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Would 12/11/10 be better for it though? Hm.

 Melissia wrote:
Would 12/11/10 be better for it though? Hm.

For no points increase? Ya.. The 12/12/10 should get a small points increase.

Apologies.

Just FYI:

 Manchu wrote:
The "women are weaker" topic is a derailment and effectively trolling. All other posts to that effect will be deleted and other moderator action taken as necessary. If you want to talk about the relative qualities of male and female human anatomy, do so in the OT at your own peril. Thanks.

 Melissia wrote:

Actually this rant has me thinking. Here's a general draft in my mind of a Sisters codex without making too many changes, including notes on the units and their purposes.

HQ:
Canoness (grand leader; your IG General, or your SM Chapter Master, if you will, as opposed to a lesser officer. Expensive, but powerful army-wide rules.)
Palatine (Cheaper, but still capable leader, rules effect nearby squads rather than the entire board.)
Characters (such as Celestine)
1-3 Priests (attaches to Ecclesiarchal squads for bonuses, not a mandatory HQ unit)
1-3 Techpriests (or techsisters) (Similar purpose to in other IoM armies)

Elite:
Celestians (Elite adaptable squad, good at both CC and ranged, can take power weapons in addition to special weapons; good at both, but specializing in neither)
Repentia (Difficult to control, but hard hitting CC unit, uses FNP and a 5++ save defensively, and eviscerators offensively, becomes more powerful if it takes casualties BEFORE it gets in to close combat)
Cherubim (Heavy assault squad; 3++ storm shields and power weapons)
Arco-Flagellants (Elite Ecclesiarchal unit, expensive but high toughness, multiple wounds, hard-hitting. Each turn, roll to determine if the player can control it or not, on a 4+ the player determines, otherwise it charges the nearest enemy unit. Priest allows a +2 to the roll)

Troops:
Battle Sisters (Common, durable Sister, primary weapon is bolter shock)
Frateris Militia (Crazed ecclesiarchal unit, with lots of attacks and lots of bodies. Priest gives to-hit rerolls.)

Fast Attack:
Seraphim (Jump pack harasser unit with hit and run, special twin pistol weapons that can be fired in melee)
Dominions (Special weapons squad, can infiltrate if not mounted)
Immolator Assault Squadron (immolators that sacrifice transport space for 12/12/10 armor)
Aquila Interceptor (primarily anti-flyer, can also strafe with bolter weapons)
Redemptionists (Flamer-heavy cultists in mandatory cheap transports. When in melee range, must always fire their flamers and charge. Priests give furious charge or some other bonus to their charge.)

Heavy Support:
Retributors (Heavy weapons infantry squad, cannot mix weapons but gains an act of faith depending on the weapons chosen)
Exorcist (Multi-missile launcher rhino variant; can buy an upgrade to let it shoot down fliers.)
Tactical Repressor (Repressor turned in to a tank; TLMM main turret, front-mounted heavy flamer)
Penitent Engine (Turned in to an MC, perhaps? As long as there's a priest on the field still alive, the unit can be controlled on a 4+, otherwise it charges the nearest enemy unit; if multiple units are in range, it prefers vehicles and monstrous creatures)

Transports:
Aquilla Lander (giving a deep strike option)
Rhino
Immolator
Repressor
Redemptor (Armored bus, AV10 all around, used by Ecclesiarchal units of 15 models or smaller)

You know what, I like this. I only have three remarks.

Cherubim are a great idea, the Sisters have needed a knightly equivalent of the Crusader for a long time now, though I imagine their role would be tarpitting strong units rather than eliminating them.

'Techsisters' is an odd notion given that technology is entirely under the purview of the Machine God, the divide is clear to a point where blows have been struck at several points between the Machine Cult and the Imperium. Sure, some factions have the theory that the Emperor and the Omnissiah are one and the same, but enough to justify their existence in the puritan Ecclessiarchy?

It might be prudent to restrict the number of Frateris Militia to the number of SoB squads on the field, though I imagine the Jacobah Uris (spelling?) character or somesuch would lift that restriction. It also makes sense for them to be utterly useless without a priest attached (hence not even getting zealous without him) and receiving further buffs from the mere presence of SoB.

