I recently charged an invisibility unit into a unit of Eldar wraiths with d-sycthes. I was thinking he needed 6s to hit me until he picked up the dice to roll 5 D3 "D" hits. Oooops ---- I knew instantly, I had made a mistake or did I? The wall of death rule says you can fire overwatch even though they are templates. The invisibility blessing says the enemy can only fire snap shots. The wall of death is not a snap shot. How do you play this? Thanks.

Wall of Death IS a Snap Shot applied when a Template weapon is in Overwatch. And that is where things get fuzzy.

In one way, it is kind of like an Invisible unit charging Dark Angels with Grim Resolve.

Invisible unit charges a D-sycthe unit, the wall of fire rule does d3 hits to the unit per model, you can't snap fire template weapons but your not, your simply doing d3 hits to a unit, it's a sweet little way around invisible units

Wall of death rule states:

"Template weapons can fire overwatch even though they cannot fire snap shots"

(Weapon rules, p173).

To me, that reads as confirmation that it is not a snapshot - it specifically says they can't - hence, if there is a second reason that you are limited to snap shots (beyon the more general overwatch rules), such as invisibility or deathleaper, you cannot use it, because it's not a snap shot.

Can not agree with your reasoning, there is no need to create an outcome where Template weapons firing Overwatch are no longer Snap Shooting... permission to fire Overwatch is all they need.

The real question is:
Does Permission to Fire Overwatch obey other 'Must Snap Shot' Restrictions?

So where are we?

The d-scythes can fire and hit invisible units at D3 hits per template (kind of like HoW gets auto hits on invisible units) or is there still a question regarding "must snap shot"?

Invisible models can only be hit by snap shots.

Wall of Death is not a snap shot.

 insaniak wrote:
Invisible models can only be hit by snap shots.

Incorrect. "...enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6." Nothing about only being hit by Snap Shots.

The Shot may or may not still be a 'Snap Shot...'

Reasoning of Yay:
During Overwatch, Shots are only allowed to be fired as Snap-Shots
Wall of Death over-writes the 'templates can not fire' section within the Snap-Shot Rule

Reasoning of Nay:
During Overwatch, Shots are only allowed to be fired as Snap-Shots
Wall of Death gives permission for the Template weapon regardless if it is a Snap-Shot

insaniak is correct - brilliant !

Wall of Death isn't stopped by Snap Shots, nor is it really even Shooting Attacks.

Invisibility does not state the models may only be hit by snap shots.

It says enemy units can only fire snap shots at the target unit.

If it stated the first thing scattered blast markers and templates that clip some invis models in addition to the target unit would have no effect on invisible units, which is not true. It would also make invis models immune to explosions, etc.

Charistoph wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Invisible models can only be hit by snap shots.

Incorrect. "...enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6." Nothing about only being hit by Snap Shots.

Poor paraphrasing on my part, but the point still stands.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Shot may or may not still be a 'Snap Shot...'

It really can't.

Because -

Reasoning of Yay:
During Overwatch, Shots are only allowed to be fired as Snap-Shots
Wall of Death over-writes the 'templates can not fire' section within the Snap-Shot Rule

...Nothing in this changes the fact that Wall of Death isn't listed as a snap shot.


It's something that happens even though the weapon can't fire snap shots. It's not a snap shot.



The closest you get to allowing Wall of Death against Invisible targets is through the argument that the models don't actually 'fire' the weapon (as in, they don't follow the normal shooting process), but WoD simply applies hits to the target unit.

Which is shaky ground, IMO.



Having said that, I would play as allowing WoD to apply, as the rules in this case are silly. Being charged by something you can't see is exactly the time you would be firing up those flamers and roasting everything you can reach.

Wall of Death is not a Shot, period, being nothing more then an always present sub-set of the Template Special Rule....

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.
- Resolve Overwatch

In order to meet the above requirements the Shot produced by firing a Weapon with the Wall of Death Special Rule must either:
a) be a Snap Shot
b) have permission to fire even though it is not a Snap Shot

JinxDragon wrote:
Wall of Death is not a Shot, period, being nothing more then an always present sub-set of the Template Special Rule....

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.
- Resolve Overwatch

In order to meet the above requirements the Shot produced by firing a Weapon with the Wall of Death Special Rule must either:
a) be a Snap Shot
b) have permission to fire even though it is not a Snap Shot

Or C) be some sort of atrociously written special rule that is neither a "shot" (i.e. shooting attack) nor a CC attack. It is like Stomp in this way.

JinxDragon wrote:
In order to meet the above requirements the Shot produced by firing a Weapon with the Wall of Death Special Rule must either:
a) be a Snap Shot
b) have permission to fire even though it is not a Snap Shot

Sure. And WoD meets option 'b'. It is given permission to fire despite not being a snap shot.

Hmm this is interesting. I always thought the invisible units would be automatically hit by a wall of death just like non-invisible units. Having read this thread and the rules again it seems:

Models firing overwatch with wall of death automatically inflict D3 wounds on the charging unit.
Invisibility rules say enemy units can only fire snap shots at a target unit.
Wall of death rules explicitly say template weapons cannot fire snap shots.

So even though non-invisible units are automatically hit by wall of death overwatch, wall of death cannot be fired in the first place against invisible units that are charging because it's not a snap shot. So if they can't fire wall of death the target unit can't possibly be hit.

Unless you say that Wall of Death isn't a shooting attack at all, of course.

Tonberry7,
It is the Snap Shots Rule itself that prevents a Template Weapon from firing Snap Shots.
Wall of Death is simply underlining this fact when it mentions 'even though Template Weapons can not fire Snap Shots...' for some reason beyond my comprehension they felt the need to remind us where the Restriction preventing the Template Weapon from Firing was coming from.

Unit1126PLL,
It mentions firing a Weapon throughout the Rule, an action which generates shots.
Within a Rule only ever used when resolving the shooting attack known as Overwatch....

