Includes: Phoenix Lords, Cypher, crazy Dark Eldar arena peeps, Kharn, major Necron figures, etc.
Basically, if they all go 1-on-1 (then are resurrected) to fight in a round-robin style where everyone fights everyone at least once - who ends up with the most wins?
Talizvar wrote: Luscious the Eternal.
According to the fluff, the thread would end here.
Anyone who beats him, would become him.
Well, the magic of resurrection means that both combatants revert to their default status. For example, if someone gets clipped with Axe of Khorne and loses their soul, they get it back for next fight.
This is purely skills-based. If Luscious the Eternal wins one fight, that's only +1 to him. Then it starts again next fight.
Questions like this are notoriously hard to answer. Are we including psychic powers? Because Daemon Primarch Magnus would sweep everyone away with Hellfire.
But I think I get what you mean, in an arena fight based purely on martial skill who would win, excluding the likes of Gods and Daemon Primarchs.
Jain Zar, The Solitaire and Lilth are up there as the most skilled, acting like Mr Anderson from the matrix, but not necessarily the ones to win. But by god a Solitaire vs Lilth fight would be epic.
Imperial representatives would probably be the likes of Dante, Grimnar, the melee assassins. Space Marines can take punches and give them out, hard to imagine Grimnar going down to Lilths blades.
Ghazskull is probably the heaviest hitter here, due to the chaos gods being fickle while Gork and Mork have a special interest in Ghaz. Plus feat wise he easily put down Belial so it shows he can duel with the best SM and come out on top.
Chaos brings Kharn, Abbadon, Lucius, Typhus, all strong contenters but only really kharn can swing with the big boys in terms of skill.
Kharne and Eldrad are two of the top contenders IMO.
Kharne because he's ridiculously fast and strong even for an Astartes, and could bulldoze his way through most characters in the setting with sheer physical ability.
Eldrad because of his insane combat precognition ability. He basically has tens of thousands of tries to beat you before you've even started the fight.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Questions like this are notoriously hard to answer. Are we including psychic powers? Because Daemon Primarch Magnus would sweep everyone away with Hellfire.
But I think I get what you mean, in an arena fight based purely on martial skill who would win, excluding the likes of Gods and Daemon Primarchs.
Jain Zar, The Solitaire and Lilth are up there as the most skilled, acting like Mr Anderson from the matrix, but not necessarily the ones to win. But by god a Solitaire vs Lilth fight would be epic.
Imperial representatives would probably be the likes of Dante, Grimnar, the melee assassins. Space Marines can take punches and give them out, hard to imagine Grimnar going down to Lilths blades.
Ghazskull is probably the heaviest hitter here, due to the chaos gods being fickle while Gork and Mork have a special interest in Ghaz. Plus feat wise he easily put down Belial so it shows he can duel with the best SM and come out on top.
Chaos brings Kharn, Abbadon, Lucius, Typhus, all strong contenters but only really kharn can swing with the big boys in terms of skill.
Castellan Crowe is definitely worth considering for being the top dualist in the Imperium. Considering he is also a respectably powerful psyker adds to his deadliness.
jhe90 wrote: Lore wise, some of the custodius could be pretty deadly.
there space marines +1
They weren't too impressive in Throneworld, though.
30k ones seemed so.
i read the odd one and one held off two world eaters in combat at same time and managed to take down both before being slain.
two who where in full battle range.
jhe90 wrote: Lore wise, some of the custodius could be pretty deadly.
there space marines +1
They weren't too impressive in Throneworld, though.
30k ones seemed so.
i read the odd one and one held off two world eaters in combat at same time and managed to take down both before being slain.
two who where in full battle range.
I guess, but a Shadowseer and Death Jester went through dozens of them like a warm knife through butter.
That said, the only other time we saw a Shadowseer fighting in the fluff, they had Ahriman on the back foot, so maybe that's not much of an indictment.
Warning! The following post contains sarcasm and is only tangentially related to the primary topic.
Anyway, its obviously got to be someone from the Imperial guard. My top 3 are Creed (no one said you can't fight them after they've just been stomped by a titan), Sly Marbo (because duh) and Ciaphas Cain, who of course was running away from a small group of Orks/something comparatively nonthreatening and found himself stuck in the competition.
He effectively wields a stick into battle. It's a daemonically possessed sword that he refuses to use the actual daemonic ability, and more as just a plain old unpowered sword, yet he is still regarded as the best duellist in the Grey Knights, who are very much superior to regular Astartes.
Asurmen, he's founded the phoenix lords and is pretty beast in combat. He's even capable of killing greater daemons outright in single combat. Not only that, but I've never lost him in game during cc. And I get into alot in close combat.
The problem I have with naming Kharn is that his rules go the opposite way of normal CSM; they're so super that it seems like he can do things in-game that he can't do in fluff (he can punch out a Knight in a single round of combat, something I doubt he has ever done in fluff).
In terms of absolute best combatant, Khorne himself takes the cake simply because he's the literal god of war (and not a fake pretender like that Calgar chap). I doubt even Tzeentch can go toe to toe with Big-K alone even with all the magic trickery the latter has.
In my opinion, arguing this based just on the fluff will quickly become mired in the same debates as comic books, which while interesting, don't go anywhere. Everybody is the best in some way, at some times.
The OP is suggesting something interestingly specific, namely a round robin, one on one, arena style fight. That's a very specific form of fighting, and one that heavily favors flexibility and duelists skills. Lillith is a clear favorite, being a gladiatorial champion, although I'd worry about her ability to handle monstrous opponents. Lucius is another choice, but the ability to resurrect implies that he loses a decent number of fights.
Most of the SM characters are known as much for their tactical acumen as their sheer fighting prowess, with Kharn and Draigo as some of the bigger exceptions.
The daemon primarchs are really among the most powerful beings, and combine strength and skill at a level mortals would struggle to match. I'd go with Angron, because he couples the highest level of martial prowess with a potent psychic defense. I think that magnus would do very well, but any ability to shut down his psychic powers would limit him.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The problem I have with naming Kharn is that his rules go the opposite way of normal CSM; they're so super that it seems like he can do things in-game that he can't do in fluff (he can punch out a Knight in a single round of combat, something I doubt he has ever done in fluff).
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: The problem I have with naming Kharn is that his rules go the opposite way of normal CSM; they're so super that it seems like he can do things in-game that he can't do in fluff (he can punch out a Knight in a single round of combat, something I doubt he has ever done in fluff).
He does exactly that in the Traitor's Hate fluff, on top of destroying the aforementioned titan. The bloke's an absolute beast.
If we're taking Daemon Primarchs into account it's a no-contest. Magnus wins, then Angron, then Fulgrim and so on and so forth. Alpharius and Omegon might not make the list, nor would Logar and possibly Mortarion (he got his ass handed to him by Draigo in that 'glorious' piece of fluff).
But I think it's more fun to only include currently alive 'mortals' (I.E not Daemons). It's cooler to picture Asurmen vs Lucius then it is to picture Angron scraping Lilth off of his hoof.
mrfrosty wrote: Includes: Phoenix Lords, Cypher, crazy Dark Eldar arena peeps, Kharn, major Necron figures, etc.
Basically, if they all go 1-on-1 (then are resurrected) to fight in a round-robin style where everyone fights everyone at least once - who ends up with the most wins?
The Emperor. Or Horus. Both could be a handful in an one on one.
mrfrosty wrote: Includes: Phoenix Lords, Cypher, crazy Dark Eldar arena peeps, Kharn, major Necron figures, etc.
