They are obviously very expensive, but apart from that they don't seem so bad.

So why do people hate them so much? What's so bad about them?

The big ones are that they are relatively fragile, have to spend a turn sitting around if you want to use their ability, don't have grenades so attacking anything in cover drops them to I1, and they can't punch through 2 plus armor.

It is mainly just that they are super expensive for what they do. They are too easy to take out with even the most basic troop weapons. The result is that they cannot make it into combat to do what they need to do.

They are absurdly fragile for the price as you are paying almost 3x the price of a regular SM for the same durability

Their damage is solid but very specialized (is pretty much only good against 3+ armor. doesn't do anything to 2+ and is wasted on 5+ or worse hordes) so struggle to make their points back.

Don't have any basic equipment like guns of any kind or grenades

Have a terrible special ability (blind is bad, the hoops your jump through to trigger it are bad, the position it leaves you in is bad)

Technically they are functional because they are mobile and put the hurt on in combat. But are so vastly overcosted and aren't that durable that they don't do anything meaningful in most games as you'd have to pay an arm and a leg to get the unit large enough to have some guys survive a round or two of shooting to make it into combat.

They're really only better than Raptors on the charge against MEQ outside of cover. If that isn't the most specialized thing you've heard, I don't know what to tell you.

Plus they're not as durable as Raptors for the price, AND Raptors can take Special Weapons to let them hurt targets they ordinarily couldn't in the first place.

Yeah, the lack of grenades, the low durability and the fact that their biggest trick is bad makes them a poor fast attack choice.


They are better in the daemon codex, being daemons allows them to get effected by the daemon shenanigans.

Another point that I feel is often overlooked is that they are completely irrelevant even within their own niche.
Between price, fragility and ultra-specialist equipment, their one and only role is in taking out heavy armour that has neglected cover. They are built specifically to deal with the 3+ saves that Raptors or allied Daemons aren't quite as efficient as dealing with.

But if you need to kill 3+ saves, and only have a FA slot and ~160pts to do it with, the Heldrake is simply the better option. It will kill more Marines, do so from 12" + Torrent, throw in some utility from the Vector Strike, and present an AV12 Daemonic Flier instead of a MEQ profile.

I won't call them the worst unit in the army, as that title is held by the Possessed IMO. But they are a niche unit that doesn't even have a unique niche.

I think their major weakness in the inability to deal with 2+ armor. If their lightning claws were rending I think they'd be okay. There are ways to buff their survivability.

It also hurts they are in a slot that is already crowded. Bikes, Heldrakes and spawns are some of chaos's better units. Even if they weren't over costed they have stiff competition.

They aren't bad, the angst comes from their wasted potential. They need some help actually getting into combat and like others have said need grenades. Pretty much Mozzamanx hit the nail on the head.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Another point that I feel is often overlooked is that they are completely irrelevant even within their own niche.
Between price, fragility and ultra-specialist equipment, their one and only role is in taking out heavy armour that has neglected cover. They are built specifically to deal with the 3+ saves that Raptors or allied Daemons aren't quite as efficient as dealing with.

But if you need to kill 3+ saves, and only have a FA slot and ~160pts to do it with, the Heldrake is simply the better option. It will kill more Marines, do so from 12" + Torrent, throw in some utility from the Vector Strike, and present an AV12 Daemonic Flier instead of a MEQ profile.

I won't call them the worst unit in the army, as that title is held by the Possessed IMO. But they are a niche unit that doesn't even have a unique niche.

Possessed can't be the worst because Crimson Slaughter fixes all their issues. Besides being absurdly expensive.
At least they can be OS. Warp Talons don't even have that.

I personally dont think they are out right garbage, I just think they cost too much by a tad and it is also a lot of points to make them effective i.e daemon stuff to increase inv or better deepstrike, ect..

Potential is there, I agree they need rending, they also need a safer way to DS then get into assault.

It's not bad to have a min squad of them. Pretty much as an anti-bike choice. They do mulch bikes quite nicely and bikes are not always hiding in diff terrain. The advantage over a heldrake is that they can charge the squad that's allready tied up, they can sweep or lock in combat in case of marines. The heldrake can just kill 3-4 dudes at best when they're spread out and it's not guaranteed that your bird arrives on time.

They seem quite like rough riders. People bash on them but they can function well enough to justify taking a small squad.

They're certainly not optimal, but like most jump infantry units they require a lot of finesse to use since they can't fall back on things like Jink or higher toughness like bikers can. I've seen them do decent damage in a KDK list, with all the MSU and blood tithe bonuses like FNP, my opponent often hops them behind shot-blockers and gets them into position and charges them in after the flesh hounds and other speedy stuff have already engaged the foe and finish key units off.

I feel that both Warp Talons and Possessed really need to be 2 wounds a pop for how much they're priced. This way even if they don't get to use their daemon save they at least have an easier time against bolters and the like.

They're hot garbage and right up there with mutilators and possessed for worst units in the codex. Notice how all 3 are heavily overcosted Assault units who are T4 base and 27 or 30 points per wound?

Remember when people scoffed at vanilla Marines honour guard who had a 2+, everyone had a power weapon, 2 attacks base and they could take a drop pod to ensure a turn 2 charge plus atsknf for being terrible at 25 ppm? Warp talons wish that they were that good.

The lack of scatter in csm means you risk mishaps if you're going to land within 6", and even then, blind is an initiative check, so most units only fail 33% of the time, and tau suits, who you really need to blind and would be susceptible to it, are immune.

Yes, you can get them to a 2++ with Daemons. If you're going to do that, why not use screamers, or a prince, or a D-thirster instead who are all more killy and more survivable? Any unit can be made decent with hundreds of points of support, relics and psychic powers, why start with an obviously sub-par unit?

 koooaei wrote:
bikes are not always hiding in diff terrain.

Here's the key point. If you're bringing units that need to charge outside terrain, why wouldn't I use it?
Like I said, the only thing Warp Talons do better is charging MEQ outside of cover. However, it isn't difficult to get cover. Heldrakes ignore that problem, and quite frankly I'd rather keep Raptors in combat for the opponent's turn so that they can't be shot at.

Look at it like this:
The bare minimum for Warp Talons is 160 points. 7 Raptors with two Melta Guns and MoK is 163 points, only 3 more. How does the math differ? Let us see:
1. 5 Talons charge at Tactical Marines. We will ignore Overwatch and HoW for this calculation because I don't feel like creating an actual squad to throw them at. 16 attacks on the charge means 8 hit, and 6 of those will wound. That's actually alright. THEN we get to this, ignoring Overwatch and HoW for simplicity's sake. 7 Raptors with MoK will have 29 attacks on the charge, half of those will hit for 14.5, and with half those wounding and getting through the 3+ we have 2.5 wounds done. That's significantly less, but we didn't factor in shooting. Assuming a single Frag hits two dudes, the shooting of the Raptors causes two more wounds. So 4.5 wounds in total were done by the Raptors. So far that looks a lot nicer for Warp Talons than the Raptors, but let us actually take a second and create a squad for them to fight.
2. The main loadout you might see on a Tactical Squad that was somewhat optimized in a Gladius (because you aren't honestly going to see them elsewhere) is a Plasma Gun and Grav Cannon at ten men, in a Rhino, getting us to about 190 points. We'll assume we can keep the same squads for now to get this point across. On Overwatch, for simplicity's sake, we kill one Warp Talon, and against the Raptors we score 1.5 dead Raptors, which swings to either 1 or 2. Now, with Raptor shooting you could decrease that amount dead from Overwatch if you snipe the Grav Cannon or Plasma Gun. That's already a net advantage to the Raptors. Now, the numbers stay the same for kills (slightly less because a dude died obviously), but the Tactical Squad will kill 1 Warp Talon or Raptor in return. Looking at it like this, we have 5 Raptors left and 3 Warp Talons left.
3. Now comes the tricky part. If the Tactical Squad was in COVER, only three Warp Talons get to attack, and assuming their Champ lives (just so we can get more attacks in for them to make it look better) that's 4 dead Marines. Raptors get to charge in at regular I, and that's 2 dead Marines. That didn't factor in shooting though, which actually stays surprisingly the same due to Melta Guns forcing the cover saves (dependent on what the cover is, so I assume 5+) and Bolter shots and the Frag Grenade not caring about cover for them. So looking at it like that, the Raptors inflicted 4 wounds as well: the same exact amount. I didn't even calculate how those losses would affect Overwatch either.
4. Now let us assume the Marines are hiding in the Rhino. The Warp Talons can only hit the rear armor to even potentially get glancing hits. Raptors can hit it with Melta Guns and get about a 50% to blow it up, which means something else can charge the Marines (or a better choice, the Heldrake, roasts them) or THEY can.

So that automatically makes the Warp Talons not as flexible for what the situation really needs. Cover really makes a huge difference. When Grav Bikers (assuming Combi-Grav) get into range, because it isn't difficult, they'll kill 3 Warp Talons and 4.5 Raptors, showing that a 5++ doesn't actually help that much.
Now, we could make the argument that, since we spent 190 on the Tactical Marines, we should spend about 30 more points on either squad. Now, we could always switch to MoS instead of MoK and buy the Icon giving the Raptors FNP, or we are buying a Power Weapon of some type (most likely Power Sword) and another Raptor which is about 7 points over the limit I created. Spending on the Warp Talons is more difficult because you're either buying one more Talon or a Mark. You aren't really getting a choice. In this specific case, the flexibility is better than the specific tool. At that point though, spending so many points on the Warp Talons makes you realize you could've just gotten a Heldrake, which is guaranteed to get 5-6 dudes under the Template and kill 5-6 dudes a turn.

Raptors are not fearless, so they can fail fear tests quite easilly unless you run them with lord. And they're way superior to raptors in terms of raw damage output in melee point for point. Also, the fewer models you have, the easier it is to minimize return damage, so the 10 tacticals calculations are pretty irrelevant because 10 won't strike back. Close combat is not all on all. And ideally, you have enough mobility to provide more benefical charge routes.

Terrain is not always in the right place for the enemy to hide behind. It can also force them to stay back which is a good thing for point grabbing. And i think that their main target are not marines but bikers. Marines are not very problematic to deal with for the rest of the codex.

LOL'd at failing Fear tests easily. They're LD9 with the champ and there's nothing anyone is going to care about that inflicts Fear. The fact you said Fear was a big factor shows that you're grasping at straws.

I also disproved the whole "raw damage" thing once I incorporated shooting. Flamers instead of Melta make it even worse when it comes to infantry.

Not just fear, they can also fail ld and fall back. Besides, ld9 is only for champ and there are not only a lot of mechanics to snipe out one but also to lower ld. Basically, face harlequins or dark eldar and you're ws1 all day long.
Flamers are not always usabe just because they put the targets out of range and every inch matters when it comes to charging.

Unlike mutilators it's harder to prove my point here because a batrep won't show much as i don't see much reason of spamming warp talons unlike mutilators. I still think that a small squad has a niche and can be fine.

If they fall back or get swept, the next turn the thing can be shot at. Anything that's is gonna cause them to fall back is going to kill Talons anyway since they come in MUCH smaller numbers. It isn't the advantage you're making it to be.
Don't pretend that facing Dark Eldar or Harlequins is gonna help your case either, because you're really going to lose there. I can have the Raptors striking with I5 before you even get a new Warp Talon, and Raptors striking at WS1 at the same time seems better than your one Warp Talon fending for itself. Then it would be stuck in combat, die on your turn, and the Harlequins charge again. Or the Dark Eldar do whatever; they have nothing worthwhile that causes fear.

Also you're on Jump Packs. You're fine using Flamers and then charging. A template is what, 5 inches, and there's the matter won't kill all 4-6 Marines under it? Come on.

You know, it's funny. Lately, there's been a number of threads like: "Are X really that bad?". And there are generally 2 camps which always consist of all the same people from thread to thread. One states that it's the worst unit ever and that you should never even consider using them while other group says that it might not be that bad and there is a number of situations where this units can be used effectively. Don't know, maybe it's mostly up to people rather than the unit itself. Yep, there sure is something wrong with the unit if such question comes up so often. But in most cases it's not as doom and gloom as people paint it to be.

