We've been waiting for the return of a Primarch for a VERY long time, with constant speculation as to how it would happen and who it would be. While I've always known it was easy for GW to bring Guilliman back what with the whole stasis thing, for some reason I've never really believed he'd be the first. Maybe I underestimated GW's bias towards the ultramarines (dont get me wrong, I have nothing against the smurfs, but I do think GW gives them a bit too much glory and attention), but I always assumed they'd bring back the lion or russ first, and in my opinion that would have been better. I dont dislike papa smurf but to me his return just seems a bit boring, we could have had any of the others come back and it would have been so much cooler; imagine the dark angles learning that their Primarch had been with them all along, and now was back to fight alongside them again, or the Space Wolves finally being reunited with Russ, who is back from the eye of terror with a grudge. Instead, we just got a big smurf to lead the smaller smurfs and remind everyone the smurfs are great; it just seems a little bit too convenient. A misused opportunity imho, but I'd love to hear all your opinions of the return of a Primarch.
Sorry for being long-winded, and I dont mean to hate on the ultramarines or Guilliman, nor do I mean to complain (Hey, we do still have a loyal primarch back, and thats pretty darn cool!)
I think it'll shake up the 40k universe more than you give him credit for - the loyal Primarchs all fought for an Emperor who didn't want to be worshiped, didn't want people thinking he was a god - the Ultras trashed a world full of the Word Bearer's Emperor-worshiping churches in the lead up to the heresy (for which the Word Bearers retaliated with the attack at Calth). How is he going to see the Imperium now that they've basically turned a full 180 on that?
Is he going to start up Imperium Secundus again? (i.e. break away from the actual Imperium), war by Macragge against Terra? Or march up to the throne and pull the plug?
Roboute hanging out with Cypher is definitely going to be interesting when the Lion comes back, and I'm sure the Wolf won't be far from the action.
IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?
The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.
I actually don't mind all that much but I will say this, if he turns out to be stronger than Magnus on the table, I will be a bit salty because it wouldn't make fething sense for a just awakened Guiliman to be able to face off against a warp-powered Magnus.
I think exactly the same as you, OP, and the miniature is ugly. The Lion would have been so much better, especially as we don't know if he was truly loyal.
Bobthehero wrote: Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck
Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).
Bobthehero wrote: Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck
Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).
I agree. I find they also diminish the tactical nature of a skirmish game. Guilliman isn't going to be looking for a wall to crouch behind to avoid enemy fire. There's a lot more interesting tactical decisions to be made when the game is a some infantry squads with a couple tanks providing cover and supporting fire than when it's semi-invincible demi-gods walking up to the middle of the table to slug it out.
Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).
Unkillable monstrous opponents are quite grim dark if you ask me ; ) They even touch the realm of lovecraftian nightmares.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dislike the Guilliman model. It looks oddly shaped and too big. The return of named hero hammer is cool. It fits the fluff and makes for epic games. However I would like them to be not automatic included into every game I play.
It might even be good to exclude them from most games like the WFb players used to do with named characters. However this makes owning these models a bit dull / anticlimactic.
I am rather disappointed they chose him out of all the viable candidates they could have. Dorm returning would have been much more dramatic, the lion would have been amazing, Russ or khan would have been very interesting after all that time in the warp, vulkan would have been awesome! I just think it's dumb that they went with papa smurf instead of ANY other one, his chapter gets too much credit for everything and are way too "poster-boyish" to my tastes anyway. Plus the model looks NOTHING like how I remember him being described.
Overall disappointed in gw's decision.
Bobthehero wrote: Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck
This. It's like they want to change it to Warmachine40k.
Not surprised it's big boy blue though. Been hinted that he would return since 2nd ed at least, long before every other loyalist got retconned to `maybe he's alive ooooooh very mystery`.
It further dilutes the threat of Chaos, a threat that feels non-existent as is. The problem is that going forward the story is going to go like this.
A Daemon Primarch appears. Oh no! We're doomed! The Daemon Primarch's Legion threatens to finally overwhelm XYZ objective. Gasp! A Loyalist Primarch has returned! He turns the tide and scores a great victory when all seems lost, hurrah! Repeat until we hit Terra and then Cherkov's Gunman fires and Chaos gets pushed back to the Eye. Reset the clock.
Going forward, the setting is going to be utterly dominated by the Primarchs, not the factions themselves. I can see the Xenos and to a lesser degree Chaos being sidelined in an effort to turn 40k into something resembling The Avengers in a desperate attempt to go "y-you like Space Marines right? h-here's the Horus Heresy! Only it's in the 42nd Millenium!" Black Library will focus almost exclusively on the Primarch's current activities and put out new series' detailing what they got up to whilst they were away.
Welcome to HeroHammer 40,000... well, PrimarchHammer 40,000.
I thin he's going to be pissed at all the revelations that have come about over the past 9,000 or so years. Not just at what the Empire has become, but the overwhelming evidence of just how wrong the Emperor was about so many things. Given his status as Primarch, that puts him in control of the Empire, which I doubt the Highlords are really going to like either. So this could easily cause the Empire to fracture under the weight of so many conflicting interests.
But Guilliman is a figure that could, fluffwise, actually be a leader rather than just a killer.
Agreed - it could be a much more interesting move by Gw for the background than "RAAAH Leman Russ comes back to fight Magnus" - yawn.
RG shoud be someone who can actually try and reform elements of the Imperium and he does have the authority to do it. How he will cope with the massive changes to everythig he fought for should be interesting.
My first choice, Vulkan was apparently not much use when he last turned up - I can;t get excited about naythig to do with the Lion since I read the HH books about him. Meh about Cypher
Ah, ok Melissa... that's why gw is hastily moving to 8th due to declined sales, imbalance, and event attendance. On the other hand, they have brought forth plastic 30k stuff due to mass increase on 30k sales and event attendance.
So I think your crap and superior comment can be reversed if you look at facts and financial reports vs opinion.
Primarchs were figures of myth, something that existed in the fluff and created a sense of past epicness. Now, they're simply models on the table. I could have accepted it if it was only for 30k, but for 40k ? Nah. I'll just stick to 30k from now on.
OH NO, SOMEONE ON THE INTERNET DOESN'T LIKE MELISSIA'S OPINIONS, BETTER GET ANGRY AND SNARKY ABOUT IT, STAT!
I don't care that it's more financially successful? There's a lot more than the fluff that influences sales-- 7th edition has been much derided as a massive messs when it comes to rules and unbalanced releases, for example, and even then what I've read suggests they've not been doing all that bad. But regardless, the fluff of 40k remains massively superior to that of 30k. The 30k books essentially ruined the Horus Heresy, turning it from awesome legends in to mundane banalities.
While I enjoy the idea of a storyline moving forward...I think Primarchs was a poor decision. Warhammer fluff has often been predicated on mystery and tales of the "great past" etc. Putting it into an ugly plastic model kinda spoils that. However, Ultramarines are boring milquetoast so I suppose if you had to have one show up - Rowboat is as good as any.
Personally I'm not a terribly huge fan of bringing characters like Primarch's into 40k. They were always background figures, somewhat mysterious and unknown in many ways, shrouded in legend and myth.
Making them tabletop units with rules and an actual model and everything takes a lot of that away, and detracts from the characters the 40k setting has been based around forever. It feels like GW has run out of ideas and is reaching for just anything to push out for another monthly release. It also gets into character units that are just so ridiculously powerful that their use seems...obscene, even if the rules aren't necessarily OP.
I have much the same feeling toward the HH stuff in general, but at least there it's in a timeline centered around the actions of these figures, bringing them back for 40k feels...hamfisted.
Now, in some ways, I would not necessarily have been opposed to a 40k "end times" and story reboot where some of these characters could be reintroduced like Age of Sigmar, which would make more sense (albeit handled differently than GW did AoS), but for normal 40k I'm just not a fan.
GW really seems to have just lost its ability to create truly interesting new stuff, with no Priestly or Chambers or the like it really feels like GW is just coasting on material written decades ago and doesn't have the originality to create something truly without it being painfully product oriented or a reimagining of older eras.
oldzoggy wrote: How is the 40k game superior to the 30k game.
Already answered:
Melissia wrote: But regardless, the fluff of 40k remains massively superior to that of 30k. The 30k books essentially ruined the Horus Heresy, turning it from awesome legends in to mundane banalities.
You seem quite insistent that I answer as if I was arguing about game rules, even though I gave absolutely no indication that I was.
Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...
Not only do I not mind the reintroduction of Primarchs into activity (with the note that some Daemon Primarchs were already active - Angron, Mortarion, and Magnus have all made their appearances in fluff between their ascension and the 41st millenium), I'm excited for it.
I'm intrigued by where the story will go, and what new balances of power will result. I want to see how they resolve (or avoid resolving) plot points like Cypher's blade, RB's penchant for making Imperiums within Imperiums ("Yo, dawg..."), the loyalty of [some of] the Fallen, etc.
I may well not like specific changes in the lore, but then, that's happened before (Hello there, Newcrons! Greetings, seeming-removal-of-FTL for Tau!), and I've found it far more pleasant, overall, to adapt to the change rather than piss into the winds thereof.
Not everyone has to be as excited about change or the threat of change as I am, though. I can understand that change is scary, and the comfortable stagnancy of the 40k universe can be warm with familiarity.
After all, if you're right, you'll have plenty of people to play with who are willing to ignore changes that are universally disliked. If the existing WH40k universe is more your cuppa, then ignore the fluff you don't like when you're forging your own narrative, or simply time your fluff to before these events happen - Isn't the call, whenever someone dares suggest that the story/setting get advanced, that there's 10k years of grim, dark warfare to explore? Take your own advice, and explore the old while ignoring the new.
mrhappyface wrote: IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?
The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.
with all due respect we dunno eneugh about the return of Gulliman to say one way or another, it's likey Cawl doesn't do it single handedly. as apparently Xenos influance was involved as well. so most likely it was a matter of eldar technology likely provided the missing puzzle piece.
Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman
edit: as an aside, I've actually paused building a \ultramarine army, as I wanna see what new options rising storm 3'll give me.
Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman
I don't believe that's actually the case. Ynnead is supposed to be created via the death of (and by incorporating the souls of) the Eldar race in its entirety, with the stated goal/prophesied RESULT of destroying Slaanesh AFTER Ynnead arises.
Ynnead is also strongly implied to have been birthed in an incredibly weakened state - see Death Masque and the leaked White Dwarf text. I sincerely doubt Ynnead in his current state (just awakened, premature/incomplete, and without having even united the previously-unmentioned-in-the-lore 5 finger-swords of the Crone Goddess) would even be a minor threat to Slaanesh in time to help with Guilliman's revival, let alone capable of actually providing the result Ynnead is prophesied to provide.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...
Sure are lots of straw dolls around here.
Well, people seem to need SOMETHING to point at when asked where GW touched them.
Or rather, people seem to need SOMETHING to attack when they find it infuriating that other people disagree with them. Respond to peoples' actual posts, not a straw representation of their posts.
Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman
I don't believe that's actually the case. Ynnead is supposed to be created via the death of (and by incorporating the souls of) the Eldar race in its entirety, with the stated goal/prophesied RESULT of destroying Slaanesh AFTER Ynnead arises.
Ynnead is also strongly implied to have been birthed in an incredibly weakened state - see Death Masque and the leaked White Dwarf text. I sincerely doubt Ynnead in his current state (just awakened, premature/incomplete, and without having even united the previously-unmentioned-in-the-lore 5 finger-swords of the Crone Goddess) would even be a minor threat to Slaanesh in time to help with Guilliman's revival, let alone capable of actually providing the result Ynnead is prophesied to provide.
you're proably right about that, still an intreasting theory on the matter, the idea that "only now would such a thing have been effective"
Unusual Suspect wrote: Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...
Sure are lots of straw dolls around here.
Well, people seem to need SOMETHING to point at when asked where GW touched them.
Or rather, people seem to need SOMETHING to attack when they find it infuriating that other people disagree with them. Respond to peoples' actual posts, not a straw representation of their posts.
Infuriating? Nah. Mildly amusing. (Wouldn't that be a straw representation of MY post? Heh.)
But we're off topic. Let's return to initial opinions on extremely limited revelations of impending changes to the lore!
Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman
I don't believe that's actually the case. Ynnead is supposed to be created via the death of (and by incorporating the souls of) the Eldar race in its entirety, with the stated goal/prophesied RESULT of destroying Slaanesh AFTER Ynnead arises.
Ynnead is also strongly implied to have been birthed in an incredibly weakened state - see Death Masque and the leaked White Dwarf text. I sincerely doubt Ynnead in his current state (just awakened, premature/incomplete, and without having even united the previously-unmentioned-in-the-lore 5 finger-swords of the Crone Goddess) would even be a minor threat to Slaanesh in time to help with Guilliman's revival, let alone capable of actually providing the result Ynnead is prophesied to provide.
you're proably right about that, still an intreasting theory on the matter, the idea that "only now would such a thing have been effective"
It's certainly possible that Ynnead's creation, even as flawed and incomplete as it is, could have Slaanesh slightly distracted... but I've always understood Guilliman's wound to be severe based on the weapon used, rather than on the patron of the weapon's wielder. I'm excited to learn more as things progress.
As others have already said, I believe characters such as primarchs belong to the background, shrouded in a healthy amount of mystery after ten thousand years. They certainly have no business at all on top of a table for a 40k game. Of course, regarding that last sentence, I have similar views about superheavy vehicles, gargantuan creatures and the like. They were fine as display pieces, or as playable units in a different game with a different scale (Epic).
That said, primarchs in a 40k game was going to happen sooner or later. For years (at least since late 5th edition) GW has been pushing forward a narrative centered on the deeds of heroic superheroes. It's been a long time since the good old days of "this galaxy is just too damn huge and in the bigger picture nobody cares if you live or die". Now it's just about da spessss mehreeeens blowing up stuff with their movie bolters and solving problems by punching them in the face, in the context of a massive competition to be the most bAd_aSS eVaR.
While 40k has always been about rule of cool, it worked really well as a grimdark, ironic and dark-humorous setting. All subtetly and restraint went down the gutter a long time ago, sadly. We're at a point in which it's difficult to tell what's worse, the state of the rules or the background additions and changes over the last ten years.
Korinov wrote: Now it's just about da spessss mehreeeens blowing up stuff with their movie bolters and solving problems by punching them in the face, in the context of a massive competition to be the most bAd_aSS eVaR.
Pretty much. And the addition of the primarchs is only going to make this trend worse. Especially since GW is going to likely do one-upsmanship amongst the released primarchs themselves, with each new one being more badass than the last.
On a related note, that's pretty much how I summarize 90% of the Horus Heresy material really.
Unusual Suspect wrote: Oddly, when I looked outside a moment ago, the sky wasn't falling. Who'd have thought, given the rhetoric around here...