Basically, if they all go 1-on-1 (then are resurrected) to fight in a round-robin style where everyone fights everyone at least once - who ends up with the most wins?
The Emperor. Or Horus. Both could be a handful in an one on one.
Depends, pre-demon Horus, or post? A number of the Primarchs would have punk'd Horus, prior to his ascension.
Jimsolo wrote: Kharn hasn't been demonically resurrected or anything, has he? So he's never died?
Lucius the Eternal has been bested, at least that's what his fluff would have us believe. (Multiple times.)
Kharn died at the end of the siege of Terra I believe. And possibly in Istvaan III (Galaxy in Flames).
But I agree with you that he would beat Lucius. The whole rezzing in your enemies body is cool, but when you die in most of your appearances (Some Raven Guard in the HH I think) it seems a bit cheap.
Kharn never misses. He only misses if there is nobody else around.
But he's tricky, because part of his prowess in CC is the nature of his weapon. How would he do without Gorechild? His WS is 7, while an Avatar or Bloodthirster are 10.
mrfrosty wrote: Includes: Phoenix Lords, Cypher, crazy Dark Eldar arena peeps, Kharn, major Necron figures, etc.
Basically, if they all go 1-on-1 (then are resurrected) to fight in a round-robin style where everyone fights everyone at least once - who ends up with the most wins?
The Emperor. Or Horus. Both could be a handful in an one on one.
Depends, pre-demon Horus, or post? A number of the Primarchs would have punk'd Horus, prior to his ascension.
At the same time, the closest thing we can get to Khorne manifesting directly is Ann'Grath The Unbound - who is explicitely stated to be the most powerful of Khorne's daemons*.
And has been beaten down in each of the three occasions he's showed up - getting beaten down (in order of increasing embarrassment) by Lorgar Aurelian (a primarch), Marneus Augustus Calgar (a space marine) and Inquisitor Hector Rex (a mortal human).
Kind of Worf syndrome, sadly. Not that it doesn't make Hector Rex look ****ing badass.
* Yes, I know - that's not Khorne himself but it's as close as we can get in an actual battlefield in a real place.
How is this even an argument? Kaldor Draigo is canonically the most powerful being in the setting. Not even the Chaos gods can beat him. He lives in the Warp and doesn't afraid of anything.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: How is this even an argument? Kaldor Draigo is canonically the most powerful being in the setting. Not even the Chaos gods can beat him. He lives in the Warp and doesn't afraid of anything.
Or is that what the Chaos gods want him to think? My joking vote is still for Creed, Marbo or Cain
Certain questions only have one answer.
Someone asks " Who'd win? Batman or.." just cut them off there. No need for the second name because Batman wins.
Same thing here. " Who'd win? Kharn or..." Kharn. Every. Single. Time.
I think Kharn has the highest combination of combat experience and body-kinesthetic intelligence in the setting, easily. However, he suffers from limitations based on his physiology (space marines being built for durability rather than flexibility).
My vote remains for Lelith Hesperax; she's her body-kinesthetic intelligence is at least in the ballpark of Kharn's, and her body is capable of utilizing it to a degree that Kharn's is not.
Kharn has been undefeated for millenia. Lelith Hesperax has only been around a fraction of that time, (reasonably interpreted as centuries) but has never even sustained serious injury.
locarno24 wrote: At the same time, the closest thing we can get to Khorne manifesting directly is Ann'Grath The Unbound - who is explicitely stated to be the most powerful of Khorne's daemons*.
And has been beaten down in each of the three occasions he's showed up - getting beaten down (in order of increasing embarrassment) by Lorgar Aurelian (a primarch), Marneus Augustus Calgar (a space marine) and Inquisitor Hector Rex (a mortal human).
Kind of Worf syndrome, sadly. Not that it doesn't make Hector Rex look ****ing badass.
* Yes, I know - that's not Khorne himself but it's as close as we can get in an actual battlefield in a real place.
When was Ann'Grath defeated by Calgar? I don't recall that fight.
Nerak wrote: Skarrbrand. 888p of pure combat badassery.
No he isn't. Skarbrand is about 250 points - he's the one with the broken wings. Ann'Grath is the 888 point one, and - not to put too fine a point on it - has been kicked into touch each time he's narratively appeared in a battle, by Lorgar (fair enough), Marneus Calgar (okay.....), and Inquisitor Hector Rex (that's one seriously impressive dude).
locarno24 wrote: At the same time, the closest thing we can get to Khorne manifesting directly is Ann'Grath The Unbound - who is explicitely stated to be the most powerful of Khorne's daemons*.
And has been beaten down in each of the three occasions he's showed up - getting beaten down (in order of increasing embarrassment) by Lorgar Aurelian (a primarch), Marneus Augustus Calgar (a space marine) and Inquisitor Hector Rex (a mortal human).
Kind of Worf syndrome, sadly. Not that it doesn't make Hector Rex look ****ing badass.
* Yes, I know - that's not Khorne himself but it's as close as we can get in an actual battlefield in a real place.
When was Ann'Grath defeated by Calgar? I don't recall that fight.
Blood Oath (the massive display at warhammer world, and accompanying campaign book). The final duel is between the two of them at the top of Gulliman's shrine. Calgar (who does get wounded, to be fair, and whose honour guard don't last very long) manages to pulverise Ann'Grath's skull between the gauntlets of macragge.
Kharn has been undefeated for millenia. Lelith Hesperax has only been around a fraction of that time, (reasonably interpreted as centuries) but has never even sustained serious injury.
What makes you think Lelith is so young? She takes part in Vects coupe in M.35, and at this point she is already leading the cult of strife and has made a name for herself, suggesting she's been an important figure in the Cult scene for a while since. I'd guess she is at least 6 thousand years old (1 thousand years to get to the top, 5 thousand at the top) and to still be at the top of her game in the arena must put her in the top contenders.
PourSpelur wrote: Certain questions only have one answer.
Someone asks " Who'd win? Batman or.." just cut them off there. No need for the second name because Batman wins.
Same thing here. " Who'd win? Kharn or..." Kharn. Every. Single. Time.
Kharn wasn't doing too hot against Abaddon in the last of the Red Path books, but the fight ended due to surprise Bloodthirster.
Personally I'd only look at mortals, so I'd exclude Daemons and Phoenix Lords and such, based on that, I'd also say Lelith Hesperax is probably the single best 1-on-1 fighter alive currently.
Nerak wrote: Skarrbrand. 888p of pure combat badassery.
No he isn't. Skarbrand is about 250 points - he's the one with the broken wings. Ann'Grath is the 888 point one, and - not to put too fine a point on it - has been kicked into touch each time he's narratively appeared in a battle, by Lorgar (fair enough), Marneus Calgar (okay.....), and Inquisitor Hector Rex (that's one seriously impressive dude).
Ah, my bad.
With my A pick gone I'm gonna go with B.
The Custodes Captain. You know, the guy who's sparred against primarchs and won, boarded and survived Horus flagship and has been fighting deamons nonstop for the last 10.000 years.
Kharn has been undefeated for millenia. Lelith Hesperax has only been around a fraction of that time, (reasonably interpreted as centuries) but has never even sustained serious injury.
What makes you think Lelith is so young? She takes part in Vects coupe in M.35, and at this point she is already leading the cult of strife and has made a name for herself, suggesting she's been an important figure in the Cult scene for a while since. I'd guess she is at least 6 thousand years old (1 thousand years to get to the top, 5 thousand at the top) and to still be at the top of her game in the arena must put her in the top contenders.
Good points, she is older than I was remembering. (She's still quite a bit younger than Kharn though.)