That's the L2P argument. It is lazy and it doesn't work.

Well, people bashed on greentide for the same reason. And than Fexini appeared out of nowhere and did amazing with it in a couple of GT. Skill does matter too. So, L2P has something behind it from time to time. And you are becoming better at the game when you're running uncommon units and making them work instead of just sticking to "internet wisdom" cheeze that's supposed to be top of the heap. How are you supposed to become better when you're running easy lists and aren't inventive at all?

NOBODY bashed on Greentide, as it was arguably the only way to make regular Boyz work on that scale. That is misinformation on your end and you know it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY bashed on Greentide

orly. I remember quite well that everyone dismissed it as fluffy but not effective in a competitive game the moment it came out, than after a few tests it ended up to be quite mediocre and everyone forgot about it for a time. But than after a huge success of just a few people with it, greentide became venerated.

 koooaei wrote:
Raptors are not fearless, so they can fail fear tests quite easilly unless you run them with lord. And they're way superior to raptors in terms of raw damage output in melee point for point. Also, the fewer models you have, the easier it is to minimize return damage, so the 10 tacticals calculations are pretty irrelevant because 10 won't strike back. Close combat is not all on all. And ideally, you have enough mobility to provide more benefical charge routes.

Terrain is not always in the right place for the enemy to hide behind. It can also force them to stay back which is a good thing for point grabbing. And i think that their main target are not marines but bikers. Marines are not very problematic to deal with for the rest of the codex.

Warp Talons aren't fearless either, so that's a pointless argument.

As to minimising return damage, unless it's a strung out unit of ork boys, I rarely see units fail to get all their guys into combat once charged unless that's their plan.

10 tacticals won't strike back, they'll strike first because talons don't have grenades and any opponent who's played more than a handful of games knows to put stuff you don't want charged into terrain.

Again, this only makes them worse in comparison to heldrakes, as the heldrake is the natural predator of the bike, probably moreso than normal marines. Wounding on 3's no save to anything within 20" is way better than having to survive getting into combat and then wounding on 5's with a re-roll, no saves.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL'd at failing Fear tests easily. They're LD9 with the champ and there's nothing anyone is going to care about that inflicts Fear. The fact you said Fear was a big factor shows that you're grasping at straws.

I also disproved the whole "raw damage" thing once I incorporated shooting. Flamers instead of Melta make it even worse when it comes to infantry.

I dunno, a 25% chance to fail is harsh on units that absolutely need to be on their game to not be bad. As one of the 3 armies that actually care about fear (CSM, Orks and DE), it kinda sucks. Agree on the raptors having way more damage output though.

 koooaei wrote:
Not just fear, they can also fail ld and fall back. Besides, ld9 is only for champ and there are not only a lot of mechanics to snipe out one but also to lower ld. Basically, face harlequins or dark eldar and you're ws1 all day long.
Flamers are not always usabe just because they put the targets out of range and every inch matters when it comes to charging.

Unlike mutilators it's harder to prove my point here because a batrep won't show much as i don't see much reason of spamming warp talons unlike mutilators. I still think that a small squad has a niche and can be fine.

Again, neither unit is fearless, both are ld 9 (until the raptor champ dies anyway). There's fewer ways than before to snipe stuff out with all characters losing presicion shots at least, so I'd say that's pretty much a wash, especially since the sarge at least gets a 4+ LoS. If either unit is taking casualties, they're probably being killed to a man or rendered combat ineffective anyway.

I'd argue that it's quite easy to prove a point via batreps. Take a bunch of raptors and then replace them in the same list with equivalent points of warp talons and play the same opponent with the same list. Since both raptors and talons are in the same slot and serve the same purpose and can be made to be the same points, it should be easy if you have vassal and some opponents. Math alone shows that they're pretty rubbish, but people seem to believe small samples of anecdotal evidence instead of easily shown, repeatable math with no bias or uncertainty.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
...Or the Dark Eldar do whatever; they have nothing worthwhile that causes fear.

Also you're on Jump Packs. You're fine using Flamers and then charging. A template is what, 5 inches, and there's the matter won't kill all 4-6 Marines under it? Come on.

DE have Talos (corpsetief and dark artisan are some of their only redeeming features other than being a xeno taxi service) and a flamer is 8".

 koooaei wrote:
You know, it's funny. Lately, there's been a number of threads like: "Are X really that bad?". And there are generally 2 camps which always consist of all the same people from thread to thread. One states that it's the worst unit ever and that you should never even consider using them while other group says that it might not be that bad and there is a number of situations where this units can be used effectively. Don't know, maybe it's mostly up to people rather than the unit itself. Yep, there sure is something wrong with the unit if such question comes up so often. But in most cases it's not as doom and gloom as people paint it to be.

One group usually states that the unit in question is one of the worst units (and given that we're talking about mutilators, warp talons and possessed recently, it's a fair call. We've only got the thousand sons and Luscious to go until we can yell BINGO! and claim our prize) and that taking them in a competative list is a terrible idea since everything else does it better or there is no use for the thing that the unit does.

The other group tends to use extremely unlikely scenarios against non-competative lists to prove that not being a complete waste of points in 0.001% of games means the unit isn't bad.

Technically, both groups are right. In the right situation, said units can shine, but unfortunately, the required circumstances for this come to pass so rarely against a competative list that it is irrelevant. If talking about a casual game, then sure, take whatever models you like, that's why it's a casual game and thus outside the scope of discussion when we're specifically talking about competative lists.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, people bashed on greentide for the same reason. And than Fexini appeared out of nowhere and did amazing with it in a couple of GT. Skill does matter too. So, L2P has something behind it from time to time. And you are becoming better at the game when you're running uncommon units and making them work instead of just sticking to "internet wisdom" cheeze that's supposed to be top of the heap. How are you supposed to become better when you're running easy lists and aren't inventive at all?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY bashed on Greentide, as it was arguably the only way to make regular Boyz work on that scale. That is misinformation on your end and you know it.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
NOBODY bashed on Greentide

orly. I remember quite well that everyone dismissed it as fluffy but not effective in a competitive game the moment it came out, than after a few tests it ended up to be quite mediocre and everyone forgot about it for a time. But than after a huge success of just a few people with it, greentide became venerated.

Fxeni didn't appear out of nowhere with greentide. Yes, it was bashed when it came out, but that was before the remainder of the 7th books came out, and before the insanity that was the 7.5 books too. Given the massive swing in meta towards 4+ saves and cover in combination all d-weapons or grav guns all the time, greentide became a solid counter. What was the real secret to Fxeni's success (other than him being an incredible general) was how the VSG was ruled to work (RAW instead of RAI) and a bunch of people not being prepared for that and playing it poorly.

Greentide was a thing before Fxeni came 9th, hell, he even faced off against another greentide in that very tournament! Don't get me wrong, Fxeni did extremely well with it and he showed up quite a few people, but he did take a meta-spoiler list and his gamble payed off. I think you'll find that if you go back and read the thread about his matches and the list discussion before that, people were already aware of the power of the tide and it was more about tweaks to support it that the tide itself.

Yep, they're not fearless in the book. My mistake. Just used to seeing them in daemonkin where they are thanks to being daemons. They also open up a neat formation with a drake that is even better for daemonkin than for regular csm.

They're daemons in the CSM book. Daemon rule gives fear and 5++. Fear is not the same as fearless. Warp Talons are not fearless in either book.... They are *slightly* better in KDK because they get both Mark of Khorne and Daemon of Khorne special rules.... But they are still over costed units that aren't even the best at their niche roles.

Wait, they're not getting fearless in kdk? I've been cheated!
Anywayz, biker shredding still remains the same.

 Drasius wrote:
One group usually states that the unit in question is one of the worst units (and given that we're talking about mutilators, warp talons and possessed recently, it's a fair call. We've only got the thousand sons and Luscious to go until we can yell BINGO! and claim our prize) and that taking them in a competative list is a terrible idea since everything else does it better or there is no use for the thing that the unit does.

The other group tends to use extremely unlikely scenarios against non-competative lists to prove that not being a complete waste of points in 0.001% of games means the unit isn't bad.

Technically, both groups are right. In the right situation, said units can shine, but unfortunately, the required circumstances for this come to pass so rarely against a competative list that it is irrelevant. If talking about a casual game, then sure, take whatever models you like, that's why it's a casual game and thus outside the scope of discussion when we're specifically talking about competative lists.

[TL;DR]


That's not entirely true imho. Both camps usually agree that they are bottom of the barrel. But it seems to me that the competitive pack always assume that competitive value is all that matters. And moreso, that in a casual game you may as well play with a painted rock, because it's just for fun anyway. Win or loose...same thing. The other camp tries to find way to make them work somewhat in games where you want to take X unit for whatever reason, because playing casual lists doesn't mean you don't care about winning.

Every time there is is a thread inquiring about a bad unit, everybody immediately suggests not taking it and more often than not suggests plague marines, without exploring how you could possibly make it work. Which is good from a competitive angle. But what if you want to still win and you want to take X unit? I for one have a certain vision in mind when composing armies. Like, say I want to play Black Legion. To me that means lots of marines, termies and chosen. Termies and chosen being the posterchild bad-asses from a fluff perspective. And I don't much care about nurgle and slaanesh. I don't care if the rules are better, I don't want any of those units. If anything then I'll take khorne or tzeentch. And then there are units like the hellturkey, which can die in a fire for all I care. It took me months just to warm up to the maulerfiend, but I still won't even consider taking a forgefiend.

So, in a sense, the codex offers a whole lot less choice for that particular army. And, in my case I don't like taking allies either. So for that example Black Legion list its unmarked power armour or bust. Now I also don't want to run an all basic marine list, which might still be fun. But then I'm going in KNOWING I'm going to loose. Which is totally ok as long as your having fun. But while that black legion list will probably not be competitive in any way, I still want to win with it. And then it doesn't help me one bit to know that every other unit would be better, I need to know how to make what I have work.

If I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, then I want to know how I could possibly make them work. In that case taking them isn't a choice, they are already part of the army. So where do I take it form there? What mechanics help overcome the whole grenade thing for instance? All while knowing full well that they suck and more importantly WHY they suck. That way, I can know what I'm about to get myself into and decide whether or not to go through with it. I'm fine with loosing a game if it was a close call for example.

Of course that's all good only so long as both players have similar expectations about the game. If I brought a thousand son list to a game against a competitive player..even against csm, chances are it would get pretty ugly pretty fast lol. But yea, the competitive bunch seems to paint an image where taking things like warp talons is akin to an automatic loss, while the other guys are trying to show that isn't necessarily the case. I don't think anybody is actually saying that warp talons are going to win you games.

Raptors. You guys are so cute. They like BA ASM. Which means they are horrible.

Sure, but the point was they still suck less than Warp Talons. (And for that matter, BA ASM are still better than Raptors - at least they have ATSKNF and Furious Charge!)

That said, I kinda thought the gist of the thread was more about what you could conceivably do with them (and that's where Raptors came in - they're pretty much just better than Talons in most cases).

I've had my share of success with Talons in my KDK army... You just has to be smart about it. That's all.

Martel732 wrote:
Raptors. You guys are so cute. They like BA ASM. Which means they are horrible.

Raptors with MoN, two melta guns and three plasma pistols can do a surprising about of damage. I have an unbound raptor cult, and, although I wouldn't claim it is competitive, it doesn't fair too badly in games, I'd I've won about 50% of the games I've played with them.

How did you get three Plasma Pistols in the squad?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I've had my share of success with Talons in my KDK army... You just has to be smart about it. That's all.

Hey look, it's the L2P argument creeping its way into the thread once more!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really though, if you wanna use the Warp Talon models, just say they're Raptors and differentiate the Special Weapon ones with some molten breath or something. There's no excuse to use the rules quite frankly.

their a melee centered unit in a BRB that gaks all over cc unless yourloaded with a silly gimmick like skyhammer. so thats mainly why

I have a small squad of Warp Talons for my Daemonkin for Heldrake/Raptor tax in the Blood Host Detachment. I rarely get any good use out of them (though they did blind a Dreadknight once, then promptly died). This weekend though I'm playing 1000 pts against a Necron player. He's kinda new, and doesn't have a Decurion yet, so I'm thinking about taking my Warp Talons and using Bloodletters to call them in and eliminate their scatter. After all, Warriors are I2. Is it list tailoring? Yea, it is. Do I expect it to work outside of this game? Not really. Gonna give it a shot though since I won the models, and it was either the Talons or Melta Raptors, and I have a Soul Grinder to back them up anyway.