Sure are lots of straw dolls around here.
Well, people seem to need SOMETHING to point at when asked where GW touched them.
Or rather, people seem to need SOMETHING to attack when they find it infuriating that other people disagree with them. Respond to peoples' actual posts, not a straw representation of their posts.
Infuriating? Nah. Mildly amusing. (Wouldn't that be a straw representation of MY post? Heh.)
But we're off topic. Let's return to initial opinions on extremely limited revelations of impending changes to the lore!
Another thing a friend of mine noted, Yneead is supposed to be created via basicly consuming Slaanish. so while I doubt Slaanish is gone, chances are he/she has been somewhat weakened right now, given Fulgrim was the one whom woudned Gulliman, this may have created a unique window to revive Gulliman
I don't believe that's actually the case. Ynnead is supposed to be created via the death of (and by incorporating the souls of) the Eldar race in its entirety, with the stated goal/prophesied RESULT of destroying Slaanesh AFTER Ynnead arises.
Ynnead is also strongly implied to have been birthed in an incredibly weakened state - see Death Masque and the leaked White Dwarf text. I sincerely doubt Ynnead in his current state (just awakened, premature/incomplete, and without having even united the previously-unmentioned-in-the-lore 5 finger-swords of the Crone Goddess) would even be a minor threat to Slaanesh in time to help with Guilliman's revival, let alone capable of actually providing the result Ynnead is prophesied to provide.
you're proably right about that, still an intreasting theory on the matter, the idea that "only now would such a thing have been effective"
It's certainly possible that Ynnead's creation, even as flawed and incomplete as it is, could have Slaanesh slightly distracted... but I've always understood Guilliman's wound to be severe based on the weapon used, rather than on the patron of the weapon's wielder. I'm excited to learn more as things progress.
yeah the thing about the wound it it was inflicted by fulgrim, a deamon prince of slaanish. (iirc a poisoned blade) it sounds like the poison was the big issue. if perhaps due to slaanish being distracted amnifestations of slaanish in the galaxy are weakened. it's possiable the poison it.
I just kinda like that pet theory because it neatly explains ".. ok why now?"
Couldn't be happier, Geedubs chose the best primach to come back. The only primarch capable of doing things outside of warfare, I can't wait to see his rules, probably gonna give a feth ton of army wide benefits while being a tough as nails beat stick.
earlofburger wrote: Couldn't be happier, Geedubs chose the best primach to come back. The only primarch capable of doing things outside of warfare, I can't wait to see his rules, probably gonna give a feth ton of army wide benefits while being a tough as nails beat stick.
I'm also happy as ultramarines got the short end of the stick with AOD, no unique detachments, no unique relics, hopefully the book'll rectify that with some ultramar exclusive relics.
I'm also happy as ultramarines got the short end of the stick with AOD, no unique detachments, no unique relics, hopefully the book'll rectify that with some ultramar exclusive relics.
Yeah seriously, you'd think the Ultras would at least have a list of relics or warlord traits. A Ultramarine supplement is long overdue
I'm going to try to keep the bile down and avoid my less than favourable view ultramarines as much as possible here.
Well I'm not pleased with the release of rowboat. From a model perspective, he's fugly as sin. Looks like he got puked up by a confettii monster, then he decided to roll with it and say he looks faaaabuloussss. Meanwhile ultramarines behind his back snicker at the old timer in his armour aesthetics that are just sssoooo 9000 ssseasonss ago *hairflip* Yes, ultramari- sorry gotta stop myself there.
Okay, so we got what I personally consider a horrible model. On the table he's just goi g to be insane just because he's a primarchs and there's goi g to be no restriction on him- why would GW put a restriction on him? That would make people hesitate to buy him; if he's auto take they make more money, so yes, he'll be everywhere...at least in this edition; maybe geedubs shakes things up in 8th?
In the fluff. All I can say is that if the ecclesiarchy gets in line with him just because he's one of the emperors "sons" and there's no tension over the whole emperor is being worshipped thing and rowboat not rocki g the boat, I will be very disappointed. Just having everything be okay and move along now nothing to see here would be nothing short of lazy writing. Rowboats arrival and the arrival of any of the primarchs in fact should be a herald of the end times- not just the imperium physically, but also as an ideal and there is so much story telling potential there.
The Primarchs have always been the daftest thing about 40k for me, so I'm nonplussed by the Rowboat's return. That said, given GW's propensity for power creep of late it'll be amusing when the next Fall of Cadia comes out with a Tau commander capable of whupping the ol' Spiritual Liege in CC.
I'm also happy as ultramarines got the short end of the stick with AOD, no unique detachments, no unique relics, hopefully the book'll rectify that with some ultramar exclusive relics.
Yeah seriously, you'd think the Ultras would at least have a list of relics or warlord traits. A Ultramarine supplement is long overdue
I can understand why they got missed, being bog standard and all, but I think unique relics at least would be nice. the ultramarines have a rich history and all, with lots of oppertunities for relics specific to the chapter
husker98 wrote: Well the Primarch's were going to come back either way because chaos has them and the imperium doesn't so they need to even that fight.
Chaos primarchs have existed for 10 000 years, Imperium never needed primarchs of their own to deal with them before. Bringing the daemon primarchs in the forefront without bringing out the loyalist equivalents would allow chaos to finally seem like an actual threat, but of course that cannot be allowed to happen...
I am liking this. While at first I didn't like the mini of Gulliman (spelling?) but just like most GW minis when we see them for the first time they don't look good, they tend to grow on you after a while.
Someone said here or was it in another thread that the 40K universe is always in balance. By that if one side gets the upper hand, something will happen to balance it eventually.
So if Gulliman balances everything then we are back to where we were before. Or if Gulliman tips the favour for the Imperium, what will bring the tide back? That is what is getting me excited now. It will even be more grimmer or darker and climatic.
But first. One thing at a time. Let's get our explanation first with the Darth Vader suit and it it's acceptable then we cried and whined for nothing. . Let's see what happens first before we cry the sky is falling.
I'm pretty luke warm about it. It does try to make something big, but I got to admit that it fails to exploit new area or give some light on underexploited area of 40K lore and style. It's a lot of more of the same. The first release was at least attempting to give back soem attention to Sisters and give some heroes to the Adeptus Mechanicus, two things that were lacking. More Space Marines hero (and one so big and important) feels like trying to burry your bolder, precedent move in more mundane stuff.
Corax would've suited this better IMHO. Him returning from the eye of terror with the sons of Titan and Cypher could've been Cyphers biggest secret. Then, set up a battle with a new Abaddon and Corax as the climax of FoC. No more smurfs!
I think this will be amazing for the fluff because it has such a Fall of Rome vibe going for it.
Guilliman isn't going to take the current state of the Empire well, and he's going to want to fix things. But the High Lords are unlikley to just kindly give up power and allow the original High Lord of Terra to resume his position in command of the Empire, and the Ecclesiarchy will likely proclaim him a daemon and fake when he tells them to knock it off with the Emperor worship. Which means that if Gulliman isn't able to remake the Empire in what he believes it should be, he's likely to do what he always has: lead by example.
Ultramar may not break off, but it will probably be effectively independent from the rest of the Imperium at that point. And unlike other 'independence' movements, this one will stick thanks to the backing of quite a few Space Marines. The Ultramarines may not re-coalesce into a Legion, but if even half its successor Chapters follow Gulliman then he's going to effectively have his Legion once more.
Will other Primarchs will start following suit once they reappear? Russ is gonna be *pissed* in so many ways, and all the remaining loyalist Primarchs know how far off base the Empire has gone, and will want to correct it.
And thus the Empire will be torn apart. Not by what it has always feared: the alien, the mutant, the heretic. But by what it does not fear and ward against - well meaning people who seek to make things better by imposing their vision, strongly shaped by their own experience with the Emperor in the glory days of the Empire, upon the ramshackle monstrosity that remains.
And as a result, the Empire will shatter and burn.
I like it, and I like all three miniatures too. I'm looking forward to seeing what the story looks like and how it advances. I'm surprised it was Guilliman to be honest, as I was expecting either Russ, or possibly Dorn, or the Lion to lead the Loyalist Primarchs return. I'll clarify I am not surprised Guilliman was revived in 40k, but I am surprised he was the first loyalist primarch revealed.
Lastly, in reference to warlord traits and relics specifically.
I like the idea of unique warlord traits. I just wish you could choose them instead of them being random, or conversely, have a set pair of traits for each HQ choice in the codex to choose from. Say, two for Captains, two for Librarians, and two for Chaplains. Special characters (Marneus Calgar, for example) would still retain their 'set' warlord trait in the entry and perhaps make it a more powerful version of one of the two available to a Captain, however if you field a Captain you choose one or the other, depending on which one better suits the character. I feel like that would be a better system, myself.
Regarding Relics, I agree that there should be a list for Ultramarines, or at the very least a few additional ones beyond the 'vanilla' list that are only available if you field a space marine army with Ultramarine Chapter Tactics. With many other first founding chapters having their own relic lists, that would be a fair compromise I think. I just hope they address the balance discrepancies in some of the relic lists compared to others (across all factions, I mean).
That's all I've got for now. Take it easy everyone.
for me UM relics don't even need to be powerful, as the core book relics are IMHO pretty powerful, chapter specific relics however can fill two roles, 1: something that can interact specificly with UM chapter tactics. 2: something that gives us insights etc into the history. might try writing my own relics for em in the rules proposals section just for funsies.
First, I think it'd be really useful if people read the full background of Rise of The Primarch before bashing the background in Rise of The Primarch.
Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman is probably the best rounded - exemplary statesman when needed, exemplary warlord when needed.
Before the Heresy, he'd managed to forge the 500 Worlds of Ultramar into pretty much the Emperor's vision for humanity (peaceful, worlds terraformed into paradise etc), and a surprising amount of that was done before The Emperor found him.
In essence, he embodies everything The Emperor appeared to be aiming for with the Primarch programme.
Who better to hold up as a mirror to the rotting carcass that is The Imperium as we know it today?
I mean, think about it. A content, abundant society has relatively little to fear from Chaos. When there's no deprivation, there's no desperation. There's definitely roads in for Chaos even there, but the appeal is lessened.
I mean, think about it. A content, abundant society has relatively little to fear from Chaos. When there's no deprivation, there's no desperation. There's definitely roads in for Chaos even there, but the appeal is lessened.
Ah, now they had ennui to battle against, and a uniquely unsuited psyche for it.
Because they feel emotions far stronger than humans, and have a massively longer life span, they not only feel boredom more keenly, but are more exposed to it.
In the Imperium? Some can live ridiculous lifespans thanks to rejuveanat treatements, or in the case of Mechanicus, constant bionic tinkering. But most don't have that luxury.
With modern medicine, we can live a full, independent life into our 80's (unless our brain's give up/out) quite easily - and in the Imperium probably a good bit longer than that. But still nowhere near the Eldar life span. So the chances of a humanity getting that bored, and then debauched to stave off the ennui is massively reduced.
Bobthehero wrote: Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck
Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).
This. I find all these superpowered characters frankly tedious.
The heroes of the Imperium should be the billions of low-level humans (space marines included) that face off daily against the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy, and through sheer grit and determination achieve victory (or don't, as the case may be).
It's a very relatable struggle, and genuinely feels very epic. A very compelling backdrop against which to tell your story.
Compare that to Mr Skipped-Leg-Day towering above everyone else with his flaming Emperor-sword. Despite everything about him being more, he feels considerably less epic. That's because 'epic' doesn't mean 'massive flaming sword'. Epic means 'little man struggles against cosmic terror, emerging victorious despite the odds'.
With that as a backdrop, I'm perfectly happy with Chaos having Daemon Primarchs and the Imperium not. It actually puts the struggle into the Imperium's fight.
Saying that, I was equally concerned about the Eldar Triumvirate, although for different reasons. I was actually pleasantly surprised with how they handled it. No forced merging of factions, plenty of doors open to do what you want with your armies. Yet to see how the actual story unfolds, but from the feel of it it actually adds to the setting, rather than detracting. Roll with the changes, as Unusual Suspect suggests
Unfortunately the release of Guilliman feels a step further than that, but I'm still reserving judgement until the actual story pans out. There's scope for some really interesting and unexpected things to happen, but if it's just 'Guilliman returns and kicks Chaos' ass!' then that will be very disappointing. They've just actually succeeded in making Chaos feel like an actual threat (destroying Cadia and Fenris). It'd be a shame if they threw that away.
Well, in that respect we have the surprise of Guilliman's resurrection - Abaddon couldn't have planned for that, especially as it seems Ynnead has some kind of hand in it.
So when an unplanned for military genius with absolute authority grabs the reins, of course you're going to take an absolute kicking straight off the bat - particularly as it seems Abaddon wouldn't tie himself up in Ultramar, but send a key lackey.
Now, what happens after that is very interesting to me. How does Abaddon react? We've already seen him regret a vainglorious moment at Cadia - will he resist, or does Guilliman represent too important a factor to Imperial Morale to leave be?
Concerned that they've just built Chaos up to be a credible threat and are now going to throw it all away in the Spiritual Lieging of all Spiritual Lieges.
I'm hopeful that they will bring more nuance to the fluff than the model suggests. The Eldar release was better than I'd thought.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Concerned that they've just built Chaos up to be a credible threat and are now going to throw it all away in the Spiritual Lieging of all Spiritual Lieges.
I'm hopeful that they will bring more nuance to the fluff than the model suggests. The Eldar release was better than I'd thought.
Jury's still out.
And it can't help but be out until the book is in our collective sweaty mitts, and the word's thoroughly digested.
Me, reckon I'm going to pick it up and head to pub for a quiet drink and a dashed good read. Shall do that this Saturday as well. Because I can! Being a grown up rules!
I personally love it, and say it's about time. One of the most epic parts of the lore is finally making a tabletop appearance! In this new world of Imperial Knights, scat-bike spam, Wraithknights, crazy powerful formations, and allies everywhere, why NOT have Primarchs return? The fan base clearly wants them, GW clearly wants to make them, and people have been complaining for years about the story not advancing - well, now it's advancing. Looking forward to more Primarchs and other awesome models.
I'm excited about the return of Guilliman, but worried. I've already heard rumors of a battle on Terra coming soon. If and when that were to ever happen, it shouldn't happen for years. The reintroduction of a primarch in the 40k setting is massive. Everything in the imperium is about to change and GW should take the time to reflect that. If GW rushes it, its just going to ruin the setting and divide the community. I've already decided if they ruin the lore, I'm just going to pretend all the recent events never happened & pretend I am back in 3rd edition lore wise.
From what we've gleaned about Ynnead, and the broad suggest of Guilliman's return, it does seem that GW are engineering in schism type background.
Now that doesn't mean 'soon as Chaos has it's teeth kicked out, OPEN CIVIL WAR EVERYWHARRRRR!'. but does give them a chance to create tension within the Imperium and the Eldar.
