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Melissia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I enjoy the Sisters immensely as an army, but I think the units they have available to them right now are more than sufficient for a codex. What I do not want to see are Sisters with 2+ saves, Sisters on bikes, or Sisters in super-heavies. It's the path of least resistance to make them "Marines Light" and it's lazy design.

Are Eldar "marines light"? Or Orks? Almost all armies have at least two of those three.

Marines don't own the idea of 2+ saves, bikes, or super-heavies.

Sisters on bikes and in termie armor have never existed. When we create our own ideas about what we believe a new Sisters 'dex should include, we're not hobbled by GW's need to SELL MOAR MODELS!! So, we don't need to create Centurions and Hunter/Stalkers and shoehorn them into fluff. There's a wealth of existing fluff to draw upon, don't reinvent the wheel just because you can.

deviantduck wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:

HS: Merge Doms and Rets into a single unit, 5-10 ladies, access to 4 special or heavy weapons.

Holy crap no. It's already rets vs exorcists, you want to throw doms into that mix?

If you fix the list and make underperdorming units attractive choices, you're not restricted to just the same cookie-cutter army lists we see now. Y'know the Celestine/2 Sisters minimum/3 Doms/3 Exo army lists you're obviously familiar with.

The nice thing about the olden days of spamming the Book of St. Lucius was that you could actually turn it off - if, say, you wanted to have your I5 (Due to The Passion) Sisters squad break away from a combat they're losing, you could elect to not use the Book, suffer leadership penalties and flee to your hearts content - while at the same time choosing to use the book when you wanted to stick in combat.

Sisters in terminator armour? No, thanks. But something like the Militarised Power Loaders from the Aliens comics? That would be awesome.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down.

Sisters don't need to be just another horde army. Go play astra militarium if that's all you want, and apparently it is.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Sisters on bikes and in termie armor have never existed

Centurions never existed. Until they did.

It's strange that people object to THIS stuff,but not to Hwang's oddball suggestion to completely re-write Sisters in to something entirely different.

I could see Artificer Armor instead of Terminator Armor.

 Melissia wrote:
Go play astra militarium if that's all you want, and apparently it is.

There's AM units with 4+/5++?

Well, aside from Bullgryns, but honestly, I don't think you need to worry about SoB becoming too much like Bullgryns.

Most Eldar are 4+, and I would not call them a horde army, so it's not fair to label it that way anyhow.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
i think they should be rolled into the militarium tempestus codex as the schole progenium codex which would grant the sisters access to storm troopers, withch hunters, and limited access to vindicare temple assassins.

As a standalone force Sisters are like Harlequins, narrow and limited. While that may have worked back in 2E and been marginal in 3E, with the expansion of everything in 6E / 7E, there's just too much ground to make up at this point. If Sisters are to survive, they need to be married into a more successful framework, either Stormtroopers or Inquisition. Regardless, the recent expansion of Stormtroopers into a full blown Codex shows Sisters to be an obsolete, redundant luxury.

Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.

To me, sisters are just begging to be given the dark eldar treatment. Give 'em some new models, some tighter rules (though I don't hate the current rules), and some snazzy formations. To me, they're far from obsolete.

That said, giving them 4+ armor and taking away their acts of faith would just turn them into less interesting storm troopers, and those changes *would* make them obsolete. To each their own, but I much prefer power armor and cool semi-miraculous powers to storm troopers with bolters that can't deepstrike. Those "fiddly" bits you dislike are actually a big part of why I just purchased my first few sisters. I love the idea of (more or less) regular humans wearing power armor. They aren't the inhuman battle monsters marines are, but they aren't being written off as ablative wounds in the imperial guard either. They're humans that someone bothered to give decent gear. The acts of faith are a cool mechanic (even if I'd kind of like to see it reworked) that makes them feel different from other factions rather than just being a collection of points values and weapons profiles.

A price decrease (or some sort of minor buff) is probably called for, but you don't have to nerf them to get it. Marines have gone down in price two editions in a row, haven't they? If guys with better statlines, gear, and reliable powers (no leadership test for most chapter tactics, and you can use those tactics all game in most cases) weren't worth their price tag, sisters could probably stand either a mild discount or a mild boost of some sort.