Remember, Kharn has been beaten (although not for a long time). The too that come to mind off the top of my head are by Loken in Galaxy in Flames (who then lost to Abaddon), and by someone unspecified in the Siege of Terra (not a primarch though, they were all on the vengeful spirit). In the second one at least he died. I would vote for Hesperex over Kharn.
The Custodes Captain. You know, the guy who's sparred against primarchs and won, boarded and survived Horus flagship and has been fighting deamons nonstop for the last 10.000 years.
Kharn has been undefeated for millenia. Lelith Hesperax has only been around a fraction of that time, (reasonably interpreted as centuries) but has never even sustained serious injury.
What makes you think Lelith is so young? She takes part in Vects coupe in M.35, and at this point she is already leading the cult of strife and has made a name for herself, suggesting she's been an important figure in the Cult scene for a while since. I'd guess she is at least 6 thousand years old (1 thousand years to get to the top, 5 thousand at the top) and to still be at the top of her game in the arena must put her in the top contenders.
Good points, she is older than I was remembering. (She's still quite a bit younger than Kharn though.)
Younger than Kharn as measured in real space time measurements, but given the fickle nature of time in the warp (and Kharn does spend time in warpspace, doesn't he?) and, consequently, a comparably fickle nature of time in the webway, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to come to the conclusion that Kharn has more years of experience than Lelith.
I think Lelith has my vote, with Abbadon a close second and Kharn nipping at Abbadon's heels...at least among the non-primarch/daemon/phoenixlord crowd. Thousands of years in combat without an injury serious enough to leave a scar is a helluva accolade.
PourSpelur wrote: Certain questions only have one answer.
Someone asks " Who'd win? Batman or.." just cut them off there. No need for the second name because Batman wins.
Same thing here. " Who'd win? Kharn or..." Kharn. Every. Single. Time.
I'll put in my three votes and their accomplishments.
Ghazzy - Took down a Greater Daemon before his first invasion of Armageddon, Gave Belial a whooping, and soloed a Mawloc (he actually got hurt on that one and had to take moment of rest).
Creed - His incoming fist might be a carefully hidden titan that's about to stomp his enemy flat.
Fulgrim - Because he killed 2 Primarch''s and still lives unlike other traitor wannabes that can't get gak done. Bonus points for putting Rowboat Girlyman in his current predicament.
Unusual Suspect wrote: [
Younger than Kharn as measured in real space time measurements, but given the fickle nature of time in the warp (and Kharn does spend time in warpspace, doesn't he?) and, consequently, a comparably fickle nature of time in the webway, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to come to the conclusion that Kharn has more years of experience than Lelith.
In general it's probably safe to say that that the original traitor Legionnaries have had about 10000 years of fighting. It's pretty much always said that they have foguht for 10000 years when they're brought with little allusion to how it might have been more or less (and if one does think of it that way purely due to probability they've probably been fighting for longer).
Exergy wrote:What about 40k batman? Konrad Curze vs Kharn?
Curze is a Primarch. He'd beat almost anybody who isn't a Primarch. And that's including Avatar's of Khaine and Greater Daemons.
ProwlerPC wrote:Fulgrim - Because he killed 2 Primarch''s and still lives unlike other traitor wannabes that can't get gak done. Bonus points for putting Rowboat Girlyman in his current predicament.
In fairness the first time he had the assistance of a Daemon (without which he would have lost) and the second time he was a full blown Daemon Prince so it wasn't just his prowess at play.
PourSpelur wrote: Certain questions only have one answer.
Someone asks " Who'd win? Batman or.." just cut them off there. No need for the second name because Batman wins.
Same thing here. " Who'd win? Kharn or..." Kharn. Every. Single. Time.
What about 40k batman? Konrad Curze vs Kharn?
Kharn would still win...but Space Batman planned to lose from the beginning, thus wins!
The Silent King, and many other Necron Lords, are literally unkillable, and have devices at their disposal that can, for example, wipe out an entire star system instantly whilst not being near said star.
While not necessarily true of daemons, everyone else in this thread usually needs some kind of ground to fight on. And those daemons need psychic, emotional people, which is another thing Necrons are bent on eliminating.
Unusual Suspect wrote: [
Younger than Kharn as measured in real space time measurements, but given the fickle nature of time in the warp (and Kharn does spend time in warpspace, doesn't he?) and, consequently, a comparably fickle nature of time in the webway, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to come to the conclusion that Kharn has more years of experience than Lelith.
In general it's probably safe to say that that the original traitor Legionnaries have had about 10000 years of fighting. It's pretty much always said that they have foguht for 10000 years when they're brought with little allusion to how it might have been more or less (and if one does think of it that way purely due to probability they've probably been fighting for longer).
And the statement that they've fought for 10000 years is, I believe, almost always from an Imperium perspective (aka that Real Space time measurement I stated earlier), especially given that...
The fickle nature of time in the warp seems fairly well documented, it seems well established in the lore that time is a nearly meaningless concept in Warp Space. When discussing Chaos Space Marine age, this thread includes several direct references to 1000s of years passing in Real Space while only a few years pass as percieved by those in the Warp.
I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for Kharn to be more experienced, merely that assuming his 10000 year span in Real Space translates directly to 10000 years of actual experienced time is not really an appropriate presumption.
I see a distinct lack of Sigismund in this thread.
Kitten, the Custodes Captain, has gone through more gak than I can count...
boarding Horus' flagship
Sparring with Primarchs
Siege of Terra
and the 10,000 years ensuing...
I'd say he has good odds, because he's kept his armour on.
No, there was that one time where the best fortune-telling psyker in the galaxy beat that squad of deathwatch because he saw them coming and was able to plan accordingly. Like he's done for millennia and is really good at. Nope, Space Marines don't always win. Not true. Nuh uh.
A Swarmlord. Near wholly independent of the Hive Mind but using it's total accumulated knowledge of every battle ever fought on untold worlds in who knows how many galaxys.
Bigger then a shed with 4 sentient swords that devour their targets life force.
On the table it's overpriced crap. By the fluff there is no 1 person that can stand up to it.
Robin5t wrote: By that logic, I'd like to nominate 'Anyone fighting an Avatar of Khaine'!
Oh my goodness, its incredibly sad, but very, very true. No-one can actually lose to Avatars of Khaine
@deathmagiks: I know.
@Lance845: Yeah...Calgar beat the Swarmlord. Didn't Farsight also? Or did he just face it, I'm unsure. Regardless Calgar's definitely above the Swarmlord (he is a Marine after all), but then again Cato's killed a Transcendent C'tan and Calgar caved in...was it An'ggrath's Skull I think in Blood Oath?
@Robin5t: I do think that you have an airtight case there. No-one ever loses to Avatars of Khaine so anyone fighting an Avatar of Khaine automatically becomes the best for that period just to make sure they win.
Wouldn't want Avatars of Khaine to be, like, impressive or anything now would we?
(My word making fun of Craftworld Eldar is so easy, they just absolutely suck in the fluff, really quite sad)
I wonder what would happen if an Avatar of Khaine fought another Avatar of Khaine, though.
Would the universe just straight-up implode as two beings incapable of not losing face each other in battle? Is this the real reason why there's an Eye of Terror?
On the table it's overpriced crap. By the fluff there is no 1 person that can stand up to it.
Calgar beat the Swarmlord the second time they faced.
I'm sure he fed more of his Honorguard to it to make it sluggish.
But Calgar is the only known chapter master to beat an Avatar of Khaine and the Swarmlord, beings both ancient and terrible in power, as well as skill.
Calgar also beat An'ggarath (kinda) that probably shouldn't be forgotten.
