Is anybody keeping up with the Traitor Legions updates?

I'm not sure that I like these updates. Basically, it looks like they're giving out VoTLW for free along with legion specific "chapter tactics." So this means that they get the chapter tactics and the extra LD, but they still cost a point cheaper.

But ok, ok. Small beans.

Death Guard has me deeply concerned.

Basic CSM in this legion are going to be cheaper than necrons, are going to be more flexible than necrons and more durable than necrons.

Is anybody else concerned about this?

Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

16ppm actually. But who is counting anyway?

I will say though that they maybe went a bit far with the Death Guard. Free Fearless and FnP at the cost of -1I was good enough, there was no need to give them all Relentless too. It doesn't break them, but it just seems too much compared to the other Legions (grumbles when gazing upon my beloved Word Bearers).

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

I'll freely admit that DG are incredibly points efficient now with their buff, but titling the thread "OP Death Guard Cheese" was probably not the best move. Its hardly cheese

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
16ppm actually. But who is counting anyway?

Where are you getting 16 ppm? VotLW is a free upgrade if you take a legion detachment.

13 ppm for base marine + 2 ppm for MoN, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

I'll freely admit that DG are incredibly points efficient now with their buff, but titling the thread "OP Death Guard Cheese" was probably not the best move. Its hardly cheese

"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

MoN is +3ppm

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
MoN is +3ppm

So it is. My bad.

Still, though:

What you have with the new death guard marines at 16 ppm is basically a better version of a Necron Immortal. Necron Immortals cost 17 ppm, and I don't think that anybody is going to disagree with me when I say that necrons are too points efficient already.

Which just proves my point:

Death guard rules are OP cheese.

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

How many skies falling does this make, I've lost count?

 BBAP wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

Yes, it is.

"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

Well I can tell this thread is going to be at the top of Dakka for the next couple of weeks... for all the wrong reasons

No it means they're actually worth what you pay for them. I.E you don't feel like you've shot yourself in the foot by taking them.

Necron Immortals... you mean that unit no one takes aside from the token tax required to run the Core Necron Formation? You are comparing them to one of the few Necron units that people actual half-consider being over costed by a point.

A 5-man Immortal Unit also costs 5 points cheaper than a basic DG squad (champion tax).

The Immortal Squad is also armed with rapid-fire Heavy Bolters.

DG and Immortals trade a point in offence for a point in defence. Not only that, but you're forgetting Reanimation Protocols is better than FnP: an Immortal still gets RP against Str 10 or Instant Death via some other method while the DG marine doesn't.

Not only that but the Immortals can at least threaten tanks at range. They're unlikely to cause damage, but they're more likely than Death Guard.



Are the DG rules a bit much? Maybe yes. As I said, I disagree with them getting free Relentless on top of everything else. But OP they are not.

 Traditio wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

Yes, it is.

"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

in a world where "gakky units" is what we're aspiring to

everywhere else "points efficient" means "maximum output for minimum points"

that is what units should be

anything that isn't that, sucks

you want 40k to have a load of overcosted suck units though

that's your schtick

it's boring

stop

 Traditio wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

Yes, it is.

"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

That line of thinking is oddly shaped. Being points efficient conpared to being undercosted is like an apple compared to an orange.

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

No, Traditio. For you, "Is not an upupgraded Space Marine in a Rhino" is the exact definition of OP cheese.

They are not OP. More durable yes, but they were horrible under powered before. They now need to be engaged by different units to kill quickly, but will still die.

They don't auto-fold to str8 ap3. still die vs str 10 ap3 all the same.

EDIT: click to fast: still pathetic damage output.

Yea. While it seems like a huge bone has been tossed our way (finally), damage output on anything in the codex besides a heldrake is minimal, and heldrakes themselves are still overpriced.

A couple plasma guns here and there is a scratch on the surface in a D scythe, pseudo rending, grav spam, gargantuan creature super heavy era of 40k.

Traditio wrote:Is anybody keeping up with the Traitor Legions updates?

I'm not sure that I like these updates. Basically, it looks like they're giving out VoTLW for free along with legion specific "chapter tactics." So this means that they get the chapter tactics and the extra LD, but they still cost a point cheaper.

But ok, ok. Small beans.

Death Guard has me deeply concerned.

Basic CSM in this legion are going to be cheaper than necrons, are going to be more flexible than necrons and more durable than necrons.

Is anybody else concerned about this?

Traditio wrote:

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

Traditio wrote:
Where are you getting 16 ppm? VotLW is a free upgrade if you take a legion detachment.

13 ppm for base marine + 2 ppm for MoN, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.

Traditio wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

Traditio wrote:
So it is. My bad.

Still, though:

What you have with the new death guard marines at 16 ppm is basically a better version of a Necron Immortal. Necron Immortals cost 17 ppm, and I don't think that anybody is going to disagree with me when I say that necrons are too points efficient already.

Which just proves my point:

Death guard rules are OP cheese.

Traditio wrote:Yes, it is.

"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

I would like to submit a formal request that you change your avatar, as you're giving people from the South a bad name showing the Confederate battle standard associated with all your incessant whining. Seriously man, I'm in Mississippi. The Confederate battle flag is part of my state's flag and with every post like this you make it digs the proverbial hole deeper. Stop it.

Death Guard are good now. They're not broken, they're where they should have been all along in my opinion. Let the Chaos Players have their good times man. Your shrill screech got old a while back. How about you actually play against it and give it a fair shake before you start yelling on here regarding how good or bad something *really* is.

In closing, I will reiterate: Stop it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Can a mod please change the name of this thread to "Er ma gerd ma nercrerns!"

Never thought I would see the day where necron and iron hands players would complain about CSM not being underpowered and overcosted as feth, but instead they are moderatly acceptable on the table. I advise any player who thinks they are overpowered to read both the necron codex and CSM codex again. Still think they are OP gak in comparison? Then get back to reading son.

TL;DR for the OP: "an army gets something that my 5th edition C:SM army can't do, OP CHEEEEEESE".

Well, it's time to set the clocks again aint it?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well, it's time to set the clocks again aint it?

33 minutes. OP khorne bezerkerd!

awh poor little Traditio...

all those bolters... man... thats so strong man... being able to shoot a heavy bolter and rapid fire some bolters and charge... oh my goodness... thats.. oh wow...

But obviously gladius transport spam is fine like that perfectly balanced.

If CSM could take grav cannons or grav guns, then there'd be an issue, but currently its literally just a unit of space marines with worse ATSKNF, and worse RP.

I don't see the issue, its a bit much, but its not game breaking cheese.

Relentless is only an issue with Havocs and Chosen, but when are they ever going to charge?

That said, a lot of you are not understanding how durable things are in the long run. You know how good Obliterators can actually be now? Even Mutilators end up being below mediocre now because they can actually tarpit anything forever.

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

Oh, lordy. This cringe-worthy statement just says it all about Dakka's favorite troll.

FYI Traditio, Space Marines are incredibly points efficient, especially in a Gladius (or DA Lion's Blade) where you don't have to actually pay any points for transports besides if you want to put upgrades on them. I never hear you call Marines cheese. Oh wait, you're a Marine player, so Marines are automatically exempt from being cheese.

I don't play Death Guard, nor do I plan to in the near future (mostly because I don't like anything Nurgle, being a Khorne man myself), but I'm happy to see CSM get some love for once. They've been languishing on the bottom of the competitive pile for years now, so they deserve some good rules and formations. Honestly it's probably still not enough, but we'll probably have to wait until 8th edition before CSM get the true rework that they so desperately need. The new stuff is definitely not cheese, it's just on par with some other armies now.

Whine all you want to though, it's good for a chuckle every once in a while!

As I said, Relentless doesn't make them OP but it's probably a bit much on top of all the already existing bonuses. Like do they really need to be able to charge after rapid firing? No, but they now can if they really need to.


And yes DG Obliterators are Tough. At 76ppm they might actually be worth it now rather than being taken because everything else is just flat out bad.

A Space Marine player is complaining about CSM cheese? Just because one unit in a codex got a few buffs? Just grav-cannon them down if you are so worried about them. Or spam free transports at them. Or literally all of the tools your codex gives you to deal with them.

