In your opinion, what are the top 10 shooty units in all of 40k 1 being the best 10 being the worst (of the best)
you can take into account "for the points" so for example mek guns being 30 points for kustom mega kannon and ammo runts to reroll the gets hot would be #1 for me right now
I'm probably not thinking of obvious examples but this is what I would argue.
From a outlook of what they do when they shoot, I would put Scatbikes (maybe), Flyrant and Warp Spiders lower on the list. The scatbikes have a lot of firepower while the spiders only have 2 shots a piece but both really shine in their mobility, Flyrants only have 12 shots but again between mobility and being a flyer it gets a boost in game. Also i would have thought that the normal fire warrior should be up there because you can't get much better than a 30 inch rapid fire strength 5 gun for the points.
And for some personal bias my number one shooting unit would be Dark Reapers because they have a greater range than scatbikes (but lose to guess what? mobility) are base cheaper than scattbikes but only have 2 str 5 shots compared to 4 str 6 shots, but those shots are at ap 3 with ignoring jink. Then you can give them missile shots for more points.
I don't know every shooting unit in the game, but here are my picks for the top 10 that I know of:
10: Leman Russ Punisher with Knight Commander Pask: This guy puts out a silly number of shots, and usually will have Preferred Enemy to reroll those shots.
9: Ork Warbikers: Their guns are pretty strong, and they are very mobile. If they are Nobz instead of regular Boyz, they are quite durable.
8: Eldar Wraithguard: Strength D template weapons. 'nuff said. The range limitation is what keeps them from being higher on this list.
7: Necron Warriors: Their weapons can wound/glance anything in the game regardless of toughness/AV. This is huge, especially from basic troops.
6: Chaos Space Marine Heldrake: The infamous Hellturkey can roast Space Marines easily. Its weapon is short-ranged since it is a template, but torrent makes up for that. It is also very durable due to being a flyer, AV12, and having a 5+ save even without jinking.
5: Tau Broadside Battlesuits: These put out a crazy number of shots if they take HYMPs, and they are tough to kill, especially in good cover. If they have a Buffmander attached, they get even meaner.
4: Tyranid Flyrant: Large number of high-strength shots, and all the benefits of being a Flying Monstrous Creature.
3: Tau KV128 Stormsurge: This murder machine puts out an insane number of shots, and despite being only T6 is difficult to bring down mainly due to being a Gargantuan Creature. Deploy the anchors for twice the hilarity!
2: Space Marine Centurion Devastators with Gravcannons: They are deadliest when combined with psykers in the infamous CentStar, but even without it they put out a TON of firepower.
1: Eldar Scatterlaser Jetbikes: The most maneuverable unit in the game, with very strong guns. These and Wraithknights are the reason people hate on Eldar so much.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: SOOOOOOO did we just witness somebody say that Scatterbikes should be lower on a list in terms of shootiness for the points?
One I said maybe, two I stand by what I said. When looking at the shooting and nothing else the scatbikes are good but not as bad as what they really are on the battlefield. A War Walker pays 3pts more per scatterlaser than a squad of of bikes. So a squad of 4 is 12 points cheaper than 2 walkers but they put out the same number of shots. being immune to str 3 and less shooting, no moral tests, and having the 5++ over jinking with the same number of wounds/hull points but being prone to being blown up in one shot is worth the points imho. But the reason you never see people going on about flooding the board with walkers over bikes is because the bikes destroy with their mobility.
2 36" D-weapons, along with 2 Scatter Lasers or such, all of which can fire at a different target, on a platform that can move 12" each turn and is nigh-invulnerable beyond Grav or D-weapons. Also, unlike many other good shooty units, trying to tie it down in melee is usually a death-sentence for the units involved.
I personally think that kataphron destroyers should be on someones's list, they fire 6 grav shots each and are basically relentless so no salvo problems
I would never claim to know every unit or codex.... But one shooty unit that has performed extremely well for me is a Dark Angels Command Squad with 5 Grav guns and the Sacred Standard. The Sacred Standard grants you relentless and counter attack, so you're always firing this 5 grav guns as if you didn't move... In addition, Dark Angels have their overwatch shenanigans... In a CAD that unit shoots overwatch as BS2 (hitting on 5s and 6s) ... But in a Lion's Blade Detachment they shoot overwatch at full BS!!! Add in counter attack from the Sacred Standard and people don't want to charge that unit either... I typically make 1 guy an apothecary as well for a 5+ FNP survivablity upgrade.
So basically, in a Lions Blade Detachment- you've got 5 grav guns with relentless, counter attack, feel no pain and shooting overwatch at normal BS... That's a pretty shooty unit.
vipoid wrote: Surprised the Wraithknight hasn't made any lists.
2 36" D-weapons, along with 2 Scatter Lasers or such, all of which can fire at a different target, on a platform that can move 12" each turn and is nigh-invulnerable beyond Grav or D-weapons. Also, unlike many other good shooty units, trying to tie it down in melee is usually a death-sentence for the units involved.
But the Wraithknight is bad (Dman137, 2015).
Yeah, I missed a few obvious choices. I normally see CC Wraithknights, the 5++ really helps it at times.
Come to think of it, Black Knights over Fire Dragons. I'm going to have to revisit it at some point.
a couple things.
the buffmander. while not a shooting unit per se, it can make its attached squad so much more deadly. even worse now with the Combined Firepower (either one) from the hunter contingent.
what was that gun on the ork stompas? the supa gatler? what was it, 6d6 shots that you could keep shooting with (admittedly at BS2) until it rolled all ones? not terribly effective, but I certainly feared going against it.
I agree with the stormsurge as well, with all possible readings of the rules.
I will also say anything in the tau books with access to target locks.
what else?
anyone remember weaken resolve? before the IG lost it, (and was a power used in the shooting phase,) great fun with it and the callidus ld flamer for lulz kills and psychic shriek.
Here is my list of the Top 10 Best Shooting unit in the game today:
Jy2's Top 10 Best Shooters
One term you will hear a lot from me is the cost per shot ratio (notated as pts/shot). Basically, what this means is how many points does it cost per shot for that unit. With this ratio, the lower it is, the better.
1. Scatterbikes. The most cost-efficient non-vehicle shooting unit in the game at 6.75 pts/shot and they pump out high quality BS4, S6 shots. It doesn’t hurt that the scatbike is also probably the fastest, ObSec troop unit in the game as well. If even one of these suckers survive, it can mean the difference between Victory or Defeat as it turbo-boosts onto an objective just before the game ends.
2. Devastator Centurions. One of the scariest shooters in the game. The centurion with Hurricane Bolters can pump out an incredible 7.27 pts/shot at Rapid-fire range, and they are threat to both infantry and tanks. Devastator Centurions are the main reason why Imperial armies have arguably the deadliest shooting deathstar build in the game.
3. Broadsides with High-Yield Missile Pods and Interceptor. One of the best shooters in the game on a highly durable platform, the Missile-side puts out an amazing 8.75 pts/shot. Moreover, they are highly accurate with Twin-linked shooting and with the help of Markerlights, can be even more accurate and deadly (with Ignores Cover). Also, Broadsides are one of 2 units in my Top 10 that can shoot you when you come in from Reserves. Their main drawbacks are the lack of any Invulnerable saves (against armies that can Ignore Cover), low Leadership that makes them vulnerable to LD-based attacks and the fact that they are not Relentless (unless you take a specific Tau formation).
4. Sicaran Battle Tank (Forgeworld). One of the best tanks in the Imperial arsenal, the Sicaran is also one of its best shooters as well. With Heavy Bolter sponsons, it puts out an impressive 10.33 pts/shot. But what makes it stand out even more is that 6 of those shots are Twin-linked, S6 Rending shots that ignore Jink saves. It’s also an incredibly resilient tank at AV F13/S12/R12 and can be made even harder to kill with some upgrades (Ignore meltas, 4+ save vs Haywire). It can be both anti-infantry (with Heavy Bolter sponsons) or anti-tank (with Lascannon sponsons and the Tank Hunter upgrade). Lastly, it is a fast vehicle so can move up to 6” and still fire all of its guns.
