So someone I know runs blood angels with Grey knights allies. During the first turn he decides to spring on me that all his drop pods have a chance to come in turn one. I told him that's not how it works but he explained it like this.

First, he is running the Grey knight formation that allows everything in it to deep strike turn one. He had 3 ten man tac squads in three pods, then two more pods he purchased empty that he had the Grey knights in. He argued that since they can deep strike turn one, the extra pods would roll to come on after the three that would normally be the max allowed to drop. But doesn't reserves rolls happen first, and if he got the two Grey knight pods in, then he could only drop one more marine pod.

He is always trying to abuse the rules and it gets old but I can't refuse the game if a tournament comes up and this happens.

Technically, he isn't wrong. Half come in automatically. And the Drop Pod Assault rule does state that "At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. That "at the beginning" makes it so half the pods come in before you even roll for reserves. It states that you start rolling for reserves AFTER they come in.

Sorry dude, but your friend is actually following the rules correctly here.

I looked up the relevant rules, hoping to support you, but I think I found proof for your opponent by the RAW. My instinct was that you rolled once for the transport, not for the unit inside, but then I found this;

Combined Reserve Units

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

So that means you roll once for both, but it doesn't specify which of the two you roll for - just that they arrive together. In this way, yes, it appears that in the case that a Grey Knight unit can roll to enter from Reserves Turn 1, and that unit starts the game combined with a Drop Pod, you could still roll for them to arrive on Turn 1 in the Drop Pod.

Sorry :(

Does the Grey Knights Formation rule include any Transport they are riding in? Because the Drop Pods won't have this rule, so do not qualify as benefiting from it otherwise.

Charistoph wrote:
Does the Grey Knights Formation rule include any Transport they are riding in? Because the Drop Pods won't have this rule, so do not qualify as benefiting from it otherwise.

It does not disallow transports, fwiw. So I don't know if that changes things. It doesn't specify anything regarding transports. Just units held in DSR can be rolled for on a 3+ starting turn one. Since Drop Pod Assault says the remaining pods are rolled for normally, it might make it so they can't come in early as that would not be normal.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Does the Grey Knights Formation rule include any Transport they are riding in? Because the Drop Pods won't have this rule, so do not qualify as benefiting from it otherwise.

It does not disallow transports, fwiw. So I don't know if that changes things. It doesn't specify anything regarding transports. Just units held in DSR can be rolled for on a 3+ starting turn one. Since Drop Pod Assault says the remaining pods are rolled for normally, it might make it so they can't come in early as that would not be normal.

The problem lies in mixing Rites of Teleportation (which only applies to units in the formation) and Drop Pod Assault from the drop pods (which are not a unit in the formation).

The thing is, as per the rule I quoted above, the rules do not specify that you are rolling for the transport, just that you make a single roll for both. As worded, that means you roll for EITHER the Drop Pod, or for the unit that it's combined with (by being embarked within). You are not required to roll for the Drop Pod - you could choose the unit inside to roll for. If you choose the unit inside, they have the Rites of Teleportation, and are a unit that are in Deep Strike Reserves...

I think this just shows why Battle Brothers mucks things up so much in 40k.

 Yarium wrote:
The thing is, as per the rule I quoted above, the rules do not specify that you are rolling for the transport, just that you make a single roll for both. As worded, that means you roll for EITHER the Drop Pod, or for the unit that it's combined with (by being embarked within). You are not required to roll for the Drop Pod - you could choose the unit inside to roll for. If you choose the unit inside, they have the Rites of Teleportation, and are a unit that are in Deep Strike Reserves...

I think this just shows why Battle Brothers mucks things up so much in 40k.

Wouldn't they not come in with their Drop Pod in that case?

I should point out that you are technically rolling for reserves for the Drop Pod, not the Grey Knight unit inside of it. The Grey Knights are not in Deep Strike reserve, but are embarked on the Drop Pod, so in this case I would say it does not benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

As far as I can see it, if he wants to roll for it, he has to roll for the Grey Knights only and let the pods enter on their own, since again only the Grey Knights have Rites of Teleportation, not the pod itself. It's like saying a Land Raider can deepstrike because the Terminators inside can.

 Yarium wrote:
The thing is, as per the rule I quoted above, the rules do not specify that you are rolling for the transport, just that you make a single roll for both. As worded, that means you roll for EITHER the Drop Pod, or for the unit that it's combined with (by being embarked within). You are not required to roll for the Drop Pod - you could choose the unit inside to roll for. If you choose the unit inside, they have the Rites of Teleportation, and are a unit that are in Deep Strike Reserves...

I think this just shows why Battle Brothers mucks things up so much in 40k.

There is nothing that states which one you do roll for, true. But since they are reliant on the Transport's movement, it's rules would be in force, not the Embarked unit's. At least, not without express notation like Scout and Infiltrate.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
The thing is, as per the rule I quoted above, the rules do not specify that you are rolling for the transport, just that you make a single roll for both. As worded, that means you roll for EITHER the Drop Pod, or for the unit that it's combined with (by being embarked within). You are not required to roll for the Drop Pod - you could choose the unit inside to roll for. If you choose the unit inside, they have the Rites of Teleportation, and are a unit that are in Deep Strike Reserves...

I think this just shows why Battle Brothers mucks things up so much in 40k.

Wouldn't they not come in with their Drop Pod in that case?

Basically you pick which you want to roll for and because they're combined they'll arrive at the same time.

I think he cheated. Grey Knights can't take Drop Pods at all. Nemesis only allows units from that detachment to DS turn one. As the Drop Pods aren't GK pods, they follow the same DS rules that the BA use, which to my knowledge, dont have turn one roll for reserves.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I should point out that you are technically rolling for reserves for the Drop Pod, not the Grey Knight unit inside of it. The Grey Knights are not in Deep Strike reserve, but are embarked on the Drop Pod, so in this case I would say it does not benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

I'm away from my books right now but If I recall correctly, the bolded part is untrue. I remember from discussions about the angel's fury formation that units inside the drop pods were explicitly stated by the rules to ALSO be in deep strike reserve. 90% sure on that info, but away from books as I said, so no pitchforks if it's inaccurate.

And judging from Yarium's quote about the combined reserves, I think this cross-detachment rule abuse is technically legit. :/

I am convinced that because the extra drop pods are not part of the formation they do not benefit from the Rites of Teleportation at all; doesn't matter if you roll for the unit and their transport as a single combined roll since part of group is not qualifying for the formations benefit.

All I know is when those units of Grey knights can land anywhere safely via pod protection and they do the Nova power, it's pretty damned broken.

As quoted from the BRB, the controlling player can choose any of three 'things' to make the reserve roll for: The Transport, the Unit, or the Independent Character. Since it is legal to place a unit in the Fast Attack Blood Angels Drop Pod, the controlling player can choose to 'roll' for the pod (using its rules) or choose to 'roll' for the unit inside the pod (using ITS rules).

The only opportunity to deny this is to insist that a die roll be made in order to take advantage of the, 'roll for transport, unit or independent character'. If 'Rites of Teleportation' still uses a die roll to bring units on, then there's no way to prevent it. If, however, the Purifiers (or whatever it is in the other drop pods) do NOT roll in order to come in (i.e. come in automatically), then it becomes a question of whether or not that rule confers to the transport. It doesn't, of course, since the transport is not Dedicated.

Cheers!

Malathrim wrote:I am convinced that because the extra drop pods are not part of the formation they do not benefit from the Rites of Teleportation at all; doesn't matter if you roll for the unit and their transport as a single combined roll since part of group is not qualifying for the formations benefit.

Doesn't matter that it doesn't have the Rites of Teleportation, because the unit that it's transporting does. When it comes time to make Reserve Rolls, you check to see if any units in Deep Strike Reserves have the Rites of Teleportation rule. You find a Grey Knight unit in Deep Strike Reserves, since the unit has been declared to be a Combined Unit with the Drop Pod from another detachment. As a Combined Unit, this allows them to make a single Reserve roll for either unit, and the result will affect both. The Grey Knight unit has Rites of Teleportation, allowing them to make this roll on the first turn. You roll, and if successful, both they AND the Drop Pod arrive at the same time, with the Grey Knights inside the Drop Pod. This is rules-lawyery as all (bleep), but is 100% legal.

Orock wrote:All I know is when those units of Grey knights can land anywhere safely via pod protection and they do the Nova power, it's pretty damned broken.

Agreed. But, you have some options! First, you can simply choose not to play this person as, from the sounds of it, they're far more interested in playing the game "how to break Warhammer 40k" than playing the game "Warhammer 40k". Ask them to save that stuff for a tournament, and request more fluffy builds. But yes, in a tournament, this would be legal.

 Yarium wrote:

Malathrim wrote:I am convinced that because the extra drop pods are not part of the formation they do not benefit from the Rites of Teleportation at all; doesn't matter if you roll for the unit and their transport as a single combined roll since part of group is not qualifying for the formations benefit.

Doesn't matter that it doesn't have the Rites of Teleportation, because the unit that it's transporting does. When it comes time to make Reserve Rolls, you check to see if any units in Deep Strike Reserves have the Rites of Teleportation rule. You find a Grey Knight unit in Deep Strike Reserves, since the unit has been declared to be a Combined Unit with the Drop Pod from another detachment. As a Combined Unit, this allows them to make a single Reserve roll for either unit, and the result will affect both. The Grey Knight unit has Rites of Teleportation, allowing them to make this roll on the first turn. You roll, and if successful, both they AND the Drop Pod arrive at the same time, with the Grey Knights inside the Drop Pod. This is rules-lawyery as all (bleep), but is 100% legal.

I disagree. For movement, and similar activities, Embarked units rely on the rules of the Transport. Rarely do the rules of the Embarked unit have any sway on how a Transport operates. Storm Ravens do not get Deep Strike just because they are carry Jump Marines, after all. Rhinos do not get Infiltrate if they are carrying Scouts. So, too, the Drop Pods do not get to benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

Just because you roll for all at one time does not mean you get to choose which one's rules you go by. It just means that you don't roll for each one so that the Embarked comes before or after the Transport.

If you want turn 1 Drop Pods, go Skyhammer.

Charistoph wrote:
I disagree. For movement, and similar activities, Embarked units rely on the rules of the Transport. Rarely do the rules of the Embarked unit have any sway on how a Transport operates. Storm Ravens do not get Deep Strike just because they are carry Jump Marines, after all. Rhinos do not get Infiltrate if they are carrying Scouts. So, too, the Drop Pods do not get to benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

Just because you roll for all at one time does not mean you get to choose which one's rules you go by. It just means that you don't roll for each one so that the Embarked comes before or after the Transport.

If you want turn 1 Drop Pods, go Skyhammer.

We're not told to roll for the Transport, we're told to roll for the combined unit. The rules state "roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Indepedent Character/Transport vehicle". The "and/or" says that we can roll for the unit and it's transport together, or else we can roll for the unit or its transport, and the single roll will affect both. Note, this is just how we determine what's coming in and when, and not how it's coming in or where. Your argument is that this roll determines how it comes in or where it comes in, which is not applicable. You are, in effect, asking a different question; "Does a unit that can Deep Strike or Infiltrate confer that special rule to a Transport it's embarked in?". I do not have the rules in front of me, but I believe the answer is "no", but please feel free to look that up and post the answer, though it would still not change the outcome of this argument. Unfortunately, in this situation, the Drop Pod does in fact put the Grey Knight unit into Deep Strike Reserves, where it will benefit from the special rule.

It actually does matter that the Drop Pod doesn't have Rites of Teleportation, because you need it to come in from reserves from turn one.

The BA Drop Pod, despite carrying a GK unit, doesn't have that rule. Were you to DS that Pod in, you would be violating a rule without having permission to override it. Nemesis Strike force doesn't give permission for other detachments to come in turn one.

 Frozocrone wrote:
It actually does matter that the Drop Pod doesn't have Rites of Teleportation, because you need it to come in from reserves from turn one.

The BA Drop Pod, despite carrying a GK unit, doesn't have that rule. Were you to DS that Pod in, you would be violating a rule without having permission to override it. Nemesis Strike force doesn't give permission for other detachments to come in turn one.

Note quite the same. You need to have Rites of Teleportation to make the reserve roll on Turn 1. But you're not rolling for the Drop Pod, you're rolling for the unit inside it (hence the "and/or" statement). Nothing prevents a Drop Pod from physically arriving on the first turn, but there is normally a rule that prevents you from rolling to see if they arrive. Since you roll for the Rites of Teleportation for the Grey Knight unit though, you bypass this rule. The game now sees a Combined Unit that has successfully passed a Reserve roll, and the Combined Unit begins the process of deploying via Deep Strike.

 Yarium wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
I disagree. For movement, and similar activities, Embarked units rely on the rules of the Transport. Rarely do the rules of the Embarked unit have any sway on how a Transport operates. Storm Ravens do not get Deep Strike just because they are carry Jump Marines, after all. Rhinos do not get Infiltrate if they are carrying Scouts. So, too, the Drop Pods do not get to benefit from Rites of Teleportation.

