I wanted to get some opinions on this and see if this is a common occurrence.
So my LGS has one night dedicated to 40k, and it is part of a monthly league where everyone buys in $5/week and the winner and runner up win store credit. The $5 buyin goes to store credit.
As a very casual gamer, I have no interest in playing competitivly and would rather just play games to relieve stress and have a fun night. I know I would never win this league because we have some players who run extremely hard lists. You can't blame them considering there is money on the line.
My issue comes in because I have no desire to compete, nor do I want to pay money just to play the game. I have been playing at this store for over a year without buying in and it was never an issue. I played only if the league players all had matches and there was always plenty of table space for me to play without putting a league player out. This past week I was confronted by the store manager who had never worked during 40k nights before but she made it a ppint to ensure every player present had paid their $5. I told her I come to play but do not participate in the league. She responded by saying I could only play 40k if I payed money regardless.
This really puts me off because while it's absolutely within the store's rights to do anything they want with their floorspace, requiring players to pay money to play 40k seems completely ridiculous. I like to support my LGS and throughout the past year and a half I've probably spent ~$500 on models/paints, etc. I have a few members who offered to pay for me, but I still think the policy is wrong and I don't want someone to pay money just so I can play.
Has anyone encountered a similar situation? I'm on the verge of just playing at a different store but I've made some good friends here and I enjoy playing with them.
Fortunately I'm deploying next month so it won't be an issue soon, but I wanted to enjoy 40k while I could before I am removed from the hobby for 6 months and this really throws a wrench in my enjoyment of 40k.
Well, we pay 5 Euro (for 40k, 30k, AoS, WMH, Bolt action, Infinity, X-Wing) per gaming day. Gaming days are Saturday and Wednesday. For box games like BB, the owner charges 1 Euro per game per day.
Its fine for the gaming group.
That is definitely complete and utter garbage. Why would you buy into a league that you're not playing in? I really don't know what you can do about it other than try and convince the manager or hope that this was only a one time thing, as you said they're never there on 40k night. They definitely know you're not in the league and can't win anything out of it?
Hmm. I know one of my LGS has a league running (organized by players) that charges 10 bucks per month, but you can still play outside of the league for free, or even in the league if you dont care about the prizes. Charging to just play in general is more than a bit greedy.
I will try engaging with the owner over his policy and see if we can come to an agreement.
From my perspective, it just looks like the owner sees the play area as another revenue stream. I'm also not sure if the board game players or MtG players are required to pay to play.
If nothing comes of it, I'll play at a different store until I leave and when I come back maybe things will be different or I can just play like I was before, just staying under the radar.
Answer is simple. Pay the $5 but don't buy from there anymore. You are still supporting the store by making purchase there. I would tell this manager, "you are perfectly correct, here is the $5 for me to play, but now I will take my $500 and it will go to other shops now."
It's not right. I would speak to the owner of the store. If he let you play without charging you and now this manager does, tell the owner you spent over $500 at his store and support him. If he will be charging, then you don't need to make big purchase from him anymore.
A league with a paid-prize is a-okay, and lots of places do this, but it's for the idea that you can have people commit better to a league when they have some skin to lose. I also have seen stores charge for games when those games would put the store past its normal operating hours (in which case, this money goes to keeping a staff member on hand, which makes sense). However, I have never seen a store say that you MUST participate in the league in order to play there.
From the sounds of it, this manager didn't or doesn't realize the distinction. I would bring this up with the store's owner. I bet they will say differently. If they don't, tell your story to the other members of the league and to us on the internetz, as you are also entirely within your right to complain about a store's policy and entice other people to not go there.
EDIT: One thing to note; during league night, I would imagine that league players would have preference on tables. If you're taking up a table, and all other tables are full, and there's a paying league player waiting in the wings for your game to play, it's only fair to let the paying league player have a game. But if there's lots of space available, then you should be able to play a non-league game just fine. This is something that's also pretty common when I've seen places get packed for Magic The Gathering tournaments. They tell people that there's no room to play unless you're in the tournament, but that's often because there really is NO ROOM to play.
One shop here has a membership thing that allows you to use the tables, terrain, etc and gives a slight discount. Basically this is because there is limited space so the fee is to make sure people support the store since it does the same for them by building and painting terrain and having extras of blasts, dice, and such for use.
$5 a week membership charge? TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS!!! \sarcasm
The fact that the $5 goes towards store credit means that the owner wants to ensure that people who play at his store don't just buy everything online at cheaper prices and only use his shop to game at.
Look at it from his perspective. It is a store. It has to pay rent and for its employees. He isn't saying that you cannot game there, but he is saying that you should help with the upkeep.
If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!
Look at it another way; how much do you spend on snacks\drinks? easily $5 a night. $5 a week? that goes towards store credit anyway? buy a drink and enjoy yourself.
If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!
If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!
That escalated rather quickly.
sorry, but I equate such things with table fees, and I have zero problems throwing some money towards the shopkeeper for time on his\her tables. Even more so when it goes towards store credit as well. It isn't wasted money.
If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!
That escalated rather quickly.
sorry, but I equate such things with table fees, and I have zero problems throwing some money towards the shopkeeper for time on his\her tables. Even more so when it goes towards store credit as well. It isn't wasted money.
I get that. I was just reading along your post nodding my head and going "mhm, mhm," then suddenly "bottom feeding scum sucker" and I was like "Oh damn there's some anger."
But yeah I've heard of places charging to use their tables, and I'm glad I don't have that at my lgs, but I can see reasons behind it.
My LGS unfortunately also charges money for games. Still, €5,- a week is just too much. Also, it 'forces' people to come back each week, or their prize chance is gone.
However, what I find worse is implicitly encouraging cheese and scummy behaviour by offering prize money.
Eh...it's their shop. They'll either sink or swim based on how people respond to the process. As a consumer you don't have any kind of "right" to play in a retail space. It's good business for more stores because people buy stuff out of convenience if they're playing there (even if it's just sodas/snickers).
All you can do is offer some feedback so the store knows where you stand. A store should be earning your business...if they're not - find somewhere else to play and purchase stuff elsewhere.
I had my FLGS closed exactly because of this self-entitled attitude. now we don't have anything except the odd gathering, or if one of the players had its own table at home.
Keeping a FLGS costs money. alot of it. you got to pay rent, electricity, employee wages, insurance, etc.
And in the age of internet shopping being often cheaper, they are NOT having an easy time keeping up.
Putting up tables means more space, more bills and more money they have to recover SOMEHOW. especially from people who just come to play and never buy-as they cost money to the shop, rather than simply not earning any.
Paying 5$ a week is nothing, especially if it goes towards store credit.
And considering you said you spent around 500$ in the past year, so store credit is defiantly finding use for you, unless you don't actually shop at said FLGS, and if that's the case you are not their customer but a bother, and they have no need for you to be there and hog the space from their actual costumers.
Davor wrote: Answer is simple. Pay the $5 but don't buy from there anymore. You are still supporting the store by making purchase there. I would tell this manager, "you are perfectly correct, here is the $5 for me to play, but now I will take my $500 and it will go to other shops now."
It's not right. I would speak to the owner of the store. If he let you play without charging you and now this manager does, tell the owner you spent over $500 at his store and support him. If he will be charging, then you don't need to make big purchase from him anymore.
I agree with this. Talk to the owner of the story, calmly and politely and point out the argument above.
I always buy something where I play (nearly every time as well). If the store I go play at started charging to play there I would potentially consider somewhere else. I would have to weigh the enjoyment I get at the store vs playing at my place.
Personally I think this is perfectly reasonable. You're not actually losing any money, you just have to spend it at the store. It's basically a 'customers get to use the tables' policy.
Honestly.. even with profits from Mark-up. Is the retailer really making much money with this $5 charge if it's going to store credit?
Assuming 10 people take part in this tournament every week, that's only $2400.00 a year. Only problem is, that's $2,400.00 in store credit, not $2,400 in profits.
Now I've never owned a business or a game store, but I'd estimate more than half that $2,400.00 will end up going to non-overhead costs associated with the products bought with that store credit. So in the end that game store has maybe $1,200.00 going towards overhead costs.
I understand margins can be thin, and every dollar counts with a business, but this is not what will drag that FLGS down. What will drag it down, is taking away reasons for games to walk into their store vs just buying what they want online, or making their own game boards, or going to a FLGS that does have free tables.
Like some players, I'm lucky to have a FLGS that doesn't charge to use their gaming tables or terrain. If my FLGS charged per table, I can guarantee you I wouldn't buy anything from them, not out of spite necessarily, but because there's nothing to get me in the door. I've spent about $500.00 in products in the last year too from my FLGS.
That's the whole point of offering free use of the tables. It gets people in the door. That is half the battle of making them spend money on a hobby like 40k.
I know I personally wouldn't pay (even to myself in store credit) to play at a store's tables. I buy things at the lgs, but it's mostly convenience buys. The lgs needs to earn my money, and having the tables gets me in the door, and gets me to buy a few things rather than save money buying at home (since I'm already there and I can take it home that day/night). If they started charging for casual table use, I'd get my own table set up with the money I would spend just visiting there and never have a reason to go there again.
They need me more than I need them. Obviously that isn't true for everyone, but it is for me.
EDIT: Also keep in mind part of the reason I wouldn't pay into store credit to play at my lgs is that the place loses orders once in a while, takes forever to get in the ones they don't (2 months last time), and are thinning down their 40k stock. So my experience with them is pretty "meh" and I've been sitting on some store credit for a while from mtg trade-ins that I have nothing to spend on with them except for paints as I need them.
I just think it's poor business practice. If I were running a game store I would want games to be going on all the time because they can attract attention and encourage sales. I totally get a league type of set up for only one night a week or wahtever, but having to pay for tabletime any other day seems dumb. I could see it being reasonable only if they're short on space and use the tables for competing customers or events.
A pool hall will charge for table time, but that's a completely different business model.
The lgs in my old town did something similar to that. I think it was like $5 per day, or if you pay $20 in merchandise the day is free. $50 of merchandise gets you a week or month or something, or you could just buy an annual membership for like $100. All in all, i thought it was pretty fair, since the money went toward new terrain, tables, and operating costs.
My FLGS charges £1 for a game (or to paint). 2+ games will cost you £2. Zero complaints from the customers and the funds have been used to buy snazzy neoprene mats and other stuff.
I can definitely see both sides of the argument. While I sympathize with OP, I'll back the store.
You may buy stuff when you go in, but I'd need to take my shoes off to count the number of people that I see on a weekly basis who never buy anything. No drinks, no snacks, and definitely no models.
Hell, we even have a dude who will pretty much make whatever he wants into 40k models. Everything from Hot Wheels motorcycles for Bikes (they have marines on them, but they're definitely bits from online), to $5 model airplanes he gets from Dollar General. He's a nice enough dude, but the actual 40k stuff he has is all from eBay Dark Vengeance.
It sucks, but it's a harsh reality a lot of stores face. We only have 1 store in our area that's been around for more than 10 years.
A pool hall will charge for table time, but that's a completely different business model.
Is it really, though? Their primary revenue is food and drink. A LGS' would be models and such. Once you factor those out, now you're left with Pool Halls getting revenue for using their stuff. Table, balls, rack, etc. LGS usually allow you to use tables, terrain, and periphreals for free.
I'd say it makes sense for a LGS to charge a small fee.
We have a board game place here that rents out space to play.
But I don't think any of the LGS's do something like that. Sure we have paid in leagues and what not, but no pay-to-play situations.
Honestly, if you have other places to play, I'd go there. If they're willing to let you slide until the end of the league and then pay from then on with the new league, maybe give it a go? But when there's more than one option, this just seems like shooting yourself in the foot.
Ultimately, a Hobbyshop charging $5 for a tournament, and making the prize store credit, is totally understandable. Charging you to play on tournament night is fine to me, they're devoting their floorspace to the tourney.
That said, hobby shops do a lot of damage to their own reputation by gouging people and generally doing shady stuff. I bought a TAC squad at a local shop. I figured i'd support them a little because i'd heard good things. When i got home, it became apparent that the box had been opened and resealed, with the bases swapped out for smaller ones.
I also have found that it's impossible to enter a hobby shop without the proprietor complaining about GW, or WH40k. It's a turn off. I don't care if you have problems with GW, I'm not here to listen to that.
So if it's a perfect store, with reasonable prices, who don't pull BS with boxes, doesn't show favoritism to some patrons, encourages a quality gaming experience, and are just generally all around pleasant, and then they charge $5 for a tournament? No big deal. But when they're doing all kinds of BS on top of it, that's an issue.
It's just one of the many ways LGS are trying to create a working business model in an era where they absolutely cannot compete in areas like price or selection. Table fees to store credit are just an attempt to put a little bit of requirement on the players, but it doesn't come across as a value to the customer and gets a lot of push back.
Ultimately, the problem is simply that minis games, even with their purchases made entirely in store, don't generate enough money to pay for rent and the like. $500 over 18 months? Gaming once a week lets say for 3 hours, you're talking ~$2 contribution to the store which means it takes about 3-4 players just to pay someone minimum wage to run the shop during that time, let alone make a profit.
Ultimately the entire issue is simply that there isn't enough profit in games; particularly miniatures to keep a store solvent. The a la carte purchase system creates huge stocking issues on top of a flawed distribution system that makes the market naturally converge down to a few mass volume point of sales.
LGS are just in a tough place. Many of them have become restaurants where everyone comes in and orders a glass of water. The industry needs them, but can't support them. Unfortunately, until a working business model is found an easily adapted (cafe's are awesome but liquor/food laws can be a huge challenge that varies by city/state) we're going to see a lot of attempts to get by that come across as desperate... largely because they are.
LunarSol wrote: It's just one of the many ways LGS are trying to create a working business model in an era where they absolutely cannot compete in areas like price or selection. Table fees to store credit are just an attempt to put a little bit of requirement on the players, but it doesn't come across as a value to the customer and gets a lot of push back.
Ultimately, the problem is simply that minis games, even with their purchases made entirely in store, don't generate enough money to pay for rent and the like. $500 over 18 months? Gaming once a week lets say for 3 hours, you're talking ~$2 contribution to the store which means it takes about 3-4 players just to pay someone minimum wage to run the shop during that time, let alone make a profit.
Ultimately the entire issue is simply that there isn't enough profit in games; particularly miniatures to keep a store solvent. The a la carte purchase system creates huge stocking issues on top of a flawed distribution system that makes the market naturally converge down to a few mass volume point of sales.
LGS are just in a tough place. Many of them have become restaurants where everyone comes in and orders a glass of water. The industry needs them, but can't support them. Unfortunately, until a working business model is found an easily adapted (cafe's are awesome but liquor/food laws can be a huge challenge that varies by city/state) we're going to see a lot of attempts to get by that come across as desperate... largely because they are.
Just to put this into some perspective, there is actually a LGS in North Wales that charges £2.50 just to go upstairs. They have the shop downstairs were you can buy things from, and then the tables you can use upstairs for £2.50 every single time, not just on tournament night. One time I just wanted to go upstairs to look at a friends fully painted army for the first time and they said I couldn't without paying, so I stopped going there to play or buy models and just used it for my paints and brushes and the like. Buy my models online now, but it ended up making me take a long hiatus from the hobby because I was pretty miffed to be excluded from playing with my friends because I didn't have the money to buy supplies, models and now just to go upstairs.
Now I can afford it and have returned, but I made it a point to inform the manager that his sales tactic had caused me to leave and that I didn't think much of him or the store for it. It's fair to say we REALLY don't like each other very much. It was and is the only store in the area, so I felt it was somewhat extortionate. Especially considering that a lot of us were just kids, and could barely afford the hobby as it was. I think I was around 12, and I used to have around £100 from my birthday money to make last the whole year, and used to almost exclusively spend it in their store. I used to play every Friday and Saturday which would have been £5 a week and £20 a month just to play the game[i] and leaving me no money to actually buy models or anything else.
I recognize that at the end of the day it is their floor space to do with as they please, but I personally felt and still do feel that more consideration should have been put into action about what it does to the hobby and the people who simply can't afford it. At the end of the day, he drove 4 of my friends out with me when we were all kids and would have been customers for decades to come, damaging the hobby.
Sorry to rant, and to the OP this isn't supposed to take away from your experience. It's just to say I sympathize and fully understand where you're coming from. If I was you, I'd just go to the Store Manager and express how you feel it isn't fair and that you already support the store with your purchases. You shouldn't have to essentially give store credit to someone else with no hope or intention of winning it back. The charge is for league players who have a chance of winning it back when you are not in the league and so cannot win it back.
Cassor the Damned wrote: Just to put this into some perspective, there is actually a LGS in North Wales that charges £2.50 just to go upstairs. They have the shop downstairs were you can buy things from, and then the tables you can use upstairs for £2.50 every single time, not just on tournament night. One time I just wanted to go upstairs to look at a friends fully painted army for the first time and they said I couldn't without paying, so I stopped going there to play or buy models and just used it for my paints and brushes and the like. Buy my models online now, but it ended up making me take a long hiatus from the hobby because I was pretty miffed to be excluded from playing with my friends because I didn't have the money to buy supplies, models and now just to go upstairs.
No offense, but this is a pretty silly reason to stop playing entirely. Could you guys not find anywhere else to play? Someone's garage? Kitchen table? Basement?
LunarSol wrote: It's just one of the many ways LGS are trying to create a working business model in an era where they absolutely cannot compete in areas like price or selection. Table fees to store credit are just an attempt to put a little bit of requirement on the players, but it doesn't come across as a value to the customer and gets a lot of push back.
Ultimately, the problem is simply that minis games, even with their purchases made entirely in store, don't generate enough money to pay for rent and the like. $500 over 18 months? Gaming once a week lets say for 3 hours, you're talking ~$2 contribution to the store which means it takes about 3-4 players just to pay someone minimum wage to run the shop during that time, let alone make a profit.
Ultimately the entire issue is simply that there isn't enough profit in games; particularly miniatures to keep a store solvent. The a la carte purchase system creates huge stocking issues on top of a flawed distribution system that makes the market naturally converge down to a few mass volume point of sales.
LGS are just in a tough place. Many of them have become restaurants where everyone comes in and orders a glass of water. The industry needs them, but can't support them. Unfortunately, until a working business model is found an easily adapted (cafe's are awesome but liquor/food laws can be a huge challenge that varies by city/state) we're going to see a lot of attempts to get by that come across as desperate... largely because they are.
The industry does need places to play. This is absolutely true.
Hosting tournaments is the way to do it. You get people in, playing for store credit, and socializing. It's a reason to go. This weekend i'm going to buy stuff. If there was a tournament at a local store on Saturday, I'd go there, because it'd be neat to see or maybe even play.
Also, if you're hosting tournaments, you could actually do some things to balance out the game. Publish your own "store errata," such as Wraithknights really cost X, battle-demi is limited to 4 free transports, do 1000-1500 point games so they're over a little faster, etc. Have the store credit prizes distributed based on other criteria besides "first place," for instance, "most innovative list," or "best narrative player." It's subjective but it would be cool.
Also, they need to cut prices, and stop the gouging. Charging for the bathroom? I've seen it. That's dumb. Move a higher volume of stuff. Sell snacks, but not at an insane price. Frankly, if they could sell BEER, that would be amazing.
The majority of Aussie games clubs aren't in stores, but in other venues (quite often church/council halls but university spaces and school spaces are also not uncommon).
We tend to charge a fee per meeting to cover the costs of venue hire for the purpose. For us "pay to play" has been a thing for the last 30 years. You can usually check them out for free and many also do offer a free pass for the first playing visit to the club (so you can check it out for free, and then play the next time for free).
That said, stores don't do it all for free. Locally at least, it's Magic that keeps them in business, and those release days when it's full of card players, tends to make them a lot of money. Can't say the same for Miniatures gaming.
carldooley wrote:$5 a week membership charge? TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS!!! \sarcasm
The fact that the $5 goes towards store credit means that the owner wants to ensure that people who play at his store don't just buy everything online at cheaper prices and only use his shop to game at.
Look at it from his perspective. It is a store. It has to pay rent and for its employees. He isn't saying that you cannot game there, but he is saying that you should help with the upkeep.
If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!
Look at it another way; how much do you spend on snacks\drinks? easily $5 a night. $5 a week? that goes towards store credit anyway? buy a drink and enjoy yourself.
Look at it this way. I already buy a lot from that store. Why should I have to even buy more? You don't appreciate I buy from you? Well fine, now you have just given me permission to buy else where and not feel about it, since I am supporting your store with paying $5 now instead of $500.
