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Anything Khorne-related that they fix in this hypothetical new CSM dex better carry over into Khorne Daemonkin, either through FAQ's or campaign supplements.

As far as generic HQ's go. I'd like a return to how 3.5 had it with just two basic choices. A chaos lord and a lieutenant which then could be upgraded in the manner one saw fit whether it be a warsmith, a sorceror and so on and so forth. So while the number of HQ choices would decrease, there would still be all the variety one could hope for more or less.

No, a single big book is NOT cutting it.

Because half the problem in CSM, is that its not actually CSM.
You got human worshippers, a LOT of darkmech, multiple daemon hybrids, few true daemons, cults and then just a bit of actual marines.

That's no CSM codex, that's an entire alliance. and then you got a codex for actual daemons.
Now, chaos is not like imperial, so the same splitting won't work, but you NEED splitting in order for it to function.
And just like how DA and BA and all other marines have similar lines but different specialities, so should chaos.

5 factions.
Khorne daemonkin (needs some upgrades, and a few extras)
Tzeentch forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Nurgle forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Slannesh forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Tratior armies (nothing more god specific than marks, having the biggest "generic" armory around, with "black legion and friends" being the "default" much like ultramarines are the codex marines "default", and other legions/factions getting their own spinoffs later)

THATS how to fix chaos. well, that's step one, naturally each codex will need its own flavor and specialties, and the faction as a whole needs to bring many of its units up to par (especially those origination from CSM)


As for the units you listed.
Warpsmith-no. he's a "reverse techmarine" on purpose. its a big theme of chaos marines of doing the same things the other way around. he might need to be brought a bit up, but so does all chaos marines.

Apostle-very much not. he just needs to get a more unique role. leading the human masses is where he belongs. he just needs to be more relevant at that role (bigger bubble, dishing out an ability that marines don't care for, but the humans do)

Mutilators-actually, no. I disagree there. CSM has so many assault units, that having just another cheap bunch to throw forward will add nothing to the codex. if anything, rather than removing their weaknesses, give them unique strength-being absurdly hard to kill, and do terrifying damage. that way, you got yourself a new unit niche-zone control. its easy to avoid them, but emperor protects if you willingly get anywhere near them.

Warp talons-no. charge when dive can be a formation power, but not built in. having a bigger "flash" radius, maybe do a bit of damage attached, or a more accurate drop can be good, as it makes the DS a tactical choice to help your OTHER assault units. just charging from DS gives little place for meaningful choices, for both sides. but having the flash itself be meaningful, is a whole other story.

Defiler-the derpy schizophrenic madness is part of the appeal. he just need to be brought up to match the defensive profile of either his daemon counterpart grinder, or the imperial counterpart dune crawler. and cost less, he costs WAY too much, as he pays full price for each skill he ahs, not counting the fact he can't use them all at once. (common problem with chaos actually)

Vehicles-Dreadclaws seem out of place for chaos for some reason. not wrong theme, but wrong tactics. they don't do the whole "get in, do mission, get out" thing marines are supposed to, they go to war. land raiders could use a touch up though. maybe some razorback variant too.
But for heavens sake, not reliable deep strike on demand. the marine pods are infuriating enough on how much they throw positioning concerns off the window. we need less of these mechanics, not more.

No, a single big book is NOT cutting it.

Because half the problem in CSM, is that its not actually CSM.
You got human worshippers, a LOT of darkmech, multiple daemon hybrids, few true daemons, cults and then just a bit of actual marines.

That's no CSM codex, that's an entire alliance. and then you got a codex for actual daemons.
Now, chaos is not like imperial, so the same splitting won't work, but you NEED splitting in order for it to function.
And just like how DA and BA and all other marines have similar lines but different specialities, so should chaos.

5 factions.
Khorne daemonkin (needs some upgrades, and a few extras)
Tzeentch forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Nurgle forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Slannesh forces (marines, daemons, hybrids, humans and darkmech)
Tratior armies (nothing more god specific than marks, having the biggest "generic" armory around, with "black legion and friends" being the "default" much like ultramarines are the codex marines "default", and other legions/factions getting their own spinoffs later)

THATS how to fix chaos. well, that's step one, naturally each codex will need its own flavor and specialties, and the faction as a whole needs to bring many of its units up to par (especially those origination from CSM)

That's not how you fix Chaos IMO. That's how you make it so that I have to spend minimum $300 and carry around ten pounds of books or an expensive tablet just to play one army. My approach isn't saying "One book and NO supplements". It's saying one book that allows you to field almost anything you want. It's just that some of it would be more basic. You could still have supplements for more in depth and focused lists. You just wouldn't HAVE to have those to play an army.