Just because you roll for all at one time does not mean you get to choose which one's rules you go by. It just means that you don't roll for each one so that the Embarked comes before or after the Transport.

If you want turn 1 Drop Pods, go Skyhammer.

We're not told to roll for the Transport, we're told to roll for the combined unit. The rules state "roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Indepedent Character/Transport vehicle". The "and/or" says that we can roll for the unit and it's transport together, or else we can roll for the unit or its transport, and the single roll will affect both. Note, this is just how we determine what's coming in and when, and not how it's coming in or where. Your argument is that this roll determines how it comes in or where it comes in, which is not applicable. You are, in effect, asking a different question; "Does a unit that can Deep Strike or Infiltrate confer that special rule to a Transport it's embarked in?". I do not have the rules in front of me, but I believe the answer is "no", but please feel free to look that up and post the answer, though it would still not change the outcome of this argument. Unfortunately, in this situation, the Drop Pod does in fact put the Grey Knight unit into Deep Strike Reserves, where it will benefit from the special rule.

No, I am not asking that question at all, at least, that is not my first or primary question. I am looking at this situation from multiple perspectives.

First is the movement relationship between Transport and Embarked. The Embarked are reliant upon the movement rules of their Transport. Under basic rules, the Embarked do nothing to change a Transport's ability to move. Arriving from Reserves is a type of movement, even from Deep Strike (just very vertical in that situation). Is there any rule that overrides this condition?

Then is the relationship of rolling for Reserves. Yes, you "roll a single dice for the unit and/or its ...Transport vehicle", but does it state anything about using any/all their Reserve bonuses that the Embarked may have and combine them with or override any bonuses that the Transport may have?

Finally, we come to the question you think I'm asking which is "does the rule the Embarked carry confer to its Transport?" The basic rules do not give permission to do this. Some Special Rules do, though, so we double check to see if they meet the conditions.

 Yarium wrote:
But you're not rolling for the Drop Pod, you're rolling for the unit inside it...

Then you're not using the 'Drop Pod Assault' rule and have basically disconnected the pod from those who are using the rule.

Charistoph wrote:No, I am not asking that question at all, at least, that is not my first or primary question. I am looking at this situation from multiple perspectives.

First is the movement relationship between Transport and Embarked. The Embarked are reliant upon the movement rules of their Transport. Under basic rules, the Embarked do nothing to change a Transport's ability to move. Arriving from Reserves is a type of movement, even from Deep Strike (just very vertical in that situation). Is there any rule that overrides this condition?

Then is the relationship of rolling for Reserves. Yes, you "roll a single dice for the unit and/or its ...Transport vehicle", but does it state anything about using any/all their Reserve bonuses that the Embarked may have and combine them with or override any bonuses that the Transport may have?

Finally, we come to the question you think I'm asking which is "does the rule the Embarked carry confer to its Transport?" The basic rules do not give permission to do this. Some Special Rules do, though, so we double check to see if they meet the conditions.

Arriving from Reserves is not a type of movement. Even Deep Striking is not a type of movement (it is technically a type of deployment that occurs before the movement phase). I know you feel this is not the case, as you have presented a similar argument in other rules debates. I do not have the rules in front of me right now, so I can't effectively argue this right now though. However, if you have the rules, please post where the Deep Strike is considered a movement, and I will happily cede that point. Even still, it doesn't change that the Reserve Roll has nothing to do with movement, and thus has nothing to do with whether or not the unit can arrive from Deep Strike turn 1. Deep Striking is a process of deploying the unit - but even if it were movement, it'd still just be a way to describe how it moves as it enters the battlefield. The Reserve Roll is a separate thing, and that's what's being influenced here.

As for your next point, it doesn't matter if it confers to the Transport. It, in fact, does not confer to the Transport vehicle. However, that is not a necessity of the rules. The rules only ask you to make a single Reserve roll, to which the Grey Knights in that detachment are legally allowed to do. Once made, both units arrive, as they are a combined unit. The Transport does not need to have that rule, since the Transport is not the unit that is being rolled for. I think the problem here is that you are considering the Combined Unit to be the only thing here that can make a Reserve Roll. There are in fact THREE (3) such units; the Drop Pod, the Grey Knights, and the Drop Pod-Grey Knight Combined Unit. This is what "and/or" means, you can do (Option A) OR (Option B) OR (Option A&B).

Option A (the Drop Pod unit) can't roll for reserves. Option B (the Grey Knights unit) can roll for reserves. Option A&B (the two combined together) can't roll for reserves. The sucker here is that because Option B is still an option, when it passes its Reserve roll, it forces the Drop Pod to begin the Deep Strike deployment process as well.

If the rules instead stated "make a single reserve roll for the Transport vehicle", then it'd be clear that the Grey Knights couldn't arrive on Turn 1, since the Transport can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. Unfortunately, it says "and/or", meaning that the unit contained in the Transport is a viable option. That is the permission right there. And since you're rolling for that single unit, and that single unit meets the prerequisites to be able to roll on Turn 1, then there you go.

Ghaz wrote:Then you're not using the 'Drop Pod Assault' rule and have basically disconnected the pod from those who are using the rule.

I'm not sure how that's relevant. The remaining Drop Pods are rolled for normally, meaning they're units that are in Deep Strike Reserve along with the unit embarked on them. Since they're rolled for normally, you may indeed do the "and/or" selection shenanigans presented here.

Hmmn basic thing is missed ..If you are in a dedicated transport then you start embarked on it ..if its not a dedicated transport then you have to embark on it during turn one ...

morfydd wrote:
Hmmn basic thing is missed ..If you are in a dedicated transport then you start embarked on it ..if its not a dedicated transport then you have to embark on it during turn one ...

If that was relevant, it would shut down all "taxi services" in 40k. Is it relevant?

morfydd wrote:
Hmmn basic thing is missed ..If you are in a dedicated transport then you start embarked on it ..if its not a dedicated transport then you have to embark on it during turn one ...

False.

 Yarium wrote:

Option A (the Drop Pod unit) can't roll for reserves. Option B (the Grey Knights unit) can roll for reserves. Option A&B (the two combined together) can't roll for reserves. The sucker here is that because Option B is still an option, when it passes its Reserve roll, it forces the Drop Pod to begin the Deep Strike deployment process as well.

If the rules instead stated "make a single reserve roll for the Transport vehicle", then it'd be clear that the Grey Knights couldn't arrive on Turn 1, since the Transport can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. Unfortunately, it says "and/or", meaning that the unit contained in the Transport is a viable option. That is the permission right there. And since you're rolling for that single unit, and that single unit meets the prerequisites to be able to roll on Turn 1, then there you go.

The Pod isn't forced into rolling for reserves on Turn one, it has no permission to. You would have to roll for reserves turn two. The Nemesis strike force does say that 'instead of rolling for reserves at the start of turn two, you can roll for reserves at the start of turn one'. Nothing forces you to roll for reserves turn one, it is a option that you can voluntarily choose.

Ideally, don't break rules. By choosing to DS turn one with the GK, you're breaking the rolling for reserves rule for the BA Drop Pods. It doesn't matter that you make a combined reserves roll, the fact is those Pods are coming in when they have no permission to.

@morfydd, dedicated transports restrict the unit that can start embarked, other than that you can start what unit you want in them.

Yarium wrote:Arriving from Reserves is not a type of movement. Even Deep Striking is not a type of movement (it is technically a type of deployment that occurs before the movement phase). I know you feel this is not the case, as you have presented a similar argument in other rules debates. I do not have the rules in front of me right now, so I can't effectively argue this right now though. However, if you have the rules, please post where the Deep Strike is considered a movement, and I will happily cede that point. Even still, it doesn't change that the Reserve Roll has nothing to do with movement, and thus has nothing to do with whether or not the unit can arrive from Deep Strike turn 1. Deep Striking is a process of deploying the unit - but even if it were movement, it'd still just be a way to describe how it moves as it enters the battlefield. The Reserve Roll is a separate thing, and that's what's being influenced here.

Arriving from Reserves involves movement (actually, its Moving On From Reserves, but they are connected). In order to compete it, the unit must move on to the table.

Yes, Deep Striking is deploying, this was not argued against. I said it is considered a form of movement, and by that I was referencing these lines:

It replaces the movement required for Moving On From Reserve that normally occurs and applies the same restrictions.

And while the Reserve Roll may be influenced, the Transport does not have the influence and it's "movement" is what determines the Embarked's available actions. When a unit is deployed in to a Transport, it normally cannot change how the Transport is deployed, it is the Transport's rules that make that determination. Where it changes from this, it is noted. Note the exceptions in Infiltrate and Scout for examples and precedence.

Yarium wrote:As for your next point, it doesn't matter if it confers to the Transport. It, in fact, does not confer to the Transport vehicle. However, that is not a necessity of the rules. The rules only ask you to make a single Reserve roll, to which the Grey Knights in that detachment are legally allowed to do. Once made, both units arrive, as they are a combined unit. The Transport does not need to have that rule, since the Transport is not the unit that is being rolled for. I think the problem here is that you are considering the Combined Unit to be the only thing here that can make a Reserve Roll. There are in fact THREE (3) such units; the Drop Pod, the Grey Knights, and the Drop Pod-Grey Knight Combined Unit. This is what "and/or" means, you can do (Option A) OR (Option B) OR (Option A&B).

Option A (the Drop Pod unit) can't roll for reserves. Option B (the Grey Knights unit) can roll for reserves. Option A&B (the two combined together) can't roll for reserves. The sucker here is that because Option B is still an option, when it passes its Reserve roll, it forces the Drop Pod to begin the Deep Strike deployment process as well.

If the rules instead stated "make a single reserve roll for the Transport vehicle", then it'd be clear that the Grey Knights couldn't arrive on Turn 1, since the Transport can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. Unfortunately, it says "and/or", meaning that the unit contained in the Transport is a viable option. That is the permission right there. And since you're rolling for that single unit, and that single unit meets the prerequisites to be able to roll on Turn 1, then there you go.

I'm sorry, there is nothing that really supports that because in order to do this you have to have permission to ignore the Transport's requirements with the Embarked's abilities. I do not see any permission for this outside of a very few occasions as noted before. The and/or is including situations where they apply and eliminating those that do not apply so ICs, Embarked units, and Transports do not come in separately.

I do not see this as a Combined unit. I see it as an Embarked unit on a Transport and the Transport controlling the arrival from Reserves.

morfydd wrote:Hmmn basic thing is missed ..If you are in a dedicated transport then you start embarked on it ..if its not a dedicated transport then you have to embark on it during turn one ...

Hardly missed when it is not there. Read Deployment rules, Reserves rules, and the two sections on Dedicated Transports.

Actually, you can influence deployment. Dont have rulebook for a few mins still, but if Im not mistaken Infiltrate actually does confer to the vehicle if the unit inside has it, so that may muddy the waters on this one.

Yeah I was under the impression half your drop pods rounding up arrive turn one. Putting stuff inside them that rolls to deep strike turn one to cheat the other pods in feels wrong. I don't see how their deep strike permission gets around the drop pods rule that only half come in.

That Grey knight power seems like it was balanced around the danger of deep strike mishap. Landing safely between 6 or more units because the pod shunted you to a safe spot then combat squad ding and potentially casting nova cleansing flame 2-4 times is absolutely devastating.

Charistoph wrote:

I do not see this as a Combined unit. I see it as an Embarked unit on a Transport and the Transport controlling the arrival from Reserves.

Then you are going directly against the rules and how the rules would have you see it. The Grey Knights in the Drop Pod are indisputably a Combined Unit so you are required to treat them as one or you are breaking the rules.



The Combined Reserve Unit rule is the only rule that comes into play here.

1) The rule requires a single Reserve Roll to be made for the combined unit.
2) The rule does not care whether the embarked unit or the transport make that roll.
3) Indisputably the Grey Knight unit has been granted a turn one reserve roll and is free to make that roll on behalf of the entire combined unit (per the Combined Reserve Unit rule)
4) The result of that roll causes the Grey Knight and the Drop Pod to arrive together from Deep Strike Reserve.

If the Combined Reserve Unit rule required that the roll be made by the Transport then the rule interaction would be dependent upon whether or not the Special Rule is transferred to the transport.

However, as is plainly stated in the rule, the Combined Reserve Unit accepts the roll from either the embarked unit or the transport unit or even an attached IC.

The only thing that is required of the transport for it to benefit from the turn one reserve roll is that it is forming a combined unit with a unit that makes that roll on its behalf.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

I do not see this as a Combined unit. I see it as an Embarked unit on a Transport and the Transport controlling the arrival from Reserves.

Then you are going directly against the rules and how the rules would have you see it. The Grey Knights in the Drop Pod are indisputably a Combined Unit so you are required to treat them as one or you are breaking the rules.

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

The Combined Reserve Unit rule is the only rule that comes into play here.

1) The rule requires a single Reserve Roll to be made for the combined unit.
2) The rule does not care whether the embarked unit or the transport make that roll.
3) Indisputably the Grey Knight unit has been granted a turn one reserve roll and is free to make that roll on behalf of the entire combined unit (per the Combined Reserve Unit rule)
4) The result of that roll causes the Grey Knight and the Drop Pod to arrive together from Deep Strike Reserve.

