With Kill Team getting released for 7E what are you planning on using ?
Spoiler:
Paimon's Adepta Sororitas Seraphim x9
- double hand flamers w/ split fire
- double Inferno Pistols w/ infiltrate
- Seraphim Superior w/ plasma pistol, Crusader
Eldar Disco Inferno[ - Fire Dragons x9
Infiltrate, Ignores Cover, Shred[/list]
Space Marine Road Warriors - Bike Squad - Sgt w/plasma pistol & melta bombs, 2 w/ Grav Guns, 4 regular, 1 attack Bike
Infiltrate, FNP, Fleshbane
One of the Grav Gun Bikers gets Fleshbane, for 3 shots that wound on 2+
Radcheck's Roughnecks - Scout Squad - Sgt, 1 w/ Heavy Bolter (relentless), 5 regular
- Scout Squad - Sgt, 1 w/ Heavy Bolter (FNP), 5 regular
Deploy nothing during regular deployment, deploy 12-18" away after regular deployment, then make 6" scout move, for the entire force
Otto Weston's Dark Eldar 4 Kabalite Warriors
Sybarite
Venom
5 Kabalite Warriors
Venom
Farseer Anath'lan's Adepta Sororitas 6x Seraphim, 2 with hand flamers Sniper & Poison
5x Celestians, 2x meltaguns Preferred Enemy
Chaos Cultists 19 Cultists with 2 heavy heavy stubbers
19 Cultists with 2 heavy heavy stubbers
Also, if you haven't seen it yet, Kommissar Waaaghrick wrote a great article about Kill Team using the 6E Kill Team rules after 7E dropped. A few things might have changed since then, but it's still a good read
Kill Team Guidelines
Spoiler:
200 points, chosen from a single codex or codex supplement
0-2 Troops
0-1 Elites
0-1 Fast Attack
• A Kill Team must include at least 4 non-vehicle models. One of these models must be your Leader and three must be Specialists.
• A Kill Team cannot include any models with more than 3 Wounds or Hull Points on their profile, Flyers, or any models with a 2+ Armour Save.
• A Kill Team cannot include any vehicles with a combined Armour Value of more than 33.
Brother Sergeant Valen (Leader)
1x Death Company Marine armed with a bolt gun, power fist, power armor, jump pack, frag & krak Grenades
Specialist 1 - Instant Death USR skill
1x Death Company Marine armed with a bolt pistol, power weapon (axe or sword most likely), power armor, jump pack, frag & krak Grenades
5x Death Company Marines armed with a bolt pistols, chainswords, power armor, jump packs, frag & krak Grenades
(other Specialists will come from here, with different skills determined once I figure out what else I like)
All models are fearless (no break tests), relentless, jump infantry (so good mobility + possible HoW attacks), with rage, feel no pain, and a withering number of attacks on the charge.
8 corsairs, jetpacks on all.
Felarch with power sword
One model with flamer
One with blaster
Two lasblaster
One splinter rifle
One shrunken catapult
And one with dual brace of pistols (2 shrunken and 2 splinter pistols)
It will be under points, but I pay the extra for heavy mesh armor. No reason jetpacks should grant the armor bonus PLUS changing the type to jetpack infantry for the exact same price as the bonus to armor...
With each model carrying plasma grenades and defensive grenades and one flamer I should be able to take down pretty much anything out there!
3 Flamers of Tzeentch
3 Nurglings
7 Seekers of Slaanesh / 3 Screamers of Tzeentch
or
3 Flamers
5 Screamers / 3 Plague Drones
or
3 Flamers
10 Daemonettes
5 Furies
or
10 Daemonettes of Slaanesh
6 Fleshhounds of Khorne
Not too many valid options for Daemons I'd say... Especialy the large troops are very expensive, limiting the Elites and FA options. The Killteams should be fairly straightforward. Interested to see what others come up with.
Here are the Kill Teams I've been working out, using mainly models I already have either built or on sprue waiting to be built. I am waiting to see what (if any) changes have been made to the Specialist rules in the new version of Kill Team before figuring out what rules to give to whom.
Deathwatch
Spoiler:
2 Veterans with Boltguns
1 Veteran with Deathwatch Shotgun
1 Veteran with Stalker Boltgun
1 Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter *
1 Vanguard with Lightning Claw
1 Biker w/ Melta Bombs
* With lower overall armour values on vehicles and less high-Toughness models, I see the Infernus being better for Kill Team than the Frag Cannon due to the longer range and higher rate of fire of the Heavy Bolter part, and the AP4 on the Heavy Flamer being better for burning anything other than MEQ out of cover, plus it is 5 points cheaper. I have Vengeance rounds and the Lightning Claw for dealing with 3+ Armour if necessary.
My main worry with these guys is how to deal with horde type Kill Teams - such as the Guardsman Platoon and Gretchin spam or Cultist spam variations.
The glut of special rules these guys carry will hopefull make them an interesting force to play. Their 3++ Save should make them pretty survivable, while the Flaming Projectiles rule should help weed out enemies in cover. Slow and Purposeful means I can move and fire the Heavy Bolter to full effect, and anything short of 3+ Armour will be useless against it's AP4 Flaming Projectiles.
I see the Stormboyz surging forward to get in the face of the opposing force right away, with the Stormboy Nob singling out any vehicles to tear apart up close. Then the Boyz come behind, along with the Gretching, to overwhelm the survivors in a tide of Mean Green.
This one I see working a bit differently than the one above, with the Kommandoz starting closer to the enemy and harassing them from cover, while the Stormboyz zip around and help where needed .The Gretchin can hold objectives or provide additional support.
Harlequins
Spoiler:
1 Troupe Master w/ Shuriken Pistol & Close Combat Weapon
1 Player w/ Shuriken Pistol & Harlequin's Embrace
3 Players w/ Shuriken Pistols & Close Combat Weapons
2 Skyweavers w/ Shuriken Cannons & Star Bolas
This one is going to be rather fragile, but hopefully their Flip Belts will allow me to make good use of cover. The Skyweavers, withe their Shuriken Cannons and Star Bolas, should be able to deal with any vehicles by at least Glancing them to death, and also provide highly mobile support for the rest of the team.
The following three Kill Teams are based off of characters and warbands from my old Inquisitor games with my wife and our friend. Since Inquisitors aren't allowed in Kill Team (being HQ), the Interrogators (as played by Ministorum Priests) represent younger versions of the Inquisitors they will become later on in life (i.e. when we played with them in the Inquisitor game.) The warbands have been padded out a bit with additional characters and vehicles to form full-sized Kill Teams, but still retain a lot of the flavor they had in the Inquisitor game. They may not have quite the most optimal loadouts on everything, but due to the connection with my previous gaming, they are still pretty cool to me.
* Always remember to exchange an Acolyte's Close Combat Weapon when buying Rapid Fire guns like Bolters, Plasma Guns, etc. That way, they have the option of shooting the pistol and then Assaulting if the want to. (For the purposes of additional movement, getting into combat so they can't be shot at, etc). It doesn't come up often, but having the option when you need it can be really useful.
** This thing is a nasty piece of work in Kill Team. 3 S6 AP4 shots and 2 S5 AP5 shots on a mobile platform with decent armour and a small transport capacity is nothing to be sneezed at!
One thing I love about Acolytes with Plasma Pistols is that since you can replace "one weapon" with the Plasma Pistol, you can choose it to be their Close Combat Weapon, leaving them with the Laspistol and instantly granting them the Gunslinger special rule, allowing them to fire both Pistols. The fact that they can do this, and then also Assault and gain the +1 Bonus for two Close Combat Weapons (because each Pistol counts as one) means they have a decent potential damage output each Turn, making them a danger even to multi-would models.
Ordo Malleus
Spoiler:
Interrogator Donavan Zaphyr (Ministorum Priest) w/ Bolt Pistol & Power Maul
Daemonhost of Khorne
Daemonhost of Nurgle
Daemonhost of Tzeentch
Daemonhost of Slaanesh
4 Soulbound Operatives (Acolytes) w/ Storm Bolters
2 Soulbound Operatives (Acolytes) w/ Meltaguns
1 Soulbound Operative (Acolyte) w/ Plasma Gun
Granted, this is only with the understanding that it has to be 200 points or less with no Heavy Support. Apart from that, I'm not sure what other guidelines I'd have to adhere to (vehicles, HQ, etc.). If I knew more about it I might be able to make a proper list.
• A Kill Team must include at least 4 non-vehicle models. One of these models must be your Leader and three must be Specialists.
• A Kill Team cannot include any models with more than 3 Wounds or Hull Points on their profile, Flyers, or any models with a 2+ Armour Save.
• A Kill Team cannot include any vehicles with a combined Armour Value of more than 33.
1- Was there something about Beasts not being allowed to be Leader/Specialists? "You cannot nominate your Leader, nor can you choose a model with the Beast unit type or Swarm special rule to be a Specialist."
2- Did they ever clarify whether Necron Quantum Shielding would contribute to the 33 AV or not? (because if it does, looks like they get zero vehicles available to them for Kill Teams)
Dominion Squad:
Superior w/ pistol and bolter (Leader, maybe)
Flamer
Flamer
Stormbolter
Stormbolter
Sororitas Rhino
Battle Sisters Squad:
Superior w/ pistol and bolter
Bolter
Bolter
Flamer
Multi-melta
The plan would be to put poison and sniper on the two Dominion flamers, allowing them to put the hurt on higher toughness models, drive them up inside the rhino and drop them relatively close to the enemy to give them a sporting chance at getting in range. The remaining 3 doms stay inside the rhino, shooting a combined 6 bolter shots at targets in maximum range, depending in how AoFs work they can hopefully ignore cover at some point in the game. Considering maybe swapping the load out of one storm sister with the superior, then I'd have one more bolter running around without needing to keep the superior inside to confer the act of faith, or the superior starts slogging after doing it, whatever.
The other squad footslogs it, flames at opportunity, scatters, tries to take objectives, etc. The multi-melta, though. She gets whatever mobility gimmick I can give her that maximizes her initial placement. If I can infiltrate or scout I'll want to use her to lay a hurt on the opponent's vehicle or heavy-hitter, or else bully them around; if not, I'll settle for relentless and hope for a miracle.
I built up a rhino using vindicator parts for the occasion, I'm looking forward to it.
Here is my inquisition kill team code name: Barrel of Monkeys
5x Jokaero
1x Priest (modelled in a safari hat and shorts)
Comes out to 200 on the dot.
The goal is to use the Jokaero flexible weapon systems to take on whatever shows up. Grot revloshun got you down? Not with 5 Heavy Flamers. Tanks being a problem? Not with 5 multi melta or lascannon shots.
The goal is to stay away from your enemy as best you can and thin them out with long range weapons and then burn em with heavy flamers if they get close. The main weakness is low T and only a 5++ as well as being super weak in cc so you will want to play keep away for the first few turns at least. However, the whole team does have a inv save so you are slightly less dependant on needing cover to survive.
The Priest can act as a cc shield if need be as he is a little better in cc and don't forget War Hymns. The ability to get a 4++ re-rollable save in cc will make him ok at tar pitting deadly enemies allowing the monkeys some time to reposition if need be. He can also use War Hymns to get the smash rule allowing him to use his cc weapon in a slightly more threatening manner then a pointed stick.
Add specialization to taste and your in for a good time
There isn't a lot of "horde" kill team from what I see here.
Neither a lot of vehicles.
My Inquisitorial kill team,based on my mini, would be:
2 Death Cult Assassins 30
1 acolytes with plasma guns and carapace armour 36
2 acolyte with flamer and carapace armours 18
3 acolytes with stormbolters and carapace armour s 33
1 acolyte leader, power armour et stormbolter 17
1 acolyte with bolter 5
1 chimera with two heavy bolters, psybolt ammo : 60
= 199
Specialists: one DCA with preferred enemy, one with shred, and the plasma acolyte with tank hunter.
I think arcoflagellants are better in kill team, especially with the USR, but I don't have any.
I choose a chimera rather than a razorback for the fire points and front armor 12. I think it will be very difficult to pass through in Kill Team.
This leaves 30 points of upgrades. You either get Death's Heads for an assault 2 poisoned attack, Rot Proboscis for Poison 3+, or a Plagueridden plus a greater reward for most likely a balesword. This unit is bonkers because they all have shrouded, and three wounds, and with a toughness of 5 its almost like they will live forever. Hammer of Wrath and Touch of Rust will give a chance at rotting/sliming away any vehicles the opponent brings. Also, these putrid fly boys will not get scared and run away, as in this kill team book daemons have fearless, and fearless units do not take break checks.
The only issue is how difficult it is to give unique personalities to the daemons. Possibly work on what sort of life these poor souls lived before nurgle's rot turned them into plaguebearers? The kits for these guys do not really have much customization.
casvalremdeikun wrote: My Kill Team is going to be 5x Deathwatch with Stalker Boltguns in a Rhino. Simple as that. Give the Specialists Eagle Eye for added range.
3x Warriors, 1 w/ BS, 2 w/ DS, 11 devilgaunts
BS leader
DS spec - Haywire in melee
DS spec - PE Terma spec - Shred VS 1+ wound models
Favoured Disciples + Faithful throng
Autogun leader
ML spec - Relentless
ML spec - MC Disciple spec - Hatred
Faithful Throng + 3x Purestrain Princelings
Gene leader
Gene spec - Shred
ML spec - Relentless
ML spec - MC
Got all the Nid ones painted and ready to go. Interestingly, since Instinctive behaviour is not cancelled out in KT, gaunts still suffer it - meaning you need synapse if you plan on running termas. However, hormas ignore the 1-3 "eat each other" result in a squad of one, and only have to charge and can't run if they fail, which isn't so bad. So those 40 hormagaunt KTs are good to go!
casvalremdeikun wrote: My Kill Team is going to be 5x Deathwatch with Stalker Boltguns in a Rhino. Simple as that. Give the Specialists Eagle Eye for added range.
Your plan for vehicles is?
Krak Grenades I guess. I could bring them down to three Stalker Boltguns and give them a TL Assault Cannon Razorback instead.
Technically, since each Marine is a separate unit, I could lay down a Barrage of Grenades each turn.
Really interested by the tyranids kill teams. I look forward to read how they do in KT !
Broodlords seem really powerful, they are like HQ characters but are allowed.
Troupe Master – Harlequin's Caress, Starmist Raiment, Leader
Player – Close Combat Weapon, Shuriken Pistol, Combat Specialist (Killer Instinct)
Player – Close Combat Weapon, Shuriken Pistol
Player – Harlequin's Embrace, Shuriken Pistol
Player – Harlequin's Kiss, Shuriken Pistol – Guerilla Specialist (Stealth)
Death Jester – Weapon Specialist (Reaping Volley or Master Craftsman)
I'm not sure whether I prefer Reaping Volley or Master Craftsman on the DJ. The former is great for regular Shuriken Cannon shots, but the latter means the special explodey round is basically guaranteed to hit. Hmm.
Troupe Master – Harlequin's Caress, Starmist Raiment, Leader
Player – Close Combat Weapon, Shuriken Pistol, Combat Specialist (Killer Instinct)
Player – Close Combat Weapon, Shuriken Pistol
Player – Harlequin's Embrace, Shuriken Pistol
Player – Harlequin's Kiss, Shuriken Pistol – Guerilla Specialist (Stealth)
Death Jester – Weapon Specialist (Reaping Volley or Master Craftsman)
I'm not sure whether I prefer Reaping Volley or Master Craftsman on the DJ. The former is great for regular Shuriken Cannon shots, but the latter means the special explodey round is basically guaranteed to hit. Hmm.
The Shuriken shots are more reliable anyway, so might as well go all the way to make them even better.
3x Warriors, 1 w/ BS, 2 w/ DS, 11 devilgaunts
BS leader
DS spec - Haywire in melee
DS spec - PE Terma spec - Shred VS 1+ wound models
Favoured Disciples + Faithful throng
Autogun leader
ML spec - Relentless
ML spec - MC Disciple spec - Hatred
Faithful Throng + 3x Purestrain Princelings
Gene leader
Gene spec - Shred
ML spec - Relentless
ML spec - MC
Got all the Nid ones painted and ready to go. Interestingly, since Instinctive behaviour is not cancelled out in KT, gaunts still suffer it - meaning you need synapse if you plan on running termas. However, hormas ignore the 1-3 "eat each other" result in a squad of one, and only have to charge and can't run if they fail, which isn't so bad. So those 40 hormagaunt KTs are good to go!
Brotherhood of psychers has no effect in KT, so zoanthropes are far from good. Also, on you can only take 0-1 elites, so you can't take 3x purestrain princelings in your last KT.
My harlequin list:
- shadowseer, mask of secrets, rolling on telepathy. Fearless leaders seem pretty good, and the -2Ld should go well with psychic shriek and maybe the grenade launcher (potentially more wounds since it's blast, especially with the -2Ld).
- troupe: master with crescendo and split fire. It can help a bit against hordes.
- 3 players with caresses. One with preferred enemy, another one with hatred
- basic player.
The big weakness would be vehicles. The shadowseer is Str6 on the charge, the others are Str4 but with 3 caresses (slightly more than 0.5 glancing hits on the charge). I don't think dropping a caress to take haywire on the master or the seer would be a good option, since in KT there's no way to hide someone in a squad (a list that would see the haywire as a threat would just focus on that guy), and it's pretty situational.
10 Tau Breachers, the SMS turret and a Devilfish with disruption pod & sensor spines. Leave one lad to babysit the turret and hide, the others shotgun stuff to death. Devilfish is probably overcosted, but in kill team, a 3+ jink and good armour value might do the job.
Alternatively, I guess you can't go wrong with crisis suits, I think you can fit in 4 dual burst cannon suits and one dual flamer suit into a kill team.
I've been speculating. 200pts makes it difficult to do with Harlequins, the only real option is a Troupe in a Starweaver with 35pts flex for pistols and CCWs. Four Skyweavers would be funny but at exactly 200pts with no close combat weapons it's short on flexibility (even if it is long on shuriken cannons).
GK can't really play, with the bit saying 'Brotherhood of Psykers does nothing' they're paying an exorbitant tax on everyone for no reason at all.
On the other end of the scale Craftworlders have an absurd number of options, though as a proud Swordwindist I'm on the side of a Dark Reaper unit (3 models, Exarch/Tempest Launcher, 2x Starshot) and a Howling Banshee unit (5 models, Exarch). Make the Banshee Exarch the leader, give the Reaper Exarch Sharpshooter, put whatever other specialist choices out you feel like, and sit back and watch the explosions.
AnomanderRake wrote: I've been speculating. 200pts makes it difficult to do with Harlequins, the only real option is a Troupe in a Starweaver with 35pts flex for pistols and CCWs. Four Skyweavers would be funny but at exactly 200pts with no close combat weapons it's short on flexibility (even if it is long on shuriken cannons).
