So for me, as a player returning after a long break I resently got to break my chaos marines back out and fight some loyalist marines for the first time in years, and man did I just get slapped in the face with all the problems I've been hearing about. However, being that the CSM codex is now one of the older codexes, I have been wondering about an update coming soon, and I'm not talking about the demon kin. So I came to ask you guys about what you think about a 7th Ed update to everyone's favorite spiky bros, and what you'led like to see, think we'll see and when we might see it.
Best guess from most of the reliable rumormongers is next year sometime at the earliest for a whole new codex. As such, nobody has any idea what it might look/play like. Tzeentch is supposed to get some sort of update this summer (new Rubric models, possibly sorcerers, maybe some sort of formations). That's all anybody knows.
The most reliable rumor sources, (Sad Panda/Lady Atia), have said don't except a codex & model line overhaul until sometime towards mid 2017...
As for what we need, it's quite simple really;
a) A complete model line overhaul from the ground up, on the level that Dark Eldar received back in 2009.
Without the models to support new toys, we're doomed to remain the game's worst army.
b) Rules that aren't still based off of 4th edition pricing, and 3rd edition 'Rhino Assault Rush' styles of game play.
Legion/Warband Tactics. New resculpts of Finecast stuff Some new super-heavy Plastic Dreadclaws More Special Characters (the way the fluff is progressing I want to see Sevatar Return as he's currently MIA) afterall I guess there must be a few more they could do Warsmith Honsou (or whatever his name is), etc. Fleshmetal upgrade for my Lord And to keep onto some AP 2 Relic weapon that is not unwieldy (I hope we don't lose this).
There are a lot of things in need of improvement. Without swamping the thread with bloated wishlists and fanwank, I'd ask for the following as a minimum:
- A list that is versatile enough to represent everything from raw recruit to Legion Veteran as a full template. I should be capable of playing a hardened core of veteran Astartes straight from the walls of Terra, just as much as I should be capable of playing Huron's space pirates and Bile's Genefreaks. More to the point, I should be capable of mixing them as much as I can play them on their own strengths.
- A wargear list that actually feels Chaotic, rather than simply sparse. I'd like Ectoplasma and daemonic sentience, I'd like warp portals and Dark Mechanicus. On the other side of the coin I'd like to see Destroyer-kit like chem munitions and rad grenades, as much as Dreadclaws and Deimos-pattern vehicles. Rapier batteries and Breachers pilfered straight from 30k, with the addition of Daemonic rounds and warplore. Tainted melee weapons and ensorcelled armour that is actually on-par with the Loyalists rather than strictly inferior.
- An identifiable playstyle that isn't 4 editions out of date. For example, building a Tau army is building a shooty army. Every unit you take is either presenting a unique type of firepower, or amplifying the units around them. You build an army greater than the sum of its parts. In contrast, a CSM army buys units, You buy your HQ and your Obliterators, and everything works as an individual rather than as part of a machine. Units are bought because they are individually powerful rather than with consideration for any synergy with the army around them.
- Units being given the tools they need to complete their job. We shouldn't be paying 20pts for a melee-MEQ unless we have a transport big enough to deliver them. We shouldn't be paying 30pts for an anti-MEQ melee unit that cannot assault into cover. We shouldn't be paying 24pts for a unit who's sole purpose is dumping AP3 bolters, when we have a flier that does it far better and far more efficiently than they ever could.
This isn't asking for power, I'm asking for the right tools and then give me a cost representative of their power afterwards. If a unit is pumped up enough to start eating HQs and break units, I'll happily pay the points to do that. I just want to feel like the fluff says I should.
Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.
Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.
A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.
Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.
master of ordinance wrote: Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.
Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.
A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.
Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.
I think it's better to have that as an option rather than the only way to do it otherwise you end up with it being: "We just turned to Chaos and got WAY better at fighting and then we found loads of old technology! It's great!".
Drop mandatory champions from each squad.
Drop Boon table because this is not warhammer fantasy!
Give rhinos an option for open topped.
Give helbrutes additional attack to be on par with drednaughts.
Make cultist into exact copy of RH infantry platoon and mutant rabbles. Why should they be 5ppm and have 6+ armor and no free swapping pistols for guns?
Grant army wide free Stubborn. BECAUSE they refuse to admit they are wrong!!! Provide RH sigil as an option to ignore 1st failed ld check.
Possibly remove marks and replace with Daemon of rules.
Replace Defiler with soul grinder. Make both model count as Soul grinder and possibly change them into GMC or MC.
Turn fiends and helbrutes and heldrake and into MC...seriously these are MC not vehicles...
Make obliterators cost 55ppm. Arbitrary reasoning because 70ppm is too over costed to fire one gun. If these where MC and can fire more than 1 gun and they can shoot 2 guns then 70ppm is appropriate. Also add a 48" gun to pair with lascannons.
Allow CSM infantry and vehicles to ignore weapons that gets hot. This hot plasma should fuel demonic enegies. Make all plasma weapon get +1 str like Ectoplasma. Make this all free and unique to CSM like the original plasma gets hot rule from 2nd ed.
Make helstorm autocannons available on all platforms capable of carry autocannons.
master of ordinance wrote: Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.
Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.
A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.
Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.
I think it's better to have that as an option rather than the only way to do it otherwise you end up with it being: "We just turned to Chaos and got WAY better at fighting and then we found loads of old technology! It's great!".
Thing is that is the fluff. Sure there are traitor chapters but they can be represented as well, with basic squads which are essentially Marine squads complete with ATSKNF and less weapon options but also cheaper.
master of ordinance wrote: Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.
Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.
A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.
Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.
I think it's better to have that as an option rather than the only way to do it otherwise you end up with it being: "We just turned to Chaos and got WAY better at fighting and then we found loads of old technology! It's great!".
Thing is that is the fluff. Sure there are traitor chapters but they can be represented as well, with basic squads which are essentially Marine squads complete with ATSKNF and less weapon options but also cheaper.
Thank you it just feels so wrong for 1000 year old super soldiers to be out gunned, over powered, and run off the field by scouts who havent even gained a carapace yet
master of ordinance wrote: Better stats - these are veterans of the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. They are ancient, experienced, deadly killing machines. Compared to them a modern space marine is a child. Make the stats reflect this.
Increased access to 30K issue gear and vehicles - the Legions should still have masses of pre-Heresy issue tech at hand. Let them have it.
A more legion escue structure - these are LEGIONS dammit.
Massive buffs to All the special characters and cult marines.
I think it's better to have that as an option rather than the only way to do it otherwise you end up with it being: "We just turned to Chaos and got WAY better at fighting and then we found loads of old technology! It's great!".
Thing is that is the fluff. Sure there are traitor chapters but they can be represented as well, with basic squads which are essentially Marine squads complete with ATSKNF and less weapon options but also cheaper.
Actually, I'm pretty sure the fluff is that there are no more "legions" other than Abby's coalition. Instead there are various war bands of various sizes that sometimes work together but just as often fight amongst themselves. Not saying there shouldn't be legion like rules for war bands that adhere to the old legionary ways, but it is chaos, and thus chaotic. Pretty much the antithesis of structured legionary ways.
I've had chance to spend some time with the actual Legion red book in the last 48 hours, and it's a masterclass in providing dense quantities of options, that operate mechanically and thematically, without (that I've seen so far) offering anything that outright outperforms anything else significantly, at least not at first pass, without countering that with some other drawback or limitation.
That this ability should exist within the organization and isn't being deployed to transform the whole of the mainstream flagship game is a pretty serious oversight, IMO.
Although I'd add a few daemon engines on top of a Marks system, as, while admitting I'm probably in the minority, I do like the odd dinobot. Perhaps some sort of walker/crawler/flier system where one could build the engine to one's tastes around a few different base archetypes tailored to tactical or thematic needs?
I've had chance to spend some time with the actual Legion red book in the last 48 hours, and it's a masterclass in providing dense quantities of options, that operate mechanically and thematically, without (that I've seen so far) offering anything that outright outperforms anything else significantly, at least not at first pass, without countering that with some other drawback or limitation.
That this ability should exist within the organization and isn't being deployed to transform the whole of the mainstream flagship game is a pretty serious oversight, IMO.
Although I'd add a few daemon engines on top of a Marks system, as, while admitting I'm probably in the minority, I do like the odd dinobot. Perhaps some sort of walker/crawler/flier system where one could build the engine to one's tastes around a few different base archetypes tailored to tactical or thematic needs?
Probably a bad question but what's the legion red book? Although I do agree, the mauler/forge fiends are some of my favorite of the models in the army, but I would prefer some more traditional vehicles as well.
Dino bots need to go, they are terrible terrible models and move chaos even further down the cartoony route, if they must stay, make them mc as they should be, same with the hell turkey, I'd even make that a flying gargantuan myself.
Formosa wrote: Dino bots need to go, they are terrible terrible models and move chaos even further down the cartoony route, if they must stay, make them mc as they should be, same with the hell turkey, I'd even make that a flying gargantuan myself.
That would be nice, if I had my way, they'd stay as MCs and chaos would get some more traditionol vehicles, like some Hersey era tanks, or dark mechanis pattern land raiders
At this point I primarily want new models and more importantly, an identity. Be it legions or renegades, though I would prefer either/or, not both in one book. Ideally one book per alignment, but that's whishlisting. As in one legion book, and then they can go ahead and release the individual legions via campaign expansions if they want to. And one book for renegades, since to me, they are quite different from both the legions and their loyalist brethren.
The legions are way more experienced and much more corrupted or are literally straight from the horus heresy via time warp shenanigens. These guys are a completely different breed of space marines in comparison to the newer loyalists. And they DO have lots of resources, albeit different from loyalists. They have made countless deals with dark mechanicum and have raided for millennia, not to mention all the more exotic gear borne from dealing with the daemonic, whether the initial creator survived the deal or not.
Renegades have neither the loyalist gear, nor the legion experience or resources. Often such bands form from desperation, so even if an entire chapter goes rogue, by the time they recover, they will have lost most of their stuff but come out with some unique form of corruption. Changing the survivors forever. In that sense they are more flexible than the legions in what you can do with them. These are perfect for campaign books imho. And tbh, I would prefer GW go this route and then forgeworld can eventually do legions proper. It's kinda the next logical step after the horus heresy anyway. They already have a few super sexy corrupted power armoured models after all.
There is obviously some overlap between the two, but I think there's enough to warrant separate books, especially considering campaign updates. I think it would benefit csm in the long run.
- The C:SM of the Chaos side similar to what currently exists but updated with more Renegade lines; Razorbacks, LR variants, etc.
Chaos Space Marines: Chaos Legions
- The "Grey Knights" (plus DA, BA and SW rolledin) of Chaos. More expensive, vastly different options available, wilder, more exotic, more powerful units. Access to Heresy wargear and unique units.
Chaos Space Marines: Tzeentch/Nurgle/Slaanesh Daemonkin
- As you'd expect. Nurgle would have a system based on the number of units you kill that can increase resilence or utilise witchfire or nova-esque effects. Tzeentch would have a system based on Warp Charges. Slaanesh would have a Blood Tithe esque table but based on another system other than destroying units. All 3 would be based on the update renegades book.
Chaos: Dark Mechanicum
- Like AdMech forces but different, more brutal and destructive.
The one thing 40K does not need is more books not to get updated, more rules to duplicate the effects of other rules just with different names and greater expense to access rules.
There is nothing simple about 6 books, besides, going back to the FW paradigm, you could do it in two, one for the core list and one for the unique units and other deviations to allow for different flavours of force.
If you want to play renegades, the vanilla marine book is right there. They maintain their chapter tactics of the chapter that they used to be, they haven't dumped all their good gear off into the warp yet and haven't gotten the notice of the gods, so don't come with marks. I've never understood why the CSM book caters to renegades.
Legions are what the vast majority of the CSM playerbase wants, let them have chapter tactics befitting their legions and maybe a couple more to represent warbands from the red corsairs or similar.
Fix the horrendous costs on the majority of their units like the ubquitous warp talons, possessed, thousand sons, bersekers, defiler and mutilators, as well as giving their dreadnaughts the base attacks to match the vanilla SM, the ability to mark daemon engines (and affect their WS & BS), a rebalancing of marks so it's not a choice of Nurgle or nothing,
Fix the wording on primary detatchment so you can have cult troops as troops with the appropriate HQ in an allied detatchment, streamline the boon table so it's actually useful and remove the must challenge requirement for non-lord characters. Allow marked characters to take cult upgrades as it's galling for my Tz sorceror to be the only infantry unit without inferno bolts.
A return to daemonic upgrades as well as flavourful relics like kai guns and bedlam staves would be nice, as would some actual options in the base kits instead of 1 of each of the same 3rd ed guns.
A new CSM kit that has some actual detail on the kit instead of smudges and smears where details are meant to be, a decent multi part kit for cultists, a kit at all for chosen, new possessed, non-finecast oblits (dual kit with muties if you must keep them in the dex instead of rolling their abilites into oblits), plastic cult troops (including new plastic zerkers), a new Abbadon and Lucy, 40kified skullcrushers.
Some decent psychic powers so taking a marker sorcer isn't just plain shooting yourself in the foot, especailly Tzeentch.
A decent decurion base that not only doesn't cost an exorbitant amount of points, but one that rewards cult players for taking their gods number of troops and rewards non-cult players for taking maxed or 10+ man squads. The ability to play mono cult, unmarked and a mix via core and auxilary options would be highly appreciated.
Either T6 or eternal warrior for princes, since it's really not that hard to kill what is effectively 4 marine bikes stapled together.
I agree that half a dozen of books isn't a good idea. It should be entirely within the realms of feasibility to make a single decent core list that is then modified by legion tactics and/or marks. If you really want to you can just have the marks and veteran skills in the first book to represent the Black Legion and the big four and then later release a smaller companion book that has rules and special characters for the remaining four legions. Veteran skills, if done right, will still allow you to decently represent the others, you just won't have special units or the like.
To be entirely honest, at a certain point I also thought that multiple books for Chaos would be a good idea. Then it was pointed out to me that in order to build a decent force, I would need to expend a ridiculous amount of money just to get the ridiculously overpriced books.
