Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Melissia wrote:
Barring the "Cherubim" units, do you believe the codex of units I mentioned above is watered down?

No, aside from the Cherubim, I really like the overall shape of that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd honestly like to see this kind of cherubim as a unit:



I see a Sisters book as needing to do two things:

- viable all-Sisters list
- Sisters + Ecclesiarchy list

I think Sisters should be good but expensive troops and Fratris Militia should be unreliable but cheap and upgradeable.

Like Priests, Cherubim could help buff FM. I would also allow Cherubim to buff SoB. Obviously, I think they should be different kinds of buffs. Priests should help with the unit's morale -- something Sisters should not need. Cherubim could give attached units some other bonus, maybe to do with an overarching Acts of Faith mechanic.

In that case, would you want, for example, Cardinals to be a unit-- ecclesiarchal HQ unit? Or does that stomp on the Decree Passive too much?

Nah, I just don't see the upper echelon of the Ecclesiarchy setting foot on the battlefield (outside of Canonesses). I think priests are an adequate representation of the clergy.

I think where a new SoB line of kits/codex could really shine is giving them all new vehicles -- even going so far as to ditch the rhino .. as long as it's not something like a taurox

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
This is pretty much the main problem with Sisters right now. Sisters have little variety-- a few of their units are pointless to take, and even with them, they have little variety.

I certainly understand that having units that are pointless to take is a problem. That should just not happen in any dex. But let's assume for the sake of argument that a new dex would not have any such units; in that case, I don't see a problem with variety. GK were given "variety" and IMO it seems like their theme just got watered down ... or rather their formerly concentrated theme got spread too thin. Now on the other hand, the Necrons got more variety as part of an overhaul that made the whole faction more complicated (to use a neutral term). I don't know that I'd want to see the SoB altered that much in-universe; I feel like their fluff is already pretty interesting. So barring that, it looks like they would get the GK treatment ... which to me is really weak, a lot like how the Sigmarines have melee Sigmarines, and ranged Sigmarines, and winged Sigmarines ... to me, that is boring. And Sisters already have that, a little bit. I'd rather not see them go further down that path.

Am I reading it correct Manchu that you think IF a new dex fixed our problem children (celestians, canoness, repentia, penengines) that you think there is a decent amount of variety within the codex? If so, I for the a large part agree. I certainly don't want to see the SoB get the GK treatment. I feel that although the Sisters do probably need a new unit, I think it is important to come up with an idea that isn't just marine light. Ideally finding a unit type that isn't a direct copy of a marine unit (bikes, snipers, terminators) while still building a unit that isn't just different because its a SoB stand in for a battlefield role that a SM unit already fulfills.

Although I've mentioned this type of unit before in other threads, how about a unit of Sisters that is intended to defend holy sites? Defensive in most respects (possibly riot shields 4++ and power mauls) but comes equipped with their very own Shrine. A fortification of sorts that can only be purchased in conjunction with the unit, has particular significance with the SoB and would have to be deployed (shrine and unit) as an infiltrating unit. This would get it out of the SoB deployment zone and make it seem as if the SoB army was coming to its aid.

The idea could be tweaked, but my main point is that if you fix everything we currently have when you add to the Codex, it shouldn't just be to increase the number of units. Any addition should be to make the SoB army hold even more closely to its fluff and to play the role of a SoB army on the tabletop. The defense of Imperial Holy Sites certainly fits the bill.

Though I would settle for fast and torrent on the Immolator too....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
Like Priests, Cherubim could help buff FM. I would also allow Cherubim to buff SoB. Obviously, I think they should be different kinds of buffs. Priests should help with the unit's morale -- something Sisters should not need. Cherubim could give attached units some other bonus, maybe to do with an overarching Acts of Faith mechanic.

Back when Sisters first got Priests, I modeled them all up as servo skulls and cherubim. So would Cherubim maybe buff a unit somewhat like Tau marker lights?

You read my point correctly, dracpanzer.

As for the unit you describe -- I would absolutely want Adeptus Arbites in the book. You see, I envision it less as Codex: Ecclesiarchy and more as Codex: Imperial First Response. What is it like when orks invade or Chaos cults rise up? We all know it could take years or even decades before the IG arrive. And SM are not likely to ever get there. So it is up to whoever is already there: PDF, Arbites, the faithful masses, and most of all the Sisters of Battle.