Then again Logan beat a Bloodthirster breaking out a Lord of Skulls, and Cato killed a Transcendent C'tan so what'evs.
Don't know if Calgar cheated. Just had to keep up with Cato perhaps and so has been hitting the gym a lot more lately.
Besides I don't know if the Swarmlord in fluff counts as much of a threat, has it ever one-on-one beaten anyone important? I mean its obviously not Avatar of Khaine weak, but that's because even Grots beat that guy.
Jimsolo wrote: I think Kharn has the highest combination of combat experience and body-kinesthetic intelligence in the setting, easily. However, he suffers from limitations based on his physiology (space marines being built for durability rather than flexibility).
My vote remains for Lelith Hesperax; she's her body-kinesthetic intelligence is at least in the ballpark of Kharn's, and her body is capable of utilizing it to a degree that Kharn's is not.
Not to mention that Lelith by nature is a 1-on-1 combatant, whereas Kharn is more of a "kill anything that moves" combatant.
What also makes Lelith so impressive is that she does all this without the aid of combat drugs like so many other Wyches.
Never been defeated, never suffered serious injured (audiences marvel at her "unscarred" skin)
Anemone wrote: Calgar also beat An'ggarath (kinda) that probably shouldn't be forgotten.
Then again Logan beat a Bloodthirster breaking out a Lord of Skulls, and Cato killed a Transcendent C'tan so what'evs.
Don't know if Calgar cheated. Just had to keep up with Cato perhaps and so has been hitting the gym a lot more lately.
Besides I don't know if the Swarmlord in fluff counts as much of a threat, has it ever one-on-one beaten anyone important? I mean its obviously not Avatar of Khaine weak, but that's because even Grots beat that guy.
He did cut off all of Calgars appendages. It's fluff entry in the Codex names a good few things that it he done (assumption that most of them are in a different universe), and is worked up to be a terrifying and monstrous warrior created when a Hive Fleet is having a big issue conquering. Why this nearly 20 foot monster that is almost as old as the Tyranid race and has experience from perhaps millions of conflicts, went down to Calgar after one-rounding him on Maccarage is mystery to me.
I could understand if Calgar had a wing of Thunerhawks pelt him with bombs, or a Warlord Titan step on him....
To be frank, I don't think its the same as fighting a Greater Demon or the Avatar o Khaine.
Jimsolo wrote: I think Kharn has the highest combination of combat experience and body-kinesthetic intelligence in the setting, easily. However, he suffers from limitations based on his physiology (space marines being built for durability rather than flexibility).
My vote remains for Lelith Hesperax; she's her body-kinesthetic intelligence is at least in the ballpark of Kharn's, and her body is capable of utilizing it to a degree that Kharn's is not.
Not to mention that Lelith by nature is a 1-on-1 combatant, whereas Kharn is more of a "kill anything that moves" combatant.
What also makes Lelith so impressive is that she does all this without the aid of combat drugs like so many other Wyches.
Never been defeated, never suffered serious injured (audiences marvel at her "unscarred" skin)
Plus, she is damn sexy, so my vote is for Lelith
-
Well and the whole skimpy outfit and flowing hair is just to show off that she isnt even trying.
Jimsolo wrote: I think Kharn has the highest combination of combat experience and body-kinesthetic intelligence in the setting, easily. However, he suffers from limitations based on his physiology (space marines being built for durability rather than flexibility).
My vote remains for Lelith Hesperax; she's her body-kinesthetic intelligence is at least in the ballpark of Kharn's, and her body is capable of utilizing it to a degree that Kharn's is not.
Not to mention that Lelith by nature is a 1-on-1 combatant, whereas Kharn is more of a "kill anything that moves" combatant.
What also makes Lelith so impressive is that she does all this without the aid of combat drugs like so many other Wyches.
Never been defeated, never suffered serious injured (audiences marvel at her "unscarred" skin)
Plus, she is damn sexy, so my vote is for Lelith
-
Well and the whole skimpy outfit and flowing hair is just to show off that she isnt even trying.
Doesn't she tie knives in her hair and use it as a weapon?
Jimsolo wrote: I think Kharn has the highest combination of combat experience and body-kinesthetic intelligence in the setting, easily. However, he suffers from limitations based on his physiology (space marines being built for durability rather than flexibility).
My vote remains for Lelith Hesperax; she's her body-kinesthetic intelligence is at least in the ballpark of Kharn's, and her body is capable of utilizing it to a degree that Kharn's is not.
Not to mention that Lelith by nature is a 1-on-1 combatant, whereas Kharn is more of a "kill anything that moves" combatant.
What also makes Lelith so impressive is that she does all this without the aid of combat drugs like so many other Wyches.
Never been defeated, never suffered serious injured (audiences marvel at her "unscarred" skin)
Plus, she is damn sexy, so my vote is for Lelith
-
Well and the whole skimpy outfit and flowing hair is just to show off that she isnt even trying.
Doesn't she tie knives in her hair and use it as a weapon?
"Lelith is the undisputed champion of the gladiatorial arenas, the most deadly of all her kind. In battle she uses her body as a weapon as well as her blades. Her hair is sewn through with barbs and hooks, her legs and feet edged with spurs and her fingernails have been honed to scalpel sharpness. Lelith can kill a dozen warriors in the space of a few seconds."
While I'm a bit biased (surprise) I reckon there's a fairly strong shout to be made for a Solitaire, too, to be fair, if mainly because they're absurdly, mind-bogglingly fast.
One of them took down a fairly powerful Greater Daemon of Slaanesh pretty simply in Path of the Outcast. There's also another fluff piece where one goes up against a Chaos Lord and his retinue of eleven Chosen - they know he's there, they're ready for him, he still wipes them all out in the space of seconds before any of them even have a chance to react. The Chaos Lord starts raising his arm to fire his bolter and then realises that he's been cut into several pieces. Given that Astartes can react to bullets easily enough, this puts Solitaire combat speed at roughly somewhere between 'supersonic' and 'comic book speedster dropped in the wrong setting'.
Jimsolo wrote: Other than Motley, do we ever see a Solitaire fighting in the fluff?
I ask because Motley kind of gets played out. Every time we see him fight, he's not that impressive.
But... I literally just gave two examples in my post?
Path of the Outcast, where one solos a Keeper of Secrets, and a fluff piece in Warriors of the Laughing God where one annihilates 12 Astartes including a Chaos Lord in moments. I can link an image of that snippet, if you'd like.
Even with Motley, we never really saw him fight seriously in the PotDE series, but he had absolutely no worries about being able to handle Morr without killing him despite the latter being so fast that he moved faster than the eye could track and his klaive swings were only visible as afterimages. He stomped the incubus that came for him at the shrine, and all he did during his fight with Lady Malys was flirt and defend himself (yet he was still able to match a major character from another faction's codex). In Masque of Vyle he was scary as hell and stomped an Archon + his retinue flat with freaky mind control powers. I feel like you're underselling the guy a bit.
Was it Motley or the Harlequin king that Lelith herself thinks might be able to to match or even best her? Then she gets excited by this notion. Whoever that was should probably be a contender.
Unfortunately, we never really saw anything else from him, so he's currently featless other than being the only confirmed being in the galaxy that Lelith has looked at and gone 'You know what, I probably couldn't take him'.
Jimsolo wrote: Other than Motley, do we ever see a Solitaire fighting in the fluff?
I ask because Motley kind of gets played out. Every time we see him fight, he's not that impressive.
But... I literally just gave two examples in my post?