 Melissia wrote:
1-3 Techpriests (or techsisters) (Similar purpose to in other IoM armies)

Heresy *BLAM* No, seriously, heresy: worshipping the Machine God rather than the God-Emperor? The Ecclesiarchy might let those Martian gits do it, but only begrudgingly: they are now about to let it into their own houses!

 Melissia wrote:
Cherubim (Heavy assault squad; 3++ storm shields and power weapons)

The 3+/3++ sounds utterly gross, and the concept does not really fit the Sisters well anyway.

 Melissia wrote:
Arco-Flagellants (Elite Ecclesiarchal unit, expensive but high toughness, multiple wounds, hard-hitting. Each turn, roll to determine if the player can control it or not, on a 4+ the player determines, otherwise it charges the nearest enemy unit. Priest allows a +2 to the roll)

Oh, no, please no rolling to find out what my units do! Ask any Tyranid player: this sucks. I hope Games Workshop removes all aspects of this from the game as they are just not fun.

 Melissia wrote:
Dominions (Special weapons squad, can infiltrate if not mounted)

I think Infiltrate is pushing it. It does not really fit the Sisters' fluff either. One does not simply sneak into a heretic's den: you burn it while singing hymns to the glory of the God-Emperor of Man!

 Melissia wrote:
Immolator Assault Squadron (immolators that sacrifice transport space for 12/12/10 armor)

I do not mind the basic concept of this, but I think a different name. Keep Immolator as the transport and have another name for the front-line Tank. Perhaps make it a Fast Tank or a Torrent weapon: something so it has a slightly different role to the Immolator too?

 Melissia wrote:
Redemptionists (Flamer-heavy cultists in mandatory cheap transports. When in melee range, must always fire their flamers and charge. Priests give furious charge or some other bonus to their charge.)

Honestly, that sounds like a bad gimmick. Dominions would do the same job (lots of Flamers) better.

 Melissia wrote:
Tactical Repressor (Repressor turned in to a tank; TLMM main turret, front-mounted heavy flamer)

Similar to the Immolator concept, a different name. I think this one would need a niche too: you can already run TLMM Immolators, so why would you bother with this?

 Melissia wrote:
Penitent Engine (Turned in to an MC, perhaps? As long as there's a priest on the field still alive, the unit can be controlled on a 4+, otherwise it charges the nearest enemy unit; if multiple units are in range, it prefers vehicles and monstrous creatures)

I keep going round in circles on this one too: I cannot decide if they should be MCs or Walkers. The Grey Knights strapped to big metal frames are MCs, but the fluff makes them sound more like a Walker that incidentally has a guy strapped to it whose presence is irrelevant to its combat potential. Again, uncontrollable units should not be a thing. Third edition, sure, but not in the modern game.

 Melissia wrote:
Redemptor (Armored bus, AV10 all around, used by Ecclesiarchal units of 15 models or smaller)

Honestly, that sounds terrible. A useless vehicle exclusive to the kinds of units you would footslog anyway.

 Melissia wrote:
Numerous ideas of heavily armored Sisters of Battle have been proposed. Who here thinks an elite, heavily armored unit of Sisters would fit?

Not me. As I mentioned earlier, I don't like the idea of the Russian nesting doll of 1337ness SM have going on, or at the very least I really don't like the idea of applying it to SoB. Plus, like I keep saying, I envision Sisters as emphasizing their humanity (their relative normalness, physiologically speaking) to inspire the faithful masses. Femanatrix armour does not fit that vision.

Traditionally (if not realistically), nuns are women who shut themselves away from the world to engage in the transcendent spiritual pursuits. They are viewed as vulnerable and needing to be contained and protected within their convent. SoB invert this trope by being (like a lot of actual nuns) out there in the world, taking it on. But they are just normal human beings who have trained harder and prayed longer, so to speak. I don't think their appearance should ever give onlookers an excuse to say, "well sure she can do it because she's got power armour" like it's the armour that matters. The real steel is underneath.

Cherubim already exist... those are the vat-grown flying babies the Ecclesiarchy keeps around. They occasionally go feral.