Invisibility wrote:Invisibility is a blessing that targets a single friendly unit within 24". Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit and in close combat will only hit models in it on To Hit rolls of a 6.

Snapshots wrote:Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

Overwatch wrote:Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots. Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch.

Wall of Death wrote:Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

I'd say that Overwatch is a special instance of Snapshots where Template weapons behave unique. Having to Snapshot while having to Snapshot doesn't change anything.

If you have the ability to Overwatch on full Ballistic Skill (or even at BS2), does Invisibility reduce that to BS1 again? I'd say no for the same reason - it's still "Overwatch Snapshot", so Overwatch specific rules apply - like Wall of Death.

Wall of Death is automatic hits. Automatic hits automatically hit units, even Invisible units. Hammer of Wrath works on them too.

A blast marker automatically hits the target unit if it does not scatter. Same with a template which we all know does not scatter.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A blast marker automatically hits the target unit if it does not scatter. Same with a template which we all know does not scatter.

A blast cant target an invisible unit.

A template cant fire snap shots. Invisible units can only shot at with snap shots

 jokerkd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A blast marker automatically hits the target unit if it does not scatter. Same with a template which we all know does not scatter.

A blast cant target an invisible unit.

A template cant fire snap shots. Invisible units can only shot at with snap shots

Exactly.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
A blast marker automatically hits the target unit if it does not scatter. Same with a template which we all know does not scatter.

A blast cant target an invisible unit.

A template cant fire snap shots. Invisible units can only shot at with snap shots

Exactly.

But the situation in question is during Overwatch, and template weapons have a way to deal damage during Overwatch snapshooting - this is not taken away.

Except it is, because another special rule is over-riding it.

An ability to fire the weapon in overwatch and hit automatically is running up against a rule that requires weapons fired at this specific target to be snap shot.

Yes, WoD allows the flamer to fire overwatch, and to hit automatically.

But Invisibility doesn't care that WoD hits automatically. To fire a weapon at an invisible target, you have to fire Snap Shots.

Flamers can not fire snap shots, and WoD doesn't change that.

 insaniak wrote:
Except it is, because another special rule is over-riding it.

An ability to fire the weapon in overwatch and hit automatically is running up against a rule that requires weapons fired at this specific target to be snap shot.

Yes, WoD allows the flamer to fire overwatch, and to hit automatically.

But Invisibility doesn't care that WoD hits automatically. To fire a weapon at an invisible target, you have to fire Snap Shots.

Flamers can not fire snap shots, and WoD doesn't change that.

As I said there is no "uber snapshot".

Unit A tries to charge unit b.
Unit B may overwatch and decides to do so.
Unit B must perform all shots as snapshots as per overwatch rules, and perform all shots as snapshots as per Invisibility rules.
Unit B fires regular weapons at BS1 and, since it is snapshotting during overwatch, is allowed to use the WoD special rule with Template weapons. You can't apply Snapshot to the WoD rule AGAIN.

How would you treat abilities that allow you to use a higher BS only during Overwatch (eg during Zone Mortalis games) versus an invisible unit? Do you use the higher BS or does the defender still snapshot on BS1?

nekooni wrote:

Unit B fires regular weapons at BS1 and, since it is snapshotting during overwatch, is allowed to use the WoD special rule with Template weapons. You can't apply Snapshot to the WoD rule AGAIN.

It's not a matter of the rule applying again. It's still in effect.

You're making the same mistake as those who suggest that deep striking models should be able to assault if they disembarked from an Assault vehicle.

A restriction that is imposed by two different special rules doesn't go away if only one of those rules is removed. You have to cancel both rules for the restriction to no longer apply.

WoD allows the weapon to fire Overwatch even though it can't snap fire, but it doesn't change the fact that the shot is not a Snap Shot.

Invisibility only allows you to fire snap shots at the target.

How would you treat abilities that allow you to use a higher BS only during Overwatch (eg during Zone Mortalis games) versus an invisible unit? Do you use the higher BS or does the defender still snapshot on BS1?

The higher BS would be fine, as Invisibility doesn't require BS1. Just Snap Shots. If you fire Snap Shots at BS2, they're still Snap Shots.

nekooni wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
Except it is, because another special rule is over-riding it.

An ability to fire the weapon in overwatch and hit automatically is running up against a rule that requires weapons fired at this specific target to be snap shot.

Yes, WoD allows the flamer to fire overwatch, and to hit automatically.

But Invisibility doesn't care that WoD hits automatically. To fire a weapon at an invisible target, you have to fire Snap Shots.

Flamers can not fire snap shots, and WoD doesn't change that.

As I said there is no "uber snapshot".

Unit A tries to charge unit b.
Unit B may overwatch and decides to do so.
Unit B must perform all shots as snapshots as per overwatch rules, and perform all shots as snapshots as per Invisibility rules.
Unit B fires regular weapons at BS1 and, since it is snapshotting during overwatch, is allowed to use the WoD special rule with Template weapons. You can't apply Snapshot to the WoD rule AGAIN.

you can apply the " can only fire snapshots" rule every time a weapon needs to be selected to make any attack against an invisible unit

Template weapons simply cannot ever make snap shots. nothing but snap shots may be fired at an invisible unit

How would you treat abilities that allow you to use a higher BS only during Overwatch (eg during Zone Mortalis games) versus an invisible unit? Do you use the higher BS or does the defender still snapshot on BS1?

Modifying the BS of a snapshot would work against invisible units as it would still be a snapshot.

Zone mortalis reaction fire would not work because it's an alternative to snap shots, though it's optional so you can still fire snap shots instead.

Edit: ninja'd

Removing the restriction preventing a Template from firing a Snap Shots would also allow it to fire a Snap Shot against the Invisible Unit.