I mean, let's consider Guilliman.
His most lasting legacy was to de-centralise military power, and for very good reason. He didn't claim control over the whole Imperium, but did sit as a High Lord of Terra.
Where does that leave him now? Is he able to simply reclaim his seat, seeing as he never actually abdicated it (unless I'm missing background, always a strong possibility)?
Will he view the current state of The Imperium as a failure of concept, and try to take over on his own? I mean, he is arguably an entirely legitimate heir to his Father's legacy, being so far the only surviving 'Son'.
Whichever route he goes down, how well will his authority be accepted?
Will he view the Ecclesiarchy as a necessary evil, or might Celestine's unique existence suggest they're actually right, and The Emperor is now diving in Himself, especially now it's pretty apparent The Imperial Truth (there are no gods etc) is patently bogus.
So much could come of this, and I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with it.
Personally I liked it better when everything about the heresy was vague myths and legends including the primarchs other than them being around at one point and then disappeared or died or whatever. Adding them back in my opinion makes for lamb fly that's just going to make it a clash of Super Heroes instead of about armies. As much as I like Warmachine, which has the same sort of you always have a name special character, I don't think that approach ever worked well in 40K period on top of the chances are the fluff is going to be completely contrived. He will come back Save the Day and go on as though nothing happened
I'm actually glad other people are seeing that this isn't necessarily the silver lining it may initially look like given Gulliman's aversion to referring to the emperor as a god. Me and a friend were actually discussing how the High Lords of Terra would react to the return of a Primarch. Would they be relieved only to be shot down when he despises all they have done? Will they want to keep him away from Terra in fear that they would be deposed? would they declare him corrupted by chaos for surviving a cursed wound?
My personal opinion is that Gulliman is going to cause more strife in the Imperium than good, Not intentionally to try to tear it apart, but because of a clash of ideals. coming back to what an earlier poster mentioned, The Imperium Secundus.
From a rules perspective, meh. Let's see the rules, let's see the impact he has on the game. If Magnus is any indicator, he's going to be OP and only used in a few scenarios.
From a fluff perspective, I appreciate him being back, but am weary of GW's pace in advancing the narrative. Bringing back 2 Primarch, introducing a new Eldar God, etc - that's a lot for so short a time.
But Guilliman is a figure that could, fluffwise, actually be a leader rather than just a killer.
Agreed - it could be a much more interesting move by Gw for the background than "RAAAH Leman Russ comes back to fight Magnus" - yawn.
RG shoud be someone who can actually try and reform elements of the Imperium and he does have the authority to do it. How he will cope with the massive changes to everythig he fought for should be interesting.
That's not that well shown in the table though. Bet he'll be uber fighter with flaming sword and kills GD's for lunch.
We know the Imperium pretty much lies in tatters, and that it's about as far from The Emperor's original plan as you can get without everyone having to given Daemon's piggy-back rides for the rest of eternity.
And Guilliman would surely be able to know, being a paragon of Statesmanship (Statesmanhood? Whatevs!) that he'd likely be very careful not to rock the boat, and definitely not to do so right now when The Imperium is facing it's darkest hour ever.
And that in turn leaves The Imperium exposed to just as much as risk as if Guilliman decided 'nope, everyone listen to me. I'm in charge. I knew my Dad. Military genius. All your war are belong to me', because it heavily stymies his ability to marshall forces.
I mean, this is guy not so much used to having an entire Legion at his disposal, but an Empire within an Empire at his beck and call. He's used to doing things on a ludicrous scale, because that's what he was created to do in the first place.
And now, it seems his miraculous return is at least in part (and how much of that part remains to be seen) down to filthy Xenos and their Dirty God.
Now, given time I'm sure most of it could be hammered out - that's what Guilliman does. But time....time he simply doesn't have. So he needs to take control, without being perceived as seizing control.
RuneGrey wrote:Guilliman isn't going to take the current state of the Empire well, and he's going to want to fix things. But the High Lords are unlikley to just kindly give up power and allow the original High Lord of Terra to resume his position in command of the Empire, and the Ecclesiarchy will likely proclaim him a daemon and fake when he tells them to knock it off with the Emperor worship. Which means that if Gulliman isn't able to remake the Empire in what he believes it should be, he's likely to do what he always has: lead by example.
Could this be what was rumoured that a Loyalist Primarch will change sides? Maybe not turn to Chaos but not become a "loyalist"?
I dunno about it all, it's interesting that they've ramped up to bringing a Primarch out to play, but I can't help thinking about Valten from Warhammer Fantasy. Turns up, kicks ass in an hour of need, conveniently killed off so the setting didn't get wrecked...
I think it's lame in terms of the effect it'll have on the overall setting, I think it's lame because it puts the focus even more on a few named characters, I think it's lame because now he'll start turning up in every backwater skirmish in the 40K universe, I think it's lame because I don't like the figure and I think it's lame because if they absolutely insisted on bringing back a loyalist primarch, it could at least have been one of the interesting ones. Overall, I'll be swerving the whole sorry business.
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Sudowoodo1 wrote: I dunno about it all, it's interesting that they've ramped up to bringing a Primarch out to play, but I can't help thinking about Valten from Warhammer Fantasy. Turns up, kicks ass in an hour of need, conveniently killed off so the setting didn't get wrecked...
I'd love it if they brought him back just to get banged out again, and everything goes back to normal for 8th ed.
I hope that it causes a split in the Imperium. The High Lords have always been shown to be basically useless bureaucrats, desperately clinging to anything that gives them power. Having a Primarch return throws a monkey wrench into that, because they are probably fearful he will take control.
Wayniac wrote: I hope that it causes a split in the Imperium. The High Lords have always been shown to be basically useless bureaucrats, desperately clinging to anything that gives them power. Having a Primarch return throws a monkey wrench into that, because they are probably fearful he will take control.
I disagree. Given the sheer scale of the Imperium, that it functions at all is a major miracle, and that's down to the High Lords.
Considering they are both from the same era I don't really understand why people have a problem with the ornate armour. It's a level of consistency between 30k and 40k we've rarely seen.
But yeah, the posing, proportions and size of the model are all pretty much balls.
I think it's interesting. The Forge World sculpt is much better IMHO than this GW version of Guillimon. Perhaps we'll also get some more Daemon Prince Primarchs like Angron and Mortarion. Or even another Loyalist Primarch like Vulcan or Lion'el Johnson (spelling?).
I liked Gathering Storm I. I am not an Eldar player, so Gathering Storm II doesn't appeal to me, but perhaps I should read it as they are probably important for Gathering Storm III.
I'm pleased with this, although I would have preferred another Primarch. As has been said, the Imperium is now the antithesis of what the Emperors vision was. Gulliman will kick back against that. Also, a counterpoint to Abbadon?
As a Loyalist model, sure. As a Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince, it actually looks pretty cool.
Seriously, dude looks like he's in Thousand son armour:
... Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince... in Thousand son armour...
Yeah but, is that what they were going for? I mean didn't they just have one of those like, 2 months ago?
Magnus is a T7 Daemon Primarch and is about as tall as an Imperial Knight. Daemon PRINCES are only T5 and are only about as big as Dreadnaughts.
Hence, I suspect they're will be tons of Gilliam DP conversions in the near future.
I'd hoped it would be the Lion, but there is an argument in favor of Guilliman. Ultramar has always been an empire within the Imperium. If the Imperium falls to the 13th Black Crusade, Ultramar gives the remaining forces somewhere to fall back to, and Guilliman becomes the leader who can rally them. So, there could somewhere down the line be a Chaos Ascendant edition, but with mankind not down for the count.
It also sets up the possibility of a division within the Imperium. Many people complain about the Imperium being too big as a faction. Imagine if it broke down along sub-faction lines. You'd have the Ecclesiarchy clinging to their God-Emperor beliefs, taking the Sisters of Battle with them. Then you could have the Mechanicus fracturing off to do their own thing. The High Lords could get the Imperial Guard and be fighting to keep the Imperium the way it wasy. Then you'd have the Space Marines, maybe reconstituted as the legions, maybe not, but with their Primarchs returned fighting for the Emperor's vision for mankind. They'd all be Allies of Convenience to each other instead of Battle Brothers. Might even make room for some new units or even armies - the Space Marine faction could use some IG-like units to do the kinds of things the IG used to do.
You could even have some fracturing within those factions - the Black Templars definitely have the most Ecclesiarchy-friendly leanings. Suppose Dorn doesn't come back, and the Imperial Fists and successors go fully over to worshiping the Emperor as a god? The Iron Hands might slide their loyalty over to the Mechanicus.
Suffice it to say, there's room for some interesting plot developments.
It's also very interesting that Guilliman has decided to chum around with Cypher. That take some of the sting out of not getting the resurgent Lion. Plus, it indicates he might be next.
MarsNZ wrote: Considering they are both from the same era I don't really understand why people have a problem with the ornate armour. It's a level of consistency between 30k and 40k we've rarely seen.
But yeah, the posing, proportions and size of the model are all pretty much balls.
Because 30k Girlyman doesn't look like that and 40k Girlyman's armour was supposedly made by Cawl. So they're not from the same era.
I find it quite shocking how we can have an article in WD from Jes Goodwin talking about army's design vocabularies a few months ago and this... thing appears which looks so out of place next to other SM models is just bizarre.
We know the Imperium pretty much lies in tatters, and that it's about as far from The Emperor's original plan as you can get without everyone having to given Daemon's piggy-back rides for the rest of eternity.
The tears are strong in this thread.
A new slightly bulky marine will do absolute jack to ruin 40k.
Until I see the rules I seriously doubt any normal primarch will do anything to be worse then a wraithknight or worse then Celestine is for the game. A primarch is going to be no worse than most of the other basic infantry lord of wars. Until I start seeing original ctan rules levels of utter balanced gak. I really don't care. Boo hoo there is another bulky marine in the game oh the humanity end times of 40k, all is lost crying can go drown in a toilet.
Now you can cry about fluff but again it's a complete joke in the overt extravagant sci fi soap opera fantasy setting that is 40k. So crying how one super soldier coming back is worse then the million of other super soldiers already in the game is a complete and utter joke.
I was personally pulling for Dorn, primarily because I saw him as the ideal candidate amongst the loyalist primarchs to flip out over what the Imperium has become and try to change it back to his father's ideal (somehow blaming Guilliman and his book in the process).
Guilliman is not a bad second choice, though. I could absolutely see him playing the same role I would want Dorn to serve on the story, but the key differences between their characters are such that I would have an easier time believing that reformations under Dorn could lead to a schism rather than under Guilliman.
Between them, Guilliman and Dorn are the most 'grounded' of the primarchs. Even though the Fists emphasize siege warfare and the Ultramarines are space romans, the baseline of what a space marine is is there somewhere between the two legions. I imagine if Dorn was to show up the two would butt heads along the same lines as such a schism.
I like the Ultramarines and I like Guilliman as a primarch. But I don't think they should be bringing back any of the primarchs as characters for the current game. The game should be about the lowly squads of troops, not bigger and larger vehicles, creatures, monsters or characters. Unfortunately the game has been going that way for awhile. I also don't think Guilliman or any of the primarchs would get involved in a battle of the tabletop size. They should be back behind the lines looking at the grand strategy, not shooting or hacking some unit. The only way they should be involved in the fighting is if their was an attack on their command center or if they really screwed up and their forces were overrun.
bbekins wrote: I like the Ultramarines and I like Guilliman as a primarch. But I don't think they should be bringing back any of the primarchs as characters for the current game. The game should be about the lowly squads of troops, not bigger and larger vehicles, creatures, monsters or characters. Unfortunately the game has been going that way for awhile. I also don't think Guilliman or any of the primarchs would get involved in a battle of the tabletop size. They should be back behind the lines looking at the grand strategy, not shooting or hacking some unit. The only way they should be involved in the fighting is if their was an attack on their command center or if they really screwed up and their forces were overrun.
Like, say, if the 13th Black Crusade was banging on Ultramar's door and the fighting went as far as the very door to Guilliman's stasis chamber?
Because that's the rumor of what happened before RG woke up to kick ass and chew bubblegum (and in the grim, dark future, there is no bubblegum).
That would be a reason for Guilliman to return. But its not a reason for GW to make a figure and rules for people to use him as a character in their game.
bbekins wrote: That would be a reason for Guilliman to return. But its not a reason for GW to make a figure and rules for people to use him as a character in their game.
I think of it like I think of the inclusion of Artillery - if the enemy is close enough that they need to be represented as a model rather than Large Blasts of Death that you call in from afar, SOMETHING is fethed up with your battle plan. That doesn't mean Artillery wouldn't have a place in the 40k tabletop, since we're dealing with all sorts of scenarios that can include major feth-ups - including, but not limited to, the situation I described above, and the situations you yourself described initially, for the inclusion of a Primarch like RG (editted for clarity).
Also, RG is the only loyalist Primarch known to be around - his presence on a battlefield may well be worth more now for symbolism/morale purposes, despite the fact that his expertise is more towards the side of logistics.
Ginjitzu wrote:Anyone else find his model kind of... derpy?
It seems like that with a lot of GW models lately. Thing is, no matter how derpy they look from the beginning, they grow on you or the worst, look ok because you get use to it. Even the Taurox doesn't look so horrible as it once did before.
Bobthehero wrote: Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck
Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).
This. I find all these superpowered characters frankly tedious.
The heroes of the Imperium should be the billions of low-level humans (space marines included) that face off daily against the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy, and through sheer grit and determination achieve victory (or don't, as the case may be).
It's a very relatable struggle, and genuinely feels very epic. A very compelling backdrop against which to tell your story.
Compare that to Mr Skipped-Leg-Day towering above everyone else with his flaming Emperor-sword. Despite everything about him being more, he feels considerably less epic. That's because 'epic' doesn't mean 'massive flaming sword'. Epic means 'little man struggles against cosmic terror, emerging victorious despite the odds'.
With that as a backdrop, I'm perfectly happy with Chaos having Daemon Primarchs and the Imperium not. It actually puts the struggle into the Imperium's fight.
Saying that, I was equally concerned about the Eldar Triumvirate, although for different reasons. I was actually pleasantly surprised with how they handled it. No forced merging of factions, plenty of doors open to do what you want with your armies. Yet to see how the actual story unfolds, but from the feel of it it actually adds to the setting, rather than detracting. Roll with the changes, as Unusual Suspect suggests
Unfortunately the release of Guilliman feels a step further than that, but I'm still reserving judgement until the actual story pans out. There's scope for some really interesting and unexpected things to happen, but if it's just 'Guilliman returns and kicks Chaos' ass!' then that will be very disappointing. They've just actually succeeded in making Chaos feel like an actual threat (destroying Cadia and Fenris). It'd be a shame if they threw that away.
See, what you've done wrong here is mistake Guilliman for the protagonist.