If the Combined Reserve Unit rule required that the roll be made by the Transport then the rule interaction would be dependent upon whether or not the Special Rule is transferred to the transport.

However, as is plainly stated in the rule, the Combined Reserve Unit accepts the roll from either the embarked unit or the transport unit or even an attached IC.

The only thing that is required of the transport for it to benefit from the turn one reserve roll is that it is forming a combined unit with a unit that makes that roll on its behalf.

So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:
Actually, you can influence deployment. Dont have rulebook for a few mins still, but if Im not mistaken Infiltrate actually does confer to the vehicle if the unit inside has it, so that may muddy the waters on this one.

I noted that there are exceptions and they are explicit when they apply. This actually provides precedence for the Drop Pod to ignore rules owned by the Embarked that do not address the Transport.

Charistoph wrote:
So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.

You are bringing up issues that the rules don't care about. The rule interaction is not dependent on answers to any of those questions.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod (or anything) from arriving turn one from reserves is the lack of a reserve roll which are normally given out starting on turn two.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll and per the Combined Unit rule that reserve roll can benefit members of the Combined Unit. The Drop Pod is a member of the Combined unit.

You will be required to prove that the transport is somehow not part of the Combined Unit which you cannot since it is by definition.

Charistoph wrote:
So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.

There's no need. That's like saying "Show me sky without stars, except for the part where there are stars. You can't, so therefore, there are no stars."

You only need the one rule to allow this to work. You don't need an additional rule specifying that one unit's rules take precedence over another when that's not the case. I can't show you a rule that doesn't exist. There doesn't need to be any other rules associated with it, because that's the rule. Nothing about the rules needs to know the status of the unit embarked, because there is no rule asking for the status of the embarked unit. A Combined Unit isn't a unit either, it's just the name associated with the status of having two or more units whose entry from reserves is tied together. The problem may be that you're thinking of this as a single object, when in fact it's THREE. There's the Drop Pod, the Grey Knights, and the Combined Unit. That's what "and/or" means. It's either Option A, Option B, or Option A&B. The Combined Unit rules state that we can roll for the Drop Pod, the Grey Knights, or for the Drop Pod & Grey Knights, and a successful roll for any of these means that the entire combined unit arrives. Now, the Drop Pod can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. The combined unit of Drop Pod & Grey Knights ALSO can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. But the Grey Knights by themselves do indeed have a rule allowing them to make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. As soon as they pass that, the Combined Unit rule jumps in and requires that both they and the Drop Pod now deploy via Deep Strike. This is the rule that takes precedence.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.

You are bringing up issues that the rules don't care about. The rule interaction is not dependent on answers to any of those questions.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod (or anything) from arriving turn one from reserves is the lack of a reserve roll which are normally given out starting on turn two.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll and per the Combined Unit rule that reserve roll can benefit members of the Combined Unit. The Drop Pod is a member of the Combined unit.

You will be required to prove that the transport is somehow not part of the Combined Unit which you cannot since it is by definition.

You are correct that they do not care about those questions, as they do not address them. As they do not address them, they are still in force.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.

You are bringing up issues that the rules don't care about. The rule interaction is not dependent on answers to any of those questions.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod (or anything) from arriving turn one from reserves is the lack of a reserve roll which are normally given out starting on turn two.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll and per the Combined Unit rule that reserve roll can benefit members of the Combined Unit. The Drop Pod is a member of the Combined unit.

You will be required to prove that the transport is somehow not part of the Combined Unit which you cannot since it is by definition.

You are correct that they do not care about those questions, as they do not address them. As they do not address them, they are still in force.

You have failed to show anything preventing my clear line of permission. The Drop Pod only requires a reserve roll. The Grey Knight unit provides one per the Combined Unit rule. The Drop Pod then does what Drop Pods do and arrives along with the Grey Knight unit from Deep Strike Reserves, facing no restrictions.

My argument wins unless you show the Drop Pod is not part of the Combined Unit.

Gotta agree with col_impact, the rules tell you what to roll for and that the combined unit is bound by the result. You're allowed to roll for reserves for the GKs on turn 1, there's nothing that removes this permission, and the result of the roll is applied to the combined unit.

Don't have my books with me since I'm at work, but I do remember that the Deep Strike rules do specifically state that a unit with the Deep Strike special rule does not confer this special rule on the transport they are riding in/on. A group of terminators riding in a land raider could not deep strike the land raider onto the battlefield. I see this as a precedent for this statement:

Units do not transfer their special rules to the transports they are using. The drop pod does not have a special rule that allows it to enter play in turn one, therefore unless the rule states that it applies to transports used by units in the formation, it does not.

This is definitely HIWPI, and this is, I believe, RAI.

As has been explained, the only reason the Drop Pod normally isn't allowed to Deep Strike turn 1 (outside of Drop Pod Assault, obviously) is because it's not allowed to make a reserve roll turn 1. The Grey Knights are, though, and the combined unit uses the result of whichever part of it you roll for, which in this example is the Grey Knights. The Drop Pod never gains the special rule, but it doesn't have to, because the result of the special rule is applied to the combined unit.

So when do you normally roll for drop pods?

 EnTyme wrote:
Don't have my books with me since I'm at work, but I do remember that the Deep Strike rules do specifically state that a unit with the Deep Strike special rule does not confer this special rule on the transport they are riding in/on. A group of terminators riding in a land raider could not deep strike the land raider onto the battlefield. I see this as a precedent for this statement:

Units do not transfer their special rules to the transports they are using. The drop pod does not have a special rule that allows it to enter play in turn one, therefore unless the rule states that it applies to transports used by units in the formation, it does not.

This is definitely HIWPI, and this is, I believe, RAI.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod (or anything) from arriving turn one from reserves is the lack of a reserve roll as those rolls are normally handed out starting turn two. The Grey Knight unit provides that reserve roll for the Combined Unit on turn one. If the reserve roll is made the Drop Pod then arrives along with the Grey Knight unit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
So when do you normally roll for drop pods?

All units in reserve normally receive reserve rolls starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit in the Formation receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

The Grey Knight is permitted to make the roll on behalf of the other members of the Combined Unit per the Combined Unit rule. The Drop Pod is a member of the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is made, the Grey Knight and the Drop Pod arrive together, facing no restrictions.

 EnTyme wrote:
Don't have my books with me since I'm at work, but I do remember that the Deep Strike rules do specifically state that a unit with the Deep Strike special rule does not confer this special rule on the transport they are riding in/on. A group of terminators riding in a land raider could not deep strike the land raider onto the battlefield. I see this as a precedent for this statement:

Units do not transfer their special rules to the transports they are using. The drop pod does not have a special rule that allows it to enter play in turn one, therefore unless the rule states that it applies to transports used by units in the formation, it does not.

This is definitely HIWPI, and this is, I believe, RAI.

You are mostly correct, but not entirely. Basically, the reason why Terminators don't allow Land Raiders to Deep Strike is because you cannot place the Land Raider in Deep Strike Reserves, which is where it would need to be to arrive from Deep Strike with the Terminators. If the Terminators are not in Deep Strike Reserves with the Land Raider also being in Deep Strike Reserves, then there is no way to create the Combined Unit. As such, you can only create the combined unit if both are in your normal Reserves. At that point, you can roll Reserve Rolls (normally at the start of Turn 2), but still choose either the Terminators, the Land Raider, or the Terminators & Land Raider to make the Reserve Roll for.

That's not the case here though. The Drop Pod is in Deep Strike Reserves. It can arrive via Deep Strike. It cannot roll for Reserves on Turn 1. The Grey Knights can be embarked onto the Drop Pod, which puts them into Deep Strike Reserves. They, however, CAN roll for Reserves on Turn 1. So you go to roll Reserves, and choose to make the Reserve Roll for the Grey Knights. When they come in, so too does the Drop Pod, as it has bypassed any reserve roll. It's not transferring any special rule, it's simply using the rule that most benefits you.

the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.

You do not have permission to extend the RoT to the drop pod, and you do not have permission to roll using the rules for one of the units ignoring the rules of the others. Drop pods and deep striking transports actually have to put in a rules exception to allow the transported models come in with the transport as per the DS section.

As such rolling for the DS and saying the models in the transport are using just their DS rules for the transport to arrive on the combined rule is not allowed by the rules at all. There is no permission to pick which part of the combined unit you use to roll for arrival, only that you roll for them to come in together.

so other than having no RAW to support that you can roll for the occupants of a drop pod using their special rules and then have the drop pod arrive from DS reserves, using rules it does not have.... unless you can see somewhere that it allows you to pick an unit from the combined reserves roll to arrive using only their rules this just does not work that way.

In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle

in no way does the above state you get to PICK one of the units and roll using its rules for the rest to arrive.

Given the unit arriving using the rules for DS is the transport, that you would make the RAI claim you are rolling for the unit inside further makes no sense.

blaktoof wrote:
the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.

Actually, it EXACTLY does. That's what "and/or" means. If it was simple "and", then you'd have a valid argument that it's just 1 option for the 1 roll. Since it's "and/or" you have 3 options:

Option 1: Roll for the Transport.
Option 2: Roll for the Grey Knights
Option 3: Roll for the Transport AND Grey Knights

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.

Actually, it EXACTLY does. That's what "and/or" means. If it was simple "and", then you'd have a valid argument that it's just 1 option for the 1 roll. Since it's "and/or" you have 3 options:

Option 1: Roll for the Transport.
Option 2: Roll for the Grey Knights
Option 3: Roll for the Transport AND Grey Knights

those aren't options, you only do option 3. You roll for the arrival of the combined unit. However you are actually rolling for the arrival of the transport and the rest comes in. As given by following the rest of the rules as they tell you to do so by stating "as below" which have you place the first model. Hint, its not a GK infantry model.

it says and or because a combined unit can have

-the unit + IC [e.g. terminator squad with a terminator IC attached]
-the unit+ IC + transport. [e.g. drop pod with embarked squad + attached IC]

the combined roll references the possibility of different combinations of a combined unit.

blaktoof wrote:
the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.

You do not have permission to extend the RoT to the drop pod, and you do not have permission to roll using the rules for one of the units ignoring the rules of the others. Drop pods and deep striking transports actually have to put in a rules exception to allow the transported models come in with the transport as per the DS section.

As such rolling for the DS and saying the models in the transport are using just their DS rules for the transport to arrive on the combined rule is not allowed by the rules at all. There is no permission to pick which part of the combined unit you use to roll for arrival, only that you roll for them to come in together.

so other than having no RAW to support that you can roll for the occupants of a drop pod using their special rules and then have the drop pod arrive from DS reserves, using rules it does not have.... unless you can see somewhere that it allows you to pick an unit from the combined reserves roll to arrive using only their rules this just does not work that way.

The only thing preventing any unit from arriving from reserves on turn one is the lack of a reserve roll. Those are normally handed out on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit receives a reserve roll and is part of a Combined Unit. The Combined Unit rules allow the Grey Knight unit to make the reserve roll on behalf of the Combined Unit. A successful reserve roll is all that is required for the Combined Unit to arrive together via Deep Strike reserves.



My argument wins out unless you can show that the Drop Pod is not part of the Combined Unit.

col_impact wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.

You do not have permission to extend the RoT to the drop pod, and you do not have permission to roll using the rules for one of the units ignoring the rules of the others. Drop pods and deep striking transports actually have to put in a rules exception to allow the transported models come in with the transport as per the DS section.

As such rolling for the DS and saying the models in the transport are using just their DS rules for the transport to arrive on the combined rule is not allowed by the rules at all. There is no permission to pick which part of the combined unit you use to roll for arrival, only that you roll for them to come in together.

so other than having no RAW to support that you can roll for the occupants of a drop pod using their special rules and then have the drop pod arrive from DS reserves, using rules it does not have.... unless you can see somewhere that it allows you to pick an unit from the combined reserves roll to arrive using only their rules this just does not work that way.

The only thing preventing any unit from arriving from reserves on turn one is the lack of a reserve roll. Those are normally handed out on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit receives a reserve roll and is part of a Combined Unit. The Combined Unit rules allow the Grey Knight unit to make the reserve roll on behalf of the Combined Unit. A successful reserve roll is all that is required for the Combined Unit to arrive together via Deep Strike reserves.

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Yes and you are rolling for the transport to arrive with its embarked units, unless you are placing the GK model first by following the rules for DS.

further nothing you quoted allows you to pick one of the three units in the combined unit to make the roll.

blaktoof wrote:
those aren't options, you only do option 3. You roll for the arrival of the combined unit. However you are actually rolling for the arrival of the transport and the rest comes in. As given by following the rest of the rules as they tell you to do so by stating "as below" which have you place the first model. Hint, its not a GK infantry model.

it says and or because a combined unit can have

-the unit + IC [e.g. terminator squad with a terminator IC attached]
-the unit+ IC + transport. [e.g. drop pod with embarked squad + attached IC]

the combined roll references the possibility of different combinations of a combined unit.