@ slayer-fan123 whoops, posting whilst working and not paying full attention, meant A plasma pistol for three high st low ap shots.

 JamesY wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Raptors. You guys are so cute. They like BA ASM. Which means they are horrible.

Raptors with MoN, two melta guns and three plasma pistols can do a surprising about of damage. I have an unbound raptor cult, and, although I wouldn't claim it is competitive, it doesn't fair too badly in games, I'd I've won about 50% of the games I've played with them.

How much is that squad, though?

Martel732 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Raptors. You guys are so cute. They like BA ASM. Which means they are horrible.

Raptors with MoN, two melta guns and three plasma pistols can do a surprising about of damage. I have an unbound raptor cult, and, although I wouldn't claim it is competitive, it doesn't fair too badly in games, I'd I've won about 50% of the games I've played with them.

How much is that squad, though?

In a 1k list I have that unit three times, (5 man) another with 2 flamers, a heldrake and a winged dp. Like I said I'm not claiming that they are amazing, but they can drop in and pop mcs or tanks quite nicely, so I disagree that they are horrible. It's a fun army to play with, but only 22 models, so there has been a very short game in the past.

 koooaei wrote:
Wait, they're not getting fearless in kdk? I've been cheated!
Anywayz, biker shredding still remains the same.

No, all deamon units in daemonkin should be fearless instead of having instability, this should carry over to 'Talons since they've got the same daemon rule as stuff like bloodletters in the KDK book.

Which mainly came about because you can't join mortal units to daemons normally due to instability, which would make the entire codex a shambles, so I'm fairly sure that they're fearless.

And yes, they remain a minor annoyance to bikes if they manage to survive the grav gun fire and striking last while the heldrake you could've taken would eliminate them much more easily, especially since people tend not to take much anti air anymore and CSM (and therefore heldrakes) aren't a concern when list-building.

Roknar wrote:
...

Bingo

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
They are obviously very expensive, but apart from that they don't seem so bad.

So why do people hate them so much? What's so bad about them?

Their advantages are hard to express. I wrote up an article on using them for those who want to give it a go a while back: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/warp-talons.html

The Warp Talons are extremely good at their job, but it's getting them into position long enough that presents the issue. Their price needs to come down a bit, commensurate with their ability to actually deliver the blow they promise.

The idea is to blind everyone around them so that the enemy has but two choices: snap fire into them (which is a pretty solid defense) or charge them at WS 1 (which they are completely fine with).

So from the perspective of how they are meant to work, they are REALLY nasty against Necrons and Orks (and some Tau empire units, although Blacksun Filters to protect against this) as well as any low INIT force. Their weapons are more than deadly enough to take on multiple units if they choose and they ARE daemons so the invulnerable save helps.

If they want the Warp Talons to work AS IS, then they need to give the Chaos Marines a way to drop enemy initiative or perhaps just allow a less problematic deep strike. Any Psyker power or ability that does that will make Warp Talons quite a bit better. Problematically, armies you will see at top tables will likely be posessed of excellent or at minimum pretty decent init. Not all, but a lot. And so the Warp Talons are quite good but the WAY they were envisioned to work just isnt reliable against some of the scarier forces often enough.

Still, there are ways to make it work. Read that article and it may give you some ideas.

Roknar wrote:
That's not entirely true imho. Both camps usually agree that they are bottom of the barrel. But it seems to me that the competitive pack always assume that competitive value is all that matters. And moreso, that in a casual game you may as well play with a painted rock, because it's just for fun anyway. Win or loose...same thing. The other camp tries to find way to make them work somewhat in games where you want to take X unit for whatever reason, because playing casual lists doesn't mean you don't care about winning.

Every time there is is a thread inquiring about a bad unit, everybody immediately suggests not taking it and more often than not suggests plague marines, without exploring how you could possibly make it work. Which is good from a competitive angle. But what if you want to still win and you want to take X unit? I for one have a certain vision in mind when composing armies. Like, say I want to play Black Legion. To me that means lots of marines, termies and chosen. Termies and chosen being the posterchild bad-asses from a fluff perspective. And I don't much care about nurgle and slaanesh. I don't care if the rules are better, I don't want any of those units. If anything then I'll take khorne or tzeentch. And then there are units like the hellturkey, which can die in a fire for all I care. It took me months just to warm up to the maulerfiend, but I still won't even consider taking a forgefiend.

So, in a sense, the codex offers a whole lot less choice for that particular army. And, in my case I don't like taking allies either. So for that example Black Legion list its unmarked power armour or bust. Now I also don't want to run an all basic marine list, which might still be fun. But then I'm going in KNOWING I'm going to loose. Which is totally ok as long as your having fun. But while that black legion list will probably not be competitive in any way, I still want to win with it. And then it doesn't help me one bit to know that every other unit would be better, I need to know how to make what I have work.

If I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, then I want to know how I could possibly make them work. In that case taking them isn't a choice, they are already part of the army. So where do I take it form there? What mechanics help overcome the whole grenade thing for instance? All while knowing full well that they suck and more importantly WHY they suck. That way, I can know what I'm about to get myself into and decide whether or not to go through with it. I'm fine with loosing a game if it was a close call for example.

Of course that's all good only so long as both players have similar expectations about the game. If I brought a thousand son list to a game against a competitive player..even against csm, chances are it would get pretty ugly pretty fast lol. But yea, the competitive bunch seems to paint an image where taking things like warp talons is akin to an automatic loss, while the other guys are trying to show that isn't necessarily the case. I don't think anybody is actually saying that warp talons are going to win you games.

Sort of.

The question for this thread is "Are Warp Talons really that bad?". The answer is Yes, yes they are. Same for muties, same for possessed. If the question was "I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, ... I want to know how I could possibly make them work?" then that's an entirely different matter. I'd wager that if you made a thread asking about how to get the most out of talons (fairly sure this has been done before) you get a thread with suggestions on how to make it happen, though half the responses would inevitably be "leave them on the shelf" unless you made a point to make it very clear that the list must absolutely include them. Most suggestions would inevitably revolve around Belakor as an HQ, min cultists and then a bunch of daemons with icons and a small unit of screamers with a grimoure herald. The screamers can get their 2+ re-roll from belakor via shrouding while using grimoure on the Tzeentch marked talons. A big Drone bus with nurgle herald and nurgle talons could probably also work, crushers with an icon would be handy for khornate talons and a slaaneshi herald hoping for cursed earth in a block of seekers could be OK too if you wanted I5 talons.

Discussion on if a unit is good or bad is meant from an objective point of view to determine their uses with no bias for or against a unit. I for one would never use mutilators simply because of their terrible, terrible models, so even if they were the best thing ever, they wouldn't get a look in. If another unit does the same job better and/or for less points and you don't have a bias against them, then why not take them instead and make your list stronger?

I have taken TSons to a tourney and managed to go 2/3 and finish in the top half of a 87 player field (just), Yeah, they're pretty bad, but much like you said, there are ways to build a list around them so they suck less. If a thread came up asking if they're really that bad though? Yes, yes they are, but I love them anyway.

 Drasius wrote:

Roknar wrote:
That's not entirely true imho. Both camps usually agree that they are bottom of the barrel. But it seems to me that the competitive pack always assume that competitive value is all that matters. And moreso, that in a casual game you may as well play with a painted rock, because it's just for fun anyway. Win or loose...same thing. The other camp tries to find way to make them work somewhat in games where you want to take X unit for whatever reason, because playing casual lists doesn't mean you don't care about winning.

Every time there is is a thread inquiring about a bad unit, everybody immediately suggests not taking it and more often than not suggests plague marines, without exploring how you could possibly make it work. Which is good from a competitive angle. But what if you want to still win and you want to take X unit? I for one have a certain vision in mind when composing armies. Like, say I want to play Black Legion. To me that means lots of marines, termies and chosen. Termies and chosen being the posterchild bad-asses from a fluff perspective. And I don't much care about nurgle and slaanesh. I don't care if the rules are better, I don't want any of those units. If anything then I'll take khorne or tzeentch. And then there are units like the hellturkey, which can die in a fire for all I care. It took me months just to warm up to the maulerfiend, but I still won't even consider taking a forgefiend.

So, in a sense, the codex offers a whole lot less choice for that particular army. And, in my case I don't like taking allies either. So for that example Black Legion list its unmarked power armour or bust. Now I also don't want to run an all basic marine list, which might still be fun. But then I'm going in KNOWING I'm going to loose. Which is totally ok as long as your having fun. But while that black legion list will probably not be competitive in any way, I still want to win with it. And then it doesn't help me one bit to know that every other unit would be better, I need to know how to make what I have work.

If I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, then I want to know how I could possibly make them work. In that case taking them isn't a choice, they are already part of the army. So where do I take it form there? What mechanics help overcome the whole grenade thing for instance? All while knowing full well that they suck and more importantly WHY they suck. That way, I can know what I'm about to get myself into and decide whether or not to go through with it. I'm fine with loosing a game if it was a close call for example.

Of course that's all good only so long as both players have similar expectations about the game. If I brought a thousand son list to a game against a competitive player..even against csm, chances are it would get pretty ugly pretty fast lol. But yea, the competitive bunch seems to paint an image where taking things like warp talons is akin to an automatic loss, while the other guys are trying to show that isn't necessarily the case. I don't think anybody is actually saying that warp talons are going to win you games.

Sort of.

The question for this thread is "Are Warp Talons really that bad?". The answer is Yes, yes they are. Same for muties, same for possessed. If the question was "I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, ... I want to know how I could possibly make them work?" then that's an entirely different matter. I'd wager that if you made a thread asking about how to get the most out of talons (fairly sure this has been done before) you get a thread with suggestions on how to make it happen, though half the responses would inevitably be "leave them on the shelf" unless you made a point to make it very clear that the list must absolutely include them. Most suggestions would inevitably revolve around Belakor as an HQ, min cultists and then a bunch of daemons with icons and a small unit of screamers with a grimoure herald. The screamers can get their 2+ re-roll from belakor via shrouding while using grimoure on the Tzeentch marked talons. A big Drone bus with nurgle herald and nurgle talons could probably also work, crushers with an icon would be handy for khornate talons and a slaaneshi herald hoping for cursed earth in a block of seekers could be OK too if you wanted I5 talons.

Discussion on if a unit is good or bad is meant from an objective point of view to determine their uses with no bias for or against a unit. I for one would never use mutilators simply because of their terrible, terrible models, so even if they were the best thing ever, they wouldn't get a look in. If another unit does the same job better and/or for less points and you don't have a bias against them, then why not take them instead and make your list stronger?

I have taken TSons to a tourney and managed to go 2/3 and finish in the top half of a 87 player field (just), Yeah, they're pretty bad, but much like you said, there are ways to build a list around them so they suck less. If a thread came up asking if they're really that bad though? Yes, yes they are, but I love them anyway.

Theres an entire thread where I disagree with you on Mutilators, as do others. So I'd say that's not a given. But Warp Talons are difficult to use, but especially effective against some armies. If you know you'e going against one of those armies, they certainly will give you a boost. if you're not...

Mutilators at least have good durability. Warp talons... not so much. Lacking durability is one of the cardinal sins of 7th ed, because durability WILL be tested.

for 10 more points you can take a heldrake which kills the same target MEQ. That alone makes them bad from a purely gaming stand point. It's a shame they are beautiful models

HoundsofDemos wrote:
for 10 more points you can take a heldrake which kills the same target MEQ. That alone makes them bad from a purely gaming stand point. It's a shame they are beautiful models

So is a Heldrake to be fair. =)

I'd rather have a Heldrake in most cases than Warp Talons. Competing slot mates is a tougher thing to overcome. Given that Fast Attack isn't a weak area for Chaos (Elites are the weakest) its pretty tough to pass up that Heldrake. You need a specific strategy for the Warp Talons to make more sense. I can see possibilities for them but in the end I am definitely taking a Heldrake BEFORE Warp Talons most of the time.