ZergSmasher wrote:FYI Traditio, Space Marines are incredibly points efficient, especially in a Gladius (or DA Lion's Blade) where you don't have to actually pay any points for transports besides if you want to put upgrades on them.

That doesn't make space marines points efficient. That makes the gladius strike force points efficient.

And guess what? People commonly complain about the gladius strike force being OP and undercosted.

I agree with that sentiment.

Space marines (I'll assume you mean tactical marines, assault marines and devastator marines), however, by themselves, are not commonly considered points efficient unless they are wielding grav cannons, are in a free rhino and have white scars chapter tactics (or some similar thing).

I never hear you call Marines cheese. Oh wait, you're a Marine player, so Marines are automatically exempt from being cheese.

There's lots of cheese in the SM codex. But if you compare what a deathguard CSM gets for 16 points and you compare it to what an iron hands tactical marine gets for 14...yeah. No contest. The deathguard CSM isn't just 2 ppm better. By right, its points cost should be higher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A Space Marine player is complaining about CSM cheese? Just because one unit in a codex got a few buffs? Just grav-cannon them down if you are so worried about them. Or spam free transports at them. Or literally all of the tools your codex gives you to deal with them.

You understand that "C:SM has cheese" is not a legitimate answer to my claim that deathguard is cheese, yes?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Oh wait, you're a Marine player, so Marines are automatically exempt from being cheese.

Unless you use grav, or drop pods, or anything else that doesn't fit in the OP's 5th edition C:SM army.

Compared to the capabilities of the Codex I think the cost is fair. You can't just compare one unit with a broadly similar unit apples to apples. You need to take account the context in which that unit exists. CSM don't have nearly the same abilities to buff their troops like other codices do. They just have this one unit that makes them able to compete.

I think the entire fact that Iron Hands marines have the option to take Gladius, and grav cannons. That instantly makes them better.

Additionally, Iron hands get smash father, centurions, grav, and gladius, sure in a battle of a squad of DG vs a squad of IH, the DG *MIGHT* win, but army vs army, space marines take it.

Stop Traditio, honestly. Its pathetic.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I think the entire fact that Iron Hands marines have the option to take Gladius, and grav cannons. That instantly makes them better.

That doesn't make Iron Hands tactical marines better. That makes the battle company (not the gladius strike force in general: all that the gladius does is confer UM chapter tactics) and grav cannons patently OP.

This is not my personal opinion. This is, broadly speaking, public consensus.

 Traditio wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I think the entire fact that Iron Hands marines have the option to take Gladius, and grav cannons. That instantly makes them better.

That doesn't make Iron Hands tactical marines better. That makes the battle company (not the gladius strike force in general: all that the gladius does is confer UM chapter tactics) and grav cannons patently OP.

This is not my personal opinion. This is, broadly speaking, public consensus.

So if chaos takes good upgrades but marines don't chaos is better?
If you take Iron hands demi they're almost the same. ATSKNF is still best leadership rule.

And still nurgle marines are still not OP.

 Traditio wrote:
This is not my personal opinion. This is, broadly speaking, public consensus.

Public consensus is the reason the world was flat for thousands of years. feth public consensus, basically.

We've already established that your idea of "OP" is twisted up its own arse. i think at this point we're just arguing for your gratification. Please continue to believe Plague Marines are "OP".

I cannot wait for Traditio to reply 'well the earth is flat duh'

If I take an iron hands CAD with a chaplain and iron hands tacticals with plasma guns, and my opponent takes an equivalent CAD with nothing but a dark apostle and death guard CSM squads with plasma guns, chances are, I lose the vast majority of the time.

No. That's not fair.

Because you're not using every tool available to you. The strength of Iron Hands is not plasma tacticals. It's dreadnoughts and such.
The strength of Death Guard is CSM squads. You are using a subpar army against the best the enemy can bring.

 Verviedi wrote:
Because you're not using every tool available to you. The strength of Iron Hands is not plasma tacticals. It's dreadnoughts and such.
The strength of Death Guard is CSM squads. You are using a subpar army against the best the enemy can bring.

One of the Iron Hands chapter tactics is a 6+ FNP roll. That doesn't work on dreadnoughts. And even if I bring both iron hands tactical marines with plasma guns and dreadnoughts, chances are, point for point, death guard still wins.

You claim that it's a sup-par army, but it only proves my point:

Death guard are too fething points efficient, undercosted, and, as such, OP. They're too durable for their points cost. There's no fething way that a 16 point model should be T5, have a 3+ armor and have a 5+ FNP roll. As well as being relentless!

Is there other cheese in the game? Yes. Is there worse cheese in the game? Yes.

Does that make death guard not cheese? Nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, I can see a 17 point model being T5, having 3+ armor and a 6+. But 16 points for T5 and a 5+ is just too much.

Relentless is completely irrelevant on a model with a bolter. You're a tactical-marine equivalent. You're not charging, anyway.

 Traditio wrote:
You claim that it's a sup-par army, but it only proves my point:

It does no such thing. The fact that you can construct a bad army that will lose a lot doesn't mean that the winning army is overpowered, it just means that you created a terrible army. This is the recurring problem with your balance arguments. You exclude all of the effective options available to you, create a weak army, and insist that anything better than your army must be overpowered cheese. The benchmark in 40k balance should not be "Traditio's 5th edition C:SM army", no matter how much you want to deny that all the releases since 5th edition have happened.

Iron Hands dreads get IWND if I recall

 Verviedi wrote:
Relentless is completely irrelevant on a model with a bolter. You're a tactical-marine equivalent. You're not charging, anyway.

False!

If you have a unit of deathguard within rapidfire distance, having relentless means that you can rapidfire, charge, force me to snapshoot in overwatch, and then tie me up in CC, denying me the rapidfire return fire.

And chances are, because you have a unit of T5, 3+ armor and 5+ FNP models against my tactical marines (or whatever it is that you just charged)...

...

...Yeah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 War Kitten wrote:
Iron Hands dreads get IWND if I recall

Dreads get IWND and infantry get 6+ FNP.

But even taking that into account, deathguard are just way better for their points.

Oh, the almighty bolter rapid fire round of shooting.
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

 Verviedi wrote:
Relentless is completely irrelevant on a model with a bolter. You're a tactical-marine equivalent. You're not charging, anyway.

It is relevant on Havocs who can actually move and shoot, but they get pretty bad weapons outside the Autocannon. They can also take special weapons but I think Chosen are better at doing that since they got more attacks if anything wants to try and tarpit them.

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh, the almighty bolter rapid fire round of shooting.
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

Your claim was that relentless on a CSM squad won't matter.

With all due respect, I disagree. Even on a CSM squad with bolters and a special weapon, relentless is a pretty nice boost.

Obviously, I'm annoyed about deathguard because it means that missile launchers and lascannons have been nerfed even harder.

But you play tau, right?

[Seriously, you play tau, dude? Well great. Death guard players don't have to choose between double tapping and charging your gunline. They can do both in the same turn.]

And Peregrine, you play leeman russes.

Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals? Because that's basically what deathguard CSM are. They're T5 necron immortals. Granted, the guns aren't as good. But in terms of raw durability? Yeah.

Even as a tau player, that's not going to be fun to play against.

And Peregrine, I don't like the odds for your leeman russes.

Also, pitting two exactly the same units against each other isnt a good way to compare balance.

what should be done is, okay, well, what does this model do for my army? Where does it fit in? For example, I bet if I put a unit of Reaver Jetbikes against Regular eldar bikes, the reavers win, that doesn't mean that the reavers are overpowered, or better than bikes. They fulfill different roles.

 Verviedi wrote:
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

... what? You can't play any kind of Marines without bolters being a significant part of your firepower, purely because all your dudes get them for free. Not only that, but for a free weapon they're pretty awesome.

Seriously. Play a couple of games behind some autoguns, lasguns, or Tzeentchy Warpflame, and you'll develop a whole new appreciation for the humble boltgun.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Also, pitting two exactly the same units against each other isnt a good way to compare balance.

what should be done is, okay, well, what does this model do for my army? Where does it fit in? For example, I bet if I put a unit of Reaver Jetbikes against Regular eldar bikes, the reavers win, that doesn't mean that the reavers are overpowered, or better than bikes. They fulfill different roles.

