My buddy put 2 10 man squads of scouts in drop pods. Dropped them into my deployment zone. Combat squaded them into 2 squads each. Dropped 5 vanguard vet squads without deviation within 9" inches of the scouts. Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders.

ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

1st turn assault in my deployment zone by 30 power ax wielding vanguard vets is a little broken.

What's the question?

Outside of needing a second detachment to get Drop Pods for Scouts, I don't see any issues here.

There is a rule that states: "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve." Arriving From Reserves is during the Start of the Turn, nothing separates the timing of the Roll with the timing of the deployment. So, while the Vanguard could still come in, technically they would not be able to use the Scouts to be On Target.

...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

 ArmyC wrote:
.... Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders......

You deserved it

If you don't like this to happen buy screeners or play reserve chicken it isn't that hard not to get charged by them and you would murder all those vets in one or two rounds of shooting.

 ArmyC wrote:
My buddy put 2 10 man squads of scouts in drop pods. Dropped them into my deployment zone. Combat squaded them into 2 squads each. Dropped 5 vanguard vet squads without deviation within 9" inches of the scouts. Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders.

ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

1st turn assault in my deployment zone by 30 power ax wielding vanguard vets is a little broken.

I do not see anything in that formation that allows the Vanguards to arrive turn 1.

Was there something else that allowed the vets to arrive turn 1?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
My buddy put 2 10 man squads of scouts in drop pods. Dropped them into my deployment zone. Combat squaded them into 2 squads each. Dropped 5 vanguard vet squads without deviation within 9" inches of the scouts. Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders.

ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

1st turn assault in my deployment zone by 30 power ax wielding vanguard vets is a little broken.

I do not see anything in that formation that allows the Vanguards to arrive turn 1.

Was there something else that allowed the vets to arrive turn 1?

You missed the bold part.

Lets speed things up :
The reason why you can reserve on turn 1
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-62fZyQNC-GU/Vi0DVtxfjAI/AAAAAAAAQlg/iEgmBheYRH0/s1600/01.PNG

The reason why you can assault on the deepstrike turn .
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1mbt4w0ksss/Vi0DvphtqJI/AAAAAAAAQmA/M6uG4a6-Qxg/s1600/04.PNG

It works get over it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
My buddy put 2 10 man squads of scouts in drop pods. Dropped them into my deployment zone. Combat squaded them into 2 squads each. Dropped 5 vanguard vet squads without deviation within 9" inches of the scouts. Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders.

ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

1st turn assault in my deployment zone by 30 power ax wielding vanguard vets is a little broken.

I do not see anything in that formation that allows the Vanguards to arrive turn 1.

Was there something else that allowed the vets to arrive turn 1?

You missed the bold part.

Weird, I didn't see that in the formations rules.

Because it isn't it is a raven decurion style benefit its not in the killteam formation.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Because it isn't it is a raven decurion style benefit its not in the killteam formation.

So the reserve rolls do not work for the Shadowstrike Kill Team formation.

So how did he bring in Shadowstrike Kill Team members when they are not a part of the Talon Strike Force detachment?

Unless it was the Auxiliary Formation then that makes sense.

Ugh. Lets give you an hint.
The reason starts with Aux.. and ends with ..iary

DarknessEternal wrote:...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

True, but the no Scatter portion would not have been allowed on a turn that the Scouts Deep Striked.

DeathReaper wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Because it isn't it is a raven decurion style benefit its not in the killteam formation.

So the reserve rolls do not work for the Shadowstrike Kill Team formation.

So how did he bring in Shadowstrike Kill Team members when they are not a part of the Talon Strike Force detachment?

Unless it was the Auxiliary Formation then that makes sense.

It is. Zoggy just missed a comma or a period. It should have read:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Because it isn't, it is a raven decurion style benefit, its not in the killteam formation.

From the OP:

ArmyC wrote:
ALL ON TURN 1. Talon Strike Force allows 1st turn reserves on 4+. Shadow strike Kill Team allows to pass or fail reserve rolls, and deep strike charge.

The Shadowstrike Kill Team is listed as an Auxiliary Choice for the Talon Strike Force, which in turn provides the 1st Turn Reserves Roll.

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

True, but the no Scatter portion would not have been allowed on a turn that the Scouts Deep Striked.

What rules support that claim?

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ugh. Lets give you an hint.
The reason starts with Aux.. and ends with ..iary

Did you read what I wrote?

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

True, but the no Scatter portion would not have been allowed on a turn that the Scouts Deep Striked.

What rules support that claim?

From what I said earlier:

Charistoph wrote:There is a rule that states: "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve." Arriving From Reserves is during the Start of the Turn, nothing separates the timing of the Roll with the timing of the deployment. So, while the Vanguard could still come in, technically they would not be able to use the Scouts to be On Target.

The ability to Charge after Deep Strike is not dependent upon the Scouts, but the ability to Deep Strike without Scatter is.

…On Target: Vanguard Veteran Squads from this Formation can charge on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. In addition, they do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike if the first model is placed within 9″ of at least two Scout Squads from this Formation.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ugh. Lets give you an hint.
The reason starts with Aux.. and ends with ..iary

Did you read what I wrote?

Jup but I replied before or during your edit. ; )

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:...On Target specifically allows charging on the turn they arrive from Reserve.

True, but the no Scatter portion would not have been allowed on a turn that the Scouts Deep Striked.

What rules support that claim?

From what I said earlier:

Charistoph wrote:There is a rule that states: "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve." Arriving From Reserves is during the Start of the Turn, nothing separates the timing of the Roll with the timing of the deployment. So, while the Vanguard could still come in, technically they would not be able to use the Scouts to be On Target.

