Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Size is also useful in close combat. Keep in mind 40k is extremely CC-focused compared to our world.

Size is both useful and a hindrance. The more mass you have, the more exponentially larger amounts of energy you must use for movement.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Size is also useful in close combat. Keep in mind 40k is extremely CC-focused compared to our world.

This. An unaugmented human is slow, weak and incredibly fragile compared to... pretty much everything else. Space Marines need to be huge and strong just to be on the same level as a lot of galactic threats.

Yeah. It's easy to go 'humanity feth yeah' and forget how hilariously deadly the alien monsters of 40k are.

It's like a mini-Pacific Rim situation. 'In order to fight monsters, we created monsters.'

...Aaaanyway, you can go back to your topic now.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Space Marines need to be huge and strong just to be on the same level as a lot of galactic threats.

Then why not make them much, much bigger like a lot of those threats are? The enhanced size of SM logically has more to do with the size of normal humans than xenos. A smaller SM could still kill a hundred orks. But he would not be as intimidating to a normal human. The goal was to bring humans into compliance, not just kill them. The leaders of once-lost human civilizations were supposed to stand in front of Horus and his legion and feel small.

By contrast, SoB arise from a different era: when the Imperium has been reassembled and most humans already worship the God Emperor. The faithful should look at the Sisters and feel righteous.

 Manchu wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Space Marines need to be huge and strong just to be on the same level as a lot of galactic threats.

Then why not make them much, much bigger like a lot of those threats are? The enhanced size of SM logically has more to do with the size of normal humans than xenos. A smaller SM could still kill a hundred orks. But he would not be as intimidating to a normal human. The goal was to bring humans into compliance, not just kill them. The leader of a once-lost human civilization was supposed to stand in front of Horus and his legion and feel small.

It is certainly true that intimidation was key, but 7-9.5 ft (depending on your source) is big enough to swat aside mortal men in melee while still fitting inside buildings and the like.

 Ashiraya wrote:
while still fitting inside buildings and the like.

I guess if whoever designed the buildings had giants in mind ...

 Manchu wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
while still fitting inside buildings and the like.

I guess if whoever designed the buildings had giants in mind ...

According to FW, bionically enhanced Ogryns called Charonites are used for 'claustrophobic boarding actions' and similar tight-space fighting. I think even the 9' Marines will be just fine in 40k's oversized architecture.

I like your interpretations, Manchu, though I'd argue Marine size is also useful for keeping the Imperium's people in awe of the Emperor's Angels of Death, and by extension, the Emperor.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Size is also useful in close combat. Keep in mind 40k is extremely CC-focused compared to our world.

Of course having larger space marines means that you have to use more resources to equipt and maintain them, both in terms of having to build larger armour and guns for them to use to not being able to fit an extra marine or two in a rhino or dropped. Logisicly in makes sense to make smaller marines who also happen to make smaller targets, more stealthy and are able to fit in smaller places. Nothing is more embarasing then not being able to chase heretics cause the doorway is to small.

You're a fething Marine, son. If there's no way through, you MAKE a way through.

Then the building collapses on you because you damaged its structural integrity, and the heretic gets away. GGWP.

...A building will not collapse because you broke off a bit of wall above the door.

As said, 40k architecture is oversized enough to have Ogryns be practical as tight-zone specialists. Astartes will have no problems.

Just because spacefaring vessels are oversized doesn't mean every fortress and hideout is going to be, too. Indeed, just reading Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain gives plenty of examples of tunnel fighting that wouldn't allow for anything as big as an Astartes, never mind an Ogryn.

And yes, a mutant clad in several-ton armor prancing through walls is bound to do structural damage, and not every building in 40k is built to code.

 Melissia wrote:
Just because spacefaring vessels are oversized doesn't mean every fortress and hideout is going to be, too. Indeed, just reading Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain gives plenty of examples of tunnel fighting that wouldn't allow for anything as big as an Astartes, never mind an Ogryn.

And yes, a mutant clad in several-ton armor prancing through walls is bound to do structural damage, and not every building in 40k is built to code.

Fortunately, rooting out heretics in hives is Arbites jobs, not Astartes.

In addition, Astartes are not mutated (indeed, they are extremely resistant to mutation).

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Just because spacefaring vessels are oversized doesn't mean every fortress and hideout is going to be, too. Indeed, just reading Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain gives plenty of examples of tunnel fighting that wouldn't allow for anything as big as an Astartes, never mind an Ogryn.

And yes, a mutant clad in several-ton armor prancing through walls is bound to do structural damage, and not every building in 40k is built to code.

Fortunately, rooting out heretics in hives is Arbites jobs, not Astartes.

In addition, Astartes are not mutated (indeed, they are extremely resistant to mutation).

Heresy and rebellion can often be found in Hives - if the rebellion is successful - the Astartes cna be called upon to clense them - Wrath of Iron depicts this in a realisticlaly brutal manner.... being trapped in a small space with a Space Marine trying to kill you would be horrifc - be like being trapped with an angry and armed Silverback Gorilla!