Definitely not a Heavy Assault squad. Creepy, sure, but naked and unarmed.

 Manchu wrote:
The real steel is underneath.

Well said.

 Melissia wrote:


HQ:
Canoness (grand leader; your IG General, or your SM Chapter Master, if you will, as opposed to a lesser officer. Expensive, but powerful army-wide rules.)
Palatine (Cheaper, but still capable leader, rules effect nearby squads rather than the entire board.)
Characters (such as Celestine)
1-3 Priests (attaches to Ecclesiarchal squads for bonuses, not a mandatory HQ unit)
1-3 Techpriests (or techsisters) (Similar purpose to in other IoM armies)

Elite:
Celestians (Elite adaptable squad, good at both CC and ranged, can take power weapons in addition to special weapons; good at both, but specializing in neither)
Repentia (Difficult to control, but hard hitting CC unit, uses FNP and a 5++ save defensively, and eviscerators offensively, becomes more powerful if it takes casualties BEFORE it gets in to close combat)
Cherubim (Heavy assault squad; 3++ storm shields and power weapons)
Arco-Flagellants (Elite Ecclesiarchal unit, expensive but high toughness, multiple wounds, hard-hitting. Each turn, roll to determine if the player can control it or not, on a 4+ the player determines, otherwise it charges the nearest enemy unit. Priest allows a +2 to the roll)

Troops:
Battle Sisters (Common, durable Sister, primary weapon is bolter shock)
Frateris Militia (Crazed ecclesiarchal unit, with lots of attacks and lots of bodies. Priest gives to-hit rerolls.)

Fast Attack:
Seraphim (Jump pack harasser unit with hit and run, special twin pistol weapons that can be fired in melee)
Dominions (Special weapons squad, can infiltrate if not mounted)
Immolator Assault Squadron (immolators that sacrifice transport space for 12/12/10 armor)
Aquila Interceptor (primarily anti-flyer, can also strafe with bolter weapons)
Redemptionists (Flamer-heavy cultists in mandatory cheap transports. When in melee range, must always fire their flamers and charge. Priests give furious charge or some other bonus to their charge.)

Heavy Support:
Retributors (Heavy weapons infantry squad, cannot mix weapons but gains an act of faith depending on the weapons chosen)
Exorcist (Multi-missile launcher rhino variant; can buy an upgrade to let it shoot down fliers.)
Tactical Repressor (Repressor turned in to a tank; TLMM main turret, front-mounted heavy flamer)
Penitent Engine (Turned in to an MC, perhaps? As long as there's a priest on the field still alive, the unit can be controlled on a 4+, otherwise it charges the nearest enemy unit; if multiple units are in range, it prefers vehicles and monstrous creatures)

Transports:
Aquilla Lander (giving a deep strike option)
Rhino
Immolator
Repressor
Redemptor (Armored bus, AV10 all around, used by Ecclesiarchal units of 15 models or smaller)

Very much along the same lines I would do - I would keep Celestians at I3 just to keep with base human stats across the board, but ws4 makes sense for a melee focused unit. I'd try to keep Arco's in line with other factions. Otherwise it's very close.

I'd probably replace redemptionists with a Sisters cavalry unit... because honestly, if cavalry doesnt make sense for a bunch of holy warriors with a medieval gothic aesthetic; it just doesn't fit into the game at all. Sisters are the place to try something along those lines, if anywhere is. The greater durability of Sisters might make them work where rough riders are a fit of giggling, followed by a sigh.

I'd like PE to remain walkers, and I would like GW to do something to fix walkers. If you have to make walkers MC to make them work, the problem is with the rules for walkers.

-D

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Numerous ideas of heavily armored Sisters of Battle have been proposed. Who here thinks an elite, heavily armored unit of Sisters would fit?

Not me. As I mentioned earlier, I don't like the idea of the Russian nesting doll of 1337ness SM have going on, or at the very least I really don't like the idea of applying it to SoB. Plus, like I keep saying, I envision Sisters as emphasizing their humanity (their relative normalness, physiologically speaking) to inspire the faithful masses. Femanatrix armour does not fit that vision.