The ability to Charge after Deep Strike is not dependent upon the Scouts, but the ability to Deep Strike without Scatter is.

…On Target: Vanguard Veteran Squads from this Formation can charge on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. In addition, they do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike if the first model is placed within 9″ of at least two Scout Squads from this Formation.

The Scouts aren't using the ability. The Veterans are. The Scouts are just sitting there. If you bring in the Drop Pods first and then bring in the Veterans, they wouldn't scatter so long as the first model is within 9" of two Scout Squads.

Is your contention that the Scouts are the ones using an ability? If so, I'm missing what they're doing exactly. Seems like they're just sitting there and the Veterans are the ones who are doing something.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
Ugh. Lets give you an hint.
The reason starts with Aux.. and ends with ..iary

Did you read what I wrote?

Jup but I replied before or during your edit. ; )

well 5 minutes after...

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts aren't using the ability. The Veterans are. The Scouts are just sitting there. If you bring in the Drop Pods first and then bring in the Veterans, they wouldn't scatter so long as the first model is within 9" of two Scout Squads.

Is your contention that the Scouts are the ones using an ability? If so, I'm missing what they're doing exactly. Seems like they're just sitting there and the Veterans are the ones who are doing something.

The Scouts provide the ability and are incorporated in the rule. They are the equivalent of a Teleport Homer in many respects (though that ones still has its own language forbidding it).

But it is still an ability of the Scouts to act like that Teleport Homer and a rule the Scouts must have in order for it to work. And it has to work while Arriving From Reserves which is the Start of the Turn.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts aren't using the ability. The Veterans are. The Scouts are just sitting there. If you bring in the Drop Pods first and then bring in the Veterans, they wouldn't scatter so long as the first model is within 9" of two Scout Squads.

Is your contention that the Scouts are the ones using an ability? If so, I'm missing what they're doing exactly. Seems like they're just sitting there and the Veterans are the ones who are doing something.

The Scouts provide the ability and are incorporated in the rule. They are the equivalent of a Teleport Homer in many respects (though that ones still has its own language forbidding it).

But it is still an ability of the Scouts to act like that Teleport Homer and a rule the Scouts must have in order for it to work. And it has to work while Arriving From Reserves which is the Start of the Turn.

the rule just says if arrives within 9" of a scout unit, it says nothing or request the scouts should be already on the table or that this won't work on an unit who arrived in the same turn from reserves so RAW as long he deep strike at 9" of 2x scouts squads he can do it.

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts aren't using the ability. The Veterans are. The Scouts are just sitting there. If you bring in the Drop Pods first and then bring in the Veterans, they wouldn't scatter so long as the first model is within 9" of two Scout Squads.

Is your contention that the Scouts are the ones using an ability? If so, I'm missing what they're doing exactly. Seems like they're just sitting there and the Veterans are the ones who are doing something.

The Scouts provide the ability and are incorporated in the rule. They are the equivalent of a Teleport Homer in many respects (though that ones still has its own language forbidding it).

But it is still an ability of the Scouts to act like that Teleport Homer and a rule the Scouts must have in order for it to work. And it has to work while Arriving From Reserves which is the Start of the Turn.

the rule just says if arrives within 9" of a scout unit, it says nothing or request the scouts should be already on the table or that this won't work on an unit who arrived in the same turn from reserves so RAW as long he deep strike at 9" of 2x scouts squads he can do it.

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

 Ghaz wrote:

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

Which of these rules, exactly, are covered by the main rulebook.

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

Which of these rules, exactly, are covered by the main rulebook.

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

The rule I quoted is in Moving On From Reserves.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

Which of these rules, exactly, are covered by the main rulebook.

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

I think they refer to this part.

"A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve."

But as i pointed the Shadowstrike formation rules wich allow to deploy without scatter says absolutely nothing about the scouts needing to be in the table before reserves arrives, all it says if Vanguards deploy within 9" of 2x scout units of this formation they don't scatter.

I sure understand that RAI it's deploying near the scouts (under the premise they infiltrated ahead) but RAW there is no restriction.

I'm still curious as to how both pods came in Turn 1. Unless there was another Pod that wasn't mentioned.

 Happyjew wrote:
I'm still curious as to how both pods came in Turn 1. Unless there was another Pod that wasn't mentioned.

maybe there was a 3rd maybe he was just lucky as the formation allows to deploy reserves on 1st turn with a 4+, wich would explain why he choose to combat squad the scouts, as this allows it to perform the trick with just 1x pod and do it flawlessly if the 2nd comes too.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
.... Charged and murdered 5 units of Warp Spiders......

You deserved it

If you don't like this to happen buy screeners or play reserve chicken it isn't that hard not to get charged by them and you would murder all those vets in one or two rounds of shooting.

This.

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
I'm still curious as to how both pods came in Turn 1. Unless there was another Pod that wasn't mentioned.

maybe there was a 3rd maybe he was just lucky as the formation allows to deploy reserves on 1st turn with a 4+, wich would explain why he choose to combat squad the scouts, as this allows it to perform the trick with just 1x pod and do it flawlessly if the 2nd comes too.

Except the Pod does not have permission to role on Turn 1, and if you are rolling for the unit, you are not rolling for the Pod (as required by Drop Pod Assault).

I assumed the Pods came from a separate CAD, as that's the only way to put the Scouts in them.

Then, if there were at least 3 pods in the overall army, these 2 could have been the ones that arrive on turn 1.

The only Reserves being "rolled" for is the Vanguard, and they can choose to auto-pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Perversor wrote:

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

I think they refer to this part.

"A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve."

 DarknessEternal wrote:

That rule is overridden by the formation though. And those rules have already been posted in the thread.