Unfortunately, that's not correct. That's why it has the slash ( "/" ) between Independent Character and Transport (Independent Character/Transport) is for. The only way to read it is; "for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.", or "for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

The first means "each together, then the result applies to each part of the combined unit", the second means "each separately, then the result applies to each part of the combined unit". That's at least 3 options (maybe more, depending on how many units are in the combined unit).

EDIT: So, to make this work, you do the "or" option, and of the Drop Pod and the Grey Knights, you choose the Grey Knights.


I agree, the RAI would definitely be that this shouldn't happen. I'm not arguing RAI though, I'm arguing RAW.

blaktoof wrote:
Yes and you are rolling for the transport to arrive with its embarked units, unless you are placing the GK model first by following the rules for DS.

further nothing you quoted allows you to pick one of the three units in the combined unit to make the roll.

Incorrect. The Grey Knight unit has a reserve roll and can take it on behalf of the Combined Unit.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves is a successful reserves roll. There is no rule that states no unit may arrive from reserves on turn 1. If they can get a reserve roll and succeed with that roll they can arrive turn 1. A reserve roll is normally hard to get before turn 2, but the Grey Knight unit can get one. And he can make that reserve roll on behalf of any Combined Unit he is in.

If the roll succeeds the Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod have the successful reserve roll they need to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

col_impact wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
Yes and you are rolling for the transport to arrive with its embarked units, unless you are placing the GK model first by following the rules for DS.

further nothing you quoted allows you to pick one of the three units in the combined unit to make the roll.

Incorrect. The Grey Knight unit has a reserve roll and can take it on behalf of the Combined Unit.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves is a successful reserves roll. There is no rule that states no unit may arrive from reserves on turn 1. If they can get a reserve roll and succeed with that roll they can arrive turn 1.

If the roll succeeds the Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod have the successful reserve roll they need to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
those aren't options, you only do option 3. You roll for the arrival of the combined unit. However you are actually rolling for the arrival of the transport and the rest comes in. As given by following the rest of the rules as they tell you to do so by stating "as below" which have you place the first model. Hint, its not a GK infantry model.

it says and or because a combined unit can have

-the unit + IC [e.g. terminator squad with a terminator IC attached]
-the unit+ IC + transport. [e.g. drop pod with embarked squad + attached IC]

the combined roll references the possibility of different combinations of a combined unit.

Unfortunately, that's not correct. That's why it has the slash ( "/" ) between Independent Character and Transport (Independent Character/Transport) is for. The only way to read it is; "for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.", or "for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

The first means "each together, then the result applies to each part of the combined unit", the second means "each separately, then the result applies to each part of the combined unit". That's at least 3 options (maybe more, depending on how many units are in the combined unit).

EDIT: So, to make this work, you do the "or" option, and of the Drop Pod and the Grey Knights, you choose the Grey Knights.


I agree, the RAI would definitely be that this shouldn't happen. I'm not arguing RAI though, I'm arguing RAW.

the slash is because you are rolling for the Unit+IC or the transport with unit and IC in it.

the reason the above is not only RAW true, but RAI true, is because as you follow the rule 'as below' you place the first model which is arriving from deep strike reserves which is either the transport, OR a model in the unit+IC in the case of a combined unit that has no transport [e.g. DSing terminators+IC in terminator armor] Further the rules then later let you disembark the embarked unit...

there is no RAW support in the rules quoted that lets you roll for an embarked unit, then place their transport as the arriving unit. There is no rules statement anywhere that allows you to pick such a situation.

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

EDIT: Referencing the Deep Strike rules doesn't matter here, since we're not arguing about Deep Strike. We're arguing about the Reserve Roll. If passed, then you follow the Deep Strike rule for deploying it. Please stop trying to derail the conversation this way, as it really has nothing to do with what's going on. It simple is a description of what happens AFTER the Reserve Roll is succeeded. It does nothing to explain why the Reserve Roll itself can't be made.

There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

The Drop Pod only requires a successful reserve roll to arrive from reserves on turn 1. Nothing besides the lack of a successful reserve roll prevents the Drop Pod from arriving turn 1.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll for the Combined Unit per the Combined Unit rule.

If the roll succeeds, the Combined unit arrives via Deep Strike Reserve.

col_impact wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

The Drop Pod only requires a successful reserve roll to arrive from reserves on turn 1. Nothing besides the lack of a successful reserve roll prevents the Drop Pod from arriving turn 1.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll for the Combined Unit per the Combined Unit rule.

If the roll succeeds, the Combined unit arrives via Deep Strike Reserve.

That's nice.

Show where you have permission to roll for the grey knights embarked in the transport in the combined unit, then place the drop pod, roll for scatter, etc.

You keep making this jump that because you can make 1 roll for the combined unit to arrive[ either an Unit + Attached IC, or a transport with Unit, or a transport with unit+ attached IC], that you get to pick which part of the unit is making the roll and then arrive whatever in the combined unit with the rest coming in automatically which is not actually stated anywhere or implied. Then you claim that this statement which is not written anywhere is a Rule as Written.

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

This is compelling. Anyone else contest?

blaktoof wrote:

That's nice.

Show where you have permission to roll for the grey knights embarked in the transport in the combined unit, then place the drop pod, roll for scatter, etc.

You keep making this jump that because you can make 1 roll for the combined unit to arrive[ either an Unit + Attached IC, or a transport with Unit, or a transport with unit+ attached IC], that you get to pick which part of the unit is making the roll and then arrive whatever in the combined unit with the rest coming in automatically which is not actually stated anywhere or implied. Then you claim that this statement which is not written anywhere is a Rule as Written.

The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

All that is required for a unit to be able to receive a Reserve Roll is that it is held in Reserves.

All that is required for any unit to be able to arrive from reserves is a successful Reserve Roll.

The Grey Knight receives a Reserve Roll on turn one.

The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

The Combined Unit arrives from reserves if the Reserve Roll is successful.

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

In English, a slash during a sentence indicates an option choice for the reader. For example: "Good luck with your new son/daughter" is NOT calling the child a "sondaughter," it's giving both options to the reader so that they may apply the relevant one. IE a woman who just found out she was having a son would read the entire sentence as: "Good luck with your new son," ignoring the "/daughter" part completely, because it wasn't selected. And/or is a common one that means the reader may choose to place the word "And" or the word "or" into the spot and continue the sentence.

Example: "Would you like a free cat and/or a free dog?" If this sentence had only "and," it would imply to the reader that they MUST take both if they take any. If it only had "or," it would imply that the reader can ONLY have one, not both. But with and/or in the sentence, the reader is given the option to take either animal alone as well as both.

GW may not have known what it was doing when it wrote the rule (extremely probable given their history,) but the way they wrote it allows you to roll for reserve for the vehicle, the nameless grunts in the unit, OR some named dude coming with them. This leads to some shenanigans:

Example: You can declare Tigurius placed into a unit of Dark Angel tacticals in standard "walk-on" reserve. When you get to turn 2, you may choose to roll for tiggy or the unit, either one will bring the rest of the unit in. If you roll for tiggy and fail, his ability to reroll reserves on units from his own detachment activates, and you may reroll.

As for the land raider statement, that would be illegal. A unit doesn't typically confer deep strike onto a transport. If you did have an IC which allowed a turn 1 reserve roll for himself joined to the unit, you could try to roll on turn 1.

As a note: this ruling is DUMB, but seems to be accurate. I totally recognize the desire to prove it false, but that single "/or" says you can do it, and nothing anywhere else actually says you can't. So you've got permission and no denial anywhere. That meets the minimum for doing it legally.

col_impact wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

That's nice.

Show where you have permission to roll for the grey knights embarked in the transport in the combined unit, then place the drop pod, roll for scatter, etc.

You keep making this jump that because you can make 1 roll for the combined unit to arrive[ either an Unit + Attached IC, or a transport with Unit, or a transport with unit+ attached IC], that you get to pick which part of the unit is making the roll and then arrive whatever in the combined unit with the rest coming in automatically which is not actually stated anywhere or implied. Then you claim that this statement which is not written anywhere is a Rule as Written.

The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

All that is required for a unit to be able to receive a Reserve Roll is that it is held in Reserves.

All that is required for any unit to be able to arrive from reserves is a successful Reserve Roll.

The Grey Knight receives a Reserve Roll on turn one.

The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

The Combined Unit arrives from reserves if the Reserve Roll is successful.

being able to roll for part of a thing =/= being able to roll for all of the thing. There is no permission to roll for the combined unit to arrive based solely on the rules for a part of it.

If such were the case you could attach an IC with RoT to any unit and have them arrive turn 1 because the IC has permission to arrive turn 1 if it were separately allowed to roll to come on. Again what you propose is not at all what the rules say or imply. Further the embarked unit is not being placed and rolling for scatter, the transport is, which is what you are rolling for arrival from DS reserves for in the combined roll.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

In English, a slash during a sentence indicates an option choice for the reader. For example: "Good luck with your new son/daughter" is NOT calling the child a "sondaughter," it's giving both options to the reader so that they may apply the relevant one. IE a woman who just found out she was having a son would read the entire sentence as: "Good luck with your new son," ignoring the "/daughter" part completely, because it wasn't selected. And/or is a common one that means the reader may choose to place the word "And" or the word "or" into the spot and continue the sentence.

Example: "Would you like a free cat and/or a free dog?" If this sentence had only "and," it would imply to the reader that they MUST take both if they take any. If it only had "or," it would imply that the reader can ONLY have one, not both. But with and/or in the sentence, the reader is given the option to take either animal alone as well as both.

GW may not have known what it was doing when it wrote the rule (extremely probable given their history,) but the way they wrote it allows you to roll for reserve for the vehicle, the nameless grunts in the unit, OR some named dude coming with them. This leads to some shenanigans:

Example: You can declare Tigurius placed into a unit of Dark Angel tacticals in standard "walk-on" reserve. When you get to turn 2, you may choose to roll for tiggy or the unit, either one will bring the rest of the unit in. If you roll for tiggy and fail, his ability to reroll reserves on units from his own detachment activates, and you may reroll.

As for the land raider statement, that would be illegal. A unit doesn't typically confer deep strike onto a transport. If you did have an IC which allowed a turn 1 reserve roll for himself joined to the unit, you could try to roll on turn 1.

As a note: this ruling is DUMB, but seems to be accurate. I totally recognize the desire to prove it false, but that single "/or" says you can do it, and nothing anywhere else actually says you can't. So you've got permission and no denial anywhere. That meets the minimum for doing it legally.

again there is no RAW permission to pick one of the options to roll for. You roll for the combined unit, the options tell you the different possibilities of the combined unit.

Unit+ IC rolling
Transport with unit+ IC in it rolling

of course the land raider thing is illegal, just as ignoring that a transport cannot arrive this turn by saying you are rolling for the unit inside which could and therefore the transport arrives despite not being allowed to by claiming the combined unit roll lets you pick which part of the combined unit you roll for then apply the result to the rest.

If that were the case shouldn't it read "and IC/transport" not "and/or IC and transport?

blaktoof wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

In English, a slash during a sentence indicates an option choice for the reader. For example: "Good luck with your new son/daughter" is NOT calling the child a "sondaughter," it's giving both options to the reader so that they may apply the relevant one. IE a woman who just found out she was having a son would read the entire sentence as: "Good luck with your new son," ignoring the "/daughter" part completely, because it wasn't selected. And/or is a common one that means the reader may choose to place the word "And" or the word "or" into the spot and continue the sentence.

Example: "Would you like a free cat and/or a free dog?" If this sentence had only "and," it would imply to the reader that they MUST take both if they take any. If it only had "or," it would imply that the reader can ONLY have one, not both. But with and/or in the sentence, the reader is given the option to take either animal alone as well as both.

GW may not have known what it was doing when it wrote the rule (extremely probable given their history,) but the way they wrote it allows you to roll for reserve for the vehicle, the nameless grunts in the unit, OR some named dude coming with them. This leads to some shenanigans:

Example: You can declare Tigurius placed into a unit of Dark Angel tacticals in standard "walk-on" reserve. When you get to turn 2, you may choose to roll for tiggy or the unit, either one will bring the rest of the unit in. If you roll for tiggy and fail, his ability to reroll reserves on units from his own detachment activates, and you may reroll.

As for the land raider statement, that would be illegal. A unit doesn't typically confer deep strike onto a transport. If you did have an IC which allowed a turn 1 reserve roll for himself joined to the unit, you could try to roll on turn 1.

As a note: this ruling is DUMB, but seems to be accurate. I totally recognize the desire to prove it false, but that single "/or" says you can do it, and nothing anywhere else actually says you can't. So you've got permission and no denial anywhere. That meets the minimum for doing it legally.

again there is no RAW permission to pick one of the options to roll for. You roll for the combined unit, the options tell you the different possibilities of the combined unit.

Unit+ IC rolling
Transport with unit+ IC in it rolling

of course the land raider thing is illegal, just as ignoring that a transport cannot arrive this turn by saying you are rolling for the unit inside which could and therefore the transport arrives despite not being allowed to by claiming the combined unit roll lets you pick which part of the combined unit you roll for then apply the result to the rest.

Sorry, but I disagree. The part of the rule that says to roll for the unit and/or its independent character/transport can be read, in correct English, as saying that you can choose and roll for the independent character. Earlier in the combined reserves section, it points out that this roll will drag along any attached units, other IC's and embarked transports he might be on.