Oh yes, a store is not a charity. Yes, a store needs to make money and has to pay for hydro, and workers and insurance, rent and what ever else. Thing is, if I am not spending that $500 or more now how are you paying for all that by just charging $5? It's bad enough I feel I am nickled and dimed to death from GW, I don't need that from my FLGS. So please explain if I show up once a week and pay $5, how is that $260 going to pay the bills easier instead of the $500+ that you could have had?
Yes when people don't buy at your store, charge them to play. When people buy at your store, let them play for free. Hell give them "tokens" or "passes" to them so they play for free.
Again how is a store going to survive on $260 a year instead of $500+ a year?
carldooley wrote:$5 a week membership charge? TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS!!! \sarcasm
The fact that the $5 goes towards store credit means that the owner wants to ensure that people who play at his store don't just buy everything online at cheaper prices and only use his shop to game at.
Look at it from his perspective. It is a store. It has to pay rent and for its employees. He isn't saying that you cannot game there, but he is saying that you should help with the upkeep.
If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!
Look at it another way; how much do you spend on snacks\drinks? easily $5 a night. $5 a week? that goes towards store credit anyway? buy a drink and enjoy yourself.
Look at it this way. I already buy a lot from that store. Why should I have to even buy more? You don't appreciate I buy from you? Well fine, now you have just given me permission to buy else where and not feel about it, since I am supporting your store with paying $5 now instead of $500.
Oh yes, a store is not a charity. Yes, a store needs to make money and has to pay for hydro, and workers and insurance, rent and what ever else. Thing is, if I am not spending that $500 or more now how are you paying for all that by just charging $5? It's bad enough I feel I am nickled and dimed to death from GW, I don't need that from my FLGS. So please explain if I show up once a week and pay $5, how is that $260 going to pay the bills easier instead of the $500+ that you could have had?
Yes when people don't buy at your store, charge them to play. When people buy at your store, let them play for free. Hell give them "tokens" or "passes" to them so they play for free.
Again how is a store going to survive on $260 a year instead of $500+ a year?
on that you're absolutely within your rights, I'm, a BIG beliver in "pay where you play" supporting my local store, but if my local store charged for me to play there, I'd be a lot less supportive.
Firstly, thanks for all the replies. I just got home from work so I've read through them all. With the exception of one post (which did escalate rather quickly) all of these have been quite informative. It seems that a lot of EU players have to pay to play, but those prices aren't anywhere near what I'm expected to pay. I am a very firm believer in supporting local businesses in anything I do, however at the same time I am very conscience of my money, being a finance major. I have a number of expensive hobbies, believe it or not 40k being one of the cheaper ones.
I buy models with a different frequency than most of my friends. When I want something, I just buy a lot of it rather than one model at a time. When I decided I wanted to run a tank-heavy IG list, I bought 7 LRBT's in the span of a month. I recently bought $500 in Daemon models all at once, and once I finish those I'm going to buy a few hundred dollars in Catachan models to play GSC. I like tackling large projects, one at a time, and moving on to the next one.
So this $5 almost "layaway" system really doesn't do me any good. If the LGS had a system in place to track my purchases so that every $50 tank I bought counted me for 2.5 months of play then sure, I wouldn't mind. But I spend enough money there as it is, and I don't want to have to constantly bring $5 in every week. As someone said previously, is the ~240 in revenue from forcing me to play worth the loss of $500? Shouldn't I as the customer be able to decide how I purchase my models? What if I just don't want to purchase any models for the time being and I accrue a large amount in store credit but have to move due to being in the military? I'd just have to dump that all on models that I don't even want. Sounds like a bad situation to me.
Honestly the only thing holding me back from never visiting that store again is the community that plays there. We have a good number of casual players that can have fun with weird lists or just laugh whether winning or losing. Fortunately for me there are a few other gaming stores around, including one that opened up recently that is only a few minute drive from my house. Not only does this place have a larger play area than storefront, the owner is a 40k fan, and he has been very accommodating to me when I want to play 40k on a non-40k day or even keep the store open a little late just so we can finish the game. He even offers a military discount as well as discounts on anything ordered through the store.
Here's my opinion. You said it yourself, you've been playing there for a year and never buy anything. If they are struggling to pay the bills, then it's partly your fault. Look in the mirror for someone to blame. I tell people all the time that the models are cheap on ebay, but nobody there will play a game with you.
You and other players like you are a drain, not a help on game stores. If you leave and never come back, the owner has not lost anything.
Support your local game stores with you DOLLARS. The floor space, tables, terrain, heat, light etc cost money. If it was easy to do you'd have crowds of people at your house or your store. Pay up or shut up.
This really puts me off because while it's absolutely within the store's rights to do anything they want with their floorspace, requiring players to pay money to play 40k seems completely ridiculous. I like to support my LGS and throughout the past year and a half I've probably spent ~$500 on models/paints, etc. I have a few members who offered to pay for me, but I still think the policy is wrong and I don't want someone to pay money just so I can play.
If your not playing in the tournament then no you shouldn't pay, if on tournament nights there isn't room then yes priority should be given to paying players. It's probably best on those nights to play at another LGS until the tournament ends.
we pay £1 per whole day of play, and considering the owner has spent £900 at least on terrain for us, we are happy, Athena games Norwich, best place in Norfolk to play in
Just to get to be bottom of this 'I do my bit by buying models' bit.
$500 of GW models will typically make the store $200 possibly less if they offer a discount.
$250 in gaming fees is pure profit.
It really is a struggle running a games store and what else can you go and do for $2.50-$5.00 per evening?
My FLGS charges $5 per table use and personally, I'm happy to pay it if it helps keep the store afloat. That may just be because this store is basically heaven and the only other store in my area is a shoebox sized Games Workshop populated by passive aggressive teenagers.
I can understand why some of you Europeans/Americans might get a little indignant over it but wargaming is somewhat less prevalent in my country.
Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way. There's no way in hell I'd have been able to keep playing if I had to pay €5,-/week out of a €30,-/month allowance while juggling other hobbies at the side. Hell, I think €1,- might've been too much for me, given that I stopped buying snacks on gaming nights as they cost me too much.
Nowadays, I'm able to afford that just fine, but pricing kids out of the hobby sounds both unfair and a foolish business idea.
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way. There's no way in hell I'd have been able to keep playing if I had to pay €5,-/week out of a €30,-/month allowance while juggling other hobbies at the side. Hell, I think €1,- might've been too much for me, given that I stopped buying snacks on gaming nights as they cost me too much.
Nowadays, I'm able to afford that just fine, but pricing kids out of the hobby sounds both unfair and a foolish business idea.
Totally agree, I avoid obe of my locals because that's £5 a night.
At £15 a month that ain't happening.
I can understand paying into leagues, as you get stuff back (well if you try...) and paying players get available tables, but you shouldn't pay to play on an empty table.
As far as the original post is concerned, I am in the 'Bull's Excrements' camp as well.
If a store has the basic house rule to charge for use of tables and scenery and what not, that is a house rule that should be visible to all, and you can choose to play there, or not.
When a store charges for a special league or tournament, and you are not part of that (by choice), they shouldn't charge a fee. Period. If they have a lack of tables, and you are there for just casual play, I can understand they prioritize and ask you to clear the table for purposes of league games or the tournament.
I actually feel bad that I never buy much from my FLGS. It is a really nice store with a really nice staff. Probably one of the best I have been to. I game there 2-3 times a month and barely ever buy anything.
I don't have time to paint, so I buy everything painted and used (off eBay or Bartertown). So there is never a reason to buy anything from my LGS except paints (for retouching), books, card packs, accessories, etc. I try to find stuff to buy, but there is usually nothing.
I wouldn't mind paying like 5 bucks per gaming day (not per game, but to use the table for however long I'm there). I have no problem supporting my local store. But I'll be damned if I am going to pay $60 for 3 Exalted Sorcerers. AND have to paint them. Sorry. I am a gamer, not a hobbyist.
FortheEmperor! wrote: Here's my opinion. You said it yourself, you've been playing there for a year and never buy anything.
Uh. Where'd you see that, exactly?
If they are struggling to pay the bills, then it's partly your fault.
No - give the customer an incentive to be there. A business has to earn loyalty, not sell it.
Look in the mirror for someone to blame.
Good advice for a store owner who drives customers away.
I tell people all the time that the models are cheap on ebay, but nobody there will play a game with you.
But they will play at the lgs, and if you get other people to go to the lgs, it's more likely the lgs will make more money.
You and other players like you are a drain, not a help on game stores. If you leave and never come back, the owner has not lost anything.
Wrong. You want people in your store, for as much possibility of maximum revenue as you can get. If my lgs owner started a policy like this, I know myself and at least 3 others wouldn't go there, because guess what? We don't want to pay to play every time we show up. We don't need to buy something every time we show up. We buy stuff, so don't get on your logical fallacy high horse again and tell me I'm a drain because I don't want to buy something every single time I show up. In the past year, I've spent enough at this place to at least pay rent for a month. God forbid I want to save a little once in a while.
As noted previously, though, I don't buy models there anymore (about 3 months) and I don't plan on starting back up unless their order system improves or they start stocking up again.
Support your local game stores with you DOLLARS. The floor space, tables, terrain, heat, light etc cost money. If it was easy to do you'd have crowds of people at your house or your store. Pay up or shut up.
Alex Kolodotschko wrote: Just to get to be bottom of this 'I do my bit by buying models' bit.
$500 of GW models will typically make the store $200 possibly less if they offer a discount.
$250 in gaming fees is pure profit.
It really is a struggle running a games store and what else can you go and do for $2.50-$5.00 per evening?
best solution if you're going to charge players for table space. Give a voucher for a free day of gaming for every so much spent on product. Ocal store used this model and very few people ever had to actually pay for table space.
Our LGS just ask a monthly cotisation fee of 5$, thats for the tables and terrains etc, plus the use of commodities like glue/paint etc in case of an emergency.
But its not mandatory, its up to you if you want to pay it or not, and the service is no less because of it.
its really just to pay the eventual repairs if a table/terrain gets damaged during a game, so that people doesn't have to pay the whole thing, its like an insurance if you like.
$5/week for several hours of entertainment, use of table space and terrain, and the chance to earn that money back and then some in store credit every month? Sign me up!
$5 < a cup of coffee at Starbucks, less then a burger at whatever Fast Food place you pick, less then a couple gallons of gas to drive somewhere, way, way cheaper then any video game (unless you buy the garbage games on Steam LOL), cheaper then a book...
Yeah, $5/week is pretty much nothing in a hobby where the standard 10 model Space Marine box costs $40. Heck, you can barely buy a bottle of paint for $5, and certainly not a good paint brush.
You can stand on a and shout out it's the principle of the thing, but that $5 is paying for so much more. It's helping keeping the doors of the FLGS open. It pays for terrain to go on the tables. The chance to win more money appeals to a lot of people (that stupid gambler gene), so the chances of having an opponent to play against go up. You get to talk and hang out with fellow 40K players. Nothing in life is free. And the FLGS's that allow you to play for free don't typically stay open for long (unless the owner just sucks up the loss and covers it in other ways).
The $5/week is a win/win situation. Both for you and the store. If you have problems coming up with $5/week, you are in the wrong hobby.
It would seem that we Americans are spoiled in that we're not expected to pay for table/scenery/peripherals use. Lots of other countries are spending closer to $10 USD than the $5 OP was originally talking about. I frequent my LGS twice a week, and I will usually spend at least $10 on something. Paint pods, rattlecan, brushes, snacks, etc. The difference though is the store isn't making $10. And I am also in the minority when it comes to regulars at the store. A lot of them "have their army already". Which is fine, however where does that leave the LGS?
The are providing you a service-giving you tables to play on and a spot to meet up. expecting any kind of service for free is absurd.
So unless you want them to sell overpriced snacks and drinks, they need to charge for the tables.
And if they DO charge for the snacks and drinks, how quickly do you think the owner would figure he'd make more profit if said gaming tables became coffee tables and just converted into a cafe? very little I promise you.
The FLGS owes you nothing, it doesn't need to "earn your loyalty". if you are not buying there, you are not a customer and they are better off without you.
The FLGS owes you nothing, it doesn't need to "earn your loyalty".
Why go there if they don't have your loyalty? I think what you're actually saying is that simply existing should earn them a customer's loyalty. Which is an okay stance to take, it's just not mine.
if you are not buying there, you are not a customer and they are better off without you.
Some places believe there to be value in potential customers/gamers seeing things being played in their store, it opens up a whole new avenue of marketing. If a potential customer comes into the store, sees some people on tables playing 40k and having a great time, they're more likely to start up 40k or start playing at that store. Which in turn can create more revenue for the store.
Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.
Paying for tables is fine. In fact I prefer it, I go long periods where I don't buy any models, so if I'm paying for the table I don't need to feel compelled to buy models I don't want to keep the owner/employees happy.
I'm all for gaming shops separating their miniature sales from their "table use" instead of ramping up the prices of miniatures to compensate.
It more just sounds like the store has an arse about way of charging for tables. If they're going to charge for tables they should just charge for tables instead of making you pay a buy in for a league you have no interest in joining.
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way. There's no way in hell I'd have been able to keep playing if I had to pay €5,-/week out of a €30,-/month allowance while juggling other hobbies at the side. Hell, I think €1,- might've been too much for me, given that I stopped buying snacks on gaming nights as they cost me too much.
Nowadays, I'm able to afford that just fine, but pricing kids out of the hobby sounds both unfair and a foolish business idea.
I think GW has done a fine job of pricing kids out of the hobby to begin with. You need rich parents or a part time job to afford the hobby. In either case, you'd have money for the table fee. Personally, I couldn't afford to field full armies until I was gainfully employed (early 20's), and that was when minis came 5 to a blister for $10, rather than a box of 5 metal minis for $55 (CAN) or a blister of one plastic mini for $30.
Alternatively, the 5 GBP fee may be there to keep the teen crowd out, for the very reasons you state - they have no money.
Jacksmiles wrote: Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.
After doing a brief scroll through the posts, there are about 7 more people who've posted in favor of paying a small fee than against paying a fee. So no, in fact almost everyone here is not weirded out or opposes paying to use tables.
I wish I could check this more often to respond but thanks everyone for for keeping things mostly civil and unfortunately I'm in my mobile so I can't quote things as I should.
As a casual player, I have no interest in having to run the type of lists that would allow me to win the pool each month. But honestly I'm okay with that. The reason I don't participate in the league isn't because I know I have very little chance of winning, it's because I play 40k to relax and relieve the stress of 50-60hr workweeks. I don't want to basically gamble when I play 40k.
In this store, the only day available for 40k is the league day each week. They only offer 40k nights one day a week, and do not permit 40k to be played on other days aside from rare circumstances. The league resets each month and starts again. In the past when I played "below the radar" so to speak, I would have to give up certain opponents or tables for league play. I'm totally okay with that. Also someone did mention selling overpriced snacks/drinks as well, which this store does. $1 for a can of soda anyone?
It strikes me as odd that so many people have such a negative view of people who would play at a store and not buy something. There seems to be a lot of "buy something or gtfo" mentality. I doubt there are many people who start a gaming store without having a passion for it (and before people start citing anecdotes yes there is an exception to every rule). Providing a space to play is more of a marketing play than anything else. Keeping customers in your store increases the likelihood of purchases. At any rate, keeping statements like that to a minimum would be appreciated. There are ways to indicate your opinion without calling people scum suckers or referring that they are a detriment to the community and store.
I am definitely in the camp that stores need to earn a customer's loyalty. By doing things like providing safe spaces for play, providing discounts, etc. Hell even just engaging customers in normal and friendly conversation can go a long way. LGS isn't the only business that is difficult to run, yet I don't see them as being exempt from providing good customer service.
I do find it interesting the number of EU players that have to pay vs US. If my store didn't try to make the league mandatory I wouldn't have any issues with it.
I have spoken to some of the other members of the local community and it seems there is a large consensus that the owner is more interested in profits tha anything else and is not particularly interested in 40k. For the time being I have decided to play at another, closer LGS that is more appreciative of their customers and is more interested in developing relationships with the clientele rather than seeing them as walking wallets.
Jacksmiles wrote: Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.
After doing a brief scroll through the posts, there are about 7 more people who've posted in favor of paying a small fee than against paying a fee. So no, in fact almost everyone here is not weirded out or opposes paying to use tables.
Er... are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? If agreeing, thanks I guess. If disagreeing, I think you missed the "(if anything)" smack dab in the middle there.
Edit: That would explicitly mean that there are people who are neither weirded out by nor opposed to paying to use tables, but if they're weirded out or opposed to anything, it's paying to use tables as opposed to spending money at the store in general. Just to clear that up (and that's why I don't understand the point of your post).
Jacksmiles wrote: Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.
After doing a brief scroll through the posts, there are about 7 more people who've posted in favor of paying a small fee than against paying a fee. So no, in fact almost everyone here is not weirded out or opposes paying to use tables.
Er... are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? If agreeing, thanks I guess. If disagreeing, I think you missed the "(if anything)" smack dab in the middle there.
Edit: That would explicitly mean that there are people who are neither weirded out by nor opposed to paying to use tables, but if they're weirded out or opposed to anything, it's paying to use tables as opposed to spending money at the store in general. Just to clear that up (and that's why I don't understand the point of your post).
You're saying the majority of poster are against paying for table use, correct?
Jacksmiles wrote: Plus, this point kind of misses a lot of the conversation where almost everyone in here says they're still buying things from their store and what (if anything) they're weirded out by or opposed to is paying to use the tables.
After doing a brief scroll through the posts, there are about 7 more people who've posted in favor of paying a small fee than against paying a fee. So no, in fact almost everyone here is not weirded out or opposes paying to use tables.
Er... are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? If agreeing, thanks I guess. If disagreeing, I think you missed the "(if anything)" smack dab in the middle there.
Edit: That would explicitly mean that there are people who are neither weirded out by nor opposed to paying to use tables, but if they're weirded out or opposed to anything, it's paying to use tables as opposed to spending money at the store in general. Just to clear that up (and that's why I don't understand the point of your post).
You're saying the majority of poster are against paying for table use, correct?
Nope. I'm saying if a given person in this thread has said they're against paying for table use, they've also generally said they still spend money at the store regardless. I'm saying that very few people (if any - I don't remember seeing one but I'm not going to reread the thread every time to check) have said something to the effect of "I don't spend any money at the store at all" AND "I would refuse to pay for table use." At least one of those statements has been the opposite for almost everyone in here, so saying things like the poster I originally quoted in the post that you quoted is totally out of whack with reality and is an emotional response to something that isn't happening in this thread.
I'd be a bit more sympathetic to the LGS if they were using, say, half of your fee for the league and half to put on other stuff, but if it's all going to the league coupon it seems a tad unfair. Most of the non-GWLGS I've been to have charged a pound or two for club nights, and a wee bit more for events - but they always have **something** other than just 40k space. The last place I played at (5 or so years ago) wanted £1 on the door, plus a £2 fee if you wanted to play in the league, but in addition to 40k tables they had a hobby table with paints and inks and stuff, plus a couple of videogame consoles that children could be parked in front of. Also the league prize was cash, not store credit.
The only GWLGS I ever played at was in Liverpool 10 or so years ago - their game nights were free.
Jacksmiles wrote: Nope. I'm saying if a given person in this thread has said they're against paying for table use, they've also generally said they still spend money at the store regardless. I'm saying that very few people (if any - I don't remember seeing one but I'm not going to reread the thread every time to check) have said something to the effect of "I don't spend any money at the store at all" AND "I would refuse to pay for table use." At least one of those statements has been the opposite for almost everyone in here, so saying things like the poster I originally quoted in the post that you quoted is totally out of whack with reality and is an emotional response to something that isn't happening in this thread.
Thanks for clarifying. So yes, the majority said they would pay a small fee. But there were about 13 people who flat out said "No way" to paying for table use.
XCaligulaX wrote: I have spoken to some of the other members of the local community and it seems there is a large consensus that the owner is more interested in profits tha anything else and is not particularly interested in 40k. For the time being I have decided to play at another, closer LGS that is more appreciative of their customers and is more interested in developing relationships with the clientele rather than seeing them as walking wallets.
It's probably worth keeping in mind that most games stores (especially ones that focus on wargames) probably aren't raking in huge amounts of money, rather they're probably just struggling to stay open.
