I've read the BA codex a few times, and from what I've seen there is nothing really new compared to the vanilla marine dex. You've got sanguinary guard, death co. dread and troops, lib dread, sanguinary priest and furioso. Not counting special characters.

Now before you start beating me over the head that I'm evil for suggesting that someones models become obsolete, but hear me out.

The BA codex doesn't have much going for it, it has their angry dreads etc. But I don't see how this couldn't be replicated in the vanilla dex by just giving them special rules for being BA or just throwing them in the dumpster. The Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, arguably the most memorable units, and dante would stay in there as HQ choices and elite choices, think what happened to Black Templars.

This would boost the BA's power level and make them simpler. (The less books the better, look at cult mech and skitarii) They'd get centurions, stormtalons, etc. etc.

But what about the other marine dexes, I hear you say!

Space Wolves are vastly different, I'd die if I saw a grey hunter not holding a chainsword (i.e. wulfen, ccw options, T cav, different tactics) Grey Knights aren't even in the same postal code with brotherhood of psykers, dark angels could arguably be in the same boat actually, just give them skilled rider or something.

Dakka's input?

BTW, this is very much a fledgling idea, I just came up with it and though I'd throw it up on the boards

Don't care. Won't happen, but would be fine.

I could agree with this. Most of the Marine factions (barring the extreme outliers like Grey Knights and Space Wolves) could (and should imo) be folded into the Marine codex.

And sell LESS BOOKS?

Common sense would dictate that this should happen, but as vector pointed out

 Vector Strike wrote:
And sell LESS BOOKS?

It will never happen because Money

I honestly think that would make them sell more books, as all those BA and DA players would have to buy the updated book.

As you said, they won't do that, common sense seems to be few and far between at gee-dubs

Would it not sell more centurions, stormtalon, and other exclusive SM kits? Wouldn't that make up for the book? Or hell, keep it as a supplement and sell books and models!

So what makes them BA if you dump their unique units? I mean heck, while you're at it, ditch TWC and Wulfen and assimilate the SW dex. Give tac marines the option to take chainswords and boom, grey hunters.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
So what makes them BA if you dump their unique units? I mean heck, while you're at it, ditch TWC and Wulfen and assimilate the SW dex. Give tac marines the option to take chainswords and Bo grey hunters.

TWC and Wulfen are vastly different than angry marines though. Also, read the bit in my post where I said we'd keep some of their more memorable units.

Personally, I'm all for the BA getting rolled into the vanilla codex, if nothing else, than so that my local shop's resident BA players can shut the feth up about how few attacks their dreads have compared to mine (conversely, it can be fun to rile them up by saying slightly loudly how many CC attacks your dreadnought is making so they hear)


I do disagree with the DA being rolled up though. The fluff, and way they play, as far as Deathwing and Ravenwing, IMHO warrant them remaining a unique book.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Personally, I'm all for the BA getting rolled into the vanilla codex, if nothing else, than so that my local shop's resident BA players can shut the feth up about how few attacks their dreads have compared to mine (conversely, it can be fun to rile them up by saying slightly loudly how many CC attacks your dreadnought is making so they hear)


I do disagree with the DA being rolled up though. The fluff, and way they play, as far as Deathwing and Ravenwing, IMHO warrant them remaining a unique book.

What makes them so unique though? Everyone has terminators and bikes. They're just better at it, hence some special rules to reflect that.

This would significantly bloat the SM codex, but it already is with how many supplements and god knows what else GW has pumped into it.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Personally, I'm all for the BA getting rolled into the vanilla codex, if nothing else, than so that my local shop's resident BA players can shut the feth up about how few attacks their dreads have compared to mine (conversely, it can be fun to rile them up by saying slightly loudly how many CC attacks your dreadnought is making so they hear)


I do disagree with the DA being rolled up though. The fluff, and way they play, as far as Deathwing and Ravenwing, IMHO warrant them remaining a unique book.

What makes them so unique though? Everyone has terminators and bikes. They're just better at it, hence some special rules to reflect that.

This would significantly bloat the SM codex, but it already is with how many supplements and god knows what else GW has pumped into it.

The Marine codex is already bloated, so as you said, a few more pages of rules/fluff won't make things much worse

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

What makes them so unique though? Everyone has terminators and bikes. They're just better at it, hence some special rules to reflect that.

This would significantly bloat the SM codex, but it already is with how many supplements and god knows what else GW has pumped into it.

Not everyone''s first company fights the way the DW does.... Also, AFAIK, not even the White Scars have a company of literally nothing but bikes, as the Dark Angels do.

Imo, this also comes down to a balance thing... I can't recall whether DAs get access to grav weapons, but rolling the ability to take a clone "ravenwing" army out of the standard book with an HQ like Khan, would definitely frustrate or infuriate a number of people who already say that Marines are "OP" and that grav is "OP"... Keeping them a separate book continues to keep that balance.

Last time I checked they had grav. Cannons at least I know for sure.

And the whole fluff thing of having a full company of bikes doesn't really effect the models on the table.

BA's are ostensibly a Codex adherent chapter. For years most of their stuff was just weapon-swaps on normal units (Baal pred, Furioso) or extra-angry Tac marines (Death Company). GW added some additional ridiculous stuff just to justify their existence as a separate book, but really not all that much. They could be folded into the normal Vanilla codex with a couple pages of extra rules and lose nothing meaningful (i.e. nothing they might not lose or see changed with a new codex of their own in a new edition). Same goes for DA's.

Frankly (and as a player with a bunch of different marine armies) I would be more than happy to see all of the marine variants rolled into a single book with something akin to the 4th edition Chapter Traits system.

DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

Tbf though most of those DA units literally didn't exist fluff- and crunch-wise until 6th edition.

It'd be a shame to lose them, sure, but most of them (like centurions really) shouldn't have even be made to exist in the first place.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

Most of which are relatively minor variants on existing units, and many of which haven't existed for the overwhelmingly vast majority of the DA's existence. The Interrogator Chaplain for instance is just one of those things that seems distinct because of a quirk of codex edition, vanilla SM's used to have a very similar "big" Chaplain option.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

There's no particular reason that any or all of those couldn't be rolled into the Space Marine codex as unit upgrades to the generic units they are derived from.

text removed.

Reds8n

 insaniak wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

There's no particular reason that any or all of those couldn't be rolled into the Space Marine codex as unit upgrades to the generic units they are derived from.

Other than it adds flavour for them to be unique and to reduce all the unique chapters to being upgrades in the core codex would make it a bit of a mess IMO.

I think the Space Marine chapters should stay separate. If they were never broken off in the first place, then sure I'd say keep them in the main codex, but since they are already separate I think they should stay that way.

Ideally I'd like to see all Marine chapters updated within a few months of each other so they stay consistent with each other, but that's probably never going to happen.

Marines are one of GW's big sellers, so I'm sure they like having Space Marine releases as piecemeal as possible.

There's no reason to keep Blood Angels and Dark Angels out of generic Space Marines anymore.

Space Marines just get everything they do anyway, while they twist away with lack of support.

There's no advantage to keeping those two out.

Space Wolves can maintain their snowflake status.

I say get rid of all the snowflake chapters, while they're at it take renegades out of CSM and put them in C:SM where they belong.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Would it not sell more centurions, stormtalon, and other exclusive SM kits? Wouldn't that make up for the book? Or hell, keep it as a supplement and sell books and models!

Is that though good idea? If DA/BA gets access to every toy from normal codex and other marines don't get theirs the BA/DA will start to look like marines+1...

Well, BA and DA have an outstanding history different from the vanilla chapters. It would not be wise to subsume them into the vanilla codex. But game-wise GW should take more care of their codices.

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Would it not sell more centurions, stormtalon, and other exclusive SM kits? Wouldn't that make up for the book? Or hell, keep it as a supplement and sell books and models!

Is that though good idea? If DA/BA gets access to every toy from normal codex and other marines don't get theirs the BA/DA will start to look like marines+1...

To be brutally honest, it would be nice to be on the giving, not the receiving end for longer than 7 months out of a fething decade. Before I quit BA I was spending so much money on lube I could only eat 3 times a week. Seriously, last time BA were above average was before some dakka members were BORN. So long as they aren't Un the same league as Tau and Eldar I'd be a very happy camper.


I seriously got reported for suggesting Ensis Ferre not be a spanker to other players at his LGS? Alright, how's this? Try not being a spanker on the forums at least if you can't handle it IRL.

But if they were rolled into the SM codex, i wouldnt be able to create my all walker (minus drop pods) list D;

You guys want to give DA Storm Ravens and Centurions, among other things, I'm all for it

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Other than it adds flavour for them to be unique and to reduce all the unique chapters to being upgrades in the core codex would make it a bit of a mess IMO.

It adds 'flavour' in the wrong way, though... There's no particularly good reason for a mark of tank or aircraft to be unique to one specific Chapter. Certainly some Chapters might use more, or make better use of them... but that's better reflected through Chapter-specific rules, rather than only allowing, say, Black Templars to use Land Raider Crusaders...

Ideally I'd like to see all Marine chapters updated within a few months of each other so they stay consistent with each other, but that's probably never going to happen..

Indeed. Which is exactly why having them in one book is such an attractive idea. It immediately eliminates the issues we see with, for example, some Chapters dreadnoughts having more attacks than others for no discernible reason, or some Chapters being able to cram more guys into a drop pod than others, or only certain Chapters having access to options that have suddenly been a mainstay of the Astartes battleline for centuries...

It won't happen - it should but it wont.

The snowflake Chapters have now had a few years of making up sillier and sillier "flavour" units - especially the Wolves - I love my Wolves but hate with a passion the mcWolfy Wolf on a wolf sleigh crap that's now shovelled out - same with my Dark Angels and Blood Angels.

There are many other Chapters that should get unique units but don't: Including various First Founding Chapters that get SFA

Any specialist Sniper units for Raven Guard? Nope...... Any special Salamanders Terminator Units? Nope.

Many people have advocated for years that all the Marines could be in one or maybe two books.

But Marines sell and ever so slightly different Marines also sell - It might mean that other forces don't get a chance to be tried out - the variety with the Imperial Guard is vastly more than the Astartes in terms of equipment, doctrine and appearance.

TWC and Wulfen are vastly different than angry marines though.

Actually a generic cavalry option would be fine - it would allow for other chapters who use similar Beasts.
Terminator Squads just become mix and match, give a few more weapon options.
CCW option for all Marines at pts cost.
Have a few Elite options to represent special units and a few more - like say the non Scout Snipers.

Blood Angels and Dark Angels both could fit very easily into Codex: Space Marines

To do so you just have to follow a few simple rules:
Summer down the basic army Special Rules into something befitting a Chapter Tactics entry.

Some Army special rules become Unit Entry only for things like Black Rage, red thirst etc.

For Army Unique units, handle them the same way as Black Templar Crusader Squads are, only takeable in a detachment with BT Chapter Tactics, or make them more strict.
Example: Ravenwing Black Knights, these units may only be chosen as part of a detachment using Dark Angels Chapter Tactics or if you want it more strict certain specialist units can't be taken without a named HQ from that Army.

This way you can keep army specific units with their respective chapters and not have a gigantic Cluster feth.

And this would still with the new FAQ clarification still prevent Chapter Merging Superfriends lists, while giving a significant boost to both Blood Angels and Dark Angels armies gaining access to some of the needed models like Flyers and Centurions, as well as the contemptor and Cataphractii units. (Come on Death Company Assault Centurions would be awesome.) And access to "Angels of Death".

As far as Space Wolves go, much like Grey Knights I believe they do warrant their own Dex because of how fundamentally different they are from standard "Codex compliant" chapters.


Will it happen? I don't know I can't see the Future, but I wish it would.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
DA have grav weapons, but no access to Centurions, which is stupid. DA have more unique models and characters than you might realize, which I think warrants their own dex:

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim Jetfighters
Land Speeder Vengeance
Darkshroud
Deathwing Knights
Interrogator-Chaplain
Sammael
Ezekiel
Belial

Ok. And prior to the 6th edition Codex...

Black Knights
Dark Talons
Nephilim
LSVs
Darkshrouds
Deathwing Knights

...didn't exist, even in the fluff.

The Interrogator Chaplain is arguably just a Chaplain variant.
And special characters sort of don't count for determinining unique units because by default they are unique, even for the Captain Generic Ultramarines.

You literally have a single codex where those all appeared. That is it.

Surely the simple solution which would still allow GW to sell a variety of books, would be to have a basic SM codex, like we do now, and then have supplements for each first founding chapter and their successors. Like the Ravenguard and Whitescar stuff in Kauyon, and the other stuff in Angels Of a Death.

That way, everyone gets access to all the basic space marine units: Tac Squads, Centurions, Stormhawk/talon/raven.

Then you have a supplement for Blood Angels with all their Baal preds, Death Companies etc. And Space Wolves with their TWC etc.

You could even make it so that the decurions for each sub faction exclude certain standard units in favour of their chapter specific ones. Eg Grey Hunters subsume Tactical Squads in the SW decurion and so on. Dark Talons subsume Stormhawks etc.

I think it's a moot discussion either way, I've a feeling we are going to see the codex system completely changed in 8th edition with a move towards an AoS style online free rules with campaign books for added flavour.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Ok. And prior to the 6th edition Codex....

And that's 3 and a half years ago now.

That;s why I said on the previous page "If they were never broken off in the first place, then sure I'd say keep them in the main codex, but since they are already separate I think they should stay that way."

It's a big feth you to customers who might have started in that period to start hacking away at their armies to shove them in to a single book.

Gooble, gobble, one of us!

IMO, they should roll the generic units into a big book and then have supplements for each chapter's specific warlord traits, relics, etc.

Sanguinary guard could be an honor guard with wings, Librarian Dreads could be a simple HQ choice for any marine army, Baals upgrades could get rolled into Predators and the vehicle upgrades get the same into the Marine armoury, while Death Company remains their unique unit like crusader squads.

DA is a bit trickier, since they diverge a lot more than BA, and have a lot more unique things, considering they have their own flavours of bikes, terminators, and planes. I don't know if giving Terminators power mauls that are s6 ap3 and get +2s and -1 AP on the charge is quite the same as smite, and should any termie with a SS get +1 T if they are near another?

If they only got to keep one unit to themselves, which one would make the most sense being generic? The bikes with plasma guns or the terminators with special mauls?

 insaniak wrote:

Ideally I'd like to see all Marine chapters updated within a few months of each other so they stay consistent with each other, but that's probably never going to happen..

Indeed. Which is exactly why having them in one book is such an attractive idea.

Yeah, but the reason GW aren't going to release all the Marine codices within a short period to keep them consistent is the same reason they aren't going to roll them all in to one. It makes more sense for them financially to keep them separate and spread out the releases.

 War Kitten wrote:
I could agree with this. Most of the Marine factions (barring the extreme outliers like Grey Knights and Space Wolves) could (and should imo) be folded into the Marine codex.

I'd actually prefer more of them to be separated out and given their own identities.

And this goes for all armies, not just Marines.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I could agree with this. Most of the Marine factions (barring the extreme outliers like Grey Knights and Space Wolves) could (and should imo) be folded into the Marine codex.

I'd actually prefer more of them to be separated out and given their own identities.

And this goes for all armies, not just Marines.

The number of codecies would be bewildering if you split up all the different factions within an army. Sisters of Battle would get six!

tneva82 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Would it not sell more centurions, stormtalon, and other exclusive SM kits? Wouldn't that make up for the book? Or hell, keep it as a supplement and sell books and models!

Is that though good idea? If DA/BA gets access to every toy from normal codex and other marines don't get theirs the BA/DA will start to look like marines+1...

Are Black Templars marines+1 because of their Emperor's Champion, Helbrecht, and Sword Brethren?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

TWC and Wulfen are vastly different than angry marines though.

Actually a generic cavalry option would be fine - it would allow for other chapters who use similar Beasts.
Terminator Squads just become mix and match, give a few more weapon options.
CCW option for all Marines at pts cost.
Have a few Elite options to represent special units and a few more - like say the non Scout Snipers.

Really? Everyone gets a cavalry option? Not only would that be arguably OP if they were equivalent with TWC, it'd butcher fluff. I could however see assault bikes instead with 2 wounds and t 5 if they wanted to make up for it.

Couldn't care less. Either roll everyone in, or leave them as their own codices.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I could agree with this. Most of the Marine factions (barring the extreme outliers like Grey Knights and Space Wolves) could (and should imo) be folded into the Marine codex.

I'd actually prefer more of them to be separated out and given their own identities.

And this goes for all armies, not just Marines.