I think if all the existing SoB units are well-written (maybe more emphasis on flamers btw), that should be sufficient to accomplish one of the two goals I think the book should have -- i.e., let SoB fans field an all-Sisters list. Folks who want a more varied list should be able to call upon whatever forces the Sisters could rely upon in a first response situation.

 dracpanzer wrote:
So would Cherubim maybe buff a unit somewhat like Tau marker lights?

I was thinking something closer to how pain works with DE.

Honestly why even bother with sisters of battle? I would give them a short write up add them in with inquisition as small group of power armor imp guard with flame throwing weapons and be done with them. I dont see that they should be vast in number nor super powerful. Perhaps they could have some psychic immunity or some special rule to deal with chaos and heritics. Like someone said they are like diet coke... trying to be like coke (Space Marines) but just not quite there and can never be Coke.. if they were they would be Coke aka: Space Marines).

Other than that i can see Tyranids eating them like Squats lol.

 Spacewolfoddballz wrote:
Honestly why even bother with sisters of battle Space Wolves?

Just more food for the Hivemind, right? Who needs Viking Coke anyway?

 Manchu wrote:
Just more food for the Hivemind, right? Who needs Viking Coke anyway?

Doomrider will have your Viking Coke any time of the day!

I prefer Welch's Grape Soda over Coca Cola, anyway. Regardless, that;'s hardly constructive.

I'd like to see the option of fielding a unit of Novices, perhaps with BS3 and maybe not even in power armour but with furious charge (or other special rule) to represent their impetuous nature.

I feel like the sisters need access to some form of special/holy ammo, like what the sternguard currently has.
You could call it incendiary rounds and give it rules similiar to that one ability many of the chaos units have, what was it called again? soulfire? I never bothered to learn its name, since it was a useless rule anyway.

I completely agree with this! Soulfire fits well in my mind. Even giving such an option as promethium filled rounds or something like that just to celestians would actually make them worth taking. As it is there's no real reason to field celestians as they currently are, imo. Giving that sort of thing to sisters would be awesome. Holy promethium for flamers to perhaps add a little extra flavour for the sisters favouring the trinity of flamer, melta and bolter.

Seeing new vehicles- or the very least some kits for rhinos to reflect an ecclesiarchy force- the exorcist is a fantastic example of such flavour and I would love to see similar flavourful vehicles.
For some reason I've always envisioned having a choir amongst the sisters force- a literal choir would be impractical of course, but a bunch of girls voices leading in song and verse amongst a fight and inspiring others around them. I think it was a Ciaphas Cain novel, I don't recall which, that had sisters sitting on a wall singing songs as they laid fire on the enemy- I'd like to see more of that come alive which it did in part with the implementation of the way hymns.

Would love to see the excorcist come with an optional upgrade for d6 s4 ap5 small blast barrage.

 Melissia wrote:
As funny as it is seeing people attempt to CONSTANTLY drag this thread in to an argument that will inevitably get the thread closed, including arguing with a moderator, how about we don't.

 Elric of Grans wrote:

 saithor wrote:
I'll make some suggestions, but as a non-SoB player who's curious on the subject I want to ask, what are the current weak points with the SoB?

A severe lack of options. The army currently only has:
HQ - A HQ-Level Sister who lacks key wargear options, or Special Characters. Also a fluffy-but-useless Command Squad.
Elite - Battle Sisters who cost more points for no meaningful gains, or unarmoured melee Battle Sisters who die before they do anything.
Troops - Basic Battle Sisters (short-range dakka unit)
Fast Attack - Battle Sisters with Scout and more special weapon options, or Battle Sisters with Pistols and Jump Packs.
Heavy Support - Battle Sisters with heavy weapons, an anti-armour Tank and a broken Walker.

+1

This is pretty much the main problem with Sisters right now. Sisters have little variety-- a few of their units are pointless to take, and even with them, they have little variety.

