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Remember, Kharn has been beaten (although not for a long time). The too that come to mind off the top of my head are by Loken in Galaxy in Flames (who then lost to Abaddon), and by someone unspecified in the Siege of Terra (not a primarch though, they were all on the vengeful spirit). In the second one at least he died. I would vote for Hesperex over Kharn.

 Nerak wrote:


The Custodes Captain. You know, the guy who's sparred against primarchs and won, boarded and survived Horus flagship and has been fighting deamons nonstop for the last 10.000 years.

I would like to know more.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I'll put my money behind Lelith Hesperax.

If the battle was naked on naked, she would definitely win.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:


Kharn has been undefeated for millenia. Lelith Hesperax has only been around a fraction of that time, (reasonably interpreted as centuries) but has never even sustained serious injury.

What makes you think Lelith is so young? She takes part in Vects coupe in M.35, and at this point she is already leading the cult of strife and has made a name for herself, suggesting she's been an important figure in the Cult scene for a while since. I'd guess she is at least 6 thousand years old (1 thousand years to get to the top, 5 thousand at the top) and to still be at the top of her game in the arena must put her in the top contenders.

Good points, she is older than I was remembering. (She's still quite a bit younger than Kharn though.)

Younger than Kharn as measured in real space time measurements, but given the fickle nature of time in the warp (and Kharn does spend time in warpspace, doesn't he?) and, consequently, a comparably fickle nature of time in the webway, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to come to the conclusion that Kharn has more years of experience than Lelith.


I think Lelith has my vote, with Abbadon a close second and Kharn nipping at Abbadon's heels...at least among the non-primarch/daemon/phoenixlord crowd. Thousands of years in combat without an injury serious enough to leave a scar is a helluva accolade.

PourSpelur wrote:
Certain questions only have one answer.
Someone asks " Who'd win? Batman or.." just cut them off there. No need for the second name because Batman wins.
Same thing here. " Who'd win? Kharn or..." Kharn. Every. Single. Time.

What about 40k batman? Konrad Curze vs Kharn?

I'll put in my three votes and their accomplishments.

Ghazzy - Took down a Greater Daemon before his first invasion of Armageddon, Gave Belial a whooping, and soloed a Mawloc (he actually got hurt on that one and had to take moment of rest).

Creed - His incoming fist might be a carefully hidden titan that's about to stomp his enemy flat.

Fulgrim - Because he killed 2 Primarch''s and still lives unlike other traitor wannabes that can't get gak done. Bonus points for putting Rowboat Girlyman in his current predicament.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
[
Younger than Kharn as measured in real space time measurements, but given the fickle nature of time in the warp (and Kharn does spend time in warpspace, doesn't he?) and, consequently, a comparably fickle nature of time in the webway, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to come to the conclusion that Kharn has more years of experience than Lelith.

In general it's probably safe to say that that the original traitor Legionnaries have had about 10000 years of fighting. It's pretty much always said that they have foguht for 10000 years when they're brought with little allusion to how it might have been more or less (and if one does think of it that way purely due to probability they've probably been fighting for longer).

Exergy wrote:What about 40k batman? Konrad Curze vs Kharn?

Curze is a Primarch. He'd beat almost anybody who isn't a Primarch. And that's including Avatar's of Khaine and Greater Daemons.

ProwlerPC wrote:Fulgrim - Because he killed 2 Primarch''s and still lives unlike other traitor wannabes that can't get gak done. Bonus points for putting Rowboat Girlyman in his current predicament.

In fairness the first time he had the assistance of a Daemon (without which he would have lost) and the second time he was a full blown Daemon Prince so it wasn't just his prowess at play.

 Exergy wrote:

PourSpelur wrote:
Certain questions only have one answer.
Someone asks " Who'd win? Batman or.." just cut them off there. No need for the second name because Batman wins.
Same thing here. " Who'd win? Kharn or..." Kharn. Every. Single. Time.

What about 40k batman? Konrad Curze vs Kharn?

Kharn would still win...but Space Batman planned to lose from the beginning, thus wins!

The Silent King, and many other Necron Lords, are literally unkillable, and have devices at their disposal that can, for example, wipe out an entire star system instantly whilst not being near said star.

While not necessarily true of daemons, everyone else in this thread usually needs some kind of ground to fight on. And those daemons need psychic, emotional people, which is another thing Necrons are bent on eliminating.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
[
Younger than Kharn as measured in real space time measurements, but given the fickle nature of time in the warp (and Kharn does spend time in warpspace, doesn't he?) and, consequently, a comparably fickle nature of time in the webway, I'm not sure it would be appropriate to come to the conclusion that Kharn has more years of experience than Lelith.

In general it's probably safe to say that that the original traitor Legionnaries have had about 10000 years of fighting. It's pretty much always said that they have foguht for 10000 years when they're brought with little allusion to how it might have been more or less (and if one does think of it that way purely due to probability they've probably been fighting for longer).

And the statement that they've fought for 10000 years is, I believe, almost always from an Imperium perspective (aka that Real Space time measurement I stated earlier), especially given that...

The fickle nature of time in the warp seems fairly well documented, it seems well established in the lore that time is a nearly meaningless concept in Warp Space. When discussing Chaos Space Marine age, this thread includes several direct references to 1000s of years passing in Real Space while only a few years pass as percieved by those in the Warp.

I'm not saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for Kharn to be more experienced, merely that assuming his 10000 year span in Real Space translates directly to 10000 years of actual experienced time is not really an appropriate presumption.

I see a distinct lack of Sigismund in this thread.

Kitten, the Custodes Captain, has gone through more gak than I can count...
boarding Horus' flagship
Sparring with Primarchs
Siege of Terra
and the 10,000 years ensuing...

