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I feel that the WD codex "almost" got it right. IMO that was a mostly effective codex for them that needed only a few tweeks. But here is my 2 cents.

Acts of Faith need to not be one use only. Keep them as unit based, as not every unit would prob not benifit at the same moment if it was an army wide one.
While I don't really care for the random chance the D6 points per turn I was ok with. The old witchhunters Faithpoints pool from units with a faithfull model was fine too (my SoB ran 13 faith points then).

Cannoness
Cannones need a reason to take her. Right now she has nothing going for her. If we did the D6 faithpoints per turn, she would add an extra D6. That would be a BIG reason to take one and fluffy IMO as she is supposed to be the super faith in her coven.
Give her the ability to take a jump pack again. I used to run her with my Seraphin and let her go to town.

Celestines
The ability to kit them out as assault or shooty. ie "Any model can swap their bothgun for a combi-bolter, CCW, or power weapon" maybe allow then to purchase special issue ammo. AoF is furious charge in assault or twin linked in shooting.

Penatint Engine
Move to Elites would help it some.
Make it a MC.

I'd like to see Untouchables. Really screw with psychic armies' ability to cast powers. Either add +1 need for successes, have super Shield of Faith (3+ deny the Witch), reduce the number of dice from their pool, etc. Untouchables were so powerful they could shield Russ from Magnus at the Counsel of Nicaea.

Be able to take blob squads of 20 and elite special weapon squads of 5-10.

Make them mobile. Rhino based transports are fine, but give them a skimmer or something.

Hmmm...

-Plastics of course
-A plastic, non-FW flier. Many events still don't allow FW so an allied flier is a requirement.
-Codex rules for Repressor.
-Return to a faith points based for Acts of Faith. I loved having rending more than one turn, and a D6 plus bonuses (say from Celestine etc) would make them significantly more effective.
-An assault vehicle... it could be like a 13/12/12 Land Raider with flamers

Oh, and plastics.

Also, since they have tons of resources at their disposal, a Land Raider style transport with a blessed hull Ceremite Armor wouldn't be out of line.

If acts of faith essentially get turned into psychic powers, how would everyone feel about the following suggestions:

* You don't generate bonus faith points for having sisters on the table; you generate a bonus faith point for each unit of dead sisters as watching their sisters get martyred increases the religious fervor of the living.

* Rules that normally help deny powers (rerolls on psychic dice for instance) don't help because these aren't "psychic powers" and "psychic dice." They're "faith powers" and "faith dice."

While not as immediately useful as a bunch of psykers would be to a psychic army, you'd still generate d6 dice and theoretically have a few rules to boost your faith point pool in the early game. You'd also get more of a "push pull" mechanic where you gain advantages as you start losing units, hopefully making it harder for your opponent to snowball.You'd also theoretically start seeing the bonus dice roll in right around the time you began unloading into the enemy lines.

Sisters are in a bit of an odd spot. They need to be fleshed out a bit more, but keep their focus. It’s real easy to just toss IoM hardware at them, and a lot of it makes sense from a fluff POV. But we need to keep them distinct enough that they don’t just become a SM+boobs.

I liked the old faith point system. It let you start strong, left you weak in the middle game, where your units were mangled, but not martyred yet, and pull out some miracles in the end game. I think a combo of that point system fueling the unit specific AoF would work well. You could use formations to grant new AoFs that could be used by the units within it. This would give the army a “hook” that makes them unique, and meshes well with 7th’s formation happy environment.

One question is wether or not to keep them purely sororitas, or include more eclisiarchy stuff. Or even to go full witch hunter and fold in some of the old inquisition stuff. While part of me would like to see only sisters, I think keeping and adding some more faithful units would help widen the options a bit. I’d leave the inquisition in their own book, with allies, it’s easy to incorporate them into an army if you want.

The canoness needs some boost. Preferably an army wide buff, probably to faith.

Repentia and PEs need help to do their job.

Celestians need a lot of help. They are vets, with a CC AoF, but not the gear for it. There are a lot of ways they could go to fix them (or make multiple units and have more then one option) Let them swap out their bolters for a CCW, take melee weapons rather then special/heavies. Or make them the masters of the close range firefights that define the sisters. Either a AoF that reflects this, or something like counter attack/boost to overwatch, that will help them survive getting close enough to unload.