The number of codecies would be bewildering if you split up all the different factions within an army. Sisters of Battle would get six!

No, they wouldn't.
Sisters of Battle would at best be 2. One for the Sororitas themselves and one for the Ecclesiarchal components that accompany them into battle or function as standalone forces. Additionally, not every army really can be split off based along something as simple as faction lines.

To throw my own wishlist/ideas out there
Codex: Cadian Shock Troops
No Commissars, no Scions, no Ratlings, no Rough Riders, no Taurox.
Scions are replaced by Kasrkin Platoons; same general statline but no Deep Strike or Infiltrate option. "Inspiring Presence" rule that grants models with the Cadian faction immunity to morale checks while within range of a Kasrkin squad.
Ratlings are replaced by Cadian Sniper Teams; 2 models per team and they operate as separate units despite being bought together. Normal sniper rifles or a more powerful version designed for killing MCs/GMCs/lone heroes.
Rough Riders are replaced by Salamander Scout/Command vehicles.
Taurox are just removed from the list, period.
Cadian Shock Troops get the option to purchase Rapier weapon platforms as part of the squad instead of the normal Heavy Weapon Team.
Cadian models with "Voice of Command" get the ability to purchase an upgrade that grants them the Summary Execution ability.


Codex: Imperium's Shadows
Raven Guard and their Successors/similar Chapters
Formations and Doctrines associated with the different "ways of war" that the Chapter and its Successor practices
"Decapitating Strike" doctrine and formations would emphasize fast-moving/deep striking assault elements with a specific target and very little shooting.
"Baited Strike" doctrine and formations would emphasize infiltration and shooting, with precision assault elements that have to start off board.

If they went towards smaller/split out codices with more specific focus, fluff, etc and then also had a cheap "Adeptus Astartes" or "Astra Militarum" book combining the various bits and bobs with no fluff like they've done in AoS with the Grand Alliance books?

I'd absolutely be on board with it.

As long as we kept access to some our stuff exclusively the way Black Templars did, I would be okay with it. We would gain a lot more than we would lose. Isn't there a variation of the Predator that is basically the same thing as the Baal Predator without Overcharged Engines? So make Overcharged Engines standard on BA tanks and make the Baal Predator available to everyone. Hard to say what to do with the Dreadnoughts. Sanguinary Guard and Death Company would be exclusive. Make ano HQ Chief Apothecary and have the Sanguinary Priest count as one. Boom. Done.

 War Kitten wrote:
I could agree with this. Most of the Marine factions (barring the extreme outliers like Grey Knights and Space Wolves) could (and should imo) be folded into the Marine codex.

Yes. Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels can join all of the marines in one book. Put out a supplement for some additional warlord traits, special characters, and other bull gak.

That lets all Marines "Keep up with the Jones" in terms of wargear and new tanks and gak.

That also lets special snow flakes still feel like a natural woman.

Boom goes the promethium.

Really? Everyone gets a cavalry option? Not only would that be arguably OP if they were equivalent with TWC, it'd butcher fluff. I could however see assault bikes instead with 2 wounds and t 5 if they wanted to make up for it.

Depends - if they were actually pointed correctly (shock) they would be fine if as you say to have assault bike/cavalry.

The fluff is butchered anyway with regards to Marines - Vanilla and Flavoured looking hard at Centurions and ."flavour units" plus the explosion of SM flyers.

If GW did a good job balancing the unique flavor of factions, I would be more open to separating out factions more finely. As it is, many people just bandwagon their marines through whatever the best variation is at any given time.

I also think there's a lot of false diversity in the Marine codexes. You could come up with an excuse for any chapter to have some unique offering to it (and every time a new chapter gets some attention they always do). I'd hate to see further flanderization simply to perpetuate the unique snowflake concepts of these chapters.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Really? Everyone gets a cavalry option? Not only would that be arguably OP if they were equivalent with TWC, it'd butcher fluff. I could however see assault bikes instead with 2 wounds and t 5 if they wanted to make up for it.

Depends - if they were actually pointed correctly (shock) they would be fine if as you say to have assault bike/cavalry.

The fluff is butchered anyway with regards to Marines - Vanilla and Flavoured looking hard at Centurions and ."flavour units" plus the explosion of SM flyers.

Oh please.

We're talking about a setting where lost technology is found almost every day and immediately put back into production if it was for the Astartes. It's been that way for how long?

 Accolade wrote:
If GW did a good job balancing the unique flavor of factions, I would be more open to separating out factions more finely. As it is, many people just bandwagon their marines through whatever the best variation is at any given time.

I also think there's a lot of false diversity in the Marine codexes. You could come up with an excuse for any chapter to have some unique offering to it (and every time a new chapter gets some attention they always do). I'd hate to see further flanderization simply to perpetuate the unique snowflake concepts of these chapters.

What are you talking about?! Dog Wolfborn, riding his thunderwolf, with his wolfkin, and with dual wolf claws is my favourite Space Wolf! Yes, I agree.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Really? Everyone gets a cavalry option? Not only would that be arguably OP if they were equivalent with TWC, it'd butcher fluff. I could however see assault bikes instead with 2 wounds and t 5 if they wanted to make up for it.

Depends - if they were actually pointed correctly (shock) they would be fine if as you say to have assault bike/cavalry.

The fluff is butchered anyway with regards to Marines - Vanilla and Flavoured looking hard at Centurions and ."flavour units" plus the explosion of SM flyers.

Oh please.

We're talking about a setting where lost technology is found almost every day and immediately put back into production if it was for the Astartes. It's been that way for how long?

er never.

Most "new" SM vehicles were a result of wrangles with the Adeptus Mechanicus and took quite some time to appear following the actual discovery.

Sadly GW decided that rather than bring out a series of "fluff" units for many and varied Chapters they would just keep hammering away at the same old Chapters and make sillier and sillier flavoured units like Wolfs on a wolf sleigh being pulled by.......guess what Wolves,

Father Christmas Grimnar is the dumbest thing in any codex.

I feel that both Blood Angels and Dark Angels are easily assimilated into the vanilla codex. Space Wolves and Grey Knights are too unique, but the formers aren't.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Father Christmas Grimnar is the dumbest thing in any codex.

320 points of jolly christmas spirit! Hohoho!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Really? Everyone gets a cavalry option? Not only would that be arguably OP if they were equivalent with TWC, it'd butcher fluff. I could however see assault bikes instead with 2 wounds and t 5 if they wanted to make up for it.

Depends - if they were actually pointed correctly (shock) they would be fine if as you say to have assault bike/cavalry.

The fluff is butchered anyway with regards to Marines - Vanilla and Flavoured looking hard at Centurions and ."flavour units" plus the explosion of SM flyers.

Oh please.

We're talking about a setting where lost technology is found almost every day and immediately put back into production if it was for the Astartes. It's been that way for how long?

And it's not all SM who butchered the fluff. What about Eldorath and the rest of the Eldar, who can see everything happening forever and ever because reasons? Oh you were gonna stab me? Knew it.

There's a part of me that always wanted to make BA army or SW army. I plan to do it when I can set the time and money aside. BA have cool fluff and are unique enough to have their own book like SW and DA and GK.,

All they need is a better codex inline with Spacewolves. Not saying they need Black Rage / Red Thirst Vampire Magic super units like Wulfen, but maybe????

Should everyone in the army have access to Jump Packs, including unique HQ's? Yes.
Should BA Artificer armor provide a 6++ like SW Runic armor? Yes.
Should BA Lightning Claws be called Blood Talons, like dreads, give +1 Str - like wolf claws? Yes.
Should all BA with Jump packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath? Yes!
Should BA have access to Centurions? NO!
Should BA have access to Grav Cannons? NO!
Should BA be given a new weapon like SW did with Helfrost? YES! - How BA get a marine version of Death Spinners - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.

Should Libby Dreads be better or taken in a conclave? Yes.
Wouldn't it make more sense that Sanguinary priests be treated like Lone Wolves and have no Force Org Slot - allowing them to be taken as one per Troop/Fast/Elite unit taken. Or allow a SPriest to be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a sargent upgrade - FNP for all! YES!
Should the Sanguinor be an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW - at his current price? YES!
Should the Techmarine HQ to take a TFC? YES!
Should Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price? Yes!

Does the army need a Command Squad, Sternguard Squad and Vanguard Veteran Squad? NO! Should those units be folded into 1 Elite squad that can pick and choose weapons and get some bonuses - Like wolf Guard? YES!
Do they need both types of Terminator Squads listed? No - Just give them Blood Terminators that can pick and choose weapons - Like wolf Guard terminators? Yes!
Should they get Cataphractii Terminators? Yes!
Should they get Super Vampires? Maybe! - or maybe buffs below to DC and Sanguinary Guard are enough coupled with the BA Jump pack buffs and ability to take a SPriest with any squad.
Do their Dreads need a point decrease and more attacks? Yes.
Do Furiosos and DC dreads need more distinctive abilities? Yes.
Should Lemartes be able to be taken as part of a DC upgrade, unit like Lukas the Trickster is for Blood Claws? Yes of course.
Should Sangiunary Guard's death masks give them a 4++ but cost 10ppm? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard's Axe give +3 Str AP2 and sword give +1Str Ap3 w/ Rending? Yes!
Should Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard be T5s? YES! - These effectively become TWC for BA
Should Death Company get Jump Packs for free? Yes!
Should Death Company get that Wulfen ability for 1 last strike the turn they die? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Storm Shields? Yes!
Should Death Company be T5? Yes! - These effectively become TWC for BA - albeit a different flavour

Should BA Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields? Yes
Should BA get Stormtalons and Stormhawks? YES!

That about does it. I made their codex competitive again. Bask in the glory. I want to buy this now

I say Dark Angels should be assimilated too. Back when the other 6 chapters literally used the same set of rules all the time there was at least a tangible reason for BA and DAs to get their own dex. Now that everyone has their own special rules and formations, there's not that much reason left to not assimilate them.

It'd also cut down on codex creep since one chapter won't be left out in the rain just because an update didn't come along.

The only two SM chapters that I think should be exempt are Space Wolves and Grey Knights, largely because of how different their organization is to vanilla marines.

Naaris wrote:
There's a part of me that always wanted to make BA army or SW army. I plan to do it when I can set the time and money aside. BA have cool fluff and are unique enough to have their own book like SW and DA and GK.,

All they need is a better codex inline with Spacewolves. Not saying they need Black Rage / Red Thirst Vampire Magic super units like Wulfen, but maybe????

Should everyone in the army have access to Jump Packs, including unique HQ's? Yes.
Should BA Artificer armor provide a 6++ like SW Runic armor? Yes.
Should BA Lightning Claws be called Blood Talons, like dreads, give +1 Str - like wolf claws? Yes.
Should all BA with Jump packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath? Yes!
Should BA have access to Centurions? NO!
Should BA have access to Grav Cannons? NO!
Should BA be given a new weapon like SW did with Helfrost? YES! - How BA get a marine version of Death Spinners - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.

Should Libby Dreads be better or taken in a conclave? Yes.
Wouldn't it make more sense that Sanguinary priests be treated like Lone Wolves and have no Force Org Slot - allowing them to be taken as one per Troop/Fast/Elite unit taken. Or allow a SPriest to be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a sargent upgrade - FNP for all! YES!
Should the Sanguinor be an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW - at his current price? YES!
Should the Techmarine HQ to take a TFC? YES!
Should Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price? Yes!

Does the army need a Command Squad, Sternguard Squad and Vanguard Veteran Squad? NO! Should those units be folded into 1 Elite squad that can pick and choose weapons and get some bonuses - Like wolf Guard? YES!
Do they need both types of Terminator Squads listed? No - Just give them Blood Terminators that can pick and choose weapons - Like wolf Guard terminators? Yes!
Should they get Cataphractii Terminators? Yes!
Should they get Super Vampires? Maybe! - or maybe buffs below to DC and Sanguinary Guard are enough coupled with the BA Jump pack buffs and ability to take a SPriest with any squad.
Do their Dreads need a point decrease and more attacks? Yes.
Do Furiosos and DC dreads need more distinctive abilities? Yes.
Should Lemartes be able to be taken as part of a DC upgrade, unit like Lukas the Trickster is for Blood Claws? Yes of course.
Should Sangiunary Guard's death masks give them a 4++ but cost 10ppm? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard's Axe give +3 Str AP2 and sword give +1Str Ap3 w/ Rending? Yes!
Should Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard be T5s? YES! - These effectively become TWC for BA
Should Death Company get Jump Packs for free? Yes!
Should Death Company get that Wulfen ability for 1 last strike the turn they die? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Storm Shields? Yes!
Should Death Company be T5? Yes! - These effectively become TWC for BA - albeit a different flavour

Should BA Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields? Yes
Should BA get Stormtalons and Stormhawks? YES!

That about does it. I made their codex competitive again. Bask in the glory. I want to buy this now

I like most of this stuff, but can meqs function against Tau/Eldar without grav cannons? That's a legitimate question. Without a Wolfstar or Wulfenstar, and no grav cannons, these improvements seem rather hollow. The Riptide and WK still stomp all over us.

Naaris wrote:
There's a part of me that always wanted to make BA army or SW army. I plan to do it when I can set the time and money aside. BA have cool fluff and are unique enough to have their own book like SW and DA and GK.,

All they need is a better codex inline with Spacewolves. Not saying they need Black Rage / Red Thirst Vampire Magic super units like Wulfen, but maybe????

Should everyone in the army have access to Jump Packs, including unique HQ's? Yes.
Should BA Artificer armor provide a 6++ like SW Runic armor? Yes.
Should BA Lightning Claws be called Blood Talons, like dreads, give +1 Str - like wolf claws? Yes.
Should all BA with Jump packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath? Yes!
Should BA have access to Centurions? NO!
Should BA have access to Grav Cannons? NO!
Should BA be given a new weapon like SW did with Helfrost? YES! - How BA get a marine version of Death Spinners - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.

Should Libby Dreads be better or taken in a conclave? Yes.
Wouldn't it make more sense that Sanguinary priests be treated like Lone Wolves and have no Force Org Slot - allowing them to be taken as one per Troop/Fast/Elite unit taken. Or allow a SPriest to be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a sargent upgrade - FNP for all! YES!
Should the Sanguinor be an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW - at his current price? YES!
Should the Techmarine HQ to take a TFC? YES!
Should Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price? Yes!

Does the army need a Command Squad, Sternguard Squad and Vanguard Veteran Squad? NO! Should those units be folded into 1 Elite squad that can pick and choose weapons and get some bonuses - Like wolf Guard? YES!
Do they need both types of Terminator Squads listed? No - Just give them Blood Terminators that can pick and choose weapons - Like wolf Guard terminators? Yes!
Should they get Cataphractii Terminators? Yes!
Should they get Super Vampires? Maybe! - or maybe buffs below to DC and Sanguinary Guard are enough coupled with the BA Jump pack buffs and ability to take a SPriest with any squad.
Do their Dreads need a point decrease and more attacks? Yes.
Do Furiosos and DC dreads need more distinctive abilities? Yes.
Should Lemartes be able to be taken as part of a DC upgrade, unit like Lukas the Trickster is for Blood Claws? Yes of course.
Should Sangiunary Guard's death masks give them a 4++ but cost 10ppm? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard's Axe give +3 Str AP2 and sword give +1Str Ap3 w/ Rending? Yes!
Should Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard be T5s? YES! - These effectively become TWC for BA
Should Death Company get Jump Packs for free? Yes!
Should Death Company get that Wulfen ability for 1 last strike the turn they die? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Storm Shields? Yes!
Should Death Company be T5? Yes! - These effectively become TWC for BA - albeit a different flavour

Should BA Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields? Yes
Should BA get Stormtalons and Stormhawks? YES!

That about does it. I made their codex competitive again. Bask in the glory. I want to buy this now

No, no, no and no.

This makes 0 sense. You're just cop pasting the space wolves codex onto the blood angels. Why are death company t5, same with the sang guard? Why should their artificer have a 6++? Why would they have a death spinner like weapon? All your doing is strapping upgrades onto stuff and giving them free gak to make them better.

Martel732 wrote:

Naaris wrote:
There's a part of me that always wanted to make BA army or SW army. I plan to do it when I can set the time and money aside. BA have cool fluff and are unique enough to have their own book like SW and DA and GK.,

All they need is a better codex inline with Spacewolves. Not saying they need Black Rage / Red Thirst Vampire Magic super units like Wulfen, but maybe????