The ability to Charge is overridden, the ability for the Scouts to be Deep Strike Homers is not. Just because you override one part of a sentence doesn't mean override all the rest that is not mentioned.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

Would they need to repeat a rule in the unit's army list entry if its already covered by the main rulebook?

Which of these rules, exactly, are covered by the main rulebook.

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

The rule I quoted is in Moving On From Reserves.

Does the rule for On Target say anything about "If the scouts begin their turn..." or "At the Start of your turn"? Otherwise it doesn't necessarily require the scouts to start the turn on the board to function. Things like Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons have such wording in their rules, On Target does not.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

That rule is overridden by the formation though. And those rules have already been posted in the thread.

The ability to Charge is overridden, the ability for the Scouts to be Deep Strike Homers is not. Just because you override one part of a sentence doesn't mean override all the rest that is not mentioned.

There's no imperative for the Scouts to have been there at the beginning of the turn.

They are not Teleport Homers. Teleport Homer rules do not apply here, just as in the same way Shuriken Catapult rules do not apply here.

Aren't the vet units the ones using the special rule?

casvalremdeikun wrote:Does the rule for On Target say anything about "If the scouts begin their turn..." or "At the Start of your turn"? Otherwise it doesn't necessarily require the scouts to start the turn on the board to function. Things like Teleport Homers and Locator Beacons have such wording in their rules, On Target does not.

Arriving From Reserves is part of the Start of the Turn process. It has its own restrictions which do not always need to be presented again in the rules.

DarknessEternal wrote:
There's no imperative for the Scouts to have been there at the beginning of the turn.

They are not Teleport Homers. Teleport Homer rules do not apply here, just as in the same way Shuriken Catapult rules do not apply here.

Not by ...On Target, but abilities that are used at the Start of the Turn cannot be used when you arrived from Reserves. The Scouts units cannot be recognized as on the board for this occasion.

jokerkd wrote:Aren't the vet units the ones using the special rule?

Their position, but providing that position is still an ability of the Scouts.

It's a stretch to say the scouts have the ability to make the rule work.
They are really just part of a condition for the vanguards using the rule

He had 1st turn. From reserve 3 units of Van Vets, combat squad to 5 units and 2 10 man units of scouts in allied pods arrived. There was a third drop pod in reserve but he failed the 4+ roll for that one. (it had 5 command squad grav gun dudes with a white scar HQ that gives relentless so he gets full salvo, ingoring cover shots)

Scouts used drop pods from White scars allied detachment. He placed, deviated, combat squad, disembarked, the two 10 man scout squads in allied pods in succession. Then placed 5 vet squads 2 inches away from my warp spiders, and assaulted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not to make the stupid mistake of injecting reality into 40k rules, but in truth, the vets and the scouts are plummeting to earth simultaneously. So the vets cannot land 9" away from scouts that are not on the ground yet.

The vets were combat squads too i take it?

 ArmyC wrote:
Not to make the stupid mistake of injecting reality into 40k rules, but in truth, the vets and the scouts are plummeting to earth simultaneously. So the vets cannot land 9" away from scouts that are not on the ground yet.

But in game mechanics the Scouts are there, so you can be within 9 inches of them.

 jokerkd wrote:
The vets were combat squads too i take it?

Probably not. the formation is up to 5 vet squads.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
Not to make the stupid mistake of injecting reality into 40k rules, but in truth, the vets and the scouts are plummeting to earth simultaneously. So the vets cannot land 9" away from scouts that are not on the ground yet.

But in game mechanics the Scouts are there, so you can be within 9 inches of them.

 jokerkd wrote:
The vets were combat squads too i take it?

Probably not. the formation is up to 5 vet squads.

1-3 iirc

Hi guys-

New user here. ArmyC is my long time gaming buddy and it was I who assaulted him on turn one. Please forgive me if I do not follow proper forum etiquette with my list posting. My army (if memory serves) for last weekend's 2000 pt game was as follows:

Talon Strike Force (Ravenguard)
...Demi-Company
Chaplain with Raven's Fury
Command Squad Grav x5 Pod
Tac Squad ML
Tac Squad ML
Tac Squad ML
Attack Bike MM
Dev Squad ML x3

...Shadow Strike Kill Team (Ravenguard)
Scouts x10
Scouts x10
VV power axe x10
VV power axe x10
VV power axe x5

CAD (White Scars)
Cataphractii Term Capt with Relic Blade & Hunter's Eye
Tac Squad melta
Tac Squad melta
FA Pod
FA Pod

Scouts were in FA Pods and combat squad-ed. Term Capt joined the command squad in the third pod. I won the roll for first turn. VV were combat squad-ed. I hope this helps clear up any confusion, and thank you to everyone who has offered replies and opinions. I should also note that we do not participate in any tournament formats like ITC and play RAW as much as we are able.

 jokerkd wrote:
It's a stretch to say the scouts have the ability to make the rule work.
They are really just part of a condition for the vanguards using the rule

Okay, then demonstrate how it works either with Scouts without this rule or no Scouts whatsoever.

Demonstrate how this has a rule stating the Scouts needed to be there at the beginning of the turn.

@ Charistoph just read the formation and the detachment rules and replace for a moment the word "scouts" with " frogs"

Now immagine the frog unit having no wargear and no special rules. you see it sill works.

@robisabee just for fun could you also post your list ?

 Charistoph wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
It's a stretch to say the scouts have the ability to make the rule work.
They are really just part of a condition for the vanguards using the rule

Okay, then demonstrate how it works either with Scouts without this rule or no Scouts whatsoever.

Do the scouts actually have the rule? It seems to me that this a case of

"Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together.

On second thought, that may just mean that it lists USRs instead of explaining them.