That is why I don't rule out the possibility that Wall of Death is talking about modifying the Snap Shot Rule. The Authors through it was important to mention where the restriction preventing the Template Weapon from firing during Overwatch lies, within the Snap Shots Rule. One could try and argue that it is 'reminder' or 'redundant' text, but while that does happen from time to time it doesn't make 100% sense in this situation. If a Template Weapon using Wall of Death is not firing a Snap Shot, there is no reason to remind us what Snap Shots does. It also can not be redundant as the restriction wasn't 'in play' to begin with.

I can't even guess at what the Authors Intended with this Rule, thanks to that inclusion, so concluding that Wall of Death is "A," "B," or "C" appears to be problematic and premature.

 insaniak wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Unit B fires regular weapons at BS1 and, since it is snapshotting during overwatch, is allowed to use the WoD special rule with Template weapons. You can't apply Snapshot to the WoD rule AGAIN.

It's not a matter of the rule applying again. It's still in effect.

You're making the same mistake as those who suggest that deep striking models should be able to assault if they disembarked from an Assault vehicle.

A restriction that is imposed by two different special rules doesn't go away if only one of those rules is removed. You have to cancel both rules for the restriction to no longer apply.

WoD allows the weapon to fire Overwatch even though it can't snap fire, but it doesn't change the fact that the shot is not a Snap Shot.

Invisibility only allows you to fire snap shots at the target.

How would you treat abilities that allow you to use a higher BS only during Overwatch (eg during Zone Mortalis games) versus an invisible unit? Do you use the higher BS or does the defender still snapshot on BS1?

The higher BS would be fine, as Invisibility doesn't require BS1. Just Snap Shots. If you fire Snap Shots at BS2, they're still Snap Shots.

If WoD told you to ignore having to Snap Shot because of Overwatch, you'd still have to Snap Shot due to Invisibilty - that's basically what you're arguing, right? But that's not really what's going on.
*edit for clarification*An example of that would be a unit with Relentless shooting at an Invisible unit - they'd still have to Snap Shot.

Invisibility tells you to Snap Shot when shooting at invisible units.
Overwatch tells you to Snap Shot when shooting at any unit during Overwatch.
WoD tells you that instead of Snap Shot'ing during Overwatch, you roll a D3. It does not tell you to ignore what is written in Overwatch, it simply tells you to do something ELSE instead. It also does not tell you to make a shooting attack or anything of the like, so Snap Shot - which only affects those - doesn't matter.

According to your logic a Blast targetting another unit cannot hit an invisible unit, since you're again injecting your "but it has to be Snapshots" into the step where we determine how many hits were landed (by counting what is under the Blast template or by rolling a D3).

TLDR: There's a difference between "ignoring one restriction but not the other" and "doing something else instead".

JinxDragon wrote:
Removing the restriction preventing a Template from firing a Snap Shots would also allow it to fire a Snap Shot against the Invisible Unit.

It's not removing the restriction preventing it from firing snap shots. It's removing the restriction preventing it from firing overwatch despite not being able to fire snap shots

Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

nekooni wrote:


According to your logic a Blast targetting another unit cannot hit an invisible unit, since you're again injecting your "but it has to be Snapshots" into the step where we determine how many hits were landed (by counting what is under the Blast template or by rolling a D3)..

a blast is fired at a target unit. if the blast lands on a separate unit, it does not become the target unit. Invisibility specifies the unit must be the target, so a scattered blast can indeed wound an invisible unit

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

Maybe to prevent people from arguing that, even though WoD tells you that - instead of snap shotting - you can roll a D3 with template weapons, they still can't shoot since they'd have to snap shot due to invisibility.

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

To stop a conflict? To stop confusion? GW can be pretty bad at doing both so I really couldn't say for sure.

The fact that the WoD rule points out that you are still unable to fire snap shots is all the RAW I need. as you know, RAI is a mystery in most scenarios worthy of a YMDC thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

Maybe to prevent people from arguing that, even though WoD tells you that - instead of snap shotting - you can roll a D3 with template weapons, they still can't shoot since they'd have to snap shot due to invisibility.

other way around

It can not be to prevent a conflict, if Snap Shots are not being used at all there can not be a conflict within the Snap Shots Rule...
It can not be to prevent confusion, by addressing Snap Shots in this situation the Authors have created the confusion...

Incompetence is always a good thing to put on the top of the list though!

 jokerkd wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

To stop a conflict? To stop confusion? GW can be pretty bad at doing both so I really couldn't say for sure.

The fact that the WoD rule points out that you are still unable to fire snap shots is all the RAW I need. as you know, RAI is a mystery in most scenarios worthy of a YMDC thread


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Then why mention Snap Shots at all?
Permission to Fire Overwatch would have been enough.

Maybe to prevent people from arguing that, even though WoD tells you that - instead of snap shotting - you can roll a D3 with template weapons, they still can't shoot since they'd have to snap shot due to invisibility.

other way around

OK, maybe it's because I'm not a native English speaker, but how do you get that from this sentence?

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

To me this line reads like this:

Template weapons can fire Overwatch (clarifying that this overrules Snap Shot rules). Instead of performing a regular shooting attack (which would be impossible due to Snap Shot) you automatically inflict D3 hits (and so on).

For what exact reason you have to Snap Shot during your Overwatch simply doesn't matter, otherwise that would have to be mentioned, wouldn't it?

What you guys are arguing is "Wall of Death says you cannot fire Snap Shots and Invisibility says you have to Snap Shot or you can't shoot at me". But Wall of Death tells you that you can do something INSTEAD and that still applies

Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

JinxDragon wrote:
Removing the restriction preventing a Template from firing a Snap Shots would also allow it to fire a Snap Shot against the Invisible Unit.

That is why I don't rule out the possibility that Wall of Death is talking about modifying the Snap Shot Rule. The Authors through it was important to mention where the restriction preventing the Template Weapon from firing during Overwatch lies, within the Snap Shots Rule. One could try and argue that it is 'reminder' or 'redundant' text, but while that does happen from time to time it doesn't make 100% sense in this situation. If a Template Weapon using Wall of Death is not firing a Snap Shot, there is no reason to remind us what Snap Shots does. It also can not be redundant as the restriction wasn't 'in play' to begin with.