For example, let's say Tigurius is alone embarked in a allied BA rhino hanging out in reserve. Tigurius has a rule that says you may reroll reserve rolls for any units in his detachment (which includes himself.) You may choose to roll for either the unit or transport, so if you really wanted him on, you could roll for tiggy so that the reroll will apply, even though it would not apply to the rhino.

I don't think there's really any new information here. The and/or sentence is giving permission to choose the part of the unit that's taking the reserve roll, and the rest of the combined reserves rule drags the unit in along for the ride. I'm really not seeing anything to deny that permission anywhere.

I think the usage of and/or is quite clear, but I guess you don't. Talk it over with your opponent. I certainly plan to, as I don't intend to spring an excessive amount of turn 1 drop pods on anyone in a fun game.

Paoa02 wrote:
If that were the case shouldn't it read "and IC/transport" not "and/or IC and transport?

unit and/or IC and transport.

or

Unit and IC/transport

The second doesn't allow for an unit with IC in transpot, the first does.

regardless of arguing about grammar and syntax, which given GWs record for rules writing. The rule does not allow you to pick one of the units to roll for then apply the roll to the combined unit. You roll for the combined units arrival. Which is arriving when you roll for an unit in a transport, the unit or the transport.

Follow the rules down and arrive the unit by placing it and rolling scatter- which is arriving, the unit or the transport. It is the transport.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

blaktoof wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.

More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

In English, a slash during a sentence indicates an option choice for the reader. For example: "Good luck with your new son/daughter" is NOT calling the child a "sondaughter," it's giving both options to the reader so that they may apply the relevant one. IE a woman who just found out she was having a son would read the entire sentence as: "Good luck with your new son," ignoring the "/daughter" part completely, because it wasn't selected. And/or is a common one that means the reader may choose to place the word "And" or the word "or" into the spot and continue the sentence.

Example: "Would you like a free cat and/or a free dog?" If this sentence had only "and," it would imply to the reader that they MUST take both if they take any. If it only had "or," it would imply that the reader can ONLY have one, not both. But with and/or in the sentence, the reader is given the option to take either animal alone as well as both.

GW may not have known what it was doing when it wrote the rule (extremely probable given their history,) but the way they wrote it allows you to roll for reserve for the vehicle, the nameless grunts in the unit, OR some named dude coming with them. This leads to some shenanigans:

Example: You can declare Tigurius placed into a unit of Dark Angel tacticals in standard "walk-on" reserve. When you get to turn 2, you may choose to roll for tiggy or the unit, either one will bring the rest of the unit in. If you roll for tiggy and fail, his ability to reroll reserves on units from his own detachment activates, and you may reroll.

As for the land raider statement, that would be illegal. A unit doesn't typically confer deep strike onto a transport. If you did have an IC which allowed a turn 1 reserve roll for himself joined to the unit, you could try to roll on turn 1.

As a note: this ruling is DUMB, but seems to be accurate. I totally recognize the desire to prove it false, but that single "/or" says you can do it, and nothing anywhere else actually says you can't. So you've got permission and no denial anywhere. That meets the minimum for doing it legally.

again there is no RAW permission to pick one of the options to roll for. You roll for the combined unit, the options tell you the different possibilities of the combined unit.

Unit+ IC rolling
Transport with unit+ IC in it rolling

of course the land raider thing is illegal, just as ignoring that a transport cannot arrive this turn by saying you are rolling for the unit inside which could and therefore the transport arrives despite not being allowed to by claiming the combined unit roll lets you pick which part of the combined unit you roll for then apply the result to the rest.

Sorry, but I disagree. The part of the rule that says to roll for the unit and/or its independent character/transport can be read, in correct English, as saying that you can choose and roll for the independent character. Earlier in the combined reserves section, it points out that this roll will drag along any attached units, other IC's and embarked transports he might be on.

For example, let's say Tigurius is alone embarked in a allied BA rhino hanging out in reserve. Tigurius has a rule that says you may reroll reserve rolls for any units in his detachment (which includes himself.) You may choose to roll for either the unit or transport, so if you really wanted him on, you could roll for tiggy so that the reroll will apply, even though it would not apply to the rhino.

I don't think there's really any new information here. The and/or sentence is giving permission to choose the part of the unit that's taking the reserve roll, and the rest of the combined reserves rule drags the unit in along for the ride. I'm really not seeing anything to deny that permission anywhere.

I think the usage of and/or is quite clear, but I guess you don't. Talk it over with your opponent. I certainly plan to, as I don't intend to spring an excessive amount of turn 1 drop pods on anyone in a fun game.

and doing that allows you to roll for an IC inside an unit to arrive. Which would allow for an unit to arrive turn 1 that cannot based on the IC having a rule which would allow it to arrive. Despite that not being what the combined unit rule says, and also violating the rules about how special rules transfer between units and ICs.

I think the usage of and/or is quite clear, but I guess you don't.

For me it's simply:

Does the Drop Pod have the Rite of Teleportation?

Because, regardless of word limboing, you have to roll for the Drop pod in some way or form, or the GKs are coming down on their own. If the Drop Pod does not have Rite of Teleportation, then it cannot roll on the first turn even if it's passengers can.

40k is, once again, a game of permissions. As one half of the combined unit does not have permission, the whole unit does not have permission.

EDIT: And as far as I know, nothing in the rules written would allow a transported unit to grant RoT on their transport (as someone back there pointed out, Infiltrate has a special line for this).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
For me it's simply:

Does the Drop Pod have the Rite of Teleportation?

Because, regardless of word limboing, you have to roll for the Drop pod in some way or form, or the GKs are coming down on their own. If the Drop Pod does not have Rite of Teleportation, then it cannot roll on the first turn even if it's passengers can.

40k is, once again, a game of permissions. As one half of the combined unit does not have permission, the whole unit does not have permission.

EDIT: And as far as I know, nothing in the rules written would allow a transported unit to grant RoT on their transport (as someone back there pointed out, Infiltrate has a special line for this).

Incorrect. All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

col_impact wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
For me it's simply:

Does the Drop Pod have the Rite of Teleportation?

Because, regardless of word limboing, you have to roll for the Drop pod in some way or form, or the GKs are coming down on their own. If the Drop Pod does not have Rite of Teleportation, then it cannot roll on the first turn even if it's passengers can.

40k is, once again, a game of permissions. As one half of the combined unit does not have permission, the whole unit does not have permission.

EDIT: And as far as I know, nothing in the rules written would allow a transported unit to grant RoT on their transport (as someone back there pointed out, Infiltrate has a special line for this).

Incorrect. All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. Rites of Teleportation is not required.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

That line of thinking is incorrect as without Rite of Teleportation, not even Grey Knights can make the reserve roll.

Permissions, again, are required. A Drop Pod is not permitted to make a reserve roll on Turn 1 of it's own accord, it either comes in or has to wait for reserve rolls on subsequent turns. Grey Knight units that are from the Nemesis Strikeforce Detachment is granted Rite of Teleportation, and with it are allowed to make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1. However, as they are a combined unit with the Drop Pod, but nowhere did it state that they can grant Rite of Teleportation to their transport, then they cannot make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1, as their Transport does not have that rule and Rite of Teleportation is not conferred upon it as the Drop Pod is not part of the Detachment.

Also, I don't know if anyone posted an exerpt, but does it state anywhere in the rulebook that a unit embarked on a transport in Deepstrike Reserve is actually IN Deepstrike Reserve? This is different from making a roll for the entire unit, as if the Grey Knight Unit is not physically in the reserve, Rite of Teleportation doesn't even kick in.

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

I finally made it home to check my rule books. According to C:SM pg 158 :


Now the Arriving from Reserves rule (from BRB pg 135):


And now Rites of Teleportation (I don't own C:GK, so this is take from BattleScribe. Make of that what you will):



Based on the RAW, I'm going to agree that a Drop Pod in a Nemesis Strike Force could roll for reserves on turn one. So now my question is, how did he get Drop Pods? They aren't a dedicated transport for anything in the NSF, so they had to be taken as Fast Attack in an Allied Detachment if the lists were battleforged. Did your opponent have an HQ and Troop choice for each Drop Pod used?

That line of thinking is incorrect as without Rite of Teleportation, not even Grey Knights can make the reserve roll.

Allow me to restate, clarifying items that confused you.


All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.



Rites of Teleportation does not need to be conferred to the Drop Pod. All that needs to be conferred is the Reserves Roll. The Combined Unit rules allow the Grey Knight unit to roll for the Combined Unit.

axisofentropy wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

This is compelling. Anyone else contest?

Easily.

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

col_impact wrote:
The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

This is correct, but we already covered it.

col_impact wrote:
The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

So far so good.

col_impact wrote:
The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

To be proper, the Grey Knight unit receives the option to roll reserves on turn 1.

col_impact wrote:
Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

True.

col_impact wrote:
If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

And here we jump over a couple facts. The Grey Knight unit is listed as receiving the benefit, not the combined unit any Grey Knight is in, and that is part of the problem with this approach. It is considering one part of this combined unit to provide its bonuses without permission, either in basic or as yet quoted in Advanced, to apply it to a combined unit.

Now, the Drop Pod gets around this because it is carrying the unit, so its rules are allowed to come in to play for this as it carries whatever unit is inside it. The Grey Knight unit is not noted for having done this.

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

Not really. It is PART of a Combined Unit in Reserves.

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight receives a Reserve Roll on turn one.

But only noted for its unit, not noted for anything else connected with it such as its Transport or any Combined Unit.

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

Except its not allowed to activate the early Reserve Roll for the combined unit or Transport that is carrying the unit.

No permission, no access.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

Since it is carrying the unit and the unit is not allowed to transfer this benefit to its transport, it definitely needs the Rites.

col_impact wrote:
The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

For the unit itself, yes. Not ever everything connected to it, and that is the difference.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

Not really. It is PART of a Combined Unit in Reserves.

Incorrect. The Grey Knight is in Reserves and in a Combined Unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

Except its not allowed to activate the early Reserve Roll for the combined unit or Transport that is carrying the unit.

No permission, no access.

Incorrect. Clearly stated in the Combined Unit rule.

col_impact wrote:

That line of thinking is incorrect as without Rite of Teleportation, not even Grey Knights can make the reserve roll.

Allow me to restate, clarifying items that confused you.


All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

And let me restate the items confusing you:

- How does the Drop Pod roll for Reserves on the First Turn if it does not use Rites of Teleportation?
- If not, it means that it must require it to do so. Does this mean the Drop Pod part of the Grey Knight's NSF detachment despite having an invalid faction AND being part of another Detachment?

Whether or not the Grey Knights can make the roll is irrelevant. As long as one part of their combined unit cannot do something, the entire unit cannot.

I will concede though that the Grey Knight Units are in Deep Strike, as i found a page that mentions it (forgot which one though but it was in the reserve section).

EDIT: Charistoph basically said everything I did. but with far more sass.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

Since it is carrying the unit and the unit is not allowed to transfer this benefit to its transport, it definitely needs the Rites.

Incorrect. No rule prevents arriving from reserves on turn 1. It's just Reserve Rolls are hard to come by. They normally only start being doled out on turn 2.

The Drop is not required to have Rites of Teleportation to arrive from reserves on turn 1. All that the Drop Pod requires is a Reserves Roll.

The Grey Knight provides the Reserves Roll per the Combined Unit rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

That line of thinking is incorrect as without Rite of Teleportation, not even Grey Knights can make the reserve roll.

Allow me to restate, clarifying items that confused you.


All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

And let me restate the items confusing you:

- How does the Drop Pod roll for Reserves on the First Turn if it does not use Rites of Teleportation?

The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to supply the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit (of the Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit).

Actually the exact wording of "Rites of Teleportation" states that "Instead of", which means that it is indeed an Advanced Rule since it specifically has to override the normal Reserve rules.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Actually the exact wording of "Rites of Teleportation" states that "Instead of", which means that it is indeed an Advanced Rule since it specifically has to override the normal Reserve rules.

There is no rule in the BRB which prevents units from arriving from Reserves on turn 1. Provided a unit can somehow have a Reserve Roll made on its behalf it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. A Reserves Roll is all that is required.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Grey Knight unit gets the required Reserve Roll from Rites of Teleportation and he is permitted to make the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

For the unit itself, yes. Not ever everything connected to it, and that is the difference.

The Combined Unit rules disagree with you.

Now I don't have my book with me to confirm this, but I seem to remember that Rights of Teleportation specifies that the units must arrive using some form of teleportation.

Can anyone check this?

Jedly wrote:
Now I don't have my book with me to confirm this, but I seem to remember that Rights of Teleportation specifies that the units must arrive using some form of teleportation.

Can anyone check this?

Negative ... unit must merely be in DSR.

Since I've been reading and following this thread all day, I figured I would actually crawl out from under my rock and post something.