As has been pointed out, if you're going to nerf them, lower their points cost, and take away their cool unique rules, why not play scions or even IG instead?

Also, high points cost with T3 works just fine for eldar. There's no reason it couldn't work for sisters. Not that I'm advocating turning them into aspect warriors, but high cost T3 with a 3+ (or worse) armor save wouldn't be anything new.

Regarding 2+ armor, I don't particularly like the idea of terminator sisters, but I do kind of like the idea of sanguinary guard style sisters. Less terminator, more artificer, with optional wings or jump pack engines. At toughness three, they still wouldn't be especially durable, but they'd be durable enough (especially next to their fellows) to feel distinct from the girls in power armor, and that 2+ armor mixed with a melee loadout could make them a reasonable melee unit to bully enemy units with. I still probably wouldn't throw them at dedicated melee units though.

Advocating for nerfing stats and reducing cost is making the army more of a horde army. There's no way around that. That's how horde armies are defined.

Well yes, I am also sure that for some people GK strike squads are far too hordy and only Terminators are enough.

I don't really think anything 10 ppm or above is anywhere near a horde, especially not when upgrades, special weapons, squad leaders, transports etc. factor in.

 Melissia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Sisters on bikes and in termie armor have never existed

Centurions never existed. Until they did.

I'm assuming you missed the rest of the sentences after that sentence and just hit the reply button so fast that the rest of my post was futile, but I specifically named Centurions and I objected to them being created. Just as I would object to Sister bikers or Sisters in up-armored suits of power armor being pulled from someone's butthole to fill an imagined need in the Sisters army list.

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm assuming you missed the rest of the sentences after that

I did. They were irrelevant.

As was your objection of "being pulled from someone's butthole". Every new unit is "pulled from someone's butthole". That's how the creative process at GW works.

I propose the following new units:

Faithknight - a monstrous creature consisting of a sister in power armor inside a larger suit of armor encased within a giant robot. Armed with the faithcannon, which is Strength D assault 6 range 48" AP2. The unit costs 90 points and has 6 wounds.

Centurionettes - Sisters in centurion armor. Armed with twin-linked heavy grav cannons.

Brothers of Battle - Power-armored units with bolters, upgraded strength and toughness, LD 9 and a special rule that makes them automatically pass fear and regroup tests. I'm thinking they could cost around 14 points each and have access to razorbacks and drop pods.

Also Repentia squads should have 3++ saves, non-unwieldy S8 weapons, drop pods and new models with less clothing.

As someone just getting into sisters, I'm not really opposed to the introduction of new In the hypothetical situation where GW actually makes something new for them, I imagine we'd also be seeing lots of plastic sisters kits and a big influx of sisters players who would also be buying sisters stuff for the first time and thus not feel like they were being made to change their armies or what have you.

I like the units that are in the Sisters book right now, but they pretty much include:

* About 5 units of "people who done messed up"

* Metal box with big gun
*Metal box with little gun and leg space.

*sisters with bolters
*sisters with extra flamers/meltas
*sisters with jump packs
*sisters with extra heavy weapons
*sisters but slightly better
*sister but even slightly better than that and with relics

*priests
*celestine

It's nice to have a cohesive feeling army, but I also wouldn't mind a little variety. ^_^;

To compare, my dark eldar can have
*space elf crime family units
*space elf gladiators
*space elf mad scientists
*space elf mad scientist body horror experiments
*sun-worshipping winged messengers
*mysterious, vaguely daemonic hybrids
* space elf samurai mercenaries
* Space elf gang members on hover boards

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.

That said, giving them 4+ armor and taking away their acts of faith would just turn them into less interesting storm troopers, and those changes *would* make them obsolete.

To each their own, but I much prefer power armor and cool semi-miraculous powers to storm troopers with bolters that can't deepstrike. Those "fiddly" bits you dislike are actually a big part of why I just purchased my first few sisters.

A price decrease (or some sort of minor buff) is probably called for, but you don't have to nerf them to get it.

As has been pointed out, if you're going to nerf them, lower their points cost, and take away their cool unique rules, why not play scions or even IG instead?