5. Flyrant with TL-Brainleech Devourers and Electroshock Grubs. While this guy isn’t the most incredible shooter (20 pts/shot makes him the least efficient shooter on my list), he is a reliable shooter with 12 Twin-linked BS4 S6 shots. Also, he is both a threat to infantry as well as other tanks (thanks to his Haywire template as well). But what makes the flyrant stand-out is all the little things he does. He is a huge force-multiplier for the Tyranid army with his Synapse and Psychic buffs. He can hit you no matter where you hide thanks to him being a Flying MC. He can hit both ground units and other flyers with equal accuracy. Finally, he is fairly durable due to being a FMC with the potential for FNP as well. While his shots are expensive, his accuracy and ability to hit both ground units and flyers helps to make his shooting actually more efficient than other units on this list with much lower costs/shot ratios.
6. Riptide. The riptide by itself is a respectable shooter. When it Novas up with its Heavy Burst Cannons, it can put out up to decent shooting at 11.25 pts/shot. And while not the most accurate shooter, its shooting becomes much more dangerous with the help of Markerlights. But what really sets this guy apart is twofold. First is its flexibility. You name it, the riptide can do it. Need Skyfire? Done. Need a large blast? You got it. Trouble with infantry? He can handle them. Tanks also. He can also shoot you when you come in from Reserves. Secondly is his durability. T6, 5W with a 2+ save and potentially 3++ Invulnerable with FNP? This guy is resilient as heck. Finally, he can shot you without needing to see you and is very mobile to boot.
7. Vulture (Forgeworld). An incredible shooter at 6.74 pts/shot on a fairly durable, AV12 flyer platform. Highly accurate as well with 20 Twin-linked shots as well as Strafing Run. Add Vector Dancer on top of that and this flyer becomes one of the more maneuverable flyers. You can’t really hide from it. It’s only drawbacks are that it is purely for anti-infantry and experienced players can take advantage of its flight path to avoid perhaps a turn of fire.
8. Warp Spiders. While these guys don’t put out a whole lot of shots, the shots that they do put out are quality shots. And at 9.5 pts/shot, they’re damn dangerous as well. With the potential for BS5 from formations and S6 shots that wound based on Initiative and Rending, these guys can hurt infantry, MC’s and light tanks as well. Their range may be short, but with a 2D6+6” Movement, Battle Focus and then a 2D6” Assault move, these guys can get into firing positions fairly easily and then get out of retalitorial strikes. And then there’s this annoying ability of theirs called Flickerjump….
9. Venom. Yes, the lowly Venom is actually a really good shooter. With 12 shots and at BS4, it is actually the most efficient shooting unit in the game at a blistering 5.42 pts/shot! Moreover, they come with a 5++ Invulnerable save, are pretty darn fast and can be ObSec as well. Their downsides? They are fragile and they can’t do anything to other tanks. But in terms of pure anti-infantry firepower, nothing beats the efficiency of the Venom.
10. Wyvern. This is the only blast-based unit in my Top 10. While one-dimensional, not much in the game beats the ability of the Wyvern to shred mass infantry and certainly nothing beats at its cost level. With the ability to Ignore Cover and re-roll wounds, the Wyvern is the best infantry horde-killer in the game currently for the price.
Honorable Mentions:
Black Knights – Resilient bastards with good assault capability and Twin-linked rapid-fire plasmas standard.
Crisis Suits – High firepower and good flexibility but somewhat expensive and fragile.
Fire Raptor – Very good shooting (11.84 pts/shot) on a very resilient flyer platform.
Kataphrons – The most efficient pure AP2 shooting in the game for their price.
Stormsurge – The best shooting Lord of War for under 400-pts.
I'd strongly disagree about the venom being in the top 10 shooty units.
Yes, it gets a lot of shots for its points. The problem is that those shots are really ineffective against the vast majority of targets, and which also can't even scratch AV10.
Contrast this with the Venom's horrible survivability (AV10 all round, open-topped, 2 HPs), and you'll see why Venom Spam is long dead as any kind of force to be feared.
vipoid wrote: I'd strongly disagree about the venom being in the top 10 shooty units.
Yes, it gets a lot of shots for its points. The problem is that those shots are really ineffective against the vast majority of targets, and which also can't even scratch AV10.
Contrast this with the Venom's horrible survivability (AV10 all round, open-topped, 2 HPs), and you'll see why Venom Spam is long dead as any kind of force to be feared.
Here is my reasoning for why the Venom belongs in my Top 10 list.
It's dirt cheap for what it does (55-pts for a gun boat) and it does it well due to BS4 (average of 8 hits). The purpose of the Venom isn't to hunt tanks (but if it could, I would probably rank it even higher than #9) - there are a lot of choices for AT in the army for that purpose - rather, it is to hunt down infantry. As a bonus, it fires poisoned shots so can even hurt MC's!
It can jink for 4+ cover but also has a 5++ Invuln against shots that ignore cover.
Most importantly, it is dirt cheap and easily spammable. Yeah it's fragile. Then again, so is the #1 choice on my list, the scatter bike. However, in contrast, you pay 405-pts for 60-shots for scatbikes. For the venom? Only 325-pts for the same number of shots. If you scale it up, 5 units of scatbikes (60-shots, 405-pts) can get you 6 venoms (72-shots, 390-pts) and change. And there you have your resiliency, which is in the volume of units. Yes, a lone venom by itself isn't very resilient. However, the price of its competitors can usually get you multiple venoms, thus giving your army resiliency through redundancy.
And then there are the intangibles, such as it is very fast, it's guns out-range a lot of other guns (which translates to more resiliency as it can stay out of range of many unit's shooting), it is a troops transport and the fact that it can be ObSec as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GentGiant wrote: Wow thanks jy2!! Awesome list I never knew about points per shot.. Thanks! If anyone else has a list they feel is top 10 please share
You're welcome.
There is no official points per shot stat. That is actually something I designed to gauge the approximate performance of various units in the game. However, it is by no means the definitive stat for shooty units. That is because it doesn't take into consideration BS, strength of the guns or Twin-linkage. Rather, it is more of an indicator just to estimate the effectiveness of shooty units.
Here is my reasoning for why the Venom belongs in my Top 10 list.
It's dirt cheap for what it does (55-pts for a gun boat) and it does it well due to BS4 (average of 8 hits).
It's actually 65pts, unless you're only taking one splinter cannon.
jy2 wrote: there are a lot of choices for AT in the army for that purpose
No, there aren't. Anti-tank is a huge problem for DE, and the abundance of weapons that can't scratch vehicles, nor be swapped out for weapons that can, is a serious problem.
jy2 wrote: rather, it is to hunt down infantry. As a bonus, it fires poisoned shots so can even hurt MC's!
But that's the point - it's not good at hunting infantry. Against marines, you have a vehicle with 12 long-range bolter shots. Any marine players here want to praise bolters?
Against IG, eldar and other T3 models, it's effectively firing AP5 lasgun shots.
If you're hunting infantry, you really don't want poison 4+.
I mean, these 12 shots you keep praising amount to 1.3 dead marines. Is that supposed to be good?
Most importantly, it is dirt cheap and easily spammable. Yeah it's fragile. Then again, so is the #1 choice on my list, the scatter bike.
But, as a transport, you can't call it spammable and then ignore the cost of the rather less useful units you have to buy to get it.
Also, whilst scatter bikes are fragile, they can move 2d6" in the assault phase to get back to safety. You also don't need to take passengers with terrible survivability and crap weapons to access them.
jy2 wrote: If you scale it up, 5 units of scatbikes (60-shots, 405-pts) can get you 6 venoms (72-shots, 390-pts) and change.
How are you taking 6 venoms without passengers? Or are you going unbound? In which case those Scatterbikes will be ObjSec, and your venoms won't be.
Moreover, have you actually done any math for this? I'm guessing not.
vs GEQ Venoms: 24
Scatterbikes: 27.7
vs MEQ Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 11.1
vs TEQ Venoms: 4
Scatterbikes: 5.6
vs T5 MEQ Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 8.9
vs T6 3+
Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 6.7
vs AV10
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 20hp
vs AV11
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 13.3hp
vs AV12
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 6.7hp
You'll notice that, despite your claim about the venom being dedicated anti-infantry, the Scatterbikes outperform them against every type of infantry. Literally the only target venoms are better against is T6 MCs. In exchange, the venoms can do nothing against AV10, whilst the Scatterbikes can harm anything up to AV12. They can kill 2 Chimeras, 4 Rhinos or 5 Jinking Venoms each turn. As in, they can wipe out basically your entire venom fleet in one round. I guess numbers aren't actually much of a defence after all - not when you're so ridiculously fragile.