Should everyone in the army have access to Jump Packs, including unique HQ's? Yes.
Should BA Artificer armor provide a 6++ like SW Runic armor? Yes.
Should BA Lightning Claws be called Blood Talons, like dreads, give +1 Str - like wolf claws? Yes.
Should all BA with Jump packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath? Yes!
Should BA have access to Centurions? NO!
Should BA have access to Grav Cannons? NO!
Should BA be given a new weapon like SW did with Helfrost? YES! - How BA get a marine version of Death Spinners - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.

Should Libby Dreads be better or taken in a conclave? Yes.
Wouldn't it make more sense that Sanguinary priests be treated like Lone Wolves and have no Force Org Slot - allowing them to be taken as one per Troop/Fast/Elite unit taken. Or allow a SPriest to be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a sargent upgrade - FNP for all! YES!
Should the Sanguinor be an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW - at his current price? YES!
Should the Techmarine HQ to take a TFC? YES!
Should Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price? Yes!

Does the army need a Command Squad, Sternguard Squad and Vanguard Veteran Squad? NO! Should those units be folded into 1 Elite squad that can pick and choose weapons and get some bonuses - Like wolf Guard? YES!
Do they need both types of Terminator Squads listed? No - Just give them Blood Terminators that can pick and choose weapons - Like wolf Guard terminators? Yes!
Should they get Cataphractii Terminators? Yes!
Should they get Super Vampires? Maybe! - or maybe buffs below to DC and Sanguinary Guard are enough coupled with the BA Jump pack buffs and ability to take a SPriest with any squad.
Do their Dreads need a point decrease and more attacks? Yes.
Do Furiosos and DC dreads need more distinctive abilities? Yes.
Should Lemartes be able to be taken as part of a DC upgrade, unit like Lukas the Trickster is for Blood Claws? Yes of course.
Should Sangiunary Guard's death masks give them a 4++ but cost 10ppm? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard's Axe give +3 Str AP2 and sword give +1Str Ap3 w/ Rending? Yes!
Should Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard be T5s? YES! - These effectively become TWC for BA
Should Death Company get Jump Packs for free? Yes!
Should Death Company get that Wulfen ability for 1 last strike the turn they die? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Storm Shields? Yes!
Should Death Company be T5? Yes! - These effectively become TWC for BA - albeit a different flavour

Should BA Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields? Yes
Should BA get Stormtalons and Stormhawks? YES!

That about does it. I made their codex competitive again. Bask in the glory. I want to buy this now

I like most of this stuff, but can meqs function against Tau/Eldar without grav cannons? That's a legitimate question. Without a Wolfstar or Wulfenstar, and no grav cannons, these improvements seem rather hollow. The Riptide and WK still stomp all over us.

DUDE!!! OMG

DID you not see I gave you monfilament guns that you could take on Jump infantry that is proven to waste MCs. Those same Jump infantry would now be able to all jump in and attack those MC's with AP 2 weapons.

Do you run a bot that auto replies about grav cannons and riptides?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Really? Everyone gets a cavalry option? Not only would that be arguably OP if they were equivalent with TWC, it'd butcher fluff. I could however see assault bikes instead with 2 wounds and t 5 if they wanted to make up for it.

Depends - if they were actually pointed correctly (shock) they would be fine if as you say to have assault bike/cavalry.

The fluff is butchered anyway with regards to Marines - Vanilla and Flavoured looking hard at Centurions and ."flavour units" plus the explosion of SM flyers.

Oh please.

We're talking about a setting where lost technology is found almost every day and immediately put back into production if it was for the Astartes. It's been that way for how long?

er never.

Most "new" SM vehicles were a result of wrangles with the Adeptus Mechanicus and took quite some time to appear following the actual discovery.

It's been that way forever, Morden. Hell it was even mentioned in the first Gaunt's Ghosts book, where a scout team that discovered a friggin' STC for a sharper combat knife for the Astartes were awarded stewardship of a planet by the Mechanicus.

Sadly GW decided that rather than bring out a series of "fluff" units for many and varied Chapters they would just keep hammering away at the same old Chapters and make sillier and sillier flavoured units like Wolfs on a wolf sleigh being pulled by.......guess what Wolves,

Oh please.
You would have a point if Space Wolves did not have accompanying battle wolves for their characters for how long now?
How long have the Wulfen been a thing? How long have they made a point of mentioning the wolves of Fenris being monstrous?

You don't like it; fine. That's not the same as them just hamfistedly throwing things in there.
And yes, Canis Wolfborn was dumb. But that was a Cruddace thing and to be expected.

That monofilament gun will never kill a Riptide in a reasonable amount of time. Or a WK. Fishing for "6"s works against terminators, but not against power MCs.

And how long did it take for them to make the knives into standard weapons for the Astartes - was it immediately because as you know very well that's not what happens - it takes time.

Yeah Centurions were not ham-fistedly crammed into the range - oh wait.

Yeah all the new flyers were not hamifistedly crammed in.

Yeah the Super Wolf Sleigh was not crammed in.

Wolves were originally just something that accompanied Leman Russ, then they got pushed in more as the Codex became more and more Wolfy- the original army list for the Wolves back in Chapter Approved had nothing of the sort but rather than making more inersting stuff for more Chapters they had to keep ramping up the flavour to a million

So we got a few Wolves
oh and then Cyberwolves
and then Space Wolves riding Giant Wolves
and then A Space Wolf with Wolf Claws and Wolf Necklace.
A Space Wolf on a Wolf Sleigh being pulled by Wolves
see the pattern its the Same with Blood Angels and Dark Angels

but then you know all this even if you are ignoring it.

 Mr Morden wrote:
And how long did it take for them to make the knives into standard weapons for the Astartes - was it immediately because as you know very well that's not what happens - it takes time.

Yeah Centurions were not ham-fistedly crammed into the range - oh wait.

Yeah all the new flyers were not hamifistedly crammed in.

Yeah the Super Wolf Sleigh was not crammed in.

Wolves were originally just something that accompanied Leman Russ, then they got pushed in more as the Codex became more and more Wolfy- the original army list for the Wolves back in Chapter Approved had nothing of the sort but rather than making more inersting stuff for more Chapters they had to keep ramping up the flavour to a million

So we got a few Wolves
oh and then Cyberwolves
and then Space Wolves riding Giant Wolves
and then A Space Wolf with Wolf Claws and Wolf Necklace.
A Space Wolf on a Wolf Sleigh being pulled by Wolves
see the pattern its the Same with Blood Angels and Dark Angels

but then you know all this even if you are ignoring it.

Right, it's not like it's easy making new stuff for something that started 30 years ago. Am I happy with the Wolfy wolf stuff? No, but guess what? Coming up with gak for 30 years straight is hard. I'm proud they're at least trying to keep making new stuff.

Also, don't act like GW is the first to pull this. Activision did it with Call of Duty Zombies and Blizzard pulled it with the Wrath of the Lich King Deathknight Deathy Death stuff everywhere.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Naaris wrote:
There's a part of me that always wanted to make BA army or SW army. I plan to do it when I can set the time and money aside. BA have cool fluff and are unique enough to have their own book like SW and DA and GK.,

All they need is a better codex inline with Spacewolves. Not saying they need Black Rage / Red Thirst Vampire Magic super units like Wulfen, but maybe????

Should everyone in the army have access to Jump Packs, including unique HQ's? Yes.
Should BA Artificer armor provide a 6++ like SW Runic armor? Yes.
Should BA Lightning Claws be called Blood Talons, like dreads, give +1 Str - like wolf claws? Yes.
Should all BA with Jump packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath? Yes!
Should BA have access to Centurions? NO!
Should BA have access to Grav Cannons? NO!
Should BA be given a new weapon like SW did with Helfrost? YES! - How BA get a marine version of Death Spinners - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.

Should Libby Dreads be better or taken in a conclave? Yes.
Wouldn't it make more sense that Sanguinary priests be treated like Lone Wolves and have no Force Org Slot - allowing them to be taken as one per Troop/Fast/Elite unit taken. Or allow a SPriest to be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a sargent upgrade - FNP for all! YES!
Should the Sanguinor be an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW - at his current price? YES!
Should the Techmarine HQ to take a TFC? YES!
Should Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price? Yes!

Does the army need a Command Squad, Sternguard Squad and Vanguard Veteran Squad? NO! Should those units be folded into 1 Elite squad that can pick and choose weapons and get some bonuses - Like wolf Guard? YES!
Do they need both types of Terminator Squads listed? No - Just give them Blood Terminators that can pick and choose weapons - Like wolf Guard terminators? Yes!
Should they get Cataphractii Terminators? Yes!
Should they get Super Vampires? Maybe! - or maybe buffs below to DC and Sanguinary Guard are enough coupled with the BA Jump pack buffs and ability to take a SPriest with any squad.
Do their Dreads need a point decrease and more attacks? Yes.
Do Furiosos and DC dreads need more distinctive abilities? Yes.
Should Lemartes be able to be taken as part of a DC upgrade, unit like Lukas the Trickster is for Blood Claws? Yes of course.
Should Sangiunary Guard's death masks give them a 4++ but cost 10ppm? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard's Axe give +3 Str AP2 and sword give +1Str Ap3 w/ Rending? Yes!
Should Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard be T5s? YES! - These effectively become TWC for BA
Should Death Company get Jump Packs for free? Yes!
Should Death Company get that Wulfen ability for 1 last strike the turn they die? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Storm Shields? Yes!
Should Death Company be T5? Yes! - These effectively become TWC for BA - albeit a different flavour

Should BA Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields? Yes
Should BA get Stormtalons and Stormhawks? YES!

That about does it. I made their codex competitive again. Bask in the glory. I want to buy this now

No, no, no and no.

This makes 0 sense. You're just cop pasting the space wolves codex onto the blood angels. Why are death company t5, same with the sang guard? Why should their artificer have a 6++? Why would they have a death spinner like weapon? All your doing is strapping upgrades onto stuff and giving them free gak to make them better.

I can't hear you because all of the blood raining down!

BA are 1 of the 4 snowflake marysue unique SM chapeters that have their own codex but they are littered with crap that comes from the vanilla dex. The improvements listed would Blood Bloody Blood Blood the Blood Angels and make them thematic. You know Jetpack loving assault loving marines who's "chapter tactic" is FURIOUS CHARGE. SO Their Elite units should reflect that. S Guard are beefed up golden angels which could stand to be much tougher than they are. DC are crazy guys that are doomed to die so why not get jacked up on Black Rage and red thrist which could be argued that the frenzy causes them to be much tougher than a normal marine. Hence T5.

Why doesn't their armor grant 6+. Writers at GW could easily retconn that all BA Artificer armor has flecks of Sanguinous's blood or armor bits in it that give it 6++

They have a deathspinner like weapon because they don't have grav and it give them a weapon to combat MC's and other tough creatures. Plus it sounds fluffy. And because its only range 12" it fits the BA motif of "The Blood Angels are designed for blitzkrieg. If you're playing Blood Angels, it's because you want a fast-paced and slightly reckless play style. This army, more than most, caters to raw aggression." They have yo get close to the enemy to use it. Then Assault whats left!

Except your weapon doesn't take out MCs. MCs are tough because of armor AND toughness.

It should really be S1 AP 2 fleshbane or something like that.

You understand how wounding against Initiative works right?

5 BA assault marines with my gun, shoot 10 Str 6 shots at a riptide at BS 4. The gun wounds the riptide against his Initiative which is 2. So its Str6 vs I2. That means that those guys wound that riptide on a 2+ . If they roll 6's those wounds are also at AP2.

Why do you think that warp spider spam cheese is tournament winning grade weapons. They kill MC's and GC's the same. You reduce wraithknights who are usually T8 to taking their armor save all the time and sometimes just their FNP.

Naaris wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Naaris wrote:
There's a part of me that always wanted to make BA army or SW army. I plan to do it when I can set the time and money aside. BA have cool fluff and are unique enough to have their own book like SW and DA and GK.,

All they need is a better codex inline with Spacewolves. Not saying they need Black Rage / Red Thirst Vampire Magic super units like Wulfen, but maybe????

Should everyone in the army have access to Jump Packs, including unique HQ's? Yes.
Should BA Artificer armor provide a 6++ like SW Runic armor? Yes.
Should BA Lightning Claws be called Blood Talons, like dreads, give +1 Str - like wolf claws? Yes.
Should all BA with Jump packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath? Yes!
Should BA have access to Centurions? NO!
Should BA have access to Grav Cannons? NO!
Should BA be given a new weapon like SW did with Helfrost? YES! - How BA get a marine version of Death Spinners - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.

Should Libby Dreads be better or taken in a conclave? Yes.
Wouldn't it make more sense that Sanguinary priests be treated like Lone Wolves and have no Force Org Slot - allowing them to be taken as one per Troop/Fast/Elite unit taken. Or allow a SPriest to be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a sargent upgrade - FNP for all! YES!
Should the Sanguinor be an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW - at his current price? YES!
Should the Techmarine HQ to take a TFC? YES!
Should Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price? Yes!

Does the army need a Command Squad, Sternguard Squad and Vanguard Veteran Squad? NO! Should those units be folded into 1 Elite squad that can pick and choose weapons and get some bonuses - Like wolf Guard? YES!
Do they need both types of Terminator Squads listed? No - Just give them Blood Terminators that can pick and choose weapons - Like wolf Guard terminators? Yes!
Should they get Cataphractii Terminators? Yes!
Should they get Super Vampires? Maybe! - or maybe buffs below to DC and Sanguinary Guard are enough coupled with the BA Jump pack buffs and ability to take a SPriest with any squad.
Do their Dreads need a point decrease and more attacks? Yes.
Do Furiosos and DC dreads need more distinctive abilities? Yes.
Should Lemartes be able to be taken as part of a DC upgrade, unit like Lukas the Trickster is for Blood Claws? Yes of course.
Should Sangiunary Guard's death masks give them a 4++ but cost 10ppm? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard's Axe give +3 Str AP2 and sword give +1Str Ap3 w/ Rending? Yes!
Should Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard be T5s? YES! - These effectively become TWC for BA
Should Death Company get Jump Packs for free? Yes!
Should Death Company get that Wulfen ability for 1 last strike the turn they die? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Storm Shields? Yes!
Should Death Company be T5? Yes! - These effectively become TWC for BA - albeit a different flavour

Should BA Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields? Yes
Should BA get Stormtalons and Stormhawks? YES!

That about does it. I made their codex competitive again. Bask in the glory. I want to buy this now

No, no, no and no.

This makes 0 sense. You're just cop pasting the space wolves codex onto the blood angels. Why are death company t5, same with the sang guard? Why should their artificer have a 6++? Why would they have a death spinner like weapon? All your doing is strapping upgrades onto stuff and giving them free gak to make them better.

I can't hear you because all of the blood raining down!

BA are 1 of the 4 snowflake marysue unique SM chapeters that have their own codex but they are littered with crap that comes from the vanilla dex. The improvements listed would Blood Bloody Blood Blood the Blood Angels and make them thematic. You know Jetpack loving assault loving marines who's "chapter tactic" is FURIOUS CHARGE. SO Their Elite units should reflect that. S Guard are beefed up golden angels which could stand to be much tougher than they are. DC are crazy guys that are doomed to die so why not get jacked up on Black Rage and red thrist which could be argued that the frenzy causes them to be much tougher than a normal marine. Hence T5.

Why doesn't their armor grant 6+. Writers at GW could easily retconn that all BA Artificer armor has flecks of Sanguinous's blood or armor bits in it that give it 6++

They have a deathspinner like weapon because they don't have grav and it give them a weapon to combat MC's and other tough creatures. Plus it sounds fluffy. And because its only range 12" it fits the BA motif of "The Blood Angels are designed for blitzkrieg. If you're playing Blood Angels, it's because you want a fast-paced and slightly reckless play style. This army, more than most, caters to raw aggression." They have yo get close to the enemy to use it. Then Assault whats left!

I do like a lot of suggestions (and if Xenos codexes were nergfed to be balanced against this it would be fine).

Death Company/Sanguinary Guard shouldn't be T5 though. Maybe WS5 and/or S5 because they believe they are Sanguinius reborn so adopt his power in combat. But at the end of the day, they are still marines in power armour.

Also no Storm Shields for them, because Death Company are meant to die and the Storm Shield is rare. Besides, can you imagine trying to take the Storm Shield off him? Maybe a combat shield or innate invulnerable save, but not a 3++.

I think that with the changes I suggested to boost the codex. Coupled with a "decurion" and awesome formations. BA could be beasts!

T5 on DC and SGuard is required if not then perhaps 2 wounds for those unit types.
Still on the fence about Super Vampire marines though. Something that would give AOE buffs or act like a TWC unit providing an awesome shield to a killy HQ bomb. All jump pack related.
Hell perhaps T5 could be granted by some beefed up jump pack addon. Like a super jump pack that gives 18" movement, fleet and hit and run and T5 for 50ppm.