GK can't really play, with the bit saying 'Brotherhood of Psykers does nothing' they're paying an exorbitant tax on everyone for no reason at all.
On the other end of the scale Craftworlders have an absurd number of options, though as a proud Swordwindist I'm on the side of a Dark Reaper unit (3 models, Exarch/Tempest Launcher, 2x Starshot) and a Howling Banshee unit (5 models, Exarch). Make the Banshee Exarch the leader, give the Reaper Exarch Sharpshooter, put whatever other specialist choices out you feel like, and sit back and watch the explosions.
Can't take Dark Reapers, I'm afraid - no Heavy Support options allowed.
AnomanderRake wrote: I've been speculating. 200pts makes it difficult to do with Harlequins, the only real option is a Troupe in a Starweaver with 35pts flex for pistols and CCWs. Four Skyweavers would be funny but at exactly 200pts with no close combat weapons it's short on flexibility (even if it is long on shuriken cannons).
GK can't really play, with the bit saying 'Brotherhood of Psykers does nothing' they're paying an exorbitant tax on everyone for no reason at all.
On the other end of the scale Craftworlders have an absurd number of options, though as a proud Swordwindist I'm on the side of a Dark Reaper unit (3 models, Exarch/Tempest Launcher, 2x Starshot) and a Howling Banshee unit (5 models, Exarch). Make the Banshee Exarch the leader, give the Reaper Exarch Sharpshooter, put whatever other specialist choices out you feel like, and sit back and watch the explosions.
Can't take Dark Reapers, I'm afraid - no Heavy Support options allowed.
Missed that. I suppose it's a good thing, three S4/AP3 Ignores Cover barrage shots are a bit much in scale.
casvalremdeikun wrote: My Kill Team is going to be 5x Deathwatch with Stalker Boltguns in a Rhino. Simple as that. Give the Specialists Eagle Eye for added range.
I haven't read the new rules yet, but unless they've changed it, no two Specialists can choose from the same group of rules, let alone all three have the same one. You can have one Eagle Eye, but they other two will have to have something else.
I'm surprised no one has said "as many scatterbikes/warpspiders as I can fit" yet.
Mine would be 8x Grey Knight interceptors, 2 with nemesis falchions. That gives me 8 Jump Infantry with power weapons and storm bolters that can shunt 30" once per game. Depending on how psychic stuff works, they can all be S6 or Force too.
Hey Guys, here my first KT lists, C&C are welcomed.
SoB Kill Team 200pts
Seraphim Superior Bolt Pistol, Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs Leader: KILLER INSTINCT always wounds on a 2+ when making close combat attacks against non-vehicle models
Celestian with Heavy Bolter (Specialist: EXPERT SHOT +1 Ballistic Skill)
1x Seraphim 2x Bolt Pistol (Specialist: POISONED WEAPONS)
Seraphim with Two Hand Flamers 2x Hand Flamer (Specialist: Infiltrate)
Celestian with Storm Bolter
Celestian Superior
2x Celestians
Technically, since each Marine is a separate unit, I could lay down a Barrage of Grenades each turn.
This is an important thing to remember - Frag Grenades are a very good way of dealing with a horde-style kill-team.
I've used a full cultist force before for similar reasons; it's nigh impossible to kill enough to matter if you've come loaded with Heavy Bolters and high-power weapons.
Out of curiousity, do the new kill team rules mention "Blood For The Blood God"?
I know it's impossible to add models or summon models (for good reason!) but the lower results on the Blood Tithe table - furious charge, feel no pain, +1 attack - are all rather tasty, and since every casualty is a tithe point, rather affordable!
A unit of 30 Khorne Daemonkin Cultists with a couple of heavy stubbers might do rather nicely....
locarno24 wrote: Out of curiousity, do the new kill team rules mention "Blood For The Blood God"?
Yeah the rules mention that BFTBG is not used, along with Warp Storm, Daemonic Instability, Champion of Chaos, Canticles of the Ommissiah, Mob Rule and Doctrina Imperatives. Sadly.
greyknight12 wrote:I'm surprised no one has said "as many scatterbikes/warpspiders as I can fit" yet.
Mine would be 8x Grey Knight interceptors, 2 with nemesis falchions. That gives me 8 Jump Infantry with power weapons and storm bolters that can shunt 30" once per game. Depending on how psychic stuff works, they can all be S6 or Force too.
I faced a very similar unit in the previous version of Kill Team. They worked pretty well - very fast, very durable, decently killy.
However, the Kill Team rules specify that the "Brotherhood of Psykers" rule has no effect, so your guys won't be able to use any Psychic Powers.
Selym wrote:Aren't some of those lists illegal?
Yes. The Ork Kill Team has 2 Elites. The Mechanicus Kill Team puts Specialist Rules on vehicles. (Also, the Eldar Kill Team in the latest White Dwarf includes a Heavy Support War Walker.) Either the various GW guys don't know the rules they are playing well, or they have house-ruled some stuff for the purposes of "forging the narrative" and just aren't mentioning it.
The rules make mention of allowing some leeway in list building:
Players might even agree to alter force compositions to suit the mission, the available terrain, or their model collections. Simple variations, such as allowing a warrior to select additional wargear, or allowing an additional Elites choice, can vary Kill Teams greatly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After hearing that everybody and their mum at the FLGS has picked up Deathwatch I've decided to go with Tempestus Scions for my own Kill Team, writing a pair of lists, one with and one without a Taurox Prime:
List 1.
Tempestus Scions (5) - Bolt pistol, power weapon, hotshot volleygun & plasma gun
Taurox Prime - Taurox gatling cannon & twin-linked autocannon
Specialists (all from the first group of five):
Tempestus Scion with the volleygun - Indomitable Specialist (Relentless)
Tempestus Scion with the plasma gun - Weapon Specialist (Ignore Cover)
Tempestus Scion with an eyepatch or something gnarly - Guerilla Specialist (Preferred Enemy)
Not sure though if I should keep the gatling cannon on the Taurox or drop it in favour of the regular cannon and some smoke launchers instead. Though on the other hand, the local meta does favour tough models from time to time, which makes a crapton of shots perhaps more preferable to a single small blast.
casvalremdeikun wrote: My Kill Team is going to be 5x Deathwatch with Stalker Boltguns in a Rhino. Simple as that. Give the Specialists Eagle Eye for added range.
I haven't read the new rules yet, but unless they've changed it, no two Specialists can choose from the same group of rules, let alone all three have the same one. You can have one Eagle Eye, but they other two will have to have something else.
The new rules haven't changed this restriction. You can't have multiple specialists take abilities from the same Specialist category. Only one could take Eagle Eye.
locarno24 wrote: Out of curiousity, do the new kill team rules mention "Blood For The Blood God"?
Yeah the rules mention that BFTBG is not used, along with Warp Storm, Daemonic Instability, Champion of Chaos, Canticles of the Ommissiah, Mob Rule and Doctrina Imperatives. Sadly.
definitely stick with 'normal' codex cultists, then. 35 autogun dudes is the way forwards.
I wonder about the viability of a Kill Team made up entirely of Shining Spears. 6 Shining Spears and an Exarch with a Star Lance comes to just under 200pts if I understand it right.
Dark Eldar: 0-2 Troops N/A 0-1 Elites 4x Mandrakes - 48pts
-Leader
-Combat Specialist
-Dirty Fighters Specialist
-Weapon or Indomitable Specialist
0-1 Fast Attack 3x Beastmaster - 30pts
6x Razorwing Flock - 120pts
Total: 198pts.
(Perhaps swapping 1 or 2 flocks or a Beastmaster for 3 or so Khymera's)
Since Beasts can't be Leaders or Specialists and you REQUIRE them, I've taken 4 Mandrakes to fill those slots, with Stealth and Shroud they will make for great specialists. (Otherwise could swap for a unit of 6 Warriors).
Then taking 6 highly mobile Flocks, 5 rending attacks on the charge, with Init 5 and 3 wounds each they push the KT limitations. Granted they have a 6+ save, but being a beast they can easily run from cover to cover until they are within charge range.
My biggest concern in this team is that it's only 13 models, (15 if I take Warriors), so once I take 7 casualties (easily done) I'll have to start taking break tests and.... well, Ld5 Birds aren't going to stick around for long. (Aka, is having a low Ld Kill Team a really bad idea?)
What are your thoughts? Do you feel it's too few models?
~
BrookM wrote: The rules make mention of allowing some leeway in list building:
Players might even agree to alter force compositions to suit the mission, the available terrain, or their model collections. Simple variations, such as allowing a warrior to select additional wargear, or allowing an additional Elites choice, can vary Kill Teams greatly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: After hearing that everybody and their mum at the FLGS has picked up Deathwatch I've decided to go with Tempestus Scions for my own Kill Team, writing a pair of lists, one with and one without a Taurox Prime:
List 1.
Tempestus Scions (5) - Bolt pistol, power weapon, hotshot volleygun & plasma gun
Taurox Prime - Taurox gatling cannon & twin-linked autocannon
Specialists (all from the first group of five):
Tempestus Scion with the volleygun - Indomitable Specialist (Relentless)
Tempestus Scion with the plasma gun - Weapon Specialist (Ignore Cover)
Tempestus Scion with an eyepatch or something gnarly - Guerilla Specialist (Preferred Enemy)
Not sure though if I should keep the gatling cannon on the Taurox or drop it in favour of the regular cannon and some smoke launchers instead. Though on the other hand, the local meta does favour tough models from time to time, which makes a crapton of shots perhaps more preferable to a single small blast.
Good lists, probably what I'd go for as well. I'd keep the hotshot pistols when dealing with Marines, however. And if people would allow me to '' use additional wargear '', I would take a command squad to use my Tempestor Prime modeled with a regular hotshot rifle.
BrookM wrote: He is however an easier target than before, as he's not bubble wrapped in a squad now.
true, but if hes a specialist, you can give him Feel No Pain. or Eagle Eye (36" range bolter, 27" range combi-disintegrator) or Reaping Volley (rapid-fire disintegrator at two different targets!)
basically any role he takes in KT is going to be nasty, especially as he's free
Bobthehero wrote: Good lists, probably what I'd go for as well. I'd keep the hotshot pistols when dealing with Marines, however. And if people would allow me to '' use additional wargear '', I would take a command squad to use my Tempestor Prime modeled with a regular hotshot rifle.
Yeah, in hindsight, the local meta is probably going to be a bit of a 3+ jamboree in the coming weeks with Deathwatch everywhere alongside Sternguard and Crisis Suits.
Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks squad leaders and officers should have access to rifle weapons as well!
Charax wrote: true, but if hes a specialist, you can give him Feel No Pain. or Eagle Eye (36" range bolter, 27" range combi-disintegrator) or Reaping Volley (rapid-fire disintegrator at two different targets!)
basically any role he takes in KT is going to be nasty, especially as he's free
One can always hope that the model offs itself when firing one of its disintegrator weapons.
Though giving it Eagle Eye may be one of the best options out there, nasty and allowing it to remain further away and in relative safety.
going through a few different ideas with the small amount of CSM i have:
1) Plague marines
veterans of the long war
Plague champ (leader) meltabomb
plague marine with plasma gun (x2) (reaping volley and preferred enemy)
plague marine (havent decided another specialist rule)
plague marine
The Arcanthrites are basically worse Wraiths but that's still an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FlashyGit wrote: going through a few different ideas with the small amount of CSM i have:
1) Plague marines
veterans of the long war
Plague champ (leader) meltabomb
plague marine with plasma gun (x2) (reaping volley and preferred enemy)
plague marine (havent decided another specialist rule)
plague marine
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: [
Why bother with VotLW? Everyone is Fearless and Hatred vs Space Marines is awfully narrow.
Yeah, honestly was just trying to squeeze the 5 points in somewhere. any other suggestions where to spend it? i considered giving a power axe to the champ, but everyone having free poison attacks already kind of swayed me against that, and i just opted to give the champ a melta bomb and the squad have VOTLW to eat up those 15 points.
BrookM wrote: You can fudge around with the rules though.
Yes, but if you start accepting that as a baseline the tactics thread becomes pointless, for example:
"My Kill Team: 1 Knight titan"
"But it' doesn't meet the minimum number of models, vehicle AV or 'leader cannot be a vehicle' restrictions"
"You can fudge around with the rules though. "
Once you start altering the rules, you're no longer playing Kill Team, you're playing "Kill Team: BrookM edition" and your tactics are distinct from those that are appropriate for a KT thread
So I fielded the list I had mentioned earlier in the thread and have a few observations. Specialists ended up being multi-melta sister with infiltrate, flamer with sniper and another flamer with soulblaze.
-my opponent was a blood angels player who was getting back into the hobby, he'd played a game already with DC or assault marines and was keen to try something else, when I pointed out the scouts got FAQ'd he made a camo scout list supported by a las-back.
-I rolled initiative and deployed first, mission type gave me a lot of outflanking and bad rolls gave him none.
-then he siezed initiative and las'd my rhino right in the face.
-Fist roll on shield of faith ever was a success.
-Rhino went on to sneak around terrain, throw storm bolter shots at bunched up scouts, the doms inside got an act of faith off.
-I somehow thought I had BS3, missed two multimelta shots into the las-back that should have hit. Then she took a lascannon shot to the face.
-Neither effect on the flamers came into play. But the flamers themselves were really useful, and scared the scout player away from my objective.
-Game had to end early, overall a quick fun refresher.
I'm beginning to wonder if infiltrate on the multimelta might be better served with eagle-eye. Holding off on soul blaze until I actually encounter a multi-wound model
It may be a bit of a risky waste to have a heavy weapon outflank, as it may both end up at the wrong flank and well, you can still shoot it, but it's a snapshot, so you better hope you hit or you can kiss that model goodbye for sure.
Personally I'd go with Relentless or yes, an increase in weapon range, which does affect the melta range as well.
Maybe give one of your ghouls with a storm bolter ignore cover instead? Which may not seem like much in most cases, but against models with camo gear, quite handy!
BrookM wrote: It may be a bit of a risky waste to have a heavy weapon outflank, as it may both end up at the wrong flank and well, you can still shoot it, but it's a snapshot, so you better hope you hit or you can kiss that model goodbye for sure.
Not outflank, Infiltrate. The book says it works as described in the main rulebook.
Could I trouble those gathered here to offer feed back on my Death Company list I posted back on the first page? Here's the updated list with specialists abilities:
Valen's Death Company
Brother Sergeant Valen (Leader, becomes a character)
1x Death Company Marine armed with a bolt gun, power fist, power armor, jump pack, frag & krak grenades
Specialist 1 - 1x Death Company Marine armed with a bolt pistol, power weapon (axe or sword most likely), power armor, jump pack, frag & krak grenades - Skill: Deathblow (Instant Death)
Specialist 2 - 1x Death Company Marine armed with a bolt pistol, chainsword, power armor, jump pack, frag & krak grenades - Skill: Exploit Weakness (Rending)
Specialist 3 - 1x Death Company Marine armed with a bolt pistol, chainsword, power armor, jump packs, frag & krak grenades - Skill: Machine Saboteur (Hits vs. armor are resolved similar to a haywire attack)
3x Death Company Marines armed with a bolt pistols, chainswords, power armor, jump packs, frag & krak grenades
All models are fearless (no break tests), relentless, jump infantry (so good mobility + possible HoW attacks if I use the jump packs in the assault phase), with rage, feel no pain, and a withering number of attacks on the charge (5 each, except for the Leader who gets 4 swings w/ the fist on the charge).
Once I get a game in with it I'll check back with a battle report. It isn't game breakingly powerful, being melee focused and only 7 models strong, but I think it'll work well as a general take all comers list.
Thanks for any feedback in advance & take it easy.
That's going to be a tough nut to crack! My first instinct would be to bunker up in a vehicle, but seeing as the Acolytes have S4 and there are also two mining lasers present.. yikes?
Not sure about the soul blaze though, for it to kick in you need to have an unsaved wound first and seeing as most models have a single wound, it may be a bit wasted unless you come across a team made up of multi-wound models.
BrookM wrote: If a model has Infiltrate, you may opt to have it Outflank, depending on the mission criteria.
Ah OK.
Yeah, I feel like infiltrate is good if you've got initiative and can get that multi-melta to pop a particularly expensive piece before getting offed herself. Without initiative her placement has to be more defensively and then the inherent problems of the multi-melta become a more pressing factor.
Eagle-eye would mitigate one of those major problems and raise the multi-melta's threat radius, but there's so much more terrain in a killteam game I don't really know if it's worth losing sniper on the flamer.
Relentless fixes the other problem instead, and it's actually very tempting, but it's also done a lot, a very predictable choice for the heavy weapon and one people usually expecting to see going in...
You can always downgrade the multi-melta to a regular meltagun, while a dip in range, does make it more effective when you outflank with it.
Don't go dissing Relentless though! It's made for stuff like that, I don't give a damn if everybody does it, it does what it needs to do and then some!
You can always make her Relentless, shove her in the Rhino, then have her do drive-by's from the top hatch without the penalties for moving.
Has anyone had the thought of using Skitarii? Any ideas with them?
Idea for a list I have in mind is:
Burst pistols and taser goads.
Inflitrator Princeps (leader) - (either phase taser, digi weapons or conversion field)
Sicarian Infiltrator (sniper 5 shots hitting on 3, wounding on 4's rerolling with AP2 on 6)
Sicarian Infiltrator (rending potential for a lot of attacks generating lots of rend)
Sicarian Infiltrator (to be decided, maybe assault grenades?)
Sicarian Infiltrator
They are pretty mobile as well with their dunestrider and infiltrate (with option for outflanking as well).
Probably have them all go after their own enemies? can deal with anything due to the amount of attacks each one has.
comes to 195 or 200 points (depending on loadout).
Or:
Skitarii rangers
Ranger Alpha (leader) - (conversion field)
3x normal rangers
1 ranger with transuranic arqubus (scout, always useful right?)
Skitarii vanguard
Vanguard Alpha (rending, same as rending infiltrator above) - (phosphor blast pistol, taser goad, conversion field and the omniscient mask)
3x normal vanguard
1 vanguard (sniper, get that lucky 6 to wound and instant 2 AP2 wounds on the target)
Maybe have the alphas buddy together? and have everyone run around doing stuff.
comes to 200 points.
But if you had to choose, what would you pick out of the two? Any tweaks?
krist100 wrote: Has anyone had the thought of using Skitarii? Any ideas with them?
Idea for a list I have in mind is:
Burst pistols and taser goads.