No, you see, Abaddon is the 'little' man struggling against the against the cosmic terror of the autocratic Emperor and his monstrous 'primarch', and, against all odds, perhaps he'll be victorious and forge an diabolic empire a-new.
mrhappyface wrote: IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?
The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.
If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?
mrhappyface wrote: IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?
The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.
If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?
Considering that's (do feth-all) what Lorgar has done across all editions... yes.
As a Loyalist model, sure. As a Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince, it actually looks pretty cool.
Seriously, dude looks like he's in Thousand son armour:
... Chaos Space marine Daemon Prince... in Thousand son armour...
Yeah but, is that what they were going for? I mean didn't they just have one of those like, 2 months ago?
Magnus is a T7 Daemon Primarch and is about as tall as an Imperial Knight. Daemon PRINCES are only T5 and are only about as big as Dreadnaughts.
Hence, I suspect they're will be tons of Gilliam DP conversions in the near future.
-
He is just wildly out of proportion. He looks like he is going to tower over Abbadon, who is wearing TDA and weidling Horus's Talon.
mrhappyface wrote: IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?
The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.
If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?
I don't know why this was directed at my post but yes: Logar has been sat on his Daemon planet for 10,000 years, presumeably planning something.
Ok I do like the model don't know why but I do and I hate ultra smurfs. I think if the new edition of 40k ends up more like 30k it will be ok for these guys to come back.
I do get the feeling that the new 40k will head in the 30k direction just by the releases of the traitor legions book giving the army fluff rules reason for different legeions.
I am so think that there may be alot more condensing of factions eldar all under one banner imperial force under one banner no more allies in a sense but mixed army's being part of the rules rather than the tact on rules of allies we have now basicly I think the way aos has went with order, destruction and so on.
Like choas deamons, marines and cultists all in one (reason I say cultists is you so know with the success of the g cults they will end up getting there day).
Bobthehero wrote: Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck
Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).
This. I find all these superpowered characters frankly tedious.
The heroes of the Imperium should be the billions of low-level humans (space marines included) that face off daily against the unimaginable horrors of the galaxy, and through sheer grit and determination achieve victory (or don't, as the case may be).
It's a very relatable struggle, and genuinely feels very epic. A very compelling backdrop against which to tell your story.
Compare that to Mr Skipped-Leg-Day towering above everyone else with his flaming Emperor-sword. Despite everything about him being more, he feels considerably less epic. That's because 'epic' doesn't mean 'massive flaming sword'. Epic means 'little man struggles against cosmic terror, emerging victorious despite the odds'.
With that as a backdrop, I'm perfectly happy with Chaos having Daemon Primarchs and the Imperium not. It actually puts the struggle into the Imperium's fight.
Saying that, I was equally concerned about the Eldar Triumvirate, although for different reasons. I was actually pleasantly surprised with how they handled it. No forced merging of factions, plenty of doors open to do what you want with your armies. Yet to see how the actual story unfolds, but from the feel of it it actually adds to the setting, rather than detracting. Roll with the changes, as Unusual Suspect suggests
Unfortunately the release of Guilliman feels a step further than that, but I'm still reserving judgement until the actual story pans out. There's scope for some really interesting and unexpected things to happen, but if it's just 'Guilliman returns and kicks Chaos' ass!' then that will be very disappointing. They've just actually succeeded in making Chaos feel like an actual threat (destroying Cadia and Fenris). It'd be a shame if they threw that away.
See, what you've done wrong here is mistake Guilliman for the protagonist.
No, you see, Abaddon is the 'little' man struggling against the against the cosmic terror of the autocratic Emperor and his monstrous 'primarch', and, against all odds, perhaps he'll be victorious and forge an diabolic empire a-new.
You beautiful person! I think you may have just fixed this for me
mrhappyface wrote: IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?
The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.
If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?
I don't know why this was directed at my post but yes: Logar has been sat on his Daemon planet for 10,000 years, presumeably planning something.
we dunno if thats the case or if he's been involved in demonic politics, for all we know he's spent the alst 10 thousand years fighting with Belakor over the spotlight
mrhappyface wrote: IMO there could have been far better returns: Russ bursts forth from the warp when Magnus was fighting on Fenris, Trazyn could have released Dorn upon Cadia in an attempt to prevent it's fall, the survivors of Cadia could have found Khan in the webway, etc. I think it's really sloppy that Cawl just happened to have a cure for the corrupted wound of Guilliman's slit throat, that a Daemon Primarch had dealt him! Where had Cawl been hiding this technology for the last several thousand years?
The only thing that could make up for this is if the poisoned blades of Fulgrim had partially corrupted Rupert and he will unintentially do something in the campaign that dooms the Imperium.
If there was any hope of ever bringing Guilliman back, why wasnt his sleeping corpse a target for the forces of chaos. You are telling me the word bearers legion has just been sitting around for 10,000 years ignoring him?
LOL I don't think there's a force in the universe strong enough to take Macragge.
Vaktathi wrote: Personally I'm not a terribly huge fan of bringing characters like Primarch's into 40k. They were always background figures, somewhat mysterious and unknown in many ways, shrouded in legend and myth.
Making them tabletop units with rules and an actual model and everything takes a lot of that away, and detracts from the characters the 40k setting has been based around forever. It feels like GW has run out of ideas and is reaching for just anything to push out for another monthly release. It also gets into character units that are just so ridiculously powerful that their use seems...obscene, even if the rules aren't necessarily OP.
I have much the same feeling toward the HH stuff in general, but at least there it's in a timeline centered around the actions of these figures, bringing them back for 40k feels...hamfisted.
Now, in some ways, I would not necessarily have been opposed to a 40k "end times" and story reboot where some of these characters could be reintroduced like Age of Sigmar, which would make more sense (albeit handled differently than GW did AoS), but for normal 40k I'm just not a fan.
GW really seems to have just lost its ability to create truly interesting new stuff, with no Priestly or Chambers or the like it really feels like GW is just coasting on material written decades ago and doesn't have the originality to create something truly without it being painfully product oriented or a reimagining of older eras.
Pretty much this, I wish GW would go back to an emphasis on actual armies instead of going for characters that have to constantly one up each other in terms of power.
BrianDavion wrote: when GW creates new things people bitch whine and moan. see centurions.
Centurions seem weird to me, Space Marines already have a heavier amoured version of themselves (Terminators) what role do Centurions fulfill that can't be done by Terminators?
Cheesecat wrote:Pretty much this, I wish GW would go back to an emphasis on actual armies instead of going for characters that have to constantly one up each other in terms of power.
I'm going to assume you're talking about the lore because most of the complaining I see about overpowered stuff on the tabletop in 40k is about the armies themselves (Eldar, MSU space marines). In the lore, the special characters have always been ridiculously over the top. The entire Armageddon campaign hung on Ghazghkrull being the most ridiculously gifted strategic commander the Orks have ever had, Lord Solar Macharius conquered nearly a thousand worlds in seven years, Lucius the Eternal literally can't die, etc, etc.
A loyalist Primarch coming back doesn't really feel that ridiculous when the Daemon Primarchs are still kicking around. In fact, the Emperor himself could strap into a Golden Throne TItan class walker and Kaldor Draigo would still probably be the most ridiculous character running around the lore.
BrianDavion wrote:we dunno if thats the case or if he's been involved in demonic politics, for all we know he's spent the alst 10 thousand years fighting with Belakor over the spotlight
iirc most of the Daemon Primarchs are just sorta doing nothing on their various daemon worlds. Even if they were focused on the Great Game, it's still odd they don't have more time for fighting the Imperium given it's literally what defined them.
BrianDavion wrote:when GW creates new things people bitch whine and moan. see centurions.
For me the return of Girlyman symbols the end of my armies validation in 40K. As the meta shifts from armies of infantry and tanks to big mary-sue special units and deathstars I, and may others, are questioning our reasons for staying within the game as our armies become less and less relevant in the face of the growing numbers of super units are basically forcing us into irrelevance, especially as the armies with these mary sue monsters still dislike or outright refuse to face the bigger tanks like Shadowswords, or macrocannon bunkers, units that are the only way we can realistically face the big threats.
So to me, Guilliman symbolises the end f 40K and the beginning of the new age of bolter porn.
BrianDavion wrote: when GW creates new things people bitch whine and moan. see centurions.
Then come the whiners who whine about the whiners, and the circle is completed.
Yes one post is always worth as much as a hundred. Certainly.
Nevertheless, I feel indifferent. At the end of the day I'm fairly positive he'll barely shift ever so slightly the status quo. Not much but enough for a change for those who wanted it.
I'm wary of what GW will do with the story, as they always seem to feth it all up in the end. As a survivor of storm of chaos and WFB, I really just don't trust them to tell a compelling story.
Regarding Guilliman, he was an obvious choice and also the most interesting, besides those that are generally considered truly gone, like sanguinius. He was by far the most human of the primarchs, eminiently practical, annoyingly idealistic despite that, and also the only prim arch apart from Horus supremely capable as both a general and statesman.
I think those expecting him to freak out forget that he is capable of compromise, unlike Dorn, and also that he was one of the few primarchs who actually appreciated his brothers and their legions. He's probably the only primarch capable of garnering the respect of his brothers remaining warriors and their successors.
Also, lets not forget he was absolutely around and a part of the imperium after the battle of terra. Indeed, he is probably the only reason it survived at all. The fact that he was wise enough to lean on the plans of malcador is actually a credit to his character rather than a flaw or shortcoming. I doubt he'd be as shocked by the current state of things as some would think. He knows about chaos, he knows and accepted the original imperial truth was shown to false (or at least not realized yet), and indeed was the quickest to reintroduce the librarius in his own legion with very partial information. One would assume he was involved in the creation of things like the grey knights as well, or at least knew of them.
His breaking up of the legions showed a willingness to make hard choices at need. That he did all this without the actual authority of being emperor, and rather was able to rally even his remaining brothers behind his vision shows a level of personal leadership not seen outside of the emperor or Horus.
Rather than making him boring, I find his character and his sons and successors to be intriguing beacons in an otherwise over the top grim dark setting. Their stubbornness and adherence to an ideal so long and viciously besieged marks them as truly, the Ultra-Marines of the Emperors legions.
I mean if any character with any thing that makes them better then some other people is a Mary Sue sure. I guess we can say most named characters are Mary Sues then like Creed and Yorick because they are better then their comrades.
People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue, in its original context was really bad Star Trek fan fiction that supplanted established characters at their own jobs. Basically anyone who magically wins somehow and has skills that are needed in the moment without any rhyme or reason, often they are the center of attention at all times even when trying to be edgy (ugghh why do these boys always ask me to dances?). Draigo is a good example of this, since he practically has no personality of his own and accomplishes seemingly impossible deeds for no good reason, which is why the internet loves to make him an insane warp dust addict.
Guilliman is not a Mary Sue. He has the abilities of a statesman because he spent his formative years building nations with his father, the King of Macragge. He saw his home planet ravaged by chaos and strife as the result of petty politics and greed and that is why he has become the anal retentive organizer of government paper pushers. He's not perfect and he sticks too much to tradition and frequently treats people who are trying to rise to power like garbage, but has a great respect for the little people who make civilization work. He also waaaay overthinks his tactics and stayed around making sure all of his conquered worlds could sustain themselves, moving at a glacial pace compared to Horus or Russ in the conquest department. Heck, his great achievement of the Codex was generally unpopular and I would assume having the largest legion he wouldn't want to lose them all to chapters but he did it anyway. Hell, he could have simply taken up the mantle of New Emperor and probably gotten away with it if he tried hard enough but his background dictated that he was not a fan of power grabs.
People don't like him because he comes off as a holier than thou type whose worlds are nice and perfect, not realizing he spent more of his time making them that way than running around punching xenos or consorting with chaos nuttiness. If anything his head for supplies and organization make him the eternal enemy of chaos and he wins wars not through the gallantry of his men (which they still have in spades) but by the oldest of mantras "an army travels on its stomach."
Now Calgar and Sicarius, they definitely fit the bill (although some novels have made Sicarius an arrogant jerk so he would be drifting away from that)
If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.
1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,
2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.
1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.
2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Guilliman would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!
1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,
2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.
1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.
2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Dorn would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!
I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.
I think that GW didn't pick Rogal Dorn because he'd be too similar to Donald Trump.
Think about it, his strategy for dealing with this crisis most likely would have been to build a giant (and glorious) wall and make the forces of chaos pay for it (in blood).
1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,
2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.
1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.
2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Dorn would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!
I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.
I think that GW didn't pick Rogal Dorn because he'd be too similar to Donald Trump.
Think about it, his strategy for dealing with this crisis most likely would have been to build a giant (and glorious) wall and make the forces of chaos pay.
In a galaxy of Xenophobes, extremists and dictatorships (all in the 'good' factions) I don't think GW would be too bothered about a character resembling a controversial polititian.
kronk wrote: 2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Guilliman would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!
I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.
Edit: I meant to say Guillimon. Not Dorn.
That's the whole reason I think it would have been better for someone else to show up. Surely it'd be more entertaining for an unpredictable arse kicker to show up instead.
TheCustomLime wrote: They're going to pull another Vulcan and kill him off without doing anything interesting with him.
While I think Guilliman being sidelined is at least somewhat probable (eventually), I doubt he'll be killed off permanently - I think banishment/quest to the warp, ala his brother (or to find his brothers) is much more likely, and even getting another wounded-to-the-point-of-death-back-to-the-stasis-chamber-you-go seems more likely than a permakill.
Heck, he could just end up sidelined into being Logician of the Empire, basically glued to his High Lord of Terra seat pushing paper like the premium paper pusher he is, trying (and still failing) to stave off the death of the Imperium for another thousand years (Gotta make sure Ciaphas Cain's timeline is correct, y'know).
Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.
Grimdark always being grim is as boring as constant noblebright. You need some beacon of hope otherwise the setting devolves into pointless cynicism.
1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,
2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.
1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.
2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Dorn would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!
I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.
I think that GW didn't pick Rogal Dorn because he'd be too similar to Donald Trump.
Think about it, his strategy for dealing with this crisis most likely would have been to build a giant (and glorious) wall and make the forces of chaos pay.
In a galaxy of Xenophobes, extremists and dictatorships (all in the 'good' factions) I don't think GW would be too bothered about a character resembling a controversial polititian.
TheCustomLime wrote: They're going to pull another Vulcan and kill him off without doing anything interesting with him.
While I think Guilliman being sidelined is at least somewhat probable (eventually), I doubt he'll be killed off permanently - I think banishment/quest to the warp, ala his brother (or to find his brothers) is much more likely, and even getting another wounded-to-the-point-of-death-back-to-the-stasis-chamber-you-go seems more likely than a permakill.