Either way. Assuming that the scouts do not have the rule, would you still say it would not work?

Mini Rulebook page 136 "Moving on from reserve" section

It says and I quote "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

So from what I can tell this comes down to a question of do the formation rules count as "abilities or special rules" and if they are "used". How do you define what being "used" means? Similar things in the game that relate to this kind of thing such as teleporter homers specify that they dont work if they arrive from reserve. The scouts in this formation and the rules associated with them do not mention and requirement for them to be on the board turn 1 before deepstriking or reserve rolls/moves are made.

First we must resolve if the formation rule counts as special rules or abilities that must be used. Do we USE the formation bonus the same way we use a melta bomb?

I am honestly not sure. I would go with that technically yes you could do it but only because other things that allow for modified reserve rolls (Teleporter Homers) specify restrictions where as the formation does not. However I say that with a 55/45 mindset on if its legal.

DarknessEternal wrote:Demonstrate how this has a rule stating the Scouts needed to be there at the beginning of the turn.

Already demonstrated with the requirement that Start of the Turn abilities cannot be used when you arrive from Deep Strike.

jokerkd wrote:Do the scouts actually have the rule? It seems to me that this a case of

"Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific units together.

On second thought, that may just mean that it lists USRs instead of explaining them.

Either way. Assuming that the scouts do not have the rule, would you still say it would not work?

And the Codex Marines Datasheet legend states under FORMATIONS:

A Formation datasheet will list the Army List Entries which make up the Formation, any restrictions upon what it may include, and any special rules the Formation’s units gain.

In addition from earlier in the same Datasheet Legend:

Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this EPUB or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

No separation between Formation Special Rules and Unit Special Rules is really noted as not apply to the models in question. In addition:

...On Target: Vanguard Veteran Squads from this Formation can charge on the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. In addition, they do not scatter when arriving from Deep Strike if the first model is placed within 9″ of at least two Scout Squads from this Formation.

I was using the case that they Scout Squads have the rule to indicate they are from the same Formation. That basic standard isn't always the case in situations where you have two or more Shadowstrike Kill Teams, however. I was only addressing it as if there was only one in the army.

Tibs Ironblood wrote:Mini Rulebook page 136 "Moving on from reserve" section

It says and I quote "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve."

So from what I can tell this comes down to a question of do the formation rules count as "abilities or special rules" and if they are "used". How do you define what being "used" means? Similar things in the game that relate to this kind of thing such as teleporter homers specify that they dont work if they arrive from reserve. The scouts in this formation and the rules associated with them do not mention and requirement for them to be on the board turn 1 before deepstriking or reserve rolls/moves are made.

Considering that the Formation Datasheets list them under Special Rules the same place they put in things like "Relentless" and "Move Through Cover" (in the case of the Necron Reclamation Legion), I can quite safely state that they are Special Rules, and Special Rules are defined as "abilities" in their Introduction.

P.S. the rulebook pages are the same whether hardback or softback. Digital books, however have page numbers set by the device and the program using them per the font size used, picture resizing, etc (assuming page numbers are even used on the digital).

Tibs Ironblood wrote:I am honestly not sure. I would go with that technically yes you could do it but only because other things that allow for modified reserve rolls (Teleporter Homers) specify restrictions where as the formation does not. However I say that with a 55/45 mindset on if its legal.

The real question is has been asked, is if using the Scouts as a Teleport Homer dependent on the Scouts being able to "use" it or if only the Vanguards actually use it. Most here are of the opinion that the Scouts are not actually using it, but just ancillary to their use, and only the Vanguard are actually using this rule.

If the Vanguard are the only ones using this rule, the inherent permission to overcome the Moving On From Reserves is provided by overriding the Scatter (which can only be performed in the Start of Turn for a normal Deep Strike).

 Charistoph wrote:
Already demonstrated with the requirement that Start of the Turn abilities cannot be used when you arrive from Deep Strike.

There is no start of turn ability though.

I think it's fair to say that a rule allowing you to deep strike without scatter is an ability that must be used at the start of the turn.
I just don't agree that it's the scout's ability

If the raven guard formation rule was required to be used at the start of the turn then rules pertaining to that might be relevant.

It however does not have that stipulation in it at all.

Besides which, it is not even a rule the scouts are using, the vets are the ones using it.

RAW yes, this will prevent scatter for the vets

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I assumed the Pods came from a separate CAD, as that's the only way to put the Scouts in them.

Then, if there were at least 3 pods in the overall army, these 2 could have been the ones that arrive on turn 1.

The only Reserves being "rolled" for is the Vanguard, and they can choose to auto-pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Perversor wrote:

Specifically, where's the rule that says a unit arriving by reserve can't use rules which they are specifically given.

I think they refer to this part.

"A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve."

That rule is overridden by the formation though. And those rules have already been posted in the thread.

 easysauce wrote:
If the raven guard formation rule was required to be used at the start of the turn then rules pertaining to that might be relevant.

It however does not have that stipulation in it at all.

Aside from Gate of Infinity-type situations, can you identify any Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines that are not tied to the Start of the Turn?

Interestingly enough, ...On Target still works with Gate of Infinity. There is no stipulation of Deep Strike Reserves.

 Charistoph wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
If the raven guard formation rule was required to be used at the start of the turn then rules pertaining to that might be relevant.

It however does not have that stipulation in it at all.

Aside from Gate of Infinity-type situations, can you identify any Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines that are not tied to the Start of the Turn?

Interestingly enough, ...On Target still works with Gate of Infinity. There is no stipulation of Deep Strike Reserves.

Nope but i can identify all Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines and even Tyranids (that provide no scatter) stating the unit must be on the table at the beginning of the turn.