Far more gaming stores open and fail than succeed. One of my local stores was doing quite well for several years but then went under because of rent hike when it came time for them to renegotiate their lease. Running a business can be pretty cut throat.
The LGS that is currently near me doesn't offer discounts AND charges to use tables. They've given up trying to compete with online stores and simply create an awesome place to play and paint with friendly staff, a huge gaming area and nice terrain, it seems to be working for them at the moment but I guess we'll see how it goes long term. Most gamers around here are mid 20's to mid 30's and aren't necessarily rich, but have enough hobby money to not care about paying a few bucks for a day's worth of gaming on a table that is far nicer than what they could put together at home.
Another LGS a bit further away doesn't charge to use tables, but they don't even have a 40k night anymore, it's mostly become RPG's, card games, board games and skirmish type games. I think they still have a Warmahordes night and that's about it.
It mostly seems your LGS just kind of lost the plot on how to implement a system where you charge for tables.
Hi, my name is Carl.
I have seen this sort of thing from both sides. I was once a teenager with a tabletop army that would look for places to play games, and walk out dejectedly when asked to pay table fees. That evolved to playing tournaments. After driving an hour to a game night and being the only person to show up to a couple, my habit evolved to going to tournaments instead. A day where a nominal fee is paid for the guarantee of a couple games against a couple different opponents was a much more palatable plan than wasting a night driving to a gaming night where no one else bothered to go? It only took a couple to wither that option in my mind.
Then, I had a buddy open a hobby shop. Initially it was a place designed to sell comic books, as there wasn't such in the place where we lived, Cobleskill (a college town). After a bit he got into tabletop games from boredom as much as from anything else. Eventually, he got into miniatures. He called his place the 'Empire Ray Gun' (look it up on Facebook). I got the chance to see the OP's point from the other perspective. For every person who spent money in the store, several others used it for a gaming space without supporting it. While I felt that it was reasonable to support the place that I gamed at, not everyone agreed, and I play in his basement now.
I was one of those people who was generally willing to pay another's way for table fees, but when it goes from appreciated to expected, I stopped doing it too.
Jacksmiles wrote: Nope. I'm saying if a given person in this thread has said they're against paying for table use, they've also generally said they still spend money at the store regardless. I'm saying that very few people (if any - I don't remember seeing one but I'm not going to reread the thread every time to check) have said something to the effect of "I don't spend any money at the store at all" AND "I would refuse to pay for table use." At least one of those statements has been the opposite for almost everyone in here, so saying things like the poster I originally quoted in the post that you quoted is totally out of whack with reality and is an emotional response to something that isn't happening in this thread.
Thanks for clarifying. So yes, the majority said they would pay a small fee. But there were about 13 people who flat out said "No way" to paying for table use.
But of that second group, they are also saying they still spend their money at the store. I'm sure you know that, but I want to keep it clear to others who might jump in and throw their "SUPPORT YOUR STORE *incoherent screeches*" comments as if people are refusing to do so by saying they don't want to pay table fees.
It strikes me as odd that so many people have such a negative view of people who would play at a store and not buy something. There seems to be a lot of "buy something or gtfo" mentality. I doubt there are many people who start a gaming store without having a passion for it (and before people start citing anecdotes yes there is an exception to every rule). Providing a space to play is more of a marketing play than anything else. Keeping customers in your store increases the likelihood of purchases. At any rate, keeping statements like that to a minimum would be appreciated. There are ways to indicate your opinion without calling people scum suckers or referring that they are a detriment to the community and store.
It's been my experience that stores don't start this way. Most have the best of intentions until the reality of business ownership kicks in. Rent and utilities are non-trivial costs and few stores even break even on that, which is why you'll find many store owners have full time "real" jobs to actually pay for things like a home and food. Of course, this ends up requiring staff, which adds to the cost, which puts more pressure on everything.
Ultimately, it all comes down to economy of scale, and minis games don't support that very well I'm sad to say. A new item comes out for a game and you expect one player to buy it, but you should probably have another copy on the shelf to keep up your selection, right? Well, when you have to put the money up front (generally around 50% MSRP) 2 copies of something in which only 1 sells is breaking even. Most products out there demand 3 sales per outlet to start being profitable and minis games just don't get that many sales outside of very large communities.
So, back to the store owner, who had the best of intentions when he started, is now looking at recurring costs without the revenue to support them and starts really looking at where the money is going and where its not coming back. Magic is almost universally where the money is coming from, with drafts in particular selling that Magic 3 copies per play session per player after all. Things like Board Games and Comics do alright in the grand scheme of things, but minis? Sheesh. You're stocking items often for 1 person in the community who might not even buy it, but realistically probably spends under $100 a quarter unless they faction hop? Then you start seeing those items that aren't selling show up anyway and you have to ask, why am I going bankrupt for these people? Often times the answer is because you're a fan of the game yourself, but when it isn't your game.... well, its a lot easier to see that you're not really operating in a symbiotic relationship.
LunarSol wrote: So, back to the store owner, who had the best of intentions when he started, is now looking at recurring costs without the revenue to support them and starts really looking at where the money is going and where its not coming back. Magic is almost universally where the money is coming from, with drafts in particular selling that Magic 3 copies per play session per player after all. Things like Board Games and Comics do alright in the grand scheme of things, but minis? Sheesh. You're stocking items often for 1 person in the community who might not even buy it, but realistically probably spends under $100 a quarter unless they faction hop? Then you start seeing those items that aren't selling show up anyway and you have to ask, why am I going bankrupt for these people? Often times the answer is because you're a fan of the game yourself, but when it isn't your game.... well, its a lot easier to see that you're not really operating in a symbiotic relationship.
That's why I'm more than happy for stores just to disconnect their miniature sales from their tables and instead charge for table use (even if it's just in the form of buying store credit which you can then use to buy models/paints). Accept that it's 2 different services, not everyone who buys models is going to care about your tables, not everyone who wants to use your tables wants to buy your models.
I just don't see how game stores stay in business.
Online sales (and used sales) should wreck them.
Gaming models are horribly overpriced. To the point of absurdity.
If this hobby was actually priced in a way that made sense, and the stores could sell models at the best prices, then it seems it would be easy street...
I love the hobby, but the entire thing is such a mess. One stupid transport like a Rhino cost as much as a video game. It's a wonder this hobby stays alive at all.
I've heard that gaming stores stay in business primarily thanks to tcg's like Magic the Gathering - doing events and selling singles. It's actually apparently lucrative enough to allow them to have minimal models sales and not have to worry about it.
I love the hobby, but the entire thing is such a mess. One stupid transport like a Rhino cost as much as a video game. It's a wonder this hobby stays alive at all.
The amazing thing is that video games have held that price point for so long. I can only guess they were really profitable 10-15 years ago, and the margin is getting slimmer and slimmer - leading to the current stagnation of AAA titles being 'sports' or 'military multiplayer' or 'proven nostalgia titles'.
I love the hobby, but the entire thing is such a mess. One stupid transport like a Rhino cost as much as a video game. It's a wonder this hobby stays alive at all.
The amazing thing is that video games have held that price point for so long. I can only guess they were really profitable 10-15 years ago, and the margin is getting slimmer and slimmer - leading to the current stagnation of AAA titles being 'sports' or 'military multiplayer' or 'proven nostalgia titles'.
Video games can afford to stay the same price because the industry has been growing like crazy. Games cost way more to make now than they used to, but they sell tons more. The stagnation doesn't have much to do with the RRP, it has to do with the huge development costs. When a big AAA game flops, it flops big time potentially losing 10's of millions of dollars, so publishers want "safe" titles that have a good chance of making money without investing too much more money.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Whitebeard wrote: I just don't see how game stores stay in business.
Online sales (and used sales) should wreck them.
Gaming models are horribly overpriced. To the point of absurdity.
If this hobby was actually priced in a way that made sense, and the stores could sell models at the best prices, then it seems it would be easy street...
I love the hobby, but the entire thing is such a mess. One stupid transport like a Rhino cost as much as a video game. It's a wonder this hobby stays alive at all.
I think wargames make money in two ways, firstly a large number of new players who never actually get all that far before quitting and secondly the whales for whom money isn't a big problem and they buy far more than they could ever paint.
The rest of the customer base in the middle are your non-whale regulars who only buy a few sets each year and don't actually make you much money.
But a store would really struggle to survive off wargames alone, which is why most don't even try. Rather wargames are a small part of the bigger picture. I was chatting to one hobby store owner (not wargames, just general hobbies) and we were talking about the money he gets in through RC cars, RC planes, plastic models, diecast, scalextric, random knick knacks, and he said no one of those things is enough to keep his doors open, if he dropped any of them he'd be struggling to turn a profit, it's investing in the broad base of products that keeps him in business.
I'm lucky I live within driving distance of Fantasy Flight's Game Center so I have free tables whenever I want
Nobody outside GW sells JUST warhammer, and even GW stores don't charge for games! Most gaming stores stay afloat from magic the gathering (booster drafts, tournaments, prereleases) from my experience. Its not a customers job to keep the store from going under, and I don't think anyone should be guilt tripped into paying 5 bucks just so they can keep the lights on.
40k is one of the most expensive hobbies to begin with. They can't survive off the minimum 20 bucks us plastic-crack addicts spend every time we enter the store? Please.
They can't survive off the minimum 20 bucks us plastic-crack addicts spend every time we enter the store? Please
I usually spend nothing.
That's why it doesn't bother me to pay $5 per game day (unless I was gaming there every day). My store doesn't charge anything, so I try to find things to buy...(but usually can't)
It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.
I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
Yeah, I don't understand why the idea of paying a small fee is such an issue. My local store charges £1 per person per 2x4ft board. So Warmachine is £2 and 40k is £3 per person. Seems entirely reasonable to me. If you can't/won't pay the fee then you can play at people's houses.
Crimson Devil wrote: It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.
I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.
"It's not a guilt trip, but here's a guilt trip"
so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for.
In my observation the people who want to play in a store without buying from the store are quite happy to pay separately for the tables.
So it's not a "sense of entitlement", it's "I don't want to support your business model".
A friend has opened a gaming store and is slowly, growing his business. He charges a nominal fee for people to come in and rent table space for games etc, and it works because it is not extortionate. He lets people bring food in, and sells drinks and bars of chocolate and crisps himself. In doing so he has created a lovely friendly little scene in the store, and it works as more and more people, and better yet, a great diversity of people come in and use the store.
I think its great that some let people come in and paint and play for free but can uderstand why many do not.
The local gaming store in my town doesn't charge for tables, but doesn't got out of their way to add anything to the terrain or the gaming tables. All the terrain has been donated by players.
The store doesn't even stock much 40k, so I don't buy from there much other than for snacks while I'm playing occasionally.
Crimson Devil wrote: It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.
I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.
"It's not a guilt trip, but here's a guilt trip"
so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for.
In my observation the people who want to play in a store without buying from the store are quite happy to pay separately for the tables.
So it's not a "sense of entitlement", it's "I don't want to support your business model".
Anyone willing to pay for a table is not who I'm talking about. The people I'm talking about are incapable of feeling guilty, or shame. The people who piss on the floor, because it's close enough.
If you don't want to support the business model that's fine. Just do it somewhere else.
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
A lot of those people are already spending all of their money just to have a small army to play with people. And might not know many people who play.
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
Yeah, I don't understand why the idea of paying a small fee is such an issue. My local store charges £1 per person per 2x4ft board. So Warmachine is £2 and 40k is £3 per person. Seems entirely reasonable to me. If you can't/won't pay the fee then you can play at people's houses.
While I'm not opposed to LGSs charging that seems ridiculously extortionate.
I have always thought that the best system would be for anyone who wanted to use tables pay a reasonable fee, say £5, but this then becomes store credit on a loyalty card or something. It would make people support their FLGS if they wanted to play there, but they aren't really paying to use the tables as they get miniatures too.
Crimson Devil wrote: It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.
I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.
"It's not a guilt trip, but here's a guilt trip"
so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for.
In my observation the people who want to play in a store without buying from the store are quite happy to pay separately for the tables.
So it's not a "sense of entitlement", it's "I don't want to support your business model".
Anyone willing to pay for a table is not who I'm talking about. The people I'm talking about are incapable of feeling guilty, or shame. The people who piss on the floor, because it's close enough.
If you don't want to support the business model that's fine. Just do it somewhere else.
And how many of those people do you actually think there are? Are you sure you're not just talking angrily to the walls?
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
Yeah, I don't understand why the idea of paying a small fee is such an issue. My local store charges £1 per person per 2x4ft board. So Warmachine is £2 and 40k is £3 per person. Seems entirely reasonable to me. If you can't/won't pay the fee then you can play at people's houses.
While I'm not opposed to LGSs charging that seems ridiculously extortionate.
If the tables are decent quality why do you think it's extortionate? How much do you think it costs the store to set up that table?
It's maybe a couple of days to a week's worth of work to set up a good table, plus the cost of the raw materials, you're probably looking at a couple of hundred dollars to maybe $400 or more to set up a table. The store has rent to pay and the tables are taking up space and they have employees to pay who may be employed later than usual so people can be playing games (most of the "gaming" stores around here are open late).
Unless the table is just a cheap piece of crap set up in the corner and your store is still only open regular business hours, paying a few bucks to use the table isn't really all that much.
There's not too many other activities you can do for only a few bucks for a few hours.
The store credit system is the best, but you have to keep track of that information all the time.
There is a rumor the biggest store in the area I live is going to become a paid membership only. Even if you want to play anything (even Magic) or paint Gundams.
Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?
SolarCross wrote: Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?
Several problems with this, but I'll just highlight the two largest ones.
Many areas have minuscule wargaming populations. Only shops in major metropolitan areas could hope to survive with that kind of business model due to the sheer number (or more a lack of) of interested bodies. Tournaments / game nights generally pander to adults. As a result they generally they start in the late afternoon / early evening after people are done with work, picked up their kids from school, and other activities, which means that they'll often take place during rush hour. As a result even stores in densely populated areas are somewhat strangled in how far they can reliably draw people from.
Similarly but also somewhat different, a shop with this model would require a large (and constant) client base to function. If you're getting five dollars a head for just the right to play / access to the tables, you're going to need an average of 20 heads a day to simply 100$ a day. Now that's not much income for a business, and how many of us can reasonably think of a store which has an average of 20 people, a day, interested in playing 40k / magic / ect. This number becomes more obtainable if you factor in food and average it (I.E. 60 heads on friday covers numerous days), but this still comes with the issue of being below the bare-minimum profit wise.
Last, but not least, this thread is a perfect example of why this idea would be doomed to fail: Many people balk at the idea of paying anything to play, so you'd lose a large number of potential customers to them being too cheap to fork over a few bucks for a superior playing area.
SolarCross wrote: Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?
Several problems with this, but I'll just highlight the two largest ones.
Many areas have minuscule wargaming populations. Only shops in major metropolitan areas could hope to survive with that kind of business model due to the sheer number (or more a lack of) of interested bodies. Tournaments / game nights generally pander to adults. As a result they generally they start in the late afternoon / early evening after people are done with work, picked up their kids from school, and other activities, which means that they'll often take place during rush hour. As a result even stores in densely populated areas are somewhat strangled in how far they can reliably draw people from.
Similarly but also somewhat different, a shop with this model would require a large (and constant) client base to function. If you're getting five dollars a head for just the right to play / access to the tables, you're going to need an average of 20 heads a day to simply 100$ a day. Now that's not much income for a business, and how many of us can reasonably think of a store which has an average of 20 people, a day, interested in playing 40k / magic / ect. This number becomes more obtainable if you factor in food and average it (I.E. 60 heads on friday covers numerous days), but this still comes with the issue of being below the bare-minimum profit wise.
Last, but not least, this thread is a perfect example of why this idea would be doomed to fail: Many people balk at the idea of paying anything to play, so you'd lose a large number of potential customers to them being too cheap to fork over a few bucks for a superior playing area.
I've seen a couple of stores seemingly execute this business plan. One of them closed a few years back but my understanding was that was a rental issue (they rented a large area, about 75% of which was just dedicated to gaming and a little section which had a limited range of models both new and 2nd hand and a cafeteria, my understanding was they closed because the land lord raised their rent disproportionately one year so they suddenly and unexpectedly had to close.
The other store that uses the gaming over miniature selling as a business model has a similar setup, they rent out a reasonably large area, have a couple of dozen tables set up and carry a lot of different miniature games but only a limited selection from each one. They haven't closed yet but I haven't asked the owner how well he is or is not doing.
I think when it comes to that sort of stuff, you probably want an area with established clubs and get the clubs involved to make sure you have money coming in. If you can organise with clubs to rent out the whole area from time to time it becomes more viable. In Australia you can also get a liquor license for closed events more easily, so it opens the door to selling booze at club events (for better or for worse, but that's what the local place does, they have booze they're only allowed to sell during private events).
There was another place a little far away called Board and Burgers. They had a restaurant and a small selection of board games to play. They only lasted 5 months since one of the co-owners wanted to get at least $2,000 month in net revenues for her alone. I think she wanted to become rich in one year.
SolarCross wrote: Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?
In the area I live in, there are a lot of gaming stores. You've got The Geekery, 31st Century Games, Tabletop, Collector's Cache, a GW Store, Pulp Fiction, and Game Cafe all within the Kansas City Metro. And those are just the ones I've heard of (I've only been here 2 years). None of which charge for tables, and all of which have at least 5 6'x4' tables and enough decent terrain to cover every table.
I don't see how your proposed model would work in an already saturated market. And I'm in favor of charging for table use.
Personally, having never really encountered a store that charges to play, it's an odd concept to me.
We have a few local gaming groups that charge a members fee, which grants discounts to events and games, but that is because they purely run games and need the income to rent the space they use.
I'd see it as the store inviting you to use their tables is just an opportunity for them to promote themselves and win you over as a customer, so would be a little put off if they tried to charge for a casual game.
SolarCross wrote: Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?
In the area I live in, there are a lot of gaming stores. You've got The Geekery, 31st Century Games, Tabletop, Collector's Cache, a GW Store, Pulp Fiction, and Game Cafe all within the Kansas City Metro. And those are just the ones I've heard of (I've only been here 2 years). None of which charge for tables, and all of which have at least 5 6'x4' tables and enough decent terrain to cover every table.
I don't see how your proposed model would work in an already saturated market. And I'm in favor of charging for table use.
Wel,, naturally this is impossible in such a heavy saturated market unless the tables and surrounding services they provide are above and beyond what any of the others offer, however most of us do NOT life in such luxuries markets (and if there are enough players to support this many shops, there is probably some heavy stream of revenue from purchases.) and FLGS opening in said areas simply cannot compete.
I don't know a single FLGS in my area that holds any more than a single, barren table. most shops in the general area are just that-shops. at best there are a few small boardgaming tables, but not a proper wargaming table.
And by general area, I mean up to an hour and a half drive away. good luck if you don't have your own car. (not to mention gas prices factor in)
And this KILLS our local community ever since the old FLGS with proper tables closed shop. its hard to get games, its harder still to get people to join us, and it takes the wind out of everyone's sails.
Had there been a shop opening that rents you a table for 5$, even 10$, in the area, we'd probably hit that every day, because it sure as hell beats the alternative.
Firstly, thanks for all the replies. I just got home from work so I've read through them all. With the exception of one post (which did escalate rather quickly) all of these have been quite informative. It seems that a lot of EU players have to pay to play, but those prices aren't anywhere near what I'm expected to pay. I am a very firm believer in supporting local businesses in anything I do, however at the same time I am very conscience of my money, being a finance major. I have a number of expensive hobbies, believe it or not 40k being one of the cheaper ones.
I buy models with a different frequency than most of my friends. When I want something, I just buy a lot of it rather than one model at a time. When I decided I wanted to run a tank-heavy IG list, I bought 7 LRBT's in the span of a month. I recently bought $500 in Daemon models all at once, and once I finish those I'm going to buy a few hundred dollars in Catachan models to play GSC. I like tackling large projects, one at a time, and moving on to the next one.
So this $5 almost "layaway" system really doesn't do me any good. If the LGS had a system in place to track my purchases so that every $50 tank I bought counted me for 2.5 months of play then sure, I wouldn't mind. But I spend enough money there as it is, and I don't want to have to constantly bring $5 in every week. As someone said previously, is the ~240 in revenue from forcing me to play worth the loss of $500? Shouldn't I as the customer be able to decide how I purchase my models? What if I just don't want to purchase any models for the time being and I accrue a large amount in store credit but have to move due to being in the military? I'd just have to dump that all on models that I don't even want. Sounds like a bad situation to me.