Yeah, it is completely ridiculous. With the variety issue, I know this may be a little to bland but getting some stuff from the SM codex may help a little. Some version of scouts (sisters in training) as a troop choice, access to Predators and Vindicators. I can't think of new units atm, my brain is fried, I'll post some ideas up later.

 saithor wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
As funny as it is seeing people attempt to CONSTANTLY drag this thread in to an argument that will inevitably get the thread closed, including arguing with a moderator, how about we don't.

 Elric of Grans wrote:

 saithor wrote:
I'll make some suggestions, but as a non-SoB player who's curious on the subject I want to ask, what are the current weak points with the SoB?

A severe lack of options. The army currently only has:
HQ - A HQ-Level Sister who lacks key wargear options, or Special Characters. Also a fluffy-but-useless Command Squad.
Elite - Battle Sisters who cost more points for no meaningful gains, or unarmoured melee Battle Sisters who die before they do anything.
Troops - Basic Battle Sisters (short-range dakka unit)
Fast Attack - Battle Sisters with Scout and more special weapon options, or Battle Sisters with Pistols and Jump Packs.
Heavy Support - Battle Sisters with heavy weapons, an anti-armour Tank and a broken Walker.

+1

This is pretty much the main problem with Sisters right now. Sisters have little variety-- a few of their units are pointless to take, and even with them, they have little variety.

Yeah, it is completely ridiculous. With the variety issue, I know this may be a little to bland but getting some stuff from the SM codex may help a little. Some version of scouts (sisters in training) as a troop choice, access to Predators and Vindicators. I can't think of new units atm, my brain is fried, I'll post some ideas up later.

Im for Novices, also i would like Dropods please. Sisters do use them when they march to war. Hell the Entire IoM uses them so they should just get a frelling dataslate that goes in all IoM codexes

 Captain Blood wrote:
I'd like to see the option of fielding a unit of Novices, perhaps with BS3 and maybe not even in power armour but with furious charge (or other special rule) to represent their impetuous nature.

There's a lot of options for Novices in Sister Sydney's fan-dex in the Proposed Rules section. Lot of great ideas and options there, for a lot of units, actually.

 Manchu wrote:
You read my point correctly, dracpanzer.

As for the unit you describe -- I would absolutely want Adeptus Arbites in the book. You see, I envision it less as Codex: Ecclesiarchy and more as Codex: Imperial First Response. What is it like when orks invade or Chaos cults rise up? We all know it could take years or even decades before the IG arrive. And SM are not likely to ever get there. So it is up to whoever is already there: PDF, Arbites, the faithful masses, and most of all the Sisters of Battle.

I would buy the feth out of that!

It lets people who want to go pure sob do so while giving unique and interesting options to other people. It's how Codex Witch hunters should have been.

Plus we need Arbites...

 Manchu wrote:
You read my point correctly, dracpanzer.

As for the unit you describe -- I would absolutely want Adeptus Arbites in the book. You see, I envision it less as Codex: Ecclesiarchy and more as Codex: Imperial First Response. What is it like when orks invade or Chaos cults rise up? We all know it could take years or even decades before the IG arrive. And SM are not likely to ever get there. So it is up to whoever is already there: PDF, Arbites, the faithful masses, and most of all the Sisters of Battle.

I like that, and I'm not against it, but doesn't the IG codex (Sorry, Astra Militarum) do a decent job of supplying Arbites? Veterans in chimeras? Some platoons on foot?

I'd rather not turn the Sisters codex in to the kitchen sink codex

 kronk wrote:
doesn't the IG codex (Sorry, Astra Militarum) do a decent job of supplying Arbites?

No cyber-mastiff sinks it.

 Melissia wrote:
I'd rather not turn the Sisters codex in to the kitchen sink codex

Here's what it would probably look like:

Month 1 - SoB dex
Month 2 - Arbites dex (a la Skitarii dex for AdMech)

As much as Id love to see Arbites... Seeing as how hard it is for GW to do SoB... I wouldn't hold my breath. I'd love to see a book(s) supporting all the schools of the Schola Progenium. Having Scions, Arbites, Commissars, and Sororitas together would make for an interesting army.

My thoughts about additional units and changes which I have posted before

HQ
A customizable living saint that isn't named but can be used to represent something the player dreamed up. I would go with the ability to buy one of several acts of faith which are impressive. Most importantly they need to ability to inspire units in a radius either like the Sanguinor or grants affected units higher Leadership and possibly Fearless.

