I'm sure we've all read through a codex and seen an option that simply didn't seem to belong there.


For me it is Thousand Son Aspiring Sorcerers (as in the squad leaders) being able to take Gift of Mutation... Didn't Ahriman's Rubric fix that!?

Post the options you think make no sense! Refute/rationalise the options other people think make no sense!

AoBF in C:CSM gives rage, but requires MoK to take, which gives rage.

 MarsNZ wrote:
AoBF in C:CSM gives rage, but requires MoK to take, which gives rage.

That's 100% more rage!

The one FSE formation that allows you to fire all your Skyrays missiles in one turn after moving. They can already do that. -_- Talk about 150% useless.

Stick chucka's for ork transports.

It gives pasengers Stick bombz if they assault out of the transport, but they aleady have stick bombz all the time. Except for grots but nobody is assaulting with those.

 MarsNZ wrote:
AoBF in C:CSM gives rage, but requires MoK to take, which gives rage.

If you take a Daemon Prince, it will get Daemon of Khorne, not Mark of Khorne and thus not Rage. So it makes sense for a DP.

Stikkbomb Chukka is an upgrade for Ork vehicles that allows disembarking units have stikkbombs for the turn. All Orks except grots have stikkbombs by default.

Red paint on ork fliers

Why would you ever want them to go +1" on flat out moves :\


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 Vankraken wrote:
Stikkbomb Chukka is an upgrade for Ork vehicles that allows disembarking units have stikkbombs for the turn. All Orks except grots have stikkbombs by default.

My stick bombz are faster

The Dark Apostle can take VotLW for free which gives him Hatred: Space Marines despite the fact he has zealot. Feels like a fluffy thing to me but that doesnt seem like GW to me.

From the new Relics in Curse of the Wulfen;
1. The Unending Grimoire - Can only be taken by a Herald of Tzeentch.
If your Warlord generates ALL their psychic powers from the Lore of Tzeentch, they instead know all 6 spells.

The issue; The rules for Daemons generating their powers from the God specific lores were never changed. Thus, a model can only generate up to half their powers from their own God's spell lore...
Meaning, the item is 100% unusable by a LoC Warlord (as he comes base with Mastery Lv2!). Hence, you are forced to take a Lv1 Tzherald as your Warlord, who while knowing all 7 spells in the new Tzeentch lore, can only ever cast 1 spell/turn!

Hooray for item that has 0 synergies!


2. Whips of Agony - Can only be taken by an Exalted Alluress. (the chick who drives those Slaany chariots)
Any model that suffers any unsaved wounds from attacks by this weapon cannot make attacks for the rest of the Fight sub-phase.

The issue; The new Relics can only be taken by anyone who can take a 30pts Exalted Reward. Sadly, an Exalted Alluress is limited to taking up to just 20pts worth of Rewards, meaning that legally, she can never take this relic which is limited just to her!

Farsight Enclaves having access to Ethereals, that was the whole point why he left the Empire in the first place!

Lack of Lasgun/Hellgun options on Guard and Stormtrooper Sergeants.
Removal of the Autotargeting System on the Hydra Flak Tank. Seriously, the one and only friggin' advantage that the Hydra had over any other AA option
Orders having a tiny, tiny radius and Vox-Casters being such a hefty points cost that does not allow you to ignore that range.

But the #1 codex option that makes no sense?
Early-Warning Override being 5 points.

All ork vehicles may take Stikkbomb launchas.

Which give stikkbombs to any unit on the vehicle.

Except all ork models have stikkbombs.

Flesh tearers using BA Hq's including named ones : \

the_scotsman wrote:
All ork vehicles may take Stikkbomb launchas.

Which give stikkbombs to any unit on the vehicle.

Except all ork models have stikkbombs.

It's also another weapon so it's not totally useless.

If you really want a WTF rule in the Ork Codex, Mad Dok has a Cybork body (FnP 6+) as well as Dok's Tools (FnP 5+ for himself and rest of unit)

Space marine command squad... all the veterans can take a stormshield but if you upgrade one of them to a champion, the best warrior in the company, he only gets a combat shield. Best fighter not allowed to have the best gear.... makes sense right?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Lack of Lasgun/Hellgun options on Guard and Stormtrooper Sergeants.

That's something I really like about the Elysian list - sarge can take a rifle.

 gmaleron wrote:
Farsight Enclaves having access to Ethereals, that was the whole point why he left the Empire in the first place!

This thing has puzzled me for ages, just like why Spaces Wolves and Black templars are battle brothers with Grey knights..

SM scout bikers come with shotguns. And TL’d bolters on the relentless bikes. Even if you replace the bolters with the AGL, it’s still better in ever way then the shotgun.

Unless you are intentionally sandbagging your damage you will never shoot it. The only reason to have them is the boost to coolness that shotguns give.

Daemons losing Eternal Warrior.

A daemon is literally eternal, as in the 40k setting they can only be banished, not killed.

Actually, any Chaos Character that don't have Eternal Warrior. Especially Kharn, who was actually killed at one point and revived. And Lucius too.

Another one is Bloodcrushers having no armor whatsoever. It's a freaking angry metal rhino, how does it have no armor?

For a non-chaos one, the Necron Destroyer's Gauss Cannon. It's always had four barrels but it went from 3 shots to 2 shots. Even if it was nerfed, it should have had 4 shots! It has four barrels!

The Gauss Cannon has four chambers, but there is only one barrel producing any shots.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Farsight Enclaves having access to Ethereals, that was the whole point why he left the Empire in the first place!

This thing has puzzled me for ages, just like why Spaces Wolves and Black templars are battle brothers with Grey knights..

The Black Templar fluff has been "psykers suck. Except for GKs, theyre cool" for a couple decades now.

Grey Knights should definitely have a different alliance chart. That's definitely something 6th did correct.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Daemons losing Eternal Warrior.

A daemon is literally eternal, as in the 40k setting they can only be banished, not killed.

Actually, any Chaos Character that don't have Eternal Warrior. Especially Kharn, who was actually killed at one point and revived. And Lucius too.

Another one is Bloodcrushers having no armor whatsoever. It's a freaking angry metal rhino, how does it have no armor?

For a non-chaos one, the Necron Destroyer's Gauss Cannon. It's always had four barrels but it went from 3 shots to 2 shots. Even if it was nerfed, it should have had 4 shots! It has four barrels!

Daemons can be killed, they can suffer True Death whereby they are destroyed inmall ways. Usually it requires some kind of Saint's sharpened femur and the daemon's True Name. M'kar the Reborn was Truely Killed during his last invasion on Ultramar last I checked. And, the idea was that Grey Knights, all wielding Force Weapons, can't use the main feature of their weapons on their prime target that the weapon is designed to kill. Hence why EW was removed.

 Deadshot wrote:
Daemons can be killed, they can suffer True Death whereby they are destroyed inmall ways. Usually it requires some kind of Saint's sharpened femur and the daemon's True Name. M'kar the Reborn was Truely Killed during his last invasion on Ultramar last I checked. And, the idea was that Grey Knights, all wielding Force Weapons, can't use the main feature of their weapons on their prime target that the weapon is designed to kill. Hence why EW was removed.

The fact that they actually had the rule at one point and that GW had to come up with an explanation just shows that they backtracked on it because otherwise it would have made Daemons powerful.

Plus, other justifications for other rule-oddities exists, like Farsight technically having some Ethereal advisors just before he broke off from the empire being the reason why he can still take Ethereals in his army. Doesn't make it any less weird, especially when you have to voodoo shark it.

EDIT: On the subject of the Destroyer's shots, at least now having 2 shots makes some sense. When a gun has 4 chambers/barrels but only produce 3 shots a turn, that's when I go wtf.

Experiment 626, read the relics text again. It only says "daemons that are able to take rewards" they do not need access to an exalted reward to take the new relics. So the exalted Alluress can take the whip.



Also it's my belief that these psychic tables replace the old ones as they all contain the same spells + new ones and the obvious intent regarding that relic and the new psyker tables is to NOT carry that restriction forward.