Heck, he could just end up sidelined into being Logician of the Empire, basically glued to his High Lord of Terra seat pushing paper like the premium paper pusher he is, trying (and still failing) to stave off the death of the Imperium for another thousand years (Gotta make sure Ciaphas Cain's timeline is correct, y'know).
True, but this is modern GW we are talking about. If a character isn't going to be center stage they have either die horribly or, as you said, vanish into the ether. Guilliman being relegated to being Paper Pusher Primus would be too subtle for them.
1. People throw that word around too much. Mary Sue,
2. If you wanted to save the Imperium Rowboat is the best man for the job. He wants organization, he wants people to be safe and prosperous, he also plans ahead for what happens after the war. He's still a primarch so he's no slouch at close combat either, but he won't be a juggernaut like Russ or Angron. Im sure he will be displeased by the ecclesiarchy (but if I recall he really didnt care much about religion as long as you were pro Emp), but I think he will be more horrorified by the incredible amount of waste in lives that the Imperium engages in on a daily basis.
1. I 100% agree. People online overuse the term, along with "special snowflake" so much, they have lost their meaning. Also, it is used in the wrong context 82% of the time. That's a FACT. I have charts and diagrams.
2. I know it's a fictional universe, and I'm going to say this even though I am the President of the Rogal Dorn fanclub of Lake County, IL, but Dorn would be my choice to lead the Imperium in the year 40,000. When you're 3 minutes from midnight of all hell breaking loose, I want a determined, calm, collected mother fether to move those pieces where they need to be and donkey punch old Abbadon back into the Eye of Terror. And send half of the High Lords of Terra with him for good measure!
I don't have a problem with old Stick in the Mud.
I think that GW didn't pick Rogal Dorn because he'd be too similar to Donald Trump.
Think about it, his strategy for dealing with this crisis most likely would have been to build a giant (and glorious) wall and make the forces of chaos pay.
In a galaxy of Xenophobes, extremists and dictatorships (all in the 'good' factions) I don't think GW would be too bothered about a character resembling a controversial polititian.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.
Grimdark always being grim is as boring as constant noblebright. You need some beacon of hope otherwise the setting devolves into pointless cynicism.
Giantwalkingchair wrote:Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.
The Ultramarines have been around for longer than most of the current setting.
The Ultramarines, post the 5th edition travesty, are hardly what you describe. They are:
Unspecialised - they have no real expertise in a single skill, preferring equal temperance, unlike every other first founder.
Indoctrinated - they blindly follow the Codex, even leading to some massive battlefield losses when faced with the unknown (the Invasions of Macragge - in Tyranid and Chaos flavours)
Average - They have no SUPAR SEEECRET SECREET SHHHH, which I feel is for the better. It's better when such secrets are kept for a minority. Otherwise, it loses it's novelty.
No-one wishes they were the Ultramarines. The whole "spiritual liege" stuff was left behind two editions ago. The Blood Angels already fill the role of Perfect Sons with the SUPAR SEEECRET SECREET SHHHH - hell, their Primarch has a holiday named after him in the Imperium, and is widely regarded as the most revered Primarch. Barring their flaw, they are the most Noblebright SM chapter. If the UM had a flaw, they would step on the BA's toes.
If we're looking at another Noblebright Chapter, look no further than the Space Wolves. They have barely any lasting consequences to their losses and actions, actively rebelling against the Inquisition and suffering no rebuttal. The ONLY thing they've actually suffered from was the Wrath of Magnus, which even then, they only survive via plot armour.
The Ultramarines, on the other hand, get away with nothing so egregarious. The Battle of Macragge kills many planets in the system, wipes out the First Company, and prompts serious re-organisation of the Chapter. They adapt and move past their near defeat, learning from it.
Being vaguely intelligent is not Noblebright. Being senselessly violent and stupid isn't Grimdark. The most consistent definition of Grimdarkness is that of grim reality. Of all the Space Marine Chapters, the Ultramarines are very realistic. Guilliman is the only sensible Primarch, the only one who focuses on actual development, and his Legion, after realising their own hubris from their dogged devotion to the Codex, begin to re-evaluate it's teachings and adapt. They're sensible. If sensibility is Noblebright, then I'm afraid I don't see it.
I would find it extremely funny if Roboute Guilliman came back but there was something "off" about him and he was acting in a manner completely at odds with how he has been described in the fluff and how his chapter operates currently, putting the Ultramarines in a really awkward position.
RG: "Here's the plan: we're going to do a whole lot of drugs, form up into one great howling mob and run down there and punch them to death."
RG: "Then we'll eat their brains."
SM Captain: "...In the Codex Astartes it is written that--"
RG: "I KNOW WHAT IT SAYS I FETHING WROTE IT THIS TIME WE'RE GOING WITH THE DRUGS AND BRAINS PLAN!"
RG: *twitches and spasms uncontrollably for half a minute*
RG: "Right... okay... fetch me Calgar and some tools, I'm going to need more fists for all this punching."
SM Captain: *cautiously backs out of the room*
This would actually be a horrible decision and I hope GW doesn't do something like it, but it would be funny.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Rowboat and his legion therefore are too Noblebright for the setting. That's probably where a lot of rankling comes from; in a universe so grim dark, these guys stand out as the shining sparkly beacons of purity that evero e wishes they themselves could be. The whole better in every way stick the smurfs have is just something people want to break. I don't think that's a bad thing; personally I would prefer if smurfs were made out to be poster boys for imperium but behind the glits and glam, they were fethed up just like everyone else. People could accept that. But they're not. Smurfs and rowboat are the shining light in the darkness and utterly ultra in every way and it just doesn't fit the setting.
This. Absolutely this. It's the realisation that they're actually sneaky b*stard hypocrites that broke up the legions all the while building their own private empire and surrounding themselves with the little private empires of their loyal successors.
It's the fact that they're actually sneaky devious little sods with this outer sheen of glamourous poster-boys that makes me warm to Ultramarines. Agreed they should really play that up more TBH.
Grimdark always being grim is as boring as constant noblebright. You need some beacon of hope otherwise the setting devolves into pointless cynicism.
I don't buy that. Grimdark is just a state of being. By itself it's neither interesting or not. Same with noblebright.
It's nuance that makes things interesting.
The idea that the Ultras are actually sneaky gits.
The idea that the Dark Eldar harp on about how independent and free they are to make their own choices and live how they want, but in fact their lives are as locked into a path as the Craftworlders they deride.
The idea that the Craftworlders think they've cheated Slaanesh, but if you think about it their focus on perfecting each aspect of their life in turn most likely feeds her just as much as the DEldar.
The idea that Magnus' fall from grace was a result of a colossal misunderstanding, rather than him just being evil.
The idea that no-one really knows what Cypher's motives are. Does he want to kill the Emperor or save him? Even if he wants to save the emperor by killing him, does he know that the sword he carries is one of the few relics in the universe capable of outright killing the Emperor so he can't regenerate?
The idea that the Tau aren't as shiny and noblebright as they once appeared, and that underneath their gleaming exterior is a rotting autocracy every bit as socially unjust as the Imperium.
In fact, I wish they'd go further.
How about bringing some nuance to Chaos' story? Rather than them being traitors, or duped/manipulated by the Chaos Gods, how about add in the possibility that Horus might have been right about the whole Heresy thing. Just the slightest possible suggestion that the Emperor might not have had humanity's best interests in mind, and Horus might just have possibly been acting in the right.
How about the notion that the Necrons might have themselves been creations/early experiments of the Old Ones, completely altering the dynamic between them, the Old Ones and the Eldar from one of stroppy competitors to sentient beings that rebelled against being kept as lab-rats, and furious that their creators made the Eldar so physically perfect while they were suffering.
How about any number of really cool things you can do with the 40k fluff while still keeping it fitting with the grimdark aesthetic?
See, all of those things are really, really interesting things to explore and not a single one needs to be noblebright. By all means have some noblebright to contrast the grimdark, but that needs to be done in a microcosm. Noblebright in the 40k universe needs to be presented as one individual heroic spirit struggling in vain against the oppressive lead weight of grimdark presented in the 40k universe.
Having that noblebright as a goddamn Primarch and his legion of blue goody-two-shoes just doesn't fit.
Hopefully they go all out on the whole 'Guilliman has to come to terms with what the Imperium, and his chapter, have become' and not just wuss-out and make it all about 'guys, you don't need to follow the codex to the letter, jeez'.
Make it so that the Ultras (and Guilliman while you're at it) are just as deeply flawed as the rest of the entire 40k universe. 'Entirely grimdark' is not the same as 'grimderp', which is grimdark for grimdark's sake without adding nuance.
re the ultramarines being blindly in doctrinated to the point they suffer loses they didn't need to, we don't see much evidance of that. the UMs did pretty well against the 'nids when you compare them to everyone else. one thing to remember is the codex isn't just a book of tactics, I suspect thats not the "most important" part of the codex, and that the bits the UMs follow the most religiously are orginizational. when the Razorback was described as being newer and thus not fully accepted by some conservitive chapters, I always read that as Ultramarines and other "super codex adherant chapters"
Ynneadwraith - you point rests on the Ultramarines having a pocket empire and nearly a full legion at their command, despite ordering others not to do so.
Where's the proof of this?
Ultramar, which is a holding of several systems, is not prohibited by the codex. No-one else was forced to give up their personal empires, mostly because Guilliman's logistical expertise allowed him to create Ultramar. If he had asked the Fists to break up the Phalanx, or the Dark Angels the Rock, that would support your statement. But no other Legion gave up their own domain because they simply didn't have one on the scale of Ultramar. Hell, Ultramar is no more a personal Empire than Nocturne is for the Salamanders, or the Phalanx for the Fists. In fact, it supports the Imperium more than any other chapter homeworld: it musters both Astartes and Guardsmen, despite only needing to tithe Astartes, and boasts a strong agricultural sector.
I wasn't aware being efficient was equivalent to having a pocket empire.
Even so, the Ultramarines lost the most from the deal. They were the largest Legion, with the largest Empire (500 worlds) - all gone by their own primarch's order.
And onto the splitting of the Legion: where does it say that the Ultramarines hold full dominion over their successors, who would follow them in rebellion? Sure, we have a few who are indicated to be of that persuasion (Genesis Chapter), but there are plenty with less ties to Guilliman (Mortifactors), and the vast majority are just as specified as any other successor. Unless every other successor is fanatically loyal to their progenitor?
Speaking of other Chapters being loyal to their progenitor, let's take a look at the Dark Angels, who are confirmed to have a contingency plan to form to Legion strength. They, and their first successors, are all still united, in secret.
Or the Imperial Fists, who have the Last Wall protocol.
Or the Blood Angels, who called their successors to Baal on the onslaught of Leviathan.
Funnily enough, the Ultramarines have never done something like this, despite what you suggest. There's no evidence in current lore they have anything near a Legion in disguise.
Bobthehero wrote: Its going to shift the focus even more on super powered character and its going to suck
Fully agree. I love 40k for the setting and the factions that inhabit the universe. The larger than life characters never appealed to me because they often hog the spotlight and diminish the grimdark aspect of the setting (kinda hard to be grim dark when there are heros with plot armor).
I agree. I find they also diminish the tactical nature of a skirmish game. Guilliman isn't going to be looking for a wall to crouch behind to avoid enemy fire. There's a lot more interesting tactical decisions to be made when the game is a some infantry squads with a couple tanks providing cover and supporting fire than when it's semi-invincible demi-gods walking up to the middle of the table to slug it out.
What game have you been playing? 40k hasn't been skirmish for a good few years now. At least if all the whining on the internet is anything to go by. And my own experience of playing a game of two warlord titans vs ongoing reserves of 20 IKs and a bunch if super heavies + 60 LRs. Not a normal match up, I'll admit, but not one that would be playable in a skirmish game. And my other anecdotal evidence, which is anecdotal and therefore not worth too much.
Ynneadwraith wrote: By all means have some noblebright to contrast the grimdark, but that needs to be done in a microcosm. Noblebright in the 40k universe needs to be presented as one individual heroic spirit struggling in vain against the oppressive lead weight of grimdark presented in the 40k universe.
I like this. I also like it when people try to be noblebright, but they end up doing more harm than good.
Yeah, it's cynical, but I enjoy 40k as an extremely cynical universe where it isn't good guys vs bad guys but bad guys vs worse guys. The "good" guys need to do such horrible things in order to survive that they might not be any better than the "bad" guys (and the bad guys need something to make them more than mustache-twirlers).
I also enjoy the idea of humanity as a bunch of ignorant savages doing the best they can with extremely dangerous technology that they don't understand in a galaxy full of horrifying monsters.
Maybe I enjoy all the grimdark so much because I'm a techno-optimist when it comes to the real world.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ynneadwraith - you point rests on the Ultramarines having a pocket empire and nearly a full legion at their command, despite ordering others not to do so.
Where's the proof of this?
Ultramar, which is a holding of several systems, is not prohibited by the codex. No-one else was forced to give up their personal empires, mostly because Guilliman's logistical expertise allowed him to create Ultramar. If he had asked the Fists to break up the Phalanx, or the Dark Angels the Rock, that would support your statement. But no other Legion gave up their own domain because they simply didn't have one on the scale of Ultramar. Hell, Ultramar is no more a personal Empire than Nocturne is for the Salamanders, or the Phalanx for the Fists. In fact, it supports the Imperium more than any other chapter homeworld: it musters both Astartes and Guardsmen, despite only needing to tithe Astartes, and boasts a strong agricultural sector.
I wasn't aware being efficient was equivalent to having a pocket empire.
Even so, the Ultramarines lost the most from the deal. They were the largest Legion, with the largest Empire (500 worlds) - all gone by their own primarch's order.
And onto the splitting of the Legion: where does it say that the Ultramarines hold full dominion over their successors, who would follow them in rebellion? Sure, we have a few who are indicated to be of that persuasion (Genesis Chapter), but there are plenty with less ties to Guilliman (Mortifactors), and the vast majority are just as specified as any other successor. Unless every other successor is fanatically loyal to their progenitor?
Speaking of other Chapters being loyal to their progenitor, let's take a look at the Dark Angels, who are confirmed to have a contingency plan to form to Legion strength. They, and their first successors, are all still united, in secret.
Or the Imperial Fists, who have the Last Wall protocol.
Or the Blood Angels, who called their successors to Baal on the onslaught of Leviathan.
Funnily enough, the Ultramarines have never done something like this, despite what you suggest. There's no evidence in current lore they have anything near a Legion in disguise.
even though Ultramar was under dire threat and nearly destroyed by the tyranids. which was at least a threat on par with Levithan. (I'd argue perceptionally more so as little was known about the 'nids in comparison)
I understand what you are saying and I mostly agree. But I think a faction that is more noblebright than others is fine. The Ultramarines are a beacon of hope in a vast void of darkness.
