Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Melissia wrote:
Assuming we get a Sisters of Battle, Adepta Sororitas, or Adeptus Ministorum codex (IE, not deleted or merged), in what direction would you prefer to see Sisters taken?

I think I would prefer them to AVOID piling on SMlite as much as possible, while attempting to fix those units in the codex that just aren't worth taking. Witch Hunters, Storm Troopers and what not can easily be allied in, no reason to add them into the SoB codex. Most of the codex is solid, here are my problem children.

Canoness- she shouldn't be prancing around like Shrike, give us a reason to take her. Army wide buffs or something from her oratory or presence, perhaps all SoB units use her leadership if she's alive or what not. Leader, yes. Super gene enhanced killing machine, no. Or a list of divine acts the Canoness can call down, army wide shrouded, boosts to faith save or some such. Perhaps even something that resets the count on units Acts of Faith.

Repentia- give them fleet and a 5+ faith save with feel no pain standard. Make their act of faith remove unwieldy. I do really like the idea of including a small number as an upgrade to an existing squad of non repentia sisters. Allow them to take challenges, Would get them out of the elite slot as well. OR, turn them into much cheaper militia with an eviscerator, no save, barely a faith save, and an unwieldy death machine for standard issue, in the TROOPS section.

Celestians- give them upgrades akin to vanguard veterans, keep them sisterly weapon types of course, but give the entire squad the option to kit out for chopping stuff up. OR, give them a rosaries (4++ invuln) and a power sword in addition to current build with little to no point increase. In other words make them worth the points they are now, rather than just boosting the cost for any upgrade.

Penitent Engines- fleet and 5+ faith save with feel no pain and it will not die standard. Make their act of faith allow additional close combat attacks for each successful hit. OR just make them a lot cheaper, they are a fluffy throw away unit that is designed to cause havoc and then die terribly (hopefully in that order anyways) we shouldn't have to pay so much for them.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The whole "Sisters are Knights / SMs are Knights" confusion and overlap is a lot of the reason why Sisters don't sell. They're geared like SMs, but they're not as good because they don't have the statline, nor any of the high tech stuff, nor any of the long range gear. And the models cost a lot more. Sisters lack the notion of being walking heraldry, along with the conversion bitz to tailor the army to a personal vision.

But they have ridiculous "boob plate" armor which flies in face of the tech as described in 40k.

See, the lack of a marine statline and lack of access to, for instance, thunderfires or grav weapons isn't an issue for me. I like that they aren't marines. I just also like that their faith powers are their own unique edge that makes them interesting and effective on the tabletop.

Boob plate isn't especially realistic, but it isn't a power armor bikini either.

And honestly, I think the sisters' power armor armor is pretty darn cool looking. I actually like it quite a bit more than most images of marine power armor I see.

The problem is that that Faith angle isn't carried over with the rest of the Ecclesiarchy / WH units. Where is the mass of Frateris Militia?

The Sisters look great. The problem is that their armor looks like it should confer 5+ at most, not a 3+ Save.

@JohnHwang: How so regarding the armor? Those are some pretty three plus-looking pauldrons, and all the (presumably) leather bits look like they're either decorative or for additional protection. The layers may not be as thick as astartes armor, that doesn't mean the materials don't put them in the same ballpark of protection. The difference between a vest and helmet and carapace armor is only a side on a d6. The difference between astartes armor and terminator armor is only one side of a d6. Could be that marine armor simply isn't thick enough to be 2+ armor. Sister armor looks more protective than carapace.

I'd be all for frateris millitia.

@dracpanzer: Cool ideas all around! I especially like the Canones as a source of army-wide acts idea. Not sure what you mean by the Shrike thing thought. An "angel" on wings of flame with a jump pack would be awesome! Also, FNP wouldn't technically work on a penitent engine would it? Since it's a vehicle?

The stats in 40k are not really granular enough to be the basis for an argument about how 40k tech works. Sisters wear power armour so they have a power armour save; it's as simple as that, so far as 40k rules are concerned.

They don't have the black carapace, do they?

No, they are just normal people.

In power armor!

3+ save!