Also, high points cost with T3 works just fine for eldar. There's no reason it couldn't work for sisters.

Regarding 2+ armor, I don't particularly like the idea of terminator sisters, but I do kind of like the idea of sanguinary guard style sisters.

Stormtrooper with an automatic 5++ invulnerable save and a better gun makes them obsolete? What game to you play? The biggest weakness with Storms is that their guns are crap, and that they die to easily. S4 is better better S3, and 5++ lets them save against EVERYTHING.

Nubcake, I purchased my first Sisters at the start of 3E, before Acts of Faith existed.

I do play IG, but IG don't have 4+/5++ saves nor A4 AP5 Bolters. If you could show me where those are, I'd be surprised. And that automatic 5++? Better than having to roll the dice for it.

Eldar already have the super-elite T3 niche. Sisters are NOT welcome to overlap it. Sisters are just ordinary humans with sub-SM tech, not Eldar hyper tech. They should cost less than Eldar Aspects, just 1 single point more than Storms.

If the base Sister is 4++/5++, that opens the door for a MEQ Elite Sister with 3+/5++. Or even 3+/4++. That would be significant, too.

Chroming up Sisters because you have Eldar envy, SM envy, that's a bad idea. Marginally pricier than Storms is the ideal target point for Sisters, slotting them clearly below superhuman SMs and Eldar. At roughly 10 pts per model, that's not a horde. Guard at 5 pts per model is a horde. Cheap Gaunts and Boyz are a horde. But 10 pts base? Not a horde. What Sisters should not be is elite like Eldar or SMs, and that means keeping their points and abilities at 12 pts, max.

 Melissia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm assuming you missed the rest of the sentences after that

I did. They were irrelevant.

As was your objection of "being pulled from someone's butthole". Every new unit is "pulled from someone's butthole". That's how the creative process at GW works.

So, you created a thread to discuss how someone OTHER than GW would improve the Sisters 'dex, then explained to my why we should continue to do things the GW way? Why create new units when the ones we have work perfectly fine without the addition of nonsense like we have every time GW updates a codex: dreadknights, tauroxes, centurions, murderfang, wraithknights, riptides, etc?

But I'm guesing you stopped reading my reply after the first couple words because the rest was irrelevant, right?

 the_Armyman wrote:
So, you created a thread to discuss how someone OTHER than GW would improve the Sisters 'dex, then explained to my why we should continue to do things the GW way?

I created this thread to talk about how people envision the best way to do this. That doesn't mean I have to agree with everyone.

I don't find this objection relevant. All new units involve retcons due to the nature of 40k. No exceptions. There have been no units ever added since rogue trader that didn't 'tinvolve some kind of retcon. So there's really no point in objecting to retconning a new unit in to existence in my eyes.

First things i'd change:
Penitent engines to Elite slot. Make them MCs (but fair?) and bring back their crazy can create more hits on more hits rules. They're supposed to be a flaming cheese grater or doom. DOOOM!!

Exorcists get a dual firing mode, D6 str 8 ap1, or st5 ap4 large blast. Call the second mode promethium missile or something. No anti-air missiles, that's lame.

Repentia need an all the time 4+ FNP against shooting, since their current FNP is useless being only in assault.

Celestians should be moved to troops and given an assault themed loadout with similar stats and costs to battle sisters. perhaps BS 3, WS 4, s 3, t 3 init 4, att 2

Canoness gets a jump pack and a little beefier in assault.

Bring back celestine's infinite do-overs. My favorite games were when she died on turn 1, then resurrected on turn 6 to save the day. Plus Yarrick is lonely being the last one alive when the dust settles.

Create some form of priest themed faith wagon. I picture an over the top Taurox as a form of faith bubble in the center of the army.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.

That said, giving them 4+ armor and taking away their acts of faith would just turn them into less interesting storm troopers, and those changes *would* make them obsolete.

To each their own, but I much prefer power armor and cool semi-miraculous powers to storm troopers with bolters that can't deepstrike. Those "fiddly" bits you dislike are actually a big part of why I just purchased my first few sisters.

A price decrease (or some sort of minor buff) is probably called for, but you don't have to nerf them to get it.