Inflitrator Princeps (leader) - (either phase taser, digi weapons or conversion field)
Sicarian Infiltrator (sniper 5 shots hitting on 3, wounding on 4's rerolling with AP2 on 6)
Sicarian Infiltrator (rending potential for a lot of attacks generating lots of rend)
Sicarian Infiltrator (to be decided, maybe assault grenades?)
Sicarian Infiltrator
They are pretty mobile as well with their dunestrider and infiltrate (with option for outflanking as well).
Probably have them all go after their own enemies? can deal with anything due to the amount of attacks each one has.
comes to 195 or 200 points (depending on loadout).
Or:
Skitarii rangers
Ranger Alpha (leader) - (conversion field)
3x normal rangers
1 ranger with transuranic arqubus (scout, always useful right?)
Skitarii vanguard
Vanguard Alpha (rending, same as rending infiltrator above) - (phosphor blast pistol, taser goad, conversion field and the omniscient mask)
3x normal vanguard
1 vanguard (sniper, get that lucky 6 to wound and instant 2 AP2 wounds on the target)
Maybe have the alphas buddy together? and have everyone run around doing stuff.
comes to 200 points.
But if you had to choose, what would you pick out of the two? Any tweaks?
My group do 250pts kill teams. I've used skitarii a couple of times. Usually 6 Rangers and 6 Vanguard. 2 arcubus and 2 haywire rifles. Leader has arc maul and posphor blast pistol. Does pretty good. I thought about reworking it to include a dragoon.
If drones count towards the model minimum I would just take a squadron of piranhas. I would probably take a haywire drone, and a stealth drone, and maybe a fightey drone!
BrookM wrote: You can always downgrade the multi-melta to a regular meltagun, while a dip in range, does make it more effective when you outflank with it.
Yes, but then I'd have to swap out my gorgeous multi-melta model (and I just re-based her too!)
But yeah, regular melta is a very different beast on the field, I feel like a multi is more likely to kill something if played carefully.
BrookM wrote: Don't go dissing Relentless though! It's made for stuff like that, I don't give a damn if everybody does it, it does what it needs to do and then some!
You can always make her Relentless, shove her in the Rhino, then have her do drive-by's from the top hatch without the penalties for moving.
Will definitely try that. At the moment the rhino has two storm bolter sisters and the storm bolter that comes with it (as I understand it, they can all shoot at different targets?) and I do find it really useful to bully infantry. Local meta so far has people putting their anti-vehicle weapons on their own vehicles if they take vehicles at all, kind of makes me want to keep them separate, since they'll be hunting the rhino while multi-melta hunts them.
adamsouza wrote: Spikey Bits did a review of Kill Team which explains a lot, for those still on the fence.
There are several things in this video that are wrong. Some of it seems like he didn't even read the rules. He mentions several times about squads and various rule combinations that do not apply in Kill Team due to the main rule that each model acts independently of any others. You have to purchase your kill team using the minimum model count per unit in your army's codex, but they do not have to stay together.
It also didn't help that he kept pulling out the old kill team rules and went back and forth. Literally fell asleep listening to that "review" last night.
So yeah,
Necron Tomb Blades are incredible in Kill Team
(in case you didn't already know).
For the equivalent of 18 searchlights you get:
Spoiler:
- T5
- 4+ (upgradeable to 3+ for a couple points)
- 5+++
- jetbike movement (with Relentless and Hammer of Wrath, naturally)
- a 24" Rapid Fire Twin-linked S5 AP4 gun that auto wounds/glances on a 6 (that can have ignore cover for a couple points more)
You can fit ten of them in a 200 point list leaving 20 points for upgrades... but the tricky thing is trying to figure out which of their upgrades is better: ignore cover for better killing, or 3+ for more survivability.
If we wanted to spam them with max killiness, my thinking would be,
1x Tomb Blade (Shield, Scope) [Leader]
8x Tomb Blades (Scopes)
1x Tomb Blade (naked) [but upgraded to Weapons Specialist with Sharpshooter so he gets Ignore Cover like everyone else in the list]
Not sure what other Specialist rules to go for.
So far my ideas were either Move Through Cover or Stealth from Guerilla Specialist.
Undecided on what the last one (or two, if my Leader gets to choose as well) would be.
Im still a little confused on the rule wordings. If i were to select fearless for, say a gretchin....would only that ONE gretchin be fearless or would his whole squad be?
Just the one Gretchin (in KT everyone acts as their own individual unit. If he gets a bonus conferred to him via being a specialist, that model alone gets the bonus).
Thoughts/Comments? What to give the 3rd specialist?
Sybarite is the only character, right? That automatically makes him the Leader, who can not be a Specialist (Unless you get the Leader trait that has him pick a Specialist trait, in which case you actually need 2 more Specialists anyway). My other comment is I worry about the shredder. I guess it will depend on you, but so far when making lists for any faction, I haven't felt confident including small blasts.
angelofvengeance wrote: Well, I could probably get away with the Beast Master as the leader.
Can't sadly, he counts as a Beast. Beasts can't be specialists or leaders. As for picking a Leader, it's whoever has the highest Leadership, otherwise if it's a tie you get to pick
DakkaCat wrote: As for picking a Leader, it's whoever has the highest Leadership, otherwise if it's a tie you get to pick
To be a bit clearer, it is the Character with the highest Leadership, unless you have no characters, in which case it is the model with the highest Leadership. In either case, you may choose between any eligible models that are tied. Models with the Beast type or Swarm special rule are never eligible, and the elected model gains the Character unit type if they don't already have either it or the Independent Character rule.
You may, depending on the mission, actually have a high success ratio, as you have more dudes than the opponent has guns or blades to wipe everything out.
As an example, having a wave of cultists make a mad dash for the enemy board edge with the "Infiltrate the Camp" mission will give your opponent the impossible task of holding back the tide!
edit.
And visa-versa as well, you can simply build a wall of expendables to keep the enemy away.
I might be going up against a 20 veterans 2 armored sentinel imp guard army. I've worked the numbers, and it seems very hard to deal with as Dark angels/sisters of battle.
Do you guys have any tips about that? I'd like to avoid scout spam if possible.
DakkaCat wrote: Can't sadly, he counts as a Beast. Beasts can't be specialists or leaders. As for picking a Leader, it's whoever has the highest Leadership, otherwise if it's a tie you get to pick
Milkshaker wrote: I might be going up against a 20 veterans 2 armored sentinel imp guard army. I've worked the numbers, and it seems very hard to deal with as Dark angels/sisters of battle.
Do you guys have any tips about that? I'd like to avoid scout spam if possible.
20 stormtroopers and a pair of chicken walkers, eh?
If he is going boys over toys, you might have to do the same, I'm afraid. At least it's not a conscript Zerg rush you are facing...
Milkshaker wrote: I might be going up against a 20 veterans 2 armored sentinel imp guard army. I've worked the numbers, and it seems very hard to deal with as Dark angels/sisters of battle.
Do you guys have any tips about that? I'd like to avoid scout spam if possible.
20 stormtroopers and a pair of chicken walkers, eh?
If he is going boys over toys, you might have to do the same, I'm afraid. At least it's not a conscript Zerg rush you are facing...
true, but dealing with the 2 multilaser sentinels can be a hassle i imagine. not sure how to do that
Milkshaker wrote: I might be going up against a 20 veterans 2 armored sentinel imp guard army. I've worked the numbers, and it seems very hard to deal with as Dark angels/sisters of battle.
Do you guys have any tips about that? I'd like to avoid scout spam if possible.
20 stormtroopers and a pair of chicken walkers, eh?
If he is going boys over toys, you might have to do the same, I'm afraid. At least it's not a conscript Zerg rush you are facing...
true, but dealing with the 2 multilaser sentinels can be a hassle i imagine. not sure how to do that
Either ignore as best you can by hiding in cover with camo gear or take them out straight away, though the latter may be a bit bothersome as they got AV12 up front, which makes them quite godlike in Kill Team.
ELDAR 7x Striking Scorpions. 85pts for Squad,
+34pts for 2 more,
+10pts for Exarch,
+10pts Two Chainsabres on Exarch.
Total: 139pts
3x Windriders. 51pts for Squad
+10pts for Scatter laser
Total: 61pts
Kill Team Total: 200pts.
The idea being Stealth + Shrouded on my Scorpions will keep them incredibly safe until they can engage in close combat.
With Move Through Cover and Infiltrate they are perfect for capturing and holding objectives, or just getting up in the enemies face. Hitting at Init 5 with Str4, along with their Mandiblasters, I can't see many units standing upto them. Not to mention 3+ armor saves! Then with the Exarchs new Stalker rule he'll decimate in combat.
Then to back it all up, we have 3 Windriders who can speed cap objectives or just be a T4 annoyance. With one of them carrying a Scatter Laser for soft anti-tank.
Otherwise, take the same list above but swap the 3x Windriders with 5x Rangers for 60pts, also coming with Shrouded, Move Through Cover and Infiltrate, I could happily control most of the map from the get go.
As for Leader and Specialists, the Exarch will be the Leader due to highest Ld, however with his special rule he already has enough power that I'm fine with him not being able to get a specialist ability. Then I imagine it will just be 3 Scorpions taking Combat Specialist (+1WS, Hatred, HoW), Dirty Fighter Specialist (Exploit Weakness, Murderous Blows, Executioner) and Indomitable or Guerilla Specialist (FnP or Preferred Enemy).
I know Howling Banshee's are great and all but, what can I say I love Striking Scorpions and can't say no to 2+ Cover Saves!
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Other team I'm working on are...
TAU 3x Stealth Battlesuits. 90pts for Squad,
+5pts for Fusion Blaster,
1x Weapon Specialist (Master-Craftsman, Fusion Blaster),
1x Guerilla Specialist (Preferred Enemy, Burst Cannon),
1x Indomitable Specialist (Feel no Pain, Burst Cannon),
Total: 95pts.
9x Strike Team. 45pts for Squad,
+36pts for 4 more.
+10pts for Shas'ui,
+10pts for DS8 tactical support turret,
1x Leader - Shas'ui.
Mixture of Pulse Rifles and Pulse Carbines (5/4 or 6/3).
Total: 101pts.
Kill Team Total: 196pts
Sadly left over with 4pts... and neither Bonding Knife Ritual or Advance Targeting System are of ZERO use in Kill Team, so can't add them into my Stealth Suits or anything. Booo!
Now, I know what your going to say... Why waste points on the Shas'ui? You could get another Fire Warrior!... and... yeah, I kind of agree, if I did that this build would be much better. Buuuut I -really- wanted to make my Fusion Blaster Stealth Suit a Specialist. But since they had the highest Ld this meant I had to fork out 10pts (SERIOUSLY WHY IS HE SO EXPENSIVE?!) to get a Shas'ui in the Firewarrior unit. I honestly might even switch the turret for another Firewarrior to bring my numbers up, means I don't have to start taking Break Tests until after 7 models rather than 6, (right?) ...eh, we'll see, we'll see.
Anyway, The Firewarriors make up the bulk, a few being near the front with Carbines taking objectives, whilst the remaining take the backline with their 36" range picking off what they can. Whilst this is happening the Stealth Suits would get in and be incredibly annoying, keeping in cover for 2+ saves whilst blasting lots of firepower into the enemy.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Finally I wanted to make a pure Beastmaster team, but sadly being Beasts... I had to add in more models to be my Leader/Specialists rip the dream
DARK ELDAR 4x Mandrakes 36pts for Squad,
+12pts for 1 more,
1x Leader,
1x Combat Specialist (Killer Instinct)
1x Dirty Fighters Specialist (Murderous Blows)
1x Indomitable Specialist (Feel no Pain)
Total: 48pts
Beastmasters +30pts for 3x Beastmaster,
+120pts for 6x Razorwing Flock,
Total: 150pts
Kill Team Total: 198pts.
(Perhaps swapping 1 Razorwing Flock and 1 Beastmaster for 3 Khymera's)
Since Beasts can't be Leaders or Specialists and you REQUIRE them, I've taken 4 Mandrakes to fill those slots, with Stealth and Shroud they will make for great specialists. Amazing cover saves, Infiltrate and MtC. Otherwise I could easily swap them for a basic unit of 6 Warriors.
Now to the Beastmaster dream, I'm taking 6 highly mobile Razorwing Flocks, (that's 5 rending attacks on the charge, with Init 5 and 3 wounds each they push the KT limitations). Whilst they do only have a 6+ save, they are also beast meaning they can easily run from cover to cover until they are within charge range. Hopefully keeping out of sight or surviving until then on their 3 wounds.
My biggest concern is when the team needs to start taking Break Tests... Since Ld5 Birds aren't going to stick around for long! Haha
_____
Anyway that's just a list of my 3 current Kill Teams, I doubt I'll make the Dark Eldar one, it was just a gimmick I was playing with... but I'm very excited to get my Striking Scorpions and Tau Stealthsuits out there!
_____
Stealth suits are quite a tough nut to crack, stick them in cover and unless there's a cover ignoring plasma gun around, you can laugh as you shrug off most incoming fire.
Maybe give one of the burst cannons split fire when facing hordes?
BrookM wrote: Stealth suits are quite a tough nut to crack, stick them in cover and unless there's a cover ignoring plasma gun around, you can laugh as you shrug off most incoming fire.
Maybe give one of the burst cannons split fire when facing hordes?
Indeed! That's my thinking behind both the Stealth Suits and the Striking Scorpions.
As for Split-fire, that's a pretty good idea! But would mean my Fusion Blaster is no longer MC, gonna hurt if that misses Dx haha.
But hopefully against hordes the Firewarriors would be able to pull their weight and help thin them out. Would probably cut the Shas'ui, make the Fusion Blaster my leader, give one of the Burst Cannons Reaping Volley and take another Firewarrior to make it a unit of 10. Heck maybe even build a 4th Stealth Suit, so I can swap between a Fusion Blaster or a Burst Cannon.
That makes me wonder though, are there any rules against pulling out different lists if you have 2 or 3? I mean I wouldn't think that's toooo unsportsmanlike, not like I'm building -exactly- to counter my opponent. Just have 1 list for normal, 1 list for hordes etc.
It may be a bit (well, a hella lot more) risky, but you can always take one or two markerlight drones to help out with the buffing of the somewhat crummy BS. Or take a few pathfinders, put those in cover and have them do the painting.
There are no official rules, however for an upcoming tourney we're holding at the FLGS we've decided to keep it to strictly one list per player, mainly to keep the tourney spirit going and hopefully encourage people to bring balanced lists.
When we did a campaign last year we allowed for multiple lists, as long as you stuck to your codex of choice throughout.
It will be interesting to see how the Striking Scorpions will be doing, most people tend to emphasise on ranged combat over melee where I'm from. I'm sure you'll do well in the "rip and tear" department, it's just a matter of getting there in once piece.
Do Wyches still have access to all those special weapons? I bought a squad back in the day when they were re-released and gave the ghouls just about every type of melee weapon included.
BrookM wrote: Do Wyches still have access to all those special weapons? I bought a squad back in the day when they were re-released and gave the ghouls just about every type of melee weapon included.
10+ models gets you up to 3 wyches with cult weapons, 5 gets you 1 wych with a cult weapon.
Here are the few I am planning on running. Already have the models for the first two. Tau will be a new team built partially out of the KT box.
Felarch Hyacinth's Landing Party
Spoiler:
Reaver Band - Hunters (110)
1x Felarch Hyacinth with CCW/Pistols and Venom Blade
4x Reavers with CCW/Pistols
1x Hunter Manchineel with Flamer and Feel No Pain
Heavy Mesh Armor
Reaver Band - Stalkers (90)
5x Reavers with Splinter Rifles
Stalker Foxglove with Blaster and Sharpshooter
Stalker Oleander with Blaster and Infiltrate
The Hunters have heavy mesh (no real need for Jet Packs since I don't have them modeled and this is a CCish unit) and take the forward position using Reckless abandon to Gunsling at people and then set up for a nice charge. The Stalkers remain in cover or in the midfield and pepper the enemy with poison/blaster shots.
Sisters of the Ebullient Sacrifice
Spoiler:
Battle Sister Squad - A Cheerful Death (115)
1x Sister Superior Meredith with Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
2x Battle Sisters
1x Sister Angharad with Heavy Bolter and Relentless
1x Sister Heulwen with Flamer
Sororitas Rhino
Dominion Squad - Beaming Countenance (85)
1x Dominion Superior Marged with Bolt Pistol/Chainsword
2x Dominions
1x Dominion Anwen with Meltagun and Preferred Enemy
1x Dominion Sioned with Meltagun and Expert Shot
Dominions scout forward and take up positions in cover, meltas ready to pop vehicles or burn high priority targets. The BSS cruises to the front in their Rhino to get in the opponent's face/accomplish objectives, using the Rhino as mobile cover.
Duskfall Reconnaissance Cadre
Spoiler:
Pathfinder Team Duskfall (91)
1x Shas'ui Duskfall with PC/ML and Blacksun Filter
2x Pathfinders with PC/ML 1x Pathfinder Ry'deen with Ion Rifle and Preferred Enemy
1x Pathfinder Mun'shi with Rail Rifle and Sharpshooter
Strike Team Alpha (55)
5x Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles
DS8 Tactical Support Turret with SMS
Breacher Team Alpha (54)
5x Fire Warriors with Pulse Blaster
1x Fire Warrior Hasu'mi with Pulse Blaster and Fearless
Just trying to mix it up with volume and types of fire here. Breachers play the front lines, Strike Team backs them up at 30" range which in KT should be most of the board. Pathfinder squad are the characters/specialists, creeping around in and out of cover. Rail Rifle for sniping high priority targets. Ion Rifle for armor/big dudes, also re-rolls Gets Hot 1s the first time due to Preferred Enemy, so can be liberal with the S8 blasts.
I've had a chance to play the Sisters in a few more games, mostly against people returning to the hobby- but I did tie with a deathwatch bikers list which was finally able to take down the rhino.
Anyway, I'm finally of a mind to try to improve it, and the biggest opportunity I see at the moment are the special abilities: at the moment infiltrate on the multi-melta is only effective on average 50% of the time, the sniper flamer only offers a marginal improvement over a regular one with the toughnesses I've encountered, and soulblaze likewise hasn't had a chance to shine.
So I'm considering this:
Dominion Squad:
Superior w/ pistol and bolter (Leader)
Flamer
Flamer
Stormbolter (Scout)
Stormbolter
Sororitas Rhino
Battle Sisters Squad:
Superior w/ pistol and chainsword (Killer Instinct)
Bolter
Bolter
Flamer
Multi-melta (Eagle Eye)
This time around, the entire Dom squad (minus the superior, barring a fortuitous leadership roll) stay in the rhino and move up aggressively, correct me if I'm wrong, but scout on the storm bolter should confer scout on the rhino if she's in it? Sister Chainsaw footslogs behind it for mobile cover (unless she can also ride inside? I think she can't, per the 'normal restrictions' described for transports)
Depending on how scary the enemy is for vehicles, the Rhino either dislodges the flamers just close enough and hangs back with bolter fire, or drops off the storm bolters and pushes in, launching flamer templates from its hatches. At around this time, Sister Chainsaw throws up an act of faith, hopes desperately to hit, and issues that many wounds with a 2+ rerollable.
