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 WE Drake Man wrote:

 nurgle5 wrote:

In any case the Imperium is unlikely to become an unstoppable juggernaught just because Guilliman's back.

I think this is an important point. At a certain point we have to remember that Guilliman is still just one man. Yes, he may be a Primarch,and yes he may be the lord of Ultramar, but ultimately I dont think he will be capable of having a massive influence on the Imperium. He can only be in one place at a time, and the Imperium is too vast to feel the impact of one person.

I just hope the writers remember that...

I actually have a little faith that they will. The Eldar story in GS:II was a lot better and more nuanced than I'd feared. There's hope yet

 WE Drake Man wrote:


... just one man...

Just one demigod you mean. Aren't all of the primarchs peerless geniuses? I imagine the inspiration stirred by the resurrection of a 10,000 year old legendary superhero will cause quite an upheaval amongst the worlds of the Imperium, even if he does look like a Thousand Sons demon prince.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

 WE Drake Man wrote:


... just one man...

Just one demigod you mean. Aren't all of the primarchs peerless geniuses? I imagine the inspiration stirred by the resurrection of a 10,000 year old legendary superhero will cause quite an upheaval amongst the worlds of the Imperium, even if he does look like a Thousand Sons demon prince.

Yes, but it could always cause some infighting. Remember, the High Lords of Terra currently lead and if Rowboat comes back, they might not be too happy about him supplanting them as ruler.

 Crazyterran wrote:
So, the last book in december is going to be Roboute, Lion, Russ, Vulkan and Ferrus Reborn holding off until Dorn, the Khan, The Sanguinor come to break Abaddons fleet, right?

All leading up to a climactic dual between Draigo and Abaddon ascended, right?

On a more serious note, i think the Lion will be the Loyalist that goes renegade. Especially with Cypher appearing to help out Team Loyalist (Roboute + Celestine and Co.). It could be that his Chapter/Legion force him into a corner with their fanatic focus on the Fallen (Roboute coming under attack by Dark Angels and the DA being declared renegades?).

Itll be interesting to see, nonetheless.

I can concur with that, we don't know much about the whole Lion/Luther thing and for all we know it was Luthor who was the loyalist! The only thing is I don't think they would make all DA renegade because that would nullify an entire army list in its traditional setting. They may have the Lion run off with the Renegades however and start having fun in the Eye and Cyhper/Luthor lead the remaining DA to victory.

I don't like bringing this kind of superpowered being on the table, same as Magnus. It cheapens all other characters and monsters. The game is not balanced around them and the other armies just don't have anything lore wise to counter them and feel relevant. What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? They have nothing, any of their characters will get instagibbed. I am talking about the narrative not the gameplay. I think they belong in the myth or they should get a Phoenix Lord treatment.

 jreilly89 wrote:


Yes, but it could always cause some infighting. Remember, the High Lords of Terra currently lead and if Rowboat comes back, they might not be too happy about him supplanting them as ruler.

True, though I wonder how long their resistance would last; I'm not sure they'd have too many supporters. Lots of interesting questions & possibilities. Though I share the opinion that the primarchs serve better as heroic figures of myth, that train has already left the station and now I'm curious to see in what condition it is when it arrives. Hopefully geedubs can yet surprise us all!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arnais wrote:
... What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? ...

A newborn Eldar god of death maybe?

 Ginjitzu wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arnais wrote:
... What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? ...

An Eldar god of death maybe?

Yeah but here are a lot more primarchs and demosn primarchs remaining and you are talking about the last chance of their entire race. Fluffwise it would be like the emperor woke up and started fighting again and he was weaker in CC than an Avatar of Khaine.

 Ginjitzu wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arnais wrote:
... What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? ...

A newborn Eldar god of death maybe?

Undercosted and abundant scatter lasers on a super fast platform to destroy the rest of the army.

A pair of wraithknights to destroy the rest of the army.


The rest of the Magnus army is still marines, you know. Or perhaps they are running with Daemons. Eldar still outmatch them.

 kronk wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arnais wrote:
... What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? ...

A newborn Eldar god of death maybe?

Undercosted and abundant scatter lasers on a super fast platform to destroy the rest of the army.