I haven't seen the relic's cost, but according to everyone else, it's not a restriction of whether or not the Alluress can take Exalted Rewards, but that the Alluress can only take 20 points of rewards, which is LESS than the cost of the relic.

Who cares? The relic doesn't count towards reward cost, like it says in the text. The artifacts aren't rewards either, they're artifacts and the wording keeps them from being restricted by the "up to 20 pts of daemonic rewards" text. She can take the whip and 20 pts of rewards if you want.

Furthermore 626, a lvl 1 psyker can cast as many powers as he knows until your warp charge pool is depleted. There is no restriction saying he can only cast one power if he's a ml1 psyker.

dsmith10 wrote:
Space marine command squad... all the veterans can take a stormshield but if you upgrade one of them to a champion, the best warrior in the company, he only gets a combat shield. Best fighter not allowed to have the best gear.... makes sense right?

Depending on how you look at it, that is a blessing and a curse. +1A is good, but with only a power sword and 3+/6++ to save you...

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I haven't seen the relic's cost, but according to everyone else, it's not a restriction of whether or not the Alluress can take Exalted Rewards, but that the Alluress can only take 20 points of rewards, which is LESS than the cost of the relic.

Which doesn't matter becasue relics don't use up the points allotment for rewards

Again, I haven't seen the book, but that's what I've been hearing.

nareik wrote:
I'm sure we've all read through a codex and seen an option that simply didn't seem to belong there.


For me it is Thousand Son Aspiring Sorcerers (as in the squad leaders) being able to take Gift of Mutation... Didn't Ahriman's Rubric fix that!?

Post the options you think make no sense! Refute/rationalise the options other people think make no sense!

It makes since considering many aspiring sorcerers came to the thousand sons after the rubric. The thousands sons are nothing but dust in armour and any tzeench sorcerer can make use of them. It's also kind of in their name, they are aspiring sorcerers.


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 gmaleron wrote:
Farsight Enclaves having access to Ethereals, that was the whole point why he left the Empire in the first place!

I believe it was supposed to be the last few battles farsight had before he split off into the enclave. Formations fix this as the farsight detachment cannot have ethereal's.

 Frozocrone wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
All ork vehicles may take Stikkbomb launchas.

Which give stikkbombs to any unit on the vehicle.

Except all ork models have stikkbombs.

It's also another weapon so it's not totally useless.

If you really want a WTF rule in the Ork Codex, Mad Dok has a Cybork body (FnP 6+) as well as Dok's Tools (FnP 5+ for himself and rest of unit)

Fluff. He has those items in his fluff, so that's what the model is equipped with. It's the same reason Lysander has three Invulnerable saves.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Experiment 626, read the relics text again. It only says "daemons that are able to take rewards" they do not need access to an exalted reward to take the new relics. So the exalted Alluress can take the whip.

The exact wording is "Demons of Slaanesh that have the option to take Exalted Rewards can also take a Hellforged Artefact of Slaanesh, paying the points shown below. These don't count towards the points spent on Demonic Rewards, but a model can't have more than one Hellforged Artefact (of any type). Only one of each of these items may be chosen per army."

So yes, RAW the Exalted Alluress cant take the Whips of Agony because she is only allowed to take Lesser and Greater rewards. However the intent of the rule is blindingly obvious (as the Exalted Alluress is the only model with permission to take the Whips of Agony in the first place) so I can't see anyone in their right mind not allowing it.

Replacing your twin linked snark missile system with a twin linked burst canon on a skyray/hammerhead. The missle system has more range, same number of shots, same str same ap and also ignores cover. The two cost the same.

 GoonBandito wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Experiment 626, read the relics text again. It only says "daemons that are able to take rewards" they do not need access to an exalted reward to take the new relics. So the exalted Alluress can take the whip.

The exact wording is "Demons of Slaanesh that have the option to take Exalted Rewards can also take a Hellforged Artefact of Slaanesh, paying the points shown below. These don't count towards the points spent on Demonic Rewards, but a model can't have more than one Hellforged Artefact (of any type). Only one of each of these items may be chosen per army."

So yes, RAW the Exalted Alluress cant take the Whips of Agony because she is only allowed to take Lesser and Greater rewards. However the intent of the rule is blindingly obvious (as the Exalted Alluress is the only model with permission to take the Whips of Agony in the first place) so I can't see anyone in their right mind not allowing it.

Any organised event, such as any kind of tournament, would have to specifically FAQ that in their rules pack.
Also, any opponent who insists on playing RAW is well within their right to call you out on it.

Sure it may be a dick move, (c'mon, the whip is only Str.User/ap5!), but it's GW's fault for not proof reading and knowing their own damn rules!

Same deal with Daemons generating our new Psychic powers. CotW doesn't actively replace the rules in our codex regarding psychic power generation. So, despite now having a 'true' spell lore for each God, RAW we can still only generate up to half our powers from the God specific lores.
Again, any and all organised events will have to FAQ the issue.

I'm sure that most sensible folk in friendly games would easily overlook these glaring & hugely obvious mistakes, but Tournaments are an entirely different story.

@GoonBandito

My book says daemonic, not exalted. I have the scions of the warp booklet. In it, all of the god specific artifacts are worded the way you said, but have "daemonic rewards" instead of "exalted rewards" typed there.

Maybe it's different in the book you have.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
@GoonBandito

My book says daemonic, not exalted. I have the scions of the warp booklet. In it, all of the god specific artifacts are worded the way you said, but have "daemonic rewards" instead of "exalted rewards" typed there.

Maybe it's different in the book you have.

The Curse of the Wulfen book specifically says "Exalted Rewards". (same text used for all 4 Gods' relic tables)

Looks like GW put a hint of actual effort into the SE stuff, and left huge glaring typo(s) in the basic version.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
@GoonBandito

My book says daemonic, not exalted. I have the scions of the warp booklet. In it, all of the god specific artifacts are worded the way you said, but have "daemonic rewards" instead of "exalted rewards" typed there.

Maybe it's different in the book you have.

Which book do you have??

Edit: oh I actually read your post; is that the booklet that came in the Grimoire Edition?

It's the booklet that came with my buddy's special edition curse of the wulfen thing for space wolves. Says scions of the warp on it.

asmodais blades of reason who is this supposed to be used on exactly when he has a power maul? objectively speaking its one of the reasons hes the most useless hq in the game from any codex

 ionusx wrote:
asmodais blades of reason who is this supposed to be used on exactly when he has a power maul? objectively speaking its one of the reasons hes the most useless hq in the game from any codex

If the Blades didn't have Specialist Weapon, they'd still be junk but less bad at least.

I remember a time when you could trade out heavy bolters for sonic blasters for free.... Theme or not, such a bad idea.

Despite the fact that all options in an IG infantry platoon have obsec if taken in a CAD, an emperor's shield platoon with 170+ infantry models do not get obsec.

The Priest in the Inquisition Codex can exchange his CC weapon... for a chainsword.

At least it's a free upgrade.

Its more of a modeling perspective than codex, but I cringe a little every time I see a Necron head on a trophy rack. Since last I checked when Necrons lose a battle every little bit of Necron body, weapon, and tech is phased out and disappears.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Its more of a modeling perspective than codex, but I cringe a little every time I see a Necron head on a trophy rack. Since last I checked when Necrons lose a battle every little bit of Necron body, weapon, and tech is phased out and disappears.

If you destroy them hard and fast enough, it can prevent them from phasing out. I recall there was an example of this happening in the Soul Drinkers novels where they crushed a Necron.

Being able to boast about having killed a Necron hard enough that it stayed dead would be something trophy rack worthy.

And I would like to add that my Chaos vehicles came with an impaled Necron head as part of the kit.

Daemons of Nurgle (such as possessed) can take an icon of Nurgle for 10 points and gain... Fear... That they already have because they're Daemons.

Fearless units (if memory serves, such as possessed) can take the banner of vengeance for 25 points which grants, you guessed it, fearless.

Mark of Slannesh (+1 initiative) on Obliterators who can only ever have powerfists for 1 point per model.

Ahriman can't take Divination despite the fact that he's the most powerful of the corvidae and is shown to use divination powers repeatedly in his novels.

