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Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 22:13:14


Post by: Happyjew


If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?

This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 22:31:50


Post by: Ceann


Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 22:35:25


Post by: Happyjew


Ceann wrote:
Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.



I have read the rules. My question is "If I say this unit is Deep Striking, can (when they arrive from reserves) change my mind and have them walk on?" The same question can be asked regarding Outflank, only instead of walking on, it would be arrive from their table edge instead of the side edges.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 22:43:02


Post by: col_impact


 Happyjew wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.



I have read the rules. My question is "If I say this unit is Deep Striking, can (when they arrive from reserves) change my mind and have them walk on?" The same question can be asked regarding Outflank, only instead of walking on, it would be arrive from their table edge instead of the side edges.


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


Otherwise the rules are silent on the issue. So a unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.


This discussion winds up being very pertinent to Flying Monstrous Creatures since they are FAQed to have the Deep Strike special rule and have multiple choices on how to enter play.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 22:48:11


Post by: Ceann


 Happyjew wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.



I have read the rules. My question is "If I say this unit is Deep Striking, can (when they arrive from reserves) change my mind and have them walk on?" The same question can be asked regarding Outflank, only instead of walking on, it would be arrive from their table edge instead of the side edges.


You cannot choose to partially use a special rule.
I don't know of any circumstance where you can.

If you already initiated the rule, I would say you have to follow it through to its completion, you cannot use half or a portion of a rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Deep striking is a special rule. Read the entire rule.

It consists of starting with deep strike reserve.
And ending with you placing them, by arriving by deep strike.
I don't know of any other deploying special rules, so there would be nothing with precedence to circumvent following deep strike to the letter once you have started to use it.



I have read the rules. My question is "If I say this unit is Deep Striking, can (when they arrive from reserves) change my mind and have them walk on?" The same question can be asked regarding Outflank, only instead of walking on, it would be arrive from their table edge instead of the side edges.


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


Otherwise the rules are silent on the issue. So a unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.


This discussion winds up being very pertinent to Flying Monstrous Creatures since they are FAQed to have the Deep Strike special rule and have multiple choices on how to enter play.


Being "silent" on a rule is not permission to decide what it does. It never states you have the option to bring them in another way.
Therefore you do not.

Deepstrike is a special rule, your beloved "infantry standards" have no precedence.
Neither do any other form of rule other than a special rule that contradicts deepstrike, which would have to be a labeled special rule in a codex.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 22:55:45


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Being "silent" on a rule is not permission to decide what it does. It never states you have the option to bring them in another way.
Therefore you do not.


Incorrect. The infantry permission is there. You have to show that the permission has been explicitly eradicated by having the Deep Strike special rule, otherwise the unit simply elects to use that permission. Remember a unit that has Deep Strike and is nominating itself to Deep Strike at the beginning of the game is simultaneously in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves and so has both ways of arriving from Reserves available.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 23:04:18


Post by: Ceann


No, because you chose to use the deep strike rule.
Deep strike is a special rule.
Deploying from reserves is not

Walking onto the board conflicts with deep striking.
Therefore you cannot walk onto the board.
The permission can be there all it wants, it doesn't have precedence and is overridden by deep strike.

Anything else you have to say on this is word soup and your normal literary sorcerer to try to bend the rules.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 23:07:44


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
No, because you chose to use the deep strike rule.
Deep strike is a special rule.
Deploying from reserves is not

Walking onto the board conflicts with deep striking.
Therefore you cannot walk onto the board.
The permission can be there all it wants, it doesn't have precedence and is overridden by deep strike.

Anything else you have to say on this is word soup and your normal literary sorcerer to try to bend the rules.



So A Flying Monstrous Creature is forced to Deep Strike onto the board?

An FMC is FAQd to have Deep Strike special rule. So this special rule overrides all other methods of arriving on the battlefield for the FMC?


Further, a unit that has Deep Strike and tells the opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves and so still has the option of arriving from Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 23:23:11


Post by: Ceann


Having the rule and using the rule are two different things.

If you have told your opponent that FMC will be arriving by deep strike. Then it does.

If you did not tell them it would arrive by deep strike, then it does not.

You cannot decide to change its deployment method from deep strike to something else.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 23:26:32


Post by: Charistoph


 Happyjew wrote:
If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?

This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.

I will put it this way: Without instructions from a codex special rule that allow you to override the decision made in Reserves, I would say that you cannot change their situation. There are several indications that once you make a Reserves commitment. No rules exist allowing you to change a unit's method of Arriving from Reserves once it has been declared.

One place for precedence on this is how Independent Character rules interact with joining a unit in Reserves. Once joined, its joined until the unit is deployed and cannot leave it. However, I will note that it is a specific instruction.

Two good examples of this situation are Tau Stealth Suits and Flayed Ones with a Monolith on the board.

Tau Stealth Suits have Deep Strike as part of their Unit Type, and come with Infiltrate. So, they can Deep Strike, Outflank, or walk on from Reserves like a normal unit. Once you declare one of these methods, they have no method of changing it.

Flayed Ones have both the Deep Strike and Infiltrate Special Rules, so can do the same things in regards to Reserves. However, a Monolith can pull them out of Reserves with the Eternity Gate. This method is not mentioned as arriving from Reserves, but as Disembarking from the Monolith. It doesn't care how the original method of Reserves Arrival was announced, as it completely overrides Arriving From Reserves. Both Deep Strike and Outflank are a method of Arriving From Reserves, just as much as walking on from Reserves. The only reason it is allowed is because the Eternity Gate is in a codex and its rules take precedence over any BRB rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 23:30:40


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
Having the rule and using the rule are two different things.

If you have told your opponent that FMC will be arriving by deep strike. Then it does.

If you did not tell them it would arrive by deep strike, then it does not.

You cannot decide to change its deployment method from deep strike to something else.


The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via other means. Those other options are still completely available and have not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping options open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.

Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/26 23:38:08


Post by: Ceann


You have to follow the entire rule Col.

Not just the first part of it and ignore the rest.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 00:47:34


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
You have to follow the entire rule Col.

Not just the first part of it and ignore the rest.


I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.

Outflank removes options. Deep Strike does not. A unit that announces that it will arrive via Deep Strike is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 01:13:51


Post by: CrownAxe


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:
You have to follow the entire rule Col.

Not just the first part of it and ignore the rest.


I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.

No, you are only allowed to do what the rules give you permission to do

The rules don't tell you you can change how you come in from reserves so you do not have permission to

Please cite a rule that provides permission to do so


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 01:19:29


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:
You have to follow the entire rule Col.

Not just the first part of it and ignore the rest.


I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.

No, you are only allowed to do what the rules give you permission to do

The rules don't tell you you can change how you come in from reserves so you do not have permission to

Please cite a rule that provides permission to do so


Sure no problem.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


Outflank takes away the above permission. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 01:29:01


Post by: Ceann


An apple is an apple and an orange is an orange.
Outflank is it's own special rule with its own procedure.
One has nothing to do with the other.

You are deep striking, not outflanking.
Outflank tells you how to arrive, for outflank.

Deep strike has like 3 paragraphs that tell you how to arrive, for deep striking.

You are grasping at straws just so you can be "right".

You are quoting a basic rule to allow you to move on as normal.
You cannot use a basic rule, the unit has a USR on its Army List Entry called deep strike.
The basic rule is ignored.

You are TOLD by Deep Strike, how to deploy them. This is the only way they can be deployed.
Special rule has precedence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you
would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a
vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must
continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.

• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be
placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When
the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model
touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

• Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 01:47:04


Post by: col_impact


Ceann,

Thanks for quoting the Deep Strike rules but they are not relevant here since the unit is not Deep Striking. The unit chooses to arrive by walking on battlefield when rolling for reserves. The unit is both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves at the same time and the option to walk on has not been removed.

Look at the Outflank special rule for an example of a special rule that removes the option to walk on.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 01:50:32


Post by: Ceann


Choosing to walk onto the field conflicts with the resolution of the deep strike rule. You have to follow the entire rule not just the first part of the rule.

Walking onto the field is a basic rule and is not located in the codex. Deep Strike will be on the Army List entry as a special rule.

You are told how to deploy and that is the only way you can deploy. You are reading only the first part of the rule and ignoring the rest, you cannot partially use a special rule.

The matter is settled and all you will do is ignore the rules and only read the part relevant to the outcome you desire, that is your modus operandi.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 01:57:55


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
Choosing to walk onto the field conflicts with the resolution of the deep strike rule. You have to follow the entire rule not just the first part of the rule.

Walking onto the field is a basic rule and is not located in the codex. Deep Strike will be on the Army List entry as a special rule.

You are told how to deploy and that is the only way you can deploy. You are reading only the first part of the rule and ignoring the rest, you cannot partially use a special rule.

The matter is settled and all you will do is ignore the rules and only read the part relevant to the outcome you desire, that is your modus operandi.


I am reading the entirety of the Deep Strike rule. I don't have permission to invoke portions of rules that are not invoked by the rules. When the unit chooses to walk on the battlefield instead of Deep Striking the second half of the Deep Strike special rule is simply never invoked. They explicitly made it so a unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves at the same time, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves. If the unit somehow winds up in Ongoing Reserves it will again have the choice of Deep Striking or walking on the board.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 02:06:26


Post by: Ceann


"then deploy them as follows"

You missed that part.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 02:09:59


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
"then deploy them as follows"

You missed that part.


You are missing the part that the Deep Strike special does not remove the permission granted to all models to walk on from from Reserves. The unit simply chooses to walk on from Reserves instead of Deep Striking and therefore does not invoke the rules for Deep Striking.

Check out Outflank for a special rule that actually removes the permission to walk on from Reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 02:17:39


Post by: Ceann


Wrong.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

This is the entire process, you cannot bring them the field.
You must deploy them as follows.

Deploy them as follows is an absolute, not a choice.
It does not say you MAY deploy them as follows.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 02:19:23


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
Wrong.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

This is the entire process, you cannot bring them the field.
You must deploy them as follows.

Deploy them as follows is an absolute, not a choice.
It does not say you MAY deploy them as follows.


The unit in question is not going to be Deep Striking. The unit is going to be walking on from Reserves. So the process for 'Deep Striking units' simply does not apply.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 02:22:28


Post by: Ceann


If you placed the unit in deep strike reserves then it will be deep striking.

If you didn't place it in deep strike reserves then the point is moot.

You cannot place it in deep strike reserves and then walk it onto the board.
Because then you are only following part of the rule. The rule is the entire process, from being put into reserves to the point the models resolve a deep strike.
Arriving by deep strike is part of the deep strike rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 02:27:58


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
If you placed the unit in deep strike reserves then it will be deep striking.

If you didn't place it in deep strike reserves then the point is moot.


You place the unit in Deep Strike Reserves so that it is 'able to Deep Strike'.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


Placing the unit in Deep Strike Reserves does not lock in the unit to be Deep Striking. It merely enables the unit to be able to Deep Strike (if it so chooses).

Since the unit is in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves then the unit still retains the permission of simply walking on the battlefield.

Outflank takes away the permission to walk on the battlefield. Deep Strike does not.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


As noted in the above rule, only some units that have the Deep Strike special rule must arrive by Deep Strike. In the case of the specific case of a unit that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' then the issue is settled. But, we are not dealing with this specific case.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 05:14:45


Post by: GodDamUser


Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 05:23:50


Post by: Charistoph


GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?

Considering how much I know one of them doesn't bother to listen to what another says, and the other one is insistent on trying to convince them, apparently.

I know my own life has gotten quieter after setting one of them to Ignore.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 05:33:25


Post by: col_impact


GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?


I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.

Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.

So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.

If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 05:49:41


Post by: CrownAxe


col_impact wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?


I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.

Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.

So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.

If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.

You are just reading the rules incorrectly though.

It's why you are always the only person to be on your side of the argument. You're the one at fault


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 05:54:40


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:
col_impact wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?


I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.

Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.

So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.

If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.

You are just reading the rules incorrectly though.

It's why you are always the only person to be on your side of the argument. You're the one at fault


Feel free to point out any shortcomings in my argument. You can't just say 'you are just reading the rules incorrectly'.

You need to provide proof with rules citations or at least a compelling well-thought out argument. I am open to anything educated and substantiated you have to say about my argument.



A rules debate is not a popularity contest. The correct answer is not necessarily going to be the popular answer. In fact, since people tend to gang up on things they view as OP and tend to have uneducated opinions, the correct Rules As Writtten argument is often unpopular.

A person who is more concerned with popularity than with truth shouldn't be debating rules or acting as a judge with regards to the rules. Educated truth is more important than uneducated opinion.


I am open to anything educated and substantiated you have to offer on the issue at hand.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 06:06:03


Post by: Captyn_Bob


" when placing a unit in reserve , you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike"

So.. looks pretty clear.. you declare it, then you must do it. Otherwise you have just lied to your opponent.

Someone will probably now say there's no rule saying you can't lie to your opponent.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 06:10:00


Post by: CrownAxe


col_impact wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
col_impact wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?


I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.

Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.

So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.

If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.

You are just reading the rules incorrectly though.

It's why you are always the only person to be on your side of the argument. You're the one at fault


Feel free to point out any shortcomings in my argument. You can't just say 'you are just reading the rules incorrectly'.

You need to provide proof with rules citations or at least a compelling well-thought out argument. I am open to anything educated and substantiated you have to say about my argument.



A rules debate is not a popularity contest. The correct answer is not necessarily going to be the popular answer. In fact, since people tend to gang up on things they view as OP and tend to have uneducated opinions, the correct Rules As Writtten argument is often unpopular.

A person who is more concerned with popularity than with truth shouldn't be debating rules or acting as a judge with regards to the rules. Educated truth is more important than uneducated opinion.


I am open to anything educated and substantiated you have to offer on the issue at hand.

Ceann has already pointed out out the short comings of your argument

And i never said this was a popularity contest. But considering out of the 40-50 people who have argued against you in the last few years, NO ONE has ever agreed with you. If all you are doing is, as you put it, "simply reading the rules" wouldn't at least one person actually agree with you if you were indeed correct?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 06:15:00


Post by: col_impact


Captyn_Bob wrote:
" when placing a unit in reserve , you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike"

So.. looks pretty clear.. you declare it, then you must do it. Otherwise you have just lied to your opponent.

Someone will probably now say there's no rule saying you can't lie to your opponent.


This is the crux of the matter.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.

If a player exercises that option, that player isn't lying to the opponent. The player simply changed his or her mind and exercised his freedom to choose another option.

The key question to ask is this - if the player changes his mind and has his unit walk on the battlefield instead of Deep Striking (like he announced), did that player break any rule?

No. No, he did not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CrownAxe wrote:

And i never said this was a popularity contest. But considering out of the 40-50 people who have argued against you in the last few years, NO ONE has ever agreed with you. If all you are doing is, as you put it, "simply reading the rules" wouldn't at least one person actually agree with you if you were indeed correct?


This is a game where people choose sides on rules debates to gain advantages for themselves and/or impose disadvantages on others.

Since I am not trying to gain any advantages or impose any disadvantages, but rather to simply get at the truth of the matter, it is not surprising that I will encounter people arguing against me as they seek to push an agenda over principles of truth.

The philosopher's voice is the minority voice in YMDC.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 06:42:29


Post by: CrownAxe


What make you so special that you must be the only person who doesn't argue for an in game advantage? If you can do it, other people can do it.

If your argument was objectively correct some people would agree with you, it's that simple.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 06:50:29


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:
What make you so special that you must be the only person who doesn't argue for a in game advantage?

If your argument was objectively correct some people would agree with you, it's that simple.


Your statement fails due to the logical fallacy of 'argumentum ad numeram'.


If you have a problem with the argument that I am presenting then feel free to point out what that is with rules support and logical argumentation.

You seem to be going to great lengths to cast aspersions on what I am saying without actually providing a decent critique of my argument.

Veiled personal attacks are against the rules of this forum.

If my argument is wrong then prove its wrong. It's that simple.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 06:56:22


Post by: CrownAxe


col_impact wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
What make you so special that you must be the only person who doesn't argue for a in game advantage?

If your argument was objectively correct some people would agree with you, it's that simple.


If you have a problem with the argument that I am presenting then feel free to point out what that is with support.

You seem to be going to great lengths to cast aspersions on what I am saying without actually providing a decent critique of my argument.

Veiled personal attacks are against the rules of this forum.

Like I said before, other people have made that argument for me, I don't need to waste time repeating the same argument at ad nauseam like what happens in\ every thread you show up in.

And I've made a logical assessment on why your argument is not objectively sound. How is that an insult?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 06:59:06


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:

Like I said before, other people have made that argument for me, I don't need to waste time repeating the same argument at ad nauseam like what happens in\ every thread you show up in.

And I've made a logical assessment on why your argument is not objectively sound. How is that an insult?


Your logic is bad.

Your statement fails due to the logical fallacy of 'argumentum ad numeram'.


If my argument is wrong then prove its wrong. It's that simple.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:12:55


Post by: CrownAxe


col_impact wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Like I said before, other people have made that argument for me, I don't need to waste time repeating the same argument at ad nauseam like what happens in\ every thread you show up in.

And I've made a logical assessment on why your argument is not objectively sound. How is that an insult?


Your logic is bad.

Your statement fails due to the logical fallacy of 'argumentum ad numeram'.


If my argument is wrong then prove its wrong. It's that simple.

That doesn't apply because i'm not claiming i'm right because most people agree with it. I'm claiming that your argument is not objectively correct because if it were any reasonable people would agree with it at all and you have 0 people agree with you. And it would a statistical anomaly for every single person you have argued with over the last several years to be so biased that not one would adhere to logic and reason.


You argument has be disproven multiple times in every thread


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:19:32


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:

That doesn't apply because i'm not claiming i'm right because most people agree with it. I'm claiming that your argument is not objectively correct because if it were any reasonable people would agree with it at all and you have 0 people agree with you. And it would a statistical anomaly for every single person you have argued with over the last several years to be so biased that not one would adhere to logic and reason.


You argument has be disproven multiple times in every thread


Your statement is still suffering from the bad logic of 'argumentum ad numeram'.



And more importantly I am still waiting for you, or anyone, to actually disprove my argument.

If my argument is bad, as you say, then it should be easy to disprove.



Summary of argument

Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:24:57


Post by: CrownAxe


We have disproved it but you are too delusional to realize it


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:27:28


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:
We have disproved it but you are too delusional to realize it


In YMDC, you have to actually disprove my argument and not just claim I am delusional.

Why are you insisting on personally attacking me?

If my argument is wrong then prove it's wrong. It's that simple.



Summary of argument

Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:31:36


Post by: CrownAxe


Ceann has disproven your argument for me, if you want i can quote what he said.

Not acknowledging Ceann's argument just proves you are delusional


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:38:47


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:
Ceann has disproven your argument for me, if you want i can quote what he said.

Not acknowledging Ceann's argument just proves you are delusional


Page 1 of this thread has been nothing but me continually disproving Ceann's counter argument.

It's been easy to do since he doesn't actually use the rules for support and relies on assumptions in his head.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9328868

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9328887

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9328946

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9329036

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9329123

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9329148

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9329183


Summary of argument

Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:39:20


Post by: hippyjr


Well the rule for deep strike states that when placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that the
unit is arriving by deepstrike (assuming that is your plan at the start of the game).

I would say that since the rule specifically has you state the method of entry that you will be using then you have to keep to this choice, the same way you cant just change your list after the game starts. (if the rule simply told you state if they start in deepstrike reserve or not, it would be more open to interpretation: "hey, I said they were in deepstrike reserve, I never said they were actually going to deepstrike".
So in the same way you cant tell your opponent that your captain has a combi-melta and then change it to a combi-plasma mid game, you cannot claim a unit to be deepstriking onto the board prior to the game, then have them walk on midgame. I am pretty sure that lying to your opponent about your army is cheating, and since you have to tell your opponent what units are coming in via deepstrike etc., changing that is akin to changing anything else about your list.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:41:00


Post by: col_impact


 hippyjr wrote:
Well the rule for deep strike states that when placing the unit in reserve, you must tell your opponent that the
unit is arriving by deepstrike (assuming that is your plan at the start of the game).

I would say that since the rule specifically has you state the method of entry that you will be using then you have to keep to this choice, the same way you cant just change your list after the game starts. (if the rule simply told you state if they start in deepstrike reserve or not, it would be more open to interpretation: "hey, I said they were in deepstrike reserve, I never said they were actually going to deepstrike".
So in the same way you cant tell your opponent that your captain has a combi-melta and then change it to a combi-plasma mid game, you cannot claim a unit to be deepstriking onto the board prior to the game, then have them walk on midgame. I am pretty sure that lying to your opponent about your army is cheating, and since you have to tell your opponent what units are coming in via deepstrike etc., changing that is akin to changing anything else about your list.


Thanks for your input, hippyjr.

This is the crux of the matter.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike in order to enable the unit 'to be able to Deep Strike', but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction. Announcing is done to simply enable the unit 'to be able to Deep Strike'.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.

If a player exercises that option, that player isn't lying to the opponent. The player simply changed his or her mind and exercised his freedom to choose another option.

The key question to ask is this - if the player changes his mind and has his unit walk on the battlefield instead of Deep Striking (like he announced), did that player break any rule?

No. No, he did not.


Summary of argument

Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:47:06


Post by: CrownAxe


col_impact wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
Ceann has disproven your argument for me, if you want i can quote what he said.

Not acknowledging Ceann's argument just proves you are delusional


Page 1 of this thread has been nothing but me continually disproving Ceann's counter argument.

It's been easy to do since he doesn't actually use the rules for support and relies on assumptions in his head.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9328868

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9328887

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9328946

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9329036

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9329123

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9329148

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724447.page#9329183


Summary of argument

Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.

Dude none of what your argument is actually disproves Ceann, you just delusionally believe you do


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:48:41


Post by: Captyn_Bob


Announcing is levying a restriction.
When the rules force you to declare something(which is pretty rare) you are expected to do what you declare.
This is basic social contract.

You don't need the rules to tell you that lying to your opponent is not allowed , any more than you need a rule to tell you not to cheat.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 07:50:06


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:

Dude none of what your argument is actually disproves Ceann, you just delusionally believe you do


If my argument is wrong then prove me wrong. It's that simple.

Are you not intellectually up to the task?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
Announcing is levying a restriction.
When the rules force you to declare something(which is pretty rare) you are expected to do what you declare.
This is basic social contract.

You don't need the rules to tell you that lying to your opponent is not allowed , any more than you need a rule to tell you not to cheat.


It's odd that you bring accusations of lying and cheating against an opponent who simply changes his mind and exercises the freedom of options the rules legitimately give him.

The player simply announces again that "this unit is no longer Deep Striking and will walk on the battlefield instead". There you go. No lying. No cheating. Remember, the only thing the announcing was accomplishing was enabling the unit 'to be able to Deep Strike' and not locking the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking. Deep Strike does not.

At this point since you have outrageously called upon John Locke to make your argument, you are tacitly agreeing that there is indeed no rule in place in 40k requiring the player to Deep Strike. The player can simply legitimately claim the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves instead.


Summary of argument

Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 08:18:05


Post by: CrownAxe


col_impact wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Dude none of what your argument is actually disproves Ceann, you just delusionally believe you do


If my argument is wrong then prove me wrong. It's that simple.

Are you not intellectually up to the task?

What about "Ceann has already made the argument that proves you wrong" do you not get?

Are you actually stupid or do you just not know how to read?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 08:25:00


Post by: Captyn_Bob


col_impact wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:

Dude none of what your argument is actually disproves Ceann, you just delusionally believe you do


If my argument is wrong then prove me wrong. It's that simple.

Are you not intellectually up to the task?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
Announcing is levying a restriction.
When the rules force you to declare something(which is pretty rare) you are expected to do what you declare.
This is basic social contract.

You don't need the rules to tell you that lying to your opponent is not allowed , any more than you need a rule to tell you not to cheat.


It's odd that you bring accusations of lying and cheating against an opponent who simply changes his mind and exercises the freedom of options the rules legitimately give him.

The player simply announces again that "this unit is no longer Deep Striking and will walk on the battlefield instead". There you go. No lying. No cheating. Remember, the only thing the announcing was accomplishing was enabling the unit 'to be able to Deep Strike' and not locking the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking. Deep Strike does not.

At this point since you have outrageously called upon John Locke to make your argument, you are tacitly agreeing that there is indeed no rule in place in 40k requiring the player to Deep Strike. The player can simply legitimately claim the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves instead.


Summary of argument

Spoiler:
The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


I'm afraid I find your stance, that being forced to declare something and then not doing what you declare is within the rules, nonsensical.

I won't be debating further.
I'd advise others against arguing for arguments sake it's been making YMDC pretty crazy of late.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 08:32:17


Post by: col_impact


 CrownAxe wrote:

What about "Ceann has already made the argument that proves you wrong" do you not get?

Are you actually stupid or do you just not know how to read?


I proved Ceann wrong. The rules don't support his argument.

And you know this already which is why you are refusing to simply present a counter to my argument.

If my argument is wrong then prove me wrong. It's that simple.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Captyn_Bob wrote:


I'm afraid I find your stance, that being forced to declare something and then not doing what you declare is within the rules, nonsensical.

I won't be debating further.
I'd advise others against arguing for arguments sake it's been making YMDC pretty crazy of late.


So when you are tasked with providing a rule you fail to provide a rule and then proclaim YMDC crazy. That's another veiled personal attack.

If my argument is wrong then prove me wrong. It's that simple.

There is no rule locking the unit into Deep Striking. The announcement during deployment that enabled the unit to be able to Deep Strike is simply ammended when it comes time to roll for Reserves. The rules for Deep Strike (and not Outflank) keep the option open for the unit to choose instead to walk on the battlefield from Reserves.



Summary of argument

Spoiler:


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 08:47:15


Post by: CrownAxe


Col_Impact it's like you think 2+2=5.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 08:49:50


Post by: TonyL707


'will be arriving via Deep Strike'

Surely that makes it pretty absolute? It doesn't say maybe arriving by Deep Strike depending if I change my mind at a later time.

You announce it 'will be arriving via Deep Strike', surely this restricts you to actually arriving via Deep Strike?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 08:58:31


Post by: col_impact


TonyL707 wrote:
'will be arriving via Deep Strike'

Surely that makes it pretty absolute? It doesn't say maybe arriving by Deep Strike depending if I change my mind at a later time.

You announce it 'will be arriving via Deep Strike', surely this restricts you to actually arriving via Deep Strike?


The player is required to announce his intent so that the unit is 'able to Deep Strike'. But intent is the extent of it.

There is no rule that locks the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking.

The announcement doesn't bind the player in any way nor is it indicated to be non-revocable.

The rule could have placed the unit only in Deep Strike Reserves to make it binding and non-revocable.

Instead the rule placed the unit in both Deep Strike Reserves and Reserves to make it non-binding and revocable.

Per the rules, the player has the freedom to choose to walk on the battlefield from Reserves.




Summary of argument

Spoiler:


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 09:01:56


Post by: CrownAxe


col_impact wrote:
TonyL707 wrote:
'will be arriving via Deep Strike'

Surely that makes it pretty absolute? It doesn't say maybe arriving by Deep Strike depending if I change my mind at a later time.

You announce it 'will be arriving via Deep Strike', surely this restricts you to actually arriving via Deep Strike?


The player is required to announce his intent so that the unit is 'able to Deep Strike'. But intent is the extent of it.

There is no rule that locks the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking.

The announcement doesn't bind the player in any way nor is it indicated to be non-revocable.

Per the rules, the player has the freedom to choose to walk on the battlefield from Reserves.


Summary of argument

Spoiler:


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.

" when placing a unit in reserve , you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by deep strike"
No where does it say intent. You are making up words from thin air


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 09:04:40


Post by: TonyL707


col_impact wrote:
TonyL707 wrote:
'will be arriving via Deep Strike'

Surely that makes it pretty absolute? It doesn't say maybe arriving by Deep Strike depending if I change my mind at a later time.

You announce it 'will be arriving via Deep Strike', surely this restricts you to actually arriving via Deep Strike?


The player is required to announce his intent so that the unit is 'able to Deep Strike'. But intent is the extent of it.

There is no rule that locks the unit into Deep Striking. Outflank locks the unit into outflanking.

The announcement doesn't bind the player in any way nor is it indicated to be non-revocable.

The rule could have placed the unit only in Deep Strike Reserves to make it binding and non-revocable.

Instead the rule placed the unit in both Deep Strike Reserves and Reserves to make it non-binding and revocable.

Per the rules, the player has the freedom to choose to walk on the battlefield from Reserves.




Summary of argument

Spoiler:


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


That's not what the rules says, the rules doesn't say you announce your intention it says 'When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike'.

No if's/buts/or maybes, the unit 'will' be arriving by Deep Strike. RAW you don't get to change your mind later.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 09:11:05


Post by: col_impact


TonyL707 wrote:


That's not what the rules says, the rules doesn't say you announce your intention it says 'When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike'.

No if's/buts/or maybes, the unit 'will' be arriving by Deep Strike. RAW you don't get to change your mind later.


The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".




Summary of argument

Spoiler:


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

Technically, the player still has the option of having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 11:57:11


Post by: Rolsheen


A lot of back and forth for a rule set that will be obsolete soon, just wait till 8th ed and then they'll be an entire new rule set for everybody to ignore words, make up stuff or not understand basic English.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 13:35:52


Post by: Ceann


Col you are wrong.
The issue is that you never admit you are wrong.
If you were correct your absolute final point would be what you led with, but it never is.

Out flank states how you will arrive.
Out flank is a special rule.

Out flank determine especially how you arrive once you successfully get a reserve roll for them.

Deep strike tells you as part of the reserve roll how to deep strike. Both of these are absolutes once initiated, as they are special rules you cannot change the process until it is completed. Which is precisely what you are quoting some basic rule to do. It is a basic rule it means nothing in the face of a special rule that contradicts it.
"deploy as follows" is the only way they can deploy


Your nonsense about normal reserves is a basic rule that has been overridden by a special rule in both circumstances.
The issue is that you are deluded into thinking you still have a choice but you do not. The first paragraph of deep strike is only part of the rule not the entire rule, you cannot follow part of a rule.

Every time we have a discussion you find the words that make the outcome you want and then use those words and ignore the rest.
If this was a story then you are the boy who cried wolf. You have misrepresented the rules so many times no one even believes you anymore.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 13:45:56


Post by: Jacksmiles


Ceann wrote:

You have misrepresented the rules so many times no one even believes you anymore.


I mean, you're right on the rules in this instance, but was there even a hint of irony in that statement? Please tell me there was.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 13:52:40


Post by: Brother Ramses


This is akin to declaring which weapon you will use in close combat and then changing your mind after rolling to hit. Just because you declared intent of which weapon you were going to use, doesn't mean you had to use it.

Waste of breath with col_incompetent.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 13:53:49


Post by: Backspacehacker


No you can not, if you say they are ariving via deep strike they must arrive that way.

Its also worth noting that deepstrike reserves are separate from reserves, they are two different pools. At the start of the game you pick which unit is going to which pool, once they are in there, unless you have another special rule to summon them, they can only arrive the way that pool allows, no changing pools.

If they start in the deep strike pool, they must deep strike in. If they start in normal reserves, they must come in via normal reserve method.

t.A guy who half his army is deep strike.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 14:04:58


Post by: doctortom


 CrownAxe wrote:
col_impact wrote:
GodDamUser wrote:
Oh is this another lets see how many pages we get till the thread is locked?


I simply read the rules and argue based on what the rules actually say and not on what I want them to say.

Arguments that are based purely on the Rules As Written aren't always popular and often elicit a knee-jerk response from others.

So lots of pages of back-and-forth can be used up by the action of me simply pointing to others where their counter arguments aren't supported by any rules or aren't in accordance with what they rules actually say.

If people paused and checked thoroughly on what the rules actually say before posting on any given thread then a lot of back-and-forth could be spared.

You are just reading the rules incorrectly though.

It's why you are always the only person to be on your side of the argument. You're the one at fault


To be fair, it's now always. We did have the one thread where he was with most of the people and it was just Ceann and Brother Ramses on the other side. I would say there have been many threads like you describe, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:

Outflank takes away the above permission. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.


Actually I'd like to see you give the rules quote showing Outflank taking away the permission. From what I read, it looks like the two are similar. You declare you're outflanking, then it tells you how units that are outflanking come on. You declare you're deep striking when you put the unit in reserves, then it tells you how deep striking units come on. I don't see how you claim the permission is rescinded for outflanking but not for Deep Strike.

But, relating it back to the other thread, I concur with Charistoph's post that if you have some special rule (like Eternity Gate) it could override it, but otherwise I don't see that you get to change your mind after you've made the declaration. You've already declared how the unit is coming on, there's notthing written up giving you permission to change the declaration, so it seems you would be stuck with the declaration (unless codex rule/equipment shenanigans get involved)


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 15:00:17


Post by: Charistoph


Brother Ramses wrote:This is akin to declaring which weapon you will use in close combat and then changing your mind after rolling to hit. Just because you declared intent of which weapon you were going to use, doesn't mean you had to use it.

Or changing the target after you Roll To Hit.

"Okay, you hit with all of your Fire Dragons on my Gaunts, roll to Wound."
"Actually, I will be Wounding your Zooming Tyrant instead."
" this, I'm going home".

doctortom wrote:But, relating it back to the other thread, I concur with Charistoph's post that if you have some special rule (like Eternity Gate) it could override it, but otherwise I don't see that you get to change your mind after you've made the declaration. You've already declared how the unit is coming on, there's notthing written up giving you permission to change the declaration, so it seems you would be stuck with the declaration (unless codex rule/equipment shenanigans get involved)

Thank you. We don't always agree on some of these things.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 15:09:02


Post by: Ceann


I would like to point out as an aside, the Gate is not a special rule, and deep strike is. Which is how it is able to manipulate normal reserves and ongoing reserves. Deep Strike is listed as a special rule, in the codex, on the Army List Entry page for any unit that has deep strike.

It is accorded all precedence of a special rule and an Army List Entry. What you have here is essentially the exact same scenario. Someone claiming you can cancel deep strike halfway through, which you cannot. Short of another LABELED special rule.

Gate is not a special rule and deploying as normal from reserves is not either, gate can take precedence over the basic rules because it is a "codex rule".

Nearly all of a particular individuals arguments are based on permissions he assumes he has.
When I think we can all agree we are told what permissions we have by the rules and under what circumstances we can use said permissions.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 15:37:20


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
I would like to point out as an aside, the Gate is not a special rule, and deep strike is. Which is how it is able to manipulate normal reserves and ongoing reserves. Deep Strike is listed as a special rule, in the codex, on the Army List Entry page for any unit that has deep strike.

It is accorded all precedence of a special rule and an Army List Entry. What you have here is essentially the exact same scenario. Someone claiming you can cancel deep strike halfway through, which you cannot. Short of another LABELED special rule..