As for Demons - Yes, there is a Demon book. That's why I didn't mention having a Demon section. The problem is that there's ZERO synergy between the two books. Adding things like the rule I mentioned for the Dark Apostle would just help connect them a little better.

Warpsmith-no. he's a "reverse techmarine" on purpose. its a big theme of chaos marines of doing the same things the other way around. he might need to be brought a bit up, but so does all chaos marines.

He's a "reverse tech marine" in that Techmarines are generally decent at what they do. He sucks. My point wasn't to necessarily duplicate a Techmarine skill for skill. It was more that right now he has a lot of abilities that are diametrically opposed to one another and he's significantly over-costed.

Apostle-very much not. he just needs to get a more unique role. leading the human masses is where he belongs. he just needs to be more relevant at that role (bigger bubble, dishing out an ability that marines don't care for, but the humans do)

To each his own here. I think that's a very boring role better performed by a traitor Commissar or some such and not by a MEQ unit that is (like so many things in this book) over-costed. This one's more a matter of personal preference though. I just really like the Dark Apostles from the fluff and I tend to like things turned up to 11. So for me, personally, the Apostle entry is currently yawn inducing. The more I think about it, the weirder it gets too. It's a really good example of how disconnected everything at GW is. You have the Word Bearers trilogy (which is one of the first places we really see Dark Apostles fluff-wise, and certainly one of the most in-depth) where DA's lead entire Word Bearer armies, have floating demonic escorts, cast Psychic powers and are generally towering pillars of chaotic bad ass, and then you have the codex Dark Apostles. Who up your leadership and improve your moral. Slightly. They, coincidentally help with the same stat that got lowered from the last edition. If the two ever met IRL it would be hilarious.

Trilogy DA:
"I'm a towering inferno of power and awe. I'm a direct portal through which the hands of the gods themselves function!"

Codex DA:
"That's cool. I um ... I uh ... do this thing ... where the people around me use my LD score ... It's great. Until someone hits me with that power that drops my LD score....huh? no. Why? What's a Demon?"

Mutilators-actually, no. I disagree there. CSM has so many assault units, that having just another cheap bunch to throw forward will add nothing to the codex. if anything, rather than removing their weaknesses, give them unique strength-being absurdly hard to kill, and do terrifying damage. that way, you got yourself a new unit niche-zone control. its easy to avoid them, but emperor protects if you willingly get anywhere near them.

That would work well IMO. I just want them to not be ... what they currently are. lol The only issue is that, in this case, all of those great upgrades you mention are totally wasted unless you dump S&P or give us better deep-striking. You don't appear to like either of those options so we'd be left with a easily ignored unit that has no reliable delivery method.

I feel like a lot of your changes aren't really changing anything. You end up making things slightly less terrible, or the same but different. CSM really need a bigger overhaul than that.

Warp talons-no. charge when dive can be a formation power, but not built in. having a bigger "flash" radius, maybe do a bit of damage attached, or a more accurate drop can be good, as it makes the DS a tactical choice to help your OTHER assault units. just charging from DS gives little place for meaningful choices, for both sides. but having the flash itself be meaningful, is a whole other story.

So they land, the flash goes off, is more "meaningful", then the very expensive unit gets shot off the board. Meh. I don't think that change helps them at all. As far as the blast goes, nothing short of making it a "D" blast is really going to help them and I'm certainly not advocating for more D weapons. lol You could argue that I'm wrong in saying the points could stay the same, but really, the only way to really make these guys truly useful is to allow for that charge on deep strike. That's the only other thing that makes the blind flash useful. It would be great to drop them on Interceptor units that get higher BS, etc.

Defiler-the derpy schizophrenic madness is part of the appeal. he just need to be brought up to match the defensive profile of either his daemon counterpart grinder, or the imperial counterpart dune crawler. and cost less, he costs WAY too much, as he pays full price for each skill he ahs, not counting the fact he can't use them all at once. (common problem with chaos actually)

IMO lowering the price but not really changing anything other than the defensive profile won't fix him. It will just make him suck slightly less.

But for heavens sake, not reliable deep strike on demand. the marine pods are infuriating enough on how much they throw positioning concerns off the window. we need less of these mechanics, not more.