Everything can be rolled in a single codex if done right. Haines' 3.5 did it right (although he went a bit overboard with some options).
Except loyalists seem to be able to get by just fine with half a dozen books and are able to make it work perfectly, and usually only have to buy one or two books if they want allies. There's no reason Chaos can't do the same or any other faction for that matter.
KDK is the right path. It wasn't done perfectly, but it's the path.
What chaos needs (and I work on homebrewing) is 5 codcies, one for each god, and one for the "black legion and escorts"
With things like other legions being spin off Decurions, like RG and WS got.
Deadshot wrote: Except loyalists seem to be able to get by just fine with half a dozen books and are able to make it work perfectly, and usually only have to buy one or two books if they want allies. There's no reason Chaos can't do the same or any other faction for that matter.
Because "loyalists" are not a 40k army. You have Codex: Spesss Mehreens, which includes Ultrasmurfs, Iron Hands, etc. That's an army. Then you have Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Dark Angels who are armies on their own right. And precisely some of them (Space Wolves) are the prime example of what happens when someone goes too far at making a certain army unique.
I don't think Chaos Space Marines need such a thing. The "Legion rules" from 3.5 worked quite well towards making different legions/warbands stand out on their own, and they were one or two pages long in each case. You don't need an entirely separate codex in order to make Night Lords, Thousand Sons and World Eaters to have flavour on their own right.
Also, Khorne Daemonkin was an excuse to sell the new Bloodthirster kit to 40k players. It failed to adress 99% of the issues of the CSM codex. Daemonkin is certainly NOT the way to go. It won't likely happen again anyway.
Deadshot wrote: Except loyalists seem to be able to get by just fine with half a dozen books and are able to make it work perfectly, and usually only have to buy one or two books if they want allies. There's no reason Chaos can't do the same or any other faction for that matter.
I don't want one book for each legion followed by one book for each daemonic legion followed by a book each for traitor guard, mutant hordes, cultists and mechanicus. Space marines are already over the top with separate books as it is and that's without them even being famous for intermingling. A single Legions of Chaos book that is flexible enough to represent any legion followed up by a The Lost and the Damned book with rules for daemonic incursion lists (current daemon lists), rules for using daemons with regular SM and IG etc lists to represent them going rogue or falling to daemonic possession, special characters unique to each legion and maybe some expanded rules for mutants and chaos spawn etc would be more than sufficient.
I'd honestly like a swappable Daemon Engine kit, kind of like Armoured Core 3, only for Chaos Space Marine vehicles.
Give us a Chaos Knight detachment, give us Plastic Chaos Knights, 55ppm Oblits, remove Oblit Slow and Purposeful and resculpt oblits, make Hellbrutes MC's and Deffies Superheavy Walkers.
Don't get me wrong. I would prefer one giant tome of chaos if I had the choice, but I don't think GW is willing or capable to pull that off. And it seems campaign books are here to stay.
So, unique renegades makes more sense to me from GW's point of view until they figure out what to do with legions.
More so, given how the crimson slaughter are their new poster child of chaos. I think that we would both be better off if GW decided to run with renegades for now and make them their own thing, instead of mixing everything in one book.
There are simply too many mortal followers of chaos to cram into one book, Legions, Renegades, R&H. It doesn't fit GW's business model. So I'd rather have them focus on one and make those good. They're going to have to completely redesign csm either way. And renegades would let them come up with completely new stuff.
I don't really get the "more books is bad" thing either. The more books, the more flavorful any given sub faction can be. And unless you're hell bent on allying everything, then you only need one or two books. Like If I wanted to play space wolves, I'd only have to get the space wolves codex, nothing else. I mean sure, one giant book with everything would be cool, but getting a specific codex for your chapter is hardly a deal breaker.
Deadshot wrote: Except loyalists seem to be able to get by just fine with half a dozen books and are able to make it work perfectly, and usually only have to buy one or two books if they want allies. There's no reason Chaos can't do the same or any other faction for that matter.
That's the way that Loyalists work now, yes, but that doesn't mean it's the best way for them to work either. A core Loyalist book alongside a core Traitor book alongside one, maybe two, supplements for each has a much greater degree of simplicity, is much easier to balance and update, requires less investment both to buy and manufacture etc etc.
Even with the current Loyalist set up, how many unit entries are duplicated in each one? I know I'm banging on about it, but the FW paradigm is just so much better it's really incredible that nobody in GW management has stopped, looked at it and thought "hang on a minute.."
I feel like chaos needs a lot of stuff, but mainly:
More optimized choices for different roles - we have many combat units, one or two of them are ever worth taking.
Better special characters would be quite nice but not a huge priority, I just dont like it how other special characters seem to be able to bitch slap ours most of the time.
Make it so the land raider isnt the only vehicle with an assault ramp! I'm forced to use a dreadclaw to ever have a chance at winning.
Cheaper costs across the board, we cant get as many bodies down as other armies and the ones we do get down normally still arnt as good.
More reliability from things like the chaos boon table or possessed, dont get punished for having a chance to get a basic daemon prince that lost the 100 pts of upgrade you gave your lord, or worse yet a spawn.
There is probably more than this but I think this touches on a lot of the major issues.
There have been many theories as to why Chaos hasn't gotten an update in so long but for me I think the following on the primary reasons:
1.) The range is ancient. We're one of the few ranges which still largely rely on 3rd and 4th edition models, with the exception of the SoBs (who rely on even older 2nd edition models!). Due to this, a hell of a lot of options are missing from our lineup, like Terminators who get ONE WEAPON per type per box, compared to Grey Knight Terminators who have every weapon option for every model. I suspect that they're making resculpts for all of the chaos space marine models (at least the generic ones like Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons, and Khorne Berserkers) before rolling out a new codex. They do seem to have a style set for them already though, just look at the DV Chosen, Aspiring Champion and Raptors.
2.) GW has no idea which direction to go with for the Chaos Space Marines. Prior to 4th edition, the idea was that the Chaos Space Marines were the original Traitor Marines, preserved through the machinations of the Warp, fighting in present day. 4th edition and 6th edition instead tried to portray them as renegade marines, with the traitor legions being mere remnants of their former glory. This comes up as a problem for their wargear and rules; they had their signature Combi-Bolters and lack of landspeeders because, before, Stormbolters and Landspeeders didn't become widespread until after the heresy, so what few ones the Traitor Legion had broke down and couldn't be replaced soon after. But this doesn't make sense since a lot of the legions are known to salvage stuff from loyalist marines. With making them "renegades" runs into the same problem; how the hell did they suddenly gain Combi Bolters, which are suppose to be from around the heresy, despite them being new traitors with new items? Functionally they should be the same as vanilla marines with some daemonic support. And then there's pleasing the fanbase, as some prefer the older traitor legions and the mutant monstrosities they've become, while others think it's unrealistic (casualties should really have made them remnants) and that being Renegade Marines makes more sense. It's a careful balancing act that GW has been unable to make work at all for 2 editions now.
3.) There have been increasing hints that GW wants to get rid of Slaanesh altogether, as his/her theme of sex, lust and excess are not exactly wholesome ideas for branching out into the mainstream (but for some reason gore, disease and body horror are). However doing so would be to take out a huge chunk of the estabilished fluff and literally negate 1/4th of the entire chaos army altogether, so again they're not exactly sure of what they're gonna do.
Special Rules: All Marks grant fearless, Undivided is free, lets us re-roll failed moral. LD is 9, 10 for champs. Boons; replace with a D6 chart. 1 is bad. 6 is cool. 2-5 is useful. Give Aspiring Champs 2 wounds.
Wargear - Mutations that boost stats. Maybe even some negative debuffs we can choose to shave points off a character (Insanity, Bad Mutations). I think this would be fluffy and a unique option. Cooler demon weapons including ranged. Expensive, flashy and fearsome. Make our Lords intimidating. A weapon that inflicts D3 wounds on MC / GMC could help.
Weapon Options - Let's get some Extoplasma Cannons or something for Havocs / CSM squads. We are not getting many new toys so lets have optional Warp Ammo upgrades for what we already have. 36" Str10 Ap2 "Dark Lascannon". Warp Flamers that deny Overwatch. Mutagenic Missiles. Give us Inferno Round upgrades for Heavy Bolters. Imagine a Havoc Squad with Mini Hades Autocannons.
Sorcerer - Let's get some decent God specific powers going, and a "Black Magic" generic Chaos lore. We should have some powerful, risky spells to cast. I'd like the option to pay extra points for an "Exalted Sorcerer" which has 3 wounds so we can splash points upgrading them and not have them die to perils so easily. Maybe starts at mastery 3 and can go to 4. A bit like the old Lord Wizards / Hero Wizards of old WHFB.
Prince - Small points reduction?
Chosen / CSM Squads - Again, knock the cost down. Let us use those points on some cool upgrades. Not expecting these to become amazing but give us some customization so we can be more excited to field them as something other than a tax.
Helbrute - Give a demon save. Give us access to normal dreads also with the brute being our ugly venerable.
Mutilators - Let them deepstrike into CC if they land on an enemy unit, maybe give the target a choice to overwatch at full BS or flee.
Talons - Cost reduction
Vehicles - Squads please. Special rules appreciated. Warp Ammo upgrades.
More reliability from things like the chaos boon table or possessed, dont get punished for having a chance to get a basic daemon prince that lost the 100 pts of upgrade you gave your lord, or worse yet a spawn.
The fact these things exist at all is an issue in my book. I'm a great advocate for player agency over random tables (as I'm sure most are) and contrary to what GW tries to force feed us, random tables do not encourage forging the narrative.
If I wanted to forge a narrative, I'd give my Lord a tentacle for an arm (for instance.) I'd model that on the miniature, and I'd select it at as an option whenever I fielded the model, it could give him +1A, act as a 2nd melee weapon, impose -1A in a challenge, there'd be all sorts of ways to implement it that made it useful without breaking the game or requiring too high a points cost. My narrative would be that he lost his original arm in a duel with a loyalist but ultimately emerged victorious and so was rewarded with a replacement by his patron God.
As it stands, I can model it, I can have a reason for it, but every game he can swing wildly in what that very same boon does functionally on the table, many of which would have little bearing on the detail and effort I'd put into the model and the backstory. This isn't forging the narrative, this is breaking immersion. Why, given the obvious presence of a tentacle for an arm, is my Lord Stubborn?
Same goes for the Possessed. The best reference we have for what it's like for a Possessed day to day are the HH series. Now, in that context an individual Marine is inhabited by an individual entity with, while far ranging and personal, a fixed set of attributes. While they can appear somewhere between quite normal and full Daemon depending on circumstance, they either have wings, or don't etc etc.
Much better to have a range of upgrades where you can make an informed tactical choice about the unit's role, pay the points, model the minis and get on with it than have them roll exactly the right result for the situation, be in the middle of kicking arse, then all of a sudden change their mind and do something completely different and totally inappropriate 'cause Chaos!
If I ever meet Jervis, I'll be tempted to stuff a collection of random tables into one of his orifices, but I'll be sure to roll a D6 to determine which one...
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: There have been many theories as to why Chaos hasn't gotten an update in so long but for me I think the following on the primary reasons (...)
As much as these make sense, I'm afraid the truth is actually simpler: there's currently nobody at the Studio who actually cares about Chaos Space Marines. Or rather, nobody who cares and has actually the power to do anything about it.
If you look at the development and evolution of 40k over the years, it's painfully obvious certain things happen merely because one of the main designers pushes for it (not taking into account the times upper management has stepped in and demanded certain changes or courses of action, like 3rd edition as a whole).
Chaos 3.5 happened because Pete Haines cared. Eldar have been one of the most powerful armies throughout all editions because Phil Kelly wants it so. Matt Ward turned most things he touched into Mary Sues.
On the other hand of the spectrum, when nobody particularly cares about a certain army, that army tends to get heavily mis-treated. Nobody cared about the Squats, so they got squatted (the Squats' fate should have been a clear warning to everyone about the things to come, but other than actual Squats players, the lobotomized fanbase refused to listen). Nobody has cared about SoB or CSM for a long time, and thus their current state. It's been similar for Tyranids, a faction that has been neglected since 4th edition. Similar things have happened in Fantasy too, i.e. only Priestly seemed interested in Chaos Dwarfs so when he got sidelined by GW the Chaos Dwarfs were left to rot and die.
Back to Chaos Space Marines, it just seems nobody cares at this point.
-Remove Forced Challenges and the boon table. (dumbest gak i've ever seen)
Release 3 codexes:
Codex 1: Traitoris Extremis: Focuses on Black Legion, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. Full rules, formations and individual artifacts section and special rules for each legion.
Codex 2: Traitoris Daemonica: Focuses on Death Guard, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children. Full rules, formations individual artifacts sections and special rules for each legions.
Codex3: Renegades and Heretics: Focuses on Renegade Warbands and Imperial Guard such as Red Corsairs, Crimson Slaughter etc. Full rules, formations individual artifacts sections and special rules for each legions.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: There have been many theories as to why Chaos hasn't gotten an update in so long but for me I think the following on the primary reasons (...)
As much as these make sense, I'm afraid the truth is actually simpler: there's currently nobody at the Studio who actually cares about Chaos Space Marines. Or rather, nobody who cares and has actually the power to do anything about it.
If you look at the development and evolution of 40k over the years, it's painfully obvious certain things happen merely because one of the main designers pushes for it (not taking into account the times upper management has stepped in and demanded certain changes or courses of action, like 3rd edition as a whole).
Chaos 3.5 happened because Pete Haines cared. Eldar have been one of the most powerful armies throughout all editions because Phil Kelly wants it so. Matt Ward turned most things he touched into Mary Sues.
On the other hand of the spectrum, when nobody particularly cares about a certain army, that army tends to get heavily mis-treated. Nobody cared about the Squats, so they got squatted (the Squats' fate should have been a clear warning to everyone about the things to come, but other than actual Squats players, the lobotomized fanbase refused to listen). Nobody has cared about SoB or CSM for a long time, and thus their current state. It's been similar for Tyranids, a faction that has been neglected since 4th edition. Similar things have happened in Fantasy too, i.e. only Priestly seemed interested in Chaos Dwarfs so when he got sidelined by GW the Chaos Dwarfs were left to rot and die.