If they could assault out of deepstrike they'd still cost too much, that alone says how bad they are. If they could drop and hit a devastator squad then bam they get their points back but in the turn you have to wait to assault you get smoked

They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

 koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

And in the meantime, Team Casual is wondering why Team Cutthroat even plays this game, since it's notoriously unbalanced and has notoriously poorly implemented rules, and thinks Team Curthroat would be better off playing chess.

Alcibiades wrote:
And in the meantime, Team Casual is wondering why Team Cutthroat even plays this game, since it's notoriously unbalanced and has notoriously poorly implemented rules, and thinks Team Curthroat would be better off playing chess.

Doesn't answer the question. If you have actual thoughts for the topic, say them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

5++, access to marks and mutations. That's about it. New codex might improve things for them. Unlikely though.

 JamesY wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

5++, access to marks and mutations. That's about it. New codex might improve things for them. Unlikely though.

You pay for Marks instead of getting Chapter Tactics. MoK can be equivalent of Ultramarine rerolls, in example. The inherent 5++ only comes in handy against non AP2-3 when you use Iron Hands. When outfitted, paying for Marks is completely inferior to Chapter Tactics. MoS is the only one you can't necessarily replicate, and the unit doesn't have grenades so it isn't like it'll matter half the time.
Mutations only apply for the Champion, so that's not a unit advantage.

They should have two wounds.

The warp talons are better at being shot at by heldrakes than the loyalist jumpers are :p.

Would some malefic trickery help? I guess you could have a sorcerer with a jump pack run with them for 4++ from Cursed Earth but then you are getting pricey.

Cursed earth and allied in CDs with a Grimoire for 2++. Very circumstantial though and expensive again.

 Jancoran wrote:
Theres an entire thread where I disagree with you on Mutilators, as do others. So I'd say that's not a given. But Warp Talons are difficult to use, but especially effective against some armies. If you know you'e going against one of those armies, they certainly will give you a boost. if you're not...

Your posts have been nothing but the slow slide onto the ignore list as you lose credibility with rediculous statements that IG is strong as are BA and mutilators. The vast majority of the mutilator thread was everyone and their dog telling you that you were incorrect and the mutialtor are terrible and yourself and one or two others sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating the same arguments over and over again without realising that you hadn't answered any of the questions you'd been asked, nor demonstrated how mutilators were remotely competative against a half decent list.

Pilau Rice wrote:Would some malefic trickery help? I guess you could have a sorcerer with a jump pack run with them for 4++ from Cursed Earth but then you are getting pricey.

Cursed earth and allied in CDs with a Grimoire for 2++. Very circumstantial though and expensive again

Yes, it can work, sort of, but the question then becomes, why not use obliterators as a base since everything that works for talons works for oblits? Then the question after that is why use the CSM dex at all? Why not just use the better units out of the Daemons codex like screamers, plague drones, hounds, D-Thirster, Belakor, Princes, hell, I'd wager on bloodcrushers over talons! Why invest 500+ points making a bad unit work when you can either just take a good unit instead for less points or invest the same 500 points into making a good unit incredible?

It's also a gamble, because there's the inherant risk of a) not getting cursed earth and b) your CSM sorceror perils on doubles when casting maelific powers and he only starts with 2 wounds. You'd be better off rolling for invis anyway. 6's to hit is better than +1 invo unless it gets you to a 2 or 3++ and you can re-roll 1's or failed saves. Or you could go crimson slaughter and look for the 4++ so you can take the mark of Nurgle +1T, though again, both are gambles because there's a bunch of stuff in there that doesn't help them at all with their main weakness (surviving to actually get into combat).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

Can't blind (situational), don't provoke fear (situational), have 1 less attack per model (situational - might metter when bottlenecking), csm don't have vanguard vets.

 Drasius wrote:


Yes, it can work, sort of, but the question then becomes, why not use obliterators as a base since everything that works for talons works for oblits? Then the question after that is why use the CSM dex at all? Why not just use the better units out of the Daemons codex like screamers, plague drones, hounds, D-Thirster, Belakor, Princes, hell, I'd wager on bloodcrushers over talons! Why invest 500+ points making a bad unit work when you can either just take a good unit instead for less points or invest the same 500 points into making a good unit incredible?

It's also a gamble, because there's the inherant risk of a) not getting cursed earth and b) your CSM sorceror perils on doubles when casting maelific powers and he only starts with 2 wounds. You'd be better off rolling for invis anyway. 6's to hit is better than +1 invo unless it gets you to a 2 or 3++ and you can re-roll 1's or failed saves. Or you could go crimson slaughter and look for the 4++ so you can take the mark of Nurgle +1T, though again, both are gambles because there's a bunch of stuff in there that doesn't help them at all with their main weakness (surviving to actually get into combat).

All of which is very true, but I was going for Warp Talons as that is what the topic is about I wouldn't pick Warp Talons over other choices at all.

I would argue about Obs though, they would be a bit slow getting across the board and you don't want them in CC, even though they are surprisingly good at it, with MoN at least.

Oh, I wasn't intending on the Oblits being in CC, they were intended to stand around and shoot stuff while having 2W and either T5 2+/3++ or T4 2+/2++. Why bother trying to melee when you can shoot stuff? This is 7th after all.

Besides, as mentioned, those power fists are at least some deterant to non-dedicated assaulters trying to tie you up.

But yes, the question is "Are warp talons good?" , not, "If I throw hundreds of points of support from 2 different codecies, can I make a bad unit less bad?"

 koooaei wrote:

Can't blind (situational), don't provoke fear (situational), have 1 less attack per model (situational - might metter when bottlenecking), csm don't have vanguard vets.

Knocking it on the head quickly, they actually have more Attacks. Not only do Vanguard have A2 where the Talons have A1 + 2CCW, but there are actually *6* Vanguard in that squad. So they're throwing down 12/18 Attacks where the Talons are getting 11/16.

 Drasius wrote:
Oh, I wasn't intending on the Oblits being in CC, they were intended to stand around and shoot stuff while having 2W and either T5 2+/3++ or T4 2+/2++. Why bother trying to melee when you can shoot stuff? This is 7th after all.

Well you did mention Obs when Warp Talons are a CC unit without any form of shooting so.

 Drasius wrote:

But yes, the question is "Are warp talons good?" , not, "If I throw hundreds of points of support from 2 different codecies, can I make a bad unit less bad?"

Point taken, was just making suggestion as to how they could possibly be made less bad if they were to be used. With cursed earth you would only need 1 codex.

Warp Talons are that superhot girlfriend you used to have who is great in bed but is horrible to bring anywhere else, is mean with a bad attitude, complains about everything, thinks she is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and no one wants to hang out with you and her together. They are great if they get into combat with MEQs, but getting them there and sacrificing the points to bring and support them in the first place just makes them not worth it.

 Drasius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Wait, they're not getting fearless in kdk? I've been cheated!
Anywayz, biker shredding still remains the same.

No, all deamon units in daemonkin should be fearless instead of having instability, this should carry over to 'Talons since they've got the same daemon rule as stuff like bloodletters in the KDK book.

Which mainly came about because you can't join mortal units to daemons normally due to instability, which would make the entire codex a shambles, so I'm fairly sure that they're fearless.

Daemon units in CSM (Obliterators, Warp Talons, Mutilators) don't have Daemonic Instability, that's a Codex Daemons rule only. They don't have Fearless in the base CSM codex either, so they don't get it in Daemonkin. It's a little bs if you ask me, but that's how it is.

I run a unit of 5 Nurgle talons with votlw.in my mostly mech Death Guard army. They have performed pretty well for me

Alcibiades wrote:
And in the meantime, Team Casual is wondering why Team Cutthroat even plays this game, since it's notoriously unbalanced and has notoriously poorly implemented rules, and thinks Team Curthroat would be better off playing chess.

Computers have already won chess.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

Can't blind (situational), don't provoke fear (situational), have 1 less attack per model (situational - might metter when bottlenecking), csm don't have vanguard vets.

If you're going to try wasting time using Warp Talons, take the 1st company formation.
1. It gives Fear (and quite frankly anything that will fail Fear is going to lose the combat anyway). Carcharodons also have Fear and can easily gain Rage.
2. Everyone already pointed out the Blind ability is garbage. If that's a defense, remember that this is grasping at straws once more.
3. Vanguard have two attacks base, so you know little about what you're saying at this point.
4. The 1st Company Formation is available to you. Use Iron Hands CT for the 6+++ and justify it saying they haven't completely mutated yet and they're so scary that nobody wants to be near them.

Again, five of them is 160. For 10 more points I can buy a Heldrake. The heldrake is better in every single way. Heldrakes are more durable, can threaten a wider range of targets and kill MEQ better than talons.


I'm a pretty casual but some units are just bad and it's time we are honest about that.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again, five of them is 160. For 10 more points I can buy a Heldrake. The heldrake is better in every single way. Heldrakes are more durable, can threaten a wider range of targets and kill MEQ better than talons.


I'm a pretty casual but some units are just bad and it's time we are honest about that.

More accurate to say they would require a pretty specific need to trump the Heldrake.

Heldrakes have their problems too. Like being one shot out of the sky with one 35 point Fortification upgrade or similar types of bad luck. So while I agree that the Heldrake will be the better choice, I think one should be careful over generalizing on it.

We will see what happens when a new codex drops. I expect they will stay the same in function but that the rest of the army will be made better able to support them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

5++, access to marks and mutations. That's about it. New codex might improve things for them. Unlikely though.

You pay for Marks instead of getting Chapter Tactics. MoK can be equivalent of Ultramarine rerolls, in example. The inherent 5++ only comes in handy against non AP2-3 when you use Iron Hands. When outfitted, paying for Marks is completely inferior to Chapter Tactics. MoS is the only one you can't necessarily replicate, and the unit doesn't have grenades so it isn't like it'll matter half the time.
Mutations only apply for the Champion, so that's not a unit advantage.

I think you misunderstood my tone, I was agreeing with you.

Although you have to pick chapter tactics for the army, marks you can at least pick and choose for the role of the unit, and you can't replicate mon without bikes. As said though, you do have to pay for them.

I would bring Talons over the helldrake any day, they look much better even if they are really hard to paint nicely. Now we are comparing the hot mean ex-girlfriend to the annoying FWB you don't want to spend more time than needed with. Its an easy crutch but do you really want to go there? At least the Talons require some finesse. Why am I comparing my bachelor life with chaos daemons?

So you basically admitting they are bad unit but you take them because they are difficult to use ?

Col. Dash wrote:
Why am I comparing my bachelor life with chaos daemons?

Its all that's left to you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
So you basically admitting they are bad unit but you take them because they are difficult to use ?

He's saying you gotta have talent to use them perhaps?

There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

So unless you're facing nothing BUT 2+ armor, they can do work, can they not? And they will do MORE work in melee against such targets than other fast choices of the same ilk, that I am aware of. and their Daemon save WILL allow them to take a little more damage than they otherwise would. So...

Heldrakes for the win. But lets not overstate the case.

There slot placement hurts them, even if they were cheaper they are up against chaos's most crowded slot.

For me they're bad because of the following reasons:

1.) You pay a premium for every model when really you'd only want maybe two to three models in the unit with that much killy power. This premium hurts more when other armies get something similar for MUCH cheaper (Vanguards) and when they have almost nothing in those points for adding durability (aside from a 5++)

2.) They lack a lot of options to allow them to do something else other than an extremely narrow niche (like someone said, hunting MEQs). The lack of grenades means even more restrictions.

3.) Sometimes their rules are counter-intuitive. They have blind and deepstrike, but no grenades or deepstrike mitigation. And obviously they can't do anything on the turn they deepstrike, although that is an issue with a lot of assault troops with Deepstrike.