I'm not saying "automatic on demand". I'm just saying something more than "If you take this relic, get into CC AND kill something by the time your stuff comes in, it might not scatter". It's ridiculous that an army which has been in the warp for all these years doesn't have one or two other ways to improve the deep strike accuracy. Plus, you can say we need less of this, but the game is trending towards everyone having MORE. So us not getting it would just be ... well more of the same really. lol

So, an idea I just had for handling Land Raiders. First, Land Raiders are priced horribly across all codexes, paying a premium for being heavily armored assault transports saddled with a schizophrenic mix of long and short range weapons (in most cases). But they're awful in the CSM codex: just look at the variety of Land Raiders that existed in 30k, look at how little the Dark Mechanicus care about violating STCs, and then look at the single crappy Land Raider variant CSMs get, and with a broken machine spirit to boot.

Instead I'd love to see the formal Land Raider variants get thrown out the window for CSM. Make them totally customizable instead. Millennia of service to the Dark Gods have given plenty of time for tinkering and mutating. There should be three "base" variants:

Land Raider "Infernus"
- options are geared toward assault, increased transport capacity, and short range shooting. A few long range options come cheap.

Land Raider "Diabolus"
- options are geared toward long range shooting and reduced transport capacity. A few short range options come cheap.

Land Raider "Damnatus"
- a mix of long and short range options that will always result in a compromised design, but at a cheaper price in the end (looking at you, Land Raider Phobos)

You could set this up such that picking the right options ends up building existing variants for a more reasonable price, with the ability to build a custom variant with greater synergy for a higher price. This would also motivate a new CSM Land Raider box with a wider variety of options, including weapon options loyalists don't get, and interesting mutations and god-specific upgrades.

@CalgarsPimpHand:

I really like that approach. It would allow for the "randomness" Chaos is suppose to have in that each player is going to bring something different, but it does so without a stupid random chart. It also addresses a lot of the issues Land Raiders currently have AND would be very fluffy IMO.

Regarding some of the hugely obvious "turdtastic" units we're currently saddled with;
1. Dark Apostle.
- Allow them to access the likes of Termie armour/Bike/Jump pack for feth's sake, so that they can actually give their Zealot ability to various types of units.
- Allow the option to upgrade to a Mastery Lv1 Psyker. (no Force weapon though)
- Return the Demagogue skill & give a Ld-boosting bubble to units around them, while inflicting a minor Ld penalty to enemy units they're in contact with. (which would also make them synergise better with 'Fear' causing units!)

2. Warpsmith.
- Lower his pts cost.
- Allow the option to upgrade to a Mastery Lv1 Psyker, but limit him to only Telekenesis or the relevant God lore if marked.

3. Mutilators.
- Either remove SaP from them, or else boost their stats so that they're more akin to Assault Cents +1, especially when marked! They lose out on the fire support that Assault Cents get, hence they should be better at well, mutilating things when they do catch someone!

4. Warptalons.
- For gak's sake, why the flying aren't these guys Fearless!?! Literally, they're the only 'Daemon' unit in the entire game that poops their armour and runs away at the slightest little mishap!
- Warpflame Strike needs to actually do something... 'useful'.
- Change up their stats (alongside Possessed) and make them more akin to the new Wulfen. These guys are psychopathic Space Marines with the added power of a raging warp entity bound within their flesh. They should be among the stronger assault specialists in the game, with the drawback that you can't attack IC's to them due to their daemonic nature.

Bring the same changes over the Possessed as well... No IC support, but absolutely brutal in assaults if/when they get there.

5. Deflier.
- Screw all those 'Imperial weapons with spikes!' BS. Give them proper 'daemonic' weapon akin to what the Fiends, Drakes, Khannons & 'Grinders get... Make the Battle Cannon something like a 'Balecannon' that's high strength, ap4/5, Ignores Cover and reduces Ld to units that suffer casualties.
In place of a Heavy flamer, make it a daemonic flame cannon that has 'Torrent' and 'Soul Blaze' in return for say S6/ap5.
Etc, etc... Basically, make it truly a uniquely Chaos vehicle with various options players can customise to taste.
- Cut it's pts cost obviously. Its current 200pts price tag is a complete joke.

I think we're failing to address the main problem facing CSM.  The problem is thus: they are the archnemesis of the game's golden boys, the Space Marines.  GW will never again allow CSM to threaten the game's primary faction. This happened once before with the CSM 3.5 dex and ever since GW have been scared to death of giving CSM anything that even faintly smells halfway powerful lest it happen again.