The stupidity just doesn't end in the CSM codex

 the Signless wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Its more of a modeling perspective than codex, but I cringe a little every time I see a Necron head on a trophy rack. Since last I checked when Necrons lose a battle every little bit of Necron body, weapon, and tech is phased out and disappears.

If you destroy them hard and fast enough, it can prevent them from phasing out. I recall there was an example of this happening in the Soul Drinkers novels where they crushed a Necron.

Being able to boast about having killed a Necron hard enough that it stayed dead would be something trophy rack worthy.

Yep, there are exceptions.
Like everything 40k, the phasing isn't fool-proof and at times fail. if you want another example of necron tech failing, look at flayed ones.



Back to senseless rules.
Mutilators, an assault unit, that is slow and purposeful? what purpose are they full of exactly?

 Drasius wrote:
Daemons of Nurgle (such as possessed) can take an icon of Nurgle for 10 points and gain... Fear... That they already have because they're Daemons.

Fearless units (if memory serves, such as possessed) can take the banner of vengeance for 25 points which grants, you guessed it, fearless.

Mark of Slannesh (+1 initiative) on Obliterators who can only ever have powerfists for 1 point per model.

Ahriman can't take Divination despite the fact that he's the most powerful of the corvidae and is shown to use divination powers repeatedly in his novels.

The stupidity just doesn't end in the CSM codex

I agree with the underlying point, however there is a very small degree of sense in some of the things you mention:

Well, icons do give +1 combat resolution, so its not like 10/25 points for absolutely nothing.

Initiative will improve blind tests (and maybe running away from combat, which takes precedent here, statline i or unwieldy i?)... plus MoS is super cheap on oblits.

I like to think Thousand Sons don't divine properly, they just receive a bunch of confusing/misleading lies and half truths from daemons/tzeentch/chaos, which is how they ended up on the side of the Traitors instead of remaining Loyal. They got duped, big time! My personal headcanon though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Back to senseless rules.
Mutilators, an assault unit, that is slow and purposeful? what purpose are they full of exactly?

I like to pretend they spend a lot of time stopping to flex, pose and show of their megastacked frames.

At least with Mutilators you don't need to decide between running or hail mary charges! So many times I've had a mutilator make a long charge, which I would never have declared if he could have ran. That said, I did once have one die to dark eldar warriors overwatch (1st wound was taken when deepstriking in, second on overwatch) when trying a long charge, so there is still some cost/benefit analysis.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Who cares?

Furthermore 626, a lvl 1 psyker can cast as many powers as he knows until your warp charge pool is depleted. There is no restriction saying he can only cast one power if he's a ml1 psyker.

This is GW's logic.

Plasma pistols in Chaos Space Marine squads. They don't beat meltaguns in any respect, and are worse in most - while costing more.

I'm noticing a LOT of chaos issues here...

In 6th edition abaddon had an FAQ that he always rerolled spawnhood and demon prince on the boon table, with a subtext that he could never be either of these units.

7th edition comes out and they remove this rule for what I would guess as a slap to all csm players.

Now boon of mutation for tzeentch is utterly useless (I used to use it on abaddon in 6th all the time if I got it.)

 Hedgehog wrote:
Plasma pistols in Chaos Space Marine squads. They don't beat meltaguns in any respect, and are worse in most - while costing more.

I'm noticing a LOT of chaos issues here...

Actually, pistols being overcosted gak applies to every single marine codex, and not unique to the spiky ones.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Its more of a modeling perspective than codex, but I cringe a little every time I see a Necron head on a trophy rack. Since last I checked when Necrons lose a battle every little bit of Necron body, weapon, and tech is phased out and disappears.

If there's one thing we can say for sure about Necron technology, it's that it certainly doesn't work 100% of the time all the time.

And while we're on Necrons, it was the post earlier about Destroyers that make no sense. For one thing, it's cannon only has one barrel, so the whole complaint is moot in the first place. It does have four of those energy rods that the old school necrons guns had, but given that they all feed into the one barrel, the reasonable assumption is that they all combine for extra boom.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
For a non-chaos one, the Necron Destroyer's Gauss Cannon. It's always had four barrels but it went from 3 shots to 2 shots. Even if it was nerfed, it should have had 4 shots! It has four barrels!

The original Destroyer had one barrel and one energy chamber :p

Jaxler wrote:Replacing your twin linked snark missile system with a twin linked burst canon on a skyray/hammerhead. The missle system has more range, same number of shots, same str same ap and also ignores cover. The two cost the same.

Burst Cannon looks cooler. That's the benefit.

Hedgehog wrote:Plasma pistols in Chaos Space Marine squads. They don't beat meltaguns in any respect, and are worse in most - while costing more.

I'm noticing a LOT of chaos issues here...

Yeah, but you can swap your bolter for a plasma pistol, have a plasma pistol and a bolt pistol and a CCW, and voila, now you can use Cypher!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
For a non-chaos one, the Necron Destroyer's Gauss Cannon. It's always had four barrels but it went from 3 shots to 2 shots. Even if it was nerfed, it should have had 4 shots! It has four barrels!

The original Destroyer had one barrel and one energy chamber :p

Jaxler wrote:Replacing your twin linked snark missile system with a twin linked burst canon on a skyray/hammerhead. The missle system has more range, same number of shots, same str same ap and also ignores cover. The two cost the same.

Burst Cannon looks cooler. That's the benefit.

Hedgehog wrote:Plasma pistols in Chaos Space Marine squads. They don't beat meltaguns in any respect, and are worse in most - while costing more.

I'm noticing a LOT of chaos issues here...

Yeah, but you can swap your bolter for a plasma pistol, have a plasma pistol and a bolt pistol and a CCW, and voila, now you can use Cypher!

Having two pistols lets you fire both. Or have the extra attack in CC

 Konrax wrote:
In 6th edition abaddon had an FAQ that he always rerolled spawnhood and demon prince on the boon table, with a subtext that he could never be either of these units.

7th edition comes out and they remove this rule for what I would guess as a slap to all csm players.

Now boon of mutation for tzeentch is utterly useless (I used to use it on abaddon in 6th all the time if I got it.)

Actually they removed it because they added it to his rules in the digital dataslate he got

Codex inquisition:

Inquisitorial weapons, the Plasma Pistol costs 15 points whilst the Plasma Gun costs 10.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Codex inquisition:

Inquisitorial weapons, the Plasma Pistol costs 15 points whilst the Plasma Gun costs 10.

+1 attack in CC and is assault weapon. Not really justifying the price but there is an advantage to the Pistol

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
In 6th edition abaddon had an FAQ that he always rerolled spawnhood and demon prince on the boon table, with a subtext that he could never be either of these units.

7th edition comes out and they remove this rule for what I would guess as a slap to all csm players.

Now boon of mutation for tzeentch is utterly useless (I used to use it on abaddon in 6th all the time if I got it.)

Actually they removed it because they added it to his rules in the digital dataslate he got

Thats interesting! I don't have that dataslate however, so if my Abaddon ever hulks out he will be a daemon of all four gods, meaning he can't run, but if he could run he would run an extra 3 inches!

nareik wrote:
I'm sure we've all read through a codex and seen an option that simply didn't seem to belong there.


For me it is Thousand Son Aspiring Sorcerers (as in the squad leaders) being able to take Gift of Mutation... Didn't Ahriman's Rubric fix that!?

It did fix that. Some sorcerers are of Azheks camp and view the mutations as awful whereas some display theirs openly with pride. I suppose it could represent existing disfiguration, but theres no excuse for the psychic power. Gift of Mutation should be the 'turn you into a spawn' power we used to have, which was a great leveler.

The other issue is that the sorcerers explicitly use the rubrics as bodyguards/shields to soak up enemy fire while they safely cast spells. It makes no sense that when a marine captain walks up that they leap out, waving their blunt staff wildly at his terminator armour and challenge him to a duel.