4.) When they are good at killing something, they're often too good. Remember that "premium" I talked about earlier? Sure a squad can probably murder the crap out of a bunch of marines, but one or two probably could have done the job just as well, maybe even better because they can actually keep one or two marines alive to duck out of the shooting phase next turn. Meanwhile, that shooting means they fear so much probably killed a bunch before they actually made it to the line. Which means you just paid for a bunch of extra lightning claws that were never used.

5.) They share the same slot as Raptors, which solves a lot of the problems they have (lacking weapon options, no grenades, no ranged weapons, expensive base cost) while still being able to retain the killy power with the Aspiring Champion. Hell they even share the same kit.

For me, I feel like they should probably be at around 22 points a model. That may sound massively undercosted for what amounts to Jump Pack models with a pair of lightning claws and the Daemon Rule, but remember you'll be paying that premium over all the models. This makes them cheap enough that you can reasonably afford a large number of them to soak up wounds. Or, instead of that massive drop in cost, allow them to assault out of deepstrike and return to it like a Mawloc. This lets them get more mileage out of their blind ability (if you deploy them on the board, you are literally paying for a skill you're not using) and actually make them act more like they are described in fluff: jumping in and out of the warp to get closer to their prey.

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

So unless you're facing nothing BUT 2+ armor, they can do work, can they not? And they will do MORE work in melee against such targets than other fast choices of the same ilk, that I am aware of. and their Daemon save WILL allow them to take a little more damage than they otherwise would. So...

Heldrakes for the win. But lets not overstate the case.

Just because their Lightning Claws ignore armors worse then 3+ doesn't mean they are good against units that have bad armor. You're overpaying on points for an ability that is wasted on weaker armor. If 5 talons do 7 wounds of ap3, do that something as cheap as 5pt IG or 6pt orks basically is doing nothing

These guys cost as much as sanguinary guards but die twice as fast to regular guns. In the era of scatterlasers on troops , that seems really bad. Note that I consider sang guards almost unplayable.

Martel732 wrote:
These guys cost as much as sanguinary guards but die twice as fast to regular guns. In the era of scatterlasers on troops , that seems really bad. Note that I consider sang guards almost unplayable.

Oh Martel, you consider everything Blood Angels unplayable *audience laughter*

But am I wrong?

Martel732 wrote:
But am I wrong?

Yes. at the Very list Blood Angels still get Sicarians and Fire Raptors. Plus their bikes are still good SM bikes (just not as absurdly good as white scars)

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There slot placement hurts them, even if they were cheaper they are up against chaos's most crowded slot.

I completely agree there. An elite perhaps would have been better.


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 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

So unless you're facing nothing BUT 2+ armor, they can do work, can they not? And they will do MORE work in melee against such targets than other fast choices of the same ilk, that I am aware of. and their Daemon save WILL allow them to take a little more damage than they otherwise would. So...

Heldrakes for the win. But lets not overstate the case.

Just because their Lightning Claws ignore armors worse then 3+ doesn't mean they are good against units that have bad armor. You're overpaying on points for an ability that is wasted on weaker armor. If 5 talons do 7 wounds of ap3, do that something as cheap as 5pt IG or 6pt orks basically is doing nothing

Again we dont agree because: Morale. In close combat its all about morale, not actual damage done. Sweeping advances happen.

But yes, they certainly aren't killing INDIVIDUALLY as expensive a modle in those cases you site. No argument there.

I am in the Heldrake camp but what I am mostly saying is: don't fall into the trap of hyperbole. I had to dig deep to find a way to maximize Warp Talons in my blog and so i cannot disagree with their flaws other than insofar as pointing out their strengths exist despite those flaws.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But am I wrong?

Yes. at the Very list Blood Angels still get Sicarians and Fire Raptors. Plus their bikes are still good SM bikes (just not as absurdly good as white scars)

I meant wrong about SG. Sicarans and Fire Raptors aren't in C:BA. Those things don't make BA good.


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 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There slot placement hurts them, even if they were cheaper they are up against chaos's most crowded slot.

I completely agree there. An elite perhaps would have been better.


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 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

So unless you're facing nothing BUT 2+ armor, they can do work, can they not? And they will do MORE work in melee against such targets than other fast choices of the same ilk, that I am aware of. and their Daemon save WILL allow them to take a little more damage than they otherwise would. So...

Heldrakes for the win. But lets not overstate the case.

Just because their Lightning Claws ignore armors worse then 3+ doesn't mean they are good against units that have bad armor. You're overpaying on points for an ability that is wasted on weaker armor. If 5 talons do 7 wounds of ap3, do that something as cheap as 5pt IG or 6pt orks basically is doing nothing

Again we dont agree because: Morale. In close combat its all about morale, not actual damage done. Sweeping advances happen.

But yes, they certainly aren't killing INDIVIDUALLY as expensive a modle in those cases you site. No argument there.

I am in the Heldrake camp but what I am mostly saying is: don't fall into the trap of hyperbole. I had to dig deep to find a way to maximize Warp Talons in my blog and so i cannot disagree with their flaws other than insofar as pointing out their strengths exist despite those flaws.

As I said, they are weak to things that are very bad to be weak to in 7th ed.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I run a unit of 5 Nurgle talons with votlw.in my mostly mech Death Guard army. They have performed pretty well for me

Can you give more info?

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

What Demos means is that Warp Talons and Raptors are going to require the same positioning. However, Warp Talons aren't as durable (against AP2-3, you're paying almost twice as much for only 33% more durability) and I just proved earlier how Warp Talons won't do better against MEQ that's camping in cover or a Rhino.

However, let us take a gander at that first statement you made about worse save armies. When you pay so much for Lightning Claws, you're sometimes better off without them. Compare 5 Warp Talons (which are a minimum of 160) against 7 Raptors with MoK and two Melta Guns, which is 163 points.
1. Against GEQ (WS3, T3 5+), on the charge Warp Talons inflict 8.9 wounds, and the Raptors 8.6. If you include shooting, assuming a Frag Grenade hits two Guardsmen, you have a grand total of 3.8, which gives Raptors 12.4 kills.
2. Against FEQ (Fire Warriors have WS2, T3, and a 4+), Warp Talons still inflict 8.9 wounds. The Raptors now inflict 6.5 wounds instead (so a little less), but shooting brings that up to 9.2 kills instead.
3. Against TEQ (since the math wasn't already done), the Warp Talons inflict 1.3 wounds and the Raptors 1.6. Including shooting brings that to around 2.6 instead.

See how shooting is a big factor here? Once you include grenades (meaning Raptors charge at I4) the Warp Talons don't have anything going for them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
See how shooting is a big factor here? Once you include grenades (meaning Raptors charge at I4) the Warp Talons don't have anything going for them.

Well, to be fair you should include a MEQ unit and a T6 3+ MC.

yup.

Also, no one is suggesting they are super. I dont think. Including me. I am suggesting that they are being sold a bit shorter than they should.

I mean if you fight a high AP army as the Tau Empire might offer with all their Crisis teams, Broadsides and so on, the 5+ daemon save suddenly matters more.

I Cannot honestly say I would field the Warp Talons in anything but an army that actually is designed to feature them and that would almost certainly include come-the-apocalypse allies. There actually are some interesting ways to get use out of them with allies. I just think its so much work to manufacture their ideal environment that most normal generals wont bother.

I wont agree that it cannot be done. I won't agree that the Warp Talons are useless.

They better damn well give them grenades and better hand them some way to attack enemy init though. Can't say it enough times: that would truly help.

I already showed that Warp Talons can't beat Raptors at MEQ except outside of cover though. So saying they still have that use is STILL ignoring that point.

Regarding T6 3+, Raptors have Krak Grenades and can take a Melta Bomb. On the charge, Warp Talons inflict 2.3 wounds. Using Krak Grenades and a Melta Bomb, the Raptors inflict 1 wound. Shooting with 2 Melta Guns, 4 Bolt Pistols, and throwing a single Krak brings it to the same number. Once again that's assuming outside of cover, though it is pretty easy to give Monstrous Creatures cover (so the shooting wounds goes down by about 33% and the Warp Talons strike last).
Against 2+, the math is pretty ludicrous, with the Warp Talons only doing .4 and Raptors doing .65. I didn't do regular MoK Raptors on the charge because I didn't feel like doing the numbers on that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
On the charge, Warp Talons inflict 2.3 wounds.

Are you sure that's right?

2A base + 1A from paired weapons + 1A from charge bonus x 5 models = 20A

20(2/3)(3/10) = 3W

warp talons have 1A base.

Thanks for pointing that out for me.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
On the charge, Warp Talons inflict 2.3 wounds.

Are you sure that's right?

2A base + 1A from paired weapons + 1A from charge bonus x 5 models = 20A

20(2/3)(3/10) = 3W

Does this take into account rerolls to wound from Shred?

Yes I already did that.

I just got into the game not to long ago, probably 8 games or so under my belt, but I think the WT are overcosted and garbage for the points cost. Now, I love these models, bought 2 boxes of them, but stopped using them after 3 games. 1st game they ds in with scatter and got blown away to 2 guys before they could even charge. 2nd game they ds on target and manage to blind a necron immortal squad. But end up losing 2 to other units and overwatch before charging. Game 3 they killed a squad worth about 130 points then prompty died after assault ended. I love these guys, I want to use them, but just cant justify the points. My main opponent is necrons, and when he gets wraiths with a 3 up invuln save and better stats for less points, it seems useless to pay for the warp talons.

My GF just recently got into the game and we played a few learning games for her. Can someone explain to me how swooping hawks have 1 more model, haywire and plasma grenades, and 18 inch jump move if they want, a DS with NO SCATTER, and a grenade pack attack when they do ds that ignores over and line of sight? and have a mini vector strike attack while moving for flying units, and assault 3 weapons. All of this for half the points of WT..... Yes I understand we have a better save and better melee weapons, but I would trade all of that in a heartbeat for a squad like the hawks.

Like I said i'm fairly new, but this seems unbalanced as hell, or maybe I am just missing something with the talons, and if I am, please enlighten me because they are my favorite models that took me weeks to paint and I would love to use them without being handicapped lol.

Well at least Swooping Hawks fill a niche. In fact, the Aspect Warriors all feel decent besides the bikes, and even then there's always the ability to get +1BS/WS so it helps.


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Also the Eldar codex is unbalanced as hell, so it isn't just you


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On Battlescribe while editing a list I noticed that the Warp Talon Champion on has one base attack. If that's actually true, my math is slightly inaccurate and paints them in a better light than they should've been.

Nah, he has two alright.


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But since you mentioned something peculiar. I find it interesting how NOBODY mentions how the champ can take two gifts lol. I have defended them in the past (and still do) , and not even I took that into account.

P.S.
Not saying their good or even average...never did. Just to avoid any misunderstandings.

How would he be able to take two gifts? Meh.

It's actually an option for the WT champ lol. He may take up to two gifts for 10 points each. Which puts him square at 50 points before even considering a mark....or veterans of the long war if you like to be extra saucy. Most of the gifts are actually useful for him.

But it goes to show how bad a unit they are overall, when they are considered bad before even considering all of their options. Which actually make them even worse in this case. Even if you you somehow got a 2+ rerollable save on the champ...they'd STILL be bad. 50 points for a squishy 1 W model for a CHANCE at a decent roll is meh at the best of times.
I suppose you could make this guy your warlord if your feeling extra lucky to possibly get rerolls on those gifts but yea. Now we're getting into crazy town.

 Jancoran wrote:


Heldrakes have their problems too. Like being one shot out of the sky with one 35 point Fortification upgrade or similar types of bad luck.

I have to tackle this statement because it disturbs me to my very core.
Just saying it can be one-shot and is therefore a downside is grasping at straws. Bad luck can hit Warp Talons and they fail the charge distance or lose the combat and get swept. This is why we use Mathhammer to see what will most likely happen.

Take for example the Scatterbike. 135 points of them will kill 3.7 Warp Talons from a VERY long distance. On Overwatch they'll kill .9 and they'll hit in combat first, which kills .28. This equates 4.88, or in your case, seeing you just HATE decimals in past threads, 5 Warp Talons. When this same squad tries to hit even a Blight Drone on the side armor, they'll likely take off .74 HP. Remember how you said people might just Jink and therefore it plays into your hands? Looking at basic math will stop that.