Back to Chaos Space Marines, it just seems nobody cares at this point.
That's not entirely true...
Tyranids haven't been neglected in any way shape or form; they've had among the most releases through 5th edition up to current! The problem for Tyranids is that they're in part a melee focused horde army in a game that heavily favours shooting above all else, and in part suffer from a similar problem that Chaos Marines do in that they're still paying 4th/5th edition pricing for all their units/upgrades.
Likewise, Phil cares equally for Dark Eldar as much as Craftworld Eldar, yet DE suck monkey balls ruleswise. Conversely, Eldar have almost always been grossly above everyone else, simply because, "Elves in space!"
Marines are GW's poster children, and yet, it wasn't until recent times in 5th edition that they finally became an actual threat on the table! 2nd & 3rd editions especially, Marines with the sole exception of Space Wolves, were a complete joke army. (back in 3rd, SW's had the second most tournament wins, behind only Eldar!!)
The whole "GW hates Chaos" has been a very recent thing, some say mostly down to Kirby being a toolbag who hated Chaos in general.
During the 4th ed codex release, Chaos Marines got a feth tone of kits released; Re-designed Chaos Marine box, Terminators, Possessed, Terminator Lord, Vindicator (including new re-worked upgrade sprue), Huron Blackheart... and re-boxings for Predator + Land Raider to include the newer frame as well.
Unfortunately, the technology was in it's infancy, and we've had nothing of note since that last release, with the exception of the Raptor/Warptalons, Dinobots, Hellturkey & Hellbrute. (and ALL of those new kits are frankly gorgeous looking!)
No other army has gone 10 years of near complete neglect since 2007. Prior to that however, it was literally Orks, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Guard, etc... who were getting the "feth you" attitude from GW.
During that time however, Chaos Marines were getting nearly as much attention as Marines were, and daresay, equal the attention that Eldar & Tyranids were getting.
Our real pain has been since '08/'09, when GW decided to go crazy with the customisation & such for everyone, of which only we've been missed out on.
Before that however, let's remember that we were the army that got ALL the cool super fluffy extras that no one else got! 3.5ed was amazing... It's awesome really that it lead to GW giving similar treatments to everyone, just unfortunate that the army which started it all has sadly been left to rot as the only true 'have-not'.
It's less "GW hates Chaos" and more "GW doesn't know what to do with Chaos" for me. Again, everything I listed above basically makes Chaos a huge liability at this point. They have no idea how to go with the fluff nor do they know where they wanna go with the range.
Also, I highly doubt anything resembling the 3.5 edition codex would ever come. All of the new codexes are very cookie cutter, with special rules thrown in to differentiate them. 3.5, by contrast, was a labor of love compared to anything new. We might get something OP, but we won't get anything close to the old legion rules. And it will be simply because it'll be too much effort. Hell, at this point, the Marks of Chaos feels more like an Artifact of bygone times rather than a central theme to tie the armies together, and they're suppose to be the central theme behind Chaos!
Experiment 626 wrote: Tyranids haven't been neglected in any way shape or form; they've had among the most releases through 5th edition up to current! The problem for Tyranids is that they're in part a melee focused horde army in a game that heavily favours shooting above all else, and in part suffer from a similar problem that Chaos Marines do in that they're still paying 4th/5th edition pricing for all their units/upgrades.
They've been neglected in the sense that, despite new (and frankly quite uninspired, as far as my taste goes) kits, the army has hardly been shown any kind of love. When an army's new book is assigned for Cruddace to make, you know nobody isn't really interested.
Likewise, Phil cares equally for Dark Eldar as much as Craftworld Eldar, yet DE suck monkey balls ruleswise. Conversely, Eldar have almost always been grossly above everyone else, simply because, "Elves in space!"
Not sure if I agree with that. If Kelly cared for DE as much as his beloved Eldar, DE wouldn't have been like 10 years without an update (as they were from 3rd to 5th). And as far as their current iteration goes, I'd say Kelly sees DE mostly as a tool for his Eldar to be even more powerful over the gaming table.
Marines are GW's poster children, and yet, it wasn't until recent times in 5th edition that they finally became an actual threat on the table! 2nd & 3rd editions especially, Marines with the sole exception of Space Wolves, were a complete joke army. (back in 3rd, SW's had the second most tournament wins, behind only Eldar!!)
Spess Mehreens have suffered from several fluff vs. rules issues from the very beginning, mostly because the trend in the fluff has (mostly) always been to paint them as unbeatable, nigh-invulnerable superheroes, while in the rules... stat-wise they haven't really got past the "elite human" spot. In the end, playing marines has always meant paying extra points for a base unit that - in practice - doesn't perform much differently than a normal human wearing carapace armor. It's a problem GW has never been able to fully solve, despite throwing more and more snowflake special rules at it (talk about long-term incompetency lol).
Still the amount of attention they get is head and shoulders above any other faction. Currently we have four loyalist marine full codices (SM, SW, DA and BA) and not five because they stopped caring about Black Templars a while ago.
The whole "GW hates Chaos" has been a very recent thing, some say mostly down to Kirby being a toolbag who hated Chaos in general.
During the 4th ed codex release, Chaos Marines got a feth tone of kits released; Re-designed Chaos Marine box, Terminators, Possessed, Terminator Lord, Vindicator (including new re-worked upgrade sprue), Huron Blackheart... and re-boxings for Predator + Land Raider to include the newer frame as well.
Unfortunately, the technology was in it's infancy, and we've had nothing of note since that last release, with the exception of the Raptor/Warptalons, Dinobots, Hellturkey & Hellbrute. (and ALL of those new kits are frankly gorgeous looking!)
The "re-designed" Chaos Marines from 4th edition were mostly the same as the 3rd ed. box, with very minor differences, and the kit is still lacking in terms of special weapons (except plasma pistols lol). Plastic Terminators weren't much of an improvement over the previous metal models from the mid 90s, and their weapons options are a joke. Same for Posessed, I'd even say the 3rd ed. models were vastly superior.
About the new stuff from 6th... I agree the Raptors/Warptalons kits is excellent. As for the rest however, the Dinobots are merely ok for my taste, and quite a lot of people find them pretty dumb and goofy looking. Both the Heldrake and the Helbrute leave me indiferent, I don't really like the artistic choice that lead to the Helbrute (or to be more precise, I wouldn't have complained if the Helbrute hadn't meant the removal of the classy old Chaos Dreadnought). Frankly, I see the Heldrake and the Helbrute, then I have a look at what Forgeworld did... and if it were up to me, the Hellblade and the Ferrum Infernus Dreadnought would be featured in the CSM codex instead.
No other army has gone 10 years of near complete neglect since 2007. Prior to that however, it was literally Orks, Necrons, Dark Eldar, Guard, etc... who were getting the "feth you" attitude from GW.
During that time however, Chaos Marines were getting nearly as much attention as Marines were, and daresay, equal the attention that Eldar & Tyranids were getting.
Our real pain has been since '08/'09, when GW decided to go crazy with the customisation & such for everyone, of which only we've been missed out on.
Before that however, let's remember that we were the army that got ALL the cool super fluffy extras that no one else got! 3.5ed was amazing... It's awesome really that it lead to GW giving similar treatments to everyone, just unfortunate that the army which started it all has sadly been left to rot as the only true 'have-not'.
The 4th edition codex (2007) and what it meant is an insult that simply can´t be forgotten.
It'd be nice if they could design CSM to work like a real army rather than a punching bag whose primary "tactic" is to advance up the middle of the board providing nice target practice for Little Timmy's SM before being defeated in heroic single combat. After the Black Legion supplement came out where they actually advocated taking 20-man squads with no upgrades to charge the enemy on foot, it became painfully clear that the gak that is Codex: CSM is fully intentional. This is an army that is literally designed to lose. I wouldn't expect anything to be fixed when it's working as intended.
Am I the only one who likes the Boon Table? I find it very Chaos-y! I don't mind the must challenge rule either. I'll admit it doesn't work well all Legions, but I think it's flavourful for say recently turned warbands whose leaders seek the approval of the gods. I think if it was made optional, as per Boon of Mutation, it would be better.
My grievances are the lack of Warband/Legion/God tactics, piss-poor internal and external balance leading to monobuilds, higher point costs than Loyalist equivalents with better options and statlines (this bloody includes Cultists), lack of synergy, and outdated models that should, nay, need redoing.
ChazSexington wrote: Am I the only one who likes the Boon Table? I find it very Chaos-y! I don't mind the must challenge rule either. I'll admit it doesn't work well all Legions, but I think it's flavourful for say recently turned warbands whose leaders seek the approval of the gods. I think if it was made optional, as per Boon of Mutation, it would be better.
Champions of Chaos works (worked?) in Fantasy because in Fantasy Chaos characters will (would?) routinely mop the floor with almost everything they encountered.
In 40k? Outside of specific moments, being forced to challenge is usually a disadvantage. And the Boon Table is not "Chaos-y", it's "Jervis-y". A random table for the sake of random tables. Bring the mutations and chaos boons as options you pay for while making your list, and let your champion turn into Daemon Prince or Spawn after the battle ends.
I'd also argue against the multiple books idea. Just look at the current Chaos supplements, Black Legion in particular - £30 for 'here's a few new items plus you've got to take VotLW'. Great. Thanks.
ChazSexington wrote: Am I the only one who likes the Boon Table? I find it very Chaos-y! I don't mind the must challenge rule either. I'll admit it doesn't work well all Legions, but I think it's flavourful for say recently turned warbands whose leaders seek the approval of the gods. I think if it was made optional, as per Boon of Mutation, it would be better.
Champions of Chaos works (worked?) in Fantasy because in Fantasy Chaos characters will (would?) routinely mop the floor with almost everything they encountered.
In 40k? Outside of specific moments, being forced to challenge is usually a disadvantage. And the Boon Table is not "Chaos-y", it's "Jervis-y". A random table for the sake of random tables. Bring the mutations and chaos boons as options you pay for while making your list, and let your champion turn into Daemon Prince or Spawn after the battle ends.
Being forced to challenge is a disadvantage, I agree completely. It is a handicap because it reduces our options, but if we win we do gain bonuses - the opponent doesn't. The fluff behind it that makes sense - it's a proud CSM tradition harkening back to Primarchs calling each other out on Isstvan!
Crispy78 wrote:I'd also argue against the multiple books idea. Just look at the current Chaos supplements, Black Legion in particular - £30 for 'here's a few new items plus you've got to take VotLW'. Great. Thanks.
Depends on how the books were done. Nobody is asking for a optional Chaos Artefact lists and being forced to use certain units.
I love the idea of being forced into challenges. It just makes sense fluff wise. Though I'd prefer to either bind that to gods or make them character traits. For example, a champion of Khorne would never back down form a challenge and he's underlings would expect him to challenge too, lest he is seen as unworthy to follow.
Or maybe a system of character traits might work too. Like say, you want a martial character, and you would take this trait where he has to challenge and can't refuse in exchange for some melee buff or something along those lines. More than any other army, strong character matter for csm. So I would like to see a system where that is reflected in some way.
The boons on the other hand suck. I don't so much dislike the idea of getting buffed after winning a challenge, so much as I dislike what you get. It's often a worthless boon and sometimes even detrimental. Chaos is fickle and all, but there just isn't any place for getting punished in a game like this. Seeking and winning challenges is a good idea, but I don't like how they did it.
Especially on your hq's, those are supposed to already have received boons. You'd think that somebdoy that has fought for several thousand years non stop would have received some kind of recognition by the gods. Or you know, would know how to fight his battles (warlord traits), not to mention psychic powers. I'd be down with them letting csm choose these things as an army theme, or at the very least warlord traits in that sense. Of all those who have long life spans, these probably see the most battle no?
Is it silly to worry that Chaos Space Marines may not get a new codex this edition of 40k?
Although I'm not a veteran it appears to me that to overhaul CSM may require a change more radical than a new book. And therefore what could be worse is Chaos get the first new Codex in the new edition of the rules and then each one is subsequently stronger, as has been the case this edition.
Huron black heart wrote: Is it silly to worry that Chaos Space Marines may not get a new codex this edition of 40k?
Although I'm not a veteran it appears to me that to overhaul CSM may require a change more radical than a new book. And therefore what could be worse is Chaos get the first new Codex in the new edition of the rules and then each one is subsequently stronger, as has been the case this edition.
Nope, it's a pretty valid fear, since we've been turned into the 'test bed army' for our past 2 updates.
I get the feeling that the forthcoming new Thousand Sons plastic kit will give us a hint at what we can eventually expect for our next update... If the Sons get a new kit with 0 options and are left with the same unplayable rules, then odds are pretty solid that GW is going to keep us as "Codex: Imperial Punching Bag".
If however the new plastic set comes with new rules and a couple of options, then our 10+ years of suffering may finally come to an end, and our potential new codex may finally put us back on an even footing with the rest of the game.
Still, the pessimist in me is 99.9% expecting us to remain the lone trashcan level army in the game, because god forbid Little Timmy needs to wait until turn 3 before his Speeeesh Muhreeens get to effortlessly table us.
Compulsory challenges are quite bad. Because not all of the Chaos champions got into their positions of power by being brave......
Basically, I don't think you can make a single codex which covers all of the bases. We'd need one for traitor legions, who don't deserve new and shiny toys but deserve ancient technology that makes loyalist marines poop their power armour. And renegade marines who don't deserve ancient astartes poop making technology. But do deserve more modern technology.
Yeah, it's totally fluffy that a Thousand Sons sorcerer would challenge his enemies to single combat so that he can receive mutations from Tzeentch. I mean he wouldn't want his brain-dead automaton bodyguards who have no free will of their own and whose sole reason for existence is to preserve the life of their sorcerer to think that he's chicken, now would he? And everyone knows that there's nothing that Thousand Sons sorcerers love more than receiving mutations from Tzeentch.
I just a had a thought! There might actually be some hope for chaos! With eternal crusade out, the popularity of chaos marines might rise a bit, and knowing GW, being popular means being given special treatment, let's see if we can get some.