How about bringing some nuance to Chaos' story? Rather than them being traitors, or duped/manipulated by the Chaos Gods, how about add in the possibility that Horus might have been right about the whole Heresy thing. Just the slightest possible suggestion that the Emperor might not have had humanity's best interests in mind, and Horus might just have possibly been acting in the right.
In there here and now, I wish they would flesh out a few more chaos characters. These end of times stories basically have abby and belakor who dont have much depth to begin with, and then some redshirts with no depth at all. We know the IoM is getting Cawl, Greyfaux, some grey knight grandmaster, and then celestine and rowboat getting much more depth. Trazyn is also being fleshed out. I havent read much about the Eldar jokers, but they seem to be rather shallow from what I have seen.
It would be neat if they added a "Battle of Legends" style game type, which featured only units of a certain scale, and specific units in support.
Also from a lore perspective this actually makes sense, and also, Cadia falling is important.
Spoiler:
what if those warp pylon things affected the primarchs as well, and a break in the proverbial chain is empowering warp infused creatures? What if the emperor really is a warp deity?
I think it's yet another symptom of the dumbing down of 40k.
It started with the pointless and unnecessary Heresy series which pulls back the cloak of Heresy mythos to show a pantheon of badly written school children squabbling. Then the rules and "herp-derp buy this and you'll win" monsters and formations. Now the Grim Dark setting becomes an episode of Mighty Morphing Power Rangers - lots of brightly coloured super goodies and their improbably large war machines fighting rubber monsters with horns for nipples.
So, the last book in december is going to be Roboute, Lion, Russ, Vulkan and Ferrus Reborn holding off until Dorn, the Khan, The Sanguinor come to break Abaddons fleet, right?
All leading up to a climactic dual between Draigo and Abaddon ascended, right?
On a more serious note, i think the Lion will be the Loyalist that goes renegade. Especially with Cypher appearing to help out Team Loyalist (Roboute + Celestine and Co.). It could be that his Chapter/Legion force him into a corner with their fanatic focus on the Fallen (Roboute coming under attack by Dark Angels and the DA being declared renegades?).
Ynneadwraith wrote: By all means have some noblebright to contrast the grimdark, but that needs to be done in a microcosm. Noblebright in the 40k universe needs to be presented as one individual heroic spirit struggling in vain against the oppressive lead weight of grimdark presented in the 40k universe.
I like this. I also like it when people try to be noblebright, but they end up doing more harm than good.
Yeah, it's cynical, but I enjoy 40k as an extremely cynical universe where it isn't good guys vs bad guys but bad guys vs worse guys. The "good" guys need to do such horrible things in order to survive that they might not be any better than the "bad" guys (and the bad guys need something to make them more than mustache-twirlers).
I also enjoy the idea of humanity as a bunch of ignorant savages doing the best they can with extremely dangerous technology that they don't understand in a galaxy full of horrifying monsters.
Maybe I enjoy all the grimdark so much because I'm a techno-optimist when it comes to the real world.
Thanks man and yeah that's exactly what I find so refreshing about the 40k universe. Everywhere you look in most IPs it's frighteningly obvious who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. In 40k, no-ones' the good guy. The universe is too dangerous to afford the luxury of a moral high ground. Each faction is struggling just to survive.
It's not unique to the 40k universe, but it is one of the cornerstones of its appeal. I sincerely hope that that's remembered amidst all these releases...
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ynneadwraith - you point rests on the Ultramarines having a pocket empire and nearly a full legion at their command, despite ordering others not to do so.
Where's the proof of this?
Spoiler:
Ultramar, which is a holding of several systems, is not prohibited by the codex. No-one else was forced to give up their personal empires, mostly because Guilliman's logistical expertise allowed him to create Ultramar. If he had asked the Fists to break up the Phalanx, or the Dark Angels the Rock, that would support your statement. But no other Legion gave up their own domain because they simply didn't have one on the scale of Ultramar. Hell, Ultramar is no more a personal Empire than Nocturne is for the Salamanders, or the Phalanx for the Fists. In fact, it supports the Imperium more than any other chapter homeworld: it musters both Astartes and Guardsmen, despite only needing to tithe Astartes, and boasts a strong agricultural sector. I wasn't aware being efficient was equivalent to having a pocket empire. Even so, the Ultramarines lost the most from the deal. They were the largest Legion, with the largest Empire (500 worlds) - all gone by their own primarch's order.
And onto the splitting of the Legion: where does it say that the Ultramarines hold full dominion over their successors, who would follow them in rebellion? Sure, we have a few who are indicated to be of that persuasion (Genesis Chapter), but there are plenty with less ties to Guilliman (Mortifactors), and the vast majority are just as specified as any other successor. Unless every other successor is fanatically loyal to their progenitor?
Speaking of other Chapters being loyal to their progenitor, let's take a look at the Dark Angels, who are confirmed to have a contingency plan to form to Legion strength. They, and their first successors, are all still united, in secret. Or the Imperial Fists, who have the Last Wall protocol. Or the Blood Angels, who called their successors to Baal on the onslaught of Leviathan.
Funnily enough, the Ultramarines have never done something like this, despite what you suggest. There's no evidence in current lore they have anything near a Legion in disguise.
Haha! Like all the best conspiracy theories it's circumstantial at best.
The main point that is actually demonstrable is the personal armies thing.
Part of Guilliman's restructuring of the Imperium revolved around splitting up the commands of the Marines, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy so no one person had the resources to invade systems on their own in the event of a rebellion. It makes excellent sense, and was a very shrewd decision in the wake of the Heresy.
For most Legions, they have their handful of recruiting worlds and a light PDF compliment that answers to the planetary governor. However, the Ultramarines have the PDF of an entire sector answering to the sector governor...who lo and behold just so happens to be the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines! What a coincidence!
Everything else on top of that is just suspicious coincidences. Rather than citing their successor chapters as and where the demand requires, they have a habit of citing them on the fringes of the Ultramar system themselves. In the Codex it's strongly implied that these successor chapters still hold a great deal of loyalty towards the Ultramarines.
There's no evidence that the Ultramarines have ever considered rebellion, but it's suspicious that they're one of the very few forces in the Imperium that could legitimately pull it off...
It fits in perfectly with the shrewd political maneuvering expected of Guilliman the Statesman, and gives them a grimdark tinge that helps integrate them better into the wider grimdark of the 40k setting. Plus, it's infinitely more nuanced than the whole 'ultramarines are the gold standard of marines' spiel which is frankly boring more than anything else. No depth to it.
I understand what you are saying and I mostly agree. But I think a faction that is more noblebright than others is fine. The Ultramarines are a beacon of hope in a vast void of darkness.
Oh I absolutely agree, but isn't it just so40k that that beacon of noblebright isn't quite what it seems?
In there here and now, I wish they would flesh out a few more chaos characters. These end of times stories basically have abby and belakor who dont have much depth to begin with, and then some redshirts with no depth at all. We know the IoM is getting Cawl, Greyfaux, some grey knight grandmaster, and then celestine and rowboat getting much more depth. Trazyn is also being fleshed out. I havent read much about the Eldar jokers, but they seem to be rather shallow from what I have seen.
It's depressing.
Agreed. Campaign centreing on Cadia and Chaos...no Chaos or Cadian characters so far...
I think they've given a bit more to Abby in the 1st book, but there's still so much potential with Chaos that's completely untapped.
Focus on why these characters are fighting the Imperium (and not just 'because they're eeeevil'). Perhaps they think they're right about their cause, that they're doing it for the good of humanity. The Chaos Gods might be fickle, but at least they reward success. In the Imperium, success is usually rewarded with a short trip from a Commissar.
Perhaps they feel betrayed by the Imperium that they fought so hard to forge. These are the very Marines that created the Imperium in the first place, and because of the actions of a few their Emperor turned their back on them.
Create new characters with these motivations (or others), and really go to town with them there's still time for a Chaos release of course...
Russell's teapot wrote:I think it's yet another symptom of the dumbing down of 40k.
It started with the pointless and unnecessary Heresy series which pulls back the cloak of Heresy mythos to show a pantheon of badly written school children squabbling. Then the rules and "herp-derp buy this and you'll win" monsters and formations. Now the Grim Dark setting becomes an episode of Mighty Morphing Power Rangers - lots of brightly coloured super goodies and their improbably large war machines fighting rubber monsters with horns for nipples.
Yay! Go Super Mega Marines!
I don't mind the silliness too much. Early 40k had Zoats, Squats and Skaven in space, the giant megazord style robots have been around as long as titans have been a thing. Back in 3rd ed. Tau basically just brought anime mecha into the setting. The lore for 40k almost became a parody of itself during 5th ed because the writers were taking it seriously. I'd take goofy dwarfs in spess any day over Blood Angels bro-fisting Necrons and Grey Knights drenched in the blood of SoB traversing the warp forever killing just everything because they're so cool.
Spoiler:
I realise a lot of that was Ward, but still.
I do agree about the Horus Heresy though, it was essentially the War in Heaven and I'd be happier not knowing the finer details of what exactly happened during it. Still happy Forgeworld made the models though and I've been wanting plastic MKIII armour forever
TheCustomLime wrote: They're going to pull another Vulcan and kill him off without doing anything interesting with him.
While I think Guilliman being sidelined is at least somewhat probable (eventually), I doubt he'll be killed off permanently - I think banishment/quest to the warp, ala his brother (or to find his brothers) is much more likely, and even getting another wounded-to-the-point-of-death-back-to-the-stasis-chamber-you-go seems more likely than a permakill.
Heck, he could just end up sidelined into being Logician of the Empire, basically glued to his High Lord of Terra seat pushing paper like the premium paper pusher he is, trying (and still failing) to stave off the death of the Imperium for another thousand years (Gotta make sure Ciaphas Cain's timeline is correct, y'know).
True, but this is modern GW we are talking about. If a character isn't going to be center stage they have either die horribly or, as you said, vanish into the ether. Guilliman being relegated to being Paper Pusher Primus would be too subtle for them.
Is Guilliman necessarily going to be sidelined or killed off? The galaxy is probably big enough for him to be running around doing stuff without tipping the balance completely in the Imperium's favour. There's loads of Daemon Princes and Necron Lords as old as time, etc, who probably just as powerful, if not more so, and they aren't exactly stomping the galaxy flat.
In any case the Imperium is unlikely to become an unstoppable juggernaught just because Guilliman's back. Regardless of his stance on the current state of the Imperium, his return is going to cause internal friction because it'll disrupt the balance of power. Afterall, the Imperium is huge and full of infighting.
In any case the Imperium is unlikely to become an unstoppable juggernaught just because Guilliman's back.
I think this is an important point. At a certain point we have to remember that Guilliman is still just one man. Yes, he may be a Primarch,and yes he may be the lord of Ultramar, but ultimately I dont think he will be capable of having a massive influence on the Imperium. He can only be in one place at a time, and the Imperium is too vast to feel the impact of one person.
In any case the Imperium is unlikely to become an unstoppable juggernaught just because Guilliman's back.
I think this is an important point. At a certain point we have to remember that Guilliman is still just one man. Yes, he may be a Primarch,and yes he may be the lord of Ultramar, but ultimately I dont think he will be capable of having a massive influence on the Imperium. He can only be in one place at a time, and the Imperium is too vast to feel the impact of one person.
I just hope the writers remember that...
I actually have a little faith that they will. The Eldar story in GS:II was a lot better and more nuanced than I'd feared. There's hope yet
Just one demigod you mean. Aren't all of the primarchs peerless geniuses? I imagine the inspiration stirred by the resurrection of a 10,000 year old legendary superhero will cause quite an upheaval amongst the worlds of the Imperium, even if he does look like a Thousand Sons demon prince.
Just one demigod you mean. Aren't all of the primarchs peerless geniuses? I imagine the inspiration stirred by the resurrection of a 10,000 year old legendary superhero will cause quite an upheaval amongst the worlds of the Imperium, even if he does look like a Thousand Sons demon prince.
Yes, but it could always cause some infighting. Remember, the High Lords of Terra currently lead and if Rowboat comes back, they might not be too happy about him supplanting them as ruler.
Crazyterran wrote: So, the last book in december is going to be Roboute, Lion, Russ, Vulkan and Ferrus Reborn holding off until Dorn, the Khan, The Sanguinor come to break Abaddons fleet, right?
All leading up to a climactic dual between Draigo and Abaddon ascended, right?
On a more serious note, i think the Lion will be the Loyalist that goes renegade. Especially with Cypher appearing to help out Team Loyalist (Roboute + Celestine and Co.). It could be that his Chapter/Legion force him into a corner with their fanatic focus on the Fallen (Roboute coming under attack by Dark Angels and the DA being declared renegades?).
Itll be interesting to see, nonetheless.
I can concur with that, we don't know much about the whole Lion/Luther thing and for all we know it was Luthor who was the loyalist! The only thing is I don't think they would make all DA renegade because that would nullify an entire army list in its traditional setting. They may have the Lion run off with the Renegades however and start having fun in the Eye and Cyhper/Luthor lead the remaining DA to victory.
I don't like bringing this kind of superpowered being on the table, same as Magnus. It cheapens all other characters and monsters. The game is not balanced around them and the other armies just don't have anything lore wise to counter them and feel relevant. What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? They have nothing, any of their characters will get instagibbed. I am talking about the narrative not the gameplay. I think they belong in the myth or they should get a Phoenix Lord treatment.
Yes, but it could always cause some infighting. Remember, the High Lords of Terra currently lead and if Rowboat comes back, they might not be too happy about him supplanting them as ruler.
True, though I wonder how long their resistance would last; I'm not sure they'd have too many supporters. Lots of interesting questions & possibilities. Though I share the opinion that the primarchs serve better as heroic figures of myth, that train has already left the station and now I'm curious to see in what condition it is when it arrives. Hopefully geedubs can yet surprise us all!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arnais wrote: ... What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? ...
Arnais wrote: ... What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? ...
An Eldar god of death maybe?
Yeah but here are a lot more primarchs and demosn primarchs remaining and you are talking about the last chance of their entire race. Fluffwise it would be like the emperor woke up and started fighting again and he was weaker in CC than an Avatar of Khaine.
Arnais wrote: ... What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? ...
A newborn Eldar god of death maybe?
Undercosted and abundant scatter lasers on a super fast platform to destroy the rest of the army.
A pair of wraithknights to destroy the rest of the army.
The rest of the Magnus army is still marines, you know. Or perhaps they are running with Daemons. Eldar still outmatch them.
I am talking about fluff. If a SM or CSM player puts Guiliman or Magnus on the table, you don't have anything in your codex even close to the importance of this characters in the fluff.
I am talking about fluff. If a SM or CSM player puts Guiliman or Magnus on the table, you don't have anything in your codex even close to the importance of this characters in the fluff.
A C-tan shard is a part of a god, right?
As for importance fluff-wise, Eldrad has been around since the Primarchs. Before even, as he told Fulgrim when they met.
There's also the Avatar of Khaine. He' a pretty important dude.