If it looks like the rhino is on its way out, it drops off its passengers and tank shocks to try to set up firing lanes for the flamers.
Captain Joystick wrote: Sister Chainsaw footslogs behind it for mobile cover (unless she can also ride inside? I think she can't, per the 'normal restrictions' described for transports) .
Well she can't begin the game in the rhino (because it's the other squad's dedicated transport) but she can hop in immediately when the game begins if you deploy her next to it.
As per the KT Rules:
"Transport vehicles can carry a number of models equal to their Transport Capacity (but following all of the normal restrictions), regardless of which unit they were selected from during Kill Team selection. However, only models that were selected as part of the same unit during Kill Team selection, and were assigned a Dedicated Transport, can begin the game embarked upon their Dedicated Transport."
The part about "normal restrictions" just means like, bulky and beasts and stuff. I presume.
But since the superior is from the battle sister squad I figured the Battle sister squad I figured she'd be prevented from riding in the transport so long as the dominions are already inside it, for the same reasons the two groups of five wouldn't be able to share the transport at the same time in a regular 40k game.
Either way, it's not an assault vehicle so she needs to spend at least one turn outside of it before charging so maybe it's for the best.
Captain Joystick wrote: But since the superior is from the battle sister squad I figured the Battle sister squad I figured she'd be prevented from riding in the transport so long as the dominions are already inside it, for the same reasons the two groups of five wouldn't be able to share the transport at the same time in a regular 40k game.
Either way, it's not an assault vehicle so she needs to spend at least one turn outside of it before charging so maybe it's for the best.
I dunno I think the "regardless of which unit" part is pretty clearly showing that in KT the rules are different. Because as per the Every Man For Himself rule each model is their own unit. So if we went by normal 40k rules that means that only one model can ever be in a transport at any given time. And we know that isn't what they intended.
Captain Joystick wrote: I've had a chance to play the Sisters in a few more games, mostly against people returning to the hobby- but I did tie with a deathwatch bikers list which was finally able to take down the rhino.
Anyway, I'm finally of a mind to try to improve it, and the biggest opportunity I see at the moment are the special abilities: at the moment infiltrate on the multi-melta is only effective on average 50% of the time, the sniper flamer only offers a marginal improvement over a regular one with the toughnesses I've encountered, and soulblaze likewise hasn't had a chance to shine.
So I'm considering this:
Dominion Squad:
Superior w/ pistol and bolter (Leader)
Flamer
Flamer
Stormbolter (Scout)
Stormbolter
Sororitas Rhino
*snip* correct me if I'm wrong, but scout on the storm bolter should confer scout on the rhino if she's in it? *snip*
Dominions already have the scout rule from themselves, don't they?
Milkshaker wrote: I might be going up against a 20 veterans 2 armored sentinel imp guard army. I've worked the numbers, and it seems very hard to deal with as Dark angels/sisters of battle.
Do you guys have any tips about that? I'd like to avoid scout spam if possible.
If he's doing that, he won't have any special weapons or armor upgrades. Its gonna be 20 barebones vets and whatever free weapons the sentinels can take.
Just focus on killing guardsmen, kill 12, and he's on break tests. With only LD7, most vets will take off unless the leader is nearby (and he's only l 8)
I don't think people realize how much break tests hurt horde armies. When a model fails that test, they are gone. They are straight up removed from the game. When my guard broke last night, all but one guardsman ran that turn, and the final ran in the next, leaving me with just a Chimera.
in addition, units like cultists cant kill vehicles. And when said vehicle, a Chimera, is packing a heavy flamer, it can pretty much fight with impunity if the cultists don't have support. There's a lot of give and take when you build a list, Elites struggle against hordes, but hordes will suffer against a well supported vehicle.
Speaking of which, Chimeras are amazing in kill team. Multilasers and a heavy flamer let it cover a lot of roles, and you can fit your whole team in it if you wish to keep them together and safe for a turn or two. In addition, lasgun arrays can fire at different targets from the Chimera's main weapons, which is handy for guys stuck inside not doing anything. I'm waiting on a sentinel to show up so I can try it next, but it's gonna be hard to live up to all the extra abilities that 25pts for the chimera gives you.
I was torn between the Chimera and Armoured Sentinels myself, but for the upcoming tourney I may be fielding two of the latter, one with an autocannon, the other with a missile launcher.
Unless the enemy specifically tools up for anti-armour they should be quite durable, especially in melee with their AV 12 up front.
So played a few games last night against legion of the damned and deathwatch with my dark elder 5 x scourges with 3 blasters and 8 wyches with c.c.w the scourges were the best super mobile a blaster shot then if needed splinters I always kept them in 2s for support. Wyches didn't do anything in ether game just could close fast enough before they got shot . I wiped the 6 man legion guys out both times but got badly beaten buy dug in deathwatch with stalkers the other 2 times
BrookM wrote: I was torn between the Chimera and Armoured Sentinels myself, but for the upcoming tourney I may be fielding two of the latter, one with an autocannon, the other with a missile launcher.
Unless the enemy specifically tools up for anti-armour they should be quite durable, especially in melee with their AV 12 up front.
Yeah Im torn as well.
Sentinels fill a double roll of hwt and close combat, whereas a Chimera is more a Swiss army knife with all its various rules and weapons.
You really need to build around either to make them work, but man they can pay off
Alright, so I've had a while to compile a few ideas I like. Almost none of them have specialist rules to them, but I can at least plan ahead with the list making and go from there. Here's what I've got so far:
Nurglite Team
Spoiler:
3x Plague drones (3 specialists)
1x Plague Bringer (ld)
Either death's heads or greater reward on leader
Khornate Team
Spoiler:
Bloodcrushers of Khorne
3x Bloodcrushers (3 specialists)
1x Bloodhunter with lesser reward (ld)
Slaaneshi Team
Spoiler:
Seekers of Slaanesh
13x Seekers (3 specialists)
1x Heartseeker with greater reward (ld)
Tzeentchian Team
Spoiler:
Screamers of Tzeentch
8x Screamers (ld and 3 specialists)
Inquisition Team
Spoiler:
Crusader (leader)
Jokaero Weaponsmith (relentless)
Death Cult Assassin (some combat buff/stealth)
Acolyte in power armor w/plasma (preferred enemy)
5xAcolyte in power armor w/hot shot lasgun
Acolyte in power armor w/bolter
Death Korps Scions (Grenadiers)
Spoiler:
Death Korps Grenadier Squad
Watchmaster (ld) with power sword and hot shot laspistol
Heavy flamer team (specialist)
Melta grenadier (bonus range?)
Plasma grenadier (preferred enemy)
5x grenadiers with hotshot lasguns
Cyclops demo team
Eldar Corsairs Team
Spoiler:
Corsair Reaver Band -jetpacks
Felarch with ccw/pistols and venom blade
5x corsairs with pistols
1x flamer corsair (specialist)
2x fusion corsairs (specialists)
1x fusion corsair
Warp Spiders
Exarch with power blades and spinnerette rifle (ld)
7x Warp Spiders (3 specialists)
Grey Knights Team
Spoiler:
Interceptors
Justicar with hammer (ld)
3× Interceptors with halberds (2 specialists)
2x Interceptors with swords
1x Interceptor with incinerator (specialist)
Necron Team (This exact simple list won our store's Kill Team tournament last year)
Spoiler:
Triarch Praetorians
7x Praetorians (ld and 3 specialists)
Tau Auxilliary Team (This placed high among the rankings as well, though falls apart at break tests. Stick to the ruins!)
Mr ghoti wrote: Necron Team (This exact simple list won our store's Kill Team tournament last year)
Triarch Praetorians
7x Praetorians (ld and 3 specialists)
Really?
That won?
I mean, yes, T5 3+ 5+++ jump infantry with 12" S5 AP2 guns/CC attacks is pretty cool, but... a squad of only 7 guys was able to beat everything else everyone had?
...
How?
Mr ghoti wrote: Necron Team (This exact simple list won our store's Kill Team tournament last year)
Triarch Praetorians
7x Praetorians (ld and 3 specialists)
Really?
That won?
I mean, yes, T5 3+ 5+++ jump infantry with 12" S5 AP2 guns/CC attacks is pretty cool, but... a squad of only 7 guys was able to beat everything else everyone had?
...
How?
You list all that stuff off like it's really trivial, thats a pretty solid setup to have 7 and that's not even counting that some will have specialist abilities.
Mr ghoti wrote: Necron Team (This exact simple list won our store's Kill Team tournament last year)
Triarch Praetorians
7x Praetorians (ld and 3 specialists)
Really?
That won?
I mean, yes, T5 3+ 5+++ jump infantry with 12" S5 AP2 guns/CC attacks is pretty cool, but... a squad of only 7 guys was able to beat everything else everyone had?
...
How?
You list all that stuff off like it's really trivial, thats a pretty solid setup to have 7 and that's not even counting that some will have specialist abilities.
Oh, I know well how good Praets can be, I'm just surprised they were able to do THAT WELL against some of the other lists out there. I'm especially curious about how it would handle something like a spam list that might easily have triple or more the number of models on the table.
Speaking from a Guard perspective, lasguns only get you so far, especially when target has FNP (I'm assuming that's what 5+++ means)
You have to remember, most hordes will be using S3-4 weaponry tops, with a few special weapons that a list like that could pick out with ease. Hunt down the enemy leader next, and then all you have to do is force a break check.
However something like infiltrate the camp would really hurt the necrons list of course. At least a few would make it past, so it'd be down to figuring out a way to slow down the horde player, perhaps even something as insane as just placing your models in chokepoints and going full 300. After all, tables should be thick with terrain, so you could force your opponent through chokes or make them struggle through difficult terrain
Infiltrate the camp is a fun mission, players in the upcoming tourney have a 50% chance of getting that mission on the day itself, unless they prefer to play it.
I doubt we'll be seeing any hordes come into play with the current selection of sign ups: Necrons, Tau (already mentioned going in suit heavy), Inquisition, Deathwatch and my own Militarum Tempestus. Though the sixth slot is still open, we'll see who snatches that one up.
Playing Chaos, and Daemonkin specifically, I find it INCREDIBLY hard to come up with anything for Kill Team because everything is so damn expensive (and for KDK I can't take squads of 5 and I have to pay for MoK). So everything I think of it seems to be just completely outclassed by anyone who even remotely tries to put together a kill team (i.e. anything more than a regular tactical squad/fire warrior team/etc.)
It sucks, I wanted to pitch to my GW the idea of a small Kill Team campaign but not when I can't think of anything I could field that would make me want to play it in myself.
WayneTheGame wrote: Playing Chaos, and Daemonkin specifically, I find it INCREDIBLY hard to come up with anything for Kill Team
Flesh Hounds?
Bikes?
Cultists?
Guys in Rhino?
I would have thought CSM & Daemons had a fairly decent selection of things that would work well in KT? (even in you did have to pay the Khorne tax)
WayneTheGame wrote: Playing Chaos, and Daemonkin specifically, I find it INCREDIBLY hard to come up with anything for Kill Team
Flesh Hounds?
Bikes?
Cultists?
Guys in Rhino?
I would have thought CSM & Daemons had a fairly decent selection of things that would work well in KT? (even in you did have to pay the Khorne tax)
Pretty sure you can't take just Flesh Hounds because they are all beasts. I have to check more, at just 200 points I find it's like one squad of guys and that's it, which seems fine but not sure with everything people seem to be fitting in.
adamsouza wrote: There is no Kill Team restriction about taking beasts, at least not in the 6E version.
Kill Team is frequently just a single a squad.
Maybe I'm thinking of something else then, maybe you can't give specialists to beasts.
I know KT is frequently a single squad, but I am seeing a lot of lists that look fairly nasty when you bring just a regular squad. Might have to just "man up" and give it a whirl.
Hmm, new KTdoes say beasts and swarms can't be leaders or specialists... but apart from the "must have at least 4 non-vehicle models" restriction, is there anything saying you can't just take all beasts and forgo having specialists? (though I guess you probably wouldn't be able to get out of taking a leader).
Even if you can't, just take some Cultists with your Khorne Dogs. That list would still not be a pushover by any means.
alanmckenzie wrote: Is there anything about this new version of Kill Team which prevents building teams from FW books?
I'm thinking Renegades and Heretics.
Thanks
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. R&H, Elysians, Krieg, and Corsairs are all fair game.
Now that I think about this Corsairs actually have a lot of tools, between four small-minimum-squad infantry units with lots of small arms/special weapon options, jetbikes, Dedicated Transport Venoms, and the move-shoot-move War Walker.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Our group is going to do it where we get to pick our warlord traits given how big of a swing they can cause.
My group is doing this right now, it's working just fine. They're all so different that we figure some kill teams are going to have a harder time making use of some of them if rolled randomly. Only hiccup we've had with it was my friend was using the Outflank leader trait, and we rolled Infiltrate the Camp and he became the Attacker. Not to worry, he just picked another trait.
skoffs wrote: Hmm, new KTdoes say beasts and swarms can't be leaders or specialists... but apart from the "must have at least 4 non-vehicle models" restriction, is there anything saying you can't just take all beasts and forgo having specialists? (though I guess you probably wouldn't be able to get out of taking a leader).
In the very same bullet point that says you must have four non-vehicle models, it also says those four must become your leader and specialists.
Also, not taking specialists or a leader would break a few of the game modes.
Ah, okay, no pure beast lists.
Still,
Flesh Hounds + Cultists can be pretty good. Just gotta figure out the best ratio (do you want as many FH as you can get away with, or would you want to stick some better weapons (eg. Flamer, Shotgun, Autoguns) in with slightly buffed up Cultists?)
Alternatively, what about a pure Biker list for KDK?
Mobile, tough, shooty, choppy. All things that go well in KT.
Mr ghoti wrote: Necron Team (This exact simple list won our store's Kill Team tournament last year)
Triarch Praetorians
7x Praetorians (ld and 3 specialists)
Really?
That won?
I mean, yes, T5 3+ 5+++ jump infantry with 12" S5 AP2 guns/CC attacks is pretty cool, but... a squad of only 7 guys was able to beat everything else everyone had?
...
How?
Praetorians are hard as nails, dude. In a regular game that can be a mess to deal with, and in Kill team they are unstoppable. I believe he gave one of them bonus range, one feel no pain, and one haywire attacks in case S5 wasn't enough.
T5 3+ 5+++ (and in one case fnp 5+ as well) with S5 AP2 shooting on WS4 BS4 AND S5 AP2 cc attacks crushed everything.
Battlesuits and firewarriors
Space marines and landspeeder
3 tomb blades and a ton of flayed ones
Death company jump packs
Inquisition classic team
Guard vets with chimera
3 scatbikes with guardians
Along a few other teams I can't remember, it just steamrolled. Never lost a match.
I recently played a kill team game at 250 points. It was pretty interesting. I took DW squad Dontas, Edryc Setorax and Jetek Suberei. Rodricus Grytt was my weapons specialist with reaping volley. Drenn Redblade was my close combat specialist with Killer Instinct. Edryc had Promethium charges because who doesn't want ignore cover grenades.
Pretty solid build and I had a lot more special rules since everyone is basically a specialist already and now I just gave them more rules. Rodricus with reaping volley is nasty. He was my VIP almost every game.
Mr ghoti wrote: Necron Team (This exact simple list won our store's Kill Team tournament last year)
Triarch Praetorians
7x Praetorians (ld and 3 specialists)
Really?
That won?
I mean, yes, T5 3+ 5+++ jump infantry with 12" S5 AP2 guns/CC attacks is pretty cool, but... a squad of only 7 guys was able to beat everything else everyone had?
...
How?
Praetorians are hard as nails, dude. In a regular game that can be a mess to deal with, and in Kill team they are unstoppable. I believe he gave one of them bonus range, one feel no pain, and one haywire attacks in case S5 wasn't enough.
T5 3+ 5+++ (and in one case fnp 5+ as well) with S5 AP2 shooting on WS4 BS4 AND S5 AP2 cc attacks crushed everything.
Praets very well may be hard as nails, but WS4 BS4 T5 3+ 5++ isn't exactly rare for Necrons (like half the book has those stats).
I'm trying to figure out what 200 points of pure Praetorians would bring to the table that equal points of similar spec units (hard, fast, killy) would not.
Spoiler:
Praetorians:
Movement- good
Shooting- great (but short)
Combat- excellent
Survivability- par (for Necrons)
Destroyers:
Movement- good
Shooting- excellent
Combat- par
Survivability- great (jsj)
Tomb Blades:
Movement- excellent
Shooting- good (w/ ignore cover)
Combat- par
Survivability- great (jink)
[Not including Lychguard because they're too slow to consider for competitive KT and Wraiths because you can't make a list with pure beasts]
They've all got one thing they're excellent/great/good/par at ... I guess it's the added CC capability pushes them over the edge?
(still think a mix of 5 Praets+3 TB would be superior)
Also, I'm confused why someone would intentionally give FnP to a Necron that naturally comes with RP. FAQ states the two abilities do not stack. It's one or the other, not both.
White Scars seem to have a decent number of options and advantages in Kill Team. Here's my plan, based on my model availability:
5 x Scouts - 84
- Camo cloaks
- 4 x sniper rifles
- Missile launcher
3 x bikes + attack bike - 113
- Multi-melta
Having the multimelta and a missile launcher and krak grenades may be overkill - I'll have to try it out and see. It does have good range, survivability and mobility, though the number may be a little low. They could also suffer in buildings or ruins - not the bikes' preferred terrain choice!
Other options include swapping the bikes for a couple of landspeeders, or dropping the scouts for a much larger squad of bikes. I should probably look at getting my Landspeeder Storm together and painted as well - that could be a very nice addition at this points level.
Chaos also have plenty of options, although a lot of things would be a challenge due to cost. Probably the scariest thing I can think of is:
10 x Cultists - 30
5 x Chaos Spawn - 150
15 models, 25 wounds (15 of them at T5), and the best ones are also fearless. The spawn have the strength to take most vehicles in close combat, although would suffer against sentinels. The biggest weaknesses are probably running up against an Instant Death specialist, or any thing that is faster them such as bikes or jetbikes...