Naaris wrote:
You understand how wounding against Initiative works right?

5 BA assault marines with my gun, shoot 10 Str 6 shots at a riptide at BS 4. The gun wounds the riptide against his Initiative which is 2. So its Str6 vs I2. That means that those guys wound that riptide on a 2+ . If they roll 6's those wounds are also at AP2.

Why do you think that warp spider spam cheese is tournament winning grade weapons. They kill MC's and GC's the same. You reduce wraithknights who are usually T8 to taking their armor save all the time and sometimes just their FNP.

I don't think you understand how many non-ap 2 wounds you have to throw at a riptide. And this weapon is useless vs wks. You can't kill riptidez with poison obr rending. It has to be a deluge of pure ap2.

Naaris wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Naaris wrote:
There's a part of me that always wanted to make BA army or SW army. I plan to do it when I can set the time and money aside. BA have cool fluff and are unique enough to have their own book like SW and DA and GK.,

All they need is a better codex inline with Spacewolves. Not saying they need Black Rage / Red Thirst Vampire Magic super units like Wulfen, but maybe????

Should everyone in the army have access to Jump Packs, including unique HQ's? Yes.
Should BA Artificer armor provide a 6++ like SW Runic armor? Yes.
Should BA Lightning Claws be called Blood Talons, like dreads, give +1 Str - like wolf claws? Yes.
Should all BA with Jump packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath? Yes!
Should BA have access to Centurions? NO!
Should BA have access to Grav Cannons? NO!
Should BA be given a new weapon like SW did with Helfrost? YES! - How BA get a marine version of Death Spinners - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.

Should Libby Dreads be better or taken in a conclave? Yes.
Wouldn't it make more sense that Sanguinary priests be treated like Lone Wolves and have no Force Org Slot - allowing them to be taken as one per Troop/Fast/Elite unit taken. Or allow a SPriest to be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a sargent upgrade - FNP for all! YES!
Should the Sanguinor be an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW - at his current price? YES!
Should the Techmarine HQ to take a TFC? YES!
Should Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price? Yes!

Does the army need a Command Squad, Sternguard Squad and Vanguard Veteran Squad? NO! Should those units be folded into 1 Elite squad that can pick and choose weapons and get some bonuses - Like wolf Guard? YES!
Do they need both types of Terminator Squads listed? No - Just give them Blood Terminators that can pick and choose weapons - Like wolf Guard terminators? Yes!
Should they get Cataphractii Terminators? Yes!
Should they get Super Vampires? Maybe! - or maybe buffs below to DC and Sanguinary Guard are enough coupled with the BA Jump pack buffs and ability to take a SPriest with any squad.
Do their Dreads need a point decrease and more attacks? Yes.
Do Furiosos and DC dreads need more distinctive abilities? Yes.
Should Lemartes be able to be taken as part of a DC upgrade, unit like Lukas the Trickster is for Blood Claws? Yes of course.
Should Sangiunary Guard's death masks give them a 4++ but cost 10ppm? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard's Axe give +3 Str AP2 and sword give +1Str Ap3 w/ Rending? Yes!
Should Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard be T5s? YES! - These effectively become TWC for BA
Should Death Company get Jump Packs for free? Yes!
Should Death Company get that Wulfen ability for 1 last strike the turn they die? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Storm Shields? Yes!
Should Death Company be T5? Yes! - These effectively become TWC for BA - albeit a different flavour

Should BA Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields? Yes
Should BA get Stormtalons and Stormhawks? YES!

That about does it. I made their codex competitive again. Bask in the glory. I want to buy this now

No, no, no and no.

This makes 0 sense. You're just cop pasting the space wolves codex onto the blood angels. Why are death company t5, same with the sang guard? Why should their artificer have a 6++? Why would they have a death spinner like weapon? All your doing is strapping upgrades onto stuff and giving them free gak to make them better.

I can't hear you because all of the blood raining down!

BA are 1 of the 4 snowflake marysue unique SM chapeters that have their own codex but they are littered with crap that comes from the vanilla dex. The improvements listed would Blood Bloody Blood Blood the Blood Angels and make them thematic. You know Jetpack loving assault loving marines who's "chapter tactic" is FURIOUS CHARGE. SO Their Elite units should reflect that. S Guard are beefed up golden angels which could stand to be much tougher than they are. DC are crazy guys that are doomed to die so why not get jacked up on Black Rage and red thrist which could be argued that the frenzy causes them to be much tougher than a normal marine. Hence T5.

Why doesn't their armor grant 6+. Writers at GW could easily retconn that all BA Artificer armor has flecks of Sanguinous's blood or armor bits in it that give it 6++

They have a deathspinner like weapon because they don't have grav and it give them a weapon to combat MC's and other tough creatures. Plus it sounds fluffy. And because its only range 12" it fits the BA motif of "The Blood Angels are designed for blitzkrieg. If you're playing Blood Angels, it's because you want a fast-paced and slightly reckless play style. This army, more than most, caters to raw aggression." They have yo get close to the enemy to use it. Then Assault whats left!

Since when were sanguinary guard "beefed up golden angels"? they're veterans in artificer armour. And DC already have FNP to reflect the crazy=tough thing. Same with the 6+, it still doesn't make any sense. If the blood of sanguinius protected people, priests would have 2+ invulns. Plus giving them rending swords for some reason and s+3 axes still is just making them better for no other reason than to beef up their stats.

Have some originality and creativity if you're going to re-write a codex, don't just copy paste and give them better stuff.

You have no justification for these changes other than "but SW have it!", and even then you're pulling some of this stuff out of your arse just to cram in higher stats.

And BA are still a very much codex adhering chapter, they've still got command squads, sternguards, etc.

I'd have to think long and hard for a BA rewrite. The first question is how codex compliant are they?

Martel732 wrote:
I'd have to think long and hard for a BA rewrite. The first question is how codex compliant are they?

Last time I checked the only thing they disobey is the 1000 marines cap because death company aren't accounted for in that, the whole red thirst thing, and they aren't exactly using it's tactics a bunch, but they still listen to it.

They still use tac squads, not grey hunters or crusader squad type units. BA are a weird bird, really.

Martel732 wrote:
They still use tac squads, not grey hunters or crusader squad type units. BA are a weird bird, really.

Like I said, the only time they are really only disobeying it is concerning their curse/mutation thing.

For a BA rewrite though, all they really need is vanilla marine stuff and formations. They are a okay dex if no one in your group uses formations, but as soon as those come out you're out of luck. Like someone else said, all they really need is a decurion, maybe some price drops, and a couple special rules.

They could probably make up a battle company proportion with the amount of Death Company they have on the field and keep locked up in the Tower of Amareo.

They are Codex compliant to a degree, more of an emphasis on fast units to fit their lightning assault tactics.

I would allow a Jump Pack HQ to make Assault Marines troops, as Scouts go into Assault Marines first. Heck, out of the three main MEQ (Tacticals, Assault and Devastators), Tacticals are the rarest of the three.

More would have to be done obviously but that would be a nice starting point.

 Mr Morden wrote:

So we got a few Wolves
oh and then Cyberwolves
and then Space Wolves riding Giant Wolves
and then A Space Wolf with Wolf Claws and Wolf Necklace.
A Space Wolf on a Wolf Sleigh being pulled by Wolves

You left out the giant flying Wolf head...

 Griddlelol wrote:
Father Christmas Grimnar is the dumbest thing in any codex.

What makes me sad about it is that if they had just released Grimnar on his own I would probably have bought it. The sled is too fething much.
Honestly, when news of a new Logan Grimnar leaked I just wished for a re-sized plastic version of his metal pose. Still a great mini, just a tad small now next to other Termies...

Really the most genius thing they could ever do is:

-Release space marine dex with all the basic units, formations, and chapter tactics for all the chapters, including the ones that used to be separate books. No named characters, no chapter specific traits, powers, relics or anything.

-Have a small softback supplement for each chapter with the named characters, special units, traits, powers, relics, and their own voltron-formation, as well as data sheets for formations that are unique to their chapter. (Like any involving death company for BA, for example.)

-printin' dat money.

I'm surprised no-one has suggested making BA and DA Supplements. They'd have to include more new/unique units than most supplements, but that is no bad thing. The book would would be smaller, cheaper, and the main units would get automatically updated when the main book does. Special rules could be a chapter tactic rather than an army-wide rule. The supplement could also define what units are NOT allowed from the main 'dex.

Edit: Hah - opened the page long before I read it and got beaten to it!

If I had my druthers, all the Marines would be in a single codex.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Really the most genius thing they could ever do is:

-Release space marine dex with all the basic units, formations, and chapter tactics for all the chapters, including the ones that used to be separate books. No named characters, no chapter specific traits, powers, relics or anything.

-Have a small softback supplement for each chapter with the named characters, special units, traits, powers, relics, and their own voltron-formation, as well as data sheets for formations that are unique to their chapter. (Like any involving death company for BA, for example.)

-printin' dat money.

They did this in 3rd edition. It was fairly universally reviled.

People hated having to buy multiple books to play a single army.

 insaniak wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Really the most genius thing they could ever do is:

-Release space marine dex with all the basic units, formations, and chapter tactics for all the chapters, including the ones that used to be separate books. No named characters, no chapter specific traits, powers, relics or anything.

-Have a small softback supplement for each chapter with the named characters, special units, traits, powers, relics, and their own voltron-formation, as well as data sheets for formations that are unique to their chapter. (Like any involving death company for BA, for example.)

-printin' dat money.

They did this in 3rd edition. It was fairly universally reviled.

People hated having to buy multiple books to play a single army.

Isn't that what 40k is at the minute, but more expensive than before?

At least, if you don't want to play a CAD. I think almost every army has a supplement to use.

Seriously people? It's not that hard to re-organise Loyalists without the sheer lunacy of a ginormous & unfeasibly gakfest mega codex of dooooooom!

1. Codex Space Marines
- as it is now, with background & Chapter Traits for the 'codex adherent' First Legions and their successor Chapters.
Throw the new Librarius lore in here as the generic 'Space Marine' lore, and then shove the other 3 lores into the BRB, since there's exactly 0 fluff or actual reasons that non-Muhreeens can't use them, other than obnoxious favoritism...

2. Codex Champions of the Imperium
- as the new Angels of Death supplement is now, with additional rules, Warlord Traits, Relics, and specialist Decurion style detachments for the Imperial/Crimson Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard & Black Templars.
(Smurfs can go feth themselves, they get enough as it is in the basic codex, including far too many special snowflake characters!)

3. Codex Angels of Death
- a new supplement codex for both the Blood Angels & Dark Angels, including their background, unique units & characters, Sanguinary & Interromancy psychic lores, Warlord Traits, Relics and formations + Decurion style detachments.

4. Codex Space Wolves

5. Codex Grey Knights

Now BA's & DA's draw the bulk of their stuff from the main Marine book, and their supplement codex can simply add/remove unit options where it fits... Wolves & Knights are too distinct in their organisations to even think of throwing under the basic codex, and we do all this while removing only a single book. (as both Angels 'dexes get mashed together)

Then for Chaos, we can have;
1. Codex Chaos Space Marines
- add in Legion/Renegade Traits for the Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Red Corsairs & Crimson Slaughter. A fully expanded psychic lore for each of the Gods, a larger Relic table, and formations + Decurion style detachment.
Basically, make the basic Chaos 'dex into a mirror of the basic Loyalist 'dex, but with it's own unique flavourings & wargear. (ie: marks, gifts/mutations, daemon engines, etc...)

2. Codex Champions of Chaos
- a supplement with rules for the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard & Emperor's Children, including unique Warlord Traits, wargear/Relics, new god-specific units, and formations + unique Decurion style detachments for each.
Basically, it's to Chaos what both the Champions of the Imperium/Angels of Death are to the Loyalist side.

3. Codex Khorne Daemonkin

4. Codex Daemons

5. Codex Lost and the Damned
- a return of a mixed list for the mortal hordes of Chaos! Apostate Cardinals/Arch Heretics, Rogue Psykers, Traitor Generals & their regiments, Mutant hordes, Plague Zombies, Cultists and all manner of various whacky Chaotic war engines.
Hell, you could even throw a handful of Dark Mech in as well, since a goodly number of the various unit entries can easily be generic templates. (ie: a 'Renegade Veterans' unit could have options for carapace armour & Hellrifles, which could be a chaotic meshing of hot-shot/basic skittarii type gun, and therefore become a 'Dark Mech Retinue'!)

Experiment 626 wrote:
Seriously people? It's not that hard to re-organise Loyalists without the sheer lunacy of a ginormous & unfeasibly gakfest mega codex of dooooooom!

1. Codex Space Marines
- as it is now, with background & Chapter Traits for the 'codex adherent' First Legions and their successor Chapters.
Throw the new Librarius lore in here as the generic 'Space Marine' lore, and then shove the other 3 lores into the BRB, since there's exactly 0 fluff or actual reasons that non-Muhreeens can't use them, other than obnoxious favoritism...

2. Codex Champions of the Imperium
- as the new Angels of Death supplement is now, with additional rules, Warlord Traits, Relics, and specialist Decurion style detachments for the Imperial/Crimson Fists, Iron Hands, White Scars, Salamanders, Raven Guard & Black Templars.
(Smurfs can go feth themselves, they get enough as it is in the basic codex, including far too many special snowflake characters!)

3. Codex Angels of Death
- a new supplement codex for both the Blood Angels & Dark Angels, including their background, unique units & characters, Sanguinary & Interromancy psychic lores, Warlord Traits, Relics and formations + Decurion style detachments.

4. Codex Space Wolves

5. Codex Grey Knights

Now BA's & DA's draw the bulk of their stuff from the main Marine book, and their supplement codex can simply add/remove unit options where it fits... Wolves & Knights are too distinct in their organisations to even think of throwing under the basic codex, and we do all this while removing only a single book. (as both Angels 'dexes get mashed together)

Then for Chaos, we can have;
1. Codex Chaos Space Marines
- add in Legion/Renegade Traits for the Black Legion, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Red Corsairs & Crimson Slaughter. A fully expanded psychic lore for each of the Gods, a larger Relic table, and formations + Decurion style detachment.
Basically, make the basic Chaos 'dex into a mirror of the basic Loyalist 'dex, but with it's own unique flavourings & wargear. (ie: marks, gifts/mutations, daemon engines, etc...)

2. Codex Champions of Chaos
- a supplement with rules for the World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard & Emperor's Children, including unique Warlord Traits, wargear/Relics, new god-specific units, and formations + unique Decurion style detachments for each.
Basically, it's to Chaos what both the Champions of the Imperium/Angels of Death are to the Loyalist side.

3. Codex Khorne Daemonkin

4. Codex Daemons

5. Codex Lost and the Damned
- a return of a mixed list for the mortal hordes of Chaos! Apostate Cardinals/Arch Heretics, Rogue Psykers, Traitor Generals & their regiments, Mutant hordes, Plague Zombies, Cultists and all manner of various whacky Chaotic war engines.
Hell, you could even throw a handful of Dark Mech in as well, since a goodly number of the various unit entries can easily be generic templates. (ie: a 'Renegade Veterans' unit could have options for carapace armour & Hellrifles, which could be a chaotic meshing of hot-shot/basic skittarii type gun, and therefore become a 'Dark Mech Retinue'!)

So nice to see you care about us Ultramarine players Experiment. It gives me the warm and fuzzies.

Naaris wrote:
There's a part of me that always wanted to make BA army or SW army. I plan to do it when I can set the time and money aside. BA have cool fluff and are unique enough to have their own book like SW and DA and GK.,

All they need is a better codex inline with Spacewolves. Not saying they need Black Rage / Red Thirst Vampire Magic super units like Wulfen, but maybe????

Should everyone in the army have access to Jump Packs, including unique HQ's? Yes.
Should BA Artificer armor provide a 6++ like SW Runic armor? Yes.
Should BA Lightning Claws be called Blood Talons, like dreads, give +1 Str - like wolf claws? Yes.
Should all BA with Jump packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath? Yes!
Should BA have access to Centurions? NO!
Should BA have access to Grav Cannons? NO!
Should BA be given a new weapon like SW did with Helfrost? YES! - How BA get a marine version of Death Spinners - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.

Should Libby Dreads be better or taken in a conclave? Yes.
Wouldn't it make more sense that Sanguinary priests be treated like Lone Wolves and have no Force Org Slot - allowing them to be taken as one per Troop/Fast/Elite unit taken. Or allow a SPriest to be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a sargent upgrade - FNP for all! YES!
Should the Sanguinor be an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW - at his current price? YES!
Should the Techmarine HQ to take a TFC? YES!
Should Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price? Yes!