At the risk of derailing the thread, it's not quite the same. The Gate is an advanced rule in a codex, Deep Strike (as a special rule) is an advanced rule in the main rulebook. "On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule pprinted in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.." (page 13 main rulebook). The units are in reserve. Deep strike reserve is not treated as separate from reserves (or ongoing reserves) as per instructions in the codex - deep strike says "Roll for the arrival of Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves (p 135) and then deploy them as follows" Page 135 says "At the start of your second turn you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve - these are known as Reserve Rolls." It doesn't say anything about treating Deep Strike Reserve for rolling, so the Deep Strike rules are treating the unit as being in Reserves. "Deep Strike Reserves" is just an indicator of how they come onto the board when they come out of Reserves. This means they are treated as being in Reserves for purposes of the Gate, and through the codex > rulebook provision form page 13 could be deployed through the gate. (For that matter, anybody placed in Reserves for outflanking could be pulled out in the same manner). So, advanced rules in the codex do override advanced rules in the main rulebook.

This is a different situation than what we are dealing with here in this thread, though. We have units declared to be deep striking (or outflanking) and no advanced rule from a codex or supplement to override it. You've already committed to having them arrive via deep striking (or outflanking) and have no permission to change that declaration (by way of an advanced rule from a codex or supplement), therefore they must arrive by the method that you declared they will arrive.




Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 15:37:53


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
I would like to point out as an aside, the Gate is not a special rule, and deep strike is. Which is how it is able to manipulate normal reserves and ongoing reserves. Deep Strike is listed as a special rule, in the codex, on the Army List Entry page for any unit that has deep strike.

It is accorded all precedence of a special rule and an Army List Entry. What you have here is essentially the exact same scenario. Someone claiming you can cancel deep strike halfway through, which you cannot. Short of another LABELED special rule.

Gate is not a special rule and deploying as normal from reserves is not either, gate can take precedence over the basic rules because it is a "codex rule".

The Gate is not any kind of rule, it is Wargear. It does have special rules, though. Remember the definition, location does not matter in defining it as a special rule.

The reason its rules are special are four fold.
* It is not a Transport nor on a Transport, but units can Disembark through it.
* It is able to Disembark units that are not Embarked on the unit.
* It is able to override the procedure of Arriving From Reserves by virtue of bypassing the roll.
* It is able to remove a unit from off the table to reposition it via Disembarking.

All of these are breaking numerous rules, mostly advanced rules at that, and that is part of what defines a special rule. There is no other term for it because these sure aren't basic rules it is using.

There is absolutely no rule that states, "you cannot override a special rule without another labelled special rule." That is a farcical comment which is nowhere in the rulebook. "Codex rules" take precedence over ANY rules in the rulebook, not just the basic rules. Deep Strike is defined in the rulebook, so the Gate can override it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:
This is a different situation than what we are dealing with here in this thread, though. We have units declared to be deep striking (or outflanking) and no advanced rule from a codex or supplement to override it. You've already committed to having them arrive via deep striking (or outflanking) and have no permission to change that declaration (by way of an advanced rule from a codex or supplement), therefore they must arrive by the method that you declared they will arrive.

I did bring it up by virtue of the only way to counter the situation. I guess someone still has a burr about it, despite numerous points to the exact same rules that state otherwise to his opinion.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 15:44:40


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
I would like to point out as an aside, the Gate is not a special rule, and deep strike is. Which is how it is able to manipulate normal reserves and ongoing reserves. Deep Strike is listed as a special rule, in the codex, on the Army List Entry page for any unit that has deep strike.

It is accorded all precedence of a special rule and an Army List Entry. What you have here is essentially the exact same scenario. Someone claiming you can cancel deep strike halfway through, which you cannot. Short of another LABELED special rule.

Gate is not a special rule and deploying as normal from reserves is not either, gate can take precedence over the basic rules because it is a "codex rule".

The Gate is not any kind of rule, it is Wargear. It does have special rules, though. Remember the definition, location does not matter in defining it as a special rule.

The reason its rules are special are four fold.
* It is not a Transport nor on a Transport, but units can Disembark through it.
* It is able to Disembark units that are not Embarked on the unit.
* It is able to override the procedure of Arriving From Reserves by virtue of bypassing the roll.
* It is able to remove a unit from off the table to reposition it via Disembarking.

All of these are breaking numerous rules, mostly advanced rules at that, and that is part of what defines a special rule. There is no other term for it because these sure aren't basic rules it is using.

There is absolutely no rule that states, "you cannot override a special rule without another labelled special rule." That is a farcical comment which is nowhere in the rulebook. "Codex rules" take precedence over ANY rules in the rulebook, not just the basic rules. Deep Strike is defined in the rulebook, so the Gate can override it.


We as players are not allowed to decide what does and does not break the rules.
If you note any unit with Deep Strike on it's list entry, under Special Rules section of the list it will be noted as one, as with any other rule that is a special rule.
If it is not noted as one then it is not one, regardless of our opinions on the matter.

The reason its rules are not special are one and only one.

* We are not told it is one.

Open any codex, go to the page before the first unit and read the break down of an Army List Entry.
This in particular.

9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are
detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer
40,000: The Rules.


Eternity Gate is not listed as a special rule on the data sheet, so it is not one.
It is allowed to exert codex precedence over the basic rules, which is why it does work.
It is not allowed to supersede special rules, to my knowledge nothing is.
This is why Lance works over the shielding ability also, one is a special rule and one is not.
We are told where special rules exist and explicitly told where to find them.
This is also precisely why you cannot just walk onto the board after stating you will deep strike, you have already chosen to use the rule and you must use the entire rule, not a portion of a rule.

Hopefully when the 8th ed. rules drop that they make all of this a bit more clear, regardless of what side of it you are on.
I think we can all agree that we only want clarity.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 16:05:12


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
We as players are not allowed to decide what does and does not break the rules.
If you note any unit with Deep Strike on it's list entry, under Special Rules section of the list it will be noted as one, as with any other rule that is a special rule.
If it is not noted as one then it is not one, regardless of our opinions on the matter.

The reason its rules are not special are one and only one.

* We are not told it is one.

Open any codex, go to the page before the first unit and read the break down of an Army List Entry.
This in particular.

9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are
detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer
40,000: The Rules.


Eternity Gate is not listed as a special rule on the data sheet, so it is not one.
It is allowed to exert codex precedence over the basic rules, which is why it does work.
It is not allowed to supersede special rules, to my knowledge nothing is.
This is why Lance works over the shielding ability also, one is a special rule and one is not.
We are told where special rules exist and explicitly told where to find them.
This is also precisely why you cannot just walk onto the board after stating you will deep strike, you have already chosen to use the rule and you must use the entire rule, not a portion of a rule.

Hopefully when the 8th ed. rules drop that they make all of this a bit more clear, regardless of what side of it you are on.
I think we can all agree that we only want clarity.

Incorrect. Location is not the definition of a special rule. Nothing you have ever quoted on this subject states that this is the only place to find special rules. Special Rules listed as such are the the abilities which are not tied to any equipment.

A special rule is something that bends or breaks the game's rules. Being found in Wargear does not automatically make it basic rules or the game's rules. Does the Eternity Gate entirely follow the game's rules, or does it bend or break them? I gave a list of rules that it does bend and break, and those were advanced rules as well, so the Gate's rules definitely bend or break the rules.

That is the rulebook's definition, and that is what matters, period.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 16:13:20


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
I would like to point out as an aside, the Gate is not a special rule, and deep strike is. Which is how it is able to manipulate normal reserves and ongoing reserves. Deep Strike is listed as a special rule, in the codex, on the Army List Entry page for any unit that has deep strike.

It is accorded all precedence of a special rule and an Army List Entry. What you have here is essentially the exact same scenario. Someone claiming you can cancel deep strike halfway through, which you cannot. Short of another LABELED special rule.

Gate is not a special rule and deploying as normal from reserves is not either, gate can take precedence over the basic rules because it is a "codex rule".

The Gate is not any kind of rule, it is Wargear. It does have special rules, though. Remember the definition, location does not matter in defining it as a special rule.

The reason its rules are special are four fold.
* It is not a Transport nor on a Transport, but units can Disembark through it.
* It is able to Disembark units that are not Embarked on the unit.
* It is able to override the procedure of Arriving From Reserves by virtue of bypassing the roll.
* It is able to remove a unit from off the table to reposition it via Disembarking.

All of these are breaking numerous rules, mostly advanced rules at that, and that is part of what defines a special rule. There is no other term for it because these sure aren't basic rules it is using.

There is absolutely no rule that states, "you cannot override a special rule without another labelled special rule." That is a farcical comment which is nowhere in the rulebook. "Codex rules" take precedence over ANY rules in the rulebook, not just the basic rules. Deep Strike is defined in the rulebook, so the Gate can override it.


We as players are not allowed to decide what does and does not break the rules.
If you note any unit with Deep Strike on it's list entry, under Special Rules section of the list it will be noted as one, as with any other rule that is a special rule.
If it is not noted as one then it is not one, regardless of our opinions on the matter.

The reason its rules are not special are one and only one.

* We are not told it is one.

Open any codex, go to the page before the first unit and read the break down of an Army List Entry.
This in particular.

9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are
detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer
40,000: The Rules.


Eternity Gate is not listed as a special rule on the data sheet, so it is not one.
It is allowed to exert codex precedence over the basic rules, which is why it does work.
It is not allowed to supersede special rules, to my knowledge nothing is.
This is why Lance works over the shielding ability also, one is a special rule and one is not.
We are told where special rules exist and explicitly told where to find them.
This is also precisely why you cannot just walk onto the board after stating you will deep strike, you have already chosen to use the rule and you must use the entire rule, not a portion of a rule.

Hopefully when the 8th ed. rules drop that they make all of this a bit more clear, regardless of what side of it you are on.
I think we can all agree that we only want clarity.


Ceann, the main rulebook talks about basic vs. advanced, not special vs. non-special. I gave you the quote on how an advanced rule in a codex interacts with an advanced rule in the main rulebook. Insisting that the Gate doesn't override normal Deep Strike rules is you just trying to make rules up. Please refer back to page 13 in the main rulebook. I would also suggest that we drop this tangent as there will probably be more than enough going on here when col_impact rejoins the conversation, and we should probably not get this closed before he gets back because we derailed it into a subject that had already been closed up. Therefore, I would say that if you do not agree with what I said in my prevous post we should probably just agree to disagree on it.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 16:21:23


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
We as players are not allowed to decide what does and does not break the rules.
If you note any unit with Deep Strike on it's list entry, under Special Rules section of the list it will be noted as one, as with any other rule that is a special rule.
If it is not noted as one then it is not one, regardless of our opinions on the matter.

The reason its rules are not special are one and only one.

* We are not told it is one.

Open any codex, go to the page before the first unit and read the break down of an Army List Entry.
This in particular.

9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are
detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer
40,000: The Rules.


Eternity Gate is not listed as a special rule on the data sheet, so it is not one.
It is allowed to exert codex precedence over the basic rules, which is why it does work.
It is not allowed to supersede special rules, to my knowledge nothing is.
This is why Lance works over the shielding ability also, one is a special rule and one is not.
We are told where special rules exist and explicitly told where to find them.
This is also precisely why you cannot just walk onto the board after stating you will deep strike, you have already chosen to use the rule and you must use the entire rule, not a portion of a rule.

Hopefully when the 8th ed. rules drop that they make all of this a bit more clear, regardless of what side of it you are on.
I think we can all agree that we only want clarity.

Incorrect. Location is not the definition of a special rule. Nothing you have ever quoted on this subject states that this is the only place to find special rules. Special Rules listed as such are the the abilities which are not tied to any equipment.

A special rule is something that bends or breaks the game's rules. Being found in Wargear does not automatically make it basic rules or the game's rules. Does the Eternity Gate entirely follow the game's rules, or does it bend or break them? I gave a list of rules that it does bend and break, and those were advanced rules as well, so the Gate's rules definitely bend or break the rules.

That is the rulebook's definition, and that is what matters, period.


/sigh /triple face palm

Dude.


Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

It TELLS you when it is a special rule. You are pulling a "you know who" move by not stating the entire context of the statement.
So while you might THINK it is breaking rules, it isn't.
You can't decide it isn't a special rule because you were not told it was one.
Hence it is not represented by a special rule.
Because if it was then it would be.... "represented by a special rule".

Is rolling for reserves as normal, listed in the special rules section or represted by a special rule?
No.

Is deep strike?
Yes.

So we follow the rules for deep strike, because it is a special rule and special rules are listed IN THE CODEX on the datasheet under the "Special Rules" section of the Army List Entry.
The special rules in the BRB a repository for rules, if a rules is referenced on a data sheet it is permitted to use the rules being referenced unless it is superseded by a special rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 16:27:32


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
/sigh /triple face palm

Dude.


Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

It TELLS you when it is a special rule. You are pulling a "you know who" special by not stating the entire context of the statement.

Does the Eternity Gate, which a model has, have an ability that allows you to bend or break the game's rules? Yes, or no?

Do you accept the concept that a rule provided by a codex can override a USR? If not, can you demonstrate where it states otherwise?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 16:35:35


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
/sigh /triple face palm

Dude.


Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

It TELLS you when it is a special rule. You are pulling a "you know who" special by not stating the entire context of the statement.

Does the Eternity Gate, which a model has, have an ability that allows you to bend or break the game's rules? Yes, or no?

Do you accept the concept that a rule provided by a codex can override a USR? If not, can you demonstrate where it states otherwise?


9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

You are told BY THE CODEX what special rules you have.
Is Eternity Gate listed as a special rule?
No.

Is it represented by a Special Rule?
No.

So is it one?
No.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 16:39:23


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
/sigh /triple face palm

Dude.


Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

It TELLS you when it is a special rule. You are pulling a "you know who" special by not stating the entire context of the statement.

Does the Eternity Gate, which a model has, have an ability that allows you to bend or break the game's rules? Yes, or no?

Do you accept the concept that a rule provided by a codex can override a USR? If not, can you demonstrate where it states otherwise?


9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

You are told BY THE CODEX what special rules you have.
Is Eternity Gate listed as a special rule?
No.

Is it represented by a Special Rule?
No.

So is it one?
No.


That does not address his question. It also does not address what I said earlier. I'm starting to wonder if you just have me on ignore. It's not special vs. non-special rule, it's basic vs advanced rule, and the ruleook tells you how to handle a conflict between rules in a codex and ones in the main rulebook. Charistoph, if he's not willing to drop the argument and agree to disagree as I suggested earlier, you might bring this up more explicitly with him.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 16:50:27


Post by: Ceann


The issue tom is that basic vs advanced is just that, basic vs advanced. A USR is not a basic rule, if you want to conceptually put two rules a box, which one must be the basic rule and which one must be the advanced rule becomes quite clear.

You are exhibiting the same behavior of cherry picking statements from rules and using those as arguments.

BvA:

1. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

2. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence.

I don't need to address his question because his question is based on a false premise that he has permission, as a player, to decide what is and is not an advanced rule. That is the issue that everyone seems to have.

That is why this issue keeps coming up, because everyone see's this statement "bends or breaks a rule" ignores the part that it will be "represented by a special rule" and asserts they have the authority to decide which is which.

We are told that special rules are advanced rules.
We are told where to find special rules.
We are told they will be notated on the Army List Entry.
We are told advanced rules are in the Army List Entry.

If the only example we are given, of BvA in action, is to notate that a special rule is the advanced rule and that is the only example we are given other than a description. Then clearly only special rules are advanced rules.

In all of these situations Deep Strike is listed under the special rules section of Data Sheet and nothing else is.
Therefore Deep Strike has precedence.
Outflanking is the same way, it is listed under the special rules for the unit, it has precedence.
The only way we would actually have a conflict would be if there was a special rule in the codex and a USR and those conflicted, then the special rule from the codex would have precedence.
However there is no special rule here to contest Deep Strike.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 0022/04/27 16:55:26


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special
rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this book or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

You are told BY THE CODEX what special rules you have.
Is Eternity Gate listed as a special rule?
No.

Is it represented by a Special Rule?
No.

So is it one?
No.

That is a definition by location. That is not listed as the defining characteristic of a special rule. The term "only" is not used in the rulebook's or codices' comments on location. That restriction is completely yours.

Answer the questions:
Does the Eternity Gate, which a model has, have an ability that allows you to bend or break the game's rules? Yes, or no?

Do you accept the concept that a rule provided by a codex can override a USR? If not, can you demonstrate where it states otherwise?

doctortom wrote:Charistoph, if he's not willing to drop the argument and agree to disagree as I suggested earlier, you might bring this up more explicitly with him.

I have. He did not like the answers and just gave a politician's answer, i.e. answer the question he wanted instead of the one asked.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:00:05


Post by: Ceann


Does the Eternity Gate, which a model has, have an ability that allows you to bend or break the game's rules? Yes, or no?


Fabrication Charistoph I am disappointed.
This is what he would do.

1. WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.

2. Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

It has not been represented as one, nor has it been stated otherwise that it is one.
You need to answer... is Eternity Gate represented as a special rule? Yes, or no?
In order to represented as one, it would have to be in the Special Rules section of the datasheet.




Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:04:29


Post by: torblind


col_impact expresses himself in a way that is annoying, but in most cases technically correct, its therefor often not necessary for others to join in, so judging how right he is by how many who agrees with him is not fair.


There is no rule in the BRB that says you have to do what yo say.


I could say unit A will shoot at unit B, and then afterwards say "im rolling to run", and go on to roll a die to run unit A instead, no rule broken. Its not a nice way to behave, but its not illegal.


Likewise, I could put a unit in reserves and say it will deep strike, (this triggers a rule saying this unit is now in deep strike reserve, and also Reserves as he points out in red), but nothing in BRB says I have to do what I say, and nothing in the rules says it may now only arrive by deep strike.


Because the definition of putting a unit in deep strike is horribly worded by GW, "put in reserves and inform oponent", you end up with rules most likely being wrongly interpreted, strictly RAW.


Most people in the thread who argue say that when you say the "unit will arrive by DS", that unit now must arrive by DS. Changing the werb in that sentence already drastically changes the meaning.


I believe GW intended for the unit to now be locked to deploy by deep strike only, but their sentences strictly logically don't convey that meaning. Or they changed their mind while writing up rules, or different writers had different understanding of the rules. Its a mess anyway. But that is a RAI issue.

Had GW wanted this flexibilty, they would surely have expressed themselves differently, yet RAI.


When they wrote outflank they did a better job.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:05:39


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
The issue tom is that basic vs advanced is just that, basic vs advanced. A USR is not a basic rule, if you want to conceptually put two rules a box, which one must be the basic rule and which one must be the advanced rule becomes quite clear.

You are exhibiting the same behavior of cherry picking statements from rules and using those as arguments.

BvA:

1. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

2. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence.

I don't need to address his question because his question is based on a false premise that he has permission, as a player, to decide what is and is not an advanced rule. That is the issue that everyone seems to have.

That is why this issue keeps coming up, because everyone see's this statement "bends or breaks a rule" ignores the part that it will be "represented by a special rule" and asserts they have the authority to decide which is which.

We are told that special rules are advanced rules.
We are told where to find special rules.
We are told they will be notated on the Army List Entry.
We are told advanced rules are in the Army List Entry.

If the only example we are given, of BvA in action, is to notate that a special rule is the advanced rule and that is the only example we are given other than a description. Then clearly only special rules are advanced rules.


thank you for responding.

I do think your claim of cherry picking rules is way off-base. I am referring to THE rule that tells us how to handle basic rules and how to handle advanced rules. Yes, Deep Strike is a special rule. We know special rules are advanced rules because a) they are not in the core rules section, where we're told all the basic rules are, b) they are in the appendix, which we are told is a "collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities"

What about Eternity Gate? It contains advanced rules as well. I suggest you review what is stated on page 13 for a definition of advanced rules, as it covers more than just "special rules". All special rules are advanced rules, but not all advanced rules are special rules (and therefore, not only special rules are advanced rules). I think that is where your analysis falls apart. The Eternity gate has its own rules that override normal rules, so therefore cannot be basic rules. Also they are new rules in a codex, so aren't covered in the basic rules section. It would also fall under the advanced rules in the "apply to specific types of models" category - namely models equipped with it. "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry." Are the rules for Eternity Gate indicated there? Yes. We are dealing with an advanced rule for the Eternity Gate for pulling models out of Reserves. (We also override the basic rules about how to deploy units coming in from Reserves when we use it.) So, we have an advanced rule from the main rulebook (Deep Strike) compared to an advanced rule in a Codex (Eternity Gate). According to page 13, Codex advanced rule beats main rulebook advanced rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:
Does the Eternity Gate, which a model has, have an ability that allows you to bend or break the game's rules? Yes, or no?


Fabrication Charistoph I am disappointed.
This is what he would do.

1. WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.

2. Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

It has not been represented as one, nor has it been stated otherwise that it is one.
You need to answer... is Eternity Gate represented as a special rule? Yes, or no?
In order to represented as one, it would have to be in the Special Rules section of the datasheet.




Unfortunately what you do here is not going by the rules. You should not be asking what special rules do I have, but what advanced rules do I have? It just happens that Eternity Gate has a special rule. Basic rules do not allow you to take a unit from Reserves and deploy it in front of the monolith. Then again, Reserves rules are advanced rules by themselves, so any rules involving reserves are advanced rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
torblind wrote:
col_impact expresses himself in a way that is annoying, but in most cases technically correct, its therefor often not necessary for others to join in, so judging how right he is by how many who agrees with him is not fair.


There is no rule in the BRB that says you have to do what yo say.


I could say unit A will shoot at unit B, and then afterwards say "im rolling to run", and go on to roll a die to run unit A instead, no rule broken. Its not a nice way to behave, but its not illegal.


Likewise, I could put a unit in reserves and say it will deep strike, (this triggers a rule saying this unit is now in deep strike reserve, and also Reserves as he points out in red), but nothing in BRB says I have to do what I say, and nothing in the rules says it may now only arrive by deep strike.


Because the definition of putting a unit in deep strike is horribly worded by GW, "put in reserves and inform oponent", you end up with rules most likely being wrongly interpreted, strictly RAW.


Most people in the thread who argue say that when you say the "unit will arrive by DS", that unit now must arrive by DS. Changing the werb in that sentence already drastically changes the meaning.


I believe GW intended for the unit to now be locked to deploy by deep strike only, but their sentences strictly logically don't convey that meaning. Or they changed their mind while writing up rules, or different writers had different understanding of the rules. Its a mess anyway. But that is a RAI issue.

Had GW wanted this flexibilty, they would surely have expressed themselves differently, yet RAI.


When they wrote outflank they did a better job.


The problem is that he says outflanking takes away permission, but deep striking doesn't. How so? For outflanking you declare they are outflanking. The rules later tell you how to handle outflanking units. You declare you are deep striking. The rules tell you how to handle deep striking units. If the declaration take away the permission to just walk on for outflanking units, then in order for him to be consistent, then deep striking units would also have had their permission to just walked on revoked in just the same manner it's revoked for outflankers. No, there's no rule in the BRB that you have to do what you say, but I do think there is a good argument for the point that at the time you declare that the unit is either deep striking or outflanking, you have defined the unit as a deep stirking unit or an outflanking unit, which means they are subject to the rules of having to follow through on how those types of units are instructed to com onto the board (unless, of course, there's an advanced rule associated with something in a codex that would override it - the Ceann/Charisoph/ myself sidebar going on now).

His argument about units the must deep strike cherry picks and ignores that they are required to be placed in reserves as well as being required to deep strike. Merely saying they are required in reserves would not cover them deep striking at all; it has to mention it in order to ensure they deep strike. That does not mean that it's an exclusionary statement in that only they are forced to deep strike. As I said, once you've made the commitment to deep strike you've defined your unit in a manner that makes you have to follow the deep strike rules for deployment.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:18:28


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:
The issue tom is that basic vs advanced is just that, basic vs advanced. A USR is not a basic rule, if you want to conceptually put two rules a box, which one must be the basic rule and which one must be the advanced rule becomes quite clear.

You are exhibiting the same behavior of cherry picking statements from rules and using those as arguments.

BvA:

1. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated
in its Army List Entry.

2. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks - the advanced rule takes precedence.

I don't need to address his question because his question is based on a false premise that he has permission, as a player, to decide what is and is not an advanced rule. That is the issue that everyone seems to have.

That is why this issue keeps coming up, because everyone see's this statement "bends or breaks a rule" ignores the part that it will be "represented by a special rule" and asserts they have the authority to decide which is which.

We are told that special rules are advanced rules.
We are told where to find special rules.
We are told they will be notated on the Army List Entry.
We are told advanced rules are in the Army List Entry.

If the only example we are given, of BvA in action, is to notate that a special rule is the advanced rule and that is the only example we are given other than a description. Then clearly only special rules are advanced rules.


thank you for responding.

I do think your claim of cherry picking rules is way off-base. I am referring to THE rule that tells us how to handle basic rules and how to handle advanced rules. Yes, Deep Strike is a special rule. We know special rules are advanced rules because a) they are not in the core rules section, where we're told all the basic rules are, b) they are in the appendix, which we are told is a "collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities"

What about Eternity Gate? It contains advanced rules as well. I suggest you review what is stated on page 13 for a definition of advanced rules, as it covers more than just "special rules". All special rules are advanced rules, but not all advanced rules are special rules (and therefore, not only special rules are advanced rules). I think that is where your analysis falls apart. The Eternity gate has its own rules that override normal rules, so therefore cannot be basic rules. Also they are new rules in a codex, so aren't covered in the basic rules section. It would also fall under the advanced rules in the "apply to specific types of models" category - namely models equipped with it. "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry." Are the rules for Eternity Gate indicated there? Yes. We are dealing with an advanced rule for the Eternity Gate for pulling models out of Reserves. (We also override the basic rules about how to deploy units coming in from Reserves when we use it.) So, we have an advanced rule from the main rulebook (Deep Strike) compared to an advanced rule in a Codex (Eternity Gate). According to page 13, Codex advanced rule beats main rulebook advanced rule.


I feel like I am trying to be quite honest about BvA. It gives us a description of the kinds of things that might be advanced rules. That is it, a description. We are not given permission to freely on our own decide what is and is not an advanced rule. The only location it gives us as to where they might be located is an Army List Entry or Codex.

Eternity Gate is not an advanced rule, that is an assumption based on the description that is provided. In the example of what BvA is, it states that a special rule is the advanced rule and takes precedence.
Eternity Gate works as normal because if conflicts with the basic deployment rules, but by being in a codex it has precedence. Note that the basic reserve rules are not notated on the data sheet.
Deep Strike is a special rule, is notated as such on the data sheet. You cannot use part of a special rule, deep striking involves the entire process of placing it in reserves to the point it arrives. Anything that changes that is conflicting with the process.

Reanimation Protocols is a special rule, so is Chapter Tactics, if Eternity Gate was a special rule then it could easily be located under the special rule section of the units data sheet, but it isn't, if that were the case it would clearly have precedence.

Deep strike and outflank are both located in the special rules section of any unit that has them,

BvA tells us "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because..."
Because means, reasons. We are given reasons why advanced rules would apply.
Not what they ARE, but why they apply.
We are then told "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."
Then provided an example of a special rule as being the advanced rule.
The two statements tell us what they apply too, and then tell us where the rules that apply are indicated.

I have drawn no conclusions on my own, nor decided I have permission to decide what rule is what rule.
The entire purpose of BvA is to poorly explain to us that special rules have precedence.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:30:23


Post by: torblind


 doctortom wrote:
The problem is that he says outflanking takes away permission, but deep striking doesn't. How so? For outflanking you declare they are outflanking. The rules later tell you how to handle outflanking units. You declare you are deep striking. The rules tell you how to handle deep striking units.


I agree these look like very similar mechanics. But as always with RAW, the devil is in the details, every last tiny one.

For outflank it says literally:

When this unit arrives from Reserves, ...


Those few words make all the difference in the world. There is no such formal restriction on any paragraphs of the Deep Strike Rule.

Again I am dead certain that if GW wanted to make this distinction between the two methods (DS and OF), they wouldn't have hidden away the crucial difference between them in this one sentence deep inside BRB.

Now col_impact is being a total d*** about what is logical and strict, which is why those who agree (like me) seldom join in, and people with emotions (which covers well above 90% of us), get into these long angry and eventually locked YMDC threads.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:34:57


Post by: Ceann


torblind wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
The problem is that he says outflanking takes away permission, but deep striking doesn't. How so? For outflanking you declare they are outflanking. The rules later tell you how to handle outflanking units. You declare you are deep striking. The rules tell you how to handle deep striking units.


I agree these look like very similar mechanics. But as always with RAW, the devil is in the details, every last tiny one.

For outflank it says literally:

When this unit arrives from Reserves, ...


Those few words make all the difference in the world. There is no such formal restriction on any paragraphs of the Deep Strike Rule.

Again I am dead certain that if GW wanted to make this distinction between the two methods (DS and OF), they wouldn't have hidden away the crucial difference between them in this one sentence deep inside BRB.

Now col_impact is being a total d*** about what is logical and strict, which is why those who agree (like me) seldom join in, and people with emotions (which covers well above 90% of us), get into these long angry and eventually locked YMDC threads.


But the devil is entirely in the details.
"Reserves" as a standard deployment procedure takes place within the basic rules.
Outflanking and Deep Strike are special rules, special rules have a precedence when there is a conflict.

Outflank and Deep Strike dictate EXACTLY how you MUST arrive when using them.
If you try to bring that unit in via some other fashion, then you are conflicting with how the two special rules dictate they arrive.
You cannot use them to claim you are deploying in a particular fashion and then stop using the rule later to change it.
When you declare them in your deployment phase the bullet has effectively left the barrel, the grenade has been thrown.
You have no option to stop it "mid air" and change your mind. You have begun using the rule and must use the rule until it has been completed in it's finality.
Only a duly noted special rule from a codex could change the circumstances of their arrival.

Arriving from your board edge is not that circumstance.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:43:48


Post by: Brother Ramses


Some people are going to love 8th Edition Narrative Play with how much crap they just make-up.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:47:35


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
I feel like I am trying to be quite honest about BvA. It gives us a description of the kinds of things that might be advanced rules. That is it, a description. We are not given permission to freely on our own decide what is and is not an advanced rule. The only location it gives us as to where they might be located is an Army List Entry or Codex.


You suffer from a misconception here. We are told what basic rules are and what advanced rules are. We are given permission to decide what is an advanced rule by the fact that they have defined what the basic rules are, and as the only categories are basic and advanced rules, if it is not a basic rule then it must be an advanced rule.

In matter of fact, we are required to be able to tell if a rule is a basic rule or an advanced rule when having to deal iwth the interaction between two rules. Otherwise, you would never know how to apply the basic vs advanced sidebar.




Ceann wrote:
Eternity Gate is not an advanced rule, that is an assumption based on the description that is provided. In the example of what BvA is, it states that a special rule is the advanced rule and takes precedence.
Eternity Gate works as normal because if conflicts with the basic deployment rules, but by being in a codex it has precedence. Note that the basic reserve rules are not notated on the data sheet.
Deep Strike is a special rule, is notated as such on the data sheet. You cannot use part of a special rule, deep striking involves the entire process of placing it in reserves to the point it arrives. Anything that changes that is conflicting with the process.


No assumptions made at all. It is compared to the basic rules in the Core Rules section. Are the rules for Eternity gate rules that are in the Core Rules section? No. Therefore, it is not a basic rule. It breaks or bends one of the main game rules, so it meets the definition of a special rule. It can be used for any unit in Reserves, so it is not strictly following vehicle rules (as you are not dealing with a unit embarked in the vehicle) (Vehicle rules are advanced rules, by the way, meeting the "are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)", so even if it were merely disembarking rules you are still dealing with advanced rules)

So, not only do you not have a lack of permission, you have a duty to be able to tell if a rule is basic or advanced. Your problem is that you are treating special rules as the only advanced rules when page 13 clearly has a broader definition than that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:
[

But the devil is entirely in the details.
"Reserves" as a standard deployment procedure takes place within the basic rules.


Well, to put a point on it, the devil IS in the details. The first sentence for MISSION SPECIAL RULES on page 135 (the title of the section alone should be a big tip off): "Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel you need to be represented by your battle." So, we have just had the section with Mission Special Rules defined as Special Rules. And, since Special Rules are advanced rules, that means that the rules for Reserves there are advanced rules, not basic rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 17:53:40


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:Does the Eternity Gate, which a model has, have an ability that allows you to bend or break the game's rules? Yes, or no?

Fabrication Charistoph I am disappointed.
This is what he would do.

1. WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.

2. Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

It has not been represented as one, nor has it been stated otherwise that it is one.
You need to answer... is Eternity Gate represented as a special rule? Yes, or no?
In order to represented as one, it would have to be in the Special Rules section of the datasheet.

No fabrication, I am just applying the situation as the rulebook defines it, not as the rulebook locates it. Note the difference in verb, "defines" vs "locates". You are only going by location, not definition. That is a fabrication.

I also note that you did not answer the questions:
Does the Eternity Gate, which a model has, have an ability that allows you to bend or break the game's rules? Yes, or no?

Do you accept the concept that a rule provided by a codex can override a USR? If not, can you demonstrate where it states otherwise?

torblind wrote:col_impact expresses himself in a way that is annoying, but in most cases technically correct, its therefor often not necessary for others to join in, so judging how right he is by how many who agrees with him is not fair.

While I agree on the second part, he more often is not technically correct as he often takes things out of context, and ignores things that would say otherwise, even in the very sentence he is nit-picking rules from.

torblind wrote:There is no rule in the BRB that says you have to do what yo say.

A false premise. That is the equivalent of saying, "but it doesn't say I can't". Please review the Forum Tenet Rules #1 and take particular note of the link on how to have an intelligent rules debate..

torblind wrote:I could say unit A will shoot at unit B, and then afterwards say "im rolling to run", and go on to roll a die to run unit A instead, no rule broken. Its not a nice way to behave, but its not illegal.

It depends on when you are announcing you are rolling to Run. If you are doing it during the To Wound portion of the Shooting Sequence, it is rather disingenuous and basically lying to your opponent. It is poor sportsmanship and will cause that you to lose any games.

torblind wrote:Likewise, I could put a unit in reserves and say it will deep strike, (this triggers a rule saying this unit is now in deep strike reserve, and also Reserves as he points out in red), but nothing in BRB says I have to do what I say, and nothing in the rules says it may now only arrive by deep strike.

If you change your mind in Deployment, most will see no problem with it any more than they would if you changed Targets before selecting a Weapon and rolling To Hit. But as has pointed out repeatedly, once the game starts, there is no permission set allowing you to change how a unit Arrives From Reserves except through codex rules. Doing so is following a, "but it doesn't say I can't" mentality.

torblind wrote:Most people in the thread who argue say that when you say the "unit will arrive by DS", that unit now must arrive by DS. Changing the werb in that sentence already drastically changes the meaning.