Honestly the only thing holding me back from never visiting that store again is the community that plays there. We have a good number of casual players that can have fun with weird lists or just laugh whether winning or losing. Fortunately for me there are a few other gaming stores around, including one that opened up recently that is only a few minute drive from my house. Not only does this place have a larger play area than storefront, the owner is a 40k fan, and he has been very accommodating to me when I want to play 40k on a non-40k day or even keep the store open a little late just so we can finish the game. He even offers a military discount as well as discounts on anything ordered through the store.
Have you spoken to the Store owner over this yet? Just curious.
Tamwulf wrote:$5/week for several hours of entertainment, use of table space and terrain, and the chance to earn that money back and then some in store credit every month? Sign me up!
$5 < a cup of coffee at Starbucks, less then a burger at whatever Fast Food place you pick, less then a couple gallons of gas to drive somewhere, way, way cheaper then any video game (unless you buy the garbage games on Steam LOL), cheaper then a book...
Yeah, $5/week is pretty much nothing in a hobby where the standard 10 model Space Marine box costs $40. Heck, you can barely buy a bottle of paint for $5, and certainly not a good paint brush.
You can stand on a and shout out it's the principle of the thing, but that $5 is paying for so much more. It's helping keeping the doors of the FLGS open. It pays for terrain to go on the tables. The chance to win more money appeals to a lot of people (that stupid gambler gene), so the chances of having an opponent to play against go up. You get to talk and hang out with fellow 40K players. Nothing in life is free. And the FLGS's that allow you to play for free don't typically stay open for long (unless the owner just sucks up the loss and covers it in other ways).
The $5/week is a win/win situation. Both for you and the store. If you have problems coming up with $5/week, you are in the wrong hobby.
In the wrong hobby? Maybe the store owner is in the wrong business. Again, maybe a $1000 or $1500 a year is not a lot of money to you or the store in a years purchase, but for me it is. If I am buying from store that gives no discounts and I am paying full price, I would expect he let me play for free and not charge me to play. Otherwise, I will take that $1500 and buy else where. Again, you rather have $5 from me than per game, so again about $270 a year, but I don't even play every week so it would be even less. So I guess me spending $1500 a year is not appreciative enough that you need more? That is Games Workshop tactics, take as much money from a customer you can. Thing is, GW lets you play for free in their stores. So this is even worse than GW tactics.
Jacksmiles wrote:I've heard that gaming stores stay in business primarily thanks to tcg's like Magic the Gathering - doing events and selling singles. It's actually apparently lucrative enough to allow them to have minimal models sales and not have to worry about it.
It must be. I swear I don't know how my Gaming Café store stays in business. I am sure it's Magic cards that keep him afloat.
insaniak wrote:
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
Is it so unreasonable to "Not be charged" when you spend like $1500 a year at his store and no where else? I agree, if you don't buy from the store, pay to play. If you spend money at the store buy making major purchases at that store then I say you shouldn't have to play.
Capt. Camping wrote: There was another place a little far away called Board and Burgers. They had a restaurant and a small selection of board games to play. They only lasted 5 months since one of the co-owners wanted to get at least $2,000 month in net revenues for her alone. I think she wanted to become rich in one year.
If it's a full-time job, wanting to make $24,000 a year doesn't seem overly greedy to me.
Of course, almost all businesses lose money their first year, so you need to take a long-term view.
I don't like that system, It just lets Johnny Combobreaker have an easier 40k life and your one person paying for it. Say 65$ pooled store credit 20 going to winner 15 to runner up and the store keeps 30. But yeah your the guy that sends 5$ just to play casually has nothing to do with a tourny or any interest in competitive play is being taxed period. That owner really needs to divide casual and tourney play costs. The way he has it right now just promotes competitive bullying and loses store interest which is YOU right now. If you had to pay for just table time and not fund Johnny Combobreaker I'm sold lets go. I would be more then happy to pay for table time and space, or come to an agreement to buy something monthly. But I'm not paying into a pool I don't play or have any interest playing. I mean what if your there to play a 750 point game and don't even have 1850 he gunna hit you for 5$ then. This is almost as dumb as public money being used to fund private sports teams and there stadiums hella dumb.
What would be really sad is like 7 casuals and 2 TFG's... Everyone paying for their 40k life, seems hella legit... haha! I get where your coming from with this.
This $5 goes to store credit, but this store offers no discounts of any kind, whereas a majority of the other LGS around do, and this store also provides no additional terrain. We have a few members that make a majority of it themselves and donate.
Viridian has a great point, and it's worth mentioning that the same few people consistently win the pool because they run extremely hard lists. (4 riptides in a 1k point match anyone?) If I remember correctly the pool is $50 for 1st place and $30 for second, with the organizer (who is a volunteer, not a staff member) gets $20. So while the store gives away $100/mo in store credit, it makes ~$250/mo from the pool.
Davor wrote: In the wrong hobby? Maybe the store owner is in the wrong business. Again, maybe a $1000 or $1500 a year is not a lot of money to you or the store in a years purchase, but for me it is. If I am buying from store that gives no discounts and I am paying full price, I would expect he let me play for free and not charge me to play. Otherwise, I will take that $1500 and buy else where. Again, you rather have $5 from me than per game, so again about $270 a year, but I don't even play every week so it would be even less. So I guess me spending $1500 a year is not appreciative enough that you need more?
As has been said several times in this thread, that $5 could easily be a store voucher rather than just $5 out of pocket. For me I'm happy to just pay $5 out of pocket because I don't really buy many miniatures anymore. I could stop buying miniatures today and still not finish painting what I have for the next 2 or 3 years.
For people still building their armies it makes sense to have the table cost in the form of store vouchers to buy other stuff.
To me it just sounds like a bad business model to not discount but have free tables. It makes more sense I think to discount a little bit and then charge for table use. It's so easy to find discount models these days, it's much harder to find a place big enough with enough tables to house a decent sized club event.
Thing is, GW lets you play for free in their stores. So this is even worse than GW tactics.
Let's not forget that GW stores on average are LOSING money and they don't discount like most FLGS's do. And most GW stores only have 1 or 2 usable tables, the places that I've been to that charge money for table use have upwards of 10 tables. When a huge chunk of the store is taken up by tables, you have to consider that basically a chunk of rent is going to having tables present.
Capt. Camping wrote: There was another place a little far away called Board and Burgers. They had a restaurant and a small selection of board games to play. They only lasted 5 months since one of the co-owners wanted to get at least $2,000 month in net revenues for her alone. I think she wanted to become rich in one year.
If it's a full-time job, wanting to make $24,000 a year doesn't seem overly greedy to me.
Of course, almost all businesses lose money their first year, so you need to take a long-term view.
This really highlights the problem. Way too many people act like free game hosting and cheap prices are things they're entitled to, and game stores are charities where the owners should accept poverty-level wages for the benefit of the people they serve.
I see nothing wrong with the store charging for league play, but charging to play regardless if you're in the league or not is kinda rubbish. My FLGS only ever charges when they have a tourney event going on and then most of the money paid goes to the various prices. I'd talk to one of the other managers of the store, one that you know. Perhaps she was new and just confused on who had to pay.
I pay to go to the gym - even if I've bought my sports kit at the shop there. I don't expect the supermarket to provide me with a free cooker and dining table, even though I bought the food there. I pay to use amusement machines, even though I have games consoles at home.
Sure, they help sales, but free tables are a privilege - not a right
Fee to store credit seems like a pretty reasonable proposition in my eye. And if it's a buy in to a league - even better!
The clubs I've played at have all charged a small fee for maintenance and site rent etc. Usually in the region of £1-3. This is totally fine to me because these places need to get get funding from somewhere, and for cost of entertainment, £1-3 for an afternoon's wargaming is a pretty sound deal. That your buy in goes towards store credit seems like a really nice touch on your FLGS's part. The only money you're actually paying is the difference between the cost of cheaper webstore products, and your FLGS who you might want to be supporting anyway.
tilarium wrote: I see nothing wrong with the store charging for league play, but charging to play regardless if you're in the league or not is kinda rubbish.
I really don't understand why this is such a prevalent idea.
The table costs money to build, both for materials and you have to pay employees to build it (imagine it takes a couple of days to a week to build a table, add on the material costs and you're looking at maybe $200-400 in set up costs). The building housing the tables cost money to rent (stores with many tables need a lot of floor space, without tables they could rent somewhere cheaper or in a better location, it could easily be a couple of grand a year difference in rent).
Why is it rubbish for stores to charge money to use them? I understand that it's a form of advertising, but if that form of advertising isn't working then it's no longer advertising, it's a service which is costing them money and they can either bundle that cost in to inflated miniature prices or just charge for tables separately.
I go to a pub, I pay to use the pool table even though I'm also giving them money for booze. I don't really see how this is any different.
This really highlights the problem. Way too many people act like free game hosting and cheap prices are things they're entitled to, and game stores are charities where the owners should accept poverty-level wages for the benefit of the people they serve.
For perspective, try and find out how much commercial space costs (rental) per square foot in the area of your FLGS. Multiply that by the amount of space the table takes up (including space for the players and terrain) and you'll find out approximately how much per month a gaming table costs the store to host for a month.
For example, where I live, it costs $2-4 CAN a square foot per month. So a 4x8 gaming table, with a 2 foot clearance around it; 8x12=96, so it's $192-384 (200-400) a month. If, as a retailer, I wanted that space to recover its cost, I'd have to determine how many games would be played on it over the course of a month. Probably 2 games a day on mon-thurs (expect afternoon/evening only), 4 games/day fri-sun (20 games a week, 80 games/month). That puts a 'table fee' at $2.50-$5, That's JUST to keep the table from being a 'loss leader'.
As a retailer, you want your space to be turning a profit. If you have free tables, you have to expect to recoup it on extra sales, which needs to be double what the space costs (assuming the retailer buys his product at 1/2). So a table space like this needs to generate $400-800 in extra sales a month to break even on the rent, never mind the other expenses (wages, taxes, insurance, shoplifting, etcetera). It probably needs double this amount of sales to break even overall, so probably you're looking at a necessary $800-1600 in extra sales every month to justify the table existing.
IMO game stores tend to sit at the cheaper end of the rental spectrum for this very reason. To generate enough gamer traffic, you want 2-3 tables (one is not enough to create a community) and you need that community to generate the additional sales to justify it.
Crimson Devil wrote: It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.
I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.
"It's not a guilt trip, but here's a guilt trip"
so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for.
In my observation the people who want to play in a store without buying from the store are quite happy to pay separately for the tables.
So it's not a "sense of entitlement", it's "I don't want to support your business model".
Anyone willing to pay for a table is not who I'm talking about. The people I'm talking about are incapable of feeling guilty, or shame. The people who piss on the floor, because it's close enough.
If you don't want to support the business model that's fine. Just do it somewhere else.
And how many of those people do you actually think there are? Are you sure you're not just talking angrily to the walls?
I probably am. After working in retail for many years; I don't have much faith in basic humanity anymore.
XCaligulaX wrote:This $5 goes to store credit, but this store offers no discounts of any kind, whereas a majority of the other LGS around do,
Do you mean you get a $5 store credit for paying this? I never herd of paying to play but then you get $5 off your next purchase. Just want to make sure I am reading this correctly. This is basically the store giving you a free pot of paint for playing. How is he making money? Or is it the pot goes to the winner in store credit?
Viridian has a great point, and it's worth mentioning that the same few people consistently win the pool because they run extremely hard lists. (4 riptides in a 1k point match anyone?)
And playing Unbound makes you TFG and is horrible to play.
If I remember correctly the pool is $50 for 1st place and $30 for second, with the organizer (who is a volunteer, not a staff member) gets $20. So while the store gives away $100/mo in store credit, it makes ~$250/mo from the pool.
Nothing wrong with this, thing is, you shouldn't be forced to pay for this if you don't want to play in the league. What did the owner of the store say?
AllSeeingSkink wrote:Let's not forget that GW stores on average are LOSING money and they don't discount like most FLGS's do. And most GW stores only have 1 or 2 usable tables, the places that I've been to that charge money for table use have upwards of 10 tables. When a huge chunk of the store is taken up by tables, you have to consider that basically a chunk of rent is going to having tables present.
Fair enough. I see your point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: This really highlights the problem. Way too many people act like free game hosting and cheap prices are things they're entitled to, and game stores are charities where the owners should accept poverty-level wages for the benefit of the people they serve.
I am sorry I am not seeing your point. You are correct. It's not a charity. So why are people saying stores are a charity and I need to support them? Are you saying I should be supporting this store? Isn't that me supporting a charity then?
Isn't the store suppose to offer us what we want? Look I understand bills need to be paid. Rent, hydro, water, wages etc. Thing is, if I am not getting no discounts, not vouchers to be used later, no points or anything like that, why should I keep buying from that store then? I can go else where and get discounts if I so choose to. So what is the store doing to get my business? I am sorry here Peregrin, you are basically telling us we should support the store like they were a charity instead. After all the store is suppose to give us a reason to shop there. We don't need to shop there just because it's there.
So if a person can get a game else where, can buy cheaper product else where, why shouldn't they be entitled to get what he can get? Why should this person be supporting a charity then that is out for him/herself?
*edit*
I have a store, or gaming Café that finally sells GW product now. I don't get no discounts. I get no vouchers or store credit. What I do get is games though. So now I have stopped shopping else where and getting discounts and buy through him because he is a very nice guy, and I finally can play again instead of minis I buy at a cheaper discount and just collect dust. When I can't buy minis, I pay to play, even though I don't have to so I can still support him.
Thing is, what is the Original Posters store offering the Original Poster? That is the question here. If he is not offering him anything then he should leave. This is nothing about being entitled. Like I said earlier. If the original poster buys over $500 a year product from this store while he can shop and game else where, why should he have to also pay to game especially if he is not part of the league. I believe he says he can go else where and get cheaper product if he wanted to but doesn't.
So no. This is nothing about entitlement, but what the store should be doing to entice him as a customer. You are totally wrong here.
Brother Michael wrote: Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.
No, there isn't.
They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.
If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.
Yeah, I don't understand why the idea of paying a small fee is such an issue. My local store charges £1 per person per 2x4ft board. So Warmachine is £2 and 40k is £3 per person. Seems entirely reasonable to me. If you can't/won't pay the fee then you can play at people's houses.
While I'm not opposed to LGSs charging that seems ridiculously extortionate.
If the tables are decent quality why do you think it's extortionate? How much do you think it costs the store to set up that table?
It's maybe a couple of days to a week's worth of work to set up a good table, plus the cost of the raw materials, you're probably looking at a couple of hundred dollars to maybe $400 or more to set up a table. The store has rent to pay and the tables are taking up space and they have employees to pay who may be employed later than usual so people can be playing games (most of the "gaming" stores around here are open late).
Unless the table is just a cheap piece of crap set up in the corner and your store is still only open regular business hours, paying a few bucks to use the table isn't really all that much.
There's not too many other activities you can do for only a few bucks for a few hours.
So paying £12 for 2 games of 40k (your opponent has to find these charges reasonable, too) is fine? Nope. That's straight up extortion. My FLGS has great boards and great terrain and only charges £1 per person per game or £2 for all day gaming (so it's better value if you play 3+ games). These charges were only brought in after a year of it being open and the charges were more than reasonable for buying new neoprene mats and terrain. I'd love to know what this guy is spending these charges on as he should have boards rivalling Warhammer World after charging that much.
As for the cost of terrain, you do understand that GW gives FLGSs credit in their accounts to simply buy terrain with? Although not ideal for everyone, you can fit out several tables with GW terrain for literally nothing.
It's a little high, but I didn't see where the poster said that was "per game". I assumed it was for a certain amount of time rather than for a single game. The places I've been to you pay your money for a table and you can keep using it until the store closes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ruin wrote: I'd love to know what this guy is spending these charges on....
You do realise rent and wages are a thing, right? Just because your retailer buys a box of miniatures for $50 and sells it to you for $80 doesn't mean they're pocketing $30.
It seems like there's two separate issues here. There's the $5 per evening table fee, which the player gets back in store credit. That's not so unreasonable If you're purchasing from the store on a regular basis anyway, then they get that money one way or another. That wouldn't bother me. It's less than going to the movies.
I think the real issue is this weekly tournament league thing, which is souring the store's meta because it's rewarding WAAC lists and behavior. I see that as being a major misstep on the part of the store. It's more apt to drive people away than it is to attract players.
Also, one thing that struck me as I read the discussion, 40K purchasing habits are going to tend to be more feast-or-famine for the LGS. Magic and other CCGs, a player can drop $10-$20 and get a reasonable value. Plus, they can put what they purchase to use almost right away, so there's lag time caused by preparing the purchase for use.
With 40K, it's hard to get much worth having for less than $50, and when you do purchase it takes time to assemble (and maybe paint) the purchase before you can use it. That makes players likely not to purchase 40K things on a weekly basis and less likely to impulse buy, because significant purchases are going cost more. So, how any store can support itself on 40K alone is beyond me. GW must take a loss on almost all of its Game Centers.
Ruin wrote: So paying £12 for 2 games of 40k (your opponent has to find these charges reasonable, too) is fine? Nope. That's straight up extortion.
I don't think you understand what "extortion" means.
I'd love to know what this guy is spending these charges on as he should have boards rivalling Warhammer World after charging that much.
Why is the store owner obligated to invest all the money they make into improving the toys you get to play with? The store owner has to make a profit, you know.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Davor wrote: So if a person can get a game else where, can buy cheaper product else where, why shouldn't they be entitled to get what he can get? Why should this person be supporting a charity then that is out for him/herself?
You're NOT obligated to buy from a particular store. I have no problem with people saying "these prices are higher than the competition, I'm going elsewhere". The issue is the entitled attitude that store owners who charge "too much" are all greedy and immoral and how dare they make money off the community. Just look at the person I quoted, with their outraged whining about the idea that a store owner could dare to make $24k/year.
I think that, in the OPs situation, I wouldn't really want to pay, but if it was just a simple fee for use of table per game, I'd have no problem paying that. It's reasonable to rent my spot for a small charge, not to pay into a pool I've no interest in.
I suppose I'm a little spoiled in that I live in a metropolitan area, and there is no shortage of LGS in my area. There are 4 that are pretty close by, and another 2-3 just around an hour or so away. So for me, a store that wants me to pay $5 and offers no discounts, and all but forbids 40k play on any day other than the league nights just isn't too appealing. I've decided to start going to an LGS that's closer, offers discounts, and is much more friendly to customers.
If the non-GWFLGS here charged I'd definitely pay for it, would make me feel better about going there to play but not wanting to really buy anything but a drink or so at the time.
I do support them when I can, just I'm not going to force myself to buy something I don't even want either and I know a little thing here and there like drinks does't really help them out all that much.
Well, I think I'd suggest mentioning to the manager that you are not going to put up with this rule, since it's obviously a big problem for you.
And then ask them if your continued presence in and business with their store is worth charging you the admission fee.
At this point, if they still refuse to waive the fee, then you have your answer, and should find another place to play WH40k.
However, you also have to consider whether the admission fee is worth playing WH40k at this store, instead of the alternative. And that's something you can only figure out for yourself.
A) How much do you spend a week
B) How many additional staff does your local store owner employ
C) How many regulars does your store have
X = Y - Z
Y = ((A*0.2)*C)
Z = (B*250)+500
Y is profit
Z is costs
X is how much the store owner takes home
Assumptions
-Building rental\utilities on your LGS is £500 a week
-Average store employee takes home £250 a week (minimum wage, pretax)
-Profit margin on product is 20%
Let's do an optimistic example
I spend £100 EVERY week in my local game store
My local store has 50 REGULARS who spend the same each week as I do.
The local store employs 1 additional person
£1000 profit
-£750 upkeep
Store owner X is taking home £250 a week before taxes. National minimum wage.
Does your local store have 50 regular players spending £100 a week EACH? Mine doesn't. Running a LGS is a charity, not a get rich quick scheme.
In the area I live in, there are a lot of gaming stores. You've got The Geekery, 31st Century Games, Tabletop, Collector's Cache, a GW Store, Pulp Fiction, and Game Cafe all within the Kansas City Metro. And those are just the ones I've heard of (I've only been here 2 years). None of which charge for tables, and all of which have at least 5 6'x4' tables and enough decent terrain to cover every table.
I don't see how your proposed model would work in an already saturated market. And I'm in favor of charging for table use.
