Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Compulsory challenges are quite bad. Because not all of the Chaos champions got into their positions of power by being brave......


Basically, I don't think you can make a single codex which covers all of the bases. We'd need one for traitor legions, who don't deserve new and shiny toys but deserve ancient technology that makes loyalist marines poop their power armour. And renegade marines who don't deserve ancient astartes poop making technology. But do deserve more modern technology.

How about instead of having to challenge, and being forced to roll on the boon table, you instead only get to roll on the boon table if you win a challenge?

Make it a single D6 table where on each roll there is 3 boons to choose from. Turning into a spawn or prince should only happen in a different circumstance, perhaps something along the lines of your warlord slays the enemy warlord in a challenge.

Lastly a buff to Chaos champions is needed, Eldar for some reason have 2 wound exarchs with an invuln save and Chaos champions are actually not economically worth their points...

Rubric marines should lose inferno bolts and get a big pts drop. The sorcerer should be at least ML2, and have ridiculous awesome psychic powers. The rubrics should be purely ablative wounds for the sorcerer. Maybe even give them 2 wounds. Then they'd have a lot more going for them.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Rubric marines should lose inferno bolts and get a big pts drop. The sorcerer should be at least ML2, and have ridiculous awesome psychic powers. The rubrics should be purely ablative wounds for the sorcerer. Maybe even give them 2 wounds. Then they'd have a lot more going for them.

Or we change the MoT, get rid of SaP, give them Relentless and make them a non-force org unit (like 6E Honour Guard) and make them available as a "body guard" unit for MoT Sorcerers. Maybe make them assaulty... give them a Pseudo-Brotherhood of Psykers and give them all force weapons.

 Konrax wrote:
I think it's ridiculous that CSM will take 1+ year to get an update.

I'm probably going to start Bolt Action while my 10k in csm collect dust.

Considering that the old codex schedule could have 5 to 9 years between books this isn't that bad. it's the power creep that's the real issue.

CCCOOOOOOCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
I think it's ridiculous that CSM will take 1+ year to get an update.

I'm probably going to start Bolt Action while my 10k in csm collect dust.

Considering that the old codex schedule could have 5 to 9 years between books this isn't that bad. it's the power creep that's the real issue.

Well it just upsets me that games workshops previous CEO had CSM down for another codex only update instead of overhauling the faction. It's clearly a choice made by the new CEO and that they once again had failed to recognize that there is a very large portion of players who play csm.

For a faction that is nearly as popular as marines yet gets 1/10th the attention that marines do, I would say they are failing to see the golden egg for what it is.

 Konrax wrote:
Lastly a buff to Chaos champions is needed, Eldar for some reason have 2 wound exarchs with an invuln save and Chaos champions are actually not economically worth their points...

I would remove the Aspiring Champions as a whole. Instead I'd bring back Lieutenants as a cheap, non force org HQ option, BS5 2 wounds and 3 attacks, base Ld9. That way if you expect a certain unit to get into close combat, you pay the points for an affordable close combat specialist who will give a significant edge to your unit. On the other hand, you don't have to pay extra points to give your Havocs an additional melee attack, same for suicidal terminator/raptor squads. I can understand all Loyalist units having sergeants due to command structures and all that, but it doesn't make much sense to keep such a rigid pattern for crazy spiky rogue marines.

I'd keep Champions of Chaos, just with non-mandatory challenges (unless perhaps MoK forcing you to accept enemy challenges, just that) and heavily simplify the Boon table to perhaps a 2D6 roll with minor boons (if double 1 nothing happens, if double 6 you roll again twice). Even better, remove the damn table entirely, revamp the boons and offer them as daemonic rewards for a points cost.

Thousand Sons need a complete overhaul. The Sorceror needs to cost no more than 30 points individually; the old excuse "He has a Force Weapon!" isn't valid anymore since GKs get them by the boatload, and they cost 20 points! imo he should only cost 25 points. Individual Rubrics should be 20 points a pop, have Ignore Cover, and their save should be invulnerable (Basically, cheaper, non-assaulty versions of Legion of the Damned). Also the Sorceror shouldn't be manditory, but having one in the squad removes Slow and Purposeful and replaces it with Relentless, so Rubrics would be kinda like Servitors. Finally, there needs to be a way to take an all-sorceror squad. There's the Librarius Conclave AND (again) GK squads that all effectively do the psychic phase harder than Tzeentch marines right now.