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The whole "Sisters are Knights / SMs are Knights" confusion and overlap is a lot of the reason why Sisters don't sell. They're geared like SMs, but they're not as good because they don't have the statline, nor any of the high tech stuff, nor any of the long range gear. And the models cost a lot more. Sisters lack the notion of being walking heraldry, along with the conversion bitz to tailor the army to a personal vision.

But they have ridiculous "boob plate" armor which flies in face of the tech as described in 40k.

See, the lack of a marine statline and lack of access to, for instance, thunderfires or grav weapons isn't an issue for me. I like that they aren't marines. I just also like that their faith powers are their own unique edge that makes them interesting and effective on the tabletop.

Boob plate isn't especially realistic, but it isn't a power armor bikini either.

And honestly, I think the sisters' power armor armor is pretty darn cool looking. I actually like it quite a bit more than most images of marine power armor I see.

The problem is that that Faith angle isn't carried over with the rest of the Ecclesiarchy / WH units. Where is the mass of Frateris Militia?

The Sisters look great. The problem is that their armor looks like it should confer 5+ at most, not a 3+ Save.

I thnk the armour looks fine in a universe where materials can be so advanced that they cna be cosnidered magical - but then most figures should get a -1 to armour saves without helmits

Plastic and more options is all they really need...............

The Frateris Militia might be faithful, but they aren't so faithful that they do miraculous things. No AoF for the FM.

 dracpanzer wrote:
[snip]

Would you add to the codex? At the moment, I feel that this is the codex with the least variety of units and playstyles in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
black carapace

So? Inquisitors and Techpriests have power armor without black carapace.

 Psienesis wrote:
No AoF for the FM.

Agreed. I think the Fratris Militia are basically normal people caught up in religious hysteria. SoB should have AoF effects that make Fratris Militia more dangerous.

I have been thinking about some ideas for new units lately as well.

One of sisters main defining characteristic for me is that they are a short range firefight army that does poorly in hth. I would like to see more rules and mechanics for getting us up the board faster to engage the enemy such as scout, infiltrate, deep strike, fast vehicles , drop pods etc. We should also be supported by glass cannon melee units that hit hard but can’t take return fire.

One big thing is that we need proper anti pysker defence. AW does not cut it. I am tired of just sitting around getting ripped apart in the psychic phase. Some ideas might be to give us a 4+ AW roll. Ways to generate more dispel dice. Maybe even make it harder for pyskers to cast powers such as a -1 to all harness the warp rolls.

As for new units I’ve got a few kicking around.

Guardians of the Sanctuary
They carry praesidium protectiva and are armed with power axes/mauls that ae also one shot flamers. They gain bonus for being near objectives such as fearless, counter attack and furious charge. Allow them to infiltrate onto objectives at the start of the game.

Artillery weapons of some kind. Sisters are often tasked with defending positions such as churches, relics and planets etc that it makes sense for them to defensive emplacements to help protect the good stuff. I like the idea of a giant melta cannon with decent range 36” that has a blast and can be switched to a torrent flamer weapon when the enemies get close (think 2ed multi-melta BUT ON CRACK..erm FAITH!!!!)

Angel tears AA gun.
A aa gun that uses explosive incendiary air-bursts to knock out enemy flyers. Besides doing and normal damage all flyers take a crash and burn test (flying MC’s take a grounding test instead) Str 8 ap 4 twin linked ignores cover (you’re flying throw a giant fire ball accuracy is not an issue and good luck jinking your way out of that you godless heretics!)

A reversion for repentia I’ve had was to make them troops and give them a heavy chainsword (+1 str.) Make them fearless and drop their cost down a ton (6-7pts). If they are killed your opponent scores no VPs for them but if they live to the end of the game your opponent gets a VP.

Penitent engines are fine as is if they are dropped to 45pts and moved to the elite section. Otherwise they need survivability and speed upgrades to do their job.

Finally for a low there can be only one choice: CHURCH TANK!!!!!

Wyldhunt wrote:
@JohnHwang: How so regarding the armor? Those are some pretty three plus-looking pauldrons, and all the (presumably) leather bits look like they're either decorative or for additional protection. The layers may not be as thick as astartes armor, that doesn't mean the materials don't put them in the same ballpark of protection. The difference between a vest and helmet and carapace armor is only a side on a d6. The difference between astartes armor and terminator armor is only one side of a d6. Could be that marine armor simply isn't thick enough to be 2+ armor. Sister armor looks more protective than carapace.

