I don't mean why is this game so expensive, I mean why does it feel so expensive. One thing I looked at was how much my investment into 40k would cost as a whole, and how much my investment into my other hobbies would cost, one being Magic: the Gathering, and honestly, I've spent more on Magic than I would ever on 40k, and I don't feel any issue with it, but I feel rather stingy when it comes to 40k. More so, I've spent a ton on free games like League and Hearthstone without feeling bad about it, though every small purchase in 40k leaves me feeling drained. The obvious answer is that all those purchases are small purchases, so they don't feel as bad as a 50$ kit from 40k, though I've bought individual cards worth over 400$. Now you can say they will retain value, and even grow, but in some cases I fully intended to never sell them, but rather keep them, generally in the 200$ range, but the more expensive ones I did sell.
Here's my thoughts on why I think 40k feels so expensive, the simple answer being that the game isn't good enough to justify the price. Look at it this way, when I buy my Magic cards, I'm either drafting which means I'm using the product right then and there, or I'm playing a constructed format. Even the more niche formats I can find a tournament at least once a month in my area, if not more, but I can't say the same about 40k, in fact I want to play in ITC events but looking at the map there are 0 events in the Boston area in the near future, with the closest being in other neighboring states that are several hours of driving away. With Magic there were local small scale events every day of the week, I could decide when I played and how I played, at what store I played, and then there were larger events each weekend of different types, in fact even with those I was spoiled for choice most of the time. With 40k, sure I can probably find people in my area to play against, but because the rules are dependent on house rules I have to go out of my way to negotiate things, just to set up a game with one person, and this simply isn't the case with other gaming hobbies, or well any hobbies, where in most cases you can show up to an LGS or club and play a game with complete strangers without having to know them.
In short, I feel like 40k only feels expensive because of how little use it really has, it's not like other games where you can just always have someone to play with, but rather it's a game that puts a massive burden on you to just get a game going, which makes it seem significantly more expensive than it really is.
What do you guys think? What makes 40k feel expensive to you? I know I always thought it was overpriced, but when I sat down and thought about it, I realised it wasn't that it was overpriced, it was just that the game aspect of it wasn't good enough to make me feel safe for the price I was paying, reasonable or not.
With the other hobbies when you buy something you unwrap it or apply it if it is digital, and then you can use it right away. With 40k when you buy something and unwrap it, well that is just the beginning of your journey. I have about $1,500 worth of plastic crack that I bought over 4 years ago ... and that pile ain't getting any smaller anytime soon.
It feels expensive because (for me at least) half of the stuff I buy ends up being worthless on the table. I buy a box of Guardsmen for $29 a pop (plus taxes), only to have them die a horrible death nearly instantly on the table. Thanks to the stellar rules writing at Gee-dubs, unless you're a jetbike, a GMC, or certain super heavies you're essentially worthless.
I get a lot of joy out of making conversions, painting, etc., so I personally feel like I am getting my money's worth in most 40k circumstances, especially since most sets come with a huge amount of extra bits that I carefully squirrel away for future use. As for the time investment, it isn't the same type of game as magic and what not, so it seems like an apples to oranges comparison. But, I do agree with the poster who mentioned spending $30+ on a unit that doesn't equate to very much in the game itself. That does always feel like you aren't getting your money's worth. Still, it doesn't even begin to compare to Fantasy pre-AOS, which I was accustomed to. 40k was always the "bargain game" in comparison.
Just getting back into Magic, I have to agree that drafting is a far more rewarding experience than anything 40k offers. Spend a little bit of money, play a game for a few hours, sell off the stuff that gets you some money and you might even have been paid to have fun by the end of it. I've broken even on the one draft I took part in. $15 buy in, $15 card. Done and done.
But 40k is just a money pit. I spend more and more money and it will not make me anything from it. I'm going to just keep spending my money, keep playing my game when I can and that's that. But I'm also more into 40k than I'll ever be in Magic, because Magic is just a game. 40k is a full hobby for me to take part in. I'm willing to go that extra mile because the building and painting is just as big a part of it as playing. I've still got dozens of models waiting to be built, but I can assure you, I'm not going to building a Magic card.
Tinkrr wrote: Here's my thoughts on why I think 40k feels so expensive, the simple answer being that the game isn't good enough to justify the price.
That right there sums it up to me.
Ditto. When I first got into 40k, it was an exciting learning experience. As time went on and the rules were morphing I saw the man behind the curtain. Meaning, I noticed things like certain units that were obviously over powered or under costed just to sell more of those boxes of plastic. The game itself became a chore of negotiating how to play before every single match.
The real last straw for me was the current dark eldar codex. Disappointing barely scratches the surface. I'm not entirely sure why they even bothered unless their purpose is to try and kill off that army.
So, yes, I see the so called new box deals and all I can think is that my money would be better invested in a lottery ticket. Because at least then I have a chance of getting some value for my money.
The thing with something like Magic is that the basic product, the boosterpack, is always around 5 bucks a piece. That's an impulse buy. It makes it a lot easier to spend a lot on it. The random factor also helps; you always feel like that one pack will be a big buck ticket if you get that ultra-rare card. Also, MTG frequently has discounts and sales, such as Fatpacks, starter sets, Event Decks. These are all very cheap (Event Decks are now available at department stores and are, at most, 30 bucks), so it's easy to go overboard with them.
40k, on the other hand, slap you in the face with the pricetag each time. You may spend 400-500 on magic cards in a single season, but I'm willing to bet that most of that spending was incremental, with huge purchases like a playset of cards or a whole box of boosters to be a treat of some kind. With 40k, the bare minimum is around 30-40 bucks, and that's just for the clampacks and small boxes (which should be impulse buys). You want an actual set that might make a difference (say a tank, monstrous creature, flyer or large walker)? 80-100 bucks. You want a "treat"? fork over 200 at once.
5 dollars being spent incrementally (like, I can get 3 boosters for 12 bucks if I buy em at once) makes those costs easier to swallow, even if I end up spending the same anyways. But ask me to fork over 200-400 bucks all at once? Even if I know it's a good deal, I'm gonna be thinking twice about this.
Another thing with Magic is that the tangible feel of the things you get feels "right". For most people, a pack of magic cards might as well just contain the one rare card and maybe 2 Uncommons. But it feels a lot better when you get 10 commons, 3 uncommons, 1 rare, 1 land, and 1 rules card. Decks pad it out even more; a duel deck set is 20 bucks for two 120-card decks, most of which are reprints of old favourites. In comparison, look at the new Plastic Librarian; it costs 40 CAD and is a tiny-ass clampack with a tiny sprue inside. Now I know that Duel Decks are largely worthless reprints, lands and tokens, but what feels better? 120 cards divided into 2 playable decks for 20 bucks, or a clam pack with a bit of plastic inside for 40? I was actually faced with this choice a while back and you can bet your ass I grabbed the 20 dollar duel deck. It just feels more substantial.
EDIT: I bet if they came out with a Space Marine "Booster pack" that contained the pieces to assemble one RANDOM space marine (either Devastator, Tactical, Vanguard, Assault, Sternguard, or captain) for 5 bucks (about the average price of all those) or a similar pack for your army, you would probably be broke by nightfall. Fundimentally the marine still cost the same, but you'd feel far less apprehensive buying a 5 dollar minipack 10 times than buying a box of marines at 50 dollars.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: EDIT: I bet if they came out with a Space Marine "Booster pack" that contained the pieces to assemble one RANDOM space marine (either Devastator, Tactical, Vanguard, Assault, Sternguard, or captain) for 5 bucks (about the average price of all those) or a similar pack for your army, you would probably be broke by nightfall. Fundimentally the marine still cost the same, but you'd feel far less apprehensive buying a 5 dollar minipack 10 times than buying a box of marines at 50 dollars.
I'd be all over that, especially if the idea was for it to be anything but a stock standard tactical. Give it a heavy weapon to customize your devistators or to add variety to your tacticals, or a special melee weapon to make an alternate assault squad sgt for when you need a power fist, not a sword, or a sterngaurd who could double as a sgt for a regular squad.
Just a single, cheap, random marine would be great to pick up any time you're at your local store for the hell of it. I basically do the same with X wing and I don't play that all that much, and those are more than $5 a ship.
Well it would be a percentage of a chance for anything other than a regular tactical (and shielded behind a plastic box so that the newest pastime in the store wouldn't be to feel up all the random packs) with the captain being the rarest.
Still though, a cheap pack with the promise of a much more expensive model would probably drive sales through the roof, and without actually lowering the value of their models.
For me its not the models. They cost what they cost and like others, I just dont feel the value of the plastic and sculpts being worth the dollars I put out for them. Especially when I can get just a good of looking models from other companies for lesser cost. But that is just part of being expensive, it isn't really feeling expensive at this point.
The real feeling of expense is in the books. Just to play the game, you need a rule book, and a codex. Probably two as a lot of factions have more than one book in order to get all of the options. Already your putting down 120 - 180 dollars in books and have no way to actually play the game. So that feels expensive. Imagine having to pay an extra 10 dollars for the rule book that comes in each MTG starter box.
But on top of that, just look at the books themselves. What a joke. Its obvious that GW does no employ a single editor. Look at all the wasted space. Look at the recycled photos of stock models where once unique and original artwork used to sit. Ohh... this fluff piece. Yeah, I've read it three times already in the last three codexs that were put out.
The quality of what your getting has just gone down hill hard. Its like buying college text books. You know you have to buy the damn thing and are only going to get one years worth of use out of it, before it becomes outdated and will sit forever on your book shelf and having no way to sell it back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My personal theory is because GW has the same price marketing strategy as apple. Make your product expensive so that your customers value it as a premium product.
I guess it failed on you.
It feels expensive because the brand as a whole is priced as a premium product, while the actual thing is quite far from being a true premium product. Considering their price tags, the books tend to be brutally underwhelming in both background, rules and quality control issues. The models themselves, while mostly good at this stage, are simply not worth the prices asked for them, not even close.
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/2014-15-Press-statement-final-website-final.pdf wrote:
Secondly I will review our product range
.We believe this is long overdue it is time for a resetting of the ranges. Not tweaking here and
there but a top down reassessment. I expect to update you further at the half year. We will aim to continue to deliver outstanding
product and customer service, maintain our Group gross margin and continue to improve our Group stock turn. To be absolutely
clear I will not be reducing the RRP of our products: they are premium priced for their premium quality. I will, however, be looking
to offer a broader range of price points. This is exciting and is for the long term, so I'm not promising when you will see
a change. We have already started the brainstorming in our monthly strategic product meetings. It is early days, but I can already foresee some
busy times ahead
Since then the price differentiation was: add products with a higher price so that your old normally priced kits become the low priced range
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: Well it would be a percentage of a chance for anything other than a regular tactical (and shielded behind a plastic box so that the newest pastime in the store wouldn't be to feel up all the random packs) with the captain being the rarest.
Still though, a cheap pack with the promise of a much more expensive model would probably drive sales through the roof, and without actually lowering the value of their models.
I'd LOVE to see that as metal models like the old blisters you used to have as special/heavy weapons and sgts. So yes you might only get a tactical, but it'll be a single pose tactical who's kneeling, or drawing a knife, or something you can't post a model doing with the plastic kit.
It feels expensive because GW keep making fairly frequent changes that to a greater or lesser dagree invalidate whatever set of models and books you have at point in time. This requires you to buy more books and models to replace and supplement the ones you already have paid for. It's like joining a subscription based service.
Many games are not like that. You buy the rules and an army, then you are done. I have Ancient armies 25 years old that are valid with nearly all the modern rulebooks.
In some cases the army lists have changed a bit and I need to update them with some new figures, much like buying a Tyrranocyte for my Tyranids.
The difference is that the Ancient rules have changed twice over 25 years, not four times over five years like 40K.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this hobby isn't expensive, as it is, but most hobbies are rather expensive. This one just seems to feel especially expensive when compared to similar costed hobbies.
I'll get into more detail about some of the replies when I'm not posting from my phone but I'd like to respond to what Killjrazy said. I don't think it's how often things change, if anything you look at Magic and the most popular modes of play constantly change. Standard has a rotation every year for example, and a standard deck can easily cost a few hundred dollars. Limited formats are also the same in that sense and while you can open expensive cards most of what you open isn't worth what you pay. In fact the most popular limited formats were Modern Masters which were something like 30-40$ a draft, during their cheaper periods. The only formats that are slower to change are Eternal Formats and those can easily cost a few thousand dollars to buy into, which is far more than 40k.
So I personally don't believe a constantly evolving game is a bad thing, if anything it's probably really good if done right. If anything, I think 40k progresses too slowly as many armies might not get a new codex for a whole edition of the game or more. Personally if it was up to me I'd say every army should get a new codex each edition, even if it's a minor update in some cases which could be sold as a mini supplement.
The most likely culprit is a deeply embedded presumption that Warhammer 40,000 is more expensive than anything on the planet (which is not far off from what some claim) and it is affecting your judgement on a semi-subconcious level.
A thing that affects many other factors that often end up as statements that simply aren't true when it comes to WH40K.
Source: A player with gravbikes, tigurius & cents, Smashbane claiming he has no chance against my toned down Tau list. We switch lists and I crush him. He was driven by belief he got by reading Dakkadakka (essentially; Tau is so OP they can't be beaten with anything.) And it's simply not true.
Most hobbies are expensive and 40k doesn't stand out much in this regard, but you just don't get enough value from your money anymore if you're in it for the gaming aspect.
Well, 40k feels not so much expensive as AoS here. We have one apoc event per month and one has the possibility to play a game on a friendly basis each weekend. But AoS is dead here. If you have an AoS army, you are stuck in the middle of nowhere.
Am I the only one waiting for Jah to make an appearance here to tell us he thinks the miniatures are amazing and are totally worth the price and that he thinks there the best deal cause there the best miniatures etc etc.
His posts always cheer me up cause its rare to see someone so optimistic about something alot of us are frothing angry about.
My 2 cents is that you don't feel bad about the money that you spend on other things is because the company you buy from at least seems to care that you are buying form them .
Magic has power creep but magic also hosts great tournaments and give out cool prizes and is active on the forums and ..you know...responds?
Blizzard is known for treating its customers like there super special and they really value their business.
These companies may not really care...but they sure pretend well
GW...doesn't seem to care..at all...about you.. Just your money. So when you buy something....you feel that you giving money to a souless jackass that charges too much
rayphoton wrote: Am I the only one waiting for Jah to make an appearance here to tell us he thinks the miniatures are amazing and are totally worth the price and that he thinks there the best deal cause there the best miniatures etc etc.
Can't say for certain they are the "best" because that would be a blanket statement, but even objectively they are of damn good quality and the kits mostly well designed. One should check the price for modern kids toys these days.
My tournament WM/H army cost more than my WH40K army does, as the standard is 2 lists. I also bought a box of 10 Bane Knights last month, they cost 53,2€, and they had a 20% discount. They make up one quarter of one of my two army lists.
Also, their quality is, even objectively speaking, purely crap when compared to GW kits. Their weapons are always bent right out of the box, and have a lot of casting debris. They are not even nearly as easy to assemble as GW plastic has been for a long time. This is my 3rd box of Bane Knights in 12 years, I know what I speak of.
Less value for the buck than anything in my WH40K army, be it qualitywise or pointswise.
Well, i play Blood Bowl. Thats a somewhat cheap game. Mean to say, buy the box, you're done. No real need to buy any other teams, you get 2 in the box.
I love the game. Been collecting the figures Before there were figures for the game. Being into the game, i started converting D&D type figures right away.
Last count, i have over(i say over, because i got about 60 bb figures for xmas)1,200(yes. 1,200+) blood bowl/fantasy football figures. The only thing i don't collect is "sideline staff"(coaches, cheerleaders, apoth. etc). Thats just teams/stars/big guys(do i NEED 15 trolls?).
Its the joy of painting. Of converting a "warhammer" rat ogre into a fantasy football rat ogre.
You get the idea. It is what you want it to be. Don't like the cost of a 40k army at retail? Troll EBAY. Or play a "kill team" style game with less put out costs. Or find a different system.
I think with 40k, as compared to other things, the percentage of your army that each purchase makes up is relatively small.
Take, for example, a Tactical Squad w/drop pod. This is a standard troop choice, nothing weird or unique about it. With all the bells and whistles, this is probably under 200 points (180?) So roughly 10% of my army list.
It costs $75 for the two if bought directly. That's very expensive for what is a troop choice that isn't even very good, and marines tend to have good deals. I need to buy 1 more just to play (or I can buy Rhinos which are even more expensive...) plus the rulebook, plus codex. So, for the books, I'm looking at ~150, and to play, I'm looking at ~200. That's 350 just to play an extremely small game (400 pts? Not even unless I waste points on upgrades just to up it). I'd still need to spend another 50 at least to reach 500. These aren't even competitive choices.
For a Stormwall, a Cygnar model, it's 120-130 when I got mine. It's just shy of 20 points, so it's about 30% of my list for most games. In a 2 list format, I can use the Storm wall in both lists if I wanted to (many armies have core units that are used constantly in lists, like Choir, Gunmages, Murderponies) making it 30% of two lists. It's a beautiful model and huge, doesn't take long to build either.
WMH also has great deals (the battle boxes and all in ones) while 40k doesn't anymore. Makes it much harder to play, and there really isn't anything like a journeyman league in 40k like there is in warmachine.
I can buy a battle box for a 15 point army, or the two army starter for cheap (this is equivalent to a 500 point game). The all in one has a 35 point army, which is about a 1250 point game, for $150. There is nothing like that in 40k. if people could spend 150 and have 1000 points in 40k, the complaints would go away . Most of the options in the all in one are pretty good, usually some of the better options the dex has (mostly, I can't speak for every army. The Cryx and Cygnar ones are good, though the cryx one is better).
So, per model wise, 40k seems fine, though a little expensive. Game wise, 40k is much more expensive than anything else. The longer you stay in the game, the more expensive 40k becomes, since what is strong changes requiring new purchases.
Runic, I have no idea where he got that idea from, but he is horrendously misreading dakka dakka. People on here do not claim Tau are unbeatable for marines if they take the good options. If anything, marines are a great counter for Tau since grav solves a lot of problems with the larger suits and they can reach CC turn 2. Not to mention the Gladius strike force. All of the top 4 can play against each other pretty well if they go competitive.
The argument or discussion isn't about hobbies, it's about why 40K feels expensive.
There is a simple reason for this. 40K actually is expensive compared to comparable wargame hobbies like Infinity, Warmachine, or historicals generally, and it's expensive compared to comparable modelling hobbies like tank or Gundam modelling.
There's no point comparing it to golf, or J Class yacht racing, or collecting Patek Philllipe watches.
Whether you feel 40K is worth the extra expense compared to other similar hobbies is a separate matter. Many people do. That is how GW stay in business.
It's expensive, but it depends on how you build. For example after crunching numbers I decided to drop trying to build a full battle suit Tau army since most of the boxes I'd have to pick up sit around the $125 mark, and it sat at something like $924 to go to be playable. Where as if I go with the Ad Mech idea I've had, I drop like half of that on most boxes which works better.
Basically there's this sort of psychological effect where your mind reacts to the price you pay at the time, so smaller chunks over a longer time while even having the chance to cost more in total will actually feel cheaper to you because of it. So some armies can feel a lot more expensive than others.
n0t_u wrote: It's expensive, but it depends on how you build. For example after crunching numbers I decided to drop trying to build a full battle suit Tau army since most of the boxes I'd have to pick up sit around the $125 mark, and it sat at something like $924 to go to be playable. Where as if I go with the Ad Mech idea I've had, I drop like half of that on most boxes which works better.
Basically there's this sort of psychological effect where your mind reacts to the price you pay at the time, so smaller chunks over a longer time while even having the chance to cost more in total will actually feel cheaper to you because of it. So some armies can feel a lot more expensive than others.
Yup, exactly that. Smaller chunks makes us open our wallets easier. Unfortunately to do so that means GW would be taking a hit on individual model kit sales (even if they don't reduce the actual price of the models and just divided them into chunks, the cost for GW will still be the same as 1 sprue will cost them x amount of money to stamp, regardless of how big it actually is, as well as transport, storage and other secondary costs). Unfortunately GW doesn't see that they would gain a net profit from this type of tactic and instead seeing it as them losing money on each individual piece (which means that, while they are gaining more money per dollar invested, they are not getting high enough volumes of money).
I generally 2-4k points at a time now. I don't think it feels more or less expensive than buying small increments. Much easier to spend much more (and to end up wasting money) when you buy a bit at a time.
That said, there are other games that feel more expensive to me. Xwing in particular feels really expensive for these little pre-built and pre-painted models
It is expensive, but not as expensive and bad as modern AAA gaming. I migrated here from those desolate wastes making this my primary hobby. Both companies are trying to get you addicted, but at least GW's products work and function. In modern gaming your usually getting addicted to a game that is just bad and simply there to get your money. Travesties like cookie clicker make it apparent why half of the worlds money is controlled by so few.
Now Square Enix wants to cut up and divide its games up as much as possible. Now they want to split Deus Ex Mankind Divided into three games when it was nearly done. Cut gak out of that for dlc. Look at Konami's fething abhorrent treatment of Kojima. I simply can't abide the gaming worlds brutal dictatorship anymore. At least gamers aren't being insulted by the developers themselves here in 40k land. #FuckModernVideoGames
While I agree with Not_U's point, that buying small chunks makes it feel like less money, I still hold to my point that 40K requires you to keep on buying lots of small chunks forever.
That too. Extra Credits did an episode on collectable games (which 40k arguably fits into, even if it's not the trading kind) and the primary reason for those to latch onto you is because you are invested in your collection, and thus feel like it's a bigger loss to just give up on it. But when the codex rules basically force you to give up on it every year or so, it becomes increasingly harder to get invested, which is like what you said and the cost feeling that much more heavier.
The Models still feel ok in price( well most of them anyways). It's the books that scare people off. There is 0 reason 5 blood knights should be over 100 dollars imo
When I tried to get my friends into 40k, trying to explain to them that they'd need a 50 dollar book, and later on eventually a 75 dollar book if I wasn't there and my rulebook wasn't available, before they could even start buying models and building their armies, They thought I was out of my damn mind for playing this game.
For a "Miniatures" company, they sure like to beat us down on the prices for the rules. And that's not including FW books. If you use a codex, the brb, and two FW books, you're talking about 300 dollars just in paper, which is, barring really expensive lists, usually about half the cost of your army.
Oh here's some more examples. Motal Kommbat X on PC has zero pc support incoming. It's being left broken and unfixed and launched disastrously. It won't be getting any DLC. So now PC support is dead for all those people who paid for the game and its season pass.
Hit man is being split up into "episodic" content. It was an almost finished game and now they cut it up. It's pay what you want. Want that level? Pay for it. Want that gun? Pay for it. Want the next story missions? Pay for it. It's dlc the fething game. Want to be able to do these mini games? Buy the mini games.
Now watch these games be terrible and not work well and be worth the money and yet they want to rip them to shreds and get us to pay up anyways.
I fething hate modern gaming. This is news for today folks. There's rarely any sort of good news these days in video game land. Now you know why I'm here.
I'm dubious about most things Extra Credit says and honestly the issue with that is, is that Magic rotates constantly forcing you to give up large chunks of your collections use at a time, at least the most popular formats do. 40k on the other hand, despite its version of rotation allows you to use most of your old models in some way. More so, it's actually possible to repurpose models in 40k, the same is not true for cards.
As for the topic of large purchases, I think the scope of the purchase does play a part, but not only because of the number. The most expensive individual Magic card I bought was 800$ cash, it was an Ancestral Recall from unlimited. I didn't even buy it to put in a box somewhere but to play in my Vintage deck in the various events that happened at least once a month for that format, one of which had a 100$ buy just to play because of the prize structure. Honestly, I was down right giddy buying it and then owning it, to me it was a piece of history being twenty years old and just an awesome card. This card was useable only in one format that is predominantly considered a dead format and most of the events for it allow a set number of proxies as it allows them to get 30+ people despite some cards costing over a thousand dollars individually now. I don't feel this way about any 40k purchase, not because of risk of rotation, but because despite it being supported to this day, it has less stuff for me to do than a "dead" format that is ridiculously more expensive in another game.