I believe niv-mizzet has got this the most correct. GW probably didn't know what they were writing. However, their stupidity or laziness does not change what the rule says. He is right "and/or" is giving the reader permission to read it as "and" or "or". I do not think that was their intention, but ya know, dumb people do dumb things and that's one of them. I can choose to read the sentence as "In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character/Transport vehicle." or "In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle." If I read it as "or" that has given me permission to pick the unit. It does also give me the option of choosing the IC if their is one, or the transport vehicle. Following this rule as written, a GK libby brought as part of a NSF can in fact cause a unit of lets say Tempestus Scions, to arrive turn one, because I am allowed to roll one reserve roll for the IC, and apply the result to both units.

My thought is that they meant to write the sentence as "In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character and/or Transport vehicle."

Unfortunately for us, they did not.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules prevent rolling for Reserves by virtue of not allowing them to be rolled in the first place. In order to roll Reserves on Turn 1, an Advanced Rules is needed to give permission to roll Reserves at this point. It is not an active restriction, but a passive restriction. Much like Charging in the Shooting Phase or Movement Phase. You are not prevented from doing so, but you are not allowed to, either.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

Not really. It is PART of a Combined Unit in Reserves.

Incorrect. The Grey Knight is in Reserves and in a Combined Unit.

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

See, it is part of a Combined unit in Reserves, but only for the rolling. Still nothing about granting the rules, benefits, or bonuses across the combined unit. Once they are put together, you technically are not allowed to separate them again (at least once deployment is complete, any way).

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

Except its not allowed to activate the early Reserve Roll for the combined unit or Transport that is carrying the unit.

No permission, no access.

Incorrect. Clearly stated in the Combined Unit rule.

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

I don't see where it says that it can use any Reserves bonus rules for the Transport it is in a combined unit with. I do not see how they are sharing rules. I see that they roll for both together, but nothing about using the Embarked's Reserves rules to modify when or how this roll is made.

How is this any different from a Charge?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
All that is required for a unit to arrive from Reserves on turn one is a Reserves Roll. The Drop Pod is not required to have Rites of Teleportation.

Since it is carrying the unit and the unit is not allowed to transfer this benefit to its transport, it definitely needs the Rites.

Incorrect. No rule prevents arriving from reserves on turn 1. It's just Reserve Rolls are hard to come by. They normally only start being doled out on turn 2.

The Drop is not required to have Rites of Teleportation to arrive from reserves on turn 1. All that the Drop Pod requires is a Reserves Roll.

The Grey Knight provides the Reserves Roll per the Combined Unit rule.

But neither the Reserves rules nor the Rites of Teleportation state this. Rites of Teleportation is only for the unit, not for combined units or the unit's Transports. Reserves rules do not state you can use a unit's special Reserves rules on a Transport that is carrying them.

col_impact wrote:The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to supply the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit (of the Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit).

Spoiler:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

That does not state anything about it allowing to supply an Advanced Reserve Roll to its combined unit.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules prevent rolling for Reserves by virtue of not allowing them to be rolled in the first place. In order to roll Reserves on Turn 1, an Advanced Rules is needed to give permission to roll Reserves at this point. It is not an active restriction, but a passive restriction. Much like Charging in the Shooting Phase or Movement Phase. You are not prevented from doing so, but you are not allowed to, either.

You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf the Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1.

The Drop Pod does not itself need Rites of Teleportation; the Drop Pod only needs a Reserve Roll somehow.

Fortunately, the Grey Knight unit gets a Reserve Roll from the Rites of Teleportation.

The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to make the roll for the Combined Unit. Fortunately, the Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

Since the Drop Pod now has a Reserve Roll made on its behalf, if the roll is successful, the Combined Unit will arrive together from Deep Strike Reserve.

 EnTyme wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

I finally made it home to check my rule books. According to C:SM pg 158 :

Spoiler:

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserve. At the beginning of your first turn, half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally. Once a Drop Pod lands, all passengers must disembark and no models can embark for the rest of the game.

Now the Arriving from Reserves rule (from BRB pg 135):

Spoiler:

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a d6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

And now Rites of Teleportation (I don't own C:GK, so this is take from BattleScribe. Make of that what you will):

Spoiler:

Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Detachment can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

Based on the RAW, I'm going to agree that a Drop Pod in a Nemesis Strike Force could roll for reserves on turn one. So now my question is, how did he get Drop Pods? They aren't a dedicated transport for anything in the NSF, so they had to be taken as Fast Attack in an Allied Detachment if the lists were battleforged. Did your opponent have an HQ and Troop choice for each Drop Pod used?

He had allies. Blood angels. He bought 3 5 man tac units all with drop pods, and a librarian, and 2 extra drop pods. It dosent matter, I have already refused to play him again with that cheeze.

2 drop pods with 2 ten man squads of grey knights came down between 6 units, he did 3 novas (it could have been 4, but everything was dead) and that was basically game. I dont want to have to run coteaz and a culexus assassin in every list to avoid BS like this.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules prevent rolling for Reserves by virtue of not allowing them to be rolled in the first place. In order to roll Reserves on Turn 1, an Advanced Rules is needed to give permission to roll Reserves at this point. It is not an active restriction, but a passive restriction. Much like Charging in the Shooting Phase or Movement Phase. You are not prevented from doing so, but you are not allowed to, either.

You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

Fine, if I am incorrect, show me in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod may make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1.

See, lack of permission is a restriction in permissive ruleset.

Are we restricted from Charging in the Movement Phase and Shooting Phase? The answer is yes. Why? Because we do not have permission to do so. Are Drop Pods able to roll Reserves on Turn 1? Not with any Basic rules, but only with Advanced rules.

col_impact wrote:
If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf the Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1.

That is true, and it requires an Advanced rule to access it.

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does not itself need Rites of Teleportation; the Drop Pod only needs a Reserve Roll somehow.

It needs Rites of Teleportation, or similar, to receive access to that Reserve Roll somehow. We are not permitted to give the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll of Rites of Teleportation, though, nor to include it in its affects.

col_impact wrote:
Fortunately, the Grey Knight unit gets a Reserve Roll from the Rites of Teleportation.

Not in argument, but only part of the combined unit has it, not all, nor does it grant it beyond the units of the Detachment. And that is the problem.

col_impact wrote:
The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to make the roll for the Combined Unit. Fortunately, the Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

No, it does not. No where does it state that one unit makes it for the entire unit. It simply states that one roll is made for all. No rules are stated for situations where one part of the combined unit may have access to other rules, especially when it is being carried by the other part of the combined unit.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

Correct, other than basic rules do not allow rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. So Advanced rules are needed to do it.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules do not prevent rolling for Reserves on Turn 1. The only thing that is required for a unit to arrive from reserves on turn 1 is a Reserves Roll. Under normal circumstances these are just hard to get on turn 1 since the Basic Rules start handing out Reserve Rolls on Turn 2, but no rule exists to prevent a turn 1 Reserves Roll if it is somehow acquired.

Incorrect. The Basic Rules prevent rolling for Reserves by virtue of not allowing them to be rolled in the first place. In order to roll Reserves on Turn 1, an Advanced Rules is needed to give permission to roll Reserves at this point. It is not an active restriction, but a passive restriction. Much like Charging in the Shooting Phase or Movement Phase. You are not prevented from doing so, but you are not allowed to, either.

You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

Fine, if I am incorrect, show me in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod may make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1.

See, lack of permission is a restriction in permissive ruleset.

No. You must show in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod that has a Reserve Roll cannot use it turn 1. You will be unable to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf the Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1.

That is true, and it requires an Advanced rule to access it.

Nope. No Advanced rule required to access it. The Drop Pod just needs a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf turn 1. The basic Reserve Roll rule works fine. Roll a D6 and on a 3+ come in from Reserve. Drop Pod can then exercise abilities it already has and meets no restrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does not itself need Rites of Teleportation; the Drop Pod only needs a Reserve Roll somehow.

It needs Rites of Teleportation, or similar, to receive access to that Reserve Roll somehow. We are not permitted to give the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll of Rites of Teleportation, though, nor to include it in its affects.

Wrong again. The Combined Unit rule allows the GK unit to make a Reserve Roll for the Comined Unit. The Drop Pod does not need Rites of Teleportation since no rule is actively restricting arrival from reserves on turn 1. All it needs is a Reserve Roll which the GK unit provides via the Combined Unit rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Fortunately, the Grey Knight unit gets a Reserve Roll from the Rites of Teleportation.

Not in argument, but only part of the combined unit has it, not all, nor does it grant it beyond the units of the Detachment. And that is the problem.

Which is fine - there is no problem. The Drop Pod has no need of the Rites of Teleportation. It only needs a basic Reserve Roll on turn 1 which the GK unit provides via the Combined Unit rule.

The problem your argument has is that there is no rule actively taking away the ability to come in from reserves on turn 1, only the scarcity of Reserve Rolls. Luckily, the GK unit provides one for its Combined Unit. Absolutely no Advanced rules are required for the Drop Pod to arrive turn 1, just a Reserve Roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to make the roll for the Combined Unit. Fortunately, the Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

No, it does not. No where does it state that one unit makes it for the entire unit. It simply states that one roll is made for all. No rules are stated for situations where one part of the combined unit may have access to other rules, especially when it is being carried by the other part of the combined unit.

As you agree, the GK unit makes one roll for the Combined Unit. This works fine. The Drop Pod only needed to have a Reserve Roll made for it, which the GK unit does, as you note. There are no rules in effect to actively prevent the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on Turn 1 so once the Drop Pod has the Reserve Roll made for it and it succeeds, the Combined Unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, having met absolutely no restrictions from doing just that.

Again, you need to find an actual rule in the BRB that restricts arriving from reserves on turn 1 or prove that the Drop Pod is not part of the Combined Unit. Otherwise my argument wins out. I have traced a clear chain of permission and you have utterly failed to show a rule that actively prevents units that have Reserve Rolls from arriving from reserves on turn 1. Until you show an actual rule that restricts the Drop Pod from arriving on turn one, the Drop Pod has no need to inherit any Advanced rules. The Drop Pod, as I have brought up many times, only requires the Reserve Roll that the GK unit provides for the Combined Unit.

 Orock wrote:

He had allies. Blood angels. He bought 3 5 man tac units all with drop pods, and a librarian, and 2 extra drop pods. It dosent matter, I have already refused to play him again with that cheeze.

2 drop pods with 2 ten man squads of grey knights came down between 6 units, he did 3 novas (it could have been 4, but everything was dead) and that was basically game. I dont want to have to run coteaz and a culexus assassin in every list to avoid BS like this.

Then the list had to be Unbound. The Allied Detachment only allows 1 FA choice, so he would have had to bring another HQ and another troop choice in order to have two. If the lists were supposed to be Battleforged, his was illegal. Not that it matters if you already said you wouldn't play with him anymore. Honestly, even if the whole situation was legal per RAW, the whole situation obviously goes against the idea of fair play. If your only response to a complaint from another player is "Well there's no rule against it", you are probably a jackhole anyway.

It would appear that the combined reserve units paragraph views multiple units that come in at the same time as multiple units.

If you have unit A with attached Independent Character B riding in Transport Vehicle C in reserves, they are Combined Reserve Units D.

But the rules do not ever say you roll for Combined Reserve Units D.

They say you roll for Unit A and/or Independent Character B/ Transport Vehicle C.

However whichever you roll for, whether it be Unit A and Independent Character B/ Transport Vehicle C, just Unit A or Independent Character B/ Transport Character C the result is Combined Reserve Units D arrives from reserves.

If I roll a reserves roll for Unit A, I roll a reserves roll for Unit A, not Combined Reserve Units D.

Combined Reserve Units D has no special rules, at all, it is not a unit. it's more akin to a formation with a special rule allowing multiple units to share a single reserves roll. I don't think that was the writers intention at all, but that's how they wrote it.

Charistoph, I feel like you are getting hung up on Transport Vehicle B not having a special rule, and that the special rule from Unit A must transfer for it to work, but that's not how the Combined Reserve Units paragraph reads.

As it reads, you only roll for Transport Vehicle C if you so choose, if you choose to, then yes, absolutely, it needs the rule. But if you choose not to roll for Transport Vehicle C, then you don't roll for it and therefore it has no need of a special rule. That seems counter intuitive, but that's what the rule says.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

Fine, if I am incorrect, show me in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod may make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1.

See, lack of permission is a restriction in permissive ruleset.

No. You must show in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod that has a Reserve Roll cannot use it turn 1. You will be unable to.

That is NOT what I've been saying, though. I have been saying that a Drop Pod does not have access to the Reserve Roll on Turn 1 through Basic rules. This is because the Basic rules only allow for Reserves Rolls on Turn 2, not Turn 1. So, Advanced Rules are required to provide the Reserve Roll on Turn 1.

That is different kettle of fish from being prevented from using a Reserve Roll that becomes available on Turn 1.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf the Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1.

That is true, and it requires an Advanced rule to access it.

Nope. No Advanced rule required to access it. The Drop Pod just needs a Reserve Roll made for it on its behalf turn 1. The basic Reserve Roll rule works fine. Roll a D6 and on a 3+ come in from Reserve. Drop Pod can then exercise abilities it already has and meets no restrictions.

Yes, it requires an Advanced rule since the Basic rule does not allow for Reserve Rolls on Turn 1. The Advanced Rule is what provides that access.