Traditionally (if not realistically), nuns are women who shut themselves away from the world to engage in the transcendent spiritual pursuits. They are viewed as vulnerable and needing to be contained and protected within their convent. SoB invert this trope by being (like a lot of actual nuns) out there in the world, taking it on. But they are just normal human beings who have trained harder and prayed longer, so to speak. I don't think their appearance should ever give onlookers an excuse to say, "well sure she can do it because she's got power armour" like it's the armour that matters. The real steel is underneath.

However, the power armor does matter. And I do think Sisters deserve a sword+board type of unit. Maybe not 3+/3++, but at least 4++. It fits very well with my concept of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric of Grans wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
1-3 Techpriests (or techsisters) (Similar purpose to in other IoM armies)

Heresy *BLAM* No, seriously, heresy: worshipping the Machine God rather than the God-Emperor? The Ecclesiarchy might let those Martian gits do it, but only begrudgingly: they are now about to let it into their own houses!

Then no techsisters. Just techpriests. All Imperial armies would have them to some extent.

 Elric of Grans wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Cherubim (Heavy assault squad; 3++ storm shields and power weapons)

The 3+/3++ sounds utterly gross, and the concept does not really fit the Sisters well anyway.

On the contrary, I think it fits them rather well. Defenders of the faith, shielding their fellow sisters from fire and charging the enemy to buy time to evacuate civilians or prepare for the final blow to be delivered to the enemy force-- that kind of selfless sacrifice is very much in line with the Sisters of Battle. Though you may be right about 3+/3++. Perhaps normal storm shields would suffice-- 3+/4++?

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Oh, no, please no rolling to find out what my units do! Ask any Tyranid player: this sucks.

I used pentitent engines during fourth edition. I get what you're saying, but it definitely fits arco-flagellants and penitent engines. How would you suggest we represent the mindless, berserker rage of these two units?

 Elric of Grans wrote:
I think Infiltrate is pushing it. It does not really fit the Sisters' fluff either.

Scouting and Flanking, then?

 Elric of Grans wrote:
I do not mind the basic concept of this, but I think a different name. Keep Immolator as the transport and have another name for the front-line Tank. Perhaps make it a Fast Tank or a Torrent weapon: something so it has a slightly different role to the Immolator too?

Well the Immolator is just a razorback which is restricted to TLHB / TLMM / TLHF. During fifth edition, I had an idea for a super-heavy bolt weapon that's heavier htan a heavy bolter, closer to an autocannon, but few people liked it. What kind of Torrent weapon would you prefer?

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Honestly, that sounds like a bad gimmick. Dominions would do the same job (lots of Flamers) better.

Fair enough. what would you have for an Ecclesiarchy fast attack unit?

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Similar to the Immolator concept, a different name. I think this one would need a niche too: you can already run TLMM Immolators, so why would you bother with this?

Fair point. I want another tank for Sisters but I don't want just another Predator variant, and I know for a fact that any time I suggest a Leman Russ variant people start throwing poo everywhere. How would you do a Sororitas medium tank?

 Elric of Grans wrote:
I keep going round in circles on this one too: I cannot decide if they should be MCs or Walkers. The Grey Knights strapped to big metal frames are MCs, but the fluff makes them sound more like a Walker that incidentally has a guy strapped to it whose presence is irrelevant to its combat potential.

Yeah, that's a fair point. How can we make the walker more mobile though? Penitent Engines are fragile but also very fast, intended to rush in to combat as soon as possible and deal a ton of damage before being destroyed.

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Honestly, that sounds terrible. A useless vehicle exclusive to the kinds of units you would footslog anyway.

I just can't see them getting Rhinos.

Chimeras, maybe? I don't know.

On the Cherubim, I was telling a buddy about them and he recommended a name change to Nephilim, their fluff would be that they are the children of traitors who are trying to redeem their own souls, so they get a Shield and a Power weapon and are sent to go stab the enemies of the Imperium, like Forlorn Hope.

Personally i think this sounds awesome.

This is why I gave my Storm Shield sisters concept the standard ranged weapons - they're not an assault unit, they're a dig-in line-holding or urban room-clearing unit.