Experiment 626 wrote:

The issue; The rules for Daemons generating their powers from the God specific lores were never changed. Thus, a model can only generate up to half their powers from their own God's spell lore...
Meaning, the item is 100% unusable by a LoC Warlord (as he comes base with Mastery Lv2!). Hence, you are forced to take a Lv1 Tzherald as your Warlord, who while knowing all 7 spells in the new Tzeentch lore, can only ever cast 1 spell/turn!

That's not quite the issue. A psyker may cast as many spells as they know. A ML1 psyker who knows 2 powers (IE most ML1 psykers) can cast both, so a herald who knows all can cast all.
The issue is having warp charge when you only brought a ML1 psyker- you'd need the rest of your army to contribute dice.


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 Drasius wrote:


Ahriman can't take Divination despite the fact that he's the most powerful of the corvidae and is shown to use divination powers repeatedly in his novels.

Ahriman can't take a familiar (despite having a named familiar in ATS) making his spell casting less reliable than Unmarked sorcerer number 2.

Ahriman, chief librarian of the legion that invented librarians, does not have a psychic hood. His warp crown, talisman of Tzeentch and various mystic paraphernalia are just for show.

Thrall wizards, psychic wargear from the 3.5 ed codex could easily be brought back as useful extra warp charge generators that don't generate powers themselves. They probably won't be.

Rubric marines are described as animated empty suits of armour who feel no pain due to not having a body. Small arms fire that might wound a marine's body will pass through harmlessly. Only the complete destruction of their armoured shell (with heavy weapons for example) is enough to release the spirit trapped within.
Ingame effect? Standard flesh and blood marine statline, 4+ invuln making them twice as resilient against heavy weapons, no effect against small arms.

Battle of the Fang wrote:‘Your brothers have tended them with exceptional care.
Now we must preserve them further. How many Rune
Priests remain?’
‘Six, but four are acolytes and their powers are untried.
Only myself and Lauf Cloudbreaker have the power to
match a Thousand Sons sorcerer, should one gain the
portals.’

Ingame effect- Thousand sons Sorcerers are markedly less powerful than primitive rune priests.

Maugan Ra has Relentless...Totally useless considering his weapon is assault and relentless does not spread to the squad but it is probably factored in the cost for the character so he could be a bit cheaper.

Hornets, nearly all weapons are 5 points upgrade.
I can understand wanting lances or Pulse Lasers but Starcannons?

For 5 points you can have 48" S8 AP2 Heavy 2 OR 36" S7 AP2 Heavy 2.

Why would you take Starcannons on Hornets? Ever?

The Royal Court formation giving Relentless to everyone. No character has the option to take a rapid-fire or heavy weapon, and therefor doesn't benefit at all.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Daemons losing Eternal Warrior.

A daemon is literally eternal, as in the 40k setting they can only be banished, not killed.

I'm less cut up about this. Canonically force weapons are supposed to be good at fighting daemons, but there was a while there somewhere between 4th and 5th ed that suddenly every multi-wound daemon/monstrous creature, tough character etc that might make bringing a force weapon worthwhile got EW. Then codex daemons was released and they all had it, every one.

Being able to take a riptide/wraithknight/imperial knight outside of apocalypse.

Most Allies make no sense apart from Imperial ones. It also makes it easier to cover your army's weakness. They should be limited to 500pts of allies max.

 =Angel= wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Daemons losing Eternal Warrior.

A daemon is literally eternal, as in the 40k setting they can only be banished, not killed.

I'm less cut up about this. Canonically force weapons are supposed to be good at fighting daemons, but there was a while there somewhere between 4th and 5th ed that suddenly every multi-wound daemon/monstrous creature, tough character etc that might make bringing a force weapon worthwhile got EW. Then codex daemons was released and they all had it, every one.

Aye, Force Weapons were first introduced as anti-Daemon/psyker weapons, then they eventually became power weapons that could inflict ID...then Daemons all got EW and only sported Invul saves so Force Weapons were no more effective than clubs and rifle butts against them...twas very odd.

There are a lot of problems with the CSM codex so i'll just name a few pet peeve. Why can my blast master noise marine take an extra close combat weapon but my noise marines with the smaller sonic blaster cannot? Why can a chaos lord have a spell familiar or why can a Dark Apostle have an Aura of Dark Glory? Why can Warp talons or Possessed champions get two gifts of mutation, I thought they were already mutated Another person has already asked why Daemon Princes aren't Eternal Warrior, or Kharn and Lucius for that matter.

On another note why is Lucius' sword just a power sword? Isn't it still the Blade of the Laer? I don't care if the daemon inside is gone. The sword killed Ferrus, it should be more than just strength user ap3.

 BoomWolf wrote:


Actually, pistols being overcosted gak applies to every single marine codex, and not unique to the spiky ones.

Pistols are overpriced in every codex that includes pistols. It's one of the few things the marines don't have a monopoly on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VaneNeuro wrote:
Why can Warp talons or Possessed champions get two gifts of mutation, I thought they were already mutated

Why do you think there's an end to mutation?

VaneNeuro wrote:

Another person has already asked why Daemon Princes aren't Eternal Warrior, or Kharn and Lucius for that matter.

Because they die pretty easily and regularly.

VaneNeuro wrote:

On another note why is Lucius' sword just a power sword? Isn't it still the Blade of the Laer? I don't care if the daemon inside is gone. The sword killed Ferrus, it should be more than just strength user ap3.

Because the book that invented such a thing as a "Blade of Laer" was written 20 years after Lucius was invented.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:


Actually, pistols being overcosted gak applies to every single marine codex, and not unique to the spiky ones.

Pistols are overpriced in every codex that includes pistols. It's one of the few things the marines don't have a monopoly on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VaneNeuro wrote:
Why can Warp talons or Possessed champions get two gifts of mutation, I thought they were already mutated

Why do you think there's an end to mutation?

VaneNeuro wrote:

Another person has already asked why Daemon Princes aren't Eternal Warrior, or Kharn and Lucius for that matter.

Because they die pretty easily and regularly.

VaneNeuro wrote:

On another note why is Lucius' sword just a power sword? Isn't it still the Blade of the Laer? I don't care if the daemon inside is gone. The sword killed Ferrus, it should be more than just strength user ap3.

Because the book that invented such a thing as a "Blade of Laer" was written 20 years after Lucius was invented.

you mean back when his sword was AP2? you raise a good point that the lore has evolved past the game in some cases. it doesn't mean I have to like it, and it doesn't stop Lucius from being just an extra doom siren for 150+ points

Kharn and Lucius, maybe get killed, but they comes back to life each times.

And while Lucius enjoys the thrill of death, and die often because of this, Kharn as been killed only an handfull of times since the heresy and none of them where as grave as when he died durng the Siege of Terra.

But they give Lysander EW, because he was tortured a bit by Iron Warriors..., bs.

The Blade of Laer in my knownledge, was never in Lucius hands, its the weapon of Fulgrim, that made him fall into Chaos.

And Lucius never had a AP2 weapon, technically until 6th power weapons could be perceived as AP2 since they simply ignored armor, but still.

About options that doesn't make sens;

-Why a KDK Herald/DPrince cannot have a Axe of Khorne?
-Why KDK Axe of Khorne cost triple the price then Chaos Daemons Axe of Khorne?
-Why bother with summoning a FMC with the blood tithe, when the thing needs 3 turn before been able to assault?
-Why there is not a Blood tithe that lets units run+assault that turn is still a mysterie to me.
-WHy in the Nine layers of hell, didthey keep the Apoc points price of the Lord of Skulls..., its worse then a Knight, and cost more then double the points of one...

Dark eldar: Lelith's warlord trait. She's already ws 9; going to ws 10 is a waste of time as anything she might be attacking where that matters is already going to squish her.

Every option on Blood brides/wyches is a waste as the entire unit is worthless.

Pretty sure the original answer to this question as far as current codices are concerned was the Dark Apostle - who has Hatred, Fearless and Leadership 10 - being able to take Veterans of the Long War - which provides Hatred and +1 Leadership - at no additional cost despite it doing absolutely nothing. It's there as a fluff rule to determine whether it is a Legionnaire or a Renegade which is fair enough, but rules-wise its inclusion is utterly pointless.