Maybe that's just it, there's always a dread of "will I get to use this" in comparison to other hobbies. I don't think any other hobby out there boasts the same price tag and lack of use of hobby goods like GW product does.
The most recent one was the Crimefest 2015 debacle, where in an event where they promised Free Content to people, they start off by declaring that they now have Microtransactions. Where the skins give you in-game boosts (that range from useless to gamebreaking). Granted, the REST of the update was indeed free, but ho boy. And this is on top of the 100+ dollars in DLCs that the game churns out (which is a totally different can of worms).
JimOnMars wrote: I agree with those who bring up the random nature of the MtG boosterpacks, and how the chance of getting a rare card boosts the perceived value.
No matter how many ork boyz kits I buy, I'm never going to open the box and discover I actually got a wraithknight.
I don't like gambling at all. When I played MTG I bought the best cards and then just trounced people. I started to get bored of MTG. I loved it when I played but had my fill just as Return to Ravnica was getting started and I picked it up in the middle of Scars of Mirrodin.
Edit
I was lucky enough to open some boosters and I opened 4 snapcasters.
Edit
I seen the payday fiasco. I feel so bad for those players.
When the 7th edition ork codex was released it felt like a kick in the butt to me. The guy at the game shop telling me "your ork codex sucks but if you spend another $50 on this supplement book it won't suck so bad." So for $100 in codex books and $85 for the 7th edition rulebook I can get into the game, that's $200 in books if you add in taxes. When you add in the turn and burn of GW codex and rulebook releases you will be lucky to get two years out of those books.
JimOnMars wrote: I agree with those who bring up the random nature of the MtG boosterpacks, and how the chance of getting a rare card boosts the perceived value.
No matter how many ork boyz kits I buy, I'm never going to open the box and discover I actually got a wraithknight.
To be fair, a lot of people, myself included do not buy booster packs outside of limited events, but rather by singles. The secondary market is a massive part of the game. In fact the SGO doesn't use it's tournaments to make money as much as it uses them to buy cards that will be resold. The same goes for gaming stores going to conventions, they're there to pick up stock more than to just sell.
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Chute82 wrote: When the 7th edition ork codex was released it felt like a kick in the butt to me. The guy at the game shop telling me "your ork codex sucks but if you spend another $50 on this supplement book it won't suck so bad." So for $100 in codex books and $85 for the 7th edition rulebook I can get into the game, that's $200 in books if you add in taxes. When you add in the turn and burn of GW codex and rulebook releases you will be lucky to get two years out of those books.
General question, but would it be better if the codexes were smaller, but cheaper and came out more often? As in say a 25$ codex once a year, and then a supplement of 10$. Free FAQs online obviously, and if an army is in a good place their new yearly codex is just a reprint with the FAQs and new cover art and maybe mini fluff, maybe a new unit or formation on occasion.
Just a once a year release date for new codexes for every major army, or split it up into two yearly shifts or something. Then have mini supplements be extra as needed.
Gamgee wrote: I fething hate modern gaming. This is news for today folks. There's rarely any sort of good news these days in video game land. Now you know why I'm here.
"Modern gaming" is a crazy big world, you know. There are actually a ton of companies out there producing video games and not all of them are only interested in scamming you. As with miniatures though, you'll need to dig a bit deep and get past the most mainstream gaming in order to reach the true jewels and the best deals.
If you're patient and know where to look, you can get the best games out there for a very reasonable price. If you can't wait and just throw obscene amounts of money at each new shiny game without even bothering to check if it's any good, then you're stupid and deserve to get scammed.
It actually works pretty much the same in the miniature market. If you believed you were switching to a radically different world, sorry to disappoint you.
My main issue with GWs pricing is the age old € per point value discrepency.
Ork mek guns being the ultimate case in point.
Or FWs absolutely criminal Raven scout unit (€72 inc shipping) for 110(?) points.
I have no issue paying for models but when they cost €X and add minimal points to your army, thats what really irks me.
Or when a unit costs €X and their rules just plain and outright SUCK. Hello maleceptor and toxicrene
Gamgee wrote: I fething hate modern gaming. This is news for today folks. There's rarely any sort of good news these days in video game land. Now you know why I'm here.
"Modern gaming" is a crazy big world, you know. There are actually a ton of companies out there producing video games and not all of them are only interested in scamming you. As with miniatures though, you'll need to dig a bit deep and get past the most mainstream gaming in order to reach the true jewels and the best deals.
If you're patient and know where to look, you can get the best games out there for a very reasonable price. If you can't wait and just throw obscene amounts of money at each new shiny game without even bothering to check if it's any good, then you're stupid and deserve to get scammed.
It actually works pretty much the same in the miniature market. If you believed you were switching to a radically different world, sorry to disappoint you.
Nah even indies suck these days. Look at the endless tide of unity store flips. The golden age of gaming is dead. We're in the dark ages now. I'm not saying no good games are ever released, but it's like a.... rare event these days. I find most critically acclaimed indie games are accomplished but over hyped. Few can keep my attention these days.
Edit
That's exactly what I'm doing Korinov. Not buying games and being a discerning customer. It just so happens by being discerning I've found the 99.9999999...% found wanting in these dark days of gaming. Worse than Games Workshop. Which is funny. I used to tell my friends in video game land how bad GW was. I didn't even have an army back then and I knew. GW is still bad, but games got far far worse.
In the Age of Consoles, the world was unformed, shrouded by fog.
A land of TV's, contracts, and everlasting publishers.
But then there was PC Gaming.
And with PC Gaming, came Disparity.
Creativity and Monotony, fun and unfun, and of course... Cool and Uncool.
Then, from the Dark, they came, and found the souls of lords within the PC Game.
Half Life 2, the game of the decade, the Steam Client, and her Daughters of Unified Servers, Gabe Newel, the Lord of PC Gaming Light, and his faithful knights, and the furtive pc players, so easily forgotten.
With the Strength of Lords, they challenged the publishers.
Gabe's mighty bolts peeled apart their bad games.
Steam weaved great online networks.
Half Life 2 unleashed a barrage of fame and fortune.
And Bethesda the Scaleless betrayed his own, and the publishers were no more.
Thus began the Age of PC Gaming.
But soon, pc gaming will fade, and only Dark will remain.
Even now, there are only embers, and pc gamer kind sees not light, but only endless cash grabs and schisms.
And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Modsign.
Tinkrr wrote: I'm dubious about most things Extra Credit says and honestly the issue with that is, is that Magic rotates constantly forcing you to give up large chunks of your collections use at a time, at least the most popular formats do. 40k on the other hand, despite its version of rotation allows you to use most of your old models in some way. More so, it's actually possible to repurpose models in 40k, the same is not true for cards.
As for the topic of large purchases, I think the scope of the purchase does play a part, but not only because of the number. The most expensive individual Magic card I bought was 800$ cash, it was an Ancestral Recall from unlimited. I didn't even buy it to put in a box somewhere but to play in my Vintage deck in the various events that happened at least once a month for that format, one of which had a 100$ buy just to play because of the prize structure. Honestly, I was down right giddy buying it and then owning it, to me it was a piece of history being twenty years old and just an awesome card. This card was useable only in one format that is predominantly considered a dead format and most of the events for it allow a set number of proxies as it allows them to get 30+ people despite some cards costing over a thousand dollars individually now. I don't feel this way about any 40k purchase, not because of risk of rotation, but because despite it being supported to this day, it has less stuff for me to do than a "dead" format that is ridiculously more expensive in another game.
Maybe that's just it, there's always a dread of "will I get to use this" in comparison to other hobbies. I don't think any other hobby out there boasts the same price tag and lack of use of hobby goods like GW product does.
For competitive people Standard is the most popular, but for the casual guy in college (which seems to be the majority of MTG players here), they generally play "casuals" or, at best, Modern. In fact Modern was created specifically because people felt like Extended didn't give enough longevity to their cards and Commander was made because people wanted to use a card that they had one copy of, but can't afford a playset. Also, repurposing does exist in magic to a degree; if a card is reprinted, then any prints of it is valid for all formats it was printed in. Another part about repurposing is the "eternal" formats where new cards can enhance interactions. Remember when Dark Depths was worthless because no one wanted to wait 10 turns to summon Marit Lage? With Vampire Hexmage, a card printed loooong after Dark Depths came out, the older card is suddenly given new value (quite ridiculously so when this was found out) so there's a lot of incentive to keep them around.
Another thing is that I avoided mentioning the Secondary market because a large portion of the pricing issue in 40k is levied against the company, while in MTG it's divided evenly between the community and the company (due to the latter making some cards only available in obscure sets). However because the company always keep the "Cheap" value open, it actually lessens the impact of the heavier purchases. A question is no longer "do I want to drop 400 bucks on an army) but rather "would I prefer to risk buying packs to get the card/something of value to trade for it or just skip the middleman and buy the card I want". That and such big purchases generally are "treats", extraordinary purchases for comfort. For 40k, such purchases are, sadly the norm and impulse buys are totally nonexistant. How many times would you walk into a card shop on a whim and walked out with something, even a 5c common, and how many times have you walked into a 40k store to browse and walked out with something? Most of the time I just walk out trying to plan out my next visit for purchases, or flat out avoid walking in at all because I know I can't afford anything on a whim.
That's actually another interesting topic you mentioned, that games like MtG, despite having very rigid and defined rule sets tend to have significantly more user created content that is eventually picked up by the company itself. Things like EDH and Cube were created by the player base that wanted to play with non-competitive cards in a competitive way, but are now officially supported by Wizards. Even Modern was partially created by the community when they made "Over Extended" which mimicked the old (pre-super Standard) Extended format but didn't rotate. However, I think their cut off point was something like odyssey but the original ban lists were the same.
Meanwhile we have 40k which depends heavily on house rules and we see almost none of that amazing creativity. I mean I have some ideas in mind that I plan to post once I format, but yea, I think it shows the value of having a strong and heavily defined rule system that players can then use to innovate. Even League of Legends, DotA, and Counter Strike were all mods to existing games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the gaming industry as a whole, it's not that we're seeing less good games, if anything we're probably seeing more, it's just that now pretty much everyone has the tools to release and publish a game, so we're also seeing a lot more junk. There has always been more junk than there have been good games, that's just natural though. Remember we're not the generation that had the ET game.
40k has a much higher up front cost than card games but minis tend to last longer. For example I bought most of my marine units back in 5th edition and more or less run the same stuff even years latter. I agree though that getting new people into the game is getting harder because the initial buy in is high.
Tinkrr wrote: That's actually another interesting topic you mentioned, that games like MtG, despite having very rigid and defined rule sets tend to have significantly more user created content that is eventually picked up by the company itself. Things like EDH and Cube were created by the player base that wanted to play with non-competitive cards in a competitive way, but are now officially supported by Wizards. Even Modern was partially created by the community when they made "Over Extended" which mimicked the old (pre-super Standard) Extended format but didn't rotate. However, I think their cut off point was something like odyssey but the original ban lists were the same.
Meanwhile we have 40k which depends heavily on house rules and we see almost none of that amazing creativity. I mean I have some ideas in mind that I plan to post once I format, but yea, I think it shows the value of having a strong and heavily defined rule system that players can then use to innovate. Even League of Legends, DotA, and Counter Strike were all mods to existing games.
The thing is Games Workshop now has zero interest in the hobby section of the game and only wants to sell their products, while Wizards still take an active interest within the community. Currently formats like Pauper, Singleton (outside of Commander) and Casual formats are not officially supported by Wizards, but nonetheless they frequently write articles about these formats anyways. Games Workshop use to do this with Kill Team, Combat Patrol, and narrative campaigns (like, actual campaigns, not a source book with a series of missions) within their Black Gobbo E-zine. That was the heyday of 40k. Imagine if Games Workshop endorsed videos made by Miniwargaming and directed people who wanted to discuss 40k to our forums (or, better yet, actually appointed Mods within our YMDC forum to be semi-official rules judges, like magic does with their Judge Certification system). It would be a huge boon to the fanbase and maybe lessen the impact of the models too, as well as make their constant chants of "Forge the Narrative" sound a lot less dodgy, since it'd feel like there was actually a narrative in the background, rather than just a few people on the forums squabbling over which chapter a Rhino belonged to. (GW, if you're listening to all of this, note that all of the things I suggested would Not Cost You A Cent to do.)
Part of the reason I feel disappointed when people say this is the era of 40k because of all the awesome models we have now is because it's usually (not always, but usually) said by people who jumped into the game about half a decade ago, long after Black Gobbo disappeared and the hobby aspect was exterminatus'd out of the GW website. To this day I still get people who are amazed when I show them a Wayback Machine version of the website and the slew of hobby content it had, or a page from one of my old, old codexes showing terrain made from plastic house plants. The irony of their "Forge the Narrative" slogan stings even harder when you notice they removed Kill Team and Combat Patrol completely from their core rulebook. Before these use to be the "entry" points into the hobby and really did forge a narrative; you started with a rag-tag bunch of misfits and then built up to a few squads and a tank, then maybe one of them emerged as a hero and as your commander for whom your core 1000 point army would be based around. You didn't need to forge a narrative there, it evolved by itself.
You are right, there's a lot of potential, but GW no longer sees that potential worth investing in, which is another reason why the whole game feels so expensive and empty.
From what you're typing here, you seem to be currently walking through a period of heavy disillusion with videogaming. There's nothing wrong with that, it can happen to everyone.
There's something very important in regards to videogames though: you have to know what kind of games you really enjoy. Tastes may change over time sure, but seriously, the first step towards enjoying gaming is usually getting to know your own tastes. If you're not into a certain type of genre... it doesn't matter how good a game may be, you won't probably like it, and if you've paid good money for it you'll obviously feel scammed.
Currently, the amount of games being released is so insanely huge that for me, it's enough to compensate for some shady and worrysome practices that seem to have taken a strong grip on the industry. Of course, as well as knowing your tastes, you also need to know who you're buying from. If you heavily dislike certain companies' ways of doing things, never buy games from them. Example? Dragon Age 2 taught me (the hard way) not to buy another EA game ever again. The way they've handled their Assassin's Creed franchise also told me (from afar, never really been a fan) that it's better to stay away from Ubisoft.
As for indie games, they usually have a more modest scope than your typical AAA game, so their actual target population is smaller too. Before throwing your money at an indie game, learn about it for a while then decide if it's actually a game for you.
In the end, if you carefully choose what games to buy and when (never buy a game on release, wait until it's been patched and on discount, don't be stupid enough to pay full retail then do tester's job) you'll probably get great value from your games, and they won't feel expensive.
Tinkrr wrote:As for the gaming industry as a whole, it's not that we're seeing less good games, if anything we're probably seeing more, it's just that now pretty much everyone has the tools to release and publish a game, so we're also seeing a lot more junk. There has always been more junk than there have been good games, that's just natural though. Remember we're not the generation that had the ET game.
Agreed. It's just a matter of being a responsible customer and not buying things blindly.
One problem with the current industry is how it goes into clone overdrive the moment something makes it big. Call of Duty is probably the biggest example of this, as a ton of clones cropped up after it's success and games that are not necessarily clones started using it's mechanics, resulting in a weird "Seinfeld is Unfunny" moment where CoD feels cliched and tired, even though it was the one who started some of these trends. The mobile gaming market is even worse, as anything remotely popular is cloned until death. That is one of the reasons why we feel like the majority of games are bad, cuz they really are and they somehow managed to drag the good ones down with them.
That being said, a lot of games are capable of creating stories and new experiences unlike anything that was available before.
This War of Mine, Last of Us, The Walking Dead are all excellent games/stories/experiences that I would heartily suggest to anyone. The latter two at least deserve a Lets Play.
Tinkrr wrote: That's actually another interesting topic you mentioned, that games like MtG, despite having very rigid and defined rule sets tend to have significantly more user created content that is eventually picked up by the company itself. Things like EDH and Cube were created by the player base that wanted to play with non-competitive cards in a competitive way, but are now officially supported by Wizards. Even Modern was partially created by the community when they made "Over Extended" which mimicked the old (pre-super Standard) Extended format but didn't rotate. However, I think their cut off point was something like odyssey but the original ban lists were the same.
Meanwhile we have 40k which depends heavily on house rules and we see almost none of that amazing creativity. I mean I have some ideas in mind that I plan to post once I format, but yea, I think it shows the value of having a strong and heavily defined rule system that players can then use to innovate. Even League of Legends, DotA, and Counter Strike were all mods to existing games.
The thing is Games Workshop now has zero interest in the hobby section of the game and only wants to sell their products, while Wizards still take an active interest within the community. Currently formats like Pauper, Singleton (outside of Commander) and Casual formats are not officially supported by Wizards, but nonetheless they frequently write articles about these formats anyways. Games Workshop use to do this with Kill Team, Combat Patrol, and narrative campaigns (like, actual campaigns, not a source book with a series of missions) within their Black Gobbo E-zine. That was the heyday of 40k. Imagine if Games Workshop endorsed videos made by Miniwargaming and directed people who wanted to discuss 40k to our forums (or, better yet, actually appointed Mods within our YMDC forum to be semi-official rules judges, like magic does with their Judge Certification system). It would be a huge boon to the fanbase and maybe lessen the impact of the models too, as well as make their constant chants of "Forge the Narrative" sound a lot less dodgy, since it'd feel like there was actually a narrative in the background, rather than just a few people on the forums squabbling over which chapter a Rhino belonged to. (GW, if you're listening to all of this, note that all of the things I suggested would Not Cost You A Cent to do.)
Part of the reason I feel disappointed when people say this is the era of 40k because of all the awesome models we have now is because it's usually (not always, but usually) said by people who jumped into the game about half a decade ago, long after Black Gobbo disappeared and the hobby aspect was exterminatus'd out of the GW website. To this day I still get people who are amazed when I show them a Wayback Machine version of the website and the slew of hobby content it had, or a page from one of my old, old codexes showing terrain made from plastic house plants. The irony of their "Forge the Narrative" slogan stings even harder when you notice they removed Kill Team and Combat Patrol completely from their core rulebook. Before these use to be the "entry" points into the hobby and really did forge a narrative; you started with a rag-tag bunch of misfits and then built up to a few squads and a tank, then maybe one of them emerged as a hero and as your commander for whom your core 1000 point army would be based around. You didn't need to forge a narrative there, it evolved by itself.
You are right, there's a lot of potential, but GW no longer sees that potential worth investing in, which is another reason why the whole game feels so expensive and empty.
I'm brand new to the hobby. I've followed the lore and even played VGs and RPGs based on the universe for years, but I only started buying models and codices a couple months ago. This does seem like a bad time to get into 40k, but I chose to do so intentionally. Keep in mind that this is my first edition, and I realize that might invalidate my opinion in a lot of people's eyes, but I did a TON of research into the history of this game (as well as WHFB) before jumping in.
I see endless potential in the game, and I see that potential being held back by its creators. I do not see GW as some greedy, evil corporation sitting around, scheming new ways to separate their fanbase from its money. I see a company that is jaded with a game that has grown bloated and stale, just as jaded as its fanbase. AoS is my proof of this. AoS isn't just a reboot. It's a reset button. AoS is GW saying "Well, there's only one way to fix this gak. Rocks fall. Everyone Dies! Now let's start from zero and see what happens".
The next few years are going to suck for 40k. More poorly-written codices are going to be released. More ridiculous rules are going to be argued on forums like our. GW will withdraw into their dark, dank lairs, only sticking their heads out long enough to throw a new codex out the door, then ducking back inside before that players waiting outside with pitchforks realize the door was open.
Then, one day, something glorious is going to happen: the top brass at GW will start to resign. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying here. No one person at GW is to blame for the current holding pattern the game is in. It seems like the entire company is in the "just do whatever we have to so long as people buy stuff every now and then so we can keep the lights on" mindset. Eventually, though, the top of the company will be pressured to quit due to a severe drop in sale and product interest. That's when someone else will take over. If we are lucky, that someone will have grown up playing Warhammer. This will be our God Emperor. He will cut a swath through the rules bloat. He will launch a Great Crusade across the message boards and social media. He will unite the fanbase in the new glorious Golden Age of Warhammer!
I don't know that this is what will happen, but I've worked for corporations long enough to know that those who show blind, cackling disdain for their customers usually don't last long. I have faith the GW and its investor have enough survival instinct to know that the current trend is most decidedly downward. That's why I chose to go ahead and start now. When the game bounces back, and it will (if 4E didn't kill D&D, 7E won't kill 40k), I want to be that hipster douche telling all the new kiddies "I was playing Warhammer before it was cool".
I would highly recommend you check out Black Gobbo in the Wayback Machine. It would actually shock you at how GW pennypinched itself in it's own articles back then. In fact, when they were accused of making unbalanced rules, they dedicated a whole article to discuss it (and basically telling people that if you do happen to find one of those combos, use it once for fun and don't be a douche about it while they're errating it out). This is in stark contrast to their "We've read your email but we can't respond" response they have now.
Ultimately for all of our grumbles, very few of us know exactly what's going on in GW's headquarters (those of us that do are probably either under NDAs or drowned out by the numerous equally-plausable reasons running around), as almost all people who've tried to analyze their situation have come up with conflicting answers (namely, their massive increase in profitability is usually a sign that they want to sell the company...but that was 4 years ago).
In general, most of us have long since given up hope that GW will ever return to it's old hobby-centric roots, as they've had multiple chances to do so but decided not to. But they do have a chance to turn things around if they take some initiative, and the recent Start Collecting Boxes and even AoS's free rules are a step in the right direction (now, granted, they took like 10 steps back by bungling most of their deals and rules, but hey, at least they're willing to step this way) so there is hope.
Its interesting noone is mentioning EBAY in all of this.
You can get a tac squad for 15 bucks, many character models for 5.
I started an orc army and got around 100 models with deffcoptas, trukks and everything for like 85 bucks.
I think the biggest problem I have isn't the cost, its the fact that to make the models look like the cool awesome ones in the GW books it takes A LOT of work.
It takes me around 2 nights just to paint one biker model. I'm lucky if I can fully paint an infantry model from basecoat to finished base fully in one night.
And I love painting - I could just imagine someone who drops 200+ bucks on an army and has the daunting task of assembling and painting it when all they want to do is play games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Image in Magic the Gathering if when you bought cards all they came with was the rules on the card and an empty picture box and you had to draw and color all the pictures on the cards yourself.
Funny part is the same result happens to a lot of people playing 40k - their armies look like crap and they are not super happy about that especially when it cost them like 500+ bucks for their army.
to me, 40k feels just as expensive as almost every other hobby. it's the value that the individual places on the models that makes them feel costly. For me, a 60 dollar model set includes: Assembling, painting, list building, and every game that I play that has the kit in it. For others, it's only assembly and gaming, or even more others: why buy anything other then what's good, and the value is only in the game. the same problem extends to every topic, a 5 dollar burger is going to feel a lot more expensive if you didn't like how it tasted.
It's hard to use Ebay to compare the prices of models, or amazon. The prices can change month to month, although I think everyone will readily admit that 40k probably has the largest selection on Ebay.
I'm not sure if that is from it's declining popularity or some other factor.
I remember we once argued about pricing on these forums, and someone claimed 40k was significantly cheaper because he got a huge discount (30%?) and didn't have to pay taxes on it, but did have to pay full price for WMH. It's not really a fair comparison to make.
I do agree that the assembly can be a problem for a gamer. I'm not really a hobbyist and usually outsource the assembly and painting myself, but others really like assembling everything and the painting. You have to take both viewpoints into consideration and consider it a wash. Same thing with X-wing coming the way it does...for some its a huge benefit, for others it's a reason to never start playing.
chaosmarauder wrote: Image in Magic the Gathering if when you bought cards all they came with was the rules on the card and an empty picture box and you had to draw and color all the pictures on the cards yourself.
Is it ok that the first thing that came to my mind when I read this was Cards Against Humanity?
For me the rulebook obstacle is far too expensive - and the standard game size is too large for me as well.
