesn't mean it is any more or less protective. After all, a pillow is thicker than an inch of steel, but I know which one I would rather hide behind.
Perhaps whatever Archaeotech pattern of armor the Sororitas is fortunate to use is made of better materials than Ceramite (adamantium?) and therefore need not be as thick.
deviantduck wrote: You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.
I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.
But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference.
To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.
I look at the models, and see the Sisters wearing fancier armor, not better armor.
However, if you're going by that, then SMs should be 2+ and Terminators 1+ (2+ re-rolling failed saves).
If you want to argue that Guardsmen should be 6+, I'd be OK with that. ____
Unit1126PLL wrote: Also, the thickness of armor doesn't mean it is any more or less protective. After all, a pillow is thicker than an inch of steel, but I know which one I would rather hide behind.
Perhaps whatever Archaeotech pattern of armor the Sororitas is fortunate to use is made of better materials than Ceramite (adamantium?) and therefore need not be as thick.
Sisters and SMs both wear armor of the same material, per the fluff. SMs just wear more of it. An inch of steel is better than steel foil.
No, Sisters don't have better "pattern" or better materials. That makes no sense when SMs would have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.
The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal. The Ad Mech does.
Again, thickness isn't everything when it comes to armor otherwise Bullgryns would have 3+ armor saves as their Carapace is a lot thicker than regular human carapace.
Also, how do you know the Marines have better tech than the sisters?
In a hidebound empire suspicious of high technology and unrelentingly dedicated to immensely stupid traditions, why would the Marines have better tech in their "traditional garb" than any other organization's "traditional garb?"
The Imperium has its head so far up its own ass technologically that they don't even know what the best tech that they possess in a given field IS, not to mention who to give it to.
TheCustomLime wrote: The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.
I would like to see the source for this BS.
Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.
Keep that in context -- Custom Lime was making the point that the SM get their stuff from the AdMech and the AdMech therefore have at least as effective armour if not also better.
TheCustomLime wrote: The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.
I would like to see the source for this BS.
Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.
Wait you really want a source for the Adeptus Mechanicus having better technology than the Space Marines?
They literally teach the Marines how to build the gak they use...
TheCustomLime wrote: The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.
I would like to see the source for this BS.
Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.
The Adeptus Mechanicus has better pieces of technology held for themselves. Go through the Skitarii codex for examples.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Sisters and SMs both wear armor of the same material, per the fluff.
Both types of armour offer the same protection, also per the fluff. So do you want to argue from fluff or not?
Well I always thought this was weird.
Space Marines can float in space right? Thats something SM are protected against that BS are not. Can battle Sisters breath under water? I don't remember their armour protecting them from any water danger like the Space Marines. There are probably a lot of stupid gadgets Marines have that offer heaps of extra protection that I am unaware about. But the Sisters merely have armour.
SM are protected by more than their armour. SM have physiological enhancements as well, which SoB don't. I don't know whether SoB armour confers a self-contained environment but neither do I think that was necessarily the point of the fluff in question; more like they offer the same protection as far as combat goes.
The space marines can float in space because the suits are airtight and they put their bodies in stasis. The sisters armor would also let them float in space... until they ran out of oxygen.
It's hardly relevant. IRL, astronauts have been able to float around in space for decades. It has nothing to do with how effective their suits are in terms of armour.
deviantduck wrote: The space marines can float in space because the suits are airtight and they put their bodies in stasis. The sisters armor would also let them float in space... until they ran out of oxygen.
Well duh... Thats what my point was, Space marines in space ships and so on have extra protection than Sisters of Battle because of their armour... which then makes the blurb about Sisters armour being equal in protection a really badly thought out piece of fluff.
TheCustomLime wrote: The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.
I would like to see the source for this BS.
Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.
The Adeptus Mechanicus has better pieces of technology held for themselves. Go through the Skitarii codex for examples.
This is conjecture based on game stats (Skitarii weapons and gear supposedly being better in lore due to their game performance) with no basis in the game's lore. The Grey Knights is an excellent example of a non-Admech organisation having technology that by far outstrips that of the Mechanicus.
TheCustomLime wrote: The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.