I'm just annoyed about how Cult Marines were handled. How I would've done it? Prepare for wishlisting!
1. Plague Marines have Poisoned (3+) on their knives AND Bolters/Pistols.
2. Berserker Marines are 20 points but come with Chain Axes standard, and gain Rending on their first round of combat.
3. Noise Marines are 19 each, but come standard with Sonic Blasters (now Assault 2) and we cut the cost of Blastmasters and Doom Sirens by 5 points.
4. Rubric Marines can buy Heavy Bolters and Autocannons, and get one additional roll on a table I haven't chosen yet.
welshhoppo wrote: Compulsory challenges are quite bad. Because not all of the Chaos champions got into their positions of power by being brave......
Basically, I don't think you can make a single codex which covers all of the bases. We'd need one for traitor legions, who don't deserve new and shiny toys but deserve ancient technology that makes loyalist marines poop their power armour. And renegade marines who don't deserve ancient astartes poop making technology. But do deserve more modern technology.
How about instead of having to challenge, and being forced to roll on the boon table, you instead only get to roll on the boon table if you win a challenge?
Make it a single D6 table where on each roll there is 3 boons to choose from. Turning into a spawn or prince should only happen in a different circumstance, perhaps something along the lines of your warlord slays the enemy warlord in a challenge.
Lastly a buff to Chaos champions is needed, Eldar for some reason have 2 wound exarchs with an invuln save and Chaos champions are actually not economically worth their points...
Rubric marines should lose inferno bolts and get a big pts drop. The sorcerer should be at least ML2, and have ridiculous awesome psychic powers. The rubrics should be purely ablative wounds for the sorcerer. Maybe even give them 2 wounds. Then they'd have a lot more going for them.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Rubric marines should lose inferno bolts and get a big pts drop. The sorcerer should be at least ML2, and have ridiculous awesome psychic powers. The rubrics should be purely ablative wounds for the sorcerer. Maybe even give them 2 wounds. Then they'd have a lot more going for them.
Or we change the MoT, get rid of SaP, give them Relentless and make them a non-force org unit (like 6E Honour Guard) and make them available as a "body guard" unit for MoT Sorcerers. Maybe make them assaulty... give them a Pseudo-Brotherhood of Psykers and give them all force weapons.
Konrax wrote: I think it's ridiculous that CSM will take 1+ year to get an update.
I'm probably going to start Bolt Action while my 10k in csm collect dust.
Considering that the old codex schedule could have 5 to 9 years between books this isn't that bad. it's the power creep that's the real issue.
Well it just upsets me that games workshops previous CEO had CSM down for another codex only update instead of overhauling the faction. It's clearly a choice made by the new CEO and that they once again had failed to recognize that there is a very large portion of players who play csm.
For a faction that is nearly as popular as marines yet gets 1/10th the attention that marines do, I would say they are failing to see the golden egg for what it is.
Konrax wrote: Lastly a buff to Chaos champions is needed, Eldar for some reason have 2 wound exarchs with an invuln save and Chaos champions are actually not economically worth their points...
I would remove the Aspiring Champions as a whole. Instead I'd bring back Lieutenants as a cheap, non force org HQ option, BS5 2 wounds and 3 attacks, base Ld9. That way if you expect a certain unit to get into close combat, you pay the points for an affordable close combat specialist who will give a significant edge to your unit. On the other hand, you don't have to pay extra points to give your Havocs an additional melee attack, same for suicidal terminator/raptor squads. I can understand all Loyalist units having sergeants due to command structures and all that, but it doesn't make much sense to keep such a rigid pattern for crazy spiky rogue marines.
I'd keep Champions of Chaos, just with non-mandatory challenges (unless perhaps MoK forcing you to accept enemy challenges, just that) and heavily simplify the Boon table to perhaps a 2D6 roll with minor boons (if double 1 nothing happens, if double 6 you roll again twice). Even better, remove the damn table entirely, revamp the boons and offer them as daemonic rewards for a points cost.
Thousand Sons need a complete overhaul. The Sorceror needs to cost no more than 30 points individually; the old excuse "He has a Force Weapon!" isn't valid anymore since GKs get them by the boatload, and they cost 20 points! imo he should only cost 25 points. Individual Rubrics should be 20 points a pop, have Ignore Cover, and their save should be invulnerable (Basically, cheaper, non-assaulty versions of Legion of the Damned). Also the Sorceror shouldn't be manditory, but having one in the squad removes Slow and Purposeful and replaces it with Relentless, so Rubrics would be kinda like Servitors. Finally, there needs to be a way to take an all-sorceror squad. There's the Librarius Conclave AND (again) GK squads that all effectively do the psychic phase harder than Tzeentch marines right now.
Plague Marines, I feel, are in a good place right now. They're decent and have a good amount of options. I do wish they'd return the "Death Guard Havocs" though, Plague Marines that take up a HS slot but bring 4 special weapons.
Khorne Berserkers need a complete overhaul. Chainaxes should be standard equipment, not something you should purchase. Mark of Khorne needs to go back to granting +1 attack and Run and Charge. Berserkers need to drop back to 20 points a pop. Also, we need Juggernaut-mounted Khorne Berserkers. This is loooong overdue.
Noise Marines are decent right now, they just need a points drop to keep up with the SM's points drop. 16 I feel is a good number. Also Close Combat Weapons, Bolt Pistols and Bolters should all be standard on them. As with the Death Guard, there should be a return of the "Noise Marine Havocs", where you can take 4 Blastmasters in a single squad of 5 in a HS slot or something. They also need to bring back the Sonic Dread in the core codex (and not leave it as a Forge World exclusive). Sonic Blasters should be assault weapons, not Salvo. If it must have two different firing modes, make at least one of them Assault and the other one Heavy, don't make the "runny" variant preclude assault.
Also Chosen need to go back to being badass again. I propose a full overhaul; make them the Chaos version of Paladins; each Chosen has full access to the armory that any normal character would, have 2 wounds each and WS5. These guys are a step down from being full fledged Chaos Lords, they should really show it. Alternatively, bring back Veteran Skills but only for these guys and still give them full access to the armory; make them the "do what you need" unit of Chaos.
Finally, we need Rhinos with assault ramps. Not even new vehicles, just Rhinos with assault ramps. Maybe make them open topped instead, so the rhinos are much more fragile, but more worth it, but it's needed. Most of the problems with the above units are mobility and the reason they got nerfed so hard was because of the introduction of the Assault Vehicle rule.
I love the idea of being forced into challenges. It just makes sense fluff wise.
It actually makes no sense fluff wise.
Most legions/warbands are too concerned with their own lives to throw them away meaninglessly. The fact that they have a Forced Challenges rule directly contradicts why they no longer have ATSKNF. They feal fear now, they aren't honour bound or willing to sacrifice themselves anymore. The only Legion I think you could make a strong argument for forced challenges is for World Eaters. And with them, they may be so lost to the butchers nails, they may not even understand anything beyond killing.
I'm not necessarily opposed to having some kind of boon table. But the catch is, If you make a boon table that people actually want to roll on, you won't need a rule that forces challenges because people will already want to challenge in order to roll on the table. It's like that stupid U2 album that they gave everyone for free on itunes, If they made good music I would have gotten the album, but they didn't and instead forced it down everyone's throat and people complained.
If they do a boon table make it simple, not D66. Not to mention about 90% of those gifts are useless and would never even come close to being useful in a game. Most of the time I just pass on rolling to avoid having to open my book, and when I do roll, I don't even remember what I got.
4 Charts, one for each of the gods, roll one die, 6 results. 1 is bad and 6 is amazeballs. No Spawndom, no Daemonic Ascension.
If you are undivided, you decide what chart to roll on.
So you Chaos goons want legion rules, eh? Sure we'll give you legion rules. And by "legion rules" I mean "removal of all special and heavy weapon options from Troops." There, happy?
I love the idea of being forced into challenges. It just makes sense fluff wise.
It actually makes no sense fluff wise.
Most legions/warbands are too concerned with their own lives to throw them away meaninglessly. The fact that they have a Forced Challenges rule directly contradicts why they no longer have ATSKNF. They feal fear now, they aren't honour bound or willing to sacrifice themselves anymore. The only Legion I think you could make a strong argument for forced challenges is for World Eaters. And with them, they may be so lost to the butchers nails, they may not even understand anything beyond killing.
I'm not necessarily opposed to having some kind of boon table. But the catch is, If you make a boon table that people actually want to roll on, you won't need a rule that forces challenges because people will already want to challenge in order to roll on the table. It's like that stupid U2 album that they gave everyone for free on itunes, If they made good music I would have gotten the album, but they didn't and instead forced it down everyone's throat and people complained.
If they do a boon table make it simple, not D66. Not to mention about 90% of those gifts are useless and would never even come close to being useful in a game. Most of the time I just pass on rolling to avoid having to open my book, and when I do roll, I don't even remember what I got.
4 Charts, one for each of the gods, roll one die, 6 results. 1 is bad and 6 is amazeballs. No Spawndom, no Daemonic Ascension.
If you are undivided, you decide what chart to roll on.
That's why I said I would prefer it was bound to gods or some system of character traits. They know fear, yes, but they are also proud warriors still. But csm leaders come in all kinds of colours, and forcing this on every single one is bad. I still like the idea as such though. And I would probably end up choosing it a lot if it was optional.
Forced challenges conflicts with the rest of their design. CSM don't have ATSKNF specifically because they're so self-serving that they'd rather run and save their own skins then fight an unwinnable battle for "muh glory". For what purpose then is an aspiring champion staring down a Hive Tyrant?
Aspiring Champion's should be the same cost of the rest of the squad's models and not be forced into challenges. The boon table can stay for flavor, or if it's too much of a net buff for AC's to go down in points and not have to challenge, change the reward for winning a challenge into something like the squad becomes stubborn for the rest of the game.
All I really want out of a CSM codex is it being able to playable against other armies. I don't want cheese, though I know we'll get it in some form.
Its been a pretty obvious design trend that with every recent codex update. Whatever model GW has recently remolded and resold at 200% their previous price or came out new is gonna be the hands down best option in the codex in most situations. Which is good news with the supposed rumors around for 1K sons players.
If they are doing a full overhaul of the model line like many are speculating, that means better rules all around for all the cult troops. Which are some of the oldest models in the line.
To be honest, as much as I'd like to put on my tinfoil hat and scream from the rooftops that GW hates Chaos, It only makes sense for the codex update to be taking this long if the model line is being redesigned. This is also assuming that GW does things that makes sense though. So take that with as much salt as you want.
Realistically, I foresee CSM getting an update as the either the last update of 7th or the first of 8th. Either option is pretty much a gamble, especially if the power level of the game changes between editions,
BlaxicanX wrote: Forced challenges conflicts with the rest of their design. CSM don't have ATSKNF specifically because they're so self-serving that they'd rather run and save their own skins then fight an unwinnable battle for "muh glory". For what purpose then is an aspiring champion staring down a Hive Tyrant?
Aspiring Champion's should be the same cost of the rest of the squad's models and not be forced into challenges. The boon table can stay for flavor, or if it's too much of a net buff for AC's to go down in points and not have to challenge, change the reward for winning a challenge into something like the squad becomes stubborn for the rest of the game.
That's the thing though, for some, achieving personal glory is the only reason worth living for. But I have to admit, I'm somewhat biased toward more martially oriented characters. And indeed, I imagine many an aspiring champion has failed to rise in rank (read: he died...or worse) precisely because they chose to do things beyond their reach. Obviously it makes little sense on a TSons sorcerer as has been pointed out, but yea, it does make sense fluff wise to me personally, just not on an army wide level.
Its been a pretty obvious design trend that with every recent codex update. Whatever model GW has recently remolded and resold at 200% their previous price or came out new is gonna be the hands down best option in the codex in most situations. Which is good news with the supposed rumors around for 1K sons players.
I'm sick and fething tired of this slowed "argument"
For every new model that has amazballs rule, you got another new model that came out at the same time and has utterly worthless rules.
GW have a lot of problems, but intentionally making OP rules for new models is not one of them. they just make enough mistakes so that OP choices come up. for some reason people seem to forget all the lousy choices ever game out though.
Its been a pretty obvious design trend that with every recent codex update. Whatever model GW has recently remolded and resold at 200% their previous price or came out new is gonna be the hands down best option in the codex in most situations. Which is good news with the supposed rumors around for 1K sons players.
I'm sick and fething tired of this slowed "argument"
For every new model that has amazballs rule, you got another new model that came out at the same time and has utterly worthless rules.
GW have a lot of problems, but intentionally making OP rules for new models is not one of them. they just make enough mistakes so that OP choices come up. for some reason people seem to forget all the lousy choices ever game out though.
Yeah, I totally agree with this.
It's almost like GW has a boon table of sorts when they create new units and codices.
Roll a d66. Oh look, Vect is gone!
Roll a d66. Oh snap, Wulfen can run and charge!
Roll a d66. Looks like Skulltaker can't buy a juggernaut any more!
3.) There have been increasing hints that GW wants to get rid of Slaanesh altogether, as his/her theme of sex, lust and excess are not exactly wholesome ideas for branching out into the mainstream (but for some reason gore, disease and body horror are). However doing so would be to take out a huge chunk of the estabilished fluff and literally negate 1/4th of the entire chaos army altogether, so again they're not exactly sure of what they're gonna do.
Well, I'll grant you the first two but the third isn't even remotely true. As much as some may wish it otherwise. Even in AOS they have backed of the debauchery or excess not even a bit. The prince will be back.
I think the main reason that its taking so long is that there is no advocate for Chaos Marines on the Design Team. Even the one that have chaos marine armies have other pet armies they like better...cough...Phill Kelly...cough That and they don't know how to brand them. Removing Chaos Daemons removed allot of what made CSM special. If you go by the current codex, they though daemon engines were the answer. So CSM are kind of directionless right now.
Alas, nowadays really enemies of the Imperium are those filthy Xenos. Chaos Marines are those poor relations one doesn't speak of in polite company.