I can't even guess at what the Authors Intended with this Rule, thanks to that inclusion, so concluding that Wall of Death is "A," "B," or "C" appears to be problematic and premature.

Yeah let's just modify the rules so you can win the argument... Brilliant.

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

But it is specifically allowed in Overwatch, and not just for any Snap Shot situations. So the question still applies.

Dozer Blades,
I never quoted the Wall of Death rule directly, so there is no way for me to have posted a modified version of this Rule....

Please inform me if this is not the actual Wall of Death Rule, as it is what was quoted here by another posted:
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

Should this be accurate, away from book but I was confident it was, we return to the fact this sub-Rule mentions Snap Shots when it talks about why the Template Weapon would not usually be able to fire Overwatch.

Unless you mean the Rule I did quote, the one that tells shots fired during Overwatch must be Snap Shots?

That's s what you're really saying though.

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

But it is specifically allowed in Overwatch, and not just for any Snap Shot situations. So the question still applies.

Are you saying we're no longer in Overwatch?

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

But it is specifically allowed in Overwatch, and not just for any Snap Shot situations. So the question still applies.

Are you saying we're no longer in Overwatch?

No. But there are more restrictions with Snap Shot which may cause the Wall of Death (Shooting) to not work.

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Is Wall of Death considered a Shooting Attack in this case or just an ability that does damage?

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, then it cannot be used against Invisible units doe to the restrictions of Snap Shots.

If WoD is just an ability that does damage, it is not affected by Snap Shot restrictions at all.

If WoD was affected by Snap Shot, it would never work, since you'd still be performing an Overwatch action and that tells you to Snap Shot even without Invisibility. It doesn't say "ignore Snap Shot from Overwatch" anywhere.

But it is specifically allowed in Overwatch, and not just for any Snap Shot situations. So the question still applies.

Are you saying we're no longer in Overwatch?

No. But there are more restrictions with Snap Shot which may cause the Wall of Death (Shooting) to not work.

Really? "May"? While the rules literally say otherwise?

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots

nekooni wrote:
Really? "May"? While the rules literally say otherwise?

Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots

From Snap Shots:

WoD does not override all Snap Shot conditions, just Overwatch.

nekooni wrote:
What you guys are arguing is "Wall of Death says you cannot fire Snap Shots and Invisibility says you have to Snap Shot or you can't shoot at me".

Not quite. What we're arguing is "Wall of Death isn't a Snap Shot and Invisibility says you have to Snap Shot or you can't shoot at me".

If WoD is something that happens instead of Snap Shooting, then that right there is your proof that it isn't a Snap Shot, and so can not happen against something that specifically requires Snap Shots.

Charistoph wrote:
WoD does not override all Snap Shot conditions, just Overwatch.

WoD doesn't override any Snap Shot conditions, it changes what you do when you Snap Shot with Template Weapons during Overwatch.

insaniak wrote:If WoD is something that happens instead of Snap Shooting, then that right there is your proof that it isn't a Snap Shot, and so can not happen against something that specifically requires Snap Shots.

That's a REALLY strange way of reading the Invisibility rule. It is not a "requirement" for the shooter, it simply tells you that the enemy targeting you has to Snap Shot. That's not the same thing as saying "No attack may be made that isn't a Snap Shot".

Your arguments are to interpret Invisibility in a way that I'd not even call "super-strict" since that's too tame: "If you do not Snap Shot you cannot hurt me" - and the other one is that while performing Overwatch, Snap Shot isn't Snap Shot in some cases, while the rules never state that they only work on a specific "type" of Snap Shot - which doesn't exist in the first place.
How you guys interpret Invisibility that strict while at the same time being that lax with how to use the WoD rule is beyond me.

But since this isn't going anywhere useful apparently: Please, continue without me.

nekooni wrote:
WoD doesn't override any Snap Shot conditions, it changes what you do when you Snap Shot with Template Weapons during Overwatch.

No, it doesn't, because you can't snap shoot with templates.

WoD is a specific allowance to fire Overwatch despite not being able to snap fire.

That's a REALLY strange way of reading the Invisibility rule. It is not a "requirement" for the shooter, it simply tells you that the enemy targeting you has to Snap Shot.

How is that not a requirement for the shooter?

Your arguments are to interpret Invisibility in a way that I'd not even call "super-strict" since that's too tame: "If you do not Snap Shot you cannot hurt me"

Nope, that's not the argument.

Invisible models can potentially be hurt by things that don't snap shoot (like a scattering blast, for example)... you just can't fire at them (ie: target them with a weapon) unless you are firing snap shots.

- and the other one is that while performing Overwatch, Snap Shot isn't Snap Shot in some cases, while the rules never state that they only work on a specific "type" of Snap Shot - which doesn't exist in the first place.

Sorry, but I'm not even sure what you're saying here.

He seems to think that overwatch=snap shots. Anything shot during overwatch is a snap shot despite WoD stating that you can fire overwatch without it being a snap shot.

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
WoD does not override all Snap Shot conditions, just Overwatch.

WoD doesn't override any Snap Shot conditions, it changes what you do when you Snap Shot with Template Weapons during Overwatch.

It overrides the Snap Shooting condition during Overwatch not allowing a specific automatically hitting Weapon from firing.

However if it is still considered a Shooting Attack, it does not override Invisibility's Snap Shot condition. If it is not a Shooting Attack, then it ignores that connection, too.

OP: I just want to point out the mod anddcm arguing it doesn't work play, armies who have access to invisibility, armor saves of 2+, and no D flamers.

Isnaik, I'm glad you're willing to allow people to flame you, since it's obvious that the rule should work that way.

As to the rules themselves,

Can I fire Overwatch? Yes, but I will be doing it by inflicting D3 hits per template weapon I have.

Can I fire Snap Shots? No, but I'm inflicting D3 hits per WoD, so I don't care.