A change caused by tense. One is defining an action of the future. The other is regarding the fulfillment of that expectation.

Ceann wrote:I feel like I am trying to be quite honest about BvA. It gives us a description of the kinds of things that might be advanced rules. That is it, a description. We are not given permission to freely on our own decide what is and is not an advanced rule. The only location it gives us as to where they might be located is an Army List Entry or Codex.

Not true. It only states it is indicated, on there, not located there. Are you aware of the difference in these terms?

All special rules are advanced rules. All advanced rules carry special rules, otherwise, they are basic rules which would not allow them to be advanced.

Ceann wrote:Eternity Gate is not an advanced rule, that is an assumption based on the description that is provided. In the example of what BvA is, it states that a special rule is the advanced rule and takes precedence.
Eternity Gate works as normal because if conflicts with the basic deployment rules, but by being in a codex it has precedence. Note that the basic reserve rules are not notated on the data sheet.
Deep Strike is a special rule, is notated as such on the data sheet. You cannot use part of a special rule, deep striking involves the entire process of placing it in reserves to the point it arrives. Anything that changes that is conflicting with the process.

You are incorrect that you cannot use part of a special rule. See the Pysker Power Gate of Infinity and how it works for an example. See also how Stubborn deals with Fearless for another example of only using part of a special rule.

Ceann wrote:Reanimation Protocols is a special rule, so is Chapter Tactics, if Eternity Gate was a special rule then it could easily be located under the special rule section of the units data sheet, but it isn't, if that were the case it would clearly have precedence.

Deep strike and outflank are both located in the special rules section of any unit that has them,

BvA tells us "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because..."
Because means, reasons. We are given reasons why advanced rules would apply.
Not what they ARE, but why they apply.
We are then told "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."
Then provided an example of a special rule as being the advanced rule.
The two statements tell us what they apply too, and then tell us where the rules that apply are indicated.

I have drawn no conclusions on my own, nor decided I have permission to decide what rule is what rule.

You have drawn conclusions of your own, otherwise you would be questioning what we are saying and not having a determination to fight against what we are saying.

So, let me ask you this, If the Eternity Gate's rules are not advanced nor special, what are they?

They are not basic, as they are defined in the codex, not the rulebook, nor defined as basic rules there. Nor do they even interact with any basic rule, as they address advanced rules regarding Reserves and Transports.

The Eternity Gate is a piece of Wargear and not rules. Wargear, much like models, carry rules. They cannot be basic rules, as they modify rules that are already defined as advanced in the rulebook.

Do the rules of the Eternity Gate fit any of the categories which define an advanced rule?
* Special kind of Weapon? Nope.
* Cause it to be different from its fellows? Nope.
* Cause it to be a not normal infantry model? Nope.
* Unusual Skill? Yes. It allows the model to do something that no other model without an Eternity Gate can do.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
torblind wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
The problem is that he says outflanking takes away permission, but deep striking doesn't. How so? For outflanking you declare they are outflanking. The rules later tell you how to handle outflanking units. You declare you are deep striking. The rules tell you how to handle deep striking units.


I agree these look like very similar mechanics. But as always with RAW, the devil is in the details, every last tiny one.

For outflank it says literally:

When this unit arrives from Reserves, ...


Those few words make all the difference in the world. There is no such formal restriction on any paragraphs of the Deep Strike Rule.

Again I am dead certain that if GW wanted to make this distinction between the two methods (DS and OF), they wouldn't have hidden away the crucial difference between them in this one sentence deep inside BRB.

From Deep Strike:
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows...
Only changing how they get on the table at this point.

In the Movement phase during which they arrive...
You rolled for getting them out of Reserves, and then they Arrive.

So, since it only changes the method of placing the units on the table, not the prerequisites, of Arriving From Reserves, it is somehow not included as "arriving from reserves"?

Ceann wrote:But the devil is entirely in the details.
"Reserves" as a standard deployment procedure takes place within the basic rules.
Outflanking and Deep Strike are special rules, special rules have a precedence when there is a conflict.

Incorrect. Reserves is a Mission Special Rule. It is not basic. Just because we are used to using it, does not define it as basic. That is your biggest problem with these definitions. You are taking something that is basic to us or to something else and defining it as basic without thinking about how the game sees it.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 18:03:34


Post by: doctortom


torblind wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
The problem is that he says outflanking takes away permission, but deep striking doesn't. How so? For outflanking you declare they are outflanking. The rules later tell you how to handle outflanking units. You declare you are deep striking. The rules tell you how to handle deep striking units.


I agree these look like very similar mechanics. But as always with RAW, the devil is in the details, every last tiny one.

For outflank it says literally:

When this unit arrives from Reserves, ...


Those few words make all the difference in the world. There is no such formal restriction on any paragraphs of the Deep Strike Rule.

Again I am dead certain that if GW wanted to make this distinction between the two methods (DS and OF), they wouldn't have hidden away the crucial difference between them in this one sentence deep inside BRB.

Now col_impact is being a total d*** about what is logical and strict, which is why those who agree (like me) seldom join in, and people with emotions (which covers well above 90% of us), get into these long angry and eventually locked YMDC threads.


My mini-rulebook says "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not from Ongoing Reserves..." It doesn't just say "when this unit arrives from Reserves"

Huh, how about that? Conflicting statements between the two books we are looking at. No wonder there's an argument about it! I don't know which one is more recent (I suspect the mini-rulebook might be a corrected version given the specificity you're talking about being here but not in your quote - it looks like my quote is more of a correction of yours rather than the other way around. I can easily see, though why this would be seen differently, depending on which version of the book you have! Unfortunately I don't see it mentioned in the FAQ. Can somebody with an enhanced digital version give the quote from Outflank so we can clear up what's the most recent version? I would imagine the updates would have that version being more recent. It doesn't make sense to argue about the deep striking and reserves any more until we get this cleared up, as it is probably the different wordings causing the conflict.


Thanks for posting and for answering my earlier question; this wouldn't have come to light if you hadn't!!!!



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 18:17:43


Post by: Charistoph


 doctortom wrote:
My mini-rulebook says "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not from Ongoing Reserves..." It doesn't just say "when this unit arrives from Reserves"

Huh, how about that? Conflicting statements between the two books we are looking at. No wonder there's an argument about it! I don't know which one is more recent (I suspect the mini-rulebook might be a corrected version given the specificity you're talking about being here but not in your quote - it looks like my quote is more of a correction of yours rather than the other way around. I can easily see, though why this would be seen differently, depending on which version of the book you have! Unfortunately I don't see it mentioned in the FAQ. Can somebody with an enhanced digital version give the quote from Outflank so we can clear up what's the most recent version? I would imagine the updates would have that version being more recent. It doesn't make sense to argue about the deep striking and reserves any more until we get this cleared up, as it is probably the different wordings causing the conflict.


Thanks for posting and for answering my earlier question; this wouldn't have come to light if you hadn't!!!!

There are 3 instances of Outflank, one for the rule itself, one for Scout, and one for Infiltrate. The latter two state, "When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve...", while the Special Rule itself is as you point out your rulebook states.

I'm thinking torblind was quoting from one of the sub-references found in Scout or Infiltrate, not Outflank itself.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 19:03:55


Post by: Ceann


Please read your data sheets.

8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are
armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The
cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost.

9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here.

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

We are told that the unit has basic equipment.
Therefore all of the equipment it has, are basic rules used for that unit in that codex.

Special rules are annotated for a REASON.
The special rules field would have no reason to exist other than to reference USR's which is clearly not the case.
There are plenty of pieces of wargear that notate specifically when they have a Special Rule.
If they were all advanced rules then this would again, have no purpose.

You guys are greatly misinterpreting basic vs advanced.
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models whether because they have..."

Now please follow what I am saying.
It is telling you the circumstances, under which something WOULD have an advanced rule.
Not that the things listed ARE advanced rules.
Because... "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."

We are never anywhere given permission to make such determinations on our own.

The ONLY example of an advanced rule is this...

For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.

We are told in the special rules section that models do not have special rules unless told otherwise.
The only place we are told what special rules a unit or model has, is on it's army list entry, in the special rules section of the data sheet.

Because we are dealing with special rules you are required to follow through the entire process of using them. Because otherwise you are not using the rule. The examples you provided of Stubborn and Fearless are not accurate examples because both of those are special rules and are notated as special rules and specifically notate how they interact in order to not cause a conflict between the two of them.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 19:24:50


Post by: doctortom


 Charistoph wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
My mini-rulebook says "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not from Ongoing Reserves..." It doesn't just say "when this unit arrives from Reserves"

Huh, how about that? Conflicting statements between the two books we are looking at. No wonder there's an argument about it! I don't know which one is more recent (I suspect the mini-rulebook might be a corrected version given the specificity you're talking about being here but not in your quote - it looks like my quote is more of a correction of yours rather than the other way around. I can easily see, though why this would be seen differently, depending on which version of the book you have! Unfortunately I don't see it mentioned in the FAQ. Can somebody with an enhanced digital version give the quote from Outflank so we can clear up what's the most recent version? I would imagine the updates would have that version being more recent. It doesn't make sense to argue about the deep striking and reserves any more until we get this cleared up, as it is probably the different wordings causing the conflict.


Thanks for posting and for answering my earlier question; this wouldn't have come to light if you hadn't!!!!

There are 3 instances of Outflank, one for the rule itself, one for Scout, and one for Infiltrate. The latter two state, "When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve...", while the Special Rule itself is as you point out your rulebook states.

I'm thinking torblind was quoting from one of the sub-references found in Scout or Infiltrate, not Outflank itself.


Good point. Looking, they do say "this unit" in the outflank section of Infiltrate and Scout, but my quote came directly from the Outflank rule. Strange that they changed a bit what they said for outflank in the sections for the other rules from the outflank rule itself, and don't reference the outflank special rule by page number but rely on the outflank rules in the scout or infiltrate part instead.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 19:48:20


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
Please read your data sheets.

8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are
armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The
cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost.

9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here.

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

We are told that the unit has basic equipment.
Therefore all of the equipment it has, are basic rules used for that unit in that codex.

Basic to the unit, but that doesn't mean that what they carry is basic to the game.

Review Terminator Squads for an example.
What is the basic Armour of the Terminator?
Does it carry any Special Rules?
What else does the Terminator Armour do to the model that isn't covered by a Universal Special Rule?
How is this different from how a normal Infantry model would play?
Does this break any of the game's rules?

Ceann wrote:
Special rules are annotated for a REASON.
The special rules field would have no reason to exist other than to reference USR's which is clearly not the case.
There are plenty of pieces of wargear that notate specifically when they have a Special Rule.
If they were all advanced rules then this would again, have no purpose.

Why would it have no purpose if both Wargear and Special Rules are both advanced rules? You are being far too closed minded on this.

Some things are tied to a modeled piece of equipment. There is a large portal on the front of a Monolith. What is it? It's the Eternity Gate. What does it do? A lot of things which you would not be able to do under any rule in the rulebook.

If something is not or cannot be referenced by a piece of Wargear or unit type, it is one of their skills, innate and without reference to any of their equipment. This is how GW has written the 40K game.

Ceann wrote:
You guys are greatly misinterpreting basic vs advanced.
"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models whether because they have..."

Now please follow what I am saying.
It is telling you the circumstances, under which something WOULD have an advanced rule.
Not that the things listed ARE advanced rules.
Because... "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."

We are never anywhere given permission to make such determinations on our own.

So why are you making this determination on your own? You have stated numerous things with no support. You have quoted many things out of context. You have ignored the direct quotes we have provided which state the exact opposite of your position.

Ceann wrote:
The ONLY example of an advanced rule is this...

For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does
not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.

False. It gives many examples while providing its definition.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

Numerous definitions provided by the term "because", and numerous examples provided by the phrase, "such as".

Ceann wrote:
We are told in the special rules section that models do not have special rules unless told otherwise.
The only place we are told what special rules a unit or model has, is on it's army list entry, in the special rules section of the data sheet.

False. At no place does it state that the only place we may find Special Rules for a unit or model is under the Special Rules heading of its army list entry. The word "only" is missing. Models with the Bike Unit Type do not list "Relentless" any more than Terminator models. Do they not have the Relentless Special Rule? Of course they do. Why? It is not found under their Special Rules heading. The reason they have these special rules is that Relentless can be found in either its Unit Type (for the Bikes) or their Wargear (for the Terminator models).

If I can provide such a Special Rule to a unit without using the Special Rules entry of their army list entry, might I not provide others? Do all Special Rules have to have a special name? Not really. The ability is what is important. It is an unusual skill the Wargear provides. That is part of what makes a model have an unusual skill. How then is this not advanced by every determination of such?

This goes to show your "definition by location" is a complete and total false determination made by you.

Ceann wrote:
Because we are dealing with special rules you are required to follow through the entire process of using them. Because otherwise you are not using the rule. The examples you provided of Stubborn and Fearless are not accurate examples because both of those are special rules and are notated as special rules and specifically notate how they interact in order to not cause a conflict between the two of them.

It is not. I was demonstrating how you do use part of a special rule at times. If a unit has both Stubborn and Fearless applied to it, I can only use the last sentence of Stubborn, and not the first. That is using only a part of the special rule. Your standard has no weight because it fails when we start applying other rules to them.

Neither Outflank or Deep Strike grant permission to change a unit's method of Arriving From Reserves once the game starts, yet, the Eternity Gate allows a Monolith to do exactly that after the game starts. That is the definition of a special rule and advanced rule. It does things that you cannot normally do.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 19:53:54


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
Please read your data sheets.

8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are
armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The
cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost.

9. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here.

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule.

We are told that the unit has basic equipment.
Therefore all of the equipment it has, are basic rules used for that unit in that codex.


Faulty logic there - basic equipment refers to the equipment that it always has, as opposed to optional equipment that you may choose to purchase. This does not mean that the equipment is all basic and treated as basic rules. Also, that does not preclude the wargear from having special rules. That statement only covers special rules that the unit endemically has, not special rules contained in the wargear. We do know for a fact that wargear contains advanced rules, as a boltgun is listed as an example of a "special kind of weapon" that is defined on page 13 as being/having advanced rules. Is a boltgun "basic equipment" on some datasheets? Yes. Does a boltgun have advanced rules? Yes, according to page 13 in the basic vs advanced sidebar. Therefore, merely saying "basic equpment" doe NOT mean "basic rules"



Ceann wrote:
You guys are greatly misinterpreting basic vs advanced..


No, not at all. You have demonstrated that you cannot even provide the correct information on where the basic rules end in the book, or what basic vs advanced is since you want to define special rules as being the only advanced rules, despite the definition of advanced rules disputing this. This is not cherry picking from that section, by the way, this is going with their definition.

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models whether because they have..."

Ceann wrote:
Now please follow what I am saying.
It is telling you the circumstances, under which something WOULD have an advanced rule.
Not that the things listed ARE advanced rules.


Really? It certainly looks like a definition. Combine that with what it says at the core rules section about that section containing "all" the basic rules you need. Are the rules found only outside the core rules section? Are you matching up with their definitions? If yes, then you have an advanced rule.

Ceann wrote:
Because... "The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."


And what about advanced rules that apply to missions? Advanced rules that apply to wargear, or to models? We're not told about those, yet we know they exist (especially Mission Special Rules). This is obviously not an all-inclusive statement since we have shown there are other advanced rules out there, ones that can apply elsewhere.

Ceann wrote:
We are never anywhere given permission to make such determinations on our own.


Sorry, I disproved that in a previous post and you did not provide the proof to refute it. Not only to you have permission, you have a requirement to make such a determination if you are dealing with two conflicting rules. You are making a grevious error with this statement, and the mere repeating of it borders on col impact-type behavior.

Ceann wrote:
The ONLY example of an advanced rule is this...


That statement is just plain wrong, as per the first sentence in the second paragraph of Basic versus Advanced. Special kind of weapon, unusual skills, different to their fellows, because they are not normal infantry models are 4 categories they list, with at least one example for each type. Therefore, saying "the ONLY example" is a demonstrably false statement.

Ceann wrote:
We are told in the special rules section that models do not have special rules unless told otherwise.


Irrelevant, because we are talking advanced rules, not special rules. Special rules are merely a subset of advanced rules. Basing your entire argument on whether or not it has special rules fails when they tell you what advanced rules can be. You ignored the plethora of examples given in the previous thread due to an erroneous reading of what the basic rules and what the advanced rules are The basic rules are in the core rules section. A reference in the core rules section that there may be advanced rules later does not make those later rules basic rules; they are still advanced rules.





Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:17:23


Post by: Ceann


Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

SHOW ME where the gate is represented by a special rule?

You can't because it isn't. You are taking what you perceive to be the definition and running with it.

BvA states that any advanced rules that apply to a unit will be on it's datasheet. Terminator armor is on the datasheet for units that have terminator armor. The wargear entry for terminator armor STATES it has the bulky, deep strike and relentless special rules.

This is a perfect example of a wargear telling you what special rules it has.

Is the gate telling you that it has any special rules?
No.

Then it doesn't because it is not represented anywhere to have one.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:21:53


Post by: torblind


I don't have time to keep up with the speed of the thread so will try to phase myself out as neatly as possible.

 Charistoph wrote:
I'm thinking torblind was quoting from one of the sub-references found in Scout or Infiltrate, not Outflank itself.


Ah, good catch, I didn't notice the multiple occurences, not sure where I quoted from, but I believe they all result in the same conclusion for my argument? Ie having "Outflank" means the rules now give you only one well defined way to arrive.

 Charistoph wrote:
torblind wrote:Most people in the thread who argue say that when you say the "unit will arrive by DS", that unit now must arrive by DS. Changing the werb in that sentence already drastically changes the meaning.

A change caused by tense. One is defining an action of the future. The other is regarding the fulfillment of that expectation.


This is true, I was wrong, the verb as such is the same, but not, I would argue, the strict logical meaning of "will" and "must" when used in a rule. But I would not like to pursue this, it would be near pointless noise in this thread.

 Charistoph wrote:
torblind wrote:There is no rule in the BRB that says you have to do what yo say.

A false premise. That is the equivalent of saying, "but it doesn't say I can't". Please review the Forum Tenet Rules #1 and take particular note of the link on how to have an intelligent rules debate..

torblind wrote:I could say unit A will shoot at unit B, and then afterwards say "im rolling to run", and go on to roll a die to run unit A instead, no rule broken. Its not a nice way to behave, but its not illegal.

It depends on when you are announcing you are rolling to Run. If you are doing it during the To Wound portion of the Shooting Sequence, it is rather disingenuous and basically lying to your opponent. It is poor sportsmanship and will cause that you to lose any games.



I'm sure we can both agree that there are situations where I can easily get away with doing something else than what I at one point say without a rule that blocks me from doing that.


RAW says that by informing my opponent, my unit in Reserves is in Deep Strike Reserve. That is all RAW says.

Should the rule writers have wanted to force me to go through with the Deep Strike, they would have to add something like "these units shall now arrive by the rules of Deep Strike instead of walking on from Reserves as described in... " or something similar.


Regardless of that, I think the intention is quite clear, the rule intends to remove any confusion when the turn comes and I suddenly throw down a unit on the middle of the table (hey where did they come from), I also think they intended for that to be a forced outcome.


Ceann wrote:
Outflank and Deep Strike dictate EXACTLY how you MUST arrive when using them.
If you try to bring that unit in via some other fashion, then you are conflicting with how the two special rules dictate they arrive.
You cannot use them to claim you are deploying in a particular fashion and then stop using the rule later to change it.
When you declare them in your deployment phase the bullet has effectively left the barrel, the grenade has been thrown.
You have no option to stop it "mid air" and change your mind. You have begun using the rule and must use the rule until it has been completed in it's finality.
Only a duly noted special rule from a codex could change the circumstances of their arrival.

Arriving from your board edge is not that circumstance.


Outflank is a done deal as far as I see it, it demonstrates how arrival from Reserves unambiguously can be narrowed to only one way.

For the rest of the argument I'm not 100% sure how to argue the case either way. I'd probably end up re-iterating what most of col_impact has already said, I believe, it would be something along the following lines:

For Deep Strike it says:

* It must have the rule
* It must start the game in Reserves
* You must inform the opponent that they will arrive by Deep Strike

If my unit starts the game in Reserves, surely it must be considered to be in "Reserves" for all intents and purposes until something explicitly takes me out of reserves, nothing changes that fact.

Arriving by deep strike

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units [...] and then deploy as follows


At first I did think that "Deep Striking units" would be units in the process of deep striking, but it is not, it has to refer to units in Deep Strike Reserve, because otherwise you couldn't make a roll for them.

You can only make a roll for a unit that is currently in Deep Strike reserve (or vanilla Reserves), you can not make a roll for a unit that is Deep Striking (as in actively performing the action), so the term "all Deep Striking units", has to refer to "all units in Deep Strike Reserves".

Now to the tricky part, it does say, black on white:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units and then deploy them [...]


"Rolling for arrival" can only refer to the standard roll being made for Reserves, which takes place at a specific time in the turn.

If this description of how to roll for a unit in Deep Strike Reserve now prevents you from making a "normal" roll for moving on from the edge as arriving from "normal" Reserves, then a unit in Deep Strike Reserves is prevented from making this roll and thus move on from the edge. This would be the case now if this falls under the ruling about advanced rules taking precedence over not so advanced rules. Charistoph has reason to believe this is not the case: (I did not have his argument when I started on this reply)

 Charistoph wrote:
Incorrect. Reserves is a Mission Special Rule. It is not basic. Just because we are used to using it, does not define it as basic. That is your biggest problem with these definitions. You are taking something that is basic to us or to something else and defining it as basic without thinking about how the game sees it.


Otherwise, by this reasoning, this is a case of two conflicting rules that takes place at the same time:

1. Reserves says to roll to advance from my edge, that hasn't strictly and logically been taken away from the unit
2. Deep Strike says to roll in a similar way but then immediately do different things.

It doesn't say that "units in Deep Strike reserves" roll like this instead.

Because the Deep Strike rule didn't clear up its relation to Reserves, there are two conflicting rolls by my reasoning. As such controlling player decides. And moves on from the edge.

But again, I think there is little doubt of how the rule writers intended the game to be played.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:27:02


Post by: Ceann


Tom,

The issue here is that Infantry are used to explain the rules.
It explicitly states on the first page of the movement phase that they will start by explaining infantry.

"For the time being, we’ll just EXPLAIN how squads of Infantry move..."

Everything after that stems from this false idea, that Infantry being used to explain the procedures for the phases, makes them the default rules and nothing else.

If you consider this and then think about my view you will see how everything else I am saying makes a lot more sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Torblind,

The player cannot make that decision.
Just like if you have a unit that has relentless, you cannot choose to make it snapfire when shooting. You just don't have the choice.

Of if you have Move Through Cover and you want to try to kill your unit for some reason, you can't choose to make them take that roll for terrain.

Or if you have Zealot you cannot choose to go to ground.

The ability to make the choice has been eliminated. Because you have to do exactly what the special rule states, you are not given choices.

The roll for deepstrike states, deploy them AS FOLLOWS and then lists the procedure, to follow.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:33:19


Post by: col_impact


This thread is getting de-railed by a discussion about Eternity Gate which is expressly what the OP forbid.

 Happyjew wrote:
If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?

This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.


I suggest we get back to the actual discussion about whether or not a player who declares a unit to be Deep Striking can change how they come on.

Now many of you may have RAI arguments that the player cannot change how they come on, but RAW says otherwise.


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:36:26


Post by: Ceann


You cannot use part of a special rule Col.

"Deploy them as follows"
Just like you can't fire a plasma gun but forget about the "get's hot" part.

Basic reserve rules have no precedence.
Therefore you cannot contradict "deploy them as follows".


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:39:48


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
You cannot use part of a special rule Col.

"Deploy them as follows"
Just like you can't fire a plasma gun but forget about the "get's hot" part.

Basic reserve rules have no precedence.
Therefore you cannot contradict "deploy them as follows".


I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.

Outflank removes options. Deep Strike does not. A unit that announces that it will arrive via Deep Strike is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves. The first part of the sentence that ends with "deploy them as follows" is simply never invoked.

This permission is followed instead.

Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as
normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


Reserves is a special rule and cannot be overridden by Deep Strike. In order to prevent a unit from being able to move on the battlefield from Reserves the option to do so must be taken away as is it in the case of Outflank.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:41:41


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
Tom,

The issue here is that Infantry are used to explain the rules.
It explicitly states on the first page of the movement phase that they will start by explaining infantry.

"For the time being, we’ll just EXPLAIN how squads of Infantry move..."

Everything after that stems from this false idea, that Infantry being used to explain the procedures for the phases, makes them the default rules and nothing else.

If you consider this and then think about my view you will see how everything else I am saying makes a lot more sense.


"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, wehter because...or beacuse they are not normal infantry models (a bikde, a swarm or even a tank)"

So, they show advanced rules apply to models that are not normal infantry models. Infantry are the default because there are no advanced rules needed for them, all the rules needed for them are basic rules. Other types of unit have additional rules which do not apply to all types of models in the game, so override the basic rules. This makes them advanced rules, as per the quotation above.

I considered it and thought about your view, then rejected it because your view is still blinkered about what is basic compared to what is advanced.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:44:36


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

SHOW ME where the gate is represented by a special rule?

You can't because it isn't. You are taking what you perceive to be the definition and running with it.

Show me how the gate does not have a special rule.

What does the gate do that is normal?

Where does it state that a special rule must have a name?

Where does it state that it may only be found in the special rules section of a book?

Ceann wrote:BvA states that any advanced rules that apply to a unit will be on it's datasheet. Terminator armor is on the datasheet for units that have terminator armor. The wargear entry for terminator armor STATES it has the bulky, deep strike and relentless special rules.

This is a perfect example of a wargear telling you what special rules it has.

Is the gate telling you that it has any special rules?
No.

Then it doesn't because it is not represented anywhere to have one.

Yes, the gate is telling me it has special rules. It isn't by name, but by what it tells me to do, break the rules.

You have not answered my question, I see.

What type of rules do the Eternity Gate go by under your distinctions?

Ceann wrote:Tom,

The issue here is that Infantry are used to explain the rules.
It explicitly states on the first page of the movement phase that they will start by explaining infantry.

"For the time being, we’ll just EXPLAIN how squads of Infantry move..."

Everything after that stems from this false idea, that Infantry being used to explain the procedures for the phases, makes them the default rules and nothing else.

If you consider this and then think about my view you will see how everything else I am saying makes a lot more sense.

Actually the rulebook tying the Infantry rules to only being the basic rules, and everything else talking about basic rules and Infantry rules in too many sentences make it not a false idea. But hey, ignore away and project.

The game writers know that different rules will come along and change them. It goes over the basic rules, which are also the Infantry rules for the most part, first. Just because it is stating, "but wait, more rules will come along and change this", by no means those "more rules" are basic rules, especially when everything else which denotes "basic vs advanced" tells you "more rules' are not basic rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:52:34


Post by: torblind


Ceann wrote:

Torblind, The player cannot make that decision.
[...]
The roll for deepstrike states, deploy them AS FOLLOWS and then lists the procedure, to follow.


There was more to my argument.

Being in Reserves likewise instructs me to make a roll, a roll that conflicts with this roll.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:57:42


Post by: doctortom


col_impact wrote:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.



Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


No, the rules only indicate that units that "must arrive by Deep Strike" must be placed in Reserves and must arrive by Deep Strike. This does not mean that they are the only units that must arrive by deep strike.

col_impact wrote:
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.


Except that you have defined the unit as a deep striking unit when you declared it will arrive by Deep Strike at the time you placed it in Reserves. There are rules for how deep striking units arrive. You don't have permission to change their status from a deep striking unit to a non-deep striking unit. That change in status because of your declaraion is a restriction.


col_impact wrote:
For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Please note that the Outflank fule itself states "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserves, the controllling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2...(page 168). Now, that is different wording from what you have. It's supposed to be the same rule, however. For it to be the same rule, then obviously what is said in the outflanking part itself about "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves", it means that it is considered an Outflanking unit from the moment it is declared to be outflanking - "this unit" in your statement corresponding to "an Outflanking unit" in the Outflank rule. This would mean that when you read "roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units..." it means all units that have declared they are deep striking, just as outflanking units are units that declared they will be outflanking when placed into Reserves. GW making the slight difference in the different places on how they treated outflanking does certainly make it clear what their intention is, even if you don't want to axccept it as RAW.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 20:57:46


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:
You cannot use part of a special rule Col.

"Deploy them as follows"
Just like you can't fire a plasma gun but forget about the "get's hot" part.

Basic reserve rules have no precedence.
Therefore you cannot contradict "deploy them as follows".


I am free to follow whatever options the rules leave open.

Outflank removes options. Deep Strike does not. A unit that announces that it will arrive via Deep Strike is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves. The first part of the sentence that ends with "deploy them as follows" is simply never invoked.

This permission is followed instead.

Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as
normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.



You aren't free to do anything.

Your spoiler means nothing.

Deep Strike is a special rule.
If you wish to place a unit in deep strike reserve, then you are using the rule.
The rule ends when the unit resolves from a successful deep strike attempt.
If you attempt to do anything else, you are conflicting with the special rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:00:30


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Deep Strike is a special rule.
If you wish to place a unit in deep strike reserve, then you are using the rule.
The rule ends when the unit resolves from a successful deep strike attempt.
If you attempt to do anything else, you are conflicting with the special rule.


Reserves is a special rule as well so the two are forced to co-exist.

The unit is both in Reserves and in Deep Strike Reserves at the same time, leaving the option open to simply walk on the battlefield from Reserves when it comes time to Roll for Reserves. Outflank removes the option for a unit to be able to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. Deep Strike does not.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:09:48


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule.

SHOW ME where the gate is represented by a special rule?

You can't because it isn't. You are taking what you perceive to be the definition and running with it.

Show me how the gate does not have a special rule.

What does the gate do that is normal?

Where does it state that a special rule must have a name?

Where does it state that it may only be found in the special rules section of a book?

Ceann wrote:BvA states that any advanced rules that apply to a unit will be on it's datasheet. Terminator armor is on the datasheet for units that have terminator armor. The wargear entry for terminator armor STATES it has the bulky, deep strike and relentless special rules.

This is a perfect example of a wargear telling you what special rules it has.

Is the gate telling you that it has any special rules?
No.

Then it doesn't because it is not represented anywhere to have one.

Yes, the gate is telling me it has special rules. It isn't by name, but by what it tells me to do, break the rules.

You have not answered my question, I see.

What type of rules do the Eternity Gate go by under your distinctions?

Ceann wrote:Tom,

The issue here is that Infantry are used to explain the rules.
It explicitly states on the first page of the movement phase that they will start by explaining infantry.

"For the time being, we’ll just EXPLAIN how squads of Infantry move..."

Everything after that stems from this false idea, that Infantry being used to explain the procedures for the phases, makes them the default rules and nothing else.

If you consider this and then think about my view you will see how everything else I am saying makes a lot more sense.

Actually the rulebook tying the Infantry rules to only being the basic rules, and everything else talking about basic rules and Infantry rules in too many sentences make it not a false idea. But hey, ignore away and project.

The game writers know that different rules will come along and change them. It goes over the basic rules, which are also the Infantry rules for the most part, first. Just because it is stating, "but wait, more rules will come along and change this", by no means those "more rules" are basic rules, especially when everything else which denotes "basic vs advanced" tells you "more rules' are not basic rules.


The reason I address that comment to Tom is because you are already set in your ways.
In fact the rules being described as a procedure makes more sense than defining them around a particular unit type. Which it does not say anywhere that it does anyway.
All of your examples of that are pulled from AFTER the point that it states it will explain the rules using them. So of course you can point to those statements.
Your premise however is false, which makes all the rest of it false.

The eternity gate would use the basic rules for disembarking, because that is the action it states that it takes.
The disembarkation process can be found in the BRB and can be replicated for any transport that performs disembarking, the rule for the gate tells you everything you need to know.

If it isn't telling you by name, then it doesn't have any. If you claim it does then that is HYWPI or RAI per your view.
The special rules section explicitly states that a unit has no special rules unless told otherwise. The only special rules we are told it has are deep strike and living metal.

Again the core rules section tells you the PROCESS for phases. It always states" your units, your models" it never states "your infantry".
The rule book is telling you the basic rules for your UNITS, your MODELS, not for "Infantry".


It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."

Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.

Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:13:29


Post by: col_impact


 doctortom wrote:


col_impact wrote:
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.


Except that you have defined the unit as a deep striking unit when you declared it will arrive by Deep Strike at the time you placed it in Reserves. There are rules for how deep striking units arrive. You don't have permission to change their status from a deep striking unit to a non-deep striking unit. That change in status because of your declaraion is a restriction.


You are imagining things. The rules make no such change in status. The only thing that has happened is that the player has announced "this unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and he does that in order that the unit "is able to Deep Strike". The rules make no mention that the announcement locks the unit in to a state of Deep Striking. You are making that up. Stick exactly to what the rules say. The unit has merely been enabled to be able to Deep Strike and has been placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:15:09


Post by: doctortom


Ceann, it would be best to drop the eternity gate stuff. The rules being referenced are advanced rules Getting into this is just derailing things, so we should probably just stick with arguing each side without invoking the Eternity Gate.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:18:37


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
Ceann, it would be best to drop the eternity gate stuff. The rules being referenced are advanced rules Getting into this is just derailing things, so we should probably just stick with arguing each side without invoking the Eternity Gate.


As I said before.

This all boils down to Infantry being used to explain the rules.
If someone draws the conclusion of that being the standard, then the entire view of the rules and how they function from that point forward is skewed.
In majority of these cases very skewed.

You can't really have a good assessment of any ruling if the fundamentals are based on a false premise.

Col always assumes he can do the things that he isn't told he can't do.
However the rules are permissive and tell you what you can do, and you can only do that and nothing else.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:19:21


Post by: doctortom


col_impact wrote:
 doctortom wrote:


col_impact wrote:
A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.


Except that you have defined the unit as a deep striking unit when you declared it will arrive by Deep Strike at the time you placed it in Reserves. There are rules for how deep striking units arrive. You don't have permission to change their status from a deep striking unit to a non-deep striking unit. That change in status because of your declaraion is a restriction.


You are imagining things. The rules make no such change in status. The only thing that has happened is that the player has announced "this unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and he does that in order that the unit "is able to Deep Strike". The rules make no mention that the announcement locks the unit in to a state of Deep Striking. You are making that up. Stick exactly to what the rules say. The unit has merely been enabled to be able to Deep Strike and has been placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


I imagine nothing. I even gave you a page number to reference my quotation. Go ahead and give me a page number reference for your version of Outflank. The wording for the two conditions are different. Are you saying they don't do the same thing? It's the same rule, or supposed to be. How do YOU explain them being the same rule if the wording is different. As I said, this certainly lays out their intention perfectly even if you do not to read it as RAW. Given that interpretation, you should be applying the same interpretation to Deep Strike in order to be consistent.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:21:31


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."

Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.

Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.


Reserves is a special rule affecting all models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:22:47


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Ceann, it would be best to drop the eternity gate stuff. The rules being referenced are advanced rules Getting into this is just derailing things, so we should probably just stick with arguing each side without invoking the Eternity Gate.


As I said before.

This all boils down to Infantry being used to explain the rules.
If someone draws the conclusion of that being the standard, then the entire view of the rules and how they function from that point forward is skewed.
In majority of these cases very skewed.

You can't really have a good assessment of any ruling if the fundamentals are based on a false premise.


I maintain it is you who don't have the good assessment. I will also say that you show the same stubbornness as col impact - I ask for us to drop it, and you want to continue the argument. Wise up, if you're trying to get the thread locked up, at least stick with the main topic and let it be locked up in discourse with col impact (who I hope will engage on the points I posted on and not just stick with the copy and pasting his previous answers). That should not be too much to ask.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:23:23


Post by: col_impact


 doctortom wrote:


I imagine nothing. I even gave you a page number to reference my quotation. Go ahead and give me a page number reference for your version of Outflank. The wording for the two conditions are different. Are you saying they don't do the same thing? It's the same rule, or supposed to be. How do YOU explain them being the same rule if the wording is different. As I said, this certainly lays out their intention perfectly even if you do not to read it as RAW. Given that interpretation, you should be applying the same interpretation to Deep Strike in order to be consistent.


I am sticking with RAW and I am not going to make a guess as to intent. I am not a mind-reader. Neither are you.


You should rather ask yourself - what rules keeps the player from having the unit walk on the board from Reserves? The answer is there is no rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:33:26


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."

Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.

Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.


Reserves is a special rule affecting all models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


Such a liar.
Bold faced.

Mysterious Objectives, if you actually start reading the section states it is a special rule, first sentence.
Night Fighting states it is a special rule, first sentence.
Tactical Objectives? first sentence.

Reserves?
Can't seem to find it anywhere Col. In fact the only think it does mention is that some special rules can modify the roll to arrive from Reserve.
Which outflank and deep strike would.

Charlatan, word soup.

Can you at least actually read the entirety of the rules in question and provide page numbers or quotes instead of cherry picking what you like?
You are attempting to present something, yet again, as an argument that is blatantly false.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:36:27


Post by: doctortom


col_impact wrote:
 doctortom wrote:


I imagine nothing. I even gave you a page number to reference my quotation. Go ahead and give me a page number reference for your version of Outflank. The wording for the two conditions are different. Are you saying they don't do the same thing? It's the same rule, or supposed to be. How do YOU explain them being the same rule if the wording is different. As I said, this certainly lays out their intention perfectly even if you do not to read it as RAW. Given that interpretation, you should be applying the same interpretation to Deep Strike in order to be consistent.


I am sticking with RAW and I am not going to make a guess as to intent. I am not a mind-reader. Neither are you.


You should rather ask yourself - what rules keeps the player from having the unit walk on the board from Reserves? The answer is there is no rule.



Saying you have to be a mind reader is disingenuous. Go ahead and read the Special Rule for Outflank, the rule itself, not as referenced in the other rules. Then, go ahead and read the other version when you're going back to giving the page number reference I asked you for.

What rules keep you from walking on the board? The rule saying you declare that you are going to deep strike, which classifies you as a deep striking unit. Just as a unit that declares himself to be outflanking is an outflanking unit (as we see when consulting ALL the Rules As Written for Outflanking. ALL the Outflanking rules establish declaration as changing the status of the unit to the designation of a unit coming in from that method (in this case, outflanking), so therefore not applying the same standard to a unit declaring itself as coming in from deep striking as a deep striking unit shows a severe case of myopia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:


Such a liar.
Bold faced.

Mysterious Objectives, if you actually start reading the section states it is a special rule, first sentence.
Night Fighting states it is a special rule, first sentence.
Tactical Objectives? first sentence.

Reserves?
Can't seem to find it anywhere Col. In fact the only think it does mention is that some special rules can modify the roll to arrive from Reserve.
Which outflank and deep strike would.


Only because you ignored Charistoph and myself pointing out that Reserves are in the section MISSION SPECIAL RULES and points out that the section has special rules for missions. Go ahead, check out page 135. "The Warhammer 40,000 missions included in this book mostly make use of the more common mission special rules presented here; many other missions will use these alongside their own special rules."

Sorry, Ceann, the colonel is right about Reserves being special rules.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:43:47


Post by: col_impact


 doctortom wrote:

What rules keep you from walking on the board? The rule saying you declare that you are going to deep strike, which classifies you as a deep striking unit.


There is no such rule. When you announce to your opponent that "[this unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" the unit is enabled "to be able to Deep Strike" and is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


There is no classification of the unit in question as a Deep Striking unit. You are making that up. You are not allowed to make stuff up. Stick to what the rules say.

The unit is free to exercise the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. No rule has taken away that permission.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:47:44


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

What rules keep you from walking on the board? The rule saying you declare that you are going to deep strike, which classifies you as a deep striking unit.


There is no such rule. When you announce to your opponent that "[this unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" the unit is enabled "to be able to Deep Strike" and is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


There is no classification of the unit in question as a Deep Striking unit. You are making that up. You are not allowed to make stuff up. Stick to what the rules say.

The unit is free to exercise the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. No rule has taken away that permission.


DEPLOY AS FOLLOWS.

Its in the words of the deep strike special rule.
Now Col in english we have these things call paragraphs.

"a distinct section of a piece of writing, usually dealing with a single theme and indicated by a new line, indentation, or numbering."

Now you see big guy, we have multiples of these things called paragraphs, involving the rule Deep Strike.

And you are only reading the first one.
There is another section called "Arriving by Deep Strike"
And a third called "Deep Strike Mishap Table"

And once you finish reading "Deep Strike Mishap Table" then you have finally (Congratulations!!!!) finished reading the rule.

If you try to walk on the board, then you are not "deploying as follows".
If you are not "deploying as follows" you are conflicting with the rule.
When you are conflicting with a rule, the special rule has precedence.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:48:34


Post by: doctortom


col_impact wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

What rules keep you from walking on the board? The rule saying you declare that you are going to deep strike, which classifies you as a deep striking unit.


There is no such rule. When you announce to your opponent that "[this unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" the unit is enabled "to be able to Deep Strike" and is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves.

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


There is no classification of the unit in question as a Deep Striking unit. You are making that up. You are not allowed to make stuff up. Stick to what the rules say.

The unit is free to exercise the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. No rule has taken away that permission.


I see you haven't done what I said; it doesn't appear that you have even contemplated what I am saying. But,I do have to say that if there is no classification of a unit as a Deep Striking unit, then you can not use the Deep Strike rules as it only covers how to handle the arrival of Deep Striking Units. Go ahead and check that out, the classification is not made up. GW made up the classification and put it in their rules. Should we iignore it because GW made it up?

Again, please do what I asked you to do about providing a reference to your outflank quotation that you haven't yet. I will add to it by asking that you type the quotation for the Outflank special rule itself so that we can tell you actually bothered to go read it. After that we can discuss how the contrast between the two versions.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 21:55:55


Post by: col_impact


 doctortom wrote:


I see you haven't done what I said; it doesn't appear that you have even contemplated what I am saying. But,I do have to say that if there is no classification of a unit as a Deep Striking unit, then you can not use the Deep Strike rules as it only covers how to handle the arrival of Deep Striking Units. Go ahead and check that out, the classification is not made up. GW made up the classification and put it in their rules. Should we iignore it because GW made it up?

Again, please do what I asked you to do about providing a reference to your outflank quotation that you haven't yet. I will add to it by asking that you type the quotation for the Outflank special rule itself so that we can tell you actually bothered to go read it. After that we can discuss how the contrast between the two versions.


We are dealing with the Rules As Written. Let's stick to what the rules actually say. I am not going to take a trip down 'Speculation Road' with you and start guessing at what GW intended.

If you have something to prove with a rules quote then prove it.

Otherwise, there is no rule preventing a unit that has been place in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves from simply walking on the battlefield from Reserves.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 22:01:03


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:The reason I address that comment to Tom is because you are already set in your ways.

I can change if given supportable reason. You have given none.

Ceann wrote:In fact the rules being described as a procedure makes more sense than defining them around a particular unit type. Which it does not say anywhere that it does anyway.
All of your examples of that are pulled from AFTER the point that it states it will explain the rules using them. So of course you can point to those statements.
Your premise however is false, which makes all the rest of it false.

No, not all were after the point, one was before we even started reading about the turn.

Ceann wrote:The eternity gate would use the basic rules for disembarking, because that is the action it states that it takes.
The disembarkation process can be found in the BRB and can be replicated for any transport that performs disembarking, the rule for the gate tells you everything you need to know.

Disembarking is not a basic rule, though. I find it mentioned no where in the Movement Phase of the rules. It is exclusive to a specific unit type which the Monolith does not have.

In order for a unit to Disembark, the unit must first be Embarked on it, according to its Transport Capacity. The Eternity Gate does not Embark the unit, nor does the Monolith have a Transport Capacity to Embark a unit on.

Pulling a unit out of Reserves is not a basic rule, either, they are Mission Special Rules. The Eternity Gate even modifies this by bypassing the need to roll to Arrival. Furthermore, it changes it by not having the unit arrive the table edge, but by Disembarking from the Monolith.

Tell me where any of these changes are in the basic rules or even normal to anything but the Eternity Gate?

Ceann wrote:If it isn't telling you by name, then it doesn't have any.

Quote please.

Ceann wrote:Again the core rules section tells you the PROCESS for phases. It always states" your units, your models" it never states "your infantry".
The rule book is telling you the basic rules for your UNITS, your MODELS, not for "Infantry".

It is stated in numerous places that Infantry rules are basic rules. You blind yourself by focusing too much on tiny details without considering the entire picture of the rulebook. It's almost as bad as Col_Ignored, but at least you look at whole sentences.


Ceann wrote:It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."

Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.

Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.

Hmm...
(1) ETERNAL WAR: CRUSADE
...
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Night Fighting, Reserves, Mysterious Objectives.

Sure looks like Reserves are a special rule to me. Not provided by an army list entry, but by the mission. That being said, it does affect the models and how they operate within the game.

Your hard definition is showing soft edges, Caenn.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 22:22:21


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:The reason I address that comment to Tom is because you are already set in your ways.

I can change if given supportable reason. You have given none.

Ceann wrote:In fact the rules being described as a procedure makes more sense than defining them around a particular unit type. Which it does not say anywhere that it does anyway.
All of your examples of that are pulled from AFTER the point that it states it will explain the rules using them. So of course you can point to those statements.
Your premise however is false, which makes all the rest of it false.

No, not all were after the point, one was before we even started reading about the turn.

Ceann wrote:The eternity gate would use the basic rules for disembarking, because that is the action it states that it takes.
The disembarkation process can be found in the BRB and can be replicated for any transport that performs disembarking, the rule for the gate tells you everything you need to know.

Disembarking is not a basic rule, though. I find it mentioned no where in the Movement Phase of the rules. It is exclusive to a specific unit type which the Monolith does not have.

In order for a unit to Disembark, the unit must first be Embarked on it, according to its Transport Capacity. The Eternity Gate does not Embark the unit, nor does the Monolith have a Transport Capacity to Embark a unit on.

Pulling a unit out of Reserves is not a basic rule, either, they are Mission Special Rules. The Eternity Gate even modifies this by bypassing the need to roll to Arrival. Furthermore, it changes it by not having the unit arrive the table edge, but by Disembarking from the Monolith.

Tell me where any of these changes are in the basic rules or even normal to anything but the Eternity Gate?

Ceann wrote:If it isn't telling you by name, then it doesn't have any.

Quote please.

Ceann wrote:Again the core rules section tells you the PROCESS for phases. It always states" your units, your models" it never states "your infantry".
The rule book is telling you the basic rules for your UNITS, your MODELS, not for "Infantry".

It is stated in numerous places that Infantry rules are basic rules. You blind yourself by focusing too much on tiny details without considering the entire picture of the rulebook. It's almost as bad as Col_Ignored, but at least you look at whole sentences.


Ceann wrote:It is not a special rule Col, sorry buddy.
You are just grasping at straws now.

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game
rules, it is represented by a special rule."

Is there a special rule called Reserve in the special rules section?
Nope.

WHAT SPECIAL RULES DO I HAVE?
It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule.

Do any models have a special rule called "Reserve"?
Nope.

Hmm...
(1) ETERNAL WAR: CRUSADE
...
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Night Fighting, Reserves, Mysterious Objectives.

Sure looks like Reserves are a special rule to me. Not provided by an army list entry, but by the mission. That being said, it does affect the models and how they operate within the game.

Your hard definition is showing soft edges, Caenn.


I can also change if given supportable reason.
However all basic vs advanced tells us is that the basic rules are all you need to use Infantry. And because they don't have any special rules as a unit type, that statement is 100% accurate, if misleading.
However it does say the basic rules apply to ALL MODELS, not that the INFANTRY rules apply to all models.

I remain unconvinced that Infantry are the standard, it has not been clearly stated to my satisfaction.

If for the sake of argument, you take my stance, then disembarking is a basic rule for a transport, no issues from my perspective.
The friction is that you believe it contradicts an infantry standard, to me, each unit type has a standard. In this case the gate is using a basic rule for transports.

Yes, the gate does conflict with the BRB, however it is allowed too because it is a codex rule, by that virtue alone, it being an advanced rule is not a requirement to function.
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Please note that it states a rule, not an advanced rule, if all of the codex rules were advanced rules, this statement would then be redundant and not required.

You ask for a quote... Both are from the Special Rules section of the BRB.
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

I would argue that my definition is not showing edges.
As you clearly showed you have special rules, labeled as special rules.
I may have been mistaken about what Reserves is as a status, but that does not fault my premise.
It still is a rule for a mission, not a rule for a unit or model, it would be difficult to make it applicable in that regard.
Luckily it gives permission for other special rules to modify the reserves, which we have two that do, Outflank and Reserve.




Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 22:54:10


Post by: AndrewC


 Happyjew wrote:
If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?

This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.


I would say that I have reservations as to whether or not limitations are there. However the Deep Strike rule itself states that you roll for all DSing units and then deploy in a specific manner. As long as you specify that the unit is going to deploy normally before making the roll for arrival there should be no issue.

Cheers

Andrew


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 22:54:42


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
I can also change if given supportable reason.
However all basic vs advanced tells us is that the basic rules are all you need to use Infantry. And because they don't have any special rules as a unit type, that statement is 100% accurate, if misleading.
However it does say the basic rules apply to ALL MODELS, not that the INFANTRY rules apply to all models.

And the basic rules do apply to all models. At least until their advanced rules kick in. You know, that whole, "until we're told otherwise". And let's face it, some of them do a lot.

Ceann wrote:
I remain unconvinced that Infantry are the standard, it has not been clearly stated to my satisfaction.

That's your choice at this point.

Ceann wrote:
If for the sake of argument, you take my stance, then disembarking is a basic rule for a transport, no issues from my perspective.
The friction is that you believe it contradicts an infantry standard, to me, each unit type has a standard. In this case the gate is using a basic rule for transports.

But I don't accept your stance as it violates the very definitions provided by the rulebook. Why should I accept an interpretation which violates the standard which I go by?

The Gate may use the Disembarking rules, but it violates many of the Disembarking rules while doing so. Not the least of which is Unit Type. The Monolith is not a Transport, nor does it have Transport Capacity, and it allows a unit which is not Embarked to Disembark.

Are you even aware of the "basic" rules for Disembark?

Ceann wrote:
Yes, the gate does conflict with the BRB, however it is allowed too because it is a codex rule, by that virtue alone, it being an advanced rule is not a requirement to function.
"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."
Please note that it states a rule, not an advanced rule, if all of the codex rules were advanced rules, this statement would then be redundant and not required.

You are blinding yourself by lack of titles. There are advanced rules throughout the rulebook. None of the codex rules are basic, even if they call on basic ones here and there. They all fulfill the standards by which advanced rules are defined, and Basic vs Advanced doesn't separate them from advanced rules. We just call them "codex rules" to differentiate them from the rulebook's advanced rules that they take precedent over.

Ceann wrote:
You ask for a quote... Both are from the Special Rules section of the BRB.
"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

Nothing about this says anything about a "name". In fact, the term is not used anywhere in your quote.

Ceann wrote:
I would argue that my definition is not showing edges.
As you clearly showed you have special rules, labeled as special rules.
I may have been mistaken about what Reserves is as a status, but that does not fault my premise.
It still is a rule for a mission, not a rule for a unit or model, it would be difficult to make it applicable in that regard.
Luckily it gives permission for other special rules to modify the reserves, which we have two that do, Outflank and Reserve.

Actually it does fault your premises. It demonstrates that Special Rules can be found outside of the Special Rules section of the rulebook. It also demonstrates that such can be found in their own areas.

The Terminator and Bike example also shows that special rules can be included on the model without using the Special Rules field on the army list entry.

Now, who or what do the rules of Reserves involve, the unit or the battlefield?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 23:09:37


Post by: Ceann


Special rules have name's.
There is no special rule listed as eternity gate.
The mission special rules would be just that, for missions.
They cannot be an advanced rule because they are not found on army list entry.

Any advanced rule that applies to a model will be listed on its data sheet. Again terminator armor is not an example in your favor. Terminator armor is listed on data sheets and it states on the wargear what special rules it does have. You must remember that the special rules section on a data sheet is for rules the UNIT has. There are units where only certain models can purchase certain gear, which is why the gear lists the special rules related to them.

The fact that it states what special rules it has shows us that anything that doesn't state it has them, does not. If you want to try to find an obvious hole in my interpretation feel free.

The rules for reserve would have to be rules for the battlefield as they are applied to your army, not a unit. If you look at night fighting for example it is clearly different from reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/27 23:29:14


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
Special rules have name's.

Again, quote please. An assertion without a quote is rather baseless.

Ceann wrote:
The mission special rules would be just that, for missions.
They cannot be an advanced rule because they are not found on army list entry.

They are not basic rules, either. What are they then?

I think you are still blinding yourself to matters of location defining what classifies as what type of rule, despite other definitions being applied.

Ceann wrote:
Any advanced rule that applies to a model will be listed on its data sheet. Again terminator armor is not an example in your favor. Terminator armor is listed on data sheets and it states on the wargear what special rules it does have. You must remember that the special rules section on a data sheet is for rules the UNIT has. There are units where only certain models can purchase certain gear, which is why the gear lists the special rules related to them.

Actually, the Special Rules section states what special rules apply to the models on the list entry.

Terminator Armour is listed in the Wargear section of the army list entry, not the Special Rules section, and that is the point. Besides Relentless, they have the ability to prevent the unit from making a Sweeping Advance. That is not normal and definitely against the rules.

There are unit entries where only one of most of the models can purchase certain Wargear, such as Specialist and Heavy Weapons.

Ceann wrote:
The fact that it states what special rules it has shows us that anything that doesn't state it has them, does not. If you want to try to find an obvious hole in my interpretation feel free.

I am saying that you can find special rules for a model in other places then the stodgy, hard-line approach with location you are limiting yourself to. Same can be said for advanced rules. In many cases they are not found in the Special Rules section of any book, but in the Unit Type section of the BRB or in the Armoury. These are then referred to by the army list entries by indicating them by Unit Type or Wargear, as well as the Special Rules section of book and army list entry.

Ceann wrote:
The rules for reserve would have to be rules for the battlefield as they are applied to your army, not a unit. If you look at night fighting for example it is clearly different from reserves.

Then you may want to reread who is affected by the rules of Reserves. Here's hint: Reserves doesn't move Terrain.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 00:20:59


Post by: Ceann


If things that "break or bend" the rules are represented by a special rule, and special rules have names, then any special rule would have to have a name to be represented as one. If you have some different interpretation of what these direct quotes from the special rules section mean, then do share. I feel like you have to adequately account for these in order to proceed with your stance on player identified special rules.

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."


Wargear are not basic rules, why do missions have to be?

The special rules section of the data sheet states what special rules apply to the UNIT. The models have those rules by virtue of the unit.

If I make an Aquila Kill Team that has a biker in it, the unit may gain splitfire, but not relentless, because the model has relentless, not the unit. When the rules say models, they mean models, not units.

Terminator Armor is not from the BRB, it is from a codex. If it has a conflict with sweeping strikes, it supersedes that. The BvA only states if a RULE conflicts, not the type of rule.

Any of the special rules notated in the Unit Types section are notated in the special rules section. In the Unit Types section each type has a Special Rules: section. I don't see it as a hard-line approach. I look at my army list entry and anything listed on said entry is what I am permitted to use. If I want to use a lascannon, then the armory section of the codex will contain a reference telling me to consult the BRB.
Any special rule a unit has, will be listed on its Army List Entry sheet, or attached to another aspect of its data sheet and tell me that it is one. Such as wargear or unit type. If it doesn't tell me that it is one when referencing those items, then it isn't.

The index for BRB, if you search for advanced rules, takes you to page 13. That is it. Why clearly outline core rules section and the special rules and then just leave the rest "up to our wisdom" to determine which is which. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

In this circumstance the entire reason Deep Strike and Outflanking work properly are because they are special rules. If we didn't have a locked in precedence for certain rules and clear guidelines as to how we identify those rules we then enter into the world of players deciding what they think rules are on their own.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 01:25:40


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
If things that "break or bend" the rules are represented by a special rule, and special rules have names, then any special rule would have to have a name to be represented as one. If you have some different interpretation of what these direct quotes from the special rules section mean, then do share. I feel like you have to adequately account for these in order to proceed with your stance on player identified special rules.

I have already stated them and placed the burden of the "special rules have names" on you, as you have brought it up. At no point in anything you have so far quoted does it state that a Special Rule is required to have a name.

Ceann wrote:
Wargear are not basic rules, why do missions have to be?

Indeed, why would they have to be? To be more clear, they, and the rules that govern them, are not included in any definition of basic rules.

That doesn't answer the question, though. If their rules are not basic rules, what are they?

Ceann wrote:
The special rules section of the data sheet states what special rules apply to the UNIT. The models have those rules by virtue of the unit.

Not in argument or relevant. Demonstrate that this is the only place they may be found to support your premise.

Ceann wrote:
If I make an Aquila Kill Team that has a biker in it, the unit may gain splitfire, but not relentless, because the model has relentless, not the unit. When the rules say models, they mean models, not units.

Indeed. A case I have made many times. And the pertinence of this statement is because?

I should note, again, be careful on automatically assigning split fire to a unit just because it includes a biker. This is not a rule attendant to the Bike Unit Type.

Ceann wrote:
Terminator Armor is not from the BRB, it is from a codex. If it has a conflict with sweeping strikes, it supersedes that. The BvA only states if a RULE conflicts, not the type of rule.

Incorrect. BvA does state what type a rule is. It has to establish that in order to address how to resolve conflict because it is not established at any other point in such a manner.

And the Terminator Armour rule being discussed is neither an advanced rule or a special rule because...?

Ceann wrote:
Any of the special rules notated in the Unit Types section are notated in the special rules section. In the Unit Types section each type has a Special Rules: section. I don't see it as a hard-line approach. I look at my army list entry and anything listed on said entry is what I am permitted to use. If I want to use a lascannon, then the armory section of the codex will contain a reference telling me to consult the BRB.
Any special rule a unit has, will be listed on its Army List Entry sheet, or attached to another aspect of its data sheet and tell me that it is one. Such as wargear or unit type. If it doesn't tell me that it is one when referencing those items, then it isn't.

Your hard-line premise is that Special Rules can only be found in the Special Rules section, period. This is grossly in error as I have demonstrated that they can be found in many places.

Let's take Hard To Hit for Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures. Most would consider this a special rule. It certainly classifies as such in every area except being listed in the Special Rules section. Why is not being in the Special Rules section allow you to dismiss this as being a special rule or an advanced rule?

Remember, location is not an acceptable answer, neither is the lack of self-definition. At no point are either of these what defines a special rule or an advanced rule.

Ceann wrote:
The index for BRB, if you search for advanced rules, takes you to page 13. That is it. Why clearly outline core rules section and the special rules and then just leave the rest "up to our wisdom" to determine which is which. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

"Definition by Location" is not a thing unless we are told to refer to it as such. The definition is there, you just choose to ignore it. The purpose of a definition is so that you can apply it through the rest of the document. If you are not using that definition throughout the document, you are violating the rules.

Ceann wrote:
In this circumstance the entire reason Deep Strike and Outflanking work properly are because they are special rules. If we didn't have a locked in precedence for certain rules and clear guidelines as to how we identify those rules we then enter into the world of players deciding what they think rules are on their own.

Agreed, so why are you trying to change the identity of those guidelines when they are well and properly established? Is it because you cannot understand the sentence as a definition, or you simply do not want to?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 02:45:41


Post by: GodDamUser


How isn't this thread locked yet..

It has been the most pointless argument yet


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 02:48:42


Post by: Lorek


GodDamUser wrote:
How isn't this thread locked yet..

It has been the most pointless argument yet


You're not being forced to read it. Let them hash it out.

Although several (private) warnings have been handed out in this thread, it will stay open for now.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 02:51:30


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
If things that "break or bend" the rules are represented by a special rule, and special rules have names, then any special rule would have to have a name to be represented as one. If you have some different interpretation of what these direct quotes from the special rules section mean, then do share. I feel like you have to adequately account for these in order to proceed with your stance on player identified special rules.

I have already stated them and placed the burden of the "special rules have names" on you, as you have brought it up. At no point in anything you have so far quoted does it state that a Special Rule is required to have a name.

Ceann wrote:
Wargear are not basic rules, why do missions have to be?

Indeed, why would they have to be? To be more clear, they, and the rules that govern them, are not included in any definition of basic rules.

That doesn't answer the question, though. If their rules are not basic rules, what are they?

Ceann wrote:
The special rules section of the data sheet states what special rules apply to the UNIT. The models have those rules by virtue of the unit.

Not in argument or relevant. Demonstrate that this is the only place they may be found to support your premise.

Ceann wrote:
If I make an Aquila Kill Team that has a biker in it, the unit may gain splitfire, but not relentless, because the model has relentless, not the unit. When the rules say models, they mean models, not units.

Indeed. A case I have made many times. And the pertinence of this statement is because?

I should note, again, be careful on automatically assigning split fire to a unit just because it includes a biker. This is not a rule attendant to the Bike Unit Type.

Ceann wrote:
Terminator Armor is not from the BRB, it is from a codex. If it has a conflict with sweeping strikes, it supersedes that. The BvA only states if a RULE conflicts, not the type of rule.

Incorrect. BvA does state what type a rule is. It has to establish that in order to address how to resolve conflict because it is not established at any other point in such a manner.

And the Terminator Armour rule being discussed is neither an advanced rule or a special rule because...?

Ceann wrote:
Any of the special rules notated in the Unit Types section are notated in the special rules section. In the Unit Types section each type has a Special Rules: section. I don't see it as a hard-line approach. I look at my army list entry and anything listed on said entry is what I am permitted to use. If I want to use a lascannon, then the armory section of the codex will contain a reference telling me to consult the BRB.
Any special rule a unit has, will be listed on its Army List Entry sheet, or attached to another aspect of its data sheet and tell me that it is one. Such as wargear or unit type. If it doesn't tell me that it is one when referencing those items, then it isn't.

Your hard-line premise is that Special Rules can only be found in the Special Rules section, period. This is grossly in error as I have demonstrated that they can be found in many places.

Let's take Hard To Hit for Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures. Most would consider this a special rule. It certainly classifies as such in every area except being listed in the Special Rules section. Why is not being in the Special Rules section allow you to dismiss this as being a special rule or an advanced rule?

Remember, location is not an acceptable answer, neither is the lack of self-definition. At no point are either of these what defines a special rule or an advanced rule.

Ceann wrote:
The index for BRB, if you search for advanced rules, takes you to page 13. That is it. Why clearly outline core rules section and the special rules and then just leave the rest "up to our wisdom" to determine which is which. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

"Definition by Location" is not a thing unless we are told to refer to it as such. The definition is there, you just choose to ignore it. The purpose of a definition is so that you can apply it through the rest of the document. If you are not using that definition throughout the document, you are violating the rules.

Ceann wrote:
In this circumstance the entire reason Deep Strike and Outflanking work properly are because they are special rules. If we didn't have a locked in precedence for certain rules and clear guidelines as to how we identify those rules we then enter into the world of players deciding what they think rules are on their own.

Agreed, so why are you trying to change the identity of those guidelines when they are well and properly established? Is it because you cannot understand the sentence as a definition, or you simply do not want to?


I have posted many times, verbatim text, from both the data sheet and the BRB stating the locations of Special Rules. You merely disregard them in favor of using your own brush to determine what is and is not a special rule, without providing any justification for being allowed to do so. Unless you are using some house rules, you are not permitted to decide what type of a rule, a rule is. The BvA statement is about informing you of the existence of special rules, it is not permission to decide them on your own. If anything you need to demonstrate you have permission to do this.

As for missions, I don't see why they can't have basic and special rules just like units do, I see no qualms with this.

Demonstrate for like 50th time? I don't know how else to tell you.
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."


Terminator Armor isn't a special rule because it doesn't need to be one. It has the appropriate special rules it needs and the sweeping strike conflict is resolved by virtue of being a codex rule.
Lets look at some other examples, Nightmare Shroud has the Fear special rule, The Solar Staff has the Solar Pulse special rule, it is notated as such on the wargear. If these items were just advanced rules by default there would be no reason to draw the distinction, of when they have special rules and not have special rules, if they were all already special rules in the first place.

Hard to hit flyers and FMC...
Riddle me this. Why do all unit types have a special rules section then? If all of their rules were special rules, then clearly all of their rules would be listed under Special Rules then for the unit type, wouldn't they?
Are we told about the extra special, special rules? I don't think that is the case. Why do I not consider them special rules? Because I haven't been told otherwise.
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

I am aware that bikes do not inherently have splitfire in general, however DW Bikers do, which is why I used them for the example.

How is definition by location not a thing? Your entire argument about Infantry rules being the standard is predicated upon the explanation of Infantry in the core rules section.
If you see my view as wrong, then clearly yours is also entirely wrong and that is putting aside my qualms with the assertion in the first place.

The only guideline we have is that you and others are asserting what are and are not special or advanced rules on your own. I follow each trail located on the Army List Entry and identify each circumstance of "Special Rule" and only attribute those, rather than a freelance opinion of what I think they are.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
GodDamUser wrote:
How isn't this thread locked yet..

It has been the most pointless argument yet


I feel like Charistoph and I are having a productive conversation.
I am sorry you disagree.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 05:55:03


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
I have posted many times, verbatim text, from both the data sheet and the BRB stating the locations of Special Rules. You merely disregard them in favor of using your own brush to determine what is and is not a special rule, without providing any justification for being allowed to do so. Unless you are using some house rules, you are not permitted to decide what type of a rule, a rule is. The BvA statement is about informing you of the existence of special rules, it is not permission to decide them on your own. If anything you need to demonstrate you have permission to do this.

I have never stated that the individual player decides on it. That has been a leap that you have invented. I have stated that we follow the definitions provided. A very very clear difference. I have presented that definition numerous times.

I have no problems with finding special rules located in a section marked "Special Rules". My problem is your insistence that special rules may only be found where marked as such, when such a direction or distinction does not ever exist. In everything you have quoted on location of special rules, not once has it been as an exclusive statement as you would have me believe.

In addition, at no point has the identity of special rules been limited by requiring a name.

Ceann wrote:
As for missions, I don't see why they can't have basic and special rules just like units do, I see no qualms with this.

Again, basic to the game or not? Basic to themselves is not in consideration with this conversation. We are considering them as if they are basic to the game, as that is the definition under debate.

Ceann wrote:
Demonstrate for like 50th time? I don't know how else to tell you.
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

And having it by virtue of Wargear or Unit Type doesn't count? Even if those special rules are defined only within the same and not in the Special Rules section of a book?

Ceann wrote:
Terminator Armor isn't a special rule because it doesn't need to be one. It has the appropriate special rules it needs and the sweeping strike conflict is resolved by virtue of being a codex rule.
Lets look at some other examples, Nightmare Shroud has the Fear special rule, The Solar Staff has the Solar Pulse special rule, it is notated as such on the wargear. If these items were just advanced rules by default there would be no reason to draw the distinction, of when they have special rules and not have special rules, if they were all already special rules in the first place.

Fear is a noted USR, but what about the other affect it has in the Shooting phase? Is this a normal operation in the game? If it is not normal, then how it is not a special rule? The same applies to the Terminator's Armour affect on Sweeping Advance (there is no Sweeping Strike).

Weapons are a little more weird in how they are set up. It used to be that equipped special rules were kept off the Weapon's Type. Sometime in 6th or early 7th Edition, they switched it so they were all on the Weapon's Type. Since it is on the Type, it needs a name. Why is a name so necessary for you to consider something as a special rule when the game does not?

Ceann wrote:
Hard to hit flyers and FMC...
Riddle me this. Why do all unit types have a special rules section then? If all of their rules were special rules, then clearly all of their rules would be listed under Special Rules then for the unit type, wouldn't they?
Are we told about the extra special, special rules? I don't think that is the case. Why do I not consider them special rules? Because I haven't been told otherwise.
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

But you have been told they have these rules, and they fit the definition of special rules, so that quote seems rather non sequitur in nature.

Is the self-identity in this matter so important for you to classify them as such? Why can you not go by the definitions provided in the rulebook instead? Do you really need them nailed down like a computer does?

Ceann wrote:
I am aware that bikes do not inherently have splitfire in general, however DW Bikers do, which is why I used them for the example.

So, they don't have it as part of their Type, which led to the confusion regarding it. Previously, you were not specifying the type of Biker.

Ceann wrote:
How is definition by location not a thing? Your entire argument about Infantry rules being the standard is predicated upon the explanation of Infantry in the core rules section.
If you see my view as wrong, then clearly yours is also entirely wrong and that is putting aside my qualms with the assertion in the first place.

It is not a thing because we have not been told to identify special rules by their location. We have not been told to identify advanced rules by their location except that they are not where the basic rules are. The basic rules are identified by location and we are specifically directed so.

My argument about Infantry rules being the standard is based on explanations in General Principles, Movement Phase, and Unit Type. Unit Type is not part of the Core Rules section.

As an interesting side note, in 5th Edition Infantry rules we are specifically told that all the basic rules are presented on the basis that the models referred to them are Infantry. It has no bearing now, but one can see the imprints and assumptions of it in the current rulebook if one is aware of the possibility of the concept.

Ceann wrote:
The only guideline we have is that you and others are asserting what are and are not special or advanced rules on your own. I follow each trail located on the Army List Entry and identify each circumstance of "Special Rule" and only attribute those, rather than a freelance opinion of what I think they are.