My Sororitas medium tank would look something like a Predator without a turret - side sponsons and reinforced top/front/side armour. I'd also give them a light tank with a narrow chassis and a limited-traverse turret on the prow designed for leading the charge in Zone Mortalis, though.

You know, there comes a point where a fiction turns into something a matter of social tokens. The demograph wanting sisters of battle may be significant 'enough' for a time, but even that aside, consider the other people in the hobby, there are those who don't like the idea of GI Jane in their universe - that the universe being portrayed with 'them' on tabletop is less to their idea of 40k reality. Space Marines are a great example of this too, but then again, they're more apt to be successful in real world patriarchal societies (which happens to be a biological norm).

The emphasis on women in the military isn't even socially agreed upon today ( using as a sales barometer).
In a futuristic sense, modern writers try to assert or even infer, that there is some sort of obvious evolution in regards to bias in the future. Really, there is a general mood I see in most sci-fi/fantasy settings abroad that try to make this homogeneous expectation among genres, but is not (shouldn't be) Warhammer; it just wouldn't be Warhammer. I don't mind sisters so much in the setting, but I hope the generality of 'man-sauce' stays in the IoM because, that's a detail that makes the setting feel... unfair or... pragmatic.... real

Having male-centric armies is less of a political statement - generally speaking (both player and company). Making a whole army list is probably not the best option to insert SoB. I could see them attached to Astra Militarum - like how SM should too.

Rather then using storm shields, you could give the CC elite sisters the AoF to make their armor save an invuln for a round. Or hand out a 4++ rosarius to everyone.

And it wouldn’t be out of place for at least one unit to get artificer armor. If you combine the two a 2+/4++ unit is a pretty tough nut to crack.

 Melissia wrote:

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Oh, no, please no rolling to find out what my units do! Ask any Tyranid player: this sucks.

I used pentitent engines during fourth edition. I get what you're saying, but it definitely fits arco-flagellants and penitent engines. How would you suggest we represent the mindless, berserker rage of these two units?

I really do not think mindless beserker rage units that play themselves are a good idea in the modern game. If Games Workshop wants to sell models and make money, they need something that appeals to their market. Their market wants to play a tactical wargame, which means making decisions for your units. I definitely want to see Arco-Flagellants and Penitent Engines stay, with better rules, but in a way that people will actually want to field them. Most Sisters players in the past did not field them because of their crappy rules (in an edition where crappy rules were a 'thing') and giving them more crappy rules will not change things. Making them 'berserkers' and 'functional' will both come down to two simple aspects: make them fast! Fast moving and fast attacking. Like Genestealers. Of cause, in this edition Genestealers largely suck, but that is a factor of the core rules rather than the unit concept.

 Melissia wrote:

 Elric of Grans wrote:
I think Infiltrate is pushing it. It does not really fit the Sisters' fluff either.

Scouting and Flanking, then?

Yeah, I think these are fine. It would make perfect sense for Sisters to have Scouts, and a competent Canoness should be able to come up with tactics like 'hit them in the side'.

 Melissia wrote:

 Elric of Grans wrote:
I do not mind the basic concept of this, but I think a different name. Keep Immolator as the transport and have another name for the front-line Tank. Perhaps make it a Fast Tank or a Torrent weapon: something so it has a slightly different role to the Immolator too?

Well the Immolator is just a razorback which is restricted to TLHB / TLMM / TLHF. During fifth edition, I had an idea for a super-heavy bolt weapon that's heavier htan a heavy bolter, closer to an autocannon, but few people liked it. What kind of Torrent weapon would you prefer?

The Immolator is restricted, yes, but a new vehicle need not be! If it is going to be Fast Attack, it also needs to be, well, fast. An Immolator is slower than a Battle Sisters Squad in a Rhino (as the Sisters have longer range on their Bolters than an Immolator's Heavy Flamer, so can shoot a turn sooner). I think most people would agree that a Heavy Flamer on a Skimmer is probably not going to happen. To my mind, the only remaining rules to get a Fast Attack vehicle would be either a Fast Tank or a flamer with the Torrent rule (adding the range it needs). Trouble is, no matter what you do you are verging a little too close to the Hellhound territory. I still think you are on the right track (a Fast Attack option built up on top of the Immolator concept), but I do not know what the right answer is.