Luckily for GW (and unluckily for CSM players) SM and CSM share a statline and many similarities in unit composition and equipment.  This makes it very easy to ensure CSM are always weaker - just take a comparable SM unit or option, subtract bonuses/special rules and add points.

Because of this CSM are doomed to forever be the victims of overly timid design.  The units and options SM get put a hard upper limit on what CSM can get since each CSM unit/option must be strictly worse than its SM equivalent.  For those options where no direct equivalent exists, GW will tend to overcompensate with the underpowering, building in a hefty margin of error just to make sure they don't give CSM something too strong by mistake (a pretty significant risk given the quality/quantity of their "playtesting").

To rectify this CSM need the following special rule:

The Archenemy: If your army contains any models with the Chaos Space Marines faction then all enemy Space Marine models gain the Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) and Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines) special rules.  Chaos Space Marines may never control or contest objectives within 3" of a Space Marine model.

So the idea is if CSM always need to be at a disadvantage vs SM then give them a disadvantage vs SM but only vs SM. Then at least they can be strong against everyone else.

Now with that out of the way we can talk about finally giving CSM some good stuff.

You'd think that those Imperial whelps would've gotten over their butthurt after 13 or so years...

 Azreal13 wrote:

Kar Athri wrote:


More reliability from things like the chaos boon table or possessed, dont get punished for having a chance to get a basic daemon prince that lost the 100 pts of upgrade you gave your lord, or worse yet a spawn.

The fact these things exist at all is an issue in my book. I'm a great advocate for player agency over random tables (as I'm sure most are) and contrary to what GW tries to force feed us, random tables do not encourage forging the narrative.

Spoiler:

If I wanted to forge a narrative, I'd give my Lord a tentacle for an arm (for instance.) I'd model that on the miniature, and I'd select it at as an option whenever I fielded the model, it could give him +1A, act as a 2nd melee weapon, impose -1A in a challenge, there'd be all sorts of ways to implement it that made it useful without breaking the game or requiring too high a points cost. My narrative would be that he lost his original arm in a duel with a loyalist but ultimately emerged victorious and so was rewarded with a replacement by his patron God.

As it stands, I can model it, I can have a reason for it, but every game he can swing wildly in what that very same boon does functionally on the table, many of which would have little bearing on the detail and effort I'd put into the model and the backstory. This isn't forging the narrative, this is breaking immersion. Why, given the obvious presence of a tentacle for an arm, is my Lord Stubborn?

Same goes for the Possessed. The best reference we have for what it's like for a Possessed day to day are the HH series. Now, in that context an individual Marine is inhabited by an individual entity with, while far ranging and personal, a fixed set of attributes. While they can appear somewhere between quite normal and full Daemon depending on circumstance, they either have wings, or don't etc etc.

Much better to have a range of upgrades where you can make an informed tactical choice about the unit's role, pay the points, model the minis and get on with it than have them roll exactly the right result for the situation, be in the middle of kicking arse, then all of a sudden change their mind and do something completely different and totally inappropriate 'cause Chaos!

If I ever meet Jervis, I'll be tempted to stuff a collection of random tables into one of his orifices, but I'll be sure to roll a D6 to determine which one...

You've hit the nail on the head with those points. In the black codex (2002 - 3rd edition?), the possessed had the option to choose an ability such as flight or mutation for a certain points cost. This allowed one to do exactly as you described - pick a style, model it, and plan a strategy.
I think that was my favourite codex, mainly because it was so easy to read. Instead of having a description of every unit, then the rules for every unit, and wargear scattered across three different sections (seriously, why?), as they are currently, everything about a unit was in one place, and there were those lovely sections for the main legions, plus the various 'books' of the gods.
The chosen were great, because of the flexibility of the option. It was slightly complex, but I liked the idea of having some terminators, some champions, and so on, in one unit. Very chaotic.
My favourite thing about it, however, and the thing I'd most want back is the 'there can be only one' element of the chaos lord, where you buy a lord, and then, if you want a prince, you upgrade him with 50pts of daemonic gifts. I think this better reflected the gradual mutation process and was totally unique. It gave me some fantastic modelling ideas in terms of trying to represent lords in various stages of daemonhood, and made for a very flexible unit.

By the way, what the hell is a decurion? I keep reading this word and have no idea what it means, except as a Roman cavalry officer!

personaly i don't mind the Boon table, the problem is that its bloated with useless stuff.

Replace it with the Path to Glory Boon chart, this one is short, better and have Gods specific boons.