For a slightly more balance force, Chaos Marines are OK but not outstanding. Only getting access to a heavy weapon at 10 men is a pain, but the autocannon seems like a good kill team option, threatening both vehicles and infantry. Chaos Space, coming in at 30 points for one, also seem like a good top-up here:
10 x Chaos Space Marines|| - 170
- Autocannon
- Meltagun
1 x Chaos Spawn - 30
The biggest problem here is probably the lack of mobility - fast or long-ranges armies could cause a lot of trouble.
alanmckenzie wrote: Is there anything about this new version of Kill Team which prevents building teams from FW books?
I'm thinking Renegades and Heretics.
Thanks
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. R&H, Elysians, Krieg, and Corsairs are all fair game.
Now that I think about this Corsairs actually have a lot of tools, between four small-minimum-squad infantry units with lots of small arms/special weapon options, jetbikes, Dedicated Transport Venoms, and the move-shoot-move War Walker.
Reading over Doom of Mymeara for KT I remembered that all Corsair detachments require a Prince...and KT Detachments do not have a HQ slot. I am sure you could get almost anyone to agree to overlook that one rule...but going by the book it would seem you cannot take Corsairs in KT...
Specialists: feel no pain (flamer guy), preferred enemy (plasmagunner), haywire (random bolter guy) in case of vihicles, otherwise shred (on random claw).
The good thing about space wolfies (and particularly lone wolves) is that literally all of the leader's traits are at least good, and 1st, 3rd, and 6th are like daaaayum dat's gud
Thought of this, seems like it might work and be fluffy:
Khorne Daemonkin - "The Red Dawn Uprising" 8x Cultists, "The Cult of the Red Dawn" w/Autopistol and CCW - 58 8x Chaos Space Marines, "The Manflayers" w/Bolt Pistols, CCWs, 1x Meltagun - 140 (Leader = Aspiring Champion)
Have not given thought to specialists honestly, although 100% certain it would be on the CSMs. Honestly would have liked to give the Champion something special, but not enough points. *grumbling* lousy GW not giving Mark of Khorne for free */grumbling*
I guess technically speaking, since KDK rules aren't in effect anyways in Kill Team you could do it with standard CSM, drop the squad to 7 and get an upgrade on the Champion, but that's unfluffy and IMHO not in the spirit of the game to do so.
WayneTheGame wrote: 8x Cultists, "The Cult of the Red Dawn" w/Autopistol and CCW - 58
8x Chaos Space Marines, "The Manflayers" w/Bolt Pistols, CCWs, 1x Meltagun - 140 (Leader = Aspiring Champion)
It kinda lacks speed...
You might drop the Cultists to bump the Marines up and give them a Rhino... but that wouldn't exactly be fluffy.
Yeah that's true. I think personally if I would do anything with kill team I would bump it up very slightly to 250 points instead of 200. Same rules and everything just tiny bit more. In my case I could then add a rhino and get that upgrade for my Champion that I want.
I'm probably mistaken then. It WAS a year ago. I ran the tomb blade/flayed one list. I played his list the first round and got trounced. I came in second as I won every other match, but his list was just efficient at pinpointing what could feasibly hurt him, take it out, and then rely on his insane (for Kill team standards) durability to systematically remove models left and right.
Mr ghoti wrote: his list was just efficient at pinpointing what could feasibly hurt him, take it out, and then rely on his insane (for Kill team standards) durability
Heh, interestingly enough, of all the T5 3+ models Necrons have, Praetorians actually have some of the worst survivability.
- Destroyers have jump-shoot-jump and range to keep them alive longer.
- Tomb Blades have range and jink.
- Wraiths and Lychguard have 3++ inv saves.
In fact, the reason most Necron players tend to not take Praets in normal lists is because they're considered kind of a glass cannon (not helped by the fact that you have to get danger close to be effective)... but if he's figured out a way to make them shine, hey hey! more power to him!
TL;DR- they're good, I'm just surprised to hear they did as well as they had.
CragHack wrote: Do henchmen count as troops (because they do follow the same '1 HQ, 2 troops' FOC?) or as elites?
Sadly yes, Henchmen Squads are an Elites choice, so you are limited to 12 infantry models in an Inquisition Kill Team, plus their chosen Transport option.
They don't. They get a special Detachment called an Inquisition Detachment that consists of 1-2 HQ (i.e. Inquisitors) and 0-3 Elites (i.e. Henchmen Squads). This of course limits them severely in Kill Team, since you can only have a single Henchmen Squad (and their Dedicated Transport) due to having no Troops or Fast Attack options.
Ambience 327 wrote: This of course limits them severely in Kill Team, since you can only have a single Henchmen Squad (and their Dedicated Transport)
maybe so, but a single henchmen unit + chimera can still pack a punch.
1.acolyte + plasmagun
2.acolyte + meltagun
3.acolyte + flamer
4.servitor + heavy bolter
5.servitor + heavy bolter
6.servitor + heavy bolter
7. assassin
8. assassin
9. assassin
10. acolyte +armor with bolter
11. acolyte +armor with bolter
12. acolyte +armor with bolter
chimera with heavy flamer + Heavy bolter
I have to think it ill-advised to sink 60 points into units that are going to legit do nothing 50% of the time in KT. The points would perhaps be better spent on more assassins or some sicker wargear on other acolytes. In fact if you can free up 10 more points (like taking a rhino instead) 2 space monkeys can be a pretty nice backfield. I mean Eagle Eye on a monkey that rolls + 12" range...holy melta range batman! Just saiyan.
Ambience 327 wrote: This of course limits them severely in Kill Team, since you can only have a single Henchmen Squad (and their Dedicated Transport)
maybe so, but a single henchmen unit + chimera can still pack a punch.
1.acolyte + plasmagun
2.acolyte + meltagun
3.acolyte + flamer
4.servitor + heavy bolter
5.servitor + heavy bolter
6.servitor + heavy bolter
7. assassin
8. assassin
9. assassin
10. acolyte +armor with bolter
11. acolyte +armor with bolter
12. acolyte +armor with bolter
chimera with heavy flamer + Heavy bolter
I have to think it ill-advised to sink 60 points into units that are going to legit do nothing 50% of the time in KT. The points would perhaps be better spent on more assassins or some sicker wargear on other acolytes. In fact if you can free up 10 more points (like taking a rhino instead) 2 space monkeys can be a pretty nice backfield. I mean Eagle Eye on a monkey that rolls + 12" range...holy melta range batman! Just saiyan.
Dont got my codex with me, but iam pretty sure servitors can switch their powerfist with a heavy bolter for free. So thats 30 points for 3 heavy bolters that shoot half the time. Iam a glas half full kinda guy..
Because both types of infantry (vanguard and rangers) seem pretty good. Rangers have great range and move through cover, while the vanguard are cheaper and have that nifty little rifle.
Also, unless battlescribe is bugged, apparently their sarge gets 2 wounds. Thats very handy in kill team.
I really hate that theres only really two tree for shooting armies, Skitarii always have relentless so it doesnt really help us, and other than executioner in Dirty fighter there really ain't a lot there to use.
The Chimera might be better off with psybolt ammunition to help it hurt light tanks, rather than a heavy flamer. And taking some monkeys rather than the servitors.
Crazyterran wrote: The Chimera might be better off with psybolt ammunition to help it hurt light tanks, rather than a heavy flamer. And taking some monkeys rather than the servitors.
Psybolt cost another 10 points that I rather spend on 2x meltabombs. Also Monkeys are too expensive to get shot down first turn, because their very fragile.
Because both types of infantry (vanguard and rangers) seem pretty good. Rangers have great range and move through cover, while the vanguard are cheaper and have that nifty little rifle.
Also, unless battlescribe is bugged, apparently their sarge gets 2 wounds. Thats very handy in kill team.
I really hate that theres only really two tree for shooting armies, Skitarii always have relentless so it doesnt really help us, and other than executioner in Dirty fighter there really ain't a lot there to use.
I actually went 3-0 last weekend with a Skitarii team. I don't think it's optimized but it was
Vanguard x10, Alpha took rad carbine and Conversion field for 4++, 3 of the others took Arc Rifles (str 6 + haywire rapid fire seems like a decent all-rounder to me, but I plan to experiment with others at some point)
Dragoon with Radium Jezzail - Sniper + Rad Poisoning. Giving it a gun instead of the lance seemed fine to me for KT because at strength 5 it should be able to hurt anything in melee anyway, and I wanted it to shoot as it moved around.
The strength 3 guns were definitely offset by rad poisoning. None of my opponents had vehicles, so I was just shooting the arc rifles into whatever.
I went against an Inquisition band that I don't remember the exact composition of and tabled it, but he did explode my dragoon to open the game lol.
Eldar with shining spears and dire avengers was my round 2, it was very nail-biting, but he got unlucky and failed not one but two 6" charges in the same turn with a couple jetbikes, so I got a chance to shoot them down.
Tyranid warriors and raveners after that, 3 of each. It was pretty close, actually, but rad poisoning won out because I guess raveners only have a 5+ armor? So any wounds I rolled just went through on those guys, but he got into cc a couple times.
My specialists were all carbines, one got killer instinct (changing this for sure, I just figured I'd try it in case he got into cc, but since I don't want to be in cc anyway, I'm gonna explore other stuff), then I gave one +1 BS (this may change to Eagle Eye on an Arc Rifle, though it helped a couple times), and the last Infiltrate (this played havoc when I outflanked on a couple guys). The specialist roles I'm going to continue to experiment with.
Dont got my codex with me, but iam pretty sure servitors can switch their powerfist with a heavy bolter for free. So thats 30 points for 3 heavy bolters that shoot half the time. Iam a glas half full kinda guy..
Oh you are right. They are 10 each with heavy bolters. Still seems like a pretty big gamble...but 30 is far less painful than 60. Whatever floats your inquisitional boat.
One warrior was obviously the leader, and the other two had +1BS and FNP. I gave the one fleshborer gaunt Infiltrate. Opponent was playing rough riders and guard vets, interestingly had the same number of models as me, 17. We both rolled the +2 to seize leader trait.
Were playing on a very terrain-dense city board, and I won the roll off and gave him first turn, as I outranged his CC weapon choices. Unfortunately this allowed him to charge my infiltrating gaunt (should've outflanked it for line breaker) and kill it for first blood. From there it was downhill though - I managed to kill about 4-5 of his guys with my 48 devourer shots. He rapidly realised he needed to take cover to get close, which led to him taking a few gaunts out, but the problem he had was his rough riders were just too fast for the rest of his list. They ranged ahead and either got shot to bits, or in a few cases made charges VS warriors, put a wound on, then were promptly chopped to bits. They'd probably have been better just picking off lone gaunts. Ultimately the weight of devourers proved just too much though really, and i managed to take him down to just one rider with only about 5 casualties (he did melta my leader in the face though!)
I think this Nid list has a fair bit of potential, though it is absolutely terrified of Str8 - if the Warriors die, it's going to be all over very quickly. I was fortunate the guard player was running a CC list, and hadn't stocked up on missile launchers and plasma. I think adjusting to a Barbed Strangler warrior (leader), and two others with +50% range and either FNP or EW depending on the foe might be a good idea. I think Infiltrate is the best option for the gaunt so I have something to contest Infiltrators/Outflank if need be, even if the instinctive behaviour is likely to be a pain. It's just whether to give it to devourer gaunt instead...
So what's the best Daemons can do? Having access to only 1 FA slot when pretty much all of our best options are there is rather limiting as is a complete lack of any meaningful shooting since there's no psychic phase. There's also not much in the way of upgrades except ap2 weapons for sergeants.
Is 8 Screamers with a few specialists tossed around really the best we can do? They seem like the most durable thanks to 4+ jink rerolling ones (barring plague drones but these strike me as a little too expensive for kt) and have the only form of pseudo shooting available in the form of their turbo boost slash attack. They're obviously very mobile for objectives purposes and have no trouble opening cans with S5 AP2 armorbane. What specialists would you use in an all screamer list?
Hounds are cheaper per wound but not as fast and cant be specialists, meaning you must add either a troop or an elites choice.
Seekers are plenty fast and killy, but seem like they'd be killing themselves as often as not with dangerous terrain tests and only a 5++
What about 5 Screamers and 3 Flamers? Still fast and durable but at least something of a shooting presence. Specialists would you use in this scenario?
I've used 8 Screamers to great effect. Their high mobility, 2 wounds, and the ability to choose between multiple attacks, or a single AP 2 attack, was a lethal combination. Admittedly, most of my opponents favor MEQ forces, so it may just be rock/paper/scissors.
What specialists did you go for? I'm thinking Indomitable - FNP, Dirty Fighter - Exploit Weakness (rending), and either a Combat Specialist with Killer Instinct (wound on 2+) or a Guerrilla Specialist with infiltrate or scout. Seeing as the Screamers should have little trouble getting where they need to go I'd lean toward killer instinct
You can totally have an inquisition team with almost all servitors, but how does mindlock work inside a transport?
1x priest with laspistol/chainsword/meltabombs
10x heavy bolters servitors
Chimera with heavy bolters turret, heavy bolters hull weapon, storm bolter, psybolt ammunition.
That's a lot of S5-6 shooting coming out of or near a metal box.
30 S5 AP4 shots, 2 S5 AP5 shots, and 6 S6 AP4 shots. Plus I guess lasgun arrays if you have extra guys in the chimera. How many can shoot out the top again?
astro_nomicon wrote: What specialists did you go for? I'm thinking Indomitable - FNP, Dirty Fighter - Exploit Weakness (rending), and either a Combat Specialist with Killer Instinct (wound on 2+) or a Guerrilla Specialist with infiltrate or scout. Seeing as the Screamers should have little trouble getting where they need to go I'd lean toward killer instinct
Mr ghoti wrote: You can totally have an inquisition team with almost all servitors, but how does mindlock work inside a transport?
1x priest with laspistol/chainsword/meltabombs
10x heavy bolters servitors
Chimera with heavy bolters turret, heavy bolters hull weapon, storm bolter, psybolt ammunition.
That's a lot of S5-6 shooting coming out of or near a metal box.
30 S5 AP4 shots, 2 S5 AP5 shots, and 6 S6 AP4 shots. Plus I guess lasgun arrays if you have extra guys in the chimera. How many can shoot out the top again?
2 of whatever you want out the top, 3 lasguns per side fired by occupants at bs 3, which can target different units.
I would consider a hull heavy flamer on the Chimera though. That can be really handy to clear an objective in the night fighting objective
Mr ghoti wrote: You can totally have an inquisition team with almost all servitors, but how does mindlock work inside a transport?
1x priest with laspistol/chainsword/meltabombs
10x heavy bolters servitors
Chimera with heavy bolters turret, heavy bolters hull weapon, storm bolter, psybolt ammunition.
That's a lot of S5-6 shooting coming out of or near a metal box.
30 S5 AP4 shots, 2 S5 AP5 shots, and 6 S6 AP4 shots. Plus I guess lasgun arrays if you have extra guys in the chimera. How many can shoot out the top again?
Five models out the top, and Inquisitorial Chimeras don't actually have lasgun arrays. Given that Mindlock operates normally inside transports I can't recommend doing this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrMoustaffa wrote: ...2 of whatever you want out the top, 3 lasguns per side fired by occupants at bs 3, which can target different units...
As of the current Codex Inquisitorial Chimeras aren't exactly the same thing as Guard Chimeras.
Mr ghoti wrote: You can totally have an inquisition team with almost all servitors, but how does mindlock work inside a transport?
1x priest with laspistol/chainsword/meltabombs
10x heavy bolters servitors
Chimera with heavy bolters turret, heavy bolters hull weapon, storm bolter, psybolt ammunition.
That's a lot of S5-6 shooting coming out of or near a metal box.
30 S5 AP4 shots, 2 S5 AP5 shots, and 6 S6 AP4 shots. Plus I guess lasgun arrays if you have extra guys in the chimera. How many can shoot out the top again?
Five models out the top, and Inquisitorial Chimeras don't actually have lasgun arrays. Given that Mindlock operates normally inside transports I can't recommend doing this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrMoustaffa wrote: ...2 of whatever you want out the top, 3 lasguns per side fired by occupants at bs 3, which can target different units...
As of the current Codex Inquisitorial Chimeras aren't exactly the same thing as Guard Chimeras.
Ooh you have the old 55pt ones then, nice. So yeah you get a 10pt discount, 5 generic firepoints, and no downsides.
Yeah that's a nice thing to have, really surprised GW hasn't FAQs that honestly
astro_nomicon wrote: So what's the best Daemons can do?
[...]
What about 5 Screamers and 3 Flamers? Still fast and durable but at least something of a shooting presence. Specialists would you use in this scenario?
Right now I contemplate the use of 4 Flamers and 6 Flesh Hounds. I think that those flamer weapons of the flamers are going to pay off against horde styled lists as well as those low armor hiding in the shadow lists.
Though I do not have any clue on what specialists traits to choose.
Snikrot
7 kommandos with a nob(pk), big shoota, and burna
This worked pretty well for me in a 3 way free for all last night. I infiltrated into a ruin while the burna and snikrot outflanked. The skitarii rangers shot at the big shoota since it was the only one they could see and he went to ground for a 2+ cover save. The deathwatch shot the skitarii and advanced towards my boys. Turn two the burna fried half the skitarii who were huddled in a building. The big shoota missed and nobody of mine died while a deathwatch guy got sniped. Turn three the burna died and snikrot came on. The nob that had come out of the building charged the guy with the auspec and killed him with the pk. 3 boys kill a marine and retreat to cover. The skitarii retreat to the top level of the building while snikrot and the nob chase. A grenade kills 2 skitarii and the leaders head is taken by snikrot. Skitarii are wiped out. The deathwatch black shield kills a boy and then gets charged by 3 more. He kills one before being taken down. 1 of the heavy bolters is killed by the big shoota and the other flees resulting in an ork victory. Out of 16 enemy models the kommandos killed 13 of them.
Skrak head smashas skull nobs works ok too but skirarii destroy them with ap4.
Guard lists I might use:
A) Infantry platoon with some heavy weapons/special weapons and a Sentinel
B) Chimera/Taurox vets and a Sentinel
C) Nearly naked vets and a Hellhound or Banewolf
I don't have the Ork codex, but I should have just enough of them for a proper kill team force. With inly an approximate knwoledge of points, I'm thinking of doing one of these lists:
A) Trukkboyz (with Nob/Klawnob?), Grotz and a Deffkopta
B) Boyz, Nob (with powerklaw?), Grotz and 2 Koptas.
I have never played Orks before, and it's been a while since I've done kill team, so I'd like to hear what you think about any of these potential lists!
I don't have the Ork codex, but I should have just enough of them for a proper kill team force. With inly an approximate knwoledge of points, I'm thinking of doing one of these lists:
A) Trukkboyz (with Nob/Klawnob?), Grotz and a Deffkopta
B) Boyz, Nob (with powerklaw?), Grotz and 2 Koptas.