But don't you have to Snap Shoot at me!? Nah, I'm fine with dealing my D3 instead of making a ranged attack which I cannot make because I'm using template weapons.

FratHammer wrote:
OP: I just want to point out the mod anddcm arguing it doesn't work play, armies who have access to invisibility, armor saves of 2+, and no D flamers.

I also play armies that don't... And have never used Invisibility. So not really sure what your point is here.

I also pointed out earlier in the thread that this is a situation where I'm happy to ignore the RAW as it makes more sense to allow WoD to work here.

It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.

FratHammer wrote:
OP: I just want to point out the mod anddcm arguing it doesn't work play, armies who have access to invisibility, armor saves of 2+, and no D flamers.

Isnaik, I'm glad you're willing to allow people to flame you, since it's obvious that the rule should work that way.

I also play armies matching that description and, like insaniak, i would allow WoD against invisible units. Just like i allow ICs to add their mastery level to a BoP unit that they join. Just because RAW is silly and we're willing to house rule these things, doesn't change the RAW

As to the rules themselves,

Can I fire Overwatch? Yes, but I will be doing it by inflicting D3 hits per template weapon I have.

Can I fire Snap Shots? No, but I'm inflicting D3 hits per WoD, so I don't care.

But don't you have to Snap Shoot at me!? Nah, I'm fine with dealing my D3 instead of making a ranged attack which I cannot make because I'm using template weapons.

Where does it say that you're not making a ranged attack? A template attack is a ranged attack.
All you are told is not to measure the range

I play Eldar and I'm with Insaniak on this one.
Wall of Death allows a template weapon to be fired during Overwatch with a new method of generating hits. Nothing in the rule indicates that it is a snap shot. In fact the wording seems to indicate that it is NOT a snapshot, because it reiterates that templates cannot be snap fired. Because Invisible units cannot be fired at by anything but snap shots, I find myself siding with the "no wall of death against invisible units" decision.

Joker, if I generate automatic hits, where are those defined as ranged attacks?
By Overwatch? I cannot fire Overwatch. I am instead allowed to generate d3 hits, no template is used, I merely must possess a template weapon.

Bojazz, and I agree with isnaik when he says being charged is the correct time to light up those flame throwers. But I disagree that they are useless.

You ARE able to fire overwatch though. The wall of death rule literally begins with "Template weapons can fire Overwatch". In fact it also says you only generate D3 hits IF you fire Overwatch.

Just because you're using a different method of generating hits doesn't mean you're not firing Overwatch.

Bojazz wrote:
You ARE able to fire overwatch though. The wall of death rule literally begins with "Template weapons can fire Overwatch". In fact it also says you only generate D3 hits IF you fire Overwatch.

Just because you're using a different method of generating hits doesn't mean you're not firing Overwatch.

The issue being that you are using permission for one thing to override the restriction of another. Kind of like using PotMS to shoot a Zoomer at full BS.

If WoD is a Shooting Attack, it has no power to override any other Snap Shot restriction than Overwatch's. If it specifically addressed all Snap Shots, it would be fine, but automatically hitting Shooting Attacks cannot be fired as Snap Shots.

I agree entirely Charistoph, I wasn't claiming permission to fire Overwatch against invisibility. I was just pointing out that Wall of Death is a shooting attack, in response to Frathammer's post asking where Wall of Death was stated as being a ranged attack, because he didn't think it counted as overwatch.

It's Overwatch, which I have expired permission to automatically deal wounds with. I don't see where your snap shot rule applies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess let me try again now that my brain is awake.

Am I allowed to fire Overwatch? Yes. Then generate hits.

Where does your snap shot rule apply?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your answer, I can only be targeted by snap shots.

My response, I am allowed to Overwatch even though I am not allowed to snap shoot. Says so right in WOD.

Can I snap shoot? No, can I Overwatch and generate d3 wounds, yes.

FratHammer, in order to generate WoD wounds, you must first be allowed to fire the weapon.

Can Template weapons fire Snap Shots? No.
Can Template weapons fire Overwatch? Yes, even though normally it cannot.

You have one rule saying yes, and one rule saying no. Therefore it is not allowed. Just like disembarking from a vehicle with the Assault Vehicle special rule does not allow you to ignore any other restrictions that prevent a unit from charging.

Another example of two restrictions, and only one being overridden:
- A Fire Prism that jinked last turn must snap fire.
- A Fire Prism that moved flat out must snap fire.
- A Crystal Targeting Matrix allows the Fire Prism to fire one weapon at full BS after moving flat out. This does not grant it permission to fire at full BS after jinking even if it moves flat out.

Similarly:

- Overwatching makes you snap fire
- Firing at an Invisible unit makes you snap fire
- Wall of Death allows template weapons to fire overwatch even though they can't snapfire. This does not allow them to ignore the snap firing restriction from Invisibility.


Two restrictions, only one being overridden.

Personally, I'd say roll off. It's a case of automatically hits under one rule, and cannot target under the other. Similar issue came up when my invisible Gk company master (only hit on 6) challenged Kharn (always hits on 2+). Wall of death is listed as an alternative to snap firing, so although I completely appreciate the argument against allowing it, I think that there is enough ambiguity in the language to defer to the roll off.

"even though template weapons cannot normally fire snap shots"
Is then being what? Disregarded?

FratHammer wrote:
"even though template weapons cannot normally fire snap shots"
Is then being what? Disregarded?

No, it's most certainly being considered. It's the proof that WoD can not be used against Invisibility, because it is not a snap shot.

The "can fire overwatch" that prefaces "even though template weapons cannot normally fire snap shots" is important there. It means the line you're quoting is in reference to them being able to fire overwatch. It doesn't allow them to ignore ALL sources of snap shooting requirements. Only those imposed by Overwatching. Other sources forcing snap shots (such as invisibility) are not negated. Just like in all the other scenarios we've mentioned (potms, crystal targeting matrix, etc), a permission to ignore a restriction from one source, does not give permission to ignore that restriction from all sources.