Also give something to characters in Challenge, its their thing, they should be better then a randiom smuck at it.

Like prefered ennemy and "Parry"; for each succesfull hit the Champion makes, he can reroll 1 save dice, if he does, that attack is lost" or something like that.

Giving your lord bonuses for every challenge it wins is a good idea at its core. Making it apply to too many characters might get messy to keep track of and making it compulsory would be too much of a drawback for lords not kitted totally for close combat. So the ideal would be some kind of bonus system you actively want to risk your lord for, if you're geared for fighting in hand-to-hand.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
The units and options SM get put a hard upper limit on what CSM can get since each CSM unit/option must be strictly worse than its SM equivalent.

I think people are are kind of working under the assumption that GW would, instead, do a good thing. The best thing to do under your assumption would be to simply stop playing the game, wait for GW to finally and justly go under and then snap up whatever models you wanted during the clearance so you've got plenty to mess around with for older or custom editions of 40K.

I see a lot of people want Dark Mechanicum...

Oh hell yeah!

But tbh I kinda wish FW just makes their book instead of GW. I want this because after seeing the love they put into IA: 13 and the detail of attention to them, I think the DM would still hold the manufacturing of HH units due to being free of the constraints of the Mechanicus and the Omnisiah I can see these and more corrupted variants that I think FW could defiantly pull off a lot more than the GW design Studio imo.

Thalax along with my 40k NL? Oh yes please..

As for the boon chart I agree a simplification would be nicer with just benefits, because whilst Chaos are fickle we are entering a new direction that has been developing over time where we are seeing more books and updates with lots of befits but no downsides (e.g Wulfen get to assault on your turn and so on.) simply adding downsides on the stigma of "the ch0z are fiklz" would be insulting imo, when other factions have risky stuff in fluff but we never see the "risk" part and just the benefits.

 corpuschain wrote:

By the way, what the hell is a decurion? I keep reading this word and have no idea what it means, except as a Roman cavalry officer!

A formation for Necrons that makes them harder to kill, generally seen as the start of the current wave of power creep.

 corpuschain wrote:

By the way, what the hell is a decurion? I keep reading this word and have no idea what it means, except as a Roman cavalry officer!

Its the first of these formation based FOC that use formations instead of unit entries, other example being the Gladius Strike Force. The only one actually called Decurion is the Necron one, but the name stuck somehow and now we have terrible names like "Orkcurion" and Decurion becoming a generic term for the style of the FOC.

I wanna see a Juggernaught unit, Similar to SW Thunderwolf Cavalry

Some Better Relics

A 'Daemon Shield' which is basically a Storm Shield

Warp Talons get Daemon, and are AP2

Chaos Lord/Sorceror with Jump Pack unlocks raptors for troops

Something similar to ATSKNF, Like they Auto Rally, but are NOT immune to fear

Ahriman Points Decrease

Librarius Conclave Equilivent that can take Ahriman

Formation consisting of Warp Talons and Raptors

Formation Consisting of 'God Squads' (Noise Marines,Thousand sons ect)

Formation that draws the best from each god (Kharn and Beserkers, Lucius and Noise Marines ect)

Detachment with 6 different buffs, depending on which God all units have (Or mix-n-Match and Unaligned, hence the '6' different buffs) however all units must have the same mark if a god is chosen, no marks if no god is chosen, or all units must take a mark, but the detachment must include all 4 marks

DOOMRIDER to return (and buffed)

Just a few things which would make CSM great again!

I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.

I think that's because more and more people are catching onto GW rules-BS.

Hopefully a dying trend

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.

The codex is fine, you just need to tweak your tactics...

Nah just kidding. In all seriousness though, It's easy to see that chaos need an overhaul, I'm sure they will get to it eventually, but it is frustrating to see the usual suspects getting new codices or campaign books while the likes of chaos languish with out of date books. I'm not a chaos player, but I'd love to see a strong chaos faction. They are supposed to be the big bad, along with the orks and the tyranids, they are the ones who are supposed to be the biggest threats to the Galaxy, yet the three of them have the weakest books.

For what it's worth here are a couple of things I think they should do.

Veterans of the long war should become a unit, not just a rule. Millennia old legionnaires that have spent so long in the warp that there's barely anything of their humanity left. Marines using ancient armour, and ancient weapons. Ghosts of a bygone age reeking havoc on the battle field.

Then have a seperate unit for the likes of Hurons renegades etc.