Even by that standard, the deathguard are still way better for their points. Deathguard CSM and iron hands tacticals have essentially the same army and tactical roles.

 BBAP wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

... what? You can't play any kind of Marines without bolters being a significant part of your firepower, purely because all your dudes get them for free. Not only that, but for a free weapon they're pretty awesome.

Seriously. Play a couple of games behind some autoguns, lasguns, or Tzeentchy Warpflame, and you'll develop a whole new appreciation for the humble boltgun.

Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

 Traditio wrote:
If you have a unit of deathguard within rapidfire distance, having relentless means that you can rapidfire, charge, force me to snapshoot in overwatch, and then tie me up in CC, denying me the rapidfire return fire.

So what? Let's look at the practical value of this. Assuming a full squad of 10 models (rather generously, since you should be able to put some damage on them before they get within charge range) being able to fire bolters instead of bolt pistols means 10 extra bolt shots. Against normal MEQs that's an average of 1.111 dead from those extra shots. If losing a single extra tactical marine is such a massive problem for you then it's a sign that you're already in a bad situation strategy-wise no matter what you're facing.

(Or, more likely, you're making a huge deal out of nothing.)

Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals? Because that's basically what deathguard CSM are. They're T5 necron immortals. Granted, the guns aren't as good. But in terms of raw durability? Yeah.

Even as a tau player, that's not going to be fun to play against.

As a tau player I'm ecstatic that mu buddies CSM got buffed and now have rules to match their fluff. I'm excited to play against Death Guard and have a challenging game without turning my lists way down.

My salamanders and Kids and eldar have the same feelings.

I don't understand your problem at all. Chaos Marine have been poor since Codex:Helldrake. Why can't you be happy all these armies went up a bit in power and the whole game became more balanced.

This one book made all the chaos legions very playable. One of the best releases in years and your cry about.... Nurgle marines being hard to kill? (as they should be!)

Their "dps" still sucks, I fully support the relentless buff. Maybe we'll even see missile launcher on marines again!

 Traditio wrote:
Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals?

Sure, and I'm not scared. T5 vs. T4 is meaningless, my LRBTs are wounding on a 2+ either way. So the only extra value added is 5+ FNP (assuming basic LRBTs and not any of my STR 10 weapons). So compared to normal MEQs that's what, +2 ppm (or +15% ppm) for 33% more durability? Doesn't seem all that impressive compared to things like buckets of MSU marines with free obsec transports, drop pod melta, etc.

 Traditio wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Oh, the almighty bolter rapid fire round of shooting.
If you're playing vanilla marines, and you're at the point where one unit of bolters is actually a significant part of your firepower, you made a mistake, and are going to lose.

Your claim was that relentless on a CSM squad won't matter.

With all due respect, I disagree. Even on a CSM squad with bolters and a special weapon, relentless is a pretty nice boost.

No one's saying that Relentless isn't good. We're saying it doesn't make Death Guard OP. Stop putting words in our mouths.

 Traditio wrote:
Obviously, I'm annoyed about deathguard because it means that missile launchers and lascannons have been nerfed even harder.

No, Lascannons and missile launchers have not been nerfed at all. They still wound DG Marines on 2's and ignore their armor saves. They are still decent weapons against them. Sure, those marines get their 5+ FnP, but that's hardly OP. Plus, if enough of those marines die in a turn, they have to take a morale check, and if they fail they don't automatically regroup and don't get to act normally if they do regroup. Much of their durability is balanced when you consider the loss of ATSKNF.

 Traditio wrote:
But you play tau, right?

Seriously, you play tau, dude? Well great. Death guard players don't have to choose between double tapping and charging your gunline. They can do both in the same turn.

Pfft, I play Tau as well, and my Stormsurge will still eat these guys for breakfast. A Strength 10 AP2 large blast will vaporize them without them getting their saves. Those Necron Immortals you mention will still get Reanimation Protocols, albeit at reduced effectiveness. Tau should not be too afraid of these guys. Of course, now you'll just play the "Tau are OP too" card, so I'm probably wasting my breath.

 Traditio wrote:
And Peregrine, you play leeman russes.

Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals? Because that's basically what deathguard CSM are. They're T5 necron immortals. Granted, the guns aren't as good. But in terms of raw durability? Yeah.

Most of the weapons that those Death Guard will be carrying will not even scratch the paint on a Leman Russ (at least not on the front armor). Even the Meltaguns (which don't benefit from Relentless at all) need 6's to glance unless they are in the 6" melta range. And if they are in that melta range, something has gone terribly wrong for the Guard player. It's not like Death Guard get drop pods or anything, barring Forge World of course. Also, how many Guard players use actual LRBT's instead of the far superior variants?

Seriously, Death Guard are not OP, they are just not as garbage as CSM used to be. Time to grow a pair and learn to live with them and all the other stuff you foolishly claim to be OP, or else just quit playing 40k.

ZergSmasher wrote:Time to grow a pair and learn to live with them and all the other stuff you foolishly claim to be OP, or else just quit playing 40k.

Plenty of people have made that decision since the advent of 6th edition.

Enjoy the power creep...

...and the dwindling player base.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Obviously, I'm annoyed about deathguard because it means that missile launchers and lascannons have been nerfed even harder.

No, Lascannons and missile launchers have not been nerfed at all. They still wound DG Marines on 2's and ignore their armor saves. They are still decent weapons against them. Sure, those marines get their 5+ FnP, but that's hardly OP. Plus, if enough of those marines die in a turn, they have to take a morale check, and if they fail they don't automatically regroup and don't get to act normally if they do regroup. Much of their durability is balanced when you consider the loss of ATSKNF.

Quick correction: the rull that gives them FnP also gives them Fearless, so no failed Morale checks.

Still doesn't make DG OP, though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

Define "good". In terms of damage per turn they're worse than say, Plasma Guns, but in comparison to most other things they're just fine. I'd kill to get Bolters on my Neophytes. Even Bolt Pistols. Anything but skanky autoguns or lasguns.

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

I know this has been addressed already, but this made me laugh and become angry at Traditio at the same time. This is total horse ****. There's a difference - a massive difference - between efficiency and being over-powered. Please - for your sake and everyone else's - review your definition of Over-Powers. The amount of times you've claimed your fixes will balance the game or units/formations/etc are OP when these claims are downright false is unreal.


As for the pretty good saves as well as the toughness characteristic of the Death Guard, I have one thing for you: High volume of fire. Even if you're - for example - hitting on 5's and wounding on 5's, do not underestimate the ability for a vast amount of shots to take down tough enemies. I think that's enough of a counter to rule them out as being OP, yes?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

You've clearly never had the misfortune to be fielding a T3 army. Bolters are a workhorse that get maligned for not being oversized guns in an oversized edition.

IllumiNini wrote:As for the pretty good saves as well as the toughness characteristic of the Death Guard, I have one thing for you: High volume of fire. Even if you're - for example - hitting on 5's and wounding on 5's, do not underestimate the ability for a vast amount of shots to take down tough enemies. I think that's enough of a counter to rule them out as being OP, yes?

I could say the same thing about necrons.

But look:

Necrons are plainly too durable.

Now consider that deathguard are more durable, and cheaper, than necron immortals.

 Traditio wrote:

IllumiNini wrote:As for the pretty good saves as well as the toughness characteristic of the Death Guard, I have one thing for you: High volume of fire. Even if you're - for example - hitting on 5's and wounding on 5's, do not underestimate the ability for a vast amount of shots to take down tough enemies. I think that's enough of a counter to rule them out as being OP, yes?

I could say the same thing about necrons.

But look:

Necrons are plainly too durable.

Now consider that deathguard are more durable, and cheaper, than necron immortals.

And the Immortals have better guns, Reanimation protocols (that can be improved) and other things. Your actual point here? Or are you just going to start comparing one specific part of a model to another model and start basing it upon that.

 Traditio wrote:
assorted nonsense

You said earlier that they should have paid an extra point for these benefits.

Matt points out that they cost a point more than you thought.

Your response is - still cheese.

Really?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
assorted nonsense

You said earlier that they should have paid an extra point for these benefits.