I would like to see the source for this BS.
Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.
The Adeptus Mechanicus has better pieces of technology held for themselves. Go through the Skitarii codex for examples.
This is conjecture based on game stats (Skitarii weapons and gear supposedly being better in lore due to their game performance) with no basis in the game's lore. The Grey Knights is an excellent example of a non-Admech organisation having technology that by far outstrips that of the Mechanicus.
Except the Mechanicus literally teaches the Grey Knights how to maintain their gak, because the Grey Knights don't have unrestricted access to the tech.
So literally by definition they have the -same- tech, and it is likely that the Mechanicus has far better.
Plus the Grey Knights (and the Deathwatch) are hardly typical of a normal Space Marine Chapter, since they heavily and directly supported by the Inquisition.
TheCustomLime wrote: The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.
I would like to see the source for this BS.
Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.
The Adeptus Mechanicus has better pieces of technology held for themselves. Go through the Skitarii codex for examples.
This is conjecture based on game stats (Skitarii weapons and gear supposedly being better in lore due to their game performance) with no basis in the game's lore. The Grey Knights is an excellent example of a non-Admech organisation having technology that by far outstrips that of the Mechanicus.
What is your source for the Grey Knights having technology that "far outstrips" the Ad Mech?
deviantduck wrote: You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.
I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.
But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference.
To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.
I look at the models, and see the Sisters wearing fancier armor, not better armor.
However, if you're going by that, then SMs should be 2+ and Terminators 1+ (2+ re-rolling failed saves).
If you want to argue that Guardsmen should be 6+, I'd be OK with that.
____
I actually would like to see marines be redone with a higher points cost but better defense.
The real reason Sisters have a 3+ save is because it's better than the 4+ save regular Joes can get, and because it's cool. If you need an in-universe explanation, it's that the protection sororitas armor provides is less than that of astartes armor, but astartes armor is not good enough to warrant a 2+.
As an aside, doesn't the black carapace only deal with the snazzy bonus features on power armor? Air conditioning, toxin filters, auspex, etc. I'm pretty sure the armor itself is just as good at stopping bullets regardless of whether or not you have the carapace, but that the carapace lets you move in it, feel through it, turn on the cd player, etc. more easily.
deviantduck wrote: You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.
I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.
But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference.
To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.
I look at the models, and see the Sisters wearing fancier armor, not better armor.
However, if you're going by that, then SMs should be 2+ and Terminators 1+ (2+ re-rolling failed saves).
If you want to argue that Guardsmen should be 6+, I'd be OK with that.
____
I actually would like to see marines be redone with a higher points cost but better defense.
The real reason Sisters have a 3+ save is because it's better than the 4+ save regular Joes can get, and because it's cool. If you need an in-universe explanation, it's that the protection sororitas armor provides is less than that of astartes armor, but astartes armor is not good enough to warrant a 2+.
As an aside, doesn't the black carapace only deal with the snazzy bonus features on power armor? Air conditioning, toxin filters, auspex, etc. I'm pretty sure the armor itself is just as good at stopping bullets regardless of whether or not you have the carapace, but that the carapace lets you move in it, feel through it, turn on the cd player, etc. more easily.
It also lets them move easier and all that jazz, but ya it doesn't make the armor anymore bullet proof.
What is your source for the Grey Knights having technology that "far outstrips" the Ad Mech?
Codex Grey Knights, page 6.
Of all the armies of the Imperium, the Grey Knights can boast to have the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command.
The AdMech is the faction that deals with most technology in the Imperium. However, this is -not- the same thing as having the best. I often see people confuse the two, but as you see, that is an error - kind of like the idea that IG and SoB bolters are on par with Astartes weapons.
What is your source for the Grey Knights having technology that "far outstrips" the Ad Mech?
Codex Grey Knights, page 6.
Of all the armies of the Imperium, the Grey Knights can boast to have the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command.
The AdMech is the faction that deals with most technology in the Imperium. However, this is -not- the same thing as having the best. I often see people confuse the two, but as you see, that is an error - kind of like the idea that IG and SoB bolters are on par with Astartes weapons.