Have cultists for each God, with interesting and fun special abilities and stat lines. Not just a basic cultist unit. Imagine a horde of zombie cultists akin to the ones faced by the Luna wolves on that moon in the second or third heresy book. Or blood crazy Khorne cultists armed with chain axes and eviscerators.

Chaos has so much potential to be awesome.

General Kroll wrote:
Have cultists for each God, with interesting and fun special abilities and stat lines. Not just a basic cultist unit. Imagine a horde of zombie cultists akin to the ones faced by the Luna wolves on that moon in the second or third heresy book. Or blood crazy Khorne cultists armed with chain axes and eviscerators.

Chaos has so much potential to be awesome.

Nice idea! That would be a lot of fun! The Grey Knights Omnibus contained an army of khorne cultists and an army of dark mechanicus cultists, so I imagine something like that.

 happygolucky wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.

I think that's because more and more people are catching onto GW rules-BS.

Hopefully a dying trend

Don't you know slaanesh already provides us with perfect tactics?
But on a serious note, what would be fun is if we got some upgrade for the human cultists, had an option for more advanced human warriors with flak armor.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.

I think that's because more and more people are catching onto GW rules-BS.

Hopefully a dying trend

Don't you know slaanesh already provides us with perfect tactics?
But on a serious note, what would be fun is if we got some upgrade for the human cultists, had an option for more advanced human warriors with flak armor.

We kinda do..

In IA: 13 and SoV

 happygolucky wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has made an appearance just to say that the codex is perfectly fine and we just need to refine our tactics.

I think that's because more and more people are catching onto GW rules-BS.

Hopefully a dying trend

Don't you know slaanesh already provides us with perfect tactics?
But on a serious note, what would be fun is if we got some upgrade for the human cultists, had an option for more advanced human warriors with flak armor.

We kinda do..

In IA: 13 and SoV

I'll have to check that out then, thanks!

commander dante wrote:
A 'Daemon Shield' which is basically a Storm Shield

Storm Shields as they are now make me angry. Nothing in this game should be allowed to provide a 3++ save on its own. I wouldn't mind if Storm Shields actually gave +2 to Invul Saves, that way a Terminator with a Storm Shield would get the 3++, but people on a 'mere' power armor like Stupidname Furry Cavalry would be reduced to 5++.

If that were the case, I would be positive towards a Daemon Shield which granted +1 to Invul saves and counted as an additional CCW for assault purposes. Some slightly more powerful (and expensive) versions could exist for each one of the Gods, only available to marked CSM.

Warp Talons get Daemon, and are AP2

I'd swear they are Daemons already. AP2 would be too much however. Warp Talons already fulfill the "marine meat grinder" role, the issue is they are brutally overpriced for what they can actually do in the game. And their special snowflake rule (Blind) is an unfunny joke.

Chaos Lord/Sorceror with Jump Pack unlocks raptors for troops

Legion Rules instead for Night Lords, with four FA slots but a single HS one. As in 3.5.

Something similar to ATSKNF, Like they Auto Rally, but are NOT immune to fear

I hate ATSKNF and similar unneeded snowflake rules. Actually the Veterans of the Long War option already fulfills that issue in my eyes.

DOOMRIDER to return (and buffed)

Yes please.

Rosebuddy wrote:
The best thing to do under your assumption would be to simply stop playing the game, wait for GW to finally and justly go under and then snap up whatever models you wanted during the clearance so you've got plenty to mess around with for older or custom editions of 40K.

Exactly...

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:
The best thing to do under your assumption would be to simply stop playing the game, wait for GW to finally and justly go under and then snap up whatever models you wanted during the clearance so you've got plenty to mess around with for older or custom editions of 40K.

Exactly...

That seems... A little extreme... Personally I haven't found it hard to find people who will play older editions, provided they have the older books.

There's several of us locally who aren't playing right now because of the mess the game is in (from our perspective) and older editions are being mooted.

Personally, I think 5th with current codexes, HP, no formations and a mod to D weapons is workable, but only because we can trust the Eldar player not to be a douche.

Although he has just bought a LOT of Warp Spiders...

There's not too much an issue with formations so I'd say keep those.

Gladius? Decurion?

They're free bonuses for no cost, they won't be compatible with a trad 5th CAD only list building structure and they're just an unneeded complication. Not to mention at time of writing access isn't a level playing field.

If someone wants to run something fluffy for reasons other than screwing the other player over with a legion of free stuff, we'll be fine with it.

And this thread has been de-railed... Someone call the thread repair crew...