 Deadshot wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Codex inquisition:

Inquisitorial weapons, the Plasma Pistol costs 15 points whilst the Plasma Gun costs 10.

+1 attack in CC and is assault weapon. Not really justifying the price but there is an advantage to the Pistol

I would agree, but Acolytes already have a Laspistol and CCW - and with their Guardsmans stat they do not like close combat!

In Renegades and Heretics (IA:13) there are more typos, rules mistakes and other WTF moments than there needs to be, but those are covered plenty all over.

Every renegade has the option to take auto weapons, or las weapons, just for kicks and giggles. I guess it is for true WYSIWYG purposes, or narrative reasoning. I mean, its awesome that it is in there, but it doesn't make sense that it needs to be specified. If I wanted to, I could have a unit of 10, half with lasguns, half with autoguns. Heck, I could have a unit of 12, 2 with autoguns, 2 with autopistols, 2 with lasguns, 2 with laspistols, 2 with shotguns and 2 with stubguns. All legal! I get it, I can mix and match, but really? There are 3 of the same pistol and 2 of the same rifle in that list!

 oldzoggy wrote:
Stick chucka's for ork transports.

It gives pasengers Stick bombz if they assault out of the transport, but they aleady have stick bombz all the time. Except for grots but nobody is assaulting with those.

Technically, it becomes a vehicle weapon, so, you can shoot a s3 ap- blast.

There's a named grot unit in red waaagh book that costs 40 pts instead of 35 pts. And gets nothing.

 Frozocrone wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
All ork vehicles may take Stikkbomb launchas.

Which give stikkbombs to any unit on the vehicle.

Except all ork models have stikkbombs.

It's also another weapon so it's not totally useless.

If you really want a WTF rule in the Ork Codex, Mad Dok has a Cybork body (FnP 6+) as well as Dok's Tools (FnP 5+ for himself and rest of unit)

Yeah basically that whole codex was just Kelly or whoever takin' the piss. The formations and revisions band-aid the army together to some degree but there's a palpable sense of incompetence throughout the whole thing.
You can literally go through the book picking out what parts were copied without being proofread, and which sections of fluff were written by different people who don't realize they're rephrazing something stated a paragraph ago.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Kharn and Lucius, maybe get killed, but they comes back to life each times.

And while Lucius enjoys the thrill of death, and die often because of this, Kharn as been killed only an handfull of times since the heresy and none of them where as grave as when he died durng the Siege of Terra.

But they give Lysander EW, because he was tortured a bit by Iron Warriors..., bs.

The Blade of Laer in my knownledge, was never in Lucius hands, its the weapon of Fulgrim, that made him fall into Chaos.

And Lucius never had a AP2 weapon, technically until 6th power weapons could be perceived as AP2 since they simply ignored armor, but still.

About options that doesn't make sens;

-Why a KDK Herald/DPrince cannot have a Axe of Khorne?
-Why KDK Axe of Khorne cost triple the price then Chaos Daemons Axe of Khorne?
-Why bother with summoning a FMC with the blood tithe, when the thing needs 3 turn before been able to assault?
-Why there is not a Blood tithe that lets units run+assault that turn is still a mysterie to me.
-WHy in the Nine layers of hell, didthey keep the Apoc points price of the Lord of Skulls..., its worse then a Knight, and cost more then double the points of one...

Possessed Fulgrim gives him the blade in ch. 25 of Fulgrim (2007) 5 years after he was introduced in 3rd edition.
My problem with Lucius speaks to a larger problem I see with the codex that KDK only exacerbated. Lucius, Slaanesh's greatest mortal champion and possibly best duelist in the galaxy gets punked by a regular terminator with a power sword let alone TH+SS and you can't build a Slaanesh Lord that fights better without losing that Initiative. Outside of noise marines, who are not good enough in today's meta, the mark of Slaanesh is only good for allowing the option of taking an overpriced feel no pain. Outside of Codex: Chaos Daemons there is no reasonable, competitive or tactical reason to take a Slaanesh unit.

The Blade of the Laer being strength user AP3 is a pet peeve. The fact that No Slaanesh champion can negate a 2+ without being Initiative 1 makes them effectively worthless and their inclusion in the codex makes no sense except for fluff reasons that the writers pick and choose anyway.

Seeing as the Blade of the Laer in HH is AP2 too..... It's also worse than his other weapon too. So it's quite pointless.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Seeing as the Blade of the Laer in HH is AP2 too..... It's also worse than his other weapon too. So it's quite pointless.

It doesn't have a Greater Daemon housed inside it when Lucius has it.

Isn't there a named Blood Angels IC that has the relentless special rule that comes with no heavy weapons or options to add heavy weapons.?

 Deadshot wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Seeing as the Blade of the Laer in HH is AP2 too..... It's also worse than his other weapon too. So it's quite pointless.

It doesn't have a Greater Daemon housed inside it when Lucius has it.

That's why the sword isn't rending like it was when Fulgrim had it. It was a dissapointment in HH and it's only worse in CSM

I know it's not technically a codex... but the Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery and Trojan in IA1 volume 2.

Basically the Heavy Artillery Carriage Battery has the Gun Carriage rule. The Fluff for the unit even describes Trojans towing them.... seeing Centaurs are too small to do so. However Torjans lack the Artillery Tractor rule.

Field Artillery can use both Trojans and Centaurs.... but lack the Gun Carriage rule.

This means despite the clear intentions, RAW you can't move either Carriages. Luckily many tournament rule edits fix this and usually if you ask your opponent they're more than happy to allow it.

Not that you'd want to move either...

 disdamn wrote:
Isn't there a named Blood Angels IC that has the relentless special rule that comes with no heavy weapons or options to add heavy weapons.?

Check what benefits 'Relentless' gives to models with Rapid Fire weapons.

 GoonBandito wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Experiment 626, read the relics text again. It only says "daemons that are able to take rewards" they do not need access to an exalted reward to take the new relics. So the exalted Alluress can take the whip.

The exact wording is "Demons of Slaanesh that have the option to take Exalted Rewards can also take a Hellforged Artefact of Slaanesh, paying the points shown below. These don't count towards the points spent on Demonic Rewards, but a model can't have more than one Hellforged Artefact (of any type). Only one of each of these items may be chosen per army."

So yes, RAW the Exalted Alluress cant take the Whips of Agony because she is only allowed to take Lesser and Greater rewards. However the intent of the rule is blindingly obvious (as the Exalted Alluress is the only model with permission to take the Whips of Agony in the first place) so I can't see anyone in their right mind not allowing it.

the exact wording is any daemon of slaanesh that can take daemonic rewards can take a hellforged artifact of slaanesh, the exalted alluress can take daemonic rewards

 Bobthehero wrote:
Not that you'd want to move either...

Well seeing the Medusa isn't a barrage weapon....

Always felt like you'd lost too much shooting while moving the thing around, might've missed the newer rules.

Tbh with only "36 range you may be forced to move the medusa, especially on larger boards.

I would've listed the gorkanauts crushing krew, they had furious charge on 2nd turn....since their klaws are s10 this special rule would only come into play if their klaw was blown off....but now they fixed that in the new ghaz supliment. ..they now get rage.
But one that still baffles me is the flashgitz. They all have bosspoles. ...why does a whole squad need bp, it's not like they get reroll on the mobrule table, they just have a redundant gear...and that replaced their eavy armor.
I might be able to see why they did it...their models all have bp looking things on their backs....but they also have huge armour on their models as well...just another evidence that gw just deisn't give a zog about orks

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
-WHy in the Nine layers of hell, didthey keep the Apoc points price of the Lord of Skulls..., its worse then a Knight, and cost more then double the points of one...

I must respectfully disagree. Lord of skulls has 9 hp, 5++ on all sides, IWND, gains an extra attack for each lost hp (whether he regains them or not), daemon forge, which synergises nicely with the amazing skullhurler. For those that don't know, it's 60" range Str9 ap3 apocalyptic blast successful saves must be re-rolled.... Yea.

