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 Psienesis wrote:
There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.

That claim is based on ... ?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Obviously, they are going to be few. They are female orphans of Imperial officers with a military aptitude, strength of will, and above-average physical characteristics.

Don't underestimate just how many orphans the Imperium creates.

 Psienesis wrote:
They're not an "army" in the traditional sense of the word, they're "simply" the only standing military force the Ecclesiarchy is allowed to have.

This is a truism. The army of a church is by definition not an army in the traditional sense, if what one means by "traditional" is the army of a state.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I'd like to see their armor be similar to the Tartaros terminator armor from FW, and for there to be 2 or 3 different variants to choose from.

All of the point costs would have to be scaled back to 7th edition which means that everything would get cheaper.

They should have a standard HQ that increases their invulnerable save of the units they join by +1 or +2 with a relic.

I'd like to see something like the chaos boon table applied to miracles and have the possibility to become a living saint mid-game.

All sisters squads should be able to purchase some kind of "holy promethium" that gives their flame weapons the deflagerate special rule, and makes any weapon with the melta special rule trade out melta for armourbane.

As much as I dislike the chaos boon table, I think I might actually like it in this context. Not sure why. I rather like the other suggestions as well.

@doomshakalaka: Wounds in 40k are like hitpoints in a tabletop role-playing game. If your character has 47 HP and loses some of those hitpoints to an arrow attack, it doesn't mean he was actually hit by the arrow. it means that his plot armor is a few points thinner. The arrow bounced off the armor without literally hurting him, but it also removed hitpoints. You know how the storm troopers in Star Wars get a bad reputation for not being able to hit anything? It's not that they're incompitent; it's that they're shooting at characters with too many hitpoints and too light of armor for the GM to describe them as literally hitting the enemy.

Similarly, a multi-wound character in 40k isn't literally more resilient to incoming attacks (unless of course he is). That guard commander or commissar or whatever is just luckier or more tenacious than the single wound models. Any character that makes it to two-wound status just has thicker plot armor.

For new units for the sisters, I'd like to see a few things:
Sisters with Artificer Armour, Power Lances and Storm Shields with integrated flamers. That's your CC Celestian squad, with rules based around their shieldwalls and overlapping torrents of flame. A good candidate for small units mounted in Repressors. To match them, Celestians could do with Artificer Armour as well. Celestians would also recieve a form of special issue ammo, and have options for combi-weapons.
I like the idea of the PowerLoader motif, I think a fairly customisable unit of small walkers/monstrous creatures with options for heavy weapons (holy trinity and missile launchers) or CCW with a smaller melta/flamer/stormbolter integrated.
Sisters are one of the only factions where a Lord Of War superheavy is really sensible- a giant tracked cathedral with minimal armament but potent buffing effects and incredible armour.
I don't think a biker unit makes a lot of sense, but it would look stunning. It adds little to the army, and Seraphim should have that niche covered.

Power Armour has to remain 3+, in my mind. Any attempt to change that isn't really on- Techpriests get PA (or used to last time I looked at the codex) so why not the Sisters?

Power lances?

 4oursword wrote:
For new units for the sisters, I'd like to see a few things:
Sisters with Artificer Armour, Power Lances and Storm Shields with integrated flamers. That's your CC Celestian squad, with rules based around their shieldwalls and overlapping torrents of flame. A good candidate for small units mounted in Repressors. To match them, Celestians could do with Artificer Armour as well. Celestians would also recieve a form of special issue ammo, and have options for combi-weapons.
I like the idea of the PowerLoader motif, I think a fairly customisable unit of small walkers/monstrous creatures with options for heavy weapons (holy trinity and missile launchers) or CCW with a smaller melta/flamer/stormbolter integrated.
Sisters are one of the only factions where a Lord Of War superheavy is really sensible- a giant tracked cathedral with minimal armament but potent buffing effects and incredible armour.
I don't think a biker unit makes a lot of sense, but it would look stunning. It adds little to the army, and Seraphim should have that niche covered.

Power Armour has to remain 3+, in my mind. Any attempt to change that isn't really on- Techpriests get PA (or used to last time I looked at the codex) so why not the Sisters?