Shadowstrike do not come with such clause and as such it's not an ability that *must be used at the beginning of the turn* You can argue all you want, probably an oversight by GW perfect rules team but RAW they don't scatter as long they deploy within 9" of 2x scouts units of formation

The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

Eh... The scouts do nothing and the vets have an ability that only requires arriving close by the scouts. Quite aside from the ability giving no limitation (unlike Teleport homers and so on) I fail to see what use an arrival ability is if the vets can't use it until the turn after they arrive...

This thread has become nonsense.

People are claiming the words are different words than what is written.

Everything about the OP works. There's no reason to think it might not.

Lord Perversor wrote:Nope but i can identify all Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines and even Tyranids (that provide no scatter) stating the unit must be on the table at the beginning of the turn.

Shadowstrike do not come with such clause and as such it's not an ability that *must be used at the beginning of the turn* You can argue all you want, probably an oversight by GW perfect rules team but RAW they don't scatter as long they deploy within 9" of 2x scouts units of formation

Just because other situations provide specific restrictions, doesn't mean that it is required to state such in all rules, especially when other rules already cover it.

The only concept of actual relevance is:

Spetulhu wrote:Eh... The scouts do nothing and the vets have an ability that only requires arriving close by the scouts. Quite aside from the ability giving no limitation (unlike Teleport homers and so on) I fail to see what use an arrival ability is if the vets can't use it until the turn after they arrive...

But this is not quite true. The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

The Vets are definitely using the rule in that they are the ones who are not scattering due to the rule.

 ArmyC wrote:
The Vets are definitely using the rule in that they are the ones who are not scattering due to the rule.

But the Scouts in the Formation provide that ability for the Vanguard to use. No other unit can. It is in providing that ability that they are forbidden to provide if they Arrived From Reserves in that same Turn.

Really, it is the only thing that could go wrong with the OP's situation. As many have pointed out, it is not an interpretation that many will agree with.

I think you're going to have an uphill battle convincing a lot of people that the scouts are doing anything outside what is allowed by the core rules. The Vets on the other hand, are. They're checking to see what other units are on the table when they land and then rolling or not rolling scatter based on what they see.

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
I think you're going to have an uphill battle convincing a lot of people that the scouts are doing anything outside what is allowed by the core rules. The Vets on the other hand, are. They're checking to see what other units are on the table when they land and then rolling or not rolling scatter based on what they see.

As evidenced by the responses on this forum.

If it wasn't specific units involved, I would agree completely. However, it IS those specific units, so there is leeway in the interpretation, albeit not a large one.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kriswall wrote:
I think you're going to have an uphill battle convincing a lot of people that the scouts are doing anything outside what is allowed by the core rules. The Vets on the other hand, are. They're checking to see what other units are on the table when they land and then rolling or not rolling scatter based on what they see.

As evidenced by the responses on this forum.

If it wasn't specific units involved, I would agree completely. However, it IS those specific units, so there is leeway in the interpretation, albeit not a large one.

Yup. Enough leeway for a good, old fashioned YMDC bicker fest. Realistically, both the intent and the actual rules are somewhat ambiguous. I think you'd just want to confirm with a TO or opponent before committing to the list.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.

Got a rules quote that says it overrides it?

I have not found one.

 Charistoph wrote:
The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

Well, yes - but it's an ability of the Formation Vanguards, not the Scouts. Though I agree this might be an unintentional thing. The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.

Got a rules quote that says it overrides it?

I have not found one.

Review the first paragraph of Deep Strike and Arriving by Deep Strike. How does it define Deep Strike Reserves? What is the first step to Arrive by Deep Strike?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

Well, yes - but it's an ability of the Formation Vanguards, not the Scouts. Though I agree this might be an unintentional thing. The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Not quite. They have to be Scouts of THAT Formation, no other Scouts would do. It is an ability the Vanguard use, but the Scouts provide it.

Not that the method of Arrival From Reserves really matters. Sometimes Scouts come in via Outflank (not often, really, Infiltrate is usually better) and can take their own Dedicated Transport to zip along with.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

Well, yes - but it's an ability of the Formation Vanguards, not the Scouts. Though I agree this might be an unintentional thing. The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Scouts could just as easily deep strike in Land Speeder Storms, and if I recall correctly it would only cost them 5 points more over the cost of a drop pod.

 Charistoph wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
The point is that reserves are done at the start of the turn. So anything that has abilities that happen then cannot be used that turn

If this were true Deep strike itself would not work...

It overrides this by being a form of Moving On From Reserves.

Got a rules quote that says it overrides it?

I have not found one.

Review the first paragraph of Deep Strike and Arriving by Deep Strike. How does it define Deep Strike Reserves? What is the first step to Arrive by Deep Strike?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
The Scouts specific to the Formation have the ability to provide no Scatter to the Vanguard. The Vanguard use that ability to not Scatter. It is not just any Scouts, but the specific Scouts to that same Formation.

Well, yes - but it's an ability of the Formation Vanguards, not the Scouts. Though I agree this might be an unintentional thing. The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Not quite. They have to be Scouts of THAT Formation, no other Scouts would do. It is an ability the Vanguard use, but the Scouts provide it.

Not that the method of Arrival From Reserves really matters. Sometimes Scouts come in via Outflank (not often, really, Infiltrate is usually better) and can take their own Dedicated Transport to zip along with.

The Scouts don't provide the rule to the Veterans... the Formation does.

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts don't provide the rule to the Veterans... the Formation does.

Not exactly what I said. Without those Scouts, the ability is not available to be used. Mayhaps the phrase should have been "the Scouts provide access to use the ability".

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts don't provide the rule to the Veterans... the Formation does.