A pair of wraithknights to destroy the rest of the army.


The rest of the Magnus army is still marines, you know. Or perhaps they are running with Daemons. Eldar still outmatch them.

I am talking about fluff. If a SM or CSM player puts Guiliman or Magnus on the table, you don't have anything in your codex even close to the importance of this characters in the fluff.

Yeah, nether one has any place in a standard game of 40k.

Arnais wrote:


I am talking about fluff. If a SM or CSM player puts Guiliman or Magnus on the table, you don't have anything in your codex even close to the importance of this characters in the fluff.

A C-tan shard is a part of a god, right?

As for importance fluff-wise, Eldrad has been around since the Primarchs. Before even, as he told Fulgrim when they met.

There's also the Avatar of Khaine. He' a pretty important dude.

As for stuff being on the table in a standard game, I don't disagree. I'll put Primarchs up there with fliers and super heavy tanks and Imperial Knights. They should only be on the table for Apocalypse games and one-off scenarios.

I'm indifferent to it.

On the one hand, the 'good' side needs a Primarch to balance out the fact that 'evil' got Magnus.

On the other hand the only Primarch I've only really cared about is Sanguinius and he won't be coming back (and if he does, it'll be for some BS reason)

I would've liked Ferrus Manus to come back but as a kind of cyber zombie of the mechanicus but only ever wears his helmet

 john27 wrote:
I would've liked Ferrus Manus to come back but as a kind of cyber zombie of the mechanicus but only ever wears his helmet

Theres not a whole lot left of him to resurrect, I think the heretics turned his fingers into sacrificial blades and did....things with the rest of him. The Iron Hands do have his skull though.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Ynneadwraith - you point rests on the Ultramarines having a pocket empire and nearly a full legion at their command, despite ordering others not to do so.

Where's the proof of this?

Spoiler:

Ultramar, which is a holding of several systems, is not prohibited by the codex. No-one else was forced to give up their personal empires, mostly because Guilliman's logistical expertise allowed him to create Ultramar. If he had asked the Fists to break up the Phalanx, or the Dark Angels the Rock, that would support your statement. But no other Legion gave up their own domain because they simply didn't have one on the scale of Ultramar. Hell, Ultramar is no more a personal Empire than Nocturne is for the Salamanders, or the Phalanx for the Fists. In fact, it supports the Imperium more than any other chapter homeworld: it musters both Astartes and Guardsmen, despite only needing to tithe Astartes, and boasts a strong agricultural sector.
I wasn't aware being efficient was equivalent to having a pocket empire.
Even so, the Ultramarines lost the most from the deal. They were the largest Legion, with the largest Empire (500 worlds) - all gone by their own primarch's order.

And onto the splitting of the Legion: where does it say that the Ultramarines hold full dominion over their successors, who would follow them in rebellion? Sure, we have a few who are indicated to be of that persuasion (Genesis Chapter), but there are plenty with less ties to Guilliman (Mortifactors), and the vast majority are just as specified as any other successor. Unless every other successor is fanatically loyal to their progenitor?

Speaking of other Chapters being loyal to their progenitor, let's take a look at the Dark Angels, who are confirmed to have a contingency plan to form to Legion strength. They, and their first successors, are all still united, in secret.
Or the Imperial Fists, who have the Last Wall protocol.
Or the Blood Angels, who called their successors to Baal on the onslaught of Leviathan.

Funnily enough, the Ultramarines have never done something like this, despite what you suggest. There's no evidence in current lore they have anything near a Legion in disguise.

Haha! Like all the best conspiracy theories it's circumstantial at best.

The main point that is actually demonstrable is the personal armies thing.

Part of Guilliman's restructuring of the Imperium revolved around splitting up the commands of the Marines, the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy so no one person had the resources to invade systems on their own in the event of a rebellion. It makes excellent sense, and was a very shrewd decision in the wake of the Heresy.

For most Legions, they have their handful of recruiting worlds and a light PDF compliment that answers to the planetary governor. However, the Ultramarines have the PDF of an entire sector answering to the sector governor...who lo and behold just so happens to be the Chapter Master of the Ultramarines! What a coincidence!