FratHammer wrote:
"even though template weapons cannot normally fire snap shots"
Is then being what? Disregarded?

If that was an actual quote from the rule, the word "normally" could indeed suggest that you are firing snap shots.

But the rule actually reads:

even though they cannot fire Snap Shots.

I guess I see permissions differently. In this case one overriding another.

Declare a charge against burnaboys.
They cannot snap fire.
They cannot make a normal Overwatch.
They can Overwatch regardless.
They deal d3 wounds.

Yall are arguing that
Declare charge.
Cannot snap fire.

I believe you're wrong.

And where does Wall of Death override the restriction for Invisibility to require the unit to fire Snap Shots? You've stated yourself in that post that Wall of Death is not a Snap Shot, so why are you able to use it?

FratHammer wrote:
I guess I see permissions differently. In this case one overriding another.

Declare a charge against burnaboys.
They cannot snap fire.
They cannot make a normal Overwatch.
They can Overwatch regardless.
They deal d3 wounds.

Yall are arguing that
Declare charge.
Cannot snap fire.

I believe you're wrong.

Not quite.

Here is the process we are presenting:
Declare a charge against burnaboys.
They cannot normally snap fire.
They cannot make a normal Overwatch.
They can fire in Overwatch regardless with Wall of Death.
They attempt to fire Templates to automatically Hit with D3 Hits.
Invisibility Check occurs and forces a Snap Shot which denies automatically hitting weapons from being used.

If one permission to take an action in a specific scenario overrides all restrictions for that action, then that means I can shoot at an invisible zooming flyer using full ballistic skill after I've jinked and moved flat out so long as I have a crystal targeting matrix, right? My fire prisms just got better...

Wall of Death works against Invisibility.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death works against Invisibility.

And the reasoning behind that is...?

Wall of Death:
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

Overrides Invisibility requirement to only fire snap shots at an Invisible unit.

Same thing as Marker Lights.

Pretty basic logic, really.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death:
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

Overrides Invisibility requirement to only fire snap shots at an Invisible unit.

Same thing as Marker Lights.

Pretty basic logic, really.

I only see the one for Overwatch. I do not see any notes for other Snap Shot conditions, much less Invisibility.

Markerlights specifically state Snap Shots in general, unlike Wall of Death's specific override. Not the best example to work with.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death:
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value.

Overrides Invisibility requirement to only fire snap shots at an Invisible unit.

How?

Nothing in the rule you just quoted states that it ignores the snap shot requirement for firing at an invisible target. All it does is allows the unit to fire Overwatch without being able to snap fire.

So it can fire Overwatch... but it is not snap firing. So the attack would be illegal against anything that requires the shooter to snap fire.

Invisiblity requires the unit to shoot apples at it.

Template weapons can't shoot apples.

Overwatch requires you to shoot apples.

Template weapons inflict D3 banana hits when firing Overwatch, instead of shooting Overwatch apples.

Banana hits still aren't apples.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Invisiblity requires the unit to shoot apples at it.

Template weapons can't shoot apples.

Overwatch requires you to shoot apples.

Template weapons inflict D3 banana hits when firing Overwatch, instead of shooting Overwatch apples.

Banana hits still aren't apples.

This made laugh....genuinely

Even more than vitae completely ignoring the whole thread

I thought it was a question regarding shooting Overwatch at Invisibility. Did I read that wrong?

Seems like you understood the question just fine, but skipped over the discussion that came afterwards. Your post didn't address any of the arguments presented against WoD working against invisible units.

vitae_drinker wrote:
I thought it was a question regarding shooting Overwatch at Invisibility. Did I read that wrong?

Not at all, but that's beside the point when you're still claiming Wall of Death's automatic (banana) hits works against an effect allowing only Snap Shots (apples) to be fired at the target unit.

Basically, regular Overwatch works against Invisibility just fine, because it's resolved as Snap Shots. Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

Even more importantly, it cannot be Snap Shot due to its autohit nature, except where it is explicitly allowed, i.e. Overwatch alone.

Charistoph wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

Even more importantly, it cannot be Snap Shot due to its autohit nature, except where it is explicitly allowed, i.e. Overwatch alone.

Not sure what you're trying to say here... Overwatch is the only time WoD is used, and it isn't allowed to snap fire on Overwatch. WoD is very explicitly not a Snap Shot.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
I thought it was a question regarding shooting Overwatch at Invisibility. Did I read that wrong?

Not at all, but that's beside the point when you're still claiming Wall of Death's automatic (banana) hits works against an effect allowing only Snap Shots (apples) to be fired at the target unit.

Basically, regular Overwatch works against Invisibility just fine, because it's resolved as Snap Shots. Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

Not at all what I was saying, but way to be insulting.

Yes, it does work during OVERWATCH as it specifically overrides the other rules. Now take your bananas and apples and choke on them.

As it's written you can't, but it doesn't really make sense. If you see enough of the Invisible unit to fire snap shots at it, isn't that the time you really want to fill the area with flamer templates and a mortar barrage?

Charistoph wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
You ARE able to fire overwatch though. The wall of death rule literally begins with "Template weapons can fire Overwatch". In fact it also says you only generate D3 hits IF you fire Overwatch.

Just because you're using a different method of generating hits doesn't mean you're not firing Overwatch.

The issue being that you are using permission for one thing to override the restriction of another. Kind of like using PotMS to shoot a Zoomer at full BS.

Except that PotMS works completely different to WoD. It doesn't even mention Snap Shots, it simply tells you (indirectly) to not Snap Shot for one specific reason for one weapon. And WoD doesn't specify what kind of "Snap Shot source" you override, you simply override Snap Shot.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Not at all what I was saying, but way to be insulting.

I'm sorry you felt it insulting, but that's exactly what you said:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death works against Invisibility.

You see?

Yes, it does work during OVERWATCH as it specifically overrides the other rules.