Matt points out that they cost a point more than you thought.

Your response is - still cheese.

Really?

I don't think that they should have paid a point more for THOSE benefits. I think that they should have paid a point more for less benefits.

17 ppm for VoTLW, T5, 3+ and 6+ FNP as well as game-long stealth at ranges greater than 18 inches, seems pretty reasonable to me.

 Traditio wrote:
If I take an iron hands CAD with a chaplain and iron hands tacticals with plasma guns, and my opponent takes an equivalent CAD with nothing but a dark apostle and death guard CSM squads with plasma guns, chances are, I lose the vast majority of the time.

No. That's not fair.

Tacticals are a mediocre unit in a codex full of great units.
Death guard are a great unit in a codex full of rubbish units.

If you choose to handicap yourself by taking only mediocre units then you will lose the majority of the time. Why is this a surprise? Stop handicapping yourself and actually compare what your codex is capable of to what the CSM codex is capable of.

Where does the stealth and a super long range come from? A relic?

 Traditio wrote:
17 ppm for VoTLW, T5, 3+ and 6+ FNP as well as game-long stealth at ranges greater than 18 inches, seems pretty reasonable to me.

1ppm undercosted for unit that cannot handle a whole range of threats in a codex that's mostly full of terrible units doesn't seem like a problem. You need to stop comparing units in a vacuum and compare codexes.

@gummyofallbears:
The meta-detachment.

Basically he's treating DG as getting their Meta Detachment bonus but not regular Marines or Necrons with their because reasons.

And here I thought we might have a sincere attempt at a thread for once... ah well.

Oh no, armies of power armored infantry? This is the OP thing?

Ah okay.

Why would their meta detachment bonus be built into their points cost? That's a ridiculous argument Traditio.

Also, stop comparing units in a vaccum. Honestly. If we are talking about meta detachment bonuses, the Iron Hand tactical squad would be riding around in a rhino or some other ridiculous bonus the IH decurion gets (I don't keep up with this stuff because I don't play these armies)

Oh noes, slightly more durable infantry with low damage and short range. How terrifying
Oh wait, not that. The opposite of terrifying.

Seriously, they aren't OP at all

IH get better FnP within range of a HQ and their vehicles get PotMS iirc for their meta detachment.

I might be missing something or getting the exact details wrong, but it's something like that.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@gummyofallbears:
The meta-detachment.

Basically he's treating DG as getting their Meta Detachment bonus but not regular Marines or Necrons with their because reasons.

And here I thought we might have a sincere attempt at a thread for once... ah well.

I'm not assuming that they get their detachment bonuses. Even without that, DG still get 5+ FNP, relentless and game-long stealth at ranges greater than 18 inches.

 BBAP wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

Define "good". In terms of damage per turn they're worse than say, Plasma Guns, but in comparison to most other things they're just fine. I'd kill to get Bolters on my Neophytes. Even Bolt Pistols. Anything but skanky autoguns or lasguns.

As someone experimenting with Genestealer Cults, I wouldn't even pay 1 point to upgrade to a Bolter. It is that pointless.

And really? Bolt Pistols? You're getting an extra attack regardless in melee and the extra point of strength is very marginal. And with someone in cover the AP5 is pointless (which happens a lot). Cults are a horde army doing what Orks should be doing but way better at it. Why would I EVER pay for a Bolter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

You've clearly never had the misfortune to be fielding a T3 army. Bolters are a workhorse that get maligned for not being oversized guns in an oversized edition.

I use Skitarii a lot. The extra strength doesn't make a difference and if you're using anything 5+ and above it was going to die anyway with the overall useless save. If you care that much buy some cover with Stronghold Assault.

 Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
@gummyofallbears:
The meta-detachment.

Basically he's treating DG as getting their Meta Detachment bonus but not regular Marines or Necrons with their because reasons.

And here I thought we might have a sincere attempt at a thread for once... ah well.

I'm not assuming that they get their detachment bonuses. Even without that, DG still get 5+ FNP, relentless and game-long stealth at ranges greater than 18 inches.

Dude the Stealth is from the Meta Detachment.

The basic DG bonuses are Fearless, FnP, Relentless & -1I to all models that have (free) VotLW, with the restriction of everything that can must be upgraded to be Nurgle and that you can't have anything Khorne/Tzeentch or Slaanesh or Non-Typhus Unique Characters.

Oh, and DG Psykers can roll all their powers on the Nurgle table... not that you'd probably want to most of the time.

Matt Kinsley wrote:Dude the Stealth is from the Meta Detachment.

My bad.

The basic DG bonuses are Fearless, FnP, Relentless & -1I to all models that have (free) VotLW, with the restriction of everything that can must be upgraded to be Nurgle and that you can't have anything Khorne/Tzeentch or Slaanesh or Non-Typhus Unique Characters.

Compare this to vanilla marines with chapter tactics. Fearless/VoTLW takes the place of ATSKNF. FNP is better than Iron Hands. The -1I is a nerf, but you know what? So what? Fearless is better than ATSKNF. Hands down. And with T5, good luck punching a DG.

And on top of all of that, they get relentless. Sure. You have to pay for MoN. But you were going to do that anyway. Because 3 ppm for +1 T is a bargain.

And they get a discount of a fething point. 13 ppm base vs. 14.

Tactical Marines get access to superior wargear and support options. There are more ways to balance units than just comparing one unit in a vacuum to another.

They also don't get IWND on their multi-wound models and dreads/vehicles (depending on how you interpret the draft SM FaQ).

They also don't get +1 FnP if they get it from another source. Not as big of a deal as the only way a DG marine can get an extra source of FnP is from Psychic Powers, but hey, still something.

And Warpsmiths don't get a +1 bonus to repairs.


You can't just say "They get more than IHs do!" but then ignore 3/4 of the bonuses IH get.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
They also don't get IWND on their multi-wound models and dreads/vehicles (depending on how you interpret the draft SM FaQ).

They also don't get +1 FnP if they get it from another source. Not as big of a deal as the only way a DG marine can get an extra source of FnP is from Psychic Powers, but hey, still something.

And Warpsmiths don't get a +1 bonus to repairs.


You can't just say "They get more than IHs do!" but then ignore 3/4 of the bonuses IH get.

Don't pretend anyone was using the Techmarine bonus.

It's still a bonus.

Should we ignore Relentless then? Because the +1 fnp from other soruces and +1 techmarine bonus are probably equally as useful as Relentless.

If he's going to count Relentless as a big bonus, I can count the Tech and +1 FNP as bonuses. Fair is fair.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It's still a bonus.

Should we ignore Relentless then? Because the +1 fnp from other soruces and +1 techmarine bonus are probably equally as useful as Relentless.

Bullgak. Relentless on CSM squads is huge, for two reasons:

1. Now it actually makes sense to put a heavy weapon on a 10 man CSM squad, assuming DG.

2. DG havocs can move and shoot at full BS now. That's huge.

But what heavy weapon are you feasibly going to put in them? The Autocannon?

An additional Melta or Plasma gun is much better than a lone Autocannon.


Smashfether getting 2+ FNP and his personal bike squad getting FnP(4+) are also huge in comparison, as can auto-repairing Techmarines in the right circumstances.

 Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It's still a bonus.

Should we ignore Relentless then? Because the +1 fnp from other soruces and +1 techmarine bonus are probably equally as useful as Relentless.

Bullgak. Relentless on CSM squads is huge, for two reasons:

1. Now it actually makes sense to put a heavy weapon on a 10 man CSM squad, assuming DG.

2. DG havocs can move and shoot at full BS now. That's huge.

Yay, they can move and shoot autocannons, lascannons and missile launchers. Big whoop.

Did you just look at one choice from the new legion list and decide "I'm going to call them OP" without comparing them to more than just Necron Immortals. Unless you actually meant Deathguard were "Officially Playable" instead of "Overpowered", because quite frankly I know of at least a dozen players that would still destroy them with ease.

 Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It's still a bonus.

Should we ignore Relentless then? Because the +1 fnp from other soruces and +1 techmarine bonus are probably equally as useful as Relentless.