So now we can look at what I imagine you're talking about (maybe the Quad Gun). Hitting the side armor of a Blight Drone will most likely inflict 1.19 HP. This is the side armor. Looking at how the Blight Drone is likely to be positioned, it'll do .8 instead. Heldrakes will really only be hit by the side and front when we look at how Fortifications are going to be deployed, so the RA10 is hardly ever going to come into play.
Now, there's also the Icarus Lascannon, and the math is even worse. It'll only do about .4 HP stripped with only a 10% to knock it out of the sky. Who is going to try and Jink that?

Saying that the downside is that they can be one-shot is SUPER ridiculous and you honestly should be ashamed you tried even bringing it up.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Heldrakes have their problems too. Like being one shot out of the sky with one 35 point Fortification upgrade or similar types of bad luck.

I have to tackle this statement because it disturbs me to my very core.
Just saying it can be one-shot and is therefore a downside is grasping at straws. .

Or stating a fact. One or the other. One cannot ignore the one-shot factor. Its real. Want a more "realistic" example? StormSurge missile. Just one. I mean whatevs. The point is, all armored being are frought with this peril except Super heavy Walkers.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So now we can look at what I imagine you're talking about (maybe the Quad Gun). .

Nope. The Lascannon, generally mann'd by a BS 5 model if you can pull it off.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Heldrakes have their problems too. Like being one shot out of the sky with one 35 point Fortification upgrade or similar types of bad luck.

I have to tackle this statement because it disturbs me to my very core.
Just saying it can be one-shot and is therefore a downside is grasping at straws. .

Or stating a fact. One or the other. One cannot ignore the one-shot factor. Its real. Want a more "realistic" example? StormSurge missile. Just one. I mean whatevs. The point is, all armored being are frought with this peril except Super heavy Walkers.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

So now we can look at what I imagine you're talking about (maybe the Quad Gun). .

Nope. The Lascannon, generally mann'd by a BS 5 model if you can pull it off.

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

I am surprised that their damage is so similar to Raptors, Krak Grenades are ace. I spaced out on the 1A base, excuse my math. Anyways...

There are a few ways to get around the WT core problems:

- no grenades = lock target unit in CC before charging, apply pinning to target unit, hit target unit with skull cannon (dreadskulls)
- overwatch = Dirge Caster, Pinning
- no AP2 = Misfortune for Shred+Rending
- survivability = Nurgle mark, blocking LOS terrain and vehicles, extreme threat saturation, psychic buffs + grimoire combos
- damage output = Attached IC with Hatred, Blood Tithe bonus attacks, psychic buffs/debuffs
- scatter issues = banner of blood+instrument+daemon of khorne (for zero-scatter chained DS)

It's a puzzle finding synergy to address those problems, I think you would need to look outside the vanilla codex. You could maybe make WT work independently as a skirmisher in sub-1000pts games, where there is less total firepower on the table and more room to manuever. Or keep them back, fix tough enemies with Spawn 1st, and finish with Warp Talons striking 2nd (at full initiative). It's still an ultra specialized unit. No krak grenades and no melta mean they have no damage against AV11+ without Rending.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I am surprised that their damage is so similar to Raptors, Krak Grenades are ace. I spaced out on the 1A base, excuse my math. Anyways...

There are a few ways to get around the WT core problems:

- no grenades = lock target unit in CC before charging, apply pinning to target unit, hit target unit with skull cannon (dreadskulls)
- overwatch = Dirge Caster, Pinning
- no AP2 = Misfortune for Shred+Rending
- survivability = Nurgle mark, blocking LOS terrain and vehicles, extreme threat saturation, psychic buffs + grimoire combos
- damage output = Attached IC with Hatred, Blood Tithe bonus attacks, psychic buffs/debuffs
- scatter issues = banner of blood+instrument+daemon of khorne (for zero-scatter chained DS)

It's a puzzle finding synergy to address those problems, I think you would need to look outside the vanilla codex. You could maybe make WT work independently as a skirmisher in sub-1000pts games, where there is less total firepower on the table and more room to manuever. Or keep them back, fix tough enemies with Spawn 1st, and finish with Warp Talons striking 2nd (at full initiative). It's still an ultra specialized unit. No krak grenades and no melta mean they have no damage against AV11+ without Rending.

Krak Grenades ARE awesome. I assault with Carcharodon Bikers ALL the time.

The main issue with addressing these problems is that either we can apply the same things to the Raptors or to better units in the first place. So we look at these one by one:
1. Even though the game DOES vary because of dice, Mathhammer will still average things out in the end. If I locked a unit in combat, I really shouldn't have to send something else to finish it off (seeing that I would want to finish off the squad on my opponent's turn, so that they're safe in the shooting phase). Otherwise, why couldn't I just do the same with another squad of Raptors?
2. Overwatch honestly isn't a big deal. It's a cool bonus, but it usually doesn't kill stuff to a huge extent.
3. This isn't bad, but I could still cast Misfortune to give the Raptors Rending on their guns and melee attacks as well.
4. I don't look at the Warp Talons from the Daemonkin codex. I know they have Furious Charge though, so at the very least you might as well take them from there if you want MoK Talons.
5. This doesn't happen until T2 at the earliest, and T3 at earliest for a charge. That's a LOT of points left in your reserves to only potentially Blind something.

Honestly? Had they gotten their Daemon mark bonuses on top of the Mark bonuses, they'd be significantly better. MoN ones would be T5 AND Shrouded? MoT gives 4++ and rerolling 1's on saves? MoS gives +1I and the Rending you want? MoK offers Rage AND Furious Charge?
No grenades and being already 30 points a pop is going to always hinder them though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How would he be able to take two gifts? Meh.

It's just a unit option for the champion. Possessed champs get it too. In small games I'm always tempted to make a possessed (or warp talon) champ as warlord and load him up with gifts and have a bit of a kinder surprise for what my general actually can do. I never do though 130 (or 160) points is a bit much to spend in a 600 point game!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The main issue with addressing these problems is that either we can apply the same things to the Raptors or to better units in the first place.

I came to the same conclusion. You really need to have a specific job in mind to make all the trouble worth it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly? Had they gotten their Daemon mark bonuses on top of the Mark bonuses, they'd be significantly better. MoN ones would be T5 AND Shrouded? MoT gives 4++ and rerolling 1's on saves? MoS gives +1I and the Rending you want? MoK offers Rage AND Furious Charge?
No grenades and being already 30 points a pop is going to always hinder them though.

Totally agree, vanilla Talons would still be missing the goodies though. Unmarked CSM needs some very specific buffs to deal with their usual critical failures. Pricey 3+ units like Possessed and Talons dying to junk fire, boring old CSM failing to scare anyone. A "Chaos Undivided" unique psychic table perhaps?

0 - Assault 2, S6 AP2, if target model is removed the unit suffers an immediate Pinning test at -2LD (Focus Witchfire)
1 - Unmarked CSM unit gains Instant Death, permanently (Blessing)
2 - Unmarked CSM unit recieves +1 to Armor save, FNP for one turn (Blessing)
3 - Unmarked CSM unit recieves Fleet, MTC and Rampage for 1 turn (Blessing)
4 - Enemy unit applies -2 modifier to any Fear test. As an additional effect, Unmarked CSM units in combat increase Initiative by 1 for every point the test is failed by. (Malediction)
5 -Target vehicle takes a Haywire hit and CSM player may conduct a shooting attack in the Psychic phase using its weapons. If targeted vehicle is a transport, one random passenger is eaten. This attack is resolved using Daemonforge on vehicles with the Daemon rule. (Malediction)
6 - If target Unmarked champion kills a character this turn, treat as Multiple Rewards on the Boon table. You may reroll all results. (Blessing)

Anyway that's the idea. But you'd still need some decent icons and relics to balance out a CSM force with no psykers and no allies. Whoever updates that codex has their work cut out for them, internal balance, theme and intuitive synergy have a long way to go.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


Honestly? Had they gotten their Daemon mark bonuses on top of the Mark bonuses, they'd be significantly better. MoN ones would be T5 AND Shrouded? MoT gives 4++ and rerolling 1's on saves? MoS gives +1I and the Rending you want? MoK offers Rage AND Furious Charge?
No grenades and being already 30 points a pop is going to always hinder them though.

The daemonkin warp talons do have rage and furious charge. They are full on daemons of khorne plus mark. So they can no scatter deeptsrike as well as benefiting from the skull cannon in the same codex. which is by far the easiest option to get around the lack of grenades. And on top of all that they get the blood tithes bonuses like feel no pain or more attacks. PLUS they get a formation here for better hammer of wrath attacks (+1S). It also allows them to become 2++ without a grimoire if your taking allies (though I suppose that's up for debate). The lack of grenades and guns still hurts them, but they're MILES ahead of the csm version.

Of course that doesn't help the plight of csm Warp Talons. These are much harder to get to work and nothing guarantees they will since you'll need stuff like pinning and psychic powers. The skull cannon only has to hit, with a large blast no less, to bypass grenades.
Still, saying raptors could do the same isn't quite true. They lack the daemon special rule, and if your going to use warp talons, you will want to make use of that. Raptors can't be buffed by cursed earth, nor the grimoire. Depending on house rules even the legacy that buffs khorne daemons invulnerable save . Raptors can't blind upon arriving by deepstrike, potentially multiple times if using gate of infinity (assuming you count that as coming from reserves anyway). Also the lack of grenades doesn't stop an attached IC from attacking, which could also throw the single grenade allowed.

Does this mean they are better as a unit? No. But it does mean that given enough support they can be decent. Given appropriate support:
- They are worse against tanks but are potentially more dangerous vs anything with a wound value. As both can buff melee stats in equal measures, but the WT will always have AP3 and shred over the raptors. Mathhammer with pistols is nice and all, but AP3 guarantees that any unit above 2+ CANNOT save (bar invuln ofc). Any kind of guarantees are nice to have in a game of dice. (keep in mind the next point).
- Since we're assuming they have support, both can assault at initiative and ignore overwatch.
- Warp Talons can be significantly tougher. Both can get fnp and a 2+ cover save, but Raptors could only get up to a 3++ (tzeentch) while WT can go up to a 2++, regardless of mark. Potentially even without a grimoire (this would require a house rule).
- If also acting as escort, both will be able to throw a grenade and have access to plague grenades. Both can become fearless.
- Both are bad vs 2+ save units. I guess Raptors are cheap enough to tie up such a unit, but that's hardly an ideal scenario either. Actually, if you go the invulnerable save route then WT are a lot better at that, but even then it would be a bad idea, given how they can't really wound them.

You can't just take Warp talons on their own and expect them to do their thing like you can with raptors. And Raptors are much more flexible, being able to take on tanks or hordes and still be ok vs most things in between. They can work somewhat as a ranged unit, depending on terrain. Warp Talons NEED the appropriate support, but then they can have a place. Though even then WT will be better versus SOME things in between while being worse against tanks and hordes, but that's ok. They're not meant to be attacking the same targets anyway. And you don't have to bend over too much in order to make them work either. Psychic powers require units that most people are quite happy to take anyway. Slaaneshi themes also still seem to be popular so that would cover pinning. Grimoires are popular, and that codex comes with a skull cannon too, which isn't a bad unit by itself. Of course if your already taking allies you may as well take Daemonkin WT, but that's only an option if your fine with them being Khorne marked.

They are still too expensive for what you get and the fact that you can't take them on their own. But their definitely not so bad that you can simply ignore them if your facing them. Especially not when supported.
Also if you want to be taking certain units out for a spin like the chaos achilles, then you you may as well try to make use of that pinning penalty. And then there are team battles. So one side might be out for Leadership shenanigans to make that fear work or whatever else might allow you to field the talons without too much of a headache.

Sill, from competitive stand point there isn't really any reason to take Warp Talons. You have to WANT to take them and then deal with their short comings. Which CAN make them work, but you risk loosing key units and ending up with a sub par unit even when you do this. So it's too risky for too little gain if all your out for is a win.

Interesting ideas.