I have never played Orks before, and it's been a while since I've done kill team, so I'd like to hear what you think about any of these potential lists!
If you drop the Nob, you can fit the Trukk Boyz, 15 Grots, Runtherder, and 2 Koptas.
A Nob w/PK is almost 1/4 of your 200 points, an no where near as useful as a the Grots or a Deffkopta.
Use your Trukk to get them up close, and assault with your boyz.
The Grots secure objectives and shoot anything they can.
Deffkoptas to pop anything with an armor value.
Boyz in a trukk with a klaw is pretty good. The klaw helps vs warriors and such. Even though they are all seperate units if the enemy swings first double or triple team them or more depending on how big and scary they are. A trukk full of shoota boys and 3 bikers with nob and pk works pretty well and against a lot of enemies nob squads work too.
What do you guys think of DE Reavers? You can get 9 of them, 3 with cluster caltrops and one with a heat lance or blaster (I prefer heat lance, for its AP1 and therefore a better chance to explode a vehicle or severely disable it). One of the cluster caltrops guy will have stealth for 2+ jink, a regular guy Killer Instinct (wounds on 2+ in CC) for some CC prowess, and the heat lance guy will have his weapon Master-Crafted, 'cause you can't miss that vital shot. Good mobility, 3+ jink (2+ in the mission with night fighting every turn), and a lot of HoW hits (3D6 S6 Rending with the cluster caltrop guys alone).
Teschio wrote: What do you guys think of DE Reavers? You can get 9 of them, 3 with cluster caltrops and one with a heat lance or blaster (I prefer heat lance, for its AP1 and therefore a better chance to explode a vehicle or severely disable it). One of the cluster caltrops guy will have stealth for 2+ jink, a regular guy Killer Instinct (wounds on 2+ in CC) for some CC prowess, and the heat lance guy will have his weapon Master-Crafted, 'cause you can't miss that vital shot. Good mobility, 3+ jink (2+ in the mission with night fighting every turn), and a lot of HoW hits (3D6 S6 Rending with the cluster caltrop guys alone).
I was thinking of making a list of 10, 6 naked, 1 arena champion, 2 blasters, and 1 heat lance. Give either a blaster sharpshooter to ignore cover or the heatlance Eagle Eye for a 13.5" melta range, give one stealth to be more survivable, and another promethium charges so it can actually swing at initiative for once in its life. The ignores cover is used to pick out enemy specialists with its 12" move, 18" range, and then 2d6" running away. Just move forwards, shoot what you can, then go hide in a corner. I considered the caltrop list you presented, but was worried about charging a model, killing it with caltrops, and being stuck next to its friends (who might have a flamer). Though, it does feel strange not taking an even multiple of 3.
For shooty jetbike lists, there are much better options (eldar windriders...). The idea was to use caltrops for maximum effectiveness, because they are really potent in Kill Team: unless you roll a really low number of hits, most models should die before you even get to attack. Sure, flamers (and other cover ignoring weapons) are a problem, even though they still have to wound T4 (possibly 5 with combat drugs, and there's PfP's FnP too), but you can just focus those models with shooting until they die, and then go for assault.
Got in a game yesterday with my 14 genestealer list (hatred, shred and scout). My opponent was running 10 marines with a plasma cannon and HB. They had relentless and split fire respectively, and one other guy got PE. We both rolled the leader trait that let them become a specialist, so I took fearless and him CA. We were doing alone in the dark, which had virtually no impact as I infiltrated everything and only one of his guys was forced to outflank.
Despite our board being pretty terrain-sparse, his small model count and a few LoS blockers allowed me to set most of my army up closer than 18", which was pretty nice. I took first turn and got as close as I could whilst maintaining a bit of cover - he still managed to down 5 genes with his first volley. However, next turn I got about 5-6 guys in and killed 3 marines. We both broke pretty sharpish, with him getting a bit unlucky with a poor round of shooting when it really mattered. It ended up with me tabling him t4-5, with 3 genes left.
I think the specialist traits here were reasonably solid, could perhaps have gone for assault grenades on the third guy though. Ultimately I'm not as convinced by this team as the 3 warriors +14 termas list though, as its pretty one-dimensional and relies very heavily on being able to use cover to get close. I was lucky my foe didn't spread out more and give himself more LoS and deny me the ability to mob him as easily. Against a more experienced player you'd have to be extremely careful with a list like this.
@Benlisted I thought infiltrate didn't work in kill team?
Quick question: is it worth it to upgrade trukkboyz to 'ard boyz? It seems like failing break tests/LD tests is a real problem, as mob rule doesn't work and everything but bikers, deffkoptas and vehicles have 6+. Ld7 being the norm hurts in kill team, and for grots it's even worse. Also, giving nobs big choppas seems like an actually not terrible decision, as it's 5 pts for the ability to attack 4 times at S7 on the charge.
Quick question: is it worth it to upgrade trukkboyz to 'ard boyz? It seems like failing break tests/LD tests is a real problem, as mob rule doesn't work and everything but bikers, deffkoptas and vehicles have 6+. Ld7 being the norm hurts in kill team, and for grots it's even worse. Also, giving nobs big choppas seems like an actually not terrible decision, as it's 5 pts for the ability to attack 4 times at S7 on the charge.
Nah, it's only reserves that doesn't function, aside from outflankers. After all, one of the specialist traits conveys infiltrate.
In some of my lists I plan on running a vanilla Taurox Prime (so with a Taurox battle cannon), but what should I take as the secondary weapons choice? Twin-linked autocannons or twin-linked hotshot volleyguns?
BrookM wrote: In some of my lists I plan on running a vanilla Taurox Prime (so with a Taurox battle cannon), but what should I take as the secondary weapons choice? Twin-linked autocannons or twin-linked hotshot volleyguns?
Seeing as the Taurox BC is basically a small blast autocannon, I would initially recommend the volleyguns for versatility/MEQ-killing power rather than more S 7. However, you should always take into account how you're kitting out your troops, but in a vacuum I'd take the AP 3.
adamsouza wrote: The new Goliath Rockgrinder transport may be Kill Team legal
The Rockgrinder has a heavy stubber, a short ranged Lascannon, carries 6, and leaves you 125 points for the rest of your kill team.
It just needs to fall into the FA slot, or be a dedicated transport, to be one of the meanest Kill Team vehicle options of all time.
It definitely looks nasty. It's basically a Chimera but better in almost every way but transport capacity for only 10 more points. Not to mention it has 6 firepoints, meaning that it's full transport capacity can contribute no matter what, thats a big deal.
The real question will be what can go in it. If the neophyte squads can't bring anything good for drive bys with 6 men itll be a bit of a moot point.
In kill team that thing's going to be terrifying. I can just imagine that monstrosity rumbling over squads of guardsmen while the cultists gun down the survivors, cackling madly. Its shape in the pics means that it'll be moderately easy to keep the AV12 pointed at at the enemy, unless they're spread out or really mobile, and the weapons are pretty good when you take into account the smaller table size (the mediocre range is less of a problem).
What do you think?
I know guard get a lot of options and I know the bs3 will hurt. But I do like the idea of lots of bodies and a load of special weapons to keep my options open.
Should I go with the vet chimera option?
Plenty of bodies is good, yes, but I would suggest trying to throw a sentinel in there to carry at least one of your heavy weapons. AV 10/10/10 with +1 cover save or AV 12/10/10 may be paper thin in most circumstances, but in KT I don't think most lists will be tailored too heavily against vehicles. Plus sentinels aren't as paper thin as T3 Sv 5+.
I would recommend taking the heavy flamer against anything less armored than marines, but the AC is also economical, and the lascannon is alright if you find yourself unable to deal with the occasional vehicle. Missiles seem too expensive just to get AP 3 on the table, and I tend not to like plasma cannons as they are very expensive for KT, and the risk of removing 1 of 2 HP feels too great for the points cost.
Well the autocannon can be swapped out for heavy bolters. I would rather have number of shots over the ap3 And I agree with you on lascannons and missile launchers are expensive at the points limit.
I know the plasma guns are expensive but I wanted something with low ap.
I could drop some guns and try and squeeze a sentinel in?
Some, here are some shenanigans using the FW Tyrant's Legion list;
Option 1)
In the FA slot for Tyrant's Legion, you can take tarantulas, and take mixed weapons within the unit. They'll be stationary and have set fie modes, but are T6 and have 2 wounds. AND, they aren't beasts or swarms, so you can make them specialists if you want. They might not be mobile, but they'll be able to exert control over part of the field. You could set them up in cover, and buy them camo netting. Not sure that is worth ir for ten points each though.
Option 2)
Renegade Marauder squads can have a pair of 3-wound brutes, with 3 attacks and rending for 30 points each, who will be pretty scary with special skills on them. They can also have two special weapon guys who could have a skill, and 2-wound marauder chieftan to be the leader. You can even buy them a chimera. On top of that, they are automatically stalkers (outflank, stealth and move through cover), murder cultists (furious charge and crusader) or hereteks (4+ save and krak grenades).
Now, the unit can never regroup for any reason after saving a morale check... but that is less of a problem when that applies to everyone anyway!
Fifty wrote: Some, here are some shenanigans using the FW Tyrant's Legion list;
Option 1)
In the FA slot for Tyrant's Legion, you can take tarantulas, and take mixed weapons within the unit. They'll be stationary and have set fie modes, but are T6 and have 2 wounds. AND, they aren't beasts or swarms, so you can make them specialists if you want. They might not be mobile, but they'll be able to exert control over part of the field. You could set them up in cover, and buy them camo netting. Not sure that is worth ir for ten points each though.
Option 2)
Renegade Marauder squads can have a pair of 3-wound brutes, with 3 attacks and rending for 30 points each, who will be pretty scary with special skills on them. They can also have two special weapon guys who could have a skill, and 2-wound marauder chieftan to be the leader. You can even buy them a chimera. On top of that, they are automatically stalkers (outflank, stealth and move through cover), murder cultists (furious charge and crusader) or hereteks (4+ save and krak grenades).
Now, the unit can never regroup for any reason after saving a morale check... but that is less of a problem when that applies to everyone anyway!
Forgeworld armies aren't really balanced for kill team. Citation: this post. I think dread mob could be decent too, but would you have to get the boyz tax?
Sorry for the technical names :-)
What do you all think? My guess is not many people will have any psychic defence so it might be a good little force?
Unfortunately since brotherhood of psykers doesn't work, the zoan is nigh useless. You meed warriors/shrikes if you're taking anything synapse dependent. But as per my battrep a page or so ago, warriors and devilgaunts works pretty well!
I didn't know they where BOP. Nids aren't my strong point. Thanks I will let him know :-)
After reading the BOP rules again why do you think that a zoan will be bad in KT? Since the zoan can be in a unit of one wouldn't that just negate the BOP rules in the first place?
So I was looking at more FW armies/mini-'dexes, and I've done a cursory examination of the following. My conclusions below. (Big block of text incoming)
DKoK: their death riders seem usable. Not much else seems better than codex Guard.
Elysians: their deep strike stuff is useless, but their Tauros options are nice and they can use platoons and vets as usual.
Tempestus scions: nothing going for them. They don't have more than 2 usable units, neither of which are particularly powerful or even unique to the army.
D-99: their elites are pretty nice, they can get flamer spam units, melta spam units, and sniper spam units. The problem will be diversifying and having enough counters to any threat category.
Siege assault vanguard: if your opponent is running a horde army, then the siege objective will be impossible to get and you will lose/tie. Otherwise, their only usable units different from codex marines are their tacticals, which can spend 50pts on siege mantles to become invincible at the cost of being too heavy for rhinos (in kill team, probably a pass) and their siege assault squads, which are actually special gear/heavy weapons squads. If you really want to, you can run them, but expect games to be really wierd.
Armored battlegroup: most of your units have too much armor to be legal in kill team. What's left is almost indistinguishable from normal Guard. I may have missed something, but they seem like a no-go.
Dread mob: the spanna boy tax still applies as far as I know, as it's an army restriction not a FOC thing. They don't pay for shootas but do for stikkbombs, have meks instead of nobs, and their scrap trucks are trash, so that's that. I guess you'd use them as your non-vehicle tax anyway? You probably use dread mob for the vehicles, and the vehicles available that regular orks can't use are grot tanks, which are actually usable through being so cheap, junkas, which can carry all sorts of fun wargear, and kans, which are more heavily armored and slightly more expensive grot tanks that can melee Fire Warriors. Both tanks and Kans have to squad up at least three, so at 200 pts kans aren't usable either. Their grots are more points, and will blow themselves up if they use their grenades due to kill team making them split up, so that's terrible too.
Feel free to correct this, I probably screwed something up.
Useless Sidekick wrote: I didn't know they where BOP. Nids aren't my strong point. Thanks I will let him know :-)
After reading the BOP rules again why do you think that a zoan will be bad in KT? Since the zoan can be in a unit of one wouldn't that just negate the BOP rules in the first place?
The issue with BOP is that they don't have the Psyker special rule, and the Kill Team rules specifically say that models with BOP don't get to use it. So a Zoanthrope pays a hefty points cost to basically be a very low-statted Synapse creature that can't really contribute anything useful to the force other than Synapse. Tyranid Warriors are much better as they can shoot, and fight much better.
Zoanthropes are an odd duck because they were originally full Psyker models, and can still be purchased and fielded alone in proper 40K. RAW I think they get gimped, because of the exclusion of the Psyker rule, but believe RAI they should be playable.
Fifty wrote: Some, here are some shenanigans using the FW Tyrant's Legion list;
Option 1)
In the FA slot for Tyrant's Legion, you can take tarantulas, and take mixed weapons within the unit. They'll be stationary and have set fie modes, but are T6 and have 2 wounds. AND, they aren't beasts or swarms, so you can make them specialists if you want. They might not be mobile, but they'll be able to exert control over part of the field. You could set them up in cover, and buy them camo netting. Not sure that is worth ir for ten points each though.
Option 2)
Renegade Marauder squads can have a pair of 3-wound brutes, with 3 attacks and rending for 30 points each, who will be pretty scary with special skills on them. They can also have two special weapon guys who could have a skill, and 2-wound marauder chieftan to be the leader. You can even buy them a chimera. On top of that, they are automatically stalkers (outflank, stealth and move through cover), murder cultists (furious charge and crusader) or hereteks (4+ save and krak grenades).
Now, the unit can never regroup for any reason after saving a morale check... but that is less of a problem when that applies to everyone anyway!
Or, you know, Legion Auxillia. Two Thirty-man Auxilia units with shotguns for the Prefects. Because facing a 60-strong "kill team" is not something a lot of people will be prepared for.
Or you can take a (slight) dip in numbers to get two twenty-five men units, each with Frag Grenades and a Flamer or grenade launcher. Because fifty frag grenades is something to see.
D-99: their elites are pretty nice, they can get flamer spam units, melta spam units, and sniper spam units. The problem will be diversifying and having enough counters to any threat category.
The Decimation Squad (Sniper team) is.....okay. You can't have the spotter in the same unit as the sniper, so you lose a lot of your benefits, and it's not like the board is big enough to warrant a range increase. The Elimination squad - do you really need monster hunter? I'm trying to think of any monstrous creature you can realistically encounter. Most are either too big, or heavy support, or both.
The Flamer squad, on the other hand, is much more impressive. I've wondered about a Burna Boyz mob for similar reasons.
I need some help with Setting up a KT for myself and a mate. [One other note to consider in giving advice we both have wives/kids and are tough when it comes to spending $$ on hobbies]
I haven't played WH40k in quite a few years [last time you needed to write code for robots] but a mate who has never played table top war games before got hooked on Space hulk [I got the first edition version not the fancy newer one]
He loves the Space Marines Chapter history. I was quite excited to see KT getting released and have ordered a copy [should be arriving tomorrow]
Firstly I have never played Tau I have played Blood angels, Space Wolves, Eldar, Genestealer Cult, Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle armies.
So what would I need to add to the 10 fire warriors to make it a viable list? [I am thinking of doing 5 fire warriors and 5 breachers for starters] I also found a Lone Stingwing mini with a Tau helmet conversion [don't ask this has been in my bitz box for many years] can I use that single mini or do I need 3 or 5 of them etc...
I am sort of leaning towards 3x VX25 stealth suits. I do like the Mech look to the Tau..
And for the SM's I see that Scouts seem to be in quite a few of the SM lists... any thing else he should consider for his KT?
So what would I need to add to the 10 fire warriors to make it a viable list? [I am thinking of doing 5 fire warriors and 5 breachers for starters] I also found a Lone Stingwing mini with a Tau helmet conversion [don't ask this has been in my bitz box for many years] can I use that single mini or do I need 3 or 5 of them etc...
Everything you buy needs to be a codex-legal unit in its own right - it subsequently becomes a lone model once it hits the board, but no buying single stingwings or anything like that.
I am sort of leaning towards 3x VX25 stealth suits. I do like the Mech look to the Tau..
Stealt suits aren't a bad kill-team. Mobile, decent firepower. You might struggle to spend 200 points on a stealthsuit-based team (although drones will help).
And for the SM's I see that Scouts seem to be in quite a few of the SM lists... any thing else he should consider for his KT?
There are plenty of good options. Sternguard can be quite nice. A razorback is not bad if you can afford it - people tend to skimp on antitank, so it actually feels like a decently armed tank. Alternatively a couple of landspeeders give you fast, mobile firepower with the reach to play 'keep-away' from close-range threats (as much as you can on a 4'x4' board)
gnome_idea_what wrote: @axisofentropy RAW it disappears as soon as it deploys. It's one of the things that needs an FAQ to fix.
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
Fair. I will rephrase.
Note that the Every Man for Himself rule actually reads: "...when deploying your Kill Team, and throughout the course of the game, each model is treated as a separate unit..."
It does not say "when you deploy your units, separate each model into a completely new and separate unit that has no relationship at all to the unit that existed before it"
This distinction is clear, because literally the next paragraph outlines how Transports work, and stresses that a Transport may hold models up to its capacity regardless of what unit they were purchased from. However only models purchased as part of a unit may begin the game embarked on that unit's Dedicated Transport. Oh wow, would you look at that? Purchased Unit distinctions don't just magically disappear when the models hit the table. Each model is "treated as a separate unit" for most game play purposes, but rules that refer to a model belonging to a unit they were purchased as a part of still come into play.
More confirmation of this can be found in the Special Rules and Wargear on page 32 under the DS8 Tactical Support Turret: "if a model in a unit remains stationary, in the Movement phase, you can set up the tactical support turret on an area of open ground, within 2" of that model..." And later it goes on to say "it is removed as a casualty if there are no other models from its unit within 2" of it..."