I love the idea of being forced into challenges. It just makes sense fluff wise.
It actually makes no sense fluff wise.
Most legions/warbands are too concerned with their own lives to throw them away meaninglessly. The fact that they have a Forced Challenges rule directly contradicts why they no longer have ATSKNF. They feal fear now, they aren't honour bound or willing to sacrifice themselves anymore. The only Legion I think you could make a strong argument for forced challenges is for World Eaters. And with them, they may be so lost to the butchers nails, they may not even understand anything beyond killing.
I'm not necessarily opposed to having some kind of boon table. But the catch is, If you make a boon table that people actually want to roll on, you won't need a rule that forces challenges because people will already want to challenge in order to roll on the table. It's like that stupid U2 album that they gave everyone for free on itunes, If they made good music I would have gotten the album, but they didn't and instead forced it down everyone's throat and people complained.
If they do a boon table make it simple, not D66. Not to mention about 90% of those gifts are useless and would never even come close to being useful in a game. Most of the time I just pass on rolling to avoid having to open my book, and when I do roll, I don't even remember what I got.
4 Charts, one for each of the gods, roll one die, 6 results. 1 is bad and 6 is amazeballs. No Spawndom, no Daemonic Ascension.
If you are undivided, you decide what chart to roll on.
For crazy, Chaos-worshipping warrior seeking the approval of the gods it makes sense. I'm not a big fan of mandatory challenges, but boons for slaying people in the name of Chaos is fluffy.
Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer challenges to be optional, but I'd love to keep boons. I'm not too fussed with the D66, a simplification would be nice though, but I love Spawndom and Daemonic Possession.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Rubric marines should lose inferno bolts and get a big pts drop. The sorcerer should be at least ML2, and have ridiculous awesome psychic powers. The rubrics should be purely ablative wounds for the sorcerer. Maybe even give them 2 wounds. Then they'd have a lot more going for them.
Or we change the MoT, get rid of SaP, give them Relentless and make them a non-force org unit (like 6E Honour Guard) and make them available as a "body guard" unit for MoT Sorcerers. Maybe make them assaulty... give them a Pseudo-Brotherhood of Psykers and give them all force weapons.
Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.
I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,
thepowerfulwill wrote: Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.
I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,
If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Seeing as how Daemon kin used a Possessed tax, I'm sure CSM will have to take some sort of Terminator tax as well... or worse Chosen!
thepowerfulwill wrote: Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.
I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,
If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.
Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.
The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.
I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,
If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.
Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.
The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.
Yeah, if you kill enough SM sergeants and roll lucky enough on the table, your Chaos Lord could even be the equal of a SM Chapter Master!
thepowerfulwill wrote: Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.
I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,
If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.
Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.
The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.
Yeah, if you kill enough SM sergeants and roll lucky enough on the table, your Chaos Lord could even be the equal of a SM Chapter Master!
Not quite... You're forgetting that Chapter Masters will naturally come with upgrades, at which point, they can still lord it over even a 10-times blessed Chaos Lord.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.
I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,
If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.
Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.
The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.
Yeah, if you kill enough SM sergeants and roll lucky enough on the table, your Chaos Lord could even be the equal of a SM Chapter Master!
Not quite... You're forgetting that Chapter Masters will naturally come with upgrades, at which point, they can still lord it over even a 10-times blessed Chaos Lord.
Except you're comparing a Chaos Lord to a Chapter Master when Lords have always been the counterpart to Captains.
thepowerfulwill wrote: Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.
I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,
If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.
Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.
The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.
Yeah, if you kill enough SM sergeants and roll lucky enough on the table, your Chaos Lord could even be the equal of a SM Chapter Master!
Not quite... You're forgetting that Chapter Masters will naturally come with upgrades, at which point, they can still lord it over even a 10-times blessed Chaos Lord.
Except you're comparing a Chaos Lord to a Chapter Master when Lords have always been the counterpart to Captains.
Exactly. Everyone knows that Abaddon is the Chapter Master of the CSM.
I have an entire notebook filled with crazy ideas for this.
First off, I do NOT want 6 different books. I think you can do a good job with one big book along the lines of the size of the loyalist book but maybe cut some fluff to add in some of the new rules. The core book would be the "Generic Warbands" like it is now. From there you can decide to just stick to your basic generic war band OR to pick a Legion and build an army based on the Legion rules. The next section would be the "Lost and Damned" section and include a small group of units/vehicles for cultists and Renegade guard units and a basic set of Dark Mechanics rules to add to your list. Finally, you would have the God's Specific section. This would have a basic set of rules and some additional new units to run mono dedicated lists.
This way, there would still be supplements that go into more detail (like Demonkin), but you could still play basically anything out of one book.
Some specific ideas I've had:
some people like the boon table. Almost everyone hates "champions of chaos". So dump the rule and keep the table for the one upgrade you can buy for a chance to roll on it. Make it optional though. As constructed it makes no sense. There is not one single situation in which becoming a demon prince should make you WORSE than you were before you became a prince. Yet in almost every case, I'd rather keep the character I built rather than make him a generic demon prince.
Warpsmith:
Lower his points and bring him a little more in line with how the loyalist version works so that he becomes useful
Dark Apostle:
Dump his entry. Completely. It's a total fail on every level. Instead, make this an upgrade to the Chaos Lord entry. It would allow your Lord to function like the Dark Apostles in the fluff. It would allow him to take Psychic powers and would also have some rules to allow better integration of Demons. For example, imagine if, when you roll to summon demons, you could use a unit of Cultists as homing beacons. With a successful casting, your unit of cultists is replaced with the unit of Bloodletters you just summoned.
Mutilators:
Lower the points a little and dump SnP
Warp Talons:
Allow them to charge when they arrive. You could probably keep the points "as is" if you give them this ability.
Defiler:
Make this "customizable". As currently constructed, this unit is way over-priced and completely schizophrenic. Make the base unit a bare bones selection with selectable weapon options so that you can decide if it will be built of CC, shooting, or some combination.
Vehicles:
New Land Raider options and some cheaper "chaos" type transports including things like Dreadclaws.
Some formations that take advantage of the awesome CSM fast attack slot.
Give us some ways to have slightly more reliable deep-strike as well and then we're good imo.
Anything Khorne-related that they fix in this hypothetical new CSM dex better carry over into Khorne Daemonkin, either through FAQ's or campaign supplements.
As far as generic HQ's go. I'd like a return to how 3.5 had it with just two basic choices. A chaos lord and a lieutenant which then could be upgraded in the manner one saw fit whether it be a warsmith, a sorceror and so on and so forth. So while the number of HQ choices would decrease, there would still be all the variety one could hope for more or less.
Because half the problem in CSM, is that its not actually CSM.
You got human worshippers, a LOT of darkmech, multiple daemon hybrids, few true daemons, cults and then just a bit of actual marines.
That's no CSM codex, that's an entire alliance. and then you got a codex for actual daemons.
Now, chaos is not like imperial, so the same splitting won't work, but you NEED splitting in order for it to function.
And just like how DA and BA and all other marines have similar lines but different specialities, so should chaos.
5 factions.
Khorne daemonkin (needs some upgrades, and a few extras)
Tzeentch forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Nurgle forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Slannesh forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Tratior armies (nothing more god specific than marks, having the biggest "generic" armory around, with "black legion and friends" being the "default" much like ultramarines are the codex marines "default", and other legions/factions getting their own spinoffs later)
THATS how to fix chaos. well, that's step one, naturally each codex will need its own flavor and specialties, and the faction as a whole needs to bring many of its units up to par (especially those origination from CSM)
As for the units you listed.
Warpsmith-no. he's a "reverse techmarine" on purpose. its a big theme of chaos marines of doing the same things the other way around. he might need to be brought a bit up, but so does all chaos marines.
Apostle-very much not. he just needs to get a more unique role. leading the human masses is where he belongs. he just needs to be more relevant at that role (bigger bubble, dishing out an ability that marines don't care for, but the humans do)
Mutilators-actually, no. I disagree there. CSM has so many assault units, that having just another cheap bunch to throw forward will add nothing to the codex. if anything, rather than removing their weaknesses, give them unique strength-being absurdly hard to kill, and do terrifying damage. that way, you got yourself a new unit niche-zone control. its easy to avoid them, but emperor protects if you willingly get anywhere near them.
Warp talons-no. charge when dive can be a formation power, but not built in. having a bigger "flash" radius, maybe do a bit of damage attached, or a more accurate drop can be good, as it makes the DS a tactical choice to help your OTHER assault units. just charging from DS gives little place for meaningful choices, for both sides. but having the flash itself be meaningful, is a whole other story.
Defiler-the derpy schizophrenic madness is part of the appeal. he just need to be brought up to match the defensive profile of either his daemon counterpart grinder, or the imperial counterpart dune crawler. and cost less, he costs WAY too much, as he pays full price for each skill he ahs, not counting the fact he can't use them all at once. (common problem with chaos actually)
Vehicles-Dreadclaws seem out of place for chaos for some reason. not wrong theme, but wrong tactics. they don't do the whole "get in, do mission, get out" thing marines are supposed to, they go to war. land raiders could use a touch up though. maybe some razorback variant too.
But for heavens sake, not reliable deep strike on demand. the marine pods are infuriating enough on how much they throw positioning concerns off the window. we need less of these mechanics, not more.
Because half the problem in CSM, is that its not actually CSM.
You got human worshippers, a LOT of darkmech, multiple daemon hybrids, few true daemons, cults and then just a bit of actual marines.
That's no CSM codex, that's an entire alliance. and then you got a codex for actual daemons.
Now, chaos is not like imperial, so the same splitting won't work, but you NEED splitting in order for it to function.
And just like how DA and BA and all other marines have similar lines but different specialities, so should chaos.
5 factions.
Khorne daemonkin (needs some upgrades, and a few extras)
Tzeentch forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Nurgle forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Slannesh forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Tratior armies (nothing more god specific than marks, having the biggest "generic" armory around, with "black legion and friends" being the "default" much like ultramarines are the codex marines "default", and other legions/factions getting their own spinoffs later)
THATS how to fix chaos. well, that's step one, naturally each codex will need its own flavor and specialties, and the faction as a whole needs to bring many of its units up to par (especially those origination from CSM)
That's not how you fix Chaos IMO. That's how you make it so that I have to spend minimum $300 and carry around ten pounds of books or an expensive tablet just to play one army. My approach isn't saying "One book and NO supplements". It's saying one book that allows you to field almost anything you want. It's just that some of it would be more basic. You could still have supplements for more in depth and focused lists. You just wouldn't HAVE to have those to play an army.
As for Demons - Yes, there is a Demon book. That's why I didn't mention having a Demon section. The problem is that there's ZERO synergy between the two books. Adding things like the rule I mentioned for the Dark Apostle would just help connect them a little better.
Warpsmith-no. he's a "reverse techmarine" on purpose. its a big theme of chaos marines of doing the same things the other way around. he might need to be brought a bit up, but so does all chaos marines.
He's a "reverse tech marine" in that Techmarines are generally decent at what they do. He sucks. My point wasn't to necessarily duplicate a Techmarine skill for skill. It was more that right now he has a lot of abilities that are diametrically opposed to one another and he's significantly over-costed.
Apostle-very much not. he just needs to get a more unique role. leading the human masses is where he belongs. he just needs to be more relevant at that role (bigger bubble, dishing out an ability that marines don't care for, but the humans do)
To each his own here. I think that's a very boring role better performed by a traitor Commissar or some such and not by a MEQ unit that is (like so many things in this book) over-costed. This one's more a matter of personal preference though. I just really like the Dark Apostles from the fluff and I tend to like things turned up to 11. So for me, personally, the Apostle entry is currently yawn inducing. The more I think about it, the weirder it gets too. It's a really good example of how disconnected everything at GW is. You have the Word Bearers trilogy (which is one of the first places we really see Dark Apostles fluff-wise, and certainly one of the most in-depth) where DA's lead entire Word Bearer armies, have floating demonic escorts, cast Psychic powers and are generally towering pillars of chaotic bad ass, and then you have the codex Dark Apostles. Who up your leadership and improve your moral. Slightly. They, coincidentally help with the same stat that got lowered from the last edition. If the two ever met IRL it would be hilarious.
Trilogy DA:
"I'm a towering inferno of power and awe. I'm a direct portal through which the hands of the gods themselves function!"
Codex DA:
"That's cool. I um ... I uh ... do this thing ... where the people around me use my LD score ... It's great. Until someone hits me with that power that drops my LD score....huh? no. Why? What's a Demon?"
Mutilators-actually, no. I disagree there. CSM has so many assault units, that having just another cheap bunch to throw forward will add nothing to the codex. if anything, rather than removing their weaknesses, give them unique strength-being absurdly hard to kill, and do terrifying damage. that way, you got yourself a new unit niche-zone control. its easy to avoid them, but emperor protects if you willingly get anywhere near them.
That would work well IMO. I just want them to not be ... what they currently are. lol The only issue is that, in this case, all of those great upgrades you mention are totally wasted unless you dump S&P or give us better deep-striking. You don't appear to like either of those options so we'd be left with a easily ignored unit that has no reliable delivery method.
I feel like a lot of your changes aren't really changing anything. You end up making things slightly less terrible, or the same but different. CSM really need a bigger overhaul than that.
Warp talons-no. charge when dive can be a formation power, but not built in. having a bigger "flash" radius, maybe do a bit of damage attached, or a more accurate drop can be good, as it makes the DS a tactical choice to help your OTHER assault units. just charging from DS gives little place for meaningful choices, for both sides. but having the flash itself be meaningful, is a whole other story.
So they land, the flash goes off, is more "meaningful", then the very expensive unit gets shot off the board. Meh. I don't think that change helps them at all. As far as the blast goes, nothing short of making it a "D" blast is really going to help them and I'm certainly not advocating for more D weapons. lol You could argue that I'm wrong in saying the points could stay the same, but really, the only way to really make these guys truly useful is to allow for that charge on deep strike. That's the only other thing that makes the blind flash useful. It would be great to drop them on Interceptor units that get higher BS, etc.