 Melissia wrote:

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Honestly, that sounds like a bad gimmick. Dominions would do the same job (lots of Flamers) better.

Fair enough. what would you have for an Ecclesiarchy fast attack unit?

Honestly, I think Arco-Flagellants should be Fast Attack rather than Elite. Make them a fast moving assault unit (eg Raveners) and you both make them more useful AND have an Ecclesiarchy Fast Attack. They need more rules than just fast moving, but that is a good start to making them a viable unit. In contrast, I think an Ecclesiarchy Elite unit should be something in the priestly line of things, or maybe reserve all Elites for Sisters (since the Sisters *are* the elite Ecclesiarchy fighters).

 Melissia wrote:

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Similar to the Immolator concept, a different name. I think this one would need a niche too: you can already run TLMM Immolators, so why would you bother with this?

Fair point. I want another tank for Sisters but I don't want just another Predator variant, and I know for a fact that any time I suggest a Leman Russ variant people start throwing poo everywhere. How would you do a Sororitas medium tank?

We already have the Exorcist as a Sororitas Tank: no one could possibly argue with it being the basis for other Sororitas tanks. You may not like the Rhino chassis, but that is what Games Workshop gave us. Unless they replace all our vehicles with a unique Sisters chassis, all our vehicles are going to be Razorback/Predador/etc variants. As for what kinds of weapons, Sisters *need* a Skyfire option for their first new tank and I believe either a Large Blast (eg Whirlwind) or multi-Blast (eg Hydra) would be the most suitable second.

 Melissia wrote:

 Elric of Grans wrote:
I keep going round in circles on this one too: I cannot decide if they should be MCs or Walkers. The Grey Knights strapped to big metal frames are MCs, but the fluff makes them sound more like a Walker that incidentally has a guy strapped to it whose presence is irrelevant to its combat potential.

Yeah, that's a fair point. How can we make the walker more mobile though? Penitent Engines are fragile but also very fast, intended to rush in to combat as soon as possible and deal a ton of damage before being destroyed.

I think this is where additional rules would be necessary. The ability to run 2D6'', for example, would be a simple solution. They are not long-range weapon platforms like Dreadnoughts, and the Ecclesiarchy is not going to waste money on Drop Pods for heretics (like dropping a Furioso Dread), so they need to be designed to run across the table as fast as possible. Being designed to rush into combat, no breaks style, I think Hammer of Wrath makes perfect sense too!

 Melissia wrote:

 Elric of Grans wrote:
Honestly, that sounds terrible. A useless vehicle exclusive to the kinds of units you would footslog anyway.

I just can't see them getting Rhinos. Chimeras, maybe? I don't know.

Why would any riled-up mob of crazy peasants get an APC? I do not think any vehicle makes the slightest bit of sense here. Equivalent units such as Chaos Cultists and Conscripts are the same. These are cannon fodder, not precious elite soldiers.

 kveldulf wrote:
there are those who don't like the idea of GI Jane in their universe - that the universe being portrayed with 'them' on tabletop is less to their idea of 40k reality

As an exercise, please try making this statement about any other faction and consider whether it seems dumb then.

 kveldulf wrote:
consider the other people in the hobby

Same as above, regarding fans of other factions.

 Melissia wrote:
However, the power armor does matter.

You totally, 100% missed my point.

I'll make some suggestions, but as a non-SoB player who's curious on the subject I want to ask, what are the current weak points with the SoB?

I find the whole SOB only fixed on one aspect of the sisters, i would to see like different factions.

The hospitalers as a squad that can be attached to imperial guard, maybe special squad for sisters that guard holy objects, i would like to see more special characters, or even more ecclesiarchy character like a cardinal that gives bonuses by praying or just being there. Imperial ecclesiarchy knights that look different than normal knights.
Redesign of some of the tanks or even new tanks?

 Manchu wrote:

 kveldulf wrote:
there are those who don't like the idea of GI Jane in their universe - that the universe being portrayed with 'them' on tabletop is less to their idea of 40k reality

As an exercise, please try making this statement about any other faction and consider whether it seems dumb then.

 kveldulf wrote:
consider the other people in the hobby

Same as above, regarding fans of other factions.