If the Grey Knights have "the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command" then the Mechanicus does, too, because those weapons were manufactured by the Mechanicum.
Source:
Every weapon used in the armies of Mankind can trace its origin to a forge world of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The Adeptus Mechanicus supplies the Grey Knight's technology and has the blue prints to make them. They have the technology as much as the Grey Knights do. In addition. the Ad Mech makes stuff like Imperator Titans, Emperor-class battleships, warp drives and stuff not even the Space Marines have access to. I would hardly think that a Psy-cannon is a better piece of tech than a Hellstorm cannon.
TheCustomLime wrote: The Adeptus Mechanicus supplies the Grey Knight's technology and has the blue prints to make them. They have the technology as much as the Grey Knights do. In addition. the Ad Mech makes stuff like Imperator Titans, Emperor-class battleships, warp drives and stuff not even the Space Marines have access to. I would hardly think that a Psy-cannon is a better piece of tech than a Hellstorm cannon.
Lets size this down, does anyone besides the Ad Mech have access to Plasma Calivers, Heavy Grav Cannons, Torsions Cannons, Volkite Blasters, Radium Carbines, Arc Rifles (heavy and normal) Phosphor Blasters, Neutron Lasers, Eradication Beamers, or Transuronic Arqubeus? No? Well they have the highest tech in the Imperium, because they're a bunch of hoarders
Power armour: Constructed from thick ceramite plates, the power armour worn by the Adepta Sororitas is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced support systems and strength enhancing abilities, for the Sisters of Battle do not possess a Space Marine’s ability to interface directly with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few forces outside of the Adeptus Astartes to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to use its abilities to deadly effect
Power armour confers a 3+ Armour Save
Pg 58 of the epub version of the codex.
P.g 19 Witch Hunter codex
Guys what are we arguing about? GW themselves say that sister power armour protects the same as Space Marine. While lacking a bunch of extra functions and abilities that the marines have access to, it's protective capabilities are the same. We are free to disagree with GW on this fact but that does not change the reality of the situation. There is no need to argue as GW already thinks that power armour protects the same as Space Marine power armours so when I go to the LGS tomorrow I will be rolling 3+ armour saves (the Emperor protects!).
As has been said by several posters already, it may be true that SM power armour offers more protection than the SOB variant. It may be true the SM lean more to the 2+/3+ end of the 3+ save scale, while SoB lean closer to the 3+/4+ side. But there is no way the difference is so extensive as to simulate it in game.
Personally I'd put your average marine on Termie stats/points and have Termie armour merely be reduced by AP1-2 weapons, not ignored. But we'd probably be playing a whole different game by that point.
As for a new SoB codex, or Ecclessiarchy codex as it were, I would suggest three points.
Acts of Faith It's worked well as something truly unique to the sisters, but not always something that's been as effective as it could be. Regardless of what form it takes (and several dakkaknights have already made good suggestions) it -needs- to be in any new codex. Given that miracles rarely occur when there's no dire need for them, it makes sense that Acts of Faith should grow more powerful (or more powerful ones should be unlocked) the more mauled an SoB force gets.
And given that sisters are supposed to be inspirational as all hell, I'd suggest a particular Act of Faith that applies to certain allies. Something that represents even the most cynical guardsman being brought to tears of joy by the religious fervour. This would have the added effect of sisters being taken as allies as a tactically smart choice, not just a fluffy one.
Air Support It's not really fluffy to have Adepta Sorirtas pilots, unless a whole new sub-order is created. Here is where the wealth of the Ecclessiarchy should come into play, using their influence to acquire Imperial Navy assets as support. It would take a brave naval officer to refuse assistance (even at the expense of other objectives) when the mere suspicion of heresy can spell death.
I think that an 'Ecclessiarchy' codex should be able to select a unit from the Imperial Guard, for much the same reasons. Similar to how Eldar Corsairs can choose a single troop/elite/fast attack from the Eldar codex.
Martyr Manifestation I cannot understand how we have the Legion of the Damned while we don't have anything similar for the Sisters. There are accounts knights in the Crusades, as in the real life ones. would claim to have seen hosts of angels descend and butcher their Saracen enemies.