In close quarter fighting, good armour and sensors/senses is going to be very valuable so both Astartes and Sororitas would be highly effective - and both do have plenty fo very powerful close range weapons and flamers.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:
Acts of Faith
It's worked well as something truly unique to the sisters, but not always something that's been as effective as it could be. Regardless of what form it takes (and several dakkaknights have already made good suggestions) it -needs- to be in any new codex. Given that miracles rarely occur when there's no dire need for them, it makes sense that Acts of Faith should grow more powerful (or more powerful ones should be unlocked) the more mauled an SoB force gets.

I like the idea of Sisters being a counter-punch / "it'll cost you" faction where tactically, you ideally want to be taking casualties at a steady rate, so you can apply the boosts of power that make your normally-weaker options hit above their weight bracket. The opponent, on the other hand, wants to try and control what they kill, making sure you can't use the casualties you took to let those surviving Repentia carve up your tank, or make that objective-sitting squad harder to kill.

Other stuff that could be added in giving the non-militant orders some presence. Perhaps attaching Hospitalier healers to squads, having Dialogus advisors giving bonuses to critical rolls, and that one mortician order appearing with a mobile reliquiary from which they can evoke miracles and inspire nearby allies.

Indeed, Acts of Faith could work like some kind of cross between blood tithe points, power from pain, and its current iteration.

Perhaps each squad gains +1 to its shield of faith save for each 25% of the unit destroyed, cumulating to a 3++ save for the last 25% or somesuch. Call the rule Spirit of the Martyr, or something.

Also, each unit could have a once-per-game faith power that gets refreshed when another unit of the same type is destroyed, or something.

Idk just brainstorming.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I say percent because that way units can still be huge blobs or MSU without the rule suddenly becoming useless or something.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Just because spacefaring vessels are oversized doesn't mean every fortress and hideout is going to be, too. Indeed, just reading Gaunt's Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain gives plenty of examples of tunnel fighting that wouldn't allow for anything as big as an Astartes, never mind an Ogryn.

And yes, a mutant clad in several-ton armor prancing through walls is bound to do structural damage, and not every building in 40k is built to code.

Fortunately, rooting out heretics in hives is Arbites jobs, not Astartes.

In addition, Astartes are not mutated (indeed, they are extremely resistant to mutation).

That's why Mars invented the Flame Thrower.

Which sisters have a ton of, along with the heavier, deadlier variant. Frankly, Sisters are better at cleaning out a heretical hive city than Astartes are

Cleaning out a hive makes me think there would be a lot of punching at which sisters are not so great.

 deviantduck wrote:
Cleaning out a hive makes me think there would be a lot of punching at which sisters are not so great.

Sisters in power armor are certainly better at punching than the average hive worlder, both in terms of skill and power. Furthermore, outside of the Exorcist's long-ranged missiles or the medium-range heavy bolter (the latter of which is useful in long roads and corridors in creating a no-man's-land), all Sororitas weaponry is short ranged at best. Short-ranged engagements are sort of what Sisters do.

For sure, SoB are going to be much better at crawling through tight bunkers, tunnels, sewers and the like.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Size is also useful in close combat. Keep in mind 40k is extremely CC-focused compared to our world.

It has been demostrated historically that size is not any sort of advantage in close combat. That is why any girl would stand even odds against a heavyweight fighter in a MMA fight. Right?

 Paimon wrote:
Firstly, as for the Space Marines power armor vs Sisters power armor: IMO Power Armor should give 3+ save and +1 Str, regardless of who uses it.

I prefer Sisters having a human statline, myself. Maybe an elite unit would have S4 because of superior equipment, but them having the human T3/S3 baseline is a defining part of them.

 Melissia wrote:

 Paimon wrote:
Firstly, as for the Space Marines power armor vs Sisters power armor: IMO Power Armor should give 3+ save and +1 Str, regardless of who uses it.

I prefer Sisters having a human statline, myself. Maybe an elite unit would have S4 because of superior equipment, but them having the human T3/S3 baseline is a defining part of them.

I definitely agree. The S3/T3/I3 is very defining for humans, and exceptions are extremely rare even by the standards we're talking here (Assassins of all types for example, or Harker), and those people are pretty much superhuman.

 Melissia wrote:

 Paimon wrote:
Firstly, as for the Space Marines power armor vs Sisters power armor: IMO Power Armor should give 3+ save and +1 Str, regardless of who uses it.

I prefer Sisters having a human statline, myself. Maybe an elite unit would have S4 because of superior equipment, but them having the human T3/S3 baseline is a defining part of them.

Certainly. The fact that they are 'merely' human and still achieve such miracles is part of what makes them so intriguing.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The S3/T3/I3 is very defining for humans, and exceptions are extremely rare even by the standards we're talking here (Assassins of all types for example, or Harker), and those people are pretty much superhuman.

Nah, I4 I can see within the realm of elite troops like Celestians. But even Orks don't have S4 unless they're charging (though that rule has changed so many times I'm not even sure if it's true any more; I haven't played my Orks in an eternity).

We've had this dance before, but I continue to argue that I4 is superhuman speed. I acknowledge that your opinion differs though, so let's not have another 5 page war about it.

And S4 is superhuman strength...

Yiss, outside of 1-in-a-gazillion cases like Harker or those with extensive cybernetics.