If you think otherwise, review the Reserves rules and quote the section that states that a unit may be rolled for on Turn 1.

The ability for Drop Pods to come in on Turn 1 without even rolling for Reserves is an Advanced rule, remember?

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does not itself need Rites of Teleportation; the Drop Pod only needs a Reserve Roll somehow.

It needs Rites of Teleportation, or similar, to receive access to that Reserve Roll somehow. We are not permitted to give the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll of Rites of Teleportation, though, nor to include it in its affects.

Wrong again. The Combined Unit rule allows the GK unit to make a Reserve Roll for the Comined Unit. The Drop Pod does not need Rites of Teleportation since no rule is actively restricting arrival from reserves on turn 1. All it needs is a Reserve Roll which the GK unit provides via the Combined Unit rules.

You have quoted nothing that allows this to be applied to any combined unit. The rule quoted earlier only applies to the units themselves. As such, we have no permission to share it any more than Deep Strike itself. Nor do we have permission to ignore the part of a combined unit that does not have the capacity any more than we can ignore a model that fired a Heavy Weapon at the beginning of the Assault Phase.

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Fortunately, the Grey Knight unit gets a Reserve Roll from the Rites of Teleportation.

Not in argument, but only part of the combined unit has it, not all, nor does it grant it beyond the units of the Detachment. And that is the problem.

Which is fine - there is no problem. The Drop Pod has no need of the Rites of Teleportation. It only needs a basic Reserve Roll on turn 1 which the GK unit provides via the Combined Unit rule.

The problem your argument has is that there is no rule actively taking away the ability to come in from reserves on turn 1, only the scarcity of Reserve Rolls. Luckily, the GK unit provides one for its Combined Unit. Absolutely no Advanced rules are required for the Drop Pod to arrive turn 1, just a Reserve Roll.

No, there is no problem with my argument because you do not understand it, as I have demonstrated it above. The Grey Knights have a rule allowing to roll, but not the Drop Pod. The Drop Pod is carrying the Grey Knights, not the other way around. The rule the Grey Knights have do not grant the benefits to their carrying Transport like Infiltration and Scout do (and those only work for Dedicated Transports).

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
The Combined Unit rule allows the Grey Knight unit to make the roll for the Combined Unit. Fortunately, the Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

No, it does not. No where does it state that one unit makes it for the entire unit. It simply states that one roll is made for all. No rules are stated for situations where one part of the combined unit may have access to other rules, especially when it is being carried by the other part of the combined unit.

As you agree, the GK unit makes one roll for the Combined Unit. This works fine. The Drop Pod only needed to have a Reserve Roll made for it, which the GK unit does, as you note. There are no rules in effect to actively prevent the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on Turn 1 so once the Drop Pod has the Reserve Roll made for it and it succeeds, the Combined Unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve, having met absolutely no restrictions from doing just that.

Again, you need to find an actual rule in the BRB that restricts arriving from reserves on turn 1 or prove that the Drop Pod is not part of the Combined Unit. Otherwise my argument wins out. I have traced a clear chain of permission and you have utterly failed to show a rule that actively prevents units that have Reserve Rolls from arriving from reserves on turn 1. Until you show an actual rule that restricts the Drop Pod from arriving on turn one, the Drop Pod has no need to inherit any Advanced rules. The Drop Pod, as I have brought up many times, only requires the Reserve Roll that the GK unit provides for the Combined Unit.

I have a rule that Drop Pods are not natively allowed to roll Reserves until Turn 2. That's Basic Reserves rules right there. If they were part of a detachment that granted them the ability to roll on Turn 1, there would be no problem, but they are not noted as such. Nor does the Grey Knights' rule grant this ability to Transports they embark upon. It only allows the units from that detachment to do so, and the combined unit in question is not completely from that detachment nor granted leave to share benefits like ICs are.

EnTyme wrote:

 Orock wrote:

He had allies. Blood angels. He bought 3 5 man tac units all with drop pods, and a librarian, and 2 extra drop pods. It dosent matter, I have already refused to play him again with that cheeze.

2 drop pods with 2 ten man squads of grey knights came down between 6 units, he did 3 novas (it could have been 4, but everything was dead) and that was basically game. I dont want to have to run coteaz and a culexus assassin in every list to avoid BS like this.

Then the list had to be Unbound. The Allied Detachment only allows 1 FA choice, so he would have had to bring another HQ and another troop choice in order to have two. If the lists were supposed to be Battleforged, his was illegal. Not that it matters if you already said you wouldn't play with him anymore. Honestly, even if the whole situation was legal per RAW, the whole situation obviously goes against the idea of fair play. If your only response to a complaint from another player is "Well there's no rule against it", you are probably a jackhole anyway.

I think he used a CAD for the allied Blood Angels detachment. Perfectly legal. Just because a detachment is allied, does not always make it an Allied Detachment.

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You are the one who is incorrect, sir.

Provided the Drop Pod can get a reserve roll on turn 1 and it can roll successfully, it can arrive from Reserves on turn 1. There is no rule that actively restricts any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1. There is just a BRB which gives out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2, but that is not a restriction on Reserve Rolls that manage to be given out on turn 1.

Fine, if I am incorrect, show me in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod may make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1.

See, lack of permission is a restriction in permissive ruleset.

No. You must show in the Basic Rules where a Drop Pod that has a Reserve Roll cannot use it turn 1. You will be unable to.

That is NOT what I've been saying, though. I have been saying that a Drop Pod does not have access to the Reserve Roll on Turn 1 through Basic rules. This is because the Basic rules only allow for Reserves Rolls on Turn 2, not Turn 1. So, Advanced Rules are required to provide the Reserve Roll on Turn 1.

That is different kettle of fish from being prevented from using a Reserve Roll that becomes available on Turn 1.

The Drop Pod does have access to the Reserve Roll on turn 1. The Grey Knight provides the Drop Pod with the Reserve Roll per the Combined Unit rule. The GK unit makes the Reserve Roll on its behalf. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

The Drop Pod does not need any Advanced Rule to be able to arrive turn 1. The Reserve Roll is all that is needed.

Reserve Rolls are defined as . .



Normally the Reserve Rolls are handed out "at the start of your second turn". The GK unit, however, is able to provide one for the Combine Unit on turn one. If the Reserve Roll is successful, the Combined Unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one, facing no restrictions.

There is no rule that prevents the Reserve Roll from applying to the Drop Pod. There is no rule which states that units cannot arrive from Reserves on turn one. There is only a rule which hands out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2. The Reserve Rolls themselves are what provide the permission to arrive from Reserves. If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll it can arrive from reserves on whichever turn it happens to be. The GK unit provides the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll on turn one as part of the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.


Charistophe, you need to quit fuddling around and provide an actual restriction that would prevent a Drop Pod from arriving on turn one that is legally provided a Reserve Roll on turn one. If you cannot, my argument wins. In fact, it's becoming more and more obvious in this thread that you have already lost.

 EnTyme wrote:

 Orock wrote:

He had allies. Blood angels. He bought 3 5 man tac units all with drop pods, and a librarian, and 2 extra drop pods. It dosent matter, I have already refused to play him again with that cheeze.

2 drop pods with 2 ten man squads of grey knights came down between 6 units, he did 3 novas (it could have been 4, but everything was dead) and that was basically game. I dont want to have to run coteaz and a culexus assassin in every list to avoid BS like this.

Then the list had to be Unbound. The Allied Detachment only allows 1 FA choice, so he would have had to bring another HQ and another troop choice in order to have two. If the lists were supposed to be Battleforged, his was illegal. Not that it matters if you already said you wouldn't play with him anymore. Honestly, even if the whole situation was legal per RAW, the whole situation obviously goes against the idea of fair play. If your only response to a complaint from another player is "Well there's no rule against it", you are probably a jackhole anyway.

why would it have to be an allied detachment and not a second CAD?

...or any other detachment.

EnTyme I think yo uare stuck in 6th; "Allies" do not have to use the Allied Detachment.

A topic that has been discussed many times before.

Your friend is playing it correctly; with NSF drop pods have all a chance to enter on turn 1.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...or any other detachment.

EnTyme I think yo uare stuck in 6th; "Allies" do not have to use the Allied Detachment.

I actually never played 6th. Just misinterpreted the rules, I guess. Why would you ever use an Allied Detachment, then?

 EnTyme wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
...or any other detachment.

EnTyme I think yo uare stuck in 6th; "Allies" do not have to use the Allied Detachment.

I actually never played 6th. Just misinterpreted the rules, I guess. Why would you ever use an Allied Detachment, then?

you wanted an HQ more than a Troops choice, Allied is better.

Not to get off topic;

Allied Detachment Troops are also Objective Secured, and have smaller requirements. If you're taking an additional detachment to have access to something specific and don't want to pay much "tax" on it, Allied Detachments are the way to go.

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does have access to the Reserve Roll on turn 1. The Grey Knight provides the Drop Pod with the Reserve Roll per the Combined Unit rule. The GK unit makes the Reserve Roll on its behalf. The Drop Pod is part of the Combined Unit.

Nothing quoted so far specifically allows the Embarked Grey Knights unit to give their Reserves Roll bonus to their Transport, Drop Pod or not. This is an assumption based on the fact that they roll together. No permission is given to share rules across the combined unit, and the Grey Knights' rule is only for that unit.

col_impact wrote:
The Drop Pod does not need any Advanced Rule to be able to arrive turn 1. The Reserve Roll is all that is needed.

The ability to make a Reserves Roll on Turn 1 IS an Advanced Rule. The Basic rule does not give permission to make such a Roll before Turn 2.

col_impact wrote:
Reserve Rolls are defined as . .

Spoiler:

roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls.
If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

The roll itself is not in issue, it is the timing permission that needs to be addressed. And the basic rule is:

So, to repeat myself, Turn 1 Reserve Rolls are an Advanced Rule. It adds permission to start rolling for Reserves earlier than normal, just like moving in the Assault Phase without Charging, Piling In, or Falling Back is an Advanced Rule.

col_impact wrote:
Normally the Reserve Rolls are handed out "at the start of your second turn". The GK unit, however, is able to provide one for the Combine Unit on turn one. If the Reserve Roll is successful, the Combined Unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one, facing no restrictions.

Nothing quoted supports this assertion. Neither "combined unit" or "transport" is ever mentioned in the detachment rule. You are assuming that one part of the combined unit can roll for all of it, but the rules state they are rolled for together.

col_impact wrote:
There is no rule that prevents the Reserve Roll from applying to the Drop Pod. There is no rule which states that units cannot arrive from Reserves on turn one. There is only a rule which hands out Reserve Rolls starting on turn 2. The Reserve Rolls themselves are what provide the permission to arrive from Reserves. If the Drop Pod can get a Reserve Roll it can arrive from reserves on whichever turn it happens to be. The GK unit provides the Drop Pod the Reserve Roll on turn one as part of the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

Sure there is, lack of permission. I've said it a dozen times by now and you have not addressed it with any proper quote. And Embarked unit does not have basic permission to independently roll for their Transport, but they roll together.

col_impact wrote:
Charistophe, you need to quit fuddling around and provide an actual restriction that would prevent a Drop Pod from arriving on turn one that is legally provided a Reserve Roll on turn one. If you cannot, my argument wins. In fact, it's becoming more and more obvious in this thread that you have already lost.

Well, maybe if you actually understood my case, you would actually address it instead of fuddling around with pointless details that I never presented. I never said Drop Pods are denied the ability to do a Turn 1 Reserve Roll, I said that they do not have permission to make one. There is a difference.

Basic Rules:
Reserve Rolls start being applied on Turn 2. No permission to roll on Turn 1.
Transports do not receive the rules or benefits of the rules of the Embarked Units, but the Transport's rules may affect them while Embarked.

Advanced Rules:
Half an army's Drop Pods (rounded up) may automatically come in on Turn 1. The rest roll for Reserves as normal. Normal would be the Basic rule of rolling for Reserves on Turn 2.
Infiltrate provides the ability for a unit to Infiltrate with their Dedicated Transport.
Units in the Grey Knight detachment in question may roll for Reserves Turn 1. No permission is granted to share this with any Transport, dedicated or not.

The OP asked for a way to prevent this, this is the way to prevent it. Separate out the permissions and apply them as they come. While part of a combined unit is granted permission to roll on Turn 1, it only applies to itself, and not any Transport carrying it. No permission is provided for on portion of the "combined unit" to roll for all of it. If it was the Transport had the rule and was carrying the Grey Knights, it would be a different story, since they carry the Grey Knights, not the other way around.

Alright. That does make sense. Sorry to temporarily derail the thread here. Back to the topic at hand, and to reiterate my previous statement, what your opponent does seem to be legal based on RAW, but I do strongly feel that it violates the intent of the Rites of Teleportation rules, and in any case, it certainly violates the concept of fair play. If you are exploiting a gap in the rules at the expense of the other player, you have no right to complain if/when you have no one left to play against. Don't be TFG.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the
Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly,
you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which
case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit,
roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about - it says you can roll for the unit OR IC OR the transport.

So if he rolls for the GK unit he is allowed to do so turn 1.