 Melissia wrote:
However, the power armor does matter.

You totally, 100% missed my point.

Actually, I wasn't talking about factions within the universe. I was talking about the general appeal - the gamers who are attracted to the game. Generally speaking its a male-centric GI Joe fest. I think it's always going to be like this with wargames, (or warfare in general) until a society becomes matriarchal (but that's counter to our biology, but I digress).

There may be races with their chickie-poo offshoot, but look at how they're built, and consider how realistic that really is. It's definitely one of those things that's meant to be exclusive, amusing and exceptional. It may get sales, but its not the meat and potatoes.

But yea, it's dumb to throw women on the front line when they can produce more soldiers during a time of war (and particularly so with the dire situation the IoM is constantly in). You're shooting your own foot off doing that. It may be necessary but only in extreme circumstances during flight from a conflict/situation. SoB are a cult, so its more believable.

Bringing other fictitious races in on this will have the same issues - it may be inverted compared to humans, but they still have to fulfill certain roles to perpetuate a society - making certain genders more apt for war - like male humans. Though, elves/space-elves are sort of androgynous, and so, it's just their custom to probably equivocate all manner of gender specific things erroneously/inappropriately Heck, they did bring about Slaanesh....

 saithor wrote:
I'll make some suggestions, but as a non-SoB player who's curious on the subject I want to ask, what are the current weak points with the SoB?

A severe lack of options. The army currently only has:
HQ - A HQ-Level Sister who lacks key wargear options, or Special Characters. Also a fluffy-but-useless Command Squad.
Elite - Battle Sisters who cost more points for no meaningful gains, or unarmoured melee Battle Sisters who die before they do anything.
Troops - Basic Battle Sisters (short-range dakka unit)
Fast Attack - Battle Sisters with Scout and more special weapon options, or Battle Sisters with Pistols and Jump Packs.
Heavy Support - Battle Sisters with heavy weapons, an anti-armour Tank and a broken Walker.

Our issues include non-functional assault units (eg Repentia, Penitent Engines), a lack of long-range options (only one Tank or Heavy Bolters, both in Heavy Support), a lack of anti-air, no access to Blast/Large Blast, no access to Flyers, only a single vehicle (not counting Dedicated Transports). Oh, and under the current edition, a lack of useful Formations (not that we have the units options for it to matter).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kveldulf wrote:
Actually, I wasn't talking about factions within the universe. I was talking about the general appeal - the gamers who are attracted to the game. Generally speaking its a male-centric GI Joe fest. I think it's always going to be like this with wargames, (or warfare in general) until a society becomes matriarchal (but that's counter to our biology, but I digress).

*cough* Matriarchal social groups used to be normal. *cough* Seriously, you are taking a sociological issue and passing it off as biological. There is no biological reason we could not have a matriarchal society.

As for the male-centricness of the hobby, I do not accept that as a reason either. How many computer games with mostly male demographics are skewed to female characters? If the minis look good and the rules are solid, female units will sell. I think it is long past time Imperial Guard sprues had both male and female torsos. Probably many Eldar units too (I do not really know their fluff well enough to be certain).

 kveldulf wrote:
I wasn't talking about factions within the universe.

Neither was I.

 kveldulf wrote:
it's dumb to throw women on the front line when they can produce more soldiers during a time of war

I can't even

 Elric of Grans wrote:



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 kveldulf wrote:
Actually, I wasn't talking about factions within the universe. I was talking about the general appeal - the gamers who are attracted to the game. Generally speaking its a male-centric GI Joe fest. I think it's always going to be like this with wargames, (or warfare in general) until a society becomes matriarchal (but that's counter to our biology, but I digress).

*cough* Matriarchal social groups used to be normal. *cough* Seriously, you are taking a sociological issue and passing it off as biological. There is no biological reason we could not have a matriarchal society.

As for the male-centricness of the hobby, I do not accept that as a reason either. How many computer games with mostly male demographics are skewed to female characters? If the minis look good and the rules are solid, female units will sell. I think it is long past time Imperial Guard sprues had both male and female torsos. Probably many Eldar units too (I do not really know their fluff well enough to be certain).