Since you brought it up, Collector's Cache actually offers the same model for their 40k league. It's optional to do so, but if you are playing in the league (Which usually features some level of campaign elements, be it a few special mission rules, or an entire campaign depending on the season,) you pay five dollars. At the end of the league, you get all of your money back in store credit. As an extra note, if you're playing in the league, you get a small discount. (It's like 5-10%, but it is certainly a discount!)
I have no problems with this system. Collector's Cache (like many LGS,) offers a wide variety of tables to use, has a ton of optional terrain (Well, a little bit of it is actually my terrain that I leave there, but that's aside the point,) and I was going to be spending that money on 40k stuff anyways.
The way I see it, it's a minor safeguard against players coming to use the tables without ever making the LGS any money. It is a business after all, and asking players to buy five dollars of product a week isn't very much.
I don't play in a game store all of the time. In fact, when talking 40k, its less than 10 times since I started playing in 2008. Each time, however, I've bought something that I needed. Not new paints or glue or chips, but maybe a new codex, new box of Tacticals or Rhino, etc. Not due to any guilt, but due to support. I needed those things, I like that the store was here for me to play in, and I wanted to support the store.
In my card playing days (Star Wars CCG from Decipher), there was only one store that charged for table space where I played, but it was always full of players. Many players that often bought their boxes of cards online, not supporting the store. I get it. I didn't like it at the time, but I understand why they had to do it.
I would pay a nominal fee to play. Say, $5 for a 3 hour table reserve. More than that? I'd probably say no.
A) How much do you spend a week
B) How many additional staff does your local store owner employ
C) How many regulars does your store have
X = Y - Z
Y = ((A*0.2)*C)
Z = (B*250)+500
Y is profit
Z is costs
X is how much the store owner takes home
Assumptions
-Building rental\utilities on your LGS is £500 a week
-Average store employee takes home £250 a week (minimum wage, pretax)
-Profit margin on product is 20%
Let's do an optimistic example
I spend £100 EVERY week in my local game store
My local store has 50 REGULARS who spend the same each week as I do.
The local store employs 1 additional person
£1000 profit
-£750 upkeep
Store owner X is taking home £250 a week before taxes. National minimum wage.
Does your local store have 50 regular players spending £100 a week EACH? Mine doesn't. Running a LGS is a charity, not a get rich quick scheme.
Obviously the store is doing fine as it's been open for a number of years. It's common knowledge that LGS make their money from Magic, not 40k. So allow me to make some assumptions of my own. Will the store still have participation if the league isn't mandatory? Yes it will. There are still plenty of players who want the opportunity to win money, and speaking to my group I know this to be a fact. Will not making the league mandatory make or break the store? Of course it won't. If it wasn't mandatory they'd probably pull in a few more players who have the same views that I do.
Obviously the store is doing fine as it's been open for a number of years.
Not necessarily. I'm close friends with two local store owners. One store has been around for 20+ years and the other about 10. Both are consistently walking a tight-rope in terms of making/losing money. As has been mentioned already - running a game store in the current age is more of a "labor of love"/charity than it is a money making business venture.
It's common knowledge that LGS make their money from Magic, not 40k.
Games like Magic bring more people into the store, but, as Kronk pointed out, a lot of people buy a good chunk of their cards on-line.
From my perspective, it just looks like the owner sees the play area as another revenue stream.
If he wants to be successful, he absolutely SHOULD see the table space that way. Every table is a spot that could have actually revenue generating merchandise displays rather than a table. Monetizing that space is perfectly reasonable and a 5$ fee that goes to store credit really isn't unreasonable.
There was a FLGS in Maidstone who apparently charged for gaming terms.
Was
I'd be shocked if that policy is the reason they went under. It's a lot more likely that the store was already on its way out and this was a last-ditch effort to try and generate some much needed cash. I've seen plenty of stores that charge nominal fees to use their tables from day 1 and plenty that started with free tables and had to eventually start charging. 9 times out of 10, those that charged up-front, as well as those that began charging at some point, ended up better for it. The stores that went under, were already failing.
I would never pay for tables. I might have like a "membership fee", like $15 a month or something that gave me access to tables and a discount on products, like a "premium members club" sort of approach. But paying just to play is riduclous, and is yet another reason why I feel that the age of the FLGS as a place to play is going away, because it as a business thrives on guilt-tripping you into only buying there by trying to appeal to your sense of charity, when often there's no compelling reason besides that to shop there (often little or no discount, have to custom order many products and wait weeks for it to arrive, etc.) literally the ONLY thing a game shop provides is space, and they treat space as being the rarest commodity of all. No other business does that.
Wayniac wrote: literally the ONLY thing a game shop provides is space, and they treat space as being the rarest commodity of all. No other business does that.
That's the thing that costs the most money! A good sized games room of 6 or so tables could be a comfortable bedsit, 1 bed flat or even rented/sub-let to another small business.
I see that you are American so perhaps space isn't an issue but in the UK it is very much THE issue, this is one of the reasons people do go to Games Stores or clubs as they don't have the space to play at home. It depends where you live and what the property prices are like.
Pubs/restaurants put a mark up onto drinks etc, if game stores did that they wouldn't sell a single box. What option do they have left other than 'hiding' that fee elsewhere?
Wayniac wrote: literally the ONLY thing a game shop provides is space, and they treat space as being the rarest commodity of all. No other business does that.
That's the thing that costs the most money! A good sized games room of 6 or so tables could be a comfortable bedsit, 1 bed flat or even rented/sub-let to another small business. I see that you are American so perhaps space isn't an issue but in the UK it is very much THE issue, this is one of the reasons people do go to Games Stores or clubs as they don't have the space to play at home. It depends where you live and what the property prices are like. Pubs/restaurants put a mark up onto drinks etc, if game stores did that they wouldn't sell a single box. What option do they have left other than 'hiding' that fee elsewhere?
I'm a proponent of clubs over stores, in part because I've seen a lot of territorial "gang" mentality surrounding stores. People calling others out for promoting another store, accusations of "Stealing customers" by saying that hey another store is nearby too that has games. People saying if a store doesn't sell a game, you can't even play it there because the store can't profit off of the game. It's ridiculous. If space is the biggest issue, I'd much rather pay "membership dues" for only table space, and the rest be damned. Clubs already do that, don't they? Members pay dues so the club can rent space and maybe have club terrain or whatnot? I would not want to pay per day though, or like buy X in product and it's waived.
I'm a proponent of clubs over stores, in part because I've seen a lot of territorial "gang" mentality surrounding stores. People calling others out for promoting another store, accusations of "Stealing customers" by saying that hey another store is nearby too that has games. People saying if a store doesn't sell a game, you can't even play it there because the store can't profit off of the game. It's ridiculous. If space is the biggest issue, I'd much rather pay "membership dues" for only table space, and the rest be damned. Clubs already do that, don't they? Members pay dues so the club can rent space and maybe have club terrain or whatnot? I would not want to pay per day though, or like buy X in product and it's waived.
I've seen all of those bad behaviors in clubs as well. I think your real issue is less with stores, and more with bad stores. If a store had a bad environment, I wouldn't play there whether it was free to play or not.
Oh it's good they're only playing X Wing or board/card games ie 4 per table, no terrain. Surely they should pay less. Or
Clubs not investing in suitable terrain for what some members want because "Fish Wars" is the shot caller's favourite game etc. Or
Why is our club budget going into hosting a competitive tournament. I don't agree with that playstyle.
Often when these issues get out of hand it's time to open a new club or even store.
You'll often find that Clubs have semi professionals pushing in a certain direction for their own personal gain, either as commission painters, terrain makers, a guy who can get things cheap from a certain company, the guy who 'helps' to put together the club order and skims a bit, the TO, the guy who does the T-Shirts through his uncles business, the guy with a girlfriend who supplies the cakes etc
Hobby ego politics is an awful game to play but it happens.
Wayniac wrote: I'm a proponent of clubs over stores, in part because I've seen a lot of territorial "gang" mentality surrounding stores. People calling others out for promoting another store, accusations of "Stealing customers" by saying that hey another store is nearby too that has games. People saying if a store doesn't sell a game, you can't even play it there because the store can't profit off of the game. It's ridiculous. If space is the biggest issue, I'd much rather pay "membership dues" for only table space, and the rest be damned. Clubs already do that, don't they? Members pay dues so the club can rent space and maybe have club terrain or whatnot? I would not want to pay per day though, or like buy X in product and it's waived.
Whether you pay membership fees or pay per play is just arguing the fine print. You're paying to use the tables either way, someone who plays lots of games per month might prefer a membership fee or someone like me who plays more irregularly will prefer to pay per play as I'll sometimes go months on end without playing so a membership fee would completely turn me off.
Before we had gaming stores in this area that are large enough to have 10+ tables, clubs would rent out community halls and whatnot for big games nights. With the larger stores, clubs tend to rent out the stores instead. It's almost the same situation but it's better because you tend to get a mixing of clubs and smaller clubs have the option of just renting out part of the space where previously they couldn't afford to rent a larger community hall and previously some clubs themselves didn't have the tables/terrain to host a large even but now they can.
The stuff you're complaining about....
People calling others out for promoting another store, accusations of "Stealing customers" by saying that hey another store is nearby too that has games. People saying if a store doesn't sell a game, you can't even play it there because the store can't profit off of the game. It's ridiculous.
...stores that charge money for tables alleviates a lot of those problems. We can go in and say "yo, can I rent that table for the night" the guy behind the counter says "sure, that'll be $5" and then no one cares what models I pull out of my bag or what store they were bought from, I paid for that table so I'll put whatever I want on it.
Wayniac wrote: literally the ONLY thing a game shop provides is space, and they treat space as being the rarest commodity of all. No other business does that.
If it doesn't sell, why should any space be allocated for it? There is an item that I like (no need to say what it is, for each of us 'it' is different), it is a niche item that seems as though I am the only customer purchasing it. It makes sense that it has to be special ordered, because it is a drain on the business to keep it in stock, they don't have any on the floor (no space allocated for it), but they are happy to order it for me if I put down my money ahead of time so that they aren't actually losing money on the deal.
Tabletop games, by their definition only need space. Whether that space is on a table top, on a counter top, or on a cleared section of flooring is immaterial. that space still needs to be paid for. And while some stores are willing to break even, why should someone pay to support your habit? I have nothing inherently against **edit**any addicting habit**edit**, my problem comes when someone chooses to rob Peter to pay Paul to support their habit. My feelings about paying for gaming space run along the same lines.
I have good relations with 3 clubs in my area. One has its own real estate with minimal costs per game night and so has a set year subscription. The members of the club can come and go as they please to play games on any night but there are also set nights for specific games.
The other 2 are clubs with a common venue but rented each night by the hour with a first come first served policy for getting a table. Both these clubs charge a fee per person no matter what they play. If you are just watching as there is no room then you aren´t charged.
An LGS should be allowed to do the same as they have a policy that allows anyone to walk in and play for a minimal fee. Maybe you don´t want to enter the weekly event but you should still pay for the use of the premises. Now if the store opened up a monthly fee that allows customers to play without the daily charge that would be up to the customer to weight up that options of how many times are they likely to play as is a one of monthly fee better than paying each time they play.
Firmly on the "if stores want to be successful, they need to pull in the crowds" -side.
Tables are there to bind people, especially CCG/LGC-players but to a lesser extent also tabletop players. And by binding them, to make them loyal, make them more likely to spend money in the store.
The better you do that, the more loyal customers you generete, the more successful you will be.
Charging money for tables might be detrimental to that goal, because it diminishes people's incentive to "give something back" by buying something in the store.
All relations are built on (emotional) debts, and the moment you pay for a table, you already paid your debt.
I'm not sure if this has been corrected in the post already as unfortunately i'm at work so can't scroll through all five pages of this post but I would recommend that those calling him a leech or criticising him for not wanting to pay the charge to take a close look at what he said.
He said he was being charged for playing Warhammer and NOT that they were charging for tables in general.
I personally am fine with the principle of paying for a table to play at a shop, it's their tables so fair is fair. However I would be disgusted if the shop was specifically charging those that want to play Warhammer with this toll. That is not fair and would, in my view, rightfully warrant a negative response.
So if this store is not charging Warmachine, Infinity, MTG (Commander games can take up huge areas) or big boardgame players with this charge then the store deserves to be pointed out as being silly.
Although as said i'm not sure if this has been clarified yet so if they are charging everyone for a table (even non-Warhammer players) then actually the store is pretty fair.
Viridian has a great point, and it's worth mentioning that the same few people consistently win the pool because they run extremely hard lists. (4 riptides in a 1k point match anyone?)
And playing Unbound makes you TFG and is horrible to play.
4 Riptides is a battle-forged list. Unbound is perfectly reasonable 95% of the time, because most of the ridiculous cheese in this game is perfectly battle-forged.
Crimson Devil wrote: The issue seems to be that the league has completely taken over the 40k game night. And they don't allow 40k at any other time.
The thing I'm learning from this thread is; LGS are not a charity, but 40k players are.
There's an element of enlightened self-interest on BOTH sides.
A FLGS wants gamer traffic because (in theory) they buy stuff. So it is in their interests that they provide tables. However, it has to make economic sense.
A gamer wants access to gaming tables and opponents, rather than invite near strangers over to their home, or visit a near stranger's home for play. So it is in their interests to support a FLGS that provides tables. However, it has to make economic sense.
Bottom line, however, is that game tables are a service that provides value to the customer. Try getting together a group of people to rent a community center space and provide your own tables and terrain and see how much effort/money it requires. A gaming store table with terrain is a HUGE convenience that a lot of gamers don't fully appreciate.
John Prins wrote: Bottom line, however, is that game tables are a service that provides value to the customer. Try getting together a group of people to rent a community center space and provide your own tables and terrain and see how much effort/money it requires. A gaming store table with terrain is a HUGE convenience that a lot of gamers don't fully appreciate.
+1 to this. Having seen how hard it is to organize even something far easier-- a DnD game-- in real life, I have to say, the prospect of renting community center space, getting everything set up, and getting such a large amount of coordination out of a bunch of nerds with jobs and lives (which most warhammer players are) is pretty daunting. Hell, even organizing a skype/teamspeak/discord based dnd game is daunting enough, and sometimes impossible without involving players from around the world. A small fee for the service really does not seem out of place to me, especially if there's options (per play / per month) and they keep their shop, terrain, and tables in good condition.
A FLGS wants gamer traffic because (in theory) they buy stuff. So it is in their interests that they provide tables. However, it has to make economic sense.
It's honestly been my experience that a FLGS wants gamer traffic because they legitimately want to provide a place where people can game under the assumption that a game shop can provide the funds to deliver the service. Things start to sour as they learn this is not the case.
If it doesn't sell, why should any space be allocated for it? There is an item that I like (no need to say what it is, for each of us 'it' is different), it is a niche item that seems as though I am the only customer purchasing it. It makes sense that it has to be special ordered, because it is a drain on the business to keep it in stock, they don't have any on the floor (no space allocated for it), but they are happy to order it for me if I put down my money ahead of time so that they aren't actually losing money on the deal.
The problem with special orders is just that online stores enable the customers to special order directly in a more convenient and reliable fashion. I can think of few things as outdated as the idea of going someplace to pay some guy to do the thing I can do on my phone with a couple taps.
Compounding this issue is the fact that special orders have to go through distributors, who are their own kind of weak link in the chain. With online orders you can check stock directly and expect delivery in a week or less. With distributors you have no idea if they can get it and it can take quite a while if they have to hunt around for the item.
I think this is also why there is a new breed of like... bar/restaurant + game store that is cropping up in some urban areas. They don't need to encourage as much "Buy from me, I have tables" type of guilt-trip charity as a traditional FLGS, because you're paying more for food/drink which can cover the rent.
The issue is that stores have ulterior motives, namely to sell product and turn a profit, while a club doesn't have that interest but tends to need more capital (renting a hall or something can be expensive, not to mention transporting terrain and tables and whatnot) and is harder to organize, while a game store always occupies a specific location. The problem then becomes that a game store will cater to whoever gives it the most profit, which is why you often see MtG taking over all the available tables, shutting the wargamers out for a weekend when there's a pre-release or similar, because it's more in the store's interest to get more MtG players who will pay in to the pre-release than the group of wargamers who don't buy something constantly (also why FNM is such a huge deal, it's guaranteed profits for barely any investment, 52 weeks a year). There doesn't exist anything comparable for wargaming, because a game store often can't survive on just that alone, and if they charge that money goes to the game store, not to for example provide tables stocked with terrain which is needed for wargaming but not for card games. A club can use "dues" to rent space, buy game mats and terrain or even have "club armies" that anyone can use, but a store can't usually use funds it obtains for that purpose because those funds are entirely consumed by rent, utilities and/or paying employees.
carldooley wrote: $5 a week membership charge? TOTALLY OUTRAGEOUS!!! \sarcasm
The fact that the $5 goes towards store credit means that the owner wants to ensure that people who play at his store don't just buy everything online at cheaper prices and only use his shop to game at.
Look at it from his perspective. It is a store. It has to pay rent and for its employees. He isn't saying that you cannot game there, but he is saying that you should help with the upkeep.
If the OP wants to be a bottom feeding scum sucker, and drive that particular place into the dirt while buying all their gaming supplies elsewhere, (s)he IS EXACTLY THE TYPE OF PERSON THE CHARGE IS THERE FOR!
Look at it another way; how much do you spend on snacks\drinks? easily $5 a night. $5 a week? that goes towards store credit anyway? buy a drink and enjoy yourself.
The OP is paying for store upkeep by buying product.
I agree with some posters. If you are confronted by a store owner in a similar fashion, simply tell them it's money you will not spend on their product.
If 4-5 players save their 5 dollars a week in a few months they can have the money to buy one or maybe two tables and the needed pieces of terrain. Of course they would stay at a single place but among friends that's not a problem, right? 5$/week are a huge tax, assuming that no one plays every single week, but still that would be 150+ dollars in a year. I'd buy my table and scenarios with that money. At least one player in a friends group surely would have the required space.
Uh, what? This is a pretty significant lack of perspective on the issue, pretty much any other form of entertainment is going to cost more than $5/week.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunarSol wrote: The problem with special orders is just that online stores enable the customers to special order directly in a more convenient and reliable fashion.
Depends on the situation. If I have to pay for shipping from an online store and then make a trip out to the post office when they inevitably leave a "lol, like you think we deliver packages to you" note on the door (if they don't lose it entirely) I might as well tell my local store "order this for me" and come pick it up the next time I'm in. Online shopping is great, but it's not always the best option.
XCaligulaX wrote: This past week I was confronted by the store manager who had never worked during 40k nights before but she made it a ppint to ensure every player present had paid their $5. I told her I come to play but do not participate in the league. She responded by saying I could only play 40k if I payed money regardless.
I'd be you she's misunderstood her manager's instructions.
The OP is paying for store upkeep by buying product.
I agree with some posters. If you are confronted by a store owner in a similar fashion, simply tell them it's money you will not spend on their product.
If the OP is paying for store upkeep by buying product.... then.... err... what's the problem? The OP said the $5 buy in foes to store credit, so if you're buying stuff at the store anyway it should make zero difference.
XCaligulaX wrote: This past week I was confronted by the store manager who had never worked during 40k nights before but she made it a ppint to ensure every player present had paid their $5. I told her I come to play but do not participate in the league. She responded by saying I could only play 40k if I payed money regardless.
I'd be you she's misunderstood her manager's instructions.
I reckon there has been a misunderstanding along the way somewhere because it just seems like a weird situation.
While I don't have a problem with stores charging to use tables, the way the OP describes it just seems like a bat gak stupid way to implement a pay to play system.
Uh, what? This is a pretty significant lack of perspective on the issue, pretty much any other form of entertainment is going to cost more than $5/week.
Some form of entertainment can't be replaced, i mean if i play a sport like football, basketball, ecc and i have to pay for the field that's fair, no one can afford (or have the space) to build his/her personal play field, if i love going to cinema that's fair to pay tickets as watching movies at home is completely different. But a table with some piece of terrain is the same if located in a house or in a store, especially if you typically play casual games with a group of friends. In my area, but i can say in the entire country, miniatures games are not particularly popular and if local stores begin to charge only to allow people to play they would close in a week.
