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I'd be a bit more sympathetic to the LGS if they were using, say, half of your fee for the league and half to put on other stuff, but if it's all going to the league coupon it seems a tad unfair. Most of the non-GW LGS I've been to have charged a pound or two for club nights, and a wee bit more for events - but they always have **something** other than just 40k space. The last place I played at (5 or so years ago) wanted £1 on the door, plus a £2 fee if you wanted to play in the league, but in addition to 40k tables they had a hobby table with paints and inks and stuff, plus a couple of videogame consoles that children could be parked in front of. Also the league prize was cash, not store credit.

The only GW LGS I ever played at was in Liverpool 10 or so years ago - their game nights were free.

Jacksmiles wrote:
Nope. I'm saying if a given person in this thread has said they're against paying for table use, they've also generally said they still spend money at the store regardless. I'm saying that very few people (if any - I don't remember seeing one but I'm not going to reread the thread every time to check) have said something to the effect of "I don't spend any money at the store at all" AND "I would refuse to pay for table use." At least one of those statements has been the opposite for almost everyone in here, so saying things like the poster I originally quoted in the post that you quoted is totally out of whack with reality and is an emotional response to something that isn't happening in this thread.

Thanks for clarifying. So yes, the majority said they would pay a small fee. But there were about 13 people who flat out said "No way" to paying for table use.

XCaligulaX wrote:
I have spoken to some of the other members of the local community and it seems there is a large consensus that the owner is more interested in profits tha anything else and is not particularly interested in 40k. For the time being I have decided to play at another, closer LGS that is more appreciative of their customers and is more interested in developing relationships with the clientele rather than seeing them as walking wallets.

It's probably worth keeping in mind that most games stores (especially ones that focus on wargames) probably aren't raking in huge amounts of money, rather they're probably just struggling to stay open.

Far more gaming stores open and fail than succeed. One of my local stores was doing quite well for several years but then went under because of rent hike when it came time for them to renegotiate their lease. Running a business can be pretty cut throat.

The LGS that is currently near me doesn't offer discounts AND charges to use tables. They've given up trying to compete with online stores and simply create an awesome place to play and paint with friendly staff, a huge gaming area and nice terrain, it seems to be working for them at the moment but I guess we'll see how it goes long term. Most gamers around here are mid 20's to mid 30's and aren't necessarily rich, but have enough hobby money to not care about paying a few bucks for a day's worth of gaming on a table that is far nicer than what they could put together at home.

Another LGS a bit further away doesn't charge to use tables, but they don't even have a 40k night anymore, it's mostly become RPG's, card games, board games and skirmish type games. I think they still have a Warmahordes night and that's about it.

It mostly seems your LGS just kind of lost the plot on how to implement a system where you charge for tables.

Hi, my name is Carl.
I have seen this sort of thing from both sides. I was once a teenager with a tabletop army that would look for places to play games, and walk out dejectedly when asked to pay table fees. That evolved to playing tournaments. After driving an hour to a game night and being the only person to show up to a couple, my habit evolved to going to tournaments instead. A day where a nominal fee is paid for the guarantee of a couple games against a couple different opponents was a much more palatable plan than wasting a night driving to a gaming night where no one else bothered to go? It only took a couple to wither that option in my mind.

Then, I had a buddy open a hobby shop. Initially it was a place designed to sell comic books, as there wasn't such in the place where we lived, Cobleskill (a college town). After a bit he got into tabletop games from boredom as much as from anything else. Eventually, he got into miniatures. He called his place the 'Empire Ray Gun' (look it up on Facebook). I got the chance to see the OP's point from the other perspective. For every person who spent money in the store, several others used it for a gaming space without supporting it. While I felt that it was reasonable to support the place that I gamed at, not everyone agreed, and I play in his basement now.

I was one of those people who was generally willing to pay another's way for table fees, but when it goes from appreciated to expected, I stopped doing it too.

 Dark_Apostle_Spartachris wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
Nope. I'm saying if a given person in this thread has said they're against paying for table use, they've also generally said they still spend money at the store regardless. I'm saying that very few people (if any - I don't remember seeing one but I'm not going to reread the thread every time to check) have said something to the effect of "I don't spend any money at the store at all" AND "I would refuse to pay for table use." At least one of those statements has been the opposite for almost everyone in here, so saying things like the poster I originally quoted in the post that you quoted is totally out of whack with reality and is an emotional response to something that isn't happening in this thread.

Thanks for clarifying. So yes, the majority said they would pay a small fee. But there were about 13 people who flat out said "No way" to paying for table use.

But of that second group, they are also saying they still spend their money at the store. I'm sure you know that, but I want to keep it clear to others who might jump in and throw their "SUPPORT YOUR STORE *incoherent screeches*" comments as if people are refusing to do so by saying they don't want to pay table fees.