Moreover, this is using your own massively biased scenario - where the venoms are taken without passengers. If you include the cost of Warriors, then suddenly you're looking at 105pts per venom, with a negligible increase in firepower or survivability. Shall we run the above numbers again and see if the venoms are even close to scatterbikes against non-vehicles?
Venoms were good back in 5th. What you seem to have missed is that the game has moved on since then, but venoms haven't. And, their firepower just isn't enough to keep them competitive - let alone put them in the top 10. It certainly doesn't justify their atrocious survivability, and their inability to harm vehicles is crippling. Gargantuan Creatures are the final nail in their coffin. Poison was supposed to be DE's defence against big creatures (as they lack Grav, Plasma, D-weapons or any equivalent), and is the one target against which Venoms should really shine. Except they don't. Because GCs were given virtual immunity to poison. So, they've traded any ability to harm vehicles for... nothing whatsoever.
^Real Space Raiders detachment gives you 6 fast attack slots so if you really want to you can take 6 of them without taking infantry first.
I've wiped marine players of varying flavour clean off the table plenty of times through massed poison shots and the Venom was definitely a large part of that. Not sure I'd say it was in the top 10 of the entire game but it's still a very good shooty unit.
Venoms also just got passed in efficiency by corsair cloud dancers. 25 points per splinter cannon, but on an even more mobile platform because it has the 12" move and gets to make an assault jump.
Imateria wrote: ^Real Space Raiders detachment gives you 6 fast attack slots so if you really want to you can take 6 of them without taking infantry first.
That's true, but most of your anti-tank is in FA - so if you just use those slots to spam poison weapons you're going to have real problems against any opponents with a lot of armour
I've wiped marine players of varying flavour clean off the table plenty of times through massed poison shots and the Venom was definitely a large part of that.
Our of interest, what does your list look like?
Imateria wrote: Not sure I'd say it was in the top 10 of the entire game but it's still a very good shooty unit.
I think it's still a decent shooty unit - just not versatile or durable enough to be in the top 10.
lessthanjeff wrote: Venoms also just got passed in efficiency by corsair cloud dancers. 25 points per splinter cannon, but on an even more mobile platform because it has the 12" move and gets to make an assault jump.
Good thing too - since Corsair Venoms are worse than DE ones.
Just for the sake of adding something different, what about Obliterators? The ability to pick the required weapon and in a 2+5++ package surely isn't to be sniffed at, and if you charge them make sure you finish them off as they also have power fists
Vipoid, you're not being fair. You're comparing a unit he put 9th to a unit he explicitly put 8 places above it, then pointing out one is better than the other. Scatterlasers are better then Venoms, but as a DE player you must agree that Venoms are quite reliable in the amount of wounds they put out. I only have 2 Venoms in my army, hiding my counter assault Incubi, but those 24 shots will yield 8 wounds like clockwork. Add objective secured, a 4+ jink save (I only jink against a weapon i suspect will kill him in a volly), 5+ invul and troop capacity you have a nice little unit. If Eldar could take a Venom, I'd bet you they would.
On the other hand shots per point ratio doesn't take into account the quality of the shot. But it's JY2's list so he can use the deciding factor how he likes.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Vipoid, you're not being fair. You're comparing a unit he put 9th to a unit he explicitly put 8 places above it, then pointing out one is better than the other.
Eh?
He was the one who made the comparison with Scatterbikes - I just did the math and showed that it was far less favourable than he was saying.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Scatterlasers are better then Venoms, but as a DE player you must agree that Venoms are quite reliable in the amount of wounds they put out. I only have 2 Venoms in my army, hiding my counter assault Incubi, but those 24 shots will yield 8 wounds like clockwork.
That's true. The problem is that those 8 wounds don't amount to much actual damage. And I say this as someone who runs 5 venoms.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Add objective secured, a 4+ jink save (I only jink against a weapon i suspect will kill him in a volly), 5+ invul and troop capacity you have a nice little unit.
That's true. Again though, I wasn't saying venoms were bad units - just that they really don't belong in the top 10.
I don't really see your argument that DE have trouble with armor lists.... my friends typical DE list has about 20 lances/blasters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And this is across his transports and 2 units of blasters
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is my list, written from my experiences. These are the units WITHOUT any form of psychic help/orders/buffs.
10. Soul Grinder / Russ - This was a tie for me, as they both are similar.. av13 is deceptively hard to take down, and battle cannons are usually ignored until they blow something off the table.
9. Fire Warriors - 9 pts for a 30" s5 rapid fire. Not bad at all. With buffs it gets even better but alone just good enough!
8. Land speeders dual bolters - 6 s5 36" .. one is ok.. two is oh.. and three is PLEASE NO! The ap4 and range helps these guys wipe infantry off the board, the range keeps them kiting and out of trouble.
7. Destroyers (? honestly forget the name... 6 grav shots each.. mechanicus) .. it is because of these guys that I have lost 3 riptides before my turn 1 against my friends NOVA list. OUCH!
6. Crisis suit - the specialization of this suit makes my list. It can fit any roll you need and does it well. (5.25 pts/s5 shot if your going with dual burst cannons, and that's cheaper then firewarriors)
5. Necron warriors - although limited to 24", they can wipe both troops and av targets alike, and are durable enough to get there.
4. Missle Broadside - Twin linked helps its lower BS3. combined with range and s7, ap4 wipes 50% of troops in game, and is effective at all but killing landraiders.
3. Dire avenger - I can't believe this guy didn't make others lists. battle focus combined with a pseudo rend gun, what a package deal.
2. Scatter bikes - I know.. not the top of my list. Maybe it is just me. but I have found lately they are never a real issue for me or my other group members. most everything gets a save and once they jink, meh.
1. Centurians - Grav or dakka. both amazing. T5 and relentless, what a combination. It is their defense as much as their offense that makes the top of my list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Definitely forgot about them... but Mechanicus vangaurd. These guys are really good and deserve at least an honorable mention!
I think from a pure shooty perspective the Venom is perfectly fine as a 9th spot pick.
My question is, what would you suggest replace the Venom in the 9th pick rather than contrasting it to the scatbike? Perhaps the Wyvern? It just seems that this thread is getting off track into basically discussing army lists now instead of individual unit shooting.
Personally, I would like to volunteer the Heldrake to be on the top 10. With the main reason being that the Heldrake (while not as good as it used to be) is still the best option for Chaos (personal opinion). Kind of a weird comparison but it's like pro sports and the MVP vote. The Heldrake is the best player on a bad team.
My question is, what would you suggest replace the Venom in the 9th pick rather than contrasting it to the scatbike?
Probably a Wraithknight with whatever the 36" D-weapons are called.
2 D-weapons and 2 Scatter Lasers, each of which can target a different unit. A 12" jump move, on top of being possibly the most durable unit in the game for its cost. Also, anything wishing to tie it up in combat has to deal with S10 attacks that strike at I5, along with its Stomps.
Huron black heart wrote: Just for the sake of adding something different, what about Obliterators? The ability to pick the required weapon and in a 2+5++ package surely isn't to be sniffed at, and if you charge them make sure you finish them off as they also have power fists
1&2- unit of 10 scouges with 4 splinter cannons = 42 poison shots sure cant hurt vehicals but is great for anti infantry or with 4 haywire blasters for anti tank though i'd drop the unit to 5. Fast (if you drop 8 shots from salvo) come with an invun and only get tougher as the game goes on.
3&4 -skittari vangaurd with either arc rifles for anti tank or there rad guns and plas guns (put your warlord here for prefered enemy). Again not so tough but they put a hell of alot of shots/wounds.
5- a full squad of steath suits so many burst cannon shots.
6- flamers of tzeench fast 2 wound flamer templates can have up to 9 in a unit also ap4. So many hits.
7- mechanicus destroyers with grav or phospher (though grav is the best). 6 shots each in units of upto6.
8- sterngaurd just so adaptable.
9- full squad of lootas so many shots. True hitting is a probkem but there autocannons and moving isnt much of a downside.
10- a max squad of cron warriors lots of shots that can hurt anything on a tough chassis. Nough said.