In other words, you do not accept what we present as guidelines and definitions as any of the kind. Which returns back to the question of, is it because you cannot understand them as a definition, or that you simply do not want to?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 14:31:57


Post by: doctortom


col_impact wrote:
 doctortom wrote:


I see you haven't done what I said; it doesn't appear that you have even contemplated what I am saying. But,I do have to say that if there is no classification of a unit as a Deep Striking unit, then you can not use the Deep Strike rules as it only covers how to handle the arrival of Deep Striking Units. Go ahead and check that out, the classification is not made up. GW made up the classification and put it in their rules. Should we iignore it because GW made it up?

Again, please do what I asked you to do about providing a reference to your outflank quotation that you haven't yet. I will add to it by asking that you type the quotation for the Outflank special rule itself so that we can tell you actually bothered to go read it. After that we can discuss how the contrast between the two versions.


We are dealing with the Rules As Written. Let's stick to what the rules actually say. I am not going to take a trip down 'Speculation Road' with you and start guessing at what GW intended.

If you have something to prove with a rules quote then prove it.

Otherwise, there is no rule preventing a unit that has been place in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves from simply walking on the battlefield from Reserves.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Okay, if that's how you want to be, then I'll have to engage you on the subject by first challenging your outflanking quote.

From Outflank (the Special Rule), page 168 "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserves, the controlling player rolls a D6..." This is not matching up with your quotation for Outflank. It does not say " When this unit arrives from Reserves". Provide your quotation with a page reference, then discuss any differences you see between the statements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:
Unless you are using some house rules, you are not permitted to decide what type of a rule, a rule is.


Then how do you determine if a rule is a basic or an advanced rule if you have two rules in conflict. In order to apply the Basic versus Advanced rules, you must be able to determine if a rule is basic or advanced. Your argument fails.


Ceann wrote:
Riddle me this. Why do all unit types have a special rules section then? If all of their rules were special rules, then clearly all of their rules would be listed under Special Rules then for the unit type, wouldn't they?


The Special Rules seciton defines which USRs in the book from the Special Rules section. It does not define all their rules. In fact, it's a moot point whether you treat the other rules for the units as special rules or not. They are all advanced rules. Not all advanced rules have to be special rules, even if all special rules have to be advanced rules. They are rules that override basic rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 15:21:23


Post by: Ceann


Ceann wrote:
Unless you are using some house rules, you are not permitted to decide what type of a rule, a rule is.


Then how do you determine if a rule is a basic or an advanced rule if you have two rules in conflict. In order to apply the Basic versus Advanced rules, you must be able to determine if a rule is basic or advanced. Your argument fails.


Ceann wrote:
Riddle me this. Why do all unit types have a special rules section then? If all of their rules were special rules, then clearly all of their rules would be listed under Special Rules then for the unit type, wouldn't they?


The Special Rules section defines which USRs in the book from the Special Rules section. It does not define all their rules. In fact, it's a moot point whether you treat the other rules for the units as special rules or not. They are all advanced rules. Not all advanced rules have to be special rules, even if all special rules have to be advanced rules. They are rules that override basic rules.



---------------------------------------------------------------------


In regards to Outflanking, I could find no relevant FAQ's to the discussion.

The physical BRB pg 168 states
"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..."
Digital copy...
"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..."

Exactly the same on both, physical and digitial, verbatim.

Regardless of this segmented approach of a handful of words, outflanking is an entire rule from the point of being declare at deployment, to the point they arrive, we cannot look at partial statements. We have to look at them contextually as a whole. The primary flaw in the arguments, as a rule of thumb, is not looking at an entire set of rules and state "what is this rule telling us to do". Instead looks for "what the rule is telling us we can't do" and assuming anything undeclared is an action we can take because we were not told we couldn't. The rules are ultimately permissive, if you are not told you can do something, then you cannot.


I determine if a rule is a basic rule or an advanced rule based on whether it is a special rule or not. If it is labled as a special rule, then it is advanced, if it is not labeled as one, it is basic.
So far, from a procedural standpoint I have not run into any issues with my interpretations in action that "breaks the game" or anything along those lines.
Notice that besides this one section of the BRB "Basic vs Advanced" to my knowledge, no codex ever mentions "advanced" no rule ever mentions "advanced" and the example provided in basic vs advanced demonstrates a special rule being used as and advanced rule.

The special rules section of a unit type does not define all special rules, for example Chariots, have in their special rules a notation that the rider of a chariot fires in overwatch and that the chariot's weapons cannot.
This is not a USR, it is a special rule attributed to chariots. If it was an advanced rule as you say, then there would be no need for them to add the statement to it's special rules section.

At the end of the day, I don't think we have been handed a paint brush and the ability to determine a rules classification.

We are told when advanced rules are applied.
We are told where advanced rules are indicated for units.
We are told that if there is a conflict between a codex and the BRB, that the codex takes precedence.

We don't really need to know, or guess anything else, for the rules function.
A paint brush is not required.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 15:49:09


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Unless you are using some house rules, you are not permitted to decide what type of a rule, a rule is.


Then how do you determine if a rule is a basic or an advanced rule if you have two rules in conflict. In order to apply the Basic versus Advanced rules, you must be able to determine if a rule is basic or advanced. Your argument fails.


Ceann wrote:
Riddle me this. Why do all unit types have a special rules section then? If all of their rules were special rules, then clearly all of their rules would be listed under Special Rules then for the unit type, wouldn't they?


The Special Rules section defines which USRs in the book from the Special Rules section. It does not define all their rules. In fact, it's a moot point whether you treat the other rules for the units as special rules or not. They are all advanced rules. Not all advanced rules have to be special rules, even if all special rules have to be advanced rules. They are rules that override basic rules.


---------------------------------------------------------------------


In regards to Outflanking, I could find no relevant FAQ's to the discussion.

The physical BRB pg 168 states
"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..."
Digital copy...
"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..."

Exactly the same on both, physical and digitial, verbatim.

Regardless of this segmented approach of a handful of words, outflanking is an entire rule from the point of being declare at deployment, to the point they arrive, we cannot look at partial statements. We have to look at them contextually as a whole. The primary flaw in the arguments, as a rule of thumb, is not looking at an entire set of rules and state "what is this rule telling us to do". Instead looks for "what the rule is telling us we can't do" and assuming anything undeclared is an action we can take because we were not told we couldn't. The rules are ultimately permissive, if you are not told you can do something, then you cannot..


That had been directed at col impact, not you. I think it's more a case of engaging him on what it says for Outflank in the outflanking rule as compared to what it says for outflanking as subsections of Scout or Infiltrate. Do the digital versions in those sections match up with what it says in the Outflank special rule, or with the print version of what col impact quoted?



Ceann wrote:
I determine if a rule is a basic rule or an advanced rule based on whether it is a special rule or not. If it is labled as a special rule, then it is advanced, if it is not labeled as one, it is basic.


This is where your analysis falls apart. The second paragraph in the Basic versus Advanced section tells you about advanced rules and gives some different categories for classifying advanced rules. At no point in this does it say "Special Rules". That means you do not get to make the assumption that only Special Rules are advanced rules. You have to go by their classification for advanced rules, which is larger than merely "Special Rules"



Ceann wrote:
So far, from a procedural standpoint I have not run into any issues with my interpretations in action that "breaks the game" or anything along those lines.
Notice that besides this one section of the BRB "Basic vs Advanced" to my knowledge, no codex ever mentions "advanced" no rule ever mentions "advanced" and the example provided in basic vs advanced demonstrates a special rule being used as and advanced rule.


Most likely because they defined the Core Rules section as containing "all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles", and given their Basic versus Advanced rules figured that people playing the game would be able to understand that if it's not a rule in the section that contains all of the basic rules, that it's an advanced rule.

Ceann wrote:
The special rules section of a unit type does not define all special rules, for example Chariots, have in their special rules a notation that the rider of a chariot fires in overwatch and that the chariot's weapons cannot.
This is not a USR, it is a special rule attributed to chariots. If it was an advanced rule as you say, then there would be no need for them to add the statement to it's special rules section.


Irrelevant, as all the rules dealing with vehicles are advanced rules, as per the classification of advanced rules on page 13 and on none of the vehicle rules being in the Core Rules section. This is where I disagree somewhat with Charistoph - there are references to location based rules; it's that all the basic rules are in the core rules section of the book (their location), and rules outside that section that are not merely saying "see page xx" for a rule in the core rules section are advanced rules.


Ceann wrote:
At the end of the day, I don't think we have been handed a paint brush and the ability to determine a rules classification.


Not a paintbrush, but a classification guide, and instructions on where all the basic rules are contained. If you can not determine if a rule is basic or advanced based on those classifications, you aren't following the rules. Saying that Special Rules are the only advanced rules are not following the rules on page 13. GW gave us the tools for the job; if you can't make the determination properly it is not due to lack of instruction on their part.




Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 16:07:21


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
I determine if a rule is a basic rule or an advanced rule based on whether it is a special rule or not. If it is labled as a special rule, then it is advanced, if it is not labeled as one, it is basic.

And where do you find this standard that is in conflict with Basic vs Advanced?

Ceann wrote:
So far, from a procedural standpoint I have not run into any issues with my interpretations in action that "breaks the game" or anything along those lines.
Notice that besides this one section of the BRB "Basic vs Advanced" to my knowledge, no codex ever mentions "advanced" no rule ever mentions "advanced" and the example provided in basic vs advanced demonstrates a special rule being used as and advanced rule.

Why does it need to when it is defined already in one spot? Why does it need to be repeated? The standard for Special Rules is not repeated in the codex, either, so why define advanced rules in such a manner?

Ceann wrote:
The special rules section of a unit type does not define all special rules, for example Chariots, have in their special rules a notation that the rider of a chariot fires in overwatch and that the chariot's weapons cannot.
This is not a USR, it is a special rule attributed to chariots. If it was an advanced rule as you say, then there would be no need for them to add the statement to it's special rules section.

But it is not listed in the Special Rule section of the book, which has been your defined standard in all of this. And, interestingly enough, similar rules are not listed under other unit type's special rules, but as part of their rules involved with either Assault or Shooting. To be honest, I was surprised to find that under Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:
At the end of the day, I don't think we have been handed a paint brush and the ability to determine a rules classification.

And neither do we, yet you accuse us of doing so with statements like this.

Ceann wrote:
We are told when advanced rules are applied.

Yet, you continue to ignore this in recognizing what is the difference between basic and advanced rules. It is you who are using a paintbrush to try and blend your basic paint over the advanced rules in this instance.

It specifically tells you that advanced rules apply when it is a unit type other than Infantry, but you paint Bikes and Chariots as basic rules, instead of the same color we are told to paint unusual skills.

It specifically tells you that advanced rules apply when they have unusual skills, but apparently you think that Wargear cannot have unusual skills, so you paint them with the brush of "not advanced", which is counter to this.

At no point does this classification of advanced rules state that codex rules are not advanced rules. It notes the difference for which takes precedence, but any title is our construct, not the rulebook's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:
Irrelevant, as all the rules dealing with vehicles are advanced rules, as per the classification of advanced rules on page 13 and on none of the vehicle rules being in the Core Rules section. This is where I disagree somewhat with Charistoph - there are references to location based rules; it's that all the basic rules are in the core rules section of the book (their location), and rules outside that section that are not merely saying "see page xx" for a rule in the core rules section are advanced rules.

Why do people always miss terms like "if" and "unless"?

Yes, we are told where we will find Basic Rules, and we are given no other definition to stand by. That is part of what I meant by, "unless we are told otherwise".

The "definition by location" was in referring to the defining of Special Rules. Caenn was stating that Special Rules can only be found in the Special Rules section, which goes against the definition provided by the introduction of the Special Rules section. This becomes even more apparent when we do find rules which fit that category under many different areas of the rules other than what is listed under Special Rules sections.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 16:17:33


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
I have posted many times, verbatim text, from both the data sheet and the BRB stating the locations of Special Rules. You merely disregard them in favor of using your own brush to determine what is and is not a special rule, without providing any justification for being allowed to do so. Unless you are using some house rules, you are not permitted to decide what type of a rule, a rule is. The BvA statement is about informing you of the existence of special rules, it is not permission to decide them on your own. If anything you need to demonstrate you have permission to do this.

I have never stated that the individual player decides on it. That has been a leap that you have invented. I have stated that we follow the definitions provided. A very very clear difference. I have presented that definition numerous times.

I have no problems with finding special rules located in a section marked "Special Rules". My problem is your insistence that special rules may only be found where marked as such, when such a direction or distinction does not ever exist. In everything you have quoted on location of special rules, not once has it been as an exclusive statement as you would have me believe.

In addition, at no point has the identity of special rules been limited by requiring a name.

Ceann wrote:
As for missions, I don't see why they can't have basic and special rules just like units do, I see no qualms with this.

Again, basic to the game or not? Basic to themselves is not in consideration with this conversation. We are considering them as if they are basic to the game, as that is the definition under debate.

Ceann wrote:
Demonstrate for like 50th time? I don't know how else to tell you.
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

And having it by virtue of Wargear or Unit Type doesn't count? Even if those special rules are defined only within the same and not in the Special Rules section of a book?

Ceann wrote:
Terminator Armor isn't a special rule because it doesn't need to be one. It has the appropriate special rules it needs and the sweeping strike conflict is resolved by virtue of being a codex rule.
Lets look at some other examples, Nightmare Shroud has the Fear special rule, The Solar Staff has the Solar Pulse special rule, it is notated as such on the wargear. If these items were just advanced rules by default there would be no reason to draw the distinction, of when they have special rules and not have special rules, if they were all already special rules in the first place.

Fear is a noted USR, but what about the other affect it has in the Shooting phase? Is this a normal operation in the game? If it is not normal, then how it is not a special rule? The same applies to the Terminator's Armour affect on Sweeping Advance (there is no Sweeping Strike).

Weapons are a little more weird in how they are set up. It used to be that equipped special rules were kept off the Weapon's Type. Sometime in 6th or early 7th Edition, they switched it so they were all on the Weapon's Type. Since it is on the Type, it needs a name. Why is a name so necessary for you to consider something as a special rule when the game does not?

Ceann wrote:
Hard to hit flyers and FMC...
Riddle me this. Why do all unit types have a special rules section then? If all of their rules were special rules, then clearly all of their rules would be listed under Special Rules then for the unit type, wouldn't they?
Are we told about the extra special, special rules? I don't think that is the case. Why do I not consider them special rules? Because I haven't been told otherwise.
"It may seem obvious, but unless stated otherwise, a model does not have a special rule."

But you have been told they have these rules, and they fit the definition of special rules, so that quote seems rather non sequitur in nature.

Is the self-identity in this matter so important for you to classify them as such? Why can you not go by the definitions provided in the rulebook instead? Do you really need them nailed down like a computer does?

Ceann wrote:
I am aware that bikes do not inherently have splitfire in general, however DW Bikers do, which is why I used them for the example.

So, they don't have it as part of their Type, which led to the confusion regarding it. Previously, you were not specifying the type of Biker.

Ceann wrote:
How is definition by location not a thing? Your entire argument about Infantry rules being the standard is predicated upon the explanation of Infantry in the core rules section.
If you see my view as wrong, then clearly yours is also entirely wrong and that is putting aside my qualms with the assertion in the first place.

It is not a thing because we have not been told to identify special rules by their location. We have not been told to identify advanced rules by their location except that they are not where the basic rules are. The basic rules are identified by location and we are specifically directed so.

My argument about Infantry rules being the standard is based on explanations in General Principles, Movement Phase, and Unit Type. Unit Type is not part of the Core Rules section.

As an interesting side note, in 5th Edition Infantry rules we are specifically told that all the basic rules are presented on the basis that the models referred to them are Infantry. It has no bearing now, but one can see the imprints and assumptions of it in the current rulebook if one is aware of the possibility of the concept.

Ceann wrote:
The only guideline we have is that you and others are asserting what are and are not special or advanced rules on your own. I follow each trail located on the Army List Entry and identify each circumstance of "Special Rule" and only attribute those, rather than a freelance opinion of what I think they are.

In other words, you do not accept what we present as guidelines and definitions as any of the kind. Which returns back to the question of, is it because you cannot understand them as a definition, or that you simply do not want to?


What is wrong with my insistence of only looking at labeled Special Rules and only considering those as such? I recall previously you were stating "if i read the rules like a computer" in your arguments and your statements now contradict that.

Wargear and Unit Type, both state what special rules they have. Terminator armor states it has the "Bulky, Deepstrike and Relentless" special rules. So if it states it has a special rule then it does, if it does not state that then it does not. As per the special rules section where it has "unless stated otherwise". In the case of sweeping advance, there are vehicles that have in their basic rules they cannot perform sweeping advances. The wargear is referencing a basic rule outside of their unit type, just like the monolith references rules for transports to disembark, they are still using basic rules nonetheless.

Is self identity so important? It is very important. I only perform exactly what I am told to do and perform. The rulebook does not provide a definition you just think that it does and I feel like that is where the misunderstanding lies. Lets break this down to my point...

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because"... reasons

You are being given reasons as why advanced rules would apply to specific types of models, you are not being told what the advanced rules are, you are being told CIRCUMSTANCES that something would have them. You are considering the circumstances, the definition, they are not.

Then we have...
"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."

Why would it tell us to look at the Army List Entry, if the advanced rules that apply to a unit are located in another section of the book?
The rules tell us where to find the rules for other unit types, it tells us where to find the rules for vehicles, it even includes page numbers in the physical BRB.
But to "advanced rules" there is not a reference insight other than to check the Army List Entry.

We are told in those sections the following things...
1. In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Notice the infantry unit type is not treated any differently than anything else.
2. Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.
3.For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Many of these references, and I can provide more, all include page numbers on those quotes in the physical brb, referencing the Unit Types section.
How many page references does BvA have to the unit types section? Zero.
But you consider it to be the more valid statement?

The splash page on the physical BRB for the Appendix states....
This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use...
Note that NOWHERE in this book, besides page 13, are advanced rules mentioned, other than the splash page of the the Appendix.
What are the three sections of the Appendix? Special Rules, Weaponry, and Psyker Powers.

Advanced rules = Special Rules at this point is not a stretch, especially after in the only example provided in BvA, stated a special rule was the advanced rule.
Are the rules for unit types located in the Appendix? No.
Are the special rules notated in the special rules section of each unit type, located in the Appendix? Yes.
The only logical conclusion is that all special rules are located in the appendix and unit types are not located in the appendix.
They can therefore only be basic rules for the unit of their type, short of the specifically mentioned special rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 16:24:30


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
What is wrong with my insistence of only looking at labeled Special Rules and only considering those as such?


Because it means that you are classifying some advanced rules as basic rules. It's as simple as that.

Ceann wrote:
Advanced rules = Special Rules at this point is not a stretch, especially after in the only example provided in BvA, stated a special rule was the advanced rule.


It really is. Advanced rules =/= basic rules. That is what is not a stretch. If it's not a basic rule, it's an advanced rule. What are the basic rules? The rules in the Core Rules section. Any other rules that are not merely referencing rules from the core rules section are advanced rules. Advanced rules=rules not in the Core Rules section.

Ceann wrote:
The only logical conclusion is that all special rules are located in the appendix and unit types are not located in the appendix.


Not even remotely logical. It shows a basic failure of reading comprehension to come to that conclusion, to be honest.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 16:44:16


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Unless you are using some house rules, you are not permitted to decide what type of a rule, a rule is.


Then how do you determine if a rule is a basic or an advanced rule if you have two rules in conflict. In order to apply the Basic versus Advanced rules, you must be able to determine if a rule is basic or advanced. Your argument fails.


Ceann wrote:
Riddle me this. Why do all unit types have a special rules section then? If all of their rules were special rules, then clearly all of their rules would be listed under Special Rules then for the unit type, wouldn't they?


The Special Rules section defines which USRs in the book from the Special Rules section. It does not define all their rules. In fact, it's a moot point whether you treat the other rules for the units as special rules or not. They are all advanced rules. Not all advanced rules have to be special rules, even if all special rules have to be advanced rules. They are rules that override basic rules.


---------------------------------------------------------------------


In regards to Outflanking, I could find no relevant FAQ's to the discussion.

The physical BRB pg 168 states
"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..."
Digital copy...
"When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..."

Exactly the same on both, physical and digitial, verbatim.

Regardless of this segmented approach of a handful of words, outflanking is an entire rule from the point of being declare at deployment, to the point they arrive, we cannot look at partial statements. We have to look at them contextually as a whole. The primary flaw in the arguments, as a rule of thumb, is not looking at an entire set of rules and state "what is this rule telling us to do". Instead looks for "what the rule is telling us we can't do" and assuming anything undeclared is an action we can take because we were not told we couldn't. The rules are ultimately permissive, if you are not told you can do something, then you cannot..


That had been directed at col impact, not you. I think it's more a case of engaging him on what it says for Outflank in the outflanking rule as compared to what it says for outflanking as subsections of Scout or Infiltrate. Do the digital versions in those sections match up with what it says in the Outflank special rule, or with the print version of what col impact quoted?



Ceann wrote:
I determine if a rule is a basic rule or an advanced rule based on whether it is a special rule or not. If it is labled as a special rule, then it is advanced, if it is not labeled as one, it is basic.


This is where your analysis falls apart. The second paragraph in the Basic versus Advanced section tells you about advanced rules and gives some different categories for classifying advanced rules. At no point in this does it say "Special Rules". That means you do not get to make the assumption that only Special Rules are advanced rules. You have to go by their classification for advanced rules, which is larger than merely "Special Rules"



Ceann wrote:
So far, from a procedural standpoint I have not run into any issues with my interpretations in action that "breaks the game" or anything along those lines.
Notice that besides this one section of the BRB "Basic vs Advanced" to my knowledge, no codex ever mentions "advanced" no rule ever mentions "advanced" and the example provided in basic vs advanced demonstrates a special rule being used as and advanced rule.


Most likely because they defined the Core Rules section as containing "all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles", and given their Basic versus Advanced rules figured that people playing the game would be able to understand that if it's not a rule in the section that contains all of the basic rules, that it's an advanced rule.

Ceann wrote:
The special rules section of a unit type does not define all special rules, for example Chariots, have in their special rules a notation that the rider of a chariot fires in overwatch and that the chariot's weapons cannot.
This is not a USR, it is a special rule attributed to chariots. If it was an advanced rule as you say, then there would be no need for them to add the statement to it's special rules section.


Irrelevant, as all the rules dealing with vehicles are advanced rules, as per the classification of advanced rules on page 13 and on none of the vehicle rules being in the Core Rules section. This is where I disagree somewhat with Charistoph - there are references to location based rules; it's that all the basic rules are in the core rules section of the book (their location), and rules outside that section that are not merely saying "see page xx" for a rule in the core rules section are advanced rules.


Ceann wrote:
At the end of the day, I don't think we have been handed a paint brush and the ability to determine a rules classification.


Not a paintbrush, but a classification guide, and instructions on where all the basic rules are contained. If you can not determine if a rule is basic or advanced based on those classifications, you aren't following the rules. Saying that Special Rules are the only advanced rules are not following the rules on page 13. GW gave us the tools for the job; if you can't make the determination properly it is not due to lack of instruction on their part.




I know it was directed at Col, I was providing you the information to support your case. I have both the digital and physical copies of the rules.
They say the exact same thing. So any terms he is claiming exist there, do not appear to exist there as I have read it.
The phrasing between the two was exactly the same and I found no FAQ that contradicted that.

The second paragraph of BvA does not tell you that those ARE advanced rules, they tell you circumstances in which advanced rules would apply. I think that is the fault in phrasing of the statement.
I think we can both agree that "boltgun" is not an advanced rule. But clearly a combi-melta, would be. The only direction we are given to find advanced rules is to consult an Army List Entry, not to consult the Unit Type section. Also note that there are NO page references to the unit type section anywhere in BvA, the only reference it gives you is Army List Entry's. Whereas in the core rules, there are many references, with page numbers provided to the different unit types. Also the only thing in BvA that is stated as a verbatim EXAMPLE of an advanced rule is one use to prevent morale roll and it states that a special rule is the advanced rule.
I would assert my point has more evidence to support it.


The issue is that at the beginning of the movement phase rules, it tells us that they will EXPLAIN the rules using Infantry, so everything that follows is using them to explain the rules.
This leads, in my mind, to a misunderstanding that Infantry are the rules, even though we were told they would be used as an explanation.
The core rules explains the processes of moving, shooting, assaulting and morale. Infantry are used to explain the rules for ease of use, because they have no innate special rules. It would be much more confusing to a player if they tried to explain the rules using FMC's. Using the simplest and most common unit is the easiest way. If you flip to the start of the Unit Types section, Infantry is the first thing there, right there alongside its more complicated brethren.

All the rules dealing with vehicles are not advanced rules those. Vehicles possess their own basic rules just like Infantry possess their own basic rules. Infantry just have no special rules, which is noted by them not having a special rules section. All unit types can follow the same processes for movement, shooting, assaulting and morale just like the others. The rules are just explained from the perspective of Infantry being plugged into the process. You could take "move 6" and "Special Rules: This unit has no special rules" slam Infantry into the unit types section and then explain the rules using bikes, while pointing out the special rules. The process would be exactly the same, just more complicated to understand. The core rules is about the PHASES and what units do in the phases, not about Infantry. The physic phase is located in the core rules, but I don't see any of you trying to claim that IG Conscripts are ML1 because its a basic rule.

We are not given a classification guide anywhere, you guys are assuming this. Just like using the "breaks or bends a rule" but leaving off the end part of the sentence stating "represented by a special rule".


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 17:06:39


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
I determine if a rule is a basic rule or an advanced rule based on whether it is a special rule or not. If it is labled as a special rule, then it is advanced, if it is not labeled as one, it is basic.

And where do you find this standard that is in conflict with Basic vs Advanced?

Ceann wrote:
So far, from a procedural standpoint I have not run into any issues with my interpretations in action that "breaks the game" or anything along those lines.
Notice that besides this one section of the BRB "Basic vs Advanced" to my knowledge, no codex ever mentions "advanced" no rule ever mentions "advanced" and the example provided in basic vs advanced demonstrates a special rule being used as and advanced rule.

Why does it need to when it is defined already in one spot? Why does it need to be repeated? The standard for Special Rules is not repeated in the codex, either, so why define advanced rules in such a manner?

Ceann wrote:
The special rules section of a unit type does not define all special rules, for example Chariots, have in their special rules a notation that the rider of a chariot fires in overwatch and that the chariot's weapons cannot.
This is not a USR, it is a special rule attributed to chariots. If it was an advanced rule as you say, then there would be no need for them to add the statement to it's special rules section.

But it is not listed in the Special Rule section of the book, which has been your defined standard in all of this. And, interestingly enough, similar rules are not listed under other unit type's special rules, but as part of their rules involved with either Assault or Shooting. To be honest, I was surprised to find that under Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:
At the end of the day, I don't think we have been handed a paint brush and the ability to determine a rules classification.

And neither do we, yet you accuse us of doing so with statements like this.

Ceann wrote:
We are told when advanced rules are applied.

Yet, you continue to ignore this in recognizing what is the difference between basic and advanced rules. It is you who are using a paintbrush to try and blend your basic paint over the advanced rules in this instance.

It specifically tells you that advanced rules apply when it is a unit type other than Infantry, but you paint Bikes and Chariots as basic rules, instead of the same color we are told to paint unusual skills.

It specifically tells you that advanced rules apply when they have unusual skills, but apparently you think that Wargear cannot have unusual skills, so you paint them with the brush of "not advanced", which is counter to this.

At no point does this classification of advanced rules state that codex rules are not advanced rules. It notes the difference for which takes precedence, but any title is our construct, not the rulebook's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:
Irrelevant, as all the rules dealing with vehicles are advanced rules, as per the classification of advanced rules on page 13 and on none of the vehicle rules being in the Core Rules section. This is where I disagree somewhat with Charistoph - there are references to location based rules; it's that all the basic rules are in the core rules section of the book (their location), and rules outside that section that are not merely saying "see page xx" for a rule in the core rules section are advanced rules.

Why do people always miss terms like "if" and "unless"?

Yes, we are told where we will find Basic Rules, and we are given no other definition to stand by. That is part of what I meant by, "unless we are told otherwise".

The "definition by location" was in referring to the defining of Special Rules. Caenn was stating that Special Rules can only be found in the Special Rules section, which goes against the definition provided by the introduction of the Special Rules section. This becomes even more apparent when we do find rules which fit that category under many different areas of the rules other than what is listed under Special Rules sections.


Let's try to simplify this.

The question at hand is what determines what precedence a rule has.
We know that Deep Strike and Outflank are special rules.
The question of how they can deploy leads us to determining why they have precedence.
Why they have precedence leads us to BvA.

BvA leads us to how we classify rules.
So I would like to break down BvA and see if we can assess what it is actually saying, please note where we agree or disagree.


1. Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

When it states all models, this to me, applies to all unit types and those rules are listed above. I see this as the rules that govern those phases.
"These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models." This statement exists because infantry have no innate special rules.

2. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because...

Now remember, we have to read this from the perspective of someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page. We don't know what the unit types are yet, we don't know what a "bolt gun" is or any of the other terms it states. All we are able to gather from this statement is "advanced rules apply, because" it doesn't tell us what those rules ARE. It just tells us why something would have them.

3. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

This provide a location, of where to find out, what advanced rules are on a unit.

4. Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

I don't think we have any issues with this statement. The issue we have is with classification.

5. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.

Now this is the only EXAMPLE, provided in the statement of BvA. Note it has the word example. It also notes that a special rule, is the advanced rule, which takes precedence. We have no other example telling us that an advanced rule is anything but a special rule.

6. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
I don't think we have any issues with this statement that won't be automatically resolved by resolving the other statements.

By my reckoning if we follow this as laid out. The rules for Reserves are not located in the codex of a unit that is using Deep Strike or Outflanking. Deepstrike and Outflanking would be located in the codex for that unit. They would then have precedence over the rules for Reserves, which are only mentioned in the BRB.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 18:03:59


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:What is wrong with my insistence of only looking at labeled Special Rules and only considering those as such? I recall previously you were stating "if i read the rules like a computer" in your arguments and your statements now contradict that.

Because by doing so you are ignoring the definition provided for it.

Ceann wrote:Wargear and Unit Type, both state what special rules they have. Terminator armor states it has the "Bulky, Deepstrike and Relentless" special rules. So if it states it has a special rule then it does, if it does not state that then it does not. As per the special rules section where it has "unless stated otherwise". In the case of sweeping advance, there are vehicles that have in their basic rules they cannot perform sweeping advances. The wargear is referencing a basic rule outside of their unit type, just like the monolith references rules for transports to disembark, they are still using basic rules nonetheless.

Those are not basic rules, though. You cannot find them in the realm of what is defined as basic rules. They are never stated that they are basic to the unit. This concept is a construct of the user, not the rulebook.

Ceann wrote:Is self identity so important? It is very important. I only perform exactly what I am told to do and perform. The rulebook does not provide a definition you just think that it does and I feel like that is where the misunderstanding lies. Lets break this down to my point...

Okay, so your answer, is, "you cannot understand them as definitions". Was that really that hard?

Ceann wrote:"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because"... reasons

You are being given reasons as why advanced rules would apply to specific types of models, you are not being told what the advanced rules are, you are being told CIRCUMSTANCES that something would have them. You are considering the circumstances, the definition, they are not.

There are many ways to provide a definition. One of the purposes of a definition is to provide a thing which is the act of defining. One of the purposes of defining is to state or set for the meaning of, and another is to determin or fix the boundaries or extent of something. Sometimes it is in a literal (i.e. written) sense, sometimes it is in defining the areas they cover. "The prison yard was defined by the high walls covered in razor wire," is a perfectly valid sentence.

This definition of advanced rules is providing use the extent or boundaries under which advanced rules are defined. Yes, that includes circumstances. The same thing applies to special rules.

Ceann wrote:Then we have...
"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."

Why would it tell us to look at the Army List Entry, if the advanced rules that apply to a unit are located in another section of the book?
The rules tell us where to find the rules for other unit types, it tells us where to find the rules for vehicles, it even includes page numbers in the physical BRB.
But to "advanced rules" there is not a reference insight other than to check the Army List Entry.

Are not Unit Entries and Wargear not indicated on an army list entry? How does requiring it to be on an Army List Entry exclude these from being advanced rules?

Ceann wrote:We are told in those sections the following things...
1. In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Notice the infantry unit type is not treated any differently than anything else.
2. Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.
3.For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Again, having a unit type does not make it an advanced rule. Having a unit type other than Infantry is covered by advanced rules. Being a Vehicle is a Unit Type. Unit Types are not covered in The Core Rules. Therefore, anything about being a bike, a vehicle, or a beast would be advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:Many of these references, and I can provide more, all include page numbers on those quotes in the physical brb, referencing the Unit Types section.
How many page references does BvA have to the unit types section? Zero.
But you consider it to be the more valid statement?

This assertion falls flat on its face as it is in error. What is a Bike or a Tank but a Unit Type? What is a Character but a Unit Type? Both of these are referenced as why advanced rules are being used. They are part of the definition.

Ceann wrote:The splash page on the physical BRB for the Appendix states....
This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use...
Note that NOWHERE in this book, besides page 13, are advanced rules mentioned, other than the splash page of the the Appendix.
What are the three sections of the Appendix? Special Rules, Weaponry, and Psyker Powers.

Everything from Bikes and Jetbikes on in the rulebook is considered advanced rules based on what we are told on page 13. Why does it have to repeat itself at every turn? You have yet to explain a reason for this.

Ceann wrote:Advanced rules = Special Rules at this point is not a stretch, especially after in the only example provided in BvA, stated a special rule was the advanced rule.
Are the rules for unit types located in the Appendix? No.
Are the special rules notated in the special rules section of each unit type, located in the Appendix? Yes.
The only logical conclusion is that all special rules are located in the appendix and unit types are not located in the appendix.
They can therefore only be basic rules for the unit of their type, short of the specifically mentioned special rules.

Are special rules, advanced rules? You bet. They either fall under the "unusual skills" concept. Sometimes those "unusual skills" are also provided by "a special kind of weapon", but that's belaboring, I think.

Are speclal rules the only advanced rules? No. As this would counter every reason why advanced rules would apply in its boundary-defining statement.

Ceann wrote:1. Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

When it states all models, this to me, applies to all unit types and those rules are listed above. I see this as the rules that govern those phases.
"These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models." This statement exists because infantry have no innate special rules.

So long as you don't forget the "unless stated otherwise" phrase.

Ceann wrote:2. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because...

Now remember, we have to read this from the perspective of someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page. We don't know what the unit types are yet, we don't know what a "bolt gun" is or any of the other terms it states. All we are able to gather from this statement is "advanced rules apply, because" it doesn't tell us what those rules ARE. It just tells us why something would have them.

Why do we have to read this from the perspective of someone reading the book for the first time, and not going back to look it up? This logic makes no sense.