One problem with adding more SoB units is that they have already done a lot with the basic models. We have special weapon squads, mixed squads, and heavy weapon squads. What else can we do without new kits? Not a lot. One thing would be to copy the marines with the assorted flavors of veterans. Shooty/choppy/honor guard. Or add more units, like militia and more tanks.

As a rhino-hull army, there are plenty of options for more armor. The Baal pred with all the flamers, or the FW one with the melta fit in just fine with the holy trinity. The army lacks AA, so maybe an exorcist duel kit with an skyfire option.

I don't know how much of this has been said (because reading is hard) but I would like to focus on 3 points:

1) The wealth of the Ecclesiarchy.
2) The martial skills of the Adepta Sororitas.
3) The zealous faith of the Adepta Sororitas.

I think #1 could add a few features to the army:
a) Let the Warlord of an army have as many relics as she likes.
b) Let any character buy master-crafted weapons for +X points.
c) Roll on a jokaero-like table called "wealth of the ecclesiarchy" with various benefits.

#2:
a) Be the opposite of Imperial Guard, where large sisters blobs can split up into smaller squads of whatever size (so like 20 girls could be 2 10 girl squads, or 1 10 and 2 5, and so on.)

b) Greater access to special rules (Seraphim already have Hit and Run, so what's a rule like that for every other unit?)

#3:
a) Units should all be LD10 with a character - there's no way their faith would falter as badly as a Marine's!

b) Martyrdom should increase the potency of faith, so perhaps be the opposite of Cult Mechanicus, where faith becomes more potent as models are -destroyed-

c)As faith increases by friendly models slain, so too does the shield of faith save increase by the same measure.

d) Faith should grant the sisters incredible things, like the already-present invulnerable save, that are miracles. Preferred Enemy is not a miracle. An example would be all Boltguns becoming AP1 as their ammunition is imbued with holy radiance or somesuch.

I favour more subtle Acts. >> Less eye lasers, more overcoming physical limitations.

 GoonBandito wrote:
* Make Celestians worth taking

Give Celestians this statline: WS4, BS4, S3, T3, I4, A1, with the option of having boltpistol+chainsword instead of boltgun. If you take bp+sword, the special weapons options change to include power weapon purchases instead of the usual sb/flamer/melta option. For the record, this was their statline until fifth edition came out and knocked some stupid into the codex.

Also, I was thinking that maybe they should revive the old "army of stubborn" idea from 3rd edition, but maybe that's just nostalgia.

In 3rd edition, for those that don't remember, Sisters of Battle had the option of purchasing the Book of St. Lucius on all of their characters and sergeants. And almost always did so, because that allowed the squad, or any other sister squad with a unit within 6", to use the bearer's unmodified leadership value (nine for sergeants, ten for characters, IIRC) for all rolls-- their leadership couldn't 'be reduced below their sergeants' or characters' values depending on which was nearer.

I think that represents Sororitas zealotry rather well. Even in the face of utter horror, their courage doesn't change.

 Nevelon wrote:
But we need to keep them distinct enough that they don’t just become a SM+boobs.

Or just SM + secret hidden boobs for that matter.

 Nevelon wrote:
One question is wether or not to keep them purely sororitas, or include more eclisiarchy stuff.

Definitely not purely sisters BUT yes sisters-centric. The reason being, Adepta Sororitas is the standing army of the Ecclesiarchy. So, on the one hand, even if we ended up with a book called Codex: Ecclesiarchy sisters would still properly remain the focus. And why, on the other hand, not just zoom totally in on sisters? One of the coolest things about sisters is how inspirational they are, given they are regular humans who have superhuman resolve in faith. IMO the best way to show this is not with Acts of Faith superpowers but rather by reflecting it in other non-sororitas units: for example, in their ability to whip up otherwise inferior units (e.g., fratris militia) into a deadly religious frenzy. I think a great sisters book (as opposed to an acceptable one or even a good one) will give a vivid sense that simply being in the presence of these holy ladies is enough to make tearful sinners give everything in service to the Emperor for the sake of repentance. They are basically an army of Joans of Arc, after all.

Man, what a thread. Who'd have thought there'd be a fascinating discussion about SoB in this day and age?