Okay Charistoph... I'm going to walk you through this nice and slow:

Step 1: Choose army list.
The player selects a Nemesis Strike Force for Grey Knights and a Space Marine CAD for Marines, buying lots of Drop Pods, including some as just empty Drop Pods that are NOT dedicated transports. Some of the Grey Knights purchased for the Nemesis Strike Force do not normally have the ability to start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, but could start in a transport.

Step 2: After determining mission and whatnot and starting the game, choose which forces will be held in Reserves, declaring which of those forces will be in Deep Strike Reserves, and declaring which units are Combined Units.
This is simple too. The Drop Pod, through its special rule, MUST start the game in Deep Strike Reserves. It's at this time that the rules ask you to create combined units. The player declares that a Grey Knight squad will be embarked upon one of the empty Drop Pods, which means that the two are a Combined Unit. Two units still exist in Reserves (the Drop Pod, and the Grey Knights), but they are a Combined Unit. The rule quoted right at the beginning of this thread shows how when one of them succeeds at a reserve roll, both will enter. This is required, as without this rule, all transports and independent characters would have to pass Reserve Rolls separately.

Step 3: After start of game, on the player's first turn, they perform the Drop Pod Assault
The player counts up all their Drop Pods, and chooses half to arrive immediately, without having to make a Reserve Roll. If the player wishes, they can simply choose some of their Drop Pods containing Grey Knights to come in around this time, but for sake of argument let's say he doesn't choose any. The remaining Drop Pods will be arriving "normally", which means they will follow the rules for making Reserve Rolls and entering via Deep Strike.

Step 4: Combined Units for Drop Pod Assault
Here's a minor issue in the way you're arguing this. You're saying that you have to roll as a Combined Unit, and that Special Rules don't transfer over. You're right about the Special Rules, but wrong about having to roll for Combined Units. You CAN have just one part of a Combined Unit make the transition from being a unit in Reserves to being a unit that will be entering the battlefield by either Outflank, Deep Strike, or Regular Reserves. In fact, it's a necessity for Drop Pod Assault to work at all. You see, the units INSIDE the Drop Pod don't have the Drop Pod Assault special rule! By "if any piece can't enter, none can enter" line of thinking, only an empty Drop Pod can arrive on Turn 1 using Drop Pod Assault. However, due to Combined Units, since the Drop Pod has "succeeded", both it AND the unit it's combined with are said to succeed. The unit inside never gain Drop Pod Assault special rule (and, like you said, you'll never find a rule that says this happens), but comes along for the ride anyways. By thinking "you only make a roll for the Drop Pod", then you're violating the "and/or" part of the rules. The "and/or" has been argued to death now, and if you don't accept how the language works here, I cannot help you.

Step 5: Turn 1 Reserve Rolls occur
Okay, nothing prevents a unit from arrive from Reserves on Turn 1. It's just that normally, you can't make Reserve Rolls on Turn 1. If this was impossible, neither the Drop Pods from Drop Pod Assault or the Grey Knights from Rites of Teleportation could ever arrive on Turn 1. The Grey Knight units get to make Reserve Rolls at this point due to their special rule, and the Drop Pods by their special rule. Normally fine, since most models taking advantage of this are units without transports that are in Deep Strike Reserves, or are Transports arriving without needing to roll. The rules only state that, under normal circumstances, you only make Reserve Rolls starting on Turn 2 or later.

Step 6: Combined Units for Rites of Teleportation
The player can choose to make a reserve roll for the Grey Knights OR the Drop Pod OR for the total sum of the Combined Unit. Again, the Drop Pod and the Combined Unit as a whole are ineligible for making these Reserve Rolls, since it's the first turn and neither has special rules allowing them to make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. Since there's the "and/or", you can still choose the Grey Knights, and the Grey Knights are able to make the Reserve Roll due to their special rule. If they do this, the player is NOT making a Reserve Roll for the Drop Pod. The player is NOT making a Reserve Roll for the total sum of the Combined Unit. They are just making the Reserve Roll for the Grey Knights. If succeeded, both the Grey Knights AND the Drop Pod will successfully make the transition from Reserves to entering the battlefield, without having shared any special rule! Just like with Drop Pod Assault, neither has gained the other's special rule. It's like they're tied by a piece of string, and if one goes from Reserves to entering the battlefield, both do. The Drop Pod didn't have to pass a Reserve Roll, because the unit it was attached to was able to pass the Reserve Roll.


THE BEST ARGUMENT FOR WHY THIS WORKS:

This is the way it must work for even Drop Pod Assault to work. Without it, only empty Drop Pods could enter on Turn 1, since they do not transfer their special rule to the units inside. You also have the choice of which unit makes the roll, since only the Drop Pod has the Drop Pod Assault special rule and both the Combined Unit and the Space Marines inside do NOT have this special rule, AND the rules do not say just to roll for the Transport. It has to be because you can choose which parts of the unit make the Reserve Roll, and because if any one part makes the Reserve Roll that both count as passing, which allows you to pick the Grey Knights inside the Drop Pod, since those Grey Knights have a special rule that allows them to make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. This action, while totally non-fluffy, ridiculous, and probably not RAI, is 100% legal by the RAW.

step 6 is not actually stated anywhere.

The and/or tells you the unit combinations that are in the combined roll. It does not state you get to pick one and roll for it using only its rules then everything arrives. That is a jump in logic with no actual rules support some people in this thread keep claiming. The part you keep misquoting tells you to roll a die for all of the things to come in together listing the possible combinations of things.

It does not say you get to roll the die for one of the things, and have all the rest arrive.

It would be nice if you people, who keep making up rules that are not present would actually quote the reserve roll where it says (see below)

the action you detailed is not legal by the RAW, you are using RAI to say you can roll for any unit, then you are making up rules that are just not written saying you can use that roll to have all the rest arrive regardless of legality.

Then you are ignoring the actual rules for the reserves roll under (see below) where you are rolling for a model from the unit you are placing that then scatters as per the rules continue to address...

obviously you are not placing a GK unit and scattering it, so why are you claiming you are rolling for it.

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the
Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly,
you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which
case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit,
roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about - it says you can roll for the unit OR IC OR the transport.

So if he rolls for the GK unit he is allowed to do so turn 1.

This would be the case if you could separate them out, but since we doing them together, it would be rolling a single die for the unit AND the Transport. We are not allowed to separate them, indeed we are forbidden from doing so. It still does not address a situation where one part of the combined unit has access early.

blaktoof wrote:step 6 is not actually stated anywhere.

The and/or tells you the unit combinations that are in the combined roll. It does not state you get to pick one and roll for it using only its rules then everything arrives. That is a jump in logic with no actual rules support some people in this thread keep claiming. The part you keep misquoting tells you to roll a die for all of the things to come in together listing the possible combinations of things.

It does not say you get to roll the die for one of the things, and have all the rest arrive.

It would be nice if you people, who keep making up rules that are not present would actually quote the reserve roll where it says (see below)

the action you detailed is not legal by the RAW, you are using RAI to say you can roll for any unit, then you are making up rules that are just not written saying you can use that roll to have all the rest arrive regardless of legality.

Then you are ignoring the actual rules for the reserves roll under (see below) where you are rolling for a model from the unit you are placing that then scatters as per the rules continue to address...

obviously you are not placing a GK unit and scattering it, so why are you claiming you are rolling for it.

By that argument, if you cannot pick which unit you roll for, then Drop Pod Assault special rule doesn't work, since the combined unit together doesn't have the special rule - only the Transport does. This is fine so long as you can detail that the Transport is the ONLY unit you may select as part of the combined unit. You cannot select both, since the unit inside the Drop Pod doesn't have the special rule. Being able to choose which of the two you want for the "and/or" is the only way to allow Drop Pods to come down on turn 1 with even regular Space Marines inside them. Otherwise they'd be empty.

Charistoph wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the
Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly,
you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which
case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit,
roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about - it says you can roll for the unit OR IC OR the transport.

So if he rolls for the GK unit he is allowed to do so turn 1.

This would be the case if you could separate them out, but since we doing them together, it would be rolling a single die for the unit AND the Transport. We are not allowed to separate them, indeed we are forbidden from doing so. It still does not address a situation where one part of the combined unit has access early.

Again, you have to be able to separate them. If you can't, then Drop Pods on Turn 1 in a pure Space Marine army can't arrive with anything in them. You must be able to separate them. The unit AND the Transport does not have the Drop Pod Assault special rule. Only the Drop Pod by itself does. This would be fine if the rules let you pick and choose, or if they specified that you must select the Transport. However, they do not.



EDIT: In other words, your argument is nonsensical, as doing it in the way you are describing means other things, where the intent is even more clear, no longer function. Can Drop Pods bring in Space Marines turn 1? Yes? Then the exact same basic game rules that allow this to happen allow Grey Knights inside a Drop Pod to roll for Reserves on Turn 1.

 Yarium wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the
Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly,
you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which
case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit,
roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Not sure what everyone is arguing about - it says you can roll for the unit OR IC OR the transport.

So if he rolls for the GK unit he is allowed to do so turn 1.

This would be the case if you could separate them out, but since we doing them together, it would be rolling a single die for the unit AND the Transport. We are not allowed to separate them, indeed we are forbidden from doing so. It still does not address a situation where one part of the combined unit has access early.

Again, you have to be able to separate them. If you can't, then Drop Pods on Turn 1 in a pure Space Marine army can't arrive with anything in them. You must be able to separate them. The unit AND the Transport does not have the Drop Pod Assault special rule. Only the Drop Pod by itself does. This would be fine if the rules let you pick and choose, or if they specified that you must select the Transport. However, they do not.

That's because you ignore the fact that the Transport carries the Embarked, which allows its movement-type rules to be in affect. The Vehicle is actually doing the coming in from Reserves, not the unit alone or the unit carrying the Transport.

It does not state that the unit/IC/Transport rolls FOR the combined unit, just one die is needed for the combined unit.

Not sure if teleportation rights are given to GK HQs - but if they are then you only have to put a GK HQ into a pod with another factions unit and pod and because you can choose to roll for just the GK HQ turn 1 - he would bring the unit and the pod with him.

Charistoph wrote:
That's because you ignore the fact that the Transport carries the Embarked, which allows its movement-type rules to be in affect. The Vehicle is actually doing the coming in from Reserves, not the unit alone or the unit carrying the Transport.

It does not state that the unit/IC/Transport rolls FOR the combined unit, just one die is needed for the combined unit.

Movement rules are not in effect for units in reserves. Your argument is invalid.

The Reserve Roll is made for the Combined Unit while the units making up the Combined Unit are in Reserves (and are not subject to any movement rules).

Per the Combined Unit rule, the GK unit provides the one die needed for the Combined Unit.

The movement rules only come into effect when the Combined Unit moves from Reserves onto the battlefield which is after the permission has been granted by the Reserve Roll to arrive from Reserves.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Not sure if teleportation rights are given to GK HQs - but if they are then you only have to put a GK HQ into a pod with another factions unit and pod and because you can choose to roll for just the GK HQ turn 1 - he would bring the unit and the pod with him.

Rites of Teleportation applies to any Nemesis Strike Force unit placed in reserve to Deep Strike. While most GK units have Deep Strike, some do not, such as the Purifier Squad. The only way to place a Purifier into reserves to Deep Strike is by embarking them on a transport able to Deep Strike. Fast selection Drop Pods are such a transport, hence the reason why this subject is discussed about once every 3-4 months.

Legally, a NSF unit in a Fast selection Drop Pod can roll to enter from reserve via Deep Strike due to how rules for Rites, Battle-Brothers, and Combined Reserved Units interact. Fun fact: Drop Pods don't have the Deep Strike USR, either. They Deep Strike solely based on their Deep Strike Assault rule, allows the second half of your Drop Pods to roll to enter normally. Due to Rites, the "normal" roll to enter is shifted from 2nd turn to 1st turn. Some people don't like this, so argue against it. RAW supports it, though.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Not sure if teleportation rights are given to GK HQs - but if they are then you only have to put a GK HQ into a pod with another factions unit and pod and because you can choose to roll for just the GK HQ turn 1 - he would bring the unit and the pod with him.

Rites of Teleportation applies to any Nemesis Strike Force unit placed in reserve to Deep Strike. While most GK units have Deep Strike, some do not, such as the Purifier Squad. The only way to place a Purifier into reserves to Deep Strike is by embarking them on a transport able to Deep Strike. Fast selection Drop Pods are such a transport, hence the reason why this subject is discussed about once every 3-4 months.

Legally, a NSF unit in a Fast selection Drop Pod can roll to enter from reserve via Deep Strike due to how rules for Rites, Battle-Brothers, and Combined Reserved Units interact. Fun fact: Drop Pods don't have the Deep Strike USR, either. They Deep Strike solely based on their Deep Strike Assault rule, allows the second half of your Drop Pods to roll to enter normally. Due to Rites, the "normal" roll to enter is shifted from 2nd turn to 1st turn. Some people don't like this, so argue against it. RAW supports it, though.

SJ

I like how we just type things and say RAW supports things.

On that note, I think we've gone about as far as we're likely to here.