I can tell, we are probably going to disagree on more than this issue.

I usually just stick with fundamentals on things. For example: my eyes tell me that males are different biologically - they're generally bigger, stronger, even think differently (scientifically their brains are built different). There may be the outlier, and yes society has a part to play, but society does not dictate the full context of biology.

Societies at times may have been matriarchal but not all. I'm not disputing that. I do though, dispute that ALL societies were at one time matriarchal - that's not even scientific, but a truth statement.

Granted there is a progressive movement of people accepting the notion of more feminine characters, etc. This doesn't add to the reality or consistency of the game, but I argue, takes away from it at times (and not just gender stuff). Look, just because you believe something is kk in real life, doesn't mean it will add to the reality/immersion of the setting. Furthermore, people being sold on computer game X or, wargame B, doesn't mean those universes are very internally consistent or truly evocative - in context of wholesome entertainment.

You can't prove to me [legitimately] that you know that it would sell better than universe A over B because it caters purely to an extra group of people. Niches aren't decided with popularity alone.

This is the third time I have posted a warning ITT about not getting bogged down in the "women are weaker than men" theory. If you want to play that game, go play it in the OT -- preferably in a thread about how those ladies just passed Ranger school.


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 kveldulf wrote:
You can't prove to me [legitimately] that you know that it would sell better than universe A over B because it caters purely to an extra group of people.

What are you saying here? What is Universe A? Universe B? In the actual 40k setting, SoB exist. They are an army. In the real world, SoB exist. They are an army.

EDIT: You know what, forget it. You just posted that women need to pump out babies instead of fighting in 40k. Further conversation isn't going to be mutually beneficial.

Edited by Manchu

Let me just clarify that I am not stating my opinion when I give multiple in-thread warnings that continuing to post about the relative physical strength of men and women in this thread is derailing and troll bait and will result in posts being deleted and temporary suspensions.

As funny as it is seeing people attempt to CONSTANTLY drag this thread in to an argument that will inevitably get the thread closed, including arguing with a moderator, how about we don't.

 Elric of Grans wrote:

 saithor wrote:
I'll make some suggestions, but as a non-SoB player who's curious on the subject I want to ask, what are the current weak points with the SoB?

A severe lack of options. The army currently only has:
HQ - A HQ-Level Sister who lacks key wargear options, or Special Characters. Also a fluffy-but-useless Command Squad.
Elite - Battle Sisters who cost more points for no meaningful gains, or unarmoured melee Battle Sisters who die before they do anything.
Troops - Basic Battle Sisters (short-range dakka unit)
Fast Attack - Battle Sisters with Scout and more special weapon options, or Battle Sisters with Pistols and Jump Packs.
Heavy Support - Battle Sisters with heavy weapons, an anti-armour Tank and a broken Walker.

+1

This is pretty much the main problem with Sisters right now. Sisters have little variety-- a few of their units are pointless to take, and even with them, they have little variety.

 Melissia wrote:
This is pretty much the main problem with Sisters right now. Sisters have little variety-- a few of their units are pointless to take, and even with them, they have little variety.

I certainly understand that having units that are pointless to take is a problem. That should just not happen in any dex. But let's assume for the sake of argument that a new dex would not have any such units; in that case, I don't see a problem with variety. GK were given "variety" and IMO it seems like their theme just got watered down ... or rather their formerly concentrated theme got spread too thin. Now on the other hand, the Necrons got more variety as part of an overhaul that made the whole faction more complicated (to use a neutral term). I don't know that I'd want to see the SoB altered that much in-universe; I feel like their fluff is already pretty interesting. So barring that, it looks like they would get the GK treatment ... which to me is really weak, a lot like how the Sigmarines have melee Sigmarines, and ranged Sigmarines, and winged Sigmarines ... to me, that is boring. And Sisters already have that, a little bit. I'd rather not see them go further down that path.

Barring the "Cherubim" units, do you believe the codex of units I mentioned above is watered down?

I would never describe an exorcist as an anti-armor tank. it's anti-MCs, anti-elites, and anti super infantry.