Path of the Outcast, where one solos a Keeper of Secrets, and a fluff piece in Warriors of the Laughing God where one annihilates 12 Astartes including a Chaos Lord in moments. I can link an image of that snippet, if you'd like.
Even with Motley, we never really saw him fight seriously in the PotDE series, but he had absolutely no worries about being able to handle Morr without killing him despite the latter being so fast that he moved faster than the eye could track and his klaive swings were only visible as afterimages. He stomped the incubus that came for him at the shrine, and all he did during his fight with Lady Malys was flirt and defend himself (yet he was still able to match a major character from another faction's codex). In Masque of Vyle he was scary as hell and stomped an Archon + his retinue flat with freaky mind control powers. I feel like you're underselling the guy a bit.
Agreed, Motely never really has a showing in the Dark Eldar path books akin to when he goes full Solitaire at the end of Masque the Vyle. In that he was turning into a shadow, mind controlling people and being utterly impossible to target he was moving so fast he was essentially teleporting.
On the other hand I don't think a Solitaire could beat Lelith. Just look at the symbolism, which Harlequins are big on, that the Solitaires Soul exists to be claimed by Slaanesh and in Motely's closing paragraph of PotA he likens the Dark Eldar to play the part of Slaanesh when the other Dark Gods try take hold of the city. Lelith exemplifies this, being perfection she arguably best takes the role of Slaanesh in the metaphor and therefore would defeat the Solitaire. I know the Solitaire has beaten Greater Daemons, but it just seems different to me and while I can't support it with anything other than symbolism I still think Lelith would beat a Solitaire.
Lelith thinks the Harlequin King of a Grand Masque could be a match for her and fair play, that would be a great fight.
Unfortunately, we never really saw anything else from him, so he's currently featless other than being the only confirmed being in the galaxy that Lelith has looked at and gone 'You know what, I probably couldn't take him'.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again, the Harelequin King and Motley should have been special characters in the Harlequin codex, and they should have gotten a great harlequin HQ choice for CAD purposes if nothing else. /end tangent.
Robin5t wrote: Kharne and Eldrad are two of the top contenders IMO.
Kharne because he's ridiculously fast and strong even for an Astartes, and could bulldoze his way through most characters in the setting with sheer physical ability.
Eldrad because of his insane combat precognition ability. He basically has tens of thousands of tries to beat you before you've even started the fight.
I giggled at Eldrad, the dude that in his most recent fluff got dumpstered by a bunch of rando space maroonz.
Never, NEVER underestimate the power of marty stu plot armor.
Robin5t wrote: Kharne and Eldrad are two of the top contenders IMO.
Kharne because he's ridiculously fast and strong even for an Astartes, and could bulldoze his way through most characters in the setting with sheer physical ability.
Eldrad because of his insane combat precognition ability. He basically has tens of thousands of tries to beat you before you've even started the fight.
I giggled at Eldrad, the dude that in his most recent fluff got dumpstered by a bunch of rando space maroonz.
Never, NEVER underestimate the power of marty stu plot armor.
Jimsolo wrote: Other than Motley, do we ever see a Solitaire fighting in the fluff?
I ask because Motley kind of gets played out. Every time we see him fight, he's not that impressive.
But... I literally just gave two examples in my post?
Path of the Outcast, where one solos a Keeper of Secrets, and a fluff piece in Warriors of the Laughing God where one annihilates 12 Astartes including a Chaos Lord in moments. I can link an image of that snippet, if you'd like.
Even with Motley, we never really saw him fight seriously in the PotDE series, but he had absolutely no worries about being able to handle Morr without killing him despite the latter being so fast that he moved faster than the eye could track and his klaive swings were only visible as afterimages. He stomped the incubus that came for him at the shrine, and all he did during his fight with Lady Malys was flirt and defend himself (yet he was still able to match a major character from another faction's codex). In Masque of Vyle he was scary as hell and stomped an Archon + his retinue flat with freaky mind control powers. I feel like you're underselling the guy a bit.
Lol, sorry, my bad. I misread your initial post.
I dunno, I got the impression in that fight with Malys that he was hanging on by the skin of his teeth.
Jimsolo wrote: Other than Motley, do we ever see a Solitaire fighting in the fluff?
I ask because Motley kind of gets played out. Every time we see him fight, he's not that impressive.
But... I literally just gave two examples in my post?
Path of the Outcast, where one solos a Keeper of Secrets, and a fluff piece in Warriors of the Laughing God where one annihilates 12 Astartes including a Chaos Lord in moments. I can link an image of that snippet, if you'd like.
Even with Motley, we never really saw him fight seriously in the PotDE series, but he had absolutely no worries about being able to handle Morr without killing him despite the latter being so fast that he moved faster than the eye could track and his klaive swings were only visible as afterimages. He stomped the incubus that came for him at the shrine, and all he did during his fight with Lady Malys was flirt and defend himself (yet he was still able to match a major character from another faction's codex). In Masque of Vyle he was scary as hell and stomped an Archon + his retinue flat with freaky mind control powers. I feel like you're underselling the guy a bit.
Agreed, Motely never really has a showing in the Dark Eldar path books akin to when he goes full Solitaire at the end of Masque the Vyle. In that he was turning into a shadow, mind controlling people and being utterly impossible to target he was moving so fast he was essentially teleporting.
On the other hand I don't think a Solitaire could beat Lelith. Just look at the symbolism, which Harlequins are big on, that the Solitaires Soul exists to be claimed by Slaanesh and in Motely's closing paragraph of PotA he likens the Dark Eldar to play the part of Slaanesh when the other Dark Gods try take hold of the city. Lelith exemplifies this, being perfection she arguably best takes the role of Slaanesh in the metaphor and therefore would defeat the Solitaire. I know the Solitaire has beaten Greater Daemons, but it just seems different to me and while I can't support it with anything other than symbolism I still think Lelith would beat a Solitaire.
Lelith thinks the Harlequin King of a Grand Masque could be a match for her and fair play, that would be a great fight.
It sure would, but my money would still be on Lelith.
I also feel that an even more interesting fight would be Lelith vs Drazhar.
He did cut off all of Calgars appendages. It's fluff entry in the Codex names a good few things that it he done (assumption that most of them are in a different universe), and is worked up to be a terrifying and monstrous warrior created when a Hive Fleet is having a big issue conquering. Why this nearly 20 foot monster that is almost as old as the Tyranid race and has experience from perhaps millions of conflicts, went down to Calgar after one-rounding him on Maccarage is mystery to me.
I could understand if Calgar had a wing of Thunerhawks pelt him with bombs, or a Warlord Titan step on him....
To be frank, I don't think its the same as fighting a Greater Demon or the Avatar o Khaine.
Really? I can't remember any accomplishments much besides generic 'conquered this-or-that-place' certainly nothing like beating a named character. Really for something to be a 'threat' it has to at least pass the bar of having beaten Space Marines once.
Don't get me wrong though; Greater Daemons and the Avatar of Khaine (hah) are no better. The Avatar is literally the weakest thing in the Warhammer universe going by fluff.
@Lance845: Well...it's 1d4chan so I don't trust it much but...even putting that aside the only thing on that list that matters is that one time it got Calgar on Macragge. The other things are just, well, Tyran doesn't matter, Hodrus doesn't matter and what happened on Iyanden doesn't show its a good one-on-one fighter, it just shows that the Swarmlord literally considers Avatars of Khaine to unimportant to fight personally. It probably had a higher priority target, like a Guardian Squad, to attack and so left the job to some Carnifexes.
Ignoring things which are too supernatural I'd still say Lelith's probably the best Mortal warrior I know...but I'm willing to accept a Harlequin could exist (if they ever make on in the fluff) who could fight her too. But since I don't know I'm still saying Lelith.