From a fluffy perspective, I found the idea of Sisters as zealot berserkers hard to swallow, power armour or not. They're supposed to be able to handle threats even the Guard can't smash into submission, at least to the way I understood them, and small elite units tend to have greater discipline than regular frontline troops, not less. In that sense, a lot of the freakshow units - the penitent engine etc - just seemed like GW overplaying the joke rather than something that you would expect an elite religious force to deploy.

When it comes to their zealous nature, perhaps some special rule that affects their leadership/morale tests? I think the person above me mentioned that they used to have a universal "Stubborn" rule - perhaps that CAN be resurrected to serve as their special "thing?"

Don't confuse Sisters with Space Marines, like Adpeta Sororitas is some kind of elite precision strike force. That is not who they are. They are an army, not special forces. SoB formations are certainly more elite (read: specialized) than a given Guard formation ... but that makes sense. They are the military of the Ecclesiarchy, rather than the Imperium generally. Their structure reflects the martial dimension of religion: reaffirming the faithful, immolating the damned.

 Manchu wrote:
Don't confuse Sisters with Space Marines, like Adpeta Sororitas is some kind of elite precision strike force. That is not who they are. They are an army, not special forces. SoB formations are certainly more elite (read: specialized) than a given Guard formation ... but that makes sense. They are the military of the Ecclesiarchy, rather than the Imperium generally. Their structure reflects the martial dimension of religion: reaffirming the faithful, immolating the damned.

Granted, they're nowhere near as specialised as the Marines. Even so, if they're a more regular army with better equipment (in equivalent terms, a professional army as compared to one drafted into service or summoned through levy, as a lot of the Guard's regiments are), the idea that they throw themselves into battle like maniacs still doesn't quite fit with the idea of an army designed to fight for and defend the holiest places of the Imperium. I guess I find it difficult to imagine the Ecclesiarchy would entrust their safety and the safety of their most precious relics to a bunch of bloodthirsty nutters.

...That said, this is the Imperium we're talking about, so there's every chance the Ecclesiarchy would do exactly that.

SoB are zealous but they are not mindless berserkers who throw their lives away on a violent whim. Where did you get that idea?

 Manchu wrote:
SoB are zealous but they are not mindless berserkers who throw their lives away on a violent whim. Where did you get that idea?

Some fluff tends to depict them as such. Can't remember which books off the top of my head, but I recall a few Black Library stories that did so. I thought it was pretty daft, myself.

1) is a dex of its own, because.
2) plastics
3) add units

The chance I see is, a dex with the ecclesiarchy in it can add "cannonfodder" without making the whole army pushovers and have more "well supported because deep coffers" units too.
Faith should be their specific "tool".
Problems is, a morale boost isn't as good as many other special "add ons" like useful USR's.
So I would like to :
a) have a nice but uninteruptable Faith mechanic ( not psychic powers )
b) make it balanced because you can't choose freely to activate it because you have to spend points you need to collect first;
b1) make it balanced because the flow of the game increases or decreases your influx of points ( burning heretics and mutants = + , martyrs = ++ for example, loosing that relic = -- )
b2) only the basic level of Faith, "the Emperor protects" as a deny the witch bonus, should be always active.
have some unique gear, equipment, weapons, relics.
a) equipment could add some very specific abilities, upgrades for example.
b) weapons are obviously "in flavor" to keep people happy, but maybe some new aren't bad to have....
c) relics. A must have. And a risk. The danger of loosing them in battle, so you have to reclaim them.
have some Priests and Fatihful ablative wounds, also known as militia...
change the Pentinent to a suicide unit . Like a one use weapon. Maybe deepstrike them? With catapults? Drop em from low altlitude?
add a flier and a AA-upgrade or a pure AA-vehicle.
add a transport. Maybe open topped ( cause the SoB got a 3+ and you can hear their hymns better then..) with a transport capacity of 20 human sized models. Should move 12". Maybe a terrain upgrade too.
maybe different weapons to split the Seraphim and Celestians into 2 builds. One gunslinger / one Spear & shield. So either gun em down or put em up on that spear and pin them to roast em... Maybe flamers always available to all squads.
Immolator = one turret = holy trinity of guns seems ok but, maybe maybe in our age of grav .. to crush his foes under their own blasphemous weight sounds good...
if all else fails, let them have some cavalry. Or bikes?