Caederes wrote:
Pretty sure the original answer to this question as far as current codices are concerned was the Dark Apostle - who has Hatred, Fearless and Leadership 10 - being able to take Veterans of the Long War - which provides Hatred and +1 Leadership - at no additional cost despite it doing absolutely nothing. It's there as a fluff rule to determine whether it is a Legionnaire or a Renegade which is fair enough, but rules-wise its inclusion is utterly pointless.

If any rule came about that only affected VotLW (or non-Vets) then it makes a difference. For example.if BL had a formation or tule that only permitted Vets, then it matters. This is also why its free for the DA, because it loterally provides nothing.

geargutz wrote:
I would've listed the gorkanauts crushing krew, they had furious charge on 2nd turn....since their klaws are s10 this special rule would only come into play if their klaw was blown off....but now they fixed that in the new ghaz supliment. ..they now get rage.
But one that still baffles me is the flashgitz. They all have bosspoles. ...why does a whole squad need bp, it's not like they get reroll on the mobrule table, they just have a redundant gear...and that replaced their eavy armor.
I might be able to see why they did it...their models all have bp looking things on their backs....but they also have huge armour on their models as well...just another evidence that gw just deisn't give a zog about orks

If all these big orks have a boss pole how do they know who is in charge? Is the mob run by committee?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seeing as this thread has gone a little off topic, talking about anti-synergistic options and Lucius, I have a couple of Lucius things to add.

Firstly you can take Lucius in a Crimson Slaughter detachment, which gives him fear. Now, fear can lower the opponents ws to 1. How many attacks does Lucius have? A number equal to the opponent's ws. It's like he sees the challenger fail their fear test and thinks he should cut them a little slack.

The second Lucius thing I've noticed is how his armour will damage units that he makes successful saves against in combat. Combine Kharn and Lucius in an unmarked squad. Kharn rolls a 1 to hit, resolving the attack against Lucius. Lucius saves on his invulnerable, which then lands hits on their squad. These hits can be allocated onto Lucius, either injuring/killing Lucius or causing further hits. In this way Lucius can potentially be killed by himself/his armour. I bet all those trapped spirits inside his armour would take great pleasure in that. I wonder how Slaanesh would resolve his curse/blessing on Lucius in this situation?

VaneNeuro wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Seeing as the Blade of the Laer in HH is AP2 too..... It's also worse than his other weapon too. So it's quite pointless.

It doesn't have a Greater Daemon housed inside it when Lucius has it.

That's why the sword isn't rending like it was when Fulgrim had it. It was a dissapointment in HH and it's only worse in CSM

I do not think they are the same weapons. Fulgrim's blade is MASSIVE.

The laziness by which "special weapons" are now usually costed at a flat price no matter who wields it. A Nob or a warboss each pay the 25pts. Same with powerfists.

 Ashiraya wrote:

VaneNeuro wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Seeing as the Blade of the Laer in HH is AP2 too..... It's also worse than his other weapon too. So it's quite pointless.

It doesn't have a Greater Daemon housed inside it when Lucius has it.

That's why the sword isn't rending like it was when Fulgrim had it. It was a dissapointment in HH and it's only worse in CSM

I do not think they are the same weapons. Fulgrim's blade is MASSIVE.

Fulgrim literally hands him the empty daemon weapon and says something akin to "Its got no purpose for me know except looking pretty."

Are we certain it is the same blade he keeps around ten thousand years later? I have seen both models and one Fulgrim has is like twice the size. We're talking two-handed Primarch weapon and one-handed Marine weapon, here.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Are we certain it is the same blade he keeps around ten thousand years later? I have seen both models and one Fulgrim has is like twice the size. We're talking two-handed Primarch weapon and one-handed Marine weapon, here.

Aye it's one and the same - The size of the blade... Well... It's a chaotic power sword after the demonic entity left it. I'm sure GW writes it off as "It adapts to the wielders strengths" or something like that.

Zanderchief wrote:
The laziness by which "special weapons" are now usually costed at a flat price no matter who wields it. A Nob or a warboss each pay the 25pts. Same with powerfists.

This though. Its especially noticable in killteam, when you are kitting out an individual guard sergeant, who may cost 8 points and you may give him a power weapon for... 15 points? On a one wound St/T/I 3 guy? Or your commander may take a powerfist for 25 points. The same as an Ork Warboss, apparently.

Well, the costs associated with the construction/maintainance of a powerfist are the same, regardless of who wields it (assuming none are lost, of course), so I guess it is up to the armoury to make sure it is allocated to the best possible man.

That said, a more expensive powerfist could perhaps represent a more ornate model, with better powersupply, etc (and other factors which don't come up in game) to justify it costing more points for a fightier model.

nareik wrote:
Well, the costs associated with the construction/maintainance of a powerfist are the same, regardless of who wields it (assuming none are lost, of course), so I guess it is up to the armoury to make sure it is allocated to the best possible man.

That said, a more expensive powerfist could perhaps represent a more ornate model, with better powersupply, etc (and other factors which don't come up in game) to justify it costing more points for a fightier model.

And that makes sense for an RPG, where you go to market and are unable to afford the +1 sword without questing for a while. It makes sense for a campaign system like Necromunda where characters can accumulate gear.

It does not make sense for a wargame where weapons should be priced according to their damage output. Plasmapistols are supposedly rare and valuable relics in the setting but that doesn't mean they should cost more than the comparatively common Lascannon because the Lascannon is a more powerful gun.

And it certainly shouldn't cost as much for a BS 3 guard sergeant to have one as a BS 5 Marine captain, because the damage output isn't comparable.

Guardsmen in CCS/PCS can exchange their lasgun for laspistol and CCW. Who the hell yould do that?

And Powerfist for Guardsman sergeant. Weapon cost more than himself. Again, who?

 Hawky wrote:
Guardsmen in CCS/PCS can exchange their lasgun for laspistol and CCW. Who the hell yould do that?

And Powerfist for Guardsman sergeant. Weapon cost more than himself. Again, who?

I have no problem with a 50 point squad of 10 guard wielding a 10 point meltagun. The meltagun is more valuable then the trooper who holds it, his flak armour and his frag grenades.
If you look at veterans though- I don't think 70 pts is reasonable for ten men with lasguns, regardless of their BS. Their meltaguns though, cost the same as the BS 3 squad's guns, even though they hit more reliably.
It kind of averages out because while the guns are cheaper than they probably should be, the men are more expensive than they should.

As regards to CCW's, yes, the guard have no assault vehicles, no delivery systems. Might be nice to have a bit of backup for Straken when he goes over the top though.

 =Angel= wrote:
the guard have no assault vehicles, no delivery systems.

We have...

Gorgon Armoured Assault transport.
400pts and Apoc only.

 Hawky wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
the guard have no assault vehicles, no delivery systems.

We have...

Gorgon Armoured Assault transport.
400pts and Apoc only.

What about the .....

CRASSIUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT

It has assault in the name..... No idea of the actual rules, just that it causes your opponent to commit seppuku on deployment.

Not sure if you actually can assault from it. Gorgon is Open-topped.

and it's CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT, not Crassius.

By the Emperor I have failed.

Oh smite me CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

Surely you can, its in the name after all.

 welshhoppo wrote:
By the Emperor I have failed.

Oh smite me CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

Surely you can, its in the name after all.

The same way that an assault cannon isn't an assault weapon but a heavy weapon, or that the heavy flamer isn't a heavy weapon but an assault weapon?

 Drasius wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
By the Emperor I have failed.

Oh smite me CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

Surely you can, its in the name after all.

The same way that an assault cannon isn't an assault weapon but a heavy weapon, or that the heavy flamer isn't a heavy weapon but an assault weapon?

Sort of like how we drive in parkways and park in driveways? English is fun!!

I just got another one.

Less "codex options" and more of "rules don't make sense".

The Lightning Claw has had various different type of depictions but generally now it's a set of wolverine claws built into the back of a power fist, while pre-heresy and Chaos Marines get them in the form of actual clawed fingers.

What I don't get is that, despite being mounted on a Power Fist, they neither grant the double strength nor get unwieldy that their powerfist counterparts have. However, the reason Power Fists get those two is because the fist itself is huge and it's hard to maneuver....but why are the claws much more easy to maneuver? It's built on the same base. If anything it should be even HARDER to swing around, not easier.