Does the army need a Command Squad, Sternguard Squad and Vanguard Veteran Squad? NO! Should those units be folded into 1 Elite squad that can pick and choose weapons and get some bonuses - Like wolf Guard? YES!
Do they need both types of Terminator Squads listed? No - Just give them Blood Terminators that can pick and choose weapons - Like wolf Guard terminators? Yes!
Should they get Cataphractii Terminators? Yes!
Should they get Super Vampires? Maybe! - or maybe buffs below to DC and Sanguinary Guard are enough coupled with the BA Jump pack buffs and ability to take a SPriest with any squad.
Do their Dreads need a point decrease and more attacks? Yes.
Do Furiosos and DC dreads need more distinctive abilities? Yes.
Should Lemartes be able to be taken as part of a DC upgrade, unit like Lukas the Trickster is for Blood Claws? Yes of course.
Should Sangiunary Guard's death masks give them a 4++ but cost 10ppm? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard's Axe give +3 Str AP2 and sword give +1Str Ap3 w/ Rending? Yes!
Should Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds? YES!
Should Sanguinary Guard be T5s? YES! - These effectively become TWC for BA
Should Death Company get Jump Packs for free? Yes!
Should Death Company get that Wulfen ability for 1 last strike the turn they die? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)? Yes!
Should Death Company get access to Storm Shields? Yes!
Should Death Company be T5? Yes! - These effectively become TWC for BA - albeit a different flavour

Should BA Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields? Yes
Should BA get Stormtalons and Stormhawks? YES!

That about does it. I made their codex competitive again. Bask in the glory. I want to buy this now

I love it! Seriously if those changes were made I'd go back to running BA all week long. That said, T5 for Sang guard and DC is a bit much. WS5 would make more sense and piss less people off.

BTW The monifilament guns should definitely be Assault "18

Also, aside from implementation of the changes abive, I'm thinking BA SW and DA could all be folded into a single dex like the 2nd edition Angels of Death. That way vanilla marines stay vanilla, there aren't half a dozen astartes codices and it wouldn't take 3 years for all astartes to gqet updated.

@War Kitten: Smurfs get the single largest codex in the entire game... And ideally, a supplement that gives added unique perks to the other 1st Founding Chapters should also include some drawbacks as well, so it's not entirely just 'Smurfs +1'.

For example, Salamanders should get back their ability to take Hammernators within their regular 'tactical' Terminator squads, but have more restricted access to Bikes, and especially Jump Packs & Land Speeders, as the high gravity of their homeworld makes using & training with such things much more difficult.
Meanwhile, the White Scars' own fluff forbids Dreadnoughts, or else, they are extremely rare. Hence, a special Scars detachment should heavily limit Dreadnoughts, and force all infantry units to take transports, since their whole shtick is supposedly meant to be highly mobile warfare.

Likewise, perhaps Ravenguard get 0 access to Centurions ('cause those are totally super stealthy!) but more Infiltrating, while Templars lose out on Devastators, Whirlwinds & Thunderfire Cannons, but can take Combat Shields + more specialist close combat gear in their Assault/Biker squads, the latter of which can also again mix Scout Bikers within the squad.

If you don't want to abide by these fluffier restrictions, than a player can just choose to run a basic C: SM's army using their favourite Chapter Tactics, but they lose out on the super special snowflake added Traits & relics.

But really, considering how the Ultramarines are supposed to be THE ultra codex-adherent Chapter, it's a bit rich giving them added special snowflakness in a further supplement.
Their snowflakiness is that they rigidly adhere to the holy codex above all else. Just add the 'new' basic formations such as the Skyhammer, etc... to the main codex. (and Sicarius' speartip formation if it's not already in there)

Experiment 626 wrote:
@War Kitten: Smurfs get the single largest codex in the entire game... And ideally, a supplement that gives added unique perks to the other 1st Founding Chapters should also include some drawbacks as well, so it's not entirely just 'Smurfs +1'.

For example, Salamanders should get back their ability to take Hammernators within their regular 'tactical' Terminator squads, but have more restricted access to Bikes, and especially Jump Packs & Land Speeders, as the high gravity of their homeworld makes using & training with such things much more difficult.
Meanwhile, the White Scars' own fluff forbids Dreadnoughts, or else, they are extremely rare. Hence, a special Scars detachment should heavily limit Dreadnoughts, and force all infantry units to take transports, since their whole shtick is supposedly meant to be highly mobile warfare.

Likewise, perhaps Ravenguard get 0 access to Centurions ('cause those are totally super stealthy!) but more Infiltrating, while Templars lose out on Devastators, Whirlwinds & Thunderfire Cannons, but can take Combat Shields + more specialist close combat gear in their Assault/Biker squads, the latter of which can also again mix Scout Bikers within the squad.

If you don't want to abide by these fluffier restrictions, than a player can just choose to run a basic C: SM's army using their favourite Chapter Tactics, but they lose out on the super special snowflake added Traits & relics.

But really, considering how the Ultramarines are supposed to be THE ultra codex-adherent Chapter, it's a bit rich giving them added special snowflakness in a further supplement.
Their snowflakiness is that they rigidly adhere to the holy codex above all else. Just add the 'new' basic formations such as the Skyhammer, etc... to the main codex. (and Sicarius' speartip formation if it's not already in there)

I perfectly understand your points, and I agree with many of them. We didn't really need the AoD supplement, I was perfectly happy with the codex itself (although getting two in like two years was a bit of a headscratcher for me). It just irritates me to see the army I've run since 5th edition get bashed.

You can blame Ward for that. I can't imagine the other 8 Legions 'being flawed because they weren't the pinnacle of the Imperium, the ultramarines' would have gone well with collectors.

It's been toned down a bit, but never forgotten.

 Frozocrone wrote:
You can blame Ward for that. I can't imagine the other 8 Legions 'being flawed because they weren't the pinnacle of the Imperium, the ultramarines' would have gone well with collectors.

It's been toned down a bit, but never forgotten.

Eh, as stupid as Ward's (in)famous comments & rabid fanboy masturbation are, it's more so the fact that we had a wholly unnecessary supplement come out, that then gave absolutely nothing to the likes of the poor Templars and little to other under-represented 1st Founding Chapters such as the Ravenguard & Sallies... Meanwhile we also have Chaos Marines who are at the point of being pretty much an entirely pointless bad joke...

And despite all this, we had some Ultrasmurf whiners *****ing that the AoD supplement gave them nothing new.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
You can blame Ward for that. I can't imagine the other 8 Legions 'being flawed because they weren't the pinnacle of the Imperium, the ultramarines' would have gone well with collectors.

It's been toned down a bit, but never forgotten.

Eh, as stupid as Ward's (in)famous comments & rabid fanboy masturbation are, it's more so the fact that we had a wholly unnecessary supplement come out, that then gave absolutely nothing to the likes of the poor Templars and little to other under-represented 1st Founding Chapters such as the Ravenguard & Sallies... Meanwhile we also have Chaos Marines who are at the point of being pretty much an entirely pointless bad joke...

And despite all this, we had some Ultrasmurf whiners *****ing that the AoD supplement gave them nothing new.

proably cause it DIDN'T? maybe just MAYBE Ultramarine fans are sick of every other SM chapter being "Smurfs +1"?
Imperial Fists (jusat to use an example) can do everything UMs can, and then do their own stuff too? UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead of being mostly ignroed and then sneered at by people who are still butt hurt over a Matt Ward Codex being, *gasp* poorly written.

BrianDavion wrote:
UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead

You aren't alone. Now imagine playing a faction that didn't get 2 codex's in 2 years both loaded with new toys and chapter rules.

 MarsNZ wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead

You aren't alone. Now imagine playing a faction that didn't get 2 codex's in 2 years both loaded with new toys and chapter rules.

one of my armies is Chaos. belive me I'm familer with it.

Remember when BAs, IG, GKs and Necrons were the top of the 40k ladder in 5th? And how BA players used to tell Codex Marine players to just play BA, cause SM was bad and they should feel bad?

How the times have changed...

BrianDavion wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
You can blame Ward for that. I can't imagine the other 8 Legions 'being flawed because they weren't the pinnacle of the Imperium, the ultramarines' would have gone well with collectors.

It's been toned down a bit, but never forgotten.

Eh, as stupid as Ward's (in)famous comments & rabid fanboy masturbation are, it's more so the fact that we had a wholly unnecessary supplement come out, that then gave absolutely nothing to the likes of the poor Templars and little to other under-represented 1st Founding Chapters such as the Ravenguard & Sallies... Meanwhile we also have Chaos Marines who are at the point of being pretty much an entirely pointless bad joke...

And despite all this, we had some Ultrasmurf whiners *****ing that the AoD supplement gave them nothing new.

proably cause it DIDN'T? maybe just MAYBE Ultramarine fans are sick of every other SM chapter being "Smurfs +1"?
Imperial Fists (jusat to use an example) can do everything UMs can, and then do their own stuff too? UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead of being mostly ignroed and then sneered at by people who are still butt hurt over a Matt Ward Codex being, *gasp* poorly written.

What? \imperial Fists, or any other chapter for that matter is not smurfs+1. How many detachments can UM use? 2? (anvil, demi) and fists get 3. Oh man that's so unfair. What about the salamander player that would like more than one special character? UM are fine.

And try to stay on topic please, this isn't going to devolve into an AOD thread, we have one of those.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Remember when BAs, IG, GKs and Necrons were the top of the 40k ladder in 5th? And how BA players used to tell Codex Marine players to just play BA, cause SM was bad and they should feel bad?

How the times have changed...

Space Wolves were top of the ladder by the time GK and Necrons came out. But yeah, BA weren't necessarily terrible in 5th, either.

BrianDavion wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
You can blame Ward for that. I can't imagine the other 8 Legions 'being flawed because they weren't the pinnacle of the Imperium, the ultramarines' would have gone well with collectors.

It's been toned down a bit, but never forgotten.

Eh, as stupid as Ward's (in)famous comments & rabid fanboy masturbation are, it's more so the fact that we had a wholly unnecessary supplement come out, that then gave absolutely nothing to the likes of the poor Templars and little to other under-represented 1st Founding Chapters such as the Ravenguard & Sallies... Meanwhile we also have Chaos Marines who are at the point of being pretty much an entirely pointless bad joke...

And despite all this, we had some Ultrasmurf whiners *****ing that the AoD supplement gave them nothing new.

proably cause it DIDN'T? maybe just MAYBE Ultramarine fans are sick of every other SM chapter being "Smurfs +1"?
Imperial Fists (jusat to use an example) can do everything UMs can, and then do their own stuff too? UM fans would like to see the chapter getting some love instead of being mostly ignroed and then sneered at by people who are still butt hurt over a Matt Ward Codex being, *gasp* poorly written.

Did you miss the part where the Ultramarines have what is quite possibly the best Psyker in the game?

This idea comes up every few years. I'll tell you why I don't like it... because it's not all about 'competitive power levels'.

I've played every BA codex and I had red marines (Flesh Eaters) prior to 2nd edition. The Blood Angels have enough character and rich background fluff alone to warrant a separate book, and there's no reason to compress all that into a summarized chapter in the SM book.

GW needs to be better about balance, period. Strictly talking rules, it might be possible to strip some flavor out of the BA list and make some items more generic but it's really not necessary.

Perhaps something like the 3rd edition codex would be a good compromise - it was built on the SM:Codex codex (it required it) but it remained separate and characterful.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Remember when BAs, IG, GKs and Necrons were the top of the 40k ladder in 5th? And how BA players used to tell Codex Marine players to just play BA, cause SM was bad and they should feel bad?

How the times have changed...

Uhh BA were 'on top of the ladder' in 5th for a cup of coffee, and as for telling Codex marines players to just play BA and feel bad - Yeah I don't think that actually happened, sorry - which makes feel like your wanting to see BA assimilated is more of a petty grievance rather than what is actually best for the players.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Remember when BAs, IG, GKs and Necrons were the top of the 40k ladder in 5th? And how BA players used to tell Codex Marine players to just play BA, cause SM was bad and they should feel bad?

How the times have changed...

SM weren't bad, they were just average. They should have already jumped ship to space puppies long before BA came out. Nothing in 5th made me feel as bad as GK, though. And BA were never on top, because both SW and IG were always better.

 Gunzhard wrote:
This idea comes up every few years. I'll tell you why I don't like it... because it's not all about 'competitive power levels'.

I've played every BA codex and I had red marines (Flesh Eaters) prior to 2nd edition. The Blood Angels have enough character and rich background fluff alone to warrant a separate book, and there's no reason to compress all that into a summarized chapter in the SM book.

GW needs to be better about balance, period. Strictly talking rules, it might be possible to strip some flavor out of the BA list and make some items more generic but it's really not necessary.

Every chapter has character and rich background fluff, yet 75% of them are in the normal marine dex. Of course it isn't "necessary" but it'd be better for BA players, because they'd get access to new units while chopping off their excess, unused ones, and it'd keep them balanced.

And yes, GW could fix this by just balancing all the books, but I'm sooner going to grow an extra 8 toes before that happens.

The Blood Angels have enough character and rich background fluff alone to warrant a separate book, and there's no reason to compress all that into a summarized chapter in the SM book.

Which of the other First Founding Chapters presently compressed are they more unique than? Raven Guard, White Scars? Salamanders?

Fluff and Lore can (and should be) explored and enjoyed - but I think the campaign books are a much better format for this, especially when they stick to the separate fluff and rule books in these packs.

If we were to be forever locked into the meta of the current BA codex, I'd agree with you.

However, before the current DA codex, you could have said the same thing about Dark Angels. All it would take is a great codex, like the DA one, to justify its uniqueness as a faction

There needs to be a great reason for some of the things that make BA unique to exist or be fielded, and some great formations to make that so. Unfortunately, being the last codex pre-super-formations, it may be a while before that happens.

On the other hand, the codex is no worse off than Grey Knights (though a little weaker), Imperial Guard, Orks, Dark Eldar etc., and at least you can always play most of your models using vanilla chapter tactics anyhow, so... other things need some love first, I think.

I do agree that out of BA/SW/GK/DA, the blood angels would be the most easily assimilated into the main codex, both in terms of models and rules.

Sorry, Talys, Dark Angels aren't unique enough either. They could be assimilated with relative ease. Nobody is using their flyers, so that mostly leaves just a couple of Terminator and Ravenwing to be brought in.

 Gunzhard wrote:

Uhh BA were 'on top of the ladder' in 5th for a cup of coffee, and as for telling Codex marines players to just play BA and feel bad - Yeah I don't think that actually happened,

Lol, I was living in TN at the time of 5th and BA being at/near the top of the power boards, and the resident TFG and BA player actually did do this on a number of occasions. Especially on the weekend when he happened to overhear me saying to another player that I was thinking about dusting off my Raven Guard army ideas, and came over to give me that "advice" completely unsolicited.

Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

Uhh BA were 'on top of the ladder' in 5th for a cup of coffee, and as for telling Codex marines players to just play BA and feel bad - Yeah I don't think that actually happened,

Lol, I was living in TN at the time of 5th and BA being at/near the top of the power boards, and the resident TFG and BA player actually did do this on a number of occasions. Especially on the weekend when he happened to overhear me saying to another player that I was thinking about dusting off my Raven Guard army ideas, and came over to give me that "advice" completely unsolicited.

Okay great. And Eldar players have been doing this since 1994.

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Ask any BT players around during 4th and 5th. I'm sure a very hefty few will be happy to elaborate. And maybe, just maybe, as a BA player for 15 years I don't want to see DC go. Maybe I think SG is one of the coolest units in the game and I don't want them gone either. Really the only BA unit I don't think anyone would miss is probably the Baal pred. At the very least you can bet your happy sack that they would gut the characters section that I know and love. If folded I can see Dante, Mephy and MAYBE Seth sticking around. I mean it's kind of a moot point at the moment because Tycho, Corbulo, Sanguinor, DC Tycho and Lemartes are all so godawful I've never seen any of the above on a table since our "update" dropped. However, that doesn't invalidate their existence due to some misguided sense of envy from xenos players or superiority from C:SM players.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

No but you'll barely get a mention compared to the super special ULTRAMARINES!