When something states, "because", it is giving the reasons for it. It is defining the limits and boundaries that it entails. Your biggest problem is that you stop with the comma and ignore everything else because you do not think it is pertinent. We are telling you that it is pertinent.

Ceann wrote:3. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

This provide a location, of where to find out, what advanced rules are on a unit.

Irrelevant, as I pointed out above. There are many things which are indicated on the army list entry which you are not classifying as advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:5. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.

Now this is the only EXAMPLE, provided in the statement of BvA. Note it has the word example. It also notes that a special rule, is the advanced rule, which takes precedence. We have no other example telling us that an advanced rule is anything but a special rule.

Maybe you need to review the use of "such as" in an english sentence and then come back and tell me that it is the only example. If "such as" is not providing an example, what is its purpose in the earlier sentence?

Ceann wrote:6. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
I don't think we have any issues with this statement that won't be automatically resolved by resolving the other statements.

By my reckoning if we follow this as laid out. The rules for Reserves are not located in the codex of a unit that is using Deep Strike or Outflanking. Deepstrike and Outflanking would be located in the codex for that unit. They would then have precedence over the rules for Reserves, which are only mentioned in the BRB.

So a unit cannot use Reserves unless it is Deep Striking or Outflanking? That is what I take from this summation.

In addition, while Deep Strike and Outflank may be indicated on an army list entry in a codex, they do not come from the codex. They are still rules defined in the BRB. "Indicate" does not mean what you seem to think it means.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 18:11:49


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:


The issue is that at the beginning of the movement phase rules, it tells us that they will EXPLAIN the rules using Infantry, so everything that follows is using them to explain the rules..


Everything in the core rules section. Not everything dealing with movement.

Ceann wrote:
This leads, in my mind, to a misunderstanding that Infantry are the rules, even though we were told they would be used as an explanation.


This is ignoring that you get advanced rules "because they are not normal infantry models". In conjunction with having been told that all the basic rules are in the core rules section and that you have advanced rules with models that aren't infantry models, the rules for units that are not infantry units that are not merely referring you to a page number would be advanced rules. They're advanced rules whether or not they are in the special rule section. Any rule for a unit type that changes the distance the unit moves is an advanced rule because it overrides the basic rule "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase." (1st sentence in Movement Distance section, page 18). This is not a case of infantry being a standard here, as infantry are not mentioned in that rule at all. This is a case of some units being told they move 12", or any of the flying rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures, or for any of the vehicle movement rules. These override that basic rule of models moving only 6" yet are not listed as a special rule. They can not override the basic statement of models moving only 6" if they are a basic rule, yet we know they do override it. Therefore, these are advanced rules (which matches up with what we are told on page 13 - other types of units having advanced rules). This means, therefore, that Special Rules are not the only form of advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
The core rules explains the processes of moving, shooting, assaulting and morale. Infantry are used to explain the rules for ease of use, because they have no innate special rules. It would be much more confusing to a player if they tried to explain the rules using FMC's. Using the simplest and most common unit is the easiest way. If you flip to the start of the Unit Types section, Infantry is the first thing there, right there alongside its more complicated brethren.

All the rules dealing with vehicles are not advanced rules those. Vehicles possess their own basic rules just like Infantry possess their own basic rules. Infantry just have no special rules, which is noted by them not having a special rules section. All unit types can follow the same processes for movement, shooting, assaulting and morale just like the others. The rules are just explained from the perspective of Infantry being plugged into the process. You could take "move 6" and "Special Rules: This unit has no special rules" slam Infantry into the unit types section and then explain the rules using bikes, while pointing out the special rules. The process would be exactly the same, just more complicated to understand. The core rules is about the PHASES and what units do in the phases, not about Infantry. The physic phase is located in the core rules, but I don't see any of you trying to claim that IG Conscripts are ML1 because its a basic rule.


Yes, vehicle rules are advanced rules when the rules are not covered in the core rulebook section. Are vehicles "all the models in the game"? That's what basic rules apply to. Are vehicle rules in the Core Rules section? Most assuredly not. Are we told that the Core Rules section contains all the basic rules we need? Yes we are. This indicates and corroborates that vehicle rules are in fact advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
We are not given a classification guide anywhere, you guys are assuming this. Just like using the "breaks or bends a rule" but leaving off the end part of the sentence stating "represented by a special rule".


I am sorry, but you are suffering a misconception if you think we are not given a classification system anywhere.

Classification system one. 1) Advanced rules are for different types of models - classifications that they list include a) "they have a special kind of weapon", b) "unusual skills" c) "they are different from their fellows9such as a unit leader or a heroic character), d) "because they are not normal infantry models" . We are given a second classification method - at the beginning of the core rulebook section we are specifically told"This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,0000 battles." It's the only sentence on that page (the only other writing on the page is "Core Rules"), so citing this is not cherry picking at all. This seems to be a pretty important piece of information. So, we can also classify rules into basic or advanced by whether or not they appear in the core rules section. Now, I have to bring up again a question you consistently dodged in the previous thread - where do you say the Core Rules section ends? We can not treat the statement on page 7 as a false statement. The classification system on page 13 does not contradict this, in fact it works with this.. No, you are wrong in asserting we are not given a classification guide anywhere when I am able to quote 2 systems from the rulebook.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:

2. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because...

Now remember, we have to read this from the perspective of someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page. We don't know what the unit types are yet, we don't know what a "bolt gun" is or any of the other terms it states. All we are able to gather from this statement is "advanced rules apply, because" it doesn't tell us what those rules ARE. It just tells us why something would have them.


Remember that this someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page has already read the page that states all the basic rules you need are in the Core Rules section. He might not know what a "boltgun" is or any of the other terms, but he would be able to tell from the table of contents and also when he reaches the end of the core rules section that he has passed out of where basic rules are, and has started in a section that has advanced rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 18:56:19


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:What is wrong with my insistence of only looking at labeled Special Rules and only considering those as such? I recall previously you were stating "if i read the rules like a computer" in your arguments and your statements now contradict that.

Because by doing so you are ignoring the definition provided for it.

Ceann wrote:Wargear and Unit Type, both state what special rules they have. Terminator armor states it has the "Bulky, Deepstrike and Relentless" special rules. So if it states it has a special rule then it does, if it does not state that then it does not. As per the special rules section where it has "unless stated otherwise". In the case of sweeping advance, there are vehicles that have in their basic rules they cannot perform sweeping advances. The wargear is referencing a basic rule outside of their unit type, just like the monolith references rules for transports to disembark, they are still using basic rules nonetheless.

Those are not basic rules, though. You cannot find them in the realm of what is defined as basic rules. They are never stated that they are basic to the unit. This concept is a construct of the user, not the rulebook.

Ceann wrote:Is self identity so important? It is very important. I only perform exactly what I am told to do and perform. The rulebook does not provide a definition you just think that it does and I feel like that is where the misunderstanding lies. Lets break this down to my point...

Okay, so your answer, is, "you cannot understand them as definitions". Was that really that hard?

Ceann wrote:"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because"... reasons

You are being given reasons as why advanced rules would apply to specific types of models, you are not being told what the advanced rules are, you are being told CIRCUMSTANCES that something would have them. You are considering the circumstances, the definition, they are not.

There are many ways to provide a definition. One of the purposes of a definition is to provide a thing which is the act of defining. One of the purposes of defining is to state or set for the meaning of, and another is to determin or fix the boundaries or extent of something. Sometimes it is in a literal (i.e. written) sense, sometimes it is in defining the areas they cover. "The prison yard was defined by the high walls covered in razor wire," is a perfectly valid sentence.

This definition of advanced rules is providing use the extent or boundaries under which advanced rules are defined. Yes, that includes circumstances. The same thing applies to special rules.

Ceann wrote:Then we have...
"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry."

Why would it tell us to look at the Army List Entry, if the advanced rules that apply to a unit are located in another section of the book?
The rules tell us where to find the rules for other unit types, it tells us where to find the rules for vehicles, it even includes page numbers in the physical BRB.
But to "advanced rules" there is not a reference insight other than to check the Army List Entry.

Are not Unit Entries and Wargear not indicated on an army list entry? How does requiring it to be on an Army List Entry exclude these from being advanced rules?

Ceann wrote:We are told in those sections the following things...
1. In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
Notice the infantry unit type is not treated any differently than anything else.
2. Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.
3.For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

Again, having a unit type does not make it an advanced rule. Having a unit type other than Infantry is covered by advanced rules. Being a Vehicle is a Unit Type. Unit Types are not covered in The Core Rules. Therefore, anything about being a bike, a vehicle, or a beast would be advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:Many of these references, and I can provide more, all include page numbers on those quotes in the physical brb, referencing the Unit Types section.
How many page references does BvA have to the unit types section? Zero.
But you consider it to be the more valid statement?

This assertion falls flat on its face as it is in error. What is a Bike or a Tank but a Unit Type? What is a Character but a Unit Type? Both of these are referenced as why advanced rules are being used. They are part of the definition.

Ceann wrote:The splash page on the physical BRB for the Appendix states....
This section contains a collection of advanced rules, weaponry and abilities that you can use...
Note that NOWHERE in this book, besides page 13, are advanced rules mentioned, other than the splash page of the the Appendix.
What are the three sections of the Appendix? Special Rules, Weaponry, and Psyker Powers.

Everything from Bikes and Jetbikes on in the rulebook is considered advanced rules based on what we are told on page 13. Why does it have to repeat itself at every turn? You have yet to explain a reason for this.

Ceann wrote:Advanced rules = Special Rules at this point is not a stretch, especially after in the only example provided in BvA, stated a special rule was the advanced rule.
Are the rules for unit types located in the Appendix? No.
Are the special rules notated in the special rules section of each unit type, located in the Appendix? Yes.
The only logical conclusion is that all special rules are located in the appendix and unit types are not located in the appendix.
They can therefore only be basic rules for the unit of their type, short of the specifically mentioned special rules.

Are special rules, advanced rules? You bet. They either fall under the "unusual skills" concept. Sometimes those "unusual skills" are also provided by "a special kind of weapon", but that's belaboring, I think.

Are speclal rules the only advanced rules? No. As this would counter every reason why advanced rules would apply in its boundary-defining statement.

Ceann wrote:1. Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

When it states all models, this to me, applies to all unit types and those rules are listed above. I see this as the rules that govern those phases.
"These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models." This statement exists because infantry have no innate special rules.

So long as you don't forget the "unless stated otherwise" phrase.

Ceann wrote:2. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because...

Now remember, we have to read this from the perspective of someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page. We don't know what the unit types are yet, we don't know what a "bolt gun" is or any of the other terms it states. All we are able to gather from this statement is "advanced rules apply, because" it doesn't tell us what those rules ARE. It just tells us why something would have them.

Why do we have to read this from the perspective of someone reading the book for the first time, and not going back to look it up? This logic makes no sense.

When something states, "because", it is giving the reasons for it. It is defining the limits and boundaries that it entails. Your biggest problem is that you stop with the comma and ignore everything else because you do not think it is pertinent. We are telling you that it is pertinent.

Ceann wrote:3. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

This provide a location, of where to find out, what advanced rules are on a unit.

Irrelevant, as I pointed out above. There are many things which are indicated on the army list entry which you are not classifying as advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:5. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that
model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence.

Now this is the only EXAMPLE, provided in the statement of BvA. Note it has the word example. It also notes that a special rule, is the advanced rule, which takes precedence. We have no other example telling us that an advanced rule is anything but a special rule.

Maybe you need to review the use of "such as" in an english sentence and then come back and tell me that it is the only example. If "such as" is not providing an example, what is its purpose in the earlier sentence?

Ceann wrote:6. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
I don't think we have any issues with this statement that won't be automatically resolved by resolving the other statements.

By my reckoning if we follow this as laid out. The rules for Reserves are not located in the codex of a unit that is using Deep Strike or Outflanking. Deepstrike and Outflanking would be located in the codex for that unit. They would then have precedence over the rules for Reserves, which are only mentioned in the BRB.

So a unit cannot use Reserves unless it is Deep Striking or Outflanking? That is what I take from this summation.

In addition, while Deep Strike and Outflank may be indicated on an army list entry in a codex, they do not come from the codex. They are still rules defined in the BRB.


As I said, lets simplify this.
If you want to talk about definitions, flip the the page labeled The Turn and look at the Turn Summary.
Those are a summary of the basic rules, Infantry are not mentioned at all. You have an exaggerated dedicated to a particular sentence of BvA, all based on an assumption that Infantry are the standard. All other issues to being discussed are contingent upon this assertion being true.

The basic rules are the PHASES and the sequences for the phases. Infantry are a unit type, they are not basic rules. Your entire arguments are Infantry are the standard is the premise for all of the BvA arguments.
No one can point to a line that contradicts that the rules will be explained using Infantry.
The movement phase states "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
If a Calvary unit is moving 12", then it is not breaking any rule, so it cannot be an advanced rule. That is the bold statement per the BRB in the introduction.
"As you read through the rules, you will notice some of the text is bold, like this This highlights the most important elements of the rule in question and helps bring it to your eyes when skimming a page."

Meaning that moving your maximum distance is the MOST IMPORTANT element of the rule in question.

So you want to ignore what the movement phase states as the most important part of the rule. In favor of extrapolating some Infantry standard from BvA.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 19:07:48


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:


The issue is that at the beginning of the movement phase rules, it tells us that they will EXPLAIN the rules using Infantry, so everything that follows is using them to explain the rules..


Everything in the core rules section. Not everything dealing with movement.

Ceann wrote:
This leads, in my mind, to a misunderstanding that Infantry are the rules, even though we were told they would be used as an explanation.


This is ignoring that you get advanced rules "because they are not normal infantry models". In conjunction with having been told that all the basic rules are in the core rules section and that you have advanced rules with models that aren't infantry models, the rules for units that are not infantry units that are not merely referring you to a page number would be advanced rules. They're advanced rules whether or not they are in the special rule section. Any rule for a unit type that changes the distance the unit moves is an advanced rule because it overrides the basic rule "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase." (1st sentence in Movement Distance section, page 18). This is not a case of infantry being a standard here, as infantry are not mentioned in that rule at all. This is a case of some units being told they move 12", or any of the flying rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures, or for any of the vehicle movement rules. These override that basic rule of models moving only 6" yet are not listed as a special rule. They can not override the basic statement of models moving only 6" if they are a basic rule, yet we know they do override it. Therefore, these are advanced rules (which matches up with what we are told on page 13 - other types of units having advanced rules). This means, therefore, that Special Rules are not the only form of advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
The core rules explains the processes of moving, shooting, assaulting and morale. Infantry are used to explain the rules for ease of use, because they have no innate special rules. It would be much more confusing to a player if they tried to explain the rules using FMC's. Using the simplest and most common unit is the easiest way. If you flip to the start of the Unit Types section, Infantry is the first thing there, right there alongside its more complicated brethren.

All the rules dealing with vehicles are not advanced rules those. Vehicles possess their own basic rules just like Infantry possess their own basic rules. Infantry just have no special rules, which is noted by them not having a special rules section. All unit types can follow the same processes for movement, shooting, assaulting and morale just like the others. The rules are just explained from the perspective of Infantry being plugged into the process. You could take "move 6" and "Special Rules: This unit has no special rules" slam Infantry into the unit types section and then explain the rules using bikes, while pointing out the special rules. The process would be exactly the same, just more complicated to understand. The core rules is about the PHASES and what units do in the phases, not about Infantry. The physic phase is located in the core rules, but I don't see any of you trying to claim that IG Conscripts are ML1 because its a basic rule.


Yes, vehicle rules are advanced rules when the rules are not covered in the core rulebook section. Are vehicles "all the models in the game"? That's what basic rules apply to. Are vehicle rules in the Core Rules section? Most assuredly not. Are we told that the Core Rules section contains all the basic rules we need? Yes we are. This indicates and corroborates that vehicle rules are in fact advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
We are not given a classification guide anywhere, you guys are assuming this. Just like using the "breaks or bends a rule" but leaving off the end part of the sentence stating "represented by a special rule".


I am sorry, but you are suffering a misconception if you think we are not given a classification system anywhere.

Classification system one. 1) Advanced rules are for different types of models - classifications that they list include a) "they have a special kind of weapon", b) "unusual skills" c) "they are different from their fellows9such as a unit leader or a heroic character), d) "because they are not normal infantry models" . We are given a second classification method - at the beginning of the core rulebook section we are specifically told"This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,0000 battles." It's the only sentence on that page (the only other writing on the page is "Core Rules"), so citing this is not cherry picking at all. This seems to be a pretty important piece of information. So, we can also classify rules into basic or advanced by whether or not they appear in the core rules section. Now, I have to bring up again a question you consistently dodged in the previous thread - where do you say the Core Rules section ends? We can not treat the statement on page 7 as a false statement. The classification system on page 13 does not contradict this, in fact it works with this.. No, you are wrong in asserting we are not given a classification guide anywhere when I am able to quote 2 systems from the rulebook.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:

2. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because...

Now remember, we have to read this from the perspective of someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page. We don't know what the unit types are yet, we don't know what a "bolt gun" is or any of the other terms it states. All we are able to gather from this statement is "advanced rules apply, because" it doesn't tell us what those rules ARE. It just tells us why something would have them.


Remember that this someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page has already read the page that states all the basic rules you need are in the Core Rules section. He might not know what a "boltgun" is or any of the other terms, but he would be able to tell from the table of contents and also when he reaches the end of the core rules section that he has passed out of where basic rules are, and has started in a section that has advanced rules.


You guys and definitions.

Models are not units, models go in units.
Units are units and models are models.
Are the rules in Unit Types, for models? No. They are for Units.
So if you want to go by definition of models, then we also have to go by the definition of units.
Unit Types are not models, models are models.
You want to claim you are following the definition for advanced rules, while ignoring the definition of models, this is hypocrisy.
The place we are told to find the advanced rules for UNITS is on the Army List Entry, not in the Unit Type section.
The line you guys love to quote talks about specific models.

So how can you claim to be, being precisely definition oriented, while using a statement that talks about SPECIFIC MODELS and then using that to apply it to UNITS.

A specific model would be an IC who purchased a bike in a tactical marine squad. The IC and the Sargent would specific models, because of options available to them, as specific models.
They are not units, they are models in a unit.
This "models move 6" is PRECEDED by "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move"
Explaining how something works, is not the standard for how something works.
If I explain to you how a car engine, on a car with 4 doors works. It will still work the same as a car with 2 doors works, the engine is what is explained.
You guys are concerned about the number of doors matching what was used in the explanation, which is irrelevant.

The basic rules are the rules for the phases and the sequences of those phases.
The rules for Infantry are part of their characteristic profiles, just like every unit has a characteristic profile.
Characteristic profiles are basic rules, not THE basic rules. The profile tells you HOW the unit interacts with the rules.

Lets take a real word example. You have two football teams.
Does everyone on each team, run the same speed, have the same weight and profile in regards to the role they are fulfilling?
No, they don't. Each team still plays the game the same way, following the same set of rules.
Each team still has the same positions filled. The individual characteristics on each time might be different, but the rules are the same.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 19:21:08


Post by: Happyjew


Ceann wrote:
Let's try to simplify this.

The question at hand is what determines what precedence a rule has.


No, the question at hand is whether or not you can change your mind after declaring your intent. The discussion on Basic rules vs Advanced rules was locked for a reason.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 19:24:22


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:


The issue is that at the beginning of the movement phase rules, it tells us that they will EXPLAIN the rules using Infantry, so everything that follows is using them to explain the rules..


Everything in the core rules section. Not everything dealing with movement.

Ceann wrote:
This leads, in my mind, to a misunderstanding that Infantry are the rules, even though we were told they would be used as an explanation.


This is ignoring that you get advanced rules "because they are not normal infantry models". In conjunction with having been told that all the basic rules are in the core rules section and that you have advanced rules with models that aren't infantry models, the rules for units that are not infantry units that are not merely referring you to a page number would be advanced rules. They're advanced rules whether or not they are in the special rule section. Any rule for a unit type that changes the distance the unit moves is an advanced rule because it overrides the basic rule "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase." (1st sentence in Movement Distance section, page 18). This is not a case of infantry being a standard here, as infantry are not mentioned in that rule at all. This is a case of some units being told they move 12", or any of the flying rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures, or for any of the vehicle movement rules. These override that basic rule of models moving only 6" yet are not listed as a special rule. They can not override the basic statement of models moving only 6" if they are a basic rule, yet we know they do override it. Therefore, these are advanced rules (which matches up with what we are told on page 13 - other types of units having advanced rules). This means, therefore, that Special Rules are not the only form of advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
The core rules explains the processes of moving, shooting, assaulting and morale. Infantry are used to explain the rules for ease of use, because they have no innate special rules. It would be much more confusing to a player if they tried to explain the rules using FMC's. Using the simplest and most common unit is the easiest way. If you flip to the start of the Unit Types section, Infantry is the first thing there, right there alongside its more complicated brethren.

All the rules dealing with vehicles are not advanced rules those. Vehicles possess their own basic rules just like Infantry possess their own basic rules. Infantry just have no special rules, which is noted by them not having a special rules section. All unit types can follow the same processes for movement, shooting, assaulting and morale just like the others. The rules are just explained from the perspective of Infantry being plugged into the process. You could take "move 6" and "Special Rules: This unit has no special rules" slam Infantry into the unit types section and then explain the rules using bikes, while pointing out the special rules. The process would be exactly the same, just more complicated to understand. The core rules is about the PHASES and what units do in the phases, not about Infantry. The physic phase is located in the core rules, but I don't see any of you trying to claim that IG Conscripts are ML1 because its a basic rule.


Yes, vehicle rules are advanced rules when the rules are not covered in the core rulebook section. Are vehicles "all the models in the game"? That's what basic rules apply to. Are vehicle rules in the Core Rules section? Most assuredly not. Are we told that the Core Rules section contains all the basic rules we need? Yes we are. This indicates and corroborates that vehicle rules are in fact advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
We are not given a classification guide anywhere, you guys are assuming this. Just like using the "breaks or bends a rule" but leaving off the end part of the sentence stating "represented by a special rule".


I am sorry, but you are suffering a misconception if you think we are not given a classification system anywhere.

Classification system one. 1) Advanced rules are for different types of models - classifications that they list include a) "they have a special kind of weapon", b) "unusual skills" c) "they are different from their fellows9such as a unit leader or a heroic character), d) "because they are not normal infantry models" . We are given a second classification method - at the beginning of the core rulebook section we are specifically told"This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,0000 battles." It's the only sentence on that page (the only other writing on the page is "Core Rules"), so citing this is not cherry picking at all. This seems to be a pretty important piece of information. So, we can also classify rules into basic or advanced by whether or not they appear in the core rules section. Now, I have to bring up again a question you consistently dodged in the previous thread - where do you say the Core Rules section ends? We can not treat the statement on page 7 as a false statement. The classification system on page 13 does not contradict this, in fact it works with this.. No, you are wrong in asserting we are not given a classification guide anywhere when I am able to quote 2 systems from the rulebook.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:

2. Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because...

Now remember, we have to read this from the perspective of someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page. We don't know what the unit types are yet, we don't know what a "bolt gun" is or any of the other terms it states. All we are able to gather from this statement is "advanced rules apply, because" it doesn't tell us what those rules ARE. It just tells us why something would have them.


Remember that this someone reading the book from the first time and just reaching this page has already read the page that states all the basic rules you need are in the Core Rules section. He might not know what a "boltgun" is or any of the other terms, but he would be able to tell from the table of contents and also when he reaches the end of the core rules section that he has passed out of where basic rules are, and has started in a section that has advanced rules.


You guys and definitions.

Models are not units, models go in units.
Units are units and models are models.
Are the rules in Unit Types, for models? No. They are for Units.
So if you want to go by definition of models, then we also have to go by the definition of units.
Unit Types are not models, models are models.
You want to claim you are following the definition for advanced rules, while ignoring the definition of models, this is hypocrisy.
The place we are told to find the advanced rules for UNITS is on the Army List Entry, not in the Unit Type section.
The line you guys love to quote talks about specific models.

So how can you claim to be, being precisely definition oriented, while using a statement that talks about SPECIFIC MODELS and then using that to apply it to SPECIFIC UNITS.

A specific model would be an IC who purchased a bike in a tactical marine squad. The IC and the Sargent would specific models, because of options available to them, as specific models.
They are not units, they are models in a unit.
This "models move 6" is PRECEDED by "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move"
Explaining how something works, is not the standard for how something works.
If I explain to you how a car engine, on a car with 4 doors works. It will still work the same as a car with 2 doors works, the engine is what is explained.
You guys are concerned about the number of doors matching the explanation, which has nothing to do with how the engine works.

The basic rules are the rules for the phases and the sequences of those phases.
The rules for Infantry are part of their characteristic profiles, just like every unit has a characteristic profile.
Characteristic profiles are basic rules, not THE basic rules. The profile tells you HOW the unit interacts with the rules.

Lets take a rea lword example. You have two football teams.
Does everyone on each team, run the same speed, have the same weight and profile in regards to the role they are fulfilling?
No, they don't. Each team still plays the game the same way, following the same set of rules.
Each team still has the same positions filled. The individual characteristics on each time might be different, but the rules are the same.


Yet again you dodge. I'm sorry, but we address your points directly with responses to your quotes. We ask for an answer from you? Nope.

For the umpteen jillionth time: "This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,0000 battles." Where do you say the Core Rules section ends? You are classifying rules outside what the rulebook indicates is the core rules section as basic rules, so you need to answer the question on where you think the core section ends. A subsequent question would probably be "Why do you think you get to classify rules outside the section said to contain all the basic rules as basic rules themselves?", but you really need to answer where the core rules section ends. We've been indulging you, and answering "riddle me this"es and the like; it's your turn to reciprocate and show that you want to have a reasonable debate on this and not just have things at the level of Col Impact's Cut-N-Paste (TM pending). This seems to be a very vital point, so you need to clarify your position on this.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 19:25:53


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
As I said, lets simplify this.

That sounds like more of a case of a lack of desire to pursue the questions I asked, especially as you diverge from the topics at hand and bring up things from other threads.

Ceann wrote:
If you want to talk about definitions, flip the the page labeled The Turn and look at the Turn Summary.
Those are a summary of the basic rules, Infantry are not mentioned at all. You have an exaggerated dedicated to a particular sentence of BvA, all based on an assumption that Infantry are the standard. All other issues to being discussed are contingent upon this assertion being true.

It is not just that sentence of BvA. It is also stated in numerous other places, too, which have been referenced.

Why does concept this trouble you so much?

Ceann wrote:
The basic rules are the PHASES and the sequences for the phases. Infantry are a unit type, they are not basic rules. Your entire arguments are Infantry are the standard is the premise for all of the BvA arguments.

Morale is also part of the basic rules, and that potentially involves every Phase (yes, you can be forced to make a Morale Check in the Movement Phase due to Dangerous Terrain).

Ceann wrote:
No one can point to a line that contradicts that the rules will be explained using Infantry.

No one is trying to contradict the line that the rules are explained using Infantry. When we remember what Basic vs Advanced states about Infantry and see what Unit Types states about Infantry, we see why the basic rules are explained using Infantry. This is not a great logical leap.

Ceann wrote:
The movement phase states "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
If a Calvary unit is moving 12", then it is not breaking any rule, so it cannot be an advanced rule. That is the bold statement per the BRB in the introduction.
"As you read through the rules, you will notice some of the text is bold, like this This highlights the most important elements of the rule in question and helps bring it to your eyes when skimming a page."

Meaning that moving your maximum distance is the MOST IMPORTANT element of the rule in question.

So you want to ignore what the movement phase states as the most important part of the rule. In favor of extrapolating some Infantry standard from BvA.

Regarding Movement Distance, does the Movement Phase ever allow a movement distance greater than 6"? Allowance for variant distances is not an excuse as it does not state any of these distances will be greater than 6".

Does moving greater than 6" come from a unit type? Yes. Is this from a unit type other than Infantry? Yes. Is being different than an Infantry model involve advanced rules? Yes. Is moving more than 6" breaking the above stated rule? Yes.

If you can provide a movement distance greater than 6" provided in the Movement Phase or an instruction telling us that the Movement Distance will be found in the Unit Type, please provide it. You have been asked numerous times, but revert to things which never actually state as such.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 19:45:39


Post by: doctortom


 Happyjew wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Let's try to simplify this.

The question at hand is what determines what precedence a rule has.


No, the question at hand is whether or not you can change your mind after declaring your intent. The discussion on Basic rules vs Advanced rules was locked for a reason.


Yes, that is the question at hand. To be fair, though, the discussion on basic vs advanced was locked because of the back and forth between Ceann and col impact. They're not having the back and forth here like they were there, and I'm waiting for col impact to respond to my last reply to him to see if he's willing to engage in an honest discussion on this.

For the point at hand, I think the differiing outflank rules make clear their intent on how to handle similar situations (of which deep strike is one) even if you are not willing to accept the RAW - we have "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves" in the Special rules for Outflank, but "When this unit arrives from Reserves" for ouflanking embedded in Infiltrate and in Scout special rules. Since they're supposed to be the same rule, it's obvious that "this unit" = "an Outflanking unit". It treats the way it is coming out of Reserves as a qualifier and applies it to the unit; from the two statements they indicate that it is treated as an Outflanking unit from the point it declares it will Outflank and it can't change its mind (otherwise, saying "this unit" forces the unit to Outflank wouldn't be true. So, if that's true that an Outflanking unit is a unit that has declared it it coming in from Reserves via Outflank, then a Deep Striking unit would be a unit that has declared that it will deep strike and will have to follow the rules for bringing in Deep Striking units from the board.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 19:56:17


Post by: Ceann



For the umpteen jillionth time: "This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,0000 battles." Where do you say the Core Rules section ends? You are classifying rules outside what the rulebook indicates is the core rules section as basic rules, so you need to answer the question on where you think the core section ends. A subsequent question would probably be "Why do you think you get to classify rules outside the section said to contain all the basic rules as basic rules themselves?", but you really need to answer where the core rules section ends. We've been indulging you, and answering "riddle me this"es and the like; it's your turn to reciprocate and show that you want to have a reasonable debate on this and not just have things at the level of Col Impact's Cut-N-Paste (TM pending). This seems to be a very vital point, so you need to clarify your position on this.


The core rules explains the following.
Units, models and their characteristics.
The basic phases and the sequencing of each phase.

Weapons are chosen as part of the "choose a weapon to fire" in the sequence of the shooting phase.
Weapons are not located in the core rules section, does that make weapons advanced rules? No. It makes them profiles for weapons.
Just like Unit Types are the profiles for units.Las cannons and stormbolters are used as examples to explain firing weapons, yet no one claims they are the basic weapons and all the others are advanced.
They are not rules, they are profiles for Units that fit into the basic rules. The only rules there are the special rules, which are notated as such.
The unit types does nothing except give you the profiles for how those units "move, shoot,assault or have morale" no new basic rules are explained there.

I have tried to simplify the questions because there are too many tangents and I feel like the core issue is here.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 20:07:12


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
As I said, lets simplify this.

That sounds like more of a case of a lack of desire to pursue the questions I asked, especially as you diverge from the topics at hand and bring up things from other threads.

Ceann wrote:
If you want to talk about definitions, flip the the page labeled The Turn and look at the Turn Summary.
Those are a summary of the basic rules, Infantry are not mentioned at all. You have an exaggerated dedicated to a particular sentence of BvA, all based on an assumption that Infantry are the standard. All other issues to being discussed are contingent upon this assertion being true.

It is not just that sentence of BvA. It is also stated in numerous other places, too, which have been referenced.

Why does concept this trouble you so much?

Ceann wrote:
The basic rules are the PHASES and the sequences for the phases. Infantry are a unit type, they are not basic rules. Your entire arguments are Infantry are the standard is the premise for all of the BvA arguments.

Morale is also part of the basic rules, and that potentially involves every Phase (yes, you can be forced to make a Morale Check in the Movement Phase due to Dangerous Terrain).

Ceann wrote:
No one can point to a line that contradicts that the rules will be explained using Infantry.

No one is trying to contradict the line that the rules are explained using Infantry. When we remember what Basic vs Advanced states about Infantry and see what Unit Types states about Infantry, we see why the basic rules are explained using Infantry. This is not a great logical leap.

Ceann wrote:
The movement phase states "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
If a Calvary unit is moving 12", then it is not breaking any rule, so it cannot be an advanced rule. That is the bold statement per the BRB in the introduction.
"As you read through the rules, you will notice some of the text is bold, like this This highlights the most important elements of the rule in question and helps bring it to your eyes when skimming a page."

Meaning that moving your maximum distance is the MOST IMPORTANT element of the rule in question.

So you want to ignore what the movement phase states as the most important part of the rule. In favor of extrapolating some Infantry standard from BvA.

Regarding Movement Distance, does the Movement Phase ever allow a movement distance greater than 6"? Allowance for variant distances is not an excuse as it does not state any of these distances will be greater than 6".

Does moving greater than 6" come from a unit type? Yes. Is this from a unit type other than Infantry? Yes. Is being different than an Infantry model involve advanced rules? Yes. Is moving more than 6" breaking the above stated rule? Yes.

If you can provide a movement distance greater than 6" provided in the Movement Phase or an instruction telling us that the Movement Distance will be found in the Unit Type, please provide it. You have been asked numerous times, but revert to things which never actually state as such.


No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue, both are perspectives are based entirely off of how we view the application of the rules at a basic level. What we were doing was discussing more and more tangents, which frankly will all be resolved by addressing the core issue.

It troubles me because as I have read the rules I have not come to your conclusion. I see logical reasons to not have this conclusion.

As far as I am aware you roll to see if you are wounded for dangerous terrain, not for morale.

I have provided, countless times, the references, yet you choose to ignore them. I will post it again.
"For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).

So you want to acknowledge "models move 6"" but ignore "For the time being, we’ll just explain". The preceding statement clearly invalidates "models move 6" as we were just told we were going to explained the rules for Infantry, not that they were a standard.

Then you also want to ignore " ]Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71). So if anything, it would seem that you are reading what you want to read and ignoring the rest. You also ignore that I have pointed out that the introduction tells us that the most important part of a rule will be bold and the bold part is that models may move their maximum distance. What I need to understand is why you are ignoring the entire section labeled "The Movement Phase" and skipping right over to a subsection that we were just told was going to explain infantry to us and then proclaim it gospel.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 20:48:01


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:



The core rules explains the following.
Units, models and their characteristics.
The basic phases and the sequencing of each phase.

Weapons are chosen as part of the "choose a weapon to fire" in the sequence of the shooting phase.
Weapons are not located in the core rules section, does that make weapons advanced rules? No. It makes them profiles for weapons.
Just like Unit Types are the profiles for units.Las cannons and stormbolters are used as examples to explain firing weapons, yet no one claims they are the basic weapons and all the others are advanced.
They are not rules, they are profiles for Units that fit into the basic rules. The only rules there are the special rules, which are notated as such.
The unit types does nothing except give you the profiles for how those units "move, shoot,assault or have morale" no new basic rules are explained there.