Here is my reasoning for why the Venom belongs in my Top 10 list.
It's dirt cheap for what it does (55-pts for a gun boat) and it does it well due to BS4 (average of 8 hits).
It's actually 65pts, unless you're only taking one splinter cannon.
My bad. My calculations for the cost/shot was based off of 65-pts however.
jy2 wrote: there are a lot of choices for AT in the army for that purpose
No, there aren't. Anti-tank is a huge problem for DE, and the abundance of weapons that can't scratch vehicles, nor be swapped out for weapons that can, is a serious problem.
This is ironic. As a person who plays the army, you never think you have enough. As a person who plays against the army, you think that they have too much.
In any case, unless you're playing against Battle Company or a Knight army (or another DE venom-spam army), mech-spam isn't as prevalent nowadays as they once were back in 5th. A basis of 3 ravagers and 3 of those DE flyers is pretty decent for AT. Then you can tack on guys with blasters/dark lances or guys with haywire on top of that and I feel that their AT is above-average, at least in comparison to many of the other armies in the game. And to top it off, their guns can hurt heavy armor whereas other guns like missile launchers and lascannons have problems.
jy2 wrote: rather, it is to hunt down infantry. As a bonus, it fires poisoned shots so can even hurt MC's!
But that's the point - it's not good at hunting infantry. Against marines, you have a vehicle with 12 long-range bolter shots. Any marine players here want to praise bolters?
Against IG, eldar and other T3 models, it's effectively firing AP5 lasgun shots.
If you're hunting infantry, you really don't want poison 4+.
I mean, these 12 shots you keep praising amount to 1.3 dead marines. Is that supposed to be good?
Compared to units around its price range (assuming target are T4 3+ marines):
Venom = 1.3W
5 Tactical marines at Rapid-fire range = 1.1W
Chimera (that remains stationary) = .75W
War Walker w/2x Scatter Lasers = 1.48W
7 Fire Warriors at Rapid-fire range = 1.55W
1 Missile-side = 1.5W
Now assuming the target is a T6 3+ Monstrous creature:
Venom = 1.3W
5 Tactical marines at Rapid-fire range = .37W
Chimera (that remains stationary) = .42W
War Walker w/2x Scatter Lasers = .89W
7 Fire Warriors at Rapid-fire range = .78W
1 Missile-side = 1W
The venom is ok against regular MEQ infantry, but as the infantry-based unit goes up in Toughness, the Venom begins to excel.
Most importantly, it is dirt cheap and easily spammable. Yeah it's fragile. Then again, so is the #1 choice on my list, the scatter bike.
But, as a transport, you can't call it spammable and then ignore the cost of the rather less useful units you have to buy to get it.
Also, whilst scatter bikes are fragile, they can move 2d6" in the assault phase to get back to safety. You also don't need to take passengers with terrible survivability and crap weapons to access them.
Passengers is if you want to make the Venom ObSec (when taken as a troop dedicated transport). But yes, there is that transport tax. However, one can also argue that having 2 cheap ObSec units, both with poisoned weaponry, isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially in a MSU army.
And of course, trying to make the #9 shooty unit on my list as good as the #1 shooty unit on my list isn't exactly fair.
jy2 wrote: If you scale it up, 5 units of scatbikes (60-shots, 405-pts) can get you 6 venoms (72-shots, 390-pts) and change.
How are you taking 6 venoms without passengers? Or are you going unbound? In which case those Scatterbikes will be ObjSec, and your venoms won't be.
Moreover, have you actually done any math for this? I'm guessing not.
vs GEQ Venoms: 24
Scatterbikes: 27.7
vs MEQ Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 11.1
vs TEQ Venoms: 4
Scatterbikes: 5.6
vs T5 MEQ Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 8.9
vs T6 3+
Venoms: 8
Scatterbikes: 6.7
vs AV10
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 20hp
vs AV11
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 13.3hp
vs AV12
Venoms: 0hp
Scatterbikes: 6.7hp
You'll notice that, despite your claim about the venom being dedicated anti-infantry, the Scatterbikes outperform them against every type of infantry. Literally the only target venoms are better against is T6 MCs. In exchange, the venoms can do nothing against AV10, whilst the Scatterbikes can harm anything up to AV12. They can kill 2 Chimeras, 4 Rhinos or 5 Jinking Venoms each turn. As in, they can wipe out basically your entire venom fleet in one round. I guess numbers aren't actually much of a defence after all - not when you're so ridiculously fragile.
Moreover, this is using your own massively biased scenario - where the venoms are taken without passengers. If you include the cost of Warriors, then suddenly you're looking at 105pts per venom, with a negligible increase in firepower or survivability. Shall we run the above numbers again and see if the venoms are even close to scatterbikes against non-vehicles?
Venoms were good back in 5th. What you seem to have missed is that the game has moved on since then, but venoms haven't. And, their firepower just isn't enough to keep them competitive - let alone put them in the top 10. It certainly doesn't justify their atrocious survivability, and their inability to harm vehicles is crippling. Gargantuan Creatures are the final nail in their coffin. Poison was supposed to be DE's defence against big creatures (as they lack Grav, Plasma, D-weapons or any equivalent), and is the one target against which Venoms should really shine. Except they don't. Because GCs were given virtual immunity to poison. So, they've traded any ability to harm vehicles for... nothing whatsoever.
You do realize that I put Scatterbikes at #1 and Venoms at #9, right?
In any case, this is my opinion only on the Top shooters in the game currently. The list isn't an end-all-be-all of best shooty units. Feel free to replace the Venom from my list with one of your choice for your Top 10 list.
This is ironic. As a person who plays the army, you never think you have enough. As a person who plays against the army, you think that they have too much.
Actually, even my opponents agree DE haven't got enough anti-tank.
jy2 wrote: A basis of 3 ravagers and 3 of those DE flyers is pretty decent for AT.
So long as your opponent agrees to only bring a single Chimera.
jy2 wrote: Then you can tack on guys with blasters/dark lances or guys with haywire on top of that and I feel that their AT is above-average, at least in comparison to many of the other armies in the game.
You're the only person I've seen in a long time to say, with a straight face, that DE have above-average anti-armour. Which armies do you think we exceed?
jy2 wrote: And to top it off, their guns can hurt heavy armor whereas other guns like missile launchers and lascannons have problems.
Against AV10, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV11, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV12, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV13, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -12" range.
Against AV14, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with +1S and -12" range.
Dark Lances are only better against AV14. And you're going to see a hell of a lot more AV10-12 than you are AV13-14. Moreover, marines and such have meltaguns to take out high-AV vehicles - we just get short-range Dark Lances.
They are a bloody awful weapon.
jy2 wrote: And of course, trying to make the #9 shooty unit on my list as good as the #1 shooty unit on my list isn't exactly fair.
Well, you were the one who brought up the comparison in the first place - I just ran the math.
Leaving aside your baffling statements about DE anti-vehicle weapons though, you make some good points about the venom. If you're wondering why I haven't bothered to quote them above, it's because I see nothing to argue with.
Huron black heart wrote: Just for the sake of adding something different, what about Obliterators? The ability to pick the required weapon and in a 2+5++ package surely isn't to be sniffed at, and if you charge them make sure you finish them off as they also have power fists
They're not bad. Their main strengths are their durability and their flexibility (insofar as having several different types of weapons). However, 2 main things keep them from my list:
1. They are not efficient shooters. 60-70 pts for potentially 1 lascannon shot (or even 4 assault cannon shots with limited range) just isn't going to cut it.
2. Having to change guns every turn makes them somewhat inconsistent.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: On the other hand shots per point ratio doesn't take into account the quality of the shot. But it's JY2's list so he can use the deciding factor how he likes.
Right. It doesn't take into account the quality of the shots, only the quantity. Factors like the BS, strength of the guns and other factors like Poisoned or Twin-linkage can actually make a unit's shooting better (or even worse) than the actual cost/shot ratio. Hence why the flyrant is actually a better shooter than his pts/shot suggests. However, the cost/ratio can be used as a general indicator to approximate the efficiency of a unit's shooting.
jy2 wrote: And of course, trying to make the #9 shooty unit on my list as good as the #1 shooty unit on my list isn't exactly fair.
Well, you were the one who brought up the comparison in the first place - I just ran the math.