I would personally prefer to let militia handle assualts to allow for the celestians to adopt a more specialized ranged unit with a choice of special rules chosen at the start (tank hunter, precision shot, etc) there is a precedent for the use of shields by the adepta sororitas in the form of the Praesidium Protectiva from dark heresy edition 1 book of martyrs role-playing game. they would probably be more in the form of an option for the basic sisters squad to replace their bolter with a combat shield and the shield wall rule (+1 toughness when models are in base contact) with maybe the shield charge rule(hammer of wrath if shield wall applies) thrown in for good measure.

i would also probably throw in a hospitallier detachment of 1-3 hospitalliers to be attached to squads of your choice as an elite choice

Vandire651 wrote:

 4oursword wrote:
For new units for the sisters, I'd like to see a few things:
Sisters with Artificer Armour, Power Lances and Storm Shields with integrated flamers. That's your CC Celestian squad, with rules based around their shieldwalls and overlapping torrents of flame. A good candidate for small units mounted in Repressors. To match them, Celestians could do with Artificer Armour as well. Celestians would also recieve a form of special issue ammo, and have options for combi-weapons.
I like the idea of the PowerLoader motif, I think a fairly customisable unit of small walkers/monstrous creatures with options for heavy weapons (holy trinity and missile launchers) or CCW with a smaller melta/flamer/stormbolter integrated.
Sisters are one of the only factions where a Lord Of War superheavy is really sensible- a giant tracked cathedral with minimal armament but potent buffing effects and incredible armour.
I don't think a biker unit makes a lot of sense, but it would look stunning. It adds little to the army, and Seraphim should have that niche covered.

Power Armour has to remain 3+, in my mind. Any attempt to change that isn't really on- Techpriests get PA (or used to last time I looked at the codex) so why not the Sisters?

I would personally prefer to let militia handle assualts to allow for the celestians to adopt a more specialized ranged unit with a choice of special rules chosen at the start (tank hunter, precision shot, etc) there is a precedent for the use of shields by the adepta sororitas in the form of the Praesidium Protectiva from dark heresy edition 1 book of martyrs role-playing game. they would probably be more in the form of an option for the basic sisters squad to replace their bolter with a combat shield and the shield wall rule (+1 toughness when models are in base contact) with maybe the shield charge rule(hammer of wrath if shield wall applies) thrown in for good measure.

i would also probably throw in a hospitallier detachment of 1-3 hospitalliers to be attached to squads of your choice as an elite choice

I like the shield wall unit idea. It would be vulnerable to blasts and torrents and such, but it would make a nice "assault buffer" option. Leaving melee to millitia (assuming you mean the proposed pdf/cultist style unit) seems pretty unreliable to me as they seem to be more of a quantity than quality unit. Or do you mean the flagellants, death cultists, etc.?

Special shooting rules etc. feels like more of a dominion squad thing. I'd still prefer to see celestians get better defensive and/or assault gear or else give them some other means of distinguishing themselves.

Manchu: I actually really like power lances on strength 3 units. Provided they're priced reasonably, they make you half decent on the charge (better in some regards than howling banshees), and they still help you chop up 4+ armor and worse in subsequent rounds. Plus, they look really cool! I second the motion for a storm shield and power lance option, though I see no reason not to let that lance be swapped out for a different power weapon.

 Manchu wrote:
Power lances?

I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.

 Melissia wrote:
I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.

Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.

And I personally don't like the "Sisters of Speed" concept. I see them trudging along at the head of the faithful: a sober, relentless line of black steel and cleansing fire backed by a surging mob of fanatics.

I guess I would like to see a Sisters book that shows more of the civilian side of the 40k setting, sort of a Codex: People of the Imperium except of course that 40k is a wargame so the book would be about the martial dimension of civilian life. Think of it as a army list for an Imperial world's first line of defense. It would have Arbites, Fratris Militia, and PDF auxilia. And the theme of the book would be, when things get really fethed up it's up to the Sisters to lead this rabble of scum under the banners of faith. Because IG are never on time and SM rarely show up at all.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.

Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.