As has been pointed out, if you're going to nerf them, lower their points cost, and take away their cool unique rules, why not play scions or even IG instead?

Also, high points cost with T3 works just fine for eldar. There's no reason it couldn't work for sisters.

Regarding 2+ armor, I don't particularly like the idea of terminator sisters, but I do kind of like the idea of sanguinary guard style sisters.

Stormtrooper with an automatic 5++ invulnerable save and a better gun makes them obsolete? What game to you play? The biggest weakness with Storms is that their guns are crap, and that they die to easily. S4 is better better S3, and 5++ lets them save against EVERYTHING.

Nubcake, I purchased my first Sisters at the start of 3E, before Acts of Faith existed.

I do play IG, but IG don't have 4+/5++ saves nor A4 AP5 Bolters. If you could show me where those are, I'd be surprised. And that automatic 5++? Better than having to roll the dice for it.

Eldar already have the super-elite T3 niche. Sisters are NOT welcome to overlap it. Sisters are just ordinary humans with sub-SM tech, not Eldar hyper tech. They should cost less than Eldar Aspects, just 1 single point more than Storms.

If the base Sister is 4++/5++, that opens the door for a MEQ Elite Sister with 3+/5++. Or even 3+/4++. That would be significant, too.

Chroming up Sisters because you have Eldar envy, SM envy, that's a bad idea. Marginally pricier than Storms is the ideal target point for Sisters, slotting them clearly below superhuman SMs and Eldar. At roughly 10 pts per model, that's not a horde. Guard at 5 pts per model is a horde. Cheap Gaunts and Boyz are a horde. But 10 pts base? Not a horde. What Sisters should not be is elite like Eldar or SMs, and that means keeping their points and abilities at 12 pts, max.

No need to be rude.

Scions don't have the 5+ invul, but they do have 4+ armor. Considering most small arms are ap 5 or worse, you would be using that 4+ armor quite a bit which would make them feel similar in terms of durability most of the time. That 5+ invul would be nice when it came up, but they'd feel very similar. I'd rather have the 3+ armor save both to make them feel more distinctive and to let them stand up to small arms fire better. Strength 4 is better, sure, but bolt weapons really aren't very impressive. I'd be fine with storm troopers having access to an option to be more similar to Sisters, but a hypothetical 4+/5++ sister with a boltgun is still going to feel pretty similar to a storm trooper most of the time thus making them, in my eyes, redundant. So maybe they wouldn't be "obsolete," but they would be redundant enough for me to disagree with a change in that direction.

The 5+ invul save, I'd also point out, is a bit less useful when you consider that it's pretty easy to get at least a 5+ cover save, so the 5+ invul would mostly be a melee thing, and I don't get the impression that sisters are prone to winning melee most of the time.

This "nubcake" is very glad that you've been enjoying your army since before acts of faith were a thing. I maintain that their mini-miracles are one of the things that makes them appealing as an army. Taking faith powers away, especially if you also made them into carapace armored troops, would leave them feeling pretty bland to me. At that point, they'd pretty much just be carapace armored veterans riding in immolators rather than chimeras or storm troopers who traded their ability to deepstrike for a supply of boltguns.

As I mentioned in my post, I'm not advocating turning sisters into aspect warriors. You had mentioned something to the effect that making t3 models more expensive but more effective didn't work, so I was pointing out that for some armies it does. I agree that's not the direction to take sisters though.

Leaving sisters in power armor doesn't preclude the possibility of giving more elite sisters 3+/5++ or 3+/4++ saves. You can simply say their faith is stronger or the Emperor smiles upon them or whatever. While I like the idea of elite, better-protected sisters, they don't have to make the "normal" sisters wear carapace armor to get that.

I actually agree that sisters should be somewhere in the ballpark of 10 to 12 points apiece. Based on your post quoted in my last post, I got the impression you were looking to lower their costs even further. You were, after all, advocating taking away special rules, weakening their armor saves, saying that lowering their points was the most important change you'd make, and pointing out that they aren't space marines.

Also, I'm fairly certain I don't have "eldar envy" considering eldar are my main army. If I really wanted to play eldar, I would just, er, play my eldar.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Spoiler:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.