As for stuff being on the table in a standard game, I don't disagree. I'll put Primarchs up there with fliers and super heavy tanks and Imperial Knights. They should only be on the table for Apocalypse games and one-off scenarios.
On the one hand, the 'good' side needs a Primarch to balance out the fact that 'evil' got Magnus.
On the other hand the only Primarch I've only really cared about is Sanguinius and he won't be coming back (and if he does, it'll be for some BS reason)
john27 wrote: I would've liked Ferrus Manus to come back but as a kind of cyber zombie of the mechanicus but only ever wears his helmet
Theres not a whole lot left of him to resurrect, I think the heretics turned his fingers into sacrificial blades and did....things with the rest of him. The Iron Hands do have his skull though.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ynneadwraith - you point rests on the Ultramarines having a pocket empire and nearly a full legion at their command, despite ordering others not to do so.
Where's the proof of this?
Spoiler:
Ultramar, which is a holding of several systems, is not prohibited by the codex. No-one else was forced to give up their personal empires, mostly because Guilliman's logistical expertise allowed him to create Ultramar. If he had asked the Fists to break up the Phalanx, or the Dark Angels the Rock, that would support your statement. But no other Legion gave up their own domain because they simply didn't have one on the scale of Ultramar. Hell, Ultramar is no more a personal Empire than Nocturne is for the Salamanders, or the Phalanx for the Fists. In fact, it supports the Imperium more than any other chapter homeworld: it musters both Astartes and Guardsmen, despite only needing to tithe Astartes, and boasts a strong agricultural sector.
I wasn't aware being efficient was equivalent to having a pocket empire.
Even so, the Ultramarines lost the most from the deal. They were the largest Legion, with the largest Empire (500 worlds) - all gone by their own primarch's order.
And onto the splitting of the Legion: where does it say that the Ultramarines hold full dominion over their successors, who would follow them in rebellion? Sure, we have a few who are indicated to be of that persuasion (Genesis Chapter), but there are plenty with less ties to Guilliman (Mortifactors), and the vast majority are just as specified as any other successor. Unless every other successor is fanatically loyal to their progenitor?
Speaking of other Chapters being loyal to their progenitor, let's take a look at the Dark Angels, who are confirmed to have a contingency plan to form to Legion strength. They, and their first successors, are all still united, in secret.
Or the Imperial Fists, who have the Last Wall protocol.
Or the Blood Angels, who called their successors to Baal on the onslaught of Leviathan.
Funnily enough, the Ultramarines have never done something like this, despite what you suggest. There's no evidence in current lore they have anything near a Legion in disguise.
Haha! Like all the best conspiracy theories it's circumstantial at best.
The main point that is actually demonstrable is the personal armies thing.
Part of Guilliman's restructuring of the Imperium revolved around splitting up the commands of the Marines, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy so no one person had the resources to invade systems on their own in the event of a rebellion. It makes excellent sense, and was a very shrewd decision in the wake of the Heresy.
For most Legions, they have their handful of recruiting worlds and a light PDF compliment that answers to the planetary governor. However, the Ultramarines have the PDF of an entire sector answering to the sector governor...who lo and behold just so happens to be the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines! What a coincidence!
Except that the same power is wielded by both the Castellan of Cadia (assuming pre-999.M41) and the Fabricator-General of Mars. Not to mention that the Rock and fleet, the Phalanx and fleet, and the Space Wolf fleet are all far above the quality of Ultramar's naval assets. So, sure, the Ultramarines get an advantage of their superior logistical design - but the other legions got stuff too, where they earned it.
If Guilliman had broken up the empires and PDFs of another Legion, thats would support your theory. However, no other legion had an empire like the Ultramarines did.
Again, I wasn't aware that getting use out of something you earned was traitorous.
Everything else on top of that is just suspicious coincidences.
Is it? It sounds like Guilliman was just better off than the other Legions.
Rather than citing their successor chapters as and where the demand requires, they have a habit of citing them on the fringes of the Ultramar system themselves. In the Codex it's strongly implied that these successor chapters still hold a great deal of loyalty towards the Ultramarines.
Assuming we're talking about the Second Founding Chapters and their placement (because they're the only ones the Ultramarines could actually influence the placement of), they are located close to Ultramar because the worlds they settled on are some of the 500 Worlds of Ultramar. It's simply logical that successors would take lordship over worlds they helped conquer. It's purely logical. And besides, the rest of the UM descendants are deployed by the order of the HLOT, not their predecessor.
Would you mind citing which Ultramarine descendants are devoutly loyal to the Ultramarines, or where it mentions they all do? Off the top of my head, I can think of the Genesis Chapter and the White Consuls (maybe), but you say there's more?
There's no evidence that the Ultramarines have ever considered rebellion, but it's suspicious that they're one of the very few forces in the Imperium that could legitimately pull it off...
So we're basing this with no evidence? Okay.
It fits in perfectly with the shrewd political maneuvering expected of Guilliman the Statesman, and gives them a grimdark tinge that helps integrate them better into the wider grimdark of the 40k setting. Plus, it's infinitely more nuanced than the whole 'ultramarines are the gold standard of marines' spiel which is frankly boring more than anything else. No depth to it.
Again, their depth comes from their approach to conquering the galaxy. Instead of straight warfare, they attempt to rebuild the worlds they take. They have no great flaw, because they don't need one. They're not the gold standard - their only claim to fame is their adherence to the Codex.
Having a flaw doesn't create depth. It can, but it's not the be-all-end-all. Being good at everything is boring. The Ultramarines are not good at everything. They are the jack-of-all-trades. They follow the book. Whether the book is right or not is the real question, but they follow it. And I believe 40k needs book-followers, because then EVERYONE has a super secret flaw, and that diminishes the impact of having a flaw in the first place.
I understand what you are saying and I mostly agree. But I think a faction that is more noblebright than others is fine. The Ultramarines are a beacon of hope in a vast void of darkness.
Oh I absolutely agree, but isn't it just so40k that that beacon of noblebright isn't quite what it seems?
Except there's nuances, as you say.
Not everyone needs an ulterior motive. Just on your criteria alone, we have a lot of SM Chapters with that very premise.
The Blood Angels, the most loved Space Marine Chapter, have a genetic flaw that turns them into pseudo-Vampires.
The Dark Angels have the Fallen, and the fact they may or may not be actual Loyalists.
The Imperial Fists are a pain cult, performing self-flagellation.
The Raven Guard had the genetic monstrosities Corax created in the heresy.
The Space Wolves have the Wulfen (although an argument could be made that they are the opposite: a beacon of grimdark but aren't really, due to the lack of any real retribution from other Imperial forces)
The Salamanders look demonic (not daemonic)
The Iron Hands are absolutely disdainful of the flesh - hardly a worthy figure of guarding the fleshbags that make up humanity.
The only first founders with no caveat are the White Scars and the Ultramarines.
We already have our beacon of noblebright who isn't quite right. That's the Blood Angels.
It's actually in the minority to be presented at face value. I don't understand why the Ultramarines NEED to have an ulterior motive.
The Blood Angels, the most loved Space Marine Chapter, have a genetic flaw that turns them into pseudo-Vampires.
The Dark Angels have the Fallen, and the fact they may or may not be actual Loyalists.
The Imperial Fists are a pain cult, performing self-flagellation.
The Raven Guard had the genetic monstrosities Corax created in the heresy.
The Space Wolves have the Wulfen (although an argument could be made that they are the opposite: a beacon of grimdark but aren't really, due to the lack of any real retribution from other Imperial forces)
The Salamanders look demonic (not daemonic)
The Iron Hands are absolutely disdainful of the flesh - hardly a worthy figure of guarding the fleshbags that make up humanity.
The only first founders with no caveat are the White Scars and the Ultramarines.
We already have our beacon of noblebright who isn't quite right. That's the Blood Angels.
It's actually in the minority to be presented at face value. I don't understand why the Ultramarines NEED to have an ulterior motive.
and that is why everyone seems to dislike the Ultramarines, everyone wants their guys to have some crazy secret or weakness, and the Ultras really dont have anything glaring other than they stick to their tactics a little too hard and it tends to get them killed. Really its not too unlike the legends that surround the real Roman Legions, as peerless warriors with the best gear and a nigh unstoppable army. They weren't actually that good as warriors as we like to think they were and they mostly won because they had the best gear, communication, and logistics, despite being locked into their tactics so much that canny and unpredictable opponents could easily take advantage of them (Boudica's uprising anyone?). Rome itself was a beacon of light and civilization in the darkness of bandits and warlords, despite being stuffy arrogant slavers themselves. Ultras are in every way a reflection of the MYTHICAL prowess of the Roman Legions being unstoppable juggernauts. Discipline is their superpower and their flaw. Ultramar is a place of safety and prosperity, but all must serve the needs of the Ultramarines and things like free will are nonexistent. The people of Ultramar are very well treated slaves to the men who make them safe.
I think that perceived perfection is what makes everyone hate them because everyone nowadays wants edgy and cool good guys. I like them because they are a beacon of hope in a dark galaxy, one of the last remaining chapters that value human life and wanting to make the galaxy a better place. Fighting against the darkness without any hope of seeing the light is frankly boring and shortsighted. There needs to be an endgame and the Ultramarines and RB are one of the few groups that are actually working toward that goal. The wolves fight to fight, Fists fight to preserve but never to rebuild, DA are more interested in keeping their past buried then they are seeing a new future created. Maybe people just dislike the Ultras and RB simply because they are running counter to a galaxy that is spinning out of control and descending into darkness.
I am talking about fluff. If a SM or CSM player puts Guiliman or Magnus on the table, you don't have anything in your codex even close to the importance of this characters in the fluff.
A C-tan shard is a part of a god, right?
As for importance fluff-wise, Eldrad has been around since the Primarchs. Before even, as he told Fulgrim when they met.
There's also the Avatar of Khaine. He' a pretty important dude.
As for stuff being on the table in a standard game, I don't disagree. I'll put Primarchs up there with fliers and super heavy tanks and Imperial Knights. They should only be on the table for Apocalypse games and one-off scenarios.
And how would any of those fare in front of Magnus?
In previous Editions the Primarchs and even the emperor weren't as Hyped as they are now. The fluff has made them real Demigods. Not even the eldar Avatars or the C'than Shards can compare to Magnus and probably not to Guiliman. New Fluff has favored the Imperium and Chaos too much. Tyranids and Orks always lose because they can afford to, Eldar always retreat, Tau are on the losing side too and the Necrons got separated into a million factions so they are not a threat anymore. The Xenos (and AM) are just irrelevant at this point and this is just a slapfest between SM and CSM.
A resounding "meh". When Magnus was confirmed it was only a matter of time before a loyalist Primarch returned, and it was either him, Russ or Jonson (I know Vulkan, Khan and Corax may still be alive but they haven't been the focus of the lore as much). Considering that the Wolves just got a supplement relatively recently and they missed the chance to have Magnus class with Russ, that only left the Lion and Rowboat. And Rowboat has +10 chances on top of the Lion for being an Ultramarine, and thus much more likely to win favouritism.
However I think it should have gone to The Lion instead. The Dark Angels, if I remember, was just recovering from a blow done by the Changling or something and Cypher is returning to the imperial side, so Guilliman being the awakened one seems kinda odd since the Ultramarines haven't been participating in anything of note recently.
Plus, Girlyman already has a FW model and the Lion doesn't, so that's another missed opportunity.
I am talking about fluff. If a SM or CSM player puts Guiliman or Magnus on the table, you don't have anything in your codex even close to the importance of this characters in the fluff.
A C-tan shard is a part of a god, right?
As for importance fluff-wise, Eldrad has been around since the Primarchs. Before even, as he told Fulgrim when they met.
There's also the Avatar of Khaine. He' a pretty important dude.
As for stuff being on the table in a standard game, I don't disagree. I'll put Primarchs up there with fliers and super heavy tanks and Imperial Knights. They should only be on the table for Apocalypse games and one-off scenarios.
And how would any of those fare in front of Magnus?
In previous Editions the Primarchs and even the emperor weren't as Hyped as they are now. The fluff has made them real Demigods. Not even the eldar Avatars or the C'than Shards can compare to Magnus and probably not to Guiliman. New Fluff has favored the Imperium and Chaos too much. Tyranids and Orks always lose because they can afford to, Eldar always retreat, Tau are on the losing side too and the Necrons got separated into a million factions so they are not a threat anymore. The Xenos (and AM) are just irrelevant at this point and this is just a slapfest between SM and CSM.
Magnus was always the most powerful psyker known to mankind save the emperor. his abilities needed to show that, and IMHO they needed to be sufficant so that there was no "well ahriman has X.. tigerus has Y, they're actually better"
The return of a primarch shows they have no idea how to build a narrative in the universe that they built, and are now going to trash the things that make 40k fun.
Arnais wrote: I don't like bringing this kind of superpowered being on the table, same as Magnus. It cheapens all other characters and monsters. The game is not balanced around them and the other armies just don't have anything lore wise to counter them and feel relevant. What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? They have nothing, any of their characters will get instagibbed. I am talking about the narrative not the gameplay. I think they belong in the myth or they should get a Phoenix Lord treatment.
What?
Orks: Ghaz is the prophet of Gork and Mork
Eldar: Literally 8-9 characters exist that can take him on that represent a pantheon of gods.
Tau: What is a stormsurge? for 5000 alex It was literally developed as a response to all this nonsense by the imperium/chaos
Nids: Swarmlord is best lord. Old one eye also comes to mind.
Necrons: Last I checked a C'Tan is a fractured GOD...
And this is not the first time a Primarch has come to the table top game, so stop acting like this is someone going to wreck the game.
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bbekins wrote: I like the Ultramarines and I like Guilliman as a primarch. But I don't think they should be bringing back any of the primarchs as characters for the current game. The game should be about the lowly squads of troops, not bigger and larger vehicles, creatures, monsters or characters. Unfortunately the game has been going that way for awhile. I also don't think Guilliman or any of the primarchs would get involved in a battle of the tabletop size. They should be back behind the lines looking at the grand strategy, not shooting or hacking some unit. The only way they should be involved in the fighting is if their was an attack on their command center or if they really screwed up and their forces were overrun.
You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.
I hate 10k point games, but I'm not going to tell my friend to stop playing it because I don't like it. I just don't play 10k point games.....
sfshilo wrote: You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.
So since it would ruin your fun, saying "If you bring a primarch, you're not getting a game from me, becuase I'm not intersted in playing against this garbage." doesn't work?
sfshilo wrote: You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.
So since it would ruin your fun, saying "If you bring a primarch, you're not getting a game from me, becuase I'm not intersted in playing against this garbage." doesn't work?
Strength is relative. Do you only play against weaker lists?