Also more named characters please. We could use another named Ecclesiarchy guy or two. I would love to see the return of Arch Confessor Kyrinov. I'd also like to see Saint Praxedes return and make her a bad-ass monster hunter with some thunder hammer like relic that strikes at initiative on an assault move. Perhaps Helena could return as well. She wouldn't be a super combat beast but maybe another buffer type the Living Saint.

The Canoness should probably remain close to what it is now, but maybe with an uptick in deadliness in some department or at least a downgrade in point’s cost. Again I would see some sort of army buff here.

St Celestine needs a buff in survivability. Her ability to come back is nerfed into lameness now. One failed save from even an autocannon wipes her out.

The Sororitas Command Squad needs more options to fill whatever role the group is attached is doing. I would change them to be 4 to 9 strong though back to way the old Celestian bodyguard worked. I might even change the name back to that and have the Dialogous and Hospitaller be serving attached duty with different armor too. I never bought that they would have the same save.

Elites

I admit I have some trouble with this area but I have these ideas.

"A Battle Choir" if you will that provides buffs to a unit or units within a certain radius. It would be limited in scope, but effective. Notice a trend here? I believe that while Faith need not be miraculous it should have an effect on how the Sisters fight. Multipel stacking buffs that depend on other units to work without being psychic powers is the way to go

Perhaps bring a pack of the arco-flagellants as beasts as others have said. Back in 5th edition before we got our WD codex this is how I re-envisioned them. Give them back their power weapon limbs but no grenades and make them brutal assault units. Maybe give them a 5+ invuln save along with Feel no Pain. The trick is to strike a balance between fluff and functionality.

Celestians need to come back as the premier ground-based assault unit of the codex. Perhaps give them some actual melee weapon or maybe a bolter with sarissa that makes them Strength 4 in close combat and a reduced range (18”, assault 2). Give the occasional upgrade to a power weapon upgrade for it for every 3 models. I suppose they could swap out for a flamer or 3 as well.

Repentia need a little more protection. I’d increase their invuln save to 4+ all the time to reflect their state of grace that everyone in the Sisterhood thinks they have. Basically they are protected until they have fulfilled their role whatever the Emperor determines that to be. I’d give them Feel no pain as well all the time. Their act of faith need not exists given what they have already.

Troops

Frateris Militia is always an easy stand by for a 2nd troop choice. They would be akin to chaos cultists with little armor and little real bite. The trick is to give them a leader like a Missionary ( I can't call them priests) and let them wear down a unit in assault with perhaps a couple of upgrade character models for the real psychos with an extra attack or maybe a real weapon.

Fast

I think in fast attack I would add squadrons of Immolators being used as tanks and not transports otherwise I am happy with what we have. Obviously we need a flyer. I am not happy with the taking stuff from Forgeworld though and using I want something a little more original. My idea I called

Angelis Principalis. It’s a dropship-gunship. The unique thing is that it carries either 20 battle sisters, 10 seraphim, or a rhino with Sisters in it. Sisters still need a way when acquitting wars of faith to ferry units to and from space other than a drop pod. I think the Angelis Principalis can fit the bill. It would carry a hurricane bolter on each wings and some sort twin-linked gun on its nose. (multi-melta or heavy bolter). I borrowed the idea liberally from the Aliens dropship. The difference being that instead of the Rhino it could have a rack that attached its Seraphim or Sisters to it and released them. It would be how Seraphim arrive via deep strike since they don't use T-hawks.

Seraphim and Dominions are pretty awesome as they are.

Heavy

Purgator Heavy Tank. An armored up Rhino chassis in keeping with the Rhino only vehicles to date for Sisters with some heavy bolter sponsons, but the turret would have a multi-melta beamer. It’s a slightly longer range multi-shot melta weapon. It would have to be suitably expensive and draw a ton of fire for sure. It could be replaced by some sort of flamer(s) akin to the hellhound’s weapon. After all, that tech was based on something discovered by the Ecclesiarchy and passed to the Priesthood of Mars.

Exorcist tank would probably use another fire mode. Its weapon practically begs for an AA option and/or a wide blast depending on how the notes are played. I’d lose the rarity in the fluff of the tank as well simply for expediency in fielding them. The problem would be that they are so effective. As it is, I take them exclusively as my heavy support choice now. I just hate to layer so many roles on one vehicle as to make the only choice in heavy support.