That said, giving them 4+ armor and taking away their acts of faith would just turn them into less interesting storm troopers, and those changes *would* make them obsolete.

To each their own, but I much prefer power armor and cool semi-miraculous powers to storm troopers with bolters that can't deepstrike. Those "fiddly" bits you dislike are actually a big part of why I just purchased my first few sisters.

A price decrease (or some sort of minor buff) is probably called for, but you don't have to nerf them to get it.

As has been pointed out, if you're going to nerf them, lower their points cost, and take away their cool unique rules, why not play scions or even IG instead?

Also, high points cost with T3 works just fine for eldar. There's no reason it couldn't work for sisters.

Regarding 2+ armor, I don't particularly like the idea of terminator sisters, but I do kind of like the idea of sanguinary guard style sisters.

Stormtrooper with an automatic 5++ invulnerable save and a better gun makes them obsolete? What game to you play? The biggest weakness with Storms is that their guns are crap, and that they die to easily. S4 is better better S3, and 5++ lets them save against EVERYTHING.

Nubcake, I purchased my first Sisters at the start of 3E, before Acts of Faith existed.

I do play IG, but IG don't have 4+/5++ saves nor A4 AP5 Bolters. If you could show me where those are, I'd be surprised. And that automatic 5++? Better than having to roll the dice for it.

Eldar already have the super-elite T3 niche. Sisters are NOT welcome to overlap it. Sisters are just ordinary humans with sub-SM tech, not Eldar hyper tech. They should cost less than Eldar Aspects, just 1 single point more than Storms.

If the base Sister is 4++/5++, that opens the door for a MEQ Elite Sister with 3+/5++. Or even 3+/4++. That would be significant, too.

Chroming up Sisters because you have Eldar envy, SM envy, that's a bad idea. Marginally pricier than Storms is the ideal target point for Sisters, slotting them clearly below superhuman SMs and Eldar. At roughly 10 pts per model, that's not a horde. Guard at 5 pts per model is a horde. Cheap Gaunts and Boyz are a horde. But 10 pts base? Not a horde. What Sisters should not be is elite like Eldar or SMs, and that means keeping their points and abilities at 12 pts, max.

No need to be rude.

Scions don't have the 5+ invul, but they do have 4+ armor. Considering most small arms are ap 5 or worse, you would be using that 4+ armor quite a bit which would make them feel similar in terms of durability most of the time. That 5+ invul would be nice when it came up, but they'd feel very similar. I'd rather have the 3+ armor save both to make them feel more distinctive and to let them stand up to small arms fire better. Strength 4 is better, sure, but bolt weapons really aren't very impressive. I'd be fine with storm troopers having access to an option to be more similar to Sisters, but a hypothetical 4+/5++ sister with a boltgun is still going to feel pretty similar to a storm trooper most of the time thus making them, in my eyes, redundant. So maybe they wouldn't be "obsolete," but they would be redundant enough for me to disagree with a change in that direction.

The 5+ invul save, I'd also point out, is a bit less useful when you consider that it's pretty easy to get at least a 5+ cover save, so the 5+ invul would mostly be a melee thing, and I don't get the impression that sisters are prone to winning melee most of the time.

This "nubcake" is very glad that you've been enjoying your army since before acts of faith were a thing. I maintain that their mini-miracles are one of the things that makes them appealing as an army. Taking faith powers away, especially if you also made them into carapace armored troops, would leave them feeling pretty bland to me. At that point, they'd pretty much just be carapace armored veterans riding in immolators rather than chimeras or storm troopers who traded their ability to deepstrike for a supply of boltguns.

As I mentioned in my post, I'm not advocating turning sisters into aspect warriors. You had mentioned something to the effect that making t3 models more expensive but more effective didn't work, so I was pointing out that for some armies it does. I agree that's not the direction to take sisters though.

Leaving sisters in power armor doesn't preclude the possibility of giving more elite sisters 3+/5++ or 3+/4++ saves. You can simply say their faith is stronger or the Emperor smiles upon them or whatever. While I like the idea of elite, better-protected sisters, they don't have to make the "normal" sisters wear carapace armor to get that.