Somebody already said the emperor, isn't that /thread? The guy could make a legion bend its knee against their will, defeated a full powered C'Tan that had started a cult on Mars, and killed the most powerful deamon primarch to have ever existed (post ascension Horus). The four chaos gods themselves could not best him.
As for living (maybe ambulatory would be a better word since we are kind of not sure on the emp), probably one of the daemon primarchs, them being unkillable and all.
He did cut off all of Calgars appendages. It's fluff entry in the Codex names a good few things that it he done (assumption that most of them are in a different universe), and is worked up to be a terrifying and monstrous warrior created when a Hive Fleet is having a big issue conquering. Why this nearly 20 foot monster that is almost as old as the Tyranid race and has experience from perhaps millions of conflicts, went down to Calgar after one-rounding him on Maccarage is mystery to me.
I could understand if Calgar had a wing of Thunerhawks pelt him with bombs, or a Warlord Titan step on him....
To be frank, I don't think its the same as fighting a Greater Demon or the Avatar o Khaine.
Really? I can't remember any accomplishments much besides generic 'conquered this-or-that-place' certainly nothing like beating a named character. Really for something to be a 'threat' it has to at least pass the bar of having beaten Space Marines once.
Don't get me wrong though; Greater Daemons and the Avatar of Khaine (hah) are no better. The Avatar is literally the weakest thing in the Warhammer universe going by fluff.
Marneus Calgar? Cut him to ribbons and the dude barely survived. And it devoured the whole first company of the ultramarines, plus all their PDF buddies on the southern polar fortress of Maccrage, devoured a dozen worlds in the span of two months with Leviathan, led the initial invasions of the universe.... as well as led the Tyranid race in multiple conquests on any number of worlds/universes. We can't rightly say because they're history. Discounting hsi reported feats is basically saying "Sure, you've got this list of accomplishsments, but I haven't seen you do ANYTHING that means anything in my book. Go fight a space marine, even though it says here you kicked the Ultramarine Chapter Master's bucket around."
Also currently wrecking face in that Orc empire Kryptmann managed to direct them too.
The Tyranid race is ancient, they would have to be, and we don't know how long, or how far they have traveled. But they are here, and I assume the Swarmlord is not actually his full manifestation. Why would the embodiment of the entire Hive Mind's tactical and cunning wisdom be implanted in a Hive Tyrant no bigger than a regular one? Sure they make for imposing figures, but the fluff has seen them taken down easily,
Grimgold wrote: Somebody already said the emperor, isn't that /thread? The guy could make a legion bend its knee against their will, defeated a full powered C'Tan that had started a cult on Mars, and killed the most powerful deamon primarch to have ever existed (post ascension Horus). The four chaos gods themselves could not best him.
As for living (maybe ambulatory would be a better word since we are kind of not sure on the emp), probably one of the daemon primarchs, them being unkillable and all.
He's not included in the conversation for that reason, same with the chaos gods. They are simply too powerful
Grimgold wrote: Somebody already said the emperor, isn't that /thread? The guy could make a legion bend its knee against their will, defeated a full powered C'Tan that had started a cult on Mars, and killed the most powerful deamon primarch to have ever existed (post ascension Horus). The four chaos gods themselves could not best him.
As for living (maybe ambulatory would be a better word since we are kind of not sure on the emp), probably one of the daemon primarchs, them being unkillable and all.
But he didn't defeat a fully powered C'Tan. The latest Necron Codex has the Necrons fight against an escaped Shard of the Void Dragon they had in their captivity, so the Void Dragon clearly isn't fully powered if one of his shards has been in the possession of a Necron Dynasty all this time.
Additionally using the 'four gods themselves couldn't best him' is a weak argument since we know the Chaos Gods do not interact with the material universe in such a way. Otherwise, since the Eldar Empire and its Gods endure for an insanely long time during the existence of Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle, we'd have to say that "Khorne/Tzeentch/Nurgle couldn't best the Eldar Gods" and "The Chaos Gods can't best the Hive Mind/Gork (or possibly Mork)/The Tau and a thousand other things the Chaos Gods have been incapable of destroying thus far". The fact that the Chaos Gods never fought the Emperor personally doesn't translate into him being as powerful as them, its to do with the conceit of Warp Gods that they don't interact that way with the material universe.
Making an entire Legion bend knee also is a tough thing to use to determine any powerVpower ratio with other entities; the Cacodominus could control thirteen hundred star systems but no Space Marines (despite weaker psykers like Genestealer Cult Magus' being able to do so) and the Emperor couldn't use said powers on foes like Orks in the battle at Goro or against Gharkul Blackfang. Psychic clearly doesn't work on a strict linear system, understandably seeing as it originates from the Warp, and thus its power ratio based off one feat can't be exactly translated into hard rules for other feats.
Ultimately what the most powerful entity in 40k is will probably be impossible to determine based off current fluff, although Chaos Gods and the Hive Mind have perhaps the best chance of being the single most powerful entity, and I think sticking to mortal 1-on-1 fighters is a better bet than dragging up questions of the esoteric nature of the power wielded by the likes of the Emperor, Chaos Gods, Eldar Gods, Hive Mind and Gork (or possibly Mork).
With that then said I'd still say Lelith is the best 1-on-1 combatant who's mortal that we know of.
@Carnikang: Well Marneus did come for a rematch and beat it, didn't he? Also I don't recall the Swarmlord killing the entire first company alone...or devouring worlds alone. We're talking about strength in a one-on-one fight remember?
Also I'm not discounting his feats; just pointing out none of them involve significant victories in single-combat against a major foe. You're just listing worlds and such it assisted in devouring. That's not what we're discussing here I believe.
For example, stating 'currently wrecking face in that Orc empire Kryptmann managed to direct them too,' doesn't contain any evidence of significant one-on-one victories.
Also its fine to think the Swarmlord should be stronger, but we also need to talk about it in terms of what it has done in the fluff and, in fluff, the Swarmlord does not have a very impressive track record of one-on-one fights.
I mean, I think the Avatar of Khaine should be powerful, but that doesn't change that in fluff they are horribly weak.
Anemone wrote: @Carnikang: Well Marneus did come for a rematch and beat it, didn't he? Also I don't recall the Swarmlord killing the entire first company alone...or devouring worlds alone. We're talking about strength in a one-on-one fight remember?
Also I'm not discounting his feats; just pointing out none of them involve significant victories in single-combat against a major foe. You're just listing worlds and such it assisted in devouring. That's not what we're discussing here I believe.
For example, stating 'currently wrecking face in that Orc empire Kryptmann managed to direct them too,' doesn't contain any evidence of significant one-on-one victories.
Also its fine to think the Swarmlord should be stronger, but we also need to talk about it in terms of what it has done in the fluff and, in fluff, the Swarmlord does not have a very impressive track record of one-on-one fights.
I mean, I think the Avatar of Khaine should be powerful, but that doesn't change that in fluff they are horribly weak.
I'll concede to that. I will say I'm salty about Calgar coming back after pansying out to space after Swarmy chewed on him. Then comes back for a rematch.
With the Avatar of Khaine, there is the Valedor book that sees Biel Tan's Avatar left alone on a hive fleet infested planet for days and then be found fighting until a mountain of tyranid corpses...
Although by that, Maugan Ra is the best - he solo'd a whole hive fleet!
NG77 wrote: With the Avatar of Khaine, there is the Valedor book that sees Biel Tan's Avatar left alone on a hive fleet infested planet for days and then be found fighting until a mountain of tyranid corpses...