Not exactly what I said. Without those Scouts, the ability is not available to be used. Mayhaps the phrase should have been "the Scouts provide assess to use the ability".

The Scouts don't provide access to the ability either. I see what you're trying to get at, though. The Formation provides access to the rule. The rule says the Veterans can do thing A and then might also be able to do thing B. The Veterans invoke the rule. The placement of the Veterans, in relation to the position of the Scouts impacts the results of the rule. At no point are the Scouts providing the Veterans with a rule. Also, at no point are the Scouts invoking the rule. The player never says "these Scouts are making use of the '...On Target' rule". The Veterans are subject to '...On Target' even if there aren't any Scouts on the board. The presence of Scouts merely modifies the outcome of the rule for the Veterans.

So ultimately, the question is, is being a condition of using the ability equal to granting the ability?

 Charistoph wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
If the raven guard formation rule was required to be used at the start of the turn then rules pertaining to that might be relevant.

It however does not have that stipulation in it at all.

Aside from Gate of Infinity-type situations, can you identify any Deep Strike Arrivals available to Codex Marines that are not tied to the Start of the Turn?

Interestingly enough, ...On Target still works with Gate of Infinity. There is no stipulation of Deep Strike Reserves.

Deep strike itself is a rule that must be used at the start of the turn, but the unit deep striking isnt on the table at the start of the turn, so can they use deep strike or not?

The deep striking unit is the only one using any rules, the on target rule is used by them not the scouts, hence why the scouts being on the table or not at the start of turn is completely irrelevant.


One could make the argument that the on target rule is completely superfluous because it cannot work at all because the vanguard vets will never ever be on the table at the start of turn, but that's a broken rules argument and obviously not what was intended. That also assumes that its an ability which *must* be used at the start of the turn, rather then may be used when a vet squad arrives from DS

Kriswall wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
The Scouts don't provide the rule to the Veterans... the Formation does.

Not exactly what I said. Without those Scouts, the ability is not available to be used. Mayhaps the phrase should have been "the Scouts provide assess to use the ability".

The Scouts don't provide access to the ability either. I see what you're trying to get at, though. The Formation provides access to the rule. The rule says the Veterans can do thing A and then might also be able to do thing B. The Veterans invoke the rule. The placement of the Veterans, in relation to the position of the Scouts impacts the results of the rule. At no point are the Scouts providing the Veterans with a rule. Also, at no point are the Scouts invoking the rule. The player never says "these Scouts are making use of the '...On Target' rule". The Veterans are subject to '...On Target' even if there aren't any Scouts on the board. The presence of Scouts merely modifies the outcome of the rule for the Veterans.

Not what I said. I did not say "access the rule", I said "access to use the rule". If those specific Scouts are not there, the Vanguard cannot use this aspect of the rule.

In other words:

jokerkd wrote:So ultimately, the question is, is being a condition of using the ability equal to granting the ability

easysauce wrote:Deep strike itself is a rule that must be used at the start of the turn, but the unit deep striking isnt on the table at the start of the turn, so can they use deep strike or not?

The deep striking unit is the only one using any rules, the on target rule is used by them not the scouts, hence why the scouts being on the table or not at the start of turn is completely irrelevant.

Again, when not used with rules like Gate of Infinity or Veil of Darkness, Deep Strike is a form of Moving On From Reserves, which is what this restriction is associated with. It explains this in its own rules.

In cases like Gate of Infinity or Veil of Darkness, though, it is not at the Start of the Turn nor Arriving From or Moving On From Reserves, so unaffected by such restrictions.

 Charistoph wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
The Vets are definitely using the rule in that they are the ones who are not scattering due to the rule.

But the Scouts in the Formation provide that ability for the Vanguard to use. No other unit can. It is in providing that ability that they are forbidden to provide if they Arrived From Reserves in that same Turn.

Really, it is the only thing that could go wrong with the OP's situation. As many have pointed out, it is not an interpretation that many will agree with.

But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

nekooni wrote:
But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

Indeed, but from one perspective, they are using their position and the rule to provide the ability to the Vanguard.

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

Indeed, but from one perspective, they are using their position and the rule to provide the ability to the Vanguard.

Similar to how an assaulted unit provides the charging unit with the ability to charge? Or a unit being shot provides the ability to reroll the to hit when missed? Bad examples, but the idea seems really off

nekooni wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 ArmyC wrote:
The Vets are definitely using the rule in that they are the ones who are not scattering due to the rule.

But the Scouts in the Formation provide that ability for the Vanguard to use. No other unit can. It is in providing that ability that they are forbidden to provide if they Arrived From Reserves in that same Turn.

Really, it is the only thing that could go wrong with the OP's situation. As many have pointed out, it is not an interpretation that many will agree with.

But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

I don't really understand his angle either. It is sloppy rule writing, but what happened is how the rules work in this case.

I believe the intent was that the scouts would actually scout, Veterans would later deep strike nearby. Beer and pretzel.

 General Kroll wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Scouts could just as easily deep strike in Land Speeder Storms, and if I recall correctly it would only cost them 5 points more over the cost of a drop pod.

And five man transport capacity plus the chance to mishap. These were 2 10 man squads in two pods, combat squadding to give the vets several possible DS points to fulfill the distance requirement for avoiding scatter (and reach more potential assault targets ofc). So much better than speeders and cheaper too!

Spetulhu wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:
The Scouts had to steal empty Drop Pods in order to help here - maybe the writer didn't even remember that was possible?

Scouts could just as easily deep strike in Land Speeder Storms, and if I recall correctly it would only cost them 5 points more over the cost of a drop pod.

And five man transport capacity plus the chance to mishap. These were 2 10 man squads in two pods, combat squadding to give the vets several possible DS points to fulfill the distance requirement for avoiding scatter (and reach more potential assault targets ofc). So much better than speeders and cheaper too!

