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 Ashiraya wrote:
I would like to see the source for this BS.

Keep that in context -- Custom Lime was making the point that the SM get their stuff from the AdMech and the AdMech therefore have at least as effective armour if not also better.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.

I would like to see the source for this BS.

Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.

Wait you really want a source for the Adeptus Mechanicus having better technology than the Space Marines?

They literally teach the Marines how to build the gak they use...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
They literally teach the Marines how to build the gak they use...

Well, how to maintain it at least. Don't think the AdMech lets anyone learn how to build things LOL.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.

I would like to see the source for this BS.

Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.

The Adeptus Mechanicus has better pieces of technology held for themselves. Go through the Skitarii codex for examples.

 Manchu wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Sisters and SMs both wear armor of the same material, per the fluff.

Both types of armour offer the same protection, also per the fluff. So do you want to argue from fluff or not?

Well I always thought this was weird.

Space Marines can float in space right? Thats something SM are protected against that BS are not. Can battle Sisters breath under water? I don't remember their armour protecting them from any water danger like the Space Marines. There are probably a lot of stupid gadgets Marines have that offer heaps of extra protection that I am unaware about. But the Sisters merely have armour.

SM are protected by more than their armour. SM have physiological enhancements as well, which SoB don't. I don't know whether SoB armour confers a self-contained environment but neither do I think that was necessarily the point of the fluff in question; more like they offer the same protection as far as combat goes.

The space marines can float in space because the suits are airtight and they put their bodies in stasis. The sisters armor would also let them float in space... until they ran out of oxygen.

It's hardly relevant. IRL, astronauts have been able to float around in space for decades. It has nothing to do with how effective their suits are in terms of armour.

 deviantduck wrote:
The space marines can float in space because the suits are airtight and they put their bodies in stasis. The sisters armor would also let them float in space... until they ran out of oxygen.

Well duh... Thats what my point was, Space marines in space ships and so on have extra protection than Sisters of Battle because of their armour... which then makes the blurb about Sisters armour being equal in protection a really badly thought out piece of fluff.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.

I would like to see the source for this BS.

Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.

The Adeptus Mechanicus has better pieces of technology held for themselves. Go through the Skitarii codex for examples.

This is conjecture based on game stats (Skitarii weapons and gear supposedly being better in lore due to their game performance) with no basis in the game's lore. The Grey Knights is an excellent example of a non-Admech organisation having technology that by far outstrips that of the Mechanicus.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.

I would like to see the source for this BS.

Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.

The Adeptus Mechanicus has better pieces of technology held for themselves. Go through the Skitarii codex for examples.

This is conjecture based on game stats (Skitarii weapons and gear supposedly being better in lore due to their game performance) with no basis in the game's lore. The Grey Knights is an excellent example of a non-Admech organisation having technology that by far outstrips that of the Mechanicus.

Except the Mechanicus literally teaches the Grey Knights how to maintain their gak, because the Grey Knights don't have unrestricted access to the tech.

So literally by definition they have the -same- tech, and it is likely that the Mechanicus has far better.

Plus the Grey Knights (and the Deathwatch) are hardly typical of a normal Space Marine Chapter, since they heavily and directly supported by the Inquisition.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.

I would like to see the source for this BS.

Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.

The Adeptus Mechanicus has better pieces of technology held for themselves. Go through the Skitarii codex for examples.

This is conjecture based on game stats (Skitarii weapons and gear supposedly being better in lore due to their game performance) with no basis in the game's lore. The Grey Knights is an excellent example of a non-Admech organisation having technology that by far outstrips that of the Mechanicus.

What is your source for the Grey Knights having technology that "far outstrips" the Ad Mech?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.

I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.

But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference.

To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.

I look at the models, and see the Sisters wearing fancier armor, not better armor.

However, if you're going by that, then SMs should be 2+ and Terminators 1+ (2+ re-rolling failed saves).

If you want to argue that Guardsmen should be 6+, I'd be OK with that.
____

I actually would like to see marines be redone with a higher points cost but better defense.

The real reason Sisters have a 3+ save is because it's better than the 4+ save regular Joes can get, and because it's cool. If you need an in-universe explanation, it's that the protection sororitas armor provides is less than that of astartes armor, but astartes armor is not good enough to warrant a 2+.

As an aside, doesn't the black carapace only deal with the snazzy bonus features on power armor? Air conditioning, toxin filters, auspex, etc. I'm pretty sure the armor itself is just as good at stopping bullets regardless of whether or not you have the carapace, but that the carapace lets you move in it, feel through it, turn on the cd player, etc. more easily.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.