Except that the same power is wielded by both the Castellan of Cadia (assuming pre-999.M41) and the Fabricator-General of Mars. Not to mention that the Rock and fleet, the Phalanx and fleet, and the Space Wolf fleet are all far above the quality of Ultramar's naval assets. So, sure, the Ultramarines get an advantage of their superior logistical design - but the other legions got stuff too, where they earned it.
If Guilliman had broken up the empires and PDFs of another Legion, thats would support your theory. However, no other legion had an empire like the Ultramarines did.
Again, I wasn't aware that getting use out of something you earned was traitorous.

Everything else on top of that is just suspicious coincidences.

Is it? It sounds like Guilliman was just better off than the other Legions.

Rather than citing their successor chapters as and where the demand requires, they have a habit of citing them on the fringes of the Ultramar system themselves. In the Codex it's strongly implied that these successor chapters still hold a great deal of loyalty towards the Ultramarines.

Assuming we're talking about the Second Founding Chapters and their placement (because they're the only ones the Ultramarines could actually influence the placement of), they are located close to Ultramar because the worlds they settled on are some of the 500 Worlds of Ultramar. It's simply logical that successors would take lordship over worlds they helped conquer. It's purely logical. And besides, the rest of the UM descendants are deployed by the order of the HLOT, not their predecessor.

Would you mind citing which Ultramarine descendants are devoutly loyal to the Ultramarines, or where it mentions they all do? Off the top of my head, I can think of the Genesis Chapter and the White Consuls (maybe), but you say there's more?

There's no evidence that the Ultramarines have ever considered rebellion, but it's suspicious that they're one of the very few forces in the Imperium that could legitimately pull it off...

So we're basing this with no evidence? Okay.

It fits in perfectly with the shrewd political maneuvering expected of Guilliman the Statesman, and gives them a grimdark tinge that helps integrate them better into the wider grimdark of the 40k setting. Plus, it's infinitely more nuanced than the whole 'ultramarines are the gold standard of marines' spiel which is frankly boring more than anything else. No depth to it.

Again, their depth comes from their approach to conquering the galaxy. Instead of straight warfare, they attempt to rebuild the worlds they take. They have no great flaw, because they don't need one. They're not the gold standard - their only claim to fame is their adherence to the Codex.
Having a flaw doesn't create depth. It can, but it's not the be-all-end-all. Being good at everything is boring. The Ultramarines are not good at everything. They are the jack-of-all-trades. They follow the book. Whether the book is right or not is the real question, but they follow it. And I believe 40k needs book-followers, because then EVERYONE has a super secret flaw, and that diminishes the impact of having a flaw in the first place.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
@Ynnead

I understand what you are saying and I mostly agree. But I think a faction that is more noblebright than others is fine. The Ultramarines are a beacon of hope in a vast void of darkness.

Oh I absolutely agree, but isn't it just so 40k that that beacon of noblebright isn't quite what it seems?

Except there's nuances, as you say.
Not everyone needs an ulterior motive. Just on your criteria alone, we have a lot of SM Chapters with that very premise.

The Blood Angels, the most loved Space Marine Chapter, have a genetic flaw that turns them into pseudo-Vampires.
The Dark Angels have the Fallen, and the fact they may or may not be actual Loyalists.
The Imperial Fists are a pain cult, performing self-flagellation.
The Raven Guard had the genetic monstrosities Corax created in the heresy.
The Space Wolves have the Wulfen (although an argument could be made that they are the opposite: a beacon of grimdark but aren't really, due to the lack of any real retribution from other Imperial forces)
The Salamanders look demonic (not daemonic)
The Iron Hands are absolutely disdainful of the flesh - hardly a worthy figure of guarding the fleshbags that make up humanity.

The only first founders with no caveat are the White Scars and the Ultramarines.
We already have our beacon of noblebright who isn't quite right. That's the Blood Angels.
It's actually in the minority to be presented at face value. I don't understand why the Ultramarines NEED to have an ulterior motive.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:


The Blood Angels, the most loved Space Marine Chapter, have a genetic flaw that turns them into pseudo-Vampires.
The Dark Angels have the Fallen, and the fact they may or may not be actual Loyalists.
The Imperial Fists are a pain cult, performing self-flagellation.
The Raven Guard had the genetic monstrosities Corax created in the heresy.
The Space Wolves have the Wulfen (although an argument could be made that they are the opposite: a beacon of grimdark but aren't really, due to the lack of any real retribution from other Imperial forces)
The Salamanders look demonic (not daemonic)
The Iron Hands are absolutely disdainful of the flesh - hardly a worthy figure of guarding the fleshbags that make up humanity.