True point. But at a push, it's doable. Plus I love speeder storms!

"I believe the intent was that the scouts would actually scout, Veterans would later deep strike nearby. Beer and pretzel."

This.


The thing is for me that this is a broken combination beyond any broken combination I have ever seen.

Consider: They can reroll deployment, and first turn. They can arrive from reserves first turn on a 4+ which they can ignore. They can arrive without deviation and charge first turn.

It's nuts.

nekooni wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

nekooni wrote:
But the one using the SR are the veterans. And isnt the limitation in the usage of SR ?

Indeed, but from one perspective, they are using their position and the rule to provide the ability to the Vanguard.

Similar to how an assaulted unit provides the charging unit with the ability to charge? Or a unit being shot provides the ability to reroll the to hit when missed? Bad examples, but the idea seems really off

No, closer to Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Leave No Survivors is dependent on Suppressing Fusillade to be able to work. It relies on other units of the Formation actions to do something. In this case, the Formation's Scouts just have to be manuevered to be within 19" of each other.

Your examples just rely on a generic target.

Well, this thread is sort of over. You can no longer put the scouts from this formation in a Drop Pod.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Well, this thread is sort of over. You can no longer put the scouts from this formation in a Drop Pod.

Why not? If it is from the same Faction, no problem. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And this is still a First Draft. Things may change. A lot of responses appeared on this ruling.

Yeah, you can absolutely put Space Marine Faction Scouts into a Space Marine Faction Drop Pod. Based on the DRAFT answers GW just put up, you won't be able to put Space Marine Faction Scouts in a NON Space Marines Faction Drop Pod. So, no Flesh Tearers Detachment to get the lowest tax Drop Pods available.

Sure, but a relatively go around that has worked very well for us locally is to use the following:

Ravenguard Pinion Demi Company. Utilize Scout Bikers with a Locator Beacon. They have Infiltrate and Scout. They start on the board and can jink to get a 2+ cover save as they are Shrouded on turn 1.

Vanguard Vets from the Formation come down with zero scatter and assault turn 1. It has worked several times for us locally.

Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And yet the Allies Matrix shows the same Faction as being Battle Brothers instead of leaving the space blank as they did last edition

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And yet the Allies Matrix shows the same Faction as being Battle Brothers instead of leaving the space blank as they did last edition

Supplements, man, Supplements.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And yet the Allies Matrix shows the same Faction as being Battle Brothers instead of leaving the space blank as they did last edition

Supplements, man, Supplements.

Supplements don't change Factions though.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Separate detachments are allies. You can be allied with your own faction, as battle brothers, it's on the chart.

If it is from the same Faction, you do not address the Matrix. "The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

And yet the Allies Matrix shows the same Faction as being Battle Brothers instead of leaving the space blank as they did last edition

Supplements, man, Supplements.

Supplements don't change Factions though.

But a different book and some are allowed to be considered Allies.

There was a ruling in the Tau FAQ today that might be relevant to this conversation:

Q: The rules for Tau homing beacons don't say that the model has to be on the table for one turn before it takes effect. Does this mean the benefits can be used in the same turn it arrives from Reserves?

A: Yes, if the model bearing the homing become moves onto the battlefield from reserves before the unit you intend to benefit from it: Note that the model must disembark from any Transport it might be on if you want to use the homing beacon.

Not hugely - having to be on the table to use "aura" abilities that dont specifically state they work while embarked is in the main FAQ, and TAU Homing Beacons DONT have the same stipulation as SM ones.

Slightly on this topic, I used the Shadowstrike kill team yesterday, and completely forgot about the ability with the scouts! And they dropped down within 9 inches of two scout squads, And they scattered, And they mishapped!

(The scouts had been on since turn one however, and the vets didn't drop till turn two)

Luckily for me, they eventually came down turn three and munched through some stuff.

Or just use Scout Bikers with locator beacons 2+ Jinx first turn and have a podding command squad with banner for +1 attack to all units within 12" with ignore cover relentless gravguns. Have the 2 mandatory scout squads for the STK be snipers in your deployment zone and stay within a 9" perimeter for no scatter incase of seize or counter to a alpha strike.

The question is do drop pods come in before the deep striking Vanguard or simultaneously, or is it the controlling players choice?

Has nothing to do with the Vanguard charging as they can straight out of deepstrike and codex always over rules BRB.

Valentine009 wrote:
There was a ruling in the Tau FAQ today that might be relevant to this conversation:

Q: The rules for Tau homing beacons don't say that the model has to be on the table for one turn before it takes effect. Does this mean the benefits can be used in the same turn it arrives from Reserves?

A: Yes, if the model bearing the homing become moves onto the battlefield from reserves before the unit you intend to benefit from it: Note that the model must disembark from any Transport it might be on if you want to use the homing beacon.

Also similar answer with Blood angels FAQ regarding their specific formation.

I'm late to the party but I don't see how the OP works. Aren't the drop pods are using rules from another formation? Plus can't only one come in 1st turn?

Plus the scouts are using a special rule from the formation - which scouts could only utilize if they infiltrated or had arrived a turn earlier....at least that's how I am reading the rules. Any clarification wold be great, thanks!

 Spacewolverine wrote:
The question is do drop pods come in before the deep striking Vanguard or simultaneously, or is it the controlling players choice?

This falls under Sequencing, so the Player whose turn it is (so usually Controlling Player).

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
I'm late to the party but I don't see how the OP works. Aren't the drop pods are using rules from another formation? Plus can't only one come in 1st turn?

Plus the scouts are using a special rule from the formation - which scouts could only utilize if they infiltrated or had arrived a turn earlier....at least that's how I am reading the rules. Any clarification wold be great, thanks!