Sisters are ordinary women, not superhuman males. They are wearing the equivalent of full plate, which is probably a 60+ lb harness plus their backpack.

A Guardsman is exactly like a modern soldier, and they typically run not much less weight with their body armor and field packs.

And then you have Space Marines who are the pinnacle of human genetics, futher augmented by hypertech science. They wear massive armor, produced in very small volumes, and they only get a 3+

Sisters armor is more decorative and stylish, less protective or functional, still worn by an ordinary woman. Sisters cannot have higher-tech armor than Space Marines (better protection per pound), and it's clearly significantly less total armor. But it still has a 3+ Save as armor 3x as thick and x as good? Nope. While GW likes to say "3+" it should be 5+ or 4+.

Being generous, I put Sisters at a 4+ Save and make up the diffrence with a big 5++ Faith save.

You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or perhaps it's the smaller footprint creating a smaller target, or the curvature of the plating to deflect more shots which keeps the save low.

Turning Sisters in to glorified guardsmen because you don't like their aesthetics is very petty.

Sisters have power armor. Therefor, they have a 3+ save. Nerfing Sisters and turning htem in to a horde army is lame. If I want an army of 4+ save T3 soldiers, I'll play something else. Them being humans in power armor is kind of the entire point.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
@JohnHwang: How so regarding the armor? Those are some pretty three plus-looking pauldrons, and all the (presumably) leather bits look like they're either decorative or for additional protection. The layers may not be as thick as astartes armor, that doesn't mean the materials don't put them in the same ballpark of protection. The difference between a vest and helmet and carapace armor is only a side on a d6. The difference between astartes armor and terminator armor is only one side of a d6. Could be that marine armor simply isn't thick enough to be 2+ armor. Sister armor looks more protective than carapace.

Sisters are ordinary women, not superhuman males. They are wearing the equivalent of full plate, which is probably a 60+ lb harness plus their backpack.

A Guardsman is exactly like a modern soldier, and they typically run not much less weight with their body armor and field packs.

And then you have Space Marines who are the pinnacle of human genetics, futher augmented by hypertech science. They wear massive armor, produced in very small volumes, and they only get a 3+

Sisters armor is more decorative and stylish, less protective or functional, still worn by an ordinary woman. Sisters cannot have higher-tech armor than Space Marines (better protection per pound), and it's clearly significantly less total armor. But it still has a 3+ Save as armor 3x as thick and x as good? Nope. While GW likes to say "3+" it should be 5+ or 4+.

Being generous, I put Sisters at a 4+ Save and make up the diffrence with a big 5++ Faith save.

Thickness is not the only measurement of protection. Sisters Power Armor is made out of the same material as Marine armor is and nothing suggests that it is poor in make. The principle difference between Sisters PA and Marine PA is that Sisters can't get as much mileage out of their PA due to their lack of the black carapace. A Marine is faster, stronger and tougher than a Sister but his PA isn't considerably superior to a sisters to warrant reducing her save. 40k doesn't have the granularity to represent more subtle differences like that so giving a Sister a 4+ would be doing her armor an injustice. It would be suggesting that she is wearing a gussied up suit of carapace armor.

I am on the fence here as I think SoB armour straddles the line between 4+ and 3+. It's eaiser in more granular RPGs.

 deviantduck wrote:
You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.

I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.
____

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Thickness is not the only measurement of protection. Sisters Power Armor is made out of the same material as Marine armor is and nothing suggests that it is poor in make.

The principle difference between Sisters PA and Marine PA is that Sisters can't get as much mileage out of their PA due to their lack of the black carapace. A Marine is faster, stronger and tougher than a Sister but his PA isn't considerably superior to a sisters to warrant reducing her save.

40k doesn't have the granularity to represent more subtle differences like that so giving a Sister a 4+ would be doing her armor an injustice. It would be suggesting that she is wearing a gussied up suit of carapace armor.

Even assuming that Sisters armor is of the exact same quality of it, you are not convincing me that less of it, in thinner layers provides equal protection. That's just not how armor works.

The SM wears more, thicker armor than the Sister. If more, thicker armor gives a Terminator a better armor save than a PA SM, then the PA SM should have a better save than a Sister.