 Frozocrone wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

Way harder than that. When they lost their book they lost 3 characters, half a dozen pages of fluff and all but 1 of their unique units.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Ask any BT players around during 4th and 5th. I'm sure a very hefty few will be happy to elaborate. And maybe, just maybe, as a BA player for 15 years I don't want to see DC go. Maybe I think SG is one of the coolest units in the game and I don't want them gone either. Really the only BA unit I don't think anyone would miss is probably the Baal pred. At the very least you can bet your happy sack that they would gut the characters section that I know and love. If folded I can see Dante, Mephy and MAYBE Seth sticking around. I mean it's kind of a moot point at the moment because Tycho, Corbulo, Sanguinor, DC Tycho and Lemartes are all so godawful I've never seen any of the above on a table since our "update" dropped. However, that doesn't invalidate their existence due to some misguided sense of envy from xenos players or superiority from C:SM players.

If you read my posts, for the 4th time (at least) I said you would keep at least a few special units and unique characters from the previous dex. And since there isn't any 5th edition BT players here care to enlighten me? And as you said even yourself, this is a tabletop wargame, why would a unit exist if no one is putting it on the table? It's not like anyone liked that god awful Corbulo model anyways. What makes Blood Angels so special they need a seperate codex? (Keep in mind my notion for them to get the BT treatment and keep some units)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

Way harder than that. When they lost their book they lost 3 characters, half a dozen pages of fluff and all but 1 of their unique units.

And how many were shoehorned in there to justify a standalone codex? I don't think Castellan Bob deserves his own dataslate.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

did you really expect that they'd be able to take a crusader squad in a gladius?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Ask any BT players around during 4th and 5th. I'm sure a very hefty few will be happy to elaborate. And maybe, just maybe, as a BA player for 15 years I don't want to see DC go. Maybe I think SG is one of the coolest units in the game and I don't want them gone either. Really the only BA unit I don't think anyone would miss is probably the Baal pred. At the very least you can bet your happy sack that they would gut the characters section that I know and love. If folded I can see Dante, Mephy and MAYBE Seth sticking around. I mean it's kind of a moot point at the moment because Tycho, Corbulo, Sanguinor, DC Tycho and Lemartes are all so godawful I've never seen any of the above on a table since our "update" dropped. However, that doesn't invalidate their existence due to some misguided sense of envy from xenos players or superiority from C:SM players.

If you read my posts, for the 4th time (at least) I said you would keep at least a few special units and unique characters from the previous dex. And since there isn't any 5th edition BT players here care to enlighten me? And as you said even yourself, this is a tabletop wargame, why would a unit exist if no one is putting it on the table? It's not like anyone liked that god awful Corbulo model anyways. What makes Blood Angels so special they need a seperate codex? (Keep in mind my notion for them to get the BT treatment and keep some units)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

There's a reason they got absorbed into vanilla, and the same logic is being used with Blood Angels. I don't know what was in the BT codex because I wasn't playing then, but I can assume a few special rules, characters and units. Obviously they didn't sell well enough or warrant their own codex so they kept some of the more beloved characters and units in the vanilla dex.

Last I checked BT still had 3 special characters, and a special unit type. Now with AOD they've also got a plethora of formations they probably wouldn't have had otherwise.

I'd be happy as a BT player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Why don't you ask a Black Templars player? I'm sure they're very happy... NOT!

Actually some might be. The question (sadly) for BA/BT players is:

Is it better to keep your iconic units, lore, rules, etc and run an absolutely gak borderline unplayable dex or is it better to sacrifice all of those iconic units and rules so you can run with the big dogs (vanilla marines )? Don't know why they're mutually exclusive for us and not the Furries or the Heretically reassigned, but that's a question for Gee-dubs.

Since when does losing a dex sacrifice all your fluff and cool factor? It's all still there. Sanguinius won't be ripped out of the fluff and replaced by rowboat girlyman. And as I proposed, you would keep most of your units and rules, whether they be in the vanilla dex or supplement.

Happy with BT? They got shafted in the FAQ - can't take their special units in a Gladius.

Way harder than that. When they lost their book they lost 3 characters, half a dozen pages of fluff and all but 1 of their unique units.

And how many were shoehorned in there to justify a standalone codex? I don't think Castellan Bob deserves his own dataslate.

It's been a seriously long week so please forgive me if I don't recall the content of the thread on a gaming forum post for post. And keep SOME of their units? BT kept A unit and 1/3 of their SCs. Even then BA have a lot more in the way of content to shave and butcher than the BT did. Most of it going back to 2nd edition. I really don't understand why people are so hung up on this idea. All it does is piss people off and complicate things exponentially (not to mention knock a good chunk of potential sales away which is why it won't ever happen ) Like I said in an earlier post of my own, I'd be alright with a C:SM and an expansion book that contains the fluff, characters and units of all the snowflake chapters. Nobody deserves the BT treatment, especially armies with 2 or 3 times the content to lose.

I'm looks at the last standalone BT codex now... and I'm not seeing any special characters other than Grimaldus and Helbrecht.

The only things they lost were Sword Brethren (arguably Vanguard Veterans are them in all but name), Terminator Command Squads (because GW thinks that's now a DA-only thing) and the specials vows and other rules which made them special, which is the main issue most BT players have because they lost those cool rules and gained the worst or second worst (depending on who you ask Raven Guard are sometimes said to be the worst) Chapter Tactics.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm looks at the last standalone BT codex now... and I'm not seeing any special characters other than Grimaldus and Helbrecht.

The only things they lost were Sword Brethren (arguably Vanguard Veterans are them in all but name), Terminator Command Squads (because GW thinks that's now a DA-only thing) and the specials vows and other rules which made them special, which is the main issue most BT players have because they lost those cool rules and gained the worst or second worst (depending on who you ask Raven Guard are sometimes said to be the worst) Chapter Tactics.

My mistake. My buddy ran BT for a long time and he's got 5 named BT characters. Idk if they were GW limited releases or what, but regardless, it's pretty lame you had to lose that much when certain chapters have gotten multiple supplements on top of their toys in the vanilla dex. I don't understand at all why the assimilation crowd is cool with these but have to have BA and DA folded because "too many astartes books".

If I had it my way there wouldn't be supplements. Perhaps campaign books, but I don't see why GW can't just put it in the book off the get-go. However, I'm in GW's mindset and the only way BA would get extra special bits is if it was in a supplement.

niv-mizzet wrote:Really the most genius thing they could ever do is:

-Release space marine dex with all the basic units, formations, and chapter tactics for all the chapters, including the ones that used to be separate books. No named characters, no chapter specific traits, powers, relics or anything.

-Have a small softback supplement for each chapter with the named characters, special units, traits, powers, relics, and their own voltron-formation, as well as data sheets for formations that are unique to their chapter. (Like any involving death company for BA, for example.)

-printin' dat money.

This is what I would do, if done well and properly I don't think people would mind. Actually scratch that, I would have the basic codex (along with all the other factions) available free online like warscrolls. Then all the formations, decurion detachments and added stuff would be in supplements or campaign books.

You can field a basic marine army of any flavour from the base rules, but you want to run Calgar at the head of a Gladius? Well you need to buy the Warriors of Macragge supplement. You want to run Tycho at the head of the blood Angels Gladius thingy, then get the Baal supplement and so on. I'd be more than happy with that.

Same with the Tau, Eldar etc. The free online codex can build you the basic CAD, with your basic units. The supplements have the formations, special characters and formations.

insaniak wrote:
They did this in 3rd edition. It was fairly universally reviled.

People hated having to buy multiple books to play a single army.

People already do this now. Look at things like the Cadia supplement and Angels of Death.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm looks at the last standalone BT codex now... and I'm not seeing any special characters other than Grimaldus and Helbrecht.

The only things they lost were Sword Brethren (arguably Vanguard Veterans are them in all but name), Terminator Command Squads (because GW thinks that's now a DA-only thing) and the specials vows and other rules which made them special, which is the main issue most BT players have because they lost those cool rules and gained the worst or second worst (depending on who you ask Raven Guard are sometimes said to be the worst) Chapter Tactics.

My mistake. My buddy ran BT for a long time and he's got 5 named BT characters. Idk if they were GW limited releases or what, but regardless, it's pretty lame you had to lose that much when certain chapters have gotten multiple supplements on top of their toys in the vanilla dex. I don't understand at all why the assimilation crowd is cool with these but have to have BA and DA folded because "too many astartes books".

what chapters have gotten multiple supplements? keep in mind that everything in sentinals of terra etc is pretty much moved into angels of death

What blows my mind is that GW apparently thought that releasing a supplement for the 3rd company of the Imperial Fists was more important than a Black Templars supplement. I mean, it's one company in one of the most Codex-adherent Chapters in the fluff, why is that supplement-worthy? Salamanders I could've understood, or any of the other non-UM Chapters in the Codex, but IF 3rd company?!

Most BA/Da units could be in the main codex without increasing the page count.
Give honour guard and command squads option for bikes/jump packs/t-armour
Give vanguard the option for bikes
Give ironclads curiosity weapon options
Librarian dreads added to venture dread option
Add chief Librarian and Chaplain Lord upgrades
Mixed terminator weapons + plasma cannons.
Add Ball weapons to the standard predator

That leaves only special characters, deaths in Knights and death company (Inc dreads) as unique units like template squads.

The heavy lands peelers could easily be include which then only really leaves the Da flyers and BA priest floating about.

So maybe have a standard book with no special units/characters and the basic formation. Then have an updated angels of death boom with all the unique stuff.

ScarVet101 wrote:
Most BA/Da units could be in the main codex without increasing the page count.
Give honour guard and command squads option for bikes/jump packs/t-armour
Give vanguard the option for bikes
Give ironclads curiosity weapon options
Librarian dreads added to venture dread option
Add chief Librarian and Chaplain Lord upgrades
Mixed terminator weapons + plasma cannons.
Add Ball weapons to the standard predator

That leaves only special characters, deaths in Knights and death company (Inc dreads) as unique units like template squads.

The heavy lands peelers could easily be include which then only really leaves the Da flyers and BA priest floating about.

So maybe have a standard book with no special units/characters and the basic formation. Then have an updated angels of death boom with all the unique stuff.

I support this, but just to be devil's advocate, would this not just buff marines more by giving EVERYONE what only BA nad DA had? Or are you saying their chapter tactics would lock it away?

Tbh I dunno why they didn't simply have supplement codexes like they did for BA back in third.

As a mostly codex adherent chapter they should get the majority of the vanilla codex, but they do have enough for a mini supplement codex.

Okay it's a pain having two books, but if they return the supplements having a much cheaper price I dunno if it would really be a massive issue. Or maybe have a space marine offer, buy the codex and a get started BA box, get the supplement free?

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

ScarVet101 wrote:
Most BA/Da units could be in the main codex without increasing the page count.
Give honour guard and command squads option for bikes/jump packs/t-armour
Give vanguard the option for bikes
Give ironclads curiosity weapon options
Librarian dreads added to venture dread option
Add chief Librarian and Chaplain Lord upgrades
Mixed terminator weapons + plasma cannons.
Add Ball weapons to the standard predator

That leaves only special characters, deaths in Knights and death company (Inc dreads) as unique units like template squads.

The heavy lands peelers could easily be include which then only really leaves the Da flyers and BA priest floating about.

So maybe have a standard book with no special units/characters and the basic formation. Then have an updated angels of death boom with all the unique stuff.

I support this, but just to be devil's advocate, would this not just buff marines more by giving EVERYONE what only BA nad DA had? Or are you saying their chapter tactics would lock it away?

It probably needs some tweaks, personally I'm happy with seperate Terminator and Assault terminator units so that was more to show how Deathwing can be slotted straight in. It would also only be the weapons, not the speed from Baal predators (maybe a BA only vehicle upgrade)
Honour Guard & command squads should probably be linked to a character eg you can only have terminator honour guard if there is a Chapter master in terminator armour too. Then Venguard on bikes would fit for elite white scars.

The other items would need to be balanced but they should be workable. Any suggested amendments?

A chief librarian and supreme chaplain upgrades would probably be, say, 40 points and they get an extra initiative, WS, BS, and wound? And a chief lib could pay another 25 points for ML3, or he comes stock with it. Iron clad could instead by siege claw things resembling blood talons, which confer shred? Rampage if BA? It's hard to implement pre-existing rules without bloating the SM codex and still keep their flavour.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

ScarVet101 wrote:
Most BA/Da units could be in the main codex without increasing the page count.
Give honour guard and command squads option for bikes/jump packs/t-armour
Give vanguard the option for bikes
Give ironclads curiosity weapon options
Librarian dreads added to venture dread option
Add chief Librarian and Chaplain Lord upgrades
Mixed terminator weapons + plasma cannons.
Add Ball weapons to the standard predator

That leaves only special characters, deaths in Knights and death company (Inc dreads) as unique units like template squads.

The heavy lands peelers could easily be include which then only really leaves the Da flyers and BA priest floating about.

So maybe have a standard book with no special units/characters and the basic formation. Then have an updated angels of death boom with all the unique stuff.

I support this, but just to be devil's advocate, would this not just buff marines more by giving EVERYONE what only BA nad DA had? Or are you saying their chapter tactics would lock it away?

Not necessarily. One could go the Chaos 3.5 route and have a small section for each of the notable chapters, that in few pages details chapter traits, restrictions, gimmicks and special characters. If it could be done in 2004, I don't why it can't be done now.

You could also split all the chapter specific stuff out into a new "Angels of Death" book - Fluff, special characters, units and Formations.

You could actual take 30+ pages out of the current codex doing this which is plenty of room for the few units which can't just be merged into others. It also gives room for other chapters to get a special unit.

Smells like click bait.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

I support this, but just to be devil's advocate, would this not just buff marines more by giving EVERYONE what only BA nad DA had? Or are you saying their chapter tactics would lock it away?

Chapter Tactics and Chapter-specific formations should be more than sufficient to differentiate the different flavours of marines. They don't need to all have access to different dreadnought weapons.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
I've read the BA codex a few times, and from what I've seen there is nothing really new compared to the vanilla marine dex. You've got sanguinary guard, death co. dread and troops, lib dread, sanguinary priest and furioso. Not counting special characters.

Now before you start beating me over the head that I'm evil for suggesting that someones models become obsolete, but hear me out.

The BA codex doesn't have much going for it, it has their angry dreads etc. But I don't see how this couldn't be replicated in the vanilla dex by just giving them special rules for being BA or just throwing them in the dumpster. The Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, arguably the most memorable units, and dante would stay in there as HQ choices and elite choices, think what happened to Black Templars.

This would boost the BA's power level and make them simpler. (The less books the better, look at cult mech and skitarii) They'd get centurions, stormtalons, etc. etc.

But what about the other marine dexes, I hear you say!

Space Wolves are vastly different, I'd die if I saw a grey hunter not holding a chainsword (i.e. wulfen, ccw options, T cav, different tactics) Grey Knights aren't even in the same postal code with brotherhood of psykers, dark angels could arguably be in the same boat actually, just give them skilled rider or something.

Dakka's input?

BTW, this is very much a fledgling idea, I just came up with it and though I'd throw it up on the boards

Blood Angel Chapter Tactics:

All rhino chassis models gain "Fast."

Red Thirst: roll a d6 for every unit at the beginning of the game, if a 1 is rolled they gain Rage.

"Black Rage" upgrade gives a model Rage, Furious Charge and Fearless. Can be given to any Vanguard Veteran squad or Dreadnought unit.

Honor Guard can take jump packs (mutually exclusive with bikes, etc). (Sanguinary Guard)

Predators can be upgraded to Baal predators.

Hand-flamers, etc, can just be folded into the main armory. An extra entry for the special dreadnought CCW. Librarian/ Chaplain Dreads should be introduced into the Codex proper.

For Dark Angels Chapter Tactics:

Bikes re-roll jink saves, get furious charge and Rending on the charge (their uber hammers).

Terminators deep-strike with Drop Pod Assault. Termi squads can buy a plasma cannon/ maces of redemption and your command squad can be upgraded to have terminator armor.

Stubborn, over-watch at BS2 unless you jinked.

Migrate the Land Speeder. Migrate the fighter.

The differences pretty much end there. The only other special thing about either army is names of units, and a handful of pieces of wargear that are superficially special (plasma talons are just plasma guns, make their hammers a unit-wide rule, the "command" variant is easily just an upgrade that was made into a unit for bloating purposes).

Space Wolves, on the other hand, do have a wide variety of model differences, but could also easily be brought into the fold of C:SM.

Acute Senses, Counter-attack.

Tactical Squads get CCW and replace the "Choose a Heavy Weapon" with "Choose a Special Weapon" if 10-man.

Devastators get Split-fire.

Vanguard Veterans can be upgraded to Thunderwolf Cav (+1 S, +1T, +1A, cavalry). Mutually exclusive with jetpacks.