He had 3 pods total, so 2 could come in turn 1. So he deep struck the scouts in the pods then the Vanguard deep struck within 9".

 Sautek Supreme wrote:
I'm late to the party but I don't see how the OP works. Aren't the drop pods are using rules from another formation? Plus can't only one come in 1st turn?

Plus the scouts are using a special rule from the formation - which scouts could only utilize if they infiltrated or had arrived a turn earlier....at least that's how I am reading the rules. Any clarification wold be great, thanks!

The scouts didn't need to be there a turn earlier. The only real problem is whether or not you can put Scouts from one formation into a different detachment's Drop Pod. I'm in the "you can't" camp, but it's still up for debate.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The scouts didn't need to be there a turn earlier.

Actually, they do. Any rules and abilities which are used at the start of the turn cannot be used when Arriving From Reserves.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The only real problem is whether or not you can put Scouts from one formation into a different detachment's Drop Pod. I'm in the "you can't" camp, but it's still up for debate.

They can if they are the same Faction and the Drop Pod is not Dedicated. Allies rules only concern themselves with Factions, not Detachments. Different Chapter Tactics do not matter in this case, either, since if they have different Chapter Tactics, they are in the same Faction (currently) and they are not joined to each other.

 Charistoph wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The scouts didn't need to be there a turn earlier.

Actually, they do. Any rules and abilities which are used at the start of the turn cannot be used when Arriving From Reserves.
.

The thing is GW FAQ does allow it unless the rule wording says "the unit must be in the table before" thus the FAQ ruling with units arriving turn 1 ( 1st scouts or units with locator beacons) and then allowing further units arriving the same turn to not scatter or be able to charge if their formation rules grant that.

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The scouts didn't need to be there a turn earlier.

Actually, they do. Any rules and abilities which are used at the start of the turn cannot be used when Arriving From Reserves.
.

The thing is GW FAQ does allow it unless the rule wording says "the unit must be in the table before" thus the FAQ ruling with units arriving turn 1 ( 1st scouts or units with locator beacons) and then allowing further units arriving the same turn to not scatter or be able to charge if their formation rules grant that.

The thing is that the rulebook does not allow it unless the rule is worded to allow it to work when Arriving From Reserves. It was implemented in 6th Edition, and did not change for 7th Edition.

 Charistoph wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
The scouts didn't need to be there a turn earlier.

Actually, they do. Any rules and abilities which are used at the start of the turn cannot be used when Arriving From Reserves.
.

The thing is GW FAQ does allow it unless the rule wording says "the unit must be in the table before" thus the FAQ ruling with units arriving turn 1 ( 1st scouts or units with locator beacons) and then allowing further units arriving the same turn to not scatter or be able to charge if their formation rules grant that.

The thing is that the rulebook does not allow it unless the rule is worded to allow it to work when Arriving From Reserves. It was implemented in 6th Edition, and did not change for 7th Edition.

Oh i see

so
Tau FAQ and this
Blood Angel FAQ paired with this Spearhead formation
wich is totally allowed according to rules is fine

Now the wording rule we are discussing wich is here shadowstrike kill team
Does not?

Sory but the TAU and Blood Angels FAQ allow to use such abilities as long THERE is no further requirement in the rule. Yet you argue the Shadowstrike one (wich is worded exactly the same way) is not?

Lord Perversor wrote:
Oh i see

so
Tau FAQ and this
Blood Angel FAQ paired with this Spearhead formation
wich is totally allowed according to rules is fine

Now the wording rule we are discussing wich is here shadowstrike kill team
Does not?

Sory but the TAU and Blood Angels FAQ allow to use such abilities as long THERE is no further requirement in the rule. Yet you argue the Shadowstrike one (wich is worded exactly the same way) is not?

1. It's a Draft, not live.
2. Plenty of the Draft FAQ Answers either ignore or directly counter the written word of the book. Battle Brothers and Transports in Deployment, for example?

OP; how did your buddy get the scouts in drop pods to begin with?

Also did your budy have 2x with a possible -1 drop pods(if there were an odd number of pods to begin with) in order for those scouts units to all come in first turn?

the actual benefits of the formation should be tricky to pull off normally; adding in the scenario you describe should come down to impossible without several CADs getting involved.

 Charistoph wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:
Oh i see

so
Tau FAQ and this
Blood Angel FAQ paired with this Spearhead formation
wich is totally allowed according to rules is fine

Now the wording rule we are discussing wich is here shadowstrike kill team
Does not?

Sory but the TAU and Blood Angels FAQ allow to use such abilities as long THERE is no further requirement in the rule. Yet you argue the Shadowstrike one (wich is worded exactly the same way) is not?

1. It's a Draft, not live.
2. Plenty of the Draft FAQ Answers either ignore or directly counter the written word of the book. Battle Brothers and Transports in Deployment, for example?

Check Swarmlord special rule, check also Chapter Tactics rules, both state at the beginning of turn, and thus would work and be restricted much like you claim (any unit coming of reserves cannot benefit for those rules in the turn they arrive) but the one of Shadowstrike does not, it's just your personal interpretation linking it to the rule you mention.

I think while it is a draft they very clearly said that the answers are not likely to change, only that the wording will be changed to clear up any ambiguities.

 Leth wrote:
I think while it is a draft they very clearly said that the answers are not likely to change, only that the wording will be changed to clear up any ambiguities.

When they have waited a while to do FAQs and release them after a while, it is not unheard of for them to reverse the answer in a following FAQ when feedback questions where they were headed or pointed out that it ran counter to what the book said (and they didn't choose to errata the book). It is not terribly common, but it is not impossible, either.