Plus, Background written by someone who isn't stuck in a "Sales are our only Master" line of thinking. Somebody who deserves the title "Author".

Regarding sisters being "elite," they are and they aren't. According to the book, orders can be as small as 100 girls or as large as 1,000. Which would mean that at most, a given order would be the size of a full-strength space marine chapter. That said, you can presumably whip up an Order a lot faster than you can a Chapter. No need for surgery, less demanding selection for recruits (arguably), less specialized gear (they get the normal-sized bolters, for instance, rather than the astartes-sized ones).

That said, I'm not against throwing out the 100-1,000 strong thing as heresy. Otherwise, every 10 girls you lose in a little skirmish on the tabletop represents a full 1% of your order's maximum possible strength, which doesn't seem quite right.

Personally, I think they fit about right being roughly as elite as scions. They're how humanity's troops probably should be equipped. They've got their cool power armored suit and armor-piercing RPG launcher(bolter), but they aren't as meaty as space marines. Marines still feel extra special next to sisters, but sisters aren't armed with t-shirts and flashlights, as the internet people like to say.

Regarding faith powers, I'm really split on how "flashy" they should be. Generally, I'm a fan of light shows, but having rank and file sisters use prayers to generate overtly supernatural effects seems a bit much. Sisters aren't quite so common as guard, but they aren't exactly rare either, and they seem to spend a lot of time living among imperial populations. Having your local nun know how to literally smite enemies with lightning or make her gun glow with holy light doesn't sit quite right with how I envision sisters.

I kind of like the idea of having access to an elite or HQ choice that represents a special snowflake sister that has exhibited miraculous abilities. They're one-in-a-billion individuals that have gotten their "heresy free' stamps from relevant officials and been allowed to continue serving their orders. These are the girls who can go around throwing cleansing flames at things or healing sisters with the clouds of holy light that surround them. Acts of Faith for regular sisters can remain subtle.

EDIT:
Regarding "fraternis" units or what have you, I recall a Ciaphas Caine story where the local PDF assigned to the same territories as Sisters were essentially under Sororitas command and coordinated their gear/tactics accordingly. I could see this being a fitting "fodder" unit if you really wanted such a thing. I also like the idea of letting the celestians have 2+ armor (with a points increase); it would genuinely make them better at the close-combat roles they seem to sort of kind of be intended for and also give them the cool niche of being a T3 model with a 2+ armor save. The only other model with that that comes to mind is some flavor of inquisitor.

I like the "freakshow" units, but I hate their models. I think they should be a valid option in the same way that haemonculus covens are a valid (but optional) part of the Dark Eldar book.

Wyldhunt wrote:
That said, I'm not against throwing out the 100-1,000 strong thing as heresy.

Totally agree. What little numbers were disclosed never made any sense (there would be more cardinals than sisters!), unless you assumed there were many, many orders.

I assumed that there are thousands, possibly millions, of minor orders that each had a between a few hundred to a few thousand sisters, and close ties to a major order, each one serving a specific interest (IE participating in a specific crusade, defending a specific shrine, and so on).

Aren't there only like hundreds of thousands of SoB in the entire galaxy?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Aren't there only like hundreds of thousands of SoB in the entire galaxy?

Each major order had a few hundred thousand I think, but then there's no numbers given for the minor orders. GW is incredibly inconsistent about this. Hell, GW is inconsistent about the number of orders majoris, period-- at one point saying there was only three or four, when every other source said six.

That is pretty much what I assumed as well but it never really sat right with me because of how prominent (or basically ubiquitous) certain orders seem to be (e.g., Martyred Lady). Chalk it up to Ultramarines effect, I suppose. Still, it would make more sense (to me at least) if GW retconned a given order's ranks to something closer to thirty to fifty thousand if not more. Given the droves of children processed into Schola Progenium throughout the Imperium, this seems anything but far-fetched. (And consider there are something like 20,000 Jesuits IRL.)

 Melissia wrote:
I assumed that there are thousands, possibly millions, of minor orders that each had a between a few hundred to a few thousand sisters, and close ties to a major order.