I don't think "specifically" means what you think it does. For it to specifically override the other rules, it would need to... well, specify those rules and say they're overridden.

But it doesn't.

Now take your bananas and apples and choke on them.

You certainly seem to be getting a little over-excited about a discussion on the rules of a game of plastic toy soldiers. There's no need to get wound up.

Thing is, it doesn't make sense. If a guy with a lasrifle can try to shoot at the unit, he would be able to do the same with a flamer. That said, a flamer can't target an invisible unit in the shooting phase, so based on that there is no reason why they should be able to in overwatch. There is no making clear sense either way. Hence the rule to roll off.

 JamesY wrote:
Thing is, it doesn't make sense. If a guy with a lasrifle can try to shoot at the unit, he would be able to do the same with a flamer.

Indeed. For that very reason, it makes no sense that blasts and templates are excluded from being able to snap fire.

This is just a corner that GW painted themselves into as a result of that exclusion.

Landdavi wrote:
I recently charged an invisibility unit into a unit of Eldar wraiths with d-sycthes. I was thinking he needed 6s to hit me until he picked up the dice to roll 5 D3 "D" hits. Oooops ---- I knew instantly, I had made a mistake or did I? The wall of death rule says you can fire overwatch even though they are templates. The invisibility blessing says the enemy can only fire snap shots. The wall of death is not a snap shot. How do you play this? Thanks.

I'm sure this debate will go on, but in my local meta, we play it the way you guys did. Templates can fire overwatch using the wall of death rules, which, I believe count as snap shots. The reason templates can fire wall of death when force to snap fire by other means, is it has to be in regard to the overwatch action.

insaniak wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Wall of Death, while a form of Overwatch, still isn't a Snap Shot, so doesn't work.

Even more importantly, it cannot be Snap Shot due to its autohit nature, except where it is explicitly allowed, i.e. Overwatch alone.

Not sure what you're trying to say here... Overwatch is the only time WoD is used, and it isn't allowed to snap fire on Overwatch. WoD is very explicitly not a Snap Shot.

The only restriction lifted by Wall of Death is the inability for an automatically hitting weapon to fire in Overwatch, a Snap Shot condition.

Invisibility requires that you Snap Shot when firing at the unit. Wall of Death is an Attack that is fired and automatically hits. Snap Shot conditions normally prevent weapons that automatically hit from being fired.

I wasn't trying to counter Mr. Shine, but shore up what he was saying.

nekooni wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
You ARE able to fire overwatch though. The wall of death rule literally begins with "Template weapons can fire Overwatch". In fact it also says you only generate D3 hits IF you fire Overwatch.

Just because you're using a different method of generating hits doesn't mean you're not firing Overwatch.

The issue being that you are using permission for one thing to override the restriction of another. Kind of like using PotMS to shoot a Zoomer at full BS.

Except that PotMS works completely different to WoD. It doesn't even mention Snap Shots, it simply tells you (indirectly) to not Snap Shot for one specific reason for one weapon. And WoD doesn't specify what kind of "Snap Shot source" you override, you simply override Snap Shot.

Actually it does for the case being presented, that of using permission in one case to override a restriction with another case. In this case, Power of the Machine Spirit does not provide Skyfire, nor anything resembling it, so using its permission to fire one weapon at full BS does not override the Hard To Hit's specific requirement of Skyfire to bypass.

Wall of Death can be used in Overwatch, but nothing is stated in it being able to be used in any other Snap Shot condition. So, Wall of Death against Invisible units will not work because it is not cleared to be fired in any Snap Shot conditions, even though it is trying to be used against them in Overwatch.

JamesY wrote:Thing is, it doesn't make sense. If a guy with a lasrifle can try to shoot at the unit, he would be able to do the same with a flamer. That said, a flamer can't target an invisible unit in the shooting phase, so based on that there is no reason why they should be able to in overwatch. There is no making clear sense either way. Hence the rule to roll off.

When 40K starts making sense, you will see this section of the forum die.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Not at all what I was saying, but way to be insulting.

I'm sorry you felt it insulting, but that's exactly what you said:

vitae_drinker wrote:
Wall of Death works against Invisibility.

You see?

Yes, it does work during OVERWATCH as it specifically overrides the other rules.

I don't think "specifically" means what you think it does. For it to specifically override the other rules, it would need to... well, specify those rules and say they're overridden.

But it doesn't.

Now take your bananas and apples and choke on them.

You certainly seem to be getting a little over-excited about a discussion on the rules of a game of plastic toy soldiers. There's no need to get wound up.

Invisibility requires you to fire snap shots, yes? Well, Wall of Death specifically states that even though they cannot fire snap shots, Template weapons can still fire overwatch (overriding the requirement of Invisibility). And then it tells you to generate D3 hits instead.

So yes, Wall of Death specifically overrides Invisibility.

Now stop spending so much time staring at your fruits and berries and start reading the rules.

Specific wording would need to address Invisibility directly... it is a far stretch to say it specifically over-writes Invisibility when it makes no mention of Invisibility.

I still entertain the idea that the Authors may have intended for the Template to be a Snap Shot, but not because there is something specifically stating so. I only find it very unusual for the Authors to inform us why Templates can not fire Overwatch, highlighting it is because they can not fire Snap Shots, while giving us permission to fire Template Weapons during Overwatch. That is circumstantial evidence at best, so without further proof from the Authors themselves I have only been able to flag it as an unusual curiosity and not as a Rule modifying clause....

vitae_drinker wrote:
Invisibility requires you to fire snap shots, yes? Well, Wall of Death specifically states that even though they cannot fire snap shots, Template weapons can still fire overwatch (overriding the requirement of Invisibility). And then it tells you to generate D3 hits instead.

So yes, Wall of Death specifically overrides Invisibility.

Invisibility nor any general Snap Shots are not mentioned as being allowed by Wall of Death. All is mentioned is the ability to fire in Overwatch.