I bought a box of Skitarii to paint up last year and that was really fun. I will eventually build a small Skitarii force, but I'll aim for it to be "2nd Edition" size (30-ish models). Even my hay day of playing 40K - 5th edition - I used to play 1250pt games at the largest.
This is one of the reasons I love AoS, the total model count is much lower.
From what you're typing here, you seem to be currently walking through a period of heavy disillusion with videogaming. There's nothing wrong with that, it can happen to everyone.
There's something very important in regards to videogames though: you have to know what kind of games you really enjoy. Tastes may change over time sure, but seriously, the first step towards enjoying gaming is usually getting to know your own tastes. If you're not into a certain type of genre... it doesn't matter how good a game may be, you won't probably like it, and if you've paid good money for it you'll obviously feel scammed.
Currently, the amount of games being released is so insanely huge that for me, it's enough to compensate for some shady and worrysome practices that seem to have taken a strong grip on the industry. Of course, as well as knowing your tastes, you also need to know who you're buying from. If you heavily dislike certain companies' ways of doing things, never buy games from them. Example? Dragon Age 2 taught me (the hard way) not to buy another EA game ever again. The way they've handled their Assassin's Creed franchise also told me (from afar, never really been a fan) that it's better to stay away from Ubisoft.
As for indie games, they usually have a more modest scope than your typical AAA game, so their actual target population is smaller too. Before throwing your money at an indie game, learn about it for a while then decide if it's actually a game for you.
In the end, if you carefully choose what games to buy and when (never buy a game on release, wait until it's been patched and on discount, don't be stupid enough to pay full retail then do tester's job) you'll probably get great value from your games, and they won't feel expensive.
Tinkrr wrote:As for the gaming industry as a whole, it's not that we're seeing less good games, if anything we're probably seeing more, it's just that now pretty much everyone has the tools to release and publish a game, so we're also seeing a lot more junk. There has always been more junk than there have been good games, that's just natural though. Remember we're not the generation that had the ET game.
Agreed. It's just a matter of being a responsible customer and not buying things blindly.
Sounds like your sweeping all of the issues under the rug.
The thing is, if 40k is supposed to be a premium game and justify its price, then GW is doing a really bad job on the rules side of things. If nothing else, the FAQ issue is a major one. Companies like FFG and PP are way better at issuing FAQs and errata to keep the game balanced and it makes GW look really bad to neglect that.
Ebay is very tough to find deals. For orks at least, people seem to think random blobs of paint is "professionally painted" and charge more than retail. Occasionally a decent discount shows up that isn't Nobz of Kans. Pretty rare, though.
THERE ARE TWO S's IN GAMES WORKSHOP AND THEY ARE BOTH DOLLAR SIGNS.
Hung at at local geedupps for years, they remind me of an expensive lover that drags you heart over shards of broken glass. They want you money don't give a feth about you!
I was read to defend them to the bitter end, but with 7th ed is like calvin Ball and/ or forced apoc mad me go to the dark side.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I would highly recommend you check out Black Gobbo in the Wayback Machine.
Black Goblin D:
I remember that from when I last played, they actually wrote a thing in response to a question I submitted back then, it was about chaos terrain and they made one for each chaos god to show off...
Issue number three: "Ask the Scenery Guy: Daemon World Terrain (40k)"
That's me! Oh the good old days D:. I even remember it extra hard since I was so happy about it and talked about it at my local gaming club, which then unveiled their awesome Khorne board, to which the owner was all like "No, demon terrain, hu?" in the nicest way possible. What a great time.
Edit: They even corrected my horrible grammar and spelling at the time when they published my question, because I was a young teen and yea it was just amazing, something small like that made me buy a whole new army... Man, what happened to GW, now they don't even allow online retailers in my country to use a shopping cart feature :/.
j_p_chess wrote: THERE ARE TWO S's IN GAMES WORKSHOP AND THEY ARE BOTH DOLLAR SIGNS.
Hung at at local geedupps for years, they remind me of an expensive lover that drags you heart over shards of broken glass. They want you money don't give a feth about you!
I was read to defend them to the bitter end, but with 7th ed is like calvin Ball and/ or forced apoc mad me go to the dark side.
I feel really sorry for you, but I would say the people at my GW were awesome.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I would highly recommend you check out Black Gobbo in the Wayback Machine.
Black Goblin D:
I remember that from when I last played, they actually wrote a thing in response to a question I submitted back then, it was about chaos terrain and they made one for each chaos god to show off...
Issue number three: "Ask the Scenery Guy: Daemon World Terrain (40k)"
That's me! Oh the good old days D:. I even remember it extra hard since I was so happy about it and talked about it at my local gaming club, which then unveiled their awesome Khorne board, to which the owner was all like "No, demon terrain, hu?" in the nicest way possible. What a great time.
Edit: They even corrected my horrible grammar and spelling at the time when they published my question, because I was a young teen and yea it was just amazing, something small like that made me buy a whole new army... Man, what happened to GW, now they don't even allow online retailers in my country to use a shopping cart feature :/.
I didn't even know about independent retailers until a GW store manager told me about them. Fun fact; they even use to have a nickname for such people; Rogue Traders. I still have an old White Dwarf with yellowing pages that listed all the local ones.
The game was just as unbalanced back then, but little things like this use to be like a hot bowl of soup on a cold winter day. Now it's just licking icicles.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I would highly recommend you check out Black Gobbo in the Wayback Machine.
Black Goblin D:
I remember that from when I last played, they actually wrote a thing in response to a question I submitted back then, it was about chaos terrain and they made one for each chaos god to show off...
Issue number three: "Ask the Scenery Guy: Daemon World Terrain (40k)"
That's me! Oh the good old days D:. I even remember it extra hard since I was so happy about it and talked about it at my local gaming club, which then unveiled their awesome Khorne board, to which the owner was all like "No, demon terrain, hu?" in the nicest way possible. What a great time.
Edit: They even corrected my horrible grammar and spelling at the time when they published my question, because I was a young teen and yea it was just amazing, something small like that made me buy a whole new army... Man, what happened to GW, now they don't even allow online retailers in my country to use a shopping cart feature :/.
I didn't even know about independent retailers until a GW store manager told me about them. Fun fact; they even use to have a nickname for such people; Rogue Traders. I still have an old White Dwarf with yellowing pages that listed all the local ones.
The game was just as unbalanced back then, but little things like this use to be like a hot bowl of soup on a cold winter day. Now it's just licking icicles.
It was a super weird time, I remember when the store would have Eye of Terror narrative stuff, it even included BFG boarding maps. All of it was basically bring 500 points, wait in a queue and when a player go eliminated they would bring in another player. Something like 10+ players could be on a map at a time, since it was four 6x4 tables put together, whether it was assault on the Gates of Cadia, or something else. The store stuff was painted very well, with a lot of unique stuff. I think I went to three of these events...
There were other such events, such as the Halloween event, where you would bring a model with fluorescent paint for 40k, or WHFB, and just play in a zombie grinder, with each zombie being a point. For a few years they said anyone who wins one of those events gets an army of X points. I didn't win the first year I went, which was a much larger prize, but the second year I went i lost early in the 40k event because I was backstabbed by someone who went "Lawls, I am random, gonna just kill all." I went up stairs, feeling kind of down, where I ran into a player who was much older, a grey beard as you would, and started talking to him. He had lost in the Fantasy version of the event as he enjoyed it more, and said he'd let me use his model if I so wanted... I went down with his model and a rule sheet I knew nothing about, it was a War Priest of Sigmar, and I just handed it to the guy running that table, under all the black lights, as I placed my glowing model down.... I didn't know what I was doing, I just saw an ability on the sheet that hit undead hard, but only if I was in range, so as a newb the community was super inviting and I ran into packs while using my AOE ability. Soon it became clear I was very much ahead, I had a stack of chip tokens they used to denote points. I saw a player near me, someone with a melee beast. I told him I'd give him a forth of my prize if he protected me, I was scared, I was the target on that table. He'd go in with his tank, cluster the zombies, and I'd run in to drop my AOE. There was one of those "That guys" there, he was utterly obnoxious as a person, not just in the game but as a whole, and he killed me eventually,despite the best efforts of my body guard.
I went upstairs, not knowing if I'd win the event, but knowing I was close. I handed the model back to the person who let me borrow it, and said that I'd give them a fourth of my winnings just for letting me try it, if I did win, though I didn't think I would.. A the end of the day I gave away over five hundred points of Bretonnians to those players, since they player either that army or Empire and the models could be used for either. It also gave me my first fantasy army that ended up as Empire.
It was only a few months later that the store went from 90% GW product to basically any other product they could find in the genre.... Flames of War, Confrontation, Warmachine, etc. What had changed was GW started opening their own stores in the area, and trying to edge out FLGS stores, so they were forced to either die or change... Yea, it was a sad time to see a store that did so much for the game simply have to move away from it :/.
Edit: And yes I bought a Menoth Army... I won a plaque in a tournament x_X
Indeed. When they still hosted articles back then as well as interviews, design sketches and showcases, the hobby really felt more vibrant and alive. On top of that while the miniatures weren't exactly cheap, anything outside of forge world wasn't that unreasonable either. I mean 30 bucks for a metal carnifex or 12 bucks for a metal blisterpack character is kinda expensive, but not that harsh (the equivallent of both of those now would be a total of 105 bucks in Canadian).
Remember when Black Reach was only 60 bucks? Those were the good days.
Honestly, I don't remember Black Reach at all, I don't know if it was simply a product I didn't consider, or it was after my time, but yea no clue what it was.
I don't think the models are over priced, even now with how much waste there is in a kit, I mean really now a dual kit is nice, but if you pay 50$ for a Fire Warrior set and almost half of it can't be used, it's pretty wasteful. I'd rather they just make a Striker and Breacher sprue, but optimizing placement on the mold, and then sell a box with two of one sprue, as opposed to "hey, you can buy this box and toss half of it somewhere, but you have options, right?" I get it for retailers, now they can buy one kit and sell it to both the guy wanting Breachers and the one wanting Strikers, so there's safety there, but come on, I'm sure there's a better way to do that than simply charging more for a large chunk of stuff that you won't use.
Because it IS expensive and it devalues really fast.
A few years ago I traded a MtG-card that was 100 dollar.
I traded it for cards of that value because the community decided it was worth that much!
That's difference #1: The community decides most of the value.
Now a couple of years later I played the card many times and I've put it in a sleeve.
I can now resell it at 600 USD.
Despite me sleeving it ánd playing it, the price actually increased.
I could sell my collection and I'd gain more money than I spent on it.
Now back to GW.
I need to get a Blood Angel tactical squad for 43 dollar, that's nearly three MtG-decks.
And 10 marines isn't enough: I need more packs, I need paint, a book, templates, terrain and something to play on.
When I am finally done with the hobby and try to sell my 10 marines, I will find they are either unsellable or worth only half of what I paid for them.
Not that this is a bad thing, but it's different fro MtG.
Tinkrr wrote: Honestly, I don't remember Black Reach at all, I don't know if it was simply a product I didn't consider, or it was after my time, but yea no clue what it was.
I don't think the models are over priced, even now with how much waste there is in a kit, I mean really now a dual kit is nice, but if you pay 50$ for a Fire Warrior set and almost half of it can't be used, it's pretty wasteful. I'd rather they just make a Striker and Breacher sprue, but optimizing placement on the mold, and then sell a box with two of one sprue, as opposed to "hey, you can buy this box and toss half of it somewhere, but you have options, right?" I get it for retailers, now they can buy one kit and sell it to both the guy wanting Breachers and the one wanting Strikers, so there's safety there, but come on, I'm sure there's a better way to do that than simply charging more for a large chunk of stuff that you won't use.
Black Reach was the starter set before Dark Vengeance. It had 1 Generic Tactical Squad, 1 generic Dreadnought (melta dread only), 1 Generic Terminator Squad (no special weapons of any kind and only PFs and SB) and 1 Captain for the Space Marines. For Orks, it had 3 plastic Deffkoptas, 20 boyz (with 3 having Big Shootas), 5 Nobz and a Warboss.
All of that for basically the price of a terminator box.
I don't know if someone mentioned this, but I feel my metal models are a lot more valuable than my plastic / resin ones just because you can feel the weight in them.
I know metal is a pain to work with, but it just feels right that they have that weight, I actually bought all my oblits used just so I could have 9 of the metal ones.
TheWaspinator wrote: The thing is, if 40k is supposed to be a premium game and justify its price, then GW is doing a really bad job on the rules side of things. If nothing else, the FAQ issue is a major one. Companies like FFG and PP are way better at issuing FAQs and errata to keep the game balanced and it makes GW look really bad to neglect that.
I am not saying this as a challenge to you, but it seems to me that some people are starting to use this idea of premium to justify the high prices. I.e. not GW prices are high because it's a premium game, but it's a premium game because prices are high.
What is a premium game, anyway? A leather bound rulebook is a premium book, but what makes the standard rulebook a premium item?
If an item is premium, it generally means it was crafted with the utmost care and quality, while also having a price to justify the skill and materials that went in.
Vallejo Paints would be considered a premium item compared to dollar store paints since Vallejo has finer pigments, better consistency, and better pigment materials. All of that requires a bit more skill to make than the normal dollar store paints, especially the finer pigments.
GW Miniatures does indeed fit the "premium" bit, as the miniatures are pretty awesome and the customer service is impeccable (the plastic is indeed quite high quality compared to some of the other stuff I've worked with and their customer service never make you jump through hoops when you're missing stuff). However, the rules are where it's grossly lacking. This is probably why in recent years they declared themselves a Miniature Company, not a Game company (despite the name) because even they know that their game is sub-par for the money you pay (in that the basic necessities such as rules patching, playtesting or even proofreading isn't even present, which is the bare minimum).
A premium game would be something like magic, where they higher professional players to design and test the game. They also have things like The Future Future League (yes two futures) which play tests sets extensively in hopes of predicting the future meta of the game so that they can iron out any problems that might occur when the set is released. Basically they do everything that is possible to make sure the game works and is enjoyable. Hearthstone for example doesn't do this and while it's still a fun game it's very unbalanced, which results in decks that need to be nerfed each set almost, though Hearthstone is a rather new game compared to Magic which had similar issues early on until they revamped their R&D process completely.
Well, I've been quite into XWing lately, and I think a small-ish XWing ship is, objectively, more expensive than, say, a box of Kataphron Destroyers.
But then, the XWing ship is priced at 15-20€. I can justify buying one of those every week. 15€ won't get in the way of filling a tank, having a couple of beers, going to the movies or paying the swimming pool fees. However, keeping up with 40k was starting to feel disruptive.
In the last two years, GW has effectively removed the option to make small purchases. Like it or not, everything is priced around the 40-50€ mark. 50€ that more often than not require another 50€ to become a barely playable unit. GW prefers that you build your army in 2-3 big purchases of 200€ and more than in 30 small ones.
40k isn't more expensive than other games out there, but the way it's marketed forces you to spend unreasonable ammounts of money in one pop and that's why it ends up feeling heavier on the wallet, and why other games who trust the gamer-collector to develop an interest in their products and slowly build their collections are prospering right now while GW seems on a steady decline.
Actually, one thing that I really don't like about the current GW stuff, is that it comes with so much wasted stuff. I get that if you have a model where you can change one front armour plate and the arms on the rider (such as the chicken walkers for the Ad Mech) it makes sense to make it a dual kit, but then something like the Fire Warrior kit where the only thing keeping you from making twice the models as it includes is an extra set of torsos and legs because you get everything else, that's just excessive. I'd just rather have two smaller kits that are cheaper :/.
Tinkrr wrote: A premium game would be something like magic, where they higher professional players to design and test the game. They also have things like The Future Future League (yes two futures) which play tests sets extensively in hopes of predicting the future meta of the game so that they can iron out any problems that might occur when the set is released. Basically they do everything that is possible to make sure the game works and is enjoyable.
Nope, that's just a game. There's nothing premium about testing your product throughly to make sure it's fit for purpose and stands up to stress testing.
A premium product is, in the broadest terms, a product that eschews economies in production in favour of improvements in final quality, no matter how small or incremental. It all starts to get a bit ephemeral after that, because "quality" can be very personal in a product of this nature, and what one customer prizes as an improvement another will view as an unnecessary extravagance.
Take codexes as an example. Someone who prizes the object of the book itself will likely point to the current hard back, full color, properly bound format and declare it better quality (and likely worth the extra money.) A gamer will likely declare this unnecessary frippery that is making obtaining the rules more expensive and in actual fact the quality of the content of those rules has, for many, reduced.
One things for sure, a company can decide to make a premium product by investing more in production in order to justify a higher cost and differentiate itself from its competition. The market will then decide if the extra quality on offer is worth the difference in price.
What a company can't do is utilize exactly the same production methods and materials as the competition, do absolutely nothing differently to make it stand out, call their product "premium" and therefore charge more money. The market is smarter than that, and ultimately figure it out, which is at the core of the issues plaguing GW at the moment.
Tinkrr wrote: Here's my thoughts on why I think 40k feels so expensive, the simple answer being that the game isn't good enough to justify the price.
That right there sums it up to me.
Basically. In Infinity, you spend $8-12 for an infantry model, but they are all useful in the tight rules set provided by the developers. 40k models can easily become completely invalidated following a codex or edition change. There's no such thing as an 'investment' in 40k.
I actually think the books should be cheaper but last less. Having armies with no updates for over a year is weird :/.
I'd basically have three releases a year if I was in charge. The first release would be a codex (faq updates in it at the least) for every army, worth 25$ or so. Then I'd have a mid-ish year update to supplements in the same manner as codices, but again only 10$ or so each, and finally end of the year secondary supplements being updated in the same way. Cut the fluff and stuff from the codices and supplements, leaving just enough to make them worthwhile. Then release an art/fluff book with the codices that can be done in different styles like Imperium news casts, or whatever with each release to give all the flavour of the game. Things like the FAQs would be free online, but the new editions would have them included, along with any new stuff/
Basically create a serious tournament scene, one that especially appeals to casual players (as in FNM) and then make the rules less required, and more as something people simply are compelled to buy because they're good and convenient.
Personally I think paying for rules is ass. Rules should always be online and free so not only can they update them, but also make them accessible to potential new players.
This is where a premium item would be good, cuz if I like the lore behind an army I would totally pay for a premium "codex" filled with modelling tips, painting guides, lore and the rules.
I think charging for rules is fine. Publishers have to make money somehow. There are plenty of free rules online. If Osprey can compete with them, and get me to pay £12 for a printed colour book with pictures, I say fair play to Osprey.
Most companies' rules are much cheaper than GW and in many cases have downloadable free trial versions. Example of rules pricing for games that have gone through a number of editions:
Price of playing Tau in 40K since 1999, not including cost of models and dataslates = £252. (Four editions, and four codexes.)
Price of playing all the armies in Wargames Research Group's De Bellis Antiquitatis since 1990, not including cost of models = £25. (Three editions, containing all the army lists.)
Mantic and Infinity do free downloadable intro rules. AoS basically is the same for GW, so maybe they have seen the light, although given the rumours that AoS has failed to set the skies alight, it's unlikely GW will do the same to 40K in a hurry.
The fact is, GW's strategy is to price high to cover the costs of running their retail chain they need to recruit new customers. If you are a veteran, there isn't much reason to visit a GW shop. They don't stock much of the range outside the basics and new releases. Yet the retail chain soaks up about half their turn-over.
As a veteran, if you continue to buy GW kits, you are paying a premium for the privilege of enabling GW to ignore your wants and recruit newbies instead.
Infinity actually has complete free rules. They leave out story fluff in the free rulebook PDF but its otherwise complete and the official army builder gives you access to every figure's rules for free.
GW is lacking behind in a lot of areas tbh. There's a lot they can change without changing their price, and if they were willing to change prices then a lot more can change as well (they would break out of the niche hobby zone if they just halved their prices).
Kilkrazy wrote: AoS basically is the same for GW, so maybe they have seen the light, although given the rumours that AoS has failed to set the skies alight, it's unlikely GW will do the same to 40K in a hurry.
GW have attempted to fix only one part of the problem. There is still other problems, high prices where people don't think it's "worth" it, and no support of the products they put out. Also you need time. GW pissed off a lot of people. Time heals all wounds. People will come back, but nothing is an instant fix though. Given time AoS can be a success. Problem is, GW needs to address the other problems they have caused instead of blaming their customers.
To reply to the original question, it depends on what you get out of your model kits.
If you don't really like the game, but grudgingly play it because your buddies do and you can find a game, and you don't really care for the modelling aspects, of course the 40k will feel like an insanely expensive hobby. If you really look forward to your games and spend dozens of hours on each model, it will feel like a really cheap way to entertain yourself.
On a $5 piece of plastic that is a part of a 40k kit, I can spend 20 hours modelling it, and then use him in 50 games that are 5 hours each. There's literally nothing else in the world I could get that much mileage out of $5 with, except for maybe as a fraction of some good hiking boots
But I could glue together the same miniature in 5 minutes, spend and spend 5 hours arguing about rules, after spending 3 hours waiting for a game for the same $5 too, in which case... what a waste of money.
I mean, you could compare bridge or Cribbage or poker to Magic the Gathering, too. I could have as much fun playing a card game with a pack of cards I got for free from an airline (I do, at Christmas time every year) as I do with hundreds or thousands of dollars of collectible cards.
Oh, by the way, as someone who has bought an awful lot of Magic cards in the day... loved the game, loved trading, loved collecting, the whole 9 yards.... I never thought of Magic as anything other than crazy expensive
40K doesn't feel that expensive when I compare it to my other hobbies.
Video games? I have a PS3 that cost 400 and I have about 90 games for it - most of them I got for $20 but quite a few I bought at full price or in between. Just as a guess thats probably about $3000 (Canadian) right there.
Some of those games are replayable, but most of them I hold on to just as a collection and will probably not play again.
40K feels expensive because it is.
For comparison let us look at other TTG's which are also popular today:
40K - Buy in cost:
usually varies between £250 and £400 for a 2000 point army and supplies although some elitist armies can be purchased for around £200
Rules:
Flat and full of massive errors, inconsistencies and odd points. They offer a limited tactical depth and are often considered overly complex. Also allow for the dreaded turn 1 alpha strike and are so full of exceptions and contrary writings that no one can agree on many points.
Models:
Expensive and vary massively in quality. Some, like Elizabeth Von Carstien, are beautiful but others such as the new AoS stuff are terrible and others like the Cadians and the Chaos marine box sets are showing their age. What is more the pricing of these kits is considered very high, such as the basic Cadian Guardsman costing £2 a model and SM's costing £2.20 a model. For single miniatures this goes up even further with a single Marine character costing over £12.
Warmahordes - Buy in cost
Varies between £80 and £90 for a full tournament army and supplies. Some can be a little more or less but these are exceptions.
Rules:
Good and well designed with plenty of tactical depth. Almost no disputes arise from them.
Models:
Vary slightly, some are good whilst others are a little plain or clunky. The newer kits are improving though. Whilst some are a little pricey per mini the newer restic kits are better priced. They do suffer from being largely monopose though.
Bolt Action - Buy in cost
£70 for a full tournament level plus extra units army plus the factions army book and another £25 for the rulebook.
Rules:
Very well built and allow for a good and in depth game. Some minor issues such as the pricing of Infantry LMG teams and other such units do exist but overall they are good. The activation system also helps prevent alpha strikes and forces players to think carefully as they do not know who is going next.
Models:
Whilst some of the older ones do show their age the newer ones are superb and they are getting better and better. A single £24 box set buys you 25 to 30 plastic multipose figures and includes the options to make HQ units, weapon teams and Infantry Sections.
So yes, just by comparing it to those two games 40K is expensive and their are other games out there which are even cheaper to get started in.
GW need to dramatically change their pricings and writing team or risk losing to the vast number of newer games and companies that exist.
master of ordinance wrote: 40K feels expensive because it is.