Why would it be doing her armor an injustice? She *is* wearing nothing more than fancier carapace.


Now, if you want to say that Sisters are Orks, and they have a 3+ because they believe it to be so, then that is an entirely different line of discussion. But even then, under what intrinsic basis do they believe it to be worth the same 3+ as the much larger SMs that they encounter? Ork Meks at least add enough wires, gubbins, blinkers and coils that the combination of all that stuff creates a result. Or have convincingly observed across several generations that Red paint really does make something go fasta.

Sororitas power armor is power armor that, by GW canon, provides the same level of protection as Astartes armor, but with less strength-enhancing servos and other such advanced features. That latter part is why it's not as cartoonishly thick as astartes power armor is.

It is times like this that I wish that the Standard Marine Statline get upgraded from 4s to 5s (with the appropriate rebalance and/or rules rewrite, of course), so that the non-marine human represention will not be limited to just 3s, which at the moment covers a way-too broad group.

Anyway, my ideas Fluff-wise:

Relations with the Ecclesiarchy: While they were reformed as the servants of the post-Vandire Ecclesiarchy, by the time 40k rolls in the Adepta Sororitas grew so much as an organization that they are almost a separate entity that are more of an "allies" to the Ecclesiarchy than servants.

Relations with the Admech: There is canonically a very sizable Admech faction that preaches the "The Omnissiah is the part of the Emperor" or even the "There is no Omnissiah, just the Emperor". The Sisters can hang out with those, become Sororitas Tech-priestesses and get access to some nifty gear.

Numbers: Get rid of the old "less numerous than the space marine" BS. The Sisters easily outnumber the Marines, while the Guard easily outnumbers them both.

Decree Passive: By the time 40k comes, the only relevant part of this document is the "Girls only", so the Sisters can field whatever they want. The Ecclesiarchy wanted to get rid of it altogether and get direct control of IG, but the Sisters "gently" reminded them what happened to Vandire.

Weapons: My own headcanon is that unlike the specially designed 30k versions, the modern 40k Marine handheld weapons are normal human weapons crudely scaled up for Marine standards with the expectations that the Marine physique will bruteforce away the drawbacks, which they do, but not completely, and thus they are a LOT less effective than their 30k counterparts. In comparison, the Sororitas handheld weapons are specifically designed for heavily trained power armor wearing humans, and thus the Sisters fight the enemy instead of their own weapons.

Vehicles: With both theirs and the Ecclesiarchy's influence and wealth, they have better toys than most IG regiments. In particular, they inherited the most of Solar Auxilia stuff and even some odd Crusade-era Marine gear here and there.

Scouts/Recon/Snipers/Assassins: The Sisters are partially based on the Dune's clandestine Bene Geserit, so them having some sneaky units is not that far-fetched. Besides, zealotry is an another form of obsession, and I definitely can see Sisters obsessed enough to wait still for Emperor knows how long for that perfect chance to decapitate the enemy in one strike.

EDIT: And I definitely want an all-female Codex: Adepta Sororitas and NOT Codex: Ecclesiarchy.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.

I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.

But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference. Compare a Sister of Battle (3+) model to a Scout Marine (4+) or a Stormtrooper (4+). You could even use the metal Scouts and Stormies so the comparison is like to like in terms of the type/age of model. The Sister is clearly, without question, wearing a better form of protection. The Scouts and Stormtroopers have large areas only protected by cloth (legs, arms and gaps in the carapace), whereas the Sister is totally protected by an enclosed armour of a powered type (ie that's what the backpack is for).

To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.

Even if SoB armour offers less protection than SM armour, the difference may not be great enough to merit simulation in the rules of 40k.

I don't get the point of this line of argument anyhow. One of the core concepts of SoB is "normal humans wearing power armour." There is no reason to redesign SoB backwards (from existing models to a new concept) in a way that invalidates a big part of their brand identity.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.

I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.
____

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Thickness is not the only measurement of protection. Sisters Power Armor is made out of the same material as Marine armor is and nothing suggests that it is poor in make.

The principle difference between Sisters PA and Marine PA is that Sisters can't get as much mileage out of their PA due to their lack of the black carapace. A Marine is faster, stronger and tougher than a Sister but his PA isn't considerably superior to a sisters to warrant reducing her save.