I tend to sort of envision it that way as well, but the way they talk about orders in things like the Sanctuary 101 novel, they give the impression that orders generally handle a lot of tasks at a time. A given minor order might have a dozen girls guarding a moderately important shrine on some backwater, have a few hundred girls locked in combat on a world near the edge of their "territory," have a couple hundred more shipping off to help out with the latest crusade all the kids are talking about, and then have a few more scattered here and there serving as guardians of ecclesiarchal structures, serving as bodyguards, etc. If the maximum body count for your order is 1,000 girls, you really don't have a lot of manpower to send out on whatever other mission happens to arise.

And then there's the issue of defending whole planets. If you want to play a campaign or make a story or whatever in which a single order (or even several orders) defend an entire planet without significant backup from regular guardsmen, you're potentially looking at a laughably small army. Let's say 5 orders team up to defend a given world. If we stick to the fluff that says an order maxes out at about 1,000 girls, you're looking at 5,000 ladies tops. Compare that to real-world forces that struggle to deal with armies of comparable size. Then Compare that to, say, an ork Waaaagh! With marines (and other factions), you can hand-waive it by saying, "Well, marines are just like, really tough, guys. Even if he goes down in a fight, he's already back up for the next one." With sisters, power armor is only going to save you so many times. When a sister gets shot, bleeding out is a very real possibility. Sisters don't generally survive shots to the head the way marines do. Sisters could bolster their numbers by whipping the local forces into shape, and that's a cool and reasonable idea. But I still don't like the odds of 5,000 sisters + X guys with, at the most, autoguns and lasguns as their best infantry weapon versus an Ork Waagh, a Tyranid fleet, etc.

All of this combines to just make the idea of such small Sister orders a little unwieldy. The idea of minor orders working in tandem with each other and with major orders is a cool one, but if your order is only, say, 500 girls strong, keep track of your casualties in your next fight, consider that the whole engagement is really only a couple minutes of battle in a much larger war, and think about just how quickly that order is evaporating away into nothing. (Yay for run-on sentences!) After a couple of days, less if the fighting goes badly, an entire order could be wiped out, and then it would be time to repaint and rename your whole army. >.< Even sending 1,000 sisters to help the fight on a given planet seems like such a drop in the bucket... Again, marines can get away with it because plot armor and plot power. Which isn't to say that sisters aren't cool; they're just a little more subservient to the laws of physics and mortality than marines are.

I enjoy the Sisters immensely as an army, but I think the units they have available to them right now are more than sufficient for a codex. What I do not want to see are Sisters with 2+ saves, Sisters on bikes, or Sisters in super-heavies. It's the path of least resistance to make them "Marines Light" and it's lazy design.

HQ: Cannoness, rosarius and relic blade as standard. Allow her access to a jump pack again. Make her a bit of a CC beast with good WS and Initiative.

Troops: SoB Squad, 5-20 ladies. Pretty solid as they're currently portrayed.

Elites: Celestians, 5-10 ladies, shock assault unit. WS4 with bolt pistol and cc weapon. Allow squad upgrades to power mauls and eviscerators. Maybe make the Celestian VSS a Palatine with 2 wounds and access to wargear andr relics. Sorta like a Convent Champion type character.

FA: Seraphim, 5-10 ladies, jump infantry. I like them as they are now. A good AoF could give them more bite, especially in that critical charge round.

HS: Merge Doms and Rets into a single unit, 5-10 ladies, access to 4 special or heavy weapons.

The AoF would be the real thing that makes the entire list shine. I'd really have to noodle how I'd tackle that, but the current system is lacking in drama and creativity, IMO. The rest of a "Sisters" 'dex would be Ecclesiarchy!

HQ: Cardinal. A master of buffs. Protect him with a retinue of Crusaders (power weps and storm shields), and give him the ability to inspire with prayer and oration.

Troops: Frateris Militia/Zealots, 20-50 strong, mob weapons and the option to upgrade a select few to demagogues or fanatics with eviscerators and/or flamer type weapons.

Elites: Repentia, 5-10 ladies, eviscerators and FNP. Give them the chance to get where they're going with a one-use ability or a crunchy AoF.

Fast Attack: Arco-flagellants, 5-10 strong, insane CC killing machines. Make them fast and deadly, able to withstand a turn or two of shooting, and then let them expend all their energy in a turn or two of assault.