And I personally don't like the "Sisters of Speed" concept. I see them trudging along at the head of the faithful: a sober, relentless line of black steel and cleansing fire backed by a surging mob of fanatics.

I guess I would like to see a Sisters book that shows more of the civilian side of the 40k setting, sort of a Codex: People of the Imperium except of course that 40k is a wargame so the book would be about the martial dimension of civilian life. Think of it as a army list for an Imperial world's first line of defense. It would have Arbites, Fratris Militia, and PDF auxilia. And the theme of the book would be, when things get really fethed up it's up to the Sisters to lead this rabble of scum under the banners of faith. Because IG are never on time and SM rarely show up at all.

Space Marines never struck me as warrior monks, though I hear this time and again.

Most of them don't even worship the Emperor as a God!!

Maybe like, spiritually disciplined mercenaries - but they never struck me as the type to go to war for religious reasons.

I don't want to hijack a Sisters thread explaining the SM theme. Let me know if you start a separate thread.

I would actually kind of like the idea of shields and spears instead of lances for a melee option. Give them a rule to lock shields as well. Sure they're spartans, but the point is marines should have done it and they havent.

 Manchu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.

Warrior monks?

No. Holy knights defending the faith. If you'd prefer a different comparison, DnD Paladins in platemail, with subtle "miracles" rather htan divine magic.

 Manchu wrote:


I guess I would like to see a Sisters book that shows more of the civilian side of the 40k setting, sort of a Codex: People of the Imperium except of course that 40k is a wargame so the book would be about the martial dimension of civilian life. Think of it as a army list for an Imperial world's first line of defense. It would have Arbites, Fratris Militia, and PDF auxilia. And the theme of the book would be, when things get really fethed up it's up to the Sisters to lead this rabble of scum under the banners of faith. Because IG are never on time and SM rarely show up at all.

That's exactly what I'd like to see: a sort of Codex: War of Faith. Existing Sisters units backed up by Ecclesiarchy mobs lead by the preisthood and stark-raving mad flagellants, penitents, and torture machines. Battle-hardened Sisters that you can rely upon to do their job, big mobs of chaff to die in droves, and fiery orators whipping everyone into a frenzy. No super-heavy walkers, no gimmicky popes in termie armor, and no speeders or bikes or drop podding nonsense.

So you want the return of Frateris Militia, in a big way?

GREAT! Me, too.

I'd love to see huge mobs of Cultist-type rabble on the board. That would be awesome!

We're on page 4 already and no one has said that the update should just be squatting them? I have to say that I am surprised, in a positive way.

Ashiraya wrote:

I don't get it. He was just suggesting a change to saves? Disagreeing is one thing, but 'trolling'?

Previous threads and various immature comments about boobies and orgies.

Manchu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.

That claim is based on ... ?

Original 2e fluff puts them at about 24,000 in the galaxy (six major orders of between three and four thousand each), with them capping out at their 'height' at 90,000 Sisters (15,000 sisters per order, just after the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose were founded).

3rd edition fluff gave them the Minor Orders, stating that Minor Orders are between one and one thousand Sisters. Did not say anything about how large the Major Orders are.

6th edition Rulebook then has this today instead;

"The Adepta Sororitas are divided into several major Orders Militant, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors. There are also many lesser Sisterhoods comprised of around a few hundred Battle Sisters."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the_Armyman wrote:
No super-heavy walkers, no gimmicky popes in termie armor, and no speeders or bikes or drop podding nonsense.

While I agree with the rest of your points, for the most part, I vehemently demand our drop pods be reinstated, thank you.

What made sisters drop pods different?

They were Dominica-pattern (just a name change and the ability to be taken by Sisters), and our Deathwinds had heavy bolters or multi-meltas instead of missiles.

 Manchu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.

That claim is based on ... ?

The size of the Orders Major (all six of them), the size of the two Training Convents (to which all would-be Sisters are sent from the Schola) and the cap placed on the size of the Orders Minor, all of which has been covered in the various publications about the army since its inception.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They were Dominica-pattern (just a name change and the ability to be taken by Sisters), and our Deathwinds had heavy bolters or multi-meltas instead of missiles.