I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.

But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference.

To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.

I look at the models, and see the Sisters wearing fancier armor, not better armor.

However, if you're going by that, then SMs should be 2+ and Terminators 1+ (2+ re-rolling failed saves).

If you want to argue that Guardsmen should be 6+, I'd be OK with that.
____

I actually would like to see marines be redone with a higher points cost but better defense.

The real reason Sisters have a 3+ save is because it's better than the 4+ save regular Joes can get, and because it's cool. If you need an in-universe explanation, it's that the protection sororitas armor provides is less than that of astartes armor, but astartes armor is not good enough to warrant a 2+.

As an aside, doesn't the black carapace only deal with the snazzy bonus features on power armor? Air conditioning, toxin filters, auspex, etc. I'm pretty sure the armor itself is just as good at stopping bullets regardless of whether or not you have the carapace, but that the carapace lets you move in it, feel through it, turn on the cd player, etc. more easily.

It also lets them move easier and all that jazz, but ya it doesn't make the armor anymore bullet proof.

 TheCustomLime wrote:



What is your source for the Grey Knights having technology that "far outstrips" the Ad Mech?

Codex Grey Knights, page 6.

Of all the armies of the Imperium, the Grey Knights can boast to have the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command.

The AdMech is the faction that deals with most technology in the Imperium. However, this is -not- the same thing as having the best. I often see people confuse the two, but as you see, that is an error - kind of like the idea that IG and SoB bolters are on par with Astartes weapons.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:



What is your source for the Grey Knights having technology that "far outstrips" the Ad Mech?

Codex Grey Knights, page 6.

Of all the armies of the Imperium, the Grey Knights can boast to have the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command.

The AdMech is the faction that deals with most technology in the Imperium. However, this is -not- the same thing as having the best. I often see people confuse the two, but as you see, that is an error - kind of like the idea that IG and SoB bolters are on par with Astartes weapons.

If the Grey Knights have "the most technologically advanced and murderously efficient weaponry under their command" then the Mechanicus does, too, because those weapons were manufactured by the Mechanicum.

Source:

Every weapon used in the armies of Mankind can trace its origin to a forge world of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Page 6, Cult Mechanicus codex.

The Adeptus Mechanicus supplies the Grey Knight's technology and has the blue prints to make them. They have the technology as much as the Grey Knights do. In addition. the Ad Mech makes stuff like Imperator Titans, Emperor-class battleships, warp drives and stuff not even the Space Marines have access to. I would hardly think that a Psy-cannon is a better piece of tech than a Hellstorm cannon.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus supplies the Grey Knight's technology and has the blue prints to make them. They have the technology as much as the Grey Knights do. In addition. the Ad Mech makes stuff like Imperator Titans, Emperor-class battleships, warp drives and stuff not even the Space Marines have access to. I would hardly think that a Psy-cannon is a better piece of tech than a Hellstorm cannon.

Lets size this down, does anyone besides the Ad Mech have access to Plasma Calivers, Heavy Grav Cannons, Torsions Cannons, Volkite Blasters, Radium Carbines, Arc Rifles (heavy and normal) Phosphor Blasters, Neutron Lasers, Eradication Beamers, or Transuronic Arqubeus? No? Well they have the highest tech in the Imperium, because they're a bunch of hoarders

Power armour: Constructed from thick ceramite plates, the power armour worn by the Adepta Sororitas is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced support systems and strength enhancing abilities, for the Sisters of Battle do not possess a Space Marine’s ability to interface directly with their own armour. Despite this, the Sisters of Battle are one of the few forces outside of the Adeptus Astartes to be granted the right to wear such formidable armour, and they are trained to use its abilities to deadly effect
Power armour confers a 3+ Armour Save

Pg 58 of the epub version of the codex.



P.g 19 Witch Hunter codex

Guys what are we arguing about? GW themselves say that sister power armour protects the same as Space Marine. While lacking a bunch of extra functions and abilities that the marines have access to, it's protective capabilities are the same. We are free to disagree with GW on this fact but that does not change the reality of the situation. There is no need to argue as GW already thinks that power armour protects the same as Space Marine power armours so when I go to the LGS tomorrow I will be rolling 3+ armour saves (the Emperor protects!).