The CSM and Pre-Heresy versions I can sorta understand; the user locks their arms in a certain position and swipes with their fingers instead. This way the actual glove portion doesn't really affect their mobility. But for the newer ones, where it's essentially a rack of blades mounted on the back of a power fist, I don't get how they'd be more mobile than a power fist when they essentially go through the same motions to swing it.

Can't remember if it was this edition or previous, but Tyranids old one eye.

Living battering ram gave him +2 initiative on the charge.
His claws make him strike at initiative 1 however.

So he goes up to I3 then drops to 1.

Oh, and he's land raider priced for a HQ fex that regens a bit better.

5th edition. They sorta just C+P'd the Carnifex's ruleset into Old One Eye without much thought.

 Jackal wrote:
Can't remember if it was this edition or previous, but Tyranids old one eye.

Living battering ram gave him +2 initiative on the charge.
His claws make him strike at initiative 1 however.

So he goes up to I3 then drops to 1.

Oh, and he's land raider priced for a HQ fex that regens a bit better.

Assuming it is this edition, Monstrous Creatures ignore Unwieldy, hence why we have the current D-Thirster rules.

Nope, it was 5th, and it wasn't unwieldy either, but straight up says "strikes at Initiative 1 regardless of modifiers".

monolith is a giant mobile platform that can't fire the particle whip and Gauss without forcing them to snap shot.

Meanwhile the doomsday ark fires a stronger, longer, primary 1 shot and can still shoot its sides.

grinds my gears

 Hawky wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
the guard have no assault vehicles, no delivery systems.

We have...

Gorgon Armoured Assault transport.
400pts and Apoc only.

And the stormlord, crassus...

Ok, yes, we have superheavy tanks outside the Codex that exist to ferry squishy t3 humans across a hostile battlefield to die gloriously.
That doesn't mean a 5 man of guard that ought to be really be giving orders somewhere behind heavy cover should throw away their sensible lasguns for chainswords.

(This comes from the man whose Platoon Command Squad spent the last game in a land raider, jumping out to frag grenade and charge an enemy veteran squad who had failed to kill it with meltaguns. The PCS still had their lasguns)

Pyrovores.

Your move.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pyrovores.

Your move.

Purgator Squads. Same cost as Strike Squads but aren't ObjSec, same option for 4 weapons as Purifiers but lacking any other benefits of Purifiers, and compete with Dreadknights.

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pyrovores.

Your move.

Purgator Squads. Same cost as Strike Squads but aren't ObjSec, same option for 4 weapons as Purifiers but lacking any other benefits of Purifiers, and compete with Dreadknights.

You don't have to take 10 to get 4 weapons, unlike the Purifiers. If you want 4 Heavy Incinerators in a Drop Pod, Purgators can do it cheaper.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pyrovores.

Your move.

Purgator Squads. Same cost as Strike Squads but aren't ObjSec, same option for 4 weapons as Purifiers but lacking any other benefits of Purifiers, and compete with Dreadknights.

You don't have to take 10 to get 4 weapons, unlike the Purifiers. If you want 4 Heavy Incinerators in a Drop Pod, Purgators can do it cheaper.

But they compete with Dreadknights.

 Deadshot wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pyrovores.

Your move.

Purgator Squads. Same cost as Strike Squads but aren't ObjSec, same option for 4 weapons as Purifiers but lacking any other benefits of Purifiers, and compete with Dreadknights.

You don't have to take 10 to get 4 weapons, unlike the Purifiers. If you want 4 Heavy Incinerators in a Drop Pod, Purgators can do it cheaper.

But they compete with Dreadknights.

That's just a worse unit, not one that literally has no point.

 Deadshot wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Pyrovores.

Your move.

Purgator Squads. Same cost as Strike Squads but aren't ObjSec, same option for 4 weapons as Purifiers but lacking any other benefits of Purifiers, and compete with Dreadknights.

Pyrovore counter.

50 point Heavy Flamer that does collateral damage to units near it when it dies. Not any faster than normal infantry. Model also costs £20+!

In the same Force Org slot as....

Lictors, Zoanthropes, Venomthropes and Malanthropes to name the 'quality' units.

Looted Wagon= 1 gorkanaut

Yet to play against anyone who lets my looted wagon unit composition to equal 1 gorkanaut

I don't play no more so not sure how the rules work anymore.

How about Tyranids Shadow of the Warp? When a hive approaches a planet a lot if not all the psychers go nuts. But in game SitW doesn't diddly squat rules wise.

So I guess once the Nids are on the planets all the psychers become ok and can preform perfectly in battle. shouldn't they be having a harder time casting psychic powers?

That's largely due to edition change. SOTW was a decent rule back when you used leadership to cast, not warp charges.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That's largely due to edition change. SOTW was a decent rule back when you used leadership to cast, not warp charges.

It lasted what a month maybe 2 before the rule became CRAP? lol

CSM: Mutilators......
Skitarii: Data-tether. Complete useless.

Belakor's Shadow Form has him auto pass Dangerous Terrain tests... but he is a Flying Monsterous Creature with Move through Cover, which auto passes Dangerous anyway.

Davor wrote:
I don't play no more so not sure how the rules work anymore.

How about Tyranids Shadow of the Warp? When a hive approaches a planet a lot if not all the psychers go nuts. But in game SitW doesn't diddly squat rules wise.

So I guess once the Nids are on the planets all the psychers become ok and can preform perfectly in battle. shouldn't they be having a harder time casting psychic powers?

Debuffing leadership on Psyker's is pretty handy, I don't know why you're saying it does diddly squat. Look at Psychic Shriek/Scream, which deals damaged based on opposed Leadership tests.
And when they Perils, they have to take Leadership tests...

So yea, the rule still represents Psykers going nuts.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
AoBF in C:CSM gives rage, but requires MoK to take, which gives rage.

That's 100% more rage!

Learn ta maff krectly! Rage squared!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some of the DA character wargear doesn't quite make sense.

Ezekiel, best librarian the DA have to offer? Sure he has the fancy ability to make everyone better in close combat but..... limited to a crappy sword and bolt pistol, can't do anything whatsoever against vehicles, hates Sammael (refuses to ride a bike to accompany the ravenwing), and, best of all..... can't get an invulnerable save.

Meanwhile, a run of the mill librarian can: get a 4+ invuln, get melta bombs, can pick any kind of force weapon and wield the crazy powerful mace of redemption, get better guns (including foe smiter), get FNP/shroud, ride a bike....

 MarsNZ wrote:
AoBF in C:CSM gives rage, but requires MoK to take, which gives rage.

Thats designed this way so that D Princes of Khorne gets rage with the Axe.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
AoBF in C:CSM gives rage, but requires MoK to take, which gives rage.

Thats designed this way so that D Princes of Khorne gets rage with the Axe.

but by the codex they don't have Mark of Khorne so can't take the axe! Fortunately an Errata resolves that problem.

I always had fun with Dark Apostle RAGE-RAGE running his squad of Berzerkers up the board behind a rhino. Friendly play only!

nareik wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 MarsNZ wrote:
AoBF in C:CSM gives rage, but requires MoK to take, which gives rage.

Thats designed this way so that D Princes of Khorne gets rage with the Axe.

but by the codex they don't have Mark of Khorne so can't take the axe! Fortunately an Errata resolves that problem.

I always had fun with Dark Apostle RAGE-RAGE running his squad of Berzerkers up the board behind a rhino. Friendly play only!

Yes, they errated it rather than FAQ because they intended DPoK to be able to take it but either forgot to put it in or changed DPs at last minute, or changed MoK last minute.

Honor guard have the option to replace their bolt pistols with a close combat weapon. Ruleswise, it doesn't really make sense.

Traditio wrote:
Honor guard have the option to replace their bolt pistols with a close combat weapon. Ruleswise, it doesn't really make sense.

Chapter Champions do, not Honour Guard, and its an option purely because the Chapter Champion model is the UM one that comes with Calgar, which has a power sword and combat blade. The option exists purely to make that model legal as is.