OH BOY, more confirmation that purchase units don't just magically disappear. And how do I know this? Because if we take a gander at the way the rules for the DS8 were printed in Kauyon it reads "if the unit remains stationary..." So they reworded the rules for Kill Team intentionally. They even changed the part about firing Overwatch when the rest of the unit shoots, knowing it will fire by itself as a separate model.
Now I know the dissent will be that this is RAI, but I think it is spelled out plain enough in RAW to understand this concept. And yes it is CLEARLY intended because otherwise they wouldn't have worded the examples I gave the way they did. While I agree this situation isn't as clean as it should be, and that it sets us up in a situation where we have almost units within units, I disagree that an FAQ is needed at all to play Artillery. In fact the strongest argument you have if you are being truly RAW is that it cannot move, not that it will disappear when deployed, since Artillery works very differently from the above DS8 example.
Lord GreyWolf wrote: So what would I need to add to the 10 fire warriors to make it a viable list? [I am thinking of doing 5 fire warriors and 5 breachers for starters]
My suggestion would be get a box of Pathfinders and then do your 5-man Strike Team (with Rifles), 5-man Breacher Team, and another 5-man Pathfinder Team. That puts you at 134 points, so you can then add in some drones and upgrade weapons, and maybe a few more Pathfinders. This will give you a nice mix of weapons (5 Pulse Rifles, 5 Pulse Blasters, some Pulse Carbines on the Pathfinders, plus whatever upgrade weapons/drones you take), so you can handle any possible threats.
Alternatively, the Devilfish transport is one of the most heavily armoured vehicles allowed in Kill Team (it hits the 33 armour limit exactly) and is already armed pretty well stock. Taking the Strike & Breacher Teams plus a Devilfish lands you at 170 points, so you still have some room for upgrades.
So for Demons, I was hoping to be able to run 4 plague drones, 1 as a character with lesser reward, all with poison, but that is 203 points. That one dude running around with 4 ap2 attacks would have been sweet.
Renegades and Heretics though, they seem like they can make some powerful kill teams. My first was as follows.
40 wounds on the table at 200pt. 3 autocannons and a buttload of lasguns!
For kicks and giggles, I could do 9 sentinels with various weapons, mostly heavy flamers. There are a good few options that I could try out for an unusually small amount of points. 3 sentinels is 60pt, 3 spawn is 55pt, so I could mix and match a little, but a light armored kill team could be pretty fun. Too bad I can't bring zombies lol.
gnome_idea_what wrote: @axisofentropy RAW it disappears as soon as it deploys. It's one of the things that needs an FAQ to fix.
[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]
Fair. I will rephrase.
Note that the Every Man for Himself rule actually reads: "...when deploying your Kill Team, and throughout the course of the game, each model is treated as a separate unit..."
It does not say "when you deploy your units, separate each model into a completely new and separate unit that has no relationship at all to the unit that existed before it"
This distinction is clear, because literally the next paragraph outlines how Transports work, and stresses that a Transport may hold models up to its capacity regardless of what unit they were purchased from. However only models purchased as part of a unit may begin the game embarked on that unit's Dedicated Transport. Oh wow, would you look at that? Purchased Unit distinctions don't just magically disappear when the models hit the table. Each model is "treated as a separate unit" for most game play purposes, but rules that refer to a model belonging to a unit they were purchased as a part of still come into play.
More confirmation of this can be found in the Special Rules and Wargear on page 32 under the DS8 Tactical Support Turret: "if a model in a unit remains stationary, in the Movement phase, you can set up the tactical support turret on an area of open ground, within 2" of that model..." And later it goes on to say "it is removed as a casualty if there are no other models from its unit within 2" of it..."
OH BOY, more confirmation that purchase units don't just magically disappear. And how do I know this? Because if we take a gander at the way the rules for the DS8 were printed in Kauyon it reads "if the unit remains stationary..." So they reworded the rules for Kill Team intentionally. They even changed the part about firing Overwatch when the rest of the unit shoots, knowing it will fire by itself as a separate model.
Now I know the dissent will be that this is RAI, but I think it is spelled out plain enough in RAW to understand this concept. And yes it is CLEARLY intended because otherwise they wouldn't have worded the examples I gave the way they did. While I agree this situation isn't as clean as it should be, and that it sets us up in a situation where we have almost units within units, I disagree that an FAQ is needed at all to play Artillery. In fact the strongest argument you have if you are being truly RAW is that it cannot move, not that it will disappear when deployed, since Artillery works very differently from the above DS8 example.
Checked the BRB, and this is what it says about artillery: artillery units consist of crew models and the guns themselves. If the crew is killed, the guns die as well. The unit needs 1 crew/gun to move. ICs that join can't fire the guns. One crew within 2" can fire a gun. When shooting at an artillery unit the gun's toughness is used. Artillery units w/ gun models can't charge. If the unit can't move all it's artillery when falling back the ones left behind are destroyed. When in assault with artillery allocate wounds only to crew.
You're right about artillery, and this is my eccentric interpretation: RAW the crew are defined as crew by being part of the artillery type and not being an artillery model. They aren't defined by being in one unit (as I assumed.) So in kill team, the guns can't move because 1 crewman/unit is needed to move them, whereas they can fire because 1 crew within 2" is required to fire it, and they're still crew if they leave the unit. Likewise the crew doesn't use the gun's T7 in kill team because it needs to be in the same unit. The crew can leave the guns on the other side of the board, and the guns don't go away until they die. The crew can also charge things, as they're separate units from the guns. Interestingly, when you assault an artillery model in kill team you can't allocate wounds to the gun, and there aren't any crew, so RAW artillery in kill team is assault-proof. Somewhere in there is what you were trying to explain to me, right?
TL;DR you're right, I made an assumption based on what I thought were the rules, I figured out how artillery probably works in kill team due to the rules switching back and forth on requirements about being in the same unit. Thank you for pointing that out!
No problem. Sorry if I was brusque...but there have been so many people making weird claims about the way models vs units work in Kill Team. And while I think GW could have been a bit more clear, I think that even RAW is clearer than people are making it out to be. Also it's supposed to be a fun, small pts, quick version of 40k so I am guessing they didn't dream people would be going over it with such a fine toothed comb. But such is the hobby.
I like this a lot - decent firepower, mobility and numbers, and it just feels right as a kill team! Mine is a long way form the table though, still have to assemble and paint my combat scouts and the landspeeder Storm :(
Hit & Run from White Scars can be pretty handy - keeps you from being bogged down in unwanted Close Combat, and allows you to pull out just to charge back in for Charge bonuses. If you are clever, you can even use it to slingshot models further across the board to get where they are needed most.
If you end up using some Bikes or Scout Bikes, so much the better.
Deathwatch
Vet - shotgun
Vet - shotgun
Vet - shotgun
Vet - bolter
Vet - bolter
Vet - combi-plasma
*Weapon Specialist: Sharpshooter
Vet - ccw x2
*Combat Specialist: Killer Instinct
Vet biker - melta bombs
*Indomitable Specialist: Feel no Pain
The Combat Specialist vet is excellent at taking out things that swing at I1 like power fists, power klaws, axes, etc. Putting a lot of wounds out there really helps them take and hopefully fail saves. I find the gamble often pays off, because those models will chew through the rest of your army if you don't take them out when you get the opportunity.
The biker at T5 with a 3+ and then FnP is pretty tough, and is equipped to make the long charges needed to sneak up on transports, etc. It does suck when he misses in though lol
The combi-plasma is just there to put hits and reliable wounds on T5 models like Necron Destroyers, Bikes, etc. and can sometimes help with vehicles.
Love the list, and hope that inspires some people!
(*also, just to add, if you DO take a frag cannon, the guerrilla specialist with infiltrate can really be awesome!)
What do people think of a Raven wing biker comp, you can get 6 bikers in 200 points with a couple of special weapons. They have double jink, hit and run, scout, and Stubborn, which seems like a pretty good collection of rules for kill team.
Grimgold wrote: What do people think of a Raven wing biker comp, you can get 6 bikers in 200 points with a couple of special weapons. They have double jink, hit and run, scout, and Stubborn, which seems like a pretty good collection of rules for kill team.
Yeah, seems pretty good. I think the problem I find myself running into with small, elite armies is that you just fall apart so easily if you roll 1 bad roll... every model lost is just so devastating. Not sure what "double jink" is, but only 6 models may be tough. Just imagine being up against like 40 grots or cultists... or 20 bloodletters, 20 boys, 30+ guardsmen, etc.. it just sucks that since all of your models (when you go all elite like that or Deathwatch) can only kill 1 unit per combat or per shooting... so you lose a lot of the power that things like those bikes have... you can't shoot the unit, kill 2-3, then charge in, killing another 2 and running them down.... etc.
YMMV but I keep finding myself coming to that realization in every single game :(
Sorry meant to say rerollable jink, which puts them between a 2++ and 3++ effective save against ranged so long as no one can ignore cover. So that deals with a few of the space marines bugbears such as plasma and melta. the small number of units would be a problem though, because my necron list is twice the size, 3 bikes and 10 warriors.
I won a small (8 person) Kill Team tournament last week with 3 Black Knights (FNP and Stealth) and 5 Scouts, cloaks, heavy bolter (split fire). Was not a very competitive crowd tho. I'll let you know how they do in another tournament Saturday.
A dozen Scouts with some weapons would probably be p competitive. Infiltrate helps out a lot in Kill Team.
Dead and Company:
2 Death Company with JP/Bolt Pistol and Power Sword
5 Death Company with JP/Bolt Pistol and Chainsword
Operation Veil Shrike:
4 Firewarrior with Pulse Rifle
1 Firewarrior with Pulse Rifle and SMS Tactical Turret
3 Stealth Suit with Burst Cannon
1 Piranha with Fusion Blaster
The Blood Angel list just goes balls to the walls charging anything and everything they can reach before dying gloriously.
The Tau list is my tactical list, The fire warrior team sets up in cover with good firing lanes to support the stealth team. The piranha hunts vehicles and can drop off the drones for an extra 2 gun drones. While the stealth team infiltrates into the perfect spots to JSJ snipe models.
Leader - Purestrain Genestealer
(Preferred Specialist Skill if he gets "Been There, Seen It, Done It" - Furious Charge)
Specialist - Neophyte w/ Mining Laser - Master Craftsman
(Helps make up for BS 3 on his single-shot Mining Laser.)
Specialist - Neophyte w/ Heavy Stubber - Relentless
(Allows him to move around to draw a bead on the best target.)
Specialist - Acolyte w/ Hand Flamer - Murderous Blows
(Increases the chances of both Wounding and Rending.)
22 models which should be able to cope with hordes (Autoguns & Autopistols, Heavy Stubber, Hand Flamer, Grenade Launchers, Blasting Charges, high-Initiative Close Combat with lots of Attacks), vehicles (Mining Laser, Grenade Launchers, S4 Rending Close Combat) and Power Armour (lots of shots, lots of Rending Attacks, etc). No vehicles, so enemy Anti-Tank is virtually wasted. 5 models with Infiltrate, Move Through Cover and Stealth for getting full use of terrain. Am I missing any big holes or glaring issues?
Tried out a couple of new ideas yesterday in a demo game for a new player, Skitarii vs IG
Skitarii
10 Vanguard x2 Arc Rifle
5 Rangers, refractor on the alpha (warlord)
IG
Vet Squad 1: Grenadiers, x2 plasma, Sniper, Autocannon, sarge bolter
Vet Squad 2: Grenadiers, x3 sniper, sarge bolter
Rangers are nice to have with the vanguard to give them some support, but a pure 15 vanguard with another arc rifle is probably the way to go honestly. Vanguard are the bees's knees in kill team. Plus having two wounds on your alphas helps way more than one would think, provided they don't take an autocannon round to the face.
As for the guard, it was a good blend of numbers, firepower, and defense in my opinion. You have a lot of lasguns to move up the board and be aggressive with which gives your snipers and autocannon breathing room. The plasma wait for a good opening and then get a good hit in or two but ultimately are your trump card for an emergency. I'm still not sold on if 4 snipers and 2 bolters is better than just having another autocannon, but I feel the snipers would help more if I was fighting something tougher like ogryn or warriors.
I have used the full Ravenwing bike squad, with six bikes and one attack bike. (The only option you can take is melta bombs on the Sgt. That leaves you riight at 200 pts.) They are pretty good, as they have the speed to get you to the objectives, and they can hold up pretty well. Twin linked is nice.
Even nastier is the Black Knight bike. You can only take five, with no upgrades, but they have two real advantages; Twin Linked Plasma with rapid fire and Skilled Rider. The Skilled rider helps on those terrain filled boards, and the rapid fire is nice, since your speed will usually let you get close enough to use it. Take split fire on one of your specialists, and you can pop a second target per turn if you are facing a larger army. This configuration will get toasted by hordes, though.
One thing I am getting ready to try is a mixed configuration. I want to take a five man tactical squad, and either five Ravenwing bikes, or three Black Knights. Tacticals aren't bad in Kill Team, and the bikes would help me get to and knock out any tougher targets.
Lately, hordes have started to dominate Kill Team up here. It kind of defeats the point of Kill Team when it takes well over two hours to finish a game... Last Weekend we all watched as a 45 man cultist team went up against a 45 man IG team. Kill team is worse than large sale 40k for taking time, as every model is a unit... I might just give in and start painting cultists, though.
Careful with the horde sentiment, when I said something about it a lot of people took serious offence to this, to the point that some witch from Canada tried to get me banned from my store here in the Netherlands.
adamsouza wrote: Kill Team Hordes are slower to play, but it does provide a definitive edge, against smaller elite armies.
In friendly games I am happy to just plop a 7-8 MEQs on the board, but in a tournament I'd bring Horde.
What would people call a horde? Over 20 models? 25? Where does the line fall? Interested more to see where people's perceptions are - and whether they're in the same place.
I think it sorta depends how many upgrades you have. 20 Veterans, with upgrades, I wouldn't consider a horde. A whole Infantry Platoon, sans any upgrades except more bodies, I would.
Edit: But I guess maybe 20 is my limit? That's two 10 man squads, or one 10 and two 5s.
If you want to troll, take a bare-bones infantry platoon with an attached conscript squad, that's forty-five models for 190 pts, leaving you with ten pts to spend on some upgrades or whatnot.
And if you think someone will be taking a force like this, remember every model with grenades can throw one. Twenty stormboyz rokkit packing up and lobbing twenty frag grenades into the mass can thin down numbers a LOT.
As for tourney settings, we're having a small one tomorrow, NO RESTRICTIONS, SO feth OFF witches, with the following armies slated to make an appearance:
* Necrons (may or may not include Forge World units)
* Tau Empire
* Space Wolves
* 2x Death Watch
* Inquisition
* Militarum Tempestus
Though there could always be no-shows or unexpected surprise arrivals, so who knows? I do plan on recording the army lists for posterity and while I won't do bat-reps of all battles (I am partaking myself if there are no extra players involved), I will keep track of the scores and whatnot.
For the sake of variety and keeping things flowing, there are three tables, each built around two missions, with the players rolling beforehand to see what mission they're going to play on that table. Afterwards the players will rotate, so that they'll always play on a different table, against a different opponent, with a different mission. If there is time there may be a fourth round where we go with one of the special scenarios from the back of the book, most likely the one with the Kill Team being pitted against two Troops choices in a last stand. I may ask the Tau player if I can borrow a pile of his plasma suits and his Farsight codex, so we can give the people up for it a hellish challenge.
If this, and a bigger doubles tourney at the end of this month, go well enough, we may do an official Kill Team tourney later this year or early next year using the tournament pack GW has / will put out soon, with official prize support and a bigger pool of players.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
locarno24 wrote: And if you think someone will be taking a force like this, remember every model with grenades can throw one. Twenty stormboyz rokkit packing up and lobbing twenty frag grenades into the mass can thin down numbers a LOT.
Grenade spam is certainly a viable option now, especially if the models also have access to krak grenades or an equivalent thereof.
gwarsh41 wrote: So for Demons, I was hoping to be able to run 4 plague drones, 1 as a character with lesser reward, all with poison, but that is 203 points. That one dude running around with 4 ap2 attacks would have been sweet
With HoW & 4 atx on the charge (5 for the character), do you really need the 3+ poinson? Surely 4+ poison is just fine. You could easily fit 4 Drones, 1 as a character w/ lesser reward for 183pts.
Can Deaths Heads by upgraded individually, or is it a all-or-none unit upgrade?
This is what I've been using for kt so far, our league has 3 lists required total, two of them from the se dex as your primary army.
Eldar:
Ranger x 10 -120
Vyper w Shuriken cannons and tw Shuriken catapults - 40
Vyper w Shuriken cannons and tw Shuriken catapults - 40
Total - 200
Preferred enemy, bs+1, and fnp split between rangers
Eldar:
Guardians x10 w/ scatterlaser platform - 105
Warp Spiders x 5 - 95
Total - 200
Scatterlaser platform has reaping volley
Guardian Manning the gun at first gets preferred enemy
Warp spider gets fnp
Demons:
Nurglings x 8 - 120
Flesh hounds x 5 - 80
Total - 200
Wound on 2+ on cc, re roll failed wounds, and fnp on a Hound each
First list works as vypers are squadrons and ten snipers is nice suppressing fire for the vypers to take big targets.
Second list has 14 s6 shots and 18 s4. Most of which is Bladestorm. Add on the spiders mobility/survivability and it's a nice all comers choice
Third list was cause I really wanted to use demons and they only seem to have melee. So I'm going to use that 42 wound blob to objective camp and flood them with melee smacks. Also ideal list for attack and defend mission xD
Also, the Flesh Hounds are Beasts (unless the source I checked is wrong, in which case, ignore this comment! ), these also do not have access to leader traits and specialist skills.
I gotta say, fit all the fun I have with kill team, I'm kind of at a loss as to how the heck daemons are supposed to have any fun with it. Seems like they have no real options other than flamers
BrookM wrote: Also, the Flesh Hounds are Beasts (unless the source I checked is wrong, in which case, ignore this comment! ), these also do not have access to leader traits and specialist skills.
As I under understood it, specialists have to be nom-vehicle models. Beasts are not vehicles xD. Unless I'm missing the list where it says no to beast specialists?
I just grabbed the new rules book. Models with the Beast unit type or Swarm special rule cannot be leaders or specialists. It's right in the rules for selecting leaders, and repeats under the specialists rule.
Even nastier is the Black Knight bike. You can only take five, with no upgrades, but they have two real advantages; Twin Linked Plasma with rapid fire and Skilled Rider. The Skilled rider helps on those terrain filled boards, and the rapid fire is nice, since your speed will usually let you get close enough to use it. Take split fire on one of your specialists, and you can pop a second target per turn if you are facing a larger army. This configuration will get toasted by hordes, though.