As has been said by several posters already, it may be true that SM power armour offers more protection than the SOB variant. It may be true the SM lean more to the 2+/3+ end of the 3+ save scale, while SoB lean closer to the 3+/4+ side. But there is no way the difference is so extensive as to simulate it in game.
Personally I'd put your average marine on Termie stats/points and have Termie armour merely be reduced by AP1-2 weapons, not ignored. But we'd probably be playing a whole different game by that point.


As for a new SoB codex, or Ecclessiarchy codex as it were, I would suggest three points.

Acts of Faith
It's worked well as something truly unique to the sisters, but not always something that's been as effective as it could be. Regardless of what form it takes (and several dakkaknights have already made good suggestions) it -needs- to be in any new codex. Given that miracles rarely occur when there's no dire need for them, it makes sense that Acts of Faith should grow more powerful (or more powerful ones should be unlocked) the more mauled an SoB force gets.
And given that sisters are supposed to be inspirational as all hell, I'd suggest a particular Act of Faith that applies to certain allies. Something that represents even the most cynical guardsman being brought to tears of joy by the religious fervour. This would have the added effect of sisters being taken as allies as a tactically smart choice, not just a fluffy one.

Air Support
It's not really fluffy to have Adepta Sorirtas pilots, unless a whole new sub-order is created. Here is where the wealth of the Ecclessiarchy should come into play, using their influence to acquire Imperial Navy assets as support. It would take a brave naval officer to refuse assistance (even at the expense of other objectives) when the mere suspicion of heresy can spell death.
I think that an 'Ecclessiarchy' codex should be able to select a unit from the Imperial Guard, for much the same reasons. Similar to how Eldar Corsairs can choose a single troop/elite/fast attack from the Eldar codex.

Martyr Manifestation
I cannot understand how we have the Legion of the Damned while we don't have anything similar for the Sisters. There are accounts knights in the Crusades, as in the real life ones. would claim to have seen hosts of angels descend and butcher their Saracen enemies.
It makes sense that there would be some similar phenomenon for the SoB. Not just the angelic visage of Celestine (who is so far the closet thing) and a host of Seraphim, but a real -literal- manifestation of raw faith and the Emperor's Will given form.
I'd say it should work something similar to a daemon summoning, just from the other end of the spectrum. Perhaps it sounds unoriginal but I reckon that could be captured fairly well by something similar to the Age of Sigmar models.

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
Guys what are we arguing about? GW themselves say that sister power armour protects the same as Space Marine.

Basically people arguing that GW should retcon this:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have eyes, so I do not intend to buy that their armour provides equal protection anytime soon.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
While GW likes to say "3+" it should be 5+ or 4+.

 Manchu wrote:

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
Guys what are we arguing about? GW themselves say that sister power armour protects the same as Space Marine.

Basically people arguing that GW should retcon this:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have eyes, so I do not intend to buy that their armour provides equal protection anytime soon.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
While GW likes to say "3+" it should be 5+ or 4+.

Which is dumb, the Sisters have been screwed over enough, dont make it worse

Sure I agree:

 Manchu wrote:
I don't get the point of this line of argument anyhow. One of the core concepts of SoB is "normal humans wearing power armour." There is no reason to redesign SoB backwards (from existing models to a new concept) in a way that invalidates a big part of their brand identity.

My opinions are probably heretical, but I'm going to post them anyways.

Firstly, as for the Space Marines power armor vs Sisters power armor: IMO Power Armor should give 3+ save and +1 Str, regardless of who uses it. The black carapace makes you faster and have a better reaction time, this translates to a bonus to initiative, and maybe an extra melee attack. Relative to Sisters, Space Marines should have +1 I, +1 A and +1 T. The whole Minus Four Strength this is moronic. The difference between an unarmored unaugmented human, and and unarmored unaugmented Space Marine should be less than the difference between a normal unaugmented human with armor vs without. So that's obviously the first thing I'd update.

As for the actual fluff, I look at miracles from the perspective that ALL SUPERNATURAL ABILITIES COME FROM THE WARP. Which means that faith powers are weird psudo psyker powers. Sisters seem almost like nascent Daemons to the Emperor's Nascent Warp God, and should be stated as such. 6++ compared to daemon's 5++, and more subtle abilities compared to obvious psyker craziness of Chaos. But the Emperor opposes Chaos, and the Sisters Abhor the Witch. Which means that they should be among the best anti-psyker armies out there, but instead, have merely a +1 to deny the witch, assuming that said power is targeting them, and assuming that they've got any dice to spare.