For comparison let us look at other TTG's which are also popular today:
40K - Buy in cost:
usually varies between £250 and £400 for a 2000 point army and supplies although some elitist armies can be purchased for around £200
Rules:
Flat and full of massive errors, inconsistencies and odd points. They offer a limited tactical depth and are often considered overly complex. Also allow for the dreaded turn 1 alpha strike and are so full of exceptions and contrary writings that no one can agree on many points.
Models:
Expensive and vary massively in quality. Some, like Elizabeth Von Carstien, are beautiful but others such as the new AoS stuff are terrible and others like the Cadians and the Chaos marine box sets are showing their age. What is more the pricing of these kits is considered very high, such as the basic Cadian Guardsman costing £2 a model and SM's costing £2.20 a model. For single miniatures this goes up even further with a single Marine character costing over £12.
Warmahordes - Buy in cost
Varies between £80 and £90 for a full tournament army and supplies. Some can be a little more or less but these are exceptions.
Rules:
Good and well designed with plenty of tactical depth. Almost no disputes arise from them.
Models:
Vary slightly, some are good whilst others are a little plain or clunky. The newer kits are improving though. Whilst some are a little pricey per mini the newer restic kits are better priced. They do suffer from being largely monopose though.
Bolt Action - Buy in cost
£70 for a full tournament level plus extra units army plus the factions army book and another £25 for the rulebook.
Rules:
Very well built and allow for a good and in depth game. Some minor issues such as the pricing of Infantry LMG teams and other such units do exist but overall they are good. The activation system also helps prevent alpha strikes and forces players to think carefully as they do not know who is going next.
Models:
Whilst some of the older ones do show their age the newer ones are superb and they are getting better and better. A single £24 box set buys you 25 to 30 plastic multipose figures and includes the options to make HQ units, weapon teams and Infantry Sections.
So yes, just by comparing it to those two games 40K is expensive and their are other games out there which are even cheaper to get started in.
GW need to dramatically change their pricings and writing team or risk losing to the vast number of newer games and companies that exist.
I think your writeup is very very biased against 40K.
40K has the best customization, converting, painting and modeling community.
There are many many blogs of people collecting, converting and painting up 40k armies - and all of these are theme/fluff based and don't care so much if the rules for them are good or not or if the units themselves are good or not.
40k has the best fluff also - somewhere between 100 and 200 novels, codexes etc that have created an incredibly rich background.
People get so obsessed with the fluff, they will collect and paint an army just to recreate some very remote unit or regiment in one of those stories.
I would say it is quite a different beast than Warmahordes/Bolt Action etc. and that it fulfills something quite different that people are trying to get out of the hobby.
40k is for people who want to immerse themselves into another universe.
I would say if you are more interested in tight rules, balanced play, cut throat/tactical gameplay then 40k might not be for you.
The discussion is about how expensive 40k is. Comparing it to other similar games is only natural.
Nothing you detailed really offsets the expense (maybe conversions?) although it does explain why people are willing to pay it.
That doesn't change the fact that 40k's game buy in is massive compared to other similar games. The rules alone could get me two teams in guildball, maybe more.m though guildball is a skirmish game.
I'm very interest in the necromunda reboot to see how that lowers the buy in for 40k.
I think the OP made a good point. I do feel the game is expensive because it literally is expensive - but compounding this is the amount of effort and time to build (I like this part), paint (not such fun) and organise to play a game. Even the set up time can be a bit painful followed by a big effort to keep on top of rules while playing. It's all so.. exhausting! I do feel there is a price to effort ratio here. I still love the 40K lore but, yea, I can't really articulate the previous stuff I wrote in any other way.
In comparison, the price of my saga models, the ease of painting them all and the speed to getting a game going combine to make it feel like a game with a good ratio for price / effort
EDIT: I've got it! That feeling when you eat an epic burger or kebab and the sheer amount of meat makes you feel slow and sluggish and start questioning yourself - 40K is currently like having meatsweats. There is an element of pride associated with completing a game but you will need to rest afterwards - that's the best I can do
That's actually something I heard from some friends who love similar hobbies but don't want to get into 40k. The issue they have is that a standard game is easily 2.5 hours, as opposed to 1.5 hours, making it less appealing. This makes sense because frankly the time investment can make the game feel worse when you lose on a bad roll or something, since all of a sudden over two hours could just be gone from one bad set of rolls. Not to mention the effort of setting up a game, as in finding an opponent and the like, making that loss all the worse yet again because you get to play it so rarely. Like I said, I can go to an LGS every day of the week and play Magic in a tournament setting, and each day will at least be three rounds or more, with each round being 2-3 games taking a total of 3-4 hours. So even if I lose one game to utterly horrible luck, or every game in the tournament, it'll still at worst be losing a game of 40k to bad luck. That's a pretty crushing feeling.
Maybe they just need to get the game to a point where 1850pts can be played in 1.5 hours, I think it's possible and would require a lot more rapid decision making which could really test the skill and knowledge of a player.
Checkout the screenshots there - this is the faster 40K game.
Each model moves as if its its own unit.
While I've heard of Kill Team, the issue is that it feels like a variant of 40k, rather than a game of 40k.
How can I put it best, Kill Team feels more like a Mini Masters format of magic, or a Tavern Brawl in Hearthstone, or an ARAM in League. I'm sure it can be a fun format as an additional thing to do, but it's not exactly the reason you get into any of these games and it's generally significantly divorced from the way the game normally plays.
Again, not to say it can't be good, just that you aren't exactly getting into 40k just for it.
I like Necromunda or GorkaMorka (if I want something bigger).
The leveling up and owning land and such makes it feel like a great story is being created.
I prefer Combat Patrol as it essentially just uses a different FoC and some unit restrictions (not unlike some of the detachments we have now. Heyoooo) and because points is usually restricted to 400-500 points (depending on the version) you don't have all that many units to take care of.
Kilkrazy wrote: Even more fun if you buy two sets to share between two pals.
However the costs accelerate quite fast once you look at the main rulebook, codexes and extra models.
I get what you're saying, but there's no reason to buy the main rulebook if you buy DV. It's actually an annoying hindrance for gaming. All it does is weigh a ton and have big print. Had DV existed before the 7e hardcover, I would not have purchased the 7e hardcover set.
Now, if only we could buy all the codex books as softcover minis!
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Wulfmar wrote: Aye I play Killteam - I count it as a separate game to 40K though
(and in many respects, it's better - I like the squad-based XCOM style of it)
OT, but if only someone would write an XCOM style computer game based on Kill Team!!!
rayphoton wrote: Am I the only one waiting for Jah to make an appearance here to tell us he thinks the miniatures are amazing and are totally worth the price and that he thinks there the best deal cause there the best miniatures etc etc.
His posts always cheer me up cause its rare to see someone so optimistic about something alot of us are frothing angry about.
My 2 cents is that you don't feel bad about the money that you spend on other things is because the company you buy from at least seems to care that you are buying form them .
Magic has power creep but magic also hosts great tournaments and give out cool prizes and is active on the forums and ..you know...responds?
Blizzard is known for treating its customers like there super special and they really value their business.
These companies may not really care...but they sure pretend well
GW...doesn't seem to care..at all...about you.. Just your money. So when you buy something....you feel that you giving money to a souless jackass that charges too much
you rang???
i do think that SOME of the minis are amazing, and are totally worth the price that they cost ME...
i don't presume to speak for anyone else, though, or expect anyone to share my opinion...
do i think GW's 40K minis are the best miniatures???
for 40K I do, but i also think that PP's minis are the best WarmaHordes minis, and CB's minis are the best Infinity minis, and collect them all...
i like each mini for what they are meant to represent...
what i don't like is sub-par material, and so won't buy anything in Finecast or PP's sprueless "plastic"...
proper resin like FW's Primarchs, or PP's Exrtreme Khador Jacks is much better...
what i have consistently said, is that i think the current batch of 40K plastic sprues are very high quality casts and designs, easy to customize, and my favorite minis to paint...
every generation of plastic kit just gets better and better, in my opinion, so i am happy to continue collecting them...
as for GW not caring about me (or anyone else), well, i would not expect a corporate entity to care about me...
i would only ask myself if they are making a product that i want badly enough to fork over my money...
however, when i buy a Space Marine Captain, a Dark Eldar Haemonculus, or a Tau Commander, i do feel like i am supporting the work of my homies who sculpted them, and that is good enough for me...
i am happy to see my friends working, and getting the chance to create cool minis, no matter what company they work for...
i do try to be optimistic in general...
life is too short for negativity...
i like that old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."...
there are enough people here that are more than happy to say any of the negative things that i may have been thinking
at the end of the day, i would never debate the fact that GW minis are expensive...
i would only state that i get my money's worth...
I prefer to err on the side of pessimism, as optimisim invites Tzeentch and he is a horrible roommate and a squatter. Nurgle, on the other hand, bakes you cookies. Puke-laidened cookies but cookies.
Globally wages and inflation have been flat. GW was having double digit price increases when we only had single digit cost of living increases.
They are propping up their increasingly unsustainable business model and there are a lot of fan boy chumps who are going to follow them all the way into the abyss.
Actually if what the GW promoters and Sales rep's have said are true, not even the whales of this hobby is enough now. GW has priced themselves so high that the few remaining Whales of the fanbase no longer generate enough income for them. AoS was suppose to mitigate that by bringing in newbloods but...yeah. That didn't quite work out as they had hoped. Calth and the Start Collecting sets were apparently a nuclear option.
rayphoton wrote: Am I the only one waiting for Jah to make an appearance here to tell us he thinks the miniatures are amazing and are totally worth the price and that he thinks there the best deal cause there the best miniatures etc etc.
His posts always cheer me up cause its rare to see someone so optimistic about something alot of us are frothing angry about.
M
you rang???
i do think that SOME of the minis are amazing, and are totally worth the price that they cost ME...
i don't presume to speak for anyone else, though, or expect anyone to share my opinion...
do i think GW's 40K minis are the best miniatures???
for 40K I do, but i also think that PP's minis are the best WarmaHordes minis, and CB's minis are the best Infinity minis, and collect them all...
i like each mini for what they are meant to represent...
what i don't like is sub-par material, and so won't buy anything in Finecast or PP's sprueless "plastic"...
proper resin like FW's Primarchs, or PP's Exrtreme Khador Jacks is much better...
what i have consistently said, is that i think the current batch of 40K plastic sprues are very high quality casts and designs, easy to customize, and my favorite minis to paint...
every generation of plastic kit just gets better and better, in my opinion, so i am happy to continue collecting them...
as for GW not caring about me (or anyone else), well, i would not expect a corporate entity to care about me...
i would only ask myself if they are making a product that i want badly enough to fork over my money...
however, when i buy a Space Marine Captain, a Dark Eldar Haemonculus, or a Tau Commander, i do feel like i am supporting the work of my homies who sculpted them, and that is good enough for me...
i am happy to see my friends working, and getting the chance to create cool minis, no matter what company they work for...
i do try to be optimistic in general...
life is too short for negativity...
i like that old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."...
there are enough people here that are more than happy to say any of the negative things that i may have been thinking
at the end of the day, i would never debate the fact that GW minis are expensive...
i would only state that i get my money's worth...
cheers
jah
Well Said Jah. You are a port in the storm and I'm always glad to see you pop in. I don't necessarily agree, .but I'm always appreciative of your take.
Another point to add to the price comparison: I can buy a core set and a few expansions and have a 100 point X-Wing list for ~$60 from online retailers. You can spend a lot more than that on X-Wing, of course, but that's for bigger games and/or to gain more options. That's much cheaper than Dark Vengeance and Dark Vengeance isn't anywhere near enough to play games at typical point values. A better-supported rules set for low model counts would help reduce startup costs a LOT, but that would be against the trend towards focusing on larger and larger models. As it stands, the price barrier to even start playing 40K is pretty damn high.
With any luck, the revival of specialist games might produce a solution for this. I basically want a better-supported more standalone version of Kill Team or a version of Necromunda with more of the 40K factions. That's the kind of game that can have a reasonable startup cost.
TheWaspinator wrote: Another point to add to the price comparison: I can buy a core set and a few expansions and have a 100 point X-Wing list for ~$60 from online retailers. You can spend a lot more than that on X-Wing, of course, but that's for bigger games and/or to gain more options. That's much cheaper than Dark Vengeance and Dark Vengeance isn't anywhere near enough to play games at typical point values. A better-supported rules set for low model counts would help reduce startup costs a LOT, but that would be against the trend towards focusing on larger and larger models. As it stands, the price barrier to even start playing 40K is pretty damn high.
With any luck, the revival of specialist games might produce a solution for this. I basically want a better-supported more standalone version of Kill Team or a version of Necromunda with more of the 40K factions. That's the kind of game that can have a reasonable startup cost.
It's actually called Kill Team, and it's only a $12 expansion
You can build a kill team force from any of the Start Collecting boxes (you won't even use all the models), at $85 each. The game is actually quite fun to play, and there are KT leagues in many cities/clubs, and many big-game 40k fans occasionally play KT as well. Kill Team reduces you to 250 points, there's no magic, and nothing with extraordinary HP, which excludes everything big. All the models move independently (no coherency) and it's played on a small table.
However...
MOST people who play and collect 40k don't aspire to just play Kill Team. Which is really the crux of it. It's not that 40k forces you to play big games; it's that most people playing 40k want to play big games.
You're leaving out that that $12 book relies on you having the main rulebook and codices. That's what I said "more standalone". Those $85 boxes are neat, but you still need to either buy the big rulebook or Dark Vengeance plus the relevant codices. That's the problem with this implementation of Kill Team: it's way too dependent on you buying the stuff meant for the more expensive big game. It's not priced at a cheaper standalone entry point.
TheWaspinator wrote: You're leaving out that that $12 book relies on you having the main rulebook and codices. That's what I said "more standalone". Those $85 boxes are neat, but you still need to either buy the big rulebook or Dark Vengeance plus the relevant codices. That's the problem with this implementation of Kill Team: it's way too dependent on you buying the stuff meant for the more expensive big game. It's not priced at a cheaper standalone entry point.
Or just buy the softcover mini BRB by itself. It's what I recommend everybody do anyways, if they're not getting DV, as it's far more useful than the hardcover BRB. You can get it around $20-$30, or free if you ask nicely at some gaming clubs.
You don't kneed the codices. The rules for the models come in the start collecting box, and many of the SRs from the codex aren't relevant to KT anyhow.
Well, in WMH I can buy a blister each weak for about 10 to 20 Euro and this doesnt hurt my wallet .But in 40k, the prices start at 23 Euro for a (finecast) HQ model. Units are a different story.
master of ordinance wrote: 40K feels expensive because it is.
For comparison let us look at other TTG's which are also popular today:
40K - Buy in cost:
usually varies between £250 and £400 for a 2000 point army and supplies although some elitist armies can be purchased for around £200
Rules:
Flat and full of massive errors, inconsistencies and odd points. They offer a limited tactical depth and are often considered overly complex. Also allow for the dreaded turn 1 alpha strike and are so full of exceptions and contrary writings that no one can agree on many points.
Models:
Expensive and vary massively in quality. Some, like Elizabeth Von Carstien, are beautiful but others such as the new AoS stuff are terrible and others like the Cadians and the Chaos marine box sets are showing their age. What is more the pricing of these kits is considered very high, such as the basic Cadian Guardsman costing £2 a model and SM's costing £2.20 a model. For single miniatures this goes up even further with a single Marine character costing over £12.
Warmahordes - Buy in cost
Varies between £80 and £90 for a full tournament army and supplies. Some can be a little more or less but these are exceptions.
Rules:
Good and well designed with plenty of tactical depth. Almost no disputes arise from them.
Models:
Vary slightly, some are good whilst others are a little plain or clunky. The newer kits are improving though. Whilst some are a little pricey per mini the newer restic kits are better priced. They do suffer from being largely monopose though.
Bolt Action - Buy in cost
£70 for a full tournament level plus extra units army plus the factions army book and another £25 for the rulebook.
Rules:
Very well built and allow for a good and in depth game. Some minor issues such as the pricing of Infantry LMG teams and other such units do exist but overall they are good. The activation system also helps prevent alpha strikes and forces players to think carefully as they do not know who is going next.
Models:
Whilst some of the older ones do show their age the newer ones are superb and they are getting better and better. A single £24 box set buys you 25 to 30 plastic multipose figures and includes the options to make HQ units, weapon teams and Infantry Sections.
So yes, just by comparing it to those two games 40K is expensive and their are other games out there which are even cheaper to get started in.
GW need to dramatically change their pricings and writing team or risk losing to the vast number of newer games and companies that exist.
I think your writeup is very very biased against 40K.
40K has the best customization, converting, painting and modeling community.
There are many many blogs of people collecting, converting and painting up 40k armies - and all of these are theme/fluff based and don't care so much if the rules for them are good or not or if the units themselves are good or not.
40k has the best fluff also - somewhere between 100 and 200 novels, codexes etc that have created an incredibly rich background.
People get so obsessed with the fluff, they will collect and paint an army just to recreate some very remote unit or regiment in one of those stories.
I would say it is quite a different beast than Warmahordes/Bolt Action etc. and that it fulfills something quite different that people are trying to get out of the hobby.
40k is for people who want to immerse themselves into another universe.
I would say if you are more interested in tight rules, balanced play, cut throat/tactical gameplay then 40k might not be for you.
Now you see my write up does seem biased UNTIL:
1) You realise that Warlord Games plastics are ripe for conversion, as are the Perry Brothers plastics and many other companies
2) The converting, painting and modelling community is actually populated by historical modellers. Case examples being the author of 'Panzer Modeling Master Class' or the many different modellers whom submit their conversions and work to Warlord Games. Conversions such as the Yugoslav PAK40 Stuart or the Erzatz Stug or the SDFFZ 251/21 conversion and many more are rife there.
3) I was comparing the price and the quality/quantity for price and this is an area in which GW constantly fails to provide.
4) there are just as many, if not more, blogs about people collecting non GW models.
Fluffwise, when it comes down to it GW just scrapped half of their established fluff and the 40K fluff is constantly changing with case points being the vast disparity of weapons and equipment and how they work. Some novels have Leman Russ tanks firing small atmomic warheads whilst others have them hurling AP and HE warheads. In one a Tau fire warrior kills a Space Marine where as others portray masses of explosives and huge volleys of HW fire being needed and others still have Space Marines forces being vulnerable only to another Space Marine.
That said I can understand why people like it and I do enjoy the Gaunts Ghosts novels myself.
However as I stated above I was not comparing established background, etc, but instead I was comparing price and quality, an area in which 40K and GW as a whole fail.
As someone who enjoys playing far more than the hobby side of the game part of what makes the game feel expensive to me is how much I value my time.
Unlike in something like magic, 40k requires effort to make changes to an army.
If I value my time, then needing to constantly rebuild and paint an army is a big drain on resources.
now this is not a problem if you don't care about competing but if you do it often requires a lot of time. Which equates for me to a lot of value.
So I'm with you on this Breng especially trying to build a competitive army from point zero currently, but don't you eventually develop a big enough back stock to kind of interchange things as needed? Sort of like in Magic where eventually your collection grows big enough to play multiple formats and decks, with only a few needed updates each set.
1.) Do you build out a list or build out a faction? If you only build say an 1850 list for competitive purposes, and don't purchase additional in faction models you can be forced to start from scratch depending on changes. IF you build out a faction you may have enough choices to not need to buy and paint new things at the time of change (though to be fair you already bought and painted more in the first place).
2.) If you build out a faction does it stay competitive? If I started in 5e with IG and built out that faction, I 'm now stuck needing to buy an new faction to compete.
3.) Do you have large collections in multiple factions? This can help avoid #2, but again now you spend significantly more time and money already.
Essentially what it comes down to for me, if you are a collector of everything in the game, you become mostly immune to changes, if not and you are a player who builds an army, then it becomes exceedingly frustrating. Now the pendulm may swing back around to what you have being good...but it also might not.
The reason I stick to building fluff armies now is because I realized if I wanna be competitive in each edition, I basically have to re-buy my entire army every time there's a codex release. There's little building on what i had before as a combination of nerfings and buffs means that a lot of my old items are invalidated (like, my tyranids initially had to have it's fexes replaced with Tervigons and trygons in 5th ed, then these had to be replaced again with Flyrants and, ironically, the very fexes I had to give up before, but now they need an arm transplant. I just gave up at this point).
In short, I feel like 40k only feels expensive because of how little use it really has, it's not like other games where you can just always have someone to play with, but rather it's a game that puts a massive burden on you to just get a game going, which makes it seem significantly more expensive than it really is.
Pending on where you live, this changes. All I have to do to get a game going is post on facebook. Generally Ill have a game that day or the next day. There is no burden whatsoever to get a game in.
See, while that could explain some of it, I have other more expensive hobbies, that have the same stigma but usually from others in the hobby that don't play that specific format, while those that do don't feel it's expensive despite it being such. This does not seem to be the same for 40k :/
I think your writeup is very very biased against 40K.
And with respect, what you write here, whilst not necessarily uninformed of other games , well it seems to have a very narrow focus that seeks to ignore them- you ascribe things solely to 40k when they exist in all games.
40K has the best customization, converting, painting and modeling community.
It has the largest customisation, converting, painting and modelling community. By dint of being the more played game and therefore a larger player base.To be fair, I’ve seen some stunningly painted and converted 40k armies, but then again, I have seen far too many ‘grey legions’ as well. The opposite is true too – I have seen some staggeringly beautiful WMH and infinity armies – whether converted or painted (google the Khador HMS griffon, stormhammer: the assault on Sul, the legion of mechablight for some examples). PP run conversion and painting contests in their magazine, and in the last few years, you are starting to see some truly stunning armies hitting the table top.
Seems to me that creative types will be creative, regardless of the game.
There are many many blogs of people collecting, converting and painting up 40k armies - and all of these are theme/fluff based and don't care so much if the rules for them are good or not or if the units themselves are good or not.
This is an true in other communities as well – plenty folks play, collect and paint factions because they like the theme/lore in WMH. Heck, there are folks that run specific theme lists in WMH, build lore-based armies and also don’t care as to the power level.
Seems like a gamer thing to me, rather than a ‘gamers of a specific game’ thing.
40k has the best fluff also - somewhere between 100 and 200 novels, codexes etc that have created an incredibly rich background.
People get so obsessed with the fluff, they will collect and paint an army just to recreate some very remote unit or regiment in one of those stories.
No, I have to disagree with you here.
40k has the most published lore. Quantity does not equal quality, especially when so much of 40k’s lore boils down to fairly juvenile ‘bolter porn’, last stands, ‘glory to the…’ and ‘death to the…’. Very little of it is new, and often just slightly expanded versions of the stories released twenty years ag in second Ed. The lore itself gets given far more credit than it deserves as well, if you ask me-and I say that as a fan of quite a bit of it-heck the three imperial armour ‘siege of vraks’ books can be boiled down to ‘the guard won because they threw more bodies into the flight than the defenders had bullets’. It's a lot of broad strokes and often little depth.
And for what it’s worth, you are doing a disservice to the lore of other games – privateer press for example have been writing up the lore for their iron kingdoms for about 15years now, and its become a very deep, rich, gritty and characterful world with thousands of years of history to it, along with a great cast of heroes and villains. I was genuinely surprised at how brilliant it was when I first dived into it – I can't ups almost smell the coal fires when I got into it. you wouldn’t be making a mistake by jumping in.
People get so obsessed with the fluff, they will collect and paint an army just to recreate some very remote unit or regiment in one of those stories.
People do the same in warmachine – google the khador fifth border legion as the most obvious example. Generally though, since it's a character driven game, folks tend to be cheerleaders for their favourite characters - I know I jump for joy when the butcher or strakhov make an appearance. And yes, I will build armies just for those characters, and I'm not the,only one.
I would say it is quite a different beast than Warmahordes/Bolt Action etc. and that it fulfills something quite different that people are trying to get out of the hobby.
It’s a different beast for sure, and is far grander in scale than the other games you mention. There will always be something engrossing about 40k’s IP.
40k is for people who want to immerse themselves into another universe.
