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As much of a beast as is Rhonda Rousey, she will still lose every fight to a male UFC fighter in her weight class. Its not sexism, its just nature.

Anyway trying to get back on topic....


Numerous ideas of heavily armored Sisters of Battle have been proposed. Who here thinks an elite, heavily armored unit of Sisters would fit? Some have given terminator-like ideas, others suggest artificer armor, others suggest that they're durable in a way different than terminators.

I think artificer armored sisters with storm shields and swords would be pretty cool.

The whole idea of making Sisters weaker or downgrading their amour save is absolute nonsense.

 deviantduck wrote:
As much of a beast as is Rhonda Rousey, she will still lose every fight to a male UFC fighter in her weight class. Its not sexism, its just nature.

Err, Rhonda herself disagrees, as do other members of the same weight class ("She's strong. Strong enough to beat Floyd Mayweather in MMA." -- MMA fighter Manny Pacquiao). Ms. Rousey doesn't want to fight men in UFC because, and I quote, "I don't think it's a great idea to have a man hitting a woman on television". A decision which I respect, given what I've seen on the internet.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The granularity argument is getting tiresome

Because you have not and cannot refute it?

Thunder Nuns!
Nunermiators?
Terminuns.

 Manchu wrote:
The whole idea of making Sisters weaker or downgrading their amour save is absolute nonsense.

I concur.

Sisters are actually in a good spot as far as their statline goes. They're the middle ground between MEQ and GEQ, and this gives more variety to the metagame of 40k. The only units I'd change the statline of are Celestians and Seraphim, and then, only WS3-WS4 and I3-I4-- again, still leaving them as part of the middle ground between MEQ and GEQ, but still representing their vastly improved skill.

The "women are weaker" topic is a derailment and effectively trolling. All other posts to that effect will be deleted and other moderator action taken as necessary. If you want to talk about the relative qualities of male and female human anatomy, do so in the OT at your own peril. Thanks.

Instead of rending, give retributers relentless for their AoF

Nvm!

 deviantduck wrote:
Instead of rending, give retributers relentless for their AoF

Hmm. That could be interesting, but it really nerfs heavy bolter retributors. As it is, rending is the only reason to take heavy bolter retributors.

 Manchu wrote:
The whole idea of making Sisters weaker or downgrading their amour save is absolute nonsense.

The whole idea of Sisters existing as a playable faction is absolute nonsense.
same with walking fungus men with technology that works by fiat.
or giant 8-foot hyperhumans in tank-like armor carrying guns as big as a normal human.
or super-size tanks and robots as tall as a multi-story building.
on planets in which *everything* is carnivorous.
... and yet, that's the game we play.

The question was how *I* would update the Sisters of Battle that I own for 7e.

I think it's absolute illusion-breaking nonsense that they are S3 and Sv3+ and that they only operate as Orders Militant. I hate how everybody in the 40k Universe is Mary Sued into being awesome, because it flattens the game to the point that nobody gets to be awesome.

I would update Sisters to be S2 4+/5++ for 7E, and bulk their armies with truly massive hordes of "bottom of the barrel" Frateris Militia. You don't have to like that, but it's no more nonsense than any of the other wishlisting in this thread. And it's far less nonsense than the ad hominems that are blithely being accepted in this very thread.

And the argument for strength vs size? Anyone want to guess how strong a chimpanzee is? How about their weight compared to an ordinary woman? If a smallish Earth-bound animal can be that strong, why wouldn't gretchin / grots / goblins be like that?
____

@Manchu, I see you posted that you want the discussion closed. Fine. I'm outta here.

I still don't see why they should be S2.

And before someone answers me 'Because Hwang is sexist', I am asking you here, Hwang. Genuinely. Explain why the elite warrior women I face should be weaker than the ex-baker and ex-desk clerk nutjobs that make up my Cultist units.

Oh dear, I read Manchu's post above. I hope asking this is not OT.

 deviantduck wrote:
Thunder Nuns!
Nunermiators?
Terminuns.

Yes! Lets give the Sisters of Sigmar a new job!

 Ashiraya wrote:
Explain why the elite warrior women I face should be weaker than the ex-baker and ex-desk clerk nutjobs that make up my Cultist units.

Oh dear, I read Manchu's post above. I hope asking this is not OT.

As long as this doesn't turn into an off-topic discussion of how women are inherently weaker, spiraling into an even more off-topic discussion about purported sexism, answering this question is perfectly fine.

And here's a tip for all-comers, if your argument about 40k begins with something like "in reality, ..." then you are almost certainly spouting nonsense.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think it's absolute illusion-breaking nonsense that they are S3 and Sv3+ and that they only operate as Orders Militant.