Bullgak. Relentless on CSM squads is huge, for two reasons:

1. Now it actually makes sense to put a heavy weapon on a 10 man CSM squad, assuming DG.

2. DG havocs can move and shoot at full BS now. That's huge.

If they had access to Grav or drop pods then that might be a problem. Move and fire a missile launcher or autocannon? Who cares?

Being able to plasmagun then charge is probably the best use of relentless in this instance.

Can Death Guard take Grav Weaponry?
No?
Then Stop Complaining
Iron Hands get 6+ FNP and IWND to ALL CHARACTERS AND VEHICLES

For Example, My Tacticals get FNP 5+ Which Applies to Joined Characters

Am i complaining?
No i am Not

CSM needed this a LONG time ago, and its time they get what they deserved

oh noez one relentless plazmagun nerf the op cheeze

A marine player (or even necron...coff decurion coff coff) complaining about other army and trying a comparison??? It makes lose value to the whole argument.

And it being a no sense argument doesnt helps. Try compare csm to vainilla is nearly an insult hahaha. Say csm is better is a madness. Vainilla have so maaaaaaaaaaaaaaany stuff csm not that I will no stop mentioning them.


Also I didn't miss the fact you "nicely" compared two units only mentioning ONE "attribute" and conveniently set aside the global set. Is like say that a DM is way better and more op than a WK becuase the DM has more iniciative.......

Please...

what is next? orks being more op than vainilla because the meganobz have 2 wounds instead one like the termis?

DG FNP can still be took out by S10 and force weapons while Necron RP in Decurion with Cryptek post FAQ still get a 4+ against anything but D-weapons and stomps. Additionally, most Necronunits are way cheaper than CSM.
Yeah, the DG rules seem strong, but not better than free transports, grav, wraithknights, Tau and RP.
I really don't get these "ermagherd cheese!" threads.
If anything the Traitor Legions book brought CSM out of bottom tier. Now I really hope DE, Orks and Tyranids receive a similar treatment next year and we might approach something like balance in 40K. But I guess, people were saying the same at the beginning of 7th edition - and then GW released the Necroncodex .

Chaos long deserved a boost....

They seriously needed some help and death guard are meant to be tough as hell.

That's there thing... There durable.

 Traditio wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
It's still a bonus.

Should we ignore Relentless then? Because the +1 fnp from other soruces and +1 techmarine bonus are probably equally as useful as Relentless.

Bullgak. Relentless on CSM squads is huge, for two reasons:

1. Now it actually makes sense to put a heavy weapon on a 10 man CSM squad, assuming DG.

2. DG havocs can move and shoot at full BS now. That's huge.

"People can finally build usable 10 men CSM squads with heavies - that's an unparalleled crime"

- Traditio

Also is very easy, just tell to a marine "ok, I give you relentless and you give me pods and let me use gravitons on bikes and csm as well grav canons on obliterators....

Or to a necron "I give you relentless and fnp and you give me protocols (with option to improve of course) and gauss rule on bolter weapons"

Lets see how many say that is ok

Im totally gonna eat the fury of the moderators on this one. But this is the most slowed thread I have ever read on Dakka. Congrats, you win troll of the year 2016.

I've got to say I'm a bit concerned about the power level of CSM after these Legion updates. I'm not completely up to date with it and I'm not willing to call it OP until I've played it (even then I'm very sceptical it will be) but it looks very good and is what CSM players (and players of all factions) deserve. I'm only concerned because I play against CSM more often than not and I was already struggling a bit against the new Black Legion stuff and the recent addition of a Knight. Against the mystical 'meta' of all the craziest stuff in the game it's probably necessary to compete but against my little unloved green guys I'm worried I'll be blown out of the water unless I use the same couple of lists every game which I find quite dull.

That said I'm actually very excited for my CSM friend to try these Legion rules he's been waiting an age for and I hope it's both fluffy and powerful, I just want some love as well

 Traditio wrote:
But you play tau, right?

[Seriously, you play tau, dude? Well great. Death guard players don't have to choose between double tapping and charging your gunline. They can do both in the same turn.]

And Peregrine, you play leeman russes.

Have you given any thought about what it's going to look like to play against an army of cheaper and tougher Necron Immortals? Because that's basically what deathguard CSM are. They're T5 necron immortals. Granted, the guns aren't as good. But in terms of raw durability? Yeah.

Even as a tau player, that's not going to be fun to play against.

And Peregrine, I don't like the odds for your leeman russes.

And this would be a threat if I wasn't already dumping enough firepower to kill them all, and I actually used gunlines. Gunlines are too easily defeated for my liking. I prefer absolute board domination with Farsight rules.
And his Russes are AV14 front and AV12 side. Marines are not threats.

We all hope orks get some love and gw give us the different clans rules, since the ork codex was at same level than chaos, or even worst if is that possible hahaha


In any case the new chaos stuff is nice, but the core problems stil lare there in form of overcosted stuff, lack of wargear and the limitation on psickers of take one of the gods powers, so never will have the primaris of other disciplines (for example, nurgle discipline is kinda meh unless you use on a winged DM).

At least you can solve it adding a cyclopia cabal. They will no gain your legion rules (unless you are black legion), but since they are unmarked you can add them on any unit and choose the discipline you want xD

Franarok wrote:
We all hope orks get some love and gw give us the different clans rules, since the ork codex was at same level than chaos, or even worst if is that possible hahaha


In any case the new chaos stuff is nice, but the core problems stil lare there in form of overcosted stuff, lack of wargear and the limitation on psickers of take one of the gods powers, so never will have the primaris of other disciplines (for example, nurgle discipline is kinda meh unless you use on a winged DM).

At least you can solve it adding a cyclopia cabal. They will no gain your legion rules (unless you are black legion), but since they are unmarked you can add them on any unit and choose the discipline you want xD

Honestly I don't even think new Clan rules would help Orks, CSM has some pricing problems but Orks takes the cake X10 when it comes to horrifically priced units, characters, and wargear, CSM was bad but not Ork bad sadly.

Due to Formation Tax units and such, all the Pure Death Guard lists ive been writing up exceed 2000 pts. To field a Warband, Obliterator Cult, Heldrakes, Spawn, and Daemon Prince is 2500 points.

Im still very hesitant to play a game that big due to the ammount of Cheese other armies can put out at that point value.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I cannot wait for Traditio to reply 'well the earth is flat duh'

Of course it isn't. Every knows it's hollow. Duh.

Nothing you can't fix with a bunch of special rules on top of special rules. Just to not rewrite the price tag.

I want to say to the OP - you got it right, Death Guard are very hard to kill. Their troops might rightly be called OP.

But you missed the point of that. The army is OP in a single dimension. A real OP army is undercosted in many areas, and has some units that provide a unique concentration of value that makes them worth more than their points. In contrast, each of the CSM Legions are OP in a single dimension, and they are priced so that it's very, very hard to compensate in another area.

If anything, Traitor Legions makes CSMs more situational than before. Compare Death Guard with Emperor's Children and Black Legion (TBH, I would be more afraid of either of those legions.)

Noise Marines may not have relentless, but they have split fire, Shred, FNP 4 when taken as part of a Kakophoni and carry the Icon of Excess.

Expensive? Very. But a set of 6 squads of 10 marines comes in around 1400 points, leaving room for an allied CAD that can consist entirely of meat shields. Who they can walk up behind and shoot through without penalty. If they don't have to move, that's 144 S5 shots a turn that can be distributed across anything they want to shoot up.

They are the offense to Death Guard's defense. Anything short of a Knight that comes within 24 inches is going to have to make a lot of saving throws.

OTOH, Black Legion can bring a force that consists almost entirely of Terminators that arrive turn one. I am sure this does not sound very scary, but factor in Abaddon, enhanced terminators, daemon weapons, Cyclopia cabals, and the like. This is not a Deathwing Assault, this is a force that is going to strike with heavy flamers and psychic powers .

The Black Legion's excess is mobility. While they might be expensive and lack the defense of DG or offense of EC, they can absolutely wreck armies that depend on psychic buffs to be effective. Feels like they wrote the rules specifically to kill Eldar and Tau, where success depends on shooting up your opponent before they make it up the board.