Plague Marines, I feel, are in a good place right now. They're decent and have a good amount of options. I do wish they'd return the "Death Guard Havocs" though, Plague Marines that take up a HS slot but bring 4 special weapons.

Khorne Berserkers need a complete overhaul. Chainaxes should be standard equipment, not something you should purchase. Mark of Khorne needs to go back to granting +1 attack and Run and Charge. Berserkers need to drop back to 20 points a pop. Also, we need Juggernaut-mounted Khorne Berserkers. This is loooong overdue.

Noise Marines are decent right now, they just need a points drop to keep up with the SM's points drop. 16 I feel is a good number. Also Close Combat Weapons, Bolt Pistols and Bolters should all be standard on them. As with the Death Guard, there should be a return of the "Noise Marine Havocs", where you can take 4 Blastmasters in a single squad of 5 in a HS slot or something. They also need to bring back the Sonic Dread in the core codex (and not leave it as a Forge World exclusive). Sonic Blasters should be assault weapons, not Salvo. If it must have two different firing modes, make at least one of them Assault and the other one Heavy, don't make the "runny" variant preclude assault.

Also Chosen need to go back to being badass again. I propose a full overhaul; make them the Chaos version of Paladins; each Chosen has full access to the armory that any normal character would, have 2 wounds each and WS5. These guys are a step down from being full fledged Chaos Lords, they should really show it. Alternatively, bring back Veteran Skills but only for these guys and still give them full access to the armory; make them the "do what you need" unit of Chaos.

Finally, we need Rhinos with assault ramps. Not even new vehicles, just Rhinos with assault ramps. Maybe make them open topped instead, so the rhinos are much more fragile, but more worth it, but it's needed. Most of the problems with the above units are mobility and the reason they got nerfed so hard was because of the introduction of the Assault Vehicle rule.

I love the idea of being forced into challenges. It just makes sense fluff wise.

It actually makes no sense fluff wise.

Most legions/warbands are too concerned with their own lives to throw them away meaninglessly. The fact that they have a Forced Challenges rule directly contradicts why they no longer have ATSKNF. They feal fear now, they aren't honour bound or willing to sacrifice themselves anymore. The only Legion I think you could make a strong argument for forced challenges is for World Eaters. And with them, they may be so lost to the butchers nails, they may not even understand anything beyond killing.

I'm not necessarily opposed to having some kind of boon table. But the catch is, If you make a boon table that people actually want to roll on, you won't need a rule that forces challenges because people will already want to challenge in order to roll on the table. It's like that stupid U2 album that they gave everyone for free on itunes, If they made good music I would have gotten the album, but they didn't and instead forced it down everyone's throat and people complained.

If they do a boon table make it simple, not D66. Not to mention about 90% of those gifts are useless and would never even come close to being useful in a game. Most of the time I just pass on rolling to avoid having to open my book, and when I do roll, I don't even remember what I got.

4 Charts, one for each of the gods, roll one die, 6 results. 1 is bad and 6 is amazeballs. No Spawndom, no Daemonic Ascension.

If you are undivided, you decide what chart to roll on.

So you Chaos goons want legion rules, eh? Sure we'll give you legion rules. And by "legion rules" I mean "removal of all special and heavy weapon options from Troops." There, happy?

- GW design studio

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

I love the idea of being forced into challenges. It just makes sense fluff wise.

It actually makes no sense fluff wise.

Most legions/warbands are too concerned with their own lives to throw them away meaninglessly. The fact that they have a Forced Challenges rule directly contradicts why they no longer have ATSKNF. They feal fear now, they aren't honour bound or willing to sacrifice themselves anymore. The only Legion I think you could make a strong argument for forced challenges is for World Eaters. And with them, they may be so lost to the butchers nails, they may not even understand anything beyond killing.

I'm not necessarily opposed to having some kind of boon table. But the catch is, If you make a boon table that people actually want to roll on, you won't need a rule that forces challenges because people will already want to challenge in order to roll on the table. It's like that stupid U2 album that they gave everyone for free on itunes, If they made good music I would have gotten the album, but they didn't and instead forced it down everyone's throat and people complained.

If they do a boon table make it simple, not D66. Not to mention about 90% of those gifts are useless and would never even come close to being useful in a game. Most of the time I just pass on rolling to avoid having to open my book, and when I do roll, I don't even remember what I got.