I'd say he has good odds, because he's kept his armour on.

I think we all know the real winner here.

Kharn is a monster

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It depends on how you define 'one on one'. A Revenant Titan has a single pilot, after all.

Isn't the revenant piloted my a live pilot and a dead twins spirit? Or is that the phantom?

 snykyninja wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
It depends on how you define 'one on one'. A Revenant Titan has a single pilot, after all.

Isn't the revenant piloted my a live pilot and a dead twins spirit? Or is that the phantom?

That's the wraithknight you're talking about I believe.

My money is on random edgy Space Marine, they always win*

*still bitter about Coheria*

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
My money is on random edgy Space Marine, they always win*

*still bitter about Coheria*

Actually that's a fair point. If we're going by Fluff then, no matter what, at the end the Space Marine will win, even when he loses.

By that logic, I'd like to nominate 'Anyone fighting an Avatar of Khaine'!

No, there was that one time where the best fortune-telling psyker in the galaxy beat that squad of deathwatch because he saw them coming and was able to plan accordingly. Like he's done for millennia and is really good at. Nope, Space Marines don't always win. Not true. Nuh uh.

A Swarmlord. Near wholly independent of the Hive Mind but using it's total accumulated knowledge of every battle ever fought on untold worlds in who knows how many galaxys.

Bigger then a shed with 4 sentient swords that devour their targets life force.

On the table it's overpriced crap. By the fluff there is no 1 person that can stand up to it.

 Lance845 wrote:

On the table it's overpriced crap. By the fluff there is no 1 person that can stand up to it.

Calgar beat the Swarmlord the second time they faced.

 Robin5t wrote:
By that logic, I'd like to nominate 'Anyone fighting an Avatar of Khaine'!

Oh my goodness, its incredibly sad, but very, very true. No-one can actually lose to Avatars of Khaine

@deathmagiks: I know.

@Lance845: Yeah...Calgar beat the Swarmlord. Didn't Farsight also? Or did he just face it, I'm unsure. Regardless Calgar's definitely above the Swarmlord (he is a Marine after all), but then again Cato's killed a Transcendent C'tan and Calgar caved in...was it An'ggrath's Skull I think in Blood Oath?

Hmm. Calgar killed an Avatar, too, didn't he? So he fits my criteria, as well!

@Robin5t: I do think that you have an airtight case there. No-one ever loses to Avatars of Khaine so anyone fighting an Avatar of Khaine automatically becomes the best for that period just to make sure they win.

Wouldn't want Avatars of Khaine to be, like, impressive or anything now would we?

(My word making fun of Craftworld Eldar is so easy, they just absolutely suck in the fluff, really quite sad)

I wonder what would happen if an Avatar of Khaine fought another Avatar of Khaine, though.

Would the universe just straight-up implode as two beings incapable of not losing face each other in battle? Is this the real reason why there's an Eye of Terror?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

On the table it's overpriced crap. By the fluff there is no 1 person that can stand up to it.

Calgar beat the Swarmlord the second time they faced.

I'm sure he fed more of his Honorguard to it to make it sluggish.

But Calgar is the only known chapter master to beat an Avatar of Khaine and the Swarmlord, beings both ancient and terrible in power, as well as skill.

Calgar cheated.

Calgar also beat An'ggarath (kinda) that probably shouldn't be forgotten.

Then again Logan beat a Bloodthirster breaking out a Lord of Skulls, and Cato killed a Transcendent C'tan so what'evs.

Don't know if Calgar cheated. Just had to keep up with Cato perhaps and so has been hitting the gym a lot more lately.

Besides I don't know if the Swarmlord in fluff counts as much of a threat, has it ever one-on-one beaten anyone important? I mean its obviously not Avatar of Khaine weak, but that's because even Grots beat that guy.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think Kharn has the highest combination of combat experience and body-kinesthetic intelligence in the setting, easily. However, he suffers from limitations based on his physiology (space marines being built for durability rather than flexibility).

My vote remains for Lelith Hesperax; she's her body-kinesthetic intelligence is at least in the ballpark of Kharn's, and her body is capable of utilizing it to a degree that Kharn's is not.

Not to mention that Lelith by nature is a 1-on-1 combatant, whereas Kharn is more of a "kill anything that moves" combatant.
What also makes Lelith so impressive is that she does all this without the aid of combat drugs like so many other Wyches.
Never been defeated, never suffered serious injured (audiences marvel at her "unscarred" skin)

Plus, she is damn sexy, so my vote is for Lelith

-

 Anemone wrote:
Calgar also beat An'ggarath (kinda) that probably shouldn't be forgotten.

Then again Logan beat a Bloodthirster breaking out a Lord of Skulls, and Cato killed a Transcendent C'tan so what'evs.

Don't know if Calgar cheated. Just had to keep up with Cato perhaps and so has been hitting the gym a lot more lately.

Besides I don't know if the Swarmlord in fluff counts as much of a threat, has it ever one-on-one beaten anyone important? I mean its obviously not Avatar of Khaine weak, but that's because even Grots beat that guy.

He did cut off all of Calgars appendages. It's fluff entry in the Codex names a good few things that it he done (assumption that most of them are in a different universe), and is worked up to be a terrifying and monstrous warrior created when a Hive Fleet is having a big issue conquering. Why this nearly 20 foot monster that is almost as old as the Tyranid race and has experience from perhaps millions of conflicts, went down to Calgar after one-rounding him on Maccarage is mystery to me.
I could understand if Calgar had a wing of Thunerhawks pelt him with bombs, or a Warlord Titan step on him....

To be frank, I don't think its the same as fighting a Greater Demon or the Avatar o Khaine.

I'd have to go with a swarm lord.