As is warmachine and every other wargame out there, whether historical, fantasy or sci-fi. 40k is not anything unique in this. Plenty people are just as enthralled imagining the eras when Hannibal or Caesar strode this earth like a colossus as others are imagining marneus calgar or eldrad ulthran fighting in the forty first millennium, or the butcher of khador leading the charge that took the fortress of ravenguard.
I think it's important to focus on the actual question being asked. It's not "Is the game expensive?" "It's " Why does this game feel so expensive?"
It's a very strong point as I find myself in a similar space as the OP. I happily drop far more money on LCGs, board games, WMH etc.
For me it comes down to value for my money. The price of the kits and rules for 40k just don't reflect money well spent anymore. The rules are expensive and poorly written (comparing the YMDC forums for 40k and WMHs is staggering. 40k threads go in circles for many pages until people tire of the argument or a mod locks them. Not one WMH thread reaches a second page!)
While definitely subjective I have not liked the direction the plastic kits have been taking and the prices (especially when weighed against how many are needed) just don't feel like a sound purchase anymore.
I still do hand GW money though. But it is exclusively for FW products as I still value their approach to the 30k rules and their resin kits are both nicer aesthetically (IMO) and barely more expensive than GW expects for their plastics.
It's all relative. It all really depends on your hobbies. There are single cards in MTG that cost more than an entire 40K army (and it isn't that rare to see them in play especially at Legacy tournaments). I've also seen several people who just love board games. I knew a guy who, before he had a child, would buy usually at least one new board game per week... sometimes those board games would be $25. Sometimes, they would be $100. I knew a guy who invested in probably at least several hundred dollars (if not over a thousand) in Star Trek Attack Wing (ships, bases, prize support ships from eBay, etc.). There are several other games that cost a good bit... for example, a high end set of three darts costs around $250+ if I remember correctly. The cost of a video game console and a handful of games will run you $500 to $600 easily.
Relatively speaking, for what you get out of it (hours upon hours upon hours of entertainment if you're a hobbyist and/or a player), 40K really isn't that expensive. Again, it's all relative.
I think your writeup is very very biased against 40K.
And with respect, what you write here, whilst not necessarily uninformed of other games , well it seems to have a very narrow focus that seeks to ignore them- you ascribe things solely to 40k when they exist in all games.
40K has the best customization, converting, painting and modeling community.
It has the largest customisation, converting, painting and modelling community. By dint of being the more played game and therefore a larger player base.To be fair, I’ve seen some stunningly painted and converted 40k armies, but then again, I have seen far too many ‘grey legions’ as well. The opposite is true too – I have seen some staggeringly beautiful WMH and infinity armies – whether converted or painted (google the Khador HMS griffon, stormhammer: the assault on Sul, the legion of mechablight for some examples). PP run conversion and painting contests in their magazine, and in the last few years, you are starting to see some truly stunning armies hitting the table top.
Seems to me that creative types will be creative, regardless of the game.
There are many many blogs of people collecting, converting and painting up 40k armies - and all of these are theme/fluff based and don't care so much if the rules for them are good or not or if the units themselves are good or not.
This is an true in other communities as well – plenty folks play, collect and paint factions because they like the theme/lore in WMH. Heck, there are folks that run specific theme lists in WMH, build lore-based armies and also don’t care as to the power level.
Seems like a gamer thing to me, rather than a ‘gamers of a specific game’ thing.
40k has the best fluff also - somewhere between 100 and 200 novels, codexes etc that have created an incredibly rich background.
People get so obsessed with the fluff, they will collect and paint an army just to recreate some very remote unit or regiment in one of those stories.
No, I have to disagree with you here.
40k has the most published lore. Quantity does not equal quality, especially when so much of 40k’s lore boils down to fairly juvenile ‘bolter porn’, last stands, ‘glory to the…’ and ‘death to the…’. Very little of it is new, and often just slightly expanded versions of the stories released twenty years ag in second Ed. The lore itself gets given far more credit than it deserves as well, if you ask me-and I say that as a fan of quite a bit of it-heck the three imperial armour ‘siege of vraks’ books can be boiled down to ‘the guard won because they threw more bodies into the flight than the defenders had bullets’. It's a lot of broad strokes and often little depth.
And for what it’s worth, you are doing a disservice to the lore of other games – privateer press for example have been writing up the lore for their iron kingdoms for about 15years now, and its become a very deep, rich, gritty and characterful world with thousands of years of history to it, along with a great cast of heroes and villains. I was genuinely surprised at how brilliant it was when I first dived into it – I can't ups almost smell the coal fires when I got into it. you wouldn’t be making a mistake by jumping in.
People get so obsessed with the fluff, they will collect and paint an army just to recreate some very remote unit or regiment in one of those stories.
People do the same in warmachine – google the khador fifth border legion as the most obvious example. Generally though, since it's a character driven game, folks tend to be cheerleaders for their favourite characters - I know I jump for joy when the butcher or strakhov make an appearance. And yes, I will build armies just for those characters, and I'm not the,only one.
I would say it is quite a different beast than Warmahordes/Bolt Action etc. and that it fulfills something quite different that people are trying to get out of the hobby.
It’s a different beast for sure, and is far grander in scale than the other games you mention. There will always be something engrossing about 40k’s IP.
40k is for people who want to immerse themselves into another universe.
As is warmachine and every other wargame out there, whether historical, fantasy or sci-fi. 40k is not anything unique in this. Plenty people are just as enthralled imagining the eras when Hannibal or Caesar strode this earth like a colossus as others are imagining marneus calgar or eldrad ulthran fighting in the forty first millennium, or the butcher of khador leading the charge that took the fortress of ravenguard.
At my local game scene people playing warmachine tend to put a lot less effort or none at all into their armies and always seems to approach the game as a game of chess with the sole purpose of outmaneuvering their opponent (nothing wrong with that just a different style than what I see of 40k) - The 40kers tend to spend a lot more time talking about painting techniques etc and seem to approach their games from a more fluffy/narrative perspective. I think mostly because 40k has a lot more random elements to it.
Probably not the way it is everywhere just saying how I see it here.
At my local game scene people playing warmachine tend to put a lot less effort or none at all into their armies and always seems to approach the game as a game of chess with the sole purpose of outmaneuvering their opponent (nothing wrong with that just a different style than what I see of 40k) - The 40kers tend to spend a lot more time talking about painting techniques etc and seem to approach their games from a more fluffy/narrative perspective. I think mostly because 40k has a lot more random elements to it.
Probably not the way it is everywhere just saying how I see it here.
Which is fair enough - every scene is different. I think sometimes people (not talking about you now ) make the mistake of making sweeping generalisations of 'the hobby' based entirely on what their local scene is like, and I don't necessarily think this is a fair or accurate way of viewing things in the 'bigger picture'.
I know warmachine players who put no effort into their aemies - then again, there is the other end of the scale. I will not play anything unpainted. I frequently convert - my female Fenris, various doom reaver, caster and war dog conversions always take pride of place. Some of my peers have some stunningly beautiful armies done up. Further more I see enough other examples on the interwebs to know I am not unique in this. I know enough 40k players who are soley interested in the power aspect of their game and pushing that as far as it can go, fluff be damned. Then again, I know plenty who like the lore as well. But I see exactly the same thing in other games too.
FYI, I was in my local gw the other day and struck up a conversation with one of the staffers - I was there for some brushes (my wash brush is old and down to about its last three bristles - needed a new one!) and a paint pot (abandon black) and we got talking about battle at calth and that I was interested in picking it up (I am ) - this evolved into a great chat with a big focus on the painting aspect - basically what brushes were good for what and how to get the sons of Horus 'green' just right along with their heresy gaming group. Quite enjoyed the chat actually. I was surprised in a way because if not got this chat from a gw in a long time (normally it's along the lines of 'buy this!') but it was nice to see the painting and modelling aspect pushed to the top like that
It mainly feels expensive to me because I collect a wide variety of games, and have seen first hand that GW is not always the best quality for the money.
Warlord's new Bolt Action kits, especially their USMC and Japs, blow anything Imperial guard related out of the water, with far more bits, better poses, the ability to build many of the core units you need for an army, and far more dynamic poses. With online discounts, you can often get 30 plastic bolt action minis for the cost of a 10 man cadian box. Not to mention 2 boxes of bolt action infantry will get you 90% of an army made, literally all you'll need is another couple blister packs or a tank. Now, if GW acknowledged that the cadian box were crap models and sold 20 for ~$30, that wouldn't be so bad, but they consistently jack up the price for a model that wasn't improved in any way and which I guarantee you has already paid for its mold.
If we jump onto Dreamforge's Valkir (their "space marine" equivalent heavy infantry) you can get double the models for the price of a 10 man space marine box. Quality is roughly similar, options are a bit less for the valkir depending on the box you get, but still GW is lacking behind in quality you get for your dollar. Not to mention the vast differences between the knight and the dreamforge leviathans and yet the leviathans are still cheaper while being fully posable and being purpose built for weapon swaps.
Simply put, GW isn't the best of the best in model quality any more, their quality is just all over the place. For every Skitarii trooper kit, you have a Catachan one. For every one of those really good looking character models like the Dominus techpriest that hits a good balance between detailed but ultimately clean design, you have models like the wulfen 13th company or that skullgrinder super heavy thing chaos got that looked like it fell into a tub of glue and bits and is far too busy.
GW is charging premium prices for what is most of the time a not particularly premium product, and gamers are starting to notice this. This of course completely ignoring the codexes, which feel like a massive ripoff at that price. I read scans of them online to see if they've gotten any better occasionally and I even feel ripped off then. I can't imagine what it would feel like to pay $50 for one and then find that out after it was too late to take it back.
If GW's quality was as good as they claim it is, people would have no problems paying it. FW, Victoria lamb, Kromlech, etc. Prove that time and again people will gladly pay for premium product.
Buying GW feels like buying a mustang only to find out it has a ford focus engine in it.
It's pricey, but for every $40 kit I buy, that's hours and hours of fun painting and assembling them (as I enjoy that part of the hobby immensely) and then literally countless hours playing with the models. For me, it's worth it, since I enjoy the game, aesthetic, and universe. I wish it was cheaper, but I can afford the habit.
If it feels to expensive for you, then it probably is to expensive for you. People are willing to spend money on a hobby/things they like doing. If you think it is expensive maybe it is time to look for another hobby? If you are always chasing the "new hotness" it might also feel expensive. If you just slowly collect and play a consistent army the expensive feel is reduced quite a bit. I collect and play orks. I think I have bought a grand total of 4 new kits at retail price. Everything else in my collection I have bought from others at a significant discount.
Loborocket wrote: If it feels to expensive for you, then it probably is to expensive for you. People are willing to spend money on a hobby/things they like doing. If you think it is expensive maybe it is time to look for another hobby? If you are always chasing the "new hotness" it might also feel expensive. If you just slowly collect and play a consistent army the expensive feel is reduced quite a bit. I collect and play orks. I think I have bought a grand total of 4 new kits at retail price. Everything else in my collection I have bought from others at a significant discount.
No, maybe it's time to look for a new game.
GW =/= the hobby.
GW being expensive =/= wargaming is expensive.
Loborocket wrote: If you think it is expensive maybe it is time to look for another hobby?
Umm.... Because with the exception of GW the hobby - that is to say the hobby of collecting, building/converting and panting miniatures and the hobby of playing wargames with said miniatures - is not actually that expensive? None GW companies make far superior kits at a fraction of the price and many also make balanced high quality rules for games using the miniatures which they produce which are affordable and the games themselves have a low startup cost.
Compare this to GW whom charge vast sums of money for their average to low quality kits and sell unbalanced and poorly written rules for vast sums as well. Hell, for the price of a single Leman Russ kit I can get a 1/35th scale Churchill MKIII with interior detailing, actual springs for the suspension and a turned metal gun barrel. And several different options, including Russian modifications and sand filters.
Compare and then comment.
Ok. My mistake. Maybe it is time for you to move on to another GAME if 40k is too expensive. Please, move on to another game. One you find exceptional in all facets, and spend all of your time on it rather than time spent wishing and hoping 40k meets all of your expectations. 40k is not for everyone. Some feel it it too expensive, some feel the rules are terrible, or both. If you are one of those 40k is NOT for you. Find you real passion and go persue that.
Tinkrr wrote: I don't mean why is this game so expensive, I mean why does it feel so expensive. One thing I looked at was how much my investment into 40k would cost as a whole, and how much my investment into my other hobbies would cost, one being Magic: the Gathering, and honestly, I've spent more on Magic than I would ever on 40k, and I don't feel any issue with it, but I feel rather stingy when it comes to 40k. More so, I've spent a ton on free games like League and Hearthstone without feeling bad about it, though every small purchase in 40k leaves me feeling drained. The obvious answer is that all those purchases are small purchases, so they don't feel as bad as a 50$ kit from 40k, though I've bought individual cards worth over 400$. Now you can say they will retain value, and even grow, but in some cases I fully intended to never sell them, but rather keep them, generally in the 200$ range, but the more expensive ones I did sell.
Here's my thoughts on why I think 40k feels so expensive, the simple answer being that the game isn't good enough to justify the price. Look at it this way, when I buy my Magic cards, I'm either drafting which means I'm using the product right then and there, or I'm playing a constructed format. Even the more niche formats I can find a tournament at least once a month in my area, if not more, but I can't say the same about 40k, in fact I want to play in ITC events but looking at the map there are 0 events in the Boston area in the near future, with the closest being in other neighboring states that are several hours of driving away. With Magic there were local small scale events every day of the week, I could decide when I played and how I played, at what store I played, and then there were larger events each weekend of different types, in fact even with those I was spoiled for choice most of the time. With 40k, sure I can probably find people in my area to play against, but because the rules are dependent on house rules I have to go out of my way to negotiate things, just to set up a game with one person, and this simply isn't the case with other gaming hobbies, or well any hobbies, where in most cases you can show up to an LGS or club and play a game with complete strangers without having to know them.
In short, I feel like 40k only feels expensive because of how little use it really has, it's not like other games where you can just always have someone to play with, but rather it's a game that puts a massive burden on you to just get a game going, which makes it seem significantly more expensive than it really is.
What do you guys think? What makes 40k feel expensive to you? I know I always thought it was overpriced, but when I sat down and thought about it, I realised it wasn't that it was overpriced, it was just that the game aspect of it wasn't good enough to make me feel safe for the price I was paying, reasonable or not.
I live in your area. I don't know what it is, but MA as a whole, can't hold onto gamestores and 40k, eventhough, there's a huge following. Players everywhere, just no stores or products. Strange.
Loborocket wrote: Ok. My mistake. Maybe it is time for you to move on to another GAME if 40k is too expensive. Please, move on to another game. One you find exceptional in all facets, and spend all of your time on it rather than time spent wishing and hoping 40k meets all of your expectations. 40k is not for everyone. Some feel it it too expensive, some feel the rules are terrible, or both. If you are one of those 40k is NOT for you. Find you real passion and go persue that.
If you do not feel the game is expensive, it would be interesting to hear about your reasons, as relevant to the topic.
Tinkrr wrote: I don't mean why is this game so expensive, I mean why does it feel so expensive. One thing I looked at was how much my investment into 40k would cost as a whole, and how much my investment into my other hobbies would cost, one being Magic: the Gathering, and honestly, I've spent more on Magic than I would ever on 40k, and I don't feel any issue with it, but I feel rather stingy when it comes to 40k. More so, I've spent a ton on free games like League and Hearthstone without feeling bad about it, though every small purchase in 40k leaves me feeling drained. The obvious answer is that all those purchases are small purchases, so they don't feel as bad as a 50$ kit from 40k, though I've bought individual cards worth over 400$. Now you can say they will retain value, and even grow, but in some cases I fully intended to never sell them, but rather keep them, generally in the 200$ range, but the more expensive ones I did sell.
Here's my thoughts on why I think 40k feels so expensive, the simple answer being that the game isn't good enough to justify the price. Look at it this way, when I buy my Magic cards, I'm either drafting which means I'm using the product right then and there, or I'm playing a constructed format. Even the more niche formats I can find a tournament at least once a month in my area, if not more, but I can't say the same about 40k, in fact I want to play in ITC events but looking at the map there are 0 events in the Boston area in the near future, with the closest being in other neighboring states that are several hours of driving away. With Magic there were local small scale events every day of the week, I could decide when I played and how I played, at what store I played, and then there were larger events each weekend of different types, in fact even with those I was spoiled for choice most of the time. With 40k, sure I can probably find people in my area to play against, but because the rules are dependent on house rules I have to go out of my way to negotiate things, just to set up a game with one person, and this simply isn't the case with other gaming hobbies, or well any hobbies, where in most cases you can show up to an LGS or club and play a game with complete strangers without having to know them.
In short, I feel like 40k only feels expensive because of how little use it really has, it's not like other games where you can just always have someone to play with, but rather it's a game that puts a massive burden on you to just get a game going, which makes it seem significantly more expensive than it really is.
What do you guys think? What makes 40k feel expensive to you? I know I always thought it was overpriced, but when I sat down and thought about it, I realised it wasn't that it was overpriced, it was just that the game aspect of it wasn't good enough to make me feel safe for the price I was paying, reasonable or not.
I live in your area. I don't know what it is, but MA as a whole, can't hold onto gamestores and 40k, eventhough, there's a huge following. Players everywhere, just no stores or products. Strange.
See, I hear that about the Boston area, I even hear about active Facebook groups and more, but every time I try to track one down I can't find anything or it's someone who recently quit. Heck, there's a ring around us of ITC events (although not many) in neighboring states. It's infuriating, like a wild goose chase with no end.
Meanwhile I keep gettin invited to infinite active magic groups since I've moved around the state so much and like every city has their own group.
Tinkrr wrote: there are 0 events in the Boston area in the near future, with the closest being in other neighboring states that are several hours of driving away.
While a 2 hour drive does kind of suck when compared to playing softball games, it's just part of being in a more niche' hobby. I also drive 1 hour to go to Karate tournaments for the same reason.
If you show up at the portal event, I'll buy you lunch to help lessen the sting of the drive.
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Runic wrote: The most likely culprit is a deeply embedded presumption that Warhammer 40,000 is more expensive than anything on the planet (which is not far off from what some claim).
It's really not.
I take Karate and my monthly fee is $100. In addition to that there are belt tests which averages another $12 a month. Then there are tournaments a few times per year, which are about $70 to participate in.
That means each year I'm shelling out $1,484 dollars to be active member attending classes 3 times a week and normal events.
Buying, assembling and painting 1-2 kits a month costs less. If you are constantly buying new armies, 40k is more expensive, but if you just keep up what you have it's not to bad.
Oh, and resist the urge to sell your armies if they are no longer 'competitive'. I've made that mistake to many times
Tinkrr wrote: there are 0 events in the Boston area in the near future, with the closest being in other neighboring states that are several hours of driving away.
While a 2 hour drive does kind of suck when compared to playing softball games, it's just part of being in a more niche' hobby. I also drive 1 hour to go to Karate tournaments for the same reason.
If you show up at the portal event, I'll buy you lunch to help lessen the sting of the drive.
There are a couple problems with that, the first being that while I've made that drive before for Magic events, I made it while having prior testing. With 40k, I'd be essentially driving to do testing as it's not really possible in my area.
The other problem is I don't really drive, I mean I have a license but I don't enjoy the act of driving and don't currently own a car as a result. I guess I could rent a car, I certainly have the means for it, but it would be longer than a two hour drive for me probably. With other events I generally know enough people going that travel isn't a problem. I mean it's not out of the question that I'd go to an event out in Connecticut, as it's not that far, but it'd be a million times easier if there was one in Boston itself, seeing as there are like four stores that do 40k, or so I hear.
That's a really nice offer D:
Edit: Another thing I should ask is how many rounds is this event? How many days at that?
Collector Plates from the Bradford Exchange is expensive.
Decorating your house like the Griswolds for every damn holiday like my neighbor is expensive (seriously, who decorates for Arbor Day?).
Pick a hobby. It's as expensive or inexpensive as you make it, to some degree.
Except dating. Chicks be expensive, yo!
Yes all those are expensive, thing is most people feel it's worth it. For what ever reason, us geeks and nerds don't feel GW is worth it, but yet we stick around and complain. Hey wait, we are all Canadians.
For people posting the whole "but motorcross/model trains/etc. Are more expensive!" Spiel, you realize that's not what people are talking about right?
I'll use myself as an example, I play guitar and I shoot guns. You can easily spend $800 USA on a nice firearm or guitar. That's ignoring the hidden costs like strings, amps, ammo, targets, sights, etc.
I will gladly drop money on either of those no issue for the price, yet still consider GW expensive.
You need to realize people complaining about the cost are not comparing this to other hobbies, they're comparing GW to other companies IN THE SAME MARKET. It is absolutely fair to label GW as expensive when competitors can make similar quality kits for far lower prices, or beat them on quality in the same price bracket.
Saying "well, GW is dirt cheap compared to Magic/hang gliding/racing/ etc." Is ridiculous. Yes, playing 40k is infinitely cheaper than flying a plane as a hobby, but that doesn't matter because I'm not trying to buy a plane, I'm buying 40k. I get that this argument also applies to the fact that regardless if other model companies beat 40k in price or quality, you still don't care because you want to play 40k, that's fine. But don't lie to people or yourself and think GW is cheap or reasonable when literally every company making plastic kits that are even remotely in the same vein are beating them in price or quality, or both.
Gw is expensive for their market, that's a fact. They seem to be taking steps to remedy this with the getting started boxes and whatnot, but they still have a ways to go.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Saying "well, GW is dirt cheap compared to Magic/hang gliding/racing/ etc." Is ridiculous. Yes, playing 40k is infinitely cheaper than flying a plane as a hobby, but that doesn't matter because I'm not trying to buy a plane, I'm buying 40k.
Strongly disagree here. The comparison might not be valid for you, but it's valid for a lot of people. For example, that plane might cost you $30,000, with operating costs of $100+ per hour. A weekend trip could easily cost you $300 in fuel alone, plus food, hotel rooms, airport fees, etc. So if that's your primary hobby expense then maybe the price of 40kdoesn't matter. A tank model that takes a month to finish and contributes to years of playing the game is still "cheap" regardless of whether it costs $50 or $100.
I think it's fine to compare any hobby to any other hobby, since we all have limited funds and time. Though when making that comparison it's not about just a number in terms of expense, it's how we feel about that expense.
Let me put it this way, my co-worker bought a bike recently for almost 3k, and they thought it was a steal. In fact it was, because the bike was 5-10k probably, and I'm not talking about a motorcycle, I'm talking about a normal bike they can ride on rough terrain, such as snow. I want to buy a bike, for transportation, and I'm looking to spend at most a couple hundred dollars, for me the price he paid is outlandish, even at the massive discount, but for him it's not. He even said he bought it because he tried one of that type and couldn't stop smiling while riding it.
That's what this is all about, it's what we get out of it. For him riding that bike is a hobby, for me riding a bike is just getting from point A to point B. I fully understand his enjoyment of it, and while it feels expensive for me, it probably feels more than cheap for him.
That's what this discussion is about, the price doesn't matter what the price tag is, it depends what we get out of it, and what we actually feel about it. That plane can be infinitely more expensive than 40k, heck your car is infinitely more expensive than your 40k collection most of the time, but the utility of the car or plane probably doesn't make it feel expensive at all in the long run, but for 40k that's not the case. Obviously a car is a necessity for most, but in reality it's not, I don't drive but rather move as needed, it's great for me, and for me a car feels overly expensive, and that's what this is all about, how we view the utility of a product in comparison to the price. Not the actual number.... I mean would you feel a plane is expensive at a hundred thousand dollars? Now would you feel getting punched in the face for one penny is expensive?
Edit: Honestly, I'm super happy that this thread has been so on topic so far, with so few people coming in and making posts without reading my opening and just saying "Oh, but look at the price of ___ or ___ it's clearly not more money than most things." because this is all about our desire to spend money on whatever hobby we have, no matter what it is, or how many hobbies we have.