Defiler-the derpy schizophrenic madness is part of the appeal. he just need to be brought up to match the defensive profile of either his daemon counterpart grinder, or the imperial counterpart dune crawler. and cost less, he costs WAY too much, as he pays full price for each skill he ahs, not counting the fact he can't use them all at once. (common problem with chaos actually)
IMO lowering the price but not really changing anything other than the defensive profile won't fix him. It will just make him suck slightly less.
But for heavens sake, not reliable deep strike on demand. the marine pods are infuriating enough on how much they throw positioning concerns off the window. we need less of these mechanics, not more.
I'm not saying "automatic on demand". I'm just saying something more than "If you take this relic, get into CC AND kill something by the time your stuff comes in, it might not scatter". It's ridiculous that an army which has been in the warp for all these years doesn't have one or two other ways to improve the deep strike accuracy. Plus, you can say we need less of this, but the game is trending towards everyone having MORE. So us not getting it would just be ... well more of the same really. lol
So, an idea I just had for handling Land Raiders. First, Land Raiders are priced horribly across all codexes, paying a premium for being heavily armored assault transports saddled with a schizophrenic mix of long and short range weapons (in most cases). But they're awful in the CSM codex: just look at the variety of Land Raiders that existed in 30k, look at how little the Dark Mechanicus care about violating STCs, and then look at the single crappy Land Raider variant CSMs get, and with a broken machine spirit to boot.
Instead I'd love to see the formal Land Raider variants get thrown out the window for CSM. Make them totally customizable instead. Millennia of service to the Dark Gods have given plenty of time for tinkering and mutating. There should be three "base" variants:
Land Raider "Infernus"
- options are geared toward assault, increased transport capacity, and short range shooting. A few long range options come cheap.
Land Raider "Diabolus"
- options are geared toward long range shooting and reduced transport capacity. A few short range options come cheap.
Land Raider "Damnatus"
- a mix of long and short range options that will always result in a compromised design, but at a cheaper price in the end (looking at you, Land Raider Phobos)
You could set this up such that picking the right options ends up building existing variants for a more reasonable price, with the ability to build a custom variant with greater synergy for a higher price. This would also motivate a new CSM Land Raider box with a wider variety of options, including weapon options loyalists don't get, and interesting mutations and god-specific upgrades.
I really like that approach. It would allow for the "randomness" Chaos is suppose to have in that each player is going to bring something different, but it does so without a stupid random chart. It also addresses a lot of the issues Land Raiders currently have AND would be very fluffy IMO.
Regarding some of the hugely obvious "turdtastic" units we're currently saddled with;
1. Dark Apostle.
- Allow them to access the likes of Termie armour/Bike/Jump pack for feth's sake, so that they can actually give their Zealot ability to various types of units.
- Allow the option to upgrade to a Mastery Lv1 Psyker. (no Force weapon though)
- Return the Demagogue skill & give a Ld-boosting bubble to units around them, while inflicting a minor Ld penalty to enemy units they're in contact with. (which would also make them synergise better with 'Fear' causing units!)
2. Warpsmith.
- Lower his pts cost.
- Allow the option to upgrade to a Mastery Lv1 Psyker, but limit him to only Telekenesis or the relevant God lore if marked.
3. Mutilators.
- Either remove SaP from them, or else boost their stats so that they're more akin to Assault Cents +1, especially when marked! They lose out on the fire support that Assault Cents get, hence they should be better at well, mutilating things when they do catch someone!
4. Warptalons.
- For gak's sake, why the flying aren't these guys Fearless!?! Literally, they're the only 'Daemon' unit in the entire game that poops their armour and runs away at the slightest little mishap! - Warpflame Strike needs to actually do something... 'useful'.
- Change up their stats (alongside Possessed) and make them more akin to the new Wulfen. These guys are psychopathic Space Marines with the added power of a raging warp entity bound within their flesh. They should be among the stronger assault specialists in the game, with the drawback that you can't attack IC's to them due to their daemonic nature.
Bring the same changes over the Possessed as well... No IC support, but absolutely brutal in assaults if/when they get there.
5. Deflier.
- Screw all those 'Imperial weapons with spikes!' BS. Give them proper 'daemonic' weapon akin to what the Fiends, Drakes, Khannons & 'Grinders get... Make the Battle Cannon something like a 'Balecannon' that's high strength, ap4/5, Ignores Cover and reduces Ld to units that suffer casualties.
In place of a Heavy flamer, make it a daemonic flame cannon that has 'Torrent' and 'Soul Blaze' in return for say S6/ap5.
Etc, etc... Basically, make it truly a uniquely Chaos vehicle with various options players can customise to taste.
- Cut it's pts cost obviously. Its current 200pts price tag is a complete joke.
I think we're failing to address the main problem facing CSM. The problem is thus: they are the archnemesis of the game's golden boys, the Space Marines. GW will never again allow CSM to threaten the game's primary faction. This happened once before with the CSM 3.5 dex and ever since GW have been scared to death of giving CSM anything that even faintly smells halfway powerful lest it happen again.
Luckily for GW (and unluckily for CSM players) SM and CSM share a statline and many similarities in unit composition and equipment. This makes it very easy to ensure CSM are always weaker - just take a comparable SM unit or option, subtract bonuses/special rules and add points.
Because of this CSM are doomed to forever be the victims of overly timid design. The units and options SM get put a hard upper limit on what CSM can get since each CSM unit/option must be strictly worse than its SM equivalent. For those options where no direct equivalent exists, GW will tend to overcompensate with the underpowering, building in a hefty margin of error just to make sure they don't give CSM something too strong by mistake (a pretty significant risk given the quality/quantity of their "playtesting").
To rectify this CSM need the following special rule:
The Archenemy: If your army contains any models with the Chaos Space Marines faction then all enemy Space Marine models gain the Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) and Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines) special rules. Chaos Space Marines may never control or contest objectives within 3" of a Space Marine model.
So the idea is if CSM always need to be at a disadvantage vs SM then give them a disadvantage vs SM but only vs SM. Then at least they can be strong against everyone else.
Now with that out of the way we can talk about finally giving CSM some good stuff.
More reliability from things like the chaos boon table or possessed, dont get punished for having a chance to get a basic daemon prince that lost the 100 pts of upgrade you gave your lord, or worse yet a spawn.
The fact these things exist at all is an issue in my book. I'm a great advocate for player agency over random tables (as I'm sure most are) and contrary to what GW tries to force feed us, random tables do not encourage forging the narrative.
Spoiler:
If I wanted to forge a narrative, I'd give my Lord a tentacle for an arm (for instance.) I'd model that on the miniature, and I'd select it at as an option whenever I fielded the model, it could give him +1A, act as a 2nd melee weapon, impose -1A in a challenge, there'd be all sorts of ways to implement it that made it useful without breaking the game or requiring too high a points cost. My narrative would be that he lost his original arm in a duel with a loyalist but ultimately emerged victorious and so was rewarded with a replacement by his patron God.
As it stands, I can model it, I can have a reason for it, but every game he can swing wildly in what that very same boon does functionally on the table, many of which would have little bearing on the detail and effort I'd put into the model and the backstory. This isn't forging the narrative, this is breaking immersion. Why, given the obvious presence of a tentacle for an arm, is my Lord Stubborn?
Same goes for the Possessed. The best reference we have for what it's like for a Possessed day to day are the HH series. Now, in that context an individual Marine is inhabited by an individual entity with, while far ranging and personal, a fixed set of attributes. While they can appear somewhere between quite normal and full Daemon depending on circumstance, they either have wings, or don't etc etc.
Much better to have a range of upgrades where you can make an informed tactical choice about the unit's role, pay the points, model the minis and get on with it than have them roll exactly the right result for the situation, be in the middle of kicking arse, then all of a sudden change their mind and do something completely different and totally inappropriate 'cause Chaos!
If I ever meet Jervis, I'll be tempted to stuff a collection of random tables into one of his orifices, but I'll be sure to roll a D6 to determine which one...
You've hit the nail on the head with those points. In the black codex (2002 - 3rd edition?), the possessed had the option to choose an ability such as flight or mutation for a certain points cost. This allowed one to do exactly as you described - pick a style, model it, and plan a strategy.
I think that was my favourite codex, mainly because it was so easy to read. Instead of having a description of every unit, then the rules for every unit, and wargear scattered across three different sections (seriously, why?), as they are currently, everything about a unit was in one place, and there were those lovely sections for the main legions, plus the various 'books' of the gods.
The chosen were great, because of the flexibility of the option. It was slightly complex, but I liked the idea of having some terminators, some champions, and so on, in one unit. Very chaotic.
My favourite thing about it, however, and the thing I'd most want back is the 'there can be only one' element of the chaos lord, where you buy a lord, and then, if you want a prince, you upgrade him with 50pts of daemonic gifts. I think this better reflected the gradual mutation process and was totally unique. It gave me some fantastic modelling ideas in terms of trying to represent lords in various stages of daemonhood, and made for a very flexible unit.
By the way, what the hell is a decurion? I keep reading this word and have no idea what it means, except as a Roman cavalry officer!
personaly i don't mind the Boon table, the problem is that its bloated with useless stuff.
Replace it with the Path to Glory Boon chart, this one is short, better and have Gods specific boons.
Also give something to characters in Challenge, its their thing, they should be better then a randiom smuck at it.
Like prefered ennemy and "Parry"; for each succesfull hit the Champion makes, he can reroll 1 save dice, if he does, that attack is lost" or something like that.
Giving your lord bonuses for every challenge it wins is a good idea at its core. Making it apply to too many characters might get messy to keep track of and making it compulsory would be too much of a drawback for lords not kitted totally for close combat. So the ideal would be some kind of bonus system you actively want to risk your lord for, if you're geared for fighting in hand-to-hand.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: The units and options SM get put a hard upper limit on what CSM can get since each CSM unit/option must be strictly worse than its SM equivalent.
I think people are are kind of working under the assumption that GW would, instead, do a good thing. The best thing to do under your assumption would be to simply stop playing the game, wait for GW to finally and justly go under and then snap up whatever models you wanted during the clearance so you've got plenty to mess around with for older or custom editions of 40K.
But tbh I kinda wish FW just makes their book instead of GW. I want this because after seeing the love they put into IA: 13 and the detail of attention to them, I think the DM would still hold the manufacturing of HH units due to being free of the constraints of the Mechanicus and the Omnisiah I can see these and more corrupted variants that I think FW could defiantly pull off a lot more than the GW design Studio imo.
Thalax along with my 40kNL? Oh yes please..
As for the boon chart I agree a simplification would be nicer with just benefits, because whilst Chaos are fickle we are entering a new direction that has been developing over time where we are seeing more books and updates with lots of befits but no downsides (e.g Wulfen get to assault on your turn and so on.) simply adding downsides on the stigma of "the ch0z are fiklz" would be insulting imo, when other factions have risky stuff in fluff but we never see the "risk" part and just the benefits.
By the way, what the hell is a decurion? I keep reading this word and have no idea what it means, except as a Roman cavalry officer!
Its the first of these formation based FOC that use formations instead of unit entries, other example being the Gladius Strike Force. The only one actually called Decurion is the Necron one, but the name stuck somehow and now we have terrible names like "Orkcurion" and Decurion becoming a generic term for the style of the FOC.
I wanna see a Juggernaught unit, Similar to SW Thunderwolf Cavalry
Some Better Relics
A 'Daemon Shield' which is basically a Storm Shield
Warp Talons get Daemon, and are AP2
Chaos Lord/Sorceror with Jump Pack unlocks raptors for troops
Something similar to ATSKNF, Like they Auto Rally, but are NOT immune to fear
Ahriman Points Decrease
Librarius Conclave Equilivent that can take Ahriman
Formation consisting of Warp Talons and Raptors
Formation Consisting of 'God Squads' (Noise Marines,Thousand sons ect)
Formation that draws the best from each god (Kharn and Beserkers, Lucius and Noise Marines ect)
Detachment with 6 different buffs, depending on which God all units have (Or mix-n-Match and Unaligned, hence the '6' different buffs) however all units must have the same mark if a god is chosen, no marks if no god is chosen, or all units must take a mark, but the detachment must include all 4 marks
DOOMRIDER to return (and buffed)
Just a few things which would make CSM great again!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.
The codex is fine, you just need to tweak your tactics...
Nah just kidding. In all seriousness though, It's easy to see that chaos need an overhaul, I'm sure they will get to it eventually, but it is frustrating to see the usual suspects getting new codices or campaign books while the likes of chaos languish with out of date books. I'm not a chaos player, but I'd love to see a strong chaos faction. They are supposed to be the big bad, along with the orks and the tyranids, they are the ones who are supposed to be the biggest threats to the Galaxy, yet the three of them have the weakest books.
For what it's worth here are a couple of things I think they should do.
Veterans of the long war should become a unit, not just a rule. Millennia old legionnaires that have spent so long in the warp that there's barely anything of their humanity left. Marines using ancient armour, and ancient weapons. Ghosts of a bygone age reeking havoc on the battle field.
Then have a seperate unit for the likes of Hurons renegades etc.
Have cultists for each God, with interesting and fun special abilities and stat lines. Not just a basic cultist unit. Imagine a horde of zombie cultists akin to the ones faced by the Luna wolves on that moon in the second or third heresy book. Or blood crazy Khorne cultists armed with chain axes and eviscerators.
General Kroll wrote: Have cultists for each God, with interesting and fun special abilities and stat lines. Not just a basic cultist unit. Imagine a horde of zombie cultists akin to the ones faced by the Luna wolves on that moon in the second or third heresy book. Or blood crazy Khorne cultists armed with chain axes and eviscerators.
Chaos has so much potential to be awesome.
Nice idea! That would be a lot of fun! The Grey Knights Omnibus contained an army of khorne cultists and an army of dark mechanicus cultists, so I imagine something like that.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.
I think that's because more and more people are catching onto GW rules-BS.
Hopefully a dying trend
Don't you know slaanesh already provides us with perfect tactics?
But on a serious note, what would be fun is if we got some upgrade for the human cultists, had an option for more advanced human warriors with flak armor.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.
I think that's because more and more people are catching onto GW rules-BS.