But I would not want to run Emperor's Children against Eldar, or Black Legion against a bunch of Knights. Legions are probably not going to be attractive for WAAC players who are looking for a TAC list. They are going to be attractive to fluffy players who are okay with thinking about the game in a single dimension.

@ Tradito, You cant handle a few fearless FNP 5+ marines when you have 3++ rp necrons and free transport marines? its not like you are fighting a Wraith Knight that cost less than a Imperial Knight.

You must be one of those players who cried about the heldrake being op.

oh and as other people said, "Please Stop."

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Traditio has a stupid stance, but please don't defend the Bolter as though it were any good. It was never good to begin with.

You've clearly never had the misfortune to be fielding a T3 army. Bolters are a workhorse that get maligned for not being oversized guns in an oversized edition.

Bolters lack of efficacy against targets of value is the problem Most T3 targets are not targets of value, and I have a myriad of ways to deal with them, including punching them out.

Franarok wrote:
We all hope orks get some love and gw give us the different clans rules, since the ork codex was at same level than chaos, or even worst if is that possible hahaha

*Looking at Dakka in the future, after Orks get a new and somewhat improved codex, but still weaker than Eldar, Tau, or Space Marines*

Subject: New Ork Codex is Cheesy
By: Traditio

You all know that is where this will end up when Orks get a new 'dex that isn't garbage. Remember, you heard it here first!

 techsoldaten wrote:
I want to say to the OP - you got it right, Death Guard are very hard to kill. Their troops might rightly be called OP.

But you missed the point of that. The army is OP in a single dimension. A real OP army is undercosted in many areas, and has some units that provide a unique concentration of value that makes them worth more than their points. In contrast, each of the CSM Legions are OP in a single dimension, and they are priced so that it's very, very hard to compensate in another area.

If anything, Traitor Legions makes CSMs more situational than before. Compare Death Guard with Emperor's Children and Black Legion (TBH, I would be more afraid of either of those legions.)

Noise Marines may not have relentless, but they have split fire, Shred, FNP 4 when taken as part of a Kakophoni and carry the Icon of Excess.

Expensive? Very. But a set of 6 squads of 10 marines comes in around 1400 points, leaving room for an allied CAD that can consist entirely of meat shields. Who they can walk up behind and shoot through without penalty. If they don't have to move, that's 144 S5 shots a turn that can be distributed across anything they want to shoot up.

They are the offense to Death Guard's defense. Anything short of a Knight that comes within 24 inches is going to have to make a lot of saving throws.

OTOH, Black Legion can bring a force that consists almost entirely of Terminators that arrive turn one. I am sure this does not sound very scary, but factor in Abaddon, enhanced terminators, daemon weapons, Cyclopia cabals, and the like. This is not a Deathwing Assault, this is a force that is going to strike with heavy flamers and psychic powers .

The Black Legion's excess is mobility. While they might be expensive and lack the defense of DG or offense of EC, they can absolutely wreck armies that depend on psychic buffs to be effective. Feels like they wrote the rules specifically to kill Eldar and Tau, where success depends on shooting up your opponent before they make it up the board.

But I would not want to run Emperor's Children against Eldar, or Black Legion against a bunch of Knights. Legions are probably not going to be attractive for WAAC players who are looking for a TAC list. They are going to be attractive to fluffy players who are okay with thinking about the game in a single dimension.

Honestly if you're spending that many points on making noise marines you're doing something wrong. You don't need six fully tooled squads. Split fire exists mainly for the blastmasters so I think a more optimial structure would be two MSU squads with blastmaster and blasters. This guys would be backfield holders. Then two more with a bit more in the way of bodies and blasters but not reaching then (like 8) and without the icon. THEN I'd bring a pair of fully tooled squads which would be the line breaker.

All while having more points to spend on things that may help support these guys.

Martel732 wrote:
Bolters lack of efficacy against targets of value is the problem

You want all the advantages of an MEQ ATSKNF army in addition to free guns that can tackle Wraithknights on a 16pt model? No, you don't get to have that.

Most T3 targets are not targets of value

Wrong. All T3 units in a T3 army are targets of value - it's just that no one squad is any more valuable than any other in a lot of cases.

That's why bolters are good. You can drop wounds into such squads from halfway across the table, forcing saves at the very least. They're not the end-all-be-all, but for the price (i.e. free) they're pretty good.

and I have a myriad of ways to deal with them, including punching them out.

Punch out the Claw-Morphs. Sounds sensible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
You all know that is where this will end up when Orks get a new 'dex that isn't garbage. Remember, you heard it here first!

"Ghaz killed two five-man Tactical Marines and a Rhino in close combat after I ignored him for three turns, and it took nearly a quarter of my shooting phase to bring him down. He might as well be a Super-Heavy Walker, what a cheesebag GW pls nerf ok ty."

I read a Traditio thread when I need a good laugh of insanity. When everybody (literally everybody in this thread) tells you you're wrong...you should stop drinking the Koolaid you're making. The sugar to water to rat poison ratio is definitely off.

That's just it; there are few remaining advantages of being a marine. BA are the proof of this. Bolters are to avoided in a marine list.

Franarok wrote:
We all hope orks get some love and gw give us the different clans rules, since the ork codex was at same level than chaos, or even worst if is that possible hahaha


In any case the new chaos stuff is nice, but the core problems stil lare there in form of overcosted stuff, lack of wargear and the limitation on psickers of take one of the gods powers, so never will have the primaris of other disciplines (for example, nurgle discipline is kinda meh unless you use on a winged DM).

At least you can solve it adding a cyclopia cabal. They will no gain your legion rules (unless you are black legion), but since they are unmarked you can add them on any unit and choose the discipline you want xD

To my knowledge, in the case of marked psykers you can have two primaris powers. You get one for being marked, and one per the psyker rules. I could be wrong, but that is how I have been playing it (hopefully not cheating) for my last 6 games with no one batting a eye.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Due to Formation Tax units and such, all the Pure Death Guard lists ive been writing up exceed 2000 pts. To field a Warband, Obliterator Cult, Heldrakes, Spawn, and Daemon Prince is 2500 points.

Im still very hesitant to play a game that big due to the ammount of Cheese other armies can put out at that point value.

All the new formations will be that bloated. We wont be alone for long. This is GWs way of getting us to up game point limits. Not that it wil work mind you. Just that is the clear intention. Lets just hope the tau,eldar and SM eat the bloat as well before GW gives up and goes for a different tactic.

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
@ Tradito, You cant handle a few fearless FNP 5+ marines when you have 3++ rp necrons and free transport marines? its not like you are fighting a Wraith Knight that cost less than a Imperial Knight.

You must be one of those players who cried about the heldrake being op.

oh and as other people said, "Please Stop."

No Necron has 3+ Reanimation Protocols.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I read a Traditio thread when I need a good laugh of insanity. When everybody (literally everybody in this thread) tells you you're wrong...you should stop drinking the Koolaid you're making. The sugar to water to rat poison ratio is definitely off.

Traditio overreacts, but part of the observation can be valid. The game is out of control and they keep adding layer instead of fixing it, see CSM in general.

Also, many people that criticise did show a grasp on rules lesser than they think, as one can observe.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
@ Tradito, You cant handle a few fearless FNP 5+ marines when you have 3++ rp necrons and free transport marines? its not like you are fighting a Wraith Knight that cost less than a Imperial Knight.

You must be one of those players who cried about the heldrake being op.

oh and as other people said, "Please Stop."

No Necron has 3+ Reanimation Protocols.

I wish I could get 3+ RP with my crons. Would make them even more lame than they already are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I read a Traditio thread when I need a good laugh of insanity. When everybody (literally everybody in this thread) tells you you're wrong...you should stop drinking the Koolaid you're making. The sugar to water to rat poison ratio is definitely off.

Traditio overreacts, but part of the observation can be valid. The game is out of control and they keep adding layer instead of fixing it, see CSM in general.

Also, many people that criticise did show a grasp on rules lesser than they think, as one can observe.

I dont think he has a leg to stand on in any post I have read. Power creep is a problem in every single game I have ever played. It is not 40k specific. If you want to know why the player base has gotten smaller it has more to do with rising prices putting alot of gamers off. Until they lower prices or provide greater value for the asking price it will only get worse. Out of all the gamers I know outside of my SMALL 40k club, none of them play 40k. When I have asked why its the same answer every time. And guess what that answer is.