For one, they DON'T only operate as Orders Militant. Not even Codex: Witch Hunters had them operate as exclusively Orders Militant.

For two, power armor provides a 3+ save. They wear power armor. Their power armor has fewer features, but it is still power armor and it still protects that same. It's very petty of you to argue that unless it's Astartes power armor it can't be 3+.

And finally, unless they have a special reason not to be, all humans in 40k are S3.

Melissia wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Instead of rending, give retributers relentless for their AoF

Hmm. That could be interesting, but it really nerfs heavy bolter retributors. As it is, rending is the only reason to take heavy bolter retributors.

Relentless would destroy Retributors as a unit.

It would be utterly useless on Heavy Flamer retributors, who have Assault weapons.

It would negate the purpose of Heavy Bolter retributors, who immediately become overcosted and ineffective.

It might mean more Multi-Melta rets on the field though.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Melissia wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Instead of rending, give retributers relentless for their AoF

Hmm. That could be interesting, but it really nerfs heavy bolter retributors. As it is, rending is the only reason to take heavy bolter retributors.

Relentless would destroy Retributors as a unit.

It would be utterly useless on Heavy Flamer retributors, who have Assault weapons.

It would negate the purpose of Heavy Bolter retributors, who immediately become overcosted and ineffective.

It might mean more Multi-Melta rets on the field though.

It would be interesting i you could pick which rule when you activated the AoF. It would mean people would probably field more Multi Melta Rets, cuz as it stands they are fairly uncommon.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Melissia wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Instead of rending, give retributers relentless for their AoF

Hmm. That could be interesting, but it really nerfs heavy bolter retributors. As it is, rending is the only reason to take heavy bolter retributors.

Relentless would destroy Retributors as a unit.

It would be utterly useless on Heavy Flamer retributors, who have Assault weapons.

It would negate the purpose of Heavy Bolter retributors, who immediately become overcosted and ineffective.

It might mean more Multi-Melta rets on the field though.

Well, ideally, I would break Rets into 3 different named flavors, and remove their customization options. More like a static build, and more like formations often make you do.

Emperor's Fury
4 heavy flamers, AoF: Shred

Emperor's Forgiveness
4 heavy bolters, AoF: Rending

Emperor's Wrath
4 multi-meltas: AoF: Relentless

If we're going to get to pick, I'd prefer all units have a "pool" of common acts of faith, and everyone else has one unique or semi-unique one.

 Melissia wrote:
If we're going to get to pick, I'd prefer all units have a "pool" of common acts of faith, and everyone else has one unique or semi-unique one.

This would also be sweet. These are a few Global Acts of Faith from a fan-dex:


Hand of the Emperor: Costs 1 Faith Point. During either player's Assault phase, you may perform a Test of Faith before to hit rolls are made. Models in the unit gain +1S and +1T for that assault phase, but cannot strike above I2.

Divine Guidance: Costs 1 Faith Point. During your shooting phase or either player's Assault phase, you may perform a Test of Faith after to hit rolls are made by your models, but before rolling to wound. For that phase, your weapons gain the Rending USR.

Light of the Emperor: Costs 2 Faith Points. At the beginning of either player's Assault phase, you may perform a Test of Faith. For that Assault Phase, that unit gains the Fearless USR. If the unit contains five models or fewer, they gain +1A. If this Act of Faith succeeds while the unit is fleeing, it immediately regroups with no morale checks required.

Spirit of the Martyr: Costs 1 Faith Point. During your movement phase, you may perform a Test of Faith before moving the unit. Until your next movement phase, models in the unit gain the Feel No Pain USR. If they already had Feel No Pain, it is improved by 1.

The fan-dex uses a Fiath Points system similar to the 5e codex, its just balanced better.

Actually, none of those are fan-made. Those are from the 3rd edition codex, which had five acts of faith which all units could use, and a global "faith point" pool based on how many characters and veteran superior upgrades you had, plus how many units you lost over the course of the game (Martyrdom).

Well, not quite - Witch Hunter 'Hand of the Emperor' was +2 Strength, but I1, Divine Guidance was done before rolling to hit, Light of the Emperor was just plain Fearless, and Spirit of the Martyr made your regular armour saves into an Invulnerable save.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, none of those are fan-made. Those are from the 3rd edition codex, which had five acts of faith which all units could use, and a global "faith point" pool based on how many characters and veteran superior upgrades you had, plus how many units you lost over the course of the game (Martyrdom).

Well then, i guess they just updated them, cant say that i dont like it. Im a big fan of Faith Point systems.