40k doesn't have the granularity to represent more subtle differences like that so giving a Sister a 4+ would be doing her armor an injustice. It would be suggesting that she is wearing a gussied up suit of carapace armor.

Even assuming that Sisters armor is of the exact same quality of it, you are not convincing me that less of it, in thinner layers provides equal protection. That's just not how armor works.

The SM wears more, thicker armor than the Sister. If more, thicker armor gives a Terminator a better armor save than a PA SM, then the PA SM should have a better save than a Sister.

Why would it be doing her armor an injustice? She *is* wearing nothing more than fancier carapace.


Now, if you want to say that Sisters are Orks, and they have a 3+ because they believe it to be so, then that is an entirely different line of discussion. But even then, under what intrinsic basis do they believe it to be worth the same 3+ as the much larger SMs that they encounter? Ork Meks at least add enough wires, gubbins, blinkers and coils that the combination of all that stuff creates a result. Or have convincingly observed across several generations that Red paint really does make something go fasta.

It could be that Space Marine power armor is bulkier, as Melissia said, because it includes many ancillary features like strength enhancers, waste recyclers etc. There is nowhere in the fluff that suggests that Sororitas PA isn't much better than Carapace armor. Further, while there may be a difference (I believe so) it is not large enough to justify a reduced save within the current 40k system. It doesn't have enough space to represent the small disparity.

If you believe that human Power Armor isn't significantly more protective than human carapace armor then I don't know what to say to you. Read up on the fluff?

Also, the thickness of armor doesn't mean it is any more or less protective. After all, a pillow is thicker than an inch of steel, but I know which one I would rather hide behind.

Perhaps whatever Archaeotech pattern of armor the Sororitas is fortunate to use is made of better materials than Ceramite (adamantium?) and therefore need not be as thick.

If that were true Ogryn carapace armor would provide a 3+ armor save.

 GoonBandito wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
You're trying to apply our world logic to classify the save. For all we know, the fact that the armor is blessed makes it work better.

I'm trying to apply in-world / in-universe logic, and within the parameters of 40k, Sisters cannot be as well-armored as SMs. Particularly if they are still unaugmented, normal "human" females.

But we know exactly what the armour is like - we don't have to try to apply any thing - because we can look at a physical model to see the difference.

To say that a Sister of Battle is any thing but a 3+ save is to wilfully ignore the physical evidence, ie the actual physical models that we're holding in our hands. There is absolutely no way the Sister of Battle model is wearing 5+ or 4+.

I look at the models, and see the Sisters wearing fancier armor, not better armor.

However, if you're going by that, then SMs should be 2+ and Terminators 1+ (2+ re-rolling failed saves).

If you want to argue that Guardsmen should be 6+, I'd be OK with that.
____

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Also, the thickness of armor doesn't mean it is any more or less protective. After all, a pillow is thicker than an inch of steel, but I know which one I would rather hide behind.

Perhaps whatever Archaeotech pattern of armor the Sororitas is fortunate to use is made of better materials than Ceramite (adamantium?) and therefore need not be as thick.

Sisters and SMs both wear armor of the same material, per the fluff. SMs just wear more of it. An inch of steel is better than steel foil.

No, Sisters don't have better "pattern" or better materials. That makes no sense when SMs would have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.

The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal. The Ad Mech does.

Again, thickness isn't everything when it comes to armor otherwise Bullgryns would have 3+ armor saves as their Carapace is a lot thicker than regular human carapace.

Also, how do you know the Marines have better tech than the sisters?

In a hidebound empire suspicious of high technology and unrelentingly dedicated to immensely stupid traditions, why would the Marines have better tech in their "traditional garb" than any other organization's "traditional garb?"

The Imperium has its head so far up its own ass technologically that they don't even know what the best tech that they possess in a given field IS, not to mention who to give it to.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Sisters and SMs both wear armor of the same material, per the fluff.

Both types of armour offer the same protection, also per the fluff. So do you want to argue from fluff or not?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Space Marines do not have the pinnacle of Imperial tech at their disposal.

I would like to see the source for this BS.

Every source I have ever read on Space Marines in my life agrees on that Space Marines wield 'the deadliest/most powerful/most advanced armour and weapons known to Man'.