Table wrote:


I dont think he has a leg to stand on in any post I have read. Power creep is a problem in every single game I have ever played. It is not 40k specific. If you want to know why the player base has gotten smaller it has more to do with rising prices putting alot of gamers off. Until they lower prices or provide greater value for the asking price it will only get worse. Out of all the gamers I know outside of my SMALL 40k club, none of them play 40k. When I have asked why its the same answer every time. And guess what that answer is.

I speak about my personal experience, so do not take it as a general statement: the two things are interconnected. As a potential buyer, I can think about starting a new army, but I am intimidated by the prices, along with being attracted by the (general, with exceptions) quality of the minis. So I am on the fence... what happens next?

If the minis belong to a solid game system, my effort on them will not be wasted. I know that with the new codex or change of edition, the army will play the same and only the gimmicky bullcentaurcrap will be removed. The time and paint and conversion and money will be "a long term investment" and the buying will be greenlighted.

But if the rules are crappy/messy, I will be afraid that with a sudden change of edition/meta, my efforts will be pointless. I will be inhibited in my buying. I could build The Lost and The Damned, and see them disappear for the following 2 editions. So I refrain from buying the new plastic crack.

This is what GW got wrong with WHFB. They invested in new centerpiece models and big units ignoring the fact that if finishing 1 army is less intimidating, people will be encouraged into buying a second or a third. GW even tried something like this later, see Skitarii and Scions (the latter needed more love but I guess no studio "designer" plays them, so no stuff like 1 heavy weapon /relentless troop model, or stuff like that).

BTW, privateer failed hard in this, too, with the new edition change. They are now what they were fighting. "Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft...." etc etc.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Honestly I don't even think new Clan rules would help Orks, CSM has some pricing problems but Orks takes the cake X10 when it comes to horrifically priced units, characters, and wargear, CSM was bad but not Ork bad sadly.

YES !! Orks are finally the BEST at something. Even, if you know, it's that they are the best at having the worst army bulding options

Books like these give me hope that Orks will get something to improve their lot.

On Topic, Death Guard are looking very strong, and I can see GW selling heaping helping of them in the new year.

I saw the title of this thread and couldn't help but laugh, so finally CSM get something good that makes them comparable to the shenanigans that regular Space Marines get and someone complains about it? No way can I take this or any comments against CSM or the Death Guard seriously, it's about time chaos got something like this.

As someone who has not read the new rulebook, is it a specific formation that he's talking about or is it an army using death guard "chapter tactics"? Either way, it doesn't sound bad, as many others have said

I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

Sure Traditio. Let's compare them to Iron Hands.

Who have no restrictions on what they CAN take in order to get their 'Chapter Tactic.'
Who pay no points in order to get said 'Chapter Tactic.'
Who have a 'Chapter Tactic' that applies to their vehicles as well as their infantry.
Who can utilise a meta-detachment in order to net themselves 400-500 points of free transports whereas the DG detachment...gives us Stealth at 18" and rerolls of 1s.
Who still have access to Grav-spam.

Oh Traditio. You keep throwing the teddy out of the pram...one of these days we're going to stop putting it back in for you.

 mew28 wrote:
I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

So?

You can join Traditio in being wrong, I suppose.

Also, they don't get better FnP. It's the same FnP you would get if you put a Narthcium in a unit of loyalist biker marines (5+).

I play Blood Angels, viewed as one of the least powerful loyalist Marine codexes in print by many, and I don't even bat an eye at the new Chaos updates, including Death Guard. I look forward to playing against them in the future in fact.

This is long over due for Chaos players & I'm glad to see it happen.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 mew28 wrote:
I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

... so not Bikes, then. Don't get Grav Guns either AFAIK. I3 too.

Death Guard are tough. Death Guard always have been. That doesn't make them OP or anything close to it.

I would still rather have my kabalite warriors in venoms than Death Guard tacs

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

Also, they don't get better FnP. It's the same FnP you would get if you put a Narthcium in a unit of loyalist biker marines (5+).
-Red__Thirst-

Thats a command squad not SM bikes and cost 28 points a head then if you average in the cost of the Narthcium.

 mew28 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

Also, they don't get better FnP. It's the same FnP you would get if you put a Narthcium in a unit of loyalist biker marines (5+).
-Red__Thirst-

Thats a command squad not SM bikes and cost 28 points a head then if you average in the cost of the Narthcium.

Except CSM don't have access to Grav and so will always be inferior to Space Marine bikes.

 BBAP wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

... so not Bikes, then. Don't get Grav Guns either AFAIK. I3 too.

Death Guard are tough. Death Guard always have been. That doesn't make them OP or anything close to it.

Your right being tough on it's own is not worth much. However they have an respectable amount of guns in there squad to the points spent well being extremly hard to kill. It would be easy to put them in a rhino cart them up to an objective and just sit there eating spinefist all day. Also there is more then just grav guns to worry about. plasma or HB can kill most other squads that try to contest an objective.

Lol DG op when a basic csm is neither fearless nor stubborn......

CSM finally can compete and us csm players LOVE IT.

WE'RE BAAAAAAAAACK!

 sfshilo wrote:
Lol DG op when a basic csm is neither fearless nor stubborn......

CSM finally can compete and us csm players LOVE IT.

WE'RE BAAAAAAAAACK!

Well, not back. Just visiting until 8th.

55 posts in, and being the only person agreeing with Traditio? Anyone wanna bet Mew is either a second T-account, or a buddy trying to "give the slip" by having a maple syrup flag?

CSM have some things to help them be competitive against their loyalist counterparts. With only one kid and one friend at my store playing CSM, I welcome the chance for them to be challenging and get some good stuff. Deal with it or rage quit.

 mew28 wrote:

Your right being tough on it's own is not worth much. However they have an respectable amount of guns in there squad to the points spent well being extremly hard to kill. It would be easy to put them in a rhino cart them up to an objective and just sit there eating spinefist all day. Also there is more then just grav guns to worry about. plasma or HB can kill most other squads that try to contest an objective.

Ok Traditio Jr. Let's talk.

'Respectable amount of guns.' What, you mean at most 2 special weapons and BOLTERS in a minimum sized squad which, by the way, costs about the same as your 10 man SM squad does, in fact, probably shy a few points with upgrades. I think you perhaps have them confused with Chosen?

Sure. We could put them in a Rhino and waste 200 points or so sitting on an objective. I mean, it's not like we're Imperials who not only can purchase Rhinos seperately but can also hilariously get 10 of them for free in their meta-detachment who, oh, btw, all have Objective Secured. Luls.

Plasma still kills Plague Marines. You'll find stuff that wounds them on 2s and ignores their armour saves kill them very well. True, they're more resilient to Heavy Bolters...so I guess your 10 free Razorbacks might actually have to have some points sunk into them for upgrades as that's pretty much the only reason you mention HB - I mean, you can get 10 twin-linked ones for free, must be really, really upsetting to see all those points you have spent (all zero of them) not getting a free ride.

Tradito, just stop, please.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tradito, just stop, please.

He won't... not that we care

 Traditio wrote:
Is anybody keeping up with the Traitor Legions updates?

I'm not sure that I like these updates. Basically, it looks like they're giving out VoTLW for free along with legion specific "chapter tactics." So this means that they get the chapter tactics and the extra LD, but they still cost a point cheaper.

But ok, ok. Small beans.

Death Guard has me deeply concerned.

Basic CSM in this legion are going to be cheaper than necrons, are going to be more flexible than necrons and more durable than necrons.

Is anybody else concerned about this?

Re-Rollable Reanimation Protocols > FnP.

Seriously. Massively.

Death Guard did get a much needed boost (as did Emperor's Children and World Eaters), and can possibly be considered lower-mid-tier, but they're nowhere near as tough as Necrons. They also MUST take MoN, which makes them a point higher.

 sfshilo wrote:
Lol DG op when a basic csm is neither fearless nor stubborn......

CSM finally can not being totally pathetic and us csm players LOVE IT because we lowered our standards THAT MUCH!