XCaligulaX wrote:

It strikes me as odd that so many people have such a negative view of people who would play at a store and not buy something. There seems to be a lot of "buy something or gtfo" mentality. I doubt there are many people who start a gaming store without having a passion for it (and before people start citing anecdotes yes there is an exception to every rule). Providing a space to play is more of a marketing play than anything else. Keeping customers in your store increases the likelihood of purchases. At any rate, keeping statements like that to a minimum would be appreciated. There are ways to indicate your opinion without calling people scum suckers or referring that they are a detriment to the community and store.

It's been my experience that stores don't start this way. Most have the best of intentions until the reality of business ownership kicks in. Rent and utilities are non-trivial costs and few stores even break even on that, which is why you'll find many store owners have full time "real" jobs to actually pay for things like a home and food. Of course, this ends up requiring staff, which adds to the cost, which puts more pressure on everything.

Ultimately, it all comes down to economy of scale, and minis games don't support that very well I'm sad to say. A new item comes out for a game and you expect one player to buy it, but you should probably have another copy on the shelf to keep up your selection, right? Well, when you have to put the money up front (generally around 50% MSRP) 2 copies of something in which only 1 sells is breaking even. Most products out there demand 3 sales per outlet to start being profitable and minis games just don't get that many sales outside of very large communities.

So, back to the store owner, who had the best of intentions when he started, is now looking at recurring costs without the revenue to support them and starts really looking at where the money is going and where its not coming back. Magic is almost universally where the money is coming from, with drafts in particular selling that Magic 3 copies per play session per player after all. Things like Board Games and Comics do alright in the grand scheme of things, but minis? Sheesh. You're stocking items often for 1 person in the community who might not even buy it, but realistically probably spends under $100 a quarter unless they faction hop? Then you start seeing those items that aren't selling show up anyway and you have to ask, why am I going bankrupt for these people? Often times the answer is because you're a fan of the game yourself, but when it isn't your game.... well, its a lot easier to see that you're not really operating in a symbiotic relationship.

 LunarSol wrote:
So, back to the store owner, who had the best of intentions when he started, is now looking at recurring costs without the revenue to support them and starts really looking at where the money is going and where its not coming back. Magic is almost universally where the money is coming from, with drafts in particular selling that Magic 3 copies per play session per player after all. Things like Board Games and Comics do alright in the grand scheme of things, but minis? Sheesh. You're stocking items often for 1 person in the community who might not even buy it, but realistically probably spends under $100 a quarter unless they faction hop? Then you start seeing those items that aren't selling show up anyway and you have to ask, why am I going bankrupt for these people? Often times the answer is because you're a fan of the game yourself, but when it isn't your game.... well, its a lot easier to see that you're not really operating in a symbiotic relationship.

That's why I'm more than happy for stores just to disconnect their miniature sales from their tables and instead charge for table use (even if it's just in the form of buying store credit which you can then use to buy models/paints). Accept that it's 2 different services, not everyone who buys models is going to care about your tables, not everyone who wants to use your tables wants to buy your models.

I just don't see how game stores stay in business.

Online sales (and used sales) should wreck them.

Gaming models are horribly overpriced. To the point of absurdity.

If this hobby was actually priced in a way that made sense, and the stores could sell models at the best prices, then it seems it would be easy street...

I love the hobby, but the entire thing is such a mess. One stupid transport like a Rhino cost as much as a video game. It's a wonder this hobby stays alive at all.

I've heard that gaming stores stay in business primarily thanks to tcg's like Magic the Gathering - doing events and selling singles. It's actually apparently lucrative enough to allow them to have minimal models sales and not have to worry about it.

 Whitebeard wrote:

I love the hobby, but the entire thing is such a mess. One stupid transport like a Rhino cost as much as a video game. It's a wonder this hobby stays alive at all.

The amazing thing is that video games have held that price point for so long. I can only guess they were really profitable 10-15 years ago, and the margin is getting slimmer and slimmer - leading to the current stagnation of AAA titles being 'sports' or 'military multiplayer' or 'proven nostalgia titles'.

John Prins wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:

I love the hobby, but the entire thing is such a mess. One stupid transport like a Rhino cost as much as a video game. It's a wonder this hobby stays alive at all.

The amazing thing is that video games have held that price point for so long. I can only guess they were really profitable 10-15 years ago, and the margin is getting slimmer and slimmer - leading to the current stagnation of AAA titles being 'sports' or 'military multiplayer' or 'proven nostalgia titles'.

Video games can afford to stay the same price because the industry has been growing like crazy. Games cost way more to make now than they used to, but they sell tons more. The stagnation doesn't have much to do with the RRP, it has to do with the huge development costs. When a big AAA game flops, it flops big time potentially losing 10's of millions of dollars, so publishers want "safe" titles that have a good chance of making money without investing too much more money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whitebeard wrote:
I just don't see how game stores stay in business.