It makes sense that there would be some similar phenomenon for the SoB. Not just the angelic visage of Celestine (who is so far the closet thing) and a host of Seraphim, but a real -literal- manifestation of raw faith and the Emperor's Will given form.
I'd say it should work something similar to a daemon summoning, just from the other end of the spectrum. Perhaps it sounds unoriginal but I reckon that could be captured fairly well by something similar to the Age of Sigmar models.
Manchu wrote: I don't get the point of this line of argument anyhow. One of the core concepts of SoB is "normal humans wearing power armour." There is no reason to redesign SoB backwards (from existing models to a new concept) in a way that invalidates a big part of their brand identity.
My opinions are probably heretical, but I'm going to post them anyways.
Firstly, as for the Space Marines power armor vs Sisters power armor: IMO Power Armor should give 3+ save and +1 Str, regardless of who uses it. The black carapace makes you faster and have a better reaction time, this translates to a bonus to initiative, and maybe an extra melee attack. Relative to Sisters, Space Marines should have +1 I, +1 A and +1 T. The whole Minus Four Strength this is moronic. The difference between an unarmored unaugmented human, and and unarmored unaugmented Space Marine should be less than the difference between a normal unaugmented human with armor vs without. So that's obviously the first thing I'd update.
As for the actual fluff, I look at miracles from the perspective that ALL SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES COME FROM THE WARP. Which means that faith powers are weird psudo psyker powers. Sisters seem almost like nascent Daemons to the Emperor's Nascent Warp God, and should be stated as such. 6++ compared to daemon's 5++, and more subtle abilities compared to obvious psyker craziness of Chaos. But the Emperor opposes Chaos, and the Sisters Abhor the Witch. Which means that they should be among the best anti-psyker armies out there, but instead, have merely a +1 to deny the witch, assuming that said power is targeting them, and assuming that they've got any dice to spare.
The wargear for anti-psyker units already exists in the Inquisition Codex, the Psyocculum and the Null Rod both are things that should be either available to special characters, or rolled into a special character. The core battle sisters are they are now are fine. That is, the BSS, Dominions, Seraphim and Celestians (Though melee Celestians would be cool.) Giving the Celestians a drop pod so that they can get rending heavy flamers into relevant places quickly, is probably worth doing though.
Celestine should have Eternal Warrior, but since I'm the one in charge, I'm going to go one further, and have her upgraded to something like they did with the Ork that became a Lord of War, and make her a Flying Monstrous Creature. Or maybe have a non-named saint that can be customized like a mini-daemon prince, all angelic and sometimes with wings. This is our laser eyes miracle unit, which lets everything else be more subtle.
The Canoness should be able to take a jump pack, and the Command Squad needs someone better than me to make it worthwhile.
Repentia are cool in theory, but need something that lets them not melt when something looks at them, someone mentioned 5++, which I think works, and their act could give them a 3++ for a turn or something.
I'd stick the dedicated anti-psyker into Elites. Something Akin to the Sisters of Silence, and maybe an Independent HQ that doesn't use up a FOC, that can hop into other units similar to what a Hereticus Inquisitor with Null Rod and Psyocculum would be able to do.
Instead of creating a whole new unit for anti-air, an alternate miracle for the Seraphim could work instead (Sister Superior Upgrade/Sidegrade?), let them act like flyers for a turn, this gives them good reason to take the 2x double Melta again.
As for the Penitent Engines, I don't like them, so I haven't thought about how to make them worthwhile, nor will I.
deviantduck wrote: You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.
I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.
But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference.
To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.
I look at the models, and see the Sisters wearing fancier armor, not better armor.
However, if you're going by that, then SMs should be 2+ and Terminators 1+ (2+ re-rolling failed saves).
If you want to argue that Guardsmen should be 6+, I'd be OK with that.
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I actually would like to see marines be redone with a higher points cost but better defense.
The real reason Sisters have a 3+ save is because it's better than the 4+ save regular Joes can get, and because it's cool. If you need an in-universe explanation, it's that the protection sororitas armor provides is less than that of astartes armor, but astartes armor is not good enough to warrant a 2+.