One thing I am getting ready to try is a mixed configuration. I want to take a five man tactical squad, and either five Ravenwing bikes, or three Black Knights. Tacticals aren't bad in Kill Team, and the bikes would help me get to and knock out any tougher targets.
you want Scouts. I won a small tournament a couple weeks ago with three Black Knights and five Scouts with cloaks and heavy bolter. I gave the other Scouts close combat weapons (2nd Ed models) but bolters and sniper rifles might be better.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I gotta say, fit all the fun I have with kill team, I'm kind of at a loss as to how the heck daemons are supposed to have any fun with it. Seems like they have no real options other than flamers
8 Screamers.
Lot's of manuverability, 5++ save, 2 wounds, good in assault, option for AP 2 attack.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I gotta say, fit all the fun I have with kill team, I'm kind of at a loss as to how the heck daemons are supposed to have any fun with it. Seems like they have no real options other than flamers
8 Screamers.
Lot's of manuverability, 5++ save, 2 wounds, good in assault, option for AP 2 attack.
Problem is that it's only 5++, they gonna get shredded by anything with a modicum of shots on average
MrMoustaffa wrote: I gotta say, fit all the fun I have with kill team, I'm kind of at a loss as to how the heck daemons are supposed to have any fun with it. Seems like they have no real options other than flamers
8 Screamers.
Lot's of manuverability, 5++ save, 2 wounds, good in assault, option for AP 2 attack.
Problem is that it's only 5++, they gonna get shredded by anything with a modicum of shots on average
We had five people show up for the tourney today (two no shows, though one was at Spiel in Essen yesterday and the other had a drinking event ), but overall this was a great success, as we tested the waters for a more official event with proper price support later down the line! Data was collated and lessons were learned.
The forces involved were, from the top of my head..
Tau Empire with a pair of Crisis Suits (one with plasma, the other with burst cannons, nothing twin-linked), a Tetra and a Piranha, plus some drones. In hindsight, this list was illegal, because he had two fast attack options. Interestingly enough, the burst cannon suit had +1 BS, while the two extra gun drones were each turned into specialists as well, one having Scout, the other.. FnPIIRC.
Inquisition which is the closest we got to a proper horde army with a psy-bolt Chimera, three heavy bolter servitors, four daemon hosts, one veteran with plasma gun, one with storm bolter and three death cult assassins. I can't remember the specialists (sorry!), but IIRC they were all more or less configured towards rip & tear, with the exception of the plasma gunner, who had preferred enemy to negate all that getting hot.
Deathwatch with a pair of bikers (one with power axe, the other with power sword) and three Vanguard veterans (one with inferno pistol and lightning claw, can't remember what the other two had, probably claws).
Necrons with a heavy destroyer and Praetorians. Didn't play this guy, so I don't know his specialists.
Militarum Tempestus with a Taurox Prime with extra armour and five scions (power weapon + bolt pistol, hotshot volleygun and plasma gun). Relentless on the volleygun, ignore cover on the plasma gun and preferred enemy on one of the regular scions.
Due to a call from work I couldn't stay until the last game was resolved, which was Inquisition versus Necrons, but it looks like Inquisition and the Tau were the big winners of the day with two wins each, not bad! Especially considering his Daemonhosts had really gakky rolls almost every turn and his servitors didn't do that well either on their mindlock rolls. But when they did, they did hit quite hard, making for an enjoyable second game.
I managed to get three games in myself (big pro of playing a small force full of squishy models!): Deathwatch (lost 6-0 on Infiltrate the Camp as defender), Inquisition (lost 2-1 on Forward Push) and Tau Empire (won 4-3 on Infiltrate the camp as defender). The game against the Deathwatch was quite lopsided, as his special munitions meant I didn't stand a chance whatsoever, he blazed through my models with no effort at all. Inquisition was quite fun, as we both had a decent transport on the table, plus most of my infantry outflanked, but alas, he had more dudes than I had lucky dice rolls. As for the Tau, all my models bunkered up in the Taurox, barrelled towards his Piranha and from there I proceeded to take him down, one model at a time, with the cherry on the pie being my Tempestor taking down one of his suits and a gun drone in melee.
As for tables.. we had three tables, one packed with MDF Infinity buildings, the other with forest terrain and the last with GW ruin kits. Each table was built around two missions, to minimise the amount of messing about a player could do with the terrain. The Infinity table was probably voted most favourite, as it had the most effective blocking of LOS, whereas the other two were deemed to be too open and quite lacking in cover. Quite interesting and something to keep in mind for the next event.
Changes / additions we may look into for the next one..
* Not allowing Forge World units. This is NOT a general kneejerk reaction or fear of the unknown, as at the end of the day only one FW unit was involved (the Tetra), so it wouldn't mess up too many plans. Plus, when we're doing an official event, we want to check the army lists beforehand to see whether or not they are legal. Leaving out the sometimes murky stuff rulewise (some people are fond of writing lists using outdated material after all) should make it easier for the meta-person involved, who does not have to go through loads of books to check every unit and whatnot. Plus, let's be honest here, the vanilla codex books offer enough great units for this game as is. Aaaaaaaand this is something we do with other tourneys as well, so may as well stick to that one then.
* Allowing players to pick their Leader Trait instead of rolling for it. Partially because the rolls for a lot of us were quite.. useless in a not-so-hilarious way, but also because this is recommended in GW's tourney pack to speed up play and make for a better experience / forging that narrative.
* More LOS blocking terrain on the other tables. Bit of a no-brainer really, as shooting really rules in this version of the game. Assaulting is fine and dandy, but shooting is where it's really at. This was a request many had, that while the forest and ruined city tables were nice, next time around they'd be even better if they included more terrain that blocks off LOS.
On a personal note, having low numbers, no matter how well armoured, does tend to hurt a lot. For the next outing I may just replace the Taurox Prime with a pair of Armoured Sentinels.
I felt a little like "that guy" at a small KT event yesterday. My whole list was one unit of 10 Warp-Spiders, one of which was an Exarch. 200pts on the nose.
Needless to say, it wasn't a fun time for my opponents. I'm definitely bringing far fluffier KTs in the future.
It really depends on the opponents and the sort of event I suppose. While the tourney we had was without any sort of reward, I did expect them to bring their A game with whatever works best for their armies of choice.
I was quite surprised though by what the majority brought along, with them being quite vocal about wanting to bring along stuff that is fluffier or more thematic with an emphasis on fitting the theme, rather than bringing something hard that can kick the teeth out of anything they come across.
Most interesting was their opinion on hordes in the setting, which while a game-winner for sure, was seen as something time consuming to work with (even with a hour per game, which was quite generous, some still struggled to play a full game) and something that went against the essence of the game.
Most armies may have one or two choices that can be singled out as being hard or the like. In my opinion Warp Spiders can still be a fluffy choice, though you can always take half a squad of those backed by another type of Aspect Warrior to even things out.
After today I certainly want to shout (mind, tongue in cheek) certain things about the Deathwatch, who are ideal for these sort of games, acting like Swiss Army Knives with their special munitions and mission tactics, some of us never stood a chance!
Thank you for sharing your tournament experience. Limiting model count for expediency is not a bad idea, but we want to keep big armies as an option. Maybe 25 models to allow an infantry platoon?
"After today I certainly want to shout (mind, tongue in cheek) certain things about the Deathwatch, who are ideal for these sort of games, acting like Swiss Army Knives with their special munitions and mission tactics, some of us never stood a chance!"
I recently played against Deathwatch and those vengeance rounds were ripping me apart! And the mission tactic that lets them reroll ones against tactical squads(my only troops in my Killteam) made sure he never suffered It Gets Hot when using them.
axisofentropy wrote: Thank you for sharing your tournament experience. Limiting model count for expediency is not a bad idea, but we want to keep big armies as an option. Maybe 25 models to allow an infantry platoon?
In the end, it is up to the organiser to decide if there should be any limits or not, be it for the sake of expediency or because certain players have a certain reputation. The way I see it, if you know the people who attend are fast players, or not the anal sort who take forever to decide something, it shouldn't be an issue. We had put a model cap on it a few years ago, but this was mainly due to having a very, very slow Guard player in our ranks at that point, who brought a platoon to these things and brought things down to a grinding halt whenever it was his turn, as every model had to be placed just right, checked from several angles.. while we weren't playing on a clock, 40k in 40 minutes it was not!
If one must cap (expedience etc.), then 25 models is a generous one at that, with enough room for upgrades for the horde armies, though it really shouldn't be needed. Though mind, this is from personal experience at my local store.
Mrs. Esterhouse wrote: I recently played against Deathwatch and those vengeance rounds were ripping me apart! And the mission tactic that lets them reroll ones against tactical squads(my only troops in my Killteam) made sure he never suffered It Gets Hot when using them.
Indeed! Though while I was easy pickings, he was more or less taken apart by the Tau player and I heard that he lost to the Necron player as well, though the latter has been compared to having ones teeth pulled without anaesthetic, so that may have been a half-hearted battle at that.
+ + +
Okay, with the information gained from yesterday I've decided to probably go with the following for the next Kill Team outing, whenever that may be.
I was a bit torn on the power weapon before, but after the Tempestor killed a Crisis suit and gun drone with it in a single assault phase, it's a keeper.
Still need to decide whether to take an multi-laser or heavy flamer on the second walker.
For the big one we'll also be allowing people to pick their trait for the day instead of rolling for it, which may result in a massive uptick of people going for "Been there, seen it, done it.." just so they can have a fourth specialist in the team.
Leader trait: Been there, Seen it, Done it - Combat Specialist (Fleshbane, because well.. I want to hurt stuff reliably in melee!)
If you're going to take Fleshben on the Scion dude, take a hotshot pistol, and you'll get AP 3 fleshbane rather than AP5 fleshbane. It shouldn't cost any more pts.
Ah, in that case, nevermind. Would it be possible to swap the 5 men squad for a command squad? The bump in initiative ( and to WS, even if it is a minor thing) means you would not get outspeeded by Marines, it would make the Power weapon/fleshbane investement far more worthy.
A command squad did cross my mind, but it is 15 extra points, which would mean dropping either the plasma gun or power weapon.
Plus, the Tempestus platoon must have one Scions squad at the very least before you can take a command squad. Believe me, it has crossed my mind with one list variant, but that would mean ten pairs of boots on the ground with some special weapons, but nothing tough to draw enemy fire.
Good points. I just though that if you were going for a melee ish kind of character, you'd want that dude to be able to strike at least at the same time as Marines, but yeah, point limits is a female dog in that case.
2x Veteran with shotgun and combi-melta
Veteran with Stalker Bolter
Veteran with shotgun and combi-plasma
Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter
Vanguard Veteran with 2x lightning claws
I'd probably give the Vanguard either FNP or Stealth, just to keep them safe whilst they close into melee.
The stalker bolter guy should probably get Sharpshooter
The infernus guy should get whichever trait the Vanguard doesn't.
Bobthehero wrote:Good points. I just though that if you were going for a melee ish kind of character, you'd want that dude to be able to strike at least at the same time as Marines, but yeah, point limits is a female dog in that case.
That may be the problem, turning a weak meatbag into a melee monster, something it can never be in the first place!
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I'm looking at Deathwatch:
2x Veteran with shotgun and combi-melta
Veteran with Stalker Bolter
Veteran with shotgun and combi-plasma
Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter
Vanguard Veteran with 2x lightning claws
I'd probably give the Vanguard either FNP or Stealth, just to keep them safe whilst they close into melee.
The stalker bolter guy should probably get Sharpshooter
The infernus guy should get whichever trait the Vanguard doesn't.
Corrrrr, that's nasty!
You are equipped to deal with hordes, vehicles and everything in between with such a variety of weaponry.
FnP is good for a Vanguard, though something that maximises the damage output in melee may also be desirable. Though can't argue with Stealth either, as reaching a target can be quite a task in and of itself in this setting.
As for the Infernus.. it's a bit tough as the stalker already has ignore cover (relentless would be great on the stalker though!), but you can always slap scout onto the model and have it outflank. It is already Relentless so to say, so having it pop up from one of the flanks is always a nice added bonus.
The final results of the tourney are in, more or less, I'm missing the outcome of one battle (Inquisition versus Necrons), but here's what I got:
Tau Empire - 3 wins
Inquisition - 1 wins
Necrons - 1 wins
Deathwatch - 1 wins
Militarum Tempestus - 1 win (against the Tau no less! )
The Tau player though has seen the mistake he made with the creation of his list and has offered to relinquish all points, though that would result in a four way tie. None of that!
BrookM wrote: If you want to troll, take a bare-bones infantry platoon with an attached conscript squad, that's forty-five models for 190 pts, leaving you with ten pts to spend on some upgrades or whatnot.
It's all fun and games until you lose half your models and start making leadership checks! Oh noes!
I'm thinking of running my scars
5 scouts vet sarge melta bombs leader. Heavy bolter with helfire shells relentless and bolters
Landspeeder storm basic
3 scout bikes sarge with machine sabotage and one with rage.
Fast, tough, capable of taking on most things.and fluffy.
Plasma 1referred enemy
Plasma 2:Ignores cover
Autocannon: Feel no pain
Sarge leader trait: 12"break test
Opponent, deathwatch. Forgive me not knowing exact terms here
5 man 'tac' squad: stalker pattern bolter, the heavy bolter/flamer combo, sarge with storm shield, and 2 regular marines
1 vanguard vet with jetpack and the S10 thunder hammer
Vanguard: scout
Heavy bolter/flamer: Relentless
Stalker bolter: eagle eye (I think, essentially whatever upped his range)
Sarge had zealot if I remember right.
First game was over very quickly, slay the leader. Leader hid in Chimera and thanks to a fairly open table I gunned him down in short order. FNP on the Autocannon team won me the game along with camo gear and Grenadiers. The Autocannon probably took 12 wounds and still survived, getting half my kills as it was set up on a very commanding ruin overlooking battlefield.
Game 2, take the high ground. opponent and I realized we had far too little LoS terrain and added a bastion and some other terrain to the table. It was here I learned how scary a Vanguard vet with a jumppack, scout, and super hammer can be. Given he can be halfway across the board before the game even starts, I had to be very careful with the Chimera (especially because everyone but the Autocannon was in it)
Autocannon again absorbed stupid amounts of fire, between 3+ cover saves or 4 plus armor (he had ignores cover rounds but they didn't ignore carapace) Autocannon again gets a couple kills and hits far above its points value. Turn 3 I got a bit careless with the Chimera and the vanguard gets a crazy good charge off. Chimera not too surprisingly explodes, with only one guardsman dying to the explosion somehow, but all but one getting pinned. One of the plasmas cowering in the crater pops the vanguard at point blank snap firing and the game gets tense.
I've pushed him to breaking point and started to move up at this point, I make it to the terrain piece but couldn't board it in time before game ends, but win due to first blood/break point, whereas all he had was one objective point. Vanguard are very scary and if I hadn't gone nuts with upgrades I would've been hurting. Also the Chimera explosion killing only one model was a bit silly, had it rolled average (or killed my leader) it couldve swung the game for him.
Be very careful of specialist ammo, between longer ranged rounds, ap 4 shells, and ignores cover, they have a lot of nasty tricks. I think their stalkers can even get AP 3 if they use a shorter ranged round.
Also, for guard players out there. I would heavily consider a FnP Autocannon team, especially if you take vets, over relentless. Every game I play the autocannons attract crazy amount of fire and if you set them up well you won't move much anyways. The FNP really helps survival against all the small arms that will be thrown their way in the mid game.
As for why autocannons over other weapons, players just really fear them. They hit hard, have good RoF, and long range. For marines or tough infantry they just pile wounds on to force saves. For hordes theyre an incredibly overkill sniper team that loves to pick out enemy leaders and specialists. Plus they can always hurt any vehicle in the game. Every game the enemy always shoots everything he can at them and every game they do some serious work. I don't leave home without one.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I gotta say, fit all the fun I have with kill team, I'm kind of at a loss as to how the heck daemons are supposed to have any fun with it. Seems like they have no real options other than flamers
8 Screamers.
Lot's of manuverability, 5++ save, 2 wounds, good in assault, option for AP 2 attack.
Problem is that it's only 5++, they gonna get shredded by anything with a modicum of shots on average
Did I also mention that they can jink ?
Screamers are a Jetbike unit.
So each model has 2 wounds, a 4+ jink, re-roll 1's for their saves, can do D3 str4 attacks just by turbo-boosting over their target, have HoW + 4 str4 attacks or 1 str5 AP2 Armourbane attack. Yeah, 8 Screamers are a good KT choice
2x Veteran with shotgun and combi-melta
Veteran with Stalker Bolter
Veteran with shotgun and combi-plasma
Veteran with Infernus Heavy Bolter
Vanguard Veteran with 2x lightning claws
I'd probably give the Vanguard either FNP or Stealth, just to keep them safe whilst they close into melee.
The stalker bolter guy should probably get Sharpshooter
The infernus guy should get whichever trait the Vanguard doesn't.
I've been running Deathwatch myself. Infernus has proven quite good, particularly with Reaping Volley. The range is generally overkill, but it means you can pick scatter targets from all over the board. The big downside is you lose out on the other wonderful Weapon rules, but it really helps the numeric disadvantage. The Frag seems strong, but I'm not sure if the extra 5 doesn't cost me something important. I've put Scout on the Stalker, which generally is enough to fix counterdeploy issues and let him fire all game. There's probably better options though.
I have a personal love of Vanguards, but I'm not sure what they bring to the table the bikes don't do better. Have yet to fit them in, but I've been wanting to try 5 bikes, which generally leaves you with room for a single Vanguard I guess. If you're going to go double claws as your only Vanguard, you should probably just declare him Edryc. Exact same cost and profile with Stealth, Strike from the Shadows, and Winged Deliverance tossed on for good measure.
Hey guys! My local store is running a KT league in a few weeks, and I've decided to break in my necrons so to speak. Limited by models, but I have a few options.
-5 Praetorians w/void blades and particle casters
-3 Scarabs
So far this is what I'm planning to take. I'll pick a trait for my Leader ahead of time for if/when I get to choose, but the other three specialists will have Killer Instinct, Machine Sabateur, and Infiltrate. I decided to go with void blades for entropic strike and rending. Mostly for anti-vehicle capabilities. While it's not a reliable AP2 combination, I'm hoping everything else these guys can do will make up for it. Thoughts?
My other options are
-15 Warriors
-5 Immortals/5 Deathmarks (or 10 of either unit)
-5 Lychguard + Scarabs (depending on load out)
whoops haha
rip the dream
), these also do not have access to leader traits and specialist skills.