Online sales (and used sales) should wreck them.

Gaming models are horribly overpriced. To the point of absurdity.

If this hobby was actually priced in a way that made sense, and the stores could sell models at the best prices, then it seems it would be easy street...

I love the hobby, but the entire thing is such a mess. One stupid transport like a Rhino cost as much as a video game. It's a wonder this hobby stays alive at all.

I think wargames make money in two ways, firstly a large number of new players who never actually get all that far before quitting and secondly the whales for whom money isn't a big problem and they buy far more than they could ever paint.

The rest of the customer base in the middle are your non-whale regulars who only buy a few sets each year and don't actually make you much money.

But a store would really struggle to survive off wargames alone, which is why most don't even try. Rather wargames are a small part of the bigger picture. I was chatting to one hobby store owner (not wargames, just general hobbies) and we were talking about the money he gets in through RC cars, RC planes, plastic models, diecast, scalextric, random knick knacks, and he said no one of those things is enough to keep his doors open, if he dropped any of them he'd be struggling to turn a profit, it's investing in the broad base of products that keeps him in business.

I'm lucky I live within driving distance of Fantasy Flight's Game Center so I have free tables whenever I want

Nobody outside GW sells JUST warhammer, and even GW stores don't charge for games! Most gaming stores stay afloat from magic the gathering (booster drafts, tournaments, prereleases) from my experience. Its not a customers job to keep the store from going under, and I don't think anyone should be guilt tripped into paying 5 bucks just so they can keep the lights on.

40k is one of the most expensive hobbies to begin with. They can't survive off the minimum 20 bucks us plastic-crack addicts spend every time we enter the store? Please.

They can't survive off the minimum 20 bucks us plastic-crack addicts spend every time we enter the store? Please

I usually spend nothing.

That's why it doesn't bother me to pay $5 per game day (unless I was gaming there every day). My store doesn't charge anything, so I try to find things to buy...(but usually can't)

It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.

I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.

Brother Michael wrote:
Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.

No, there isn't.

They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.

If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.

 insaniak wrote:

Brother Michael wrote:
Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.

No, there isn't.

They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.

If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.

Yeah, I don't understand why the idea of paying a small fee is such an issue. My local store charges £1 per person per 2x4ft board. So Warmachine is £2 and 40k is £3 per person. Seems entirely reasonable to me. If you can't/won't pay the fee then you can play at people's houses.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.

I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.

"It's not a guilt trip, but here's a guilt trip"

so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for.

In my observation the people who want to play in a store without buying from the store are quite happy to pay separately for the tables.

So it's not a "sense of entitlement", it's "I don't want to support your business model".

A friend has opened a gaming store and is slowly, growing his business. He charges a nominal fee for people to come in and rent table space for games etc, and it works because it is not extortionate. He lets people bring food in, and sells drinks and bars of chocolate and crisps himself. In doing so he has created a lovely friendly little scene in the store, and it works as more and more people, and better yet, a great diversity of people come in and use the store.

I think its great that some let people come in and paint and play for free but can uderstand why many do not.

The local gaming store in my town doesn't charge for tables, but doesn't got out of their way to add anything to the terrain or the gaming tables. All the terrain has been donated by players.
The store doesn't even stock much 40k, so I don't buy from there much other than for snacks while I'm playing occasionally.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.

I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.

"It's not a guilt trip, but here's a guilt trip"

so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for.

In my observation the people who want to play in a store without buying from the store are quite happy to pay separately for the tables.

So it's not a "sense of entitlement", it's "I don't want to support your business model".

Anyone willing to pay for a table is not who I'm talking about. The people I'm talking about are incapable of feeling guilty, or shame. The people who piss on the floor, because it's close enough.

If you don't want to support the business model that's fine. Just do it somewhere else.

 insaniak wrote:

Brother Michael wrote:
Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.

No, there isn't.

They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.

If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.

A lot of those people are already spending all of their money just to have a small army to play with people. And might not know many people who play.

Etharin wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Brother Michael wrote:
Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.

No, there isn't.

They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.

If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.

Yeah, I don't understand why the idea of paying a small fee is such an issue. My local store charges £1 per person per 2x4ft board. So Warmachine is £2 and 40k is £3 per person. Seems entirely reasonable to me. If you can't/won't pay the fee then you can play at people's houses.

While I'm not opposed to LGSs charging that seems ridiculously extortionate.

I have always thought that the best system would be for anyone who wanted to use tables pay a reasonable fee, say £5, but this then becomes store credit on a loyalty card or something. It would make people support their FLGS if they wanted to play there, but they aren't really paying to use the tables as they get miniatures too.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
It's not a guilt trip so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for. If you're not going to make purchases at a store then don't waste their time with your presence. The space you occupy could be better used by a paying customer.