4 Charts, one for each of the gods, roll one die, 6 results. 1 is bad and 6 is amazeballs. No Spawndom, no Daemonic Ascension.

If you are undivided, you decide what chart to roll on.

That's why I said I would prefer it was bound to gods or some system of character traits. They know fear, yes, but they are also proud warriors still. But csm leaders come in all kinds of colours, and forcing this on every single one is bad. I still like the idea as such though. And I would probably end up choosing it a lot if it was optional.

Forced challenges conflicts with the rest of their design. CSM don't have ATSKNF specifically because they're so self-serving that they'd rather run and save their own skins then fight an unwinnable battle for "muh glory". For what purpose then is an aspiring champion staring down a Hive Tyrant?

Aspiring Champion's should be the same cost of the rest of the squad's models and not be forced into challenges. The boon table can stay for flavor, or if it's too much of a net buff for AC's to go down in points and not have to challenge, change the reward for winning a challenge into something like the squad becomes stubborn for the rest of the game.

All I really want out of a CSM codex is it being able to playable against other armies. I don't want cheese, though I know we'll get it in some form.

Its been a pretty obvious design trend that with every recent codex update. Whatever model GW has recently remolded and resold at 200% their previous price or came out new is gonna be the hands down best option in the codex in most situations. Which is good news with the supposed rumors around for 1K sons players.

If they are doing a full overhaul of the model line like many are speculating, that means better rules all around for all the cult troops. Which are some of the oldest models in the line.

To be honest, as much as I'd like to put on my tinfoil hat and scream from the rooftops that GW hates Chaos, It only makes sense for the codex update to be taking this long if the model line is being redesigned. This is also assuming that GW does things that makes sense though. So take that with as much salt as you want.

Realistically, I foresee CSM getting an update as the either the last update of 7th or the first of 8th. Either option is pretty much a gamble, especially if the power level of the game changes between editions,

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Forced challenges conflicts with the rest of their design. CSM don't have ATSKNF specifically because they're so self-serving that they'd rather run and save their own skins then fight an unwinnable battle for "muh glory". For what purpose then is an aspiring champion staring down a Hive Tyrant?

Aspiring Champion's should be the same cost of the rest of the squad's models and not be forced into challenges. The boon table can stay for flavor, or if it's too much of a net buff for AC's to go down in points and not have to challenge, change the reward for winning a challenge into something like the squad becomes stubborn for the rest of the game.

That's the thing though, for some, achieving personal glory is the only reason worth living for. But I have to admit, I'm somewhat biased toward more martially oriented characters. And indeed, I imagine many an aspiring champion has failed to rise in rank (read: he died...or worse) precisely because they chose to do things beyond their reach. Obviously it makes little sense on a TSons sorcerer as has been pointed out, but yea, it does make sense fluff wise to me personally, just not on an army wide level.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

Its been a pretty obvious design trend that with every recent codex update. Whatever model GW has recently remolded and resold at 200% their previous price or came out new is gonna be the hands down best option in the codex in most situations. Which is good news with the supposed rumors around for 1K sons players.

I'm sick and fething tired of this slowed "argument"
For every new model that has amazballs rule, you got another new model that came out at the same time and has utterly worthless rules.

GW have a lot of problems, but intentionally making OP rules for new models is not one of them. they just make enough mistakes so that OP choices come up. for some reason people seem to forget all the lousy choices ever game out though.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:

Its been a pretty obvious design trend that with every recent codex update. Whatever model GW has recently remolded and resold at 200% their previous price or came out new is gonna be the hands down best option in the codex in most situations. Which is good news with the supposed rumors around for 1K sons players.

I'm sick and fething tired of this slowed "argument"
For every new model that has amazballs rule, you got another new model that came out at the same time and has utterly worthless rules.

GW have a lot of problems, but intentionally making OP rules for new models is not one of them. they just make enough mistakes so that OP choices come up. for some reason people seem to forget all the lousy choices ever game out though.

Yeah, I totally agree with this.

It's almost like GW has a boon table of sorts when they create new units and codices.

Roll a d66. Oh look, Vect is gone!

Roll a d66. Oh snap, Wulfen can run and charge!