As an aside, doesn't the black carapace only deal with the snazzy bonus features on power armor? Air conditioning, toxin filters, auspex, etc. I'm pretty sure the armor itself is just as good at stopping bullets regardless of whether or not you have the carapace, but that the carapace lets you move in it, feel through it, turn on the cd player, etc. more easily.
The Codices for the SoB, since the very first printing, have always stated that their Power Armor provides protection equal to that of the Astartes.
regarding the power armour used by the adepta sororitas the thing to remember is that there is an entirely diferent design principle at work compared to the space marine armour. while the space marine armour is designed for a wide variety of situations and has a large number of subsystems installed to aid the space marine in combat. the adepta sorotitas armour however is stripped down of pretty much all subsystems and has just enough strength enhancement not to break your arm when you fire a bolter. space marines are also much larger compared to regular human beings so their armour has to be much larger to fully incase them
regarding a potential update i like the idea of the cannoness providing 1d6 faith points with a potential saint upgrade that changes it to 2d6, as well as a martyrdom rule where the number of units that died in the previous turn add to the number of faith points and the ability to choose which faith power from a list to apply to any unit.
i do agree with giving the cannoness the abiltity to give her a jumpack which i believe would make her more versitile. regarding celestians however i have always seen them more like kabalite true born or dark angel vetrens then as an assualt unit, so i would actually advise giving them the ability to equip them with more speical/heavy weapons and maybe giving them a chainsword for the extra melee attack
I like the one vehicle upgrade in the FW tank battalion rules, that represent the faith and positive mojo imprinted on the vehicle by the heroic acts of previous crews that grant an extra deny the witch die. That seems an appropriate option for SoB.
Power armour: Constructed from thick ceramite plates, the power armour worn by the Adepta Sororitas is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced support systems and strength enhancing abilities, for the Sisters of Battle do not possess a Space Marine’s ability to interface directly with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few forces outside of the Adeptus Astartes to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to use its abilities to deadly effect
Power armour confers a 3+ Armour Save
Pg 58 of the epub version of the codex.
P.g 19 Witch Hunter codex
Guys what are we arguing about? GW themselves say that sister power armour protects the same as Space Marine. While lacking a bunch of extra functions and abilities that the marines have access to, it's protective capabilities are the same. We are free to disagree with GW on this fact but that does not change the reality of the situation. There is no need to argue as GW already thinks that power armour protects the same as Space Marine power armours so when I go to the LGS tomorrow I will be rolling 3+ armour saves (the Emperor protects!).
Vandire651 wrote: space marines are also much larger compared to regular human beings so their armour has to be much larger to fully incase them
The larger issue (no pun intended) is, why are SM themselves so big? I doubt it really makes them better warriors from a strictly mechanical point of view, just as body builders are not necessarily better warriors than more normally proportioned humans. But what being giant does achieve is a certain intimidation factor. SM were designed by the Emperor to re-conquer humanity among the stars: in other words, the target demographic was normal humans. SM physiological enhancement and armour combine to create truly impressive and scary giants; the kind of soldiers that would overawe normal humans. SoB by contrast have no need for this: they are guardians rather than conquerors. They don't need to intimidate humans, they need to inspire them.
Ashiraya wrote: Size is also useful in close combat. Keep in mind 40k is extremely CC-focused compared to our world.
This. An unaugmented human is slow, weak and incredibly fragile compared to... pretty much everything else. Space Marines need to be huge and strong just to be on the same level as a lot of galactic threats.
TheCustomLime wrote: Space Marines need to be huge and strong just to be on the same level as a lot of galactic threats.
Then why not make them much, much bigger like a lot of those threats are? The enhanced size of SM logically has more to do with the size of normal humans than xenos. A smaller SM could still kill a hundred orks. But he would not be as intimidating to a normal human. The goal was to bring humans into compliance, not just kill them. The leaders of once-lost human civilizations were supposed to stand in front of Horus and his legion and feel small.
By contrast, SoB arise from a different era: when the Imperium has been reassembled and most humans already worship the God Emperor. The faithful should look at the Sisters and feel righteous.
TheCustomLime wrote: Space Marines need to be huge and strong just to be on the same level as a lot of galactic threats.