Hopefully a dying trend
Don't you know slaanesh already provides us with perfect tactics?
But on a serious note, what would be fun is if we got some upgrade for the human cultists, had an option for more advanced human warriors with flak armor.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.
I think that's because more and more people are catching onto GW rules-BS.
Hopefully a dying trend
Don't you know slaanesh already provides us with perfect tactics?
But on a serious note, what would be fun is if we got some upgrade for the human cultists, had an option for more advanced human warriors with flak armor.
Storm Shields as they are now make me angry. Nothing in this game should be allowed to provide a 3++ save on its own. I wouldn't mind if Storm Shields actually gave +2 to Invul Saves, that way a Terminator with a Storm Shield would get the 3++, but people on a 'mere' power armor like Stupidname Furry Cavalry would be reduced to 5++.
If that were the case, I would be positive towards a Daemon Shield which granted +1 to Invul saves and counted as an additional CCW for assault purposes. Some slightly more powerful (and expensive) versions could exist for each one of the Gods, only available to marked CSM.
Warp Talons get Daemon, and are AP2
I'd swear they are Daemons already. AP2 would be too much however. Warp Talons already fulfill the "marine meat grinder" role, the issue is they are brutally overpriced for what they can actually do in the game. And their special snowflake rule (Blind) is an unfunny joke.
Chaos Lord/Sorceror with Jump Pack unlocks raptors for troops
Legion Rules instead for Night Lords, with four FA slots but a single HS one. As in 3.5.
Something similar to ATSKNF, Like they Auto Rally, but are NOT immune to fear
I hate ATSKNF and similar unneeded snowflake rules. Actually the Veterans of the Long War option already fulfills that issue in my eyes.
Rosebuddy wrote: The best thing to do under your assumption would be to simply stop playing the game, wait for GW to finally and justly go under and then snap up whatever models you wanted during the clearance so you've got plenty to mess around with for older or custom editions of 40K.
Rosebuddy wrote: The best thing to do under your assumption would be to simply stop playing the game, wait for GW to finally and justly go under and then snap up whatever models you wanted during the clearance so you've got plenty to mess around with for older or custom editions of 40K.
Exactly...
That seems... A little extreme... Personally I haven't found it hard to find people who will play older editions, provided they have the older books.
There's several of us locally who aren't playing right now because of the mess the game is in (from our perspective) and older editions are being mooted.
Personally, I think 5th with current codexes, HP, no formations and a mod to D weapons is workable, but only because we can trust the Eldar player not to be a douche.
Although he has just bought a LOT of Warp Spiders...
They're free bonuses for no cost, they won't be compatible with a trad 5th CAD only list building structure and they're just an unneeded complication. Not to mention at time of writing access isn't a level playing field.
If someone wants to run something fluffy for reasons other than screwing the other player over with a legion of free stuff, we'll be fine with it.
Plastic dread claws in the main dex would be a great addition. Also the ability to make MoK Rhinos into assault vehicles. Other than that, points drops pretty much everywhere and the ability to squadron vehicles and/or dinobots. Some way to get your HQ a 2+ armor save would be nice, or especially a 3+ ward (other than MoT).
Storm Shields as they are now make me angry. Nothing in this game should be allowed to provide a 3++ save on its own. I wouldn't mind if Storm Shields actually gave +2 to Invul Saves, that way a Terminator with a Storm Shield would get the 3++, but people on a 'mere' power armor like Stupidname Furry Cavalry would be reduced to 5++.
If that were the case, I would be positive towards a Daemon Shield which granted +1 to Invul saves and counted as an additional CCW for assault purposes. Some slightly more powerful (and expensive) versions could exist for each one of the Gods, only available to marked CSM.
Warp Talons get Daemon, and are AP2
I'd swear they are Daemons already. AP2 would be too much however. Warp Talons already fulfill the "marine meat grinder" role, the issue is they are brutally overpriced for what they can actually do in the game. And their special snowflake rule (Blind) is an unfunny joke.
Chaos Lord/Sorceror with Jump Pack unlocks raptors for troops
Legion Rules instead for Night Lords, with four FA slots but a single HS one. As in 3.5.
Something similar to ATSKNF, Like they Auto Rally, but are NOT immune to fear
I hate ATSKNF and similar unneeded snowflake rules. Actually the Veterans of the Long War option already fulfills that issue in my eyes.
DOOMRIDER to return (and buffed)
Yes please.
Always though that a Chaos Shield could give a 4++ save or a Daemon Ward save that could be upped by things like grimoire and stuff.
A Basic could be 4++, count as a CCW and shields could be possesed by a Daemon of X and give further effect.
-Bloodletter; either allows the models to sprint+assault or make HoW hits Str6 Ap4.
-Plaquebearer; units assaulted by this model cannot fire in Overwatch.
-Daemonette; ennemy models cannot fall back and the model count as been equiped with grenades.
-Blue Horror; reroll failed invul saves of 1.
Doomrider is the only Slaanesh model i can tolerate, would like to see a detachement with him and Chaos bikers.
Would have Ws/BS of 8 Str and T of 6, move as a jetbike, Smash rule and some other stuff, if he hovers over ennelmy unit, one of those takes D3+1 hits resolved at Doomrider's Strength and AP value.
Veteran of the Long War could be modified to reflect the bitter nature of CSM; gives prefered ennemy "IoM" and " Taking you with Us!"; if a CSM as to fall back and is destroyed because of a sweeping advance, before, taking the models of the table, choose One of the following;
-the CSm unit can deliver a melee attack Vs the sweeping unit, they use their normal amounts of attacks and rules/wargear, they resolve their hits with a -1 on their WS.
-The CSM unit can resolve a shooting attack Vs the sweeping unit, they can use their wargear/rules as normal, it counts as a normal shooting attack, but they resolve those with a malus of 1 on their BS.
Ennemy models killed are taken out, if after this attack the ennemy unit still has more models then the CSM unit, the CSM is destroyed and taken out of play as casualty like usual.
If the CSM unit as more models then the sweeping unit, then the CSM unit isn't destroyed, and they continue figthing in the subsequent Assault phase like normal.
If the CSM completly kills off the ennemy unit using this rule, they can act normaly in their next turn.
Vehicles that gets the Daemonic possession should been able to be possesed by a Gods given Daemon and gain approriate rules given its role.
-Khorne Daemon Possession; Rhino-works as a Dirge Caster and models in 8" of the Rhino gets +1 on their WS and BS Land Raider as Dirge caster, and models disembarking from it can run+assault in the same turn.
Walkers, Gains Rage and Hatred.
Predator, gains Monster Hunter/Tank hunter rules.
Vindicator, units with the MoK/DoK special rules, that assault a unit/terrain containing a unit that has been targeted and fired upon by the vindicator counts has been equipped with grenades.
Heldrake, makes D3 Vector strikes hits Vs ground models and D3+1 Vs Flying models.
And so on with the other Gods.
Detachement for each Legion/Warband, but with an acceptable amount of minimum units, unlike the CotW Daemons formations...
I definatly could go around something like ; 1 Lord, 0+ Chosen, 2+ CSM/Cults Marines units, 1+War Engine( be it a Daemon engine or any of the HS vehicles) and a Spawn or Possesed Tax.
Dantes Baals wrote: Some way to get your HQ a 2+ armor save would be nice, or especially a 3+ ward (other than MoT).
There are fleshmetal and terminator armour, both of which give a 2+ save.
Only warpsmiths get Fleshmetal though, others have to make do with TDA or PA, so you can choose between 3+, or 2+/5++. The downsides are that TDA makes Sgil of Corruption more expensive (you're paying for +1 vs +3 to your Invul), paying for Deep Strike and Relentless which are virtually worthless on an IC or will never be used, as well as limit his transport option to the Land Raider.
My wish in this case is that there becomes an Artificer Armour equivilent and Fleshmetal becomes something different altogether. Call it "Chosen Armour," it gives a 2+ save and roll it out to Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes (Warpsmith comes standard). Fleshmetal then grants a Feel No Pain. Oblits and Mutilators get Terminator Armour (nothing actually changes ruleswise, they are still SNP so can't sweep and are relentless, still same saves, still have Very Bulky).
Dantes Baals wrote: Some way to get your HQ a 2+ armor save would be nice, or especially a 3+ ward (other than MoT).
There are fleshmetal and terminator armour, both of which give a 2+ save.
Only warpsmiths get Fleshmetal though, others have to make do with TDA or PA, so you can choose between 3+, or 2+/5++. The downsides are that TDA makes Sgil of Corruption more expensive (you're paying for +1 vs +3 to your Invul), paying for Deep Strike and Relentless which are virtually worthless on an IC or will never be used, as well as limit his transport option to the Land Raider.
My wish in this case is that there becomes an Artificer Armour equivilent and Fleshmetal becomes something different altogether. Call it "Chosen Armour," it gives a 2+ save and roll it out to Chaos Lords and Daemon Princes (Warpsmith comes standard). Fleshmetal then grants a Feel No Pain. Oblits and Mutilators get Terminator Armour (nothing actually changes ruleswise, they are still SNP so can't sweep and are relentless, still same saves, still have Very Bulky).
This is what I had in mind. Should have specified artificer armor equivalent. Asking for the DP to have access would be a long shot IMO. It would be awesome and very welcomed, but I think its a reach to say that DPs will get "chosen armor" if it comes up in the new dex.
Another possible idea for dealing with the lack of ATSKNF, give CSM something like the following:
Traitorous Brotherhood: Units containing a model with this rule may attempt to regroup immediately at the end of any fallback move.
If a unit with this rule is broken at the end of close combat and caught by a sweeping advance, rather than being destroyed, the unit regroups automatically and remains locked in close combat. However, the unit automatically loses a number of models equal to the difference in scores on the sweeping advance test, with no saves of any kind allowed. The owning player chooses which models from the unit to remove.
Basic idea: almost as good as loyalist marines, but if they're losing a close combat, the traitors lack discipline and will sacrifice their fellow marines to buy themselves breathing room.
Personally, I would love for them to be the equal opposites of loyalists, having very different, but similar units, to make them the less reliable, but with more of an "awesome but impractical" vibe to them like three shot plasma rifles, that get hot on a 5+ or units that become stronger as a combat lasts, but start out weaker.
thepowerfulwill wrote: like three shot plasma rifles, that get hot on a 5+ or units that become stronger as a combat lasts, but start out weaker.
You mean like plasma culverns and ruststalkers?
What are those?
Skitarii stuff.
The Plasma Caliver is an 18" Plasma Gun that is Assault 3 rather than Rapid Fire.
Ruststalkers have a special rule for their weapons called "Transsonic" where the first round of combat the weapons are very "meh", with a pseudo-Rend...but once round 2 rolls around? They're ALWAYS AP2.
thepowerfulwill wrote: like three shot plasma rifles, that get hot on a 5+ or units that become stronger as a combat lasts, but start out weaker.
You mean like plasma culverns and ruststalkers?
What are those?
Skitarii stuff.
The Plasma Caliver is an 18" Plasma Gun that is Assault 3 rather than Rapid Fire.
Ruststalkers have a special rule for their weapons called "Transsonic" where the first round of combat the weapons are very "meh", with a pseudo-Rend...but once round 2 rolls around? They're ALWAYS AP2.
I'm pretty sure at this point that GW is much more likely to give us an all new close combat weapon that hits at Str. user -1/ap-, and on any successful to-hit roll, the weapon snaps in half and inflicts an automatic Str.D hit on the user.
They'll be called 'Hazardous Destroyers', and end up being the single best weapon in the game at "Forging the Narrative!"
I'd be happy if they looked at Forgeworld's Horus Heresy Legion Rules and copied them over with some flavour changes to represent the Chaos influence over the millennia. Would be a nice bit of legacy too, linking the two different era's together.
GoonBandito wrote: I'd be happy if they looked at Forgeworld's Horus Heresy Legion Rules and copied them over with some flavour changes to represent the Chaos influence over the millennia. Would be a nice bit of legacy too, linking the two different era's together.
It would be a really good starting off point to be honest.
That's kinda what I tried when I came up with a chaos decurion, though I would do things quite differently now seeing how far they're willing to go with formation buffs and new rules.
I'm pretty sure at this point that GW is much more likely to give us an all new close combat weapon that hits at Str. user -1/ap-, and on any successful to-hit roll, the weapon snaps in half and inflicts an automatic Str.D hit on the user.
They'll be called 'Hazardous Destroyers', and end up being the single best weapon in the game at "Forging the Narrative!"
I laughed so hard that I'm sore!
I think you're right, but haven't told the full story. In addition to everything you listed, the new CSM book will have several truly awesome characters/unit entries. There will also be two versions of the "Hazardous Destroyer". One version listed in the wargear list as an optional upgrade and one version that the really awesome new entries are REQUIRED to take. The required version will be exactly the same as the optional version but cost twice as much. Thereby making those new cool units overcosted and ineffective. No one in the codex will actually be able to take the less expensive optional version listed in the Chaos Armory.
Cult Troops - make them useful again. Get Salvo off sonic weapons, make Plague Marines FNP(3), give Berzerkers chainaxes by default and let them upgrade to chainglaves, make TSons immune to anything under S5.
Terminators - give them options for marks / sigils that take to them 3+ invulnerable, give them options for more firepower.
Daemon Princes - give them eternal warrior and let them fly and charge.
Heldrake - get rid of the turret rule.
Defilers - decrease the points and let us take them in squads.
Predators - let us take them in squads.
Sorcerors - get rid of the god-specific disciplines so they can get a free power.
I think they (may) have the size for it, but as they stand, they don't have the stats for it, maybe with a strength D weapon, or better armor perhaps, but not as they stand now.