Blackie wrote: Some form of entertainment can't be replaced, i mean if i play a sport like football, basketball, ecc and i have to pay for the field that's fair, no one can afford (or have the space) to build his/her personal play field, if i love going to cinema that's fair to pay tickets as watching movies at home is completely different. But a table with some piece of terrain is the same if located in a house or in a store, especially if you typically play casual games with a group of friends. In my area, but i can say in the entire country, miniatures games are not particularly popular and if local stores begin to charge only to allow people to play they would close in a week.
Why are you talking about "fair" like it means anything? You can choose whether or not the service the store offers is desirable, but it's absurd to say it's "unfair" for the store to charge money for it. And it also doesn't change the fact that $5/week is a trivial amount of money compared to the cost of most other forms of entertainment. Want to go see a movie? You're paying several times that much, and you get fewer hours of entertainment out of it. Go out drinking with friends? $5 is what, one beer, two if you get the cheap stuff? The amount of outrage over the idea of paying $5 to use a store's gaming space is vastly disproportionate to the actual cost.
Blackie wrote: Some form of entertainment can't be replaced, i mean if i play a sport like football, basketball, ecc and i have to pay for the field that's fair, no one can afford (or have the space) to build his/her personal play field, if i love going to cinema that's fair to pay tickets as watching movies at home is completely different. But a table with some piece of terrain is the same if located in a house or in a store, especially if you typically play casual games with a group of friends. In my area, but i can say in the entire country, miniatures games are not particularly popular and if local stores begin to charge only to allow people to play they would close in a week.
Why are you talking about "fair" like it means anything? You can choose whether or not the service the store offers is desirable, but it's absurd to say it's "unfair" for the store to charge money for it. And it also doesn't change the fact that $5/week is a trivial amount of money compared to the cost of most other forms of entertainment. Want to go see a movie? You're paying several times that much, and you get fewer hours of entertainment out of it. Go out drinking with friends? $5 is what, one beer, two if you get the cheap stuff? The amount of outrage over the idea of paying $5 to use a store's gaming space is vastly disproportionate to the actual cost.
I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.What is fair and unfair is subjective, in my opionion 5$/week only to play casual games are too much, because I can play a 40k game at my place or a friend of mine's home without regretting the local store. If you save those 5$/week for some months you can afford your own table/scenario. It's just my opinion though, if you absolutely want to play in a store and consider that tax fair that's your opinion, I respect it completely. In my area nobody charges people only to play in their store, no one would continue playing there anymore if it happens. If I gave the impression to talk about "fair" like it means anything that's only because english isn't my own language, I apology for that, it was not intended.
Blackie wrote: I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion.
Not everyone has a gaming table set up in their home\garage. If you are willing to host a game night, more power to you. But after your buddies empty your fridge, foul your toilet, and fail to put stuff away after using it (assuming someone shows up that you want to play against, no guarantee), you may have a new appreciation for that $5\week charge.
I spoke to the owner of the store via Facebook chat yesterday and he cleared up a few things for me.
He does in fact charge everyone for playing in the store. That includes MTG, Xwing, board gamers, etc. It is a $5/day charge that does go to store credit.
While participation in the league is normally mandatory, he did mention that I would be an exception if I just wanted to play casual games with no league participation but the payment is still mandatory.
I have two issues with paying a minimal charge into store credit. The first is, as I've said, I prefer to purchase a large amount of models at once and paint them all before purchasing more. Tipping a small amount each time just feels awkward to me. As a trader, I honestly just don't like the feeling that I'm basically putting models on "layaway" and every dollar the store is sitting on is another dollar that I can't invest. The second issue is that being in the military, I could PCS at any time and move who knows where. If I have a lot of store credit, I'm basically forced to purchase models that I may not even want just to clear out my credit.
Fortunately for me there are a large number of nearby LGS I can spend my time at which have large play spaces and no charge for table usage. This store has been open for over a decade, I think about 13-14 years so obviously he's figured out what works for him.
Blackie wrote: I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion.
Not everyone has a gaming table set up in their home\garage. If you are willing to host a game night, more power to you. But after your buddies empty your fridge, foul your toilet, and fail to put stuff away after using it (assuming someone shows up that you want to play against, no guarantee), you may have a new appreciation for that $5\week charge.
I don't know a single human being that would behave like that. I don't play tournaments with random people, otherwise I would agree about paying for the competition. Certainly I wouldn't organize games with random people in my place. But when I play a single game with a friend I'm satisfied, that means 90+ min anyway. In an area like mine every player know each other, it's group composed by friends. To be honest we don't have local stores that charge players so it's easier for everyone to meet up a the store actually, but we all own some terrain and scenarios and if the local stores decide to charge with a tax no one would go there anymore, we all agree about that, and the stores' managers know it. Inviting a single friend to your place can't be that big deal, everyone invites friends to their place to have some fun together. If you just want to play a casual game like the guy that started the thread you shouldn't pay for the store's place, that's my opinion.
I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.
Yes, it is. But so is playing at home. It's different than playing at a games store. You meet new people, have different discussions, play armies you've never seen before, maybe even spectate a game rather than playing. Comparing it to the difference between drinking at home with some buddies and going out to a bar is actually a pretty fair comparison.
I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.
Yes, it is. But so is playing at home. It's different than playing at a games store. You meet new people, have different discussions, play armies you've never seen before, maybe even spectate a game rather than playing. Comparing it to the difference between drinking at home with some buddies and going out to a bar is actually a pretty fair comparison.
That's probably beacause you have a lot of players in your area, if we don't text each other and organize a meeting at the store that's the serious risk that you won't find a single player there. Or maybe those 1-2 annoying guys that you don't like to play with. It's uncommon to have more than 6-7 players at the same time here. But as I said before the entire point of view is subjective, in my opinion a game is a game, at home or at the store it's not that different. But I understand if other people think about the opposite.
XCaligulaX wrote:I spoke to the owner of the store via Facebook chat yesterday and he cleared up a few things for me.
He does in fact charge everyone for playing in the store. That includes MTG, Xwing, board gamers, etc. It is a $5/day charge that does go to store credit.
While participation in the league is normally mandatory, he did mention that I would be an exception if I just wanted to play casual games with no league participation but the payment is still mandatory.
I have two issues with paying a minimal charge into store credit. The first is, as I've said, I prefer to purchase a large amount of models at once and paint them all before purchasing more. Tipping a small amount each time just feels awkward to me. As a trader, I honestly just don't like the feeling that I'm basically putting models on "layaway" and every dollar the store is sitting on is another dollar that I can't invest. The second issue is that being in the military, I could PCS at any time and move who knows where. If I have a lot of store credit, I'm basically forced to purchase models that I may not even want just to clear out my credit.
Fortunately for me there are a large number of nearby LGS I can spend my time at which have large play spaces and no charge for table usage. This store has been open for over a decade, I think about 13-14 years so obviously he's figured out what works for him.
While it may work for him, just tell him he lost a customer. Thing is what I don't understand, is why is the store giving people a free pot of paint to play at his store? This makes no sense at all. So if this $5 is just a "store credit", you can pay the $5, play, and at the end of the day take a pot of paint home. So what is he making? OH I get it now. His business model is selling a pot of paint to anyone who plays at his store. That is a weird business model.
"I rather have you buy a pot of paint from me, than have you make big purchases from me".
What ever works for him I guess. You have your answer now. Just shop and play else where. He doesn't care for your business at all.
While it may work for him, just tell him he lost a customer. Thing is what I don't understand, is why is the store giving people a free pot of paint to play at his store? This makes no sense at all. So if this $5 is just a "store credit", you can pay the $5, play, and at the end of the day take a pot of paint home. So what is he making? OH I get it now. His business model is selling a pot of paint to anyone who plays at his store. That is a weird business model.
"I rather have you buy a pot of paint from me, than have you make big purchases from me".
What ever works for him I guess. You have your answer now. Just shop and play else where. He doesn't care for your business at all.
It may sound strange, and it's obviously just anecdotal, but for some reason, every single one of the stores I've been to that charges for use of games tables has been better for it. I've seen the crowds generally improve, better game nights, and higher sales. Yeah, it cost them a few customers up front, but they all more than made up for those few later.
I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't seen it at 3 different stores. There were also two who refused to charge for game space. They had an initial bump in sales/new customers when the other stores began charging for tables, but now one is out of business and the other has cut close to 75% of its inventory and pretty much only sells board games and a few very select RPG lines.
Tycho wrote: the other has cut close to 75% of its inventory and pretty much only sells board games and a few very select RPG lines.
I worry a bit that this is what's happening at the lgs closest to me. Inventory is way down and not being replenished on miniatures of all systems, for a few months now. And I get it, it sucks if that's the case - I honestly wouldn't like losing the store myself. I can think of several people who would probably go in for the "pay to use the tables" scheme if he were to introduce it, I just wouldn't be one of them. At the very least, my visits would cut down to maybe once a month instead of at least once a week, and there are probably others like me. I'd start getting my own table together earlier than planned, and once that was done I wouldn't go to the lgs at all.
Assumptions:
$30/square foot rental charge per year, with 1,000 square feet, comes to $30,000
$2,000 / year for utilities + facilities
$50,000 for operator salary
So $82,000 in base operational cost of keeping the store up and running.
A 1,000 square foot store can comfortably fit say 5 gaming tables.
Let's also say that each table generates an average of $5 per day. That's 5*5=$25 per day. That's roughly $6,000 per year.
So, that would account for roughly 8% of the cost required to stay open.
XCaligulaX wrote: I spoke to the owner of the store via Facebook chat yesterday and he cleared up a few things for me.
He does in fact charge everyone for playing in the store. That includes MTG, Xwing, board gamers, etc. It is a $5/day charge that does go to store credit.
While participation in the league is normally mandatory, he did mention that I would be an exception if I just wanted to play casual games with no league participation but the payment is still mandatory.
I have two issues with paying a minimal charge into store credit. The first is, as I've said, I prefer to purchase a large amount of models at once and paint them all before purchasing more. Tipping a small amount each time just feels awkward to me. As a trader, I honestly just don't like the feeling that I'm basically putting models on "layaway" and every dollar the store is sitting on is another dollar that I can't invest. The second issue is that being in the military, I could PCS at any time and move who knows where. If I have a lot of store credit, I'm basically forced to purchase models that I may not even want just to clear out my credit.
Fortunately for me there are a large number of nearby LGS I can spend my time at which have large play spaces and no charge for table usage. This store has been open for over a decade, I think about 13-14 years so obviously he's figured out what works for him.
Try asking if you can pay for several months up front if you have a big purchase coming up?
$5/day is pretty expensive unless the tables are bloody awesome and lots of space. My local place is $5/day, but it's in Australia where things tend to cost slightly more anyway and the tables are awesome, large and there's tons of space.
But if you've got somewhere else you can go, I suppose go there unless they charge more for models. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marmatag wrote: Does charging for tables make mathematical sense?
Assumptions: $30/square foot rental charge per year, with 1,000 square feet, comes to $30,000 $2,000 / year for utilities + facilities $50,000 for operator salary
So $82,000 in base operational cost of keeping the store up and running.
A 1,000 square foot store can comfortably fit say 5 gaming tables.
Let's also say that each table generates an average of $5 per day. That's 5*5=$25 per day. That's roughly $6,000 per year.
So, that would account for roughly 8% of the cost required to stay open.
Is it realistic that each table generates $5/day?
It depends where you rent. I can see a place near me that's not the busiest location, but still in a group of shops with plenty of parking, 5-10 minute walk to the train station in a suburb of Melbourne. $36,000 (under $30k US and rent is usually more expensive in Australia) for over 3000 sq ft.
I don't know how much the gaming place near me pays, but I think it's in a similarly low foot traffic area with less parking and similar distance to the train station with almost 5000 sq ft. That place probably only gets 3 or 4 people playing on weekdays (at least that I've seen), but it's not open most weekdays (so you have to subtract that from wages) and then weekends and friday night it probably gets 10-ish games going a night and then those people are also buying food and drinks. Occasionally they have events or clubs in where there'd be even more happening.
But it's still only a portion of the revenue. Hobby stores rely on several streams of income to stay afloat. This store also has people in pretty much whenever it's open hanging round painting, buying painting supplies and food/drinks while they do so and also the regular miniature sales on top of that.
It's obviously just a balance though, with all the cranky Americans in this thread disgusted at the idea of paying a few bucks to play a game it'd be a terrible business model, but it seems people out here don't really care if they have to pay $5 to play a few games as long as they're good tables and a good environment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.
It's pretty much exactly the same. If you have a big TV and nice surround sound system going to the movies becomes a waste of money. If you have a nice area to entertain going out for drinks becomes worth less. If you have big rooms which can fit multiple tables, going to a store to play a wargame becomes an avoidable cost.
If you can't fit a 4x8 table in your house and don't have a bunch of awesome terrain and can't fit multiple tables in if you want to play with more than 1 other person.... well.... going to a properly setup gaming venue becomes no less avoidable than going to a pub or a cinema.
That's a really good suggestion Skink, if I really wanted to play there I would just ask him if I can get credit for making large purchases.
I'm happy with the new store I'm going to. I've been in there a few times, and twice I've had games last until after closing time and the owner was nice enough to let us finish the game before closing. That speaks volumes about their dedication to the customer. I was blown away that he wanted us to finish. This store has earned my loyalty. If they are still around after this deployment I'm going to buy my full Catachan GSC army from them.
Blackie wrote: I understand your point but I think you don't understand mine. I can play 40k without a local store, that 5$/week tax is avoidable in my opinion. Watching a movie at home or drinking beers bought at the supermarket in my living room is completely different than going to the cinema or a club/pub.
It's pretty much exactly the same. If you have a big TV and nice surround sound system going to the movies becomes a waste of money. If you have a nice area to entertain going out for drinks becomes worth less. If you have big rooms which can fit multiple tables, going to a store to play a wargame becomes an avoidable cost.
If you can't fit a 4x8 table in your house and don't have a bunch of awesome terrain and can't fit multiple tables in if you want to play with more than 1 other person.... well.... going to a properly setup gaming venue becomes no less avoidable than going to a pub or a cinema.
Exactley, I think it's something completely subjective, I'd prefer playing home if the store decides to charge, but in the same time I'd rather go to the cinema than watching a movie at home, even with a 100 inches 4K TV. I just need a single standard game, 1850 points or lower formats, I don't care about tournaments so in my opinion, according to what i need and what I want, paying 5$ every time I want to play is too much. I usually play in the stores anyway as nobody here charges players, charging people only to play in their stores would instant kill the 40k meta here. Only tournaments have a fee, and I agree about that.
XCaligulaX wrote:I spoke to the owner of the store via Facebook chat yesterday and he cleared up a few things for me.
He does in fact charge everyone for playing in the store. That includes MTG, Xwing, board gamers, etc. It is a $5/day charge that does go to store credit.
While participation in the league is normally mandatory, he did mention that I would be an exception if I just wanted to play casual games with no league participation but the payment is still mandatory.
I have two issues with paying a minimal charge into store credit. The first is, as I've said, I prefer to purchase a large amount of models at once and paint them all before purchasing more. Tipping a small amount each time just feels awkward to me. As a trader, I honestly just don't like the feeling that I'm basically putting models on "layaway" and every dollar the store is sitting on is another dollar that I can't invest. The second issue is that being in the military, I could PCS at any time and move who knows where. If I have a lot of store credit, I'm basically forced to purchase models that I may not even want just to clear out my credit.
Fortunately for me there are a large number of nearby LGS I can spend my time at which have large play spaces and no charge for table usage. This store has been open for over a decade, I think about 13-14 years so obviously he's figured out what works for him.
While it may work for him, just tell him he lost a customer. Thing is what I don't understand, is why is the store giving people a free pot of paint to play at his store? This makes no sense at all. So if this $5 is just a "store credit", you can pay the $5, play, and at the end of the day take a pot of paint home. So what is he making? OH I get it now. His business model is selling a pot of paint to anyone who plays at his store. That is a weird business model.
"I rather have you buy a pot of paint from me, than have you make big purchases from me".
What ever works for him I guess. You have your answer now. Just shop and play else where. He doesn't care for your business at all.
Tha'ts a better business than having a bunch of stuck-up self-entitled brats hanging around and using his tables while never buying anything at all.
A pot of paint>nothing.
Really people, it's 5$ going directly towards store credits.
How can ANYONE complain about this? you actually DO get to play for free under the assumption that you ever buy there.
If you buy there-you get store credits (heck, you can probably even trade store credits to a friend for money, just buy for him and he pays you back-in case you got nothing to buy and HAVE to spend the credit)
If you literally never buy anything-why on freaking earth do you think the FLGS owes you a place to play?
Heck, 5$ NOT going towards store credits and just being payment is well reasonable if they provide high quality tables.
Quite honestly, you people and your attitude is disgusting, and had I been running a store, I'd much prefer not having you there.
Forget costing me money by demanding service for free, you are polluting the community mentality and probably causing others to be more stingy about their money as well.
You are, for all intents and purposes, a negative value. the place is better off without you. (I'd refrain from stronger words, but I certainly have several at mind.)
Lots of FLGS don't ask people some money to play in their stores, in my area no one would do something like that.
They all have 2-5 tables and some scenario, typically nice stuff but built years ago, made by people who built it for fun ed usually donated to the store by players that quit from gaming. Having some people around that buy something, even occasionally, is still a good form of business. Having some kids that watch a 40k match can convince those children to start the hobby and to buy items in that store. It also helps to maintain a certain number of players in the area so some tournaments can be organized, and they come with a fee and we're all ok about that. In my area only card games are very popular so if FLGS have some miniatures players around it's only for their benefit. I also have to report that some of our best stores also have their online store with the most competitive prices, so actually having players around really helps their business.
Another Game Store I went to a couple of times (the distance killed any recurring frequency) had a front store and an aft game section. Couple of wargames tables, a few shelves with terrain, a few spare tables for card games or board games.
Once you bought something game-related, and to a minimum of 10 euros I believe, you could go in the back. Your receipt (with the date and time of purchase) was the entry ticket, so to speak. When you left the gaming area to go to the vending machine across the street, you could just go back in, no problem. If you stayed away for a more signifficant amount of time you'd be considered having left the gaming area. When you got in the back you had your receipt marked with a pen by the staff or the owner. This way they kept track who had been in the game area.
No extra charge to game. No buying just a 50 cents item to game. Not really an exorbitant amount to but yourself into the game area, to my opinion.
Tha'ts a better business than having a bunch of stuck-up self-entitled brats hanging around and using his tables while never buying anything at all.
A pot of paint>nothing.
Really people, it's 5$ going directly towards store credits.
How can ANYONE complain about this? you actually DO get to play for free under the assumption that you ever buy there.
If you buy there-you get store credits (heck, you can probably even trade store credits to a friend for money, just buy for him and he pays you back-in case you got nothing to buy and HAVE to spend the credit)
If you literally never buy anything-why on freaking earth do you think the FLGS owes you a place to play?
Heck, 5$ NOT going towards store credits and just being payment is well reasonable if they provide high quality tables.
Quite honestly, you people and your attitude is disgusting, and had I been running a store, I'd much prefer not having you there.
Forget costing me money by demanding service for free, you are polluting the community mentality and probably causing others to be more stingy about their money as well.
You are, for all intents and purposes, a negative value. the place is better off without you. (I'd refrain from stronger words, but I certainly have several at mind.)
So because someone prefers to support the store via actual purchases instead of putting $5 on hold every week they are disgusting and a detriment to the community? Please tell me more about how people with different views are evil, Mr. Trump.
The only detrimental person here is you. We're having a civil discussion without any personal attacks and you come in spouting vitriol. Certainly there is a more civil way to express your opinion other than berating strangers on the internet.
Has anyone ever factored out how much of FNM entry fee's are kept by their LGS? I used to go to one that would have 16+ people every FNM, and they'd keep 50%. The other 50% would go towards boosters as prizes for the top 4 players.
Doesn't seem like much, but once you really look at it that's an additional $4,000 per year the store is bringing in just for smartly working the FNM system.
Not sure how much they made off Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, etc. (This was back in 2008, and they did not support any non TCG's)
What I'm getting at is your store may actually already be charging people, but in an indirect manner.
Tha'ts a better business than having a bunch of stuck-up self-entitled brats hanging around and using his tables while never buying anything at all.
Yeah okay, except for the thing that's been noted several times - full tables brings more interest. It's up to the owner how they want to run their business, but if people aren't playing at the tables, it looks more like a sad wasteland.
Really people, it's 5$ going directly towards store credits.
How can ANYONE complain about this? you actually DO get to play for free under the assumption that you ever buy there.