Then why not make them much, much bigger like a lot of those threats are? The enhanced size of SM logically has more to do with the size of normal humans than xenos. A smaller SM could still kill a hundred orks. But he would not be as intimidating to a normal human. The goal was to bring humans into compliance, not just kill them. The leader of a once-lost human civilization was supposed to stand in front of Horus and his legion and feel small.
It is certainly true that intimidation was key, but 7-9.5 ft (depending on your source) is big enough to swat aside mortal men in melee while still fitting inside buildings and the like.
Ashiraya wrote: while still fitting inside buildings and the like.
I guess if whoever designed the buildings had giants in mind ...
According to FW, bionically enhanced Ogryns called Charonites are used for 'claustrophobic boarding actions' and similar tight-space fighting. I think even the 9' Marines will be just fine in 40k's oversized architecture.
I like your interpretations, Manchu, though I'd argue Marine size is also useful for keeping the Imperium's people in awe of the Emperor's Angels of Death, and by extension, the Emperor.
Ashiraya wrote: Size is also useful in close combat. Keep in mind 40k is extremely CC-focused compared to our world.
Of course having larger space marines means that you have to use more resources to equipt and maintain them, both in terms of having to build larger armour and guns for them to use to not being able to fit an extra marine or two in a rhino or dropped. Logisicly in makes sense to make smaller marines who also happen to make smaller targets, more stealthy and are able to fit in smaller places. Nothing is more embarasing then not being able to chase heretics cause the doorway is to small.
Just because spacefaring vessels are oversized doesn't mean every fortress and hideout is going to be, too. Indeed, just reading Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain gives plenty of examples of tunnel fighting that wouldn't allow for anything as big as an Astartes, never mind an Ogryn.
And yes, a mutant clad in several-ton armor prancing through walls is bound to do structural damage, and not every building in 40k is built to code.
Melissia wrote: Just because spacefaring vessels are oversized doesn't mean every fortress and hideout is going to be, too. Indeed, just reading Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain gives plenty of examples of tunnel fighting that wouldn't allow for anything as big as an Astartes, never mind an Ogryn.
And yes, a mutant clad in several-ton armor prancing through walls is bound to do structural damage, and not every building in 40k is built to code.
Fortunately, rooting out heretics in hives is Arbites jobs, not Astartes.
In addition, Astartes are not mutated (indeed, they are extremely resistant to mutation).
Melissia wrote: Just because spacefaring vessels are oversized doesn't mean every fortress and hideout is going to be, too. Indeed, just reading Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain gives plenty of examples of tunnel fighting that wouldn't allow for anything as big as an Astartes, never mind an Ogryn.
And yes, a mutant clad in several-ton armor prancing through walls is bound to do structural damage, and not every building in 40k is built to code.
Fortunately, rooting out heretics in hives is Arbites jobs, not Astartes.
In addition, Astartes are not mutated (indeed, they are extremely resistant to mutation).
Heresy and rebellion can often be found in Hives - if the rebellion is successful - the Astartes cna be called upon to clense them - Wrath of Iron depicts this in a realisticlaly brutal manner.... being trapped in a small space with a Space Marine trying to kill you would be horrifc - be like being trapped with an angry and armed Silverback Gorilla!
In close quarter fighting, good armour and sensors/senses is going to be very valuable so both Astartes and Sororitas would be highly effective - and both do have plenty fo very powerful close range weapons and flamers.
Humble Guardsman wrote: Acts of Faith It's worked well as something truly unique to the sisters, but not always something that's been as effective as it could be. Regardless of what form it takes (and several dakkaknights have already made good suggestions) it -needs- to be in any new codex. Given that miracles rarely occur when there's no dire need for them, it makes sense that Acts of Faith should grow more powerful (or more powerful ones should be unlocked) the more mauled an SoB force gets.
I like the idea of Sisters being a counter-punch / "it'll cost you" faction where tactically, you ideally want to be taking casualties at a steady rate, so you can apply the boosts of power that make your normally-weaker options hit above their weight bracket. The opponent, on the other hand, wants to try and control what they kill, making sure you can't use the casualties you took to let those surviving Repentia carve up your tank, or make that objective-sitting squad harder to kill.