I have tried to simplify the questions because there are too many tangents and I feel like the core issue is here.


You should try to keep my quotes attributed, for people trying to follow this.

I'm sorry, but you're taking a key word "core rules" and heading off into your own spin without directly addressing the question.. What page number does the "core rules" end on? You seem to be having problems with the simple questions.

***

As a point - models with special kinds of weapons such as a boltgun are treated as having advanced rules - the rules for the boltgun are advanced rules. Yes, they are profiles for weapons. Not every weapon or every model has that weapon profile. The basic rules state that weapons have a profile and list the types of weapon. A specific profile would not be basic rules though according to a specific example on page 13 (citing boltgun as an example - feel free to explain where the advanced rules they say a model with a boltgun has if you're saying that the rules associated with them are basic rules yet the rulebook cites a model with one as having advanced rules).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:


No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue


Really? The question I gave you can't be much simpler - where does the core rulebook section end, and you managed to run off on a tangent instead of giving a simple answer. That doesn't simplify things. The quote about all the basic rules being in the core section, and asking you where the core section ends is getting back to first principles.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 21:15:19


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:



The core rules explains the following.
Units, models and their characteristics.
The basic phases and the sequencing of each phase.

Weapons are chosen as part of the "choose a weapon to fire" in the sequence of the shooting phase.
Weapons are not located in the core rules section, does that make weapons advanced rules? No. It makes them profiles for weapons.
Just like Unit Types are the profiles for units.Las cannons and stormbolters are used as examples to explain firing weapons, yet no one claims they are the basic weapons and all the others are advanced.
They are not rules, they are profiles for Units that fit into the basic rules. The only rules there are the special rules, which are notated as such.
The unit types does nothing except give you the profiles for how those units "move, shoot,assault or have morale" no new basic rules are explained there.

I have tried to simplify the questions because there are too many tangents and I feel like the core issue is here.


You should try to keep my quotes attributed, for people trying to follow this.

I'm sorry, but you're taking a key word "core rules" and heading off into your own spin without directly addressing the question.. What page number does the "core rules" end on? You seem to be having problems with the simple questions.

***

As a point - models with special kinds of weapons such as a boltgun are treated as having advanced rules - the rules for the boltgun are advanced rules. Yes, they are profiles for weapons. Not every weapon or every model has that weapon profile. The basic rules state that weapons have a profile and list the types of weapon. A specific profile would not be basic rules though according to a specific example on page 13 (citing boltgun as an example - feel free to explain where the advanced rules they say a model with a boltgun has if you're saying that the rules associated with them are basic rules yet the rulebook cites a model with one as having advanced rules).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:


No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue


Really? The question I gave you can't be much simpler - where does the core rulebook section end, and you managed to run off on a tangent instead of giving a simple answer. That doesn't simplify things. The quote about all the basic rules being in the core section, and asking you where the core section ends is getting back to first principles.


The core rules section ends on page 59.
Unit types starts on page 62 with the first unit type listed as Infantry.
If your logic is that any words written after the morale page are advanced rules, then Infantry breaks your logic by virtue of their Unit Type being located on page 62. As they are being attributed too as a standard.

If the core rules section contains ALL basic rules, then anything located in them would be a basic rule. Unit Types are part of the core rules, just like weapon profiles are part of the core rules and psyker powers are part of the core rules. Unit types are referenced and discussed inside the core rules, namely in the Models and Units section. The actual listing of each of those things is not located in core rules section, precisely because they are not rules, they are profiles. Units have profiles, weapons have profiles and psyker powers have profiles.

A specific model, with a special weapon that is a boltgun... So... A tactical marine Sargent, who is a specific model, with a combi-melta, which is a boltgun with a special rule melta.
That is an application of advanced rules rules applying to a specific model. Not every model in the unit has a combi-melta, a specific model in a unit does. Use some logic here please, if a boltgun is a special kind of weapon, then all weapons are special kinds of weapons, therefore none of them would be special because everyone would have a special kind of weapon. You need to have some specific criteria, such as a special rule, to make it, a special kind of weapon. Special means different from usual. This makes a lot more sense than "all boltgun are special".



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 21:34:09


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:



The core rules explains the following.
Units, models and their characteristics.
The basic phases and the sequencing of each phase.

Weapons are chosen as part of the "choose a weapon to fire" in the sequence of the shooting phase.
Weapons are not located in the core rules section, does that make weapons advanced rules? No. It makes them profiles for weapons.
Just like Unit Types are the profiles for units.Las cannons and stormbolters are used as examples to explain firing weapons, yet no one claims they are the basic weapons and all the others are advanced.
They are not rules, they are profiles for Units that fit into the basic rules. The only rules there are the special rules, which are notated as such.
The unit types does nothing except give you the profiles for how those units "move, shoot,assault or have morale" no new basic rules are explained there.

I have tried to simplify the questions because there are too many tangents and I feel like the core issue is here.


You should try to keep my quotes attributed, for people trying to follow this.

I'm sorry, but you're taking a key word "core rules" and heading off into your own spin without directly addressing the question.. What page number does the "core rules" end on? You seem to be having problems with the simple questions.

***

As a point - models with special kinds of weapons such as a boltgun are treated as having advanced rules - the rules for the boltgun are advanced rules. Yes, they are profiles for weapons. Not every weapon or every model has that weapon profile. The basic rules state that weapons have a profile and list the types of weapon. A specific profile would not be basic rules though according to a specific example on page 13 (citing boltgun as an example - feel free to explain where the advanced rules they say a model with a boltgun has if you're saying that the rules associated with them are basic rules yet the rulebook cites a model with one as having advanced rules).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:


No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue


Really? The question I gave you can't be much simpler - where does the core rulebook section end, and you managed to run off on a tangent instead of giving a simple answer. That doesn't simplify things. The quote about all the basic rules being in the core section, and asking you where the core section ends is getting back to first principles.


The core rules section ends on page 59.
Unit types starts on page 62 with the first unit type listed as Infantry.
If your logic is that any words written after the morale page are advanced rules, then Infantry breaks your logic by virtue of their Unit Type being located on page 62. As they are being attributed too as a standard.


That goes to show how much you've actually been paying attention to what I've been typing. I said any new rules not contained in the core rules section would be advanced rules. Infantry does not contain any new rules; therefore infantry does not break this. Sorry, try again.


Ceann wrote:
If the core rules section contains ALL basic rules, then anything located in them would be a basic rule. Unit Types are part of the core rules, just like weapon profiles are part of the core rules and psyker powers are part of the core rules. The actual listing of each of those things is not located in core rules section, precisely because they are not rules, they are profiles for the processes of the rules.


Containing "all the basic rules you need" does not mean that it does not contain references to advanced rules, at least to provide some basic definitionis. The basic rules for Unit types are that each unit has a unit type. What rules are associated with unit types come later - these are advanced rules. Weapon basic rules are that weapons have profiles; the specifics of the profile (what weapon has what profile) is not in the basic rules. (The ones in the core rulebook are in the appendix, after the Special Rules you tout as being advanced rules).


Ceann wrote:
A specific model, with a special weapon that is a boltgun... So... A tactical marine Sargent, who is a specific model, with a combi-melta, which is a boltgun with a special rule melta.
That is an application of advanced rules rules applying to a specific model. Not every model in the unit has a combi-melta, a specific model in a unit does. Use some logic here please, if a boltgun is a special kind of weapon, then all weapons are special kinds of weapons


you're starting to catch on, with some caveats...

Ceann wrote:
, therefore none of them would be special because everyone would have a special kind of weapon.


ANNNND you lost it again. Maybe it's because you are continuing to refer to any advanced rules as Special Rules. STOP IT. Even you can't (legitimately) deny that a model having a boltgun is specifically mentioned as an example of models having advanced rules. Therefore, the rules for specific weapons - their profile are treated as adavanced rules as we are told to treat boltguns as having special rules on page 13.

Ceann wrote:
,You need to have some specific criteria, such as a special rule, to make it, a special kind of weapon. Special means different from usual. This makes a lot more sense than "all boltgun are special".

I do have specific criteria. If it's not in the core rules section, it's an advanced rule. Just as the main rulebook instructs me by saying all the basic rules are in the core rules section. I do not find any new rules outside that section that are basic rules. They are not all special rules, which is where you keep having your stumbling point, but they ARE all advanced ruless.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 21:34:34


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue, both are perspectives are based entirely off of how we view the application of the rules at a basic level. What we were doing was discussing more and more tangents, which frankly will all be resolved by addressing the core issue.

My asking those questions was an attempt at simplifying the discussion. You do not answer the questions and veer of on a tangent. That does not quantify as simplifying in any method I have heard of.

Ceann wrote:
It troubles me because as I have read the rules I have not come to your conclusion. I see logical reasons to not have this conclusion.

All based on a user construct instead of using the terms provided.

Ceann wrote:
As far as I am aware you roll to see if you are wounded for dangerous terrain, not for morale.

Then you need to review what causes a Morale Check. Under WHEN TO TEST:
• Casualties: A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale check at the end of that phase. There is an exception: units that lose 25% or more of their current models in the Assault phase do not take a Morale check.

If a quarter or more of a unit falls to Dangerous Terrain means a Morale Check.

Ceann wrote:
I have provided, countless times, the references, yet you choose to ignore them. I will post it again.
"For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).

So you want to acknowledge "models move 6"" but ignore "For the time being, we’ll just explain". The preceding statement clearly invalidates "models move 6" as we were just told we were going to explained the rules for Infantry, not that they were a standard.

Then you also want to ignore " ]Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71). So if anything, it would seem that you are reading what you want to read and ignoring the rest. You also ignore that I have pointed out that the introduction tells us that the most important part of a rule will be bold and the bold part is that models may move their maximum distance. What I need to understand is why you are ignoring the entire section labeled "The Movement Phase" and skipping right over to a subsection that we were just told was going to explain infantry to us and then proclaim it gospel.

Distance is not mentioned in your quotes. A referral for Distance is not mentioned in your quotes. A "way" of moving is not the distance of moving. Nothing in these quote counters the explicit direction in Movement Distance of models moving up to 6".

This does not answer the question or the challenge. It ignores the question and challenge and provides an answer you choose to use. This has been pointed out repeatedly.

If we go by this determination, we only have Infantry Distances alone. Going by your assessment, then, what is the Movement Distance for Jet Pack? Artillery? Monstrous Creatures? Jump units when not Jumping?

It should be pointed out that Movement Distance does not restrict itself to just Infantry models, but "models" in general. That's because these are the basic models.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 21:56:33


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:



The core rules explains the following.
Units, models and their characteristics.
The basic phases and the sequencing of each phase.

Weapons are chosen as part of the "choose a weapon to fire" in the sequence of the shooting phase.
Weapons are not located in the core rules section, does that make weapons advanced rules? No. It makes them profiles for weapons.
Just like Unit Types are the profiles for units.Las cannons and stormbolters are used as examples to explain firing weapons, yet no one claims they are the basic weapons and all the others are advanced.
They are not rules, they are profiles for Units that fit into the basic rules. The only rules there are the special rules, which are notated as such.
The unit types does nothing except give you the profiles for how those units "move, shoot,assault or have morale" no new basic rules are explained there.

I have tried to simplify the questions because there are too many tangents and I feel like the core issue is here.


You should try to keep my quotes attributed, for people trying to follow this.

I'm sorry, but you're taking a key word "core rules" and heading off into your own spin without directly addressing the question.. What page number does the "core rules" end on? You seem to be having problems with the simple questions.

***

As a point - models with special kinds of weapons such as a boltgun are treated as having advanced rules - the rules for the boltgun are advanced rules. Yes, they are profiles for weapons. Not every weapon or every model has that weapon profile. The basic rules state that weapons have a profile and list the types of weapon. A specific profile would not be basic rules though according to a specific example on page 13 (citing boltgun as an example - feel free to explain where the advanced rules they say a model with a boltgun has if you're saying that the rules associated with them are basic rules yet the rulebook cites a model with one as having advanced rules).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:


No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue


Really? The question I gave you can't be much simpler - where does the core rulebook section end, and you managed to run off on a tangent instead of giving a simple answer. That doesn't simplify things. The quote about all the basic rules being in the core section, and asking you where the core section ends is getting back to first principles.


The core rules section ends on page 59.
Unit types starts on page 62 with the first unit type listed as Infantry.
If your logic is that any words written after the morale page are advanced rules, then Infantry breaks your logic by virtue of their Unit Type being located on page 62. As they are being attributed too as a standard.


That goes to show how much you've actually been paying attention to what I've been typing. I said any new rules not contained in the core rules section would be advanced rules. Infantry does not contain any new rules; therefore infantry does not break this. Sorry, try again.


Ceann wrote:
If the core rules section contains ALL basic rules, then anything located in them would be a basic rule. Unit Types are part of the core rules, just like weapon profiles are part of the core rules and psyker powers are part of the core rules. The actual listing of each of those things is not located in core rules section, precisely because they are not rules, they are profiles for the processes of the rules.


Containing "all the basic rules you need" does not mean that it does not contain references to advanced rules, at least to provide some basic definitionis. The basic rules for Unit types are that each unit has a unit type. What rules are associated with unit types come later - these are advanced rules. Weapon basic rules are that weapons have profiles; the specifics of the profile (what weapon has what profile) is not in the basic rules. (The ones in the core rulebook are in the appendix, after the Special Rules you tout as being advanced rules).


Ceann wrote:
A specific model, with a special weapon that is a boltgun... So... A tactical marine Sargent, who is a specific model, with a combi-melta, which is a boltgun with a special rule melta.
That is an application of advanced rules rules applying to a specific model. Not every model in the unit has a combi-melta, a specific model in a unit does. Use some logic here please, if a boltgun is a special kind of weapon, then all weapons are special kinds of weapons


you're starting to catch on, with some caveats...

Ceann wrote:
, therefore none of them would be special because everyone would have a special kind of weapon.


ANNNND you lost it again. Maybe it's because you are continuing to refer to any advanced rules as Special Rules. STOP IT. Even you can't (legitimately) deny that a model having a boltgun is specifically mentioned as an example of models having advanced rules. Therefore, the rules for specific weapons - their profile are treated as adavanced rules as we are told to treat boltguns as having special rules on page 13.

Ceann wrote:
,You need to have some specific criteria, such as a special rule, to make it, a special kind of weapon. Special means different from usual. This makes a lot more sense than "all boltgun are special".

I do have specific criteria. If it's not in the core rules section, it's an advanced rule. Just as the main rulebook instructs me by saying all the basic rules are in the core rules section. I do not find any new rules outside that section that are basic rules. They are not all special rules, which is where you keep having your stumbling point, but they ARE all advanced rules.


You keep forgetting the rest of BvA you are too laser focused on a single sentence.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
A Calvary unit moving 12" is using the rules for movement, the movement rules state they are permitted to move their maximum distance. It is not breaking any rule.

How can a boltgun be an advanced rule? In order to BE an advanced rule you HAVE to be conflicting with a basic rule. If there is no gun that is THE "basic rule" then no weapon can be an advanced rule because it has NOTHING to conflict with. The only thing a weapon can conflict with are the rules for shooting or the rules for assault.
Your argument holds no water in practice.

You are right, they are not all rules, they are profiles, that the rules use.




Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 22:00:45


Post by: col_impact


 doctortom wrote:


Yes, that is the question at hand. To be fair, though, the discussion on basic vs advanced was locked because of the back and forth between Ceann and col impact. They're not having the back and forth here like they were there, and I'm waiting for col impact to respond to my last reply to him to see if he's willing to engage in an honest discussion on this.

For the point at hand, I think the differiing outflank rules make clear their intent on how to handle similar situations (of which deep strike is one) even if you are not willing to accept the RAW - we have "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves" in the Special rules for Outflank, but "When this unit arrives from Reserves" for ouflanking embedded in Infiltrate and in Scout special rules. Since they're supposed to be the same rule, it's obvious that "this unit" = "an Outflanking unit". It treats the way it is coming out of Reserves as a qualifier and applies it to the unit; from the two statements they indicate that it is treated as an Outflanking unit from the point it declares it will Outflank and it can't change its mind (otherwise, saying "this unit" forces the unit to Outflank wouldn't be true. So, if that's true that an Outflanking unit is a unit that has declared it it coming in from Reserves via Outflank, then a Deep Striking unit would be a unit that has declared that it will deep strike and will have to follow the rules for bringing in Deep Striking units from the board.


I am not sure what continued discussion on the question at hand is going to bring.

You have already admitted that per the Rules As Written a unit that is placed in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves can simply elect to walk on the board from Reserves when it comes time to Roll for Reserves. No rule prevents this.

Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.

So per RAW a unit that announces that it will Deep Strike can technically still opt to move on the battlefield from Reserves. Instead of choosing the permission which involves Deep Strike-ing onto the battlefield, the unit opts for the permission of Move-ing On From Reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 22:07:50


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
No, actually it sounds like I wish to simply the issue, both are perspectives are based entirely off of how we view the application of the rules at a basic level. What we were doing was discussing more and more tangents, which frankly will all be resolved by addressing the core issue.

My asking those questions was an attempt at simplifying the discussion. You do not answer the questions and veer of on a tangent. That does not quantify as simplifying in any method I have heard of.

Ceann wrote:
It troubles me because as I have read the rules I have not come to your conclusion. I see logical reasons to not have this conclusion.

All based on a user construct instead of using the terms provided.

Ceann wrote:
As far as I am aware you roll to see if you are wounded for dangerous terrain, not for morale.

Then you need to review what causes a Morale Check. Under WHEN TO TEST:
• Casualties: A unit losing 25% or more of its current models during a single phase must take a Morale check at the end of that phase. There is an exception: units that lose 25% or more of their current models in the Assault phase do not take a Morale check.

If a quarter or more of a unit falls to Dangerous Terrain means a Morale Check.

Ceann wrote:
I have provided, countless times, the references, yet you choose to ignore them. I will post it again.
"For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).

So you want to acknowledge "models move 6"" but ignore "For the time being, we’ll just explain". The preceding statement clearly invalidates "models move 6" as we were just told we were going to explained the rules for Infantry, not that they were a standard.

Then you also want to ignore " ]Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71). So if anything, it would seem that you are reading what you want to read and ignoring the rest. You also ignore that I have pointed out that the introduction tells us that the most important part of a rule will be bold and the bold part is that models may move their maximum distance. What I need to understand is why you are ignoring the entire section labeled "The Movement Phase" and skipping right over to a subsection that we were just told was going to explain infantry to us and then proclaim it gospel.

Distance is not mentioned in your quotes. A referral for Distance is not mentioned in your quotes. A "way" of moving is not the distance of moving. Nothing in these quote counters the explicit direction in Movement Distance of models moving up to 6".

This does not answer the question or the challenge. It ignores the question and challenge and provides an answer you choose to use. This has been pointed out repeatedly.

If we go by this determination, we only have Infantry Distances alone. Going by your assessment, then, what is the Movement Distance for Jet Pack? Artillery? Monstrous Creatures? Jump units when not Jumping?

It should be pointed out that Movement Distance does not restrict itself to just Infantry models, but "models" in general. That's because these are the basic models.


Well I guess lucky for us there is "Morale Phase" right?
Sorry I didn't conclude this series of events taking place for us to have a failed wound roll and fall under 25%. It was so clearly outlined.

You ask for my reference, I provide it and you ignore it, then ask for my reference again.
If you cannot dispute my references then clearly they are sufficient based on your lack of repudiation.

They are not basic model rules, they are the rules for Infantry, as we were just told they would be explained to us.
But you continue to ignore this and ignore my other points. It also states that it represents most models, not all models, but clearly that means nothing to you also.
If it doesn't represent all models, then obviously doesn't cover the entire spectrum of basic movement as a value.

The movement for those units is listed in their unit types. "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
I don't see them breaking any rule except for the one that was explained to you that you take as a standard.
I lined out the statements that I need for you to explain to me how they are wrong and you continue to ignore them.
Please read "The Movement Phase" rules and explain to me how my interpretation is wrong and how I am misunderstanding that the rules will be EXPLAINED using Infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
 doctortom wrote:


Yes, that is the question at hand. To be fair, though, the discussion on basic vs advanced was locked because of the back and forth between Ceann and col impact. They're not having the back and forth here like they were there, and I'm waiting for col impact to respond to my last reply to him to see if he's willing to engage in an honest discussion on this.

For the point at hand, I think the differiing outflank rules make clear their intent on how to handle similar situations (of which deep strike is one) even if you are not willing to accept the RAW - we have "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves" in the Special rules for Outflank, but "When this unit arrives from Reserves" for ouflanking embedded in Infiltrate and in Scout special rules. Since they're supposed to be the same rule, it's obvious that "this unit" = "an Outflanking unit". It treats the way it is coming out of Reserves as a qualifier and applies it to the unit; from the two statements they indicate that it is treated as an Outflanking unit from the point it declares it will Outflank and it can't change its mind (otherwise, saying "this unit" forces the unit to Outflank wouldn't be true. So, if that's true that an Outflanking unit is a unit that has declared it it coming in from Reserves via Outflank, then a Deep Striking unit would be a unit that has declared that it will deep strike and will have to follow the rules for bringing in Deep Striking units from the board.


I am not sure what continued discussion on the question at hand is going to bring.

You have already admitted that per the Rules As Written a unit that is placed in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves can simply elect to walk on the board from Reserves when it comes time to Roll for Reserves. No rule prevents this.

Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.

So per RAW a unit that announces that it will Deep Strike can technically still opt to move on the battlefield from Reserves. Instead of choosing the permission which involves Deep Strike-ing onto the battlefield, the unit opts for the permission of Move-ing On From Reserves.


It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.
It is not a matter of "nothing permits this" the rules are ultimately permissive, you are only allowed to do what you are told to do.
Deepstrike reserves initiates using the Deep Strike rule.

The question here is what PERMITS YOU, to ignore the deployment process for deep strike or outflank.
The answer is nothing permits you too, because Outflank and Deepstrike will be located on the Army List Entry, giving them precedence over the BRB Reserve rule.
Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 22:14:20


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.


Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:

The question here is what PERMITS YOU, to ignore the deployment process for deep strike or outflank.
The answer is nothing permits you too, because Outflank and Deepstrike will be located on the Army List Entry, giving them precedence over the BRB Reserve rule.
Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.


As already pointed out, Reserves is a special rule.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 22:39:28


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.


Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:

The question here is what PERMITS YOU, to ignore the deployment process for deep strike or outflank.
The answer is nothing permits you too, because Outflank and Deepstrike will be located on the Army List Entry, giving them precedence over the BRB Reserve rule.
Your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.


As already pointed out, Reserves is a special rule.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deepstrike in its entirety is invoked once you declare the units are deep striking.
I am asking you to post the rule and page that specify that you ignore this.
That you can partially use a rule.
It seems you cannot provide that information, likely because it doesn't exist, so you are wrong by lack of repudiation.
Reserves might be a special rule for missions, it however is not located in the codex of a unit, which I can assure you that Outflank or Deepstrike will be noted on the codex or Army List Entry for a unit that has them.

BRB Reserve rules have no precedence and are overridden.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 22:45:33


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
You ask for my reference, I provide it and you ignore it, then ask for my reference again.
If you cannot dispute my references then clearly they are sufficient based on your lack of repudiation.

I have disputed your references based on the questions and standards being set. I set the standards in the question. You provided a quote that does not address what was requested. I am within my full capabilities of ignoring a reference which does not meet the required standards.

Ceann wrote:
They are not basic model rules, they are the rules for Infantry, as we were just told they would be explained to us.
But you continue to ignore this and ignore my other points. It also states that it represents most models, not all models, but clearly that means nothing to you also.
If it doesn't represent all models, then obviously doesn't cover the entire spectrum of basic movement as a value.

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace", isn't a directive, but a descriptive.

And while it may not represent everything, it is what is stated in the basic rules without directives to refer to something else. Again, nothing about referring to the unit types to find out the limit of a model's movement, just "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase," being the only thing that actually pertains to any distance we refer to in this section of the book.

Ceann wrote:
The movement for those units is listed in their unit types.

An actual quote is required for this. This is never stated. Nor is it supported when we actually review the Unit Types section. There are many units which do not define their movement distance in that section. I have already

Ceann wrote:
"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
I don't see them breaking any rule except for the one that was explained to you that you take as a standard.
I lined out the statements that I need for you to explain to me how they are wrong and you continue to ignore them.
Please read "The Movement Phase" rules and explain to me how my interpretation is wrong and how I am misunderstanding that the rules will be EXPLAINED using Infantry.

And because that statement of moving 6" is the definitive standard, anything else is breaking that rule. You have permission to do it from the unit type itself, unlike changing how a unit in Reserves deploys, but nothing in the Movement Phase tells you that the Unit Type will change this Distance. The explanations have been given. You see standards where there are none explicitly written. I have given you the necessary requirements in the questions I have asked, but you refuse to accept where they may lead you. I am done with this tangent, as you have refused to answer any of the questions I have posed properly..


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 22:47:47


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Deepstrike in its entirety is invoked once you declare the units are deep striking.
I am asking you to post the rule and page that specify that you ignore this.
That you can partially use a rule.
It seems you cannot provide that information, likely because it doesn't exist, so you are wrong by lack of repudiation.
Reserves might be a special rule for missions, it however is not located in the codex of a unit, which I can assure you that Outflank or Deepstrike will be noted on the codex or Army List Entry for a unit that has them.

BRB Reserve rules have no precedence and are overridden.


The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 22:56:32


Post by: AndrewC


Just to clarify, are you saying that you roll for reserves and then decide how the figure comes on, or declare how its coming on and then roll?

Cheers

Andrew


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 22:59:55


Post by: col_impact


 AndrewC wrote:
Just to clarify, are you saying that you roll for reserves and then decide how the figure comes on, or declare how its coming on and then roll?

Cheers

Andrew


I specify that the unit is going to deploy normally before making the roll for arrival from Reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 23:00:46


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
You ask for my reference, I provide it and you ignore it, then ask for my reference again.
If you cannot dispute my references then clearly they are sufficient based on your lack of repudiation.

I have disputed your references based on the questions and standards being set. I set the standards in the question. You provided a quote that does not address what was requested. I am within my full capabilities of ignoring a reference which does not meet the required standards.

Ceann wrote:
They are not basic model rules, they are the rules for Infantry, as we were just told they would be explained to us.
But you continue to ignore this and ignore my other points. It also states that it represents most models, not all models, but clearly that means nothing to you also.
If it doesn't represent all models, then obviously doesn't cover the entire spectrum of basic movement as a value.

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace", isn't a directive, but a descriptive.

And while it may not represent everything, it is what is stated in the basic rules without directives to refer to something else. Again, nothing about referring to the unit types to find out the limit of a model's movement, just "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase," being the only thing that actually pertains to any distance we refer to in this section of the book.

Ceann wrote:
The movement for those units is listed in their unit types.

An actual quote is required for this. This is never stated. Nor is it supported when we actually review the Unit Types section. There are many units which do not define their movement distance in that section. I have already

Ceann wrote:
"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
I don't see them breaking any rule except for the one that was explained to you that you take as a standard.
I lined out the statements that I need for you to explain to me how they are wrong and you continue to ignore them.
Please read "The Movement Phase" rules and explain to me how my interpretation is wrong and how I am misunderstanding that the rules will be EXPLAINED using Infantry.

And because that statement of moving 6" is the definitive standard, anything else is breaking that rule. You have permission to do it from the unit type itself, unlike changing how a unit in Reserves deploys, but nothing in the Movement Phase tells you that the Unit Type will change this Distance. The explanations have been given. You see standards where there are none explicitly written. I have given you the necessary requirements in the questions I have asked, but you refuse to accept where they may lead you. I am done with this tangent, as you have refused to answer any of the questions I have posed properly..


All of your arguments stem from this "Models move up to 6"
The fact that "models move 6" is being declared as an explanation prior to it being stated, invalidates it as a standard.
You cannot repudiate this so you ignore it.

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section(pg 61-71)


This entire statement including the page numbers in the physical BRB tell us exactly what movement applies too and tells us that Infantry will be used to explain the rules.
"Models move up to 6" is an explanation. If anyone is seeing standards where they aren't written it is you, as Infantry is never claimed as a standard, you assume this after being told it will be explained.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
 AndrewC wrote:
Just to clarify, are you saying that you roll for reserves and then decide how the figure comes on, or declare how its coming on and then roll?

Cheers

Andrew


I specify that the unit is going to deploy normally before making the roll for arrival from Reserves.


You cannot specify that.
The reserve roll is OVERRIDDEN by the deep strike roll.
If you declared it as coming in via deepstrike, then it does.

You have yet to provide a reference that permits you to do this.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 23:08:35


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


You cannot specify that.
The reserve roll is OVERRIDDEN by the deep strike roll.
If you declared it as coming in via deepstrike, then it does.

You have yet to provide a reference that permits you to do this.


Reserves is a special rule and is never overridden by BvA.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 23:16:47


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


You cannot specify that.
The reserve roll is OVERRIDDEN by the deep strike roll.
If you declared it as coming in via deepstrike, then it does.

You have yet to provide a reference that permits you to do this.


Reserves is a special rule and is never overridden by BvA.


I have a SM Librarian.
I take Terminator Armor.
He gains Deep Strike.

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."

Reserves conflicts with deepstrike when we are deploying our units.
Deepstrike came from the Army List Entry.
Deepstrike has precedence.
Goodbye "Reserves"


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 23:22:18


Post by: AndrewC


col, I have no issue with that, as long as the roll is clearly stated then I see no problem as to how it enters.

Ceann, A question, if a deep striking unit mishaps and rolls a delay result, how does it enter the board when it is allowed to do so? Because if we follow your insistence that we follow the deep strike rules verbatim, a delay result forces the unit into ongoing reserves and not deep strike reserves. Ergo it would then be unable to enter the board in any other way except by walking.

Cheers

Andrew


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/28 23:58:22


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


I have a SM Librarian.
I take Terminator Armor.
He gains Deep Strike.

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."

Reserves conflicts with deepstrike when we are deploying our units.
Deepstrike came from the Army List Entry.
Deepstrike has precedence.
Goodbye "Reserves"


The rules for Reserves and Deep Strike are printed in the BRB. Neither overrides the other. They are both special rules printed in the BRB.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 00:02:38


Post by: Ceann


 AndrewC wrote:
col, I have no issue with that, as long as the roll is clearly stated then I see no problem as to how it enters.

Ceann, A question, if a deep striking unit mishaps and rolls a delay result, how does it enter the board when it is allowed to do so? Because if we follow your insistence that we follow the deep strike rules verbatim, a delay result forces the unit into ongoing reserves and not deep strike reserves. Ergo it would then be unable to enter the board in any other way except by walking.

Cheers

Andrew


The issue is that Deepstrike states that you "roll for the arrival" and then "deploy as follows"
The roll for arrival is overriding the normal reserve roll, arrivaing and misshaping would satisfy Deep Strike.

The rule for Deepstrike also states that when it is put into reserves you have the option to put it in Deep Strike reserves.
So you would again be able to declare which reserve you would be placing it in.
So you can declare whether it will walk on or whether it will deepstrike from ongoing reserves.
You however cannot pick one and then choose the other next turn.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


I have a SM Librarian.
I take Terminator Armor.
He gains Deep Strike.

"On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex.
Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence."

Reserves conflicts with deepstrike when we are deploying our units.
Deepstrike came from the Army List Entry.
Deepstrike has precedence.
Goodbye "Reserves"


The rules for Reserves and Deep Strike are printed in the BRB. Neither overrides the other. They are both special rules printed in the BRB.


Incorrect, the words "Deep Strike" will be printed on the special rules section of a unit's Army List Entry with deep strike.
"Reserves" will not be.

BvA is satisfied.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 00:07:18


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Incorrect, the words "Deep Strike" will be printed on the special rules section of a unit's Army List Entry with deep strike.
"Reserves" will not be.

BvA is satisfied.


The rules for Reserves and Deep Strike are printed in the BRB. Neither overrides the other. They are both special rules printed in the BRB.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 00:24:57


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:All of your arguments stem from this "Models move up to 6"
The fact that "models move 6" is being declared as an explanation prior to it being stated, invalidates it as a standard.
You cannot repudiate this so you ignore it.

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section(pg 61-71)


This entire statement including the page numbers in the physical BRB tell us exactly what movement applies too and tells us that Infantry will be used to explain the rules.
"Models move up to 6" is an explanation. If anyone is seeing standards where they aren't written it is you, as Infantry is never claimed as a standard, you assume this after being told it will be explained.

The phrase, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase" is not part of the same subsection as the quote you are going off of. It is a flat directive given for Movement Distance. By placing it as part of the explanation of the section you are taking it out of context.

I repudiate it having any valid connections that you are assuming because it does not state that which would support your premise. I have given the reasons why. You ignore them.

And you still are not willing to answer the questions asked. You prefer the politician's route and answer the question you want to give.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:
The issue is that Deepstrike states that you "roll for the arrival" and then "deploy as follows"
The roll for arrival is overriding the normal reserve roll, arrivaing and misshaping would satisfy Deep Strike.

The roll for arrival is not overriding the normal Reserves roll, it includes it:
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows

Nothing is overriding the Roll. However, it does change how the unit arriving from Reserves from the normal method of deploying.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 00:45:16


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:All of your arguments stem from this "Models move up to 6"
The fact that "models move 6" is being declared as an explanation prior to it being stated, invalidates it as a standard.
You cannot repudiate this so you ignore it.

For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by
far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be
discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section(pg 61-71)


This entire statement including the page numbers in the physical BRB tell us exactly what movement applies too and tells us that Infantry will be used to explain the rules.
"Models move up to 6" is an explanation. If anyone is seeing standards where they aren't written it is you, as Infantry is never claimed as a standard, you assume this after being told it will be explained.

The phrase, "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase" is not part of the same subsection as the quote you are going off of. It is a flat directive given for Movement Distance. By placing it as part of the explanation of the section you are taking it out of context.

I repudiate it having any valid connections that you are assuming because it does not state that which would support your premise. I have given the reasons why. You ignore them.

And you still are not willing to answer the questions asked. You prefer the politician's route and answer the question you want to give.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:
The issue is that Deepstrike states that you "roll for the arrival" and then "deploy as follows"
The roll for arrival is overriding the normal reserve roll, arrivaing and misshaping would satisfy Deep Strike.

The roll for arrival is not overriding the normal Reserves roll, it includes it:
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows

Nothing is overriding the Roll. However, it does change how the unit arriving from Reserves from the normal method of deploying.


"explain how squads of Infantry move"
"Models move up to 6"

Seems like it is explaining them well enough for me.
There is no other logical conclusion for what they could be explaining, considering they just said they would tell us how they move.
Models do not move "up to 6".
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

This is BOLD and per the Introduction, makes it the most IMPORTANT aspect of movement.
More important than..."models move up to 6", which is not bold.