Leaving aside your baffling statements about DE anti-vehicle weapons though, you make some good points about the venom. If you're wondering why I haven't bothered to quote them above, it's because I see nothing to argue with.
Just brought up the comparison between the scatbike and the venom to show that the venom is a more efficient shooter for the price. It puts out just as many shots at a cheaper package and not many units can do that against the scatterbike. My comparison was never meant to imply that the Venom is just as good as scatbikes overall.
BS4 baseline, higher with Doctrine. Base 3 shot gun that does 2 wounds on anything on a 6, can take rapid fire haywire, 3 shot plasma or armorbane ap 3 snipers and are relentless. Can make their seargent your HQ for prefered enemy.
Zoner wrote: Personally, I would like to volunteer the Heldrake to be on the top 10. With the main reason being that the Heldrake (while not as good as it used to be) is still the best option for Chaos (personal opinion). Kind of a weird comparison but it's like pro sports and the MVP vote. The Heldrake is the best player on a bad team.
Hellturkey was #6 on my list. I love running that thing with my Khorne Daemonkin army. Never fails to kill stuff.
I could add some honorable mentions to my list, including:
Ork Lootas: These guys get pretty good shooting, especially if they roll three shots each and they are in a large blob.
Eldar Wraithknight: Don't really need to comment on this one! It barely missed my top 10.
Chaos Obliterators: Changing weapons to suit the current tactical demand is pretty good actually. I consider these one of the few good units in the CSM codex.
Vindicare Assassin: Don't laugh! I've had plenty of success with this guy, notably in a game where he popped TWO chaos land raiders!
I didn't put vehicles in my list, Hellturkey included for the fact that you can pen them and effectively nullify them for a turm .
Regarding the hellturkey, one pen and you either snapshot, lose the baleflamer or crash and burn. It can also come on turn 4 at the latest...not a huge fan of flyers in general unless they can manipulate their reserves, such as the Raven Guard formation. (although it is good, I just don't think top ten good).
Frozocrone wrote: I didn't put vehicles in my list, Hellturkey included for the fact that you can pen them and effectively nullify them for a turm .
Regarding the hellturkey, one pen and you either snapshot, lose the baleflamer or crash and burn. It can also come on turn 4 at the latest...not a huge fan of flyers in general unless they can manipulate their reserves, such as the Raven Guard formation. (although it is good, I just don't think top ten good).
Heldrake can ignore Shaken/Stunned on a 2+ thanks to Daemonic Possession. And it has a 5++ save. Not that great I know, but that Daemon save has saved my Heldrake's butt more than once! I do see your point about the reserves thing, though. I've had the thing wait until turn 4 to come in. It really sucks when that happens.
You're the only person I've seen in a long time to say, with a straight face, that DE have above-average anti-armour. Which armies do you think we exceed?
jy2 wrote: And to top it off, their guns can hurt heavy armor whereas other guns like missile launchers and lascannons have problems.
Against AV10, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV11, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV12, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -1S and -12" range.
Against AV13, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with -12" range.
Against AV14, a Dark Lance is a Lascannon with +1S and -12" range.
Dark Lances are only better against AV14. And you're going to see a hell of a lot more AV10-12 than you are AV13-14. Moreover, marines and such have meltaguns to take out high-AV vehicles - we just get short-range Dark Lances.
They are a bloody awful weapon.
You have to take into account the availability on such mobile platforms. They don't need to be 48" range because they are on vehicles that can move 12" and still shoot them at full BS. That's equivalent in range, and I would argue better.
Yes, they are s8, it can only do so much against lower av vehicles compared to lascannons, but Marines are one of the few armies that have a lascannon... even tau can't bring such a high strength weapon for such a cheap point cost as marines.
I am not saying a DE army can show up against a full Russ army and win always, but I wont say it's not impossible. As per what armies I think they will come equipped more prepared because of availability... Totally depends if you restrict this to shooting; If you do: Tyranids, Orks, Chaos, I would even argue marines (50% of the time, mainly because marines need to choose to bring it)
10/20 twin linked poison shots, deep-striking, with a 3+ cover save is pretty solid for 175ish. Add in sails to get nearly anywhere to grab an Objective.
And the skimmer deep strike rule also helps.
In my top 10, a few that have not been mentioned.
Unit of thunder-fire, unit of wyverns, and for the points, orc lobbas.
You have to take into account the availability on such mobile platforms. They don't need to be 48" range because they are on vehicles that can move 12" and still shoot them at full BS.
If you're referring to Ravagers, no they can't. If they move more than 6" then they're snapshotting one of their guns.
Moreover, you also have to take into account the actual effectiveness of those weapons, and what those vehicles trade for speed. It takes 3 Ravagers with Dark Lances (375pts) to destroy a single 65pt Chimera out of cover. And, in exchange for the ability to move all of 6" and fire all weapons (giving them all the speed of a Leman Russ), they're AV11 and open-topped.
Grizzyzz wrote: That's equivalent in range, and I would argue better.
Even if that was true (it isn't), the difference is that a 48" range weapon lets you stay further away from your opponent's weapons.
Furthermore, as above, DE are already sacrificing durability for speed - they shouldn't need to sacrifice range and power as well. Not when so many other units get given speed without sacrificing anything.
Yes, they are s8, it can only do so much against lower av vehicles compared to lascannons, but Marines are one of the few armies that have a lascannon... even tau can't bring such a high strength weapon for such a cheap point cost as marines.
Eh? Tau can boast plenty of S5-7 shots, which are far better at taking out light vehicles. They also have 18-24" range meltas to take out heavier vehicles. Not to mention being able to remove cover with Markerlights, increase BS with Formation bonuses etc. - whilst DE can boast nothing of the sort.
vipoid wrote: If you're referring to Ravagers, no they can't. If they move more than 6" then they're snapshotting one of their guns.
Can raiders not take them? I was under the impression they could... if not then my mistake.
Grizzyzz wrote: That's equivalent in range, and I would argue better.
vipoid wrote: Even if that was true (it isn't), the difference is that a 48" range weapon lets you stay further away from your opponent's weapons.
Completely true, but DE vehicles have easy access to +1 cover saves, so using your mobility to get into range and decent cover where you may not even need to jink for a 4+ save.
Yes, they are s8, it can only do so much against lower av vehicles compared to lascannons, but Marines are one of the few armies that have a lascannon... even tau can't bring such a high strength weapon for such a cheap point cost as marines.
Eh? Tau can boast plenty of S5-7 shots, which are far better at taking out light vehicles. They also have 18-24" range meltas to take out heavier vehicles. Not to mention being able to remove cover with Markerlights, increase BS with Formation bonuses etc. - whilst DE can boast nothing of the sort.
Tau are vastly better at anti-vehicle than DE.
Tau are better then DE yes, and Tau were not on my list of armies DE were better then either..! But that was not the point I was trying to make there. Simply, I was saying even Tau do not have access to a lascannon for as cheap as marines can bring it.
Completely true, but DE vehicles have easy access to +1 cover saves, so using your mobility to get into range and decent cover where you may not even need to jink for a 4+ save.
Well, I'm not sure I'd call 15pts 'easy access' - not on fragile vehicles that aren't exactly cheap to begin with. If you can get a save from terrain, then it's nice. Especially since, being Av10-11 and open-topped, even a single shot that gets through is often enough to destroy them. Trust me - I know.
The other aspect is that DE vehicles are already reliant on Jink saves, but with the increasing number of Ignores Cover weapons in the game, buying extra Jink saves for your vehicles is very much putting all your eggs into one basket, as it were.
Don't get me wrong - 3+ Jink can be really good if you're not relying on the vehicle's own firepower. Jinking with a Raider is fine - since the loss of firepower is minimal and the crew can still fire/assault normally. Jinking with a Ravager cripples its already dubious firepower and basically ruins its main function.
Tau are better then DE yes, and Tau were not on my list of armies DE were better then either..! But that was not the point I was trying to make there. Simply, I was saying even Tau do not have access to a lascannon for as cheap as marines can bring it.
Grizzyzz wrote: Totally agree, every new codex that comes out pretty much sticks its finger up at DE, and Chaos (but then again its chaos right )
"Sorry Chaos, you can't have Razorbacks or Drop Pods as it would make you too much like SMs. Now, if you'll excuse is, we're off to give SMs Obliterators +1"
I think they are decent, earn some respect.. but are they better then most other units people have mentioned? I don't think so. They never worked for me personally
koooaei wrote: Mek gunz anyone? Cheap, shooty, effective. With t7 meatshields for 3 ppm. Nice IC bunker.