Oh predicting time
CSM will get something like that
- Heldrake Baleflamer nerf to Ap4
- Cultists will be 20 man minimum with WS 2 BS 2 Sv - and still cost 4 ppm - To take any CSM codex units in your army you must take at least one Chaos Lord
- Obliterators will fire each weapon only once per game
- Maulerfiends get +35 pts cost each, Magma cutters will be reduced to meltabombs used instead of powerfists, and Lasher tendrils will give him just Shred (simplification)
- Obliterators and Mutilators will be 3 models per squad, no less no more
- Cult Troops removed from codex
- Spawn will nerfed back to moving 2d6" in random direction each Movement phase
- All Icons replaced with just +1 to combat resolution
- Nurgle mark give FnP instead of Toughness
- Daemonic Weapons will wound, reduce WS to 1 and grant no additional attacks to a model carrying it on 1-2 on Daemonic weapon roll
- Spell Familiars and Dirge casters will be removed from codex
and some decurion:
Chaos Renegade Warband (no Legion rules of course, but perhaps will fit Night Lords theme)
Benefits: re-roll Warlord trait from codex, Fear
Core choice
1 Chaos Lord
3-6 units of CSM 1-4 units of Possessed
0-2 unit of Chaos Terminators and/or Chosen
0-1 unit of Havocs
Restrictions:
if Lord take mark everyone else must take the same too
Special rules:
re-roll Warlord trait from codex, Fear, once per game all units in formation can gain Stubborn and Hatred (Imperials) for a turn
Command
1 Chaos Lord
1 Warpsmith
1 Dark Apostle
1 Sorcerer
Special rules: models must take challenges themselves (not champions from squads)
Enemy units within 6" take Fear at -2 Leadership
Auxilary #1
1 Warpsmith
3 Chaos Predators and/or Vindicators and/or Land Raiders
Restriction: every vehicle model must take destroyer blades
Special rules: Destroyer blade hits are resolved at Ap4 instead of Ap- and gain Soulblaze as long as a Warpsmith is somehow within 6" of the target
Auxilary #2
2-4 units of Raptors and 2-4 of Warp talons
Special rules: when they Deep strike, unit from the formation can sacrifice one model from it to reduce scatter roll by 1"
And all models in formation have Soulblaze on their Hammer of Wrath hits (yes I like Soulblaze)
Auxilary #3
1-3 units of Chaos Bikers, 2-4 units of Maulerfiends, Forgefiends or Defilers
Special rules: entire formation can choose to Outflank, arriving by single Reserve roll
Auxilary #4
1 unit of Spawn, 2 units of Helbrutes
Special rules: as long as they are within 6" of any other units from the formation, they gain Hatred
Auxilary #5
1 unit of Mutilators, 1 unit of Obliterators
Special rules: Mutilators can re-roll charge range against units being hit by Obliterators in the same turn
You forgot to add that it'll be a codex only 1 week release, and anything not currently available as a plastic kit will simply be removed entirely from the webstore.
Thus, our codex will no longer have rules for;
PA Sorcerers
Warpsmith
Dark Apostle
Chosen
Mutilators
Plaguemarines
Noise Marines
Havocs
Oblits
1kSons & 'Zerkers will be 'safe' from the model line purge, as they have/will have plastic kits, but instead of being in the parent CSM codex, they'll instead get moved into their proper Khornekin codex. (and simply forgotten entirely in the same of poor 1kSons, who will thus only become usable if you go 'Unbound'!)
I was in the washroom at the office today, and I overheard someone saying there will be a formation in the new codex that uses 3 x 3 units of Oblitorators, which will grant them Soulblaze and hammer of wrath.
Konrax wrote: I was in the washroom at the office today, and I overheard someone saying there will be a formation in the new codex that uses 3 x 3 units of Oblitorators, which will grant them Soulblaze and hammer of wrath.
Exciting stuff!!
Such overpowered nonsense will never get past quality control!
Konrax wrote: I was in the washroom at the office today, and I overheard someone saying there will be a formation in the new codex that uses 3 x 3 units of Oblitorators, which will grant them Soulblaze and hammer of wrath.
Exciting stuff!!
Such overpowered nonsense will never get past quality control!
I heard it was Rage + HoW, with an added rule that if Oblits start their turn within max charge range of an enemy unit they must attempt to assault that turn, otherwise they must Run in the shooting phase if they're not within maximum charge range.
Lukash_ wrote: Copy the statline and special rules for Wulfen.
Paste it into the statline for Possessed.
Remove their weapon upgrades, the silly Curse of the Wulfen table, and ATSKNF, and make them Beasts.
Edit: Off topic side note: why in the heck do Wulfen get ATSKNF? It makes zero sense from a fluff point of view.
Meh, they're Space Marines still... apparently.
Can't have our Mary Sue overlords missing out anything now, can we?!
I really, really, really would love to see Possessed go back to their 3.5ed incarnation though... ie; basic unit with some meaner stats such as S5/A3 base, and then options for marks, AND a new upgrade chart so you can purchase things like;
- Daemonic Talons: +3pts/model - gives Rending to all attacks
- Warptouch: +3pts/model - give Poisoned 4+ & ap4 to all attacks
- Iridescent Corona: +2 pts/model - gives Soul Blaze to attacks & 12"/S4/ap4/Assault 2/Soul Blaze shooting
- Winged Horrors: +4pts/model - changes unit type to Jetpack Infantry
- Daemonic Resiliance: +4pts/model - gives FnP 4+
- Daemonic Fury: +5pts/model - model makes its full attacks when killed, even if its already attacked this turn. (ala Wulfen ability)
Hell, allow the unit to purchase up to 2 such upgrades, which while extremely expensive, can help make some insanely unique & characterful units!
Lukash_ wrote: Copy the statline and special rules for Wulfen.
Paste it into the statline for Possessed.
Remove their weapon upgrades, the silly Curse of the Wulfen table, and ATSKNF, and make them Beasts.
Edit: Off topic side note: why in the heck do Wulfen get ATSKNF? It makes zero sense from a fluff point of view.
Meh, they're Space Marines still... apparently.
Can't have our Mary Sue overlords missing out anything now, can we?!
I really, really, really would love to see Possessed go back to their 3.5ed incarnation though... ie; basic unit with some meaner stats such as S5/A3 base, and then options for marks, AND a new upgrade chart so you can purchase things like;
- Daemonic Talons: +3pts/model - gives Rending to all attacks
- Warptouch: +3pts/model - give Poisoned 4+ & ap4 to all attacks
- Iridescent Corona: +2 pts/model - gives Soul Blaze to attacks & 12"/S4/ap4/Assault 2/Soul Blaze shooting
- Winged Horrors: +4pts/model - changes unit type to Jetpack Infantry
- Daemonic Resiliance: +4pts/model - gives FnP 4+
- Daemonic Fury: +5pts/model - model makes its full attacks when killed, even if its already attacked this turn. (ala Wulfen ability)
Hell, allow the unit to purchase up to 2 such upgrades, which while extremely expensive, can help make some insanely unique & characterful units!
Yeah, something like that would go a long way into making the unit better. The d3 just isn't cutting it.
Lukash_ wrote: Copy the statline and special rules for Wulfen.
Paste it into the statline for Possessed.
Remove their weapon upgrades, the silly Curse of the Wulfen table, and ATSKNF, and make them Beasts.
Edit: Off topic side note: why in the heck do Wulfen get ATSKNF? It makes zero sense from a fluff point of view.
Can we also make the models a little less silly looking while we are it? Possessed just kinda look like demons in bad space marine cosplay... And I actually do like the look of the chaos marines, and the demons, just not the possesed.
Korinov wrote: Current plastic possessed suck. The 3rd edition metals were quite acceptable.
Eh. I don't really mind the current plastics... sure they could be better, but then, we're also talking about a kit that's almost 10 years old now!
While a few of the bitz are goofy, overall they still hold up when you give them a suitably dark paint scheme. Anything bright just shows up the cartoonyness of those old sculpts.
Still, it would be nice to get a re-do on them, especially after seeing what GW can do nowadays. But then, that's a problem for 95% of our entire freaking model line!
Edit: when it comes down to it though, Possessed are about the last kit in our range that needs re-doing... Basic Chaos Marines, Terminators, *ALL* the Cult units, Havocs, Chosen , Bikers & Cultists need major overhauls and/or actual kits to begin with, long before the Possessed get anything new.
Korinov wrote: Current plastic possessed suck. The 3rd edition metals were quite acceptable.
Except that there was no posseseds kit metal or other in 3rd, the first metal possesed models where from end of 4th, then when 5th Ed codex came out, the current plastic ones came out.
And the metal ones where those guys...
i'll have the plastic ones everyday of the week over those horseshits.
Weird, as far as I remembered, the plastic kit was released during 4th edition, and those metal ones were from 3rd.
Anyway, the metal ones are not great models, they have not aged too well and the one on the right looks terrible with that blue skin paintjob... but I'd still have them over the current plastic kit. The current kit is simply terrible, for my taste at least, among the worst plastic models GW has ever released.
Korinov wrote: Weird, as far as I remembered, the plastic kit was released during 4th edition, and those metal ones were from 3rd.
Anyway, the metal ones are not great models, they have not aged too well and the one on the right looks terrible with that blue skin paintjob... but I'd still have them over the current plastic kit. The current kit is simply terrible, for my taste at least, among the worst plastic models GW has ever released.
In 3rd there was no official posseseds kit, there was a Mutations sprue with CSM boxes, and at the time you still had some hobby section in codexes to show how to convert stuffs.
My Possesed from the time was a mix of CSM kits from 2nd Ed and Old plastic Genestealers with some orks bits, because i started before they re-did the CSM box and added the mutations sprue.
The Metal possesed came at the same time that you had the Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder( the Daemon weapon that gave you 2D6 A) and the metal Khorne Zerkers champs, those where released with the 4th Ed codex from Gav Thorpe and Allesio, where there was no real Daemons, only generic ones.
Korinov wrote: Weird, as far as I remembered, the plastic kit was released during 4th edition, and those metal ones were from 3rd.
Anyway, the metal ones are not great models, they have not aged too well and the one on the right looks terrible with that blue skin paintjob... but I'd still have them over the current plastic kit. The current kit is simply terrible, for my taste at least, among the worst plastic models GW has ever released.
In 3rd there was no official posseseds kit, there was a Mutations sprue with CSM boxes, and at the time you still had some hobby section in codexes to show how to convert stuffs.
My Possesed from the time was a mix of CSM kits from 2nd Ed and Old plastic Genestealers with some orks bits, because i started before they re-did the CSM box and added the mutations sprue.
The Metal possesed came at the same time that you had the Khorne Lord with Bloodfeeder( the Daemon weapon that gave you 2D6 A) and the metal Khorne Zerkers champs, those where released with the 4th Ed codex from Gav Thorpe and Allesio, where there was no real Daemons, only generic ones.
Actually, the metal Possessed iirc, came out as part of the Eye of Terror campaign.
The Gav/Allesio travesty of a codex that came out in Oct. 2007 came with the following "new" kits;
- Re-cut basic CSM kit. (going from 8 models to a full 10, plus some new components & a re-worked 'command frame')
- Plastic Terminator Lord/Sorcerer kit
- Plastic Terminator kit
- Plastic Possessed kit
- "new" Vindicator kit (ie: loyalist kit with 2 'Chaos' sprues thrown in)
plus re-boxing with updated box art for the likes of the Chaos Rhino, Predator & Land Raider, and a re-done Battleforce.
I recall this release clearly, since I was working at the local GW at the time, and basically every staff member was a Chaos player! We ended up buying out almost half our new release stock the night before the actual release, sold almost all the rest over the weekend, and then everyone a week later realised just how god-awful the rules turned out!
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: The awful metal possessed came out with the Medusa V (or VI or maybe XVIII, I can't remember) campaign along with the Nurgle Daemon Prince model.
Cheers for that! I'd honestly forgotten entirely about that campaign, since iirc, didn't GW end up writing it that "everyone wins!" in the end, so as to avoid the massive fanboy whining that ruined EoT?!
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: The awful metal possessed came out with the Medusa V (or VI or maybe XVIII, I can't remember) campaign along with the Nurgle Daemon Prince model.
Cheers for that! I'd honestly forgotten entirely about that campaign, since iirc, didn't GW end up writing it that "everyone wins!" in the end, so as to avoid the massive fanboy whining that ruined EoT?!
I think everyone won except CSM who lost to SM. IIRC everyone had their own objective but the SM and CSM objectives were mutually opposed. So autolose for CSM.
Korinov wrote: Current plastic possessed suck. The 3rd edition metals were quite acceptable.
Eh. I don't really mind the current plastics... sure they could be better, but then, we're also talking about a kit that's almost 10 years old now!
While a few of the bitz are goofy, overall they still hold up when you give them a suitably dark paint scheme. Anything bright just shows up the cartoonyness of those old sculpts.
Still, it would be nice to get a re-do on them, especially after seeing what GW can do nowadays. But then, that's a problem for 95% of our entire freaking model line!
Edit: when it comes down to it though, Possessed are about the last kit in our range that needs re-doing... Basic Chaos Marines, Terminators, *ALL* the Cult units, Havocs, Chosen , Bikers & Cultists need major overhauls and/or actual kits to begin with, long before the Possessed get anything new.
Slayer le boucher wrote:
Korinov wrote: Current plastic possessed suck. The 3rd edition metals were quite acceptable.
Except that there was no posseseds kit metal or other in 3rd, the first metal possesed models where from end of 4th, then when 5th Ed codex came out, the current plastic ones came out.
And the metal ones where those guys...
i'll have the plastic ones everyday of the week over those horseshits.
Korinov wrote:Weird, as far as I remembered, the plastic kit was released during 4th edition, and those metal ones were from 3rd.
Anyway, the metal ones are not great models, they have not aged too well and the one on the right looks terrible with that blue skin paintjob... but I'd still have them over the current plastic kit. The current kit is simply terrible, for my taste at least, among the worst plastic models GW has ever released.
BoomWolf wrote:Funny, I actually quite like the plastic possessed. If only the rules were less gak.
Well, I like most current chaos models.
I always thought the idea of possessed was that the gamer went crazy with conversions and created a unique looking unit. A possessed /kit goes against the entire idea of warped and chaotic looking models!
I also quite like having units in the codex that don't have models available, as it means that there are always going to be interesting models around when people pick that unit.
aren't these guys Fearless!?! Literally, they're the only 'Daemon' unit in the entire game that poops their armour and runs away at the slightest little mishap! 