I've always disliked the fact that my Chaos sorcerers can have Spell Familiars, but Ahriman - who's apparently the big cheese of spells, can't, and perils like a biznatch

GW's reworked Celestians come to mind, turned from a WS4/I4 (which had a special rule to make sure they hit other high-WS units easier) decent enough elite tarpit in to... whatever the hell S3/WS3/I3/A2 qualifies as.

Flayed Ones in the IA:12 Necron List
Rules state that for units YOU MUST USE THE MOST UP TO DATE RULES (Hence why the Escalation C'Tan is Obsolete the the Necron Codex one)
Anyway, Because if this, you must use the Codex:Necrons versions, which have Shred on their Claws.
In the IA:12 list, they may take 'Flensing Scarabs' for 10 points. This allows them to reroll to wound in the first turn of assault

Completely useless (However you do get to take the Flayed Ones as troops in that list!)

commander dante wrote:
Rules state that for units YOU MUST USE THE MOST UP TO DATE RULES (Hence why the Escalation C'Tan is Obsolete the the Necron Codex one)

Can you point us to this rule can be found?

 Ghaz wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Rules state that for units YOU MUST USE THE MOST UP TO DATE RULES (Hence why the Escalation C'Tan is Obsolete the the Necron Codex one)

Can you point us to this rule can be found?

Well isnt it general consensus that you have to use the rules for the model(s) that are in the most up-to-date book/pdf?

'General consensus' does not mean that it is what the rules say. There is literally no rule that says you must use the most current rules.

 Ghaz wrote:
'General consensus' does not mean that it is what the rules say. There is literally no rule that says you must use the most current rules.

In point of fact, with the recent Warzone Fenris book, there was a blurb saying that we could choose to use either the new Iron Priest Datasheet OR the older one. That's a counter example. I suspect GW wants us using whichever version of the rules cause us to buy more models.

But yeah, general consensus is that you should be using the latest version of a given publication. General consensus becomes murkier when datasheets with the same name and faction exist in multiple sources which are all currently for sale.

 Ghaz wrote:
'General consensus' does not mean that it is what the rules say. There is literally no rule that says you must use the most current rules.

So by that Logic i could use my stupidly broken unit with its old OP rules just because it was recently nerfed.
Yeah, I dont think that will ever happen

commander dante wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
'General consensus' does not mean that it is what the rules say. There is literally no rule that says you must use the most current rules.

So by that Logic i could use my stupidly broken unit with its old OP rules just because it was recently nerfed.
Yeah, I dont think that will ever happen

If your opponent agrees, then yes you can as there is no rule to the contrary. GW leaves it to the players to decide which rules to use in their games.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Codex inquisition:

Inquisitorial weapons, the Plasma Pistol costs 15 points whilst the Plasma Gun costs 10.

Everyone forgets that plasma pistols are cc weapons, the 5 points is because you can get +1 Attack when combined with another cc weapon.....

 sfshilo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Codex inquisition:

Inquisitorial weapons, the Plasma Pistol costs 15 points whilst the Plasma Gun costs 10.

Everyone forgets that plasma pistols are cc weapons, the 5 points is because you can get +1 Attack when combined with another cc weapon.....

And are also Assault weapons vice Rapid Fire.

I guess this is GW's "implied consent" law/rule?

 sfshilo wrote:

Everyone forgets that plasma pistols are cc weapons, the 5 points is because you can get +1 Attack when combined with another cc weapon.....

No-one is forgetting. A laspistol is free, a bolt pistol is one point and they do the same thing. A plasma pistol is not 14 points better than a bolt pistol.
You get +1 attack when combined with a non specialist weapon- a powerfist, for example would not gain +1 attack.
We're mostly talking about s3, ws3 attacks here.

Plasmaguns are explicitly better in most situations because that extra 12 inches of range or that extra S7 AP2 shot will do more than walking up to the enemy and hitting them with the butt will.

 sfshilo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Codex inquisition:

Inquisitorial weapons, the Plasma Pistol costs 15 points whilst the Plasma Gun costs 10.

Everyone forgets that plasma pistols are cc weapons, the 5 points is because you can get +1 Attack when combined with another cc weapon.....

I would agree except for the fact that an Adept (the only one whom has this choice) comes with a Laspistol and close combat weapon anyway. So all I am doing is purchasing a second pistol for him.

 =Angel= wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:

Everyone forgets that plasma pistols are cc weapons, the 5 points is because you can get +1 Attack when combined with another cc weapon.....

No-one is forgetting. A laspistol is free, a bolt pistol is one point and they do the same thing. A plasma pistol is not 14 points better than a bolt pistol.
You get +1 attack when combined with a non specialist weapon- a powerfist, for example would not gain +1 attack.
We're mostly talking about s3, ws3 attacks here.

Plasmaguns are explicitly better in most situations because that extra 12 inches of range or that extra S7 AP2 shot will do more than walking up to the enemy and hitting them with the butt will.

A Plasma Pistol is significantly better than a Laspistol or Bolt Pistol, certainly 14 pts worth. The problem isn't with the pistol, its with the gun. Plasma Pistols are 15pts in all the Marine codexes as well, but Plasmaguns are also 15pts.

Genestealers can take scything talons for 4pts. The purpose? Despite having 4 arms by default, they only have one set of rending claws listed in their profile - therefore swapping one set of claws for the strictly worse scytals somehow makes them better in CC...

 Deadshot wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Honor guard have the option to replace their bolt pistols with a close combat weapon. Ruleswise, it doesn't really make sense.

Chapter Champions do, not Honour Guard, and its an option purely because the Chapter Champion model is the UM one that comes with Calgar, which has a power sword and combat blade. The option exists purely to make that model legal as is.

Actually, that is a great option as you can replace the champion's power sword with a hammer then swap out his boltgun for the CCW. You still get +1A.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Honor guard have the option to replace their bolt pistols with a close combat weapon. Ruleswise, it doesn't really make sense.

Chapter Champions do, not Honour Guard, and its an option purely because the Chapter Champion model is the UM one that comes with Calgar, which has a power sword and combat blade. The option exists purely to make that model legal as is.

Actually, that is a great option as you can replace the champion's power sword with a hammer then swap out his boltgun for the CCW. You still get +1A.

But only when wielding his Bolt Pistol and CCW, in which case you only just gone and paid 15pts on top of the 15 built into the unit to not use that weapon.

I should say, this is more a -lack- of option then one.

Landraiders can't take dozer blades (or get an equivalent rule).

So my hulking behemoth of a tank gets stuck going over a bit of rubble, but that rhino is a-ok. I don't even.

Razorbacks (the base version) costing +20 over a rhino for a TL HB, -4 transport cap, no repair rule, no firing points.

Honour guard can't take jump-packs, but can take bikes.

Combat shields, always pointless imo.

and finally, the existence of the Space Marine Hunter, when the Stalker is just better in every way (the missile launcher on top looks ridiculous also).

Anything which can have soulfright from tge dark eldar dex. S1 blast no ap that forces a ld test and wounds on the diffrence if failed. BUT does not work on fearless and imp marines all for the low price of 15 points. (The real kicker is this replaces assault and defence grenades for the unit same name diffrent effect).

Izural wrote:
I should say, this is more a -lack- of option then one.

Landraiders can't take dozer blades (or get an equivalent rule).

So my hulking behemoth of a tank gets stuck going over a bit of rubble, but that rhino is a-ok. I don't even.

Razorbacks (the base version) costing +20 over a rhino for a TL HB, -4 transport cap, no repair rule, no firing points.

Honour guard can't take jump-packs, but can take bikes.

Combat shields, always pointless imo.

and finally, the existence of the Space Marine Hunter, when the Stalker is just better in every way (the missile launcher on top looks ridiculous also).

chaos land raiders can (str 10 Ram!).... and they said chaos raiders were the bad ones. Must be tricky exiting thru the front assault ramp though!

Perhaps not quite the intent of this thread, but it amuses me that Njal Stormcaller is the only Marine that doesn't trade up his bolt pistol for a storm bolter when he puts on Terminator armour.