Loborocket wrote: Ok. My mistake. Maybe it is time for you to move on to another GAME if 40k is too expensive. Please, move on to another game. One you find exceptional in all facets, and spend all of your time on it rather than time spent wishing and hoping 40k meets all of your expectations. 40k is not for everyone. Some feel it it too expensive, some feel the rules are terrible, or both. If you are one of those 40k is NOT for you. Find you real passion and go persue that.
If you do not feel the game is expensive, it would be interesting to hear about your reasons, as relevant to the topic.
If you looked just a couple posts above this one you would have seen my "on topic" reasons. Chasing "new hotness", switching armies, always feeling like you need the new thing, that will make the game "feel" expensive. That combined with the fact you have higher expectations you don't feel like you get value.
I have spent from $1600 to $2000 over the last 4 yrs or so on the game. That comes out to about $10-$15 per week. I can play at least 2 games a week if I wanted to. I get to paint models pretty much as much as I want, plenty of backlog, spend time thinking about army builds, listen to podcasts on 40k, watch YouTube shows on 40k. I feel like I get a lot for my $15 per week. All of it is a nice distraction from other thing in my life, so if that still "feels too expensive" I say you should really look elsewhere for your hobby $.
In your example, you (an outsider) thought the bike was absurdly expensive.
Your friends, people who are into biking, thought it was relatively cheap.
How is this different from someone who doesn't play any mini gaming thinking the whole thing is absurdly expensive (which I hear all the time...) versus someone in the hobby saying "wow, 40k seems very expensive for this?"
Akiasura wrote: In your example, you (an outsider) thought the bike was absurdly expensive.
Your friends, people who are into biking, thought it was relatively cheap.
How is this different from someone who doesn't play any mini gaming thinking the whole thing is absurdly expensive (which I hear all the time...) versus someone in the hobby saying "wow, 40k seems very expensive for this?"
Pardon? I think you must have gotten something wrong in your post, but that's pretty much my issue, that even people in this hobby have a feeling of it being expensive, not that those who do play overall feel it's reasonably priced.
One example I mentioned was that I play a "dead" format of Magic that is super expensive, people who don't play that format think it's super expensive, but people who do think it's reasonable for what it is. I don't get that from 40k, even the people who do play it generally feel it's expensive and that's an issue as a whole with the game, as opposed to simply a dollar value of the product.
It reads like you're saying that you have to be in the hobby to appreciate how cheap or expensive something is, but you are also saying the value of that is hard to determine and immaterial in a way.
Basically, are you saying people can't look at gw and their competition and determine if it's expensive or not?
As for your format, i can't comment on it. Is the format so unique no other card game can mirror it? Why is it so expensive?
Akiasura wrote: It reads like you're saying that you have to be in the hobby to appreciate how cheap or expensive something is, but you are also saying the value of that is hard to determine and immaterial in a way.
Basically, are you saying people can't look at gw and their competition and determine if it's expensive or not?
As for your format, i can't comment on it. Is the format so unique no other card game can mirror it? Why is it so expensive?
Both, either, all? What I'm saying is that usually a hobby appears expensive to outsiders, but to insiders it's no expensive, as they truly get a joy and utility out of it that makes the cost seem minor. Then on top of that I'm saying I don't see that in 40k, as even the insiders feel it's a little expensive, despite the actual cost not being that bad, and I'm someone who played the game way back when, didn't find it expensive, and now as I'm returning it feels like a burden, despite how cheap it was for me to get into it as I knew a source that got me most of my product at over 60% off. That's what I'm trying to address, the feeling of insiders who play the game, and are in the hobby, but still don't get that satisfaction as others get in other hobbies that are just as expensive or more so.
Yes, the format is unique, it's using cards printed over 20 years ago at this point, that can not be reprinted. So when I go out and put down 800$+ on a card, it's buying a piece of history from a game I enjoy, it's capturing something that has been around for so long, and was at the start of such a massive franchise, and I can still play with today. Yes, it's a dead format, but I can play in small events for it (30+ people) locally at least once a month with little travel, I can even go to larger more expensive events that have a couple hundred people but can have a hundred dollar or more buy in... These events aren't just for that one tournament, but they have people playing things like the "Art League" which is a sub set format that basically states you can only play cards that you own the original art for (as in the original painting the artist made) they even play wearing those gloves museum workers wear as sort of a joke because they're in a way handling art they own now. There's another format that also spawned off of it called '93/'94 magic which is where you can only play cards printed in those years, most of which are only a few dollars but some do exceed several hundred dollars as I've mentioned before.
It's completely a hobby format, it's not that common for Magic, it's not something you get into to grind into pro-tours or whatever, it's just something you enjoy and get use out of. Yes, there's a resale value to the cards, but most who buy in don't intend to really sell out, to them it's about collecting pieces of art and history, and playing the awesome game known as Vintage. I remember snatching up purchases on ebay between the 200-400$ range and being excited about it, and praying they weren't counterfeit. I also remember buying a Crisis Suit kit in person for what 15-20$ and feeling happy about it until I learned how little use I'd ever get out of it, at which point there was a crashing feeling of it almost being counterfeit.
Tinkrr wrote: Both, either, all? What I'm saying is that usually a hobby appears expensive to outsiders, but to insiders it's no expensive, as they truly get a joy and utility out of it that makes the cost seem minor.
This is an excellent way of putting it. I couldn't have said it better myself. People who enjoy sailboats think it's money well spent; people who don't think moorage fees are crazy expensive.
Then on top of that I'm saying I don't see that in 40k, as even the insiders feel it's a little expensive, despite the actual cost not being that bad, and I'm someone who played the game way back when, didn't find it expensive, and now as I'm returning it feels like a burden, despite how cheap it was for me to get into it as I knew a source that got me most of my product at over 60% off. That's what I'm trying to address, the feeling of insiders who play the game, and are in the hobby, but still don't get that satisfaction as others get in other hobbies that are just as expensive or more so.
Yes, the format is unique, it's using cards printed over 20 years ago at this point, that can not be reprinted. So when I go out and put down 800$+ on a card, it's buying a piece of history from a game I enjoy, it's capturing something that has been around for so long, and was at the start of such a massive franchise, and I can still play with today.
This just means that you love MtG more than you love 40k. $800 on a card or $800 on a model or $800 on a football jersey, what's the difference? They're all luxury goods that people with extra money spend that give them some joy.
It's easy to answer the question, "Does Warhammer 40k cost more than other tabletop wargames?" -- the answer is of course, yes. It costs a lot more than most other tabletop wargames. So the next question is, does it make you a lot happier than another tabletop wargame that costs a lot less?
If the answer is yes, the game won't feel expensive. If the answer is no, then the game should. This is, of course, tempered by how valuable money -- in the numbers we're talking about -- is to you. There are an awful lot of very rich people in this world, but even excluding those, there are a lot of people for whom $300 versus $1,000 for a game is an easy choice to make if they like the $1,000 game even a little better. Kind of like paying for $1,000 seats instead of $300 seats at a concert or sports event.
Keep in mind that there are a myriad of reasons that one might answer "yes" -- the satisfaction of modelling a sea of miniatures; a love of the aesthetic or storyline; genuine affection for the game; a better play group. There are just so many criteria that we use to judge it.
All I can say is that there are people who play 40k despite it feeling expensive, and there are people who play 40k who don't feel it's expensive -- and the two main differences between these groups will be how much enjoyment they get out of it, and how much disposable income they have.
Eldarain wrote: I think it's important to focus on the actual question being asked. It's not "Is the game expensive?" "It's " Why does this game feel so expensive?"
It's a very strong point as I find myself in a similar space as the OP. I happily drop far more money on LCGs, board games, WMH etc.
For me it comes down to value for my money. The price of the kits and rules for 40k just don't reflect money well spent anymore. The rules are expensive and poorly written (comparing the YMDC forums for 40k and WMHs is staggering. 40k threads go in circles for many pages until people tire of the argument or a mod locks them. Not one WMH thread reaches a second page!)
While definitely subjective I have not liked the direction the plastic kits have been taking and the prices (especially when weighed against how many are needed) just don't feel like a sound purchase anymore.
I still do hand GW money though. But it is exclusively for FW products as I still value their approach to the 30k rules and their resin kits are both nicer aesthetically (IMO) and barely more expensive than GW expects for their plastics.
MrMoustaffa wrote: For people posting the whole "but motorcross/model trains/etc. Are more expensive!" Spiel, you realize that's not what people are talking about right?
I'll use myself as an example, I play guitar and I shoot guns. You can easily spend $800 USA on a nice firearm or guitar. That's ignoring the hidden costs like strings, amps, ammo, targets, sights, etc.
....
Quite right!
I spend about £1,000 a year on rowing clubs for my daughter and myself. What we get out of that money is not little plastic soldiers and paints and rules, it's fresh air, exercise, team based competition, tickets for Henley Royal Regatta, and so on.
It's irrelevant that for £1,000 I could buy a pretty large new GW army. What's relevant is that if I spent £500 on GW stuff, and £500 on non-GW stuff, I would overall end up with a lot more of the non-GW stuff.
I suppose what it boils down to is, do you consider mini war gaming the hobby (in which case 40k is very expensive from a relative standpoint) or do you consider 40k the hobby.
At least, to me, that is what it sounds like everyone's arguments is coming down to. If it's mini wargaming, other games are much cheaper to break into and 40k seems expensive. If it's 40k, while it may seem expensive, there is no other choice out there.
Tinkrr, even though you love your format of magic, I think if someone said "This seems really expensive..." you'd have to agree . I'm not saying it's not worth it, only you can determine that, but objectively it does seem very expensive.
It feels so expensive IMHO because you are normally buying multiples. You don't typically buy just one Tactical Squad, you need 3 of the same box; you buy 2 boxes of Assault Marines to make a single unit (so if you wanted 2 units, you have to buy 4 boxes).
Also, you frequently need to buy supplemental things. You buy a tactical squad box, but you also need a Rhino to transport them. You don't want a missile launcher? You need to buy a Devastator box for additional weapon options.
That's a big reason IMHO. It's not just because it IS expensive, it's because you feel like you're getting cheated every time you buy something because you need to buy something else or several more boxes because of how the points system works in 40k.
To compare: Warmachine isn't exactly cheap but it's very rare that you buy more than one unit box + attachment blister (some spam lists aside). So you feel like you are getting more variety for your money, because for example I'll buy a unit box and the attachment (Let's say that comes to $70, $50 for the box, $20 for the UA), and that's the only one I need to buy in 99% of situations, so when I buy 3-4 units I have complete units that I don't need multiples of and I can fill out my army with solos (usually inexpensive) and Warjacks (about average cost). It feels better than having to buy 3 of the same box to fill out an army, plus a transport for each, plus everything else.
Akiasura wrote: I suppose what it boils down to is, do you consider mini war gaming the hobby (in which case 40k is very expensive from a relative standpoint) or do you consider 40k the hobby.
At least, to me, that is what it sounds like everyone's arguments is coming down to. If it's mini wargaming, other games are much cheaper to break into and 40k seems expensive. If it's 40k, while it may seem expensive, there is no other choice out there.
Tinkrr, even though you love your format of magic, I think if someone said "This seems really expensive..." you'd have to agree . I'm not saying it's not worth it, only you can determine that, but objectively it does seem very expensive.
That is the crux of it!
If you will only buy GW stuff, it's impossible to find competing products, so the question of relative cost does not arise.
Even so, if GW put the price of a single infantry figure up to £220, I think a lot more people would come to agree it was expensive.
Another issue is when you purchase a 40k kit, you're only contributing to the one army that kit is for. But in MtG, when you purchase a booster, you can get cards that will contribute to multiple decks and play-styles. So even if you don't get the rare card you want, you still feel like you got something useful because you can say "oh, this can go in my aggro deck".
In 40k, you invest heavily into 1 army, but if you get tired of that army or if GW nerfs that army then you're stuck. You don't have a collection of models that can be used for other armies.
chaosmarauder wrote: To me it actually felt a lot worse back in the 90s when they pretty much only sold metal models.
I collected Warhammer fantasy back then.
I remember it was something like $18 to buy 2 infantry models or a command squad.
So if you wanted to field a unit of say 15 Daemonettes with command squad it would cost you like $200.
So to me atleast - the plastic kits seem way cheaper than back then.
I remember in the late 90s and early 00s metal units for fantasy were sold in boxes of 10 models for around 20€* (from 2002 to 2005 the price hiked up to 27€ or so). So in order to field a squad of 15 daemonettes you would need a box (about 20€), a command squad blister (12€) and another blister of 'normal' models (10€). That's around 42€ to me, which even a few years back when the Euro at its peak would have meant what, 55$? Unless GW was brutally screwing the US market, of course.
*Technically, in the late 90s the Euro was still not a thing in the streets, so speaking from memory regarding national currencies of the time.
40k feels expensive, because it is expensive. It'd feel about right if they cut the price of everything by 50%.
Still, at least you get something besides a card with a picture, one that is so easily reproducable in so many ways (not that I condone) that it makes one seriously wonder how the hobby stays afloat.
Then we get into hobbies like golf and scuba and the like, and 40k seems like peanuts even with the overinflat costs.
As someone who plays golf and does scuba, 40k is way more expensive than either. Golf is really a one time investment with a small fee to play, scuba is a one time investment with a relatively small fee to dive.
I've been doing both for 2 decades...I think combined they equal one of my 40k armies.
Well, there are some golf courses that are inexpensive to play on, however most are very expensive to play on, at least IMO and IME.
Scuba not only costs alot to get the equipment, it costs alot to go to nice places to scuba. It's my uncle's primary hobby, and he easily outspends me on his scuba trips compared to what I spend on 40k.
I guess alot of it depends on how deep you get into these hobbies...I mean 40k could even be said to have a one time expense. You only need one army and a couple books to play.
EDIT: I am not standing up for 40k as a cheap hobby here...I think it is way too expensive.
Hm, it's true if you have to travel for scuba. I live somewhat close to some of the best scuba spots in the country, so I never pay for travel. My girlfriend is a biologist so we can go for free.
I know my friends who traveled for 40k tournaments spent a lot. Going to something like wtc in wmh costs more than I've ever spent on golf.
I agree that 40k is expensive. I can make a lot more varied lists in wmh with cryx, skorne, and cygnar with my limited range than I can with all of my chaos models. It's against the same mostly competitive group too, so I'm constantly facing bradigus, MMM, EE, RoW (we have a ton of troll players), Harbringer, lylth2...
Necromunda is very cheap and is what I point most people to for their first 40k experience.
Yeah, my uncle lives near DC so unless he wants to scuba in a murky rock quarry, he's gotta go some place. They go to the Carribean, Central, and South America alot for scuba so you can imagine the plane tickets and hotel stays adding up.
I actually think Necromunda looks like a very cool game. I've read through the book and want to give it a go but alas for interested players. Warmahordes was popular for a hot minute around here, now nobody plays it at all. Really, if people ask me about an affordable avenue for TT gaming that actually has local support, I tend to gear them towards historicals if there's any interest there.
As a reference point, I think the prices we see in the TT historicals market are the kind of prices we should see in the TT sci-fi market.
People are often skeptical about necromunda, but the games really don't take long.
What I would do is look over the "living rule book" (it contains some common house rules and is much easier to go through) and just ask someone to do a quick demo game. It takes no time to do it compared to a 40k match, especially if you pre build the list. And there are a ton of well put together variant armies for other races that aren't unbalanced.
I had friends who had never played 40k or fantasy and after 2 games, joined the league so we have 12 players. One of them is an amateur cartographer and has made us a very cool map that he updates regularly as we gain/lose areas and points.
Akiasura wrote: People are often skeptical about necromunda, but the games really don't take long.
What I would do is look over the "living rule book" (it contains some common house rules and is much easier to go through) and just ask someone to do a quick demo game. It takes no time to do it compared to a 40k match, especially if you pre build the list. And there are a ton of well put together variant armies for other races that aren't unbalanced.
I had friends who had never played 40k or fantasy and after 2 games, joined the league so we have 12 players. One of them is an amateur cartographer and has made us a very cool map that he updates regularly as we gain/lose areas and points.
I suppose my problem with Necromunda interest is that the people I play with most regularly are most interested in very very big games, and they want to spend all of their gaming time playing very very big games.
Intrinsic value is something that is very hard to measure, especially since it's the very definition of what it is to be a hobby. Which is why direct dollar comparisons are very hard to do as someone could get a lot out of each dollar because they value in the experience, while others do not.
For example for me, Not only is the process of assembling and painting part of the intrinsic value, but dealhunting is one too. That feeling when you find someone selling an unknown gem and you managed to negotiate a fair (but really awesome) price for it. If I were to count every dollar I would have to factor in the time spent negotiating, gas and parking fees, and chemical costs for stripping the models (not to mention work hours to get the thing presentable again). But those don't matter to me as I inherently enjoy that process, far more than if I just shelled out the extra money to buy a new set from GW.
On that note, someone brought up that you can't really do cross-market comparisons with GW because technically there are barely any alternatives for GW products. One thing I wanna point out is that GW somehow manages to compete with itself a lot, especially when their marketing prices something without checking back to see what older items are priced at. Case-in point, the plastic Space Marine Commander Clampack is 10 CAD more than the plastic Space Marine Commander boxset, despite the latter actually having options and being essentially the same model. The pricing gets even worse when you consider the Masters of the Chapter boxset, which gives FOUR models for almost the same price as the Clampack (one of which basically has the same equipment) with the only material difference being that one is made of resin and the other is made of plastic. This is not even getting into using generic models converted to be characters, which is even cheaper.
Price discrepencies like that on their own website just compounds on the initial high price of entry already for the game, which makes the expense all that much more obvious.
Ah, fair enough.
They might like Gorkamorka which is bigger but I doubt it.
That's too bad, you are missing out on great fun. I recently had a game where someone tried to get a hostage back and ended up eating a flamer to the face before killing the 2 wardens and breaking the guy out. The whole game was tense since I'm very good at combat, and have tons of tech, but slow, while my enemy is playing a very fast army so is good at the stealth missions. He almost made it through the whole base until the flamer guy went off, but he was killed before the alarm could be set off.
The girl who ate the flamer ended up horribly scarred and now causes fear, she's that ugly. Pretty sure I'm going to get raided by that player, or he will team up with some one and try to take one of my precious artifacts. I may need to make a deal with the gene stealer cult and trade them some guys for protection.
The game just naturally creates a narrative that is unseen in anything else I've ever played.
chaosmarauder wrote: To me it actually felt a lot worse back in the 90s when they pretty much only sold metal models.
I collected Warhammer fantasy back then.
I remember it was something like $18 to buy 2 infantry models or a command squad.
So if you wanted to field a unit of say 15 Daemonettes with command squad it would cost you like $200.
So to me atleast - the plastic kits seem way cheaper than back then.
I remember in the late 90s and early 00s metal units for fantasy were sold in boxes of 10 models for around 20€* (from 2002 to 2005 the price hiked up to 27€ or so). So in order to field a squad of 15 daemonettes you would need a box (about 20€), a command squad blister (12€) and another blister of 'normal' models (10€). That's around 42€ to me, which even a few years back when the Euro at its peak would have meant what, 55$? Unless GW was brutally screwing the US market, of course.
*Technically, in the late 90s the Euro was still not a thing in the streets, so speaking from memory regarding national currencies of the time.
Dont know if it was before boxed sets or the store just didnt have that many boxes but almost everything was sold in blister packs of 2-3 metal models even basic infantry.
chaosmarauder wrote: To me it actually felt a lot worse back in the 90s when they pretty much only sold metal models.
I collected Warhammer fantasy back then.
I remember it was something like $18 to buy 2 infantry models or a command squad.
So if you wanted to field a unit of say 15 Daemonettes with command squad it would cost you like $200.
So to me atleast - the plastic kits seem way cheaper than back then.
I remember in the late 90s and early 00s metal units for fantasy were sold in boxes of 10 models for around 20€* (from 2002 to 2005 the price hiked up to 27€ or so). So in order to field a squad of 15 daemonettes you would need a box (about 20€), a command squad blister (12€) and another blister of 'normal' models (10€). That's around 42€ to me, which even a few years back when the Euro at its peak would have meant what, 55$? Unless GW was brutally screwing the US market, of course.
*Technically, in the late 90s the Euro was still not a thing in the streets, so speaking from memory regarding national currencies of the time.
Dont know if it was before boxed sets or the store just didnt have that many boxes but almost everything was sold in blister packs of 2-3 metal models even basic infantry.
No, that was the case. You sometimes had cheap plastic boxes with like 8 or so dudes in it, but most of it was metal. I remember having to buy a unit of Dark Elf Spearmen and it was like $60ish for the entire unit; what always bugged me was the command was 3 guys, blisters were 2 so I always had 1 guy left over for a unit of 20 so I almost always ended up fielding a unit of 15 (6 blister packs + command squad). That was in... 1995-96 I want to say.
Zimko wrote: Another issue is when you purchase a 40k kit, you're only contributing to the one army that kit is for. But in MtG, when you purchase a booster, you can get cards that will contribute to multiple decks and play-styles. So even if you don't get the rare card you want, you still feel like you got something useful because you can say "oh, this can go in my aggro deck".
In 40k, you invest heavily into 1 army, but if you get tired of that army or if GW nerfs that army then you're stuck. You don't have a collection of models that can be used for other armies.
This is only partially true, since most people who play magic competitively don't buy boosters outside of limited play, but rather they buy indicidual cards. More, a play set of Bazaar of Bahgdad or Mishra's Workshops cost 700$ x 4 or so for each sey and only work in one format and one deck type, well you can say one deck even. That's 2800$ for four cards only really playable in one deck, yet it's not massively uncommon though it's an extreme. There are plenty of similar cards at lower values but still costing 50$+. These investments aren't completely safe from the ban hammer either, Splinter Twin was banned recently in the only format it's played and I'm guessing it was above the 20$ mark.
Don't forget, we also have allies in 40k now so there's more cross use of units, because if for example my Tau get nerfed I could still play Taudar or something.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Saying "well, GW is dirt cheap compared to Magic/hang gliding/racing/ etc." Is ridiculous. Yes, playing 40k is infinitely cheaper than flying a plane as a hobby, but that doesn't matter because I'm not trying to buy a plane, I'm buying 40k.
Strongly disagree here. The comparison might not be valid for you, but it's valid for a lot of people. For example, that plane might cost you $30,000, with operating costs of $100+ per hour. A weekend trip could easily cost you $300 in fuel alone, plus food, hotel rooms, airport fees, etc. So if that's your primary hobby expense then maybe the price of 40kdoesn't matter. A tank model that takes a month to finish and contributes to years of playing the game is still "cheap" regardless of whether it costs $50 or $100.
Except that's not really the case, no matter how rich you are, if you aren't satisfied with a product it'll feel expensive for what it is, that's what this discussion is about. It's not about money or price itself, it's about perseption and satisfaction or lack thereof.
Trust me, if you're used to eating good quality burgers that are 15-20$, and you don't find them expensive, you can easily feel like a 2$ McWhatever is expensive because it feels like a waste of money. That's the issue with GW, it's not that it's expensive, it's that it's empty.
The thing is at least with most armies when I buy a box of 40k minis, I am hardly ever dissatisfied with the content. It's really just the price. When things break down to like $10-15+ dollars per miniature, it's a hard pill to swallow. Especially comparative to other games.
jasper76 wrote: 40k feels expensive, because it is expensive. It'd feel about right if they cut the price of everything by 50%.
Still, at least you get something besides a card with a picture, one that is so easily reproducable in so many ways (not that I condone) that it makes one seriously wonder how the hobby stays afloat.
Then we get into hobbies like golf and scuba and the like, and 40k seems like peanuts even with the overinflat costs.
I collect watches. My most recent purchase, an Omega PO 8500 Liquidmetal, cost more than every penny I've ever spent on wargames, MtG and video games combined. It still doesn't make $150 for a thanatar seem like a bargain. That watch will always be worth close to what I paid for it and I could pass it down to my grandkids (if I were ever unfortunate enough to have children). The models are something I play with for awhile and then ebay for half of what I paid to fund a new army. Anything else I drop that kind of money on (guns, cars, watches, autographed football memorabilia) feels like a worthwhile investment compared to some plastic/resin models.