Special entry for Dreadnought shield/ axe. Migrate blood claws, jump packs/ bikes are upgrades.

Migrate wulfen, their flyer and their frost guns. Just re-roll their melee weapons into generic weapons (they're just fancy looking :/).

It is doable. But the Space Wolf version requires more unique special rule distribution and toning down of chapter-specific upgrades, otherwise their entry will be massive as far as unique wargear is concerned. One could easily just give their power weapons/ claws/ thunder hammers the frosty special rule as an optional upgrade for 10 points (+1S, AP2 if not already AP2 for PW) (+1S, Rending for LC) (Toughness Test or removed from game for TH). Wolf Pelts, etc, will probably get toned down even further and become isolated relics.

It is possible but is more finnicky. Dark Angels are slightly less finnicky. But Blood Angels are by far the easiest swap-over.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, BA and DA have an outstanding history different from the vanilla chapters. It would not be wise to subsume them into the vanilla codex. But game-wise GW should take more care of their codices.

Not really. Mechanically, their power armoured squads follow the same format as everyone else and their story is the same as all other loyalist chapter in broad strokes- killing xenos and mutants and heretics.
They certainly deserve separate black library novels.

Similarly, Space Wolves have different names for their assault squads, they are still assault squads. Their Devastator squads are the same as loyalists. Their Hunter squads are the same as tactical squads.
The differences can be summarised on the bottom of a page in C:SM

Chapter Tactics: Space Wolves
Space wolves like to call their weapons different things. Substitute 'Frost' and 'Wolf' liberally anywhere you see 'power' or 'storm' terminology- a Terminator Sergeant may carry a Wolf-sword and Frost-bolter for example. No in-game effect.

- An Assault squad with Chapter tactics: Space Wolves have WS 3 and BS 3, but have rage. Devastators with Chapter tactics: Space Wolves have split fire and Ld 9. Tactical squads with Chapter tactics: Space Wolves.... may purchase chainswords at 2ppm.

Everything else, fold back into the codex. Terminator sergeants can be taken by wolves and IH again, Tacticals can take 2 specials at 10.
Air wolves become styled storm ravens, frost cannons(!) are just lascannons.

 Kraytirous wrote:
Space Wolves, on the other hand, do have a wide variety of model differences, but could also easily be brought into the fold of C:SM.

Acute Senses, Counter-attack.

Tactical Squads get CCW and replace the "Choose a Heavy Weapon" with "Choose a Special Weapon" if 10-man.

Devastators get Split-fire.

Vanguard Veterans can be upgraded to Thunderwolf Cav (+1 S, +1T, +1A, cavalry). Mutually exclusive with jetpacks.

Special entry for Dreadnought shield/ axe. Migrate blood claws, jump packs/ bikes are upgrades.

Migrate wulfen, their flyer and their frost guns. Just re-roll their melee weapons into generic weapons (they're just fancy looking :/).

It is doable. But the Space Wolf version requires more unique special rule distribution and toning down of chapter-specific upgrades, otherwise their entry will be massive as far as unique wargear is concerned. One could easily just give their power weapons/ claws/ thunder hammers the frosty special rule as an optional upgrade for 10 points (+1S, AP2 if not already AP2 for PW) (+1S, Rending for LC) (Toughness Test or removed from game for TH). Wolf Pelts, etc, will probably get toned down even further and become isolated relics.

It is possible but is more finnicky. Dark Angels are slightly less finnicky. But Blood Angels are by far the easiest swap-over.

The problem with the Space Wolves is that their stat lines are different so the "Space Wolves chapter tactics" would require a lot of individual entry changes that just starts to get bloated and sloppy. The Wolves are not Codex Astartes compliant and should be separated. Blood Claws for example have rage, lower WS/BS, cheaper, and can be in bigger unit size which would be a wordy entry change for assault marines and bikes (and normalizing them to the same stats as vanilla assault marines would be a terrible idea). Their melee weapons are also different stats (frost axe being 1 higher strength and 2H for example), particularly the wolf claws which have higher strength which makes them way better than lightning claws. I just don't see how Space Wolves can be rolled into C:SM without it being a train wreck of modifiers and stat line overrides without losing the feel of the Space Wolves codex.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
What blows my mind is that GW apparently thought that releasing a supplement for the 3rd company of the Imperial Fists was more important than a Black Templars supplement. I mean, it's one company in one of the most Codex-adherent Chapters in the fluff, why is that supplement-worthy? Salamanders I could've understood, or any of the other non-UM Chapters in the Codex, but IF 3rd company?!

I agree. on the other hand, IFs special rules where in part allowing for greater use of centurions, so my guess is they did it because they really wanted to push centurion mini sales

ScarVet101 wrote:You could also split all the chapter specific stuff out into a new "Angels of Death" book - Fluff, special characters, units and Formations.

You could actual take 30+ pages out of the current codex doing this which is plenty of room for the few units which can't just be merged into others. It also gives room for other chapters to get a special unit.

Yeah, plenty have people have suggested that, so maybe it's the best route to go...

Red Marine wrote:Smells like click bait.

Is that a Blood Angel on your profile?

Kraytirous wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
I've read the BA codex a few times, and from what I've seen there is nothing really new compared to the vanilla marine dex. You've got sanguinary guard, death co. dread and troops, lib dread, sanguinary priest and furioso. Not counting special characters.

Now before you start beating me over the head that I'm evil for suggesting that someones models become obsolete, but hear me out.

The BA codex doesn't have much going for it, it has their angry dreads etc. But I don't see how this couldn't be replicated in the vanilla dex by just giving them special rules for being BA or just throwing them in the dumpster. The Sanguinary Guard and Death Company, arguably the most memorable units, and dante would stay in there as HQ choices and elite choices, think what happened to Black Templars.

This would boost the BA's power level and make them simpler. (The less books the better, look at cult mech and skitarii) They'd get centurions, stormtalons, etc. etc.

But what about the other marine dexes, I hear you say!

Space Wolves are vastly different, I'd die if I saw a grey hunter not holding a chainsword (i.e. wulfen, ccw options, T cav, different tactics) Grey Knights aren't even in the same postal code with brotherhood of psykers, dark angels could arguably be in the same boat actually, just give them skilled rider or something.

Dakka's input?

BTW, this is very much a fledgling idea, I just came up with it and though I'd throw it up on the boards

Blood Angel Chapter Tactics:

All rhino chassis models gain "Fast."

Red Thirst: roll a d6 for every unit at the beginning of the game, if a 1 is rolled they gain Rage.

"Black Rage" upgrade gives a model Rage, Furious Charge and Fearless. Can be given to any Vanguard Veteran squad or Dreadnought unit.

Honor Guard can take jump packs (mutually exclusive with bikes, etc). (Sanguinary Guard)

Predators can be upgraded to Baal predators.

Hand-flamers, etc, can just be folded into the main armory. An extra entry for the special dreadnought CCW. Librarian/ Chaplain Dreads should be introduced into the Codex proper.

For Dark Angels Chapter Tactics:

Bikes re-roll jink saves, get furious charge and Rending on the charge (their uber hammers).

Terminators deep-strike with Drop Pod Assault. Termi squads can buy a plasma cannon/ maces of redemption and your command squad can be upgraded to have terminator armor.

Stubborn, over-watch at BS2 unless you jinked.

Migrate the Land Speeder. Migrate the fighter.

The differences pretty much end there. The only other special thing about either army is names of units, and a handful of pieces of wargear that are superficially special (plasma talons are just plasma guns, make their hammers a unit-wide rule, the "command" variant is easily just an upgrade that was made into a unit for bloating purposes).

Space Wolves, on the other hand, do have a wide variety of model differences, but could also easily be brought into the fold of C:SM.

Acute Senses, Counter-attack.

Tactical Squads get CCW and replace the "Choose a Heavy Weapon" with "Choose a Special Weapon" if 10-man.

Devastators get Split-fire.

Vanguard Veterans can be upgraded to Thunderwolf Cav (+1 S, +1T, +1A, cavalry). Mutually exclusive with jetpacks.

Special entry for Dreadnought shield/ axe. Migrate blood claws, jump packs/ bikes are upgrades.

Migrate wulfen, their flyer and their frost guns. Just re-roll their melee weapons into generic weapons (they're just fancy looking :/).

It is doable. But the Space Wolf version requires more unique special rule distribution and toning down of chapter-specific upgrades, otherwise their entry will be massive as far as unique wargear is concerned. One could easily just give their power weapons/ claws/ thunder hammers the frosty special rule as an optional upgrade for 10 points (+1S, AP2 if not already AP2 for PW) (+1S, Rending for LC) (Toughness Test or removed from game for TH). Wolf Pelts, etc, will probably get toned down even further and become isolated relics.

It is possible but is more finnicky. Dark Angels are slightly less finnicky. But Blood Angels are by far the easiest swap-over.

Yeah, that was my problem. Wolves just have too many rules and units to assimilate.

Vankraken wrote:

 Kraytirous wrote:
Space Wolves, on the other hand, do have a wide variety of model differences, but could also easily be brought into the fold of C:SM.

Acute Senses, Counter-attack.

Tactical Squads get CCW and replace the "Choose a Heavy Weapon" with "Choose a Special Weapon" if 10-man.

Devastators get Split-fire.

Vanguard Veterans can be upgraded to Thunderwolf Cav (+1 S, +1T, +1A, cavalry). Mutually exclusive with jetpacks.

Special entry for Dreadnought shield/ axe. Migrate blood claws, jump packs/ bikes are upgrades.

Migrate wulfen, their flyer and their frost guns. Just re-roll their melee weapons into generic weapons (they're just fancy looking :/).

It is doable. But the Space Wolf version requires more unique special rule distribution and toning down of chapter-specific upgrades, otherwise their entry will be massive as far as unique wargear is concerned. One could easily just give their power weapons/ claws/ thunder hammers the frosty special rule as an optional upgrade for 10 points (+1S, AP2 if not already AP2 for PW) (+1S, Rending for LC) (Toughness Test or removed from game for TH). Wolf Pelts, etc, will probably get toned down even further and become isolated relics.

It is possible but is more finnicky. Dark Angels are slightly less finnicky. But Blood Angels are by far the easiest swap-over.

The problem with the Space Wolves is that their stat lines are different so the "Space Wolves chapter tactics" would require a lot of individual entry changes that just starts to get bloated and sloppy. The Wolves are not Codex Astartes compliant and should be separated. Blood Claws for example have rage, lower WS/BS, cheaper, and can be in bigger unit size which would be a wordy entry change for assault marines and bikes (and normalizing them to the same stats as vanilla assault marines would be a terrible idea). Their melee weapons are also different stats (frost axe being 1 higher strength and 2H for example), particularly the wolf claws which have higher strength which makes them way better than lightning claws. I just don't see how Space Wolves can be rolled into C:SM without it being a train wreck of modifiers and stat line overrides without losing the feel of the Space Wolves codex.

Yeah, the changes are pretty huge. That's why I say keep them in their own dex.

 Vankraken wrote:
Blood Claws for example have rage, lower WS/BS, cheaper, and can be in bigger unit size which would be a wordy entry change for assault marines and bikes (and normalizing them to the same stats as vanilla assault marines would be a terrible idea).

Once upon a time Blood Claws were in squads of 10 like everyone else... and with regular Marine scouts now being WS/BS4, there's no real reason for Blood Claws (who are essentially Scouts in power armour) to have a lower BS or WS. They were only lower because Scouts were.

Their melee weapons are also different stats (frost axe being 1 higher strength and 2H for example), particularly the wolf claws which have higher strength which makes them way better than lightning claws.

None of which are really required, or which could be rolled into a form of generic 'relic' weapon available to everyone.

I don't see how keeping them separate is a problem, just update them when they need it. I'm really at a point where I just want to be able to point at a book and say, "that has all the rules for X army in it I need." As opposed to the rules being spread across 4 codexes, 8 white dwarfs, and two forge world books We're back to the point where you have to carry around a stack of books just to run a standard army. I seem to remember that they at least use to gather all the white dwarf rules in the chapter approved books at the end of a year to cut back on the bulk.

If that means every different chapter gets a book, fine, just so long as I can look at my opponents army and know all the rules for everything he/she is using is sitting in front of them in one, maybe two source books. When 6th edition started doing supplements I thought it was great. One book has all the basics while the supplement has the flavor. Nothing wrong with that.

Make a TRULY generic space marine codex. Then pump out supplements like candy to cover the unique ones with special units, and the special rules. It has the added benefit of keeping the core units all the same across the board, and letting GW sell more books to us (in the form of supplements, not really a benefit to us, but hey it keeps them happy).

While I personally love the campaign books, for the fluff they add, I found the addition of rules in them confusing, and still do, as people keep asking if they can use the things out of them for something other than what I thought they were written for.

I thought the raven guard stuff was raven guard, and I thought the white scars stuff was white scars. I believe some of the formations out of those books can be used by other chapters, and that starts to make things unnecessarily convoluted.

TLDR They can keep their separate books if they want them. Just please bring the rules for armies back into a few easy to find sources…

I am generally in favor of reducing the number of Space Marine Codices. My ideal number would be 2: Chaos and Loyalist.

But you probably should take that with a grain of salt, as I'm a bit grumpy over the amount of attention the Space Marines get compared to the other factions.

 Pouncey wrote:
I am generally in favor of reducing the number of Space Marine Codices. My ideal number would be 2: Chaos and Loyalist.

I'm going to have to disagree with this in the sense that these two core codeces (one for Chaos, one for the Loyalists) are the only nooks they're going to need.

I'm in the boat where there's a core Space Marines Codex (which would include a whole bunch of generic Chapter Tactics, Generic Relics, Generic Warlord Traits, Generic Everything haha), and then have supplements for all the big Chapters such as Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, Ultramarines, White Scars, etc etc. Similar sort of thing for Chaos as well: Core Codex for Chaos with supplements for either all four Chaos Gods, all nine Traitor Legions, or something along those lines. I know people get all whingy about buying more than one book, but lets be honest: With the current system you have to have at least two (Rules + Your Army's Codex), and a good working knowledge of other codeces goes a long way.

 Pouncey wrote:
But you probably should take that with a grain of salt, as I'm a bit grumpy over the amount of attention the Space Marines get compared to the other factions.

As a Space Marine player, I feel the same sentiment: Space Marines get too much attention.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I am generally in favor of reducing the number of Space Marine Codices. My ideal number would be 2: Chaos and Loyalist.

I'm going to have to disagree with this in the sense that these two core codeces (one for Chaos, one for the Loyalists) are the only nooks they're going to need.

I'm in the boat where there's a core Space Marines Codex (which would include a whole bunch of generic Chapter Tactics, Generic Relics, Generic Warlord Traits, Generic Everything haha), and then have supplements for all the big Chapters such as Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars, Ultramarines, White Scars, etc etc. Similar sort of thing for Chaos as well: Core Codex for Chaos with supplements for either all four Chaos Gods, all nine Traitor Legions, or something along those lines. I know people get all whingy about buying more than one book, but lets be honest: With the current system you have to have at least two (Rules + Your Army's Codex), and a good working knowledge of other codeces goes a long way.

 Pouncey wrote:
But you probably should take that with a grain of salt, as I'm a bit grumpy over the amount of attention the Space Marines get compared to the other factions.

As a Space Marine player, I feel the same sentiment: Space Marines get too much attention.

I don't think my preferred army even has any supplements... or a wide enough variety of lore to make supplements possible without a huge amount of "pulling out of thin air" of lore to justify those supplements' creation.

 insaniak wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Blood Claws for example have rage, lower WS/BS, cheaper, and can be in bigger unit size which would be a wordy entry change for assault marines and bikes (and normalizing them to the same stats as vanilla assault marines would be a terrible idea).

Once upon a time Blood Claws were in squads of 10 like everyone else... and with regular Marine scouts now being WS/BS4, there's no real reason for Blood Claws (who are essentially Scouts in power armour) to have a lower BS or WS. They were only lower because Scouts were.

The appealing thing about Blood Claws currently is that they have rage and are cheaper while still retaining their power armor. They work because of how cheap they are and normalizing them to vanilla stat line would just make them worse and boring. Same for Skyclaws who are as cheap as tac marines but have jump packs. The trade off between WS and points cost + rage makes them play different than vanilla assault marines while it also differentiates their battlefield role more from TWC, Grey Hunters, and Wolf Guard.

 insaniak wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Their melee weapons are also different stats (frost axe being 1 higher strength and 2H for example), particularly the wolf claws which have higher strength which makes them way better than lightning claws.

None of which are really required, or which could be rolled into a form of generic 'relic' weapon available to everyone.