WE'RE BARELY VIABLE NOW BUT PEOPLE ARE BU****RT ABOUT THAAAT!

FTFY.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tradito, just stop, please.

Na he is here to entertain us. Most of us seem to like interacting in those threads seeing the amount of replies his topics get.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Tradito, just stop, please.

Na he is here to entertain us. Most of us seem to like interacting in those threads seeing the amount of replies his topics get.

It's a new form of energy being created. Have you not seen the new South Park?

Relentless only looks like a problem because it shows one of the core problems of Tactical Marines: the inability to specialize. Nobody is going to take the Heavy weapon on Chaos Marines, as they're going to be on the move and want to grab objectives, which means you'll be wanting Plasma or Melta.

Meanwhile, Tactical Marines only work as 5 man squads because of them being forced to take a Heavy Weapon instead of a second special weapon, which was one of many reasons Grey Hunters were superior. Yeah we know Grav Cannons are available, but that's Salvo. The cut from 24 to 12 is pretty darn drastic.

I played death guard vs tau the other day. The tau player was trying to deepstrike most of his army so he only had some small units hiding behind walls first turn. My daemon prince only got witchfires, flew over the wall blasted a bunch of units. He failed every leadership test ran off the board and then I won first turn.

DEATHGUARD MAD OP TURN 1 TABLING OF OP TAU RIPTIDE SPAM ARMY!! BOYCOTT NOW!!!!!!!

 coblen wrote:
I played death guard vs tau the other day. The tau player was trying to deepstrike most of his army so he only had some small units hiding behind walls first turn. My daemon prince only got witchfires, flew over the wall blasted a bunch of units. He failed every leadership test ran off the board and then I won first turn.

DEATHGUARD MAD OP TURN 1 TABLING OF OP TAU RIPTIDE SPAM ARMY!! BOYCOTT NOW!!!!!!!

Oh man we need to ban them! Kidding aside your opponent can't even be mad, that's the risk you run with a mostly deepstrike list

Death guard are OP?

*Nervously glances over at world eaters who have the possibility of a turn one 30" minimum charge*

RIIIIIIIIIIiight.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Death guard are OP?

*Nervously glances over at world eaters who have the possibility of a turn one 30" minimum charge*

RIIIIIIIIIIiight.

That's what's needed vs tau sadly.

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Death guard are OP?

*Nervously glances over at world eaters who have the possibility of a turn one 30" minimum charge*

RIIIIIIIIIIiight.

That's what's needed vs tau sadly.

Oh absolutely and im totally all for it lol.

I just laugh at he idea that outta all of the legions, death guard are the OP ones lol. Hell the alpha legion warlord switcharoo is hilarious IMO

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Death guard are OP?

*Nervously glances over at world eaters who have the possibility of a turn one 30" minimum charge*

RIIIIIIIIIIiight.

That's what's needed vs tau sadly.

Oh absolutely and im totally all for it lol.

I just laugh at he idea that outta all of the legions, death guard are the OP ones lol. Hell the alpha legion warlord switcharoo is hilarious IMO

Personally I'm giggling at the fact that if you get the right Combat Drugs roll Emperor's Children Marines are actually cheaper and better than Death Guard Marines (15pts for T5, I5, and 4+ FNP instead of 16pts for T5, I3, and 5+ FNP).

Tradio,

I think it best for all concerned that you just give up 40k. You are right about one thing, though, your army will never win.

Funny, that.

His army will never win because he is convinced that options that were free in 5e should have a 50/50 chance of winning any game.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Death guard are OP?

*Nervously glances over at world eaters who have the possibility of a turn one 30" minimum charge*

RIIIIIIIIIIiight.

That's what's needed vs tau sadly.

Oh absolutely and im totally all for it lol.

I just laugh at he idea that outta all of the legions, death guard are the OP ones lol. Hell the alpha legion warlord switcharoo is hilarious IMO

Personally I'm giggling at the fact that if you get the right Combat Drugs roll Emperor's Children Marines are actually cheaper and better than Death Guard Marines (15pts for T5, I5, and 4+ FNP instead of 16pts for T5, I3, and 5+ FNP).

Reliability trumps potential.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Death guard are OP?

*Nervously glances over at world eaters who have the possibility of a turn one 30" minimum charge*

RIIIIIIIIIIiight.

That's what's needed vs tau sadly.

Oh absolutely and im totally all for it lol.

I just laugh at he idea that outta all of the legions, death guard are the OP ones lol. Hell the alpha legion warlord switcharoo is hilarious IMO

Personally I'm giggling at the fact that if you get the right Combat Drugs roll Emperor's Children Marines are actually cheaper and better than Death Guard Marines (15pts for T5, I5, and 4+ FNP instead of 16pts for T5, I3, and 5+ FNP).

Does that factor in the PPM distribution of the Icon of Excess's cost? You need the Icon for the 4+ FNP, right?

Yes, and I think that, should you take a 10 man blob it would be 17pts... if you take a 20 man blob, it's the same. All while being faster and having a better FNP

 mew28 wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
I gotta say I agree with Traditio this makes chaos marines into 16 point SM bikes with a better FnP. But they walk and don't have twin linked bolt guns.

... so not Bikes, then. Don't get Grav Guns either AFAIK. I3 too.

Death Guard are tough. Death Guard always have been. That doesn't make them OP or anything close to it.

Your right being tough on it's own is not worth much. However they have an respectable amount of guns in there squad to the points spent well being extremly hard to kill. It would be easy to put them in a rhino cart them up to an objective and just sit there eating spinefist all day. Also there is more then just grav guns to worry about. plasma or HB can kill most other squads that try to contest an objective.

I play Wraith themed army with my eldar.

trust me my T6 3+ armor and 5+ FNP (due spiritseer power) Wraith guard with D weapons will be able to hold that objective for 2 turns as best, 3+ if i'm really, really lucky and they are somehow ignored.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Death guard are OP?

*Nervously glances over at world eaters who have the possibility of a turn one 30" minimum charge*

RIIIIIIIIIIiight.

That's what's needed vs tau sadly.

Oh absolutely and im totally all for it lol.

I just laugh at he idea that outta all of the legions, death guard are the OP ones lol. Hell the alpha legion warlord switcharoo is hilarious IMO

Personally I'm giggling at the fact that if you get the right Combat Drugs roll Emperor's Children Marines are actually cheaper and better than Death Guard Marines (15pts for T5, I5, and 4+ FNP instead of 16pts for T5, I3, and 5+ FNP).

It's unreliable and honestly they will whiff it at some point letting you decimate them like any other MEC.

Really five pages? I figured a marine player complaining about CSM would have been laughed off the board in two pages, is that what happened and I just missed three pages of victory laps? *edit* oh it's the same OP as the magnus the red dumpster fire, that explains it...

 BBAP wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

This is a very blatant troll thread, as per usual with this poster. People need to stop feeding this guy.

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

This is a very blatant troll thread, as per usual with this poster. People need to stop feeding this guy.

People need to stop saying we are feeding him. We are feasting together, meaning everyone is having fun!

If you look at his past topics, it's actually par for the course. Either he's a super dedicated troll, or he's serious.

 Wolfblade wrote:
If you look at his past topics, it's actually par for the course. Either he's a super dedicated troll, or he's serious.

If he's serious he should probably stop the sudden reversals of opinion.

 Grimgold wrote:
Really five pages? I figured a marine player complaining about CSM would have been laughed off the board in two pages, is that what happened and I just missed three pages of victory laps? *edit* oh it's the same OP as the magnus the red dumpster fire, that explains it...

It's basically 5 pages of people telling him it's not OP and to stop complaining

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Really five pages? I figured a marine player complaining about CSM would have been laughed off the board in two pages, is that what happened and I just missed three pages of victory laps? *edit* oh it's the same OP as the magnus the red dumpster fire, that explains it...

It's basically 5 pages of people telling him it's not OP and to stop complaining

So five pages of victory laps, actually.

In the sea of 40k I don't find these guys op. A sea that's 6 pages long.

 Rotary wrote:
In the sea of 40k I don't find these guys op. A sea that's 6 pages long.

That's because DG are not OP at all. They're actually playable in the current meta now, but hardly cheesy. I myself look forward to facing them, with any of my armies.