That sounds pretty good to me.

 Psienesis wrote:
all of which has been covered in the various publications about the army since its inception

And has been retconned before and as things currently stand there is no way to know how many Sisters there are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'd love to see huge mobs of Cultist-type rabble on the board. That would be awesome!

Yes, a cloud of penitents on the heels of a SoB squad ... to be thrown into the fray for the Emperor! I am thinking, a blob that is mostly awful until the SoB squad starts getting down to it, whereupon they are inspired and become scary in their own right.

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Power lances?

I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.

that role is already taken by the black knights, its been that way for a while now. try grabbing some other gimmick. like maybe idk perhaps a sister on a jetbike with flamers in the nose, give them deepstrike?

 Psienesis wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
There are fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there are Space Marines.

That claim is based on ... ?

The size of the Orders Major (all six of them), the size of the two Training Convents (to which all would-be Sisters are sent from the Schola) and the cap placed on the size of the Orders Minor, all of which has been covered in the various publications about the army since its inception.

Not to mention the primary Order Militant nearly being wiped out in combat and having to rebuild from practically nothing.

 Manchu wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
all of which has been covered in the various publications about the army since its inception

And has been retconned before and as things currently stand there is no way to know how many Sisters there are.

Last stated number was in the 6e book, which has not been retconned since, which I quoted above.

 ionusx wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Power lances?

I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.

that role is already taken by the black knights, its been that way for a while now

Sisters of Battle existed before Black Templars, so your objection is irrelevat.

 Manchu wrote:
Warrior monks? That is squarely the province of SM.

No, no it isn't at all. There are many types of warrior monks within the Imperium alone who are not space marines. Sisters of Battle are warrior nuns, which is the female version of warrior monks. I'm absolutely confounded as to how you can be so utterly oblivious and ignorant regarding 40K's fluff. Have you ever read a codex at all?

 Melissia wrote:

 ionusx wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Power lances?

I would love to see Sisters with power lances on bikes, a sort of "jousting knights" kind of feel. But like I said, I have always seen Sisters as very heavily influenced by Knights Hospitaller or Knights Templar.

that role is already taken by the black knights, its been that way for a while now

Sisters of Battle existed before Black Templars, so your objection is irrelevat.

He was talking about Black Knights, just saying.

Black Templars don't actually have any special thing with bikes, so I am not sure of why their time relation to SoB designs is relevant.

Not that I am sure why the time for each faction's implementation is relevant for their sub-units.

He's arguing that "that idea is taken by this faction already", and I was providing a counterpoint.

This idea that bikes belong to one faction or the next is complete and utter irrational nonsense.

He wasn't saying that bikes belong to a faction. He was saying that Jousting Knights as a theme/concept are already covered by Black Knights (from Dark Angels).

On the argument of Bikes vs no Bikes, rather than looking at factions, look at the game's core rules. We are talking about Fast Attack here, no disagreement I am sure. What unit types are Fast Attack? Bikes, Skimmers, Cavalry, Beasts, Infantry with special rules (Jump, Scout, Infiltrate). Did I miss anything?

Now, Scout is probably quite easy to argue for with Sisters, and Dominions already fill this role. Jump Infantry is the role Seraphim have filled since second edition and are so iconic they could not be argued against. Infiltrate? To me, this does not feel like a Sisters of Battle unit, but it could be an Ecclesiarchy unit quite easily! Beasts, IMO, would be right out (unless, say, Arco-Flagellents were reclassified as Beast) as would Cavalry: neither makes sense for Sisters, in my mind. This leaves Bikes and Skimmers are the options available under core 40K rules. Sisters already have two Infantry-based Fast Attack units, so a vehicle-based one seems the most obvious oversight. As such, I believe a new Sisters/Ecclesiarchy codex should include either something with the Bike or Skimmer rule (not both, that would be over-kill). Personally, I would like both, but some kind of Skimmer unit that, say, has a Stormbolter and a couple of Sisters hanging off with Flamers (optional Meltagun upgrade?) sounds like a pretty badarse and fluffy option. Could be over-powered too, but I am just throwing out fluff ideas: I do not propose to be an expert at balance!