There's some cool threads on dakka lately.

There is a certain charm to fielding an underdog unit.

Especially if your opponent knows you are running one and it way outperforms your expectations.

Taking warp talons for this reason alone is worth it - sure you might not expect much from them - but if they assault a unit of marines and wipe the floor with them it is that much more satisfying.

Of course they can't be ignored. But they can be prioritized and outschemed. Compare to other units that dispense death from 36" away. Just the fact that these goobers have to come to me makes my life so much easier.

Well, sure, but we're not exactly spoiled for 36 inch + death dealing machines outside of forgeworld. And that's the advantage of being a ranged unit so it not exactly a fair comparison. Raptors fare equally bad then with their pistol range and the odd plasma gun.
Still, its only an advantage if you can actually see them. Granted, that's kind of hard to control.

Tau don't have the highest initiative so the blind effect might actually work against them.

Try to deepstrike some bloodletters first then use the horn/banner to bring in the talons automatically and place them with no scatter right where you can hit the most units with blind at 6 ".

Might actually work.

This doesn't work with the normal csm talons though, oly daemonkin. You'd only get D6 scatter since they don't share an alignment. Though this depends on houserulings I guess.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

Yet, I'm not wrong.

You don't use MathHammer dude. You use What-If-Hammer. Lol.

Here's the reality. When I aim at you with a 35 point cannont, that hits on 2's... and penetrates you on a 4+... That's a 42% chance of penetrating your Heldrake. Tell me what that on shot means to a Warp Talons unit and you'll understand the difference.

Anything else is just missing the point dude. We wouldnt ever compare a damn battle cannon because it canrt reach both types of targets and you'd need me to clump AND you'd have ot hit dead on to make it even matter. What are the stats on THAT happening? Yeah. Exactly.

Tell your Blood lettsers to run the round they come in next time btw


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Tau don't have the highest initiative so the blind effect might actually work against them.

Try to deepstrike some bloodletters first then use the horn/banner to bring in the talons automatically and place them with no scatter right where you can hit the most units with blind at 6 ".

Might actually work.

Blinding works great except for the Battlesuits which are immune.

You can also use slaanesh daemons to lower target's ini by 1 turn 1 and than try to blind.

Hallucination also works, if you get the "It's so beautiful" result. Which happens to be on the telepathy table which is already quite popular.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

Yet, I'm not wrong.

You don't use MathHammer dude. You use What-If-Hammer. Lol.

Here's the reality. When I aim at you with a 35 point cannont, that hits on 2's... and penetrates you on a 4+... That's a 42% chance of penetrating your Heldrake. Tell me what that on shot means to a Warp Talons unit and you'll understand the difference.

Anything else is just missing the point dude. We wouldnt ever compare a damn battle cannon because it canrt reach both types of targets and you'd need me to clump AND you'd have ot hit dead on to make it even matter. What are the stats on THAT happening? Yeah. Exactly.

What does that even mean? You can potentially one-shot a Heldrake and potentially one-shot a Warp Talon squad. Your argument is that the Heldrake's weakness is that it can be one-shot. ANYTHING can be one-shot in this game. It's a gak argument and you know it, and that's why we use basic math, which you seem to not grasp despite saying you work with numbers every day.
I already presented the math for your Icarus Lascannon. It's a 32% to penetrate (you forgot the 5++) and 11% to glance. Once you add IWND and that it ignores Shaken and Stunned results on a 2+, I don't care about the penetrating hit quite frankly. I'll take a 11% chance for it to be destroyed just so I can fire the Baleflamer or Battlecannon/Autocannon (regarding the Blight Drone) again.

Also, you don't need to tell me. Large Blasts are nice for a reason; not including the numbered dice from the scatter, the scatter dice itself has a 33% for a perfect hit. Assuming all five Warp Talons fail their 5++, that's about 10% for that to happen altogether.
Also your Talons aren't going to be spread out because you're the one that thinks trying to use their Blind ability is a good idea, and therefore you're trying to Deep Strike them. Otherwise, they're only going to be spread out 1-2 inches. Isn't hard to accomplish.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

Yet, I'm not wrong.

You don't use MathHammer dude. You use What-If-Hammer. Lol.

Here's the reality. When I aim at you with a 35 point cannont, that hits on 2's... and penetrates you on a 4+... That's a 42% chance of penetrating your Heldrake. Tell me what that on shot means to a Warp Talons unit and you'll understand the difference.

Anything else is just missing the point dude. We wouldnt ever compare a damn battle cannon because it canrt reach both types of targets and you'd need me to clump AND you'd have ot hit dead on to make it even matter. What are the stats on THAT happening? Yeah. Exactly.

What does that even mean? You can potentially one-shot a Heldrake and potentially one-shot a Warp Talon squad. Your argument is that the Heldrake's weakness is that it can be one-shot. ANYTHING can be one-shot in this game. It's a gak argument and you know it, and that's why we use basic math, which you seem to not grasp despite saying you work with numbers every day.
I already presented the math for your Icarus Lascannon. It's a 32% to penetrate (you forgot the 5++) and 11% to glance. Once you add IWND and that it ignores Shaken and Stunned results on a 2+, I don't care about the penetrating hit quite frankly. I'll take a 11% chance for it to be destroyed just so I can fire the Baleflamer or Battlecannon/Autocannon (regarding the Blight Drone) again.

Also, you don't need to tell me. Large Blasts are nice for a reason; not including the numbered dice from the scatter, the scatter dice itself has a 33% for a perfect hit. Assuming all five Warp Talons fail their 5++, that's about 10% for that to happen altogether.
Also your Talons aren't going to be spread out because you're the one that thinks trying to use their Blind ability is a good idea, and therefore you're trying to Deep Strike them. Otherwise, they're only going to be spread out 1-2 inches. Isn't hard to accomplish.

Do you not know that they can run the round they deep strike? is that new information or or are you just intentionally ignoring it? Which one is it?

The point originally was that Heldrakes are better than Warp Talons. I agreed that I generally prefer them. I also said that while that's true in most cases, the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder.

Hit all five of the Warp Talons aaaaaand wound all five with one shot... how many are left, math guy? 1-2. Yup.

So...

We know 100% of the time the Heldrake can be one shot'd. We know this really isn't true of the Talons (dice happen but that's not what you're about is it?). THAT was the point. Stop right there and absorb it. Go no further MathHammer guy. Just absorb THAT.

It's just a symptom of you loving to argue with me on everything. Well, stop already. The act is old, PLUS you're wrong, which makes it worse. Hit all five Talons dead on and one survives, maybe two. Who knows. You're not one shotting them and that was LITERALLY the only point you are arguing...unsuccessfully.

Given your perfect storm, I am hitting automatically (I guess) so we're skipping that part of the math and just going right to penetrations. Railgun? 22% chance of exploding it, 15% adjusted for the invul save. Way higher than your Warp Talon one shot suggestion.

Well, I'd say it's easier to oneshot a heldrake than it is to oneshot a unit of talons, buffs or not. But I agree that using a jink on a single shot is a waste.

I disagee with the blind statement though. It's not so much that using their ability is a good idea. It's more about potentially being useful. Let's just say your fighting a tau gunline...they're out there. If you happen to have gate of infinity you could effectively deep strike twice as you come down to blind a large portion of their gunline. With their measily 2 iniative that would be totally worth the risk.

Of course if your going up against eldar then you may as well forget they have that rule. I'm just saying it CAN be a good idea. Even if it's only once in a blue moon. Also, you could use leviation to scatter them after deepstriking. It's not unreasonable to have warp talons ecsorting a sorcerer IF your set on using WT.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

Yet, I'm not wrong.

You don't use MathHammer dude. You use What-If-Hammer. Lol.

Here's the reality. When I aim at you with a 35 point cannont, that hits on 2's... and penetrates you on a 4+... That's a 42% chance of penetrating your Heldrake. Tell me what that on shot means to a Warp Talons unit and you'll understand the difference.

Anything else is just missing the point dude. We wouldnt ever compare a damn battle cannon because it canrt reach both types of targets and you'd need me to clump AND you'd have ot hit dead on to make it even matter. What are the stats on THAT happening? Yeah. Exactly.

What does that even mean? You can potentially one-shot a Heldrake and potentially one-shot a Warp Talon squad. Your argument is that the Heldrake's weakness is that it can be one-shot. ANYTHING can be one-shot in this game. It's a gak argument and you know it, and that's why we use basic math, which you seem to not grasp despite saying you work with numbers every day.
I already presented the math for your Icarus Lascannon. It's a 32% to penetrate (you forgot the 5++) and 11% to glance. Once you add IWND and that it ignores Shaken and Stunned results on a 2+, I don't care about the penetrating hit quite frankly. I'll take a 11% chance for it to be destroyed just so I can fire the Baleflamer or Battlecannon/Autocannon (regarding the Blight Drone) again.

Also, you don't need to tell me. Large Blasts are nice for a reason; not including the numbered dice from the scatter, the scatter dice itself has a 33% for a perfect hit. Assuming all five Warp Talons fail their 5++, that's about 10% for that to happen altogether.
Also your Talons aren't going to be spread out because you're the one that thinks trying to use their Blind ability is a good idea, and therefore you're trying to Deep Strike them. Otherwise, they're only going to be spread out 1-2 inches. Isn't hard to accomplish.

Do you not know that they can run the round they deep strike? is that new information or or are you just intentionally ignoring it? Which one is it?

The point originally was that Heldrakes are better than Warp Talons. I agreed that I generally prefer them. I also said that while that's true in most cases, the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder.

Hit all five of the Warp Talons aaaaaand wound all five with one shot... how many are left, math guy? 1-2. Yup.

So...

We know 100% of the time the Heldrake can be one shot'd. We know this really isn't true of the Talons (dice happen but that's not what you're about is it?). THAT was the point. Stop right there and absorb it. Go no further MathHammer guy. Just absorb THAT.

It's just a symptom of you loving to argue with me on everything. Well, stop already. The act is old, PLUS you're wrong, which makes it worse. Hit all five Talons dead on and one survives, maybe two. Who knows. You're not one shotting them and that was LITERALLY the only point you are arguing...unsuccessfully.

Given your perfect storm, I am hitting automatically (I guess) so we're skipping that part of the math and just going right to penetrations. Railgun? 22% chance of exploding it, 15% adjusted for the invul save. Way higher than your Warp Talon one shot suggestion.

Do you look at what you type? Let us break this down, shall we?

1. "the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder"
And Warp Talons AREN'T? They are 30 point MEQ bodies. They aren't going to live the turn they Deep Strike because nobody has trouble removing MEQ's, and they already aren't doing anything better than Raptors except one thing: charging MEQ outside of cover. If your opponent isn't using cover, your opponent sucks. Heldrakes don't care about that. To say that Heldrakes are more the one shot wonder is literally the dumbest thing I've seen posted in a 40k forum, and that says a lot.
For the record, it doesn't matter if Warp Talons can run because I already presented how Raptors are literally just SO MUCH BETTER.
2. "Hit all five of the Warp Talons aaaaaand wound all five with one shot... how many are left, math guy? 1-2. Yup."
And that would be the average, which you ignore for the Heldrake's case because you decide it will benefit you in the argument. You look at the averages for the Heldrake or Blight Drone, you can make the same argument.
3. "We know 100% of the time the Heldrake can be one shot'd."
We know 100% of the time the Warp Talons can be one shot'd. You use the Icarus Lascannon, I use the average Battle Cannon. 100% of the time I know I have the chance to do it.
This is literally your argument. You understand now why nobody here respects you and several have blocked you?
4. "Hit all five Talons dead on and one survives, maybe two"
Hit one Heldrake and you fail to penetrate. Maybe you pass the 5++.
See how this works? This is your logic. Absorb THAT please.
5. "Given your perfect storm, I am hitting automatically (I guess) so we're skipping that part of the math and just going right to penetrations"
You're the one that thinks one-shotting vehicles is a viable tactic, not me. Neither does anyone else. I took the averages for hitting, glancing, penetrating, and then the chance to one-shot. I did the same assuming you hit all five Warp Talons with a Battle Cannon (not even the rapid fire variant, which is likely the only one you'll see) and I presented the numbers. Battle Cannons won't even hit Heldrakes, Way higher than your Heldrake One Shot suggestion.
See how your logic works once again? Are you SURE you actually work with numbers on a daily basis? Several people have done this before and you seem to ignore it, hence why you've been blocked by what seems like SEVERAL people.