Do you use them as a warlord-bunker, or for some other IC?
Generally, DLS megaboss. This squad advances to the center of the board, tanks with t7 2+, loses ap2 stuff to 3 ppm grots and can hold it's own in melee. I prefer KMK for this job. The squad is afraid of s10 ap2 and of strong melee units but all in all, it's a really good point investment. 5 s8 ap2 blast potentially with reroll for 150 base points is good. Add in some mobility and cc choppiness and they're great.
koooaei wrote: Mek gunz anyone? Cheap, shooty, effective. With t7 meatshields for 3 ppm. Nice IC bunker.
They were 8 in mine. Mobility was a huge issue with my list (aside Broadsides, who have an incredible output for their cost and Devastators/Fire Dragons, who I would switch with Relic Sicaran Battle Tank and Black Knights). Mek Gunz get to stay as they have a large range and are so cheap for what they can do.
koooaei wrote: Mek gunz anyone? Cheap, shooty, effective. With t7 meatshields for 3 ppm. Nice IC bunker.
They were 8 in mine. Mobility was a huge issue with my list (aside Broadsides, who have an incredible output for their cost and Devastators/Fire Dragons, who I would switch with Relic Sicaran Battle Tank and Black Knights). Mek Gunz get to stay as they have a large range and are so cheap for what they can do.
Because they have been surpassed. And so many players throw them away, so they never get to shoot much.
^Agree with that last part...
But if you use them as an actual fire base unit vs. ruining them with combi-weapons and becoming a suicide squad, they are pretty darn nasty.
Oh, you have all bikes? I'll wound on 2's (or use the Ignore Cover bolts if you are Ravenwing with that dumb 2+ rerollable)
Really need to kill some 3+ save guys? We have AP 3 round (with Imperial Fists tactics, the gets hot is nerfed pretty hard)
And the Ap 4 30" range shots can be good when you are far back, or see something with 4+ save (not often honestly, lol)
Are they the best shooting unit in the game? No. But I still think they are in the top 10 if used correctly. (I'm still blown away that people use them for combi weapons- just use a command squad!!!)
If we're up for FW stuff, what about a custom stompa? 2 massive S: D blasts, masive s7 ap4 blast, hellstorm s6 ap3 flamer, a bunch of bigshootas on a 12 HP superheavy walker platform with easy access to invul save and repairs that gives fearless for every ork nearby - all for just ~550 pts.
Because they have been surpassed. And so many players throw them away, so they never get to shoot much.
^Agree with that last part...
But if you use them as an actual fire base unit vs. ruining them with combi-weapons and becoming a suicide squad, they are pretty darn nasty.
Oh, you have all bikes? I'll wound on 2's (or use the Ignore Cover bolts if you are Ravenwing with that dumb 2+ rerollable)
Really need to kill some 3+ save guys? We have AP 3 round (with Imperial Fists tactics, the gets hot is nerfed pretty hard)
And the Ap 4 30" range shots can be good when you are far back, or see something with 4+ save (not often honestly, lol)
Are they the best shooting unit in the game? No. But I still think they are in the top 10 if used correctly. (I'm still blown away that people use them for combi weapons- just use a command squad!!!)
I try, but scatbikes shoot them in the face. Or the gravstar pays them a visit. People use overwhelming firepower in their lists just so squads like Sternguard can't do any work.
I wouldn't put anything apart from Grav Centurions or Skyhammer Devestators in a top ten from the marine codex. But if I was giving an honorary mention to a unit I'd give it to Legion Of The Damned ahead of sternguard, the ability to put inbuilt ignore cover on almost any standard imperial weapon is pretty sweet.
If only they could take Grav-Cannons and Gravguns..
You ain't kidding there, bro. That and Obsec Ravenwing are the main good things we lost from the last book. The new one is an improvement in just about every other way, though.
jy2 wrote: Here is my list of the Top 10 Best Shooting unit in the game today:
Jy2's Top 10 Best Shooters
One term you will hear a lot from me is the cost per shot ratio (notated as pts/shot). Basically, what this means is how many points does it cost per shot for that unit. With this ratio, the lower it is, the better.
1. Scatterbikes. The most cost-efficient non-vehicle shooting unit in the game at 6.75 pts/shot and they pump out high quality BS4, S6 shots. It doesn’t hurt that the scatbike is also probably the fastest, ObSec troop unit in the game as well. If even one of these suckers survive, it can mean the difference between Victory or Defeat as it turbo-boosts onto an objective just before the game ends.
2. Devastator Centurions. One of the scariest shooters in the game. The centurion with Hurricane Bolters can pump out an incredible 7.27 pts/shot at Rapid-fire range, and they are threat to both infantry and tanks. Devastator Centurions are the main reason why Imperial armies have arguably the deadliest shooting deathstar build in the game.
3. Broadsides with High-Yield Missile Pods and Interceptor. One of the best shooters in the game on a highly durable platform, the Missile-side puts out an amazing 8.75 pts/shot. Moreover, they are highly accurate with Twin-linked shooting and with the help of Markerlights, can be even more accurate and deadly (with Ignores Cover). Also, Broadsides are one of 2 units in my Top 10 that can shoot you when you come in from Reserves. Their main drawbacks are the lack of any Invulnerable saves (against armies that can Ignore Cover), low Leadership that makes them vulnerable to LD-based attacks and the fact that they are not Relentless (unless you take a specific Tau formation).
4. Sicaran Battle Tank (Forgeworld). One of the best tanks in the Imperial arsenal, the Sicaran is also one of its best shooters as well. With Heavy Bolter sponsons, it puts out an impressive 10.33 pts/shot. But what makes it stand out even more is that 6 of those shots are Twin-linked, S6 Rending shots that ignore Jink saves. It’s also an incredibly resilient tank at AV F13/S12/R12 and can be made even harder to kill with some upgrades (Ignore meltas, 4+ save vs Haywire). It can be both anti-infantry (with Heavy Bolter sponsons) or anti-tank (with Lascannon sponsons and the Tank Hunter upgrade). Lastly, it is a fast vehicle so can move up to 6” and still fire all of its guns.
5. Flyrant with TL-Brainleech Devourers and Electroshock Grubs. While this guy isn’t the most incredible shooter (20 pts/shot makes him the least efficient shooter on my list), he is a reliable shooter with 12 Twin-linked BS4 S6 shots. Also, he is both a threat to infantry as well as other tanks (thanks to his Haywire template as well). But what makes the flyrant stand-out is all the little things he does. He is a huge force-multiplier for the Tyranid army with his Synapse and Psychic buffs. He can hit you no matter where you hide thanks to him being a Flying MC. He can hit both ground units and other flyers with equal accuracy. Finally, he is fairly durable due to being a FMC with the potential for FNP as well. While his shots are expensive, his accuracy and ability to hit both ground units and flyers helps to make his shooting actually more efficient than other units on this list with much lower costs/shot ratios.
6. Riptide. The riptide by itself is a respectable shooter. When it Novas up with its Heavy Burst Cannons, it can put out up to decent shooting at 11.25 pts/shot. And while not the most accurate shooter, its shooting becomes much more dangerous with the help of Markerlights. But what really sets this guy apart is twofold. First is its flexibility. You name it, the riptide can do it. Need Skyfire? Done. Need a large blast? You got it. Trouble with infantry? He can handle them. Tanks also. He can also shoot you when you come in from Reserves. Secondly is his durability. T6, 5W with a 2+ save and potentially 3++ Invulnerable with FNP? This guy is resilient as heck. Finally, he can shot you without needing to see you and is very mobile to boot.
7. Vulture (Forgeworld). An incredible shooter at 6.74 pts/shot on a fairly durable, AV12 flyer platform. Highly accurate as well with 20 Twin-linked shots as well as Strafing Run. Add Vector Dancer on top of that and this flyer becomes one of the more maneuverable flyers. You can’t really hide from it. It’s only drawbacks are that it is purely for anti-infantry and experienced players can take advantage of its flight path to avoid perhaps a turn of fire.