The only first founders with no caveat are the White Scars and the Ultramarines.
We already have our beacon of noblebright who isn't quite right. That's the Blood Angels.
It's actually in the minority to be presented at face value. I don't understand why the Ultramarines NEED to have an ulterior motive.

and that is why everyone seems to dislike the Ultramarines, everyone wants their guys to have some crazy secret or weakness, and the Ultras really dont have anything glaring other than they stick to their tactics a little too hard and it tends to get them killed. Really its not too unlike the legends that surround the real Roman Legions, as peerless warriors with the best gear and a nigh unstoppable army. They weren't actually that good as warriors as we like to think they were and they mostly won because they had the best gear, communication, and logistics, despite being locked into their tactics so much that canny and unpredictable opponents could easily take advantage of them (Boudica's uprising anyone?). Rome itself was a beacon of light and civilization in the darkness of bandits and warlords, despite being stuffy arrogant slavers themselves. Ultras are in every way a reflection of the MYTHICAL prowess of the Roman Legions being unstoppable juggernauts. Discipline is their superpower and their flaw. Ultramar is a place of safety and prosperity, but all must serve the needs of the Ultramarines and things like free will are nonexistent. The people of Ultramar are very well treated slaves to the men who make them safe.

I think that perceived perfection is what makes everyone hate them because everyone nowadays wants edgy and cool good guys. I like them because they are a beacon of hope in a dark galaxy, one of the last remaining chapters that value human life and wanting to make the galaxy a better place. Fighting against the darkness without any hope of seeing the light is frankly boring and shortsighted. There needs to be an endgame and the Ultramarines and RB are one of the few groups that are actually working toward that goal. The wolves fight to fight, Fists fight to preserve but never to rebuild, DA are more interested in keeping their past buried then they are seeing a new future created. Maybe people just dislike the Ultras and RB simply because they are running counter to a galaxy that is spinning out of control and descending into darkness.

 kronk wrote:

Arnais wrote:


I am talking about fluff. If a SM or CSM player puts Guiliman or Magnus on the table, you don't have anything in your codex even close to the importance of this characters in the fluff.

A C-tan shard is a part of a god, right?

As for importance fluff-wise, Eldrad has been around since the Primarchs. Before even, as he told Fulgrim when they met.

There's also the Avatar of Khaine. He' a pretty important dude.

As for stuff being on the table in a standard game, I don't disagree. I'll put Primarchs up there with fliers and super heavy tanks and Imperial Knights. They should only be on the table for Apocalypse games and one-off scenarios.

And how would any of those fare in front of Magnus?

In previous Editions the Primarchs and even the emperor weren't as Hyped as they are now. The fluff has made them real Demigods. Not even the eldar Avatars or the C'than Shards can compare to Magnus and probably not to Guiliman. New Fluff has favored the Imperium and Chaos too much. Tyranids and Orks always lose because they can afford to, Eldar always retreat, Tau are on the losing side too and the Necrons got separated into a million factions so they are not a threat anymore. The Xenos (and AM) are just irrelevant at this point and this is just a slapfest between SM and CSM.

A resounding "meh". When Magnus was confirmed it was only a matter of time before a loyalist Primarch returned, and it was either him, Russ or Jonson (I know Vulkan, Khan and Corax may still be alive but they haven't been the focus of the lore as much). Considering that the Wolves just got a supplement relatively recently and they missed the chance to have Magnus class with Russ, that only left the Lion and Rowboat. And Rowboat has +10 chances on top of the Lion for being an Ultramarine, and thus much more likely to win favouritism.

However I think it should have gone to The Lion instead. The Dark Angels, if I remember, was just recovering from a blow done by the Changling or something and Cypher is returning to the imperial side, so Guilliman being the awakened one seems kinda odd since the Ultramarines haven't been participating in anything of note recently.