Sure it isn't required but it is a character aspect of the codex which makes space wolves feel different than their MEQ brethren. While I don't recall ever seeing a Frost Axe/Sword being used in recent history but Wolf Claws see a lot of use unlike lightning claws which aren't nearly as common. Again it comes down to the argument that removing these things takes away that bit of flavor to the army and if your try to preserve those elements if they were to be rolled into C:SM then it would make the SW chapter tactics turn into a massive change log which goes well beyond the likes of Iron Hands or Raven Guard chapter tactics.

All the special rules and units for ALL the different marine flavours could be covered in a single codex.

Doesnt mean it will

I'm cool with multiple codices. I like how marines have different flavours, often different enough to warrant a completely separate book.

If I'm going to be playing against marines 90% of the time, they should at least be different.

 Pouncey wrote:
I don't think my preferred army even has any supplements... or a wide enough variety of lore to make supplements possible without a huge amount of "pulling out of thin air" of lore to justify those supplements' creation.

In that case, a supplement that groups sub-factions that don't necessarily have enough material to warrant their own supplement but aren't generic sub-factions either is in order.

 Vankraken wrote:

Sure it isn't required but it is a character aspect of the codex which makes space wolves feel different than their MEQ brethren.

What makes wolves feel different is being covered in wolf bling and their organisation. They don't have any equipment that should be unique to them- excepting perhaps dogsleds.

They've had +1 power swords since 3rd ed and there's never been an adequate examination of why they are necessary. They seem like an excuse for Wolves to carry chainswords/axes (barbaric!) but still cut through armour.

The fluff behind Frost-Blades is at least consistent with Gore-Child- exotic space monsters have teeth that cut better than the usual adamantium/carbon alloy, you kill the monster and use its teeth in a sword.
However Gore Child's existence shows that such monsters aren't unique to Fenris. Death-Worlds exist throughout the galaxy and are filled with such lethal creatures. Lots of Chapters recruit from death-worlds- its noted that death-worlders are preferable for many chapters.

The newer stuff like Wolf Claws doesn't have any rationale beyond 'we wolfed it up'. They put runes on it, so it hits harder? That shouldn't work unless they are Dwarves, Eldar or Chaos, or perhaps sisters.

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm cool with multiple codices. I like how marines have different flavours, often different enough to warrant a completely separate book.

If I'm going to be playing against marines 90% of the time, they should at least be different.

Shame it does not currently apply to any other faction?

Imperial Guard have much more diversity than Marines
Chaos Marines - both former Legions and newer renegades
Eldar - Craftworlds fight in their own way.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I don't think my preferred army even has any supplements... or a wide enough variety of lore to make supplements possible without a huge amount of "pulling out of thin air" of lore to justify those supplements' creation.

In that case, a supplement that groups sub-factions that don't necessarily have enough material to warrant their own supplement but aren't generic sub-factions either is in order.

Sisters of Battle.

To my knowledge, no lore has set apart any one Order's preferred method of waging war distinctly apart from any other's.

I guess there's the various non-combat Orders like the Hospitallers. Not sure how you'd go about making an effective combat force out of power armored battlefield surgeons and torturers, but I'm sure it would be annoying as feth to try to kill despite the army-wide T3.

IMO there are too many Imperial armies.

Cptn_Cronssant wrote:
IMO there are too many Imperial armies.

Yeah, at one point like half the armies in the game were IoM.

Currently there are... :: checks :: 23 armies.

Of those... :: checks :: 13 are IoM.

And 6 armies are various Space Marine flavors, including Chaos Space Marines.

I didn't bother checking the dozens upon dozens of supplements, just going by the Army sections on GW's webstore.

So yeah, it's still the case then. Great. Way to go with the the Terran-centricism, GW, it's certainly a refreshing take on science fiction that has not been done far too many times...

Gw focuses on what sells, and the imperium sells.

 Pouncey wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I don't think my preferred army even has any supplements... or a wide enough variety of lore to make supplements possible without a huge amount of "pulling out of thin air" of lore to justify those supplements' creation.

In that case, a supplement that groups sub-factions that don't necessarily have enough material to warrant their own supplement but aren't generic sub-factions either is in order.

Sisters of Battle.

To my knowledge, no lore has set apart any one Order's preferred method of waging war distinctly apart from any other's.

I guess there's the various non-combat Orders like the Hospitallers. Not sure how you'd go about making an effective combat force out of power armored battlefield surgeons and torturers, but I'm sure it would be annoying as feth to try to kill despite the army-wide T3.

My apologies, I didn't phrase what I mean clearly enough. I mean one codex for Loyalist Marines. My bad.

In the case of the Inquisition, they're Ordos, and their Chamber Militant, I could see that being separated into 3 - 4 codeces:

(1) The Inquisition
(2) Sisters of Battle
(3) Grey Knights
(4) Death Watch

The Death Watch and the Grey Knights could potentially be rolled into the whole "Core Loyalist Marines Codex w/ Supplements" concept, but the Grey Knights could just as easily warrant the maintaining of their own codex. The Sisters of Battle should have their own codex.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Gw focuses on what sells, and the imperium sells.

But that could also be seen as a cycle of sorts. The Space Marine sell well because GW put a lot into them - lots of models, lots of new rules, lots of marketing, etc etc etc, then once they keep selling well, they probably think something along the lines of "Imperium/Space Marines are selling well. Let's keep focusing on them."

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm cool with multiple codices. I like how marines have different flavours, often different enough to warrant a completely separate book.

If I'm going to be playing against marines 90% of the time, they should at least be different.

Shame it does not currently apply to any other faction?

Imperial Guard have much more diversity than Marines
Chaos Marines - both former Legions and newer renegades
Eldar - Craftworlds fight in their own way.

If any faction deserves to have a gakload of unique supplements and extra codices entirely, it's the Imperial Guard.

They're recruited from hundreds of thousands of different planets, each of which is allowed to train and equip them as they see fit so long as they meet the fairly-loose Imperial Guard standards. Huge potential for variety. You name a strategy, there's probably hundreds of worlds whose Regiments specialize in it.

There's, what, a thousand different Loyalist Chapters? With less than a dozen Loyalist Legions to draw their methods from as the source of their Gene-seed? And most of which are Codex-adherent regardless of the Legion they came from?

 IllumiNini wrote:


(1) The Inquisition
(2) Sisters of Battle
(3) Grey Knights
(4) Death Watch

The Death Watch and the Grey Knights could potentially be rolled into the whole "Core Loyalist Marines Codex w/ Supplements" concept, but the Grey Knights could just as easily warrant the maintaining of their own codex. The Sisters of Battle should have their own codex.

IMO, I'd rather see a solid "Inquisition" book, or maybe 2, where GK and Death Watch become more like Harlequins or Skitarii: a "supplement" to existing armies, designed to be best used as reinforcements to an existing force rather than a stand alone army.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:


(1) The Inquisition
(2) Sisters of Battle
(3) Grey Knights
(4) Death Watch

The Death Watch and the Grey Knights could potentially be rolled into the whole "Core Loyalist Marines Codex w/ Supplements" concept, but the Grey Knights could just as easily warrant the maintaining of their own codex. The Sisters of Battle should have their own codex.

IMO, I'd rather see a solid "Inquisition" book, or maybe 2, where GK and Death Watch become more like Harlequins or Skitarii: a "supplement" to existing armies, designed to be best used as reinforcements to an existing force rather than a stand alone army.

Deathwatch could honestly be part of either a core Inquisition Codex or a supplement to a generic Loyalist Marine Codex (or even part of the generic Loyalist Marine Codex). Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights both need at least a supplement, but could maintain their own codex. So there's at least three: (1) The Inquisition; (2) Sisters of Battle; and (3) Grey Knights. Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle are too unique and have too much content to be rolled into a single Inquisition book (not to mention the amount of lore that would be in an Inquisition codex if both factions were included).

IllumiNini wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
I don't think my preferred army even has any supplements... or a wide enough variety of lore to make supplements possible without a huge amount of "pulling out of thin air" of lore to justify those supplements' creation.

In that case, a supplement that groups sub-factions that don't necessarily have enough material to warrant their own supplement but aren't generic sub-factions either is in order.

Sisters of Battle.

To my knowledge, no lore has set apart any one Order's preferred method of waging war distinctly apart from any other's.

I guess there's the various non-combat Orders like the Hospitallers. Not sure how you'd go about making an effective combat force out of power armored battlefield surgeons and torturers, but I'm sure it would be annoying as feth to try to kill despite the army-wide T3.

My apologies, I didn't phrase what I mean clearly enough. I mean one codex for Loyalist Marines. My bad.

In the case of the Inquisition, they're Ordos, and their Chamber Militant, I could see that being separated into 3 - 4 codeces:

(1) The Inquisition
(2) Sisters of Battle
(3) Grey Knights
(4) Death Watch

The Death Watch and the Grey Knights could potentially be rolled into the whole "Core Loyalist Marines Codex w/ Supplements" concept, but the Grey Knights could just as easily warrant the maintaining of their own codex. The Sisters of Battle should have their own codex.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
Gw focuses on what sells, and the imperium sells.

But that could also be seen as a cycle of sorts. The Space Marine sell well because GW put a lot into them - lots of models, lots of new rules, lots of marketing, etc etc etc, then once they keep selling well, they probably think something along the lines of "Imperium/Space Marines are selling well. Let's keep focusing on them."

Yeah, it is a bit of a vicious circle, but even if they put the same amount of work into, say, Orks, would they make as much money? As much as it is the community using the newer stuff, and stuff that will never be underpowered, I have a feeling some people would still want their marines more just because that's what appeals to them. Some people still make choices based on what's cool, and a large part of the customer base think that's marines.

tl;dr Orks aren't as cool.

Pouncey wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
I'm cool with multiple codices. I like how marines have different flavours, often different enough to warrant a completely separate book.

If I'm going to be playing against marines 90% of the time, they should at least be different.

Shame it does not currently apply to any other faction?

Imperial Guard have much more diversity than Marines
Chaos Marines - both former Legions and newer renegades
Eldar - Craftworlds fight in their own way.

If any faction deserves to have a gakload of unique supplements and extra codices entirely, it's the Imperial Guard.

They're recruited from hundreds of thousands of different planets, each of which is allowed to train and equip them as they see fit so long as they meet the fairly-loose Imperial Guard standards. Huge potential for variety. You name a strategy, there's probably hundreds of worlds whose Regiments specialize in it.

There's, what, a thousand different Loyalist Chapters? With less than a dozen Loyalist Legions to draw their methods from as the source of their Gene-seed? And most of which are Codex-adherent regardless of the Legion they came from?

To be fair, if everything in the fluff is to be properly represented, there'd be thousands of supplement books. The best chance you've got is the treatment of a couple pages of guard "chapter tactics" for the memorable regiments. But I doubt none other than cadian would be used considering the price tag on those vostroyans, as beautiful as they are.

There's simply far too much variety in 40k for everyone to be properly represented, someones going to get the shaft.

Do guard really deserve multiple codices? As a guard player for like 10 years I never felt like I couldn't create an army based around one of the major factions themes. The only one missing is a "feral" guard, made up of people using indigenous weapons and paper armour. That could easily be slotted into the main dex if GW thought it was interesting.
A few more flavour units in the guard dex would be nice, but the meat and potatoes of any regiment are always vets, platoons, artillery and Russes.

They all carry lasguns. They all use tanks. They all die in droves. In the end a man is a man is a man. It's not like Astartes who all are wildly different. A Space Wolf is nothing like a Blood Angel is nothing like an Iron Fist.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:


(1) The Inquisition
(2) Sisters of Battle
(3) Grey Knights
(4) Death Watch

The Death Watch and the Grey Knights could potentially be rolled into the whole "Core Loyalist Marines Codex w/ Supplements" concept, but the Grey Knights could just as easily warrant the maintaining of their own codex. The Sisters of Battle should have their own codex.

IMO, I'd rather see a solid "Inquisition" book, or maybe 2, where GK and Death Watch become more like Harlequins or Skitarii: a "supplement" to existing armies, designed to be best used as reinforcements to an existing force rather than a stand alone army.

Deathwatch could honestly be part of either a core Inquisition Codex or a supplement to a generic Loyalist Marine Codex (or even part of the generic Loyalist Marine Codex). Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights both need at least a supplement, but could maintain their own codex. So there's at least three: (1) The Inquisition; (2) Sisters of Battle; and (3) Grey Knights. Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle are too unique and have too much content to be rolled into a single Inquisition book (not to mention the amount of lore that would be in an Inquisition codex if both factions were included).

Do you actually know anything about the Deathwatch?

FFG, working with GW, has been fleshing them out to a crazy extent. Some of what they have done was even mentioned in Overkill and Ignition so that makes a large amount of the basics best considered canon.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Do guard really deserve multiple codices? As a guard player for like 10 years I never felt like I couldn't create an army based around one of the major factions themes. The only one missing is a "feral" guard, made up of people using indigenous weapons and paper armour. That could easily be slotted into the main dex if GW thought it was interesting.
A few more flavour units in the guard dex would be nice, but the meat and potatoes of any regiment are always vets, platoons, artillery and Russes.

They all carry lasguns. They all use tanks. They all die in droves. In the end a man is a man is a man. It's not like Astartes who all are wildly different. A Space Wolf is nothing like a Blood Angel is nothing like an Iron Fist.

If you look at the Older Guards Codexes and BL novels you have a massive variety of equipment, backgrounds, tradiitons, appearance, doctrine,

Feral worlders with near medieval, Regiments with steampunk power armour, otehrs with special laser resistant mirror armour etc etc.

If you use the same logic

Marines: they all carry Bolters, They all use tanks, they all kill stuff. Some of the background fluff for the Chapters is different and they might ear different coloured armour and have different decoration but actually they are very very similar.

A Space Wolf talks differently, has a different outlook erc but then so does a Tanith veteran to Mordian Iron guard to a Ctachan Jungle fighter. Kanak Skull takers are very different to the Terrax guard and thats not even getting into the BL regiments rather than the actual Codex ones.

Yeah, it is a bit of a vicious circle, but even if they put the same amount of work into, say, Orks, would they make as much money? As much as it is the community using the newer stuff, and stuff that will never be underpowered, I have a feeling some people would still want their marines more just because that's what appeals to them. Some people still make choices based on what's cool, and a large part of the customer base think that's marines.

We dont know because they seldom try - when they do its often a massive commercial success - Dark Eldar, Knights and Tau anyone?

Even when they do Marines they just keep coming back to the same old Chapters - make new stuff for other Chapters like White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard - nah just stick a big Wolfman on a wolf sleigh - Wolf WOLF WOLF

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do you actually know anything about the Deathwatch?

FFG, working with GW, has been fleshing them out to a crazy extent. Some of what they have done was even mentioned in Overkill and Ignition so that makes a large amount of the basics best considered canon.

Considering my reading list is longer than I am tall, I haven't been able to keep up with relatively recent changes to canon with respect to the Deathwatch. If you would care to elaborate on why having Deathwatch as a supplement or as part of another core codex is a bad idea, I would appreciate it.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Do you actually know anything about the Deathwatch?

FFG, working with GW, has been fleshing them out to a crazy extent. Some of what they have done was even mentioned in Overkill and Ignition so that makes a large amount of the basics best considered canon.

Considering my reading list is longer than I am tall, I haven't been able to keep up with relatively recent changes to canon with respect to the Deathwatch. If you would care to elaborate on why having Deathwatch as a supplement or as part of another core codex is a bad idea, I would appreciate it.

Deathwatch are no longer "just" groups of Marines formed ad hoc from the various Chapters.

They are an organization, with Watch Fortresses stationed around the Imperium. They have permanent members who stay with the Deathwatch rather than returning to their parent Chapter and form the command core of the Deathwatch.
They have a specific type of Deathwatch operative called the "Blackshields" which is, seemingly, penitent members of the renegade Chapters or those Loyalist Chapters who feel they cannot return to their parent Chapter.

There's a lot of material to draw from, and they are far from just Kill-Teams these days.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Deathwatch are no longer "just" groups of Marines formed ad hoc from the various Chapters.

They are an organization, with Watch Fortresses stationed around the Imperium. They have permanent members who stay with the Deathwatch rather than returning to their parent Chapter and form the command core of the Deathwatch.
They have a specific type of Deathwatch operative called the "Blackshields" which is, seemingly, penitent members of the renegade Chapters or those Loyalist Chapters who feel they cannot return to their parent Chapter.

There's a lot of material to draw from, and they are far from just Kill-Teams these days.

That's good to know.... I know I made my comment based on older, previous editions of 40k knowledge. For all I knew, the Death Watch were "Sternguard with cool guns"