8. Warp Spiders. While these guys don’t put out a whole lot of shots, the shots that they do put out are quality shots. And at 9.5 pts/shot, they’re damn dangerous as well. With the potential for BS5 from formations and S6 shots that wound based on Initiative and Rending, these guys can hurt infantry, MC’s and light tanks as well. Their range may be short, but with a 2D6+6” Movement, Battle Focus and then a 2D6” Assault move, these guys can get into firing positions fairly easily and then get out of retalitorial strikes. And then there’s this annoying ability of theirs called Flickerjump….
9. Venom. Yes, the lowly Venom is actually a really good shooter. With 12 shots and at BS4, it is actually the most efficient shooting unit in the game at a blistering 5.42 pts/shot! Moreover, they come with a 5++ Invulnerable save, are pretty darn fast and can be ObSec as well. Their downsides? They are fragile and they can’t do anything to other tanks. But in terms of pure anti-infantry firepower, nothing beats the efficiency of the Venom.
10. Wyvern. This is the only blast-based unit in my Top 10. While one-dimensional, not much in the game beats the ability of the Wyvern to shred mass infantry and certainly nothing beats at its cost level. With the ability to Ignore Cover and re-roll wounds, the Wyvern is the best infantry horde-killer in the game currently for the price.
Honorable Mentions:
Black Knights – Resilient bastards with good assault capability and Twin-linked rapid-fire plasmas standard.
Crisis Suits – High firepower and good flexibility but somewhat expensive and fragile.
Fire Raptor – Very good shooting (11.84 pts/shot) on a very resilient flyer platform.
Kataphrons – The most efficient pure AP2 shooting in the game for their price.
Stormsurge – The best shooting Lord of War for under 400-pts.
War Walkers – 7.5 pts/shot for S6 BS4 shooting.
Ok, I have revised my Top 10 Shooty Units using a more advance formula based off of my Cost/shot ratio. My new ratio, which I will call the Weighted Cost/shot (or Pts/shot) Efficiency, will incorporate other factors into the shooting efficiency of a unit. Factors like how durable a unit is, how deadly is its shooting and how maneuverable the unit is. Without further ado, here are just the rankings. I will probably write in a future article about how the formula works:
A Thunderfire Cannon needs to be on the list. It's more survivable than a Wyvern, longer range and can damage armor 12 or less. A unit of 3 just puts out ridiculous firepower and with 12 templates you can walk the small blast templates into several units.
DarthDiggler wrote: A Thunderfire Cannon needs to be on the list. It's more survivable than a Wyvern, longer range and can damage armor 12 or less. A unit of 3 just puts out ridiculous firepower and with 12 templates you can walk the small blast templates into several units.
I can do the calculations for a TFC, but since I don't have my book with me, can anyone tell me 2 things:
jy2 wrote: 2. Are the blasts Heavy or Assault weapons?
All 3 shooting modalities are heavy 4 barrage blast.
When you were calculating the weighted points per shot for the tank commander punisher, were you doing them for the special character pask (rending etc) or the vanilla BS 4 command tank? Additionally, were you also calculating heavy bolter sponsons or just the main gun?
jy2 wrote: 2. Are the blasts Heavy or Assault weapons?
All 3 shooting modalities are heavy 4 barrage blast.
Thanks.
When you were calculating the weighted points per shot for the tank commander punisher, were you doing them for the special character pask (rending etc) or the vanilla BS 4 command tank? Additionally, were you also calculating heavy bolter sponsons or just the main gun?
That is just for the Commander and includes Heavy Bolter Sponsons.
With Pask, it actually comes out to being slightly less efficient (5.06 w/Pask) due mainly to to higher cost (40-pts more). Now it can be argued that With Pask is better due to the intangibles (more flexibility in what it can hurt), but just from a purely numbers perspective, the Commander is slightly more efficient.
With Pask, it actually comes out to being slightly less efficient (5.06 w/Pask) due mainly to to higher cost (40-pts more). Now it can be argued that With Pask is better due to the intangibles (more flexibility in what it can hurt), but just from a purely numbers perspective, the Commander is slightly more efficient.
Is that even with Pask getting Preferred Enemy (assuming Warlord), and rerolling all failed armour-penetration rolls?
DarthDiggler wrote: A Thunderfire Cannon needs to be on the list. It's more survivable than a Wyvern, longer range and can damage armor 12 or less. A unit of 3 just puts out ridiculous firepower and with 12 templates you can walk the small blast templates into several units.
I can do the calculations for a TFC, but since I don't have my book with me, can anyone tell me 2 things:
Slow (Cannot move and shoot due to the TFC being Heavy weapons)
Poor Anti-tank if using the Ignores Cover shot.
S5 only if using the Ignores Cover shot.
Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)
Can "walk" the blasts to hit other units with multiple TFC's.
After the TFC dies, you can use the techmarine as a separate entity.
Techmarine is actually a threat to lesser units in assault.
With Pask, it actually comes out to being slightly less efficient (5.06 w/Pask) due mainly to to higher cost (40-pts more). Now it can be argued that With Pask is better due to the intangibles (more flexibility in what it can hurt), but just from a purely numbers perspective, the Commander is slightly more efficient.
Is that even with Pask getting Preferred Enemy (assuming Warlord), and rerolling all failed armour-penetration rolls?
That is assuming re-roll AP. However, with regards to PE, is that his actual Warlord Trait or does he randomly generate one? Also, is it PE (everything)?
That is assuming re-roll AP. However, with regards to PE, is that his actual Warlord Trait or does he randomly generate one? Also, is it PE (everything)?
Preferred Enemy is his warlord trait. You pick an army at the beginning of the game and he gets preferred enemy against everything from that army.
That is assuming re-roll AP. However, with regards to PE, is that his actual Warlord Trait or does he randomly generate one? Also, is it PE (everything)?
Preferred Enemy is his warlord trait. You pick an army at the beginning of the game and he gets preferred enemy against everything from that army.
Ok, I will recalculate his ratings with PE considered.
Pros:
AV14
Prefered Enemy
Rending
Re-roll Armor Pen
Cons:
Slow (Cannot move flat-out, thus potentially affecting its range or getting away from assault threats)
Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)
Immune to small-arms fire
Can be one-shotted with Melta
Needs to be taken as a squadron of tanks
Punisher w/Pask = 4.76
I will replace the Commander's Punisher w/Pask's Punisher.
Ffyllotek wrote: How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?
Its because these ranking purely on firepower and not other aspects, such as" Reanimation protocol and jetbike type
Ffyllotek wrote: How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?
Tomb Blade (as configured above):
Pros:
Gauss
Ignores Cover
Fast (Jetbike)
Toughness 5
Reanimation Protocols
Cons:
Rapid-fire (less shots at 12-24" range)
4+ Armor (In my scale, 3+ is the base)
Poor Anti-tank (Any gun S5 or less)
Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)
A threat to objectives with their super-speed (though not ObSec).
Awful in close-combat but can tarpit non cc-units.
Tomb Blade = 5.06
However, I'd still rank the Flyrant over the Tomb Blade because the flyrant has better intangibles.
Ffyllotek wrote: How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?
Its because these ranking purely on firepower and not other aspects, such as" Reanimation protocol and jetbike type
My rankings formula actually take into account the "other aspects" as long as they help increase a units shootiness. This includes the quality of the firepower, range, the durability of the unit and the mobility of the unit.
how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
Ffyllotek wrote: How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?
Tomb Blade (as configured above):
Pros:
Gauss
Ignores Cover
Fast (Jetbike)
Toughness 5
Reanimation Protocols
Cons:
Rapid-fire (less shots at 12-24" range)
4+ Armor (In my scale, 3+ is the base)
Poor Anti-tank (Any gun S5 or less)
Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)
A threat to objectives with their super-speed (though not ObSec).
Awful in close-combat but can tarpit non cc-units.
Tomb Blade = 5.06
Don't forget that they can take an armor upgrade for +3 armor, have twin linked shooting, and every 6 is auto wounding and glancing so they are a threat to any vehicle.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
I would like to know how a similar setup would rank with the IH chapter tactics.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
I would like to know how a similar setup would rank with the IH chapter tactics.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
I would like to know how a similar setup would rank with the IH chapter tactics.
can they get relentless?
Yes. They can take bikes to get it. Toughness 5. with 4+ FNP due to their chapter tactics and apothecary. Though there is still a debate weather the apothecary can take a grav gun too.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
I would like to know how a similar setup would rank with the IH chapter tactics.
can they get relentless?