If you buy there-you get store credits (heck, you can probably even trade store credits to a friend for money, just buy for him and he pays you back-in case you got nothing to buy and HAVE to spend the credit)
If you literally never buy anything-why on freaking earth do you think the FLGS owes you a place to play?
I don't think anyone has talked about being owed anything - so that's a logical fallacy.
Heck, 5$ NOT going towards store credits and just being payment is well reasonable if they provide high quality tables.
We don't know the quality, and that's purely opinion.
Quite honestly, you people and your attitude is disgusting, and had I been running a store, I'd much prefer not having you there.
Forget costing me money by demanding service for free, you are polluting the community mentality and probably causing others to be more stingy about their money as well.
You are, for all intents and purposes, a negative value. the place is better off without you. (I'd refrain from stronger words, but I certainly have several at mind.)
This is the best part. All possibility of civil discussion breaks down here. Calling people disgusting, claiming they're demanding a service (news flash - most lgs that DON'T charge are in fact OFFERING the service, so the order of operations is a little skewed there - and people who don't want to pay to play aren't going to the owners and demanding anything, they're instead wishing the service was offered - there's a difference), claiming they're a "negative value" to your hypothetical store that you'd actively be driving people away from apparently. Sorry, but this level of toxicity is much worse for the community than anybody saying "Hey you know what, I'd rather not be forced to pay for table use but I'm happy to buy things from the store regardless."
This is perfectly within his right to do so. In addition, since this is a League, I say that the League itself has no problems (tournaments are always good for encouraging a local community).
That said, I think this kind of thinking is short sighted and ultimately damning for the owner for not having the option of a "free play" area. Money is always a barrier, even if the cost is reasonable and you do get something more in return. A common fallacy for store owners hurting for money is that they need to pass the charge of the store space onto the customer directly via making you pay to use it. This is a poor idea because if you opened up a small space, any space, for "free play", it's essentially advertising for your merch in your store. What you lose in that floor space you make up in volume of sales in other areas.
I live near toronto and most of the stores within the downtown area, instead of charging you for the floor space, instead offer refreshments (pop, snacks and, rarely, full meals). These are, of course, marked up much more than if you ran across the street for a burger, but the convenience is what draws people in (especially if you know the traffic situation in downtown toronto, most people would rather spend 3 bucks more on a pop than having to brave that traffic nightmare) and everyone is fully aware of it. In addition, some of the shops will stock a game that they didn't before if they see someone coming in with it and it draws enough attention. Fundamentally the net result is the same, but a lot more people are willing to open their wallets when you give them a fair choice rather than try to impose fees on them. In addition, in such a situation there are often much more people paying than those that are not, and with careful balancing of prices this can, on average, cover the cost even for non-payers.
As for proof how this works, most of these FLGS I go to have been in business for a third of a decade at least now (this is only the duration for which I've known them, I don't know exactly how long they've operated) whereas most stores of this type generally would consider themselves lucky to last past a year or two, so they are doing something right. I would suggest proposing the "refreshments" idea to your LGS to see if it takes. I fully believe that is a much better practice for businesses and everyone benefits in the long run.
Why are we having name calling again for having differing opinions? So because we live in different cultures have different ideas, it's ok to start calling people "entitled" or what not and labeling an entire country with one brush is just wrong. Just respect that we all have differing opinions. That is what makes us humans and let's us live in societies where we are allowed to have differing opinions. Why does it come down to, "you think differently than I, you are an what ever word".
Remember we all live in different parts of the world. What is the norm for you may not be the norm for other people. So why are we instilling people's values and opinions on others now? How come we have to degrade ourselves to name calling?
If it's in humour, I don't see it. If it's in jest, I don't see it. Let's just respect each other for having differing opinions and cultures.
If the $5 is going towards store credit, the owner has a brilliant loyalty program. Think, if 10 guys show up over the course of the day, to play he's made a sale. Guaranteed. No risk. If some of those guys also buy something, he's made two sales. That said, I'd be quite willing to pay $5 per day as a "rental" fee for the tables, with nothing in return for it. I'd value that space, and the business that's being run there. The owner needs to look at his customers as living wallets. If he doesn't, he won't be in business, and there will be nowhere to play. Waive the fee if someone buys $20 or more worth of product, sure, but a fee is perfectly reasonable.
Personally, I play in a garage. I used to play at my place, but a friend now has a nice garage we can play in, so we play there now. I've never been much of a FLGS player, but I was always fortunate enough to have a group of friends to play with. I haven't spent serious money on 40k in a long time. I used to buy from the GW in London, Ontario, but I'm not happy with 40k these days, so I've stopped spending.
That said, if I was still playing there, I think they'd have every reason to make me pay something to play there, since I rarely buy anything at all, much less a major purchase. That forced $5 a week, say, especially if it was towards store credit, would likely have loosened my purse strings.
To the people that think this is outrageous, and that this is the straw that would break your back, you're likely not the type of valuable customer the proprietor is looking for. Consistent cash flow is what keeps most businesses running. You might buy in bulk, but that doesn't help him in the rest of the lean months.
Playing once per week, costs $260 per year. Assuming you go 52 times in a year, and you're getting store credit, that would give you a solid "starter army", or an allied detachment, including codex, some paint, and a couple brushes. Like, a "start collecting" box, plus another unit, maybe two, and the other supplies to get started. The year after, you could expand that into a solid, playable force. That's what an LGS owner would be looking for in an ideal customer, and it seems like a brilliant way to ensure customer loyalty to the store. Times however many regulars are coming in. If you've got 10 regulars, those people are putting $2600 into your pocket every year, and you're probably making a profit of $1000 off of those people. Plus the 30 or so players that pop in 2 or 3 times a month, so let's say $150 from each of them over the year is another $4500, of which you'd see $1800 in gross profit. I'd bet that making $2800 in reliable gross profit from a single "line" of product would be golden for a store that probably runs primarily off of CCG sales.
If you want your business to thrive, long term, you need to make a plan that works, long term.
One thought on the matter: People don't appreciate free. When someone gets something for free, they treat it as if it has no value (that's why it's free), either to them or to the person offering it.
If you charge a table fee, even a negligible one, it's going to sit in the back of the user's mind that someone values the table and terrain enough to charge good money for its use. Therefore it has a value and should be treated with respect.
Obviously this isn't universal, but it's a tendency I've noticed over time. Additionally, people who have paid for the use of the space are more likely to act respectfully, because if they get the boot they've effectively lost money.
As for the OP's example, I think it's an extremely reasonable arrangement, it's just one that doesn't work for the OP because of personal habits/circumstances.
Fine, I accept that I have went slightly overboard with my reaction there.
Does not change the fact that I am right, and under the assumption that you are an actual costumer that buys in the shop the 5$ fee that goes towards credits equals free anyway, because its money you would have spent in said shop anyway.
Also does not change the fact that if you do not buy in that shop, you are a non-costumer and letting you play without charging anything is a losing prospect and the only reason a shop should even consider it is if the attendance is SO LOW that the money earned by charging is negligible and they simply HAVE to generate bigger traffic to increase sales.
Putting it this way-I'm not wrong, I'm just an arsehole (yep, I fully admit I'm a jerk about 70% of the time. not gonna appologise for being one though, as I've found during my life that not being a jerk leads directly to people walking over me and expecting me to serve them as if I owe them anything.)
BoomWolf wrote: Fine, I accept that I have went slightly overboard with my reaction there.
Does not change the fact that I am right, and under the assumption that you are an actual costumer that buys in the shop the 5$ fee that goes towards credits equals free anyway, because its money you would have spent in said shop anyway.
Also does not change the fact that if you do not buy in that shop, you are a non-costumer and letting you play without charging anything is a losing prospect and the only reason a shop should even consider it is if the attendance is SO LOW that the money earned by charging is negligible and they simply HAVE to generate bigger traffic to increase sales.
Putting it this way-I'm not wrong, I'm just an arsehole (yep, I fully admit I'm a jerk about 70% of the time. not gonna appologise for being one though, as I've found during my life that not being a jerk leads directly to people walking over me and expecting me to serve them as if I owe them anything.)
I guess this needs to be repeated again: Almost no one here is saying they don't buy in their lgs, the only discussion is about charging for table use. I buy things from my lgs, but would stop going if I had to pay to use their tables.
This is an interesting dilemma because the money paid in to using the tables in this one specific situation goes to store credit, but I still don't like that, either. I see it as securing business, but not earning it.
You're still not factually right, you just have an opinion.
To the people that think this is outrageous, and that this is the straw that would break your back, you're likely not the type of valuable customer the proprietor is looking for. Consistent cash flow is what keeps most businesses running. You might buy in bulk, but that doesn't help him in the rest of the lean months.
Playing once per week, costs $260 per year. Assuming you go 52 times in a year, and you're getting store credit, that would give you a solid "starter army", or an allied detachment, including codex, some paint, and a couple brushes. Like, a "start collecting" box, plus another unit, maybe two, and the other supplies to get started. The year after, you could expand that into a solid, playable force. That's what an LGS owner would be looking for in an ideal customer, and it seems like a brilliant way to ensure customer loyalty to the store. Times however many regulars are coming in. If you've got 10 regulars, those people are putting $2600 into your pocket every year, and you're probably making a profit of $1000 off of those people. Plus the 30 or so players that pop in 2 or 3 times a month, so let's say $150 from each of them over the year is another $4500, of which you'd see $1800 in gross profit. I'd bet that making $2800 in reliable gross profit from a single "line" of product would be golden for a store that probably runs primarily off of CCG sales.
Okay, so it's better for the store owner to get $260 over the course of a year, that gets used to buy a starter force or equivalent, than it is to get a bulk purchase of over $500 or more? (Just throwing a number out there, that's about what I expect to spend when I start a new army). I've spent over $2,000 at my lgs in the past year, if they started charging for tables, yeah, that amount would change to 0 for the upcoming year pretty fast.
BoomWolf wrote: Fine, I accept that I have went slightly overboard with my reaction there.
Does not change the fact that I am right, and under the assumption that you are an actual costumer that buys in the shop the 5$ fee that goes towards credits equals free anyway, because its money you would have spent in said shop anyway.
Also does not change the fact that if you do not buy in that shop, you are a non-costumer and letting you play without charging anything is a losing prospect and the only reason a shop should even consider it is if the attendance is SO LOW that the money earned by charging is negligible and they simply HAVE to generate bigger traffic to increase sales.
Putting it this way-I'm not wrong, I'm just an arsehole (yep, I fully admit I'm a jerk about 70% of the time. not gonna appologise for being one though, as I've found during my life that not being a jerk leads directly to people walking over me and expecting me to serve them as if I owe them anything.)
The store is entitled to charge for gaming tables.
People are entitled to go elsewhere if the table charge bothers them.
The store could start charging $5 for the table for a day of use, and in response, a patron could stop going to the store. Both parties would be completely justified in this example.
It's a similar concept to a cover charge to get into a bar. Even a $5 cover charge rubs us filthy Americans the wrong way.
My personal stance is that "having space" isn't "providing a service."
If money is such an issue and you don't benefit from having tables in your store, rent a smaller space with no tables at all, and save a ton of money. Out here, space is expensive in populated areas.
Let's look at it this way. Let's say you want to have 5 tables in your store, and that you need the base 6x4 + a foot on each side for people to stand. that's 7x5 or 35 square feet devoted to a table. So, you're paying $5000-$6500 in California per year for those tables space. We've already demonstrated it'd be theoretically possible if each table was generating money every single day that this would cover that cost, but in reality it probably wouldn't.
So ask yourself:
If renting the extra space to have tables is already a losing proposition, and the store owner gets no value but what he can charge for the tables, why have them?
Jacksmiles wrote: Okay, so it's better for the store owner to get $260 over the course of a year, that gets used to buy a starter force or equivalent, than it is to get a bulk purchase of over $500 or more? (Just throwing a number out there, that's about what I expect to spend when I start a new army). I've spent over $2,000 at my lgs in the past year, if they started charging for tables, yeah, that amount would change to 0 for the upcoming year pretty fast.
Overall, it's best for the store to have customers that spend money regularly. One of the big problems with operating a business is cash flow. For example, the owner has a far easier life if a customer spends $100 every month than if he shows up in September and buys $1200 worth of stuff, because there are bills that have to be paid every month. Obviously a retailer should be happy with all sales, but they'll be the MOST happy and healthy with regular sales.
Marmatag wrote: It's a similar concept to a cover charge to get into a bar. Even a $5 cover charge rubs us filthy Americans the wrong way.
As filthy as you Americans are, no argument there Even in Australia the land of overpriced stuff I don't go to bars that have a cover charge
My personal stance is that "having space" isn't "providing a service."
No, but filling it with tables is
If renting the extra space to have tables is already a losing proposition, and the store owner gets no value but what he can charge for the tables, why have them?
Because you're trying to build a community to support your store. You could be doing it for free, but if your patrons are willing to pay then that can work too.
The same way a pub might have a pool table that costs $2 a game, it might make $6 an hour by itself while people are playing, but then has the added benefit of keeping people in the pub where they end up buying food and drinks. Of course if they DON'T, you've still made $6.
Tables are the same.
Also I still think your maths is flawed. I feel like you're assuming you're just going to rent another store in an area that charges the exact same per sq ft, but in reality when a hobby store wants to get bigger they tend to move to a place that's cheaper per sq ft. They might be paying more or they might be paying less, it's something you have to weigh up depending on the specific store.
I've chatted to the guy who owns the local hobby shop, he moved from a high foot traffic area near the train station to a spot with less foot traffic, no where near a train station, better parking and 3 times the floor space for less money. He did it because after being in the old place for years he discovered he was making very little money from walk ins or people coming by train and needed more space for stock. Even though he was in a heavy foot traffic area before he found most his sales were from people who found his website, found him on google maps or already knew of his store.
It's all a balancing act and what's going to work in one place might not be feasible in another.
Also you're talking about a place with 5 tables. The places I've seen to have 10+ tables, enough so that they can hold proper events and don't have to have a "40k night" once a month because they have enough space that a few people can be playing 40k and a few people can be playing KoW while another group is having an X-wing tournament.
I think shops can jump on to the pay to play thing when they notice clubs are already paying money to rent out spaces and then spending hours setting up and packing up each time, where instead they could pay a similar or slightly larger amount of money to a hobby shop and all the tables are already set up. I think if clubs tend to meet in their homes and people in the area are so averse to paying for stuff then it's probably not going to be a working business model.
Jacksmiles wrote: Okay, so it's better for the store owner to get $260 over the course of a year, that gets used to buy a starter force or equivalent, than it is to get a bulk purchase of over $500 or more? (Just throwing a number out there, that's about what I expect to spend when I start a new army). I've spent over $2,000 at my lgs in the past year, if they started charging for tables, yeah, that amount would change to 0 for the upcoming year pretty fast.
Overall, it's best for the store to have customers that spend money regularly. One of the big problems with operating a business is cash flow. For example, the owner has a far easier life if a customer spends $100 every month than if he shows up in September and buys $1200 worth of stuff, because there are bills that have to be paid every month. Obviously a retailer should be happy with all sales, but they'll be the MOST happy and healthy with regular sales.
I realize that there's monthly payments, but I find it interesting that it would be preferable to have an equivalent amount of money spread out instead of all at once. I would have figured it would be fine either way, because whatever profit comes out of those sales is equal and still goes to the store, and at the end of the year it has the same amount from those sale. I've never run a business, though, so this line of conversation is just a learning experience for me.
If a shop had 10 tables and was holding events, I would absolutely say charge, because effort is going into maintaining that kind of stuff.
If someone is charging you $5 to roll out your mat and set up your terrain, that dog won't hunt.
My lgs has 13 wargaming tables and a ton of terrain. They charge for monthly events but not open play, and charging for events makes sense 100% to me, especially as there's prize support.
If anything you want the money early on so it earns interest.
In reality you often get sales close to the end of the financial year because stores are trying to clear stuff out quicker (at least that happens out here).
I think its a little fair, kinda sucks but its understandable. I usually try to pay for the space by buying any concessions that they have available or by buying a little something like a paint bottle or glue. They don't make any money unless you spend some money.
I realize that there's monthly payments, but I find it interesting that it would be preferable to have an equivalent amount of money spread out instead of all at once. I would have figured it would be fine either way, because whatever profit comes out of those sales is equal and still goes to the store, and at the end of the year it has the same amount from those sale. I've never run a business, though, so this line of conversation is just a learning experience for me.
Others have correctly pointed out that many stores do the bulk of their business in Nov-Dec and run at loss or near loss the rest of the time. This is more common with larger businesses (chains), who have proper financing; IOW they borrow money from a bank throughout the year to make a profit in the Christmas rush. Your FLGS probably can't operate on that model because their sales volume just isn't high enough - the bank assumes a lot of risk and if the FLGS has a bad December, they're out a lot of money - established chains of stores generally have a more reliable cash flow. This is a huge problem for small businesses (not just FLGSs) and often people have to use their homes as collateral (or mortgage them).
The store will do fine IF the sporadic customer spending is well spaced. Buying $200 of stuff in February and then $1000 of stuff in November leaves them really dry on funds through April to October. Ideally other customers are similarly erratic and they cover each other's dry spells. I imagine October is a crap month because everyone is waiting for Black Friday or Boxing Week to roll around.
What that $5 store credit does, for most customers, is provide a pseudo-discount on store product. Looked at from another angle, they're charging you $5 to play on league night, but also giving you $5 discount on your next item. The store gets a small steady cash-flow, and the customer can recoup that money in the form of a discount on store product. The store ends up a bit ahead (because they buy wholesale), but they've (hopefully) successfully instilled a pattern of frequently buying, because the store credit 'coupon' is floating around in people's wallets reminding them to buy something.
BoomWolf wrote: Fine, I accept that I have went slightly overboard with my reaction there.
Does not change the fact that I am right, and under the assumption that you are an actual costumer that buys in the shop the 5$ fee that goes towards credits equals free anyway, because its money you would have spent in said shop anyway.
Also does not change the fact that if you do not buy in that shop, you are a non-costumer and letting you play without charging anything is a losing prospect and the only reason a shop should even consider it is if the attendance is SO LOW that the money earned by charging is negligible and they simply HAVE to generate bigger traffic to increase sales.
Putting it this way-I'm not wrong, I'm just an arsehole (yep, I fully admit I'm a jerk about 70% of the time. not gonna appologise for being one though, as I've found during my life that not being a jerk leads directly to people walking over me and expecting me to serve them as if I owe them anything.)
I guess this needs to be repeated again: Almost no one here is saying they don't buy in their lgs, the only discussion is about charging for table use. I buy things from my lgs, but would stop going if I had to pay to use their tables.
This is an interesting dilemma because the money paid in to using the tables in this one specific situation goes to store credit, but I still don't like that, either. I see it as securing business, but not earning it.
You're still not factually right, you just have an opinion.
I am not factually right?
You pay for the table, you get equal store credits, you later buy at the shop at SOME point-getting a "discount" equal to the amount of store credits you got from renting tables.
EFFECTIVLY, you spent the same amount of moeny overall as if you did not pay for the tables at all-ergo, as long you are a customer the tables are technically free.
Given you spent 260$ (not a lot in miniature world) once a year, you can play once a week without actually playing for tables still.
Jacksmiles wrote:[Okay, so it's better for the store owner to get $260 over the course of a year, that gets used to buy a starter force or equivalent, than it is to get a bulk purchase of over $500 or more? (Just throwing a number out there, that's about what I expect to spend when I start a new army). I've spent over $2,000 at my lgs in the past year, if they started charging for tables, yeah, that amount would change to 0 for the upcoming year pretty fast.
I fully agree. If my shop started charging me to play at his table I would shop else where but just play there. Yesterday is a perfect example. I some minis and paints yesterday at his store. It was over $150. Then I had a game. If I had to pay to play at his table, then I would have shopped else where I would have paid a lot less than the $150+ I spent. What is the percentages they get? 40% 50% or more off buying from GW or the distributor? Let's say 50% in this case. If my store wanted $5 from me or the $75 he got?
I get no discounts from him. I can if I go else where. Thing is, I choose to shop there and pay more so I can get games in. I am sure if we always had to pay the crowds would be less, and a lot of use would be shopping else where and getting discounts. This is how we are supporting this store. By buying and ordering from HIM and not going else where.
It is blowing me away people keep saying you need to pay. So a store rather have $5 from us instead of the hundreds or thousands that we spend in a year then? Yeah that makes great business sense.