Now excuse me while I go add some stuff to my FW cart to get me over the 250 pound free shipping minimum...
If you go to the shop to buy some oranges at £2.50 per kilo, and you come home with rump steak at £25.00 per kilo, does that mean that oranges are cheap fruit?
Akiasura wrote: As someone who plays golf and does scuba, 40k is way more expensive than either. Golf is really a one time investment with a small fee to play, scuba is a one time investment with a relatively small fee to dive.
I've been doing both for 2 decades...I think combined they equal one of my 40k armies.
I'm not sure where you're playing but it must be cheaper than my golf courses. When I played at Muirfield it was $50,000 a year. Golf Club of Dublin was $110 a round. Longaberger was about $150. Any golf course I played on Maui was at least $125 a round just for greens fees. That doesn't include clubs, balls, gloves, tees, food, alcohol, etc. However, Muirfield was a private club built by Jack Nicklaus that hosts a large PGA tournament every year so it's a bit at the higher end of the price scale. Either way, unless you're using some obsolete clubs and playing on a bad to mediocre course, golf is definitely more expensive than 40k. $200 for 4 hours of golf. Now if you buy $200 worth of GW or even FW models, how long will it take you to build and paint them? This doesn't count time you'll spend playing the games.
So the major discussion, when you cut everything that's been posted here to the core, is in perceived value. The issue is it's nigh impossible to convince someone that what they perceive as value isn't and there's no reason to even try. I've seen several posts here argue the fact that getting models that you can convert and paint adds to the value of the models for them; for me it's just the opposite - I view painting models as a chore I have to do to make them at least look decent to play with (and to be honest, I don't get that chore done as often as I should). I'm a gamer, I enjoy gaming, I enjoy wargames for the dynamics of army building rather than the static nature of board games. Given the choice, I will always choose painted models like X-Wing. Does this mean the person that perceives unpainted models to be higher value is wrong? Absolutely not, I know several people that enjoy painting the figures at least as much, if not more than, gaming with them. However, his argument also does not mean I am wrong in the value I get out of already painted models and being able to just get to the gaming.
So you may ask why I play 40k? Initially I didn't even know there were other options and all of the people in the gaming group that I joined played 40k and then we brought more people in (this was the middle of 5th ed). Now, I have a large group of Tyranid and CSM models and hadn't really wanted to spend money on new models for another new game I still love the look of the models and I enjoy the fluff of my armies, but my play "group" is now down to 2 of us -most having left for board games or just not liking the direction 40K went- and we only play 40k every now and then. I honestly haven't touched my 40K models since October or November. Then a friend of mine expressed an interest in X-Wing and we split the starter set and I found out everything that GW is doing wrong. So I don't need to buy a rulebook and a codex and dataslates and Imperial Armor on top of 100 models to play a semi-competitive game? Really? Not to mention that I've spent all of maybe 80.00 on X-Wing and I can now play at 100 points of either Imperial or Rebel, maybe not fully tournament competitive 100 points, but I don't think I'm that far off. That's why 40k feels expensive, within its own arena it IS expensive.
So that's the thing, like I'm not just an outsider looking in, I'm someone who wants to enjoy 40k, who wants to be really into it, but just can't find enough reason to feel happy about it as a whole. I also see this in a lot of 40k fans, they're just not happy about the whole situation.
That being said, I can't say I'm ever sad when buying a kit right away, I do enjoy the painting and modeling, but it does feel tiring after painting a large series of the same model. Though as a whole there is a happiness to getting a new kit, but that feeling fades super fast when I realise I can't actually play it in a game, because there aren't any games to be played unless I want to go over the top in travel.
I think that's what's so big about Magic for me, there's the rush of getting a new thing, a piece of art, a piece of history, and then there's the game I can play. I was going to say that Vintage is the size of 40k, but really it's not, it's a dead format of Magic and it's still so much more alive than 40k, which is honestly heartbreaking.
Edit: Heck, I haven't played Magic in a year or so, but the option is always there, and I get pestered more to play it than anything else, which is a great feeling, but I can't ever say the same for 40k. You can't deny that having the option to always do something, even if you might not, is better than not ever having the option, that's why so many people have gym memberships after all.
It's sort of hard to compare MtG with 40k, beyond the fact that both are hobbies. MtG is a card game..they are selling pieces of paper with pictures and words that you put in a deck and can instantly play with. 40k is a game as well as a craft hobby. Not that you have to do the craft part, but someone does unless you're counting pennies as Tac Marines and nickels as Sternguard,
MtG is usually compared to 40k because MtG is seen as the premier collectable card game that all others are measured against (Yugioh may be more popular, but MtG is understood as the most well designed, if not balanced).
40k is often considered the "premier" tabletop wargame since it's one of the most iconic. While not many people know of tabletop wargames, generally those that do will know of 40k better than any other game.
The reason the two are compared so much is that MtG is what 40k Could Be, if the company actually gave half a squig's ass about balance, design and the hobby.
Sure, MtG is what 40k could be, but only if GW transformed a game of miniatures into a game of cards. But maybe the point is more about rules, design, and balance.
Hobbywise, I mean from an "arts and crafts" perspective, there is no meat whatsoever to MtG, except of course if people are making their own artwork for cards, which I doubt is a mainstream part of the game.
Considering the extent of GW's hobby advice nowadays is "buy this set with these paints and a brush", there's not much they're offering in terms of hobby either, at least no more than Wizards do for MtG (MtG at least have tactics, deckbuilding and artwork showcases).
I use to get lost in the dozens of Daily MtG articles just like I use to with Black Gobbo. Now I just get lost in Daily MtG.
Here you are being wilfully dishonest. It is well known that GW sells a wide range of overpriced paints, glues, craft tools, craftbooks, etc. MtG is a game, but it is a game that requires no craft from the player, in the sense of 'arts and crafts'. You simplyt buy cards, put them in your deck, maybe get rid of some old cards, shuffle, play, rinse, repeat. I'm not putting it down, I actually like the game.
jasper76 wrote: Here you are being wilfully dishonest. It is well known that GW sells a wide range of overpriced paints, glues, craft tools, craftbooks, etc. MtG is a game, but it is a game that requires no craft from the player, in the sense of 'arts and crafts'. You simplyt buy cards, put them in your deck, maybe get rid of some old cards, shuffle, play, rinse, repeat. I'm not putting it down, I actually like the game.
Actally, that may work in MtG's favor. Wizards of the Coast doesn't have a vested interest in customization, which means there is no conflict of interest when players do customize their cards and mats and can showcase them.
What this means is you are not required to engage in customization to enjoy the game and the company can support it with less hesitation.
GW on the other hand does have a vested interest in customization, as it can eat into their profits. I know of the days when GW showcased cool custom models made from deodorant bottles and encouraged players to do so with anything try could find. Now, due to that conflict of interest, nothing is being showcased unless it is 100% GW approved and you are kicked out of GW stores if they find out you have "counterfeit" models.
And no, offering substandard, overpriced paints and brushed does not make them an arts and crafts company, especially when they requiem your army to be painted to be played at their stores, like surtax on your models.
You guys do know MtG has a craft element to it, if you want, right? There's not only a hobby of altering cards, but actually a whole business to it too. It's literally a painting hobby, which if done well adds to the value of the product.
Heck, one guy bought some beat up Moxen (couple hundred dollars each even in ba condition) and a black lotus that was best up (at the time was probably 500$+) and for those of you who don't know the Moxen are jewels in their art and there's a total of five, with the lotus being six. He had them altered so the original jewel/lotus showed but if you layer them out together they'd form an ornate Indian Jone's style treasure map.
I'll see if I can dig up a picture of it, it's super pretty. But yea, there's a lot of art to be had with MTG, whether it's altering art or making 3D cards (3D cards are not tournament legal).
The discussion of the super-expensive out-of-print Magic cards isn't really relevant to most player's experience. Those cards aren't allowed in most tournaments, for one.
Also, a lot of Magic players do booster draft tournaments, which are in the ballpark of $12 to $15 and don't really require any kind of prior startup cost. Startup cost is where 40K really suffers.
Saying "well, GW is dirt cheap compared to Magic/hang gliding/racing/ etc." Is ridiculous.
bs. It's a hobby like any other. End of. Period.
"But other companies are cheaper."
Collecting cars is a hobby. Buying a 2008 Hundai is cheaper than buying a 1969 Mustang.
"But don't lie to people or yourself and think GW is cheap or reasonable when literally every company making plastic kits that are even remotely in the same vein are beating them in price or quality, or both."
Strawman argument. No one is saying that GW is cheap or reasonable. Find one post in this thread that did. I'll wait.
"when literally every company making plastic kits that are even remotely in the same vein are beating them in price or quality, or both."
1. Other companies make excellent plastic kits. Again, find a post in this thread that claims otherwise. Again, I'll wait. 2. Show me an example from "literally every company" that is this fething awesome.. Remember, "literally every company," and not 1 or 2. That is YOUR childish claim. Back it up with facts, or start behaving like an adult in this thread.
Spoiler:
"It is absolutely fair to label GW as expensive when competitors can make similar quality kits for far lower prices, or beat them on quality in the same price bracket." 1. I call GW expensive all day. As does/has nearly everyone in this thread. I have kits from other manufacturers and think they're great! ME, for example. 2. Show me 3 examples from 3 different companies that have as many options and is of the similar quality for far lower prices as this kit. Show me 3. The onus is on you.
Spoiler:
Edit: This post may have come off more aggressive than I meant it to. Apologies for hurt feels and all that.
I don't view it as especially expensive. For less than £30 I'll spend a couple of hours assembling and a couple of weeks painting a predator tank. And when it's done I'll feel satisfied with it (hopefully, if I did a good job).
I guess if you only want to play then you are only "using" half of the product which might explain why it feels expensive. If I just thought of them as game pieces instead of a project I'll enjoy, I'd feel ripped off maybe.
My army might cost £300-400 but it's spread over a year and too many hours to count getting them up to a good standard.
40k is expensive, but GW miniatures are not significantly more expensive (and in many cases even cheaper) than the miniatures offered by other wargaming companies. In fact, model by model, GW is actually the cheapest of the companies I buy stuff from.
You can't really compare 40k with MtG in any meaningful way, the only thing they share in common is that players collect stuff. You might as well compare it with any other hobby that involves collecting stuff. What about post stamps?
About whether 40k feels expensive or not (to me it does!), that is a completely subjective matter of opinion. Other people will have different experiences and different opinions, and thus it is difficult to argue about it in a meaningful way. For example, someone who struggles to find games of 40k or someone who relies on a local store to find games with strangers will be in a completely different position from someone who has lots of friends that play 40k and can easily get a game at home every weekend. How expensive something feels to you depends a lot on the perceived value you get out of it, and as a matter of perception, it is not really argueable.
Well, to address the OP:
Why does 40k feel expensive?
Because comparatively I can have more fun for the money with my other hobbies.
To keep 40k alive and my collection up to date I grudgingly have to spend more on it than other hobbies for less fun (still fun mind you, but could have spent more on X-wing!).
Does that make sense?
Like I said before, the biggest issue is the huge asking prices of the kits. A few pages back I made the example of, say, a "boosterpack" of a marine for 5 dollars that was completely random (or, if you must have it on par with everything else, make it 8 dollars, basically the "average" of all the Power Armored models) and just gave you the pieces of that one marine, a lot less people would be apprehensive about it. But ask someone to drop 50-100 bucks, minimum, on a set, and it feels expensive. Even though logically we know that small increments adds up to the same, it's what feeds into these collecting addictions and hobbies, since our brains only see the 5 dollar investments, not the 400 or so we've blown this past month.
Like, take the new re-packaged bloodcrusher for example. It's a dreadnought-sized model that GW is effectively asking 20 bucks a pop for. That's not that unreasonable.
But put it in a box of 6 and charge 120? Now that's gonna make me stop and think a sec before opening my wallet. The price has not changed on a per-model basis, but the larger number just makes you feel a lot more unsure.
On top of that, an issue with GW kits is that you often get too much. I mean sure I'd like to have all the weapon options and arms available, but do I really need 30-40 shoulder pads and 15 heads? The new Assault Marine box actually comes with so many arms, heads, torso, pads and backpacks that if you just had 5 more legs, you could have assembled another 5 marines out of it. Again the arms I can see why, but to have enough extra bits to outfit nearly an extra set of marines seems way too excessive. This is even worse with dual kits, many of which only share the tiniest of parts (Mucolids and Tyrannocytes comes to mind) that otherwise have no reason to be in a kit together other than to drive sales.
(Now a good example of a dual kit is the Space Wolves one. That one actually makes all of the excess items feel right since the Wolf Guards, Grey Hunters and Blood Claws share so much that it would be unfeasable to make them all into separate kits.)
Finally, the pricing structure is weird as well. A box of tactical marines is 50 Canadian, while a box of Sternguards are 60 canadian. However, the Tactical Marines come with 3 full sprues while the sternguards come with only 2. And the two were released at relatively the same time, so it's not like one was the product of an older method. I can understand if a clampack cost the same as a box with 1 sprue in it, cuz regardless of the size of the sprue they still gotta set up the mold. But when something has actually less sprues (yes I'm aware that the sprues are all cast as one then split up during packaging) in it and being charged more, there's something up with their pricing scheme.
Say if tacticals were 50 bucks and sternguards were 45, that I could understand a little bit since it means the price difference in sprues is due to the casting company charging a flat rate for setting up, then an additional charge for the size of the actual sprues. For me, there's no reason why Sternguards should cost more. And it's not the amount of details either; the Scions were basically resculpted from scratch, but even they cost less than the Sternguards while having the same number of sprues.
Most people are dumbfounded when I tell them how much I spend on the rulebooks alone. $50 Codex, $80 rulebook, $70 Apocalypse, $70 Doom of Mymeara. Thats $270 just for the rules of my units. Add in the cost of a battleforce you want and you are looking at $800 easily. I guess you could remove the Forgeworld book if you wanted to play codex only units and the apocalypse book if you didn't want the formations but I shell it out cause of the size of my army. I can field every formation in the apocalypse book at full strength all at the same time except the Cloudstrike formation.
If someone doesn't like the game then they would feel as though their $800 was wasted. I know I started small with a vision and it took me years to complete that vision (30 wraithguard). Back then the wraithguard were metal only and came in blisters of 1 for $15 each. I bought them 1 at a time for 3 months before I could even field a small unit of 5. But those small purchases are gone (and frankly you can get a box of 5 wraithguard now for $50 so thats a little cheaper than what i pad for them). Back then it was easy to swallow multiple $15 purchases over a few months than a $50 purchase.
Tinkrr wrote: Trust me, if you're used to eating good quality burgers that are 15-20$, and you don't find them expensive, you can easily feel like a 2$ McWhatever is expensive because it feels like a waste of money. That's the issue with GW, it's not that it's expensive, it's that it's empty.
But my point is that if you're used to eating $150 steak dinners then the difference between a $2 McWhatever and a $2.50 RoyalBurger probably isn't going to make much of a difference to you when you're picking where to stop for food on a road trip. The $2.50 burger is technically more expensive than the $2 burger, but do you really care about that difference?
Same thing with other hobbies. If I'm used to paying $500+ for a weekend trip in my plane and just put $15k into an engine overhaul last year then whether I buy a $50 tank model or a $75 tank model (which will take me a month to build/paint and give me years of enjoyment) is barely relevant. Both tank models are "cheap", and I'll just buy the one I want more without paying much attention to the price.
Tinkrr wrote: Trust me, if you're used to eating good quality burgers that are 15-20$, and you don't find them expensive, you can easily feel like a 2$ McWhatever is expensive because it feels like a waste of money. That's the issue with GW, it's not that it's expensive, it's that it's empty.
But my point is that if you're used to eating $150 steak dinners then the difference between a $2 McWhatever and a $2.50 RoyalBurger probably isn't going to make much of a difference to you when you're picking where to stop for food on a road trip. The $2.50 burger is technically more expensive than the $2 burger, but do you really care about that difference?
Same thing with other hobbies. If I'm used to paying $500+ for a weekend trip in my plane and just put $15k into an engine overhaul last year then whether I buy a $50 tank model or a $75 tank model (which will take me a month to build/paint and give me years of enjoyment) is barely relevant. Both tank models are "cheap", and I'll just buy the one I want more without paying much attention to the price.
And my point is that it's silly to look at it that way, because as people we're usually not choosing between the same type of thing, as much as we're choosing between different things that fit a greater theme.
As it has come up often in this thread, you can compare apples to oranges when it comes to how expensive one feels in comparison to the other, because while they might be different objects, both are used for the same function of food and taste, which is a limited resource we as people generate. The same goes for hobbies, we only have so much time and finances for hobbies, so it's absolutely silly to go and say "Well GW is slightly less expensive than model company X" because I might have no interest in model company X, but I have interest in GW, and then I have interest in MtG, so those are my two things that consume my hobby time and finance, the other model company might as well not exist because it was never something I considered buying.
Let's put it in a simpler fashion, let's say you own an Xbox, and you're debating on whether you want to buy an Xbox game or see two movies in an IMAX theater with your entertainment budget, does it matter to you when someone comes along and says that the Xbox game is cheaper than a Playstation game? No, you don't own that system, and you weren't considering it, it's bloat information, that's what comparing GW to miniature company X is in this case, because while they have more things in common than other hobbies do to GW, they're not a consideration. That's the point, it might seem like two things are too different, but they're far more related based on the person than two things that seem more similar in a general sense, and reducing things too much will result in a null argument that doesn't matter, unless you want to buy a Wii game when all you own is an Xbox, because it's cheaper when compared to other games and not to other things you enjoy or have access to.
If I was Sir Richard Branson I could simply buy GW instead of running a space tourism company.
Does that make a single £22 Ad Mech Tech Priest Dominus infantry figure cheap compared to a compete 15mm army with 46 figures, priced at £22. for De Bellis Antiquitatis?
Kilkrazy wrote: If I was Sir Richard Branson I could simply buy GW instead of running a space tourism company.
Does that make a single £22 Ad Mech Tech Priest Dominus infantry figure cheap compared to a compete 15mm army with 46 figures, priced at £22. for De Bellis Antiquitatis?
But but but, The Hobby is an expensive hobby after all. If that De Bollocks Whatever you're saying is so cheap, then it's because its quality can't compare to the mighty 40k and its spess mehreens. I'd be ashamed if I had any DBA army, or Mantic models, those cheap knockoffs of the mighty GW.
Also those Eisenkern Stormtroopers from the previous page, such stupid knockoffs of the impressive, perfectly proportioned 40k cadian plastics, blergh.
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For the record, I have two DBA armies. The last one, Corinthians, costed me less money than some 40k vehicle kits.
Kilkrazy wrote: If I was Sir Richard Branson I could simply buy GW instead of running a space tourism company.
Does that make a single £22 Ad Mech Tech Priest Dominus infantry figure cheap compared to a compete 15mm army with 46 figures, priced at £22. for De Bellis Antiquitatis?
But why is it so important to compare miniatures to other miniatures instead of hobby expenses in general? That single infantry figure is going to take me 10+ hours to build and paint, and will almost certainly contribute to at least 10+ hours of gaming time. So that's about $1 per hour for the GW model, compared to $100+ per hour for an airplane rental. That pretty solidly puts even the GW model into the "ridiculously cheap" category, regardless of the fact that some other kit is even more ridiculously cheap. I'm not going to suddenly feel like spending 1% of the cost of my other hobby is "expensive" just because I could get it down to 0.5% if I changed games.
Kilkrazy wrote: If I was Sir Richard Branson I could simply buy GW instead of running a space tourism company.
Does that make a single £22 Ad Mech Tech Priest Dominus infantry figure cheap compared to a compete 15mm army with 46 figures, priced at £22. for De Bellis Antiquitatis?
But why is it so important to compare miniatures to other miniatures instead of hobby expenses in general? That single infantry figure is going to take me 10+ hours to build and paint, and will almost certainly contribute to at least 10+ hours of gaming time. So that's about $1 per hour for the GW model, compared to $100+ per hour for an airplane rental. That pretty solidly puts even the GW model into the "ridiculously cheap" category, regardless of the fact that some other kit is even more ridiculously cheap. I'm not going to suddenly feel like spending 1% of the cost of my other hobby is "expensive" just because I could get it down to 0.5% if I changed games.
Because without some sort of structure, we just compare everything to a giant mountain made of diamonds and everything is cheap?
It staggers me that despite my ongoing crusade to address the issue, that people still fail to distinguish between £/$ cost and value. It's futile to compare financial cost outside of the same, at least tangentially related, sphere, it's ridiculous to try and argue value because it's intensely personal.
What you use as a demonstration of "cost per hour" in terms of what a GW model costs vs the amount of entertainment it provides, I could easily argue as an investment of time as well as money, time has value, after all. The reason 40Kfeels expensive is because the OP isn't getting a what he/she feels is a decent ROI. In terms of hours provided painting/modeling, one can easily argue you can get a lot more hours for the same money, as you could just buy more models from someone else, in terms of gaming, well...
It isn't unsurprising that poor balance can make the time and money invested in getting a unit to the table feel like a complete waste when it just gets creamed by the new hotness in turn 2.
Kilkrazy wrote: If I was Sir Richard Branson I could simply buy GW instead of running a space tourism company.
Does that make a single £22 Ad Mech Tech Priest Dominus infantry figure cheap compared to a compete 15mm army with 46 figures, priced at £22. for De Bellis Antiquitatis?
it isn't about being cheap, it's about getting exactly what you want...
that Dominus is my favorite mini of 2015, and is sitting on my desk waiting for some paint...
he inspires me to get through my workload so that i can get to him...
a 15mm DBA army is one of the last things that would be on my wants list, so it would be like throwing money in the toilet...
a box of stuff gathering dust, that would give me no fun in return for my money...
like i said in my first post, there is no arguing about the GW HHHobby being expensive...
expensive is not necessarily a problem...
if the OP is no longer feeling like he gets his money worth, then the game/hobby starts to feel TOO expensive, which is where it becomes a problem...
it would suck to feel like you are no longer getting value out of something that you used to love...
jonolikespie wrote: I can buy a full sized Infinity army, all the dice I need, and templates and a tape measure for the same price as the core 40k rulebook.
Are people really going to try and tell me 40k isn't expensive, or that the whole hobby is expensive and GW is no different?
Yeah and the scales are vastly different. An infinity army is like 6-15 models. My squad of Firewarriors alone is 5.
jonolikespie wrote: I can buy a full sized Infinity army, all the dice I need, and templates and a tape measure for the same price as the core 40k rulebook.
Are people really going to try and tell me 40k isn't expensive, or that the whole hobby is expensive and GW is no different?
Yeah and the scales are vastly different. An infinity army is like 6-15 models. My squad of Firewarriors alone is 5.
And which of those is better is totally opinion. You might dislike having so few models on the table, I look a a 40k board and find it so cluttered that I have no idea how people play.
The part that is an objective cost comparison is where I can buy a whole army and everything I need to game with one system for the cost of the core rules (not even all the rules you need to by to play!) of the other.
Army sizes are irrelevant there, but that is exactly why 40k feels expensive.
jonolikespie wrote: I can buy a full sized Infinity army, all the dice I need, and templates and a tape measure for the same price as the core 40k rulebook.
Are people really going to try and tell me 40k isn't expensive, or that the whole hobby is expensive and GW is no different?
Yeah and the scales are vastly different. An infinity army is like 6-15 models. My squad of Firewarriors alone is 5.
And which of those is better is totally opinion. You might dislike having so few models on the table, I look a a 40k board and find it so cluttered that I have no idea how people play.
The part that is an objective cost comparison is where I can buy a whole army and everything I need to game with one system for the cost of the core rules (not even all the rules you need to by to play!) of the other.
Army sizes are irrelevant there, but that is exactly why 40k feels expensive.
I play wargame I'm all too used to clusters of squares moving around screens so a 40k table seems tame by comparison.
But the point remains that to play a full game of infinity with rules, an average number of models, templates and dice it costs SIGNIFICANTLY less than it does to do the same with 40k.