Having five Acts of Faith as available to all Sisters, then each unit having its own specific one for its own unit is a good system, showing the unity of the Sisters of Battle (whom, internally, are quite conformist compared to the Guard and Marines) while still allowing units to specialize.

 Melissia wrote:

Numerous ideas of heavily armored Sisters of Battle have been proposed. Who here thinks an elite, heavily armored unit of Sisters would fit? Some have given terminator-like ideas, others suggest artificer armor, others suggest that they're durable in a way different than terminators.

This is basically where I was going with the storm shield and specialized cc weapon unit I was considering - I think invulnerable saves are one of the things that makes the SoB unique, with a universal 6++, crusaders and the like. Relying on a 3++ seems more in line thematically than a hulking Space Marine style suit, perhaps with artificer armor to make them even tougher. Conversely, giving celestians the ability tot ake storm shields and CC unique weaponscould make them a more distinct and flexible unit.

-D

I'd only accept Celestians being given close combat weapons if they were also given WS4 and I4 again. GW's nerf of Celestians from WS4/I4 to WS3/I3 was stupid, ESPECIALLY since in the same breath they added a second attack and also gave them a close combat focused act of faith-- so what, do you want them to be close combat focused or not close combat focused? And why do they have more base attacks than Astartes? That doesn't even make sense.

Celestians were hardly overpowered before the nerf, but now, there's no reason to take them over Battle Sisters, and that's plain dumb.

I think Sisters would do well to have their elite slots be their melee-focused units. Repentia and Celestians are both melee fighters, they just need buffs to make them worth taking.

Actually this rant has me thinking. Here's a general draft in my mind of a Sisters codex without making too many changes, including notes on the units and their purposes.

HQ:
Canoness (grand leader; your IG General, or your SM Chapter Master, if you will, as opposed to a lesser officer. Expensive, but powerful army-wide rules.)
Palatine (Cheaper, but still capable leader, rules effect nearby squads rather than the entire board.)
Characters (such as Celestine)
1-3 Priests (attaches to Ecclesiarchal squads for bonuses, not a mandatory HQ unit)
1-3 Techpriests (or techsisters) (Similar purpose to in other IoM armies)

Elite:
Celestians (Elite adaptable squad, good at both CC and ranged, can take power weapons in addition to special weapons; good at both, but specializing in neither)
Repentia (Difficult to control, but hard hitting CC unit, uses FNP and a 5++ save defensively, and eviscerators offensively, becomes more powerful if it takes casualties BEFORE it gets in to close combat)
Cherubim (Heavy assault squad; 3++ storm shields and power weapons)
Arco-Flagellants (Elite Ecclesiarchal unit, expensive but high toughness, multiple wounds, hard-hitting. Each turn, roll to determine if the player can control it or not, on a 4+ the player determines, otherwise it charges the nearest enemy unit. Priest allows a +2 to the roll)

Troops:
Battle Sisters (Common, durable Sister, primary weapon is bolter shock)
Frateris Militia (Crazed ecclesiarchal unit, with lots of attacks and lots of bodies. Priest gives to-hit rerolls.)

Fast Attack:
Seraphim (Jump pack harasser unit with hit and run, special twin pistol weapons that can be fired in melee)
Dominions (Special weapons squad, can infiltrate if not mounted)
Immolator Assault Squadron (immolators that sacrifice transport space for 12/12/10 armor)
Aquila Interceptor (primarily anti-flyer, can also strafe with bolter weapons)
Redemptionists (Flamer-heavy cultists in mandatory cheap transports. When in melee range, must always fire their flamers and charge. Priests give furious charge or some other bonus to their charge.)

Heavy Support:
Retributors (Heavy weapons infantry squad, cannot mix weapons but gains an act of faith depending on the weapons chosen)
Exorcist (Multi-missile launcher rhino variant; can buy an upgrade to let it shoot down fliers.)
Tactical Repressor (Repressor turned in to a tank; TLMM main turret, front-mounted heavy flamer)
Penitent Engine (Turned in to an MC, perhaps? As long as there's a priest on the field still alive, the unit can be controlled on a 4+, otherwise it charges the nearest enemy unit; if multiple units are in range, it prefers vehicles and monstrous creatures)

Transports:
Aquilla Lander (giving a deep strike option)
Rhino
Immolator
Repressor
Redemptor (Armored bus, AV10 all around, used by Ecclesiarchal units of 15 models or smaller)

Id like to see a SH of some description for SoB. A Baneblade chassis with a cathedral on top with a huge missile launcher built in would be awesome

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Id like to see a SH of some description for SoB. A Baneblade chassis with a cathedral on top with a huge missile launcher built in would be awesome

Exalted for Win.

Also i love Immolator Assault Squadron, i would so use them.