I actually agree that sisters should be somewhere in the ballpark of 10 to 12 points apiece. Based on your post quoted in my last post, I got the impression you were looking to lower their costs even further. You were, after all, advocating taking away special rules, weakening their armor saves, saying that lowering their points was the most important change you'd make, and pointing out that they aren't space marines.

Also, I'm fairly certain I don't have "eldar envy" considering eldar are my main army. If I really wanted to play eldar, I would just, er, play my eldar.

Nor to be condescending, which is how your earlier reply seemed tinged. Maybe we'll just pretend that we're both chill and kidding.

That 4+/5++ is supposed to be roughly Storm-equivalent. Clearly better than Guard, clearly worse than Eldar & SM, marginally better than Storms should be "just right." I think the passive save bonus and Bolter is an improvement, and I would like 3+ to be rarer. It makes a clear progression:

WS3 BS3
- 5pts T3 Sv5+ S3 AP- Guardsman

WS3 BS4
- 10 pts T3 Sv4+ S3 AP3 Stormtrooper (currently overpriced at 12 pts)
- 11 pts T3 Sv4+/5++ S4 AP5 Sister

WS4 BS4
- 13 pts T3 Sv4+ S4 AP5 Dire Avenger
- 14 pts T4 Sv3+ S4 AP5 Space Marine (UM)
The Dire Avenger being 13 pts is why Sisters cannot cost more than 12 pts, and the Stormie being worth 10 pts (9?) sets minimum at 11 pts. With IG Vets at 6 pts, one could reasonably argue that Storms should be 8 or 9 pts, but I won't quibble over that.

While Cover is often available, there is a difference between Sisters having to hug terrain and go to ground, vs striding forward into the open without a need for such. Guard have lots of Heavy Weapons, and are totally OK hanging back in the trees and rubble 24+" from the enemy. But Sisters? They need to bring Flamers and Meltas to bear at ranges of 6-9", along with double-tapping Bolters <12". Being able to stride out in the open with that automatic 5++ makes that happen. It is a design point to push the girls out of the woods, something that a straight 3+ doesn't give, because Sisters will tend to hug the trees whenever they come up against anti-MEQ forces (and there are lots of them).

Sisters have been around for a long time. Chroming them up didn't make them sell any better, but it did set some strange expectations that are out of step from their seminal release. If you want Faith to be renamed not-Psyker powers, that's fine, I'm OK with that. I just think it's not necessary, and takes focus away from the core.

I'm glad we're agreed that Sisters shouldn't be Aspects. Yay!

I'm also glad we're agreed Sisters should cost 10-12 pts, although I do find 12 pts to be a bit much for what they are.

Eldar are my largest army, and I have Sisters and Guard and Storms and SM and CSM. I would like them all to be different in meaningful ways. With the meta having so much Sv3+, it would be refreshing NOT to limit 3+ to Marines and Chaos Marines, only.

Making Sisters in to 4+ saves with no acts of faith just turns them in to nothing more than special snowflake guardsmen, and that's really kind of boring.

There's no appeal to the way you're describing them, nothing to make them stand out-- and thus no real reason for them to exist.

Hwang just wants to make Space Marines more special. He's actually on my Ignore list for his constant anti-Sisterhood trolling - he's offended by their existence because they're not Space Marines but they're just as awesome as Space Marines.. except with cooties.

 deviantduck wrote:
First things i'd change:
Penitent engines to Elite slot. Make them MCs (but fair?) and bring back their crazy can create more hits on more hits rules. They're supposed to be a flaming cheese grater or doom. DOOOM!!

Exorcists get a dual firing mode, D6 str 8 ap1, or st5 ap4 large blast. Call the second mode promethium missile or something. No anti-air missiles, that's lame.

Repentia need an all the time 4+ FNP against shooting, since their current FNP is useless being only in assault.

Celestians should be moved to troops and given an assault themed loadout with similar stats and costs to battle sisters. perhaps BS 3, WS 4, s 3, t 3 init 4, att 2

Canoness gets a jump pack and a little beefier in assault.

Bring back celestine's infinite do-overs. My favorite games were when she died on turn 1, then resurrected on turn 6 to save the day. Plus Yarrick is lonely being the last one alive when the dust settles.