Although by that, Maugan Ra is the best - he solo'd a whole hive fleet!
It was a tendril, but the feat is still ridiculous nontheless. Maugan Ra is basically a walking meme.
I wouldn't say the Swarmlord is wrecking face on Octaria (the planet the nids got diverted to). GeeDubs advanced the ork storyline a bit in Ghazzy''s supplement. Waaaaagh! Ghazzy showed up to reinforce the Octaria orks and succeeded on wiping out all the nids from that the tendril that was diverted there. The Orks are currently fixing up defences and fortifications as they expect another tendril to start another invasion. Or maybe the Swarm lord decided to bail out of the tendril that got diverted and kinda just lulz around in space till after its fleet it's hive ship's were destroyed and joined another incoming tendril cuz reasons. I don't know overly much about Nids and perhaps they could teleport the swarm lords dna and memories across space for other hive ships to use. Plausible at least for the memories. No mention of any Swarm lord on Octaria, just a mother of all mawlocs got a bit of attention before getting torn up by Ghazzy. Maybe it went to a different planet.
I'll concede to that. I will say I'm salty about Calgar coming back after pansying out to space after Swarmy chewed on him. Then comes back for a rematch.
Hey, for what its worth, I'm pretty salty about it too. And don't feel bad, the Swarmlord's still at least beaten Marneus once, that's a huge victory for any non-Space Marine Character. I mean I'm still salty about Eldrad losing to Artemis too.
I mean, personally, I'd envisage the Swarmlord as being stronger in combat than any Chapter Master, Lelith or Kharn just by stint of being a giant biological weapon engineered with the full resources of an enormously ancient alien intelligence, I'd imagine it and Greater Daemons (like the Avatar of Khaine) should be out of the league of mortals like Chapter Masters and Succubi, but...I don't write 40k fluff.
@NG77: Yeah but that's kinda like with the Swarmlord; it just beat a bunch of mooks. Anyone can beat a bunch of mooks. Marneus held an entire Waaagh!!! up by himself. The Avatar of Khaine really is just a joke in the fluff and it doesn't seem like that status will be changed anytime soon.
Maugan Ra, I will agree, is by far and away the most badass Eldar in fluff.
@ProwlerPC: Yeah the Swarmlord wasn't mentioned to be on Octaria but I'd imagine its in the system fighting Orks *shrugs* Honestly, because of how the Tyranid are, I'd really love a reveal that the Swarmlord can be duplicated. A reveal sort of like Meta-Cooler's from Dragon Ball Z; "The Hive Mind instantly corrects any fault in my design even if that fault is just that I only have one body!" and then the enemy has to deal with an army of Swarmlords.
King Pariah wrote: I wouldn't even consider Lucius, he's a bit of a Worf in the fluff prior to gaining the favor of Slaanesh.
Lucius's whole schtick depends on him being beaten so it's unsurprising really.
Anemone wrote:
I mean, personally, I'd envisage the Swarmlord as being stronger in combat than any Chapter Master, Lelith or Kharn just by stint of being a giant biological weapon engineered with the full resources of an enormously ancient alien intelligence, I'd imagine it and Greater Daemons (like the Avatar of Khaine) should be out of the league of mortals like Chapter Masters and Succubi, but...I don't write 40k fluff.
Personally I see the Swarmlord as mainly being the strategist. A lot of emphasis is placed on it being smarter than... the Hive Mind? Whatever directs Tyranids normally. It can stab people up as well (like every great general other than Creed in 40K it seems) but I feel like it focusses on being a clever clogs. After all, the Hive Mind can just use bio-titans for actually stomping stuff.
Speaking of bio-titans, are we excluding them?
Come to think of it, the Bloodtide Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath was probably the most powerful Daemon I've read about. Singlehandedly turns a planet insane (or explodes others) and is so powerful the Grey Knights have to use extra protection? How many beings could resist the Bloodtide?
Carnikang wrote: Marneus Calgar? Cut him to ribbons and the dude barely survived.
And then got pummelled by Calgar the next time. Works both ways.
And it devoured the whole first company of the ultramarines, plus all their PDF buddies on the southern polar fortress of Maccrage, devoured a dozen worlds in the span of two months with Leviathan, led the initial invasions of the universe.... as well as led the Tyranid race in multiple conquests on any number of worlds/universes. We can't rightly say because they're history. Discounting hsi reported feats is basically saying "Sure, you've got this list of accomplishsments, but I haven't seen you do ANYTHING that means anything in my book. Go fight a space marine, even though it says here you kicked the Ultramarine Chapter Master's bucket around."
Actually, we have no idea if the Swarmlord went underground to slaughter the last of the First Company guys, and certainly didn't do it single handedly. As far as most sources say, they were just overwhelmed by Tyranids in the lowest chamber. No Swarmlord influence, just Tyranids in general. If you want to attribute all the actions of an army to it's leader, then Calgar far outclasses Swarmlord.
The Southern Fortress wasn't completely overrun - the Seventh Company found survivors, who went on to clear the place.
We can't accurately confirm anything regarding beyond this universe, so no record of the Swarmlord before then.
As far as achievements, this is all I've pulled off of Lexicanum:
Lexicanum wrote:Destroyer of the Kha'la Empire
745.M41 - Tyran and Thandros - The Swarmlord led Hive Fleet Behemoth's final assaults against Tyran and Thandros during the Imperium's first contact with the Tyranids, utterly decimating the enemy forces.
745.M41 - Battle for Macragge
During the Battle of Cold Steel Ridge, the Swarmlord directed Hive Fleet Behemoth to defeat every one of Marneus Calgar's and the Ultramarines' tactics. Calgar himself was almost killed by the Swarmlord, but managed to escape alive with the help of his Honour Guard while the Swarmlord killed the commander of Calgar's Honour Guard, Aloysius.
During the Battle of the Polar Fortresses, the Swarmlord led the attack on the Polar Fortresses of Macragge, defended by First Captain Saul Invictus of the Ultramarines' 1st Company. In the end, the entire 1st Company was killed and official Imperial reports listed the Swarmlord as slain.
991.M41 - Ichar IV - The Swarmlord is defeated in an epic duel with Marneus Calgar during the Battle of Ichar IV
997.M41 - Hodur Sector - The Swarmlord returned to attack the Imperium, leading the swiftest and greatest planetary invasions of Hive Fleet Leviathan. In the space of four months the Swarmlord oversaw the absorption of two dozen worlds including Talon, the homeworld of the Storm Falcons, and Endragiga, a major shipyard of the region.
The latest Imperial reports indicate the Swarmlord is assaulting the Orkish Empire of Octarius.
Undated:
Scouring of the Megyre System
Destruction of the Brynarr race.
Consumption of Waaagh! Gorgluk.
Battle on Kolovan, where Swarmlord was killed by Ortan Cassius and later was resurrected on one of the hive's ships
Also currently wrecking face in that Orc empire Kryptmann managed to direct them too.
As far as I've read, it looks more like the Orks are winning, what with Ghazghkull joining in.
The Tyranid race is ancient, they would have to be, and we don't know how long, or how far they have traveled. But they are here, and I assume the Swarmlord is not actually his full manifestation. Why would the embodiment of the entire Hive Mind's tactical and cunning wisdom be implanted in a Hive Tyrant no bigger than a regular one? Sure they make for imposing figures, but the fluff has seen them taken down easily,
Because reasons?
I think it's more because you only need the strategist to survive encounters with normal enemies, so the Hive Tyrant bioform is probably best - it's fast enough to move around and lead, not large enough to draw Titan-level ordnance, but can still fight off threats up to Calgar level.