Roll a d66. Looks like Skulltaker can't buy a juggernaut any more!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:


3.) There have been increasing hints that GW wants to get rid of Slaanesh altogether, as his/her theme of sex, lust and excess are not exactly wholesome ideas for branching out into the mainstream (but for some reason gore, disease and body horror are). However doing so would be to take out a huge chunk of the estabilished fluff and literally negate 1/4th of the entire chaos army altogether, so again they're not exactly sure of what they're gonna do.

Well, I'll grant you the first two but the third isn't even remotely true. As much as some may wish it otherwise. Even in AOS they have backed of the debauchery or excess not even a bit. The prince will be back.

I think the main reason that its taking so long is that there is no advocate for Chaos Marines on the Design Team. Even the one that have chaos marine armies have other pet armies they like better...cough...Phill Kelly...cough That and they don't know how to brand them. Removing Chaos Daemons removed allot of what made CSM special. If you go by the current codex, they though daemon engines were the answer. So CSM are kind of directionless right now.

Alas, nowadays really enemies of the Imperium are those filthy Xenos. Chaos Marines are those poor relations one doesn't speak of in polite company.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

I love the idea of being forced into challenges. It just makes sense fluff wise.

It actually makes no sense fluff wise.

Most legions/warbands are too concerned with their own lives to throw them away meaninglessly. The fact that they have a Forced Challenges rule directly contradicts why they no longer have ATSKNF. They feal fear now, they aren't honour bound or willing to sacrifice themselves anymore. The only Legion I think you could make a strong argument for forced challenges is for World Eaters. And with them, they may be so lost to the butchers nails, they may not even understand anything beyond killing.

I'm not necessarily opposed to having some kind of boon table. But the catch is, If you make a boon table that people actually want to roll on, you won't need a rule that forces challenges because people will already want to challenge in order to roll on the table. It's like that stupid U2 album that they gave everyone for free on itunes, If they made good music I would have gotten the album, but they didn't and instead forced it down everyone's throat and people complained.

If they do a boon table make it simple, not D66. Not to mention about 90% of those gifts are useless and would never even come close to being useful in a game. Most of the time I just pass on rolling to avoid having to open my book, and when I do roll, I don't even remember what I got.

4 Charts, one for each of the gods, roll one die, 6 results. 1 is bad and 6 is amazeballs. No Spawndom, no Daemonic Ascension.

If you are undivided, you decide what chart to roll on.

For crazy, Chaos-worshipping warrior seeking the approval of the gods it makes sense. I'm not a big fan of mandatory challenges, but boons for slaying people in the name of Chaos is fluffy.

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer challenges to be optional, but I'd love to keep boons. I'm not too fussed with the D66, a simplification would be nice though, but I love Spawndom and Daemonic Possession.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Rubric marines should lose inferno bolts and get a big pts drop. The sorcerer should be at least ML2, and have ridiculous awesome psychic powers. The rubrics should be purely ablative wounds for the sorcerer. Maybe even give them 2 wounds. Then they'd have a lot more going for them.

Or we change the MoT, get rid of SaP, give them Relentless and make them a non-force org unit (like 6E Honour Guard) and make them available as a "body guard" unit for MoT Sorcerers. Maybe make them assaulty... give them a Pseudo-Brotherhood of Psykers and give them all force weapons.

Ranged force weapon bolters would be fun.

Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.

I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,

 Deadshot wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.

I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,

If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.

Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.

Seeing as how Daemon kin used a Possessed tax, I'm sure CSM will have to take some sort of Terminator tax as well... or worse Chosen!

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Seeing as how Daemon kin used a Possessed tax, I'm sure CSM will have to take some sort of Terminator tax as well... or worse Chosen!

Or worst of all, BOTH!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.

I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,

If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.

Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.

The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.

I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,

If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.

Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.

The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.

Yeah, if you kill enough SM sergeants and roll lucky enough on the table, your Chaos Lord could even be the equal of a SM Chapter Master!

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.

I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,

If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.

Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.

The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.

Yeah, if you kill enough SM sergeants and roll lucky enough on the table, your Chaos Lord could even be the equal of a SM Chapter Master!

Not quite... You're forgetting that Chapter Masters will naturally come with upgrades, at which point, they can still lord it over even a 10-times blessed Chaos Lord.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.

I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,

If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.

Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.

The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.

Yeah, if you kill enough SM sergeants and roll lucky enough on the table, your Chaos Lord could even be the equal of a SM Chapter Master!

Not quite... You're forgetting that Chapter Masters will naturally come with upgrades, at which point, they can still lord it over even a 10-times blessed Chaos Lord.