See? No mention of Invisibility. Nor any mention of any other Snap Shot conditions. All that it overrides is the Overwatch Snap Shot condition. Not moving while Heavy, not firing while Stunned, not shooting at a Hard To Hit target (if they could even Charge), much less shooting at an Invisible unit. All is mentioned is bypassing the Overwatch condition.

Does Assault Vehicle allow Space Marines to Charge out of a Drop Pod after Deep Striking? No. Assault Vehicle only overrides the restriction against Charging after disembarking, not Charging after coming from Deep Strike or Reserves.

vitae_drinker wrote:
Now stop spending so much time staring at your fruits and berries and start reading the rules.

Kettle, meet coffee pot.

I believe in these cases that the rules are meant to take the path that is the least complicated, normal and expected.

Is it normal for templates to fire overwatch even though it is normally reserved for snap shots? yes

Taken at face value, the least complicated representation of this rule is
invisibility = snapshots, overwatch = snapshots, templates are allowed to overwatch
So that is a yes for least complicated route

I think the argument for RAW templates are never snapshots, even during overwatch, and so cannot hit invisiblity has the big problem that it is not stated clearly and you have to go back a forth between the rules trying to show logically how this works and why this ignores the WoD rule.

I guess what I am trying to say is - invisibility ignoring WoD is actually a made up rule not an actual written rule

vitae_drinker wrote:
Invisibility requires you to fire snap shots, yes?

Yes.

Well, Wall of Death specifically states that even though they cannot fire snap shots, Template weapons can still fire overwatch

Correct. So WoD fires Overwatch... but does not fire Snap Shots.

So, when you try to fire your WoD Overwatch at the invisible unit, are you firing Snap Shots?

So yes, Wall of Death specifically overrides Invisibility.

WoD doesn't mention invisibility at all. So pretty much by definition can't be specifically over-riding it.

Addressing something specifically requires addressing that thing specifically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

I think the argument for RAW templates are never snapshots, even during overwatch, and so cannot hit invisiblity has the big problem that it is not stated clearly and you have to go back a forth between the rules trying to show logically how this works and why this ignores the WoD rule.

You're making that sound a lot more complicated than it actually is.

The RAW breaks down like this -

1 - You can only fire at Invisible units with snap shots.
2 - Template weapons can't fire snap shots.

Done.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I believe in these cases that the rules are meant to take the path that is the least complicated, normal and expected.

Is it normal for templates to fire overwatch even though it is normally reserved for snap shots? yes

Taken at face value, the least complicated representation of this rule is
invisibility = snapshots, overwatch = snapshots, templates are allowed to overwatch
So that is a yes for least complicated route

I think the argument for RAW templates are never snapshots, even during overwatch, and so cannot hit invisiblity has the big problem that it is not stated clearly and you have to go back a forth between the rules trying to show logically how this works and why this ignores the WoD rule.

So, No + Yes = Yes for a least complicated route? My child-self has a sore bum for trying that logic with my parents.

It's more complicated trying to get a rule that bypasses one specific condition to bypass another condition that is never addressed by a rule, just because those conditions share an effect.

To put it another way, Markerlights address Snap Shots, the second half of "condition=effect" you used above, i.e. Snap Shots, whether Overwatch, Invisibility, Heavy Weapons, etc. Wall of Death addresses the first half of "condition=effect", i.e. Overwatch, not the second half, i.e. Snap Shots. Overwatch and Invisibility are not the same, so Wall of Death does not address Invisibility.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
I guess what I am trying to say is - invisibility ignoring WoD is actually a made up rule not an actual written rule

The problem is that people are saying that Invisibility ignores Wall of Death, and so allows Wall of Death to process. Invisibility does not ignore Wall of Death. Wall of Death does not ignore Invisibility.

 insaniak wrote:

The RAW breaks down like this -

1 - You can only fire at Invisible units with snap shots.
2 - Template weapons can't fire snap shots.

Done.

I think the RAW is a bit more long winded than that:

Template equipped unit wants to shoot at invisible unit.

Is it the shooting phase?

Yes - invis can only be fired at with snap shots, template can only fire snapshots so it is not allowed

Is it during overwatch?

Yes - Invisibility - "Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit"
- under Resolve Overwatch - "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots. Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch."
- under Wall of Death - "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template
weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal
Strength and AP value."

So lets break it down:

WoD confirms that the template is 'firing' Overwatch at the 'charging unit'

Overwatch tells us to treat it like a normal shooting attack for all rules purposes.

Overwatch tells us only snap shots are allowed.

Invisibility tells us only snap shots are allowed.

WoD tells us - "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

SO THE BIG QUESTION - Does this statement allow it to fire at this point?

No, because it can't fire snap shots.

You're allowed to fire Overwatch generally, because Wall of Death says that you can even though you can't fire snap shots.

You're not allowed to fire Overwatch at an Invisible target specifically, because your Overwatch in this situation is not comprised of snap shots.

So you're saying there would need to be the phrase "Template weapons can fire at a unit affected by Invisibility during Overwatch, even though it cannot fire snap shots"

But....the BRB is unaware of the Invisibility rule since it is written on a card that is an extension of the rules.

And writing specifically on the Invisibilty card that WoD is allowed - seems odd that they would put it there?

It just seems out of place that the Inivisibility card would call out WoD specifically to address this issue.

Invisibility is in the BRB, though, with all the other generic Psychic Disciplines.

And the Invisibility card and its entry in the BRB don't mention WoD at all, so I'm not sure what you are talking about...

 chaosmarauder wrote:
So you're saying there would need to be the phrase "Template weapons can fire at a unit affected by Invisibility during Overwatch, even though it cannot fire snap shots"

That would work.

A less specific statement that allows WoD to be fired at targets that can only be fired at with snap shots would also do the job without having to reference Invisibility specifically.


WoD currently doesn't have any such statement. It just allows you to fire Overwatch without firing Snap Shots. So you're not firing Snap Shots, so can not fire at anything that requires you to fire Snap Shots, whether it's Overwatch or not.