Plus, Girlyman already has a FW model and the Lion doesn't, so that's another missed opportunity.

on the other hand the ultramarines not being involved means it's a good oppertunity to get them involved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arnais wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Arnais wrote:


I am talking about fluff. If a SM or CSM player puts Guiliman or Magnus on the table, you don't have anything in your codex even close to the importance of this characters in the fluff.

A C-tan shard is a part of a god, right?

As for importance fluff-wise, Eldrad has been around since the Primarchs. Before even, as he told Fulgrim when they met.

There's also the Avatar of Khaine. He' a pretty important dude.

As for stuff being on the table in a standard game, I don't disagree. I'll put Primarchs up there with fliers and super heavy tanks and Imperial Knights. They should only be on the table for Apocalypse games and one-off scenarios.

And how would any of those fare in front of Magnus?

In previous Editions the Primarchs and even the emperor weren't as Hyped as they are now. The fluff has made them real Demigods. Not even the eldar Avatars or the C'than Shards can compare to Magnus and probably not to Guiliman. New Fluff has favored the Imperium and Chaos too much. Tyranids and Orks always lose because they can afford to, Eldar always retreat, Tau are on the losing side too and the Necrons got separated into a million factions so they are not a threat anymore. The Xenos (and AM) are just irrelevant at this point and this is just a slapfest between SM and CSM.

Magnus was always the most powerful psyker known to mankind save the emperor. his abilities needed to show that, and IMHO they needed to be sufficant so that there was no "well ahriman has X.. tigerus has Y, they're actually better"

The return of a primarch shows they have no idea how to build a narrative in the universe that they built, and are now going to trash the things that make 40k fun.

Arnais wrote:
The Xenos (and AM) are just irrelevant at this point and this is just a slapfest between SM and CSM.

Well, yeah. That has always been the case. Until the bulk of the Tyrranid threat reaches the Milky Way, at any rate.

The greatest threat to the Imperium is Chaos. The corruption of man and his heroes and champions. The enemy within. That has never changed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arnais wrote:


And how would any of those fare in front of Magnus?

You've definitely moved the goal post, Arnais.

First you said there weren't characters as powerful as Magnus and Guilliman in other codecies.

I listed ways to deal with them from the Eldar codecies.

Then you changed it to saying that there aren't any Xenos characters as important to their races as Gulliman or Magnus is to their own race.

I listed important characters from the Eldar and Necron codecies.

Now you're back to complaining about power levels.

Pick an argument, please.

Arnais wrote:
I don't like bringing this kind of superpowered being on the table, same as Magnus. It cheapens all other characters and monsters. The game is not balanced around them and the other armies just don't have anything lore wise to counter them and feel relevant. What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? They have nothing, any of their characters will get instagibbed. I am talking about the narrative not the gameplay. I think they belong in the myth or they should get a Phoenix Lord treatment.

What?

Orks: Ghaz is the prophet of Gork and Mork
Eldar: Literally 8-9 characters exist that can take him on that represent a pantheon of gods.
Tau: What is a stormsurge? for 5000 alex It was literally developed as a response to all this nonsense by the imperium/chaos
Nids: Swarmlord is best lord. Old one eye also comes to mind.
Necrons: Last I checked a C'Tan is a fractured GOD...

And this is not the first time a Primarch has come to the table top game, so stop acting like this is someone going to wreck the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bbekins wrote:
I like the Ultramarines and I like Guilliman as a primarch. But I don't think they should be bringing back any of the primarchs as characters for the current game. The game should be about the lowly squads of troops, not bigger and larger vehicles, creatures, monsters or characters. Unfortunately the game has been going that way for awhile. I also don't think Guilliman or any of the primarchs would get involved in a battle of the tabletop size. They should be back behind the lines looking at the grand strategy, not shooting or hacking some unit. The only way they should be involved in the fighting is if their was an attack on their command center or if they really screwed up and their forces were overrun.

You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.

I hate 10k point games, but I'm not going to tell my friend to stop playing it because I don't like it. I just don't play 10k point games.....

Is it March yet? can't wait

 sfshilo wrote:
You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.

So since it would ruin your fun, saying "If you bring a primarch, you're not getting a game from me, becuase I'm not intersted in playing against this garbage." doesn't work?