Yes. They can take bikes to get it. Toughness 5. with 4+ FNP due to their chapter tactics and apothecary. Though there is still a debate weather the apothecary can take a grav gun too.
sounds like it is really good
the Dark Angels command squad can only be on foot, but the RWCS is pretty good itself, with all the plasma
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
Not very good. Their efficiency is 9.80. The problem is that they die just as easily to boltguns as any other 5-man MSU marine squad.
By the ways, my rankings never take into account external force-multipliers, such as adding IC's to the unit, the casting of Psychic powers on the unit or other external factors like Markerlights or area-effect special abilities (i.e. Darkshroud's stealth/shroud bubble).
against av14 or t10, TBs gauss is equal to s8
against av13 or t9, TBs gauss is equal to s7
against av12 or t8, TBs gauss is equal to s6
I was shooting my TBs at an av13 Buzzgob Big Mek Stompa this last weekend. They didn't feel like poor anti-tank.
Gauss is unique (like Poison) in that it is a scaleable ability. The tougher/better AV a unit is, the better Gauss, like Poison, performs. However, the lower it is, the worse it performs.
In your example, Gauss hurts vehicles:
against av14 or t10, Gauss glances/wounds on 6's
against av13 or t9, Gauss glances/wounds on 6's
against av12 or t8, Gauss glances/wounds on 6's
against av11 or t7, Gauss glances/wounds on 6's
On the other hand, a true AT weapon, like the S8 missile launcher, hurts vehicles:
against av14 or t10, S8 glances/wounds on 6's
against av13 or t9, S8 glances/wounds on 5's
against av12 or t8, S8 glances/wounds on 4's
against av11 or t7, S8 glances/wounds on 3's
and so on.
Yeah, sure, Gauss can hurt armor. That's why I listed it as a Pro. However, the fact of the matter is that Gauss isn't great AT. Against AV10, it is no better than regular bolters. The main reason why Gauss is still a threat to tanks is because you can spam units with Gauss quite cheaply. Then again, you can also spam Guardsmen and if you have enough of them, they will even be a threat to a Monstrous Creature despite the fact that guardsmen are somewhat poor shooters.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
Ffyllotek wrote: How are Tomb Blades not on these lists? For 20 pts it's a S5 AP4 TL Rapid Fire Guass weapon on a jet bike (with Necron goodies) with ignores cover?
Tomb Blade (as configured above):
Pros:
Gauss
Ignores Cover
Fast (Jetbike)
Toughness 5
Reanimation Protocols
Cons:
Rapid-fire (less shots at 12-24" range)
4+ Armor (In my scale, 3+ is the base)
Poor Anti-tank (Any gun S5 or less)
Intangibles: (Not counted in the actual calculations, but can be considered to move the unit up or down in the rankings.)
A threat to objectives with their super-speed (though not ObSec).
Awful in close-combat but can tarpit non cc-units.
Tomb Blade = 5.06
Don't forget that they can take an armor upgrade for +3 armor, have twin linked shooting, and every 6 is auto wounding and glancing so they are a threat to any vehicle.
Twin-linked shooting already factored in. So is Gauss.
Tomb Blade w/TL-Gauss, 3+ and Ignores Cover = 5.26
Surprisingly, the 3+ TB is actually slightly less efficient due to a small increase in its cost (which is a 10% increase in its cost).
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: how would a Dark Angels command squad with 5 grav guns, an apothecary, the chapter banner (for relentless) and a couple storm shields rank?
they're fairly durable and do a ton of damage, especially if a divination libby is stuck in with them
Not very good. Their efficiency is 13.07. The problem is that they die just as easily to boltguns as any other 5-man MSU marine squad.
not quite as easily due to the FNP, but i understand
Oops. Forgot about the FNP. Here, let me fix that.
Dark Angels Command Squad (as above) = 12.25
The main problem with them is their high cost. Before any modifications, you are looking at a raw base 245-pts / 15-shots = 16.33 pts/shot.
they're really expensive yes, but with boosted overwatch, relentless grav, and counter attack they are a really nasty squad to deal with.
how would you rate Ravenwing Grav bikers?
jy2 wrote: Against AV10, it is no better than regular bolters.
Incorrect. Against AV10, a roll of 5 will glance and a roll of 6 will penetrate. Bolters glance on 6. Gauss never causes a loss in performance.
TBs are fantastic since they offer a solution to av 12+ and/or cover saves on a cheap mobile and survivable platform. Their potency is directly related to the prevalence of certain targets in the meta to throw them at.
Is the target av 12+? hit it with TBs.
Is the target t8+? hit it wthTBs Is the target a squishy unit hiding behind a cover save? hit it with TBs.
Is the target a skimmer? hit it with TBs.
Against most but not all lists I will have a target that TBs will perform amazingly against.
TBs won't be golden against Gladius lists. Against those kind of lists they will just be appropriately costed. Other lists, either av 12+ or ignores cover will net them value.
Fast
Grav-weaponry
AP2
Relentless
Toughness 5
Re-rollable cover
Cons:
Short-ranged
Intangibles: (Not Included in the calculations)
Grim Resolve (Stubborn + better Overwatch)
Scout
Hit-&-Run
Has a Teleport Homer
BTW, I made a mistake in my calculations for the DA Command Squad above and have revised their Weighted Cost/Shot Efficiency. It's actually 9.19 and not 12.25.
jy2 wrote: Against AV10, it is no better than regular bolters.
Incorrect. Against AV10, a roll of 5 will glance and a roll of 6 will penetrate. Bolters glance on 6. Gauss never causes a loss in performance.
TBs are fantastic since they offer a solution to av 12+ and/or cover saves on a cheap mobile and survivable platform. Their potency is directly related to the prevalence of certain targets in the meta to throw them at.
Is the target av 12+? hit it with TBs.
Is the target t8+? hit it wthTBs Is the target a squishy unit hiding behind a cover save? hit it with TBs.
Is the target a skimmer? hit it with TBs.
Against most but not all lists I will have a target that TBs will perform amazingly against.
TBs won't be golden against Gladius lists. Against those kind of lists they will just be appropriately costed. Other lists, either av 12+ or ignores cover will net them value.
You are right, but it is the S5 that hurts AV10, not the Gauss.
I was talking more in general terms with regards to Gauss, such as the Gauss from the much more common Gauss flayers. With the TB's (and Immortals), it is the actual strength of the gun rather than the gauss that will hurt AV10. In any case, I've factored in Gauss, Ignores Cover and the speed and resiliency of the TB's into their Efficiency ratio already and yes, they are a very good shooty unit.
Ravenwing Black Knights with their twin-linked plasma talons, re-rollable jink, grim resolve, hit and run, scout.. And in a RWSF they have the ability to turbo-boost, jink, and still fire at full BS is pretty darn good. RW bikers in an attack squadron formation with an improved BS can also be pretty good... Granted, they're not scatbikes- but I have found opponents tend to underestimate them.
I would like to see the your calculations for the Iron Hands Biker command squad. 4 grav-guns, apothecary, 4+ fnp. most like 2 or 3 in front with storm shields (most popular way to run them). If you rule apothecary can take a grav-gun, then it would be 5 grav-guns.
NorseSig wrote: I would like to see the your calculations for the Iron Hands Biker command squad. 4 grav-guns, apothecary, 4+ fnp. most like 2 or 3 in front with storm shields (most popular way to run them). If you rule apothecary can take a grav-gun, then it would be 5 grav-guns.
Sure.
Iron Hands Command Squad on bikes: 5x Command Squad - Bikes, 1x Apothecary, 3x Storm Shields, 4x Gravguns - 200-pts
Pros:
Fast
Grav-weaponry
AP2
Toughness 5
FNP Iron Hands Improved FNP 3++ for majority
This depends on how you look at the question, I guess. Overall I would give it to Windriders with Scatter Lasers due to their mix of resilience, damage output, being able to harm almost anything, mobility, etc for the points cost - nothing even remotely compares, especially once you throw Objective Secured in.
If I'm going off of just pure theoretical damage output for the points and nothing else, I would probably hand it to Wraithguard. A standard unit priced like Terminators that wields frazzling' Destroyer Weapons is kind of hard to go past for this specific category.