Arnais wrote: I don't like bringing this kind of superpowered being on the table, same as Magnus. It cheapens all other characters and monsters. The game is not balanced around them and the other armies just don't have anything lore wise to counter them and feel relevant. What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? They have nothing, any of their characters will get instagibbed. I am talking about the narrative not the gameplay. I think they belong in the myth or they should get a Phoenix Lord treatment.
What?
Orks: Ghaz is the prophet of Gork and Mork
Eldar: Literally 8-9 characters exist that can take him on that represent a pantheon of gods.
Tau: What is a stormsurge? for 5000 alex It was literally developed as a response to all this nonsense by the imperium/chaos
Nids: Swarmlord is best lord. Old one eye also comes to mind.
Necrons: Last I checked a C'Tan is a fractured GOD...
And this is not the first time a Primarch has come to the table top game, so stop acting like this is someone going to wreck the game.
apparently the aliens are allowed to have their gods, but the IoM isn't allowed to have their gods?
Arnais wrote: I don't like bringing this kind of superpowered being on the table, same as Magnus. It cheapens all other characters and monsters. The game is not balanced around them and the other armies just don't have anything lore wise to counter them and feel relevant. What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? They have nothing, any of their characters will get instagibbed. I am talking about the narrative not the gameplay. I think they belong in the myth or they should get a Phoenix Lord treatment.
What?
Orks: Ghaz is the prophet of Gork and Mork
Eldar: Literally 8-9 characters exist that can take him on that represent a pantheon of gods.
Tau: What is a stormsurge? for 5000 alex It was literally developed as a response to all this nonsense by the imperium/chaos
Nids: Swarmlord is best lord. Old one eye also comes to mind.
Necrons: Last I checked a C'Tan is a fractured GOD...
And this is not the first time a Primarch has come to the table top game, so stop acting like this is someone going to wreck the game.
apparently the aliens are allowed to have their gods, but the IoM isn't allowed to have their gods?
What? OF COURSE NOT!
There's no gods in the Imperium, only mortal (and awesome men)*
sfshilo wrote: You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.
So since it would ruin your fun, saying "If you bring a primarch, you're not getting a game from me, becuase I'm not intersted in playing against this garbage." doesn't work?
Strength is relative. Do you only play against weaker lists?
My primary objection to primarchs has nothing to do with strength, so I have no desire to answer your blatant and dishonest attempt to paint it as a munchkin scenario.
sfshilo wrote: You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.
So since it would ruin your fun, saying "If you bring a primarch, you're not getting a game from me, becuase I'm not intersted in playing against this garbage." doesn't work?
Strength is relative. Do you only play against weaker lists?
My primary objection to primarchs has nothing to do with strength, so I have no desire to answer your blatant and dishonest attempt to paint it as a munchkin scenario.
with respect your objection based on them importing stuff from 30k doesn't make a whole lot of sense, they're the exact same setting, simply at differant points in the line etc. GW's been teasing the return of Primarchs for a LOOOONG time, assuming they're only doing it "cause 30k" (don't get me wrong though it's a factor) is proably a mistake.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:The return of a primarch shows they have no idea how to build a narrative in the universe that they built, and are now going to trash the things that make 40k fun.
If anything showed GW had no idea how to build a narrative in the 40k universe it was the timeline reset after Medusa V
Granted, what makes 40k is pretty subjective, but making good on the fabled promise that Primarchs might return one day is hardly the most egregious thing that's ever happened in the 40k lore. Guilliman could strap the golden throne, Emperor and all, into a walker and wear it like a penitent engine and the dumbest thing in the lore would still be Draigo as he was in the 5th ed Grey Knight book fluff.
In any case the Imperium is unlikely to become an unstoppable juggernaught just because Guilliman's back.
I think this is an important point. At a certain point we have to remember that Guilliman is still just one man. Yes, he may be a Primarch,and yes he may be the lord of Ultramar, but ultimately I dont think he will be capable of having a massive influence on the Imperium. He can only be in one place at a time, and the Imperium is too vast to feel the impact of one person.
Underestimation of the millennium.
Guilliman is one of the few that could pull of a Horus if he so inclined due to the current state of the imperium.
Guilliman is one of the few that could pull of a Horus if he so inclined due to the current state of the imperium.
Guilliman could easily start a civil war and take over the central seat of power, as Horus tried to. But it wouldn't have any immediate impact on most of the Imperium. The Imperium is obscenely massive, it is also ludicrously dogmatic and bureaucratic. Guilliman is a potent figure, no question, but I'd have a hard time believing that even a Primarch would be able to overcome or reform thousands of years of indoctrination and rigidly enforced practices over such a vast geographic space within any reasonable time frame. He would have to overcome corruption, dogma, inflexiblity and infighting literally on a galactic scale.
By that argument, Caesar's expansion in to Gaul is the exact same as World War 2-- an imperialistic power attempts to conquer Europe and eventually loses control of it. After all, they both took place in the same universe, heck, both on the same exact world, even! How can they be different? Just different timelines, you see.
But that's a ridiculous argument. Yes, it's the same world, but it's not the same overall setting, things have changed dramatically in the intervening time, to the point that stories told in one are quite alien to stories told in the other.
Or to be more blunt about my views on the matter, between 30k and 40k, one is a massive marinewank full of bad writing, predictable plot "twists", one dimensional villains AND heroes, and overlooked opportunities. And the other one is Warhammer 40,000. And yes, I say this being quite aware of what 40k's lore often ends up being. 30k is worse.
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nurgle5 wrote: Guilliman could easily start a civil war and take over the central seat of power, as Horus tried to. But it wouldn't have any immediate impact on most of the Imperium.
Agreed. The only reason Horus was able to was that he was given massive amounts of power and influence both both the Emperor AND the Chaos Gods simultaneously.
The former would not repeat that mistake. The latter have no interest in doing it again, there's not much of a point in their eyes and I doubt Guilliman would accept it anyway.
By that argument, Caesar's expansion in to Gaul is the exact same as World War 2-- an imperialistic power attempts to conquer Europe and eventually loses control of it. After all, they both took place in the same universe, heck, both on the same exact world, even! How can they be different? Just different timelines, you see.
But that's a ridiculous argument. Yes, it's the same world, but it's not the same overall setting, things have changed dramatically in the intervening time, to the point that stories told in one are quite alien to stories told in the other.
Or to be more blunt about my views on the matter, between 30k and 40k, one is a massive marinewank full of bad writing, predictable plot "twists", one dimensional villains AND heroes, and overlooked opportunities. And the other one is Warhammer 40,000. And yes, I say this being quite aware of what 40k's lore often ends up being. 30k is worse.
1. You're talking about events (wars) not people, with fundamentally different nations. 2. The primarchs in 30k are alive at year 40k, Caeser was not alive during World War 2. 3. Guilliman's empire is still in tact.
Your logic is a trainwreck. You need to do better to take such a strong stance, which at this point boils down to, "I don't like it because." It's totally valid to have that opinion, but your scenario is a non sequitur.
Marmatag wrote: 1. You're talking about events (wars) not people, with fundamentally different nations.
And the Imperium of 40k is a fundamentally different nation than that which existed during 30k. It's not my fault you don't know anything about the lore. The other two are irrelevant.
Thanks man and yeah that's exactly what I find so refreshing about the 40k universe. Everywhere you look in most IPs it's frighteningly obvious who the good guys are and who the bad guys are. In 40k, no-ones' the good guy. The universe is too dangerous to afford the luxury of a moral high ground. Each faction is struggling just to survive.
It's not unique to the 40k universe, but it is one of the cornerstones of its appeal. I sincerely hope that that's remembered amidst all these releases...
Normally, I hate super-grim settings, but I think 40K does it right.
--It's on a sufficiently large scale that it becomes awe-inspiring rather than grinding. You can marvel at that guy standing on a mountain of skulls without having to consider each individual agonising death. Equally, the large scale allows room for heroic individual stories that don't affect how screwed the setting as a whole is.
--It's sufficiently over-the-top that it escapes a feeling of depressingly petty dickishness. I mean, we've got giant robots carrying castles on their shoulders and flying cathedral spaceships blowing up planets, while bondage nuns with giant chainsaws fight disciples of the god of excess who wail on their guitars so hard that your head explodes.
--There is (or was, at least) a sense of humour about the above two.
By that argument, Caesar's expansion in to Gaul is the exact same as World War 2-- an imperialistic power attempts to conquer Europe and eventually loses control of it. After all, they both took place in the same universe, heck, both on the same exact world, even! How can they be different? Just different timelines, you see.
But that's a ridiculous argument. Yes, it's the same world, but it's not the same overall setting, things have changed dramatically in the intervening time, to the point that stories told in one are quite alien to stories told in the other.
Or to be more blunt about my views on the matter, between 30k and 40k, one is a massive marinewank full of bad writing, predictable plot "twists", one dimensional villains AND heroes, and overlooked opportunities. And the other one is Warhammer 40,000. And yes, I say this being quite aware of what 40k's lore often ends up being. 30k is worse.
1. You're talking about events (wars) not people, with fundamentally different nations.
2. The primarchs in 30k are alive at year 40k, Caeser was not alive during World War 2.
3. Guilliman's empire is still in tact.
Your logic is a trainwreck. You need to do better to take such a strong stance, which at this point boils down to, "I don't like it because." It's totally valid to have that opinion, but your scenario is a non sequitur.
more to the point, Melissa seems fixated on the novels. ignoring a few facts. 1: 90% of 40k novels are bolterborn. 2: just because they deal with space marine books, not all the HH novels are. no they don't focus on "those poor Imperial guardsmen" but they regularly have normal people dealing with the Marines, and sometimes you see impressive characterization in the HH novels. hell gimme more novels like unremembered Empire, character studies more then "the character was so awesome matt ward had to tone him down for the codex LOL" thing is it can be done with Marines and primarchs
Marmatag wrote: 1. You're talking about events (wars) not people, with fundamentally different nations.
And the Imperium of 40k is a fundamentally different nation than that which existed during 30k. It's not my fault you don't know anything about the lore. The other two are irrelevant.
I'll move past your obviously combative tone and get to the heart of the matter:
Guilliman is a character in both 30k, and 40k. You can dislike the fact that a character has lived for over 10,000 years, but this is hardly a "new thing" in science fiction.
In Dune, Leto Atreides (son of Paul Atreides) is originally projected to live for 40,000 years after fusing his body with the worms. The empire on Arrakis is fundamentally different at the time of Leto's birth, and at the time of his death, yet the character spans over the duration. Does the fact that thousands of years pass between Children and God Emperor suddenly make Leto's presence in God Emperor total garbage, because "he existed in a previous era?"
You example is flawed in that Leto was alive, well, commanding, guiding and controlling everything in that whole 40k years.
Girlyman is a relic from the past who can't be any more out of the loop of what has been happening. He's been napping and during that time has he do e anything? No. He's been nothing more than a glorified fleshy statue.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: You example is flawed in that Leto was alive, well, commanding, guiding and controlling everything in that whole 40k years.
Girlyman is a relic from the past who can't be any more out of the loop of what has been happening. He's been napping and during that time has he do e anything? No. He's been nothing more than a glorified fleshy statue.
a "relic" that happens to be a primarch which happens to be the closest thing to the Emperor the Imperium has seen in over 10,000 years who happens to be a natural strategic genius
Considering what we know of the Primarchs and Guilliman, I'd expect it to take less than a day for Guilliman to study up recent history and know and remember everything perfectly. He's the progeny of an immortal being that has been alive for countless millennia.
I'd say it's much more likely that Guilliman will be worshipped as a god and promoted the Warmaster, than getting bogged down in politics and opposed. The Primarches during the crusade had absolute control over army and navy segments, and often overall command over other Legion forces than their own. Nobody thought humanity could fail during the crusade. It was only a matter of time when humans would be the masters of the universe. Now the situation is more dire, and everyone is looking for a glimmer of hope. A living Primarch is just that.
During the crusade the Emperor tried to make people stop believing in gods, and constantly told everyone he is just a man and his children are just men and that the things in the warp are just raw energy as opposed to something supernatural to be feared or worshipped. That didn't really pan out well, and that's one of my favourite story lines in 40K: If people forgot the Chaos gods and there was nobody that worshipped them or remembered them they'd probably wither or die (Hive Fleet Horror, Barrington. J. Bailey 2001), but people want and need for gods to exist. They'll worship the Primarches too, even against their protests.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote: The return of a primarch shows they have no idea how to build a narrative in the universe that they built, and are now going to trash the things that make 40k fun.
Are you trying to say you didn't realise that when they killed the entire Warhammer setting?
Giantwalkingchair wrote: You example is flawed in that Leto was alive, well, commanding, guiding and controlling everything in that whole 40k years.
Girlyman is a relic from the past who can't be any more out of the loop of what has been happening. He's been napping and during that time has he do e anything? No. He's been nothing more than a glorified fleshy statue.
TO be fair, the entire fluff up to this point pretty much amounts to "gaks been fethed for almost the entirety of 10 000 years, and not a thing has gotten better or worse"
Giantwalkingchair wrote: You example is flawed in that Leto was alive, well, commanding, guiding and controlling everything in that whole 40k years.
Girlyman is a relic from the past who can't be any more out of the loop of what has been happening. He's been napping and during that time has he do e anything? No. He's been nothing more than a glorified fleshy statue.
a "relic" that happens to be a primarch which happens to be the closest thing to the Emperor the Imperium has seen in over 10,000 years who happens to be a natural strategic genius
so no, your logic is flawed
The "man out of time" story is a classic device in writing. Because RB is a "relic" he gets to contrast both the nature of his own time and the time he now finds himself in. This allows for an introspective look at both societies and is often a way to create a feeling of isolation for the displaced. This is a great way for them to bridge 30k and 40k in a meaningful way and even bring closure to both as they head into the 42nd millennia. Just look at how characters from Captain America, Idiocracy, Back to the Future, Terminator, the classic Demon with a Glass Hand, or even 40ks own Zso Sahaal in Lords of Night react to the radical change in surroundings. If the character is written well it could very well be an excellent addition to the lore.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: You example is flawed in that Leto was alive, well, commanding, guiding and controlling everything in that whole 40k years.
Girlyman is a relic from the past who can't be any more out of the loop of what has been happening. He's been napping and during that time has he do e anything? No. He's been nothing more than a glorified fleshy statue.
Leto's scope was restricted specifically to Arrakis, and he ruled using his genetically engineered descendants as proxies. Not totally unlike Guilliman, except we have documented evidence that Guilliman was in statis.
I do agree that Leto isn't the perfect example. But just being upset because a character spans generations is unfair. Leto's narrative fast forwarded thousands of years, as did Guilliman's.
Just one demigod you mean. Aren't all of the primarchs peerless geniuses? I imagine the inspiration stirred by the resurrection of a 10,000 year old legendary superhero will cause quite an upheaval amongst the worlds of the Imperium, even if he does look like a Thousand Sons demon prince.