That is true. Or why Infinity feels cheaper. The effect works both ways. It is, but it feels way cheaper when it really isn't that super cheap of a hobby.
Azreal13 wrote: Because without some sort of structure, we just compare everything to a giant mountain made of diamonds and everything is cheap?
But there IS a structure. Most, if not all, of the comparisons I've seen involve hobbies and other "fun" expenses that normal non-billionaire people might actually have. When I'm comparing the cost of airplane rentals to the cost of 40k it's not because airplane rentals are the most expensive thing ever, it's because that's one of the things that is competing with 40k for my money.
Kilkrazy wrote: If I was Sir Richard Branson I could simply buy GW instead of running a space tourism company.
Does that make a single £22 Ad Mech Tech Priest Dominus infantry figure cheap compared to a compete 15mm army with 46 figures, priced at £22. for De Bellis Antiquitatis?
But why is it so important to compare miniatures to other miniatures instead of hobby expenses in general? That single infantry figure is going to take me 10+ hours to build and paint, and will almost certainly contribute to at least 10+ hours of gaming time. So that's about $1 per hour for the GW model, compared to $100+ per hour for an airplane rental. That pretty solidly puts even the GW model into the "ridiculously cheap" category, regardless of the fact that some other kit is even more ridiculously cheap. I'm not going to suddenly feel like spending 1% of the cost of my other hobby is "expensive" just because I could get it down to 0.5% if I changed games.
I completely agree with this.
Life isn't a choice between 26 different miniature-related hobby companies. It's a choice between doing things that you enjoy, and comparing the relative costs of those things with how rewarding the activities are. As Peregrine put it, a buck an hour is probably a decent start for figuring out what I can get out of GW stuff, plus I have something nice to keep afterwards that's potentially useful for years (decades, even). Are there other miniature wargaming and miniature modelling brands that are cheaper? Yes!
But at the end of the day, for most people with some kind of disposable income, all miniature wargaming hobbies are so cheap on the entertainment cost scale that the enjoyment factor -- whichever brand offers more entertainment -- matters a whole lot more, at least to me. Would I rather spend $5,000 on entertainment for a year or $500 on a hobby? Okay, I have to think about that. But do I want to spend $500 or $200? Well, if both are going to get me 500+ hours of entertainment, screw it; it's just whichever makes me happier, especially when it's broken down into increments of $50 and $20.
In fairness, there ARE hobbies that are cheaper than miniature wargaming, too. For example, you can spend next to nothing and get 10,000 hours on Diablo 3 or World of Warcraft. Or even Hearthstone, if you want to really torture yourself (technically, you get way more game play out of it if you don't spend any money ). There are even healthy things like hiking and biking that cost almost nothing (you need some initial basic equipment), and many sports that are nearly free to play. Or the local chess club. Or go an a walk on the beach with a nice girl or guy. Where budget is a really serious consideration, in most first-world nations, there's lots of leisure-time activities that are nearly-free.
Its not just wargamers with knowledge of the other cheaper wargaming companies who think that Games Workshop products are expensive, though.
When I'm talking about wargaming with other people, they inevitably ask how much it costs, and are flabbergasted by the answers. Family who buy me gifts are reluctant about the price - even when its a 'I'm buying $100 of gifts for you what do you want', they'd prefer to get $100 of clothes or computer games or wine than GW stuff because it seems too expensive. I actually did a kind of experiment on some relatives where I told them the cost of Malifaux / GW in alternating orders. People accepted the cost of Malifaux as reasonable independently of whether they'd seen the price of GW before or after. People just don't expect figures to cost that much.
They're exposed to plastic figures as cheap toys, plastic army men, action figures, model tanks. They're exposed to board games as Monopoly, Risk, Catan. They're exposed to strategy and roleplaying games on the computer.
To most people, those seem like the kind of things that provide roughly equivalent types of entertainment to GW products. They expect GW prices to be similar for what seems to be the same kind of thing.
People don't compare it to collecting real cars and planes because its they're not comparable aside from 'they're all discretionary spending'.
GW is especially egregious because it requires so many purchases to really work. To really play the game as intended you need 1000-2000pts of models, plus 2-3 very expensive rulebooks, plus a plethora of tools and scenery. You need to buy 4-5 of exactly the same kit to make a single viable unit, and 2-3 of the same unit to use in the army. So while one box of plastic dudesmen may cost you $50 and that seems reasonable, buying 15 of the same thing doesn't (especially with no bulk discounts). This is partially what makes Warmachine seem cheap by comparison to GW: except in some extreme Tier list examples and some older metal kits, buying a single box set gives you a full unit, that doesn't need to be added to, that you don't need to (and often can't) take multiples of.
Kilkrazy wrote: If I was Sir Richard Branson I could simply buy GW instead of running a space tourism company.
Does that make a single £22 Ad Mech Tech Priest Dominus infantry figure cheap compared to a compete 15mm army with 46 figures, priced at £22. for De Bellis Antiquitatis?
But why is it so important to compare miniatures to other miniatures instead of hobby expenses in general? That single infantry figure is going to take me 10+ hours to build and paint, and will almost certainly contribute to at least 10+ hours of gaming time. So that's about $1 per hour for the GW model, compared to $100+ per hour for an airplane rental. That pretty solidly puts even the GW model into the "ridiculously cheap" category, regardless of the fact that some other kit is even more ridiculously cheap. I'm not going to suddenly feel like spending 1% of the cost of my other hobby is "expensive" just because I could get it down to 0.5% if I changed games.
If you like cheese, when you go to a cheesemonger to buy some cheese, do you buy some cheese or do you instead go to a clothes shop and buy a new hat? And if you do, does your new hat taste as nice as the selection of cheeses you didn't spend the money on?
Kilkrazy wrote: If you like cheese, when you go to a cheesemonger to buy some cheese, do you buy some cheese or do you instead go to a clothes shop and buy a new hat? And if you do, does your new hat taste as nice as the selection of cheeses you didn't spend the money on?
What's your point? Of course you don't say "I want X" and then buy something completely different instead. But that doesn't change the fact that different hobbies are often competing for the same money, and "cheap" and "expensive" are often defined relative to how much you are spending on other things.
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Trasvi wrote: Its not just wargamers with knowledge of the other cheaper wargaming companies who think that Games Workshop products are expensive, though.
When I'm talking about wargaming with other people, they inevitably ask how much it costs, and are flabbergasted by the answers. Family who buy me gifts are reluctant about the price - even when its a 'I'm buying $100 of gifts for you what do you want', they'd prefer to get $100 of clothes or computer games or wine than GW stuff because it seems too expensive. I actually did a kind of experiment on some relatives where I told them the cost of Malifaux / GW in alternating orders. People accepted the cost of Malifaux as reasonable independently of whether they'd seen the price of GW before or after. People just don't expect figures to cost that much.
They're exposed to plastic figures as cheap toys, plastic army men, action figures, model tanks. They're exposed to board games as Monopoly, Risk, Catan. They're exposed to strategy and roleplaying games on the computer.
To most people, those seem like the kind of things that provide roughly equivalent types of entertainment to GW products. They expect GW prices to be similar for what seems to be the same kind of thing.
People don't compare it to collecting real cars and planes because its they're not comparable aside from 'they're all discretionary spending'.
I would argue that this has way more to do with non-gamers dismissing the entire gaming hobby as "stupid toys for children" rather than a reasonable and informed evaluation of prices.
Peregrine wrote: I would argue that this has way more to do with non-gamers dismissing the entire gaming hobby as "stupid toys for children" rather than a reasonable and informed evaluation of prices.
But the same people find Malifaux prices to be reasonable when 40k isn't. They might not understand my hobby, but they appreciate that it might cost some amount of money, and Malifaux fits in the reasonable range.
Like people here are talking about aircraft rental and scuba diving fees. I've never done those hobbies; I probably can't make a reasonable and informed decision about the prices. The amounts sound large to me, but they don't seem unreasonable for what you're getting if that's what you want to do. With a bit of thinking you can see where the money is going. Conversely, for GW products the amounts charged don't seem to have any basis in reality, and both wargamers and non-wargamers get that feel.
Kilkrazy wrote: If you like cheese, when you go to a cheesemonger to buy some cheese, do you buy some cheese or do you instead go to a clothes shop and buy a new hat? And if you do, does your new hat taste as nice as the selection of cheeses you didn't spend the money on?
What's your point? Of course you don't say "I want X" and then buy something completely different instead. But that doesn't change the fact that different hobbies are often competing for the same money, and "cheap" and "expensive" are often defined relative to how much you are spending on other things.
My point is that it's irrelevant that angling is cheaper per hour than GW, or that skydiving is more expensive. All three are hobbies, but GW is wargaming and realistically can only be compared with wargaming, because wargaming is something that all wargamers are interested in, and all wargamers aren't interested in rythmic gymnastics, four-in-hand coach driving, or electromicrography.
However, if we are to compare power boat racing with GW and DBA, GW is still a lot more expensive that DBA even though GW is a lot cheaper than power boat racing.
Kilkrazy wrote: My point is that it's irrelevant that angling is cheaper per hour than GW, or that skydiving is more expensive. All three are hobbies, but GW is wargaming and realistically can only be compared with wargaming, because wargaming is something that all wargamers are interested in, and all wargamers aren't interested in rythmic gymnastics, four-in-hand coach driving, or electromicrography.
However, if we are to compare power boat racing with GW and DBA, GW is still a lot more expensive that DBA even though GW is a lot cheaper than power boat racing.
But why does it matter so much if A is more expensive than B? If A costs $0.01 and B costs $0.05 they're both still "cheap" even though B is five times more expensive than B. What matters most for determining what a person considers "expensive" or "cheap" is how much that thing costs relative to the person's total income and expenses. And in that comparison things like airplane rentals, nights out drinking, etc, are entirely relevant because they set the standard for how much money a person is used to spending and where their "expensive" and "cheap" thresholds might be set.
Trasvi wrote: But the same people find Malifaux prices to be reasonable when 40k isn't. They might not understand my hobby, but they appreciate that it might cost some amount of money, and Malifaux fits in the reasonable range.
Like people here are talking about aircraft rental and scuba diving fees. I've never done those hobbies; I probably can't make a reasonable and informed decision about the prices. The amounts sound large to me, but they don't seem unreasonable for what you're getting if that's what you want to do. With a bit of thinking you can see where the money is going. Conversely, for GW products the amounts charged don't seem to have any basis in reality, and both wargamers and non-wargamers get that feel.
On the other hand I've had non-gamers make similar "it's so expensive for a silly toy" arguments about X-Wing, a game which is significantly cheaper than GW games. I don't think opinions of outsiders with no real knowledge of the hobby count for very much.
But why does it matter so much if A is more expensive than B? If A costs $0.01 and B costs $0.05 they're both still "cheap" even though B is five times more expensive than B. What matters most for determining what a person considers "expensive" or "cheap" is how much that thing costs relative to the person's total income and expenses. And in that comparison things like airplane rentals, nights out drinking, etc, are entirely relevant because they set the standard for how much money a person is used to spending and where their "expensive" and "cheap" thresholds might be set.
I am used to playing with sticks in my back yard, I get infinite hours of enjoyment per dollar, GW is ludicrously expensive and anyone who says otherwise should just shut up
agnosto wrote: Kronk, I could buy a 20-man dfg eisenkhern stormtrooper kit AND accessory kit for less than the price of that GWtac marine kit.
That's the stormtrooper kit and another 4 stories for the accessories.
Thanks for the reply, Agnosto. While I don't care for the eisenkhern look, they are one of the few kits with lots of options for a decent price out there.
As I said, there are a few other companies that make a few good kits. I never disputed that. However, I challenged MrMoustaffa on this quote and have not gotten an adequate response from anyone.
"But don't lie to people or yourself and think GW is cheap or reasonable when literally every company making plastic kits that are even remotely in the same vein are beating them in price or quality, or both."
Azreal13 wrote: Because without some sort of structure, we just compare everything to a giant mountain made of diamonds and everything is cheap?
But there IS a structure. Most, if not all, of the comparisons I've seen involve hobbies and other "fun" expenses that normal non-billionaire people might actually have. When I'm comparing the cost of airplane rentals to the cost of 40k it's not because airplane rentals are the most expensive thing ever, it's because that's one of the things that is competing with 40k for my money.
This is a really poor argument and frankly I expect better from you, and I'd already addressed it in the post you quoted, you just decided not to include it in your response, so let me restate it.
Value has no bearing on price or one's ability to afford that price. It's a personal, subjective, judgement about whether the money paid provides an adequate return on whatever criteria have been applied to the purchase, which is, again, largely subjective.
So, feel free to try and compare playing 40K with anything you like, but unless you're going to propose some method of quantifying and objectifying a hugely subjective factor (the question of is it worth it?) then, as I said, it's a waste of time.
Or you can take the stance that drawing comparisons with fundamentally similar products is much more straightforward, albeit still unable to answer why someone may feel £200 odd for a Fellblade is worth it, whereas £25 or so for a Rhino isn't for others, the answer to that, as already mentioned in my post that you quoted and truncated, is simply down to a very personal judgement on ROI of both time and money.
40K starts to feel expensive if you're not enjoying playing the game as much as you used to.
Azreal13 wrote: 40K starts to feel expensive if you're not enjoying playing the game as much as you used to.
Thread closed here?
If you love something VERY much, price is pretty much no object until you start shorting yourself on food and make poor lifestyle choices.
In this case the enjoyment gained with 40k product is not worth the money compared to other interests the money could be spent.
Yep, pretty darn subjective.
X-wing and Armada FEEL less expensive to me than 40k... am I wrong?
I get more fun per dollar out of those than 40k.
Regardless of the actual price, most other hobbies are immediately accessible. Books, puzzles, video games, movies, etc. etc. -- there's the one or two initial purchases and then you're able to dive right in. 40k/Miniature Wargaming, you got to buy the tiny little models (individually!), then the paints and brushes and glue (and perhaps primer and basing materials and sealers...), then the main rules and army-specific rules. Then you got to devote extra time and effort to figure out just what you got yourself into...
Another angle here is that other hobbies are sold in more places, so you can better look for deals if not find it for "free" (libraries, rental stores, etc.) -- compare to GW who won't let other online stores display prices!
So, feel free to try and compare playing 40K with anything you like, but unless you're going to propose some method of quantifying and objectifying a hugely subjective factor (the question of is it worth it?) then, as I said, it's a waste of time.
That's exactly how I look at it, though. 40kand almost every other brand of wargame or miniature is so affordable to adults earning a wage that relative to most other hobbies that the price hardly matters. Unless you're talking about exceptional pieces like Smaug, large Forge World models, or large resin boutique models (none of which are that common in wargaming or modelling), the hobby as a whole is something that will cost in the order of magnitude of a few hundred bucks yearly.
Only for a miniscule population will the miniature hobby ever cost a few thousand bucks every year, and for those people, they enjoy the hobby so much that cost becomes irrelevant.
If you take out the word "wargaming" or "40k" and simply ask, "Would you spend $500 a year on a hobby you enjoy and expect to spend anywhere from a hundred to several hours on a year on?"
My answer would be most certainly be YES, whether it was camping or Xbox or wargaming.
If I had to modify my answer and say that I was only going to spend 50 hours or 100 hours on the activity, however, I might want to spend less. In which case, I might play a PC game instead of invest in an Xbox, or buy a game like Malifaux or Infinity instead of 40k.
40K starts to feel expensive if you're not enjoying playing the game as much as you used to.
Again, taking out hobby or 40k, I think of it as: if I don't enjoy something or don't play it because of changes in the activity or my own priorities, I get less value out of it. At the end of the day though, I'll also spend less money on it, and if I really don't enjoy it, I won't spend any money on it. Therefore, while I get less value per dollar, I'm spending fewer dollars, or none at all. It doesn't diminish what I got out of it in the past, though.
So even on things that I don't really partake in anymore, I won't be upset that I spent money on it in the past, as long as I got my value out of it already in the past. Taking camping as an example, I don't do any camping anymore, and I just have camping gear gathering dust. But I'm not mad that I bought a $300 tent or sleeping bags, or propane burner. When I look at models and wargames, I've gotten a TON of time and joy out of money I've spent. I mean, tens of thousands of hours.
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Rootbeard wrote: Regardless of the actual price, most other hobbies are immediately accessible. Books, puzzles, video games, movies, etc. etc. -- there's the one or two initial purchases and then you're able to dive right in. 40k/Miniature Wargaming, you got to buy the tiny little models (individually!), then the paints and brushes and glue (and perhaps primer and basing materials and sealers...), then the main rules and army-specific rules. Then you got to devote extra time and effort to figure out just what you got yourself into...
It depends on what you want out of a hobby. If you're expecting to buy some stuff and jump into a game, 40k is probably a terrible hobby. On the other hand, if you want to spend hundreds of hours planning and modelling armies and you want to play some games with them, 40k is probably going to be an awesome hobby.
All the time and effort in figuring out what I want and in modelling the army just the way I want it is the major attraction to the hobby for me.
In the same way, there are people on the forum who legitimately don't like games like 40k because their army will, by design, never be complete (at least, not for more than a few years at most). On the other hand, this is again one the things that make me happy -- the armies are basically something I can work on and grow as long as the hobby amuses me.
40k is more than just playing. If someony is only interested in playing the game on a competive level then 40k is probably overprized and don't deliver what u'd exxpect from competive playing.
If the time of assembling and painting the models is considered as a part of the hobby just for the sake of enjoying this activities then 40k becomes cheaper because then ist not only the gametime itself that adds to the value.
Other people also add story writing and more to their hobby. which also enriches the experience.
All these points i mentioned have! to be in mind to answer the OP question. Simply stating " it fells so because it is" is a dumb way of answering this question. It gest even so far that it doen't provide the answer at all.
Just because something is expensive doesn't mean its recognized that way. As long as anyone i willing to pay the prize and thinkt " yes its worth that amount of money" it doesn't feel expensive.
I could buy any crapp for just 5credits and would feel cheated because what i expected to get is much less than the experience i have. on the other side if i get something thats very good in any way then said 5 credits would be a great investment.
The same pattern applies to 40k and the question that is found in the OP.
So one of the reasons 40k FEELS so expensive is that a lot of people focus their interest on the game itself. as 40k is at best a medicore game rule wise and has massive ballance issues between its armies its clear that the prices GW throw at its customers seem to be to expensive. In addition the rjule books are not cheap and have a short live time.
X-Wing for example delivers Models that are ready to play and its also much cheaper credit wise. this makes a much better ratio money/time investmenr per game experience.
But is also lacks a lot of the stuff that belongs to 40k,
So it comes down to what any one expects from 40k as a hobby. Its more than just playing. Depending on the focus each one has it can feel to expensive or not. there is no right or wrong there. The only important thing is to recognize the difference between a dumb numbers contest on wich hobby/ system is the best and the Feelings and subjective value an individual gives to each hobby/ system.
I don't want to pay a lot of money for rules that suck when I already play games with free rules that don't suck
I get most of my 40k second hand because its massively cheaper and I like to trade, but the time it takes to scrape away someone's poor workmanship massively detracts from the fun of building and painting my own brand new kits
Star Wars is a much more entry level nerd IP and the premier miniatures games for Star Wars (namely X-wing) are much easier to learn and teach as well as being easily competitive at higher levels and priced as to facilitate frequent updates of new ships that change the meta but don't break the bank
And finally, something I noticed with Infinity and Maelstrom's Edge that is missing from 40k: character. If I want to play a combined arms, company or battalion level battle, with faceless mooks, I'll play something at a different, smaller scale, like Dropzone Commander, Epic40k or Flames of War. I play 28mm games because each dude is a hero (or villain) all to himself. I should feel like I'm building a close knit squad with nicknames and personal lives rather than fielding 10 ranks of space marines. The line is blurred a little bit with horde armies, but the principle is that if I spend $50 on 10 space marines that cost 5% of my army allowance and they get blown off the field before they do anything, all that time and effort I put into making them characterful and unique is a waste of time. I may as well literally or figuratively production line paint them and put them all on a single base to make moving and removing them easier, and then, I might as well just be playing 15mm or less
InB4, "Something something something, but they're not Space Marines so they don't my aesthetic, something something something..."
Go look at what I posted. That has nothing to do with this discussion.
I wasn't referring to you. If you've been on Dakka long enough you'll know exactly which individual(s) that comment is directed at.
hey, that's my line!!!
what is wrong with wanting the GW Space Marine aesthetic???
is it any less valid than wanting the GW aesthetic for the Eldar, Dark Eldar, or any thing else that Jes Goodwin has had a hand in designing the look of???
if you are going to direct a dismissive comment at someone in particular concerning their preferences, you should at least have the courage of your convictions, and call them out specifically...
Kilkrazy wrote: I wouldn't call watching films a hobby, it's an entertainment or a pastime.
If you seriously watch a lot of films and write criticism of them, perhaps it's becoming a hobby.
If you make films it definitely becomes a hobby.
While I agree with you, films (television, movies, etc.) compete for the same dollars for a lot of people. For people with budgetary constraints, it's a movie on Friday or a box of models.
Trasvi wrote: But the same people find Malifaux prices to be reasonable when 40k isn't. They might not understand my hobby, but they appreciate that it might cost some amount of money, and Malifaux fits in the reasonable range.
Like people here are talking about aircraft rental and scuba diving fees. I've never done those hobbies; I probably can't make a reasonable and informed decision about the prices. The amounts sound large to me, but they don't seem unreasonable for what you're getting if that's what you want to do. With a bit of thinking you can see where the money is going. Conversely, for GW products the amounts charged don't seem to have any basis in reality, and both wargamers and non-wargamers get that feel.
On the other hand I've had non-gamers make similar "it's so expensive for a silly toy" arguments about X-Wing, a game which is significantly cheaper than GW games. I don't think opinions of outsiders with no real knowledge of the hobby count for very much.
Of course their opinion is important! The 'outsiders with no real knowledge' are the new incoming customers. If they feel turned off by the price, GW loses a potential customer. The game and price point has to make sense to a larger number of new people than it currently does.
Trasvi wrote: But the same people find Malifaux prices to be reasonable when 40k isn't. They might not understand my hobby, but they appreciate that it might cost some amount of money, and Malifaux fits in the reasonable range.
Like people here are talking about aircraft rental and scuba diving fees. I've never done those hobbies; I probably can't make a reasonable and informed decision about the prices. The amounts sound large to me, but they don't seem unreasonable for what you're getting if that's what you want to do. With a bit of thinking you can see where the money is going. Conversely, for GW products the amounts charged don't seem to have any basis in reality, and both wargamers and non-wargamers get that feel.
On the other hand I've had non-gamers make similar "it's so expensive for a silly toy" arguments about X-Wing, a game which is significantly cheaper than GW games. I don't think opinions of outsiders with no real knowledge of the hobby count for very much.
Of course their opinion is important! The 'outsiders with no real knowledge' are the new incoming customers. If they feel turned off by the price, GW loses a potential customer. The game and price point has to make sense to a larger number of new people than it currently does.
That...is an incredibly interesting way to look at it
Trasvi wrote: Of course their opinion is important! The 'outsiders with no real knowledge' are the new incoming customers. If they feel turned off by the price, GW loses a potential customer. The game and price point has to make sense to a larger number of new people than it currently does.
Of course, price matters; at some point, even real fans can't afford product, and that excludes customers. And when selecting a new hobby, the general price range (or perceived spend) does matter. But I think there is a legitimate debate to be had about whether, if price were removed as a primary barrier (for instance, if the prices were 1990 prices adjusted for inflation), whether the number of young hobbyists (wargamers and modelers) would dramatically increase.
I'm not so sure. There's a lot of other things to occupy their time, and I really haven't met that many young people who are interested in building a model, regardless of price. They'd just rather play CoD, WoW, Neverwinter, Marvel Heroes, etc. In the hobby/gaming shop side of things, more MtG and Yu-Gi-Oh than anything. At a very minimum, compared to 1990, there are more things that someone who is 10-16 can choose to occupy their time with today.