Except you're comparing a Chaos Lord to a Chapter Master when Lords have always been the counterpart to Captains.

 Deadshot wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Just had an idea about the mandatory challenges and chaos boons, what if champion of chaos remained unchanged but became optional, as in, it costs no points to add or remove it, it's just something you can take if you want and if you don't you don't have too.

I think the best way is in between. You present mandatory challenges for a random bonus, or nothing. Meet in the middle. I suggest that each time you win a challenge you gain a bonus. An optional risk/reward system,

If they made it voluntary then they'd have to make the results on the table good enough that people would want to try to roll on it. But part of the theme of Chaos is the results are bad as often as they're good and even when they're good you pay a much higher price in other ways. Only fools and madmen would knowingly go down that path. But Chaos entices you with promises and lies and by the time you realize the truth it's too late but you don't blame yourself because how could you have known, no you blame the powers that be who turned their back on you and raised your rivals up to lord over you and sure you could put your army up on eBay and start a SM army but instead you come on Dakka and complain/mope/wishlist and stew in your hate and bitterness for eternity waiting for the day when you will return to glory even though that day will never come until the end of all things.

Wow GW did a really good job designing this army.

The bonuses are already pretty good, some are daft. Some are great. Stuff like +1 BS sucks, stuff like free EW, +1T FNP, other potentially great benefits. A Nurgle Biker Lord can potentially go up to T7 FNP and EW and IWND, which is going to make a meal out of any shots coming his way.
But you also have the downsides of stuff like Spawnhood and potentially Daemonhood.

Yeah, if you kill enough SM sergeants and roll lucky enough on the table, your Chaos Lord could even be the equal of a SM Chapter Master!

Not quite... You're forgetting that Chapter Masters will naturally come with upgrades, at which point, they can still lord it over even a 10-times blessed Chaos Lord.

Except you're comparing a Chaos Lord to a Chapter Master when Lords have always been the counterpart to Captains.

Exactly. Everyone knows that Abaddon is the Chapter Master of the CSM.

I have an entire notebook filled with crazy ideas for this.

First off, I do NOT want 6 different books. I think you can do a good job with one big book along the lines of the size of the loyalist book but maybe cut some fluff to add in some of the new rules. The core book would be the "Generic Warbands" like it is now. From there you can decide to just stick to your basic generic war band OR to pick a Legion and build an army based on the Legion rules. The next section would be the "Lost and Damned" section and include a small group of units/vehicles for cultists and Renegade guard units and a basic set of Dark Mechanics rules to add to your list. Finally, you would have the God's Specific section. This would have a basic set of rules and some additional new units to run mono dedicated lists.

This way, there would still be supplements that go into more detail (like Demonkin), but you could still play basically anything out of one book.

Some specific ideas I've had:
some people like the boon table. Almost everyone hates "champions of chaos". So dump the rule and keep the table for the one upgrade you can buy for a chance to roll on it. Make it optional though. As constructed it makes no sense. There is not one single situation in which becoming a demon prince should make you WORSE than you were before you became a prince. Yet in almost every case, I'd rather keep the character I built rather than make him a generic demon prince.

Warpsmith:
Lower his points and bring him a little more in line with how the loyalist version works so that he becomes useful

Dark Apostle:
Dump his entry. Completely. It's a total fail on every level. Instead, make this an upgrade to the Chaos Lord entry. It would allow your Lord to function like the Dark Apostles in the fluff. It would allow him to take Psychic powers and would also have some rules to allow better integration of Demons. For example, imagine if, when you roll to summon demons, you could use a unit of Cultists as homing beacons. With a successful casting, your unit of cultists is replaced with the unit of Bloodletters you just summoned.

Mutilators:
Lower the points a little and dump SnP

Warp Talons:
Allow them to charge when they arrive. You could probably keep the points "as is" if you give them this ability.

Defiler:
Make this "customizable". As currently constructed, this unit is way over-priced and completely schizophrenic. Make the base unit a bare bones selection with selectable weapon options so that you can decide if it will be built of CC, shooting, or some combination.

Vehicles:
New Land Raider options and some cheaper "chaos" type transports including things like Dreadclaws.

Some formations that take advantage of the awesome CSM fast attack slot.

Give us some ways to have slightly more reliable deep-strike as well and then we're good imo.