Ideally another type of tank would be good perhaps as a variant Exorcist tank and call it the Intercessor. We could give it one or both of the abilities mentioned above.

Retributors I would change to all have heavy bolters that can be upgraded. That makes them depart from being devastators light and gives them more punch.

Lords of War
I’ve avoided Lords of War really as big tanks really aren’t the Sisters thing in my opinion. Perhaps Celestine with the proper buffs could be moved to a Lord of War choice along with a suitable points cost increase.

Formations
This needs to be thing. For Sisters fighting as groups is important. They are after the Sisterhood.

Acts of Faith
I suggest going with some generic ones that are accessible by all and a specific one per unit maybe. I haven’t given it too much thought, but faith needs to scale based on the size of the army somehow and the quality of its leaders. Faith should be miraculous but not all the time. It needs to be better than what it currently is though. A wimpy special rule that is hardly amazing getting sued once in awhile or that doesn’t really apply to a unit isn’t good enough.

There are host of other ideas, but I’m getting tired of typing right now so maybe later.

Idea for a new "tank" for Sisters. Fast rhino hull with pred sponsons. HB, HF, or MM. 13/11/11. maybe an upgrade (cherub targeters of something) that allows split fire (or what ever it would be on a vehicle).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andrewm9 wrote:
Lords of War
I’ve avoided Lords of War really as big tanks really aren’t the Sisters thing in my opinion. Perhaps Celestine with the proper buffs could be moved to a Lord of War choice along with a suitable points cost increase.

Give her back what she had in the WD (auto wound on +4, can always try and get back up) and that would warrent LoW slot I feel.

I am of the opinion that Arbites don't really fit into a standard 40k game. Maybe something small-scale, 500 points or less, because most planets don't have standing armies of Judge Dredds. They get, like, 5.

 Psienesis wrote:
I am of the opinion that Arbites don't really fit into a standard 40k game. Maybe something small-scale, 500 points or less, because most planets don't have standing armies of Judge Dredds. They get, like, 5.

Doesnt stop it from being awesome, but i largely agree. Maybe using them as an Elites choice, but not a whole army.

 Psienesis wrote:
because most planets don't have standing armies of Judge Dredds. They get, like, 5.

I don't that's true as matter of fluff and it's certainly wrong as a matter of how they are represented in past codices. Plus your metaphor is a bit funny because in fact Mega-City 1 does have a huge army of Judges.

However, that's because mega cities' military forces are almost entirely composed of Judges, whereas Arbites are not the sole military force of the Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:
However, that's because mega cities' military forces are almost entirely composed of Judges, whereas Arbites are not the sole military force of the Imperium.

True, like MC1, Imperial worlds also have a self-defense militia. Unlike MC1, imperial worlds also likely have SoB. So SoB, PDF, and Arbites -- this is the trifecta of front line Imperial defensive warfare.

A Hive World might have hundreds to thousands of Arbites. A Frontier World might have 1. A Feral World will have exactly zero.

 Psienesis wrote:
A Frontier World might have 1. A Feral World will have exactly zero.

So what? These worlds are also unlikely to have any SoB or PDF.

Plus any world that has a governor has an Arbites force watching over him.

I would not really be for an Adeptus Arbites codex, they're formed to uphold the law and order with regards to the population. If anything is made as a military 'first response' unit it would be the PDF of any given planet. I just don't see a force that handles poorly armed mobs and mutants being up to scratch and prepared to tackle the plethora of external threats.

Excellent for small games absolutely, a nice 'first contact' vibe or a planet's 'Incident #101'. But I don't see stretching further than that.

 Grimmor wrote:
On the Cherubim, I was telling a buddy about them and he recommended a name change to Nephilim, their fluff would be that they are the children of traitors who are trying to redeem their own souls, so they get a Shield and a Power weapon and are sent to go stab the enemies of the Imperium, like Forlorn Hope.

Personally i think this sounds awesome.

That's not a bad idea, the deeds of the daughter striving to scrub out the sins of the father. But doesn't that fill a similar death-seeking role to Repentia then?