Other stuff that could be added in giving the non-militant orders some presence. Perhaps attaching Hospitalier healers to squads, having Dialogus advisors giving bonuses to critical rolls, and that one mortician order appearing with a mobile reliquiary from which they can evoke miracles and inspire nearby allies.
Indeed, Acts of Faith could work like some kind of cross between blood tithe points, power from pain, and its current iteration.
Perhaps each squad gains +1 to its shield of faith save for each 25% of the unit destroyed, cumulating to a 3++ save for the last 25% or somesuch. Call the rule Spirit of the Martyr, or something.
Also, each unit could have a once-per-game faith power that gets refreshed when another unit of the same type is destroyed, or something.
Idk just brainstorming.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I say percent because that way units can still be huge blobs or MSU without the rule suddenly becoming useless or something.
Melissia wrote: Just because spacefaring vessels are oversized doesn't mean every fortress and hideout is going to be, too. Indeed, just reading Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain gives plenty of examples of tunnel fighting that wouldn't allow for anything as big as an Astartes, never mind an Ogryn.
And yes, a mutant clad in several-ton armor prancing through walls is bound to do structural damage, and not every building in 40k is built to code.
Fortunately, rooting out heretics in hives is Arbites jobs, not Astartes.
In addition, Astartes are not mutated (indeed, they are extremely resistant to mutation).
Which sisters have a ton of, along with the heavier, deadlier variant. Frankly, Sisters are better at cleaning out a heretical hive city than Astartes are
deviantduck wrote: Cleaning out a hive makes me think there would be a lot of punching at which sisters are not so great.
Sisters in power armor are certainly better at punching than the average hive worlder, both in terms of skill and power. Furthermore, outside of the Exorcist's long-ranged missiles or the medium-range heavy bolter (the latter of which is useful in long roads and corridors in creating a no-man's-land), all Sororitas weaponry is short ranged at best. Short-ranged engagements are sort of what Sisters do.
Ashiraya wrote: Size is also useful in close combat. Keep in mind 40k is extremely CC-focused compared to our world.
It has been demostrated historically that size is not any sort of advantage in close combat. That is why any girl would stand even odds against a heavyweight fighter in a MMA fight. Right?
Paimon wrote: Firstly, as for the Space Marines power armor vs Sisters power armor: IMO Power Armor should give 3+ save and +1 Str, regardless of who uses it.
I prefer Sisters having a human statline, myself. Maybe an elite unit would have S4 because of superior equipment, but them having the human T3/S3 baseline is a defining part of them.
Paimon wrote: Firstly, as for the Space Marines power armor vs Sisters power armor: IMO Power Armor should give 3+ save and +1 Str, regardless of who uses it.
I prefer Sisters having a human statline, myself. Maybe an elite unit would have S4 because of superior equipment, but them having the human T3/S3 baseline is a defining part of them.
I definitely agree. The S3/T3/I3 is very defining for humans, and exceptions are extremely rare even by the standards we're talking here (Assassins of all types for example, or Harker), and those people are pretty much superhuman.
Paimon wrote: Firstly, as for the Space Marines power armor vs Sisters power armor: IMO Power Armor should give 3+ save and +1 Str, regardless of who uses it.
I prefer Sisters having a human statline, myself. Maybe an elite unit would have S4 because of superior equipment, but them having the human T3/S3 baseline is a defining part of them.
Certainly. The fact that they are 'merely' human and still achieve such miracles is part of what makes them so intriguing.
Ashiraya wrote: The S3/T3/I3 is very defining for humans, and exceptions are extremely rare even by the standards we're talking here (Assassins of all types for example, or Harker), and those people are pretty much superhuman.
Nah, I4 I can see within the realm of elite troops like Celestians. But even Orks don't have S4 unless they're charging (though that rule has changed so many times I'm not even sure if it's true any more; I haven't played my Orks in an eternity).
We've had this dance before, but I continue to argue that I4 is superhuman speed. I acknowledge that your opinion differs though, so let's not have another 5 page war about it.