He's less of a warrior, and more of a strategist.
Personally I see the Swarmlord as mainly being the strategist. A lot of emphasis is placed on it being smarter than... the Hive Mind? Whatever directs Tyranids normally. It can stab people up as well (like every great general other than Creed in 40K it seems) but I feel like it focusses on being a clever clogs. After all, the Hive Mind can just use bio-titans for actually stomping stuff.
Speaking of bio-titans, are we excluding them?
Come to think of it, the Bloodtide Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath was probably the most powerful Daemon I've read about. Singlehandedly turns a planet insane (or explodes others) and is so powerful the Grey Knights have to use extra protection? How many beings could resist the Bloodtide?
*Shrugs* personally that seems strange to me. Why make the strategist so multi-disciplinarian instead of focused on an explicit task and performing it to its utmost ability? Still that's just my feeling on the matter, I can't really make an argument concerning it one way or another.
I'd imagine anything in the Super Heavy Class size would be excluded, yes, since otherwise this is just a matter of Titans and Bio-Titans and then we might as well talk about space ships and space stations and then it gets even more complicated.
The Bloodthirster's problem is, again, just that no-one it beats matters so its hard to say anything about it compared to other fighters.
Honestly though it is true that a single objective best 1-on-1 fighter in 40k is probably impossible.
Anemone wrote: [
*Shrugs* personally that seems strange to me. Why make the strategist so multi-disciplinarian instead of focused on an explicit task and performing it to its utmost ability? Still that's just my feeling on the matter, I can't really make an argument concerning it one way or another.
I'd imagine anything in the Super Heavy Class size would be excluded, yes, since otherwise this is just a matter of Titans and Bio-Titans and then we might as well talk about space ships and space stations and then it gets even more complicated.
The Bloodthirster's problem is, again, just that no-one it beats matters so its hard to say anything about it compared to other fighters.
Honestly though it is true that a single objective best 1-on-1 fighter in 40k is probably impossible.
40K does it all the time. Leadership equals badassery (or whatever that trope is). Generally the higher ranking someone is the more powerful they will personally be.
I ask because unlike most other Titans bio-titans would be a single organism (and thus fulfil the best 1-on-1 combatant criteria).
Fair point. But that's the same with everybody. Unless you count Eldrad defeating Abaddon in close combat in what is probably his most impressive feat.
@SomeRandomEvilGuy: Oh, I know it does, I don't agree with it, and think in the Tyranid's case it is particularly silly, but I don't deny it, hence why I said I can't make an argument about it one way or another.
Does Eldrad beating Abaddon still count as canon? With the entire Eye Of Terror fluff now being non-canonical by Death Watch I actually thought that Eldrad's scuffle with Abby was pretty non-canonical too now.
That being said I have no doubt that Eldrad has a better chance of beating Abaddon then of beating a random Space Marine. There is a bit of a difference in power there.
Also I don't mean to ruin the fun, by no means, I enjoy doing it too. More just noting it to myself is all.
Anemone wrote: @SomeRandomEvilGuy: Oh, I know it does, I don't agree with it, and think in the Tyranid's case it is particularly silly, but I don't deny it, hence why I said I can't make an argument about it one way or another.
Does Eldrad beating Abaddon still count as canon? With the entire Eye Of Terror fluff now being non-canonical by Death Watch I actually thought that Eldrad's scuffle with Abby was pretty non-canonical too now.
That being said I have no doubt that Eldrad has a better chance of beating Abaddon then of beating a random Space Marine. There is a bit of a difference in power there.
Also I don't mean to ruin the fun, by no means, I enjoy doing it too. More just noting it to myself is all.
I do agree with you and I would prefer more commanders in 40K to be good at that but not at personally fighting. A Swarmlord is far more valuable for it's mind than it's power after all.
What time period did it occur in? As far as I know it was always set before the 13th Black Crusade.
How about this. Every nid is basically non sentient. The very few that are are just fragments of a single entity's consciousness to different extents.
Old One Eye is a portion of the will of the Swarm Lord because they are both just a portion of the consciousness of the Great Devourer.
So I propose this.... The Hive Mind. Because all it's infinite bodys are still just the one character, and it is the one entity behind everything the nids have ever done. On it's own it made the imperium so afraid they committed the most horrendous act against itself since the horus heresy.
It's every victory is exterminatus for the looser. No single entity in 40k has personally killed so many, destroyed so much, laid waste to world after world after world. Many bodys, many limbs, one character, and it can take anyone one on one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: siege of Vrkas part 3 and to counter the hive mind he can summon demons according to lore they appear around him attracted by the blood shed and he easily withstands any physicic assault and is the BEST combatant of Khorne (except for Khorne) the freaking god of war so he must be the best and since Khaines is dead Khorne is the only god of war.
Lance845 wrote:How about this. Every nid is basically non sentient. The very few that are are just fragments of a single entity's consciousness to different extents.
Old One Eye is a portion of the will of the Swarm Lord because they are both just a portion of the consciousness of the Great Devourer.
So I propose this.... The Hive Mind. Because all it's infinite bodys are still just the one character, and it is the one entity behind everything the nids have ever done. On it's own it made the imperium so afraid they committed the most horrendous act against itself since the horus heresy.
It's every victory is exterminatus for the looser. No single entity in 40k has personally killed so many, destroyed so much, laid waste to world after world after world. Many bodys, many limbs, one character, and it can take anyone one on one.
If we're including the Hive Mind, I propose we include Khorne. Because he controls all Khorne daemons, the strongest ones in combat, and therefore is just one character.
Of course, seeing as that isn't allowed, I don't think the Hive Mind (especially as the MIND, just the consciousness without a body) should count. It's just as much an entity as the Chaos Gods, or Gork and Mork.
Sicarius is good, but excluding UM plot armour, not as good as Lelith. She is straight up NASTY. However, I think I would rate Sicarius above Lucius, but Lucius' little trick would easily make short work of Sicarius.
I think the main fight comes up between Kharn (seeing as we can't include daemon primarchs), Lelith, and the Harlequin King. I don't think any unpowered Astartes could match that.
Lance845 wrote:How about this. Every nid is basically non sentient. The very few that are are just fragments of a single entity's consciousness to different extents.
Old One Eye is a portion of the will of the Swarm Lord because they are both just a portion of the consciousness of the Great Devourer.
So I propose this.... The Hive Mind. Because all it's infinite bodys are still just the one character, and it is the one entity behind everything the nids have ever done. On it's own it made the imperium so afraid they committed the most horrendous act against itself since the horus heresy.
It's every victory is exterminatus for the looser. No single entity in 40k has personally killed so many, destroyed so much, laid waste to world after world after world. Many bodys, many limbs, one character, and it can take anyone one on one.
If we're including the Hive Mind, I propose we include Khorne. Because he controls all Khorne daemons, the strongest ones in combat, and therefore is just one character.
Of course, seeing as that isn't allowed, I don't think the Hive Mind (especially as the MIND, just the consciousness without a body) should count. It's just as much an entity as the Chaos Gods, or Gork and Mork.
Sicarius is good, but excluding UM plot armour, not as good as Lelith. She is straight up NASTY. However, I think I would rate Sicarius above Lucius, but Lucius' little trick would easily make short work of Sicarius.
I think the main fight comes up between Kharn (seeing as we can't include daemon primarchs), Lelith, and the Harlequin King. I don't think any unpowered Astartes could match that.
I dunno about the results of sicarius vs Lucius... pretty sure sicarius's ego is large enough that you'd have two minds inhabiting the same body.