Heavy Support: Pengines! These things should be terrifying. Faster than dreads, gore-soaked, and in the enemy's grill in turn one. They should be able to blender a squad a turn if left unchecked.

 the_Armyman wrote:
I enjoy the Sisters immensely as an army, but I think the units they have available to them right now are more than sufficient for a codex. What I do not want to see are Sisters with 2+ saves, Sisters on bikes, or Sisters in super-heavies. It's the path of least resistance to make them "Marines Light" and it's lazy design.

Are Eldar "marines light"? Or Orks? Almost all armies have at least two of those three.

Marines don't own the idea of 2+ saves, bikes, or super-heavies.

 Melissia wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I enjoy the Sisters immensely as an army, but I think the units they have available to them right now are more than sufficient for a codex. What I do not want to see are Sisters with 2+ saves, Sisters on bikes, or Sisters in super-heavies. It's the path of least resistance to make them "Marines Light" and it's lazy design.

Are Eldar "marines light"? Or Orks? Almost all armies have at least two of those three.

Marines don't own the idea of 2+ saves, bikes, or super-heavies.

Actually, as much as I enjoy the idea of SoB in TDA, he has a point. Eldar has neither 2+ saves (outside of Phoenix Lords, but then, they are a very special case) nor bikes (they have JETbikes, but they are very different things and Imperial jetbikes are so rare they almost no longer exist). Ork haphazard patchwork tech ensures that they remain very different from the Astartes.

Sydney does this fairly well I think, introducing new units that are useful -and- different.

I keep seeing people claiming the Sisterhood isn't "elite".

There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines. They are that damned elite! They're not an "army" in the traditional sense of the word, they're "simply" the only standing military force the Ecclesiarchy is allowed to have. There are worlds in the Imperium with hundreds of Sisters, there are worlds in the Imperium with a single Sister, and there are worlds in the Imperium without any at all.

As far as the "freak-show" is concerned... well, that is what you would get with a Codex: Ecclesiarchy book. PEngines are an Ecclesiarchy thing... take a heretic, screw its mind up, then unleash it on the enemies of the Church so it can give its life in absolution. The machine is worth more than the person strapped to the front of it, but the Ecclesiarchy is hardly poor and so can well-afford to replace them. The Clerics and Frateris Militia are an Ecclesiarchy thing.

Certain units in the Codex seem to suffer from trying to fill two roles at the same time. This needs to change. A unit should be either ranged-combat focused or close-combat focused, it should not try to be both. The HQ options for Sisters need to be a bit better at the baseline, rather than being huge points-sinks in wargear and relics to become slightly competitive. There needs to be a "generic" Living Saint, perhaps "built" in the same way a C'Tan Shard is, with a base statline and basic abilities, and options to customize in both wargear and Acts of Faith or buff-bubbles.

Obviously, they are going to be few. They are female orphans of Imperial officers with a military aptitude, strength of will, and above-average physical characteristics.

That's a lot of criteria.

 the_Armyman wrote:

HS: Merge Doms and Rets into a single unit, 5-10 ladies, access to 4 special or heavy weapons.

Holy crap no. It's already rets vs exorcists, you want to throw doms into that mix?

 ionusx wrote:
i think they should be rolled into the militarium tempestus codex as the schole progenium codex which would grant the sisters access to storm troopers, withch hunters, and limited access to vindicare temple assassins.

As a standalone force Sisters are like Harlequins, narrow and limited. While that may have worked back in 2E and been marginal in 3E, with the expansion of everything in 6E / 7E, there's just too much ground to make up at this point. If Sisters are to survive, they need to be married into a more successful framework, either Stormtroopers or Inquisition. Regardless, the recent expansion of Stormtroopers into a full blown Codex shows Sisters to be an obsolete, redundant luxury.

Further, Sisters are unnecessarily fiddly. Sisters are basically Stormtroopers with better morale and more faith. I'd remove Acts of Faith entirely and rework their saves to 4+/5++ (the Emperor Protects!); most importantly, I'd bring their points down. They're not SMs, and don't need to cost so much on points. Adding more rules to try and justify a high points cost doesn't work on T3 humans.