I speak as a former Games store employee that has had to clean up after you. If you're going to use our lights, heat, and ruin the bathroom, then the least you can do is buy something.

"It's not a guilt trip, but here's a guilt trip"

so much as surrendering their sense of entitlement to store resources they refuse to pay for.

In my observation the people who want to play in a store without buying from the store are quite happy to pay separately for the tables.

So it's not a "sense of entitlement", it's "I don't want to support your business model".

Anyone willing to pay for a table is not who I'm talking about. The people I'm talking about are incapable of feeling guilty, or shame. The people who piss on the floor, because it's close enough.

If you don't want to support the business model that's fine. Just do it somewhere else.

And how many of those people do you actually think there are? Are you sure you're not just talking angrily to the walls?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ruin wrote:

Etharin wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Brother Michael wrote:
Guys, most of you seem to be forgetting something: there is a huge number of players aged 12-18 who will be prized out of the hobby this way.

No, there isn't.

They might be priced out of playing at the store that way. But games stores aren't the only place you can play a game.

If someone is providing tables, terrain and floorspace for you to play on, it's not at all unreasonable for them to ask you for a nominal fee to help offset the cost of all of that.

Yeah, I don't understand why the idea of paying a small fee is such an issue. My local store charges £1 per person per 2x4ft board. So Warmachine is £2 and 40k is £3 per person. Seems entirely reasonable to me. If you can't/won't pay the fee then you can play at people's houses.

While I'm not opposed to LGSs charging that seems ridiculously extortionate.

If the tables are decent quality why do you think it's extortionate? How much do you think it costs the store to set up that table?

It's maybe a couple of days to a week's worth of work to set up a good table, plus the cost of the raw materials, you're probably looking at a couple of hundred dollars to maybe $400 or more to set up a table. The store has rent to pay and the tables are taking up space and they have employees to pay who may be employed later than usual so people can be playing games (most of the "gaming" stores around here are open late).

Unless the table is just a cheap piece of crap set up in the corner and your store is still only open regular business hours, paying a few bucks to use the table isn't really all that much.

There's not too many other activities you can do for only a few bucks for a few hours.

NivlacSupreme wrote:


A lot of those people are already spending all of their money just to have a small army to play with people.

Are they renting it?

Because otherwise, owning an army isn't an ongoing charge.

And might not know many people who play.

Which makes a store a useful local resource for finding other players. It doesn't make the store the only place a game can be played.

The store credit system is the best, but you have to keep track of that information all the time.

There is a rumor the biggest store in the area I live is going to become a paid membership only. Even if you want to play anything (even Magic) or paint Gundams.

Not sure if this has been mentioned.

But would you have a problem if the fee was to cover the cost of having one or more staff members available and the materials to make the terrain?

That being said, the sudden apparent change in policy is a bit off, unless there had been a notice of some sort put up.

I think the store in my area they are going to charge monthly membership because it is too expensive to maintain the place.

Also it is possible because there are too many people buying their minis and cards online and use them in the store without any benefit for the venue.

Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?

 SolarCross wrote:
Given that online discounters can always beat LGS on price and selection and that the only thing an LGS can do better than the online discounters is venue provision, I wonder if an LGS might not do better to concede the retail side of the business entirely (or almost entirely) so they can double down on war game tables & events. Instead of looking at tables as a sacrifice in shelf space, look at shelves as a sacrifice in table space! Needless to say that would mean charging for tables, the same as a video arcade charges for machines or a pool hall charges for pool tables. Anyone think that might be the way to go for LGS?

Several problems with this, but I'll just highlight the two largest ones.

Many areas have minuscule wargaming populations. Only shops in major metropolitan areas could hope to survive with that kind of business model due to the sheer number (or more a lack of) of interested bodies. Tournaments / game nights generally pander to adults. As a result they generally they start in the late afternoon / early evening after people are done with work, picked up their kids from school, and other activities, which means that they'll often take place during rush hour. As a result even stores in densely populated areas are somewhat strangled in how far they can reliably draw people from.

Similarly but also somewhat different, a shop with this model would require a large (and constant) client base to function. If you're getting five dollars a head for just the right to play / access to the tables, you're going to need an average of 20 heads a day to simply 100$ a day. Now that's not much income for a business, and how many of us can reasonably think of a store which has an average of 20 people, a day, interested in playing 40k / magic / ect. This number becomes more obtainable if you factor in food and average it (I.E. 60 heads on friday covers numerous days), but this still comes with the issue of being below the bare-minimum profit wise.

Last, but not least, this thread is a perfect example of why this idea would be doomed to fail: Many people balk at the idea of paying anything to play, so you'd lose a large number of potential customers to them being too cheap to fork over a few bucks for a superior playing area.