If you're going to use absurd logic, don't. That's my only advice to you.

Roknar wrote:
It's not unreasonable to have warp talons ecsorting a sorcerer IF your set on using WT.

Having a 2+ IC to tank would help, right? T5 Talons + Daemonheart would shake off a lot of average massed fire like Bolters and Gauss.

Not much use against Barrage, Precision Shot or Focused Witchfires but at least you can't bolter them to death with a tax unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. "the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder"
And Warp Talons AREN'T?

As 626 said they are a little too good at their job, if they sweep most units on the charge they will be exposed.

I think there's ways to protect them on the approach, but after combat they are going to be vulnerable if they can't consolidate into safety.

What can you bolter to death with a tax unit? Not any meqs really.

Now you are taking 30 pt meqs and putting an IC with them. For a melee squad that specializes in 3+ armor. No thanks.

Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either. I mean they can get fnp but that would be coming from a sorcerer who is most definitely not going to tank. But since you're going crimson slaughter, you might want to roll on telepathy for the stacking leadership penalties from the possible warlord trait. that would be a minus 3 for fear tests on terrifiy and -2 overall for dominate or whatever (after terrify). You'd be "tanking" by making units around you worse. Though at minus 2 leadership you might straight up cause units to break on terrify.
This would work on raptors too mind you. So if you want to tank with talons you'd want a decent invulnerable save and invisibilty.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


1. "the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder"
And Warp Talons AREN'T?

Nope.

I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


1. "the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder"
And Warp Talons AREN'T?

Nope.

Correct warp talons aren't a one-shot wonder. They are a zero-shot wonder

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

I wouldn't want to plan tactics around blind either -- it's more of a "nice to have" than anything else.

In fact I think it's a bit of a trap, Warp Talons would do better as backfield defense or mopping up damaged squads in the endgame than getting their butts shot off on T2. If there was a ever unit you didn't want to deepstrike with suicidal tendencies it's this one, so "Blind a unit within 6"" is quite misleading to players who want to try out their special rule.

Roknar wrote:
Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either.

Maybe just bound them upfield behind LOS cover rather than deepstrike. Juggernaut of Khorne could snag an Axe and +1W. Then detach the IC once in position to charge down different units.

You'd probably want to lead with scouting Flesh Hounds with Warp Talons as the second wave / countercharge. Maybe I'll even try this out one day.

If they could assault the turn they came in the blind thing would be kinda cool, not great but when it works it works. Instead it's take a gamble and hope my almost 200 point unit doesn't get pasted before they get to do anything but sit in the open

Why was there a five page discussion when we only needed three letters?

"Yes."

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why was there a five page discussion when we only needed three letters?

"Yes."

Or two?
"Ye" "No"

They're not great but not total garbage either.

no he's right. With out heavy use of data sheets and allies, codex chaos space marine is garbage. Pure garbage at a competitive level. Compare anything in that book to a scatter bike. That is the gold standard.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

Won't argue that, but you can use it multiple times with things such as gate of infinity. Even on the turn you deepstrike. Though that depends on if you allow that to count as deepstriking from reserve so its more of a houserule. Even so it doesn't really change anyhting. Now you can mishap twice and more often than not, still do jack with your blind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either.

Maybe just bound them upfield behind LOS cover rather than deepstrike. Juggernaut of Khorne could snag an Axe and +1W. Then detach the IC once in position to charge down different units.

You'd probably want to lead with scouting Flesh Hounds with Warp Talons as the second wave / countercharge. Maybe I'll even try this out one day.

I suppose you could do that, provided they get their usual support. Not deepstriking them is the better option anyway most of the time. It works for bikes and spawn so it should still work with talons if you manage to give them a decent save, since they lack the toughness of the biker and wounds of the spawn.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

I wouldn't want to plan tactics around blind either -- it's more of a "nice to have" than anything else.

In fact I think it's a bit of a trap, Warp Talons would do better as backfield defense or mopping up damaged squads in the endgame than getting their butts shot off on T2. If there was a ever unit you didn't want to deepstrike with suicidal tendencies it's this one, so "Blind a unit within 6"" is quite misleading to players who want to try out their special rule.

Roknar wrote:
Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either.

Maybe just bound them upfield behind LOS cover rather than deepstrike. Juggernaut of Khorne could snag an Axe and +1W. Then detach the IC once in position to charge down different units.

You'd probably want to lead with scouting Flesh Hounds with Warp Talons as the second wave / countercharge. Maybe I'll even try this out one day.

Well hounds are easily acquired via Gorepack. Not only does that access Bikers that are slightly better (MoN will still be the gold standard, but MoK isn't far behind, but the bonuses make up for it), but it saves our Fast Attack slots. Now you just have to choose between Spawn, Heldrakes, and FW goodies.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

I wouldn't want to plan tactics around blind either -- it's more of a "nice to have" than anything else.

In fact I think it's a bit of a trap, Warp Talons would do better as backfield defense or mopping up damaged squads in the endgame than getting their butts shot off on T2. If there was a ever unit you didn't want to deepstrike with suicidal tendencies it's this one, so "Blind a unit within 6"" is quite misleading to players who want to try out their special rule.

Roknar wrote:
Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either.

Maybe just bound them upfield behind LOS cover rather than deepstrike. Juggernaut of Khorne could snag an Axe and +1W. Then detach the IC once in position to charge down different units.

You'd probably want to lead with scouting Flesh Hounds with Warp Talons as the second wave / countercharge. Maybe I'll even try this out one day.

I dont think we were talking about tactics, but durability when it came to Warp Talons. I generally would agree that they should bound across and ue terrain and vehicles etc to hide behind. The Blind Effect is nice and there's no reason NOT to esign tactics around it but having said that, I again restate that it is of academic interest to me. In real games i won't use Warp Talons except perhaps when I am building a more friendly list or am feling like screwing around. I can win with them but they aren't really something I'd want to take normally.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
They are obviously very expensive, but apart from that they don't seem so bad.

So why do people hate them so much? What's so bad about them?

Because they look horrible on paper. You see a unit, you see its point cost, you see its equipment, and think "Jesus, why am I paying so many points for a bad Vanguard vet?" Only one attack profile instead of two, the irrelevant daemon rule, etc. In reality Warp Talons are a solid unit as far as equipment is concerned. Having no grenades sucks, this is true, but can be played around. The real problem is that they are a glass cannon without a delivery system outside of flying across the table or deep-striking. At least Vanguard Vets can hop into a Stormraven or a Land Raider if they don't take jump-packs. That's an option. Warp Talons must fly.

I've tried them a few times (both in and out of KDK) and they have never failed to make their points back, but have also only survived one game. This is what my anecdotal game experience has produced (not a defense, as random dice rolls and anecdote are hardly conclusive, but perhaps some much needed context).

The unit works fantastic as a counter-charge unit. I play my CSM as a Chosen-heavy army, with expensive units that put out lots of damage and require a fair bit of effort to budge in both melee and at range. A mixture of warlord traits and equipment/ marks. This means that my opponent has a strong hierarchy of units to focus, from the melee deathstar pounding for him in a Land Raider, to the plasma chosen blasting holes in his favorite units. Many times I have seen powerful squads advance on my Chosen when I play the defense (Ashen Circle, as I'm not afraid of playing against the HH lists, and blobs of orks), only to have my pathetic warp talons ignored simply due to their reputation of being a horrible unit. Moreover, they sat back behind a rhino, behind the land raider, essentially staying out of sight and out of mind.

Then when my opponent comes within rapid fire range, flamer range, assault range, whatever, the Warp Talons tidily hop over some terrain or the transport and wreak terrible vengeance.

In my KDK army, the army is extremely aggressive and is already in my opponent's face. Flesh hounds are bounding across the table, rhinos of angry Khorne marines are turbo-boosting, a Bloodthirster and a Daemon Prince are sprinting their way over, and a Blood Throne next to a Land Raider are waddling up the table. The Warp Talons are not target priority #1. And so when they show up, they simply kill more expensive units which are not in a position to fight back. Devastators, Tau Crisis teams, etc. The dogs pin the army down, the Land Raider/ Monstrous Creatures draw fire, and the lovely Warp Talons enjoy the spoils.

The bonus of the Warp Talons is that they are small models, have a reputation for being terrible and are mobile. They unfortunately are not a spearhead, but rather a counter-attack unit or a second wave unit(again, from my anecdotal experience). Easy to hide in terrain and easy to keep out of LoS, but also easy to lose due to some bad dice or a wily opponent.

 Kraytirous wrote:

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
They are obviously very expensive, but apart from that they don't seem so bad.

So why do people hate them so much? What's so bad about them?

Because they look horrible on paper. You see a unit, you see its point cost, you see its equipment, and think "Jesus, why am I paying so many points for a bad Vanguard vet?" Only one attack profile instead of two, the irrelevant daemon rule, etc. In reality Warp Talons are a solid unit as far as equipment is concerned. Having no grenades sucks, this is true, but can be played around. The real problem is that they are a glass cannon without a delivery system outside of flying across the table or deep-striking. At least Vanguard Vets can hop into a Stormraven or a Land Raider if they don't take jump-packs. That's an option. Warp Talons must fly.

I've tried them a few times (both in and out of KDK) and they have never failed to make their points back, but have also only survived one game. This is what my anecdotal game experience has produced (not a defense, as random dice rolls and anecdote are hardly conclusive, but perhaps some much needed context).

The unit works fantastic as a counter-charge unit. I play my CSM as a Chosen-heavy army, with expensive units that put out lots of damage and require a fair bit of effort to budge in both melee and at range. A mixture of warlord traits and equipment/ marks. This means that my opponent has a strong hierarchy of units to focus, from the melee deathstar pounding for him in a Land Raider, to the plasma chosen blasting holes in his favorite units. Many times I have seen powerful squads advance on my Chosen when I play the defense (Ashen Circle, as I'm not afraid of playing against the HH lists, and blobs of orks), only to have my pathetic warp talons ignored simply due to their reputation of being a horrible unit. Moreover, they sat back behind a rhino, behind the land raider, essentially staying out of sight and out of mind.

Then when my opponent comes within rapid fire range, flamer range, assault range, whatever, the Warp Talons tidily hop over some terrain or the transport and wreak terrible vengeance.

In my KDK army, the army is extremely aggressive and is already in my opponent's face. Flesh hounds are bounding across the table, rhinos of angry Khorne marines are turbo-boosting, a Bloodthirster and a Daemon Prince are sprinting their way over, and a Blood Throne next to a Land Raider are waddling up the table. The Warp Talons are not target priority #1. And so when they show up, they simply kill more expensive units which are not in a position to fight back. Devastators, Tau Crisis teams, etc. The dogs pin the army down, the Land Raider/ Monstrous Creatures draw fire, and the lovely Warp Talons enjoy the spoils.

The bonus of the Warp Talons is that they are small models, have a reputation for being terrible and are mobile. They unfortunately are not a spearhead, but rather a counter-attack unit or a second wave unit(again, from my anecdotal experience). Easy to hide in terrain and easy to keep out of LoS, but also easy to lose due to some bad dice or a wily opponent.

Expect to hear that your meta sux now!

On a more serious note, that's probably how they're supposed to be used. Blind is most often not worth the risk. Or probably you could deepstrike out of los and still get the 6" range?

depends on the foe. it might be worth it. Depends.

sad thing is, back in 5th edition they would have been a decent unit. If they could result out of reserves they might be a decent counter punch.

As for Meta sucking, no such thing. Every group of player reaches their own conclusion of what this game is. But while no one list can win every match, the scatter bike and WK must be in your mind. Can you list beat a nasty Eldar, Space Marine, Necron Tau list. If not your meta in the absolute sense of breaking the game probably isn't up to it and that's not getting into ally silliness

I'm buying the case for mutilators a LOT more than these soap bubbles.