 Melissia wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.

So since it would ruin your fun, saying "If you bring a primarch, you're not getting a game from me, becuase I'm not intersted in playing against this garbage." doesn't work?

Strength is relative. Do you only play against weaker lists?

 sfshilo wrote:

Arnais wrote:
I don't like bringing this kind of superpowered being on the table, same as Magnus. It cheapens all other characters and monsters. The game is not balanced around them and the other armies just don't have anything lore wise to counter them and feel relevant. What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? They have nothing, any of their characters will get instagibbed. I am talking about the narrative not the gameplay. I think they belong in the myth or they should get a Phoenix Lord treatment.

What?

Orks: Ghaz is the prophet of Gork and Mork
Eldar: Literally 8-9 characters exist that can take him on that represent a pantheon of gods.
Tau: What is a stormsurge? for 5000 alex It was literally developed as a response to all this nonsense by the imperium/chaos
Nids: Swarmlord is best lord. Old one eye also comes to mind.
Necrons: Last I checked a C'Tan is a fractured GOD...

And this is not the first time a Primarch has come to the table top game, so stop acting like this is someone going to wreck the game.

apparently the aliens are allowed to have their gods, but the IoM isn't allowed to have their gods?

BrianDavion wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:

Arnais wrote:
I don't like bringing this kind of superpowered being on the table, same as Magnus. It cheapens all other characters and monsters. The game is not balanced around them and the other armies just don't have anything lore wise to counter them and feel relevant. What can the any of the Xenos or the other Imperium armies bring to the table to even a primarch or a demon primarch? They have nothing, any of their characters will get instagibbed. I am talking about the narrative not the gameplay. I think they belong in the myth or they should get a Phoenix Lord treatment.

What?

Orks: Ghaz is the prophet of Gork and Mork
Eldar: Literally 8-9 characters exist that can take him on that represent a pantheon of gods.
Tau: What is a stormsurge? for 5000 alex It was literally developed as a response to all this nonsense by the imperium/chaos
Nids: Swarmlord is best lord. Old one eye also comes to mind.
Necrons: Last I checked a C'Tan is a fractured GOD...

And this is not the first time a Primarch has come to the table top game, so stop acting like this is someone going to wreck the game.

apparently the aliens are allowed to have their gods, but the IoM isn't allowed to have their gods?

What? OF COURSE NOT!

There's no gods in the Imperium, only mortal (and awesome men)*

*T'was a joke.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.

So since it would ruin your fun, saying "If you bring a primarch, you're not getting a game from me, becuase I'm not intersted in playing against this garbage." doesn't work?

Strength is relative. Do you only play against weaker lists?

My primary objection to primarchs has nothing to do with strength, so I have no desire to answer your blatant and dishonest attempt to paint it as a munchkin scenario.

 Melissia wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
You know, there is this thing called kill team, or point restrictions, or common sense that allows you to play the game your way and not wreck it for those of us that like giant gods amongst men.

So since it would ruin your fun, saying "If you bring a primarch, you're not getting a game from me, becuase I'm not intersted in playing against this garbage." doesn't work?

Strength is relative. Do you only play against weaker lists?

My primary objection to primarchs has nothing to do with strength, so I have no desire to answer your blatant and dishonest attempt to paint it as a munchkin scenario.

with respect your objection based on them importing stuff from 30k doesn't make a whole lot of sense, they're the exact same setting, simply at differant points in the line etc. GW's been teasing the return of Primarchs for a LOOOONG time, assuming they're only doing it "cause 30k" (don't get me wrong though it's a factor) is proably a mistake.

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:The return of a primarch shows they have no idea how to build a narrative in the universe that they built, and are now going to trash the things that make 40k fun.

If anything showed GW had no idea how to build a narrative in the 40k universe it was the timeline reset after Medusa V

Granted, what makes 40k is pretty subjective, but making good on the fabled promise that Primarchs might return one day is hardly the most egregious thing that's ever happened in the 40k lore. Guilliman could strap the golden throne, Emperor and all, into a walker and wear it like a penitent engine and the dumbest thing in the lore would still be Draigo as he was in the 5th ed Grey Knight book fluff.