Whats blowing me away is that some guys like you keep missing the point that had you been buying things from the shop like the 150$ you said you spent, than you do NOT pay for the table, because the table fee goes directly to store credit, therefor the only people actually PAYING anything, are those who play, yet never buy anything.
BoomWolf wrote: Whats blowing me away is that some guys like you keep missing the point that had you been buying things from the shop like the 150$ you said you spent, than you do NOT pay for the table, because the table fee goes directly to store credit, therefor the only people actually PAYING anything, are those who play, yet never buy anything.
I think if you look at it in the larger question in general, charging for tables, that's not as palatable as "table fees become store credit," that is very fair.
BoomWolf wrote:Whats blowing me away is that some guys like you keep missing the point that had you been buying things from the shop like the 150$ you said you spent, than you do NOT pay for the table, because the table fee goes directly to store credit, therefor the only people actually PAYING anything, are those who play, yet never buy anything.
What on earth are you talking about? We are buying from the shop. How come you keep saying we don't buy from the shop or "had you been buying things from the shop" We are spending money at the shop. Hundreds if not thousands of dollars. So why do you keep say we don't buy from the shop?
BoomWolf wrote:Whats blowing me away is that some guys like you keep missing the point that had you been buying things from the shop like the 150$ you said you spent, than you do NOT pay for the table, because the table fee goes directly to store credit, therefor the only people actually PAYING anything, are those who play, yet never buy anything.
What on earth are you talking about? We are buying from the shop. How come you keep saying we don't buy from the shop or "had you been buying things from the shop" We are spending money at the shop. Hundreds if not thousands of dollars. So why do you keep say we don't buy from the shop?
Then what's the problem? Sounds like your table space is paid for. Just think about it like handing over $5 here or there to get $5 discounts on the big purchases you make when you go in to buy stuff.
I really don't see the issue of paying for table space, especially if you get it back in store credit immediately. If you don't like it, then don't play there. No reason to act like it's some kind of personal insult.
BoomWolf wrote:Whats blowing me away is that some guys like you keep missing the point that had you been buying things from the shop like the 150$ you said you spent, than you do NOT pay for the table, because the table fee goes directly to store credit, therefor the only people actually PAYING anything, are those who play, yet never buy anything.
What on earth are you talking about? We are buying from the shop. How come you keep saying we don't buy from the shop or "had you been buying things from the shop" We are spending money at the shop. Hundreds if not thousands of dollars. So why do you keep say we don't buy from the shop?
Then what's the problem? Sounds like your table space is paid for. Just think about it like handing over $5 here or there to get $5 discounts on the big purchases you make when you go in to buy stuff.
I really don't see the issue of paying for table space, especially if you get it back in store credit immediately. If you don't like it, then don't play there. No reason to act like it's some kind of personal insult.
No one is acting insulted. We're just speaking matter-of-factly. I don't want to have to make a purchase in the future in order to get use out of that table fee. I'd rather keep the money now and spend it if/when I actually want to. I also wouldn't play at a place that charges for table use.
Than you are being awefully petty towards the FLGS owner, who is more than likely struggling to keep up the bills, by the fact you consider something that minor as a free-to-credit system (that practically means customers play free and non-customers pay a really small fee to begin with) to be an issue.
FLGS is not really a way to get rich. People with your mentaity is the reason so many of them break down and close, and then there isn't ANYWHERE to play (other than some guy's house, but that really suboptimal)
Well I think it depends on you local area mostly, in my country I've never heard about stores that charges for playing. We don't have a massive 40k community but in my city (120.000 inhabitants) the local store opened more than 15 years ago, and still there. Whitin 30-40 minutes by car there are at least three other stores like that one. They all charge players when they organize tournaments or special events, but not casual games, and we're all ok about that.
Customers are not a charity of local stores, if they think that stores don't offer a worthy service you can't blame them if they decide to have fun elsewhere or abandon the hobby.
I like 40k, I prefer the hobby part than gaming to be honest but I also play, and I don't think that paying 200+ dollars a year only for playing casual matches is worthy, if it happens I'll play somewhere else or something else. If you think it's a fair tax instead I can't blame you, it's your opinion and I respect it completely, but please respect other people ones.
If some place have a strong 40k community and a store provides a very cool gaming area with 10+ tables and amazing scenarios (but really good stuff I mean) then asking a small amount of money even for non competitive games could be fair. In my area there's nothing like that, stores mostly rely on card gamers so they typically have 3-5 tables for miniatures players. A lot of kids usually watch miniature games and maybe some of them would start the hobby, like I did many years ago. In a country like mine where only 20% of the people (at most) buy on line this is a good promotion for the store actually.
So, what's the alternative? If having shops running free gaming venues isn't viable, what do gamers in the US do? It seems that setting up a non-commercial club isn't as easy as in the UK, so is it back to playing in each others' houses? In that case, how do you get new gamers without the advertising of a shopfront? School clubs are a thing here, what about over there?
Or is the whole thing doomed in the long term? Should the guys at Wyrd, Privateer Press, Reaper, Old Glory et al make their money now and get out quick?
Around here, there's a venue that opened up a few years ago in an old snooker hall. It has a shop area, sells hot and cold snacks and charges £3 per person per day for a gaming table. Hours are usually 12 noon until 10pm. They're doing well, although they're in a smaller city roughly equidistant from Glasgow , Edinburgh, Perth and the rest of the Central Belt.
AndrewGPaul wrote: So, what's the alternative? If having shops running free gaming venues isn't viable, what do gamers in the US do?
They can play home or accept to pay a fee for casual games. I'm not blaming pepole that consider paying 5$/week (or whatever shops ask them to pay) fair and right, I mentioned before that I completely respect that. Especially if there are a lot of players in that area and beautiful scenarios provided by those stores. But if someone doesn't want to pay to play casual games can't be branded as someone that ruins stores business and cancel 40k from their area. I'd rather quit from playing in stores than paying 200ish$/year and continue playing in the store, and I'd like other people to respect it.
BoomWolf wrote:Than you are being awefully petty towards the FLGS owner, who is more than likely struggling to keep up the bills, by the fact you consider something that minor as a free-to-credit system (that practically means customers play free and non-customers pay a really small fee to begin with) to be an issue.
FLGS is not really a way to get rich. People with your mentaity is the reason so many of them break down and close, and then there isn't ANYWHERE to play (other than some guy's house, but that really suboptimal)
Who is being petty? We are supporting the store by making the purchases. We are helping them to pay the bills by not shopping else where were we could save money but we decide to pay full price so he has our business. So who is being petty here?
Again. I am spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars. So if I pay for a table, I have all right to shop else where to get a discount and play at his store because I paid the $5 fee. So again, this struggling store rather have my $5 instead of the hundreds or thousand I spend?
Also why are you calling people names now or labelling people for having a differing opinion than you? After all someone said this is not a charity. So why are we paying full price to a store when we can go else where? In this case the store is the charity. So why do we have to support this store then? Yes we are paying full price but yet we are the petty ones?
Remember rule number one. Be polite. We respect your opinion, please respect ours.
Again. I am spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars. So if I pay for a table, I have all right to shop else where to get a discount and play at his store because I paid the $5 fee. So again, this struggling store rather have my $5 instead of the hundreds or thousand I spend?
So let me see if I understand this... You clearly comprehend the concept of "buy where you play" - so I can only assume that you would frown upon a person using table space without buying anything from a store. We're agreed on this, yes?
Okay, so extrapolating from there, let's assume that there is some time period X after making a purchase of size ($ amount) Y, where it is no longer "polite" to continue using table space. For example, you wouldn't buy a single $50 model and then expect to use the store's tables day-in and day-out for the rest of the year without buying anything else. Certainly, we can agree that this is a bit rude (breaking the spirit of the "buy-where-you-play" rule, at least).
So we're now assuming that in order not to feel guilty (and not get nasty looks from the store owner) you are making regular purchases. You said this yourself, in any case.
Then let's say that you're spending at least $150 each month. It seems pretty reasonable that you would be able to come in any day and use table space without worrying.
Which brings me to the question; how is this so substantially different than what the OP described that you have such a problem with it? That is, $150 a month in purchases along with the implication that you are entitled to the table space is not financially that different from spending $5 to play every single day of the month (~30 days), then getting a $150 purchase for free at the end of the month. Ultimately, since it's all going to the same pot (aka store credit), you're not losing anything by paying the table fee, assuming what you said about making regular purchases is indeed true. The only difference is that people who are not making regular purchases are now contributing to the store.
Ok, I'll drop politeness for a moment there because I honestly can't find a polite way to say this.
Are you seriously that THICK that you can't grasp the concept that having the table free grant store credits means people who actually DO buy stuff in the store DONT pay for the table becuase the finite amount you pay for the same product and service is IDENTICAL to that if the table had no fee to begin with?
Seriously. this is not rocket science, this is not even gradeschool calculus, this is simple logic.
I pay 5$ for table fee, get 5 store credit, then when I buy at the store rather than paying 200$ I'm paying 195 and the 5 store credits I got for the table.
End result, I paid a total of 200$ for the model I got and the table. how is it, in any fathomable way, different than the table being free to begin with?
THAT is why I say you are petty. because you somehow have an issue with the fact that people who DONT shop are required to pay table fee, while people who DO shop are not actually required to pay table fee, as they get their money back when they shop-for them the fee is no more than a formality and does not actually cost anything.
Who did ever talked about store credits? That would be a complete different story. I meant that I wouldn't pay only for gaming, but if you do so and grant a store credit then you're paying not only for gaming but also for the miniatures/supplies.
I understand that there are some (a lot?) people that play without shopping at the store, but maybe if you charge the tables those people would play elsewhere and the gaming area would have its number of players reduced. And consequently some regular shoppers could decide to play (and to shop) elsewhere because the meta has become poor in that store. Having a lot of gamers around a store it's actually a benefit, even if only half of them usually buy items there.
Granting credits can be a solution but if a store closes it's because of the poor business skills owned by the manager/employes or because that kind of business is not particularly attractive in that specific area. A customer invests his/her money where he/her likes, if a service is not considered worthy of their money you can't blame them.
I'm not a worshipper that throws his money in what he adores, I like 40k but I won't spend more than I think it's appropriate to pay in order to continue the hobby. If it becomes more expensive, I'll drop it, or keep it on hold. But I wouldn't spend more money only because miniature games are not a solid business for some stores and I feel obliged to help them.
I totally agree about paying for the table and getting a store credit, assuming of course that those credits must be cumulative, but I won't pay for miniatures/supplies AND the access to the gaming area.
Again. I am spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars. So if I pay for a table, I have all right to shop else where to get a discount and play at his store because I paid the $5 fee. So again, this struggling store rather have my $5 instead of the hundreds or thousand I spend?
So let me see if I understand this... You clearly comprehend the concept of "buy where you play" - so I can only assume that you would frown upon a person using table space without buying anything from a store. We're agreed on this, yes?
Okay, so extrapolating from there, let's assume that there is some time period X after making a purchase of size ($ amount) Y, where it is no longer "polite" to continue using table space. For example, you wouldn't buy a single $50 model and then expect to use the store's tables day-in and day-out for the rest of the year without buying anything else. Certainly, we can agree that this is a bit rude (breaking the spirit of the "buy-where-you-play" rule, at least).
So we're now assuming that in order not to feel guilty (and not get nasty looks from the store owner) you are making regular purchases. You said this yourself, in any case.
Then let's say that you're spending at least $150 each month. It seems pretty reasonable that you would be able to come in any day and use table space without worrying.
Which brings me to the question; how is this so substantially different than what the OP described that you have such a problem with it? That is, $150 a month in purchases along with the implication that you are entitled to the table space is not financially that different from spending $5 to play every single day of the month (~30 days), then getting a $150 purchase for free at the end of the month. Ultimately, since it's all going to the same pot (aka store credit), you're not losing anything by paying the table fee, assuming what you said about making regular purchases is indeed true. The only difference is that people who are not making regular purchases are now contributing to the store.
How is it different? It's different because the shop is "forcing" a sale on you then. Either you charge for the table or don't. Don't use it as an excuse "you get a credit". Basically what the shop owner is saying, "You need to buy a pot of paint from me to play". Simple as that. I actually wouldn't have any qualms if that is what is said instead of using and excuse to hide the fact of what he is doing. Nobody should be forced to buy a pot of paint to play.
The way I see it I am not getting a discount. I am paying full price. So I can just shop on GW website and have free delivery to my house then if I so chose to do so. How does this help the store? Or if I want my product right away I can go else where and get about what 25% off or pay Canadian dollars but as American listing price. So if the product is $150 Canadian I can buy what is listed as US price so then I only pay $125 Canadian instead. How is this helping the store?
So the store wants me for a customer, but offers me no discount. No other incentives. So why should I shop there? I am not speaking just figuratively. I am actually doing this. I understand the store needs to pay bills. So why do I shop there? I shop there because I can get games now. I don't have to travel or wait a week or so to get my product. So the only thing that the store is offering me is games. I don't feel like I have to pay to play since I am already supporting the store by paying full price instead of getting discounts.
So if I have to pay, then I feel like I can shop else where because instead of making purchases from the store, I can buy else where but I am supporting by paying to play and the store is only receiving $5 from me now. I don't play all the time, but let's say I play once a week or $20 a month. If I am going to pay $20 a month to play a few games, then I may as well shop else where and support another store that gives out discounts and major savings. So how is that going to help the store where I play if I buy else where?
It goes both ways. Want me to pay full price for product, then I should get something else in return. If I am not getting something else in return or how I perceive value for my dollar why shop there?
Reverse the process. When a customer makes a purchase, give them a chit for a 'free' table, based on amount of purchase with a minimum purchase required.
Blackie wrote: Who did ever talked about store credits? That would be a complete different story. I meant that I wouldn't pay only for gaming, but if you do so and grant a store credit then you're paying not only for gaming but also for the miniatures/supplies.
The only issue I have with the system of "Pay into store credit" is I'd be pooling store credit, and would rather just spend money when I'm ready to, while keeping it in the bank in case I actually need it. I'm slower making purchases now that my armies are basically acquired, and I don't know when my next project will start. Or even *if* it will start. However, a system like this would basically force it to happen at some point, because I need to spend that credit. I'm less opposed to this system, though. It's just a tactic that doesn't increase loyalty, instead it enforces loyalty, I'm not a fan of that.
But as far as having to pay to play *without* getting credit back, nope. I'll take that money and set up my own table. It doesn't cost that much (much less than I spent at the store last year, by about 90%) and the store would lose the money I'd be putting into it on full-price items and overpriced/marked up items such as snacks and drinks.
Again. I am spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars. So if I pay for a table, I have all right to shop else where to get a discount and play at his store because I paid the $5 fee. So again, this struggling store rather have my $5 instead of the hundreds or thousand I spend?
So let me see if I understand this... You clearly comprehend the concept of "buy where you play" - so I can only assume that you would frown upon a person using table space without buying anything from a store. We're agreed on this, yes?
Okay, so extrapolating from there, let's assume that there is some time period X after making a purchase of size ($ amount) Y, where it is no longer "polite" to continue using table space. For example, you wouldn't buy a single $50 model and then expect to use the store's tables day-in and day-out for the rest of the year without buying anything else. Certainly, we can agree that this is a bit rude (breaking the spirit of the "buy-where-you-play" rule, at least).
So we're now assuming that in order not to feel guilty (and not get nasty looks from the store owner) you are making regular purchases. You said this yourself, in any case.
Then let's say that you're spending at least $150 each month. It seems pretty reasonable that you would be able to come in any day and use table space without worrying.
Which brings me to the question; how is this so substantially different than what the OP described that you have such a problem with it? That is, $150 a month in purchases along with the implication that you are entitled to the table space is not financially that different from spending $5 to play every single day of the month (~30 days), then getting a $150 purchase for free at the end of the month. Ultimately, since it's all going to the same pot (aka store credit), you're not losing anything by paying the table fee, assuming what you said about making regular purchases is indeed true. The only difference is that people who are not making regular purchases are now contributing to the store.
How is it different? It's different because the shop is "forcing" a sale on you then. Either you charge for the table or don't. Don't use it as an excuse "you get a credit". Basically what the shop owner is saying, "You need to buy a pot of paint from me to play". Simple as that. I actually wouldn't have any qualms if that is what is said instead of using and excuse to hide the fact of what he is doing. Nobody should be forced to buy a pot of paint to play.
The way I see it I am not getting a discount. I am paying full price. So I can just shop on GW website and have free delivery to my house then if I so chose to do so. How does this help the store? Or if I want my product right away I can go else where and get about what 25% off or pay Canadian dollars but as American listing price. So if the product is $150 Canadian I can buy what is listed as US price so then I only pay $125 Canadian instead. How is this helping the store?
So the store wants me for a customer, but offers me no discount. No other incentives. So why should I shop there? I am not speaking just figuratively. I am actually doing this. I understand the store needs to pay bills. So why do I shop there? I shop there because I can get games now. I don't have to travel or wait a week or so to get my product. So the only thing that the store is offering me is games. I don't feel like I have to pay to play since I am already supporting the store by paying full price instead of getting discounts.
So if I have to pay, then I feel like I can shop else where because instead of making purchases from the store, I can buy else where but I am supporting by paying to play and the store is only receiving $5 from me now. I don't play all the time, but let's say I play once a week or $20 a month. If I am going to pay $20 a month to play a few games, then I may as well shop else where and support another store that gives out discounts and major savings. So how is that going to help the store where I play if I buy else where?
It goes both ways. Want me to pay full price for product, then I should get something else in return. If I am not getting something else in return or how I perceive value for my dollar why shop there?
I see your point. Do you not see mine?
Basically what you're saying is that the act of handing over the $5 for the table is what offends you... which seems pretty irrational to me.
Based on what you've said, it sounds like you wouldn't have a problem with a store owner coming up to you and saying:
"Hey Davor, you spent $150 on your last purchase. That entitles you to 30 days worth of 'play tokens.' Just drop one in the jar any day you want to play and you can use a table as long as you need."
But you would have a problem with a store owner saying:
"Hey Davor, you spent $5 to use a table today. That entitles you to one 'discount voucher.' Just drop one in the jar when you make a purchase and it's $5 off the purchase price."
Mathematically, these are the same ($5 = 1 day of table use), so I'm not really sure where the problem is if it's not just some emotional overreaction to the "insult" of having to make a transaction before using a table. Moreover, I doubt any store owner that operated under one of the above methods would be opposed to allowing people to do the other (since again, they're financially the same on the store's end), so if you're really that upset about paying $5 for a table you could probably arrange to get "play tokens" from your big purchases instead.
Now to be fair, the OP doesn't seem to have asked about that at his store, so there's no way to know if it would fly, but that seems like a more tempered, reasoned suggestion based on his original question than getting mad at the supposedly horrible behavior of that particular LGS.
EDIT: Also, you said "Nobody should be forced to buy a pot of paint to play." Which begs the question, how much does someone need to buy to be able to play? You seem to be contradicting yourself here. It's obviously more than nothing, because you haven't argued that people should be able to freely use table space without ever buying anything... but if a single pot of paint is too much, then what exactly is an acceptable amount?
EDIT: Also, you said "Nobody should be forced to buy a pot of paint to play." Which begs the question, how much does someone need to buy to be able to play? You seem to be contradicting yourself here. It's obviously more than nothing, because you haven't argued that people should be able to freely use table space without ever buying anything... but if a single pot of paint is too much, then what exactly is an acceptable amount?
Great to have a civil talk. I agree, if you don't buy nothing from the store, you shouldn't be playing at the store, unless the store owner says it's ok.
The pot of paint issue I have is the way it was said. You have to pay $5 and then it goes to credit. I feel nobody should tell you how to spend your money. I guess we are just viewing it different ways and because I am not good with words I can't explain myself. First it came out as to Pay to Play. Then later as an "excuse" it came out as "it's a store credit". That is why I said, well nobody should be forced to buy a pot of paint.
Maybe call it entitlement. Maybe calling it "just want to get a deal no matter how small it is". If I spend a few hundred dollars or a thousand dollars I am like "What? You want more from me? Haven't I already spent enough at your store you want more?" Then again, being Canadian and having over 55% of our paycheck taken out for taxes through out various levels of government I just hate being nickeled and dimed to death. What is next, they going to charge for the very air we breathe?
and shout out it's the principle of the thing, but that $5 is paying for so much more. It's helping keeping the doors of the 