Create some form of priest themed faith wagon. I picture an over the top Taurox as a form of faith bubble in the center of the army.

I really like the idea of the priest wagon. Would be even better if we could get Frateris Milita back to go with it. Cheep cannon fodder. Make them better if there is a SoB unit near them. Pretty fluffy IMO.

And Celestians into troops as non-jump assault troops is not bad either. I'd prefer being able to kit them out as Vanguard/Sternguard vets, but your sugesstion has merit as well.

I do trully miss my "can't keep her down Living Saint" Best game I had was vs Orks. Every turn she's flame and assault Gaz and his squad, he'd squish her, she'd come back, repeat. The Ork player and I were dying in laugher."will you just stay dead already! I can't get Gaz away from her!" My retributors had rended his ride to death the turn before this started.

If they wear power armor, and pay for it, they should have a 3+ save. End of.

If people wanted to play female IG, they could just buy a bunch of Victoria miniatures models and call it a day.

 kronk wrote:
If they wear power armor, and pay for it, they should have a 3+ save. End of.

If people wanted to play female IG, they could just buy a bunch of Victoria miniatures models and call it a day.

To be fair, 4+ is not IG's territory - 5+ is.

Some IG units have 4+, but some Space Marine units (Scout squads, Recon squads) do too.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Hwang just wants to make Space Marines more special. He's actually on my Ignore list for his constant anti-Sisterhood trolling - he's offended by their existence because they're not Space Marines but they're just as awesome as Space Marines.. except with cooties.

I don't get it. He was just suggesting a change to saves? Disagreeing is one thing, but 'trolling'?

Battle Sisters wear Power Armour. This has been so ever since they were first introduced in the fluff for Rogue Trader (ie the original Warhammer 40k). Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?

Power Armour in this edition of the game means a 3+ save. Therefore Battle Sisters have a 3+ save.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?

...A naked IG captain eating two heavy bolter shots that would have blown apart normal guardsmen 'reflects the fluff'?

A third of a stormtrooper's shots missing at point blank range 'reflects the fluff'?

Armies just packing up and leaving after a few minutes of combat 'reflects the fluff'?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?

Please, tell me more about how a naked IG captain eating two heavy bolter shots that would have blown apart normal guardsmen 'reflects the fluff'.

Because Characters, especially ones that aren't wearing pansy helmets, are way more badass than some nameless schlub and can do all sorts of cool stuff. That is straight fluff.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?

Please, tell me more about how a naked IG captain eating two heavy bolter shots that would have blown apart normal guardsmen 'reflects the fluff'.

It's simple, he was hit by a glancing blow.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?

Please, tell me more about how a naked IG captain eating two heavy bolter shots that would have blown apart normal guardsmen 'reflects the fluff'.

It's simple, he was hit by a glancing blow.

He wasn't, the exact same shots would have killed any of his men.

I'd like to see their armor be similar to the Tartaros terminator armor from FW, and for there to be 2 or 3 different variants to choose from.

All of the point costs would have to be scaled back to 7th edition which means that everything would get cheaper.

They should have a standard HQ that increases their invulnerable save of the units they join by +1 or +2 with a relic.

I'd like to see something like the chaos boon table applied to miracles and have the possibility to become a living saint mid-game.

All sisters squads should be able to purchase some kind of "holy promethium" that gives their flame weapons the deflagerate special rule, and makes any weapon with the melta special rule trade out melta for armourbane.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Rules should reflect the fluff, because otherwise why would we want to play Warhammer 40,000 and not some other miniature war game?

Please, tell me more about how a naked IG captain eating two heavy bolter shots that would have blown apart normal guardsmen 'reflects the fluff'.

It's simple, he was hit by a glancing blow.

He wasn't, the exact same shots would have killed any of his men.

Only if you interpret a hit within the game as a clean hit. Tabletop games, such as 40K, rarely ever shows the variables that can happen doing a firefight.

Maybe the captain didn't die from the shot, because it only glanced him lightly. Such variables are never explained to you trough the game's rules, instead GW wants you to "FORGE THE NARRITVE" on you own, or some other nonsense.