The wargear for anti-psyker units already exists in the Inquisition Codex, the Psyocculum and the Null Rod both are things that should be either available to special characters, or rolled into a special character. The core battle sisters are they are now are fine. That is, the BSS, Dominions, Seraphim and Celestians (Though melee Celestians would be cool.) Giving the Celestians a drop pod so that they can get rending heavy flamers into relevant places quickly, is probably worth doing though.

Celestine should have Eternal Warrior, but since I'm the one in charge, I'm going to go one further, and have her upgraded to something like they did with the Ork that became a Lord of War, and make her a Flying Monstrous Creature. Or maybe have a non-named saint that can be customized like a mini-daemon prince, all angelic and sometimes with wings. This is our laser eyes miracle unit, which lets everything else be more subtle.

The Canoness should be able to take a jump pack, and the Command Squad needs someone better than me to make it worthwhile.

Repentia are cool in theory, but need something that lets them not melt when something looks at them, someone mentioned 5++, which I think works, and their act could give them a 3++ for a turn or something.

I'd stick the dedicated anti-psyker into Elites. Something Akin to the Sisters of Silence, and maybe an Independent HQ that doesn't use up a FOC, that can hop into other units similar to what a Hereticus Inquisitor with Null Rod and Psyocculum would be able to do.

Instead of creating a whole new unit for anti-air, an alternate miracle for the Seraphim could work instead (Sister Superior Upgrade/Sidegrade?), let them act like flyers for a turn, this gives them good reason to take the 2x double Melta again.

As for the Penitent Engines, I don't like them, so I haven't thought about how to make them worthwhile, nor will I.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.

I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.

But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference.

To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.

I look at the models, and see the Sisters wearing fancier armor, not better armor.

However, if you're going by that, then SMs should be 2+ and Terminators 1+ (2+ re-rolling failed saves).

If you want to argue that Guardsmen should be 6+, I'd be OK with that.
____

I actually would like to see marines be redone with a higher points cost but better defense.

The real reason Sisters have a 3+ save is because it's better than the 4+ save regular Joes can get, and because it's cool. If you need an in-universe explanation, it's that the protection sororitas armor provides is less than that of astartes armor, but astartes armor is not good enough to warrant a 2+.

As an aside, doesn't the black carapace only deal with the snazzy bonus features on power armor? Air conditioning, toxin filters, auspex, etc. I'm pretty sure the armor itself is just as good at stopping bullets regardless of whether or not you have the carapace, but that the carapace lets you move in it, feel through it, turn on the cd player, etc. more easily.

The Codices for the SoB, since the very first printing, have always stated that their Power Armor provides protection equal to that of the Astartes.

regarding the power armour used by the adepta sororitas the thing to remember is that there is an entirely diferent design principle at work compared to the space marine armour. while the space marine armour is designed for a wide variety of situations and has a large number of subsystems installed to aid the space marine in combat. the adepta sorotitas armour however is stripped down of pretty much all subsystems and has just enough strength enhancement not to break your arm when you fire a bolter. space marines are also much larger compared to regular human beings so their armour has to be much larger to fully incase them

regarding a potential update i like the idea of the cannoness providing 1d6 faith points with a potential saint upgrade that changes it to 2d6, as well as a martyrdom rule where the number of units that died in the previous turn add to the number of faith points and the ability to choose which faith power from a list to apply to any unit.

i do agree with giving the cannoness the abiltity to give her a jumpack which i believe would make her more versitile. regarding celestians however i have always seen them more like kabalite true born or dark angel vetrens then as an assualt unit, so i would actually advise giving them the ability to equip them with more speical/heavy weapons and maybe giving them a chainsword for the extra melee attack

I like the one vehicle upgrade in the FW tank battalion rules, that represent the faith and positive mojo imprinted on the vehicle by the heroic acts of previous crews that grant an extra deny the witch die. That seems an appropriate option for SoB.

Yeah, no, that is definitely propaganda.

Vandire651 wrote:
space marines are also much larger compared to regular human beings so their armour has to be much larger to fully incase them

The larger issue (no pun intended) is, why are SM themselves so big? I doubt it really makes them better warriors from a strictly mechanical point of view, just as body builders are not necessarily better warriors than more normally proportioned humans. But what being giant does achieve is a certain intimidation factor. SM were designed by the Emperor to re-conquer humanity among the stars: in other words, the target demographic was normal humans. SM physiological enhancement and armour combine to create truly impressive and scary giants; the kind of soldiers that would overawe normal humans. SoB by contrast have no need for this: they are guardians rather than conquerors. They don't need to intimidate humans, they need to inspire them.