"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units"
You roll for the arrival USING the rules for reserve rolls.
You might use that rule, but their arrival has been replaced deepstrike.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 01:15:05


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
"explain how squads of Infantry move"
"Models move up to 6"

Seems like it is explaining them well enough for me.
There is no other logical conclusion for what they could be explaining, considering they just said they would tell us how they move.
Models do not move "up to 6".
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

This is BOLD and per the Introduction, makes it the most IMPORTANT aspect of movement.
More important than..."models move up to 6", which is not bold.

One states what the Movement Distance is for basic rules. One does not. Neither tells us to refer to Unit Type for distance. It really is that simple.

Ceann wrote:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units"
You roll for the arrival USING the rules for reserve rolls.
You might use that rule, but their arrival has been replaced deepstrike.

As I said, the method of deploying is changing, the roll is not changed.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 01:15:23


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units"
You roll for the arrival USING the rules for reserve rolls.
You might use that rule, but their arrival has been replaced deepstrike.


The unit can simply elect to be Moving On From Reserves instead.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


The player has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield. No rule takes away this permission or prevents the player from doing so.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 01:31:43


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
"explain how squads of Infantry move"
"Models move up to 6"

Seems like it is explaining them well enough for me.
There is no other logical conclusion for what they could be explaining, considering they just said they would tell us how they move.
Models do not move "up to 6".
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

This is BOLD and per the Introduction, makes it the most IMPORTANT aspect of movement.
More important than..."models move up to 6", which is not bold.

One states what the Movement Distance is for basic rules. One does not. Neither tells us to refer to Unit Type for distance. It really is that simple.

Ceann wrote:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units"
You roll for the arrival USING the rules for reserve rolls.
You might use that rule, but their arrival has been replaced deepstrike.

As I said, the method of deploying is changing, the roll is not changed.


Except it isn't that simple.

You need to explain how you are separating "explain how infantry move" from "models move 6".
If you are told something will be explained to you, it is not illogical to take the next thing you are told as the thing that is being explained.
You also need to explain the statement after "models move up to 6" which is...

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Clearly it doesn't represent all creatures moving.
Only the ones explained, as they are the most common.

If it only represents most models, then it doesn't represent all models, making it not a standard because a standard would apply to all models.
Yet you have asserted it does apply to all models, making it a standard. It CLEARLY states most, not all.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 05:04:23


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
Except it isn't that simple.

You need to explain how you are separating "explain how infantry move" from "models move 6".
If you are told something will be explained to you, it is not illogical to take the next thing you are told as the thing that is being explained.
You also need to explain the statement after "models move up to 6" which is...

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Clearly it doesn't represent all creatures moving.
Only the ones explained, as they are the most common.

If it only represents most models, then it doesn't represent all models, making it not a standard because a standard would apply to all models.
Yet you have asserted it does apply to all models, making it a standard. It CLEARLY states most, not all.

The statement of distance is a directive. The rest is an explanation as to why this distance is stated. Do you know the difference between a directive and an explanation? It is the difference between "what" and "why". The Introduction doesn't say "what", just "why".

Basic rules apply unless it states otherwise. Movement Distance only states one distance and does not state a directive to look elsewhere. Unit Types, which are an advanced ruleset, do state otherwise. At no other point before Unit Types is it actually stated that models can move more than 6" in the Movement Phase.

It is that simple. Is this clear?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 12:39:50


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
Except it isn't that simple.

You need to explain how you are separating "explain how infantry move" from "models move 6".
If you are told something will be explained to you, it is not illogical to take the next thing you are told as the thing that is being explained.
You also need to explain the statement after "models move up to 6" which is...

"This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Clearly it doesn't represent all creatures moving.
Only the ones explained, as they are the most common.

If it only represents most models, then it doesn't represent all models, making it not a standard because a standard would apply to all models.
Yet you have asserted it does apply to all models, making it a standard. It CLEARLY states most, not all.

The statement of distance is a directive. The rest is an explanation as to why this distance is stated. Do you know the difference between a directive and an explanation? It is the difference between "what" and "why". The Introduction doesn't say "what", just "why".

Basic rules apply unless it states otherwise. Movement Distance only states one distance and does not state a directive to look elsewhere. Unit Types, which are an advanced ruleset, do state otherwise. At no other point before Unit Types is it actually stated that models can move more than 6" in the Movement Phase.

It is that simple. Is this clear?


No, it isn't clear. You can't cherry pick one sentence and follow it verbatim. Prior to your model moves 6 we were told that we would be explained infantry.

Immediately after it states it applies to most models, not all models.

Your argument is built upon this statement being a standard that applies to everything. I would argue that stating it applies to most models and stating that other movements would be discussed later is clearly stating otherwise.

It does say basic rules apply to all models, it doesn't say infantry rules apply to all models. I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 14:40:04


Post by: AndrewC


Ceann wrote:

The rule for Deepstrike also states that when it is put into reserves you have the option to put it in Deep Strike reserves.
So you would again be able to declare which reserve you would be placing it in.
So you can declare whether it will walk on or whether it will deepstrike from ongoing reserves.
You however cannot pick one and then choose the other next turn.


Citation on that please.

In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Cheers

Andrew



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 15:29:04


Post by: Ceann


 AndrewC wrote:
Ceann wrote:

The rule for Deepstrike also states that when it is put into reserves you have the option to put it in Deep Strike reserves.
So you would again be able to declare which reserve you would be placing it in.
So you can declare whether it will walk on or whether it will deepstrike from ongoing reserves.
You however cannot pick one and then choose the other next turn.


Citation on that please.

In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Cheers

Andrew



The rule for deepstrike is an option WHEN the unit is being put into reserves, ongoing reserves is just another sub category of reserves just like deep strike is.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

If you choose to tell them, then you are using deep strike and they go into deep strike reserve and follow the rules for deep strike.
You are still following the rules for reserves, as it states. Ongoing reserves bypasses the roll.
Deepstrike tells you to refer to the rules for the roll for arrival, the rules for Reserves are presently telling you to use ongoing reserves, this however does not again mitigate "deploy as follows".
You are only told to refer to the rules for Reserves for the ROLL, not for the arrival/deployment. So in this circumstance you simply wouldn't roll and would proceed.

The deploying as follows is directly tied into "telling your opponent". If you do one, then you are doing the other.
Also remember that if you misshaped, the unit never actually deployed, so it never actually left reserves in the first place.
It just goes into the subcategory of ongoing reserves.
The "start of the game" criteria is still being applied from the start of the game.

The issue is that you cannot declare one and then do the other.






Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 17:57:38


Post by: AndrewC


Ceann wrote:
 AndrewC wrote:
Ceann wrote:

The rule for Deepstrike also states that when it is put into reserves you have the option to put it in Deep Strike reserves.
So you would again be able to declare which reserve you would be placing it in.
So you can declare whether it will walk on or whether it will deepstrike from ongoing reserves.
You however cannot pick one and then choose the other next turn.


Citation on that please.

In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Cheers

Andrew



The rule for deepstrike is an option WHEN the unit is being put into reserves, ongoing reserves is just another sub category of reserves just like deep strike is.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

If you choose to tell them, then you are using deep strike and they go into deep strike reserve and follow the rules for deep strike.
You are still following the rules for reserves, as it states. Ongoing reserves bypasses the roll.
Deepstrike tells you to refer to the rules for the roll for arrival, the rules for Reserves are presently telling you to use ongoing reserves, this however does not again mitigate "deploy as follows".
You are only told to refer to the rules for Reserves for the ROLL, not for the arrival/deployment. So in this circumstance you simply wouldn't roll and would proceed.

The deploying as follows is directly tied into "telling your opponent". If you do one, then you are doing the other.
Also remember that if you misshaped, the unit never actually deployed, so it never actually left reserves in the first place.
It just goes into the subcategory of ongoing reserves.
The "start of the game" criteria is still being applied from the start of the game.

The issue is that you cannot declare one and then do the other.



PMed so as not to derail the thread any further.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 18:17:54


Post by: Charistoph


AndrewC wrote:In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

It should be noted that aside from going in to it during the game and not rolling afterwards, Ongoing Reserves is noted as following all the rules of Reserves.

That having been said, there are several cases where it specifies both Reserves and Ongoing Reserves in the same sentence as if they were different, but that is only apply for needs of precedence.

For what its worth, the GW FAQ series does note that when a Deep Striking unit Mishaps, it can Deep Strike again, so long as it isn't a one-shot Deep Strike like the Necron's Veil of Darkness. This would require Ongoing Reserves to be a type of Reserves, as Deep Strike does not allow for being declared when putting it in to Ongoing Reserves, it only states for Reserves.

AndrewC wrote:However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Actually, this is part of the original question, how Reserves operates in connection with Deep Strike and Outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:
No, it isn't clear. You can't cherry pick one sentence and follow it verbatim. Prior to your model moves 6 we were told that we would be explained infantry.

Pot, meet microwave.

You are assuming I am cherry picking because you do not want me to be right. I am not cherry picking. I have been given one instruction for maximum distance in the Movement Phase. It is not restricted by Unit Type in any form at this point.

Ceann wrote:
Immediately after it states it applies to most models, not all models.

No, it states, "most creatures", not models. The sentence also does not extend that range or how that distance may be different. These are basic rules. Advanced rules come later. There are many things which affect the maximum distance a model may move in the Movement Phase from Unit Type, to Special Rules, to Terrain interaction.

You are jumping to conclusions that any movement distance is basic when this only gives you one maximum distance for movement in this section until we get to Terrain.

Ceann wrote:
Your argument is built upon this statement being a standard that applies to everything. I would argue that stating it applies to most models and stating that other movements would be discussed later is clearly stating otherwise.

Just stating that it will be covered later does not mean that it automatically includes it in to basic rules. If they were meant to be in basic rules, it would be stated point blank right there to use the Movement Distance listed in the Unit Type, or it would state which Unit Type had which Distance in this section. Those exceptions are specifically stated in a section outside of the Core Rules, which are the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
It does say basic rules apply to all models, it doesn't say infantry rules apply to all models. I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13.

But that does not mean we ignore page 13. We do not ignore basic rules without directive. Certain unit types tell us to ignore the basic rules regarding movement distance, but unless we are dealing with Terrain, the basic rules only give one single maximum distance.

In a few months time, this will be not but a cow's opinion, as the rules will change to use a stat on the Characteristic Profile.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 18:52:48


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
AndrewC wrote:In order to Deep Strike the models must start the game in reserves, and the declaration made at that time. Once the unit has come out of reserves there is no option to declare Deep Strike again. Ongoing reserves is not reserves, for example ongoing reserves does not roll to see if they arrive, they simply turn up next turn entering the board following the normal rules for Reserves. Please note the 'normal rules'. A case can be made that Deep Strike is not the normal rules for reserves.

It should be noted that aside from going in to it during the game and not rolling afterwards, Ongoing Reserves is noted as following all the rules of Reserves.

That having been said, there are several cases where it specifies both Reserves and Ongoing Reserves in the same sentence as if they were different, but that is only apply for needs of precedence.

For what its worth, the GW FAQ series does note that when a Deep Striking unit Mishaps, it can Deep Strike again, so long as it isn't a one-shot Deep Strike like the Necron's Veil of Darkness. This would require Ongoing Reserves to be a type of Reserves, as Deep Strike does not allow for being declared when putting it in to Ongoing Reserves, it only states for Reserves.

AndrewC wrote:However this is being taken off at a tangent to the original question. So I'll stop

Actually, this is part of the original question, how Reserves operates in connection with Deep Strike and Outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:
No, it isn't clear. You can't cherry pick one sentence and follow it verbatim. Prior to your model moves 6 we were told that we would be explained infantry.

Pot, meet microwave.

You are assuming I am cherry picking because you do not want me to be right. I am not cherry picking. I have been given one instruction for maximum distance in the Movement Phase. It is not restricted by Unit Type in any form at this point.

Ceann wrote:
Immediately after it states it applies to most models, not all models.

No, it states, "most creatures", not models. The sentence also does not extend that range or how that distance may be different. These are basic rules. Advanced rules come later. There are many things which affect the maximum distance a model may move in the Movement Phase from Unit Type, to Special Rules, to Terrain interaction.

You are jumping to conclusions that any movement distance is basic when this only gives you one maximum distance for movement in this section until we get to Terrain.

Ceann wrote:
Your argument is built upon this statement being a standard that applies to everything. I would argue that stating it applies to most models and stating that other movements would be discussed later is clearly stating otherwise.

Just stating that it will be covered later does not mean that it automatically includes it in to basic rules. If they were meant to be in basic rules, it would be stated point blank right there to use the Movement Distance listed in the Unit Type, or it would state which Unit Type had which Distance in this section. Those exceptions are specifically stated in a section outside of the Core Rules, which are the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
It does say basic rules apply to all models, it doesn't say infantry rules apply to all models. I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13.

But that does not mean we ignore page 13. We do not ignore basic rules without directive. Certain unit types tell us to ignore the basic rules regarding movement distance, but unless we are dealing with Terrain, the basic rules only give one single maximum distance.

In a few months time, this will be not but a cow's opinion, as the rules will change to use a stat on the Characteristic Profile.


They did not add these statements for fun.
We aren't ignoring page 13.
You are ignoring "for starters we will explain Infantry"
And "This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
And "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
And "Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section."

If they were advanced rules as you claim, then the statement about movement distance is irrelevant and they would move whatever distance is claimed by virtue of being an advanced rule, the statement would be unnecessary, yet it is included and bold.

We were told they would explain Infantry, they are now explaining Infantry models. This doesn't mean that an Infantry models movement is the standard.
If it was, again as you claim, then it would be state "all models" yet it doesn't, it also wouldn't state that it represents "most" which it does.
The explaining of Infantry and "models move 6" are directly connected to each other. Your point only holds true by discarding that connection.

There is no "standard" for shooting, the shooting phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for assaulting, the assault phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for the psychic phase, we follow the sequence.

But for some reason for movement you have this bizarre idea that it does possess a single numerical standard that nothing else does. Instead of just following the sequence for movement.
All movement values fit into the sequence of moving, just like all weapon profiles fit into the sequence of shooting or assaulting.

Your assumption falls out of line with the phase and sequence standards set by all of the other phases.
My interpretation does not, because I realize they are explaining Infantry models, not a standard.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 20:03:48


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


The rule for deepstrike is an option WHEN the unit is being put into reserves, ongoing reserves is just another sub category of reserves just like deep strike is.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."

If you choose to tell them, then you are using deep strike and they go into deep strike reserve and follow the rules for deep strike.
You are still following the rules for reserves, as it states. Ongoing reserves bypasses the roll.
Deepstrike tells you to refer to the rules for the roll for arrival, the rules for Reserves are presently telling you to use ongoing reserves, this however does not again mitigate "deploy as follows".
You are only told to refer to the rules for Reserves for the ROLL, not for the arrival/deployment. So in this circumstance you simply wouldn't roll and would proceed.

The deploying as follows is directly tied into "telling your opponent". If you do one, then you are doing the other.
Also remember that if you misshaped, the unit never actually deployed, so it never actually left reserves in the first place.
It just goes into the subcategory of ongoing reserves.
The "start of the game" criteria is still being applied from the start of the game.

The issue is that you cannot declare one and then do the other.


Merely announcing that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike does not actually take away the option to simply Move On From Reserves when it comes time to Roll For Reserves. The permission to Move On From Reserves is still fully available and no rule prevents it. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 22:17:04


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:They did not add these statements for fun.

Did I say anything about being added for fun? Do you know the difference between an explanation and an instruction/directive?

Ceann wrote:We aren't ignoring page 13.

Sure seems like you want to because, "I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13", indicates that anything in the Movement Phase can override anything on page 13.

Ceann wrote:You are ignoring "for starters we will explain Infantry"
And "This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
And "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
And "Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section."

For directions on how far I can move a model, yes, because they do not carry an instruction or a directive regarding anything. They provide an explanation as to certain purposes, but that is as far as it goes.

Does it tell you to look up in the unit type for distances? No.
Does it tell you to that other unit types may move at a different rate than Infantry? No.
Are methods and distances synonymous? No.
Are there are there other maximum distances spoken of in the Movement Phase? Yes. This is in regards to Terrain.
Can different methods of moving address Terrain? Yes. See Jet Packs for an example.
Are any other distance besides the base 6" and movement of Difficult Terrain mentioned in the Movement Phase? No.

Ceann wrote:If they were advanced rules as you claim, then the statement about movement distance is irrelevant and they would move whatever distance is claimed by virtue of being an advanced rule, the statement would be unnecessary, yet it is included and bold.

Or they are aware of it. There are many situations where examples and explanations provide references to advanced rules. They do not go over them there, because they are not part of the basic rules. Their instructions are provided in the advanced rules provided by Unit Type and/or Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:We were told they would explain Infantry, they are now explaining Infantry models. This doesn't mean that an Infantry models movement is the standard.
If it was, again as you claim, then it would be state "all models" yet it doesn't, it also wouldn't state that it represents "most" which it does.
The explaining of Infantry and "models move 6" are directly connected to each other. Your point only holds true by discarding that connection.

Can you provide a rule that is standard to Infantry that is not a basic rule?

Ceann wrote:There is no "standard" for shooting, the shooting phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for assaulting, the assault phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for the psychic phase, we follow the sequence.

Those sure sound like standards to me. And there are unit types which override every single one of those, except for the Psychic Phase. But the Psychic Phase requires the model to have at least one Special Rule to operate, so...

If you mean there is no stated "standard unit type" being presented for those three phases, you are correct. So what? Are Infantry the standard for basic rules or not? Their own rules state they follow all of them, so they are the standard in that manner. Not everything has to be as spelled out in every paragraph.

Ceann wrote:But for some reason for movement you have this bizarre idea that it does possess a single numerical standard that nothing else does. Instead of just following the sequence for movement.
All movement values fit into the sequence of moving, just like all weapon profiles fit into the sequence of shooting or assaulting.

The Shooting Sequence tells you "All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.".

Movement Distance says, "Models move up to 6 in the Movement Phase".

It does not state, "models may move up to the 6" or the movement listed in their unit type," (your claim) or "a basic move for any model... is to move forward a number of inches up to their Movement characteristic" (Fantasy Battles, 8th Edition).

Note the differences?

Ceann wrote:Your assumption falls out of line with the phase and sequence standards set by all of the other phases.
My interpretation does not, because I realize they are explaining Infantry models, not a standard.

My interpretation follows the written words as they pertain to the instructions provided. You are taking explanations and using them as instructions.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 22:54:14


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:They did not add these statements for fun.

Did I say anything about being added for fun? Do you know the difference between an explanation and an instruction/directive?

Ceann wrote:We aren't ignoring page 13.

Sure seems like you want to because, "I am also quite sure that the movement section knows more about movement than page 13", indicates that anything in the Movement Phase can override anything on page 13.

Ceann wrote:You are ignoring "for starters we will explain Infantry"
And "This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
And "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance."
And "Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section."

For directions on how far I can move a model, yes, because they do not carry an instruction or a directive regarding anything. They provide an explanation as to certain purposes, but that is as far as it goes.

Does it tell you to look up in the unit type for distances? No.
Does it tell you to that other unit types may move at a different rate than Infantry? No.
Are methods and distances synonymous? No.
Are there are there other maximum distances spoken of in the Movement Phase? Yes. This is in regards to Terrain.
Can different methods of moving address Terrain? Yes. See Jet Packs for an example.
Are any other distance besides the base 6" and movement of Difficult Terrain mentioned in the Movement Phase? No.

Ceann wrote:If they were advanced rules as you claim, then the statement about movement distance is irrelevant and they would move whatever distance is claimed by virtue of being an advanced rule, the statement would be unnecessary, yet it is included and bold.

Or they are aware of it. There are many situations where examples and explanations provide references to advanced rules. They do not go over them there, because they are not part of the basic rules. Their instructions are provided in the advanced rules provided by Unit Type and/or Special Rules.

Ceann wrote:We were told they would explain Infantry, they are now explaining Infantry models. This doesn't mean that an Infantry models movement is the standard.
If it was, again as you claim, then it would be state "all models" yet it doesn't, it also wouldn't state that it represents "most" which it does.
The explaining of Infantry and "models move 6" are directly connected to each other. Your point only holds true by discarding that connection.

Can you provide a rule that is standard to Infantry that is not a basic rule?

Ceann wrote:There is no "standard" for shooting, the shooting phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for assaulting, the assault phase lines out the sequence, we follow the sequence.
There is no "standard" for the psychic phase, we follow the sequence.

Those sure sound like standards to me. And there are unit types which override every single one of those, except for the Psychic Phase. But the Psychic Phase requires the model to have at least one Special Rule to operate, so...

If you mean there is no stated "standard unit type" being presented for those three phases, you are correct. So what? Are Infantry the standard for basic rules or not? Their own rules state they follow all of them, so they are the standard in that manner. Not everything has to be as spelled out in every paragraph.

Ceann wrote:But for some reason for movement you have this bizarre idea that it does possess a single numerical standard that nothing else does. Instead of just following the sequence for movement.
All movement values fit into the sequence of moving, just like all weapon profiles fit into the sequence of shooting or assaulting.

The Shooting Sequence tells you "All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot. A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot.".

Movement Distance says, "Models move up to 6 in the Movement Phase".

It does not state, "models may move up to the 6" or the movement listed in their unit type," (your claim) or "a basic move for any model... is to move forward a number of inches up to their Movement characteristic" (Fantasy Battles, 8th Edition).

Note the differences?

Ceann wrote:Your assumption falls out of line with the phase and sequence standards set by all of the other phases.
My interpretation does not, because I realize they are explaining Infantry models, not a standard.

My interpretation follows the written words as they pertain to the instructions provided. You are taking explanations and using them as instructions.



I do know the difference. I also know the difference between the rules for a unit type and the basic rules.
We were told we were going to be explained Infantry and we have been explained Infantry.
You can't lean on page 13 because there is no basic vs basic precedence.

Models move up to 6" is INVALIDATED as a standard by "This represents most creatures"

If it doesn't represent ALL, then it isn't the standard.
The models move statement is invalided twice, be being called an explanation prior to being explained and having stated "it represents most".

My calvary is just one of the models not represented by "most". It's 12" movement is the maximum movement it has.
Just like a laspistol has a maximum range different from a lasgun.

These two statements seem a lot more similiar than your "models move up to 6".
Notice they both state ALL, does "models move up to 6" state all? Nope. 100% Nope.

In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot


Note the differences?

Infantry have no innate special rules, so they only use the basic rules.
The issue is that you wish for the basic rules to have preset values, which they dont.
The basic rules are the phases and the sequences. Special rules break rules of phases and sequences and infantry have none of those.
You are falsely attributing "advanced" rules based on the basic rules of other unit types instead the inherent special rules they have.

If we took a Beast unit and took away Fleet from it, then it would follow all the basic rules exactly like an Infantry model would.
It would move the same "up to its maximum value" it would shoot the same, assault the same, have morale the same.

"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
AKA "Most models move at a reasonable pace, up to 6" in the movement phase"

Most is not a standard.
All is a standard.

These are standards.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot


This is not.
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Ex. From Shooting...

Weapon - Maximum Range
Laspistol - 12"
Boltgun - 24"
Autocannon - 48"

Would compare to....

Movement - Maximum Range
Infantry - 6"
Calvary - 12"
Beast - 12"


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/29 23:04:25


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:

Most is not a standard.
All is a standard.


Ceann,

what definition of 'standard' are you applying?

Dictionary - "used or accepted as normal or average"


You are confusing 'standard' with 'universal'.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 00:35:28


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
I do know the difference. I also know the difference between the rules for a unit type and the basic rules.

But aren't you the one saying that unit type rules are basic rules?

Ceann wrote:
We were told we were going to be explained Infantry and we have been explained Infantry.
You can't lean on page 13 because there is no basic vs basic precedence.

There actually is.

Ceann wrote:
Models move up to 6" is INVALIDATED as a standard by "This represents most creatures"

If it is invalidated, then how far does a Monstrous Creature move? Artillery?

Ceann wrote:
If it doesn't represent ALL, then it isn't the standard.
The models move statement is invalided twice, be being called an explanation prior to being explained and having stated "it represents most".

As with all basic rules, it represents all, until stated otherwise. Where does it actually allow a Movement Distance is different from 6", Movement Phase or Unit Types?

Ceann wrote:
My calvary is just one of the models not represented by "most". It's 12" movement is the maximum movement it has.
Just like a laspistol has a maximum range different from a lasgun.

No, not "just like". One is overriden by a unit type, the other has a different Profile. A better difference would be between the a Stormbolter's Assault Type and a Boltgun's Rapid Fire type.

Ceann wrote:
These two statements seem a lot more similiar than your "models move up to 6".
Notice they both state ALL, does "models move up to 6" state all? Nope. 100% Nope.

Which two statements? Your method of addressing leaves this pronoun without reference.

No, it doesn't state "all models move up to 6". But it doesn't leave any room in the Movement Phase to be anything more, either. It isn't until we look at specific Unit Types that we see any differences. Are Unit Types basic rules or advanced rules?

Ceann wrote:
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot


Note the differences?

How do we determine their maximum movement distance? Their Profile, which is basic, or their Type, which is advanced?

Ceann wrote:
Infantry have no innate special rules, so they only use the basic rules.
The issue is that you wish for the basic rules to have preset values, which they dont.
The basic rules are the phases and the sequences. Special rules break rules of phases and sequences and infantry have none of those.
You are falsely attributing "advanced" rules based on the basic rules of other unit types instead the inherent special rules they have.

Some basic rules have preset values, some do not. Strength vs Toughness helps us determine a value for Wounding, but nothing is set based on Strength alone (yet).

There is only one Movement Distance value outside of Difficult Terrain mentioned in the Movement Phase, and it does not tell us to refer to a Unit Type or a Profile to determine this. That is the basic rules. Infantry have no innate special rules, so all their rules are basic rules. Infantry move the amount given in the Movement Phase, as do Monstrous Creatures. Why? Because those are the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
If we took a Beast unit and took away Fleet from it, then it would follow all the basic rules exactly like an Infantry model would.
It would move the same "up to its maximum value" it would shoot the same, assault the same, have morale the same.

No, it could, or it might not. If the Beast went 7-12" it would be moving beyond the Movement Distance allowed in the basic Movement Phase rules.

Ceann wrote:
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
AKA "Most models move at a reasonable pace, up to 6" in the movement phase"

Most is not a standard.
All is a standard.

Most is a standard. It is used to describe a probability. If I took a random sampling of models of several tables, those that were not moving through Terrain would most likely be moving 6" at the most. In addition, you are also forgetting the fact that this sentence is also considering how Difficult Terrain influences the situation.

Even then, this statement about "most creatures" is not an instruction, but an explanation. It doesn't tell you to look at other places for a different Movement Distances.

Ceann wrote:
These are standards.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot


This is not.
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Again, if moving 6" is not the standard, how far can an Artillery unit or Monstrous Creature move?

Ceann wrote:
Ex. From Shooting...

Weapon - Maximum Range
Laspistol - 12"
Boltgun - 24"
Autocannon - 48"

Would compare to....

Movement - Maximum Range
Infantry - 6"
Calvary - 12"
Beast - 12"

No, it would not. Range is part of a Weapon's Profile. Movement Distance is not part of a unit's profile, but of its Type, and Type is in addition to the model profile, not part of the model profile.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 01:07:06


Post by: col_impact


This thread is getting de-railed by a discussion about Eternity Gate which is expressly what the OP forbid.

 Happyjew wrote:
If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?

This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.


I suggest we get back to the actual discussion about whether or not a player who declares a unit to be Deep Striking can change how they come on.

Now many of you may have RAI arguments that the player cannot change how they come on, but RAW says otherwise.


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 01:24:43


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
I do know the difference. I also know the difference between the rules for a unit type and the basic rules.

But aren't you the one saying that unit type rules are basic rules?

Ceann wrote:
We were told we were going to be explained Infantry and we have been explained Infantry.
You can't lean on page 13 because there is no basic vs basic precedence.

There actually is.

Ceann wrote:
Models move up to 6" is INVALIDATED as a standard by "This represents most creatures"

If it is invalidated, then how far does a Monstrous Creature move? Artillery?

Ceann wrote:
If it doesn't represent ALL, then it isn't the standard.
The models move statement is invalided twice, be being called an explanation prior to being explained and having stated "it represents most".

As with all basic rules, it represents all, until stated otherwise. Where does it actually allow a Movement Distance is different from 6", Movement Phase or Unit Types?

Ceann wrote:
My calvary is just one of the models not represented by "most". It's 12" movement is the maximum movement it has.
Just like a laspistol has a maximum range different from a lasgun.

No, not "just like". One is overriden by a unit type, the other has a different Profile. A better difference would be between the a Stormbolter's Assault Type and a Boltgun's Rapid Fire type.

Ceann wrote:
These two statements seem a lot more similiar than your "models move up to 6".
Notice they both state ALL, does "models move up to 6" state all? Nope. 100% Nope.

Which two statements? Your method of addressing leaves this pronoun without reference.

No, it doesn't state "all models move up to 6". But it doesn't leave any room in the Movement Phase to be anything more, either. It isn't until we look at specific Unit Types that we see any differences. Are Unit Types basic rules or advanced rules?

Ceann wrote:
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot


Note the differences?

How do we determine their maximum movement distance? Their Profile, which is basic, or their Type, which is advanced?

Ceann wrote:
Infantry have no innate special rules, so they only use the basic rules.
The issue is that you wish for the basic rules to have preset values, which they dont.
The basic rules are the phases and the sequences. Special rules break rules of phases and sequences and infantry have none of those.
You are falsely attributing "advanced" rules based on the basic rules of other unit types instead the inherent special rules they have.

Some basic rules have preset values, some do not. Strength vs Toughness helps us determine a value for Wounding, but nothing is set based on Strength alone (yet).

There is only one Movement Distance value outside of Difficult Terrain mentioned in the Movement Phase, and it does not tell us to refer to a Unit Type or a Profile to determine this. That is the basic rules. Infantry have no innate special rules, so all their rules are basic rules. Infantry move the amount given in the Movement Phase, as do Monstrous Creatures. Why? Because those are the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
If we took a Beast unit and took away Fleet from it, then it would follow all the basic rules exactly like an Infantry model would.
It would move the same "up to its maximum value" it would shoot the same, assault the same, have morale the same.

No, it could, or it might not. If the Beast went 7-12" it would be moving beyond the Movement Distance allowed in the basic Movement Phase rules.

Ceann wrote:
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"
AKA "Most models move at a reasonable pace, up to 6" in the movement phase"

Most is not a standard.
All is a standard.

Most is a standard. It is used to describe a probability. If I took a random sampling of models of several tables, those that were not moving through Terrain would most likely be moving 6" at the most. In addition, you are also forgetting the fact that this sentence is also considering how Difficult Terrain influences the situation.

Even then, this statement about "most creatures" is not an instruction, but an explanation. It doesn't tell you to look at other places for a different Movement Distances.

Ceann wrote:
These are standards.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot


This is not.
"Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase. This represents most creatures moving at a reasonable pace"

Again, if moving 6" is not the standard, how far can an Artillery unit or Monstrous Creature move?

Ceann wrote:
Ex. From Shooting...

Weapon - Maximum Range
Laspistol - 12"
Boltgun - 24"
Autocannon - 48"

Would compare to....

Movement - Maximum Range
Infantry - 6"
Calvary - 12"
Beast - 12"

No, it would not. Range is part of a Weapon's Profile. Movement Distance is not part of a unit's profile, but of its Type, and Type is in addition to the model profile, not part of the model profile.


I am saying that the rules that units have, for "movement, shooting, assault and morale" are the basic rules for that type and that the special rules they have are the special rules.
Assault type for a weapon is no more of an "advanced rule" than pistol type. They each have their own attributes that they use within the phases.

There is not, again, if we took a Beast and took fleet away from it, it would match the criteria for page 13 "these are all the rules you need to play beasts" if the phrase were transposed. Advanced rules are indicative of special rules, which Infantry do not innately have. That is why that statement exists.

A MC states in it's profile that it uses the rules for the Infantry type, not the basic rules, the Infantry type.
Which actually coincides with us being told that the rules for Infantry type would be "explained" in the movement section.
Do you have a particular piece of Artillery in mind? IIRC Artillery don't actually move at all, the Infantry/Crew in the unit move the artillery, if they all die then it cannot move.

It does not represent all, because there is a rule that states it represents all, the one that states they can move their maximum value.
The 6" move is the Infantry type movement, as was explained, this is also collaborated by MC's referencing the Infantry type rules.

Except it isn't overidden. One is the Infantry type, and the others are their own type.
Note that Jetpack Units can "move as models of their type" if they were an Infantry type then it would be 6", if they were a Jump Beast it would be 12".

Unit types contain the basic values and special rules for their type.
I don't see you arguing that any non stormbolter is advanced, or non lascannon is advanced, or non battlecannon is advanced or non bolt pistol is advanced etc etc.
Those are all listed as examples of weapons for their type in the shooting section and you have no issue with other weapons.
But they use Infantry as the example for movement and, woah burn the house down, for moving 12". It is sort of a double standard.

How do we determine their maximum movement? The same way we determine how far a weapon can shoot or how many shots, check its profile.
You cannot assert that they are advanced still while simultaneously moving away from 6" to talk about unit types, unless your acknowledging the possibility that statement is not as ironclad as you think. The advanced rules that a Beast type has, is Fleet, not moves 12". In order to be advanced it has to be breaking a rule, it is not breaking the Infantry move 6" because it isn't Infantry, it is a Beast. It is permitted by the movement phase rule to move 12", so it isn't breaking any rule.

MC's move 6" because their profile states to use the Infantry type rules, not the "standard movement rule".
Again, Infantry were explained to us. Just because the others weren't used in the explanation doesn't mean they adhere to Infantry standards.
They couldn't possibly explain 12 or however many unit types their are all at once in the explanation of movement. They demonstrated the process of the movement phase, using Infantry type rules.

My Beast moving 7-12" is simply just not one of "most" creatures, that is all. So it isn't breaking any rule.

We are told in the Movement Phase, where to look, the page numbers are included in the physical book.

"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot"

These are indeed standards, they apply to ALL of a category, uniformly.
Artillery and MC are same answers as above.

Unit Type is discussed under models and units, along with vehicle characteristics. Making Unit Type a basic rule in and of itself.
You are are again attributing the "apply to specific models" from BvA to construe Unit Type as advanced, while what it is actually telling you is that Unit types have advanced rules attached to them.
Such as Fleet for Beast, not that the Unit Types themselves are advanced.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 01:29:44


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
This thread is getting de-railed by a discussion about Eternity Gate which is expressly what the OP forbid.

 Happyjew wrote:
If I put a unit with Deep Strike (or Outflank) in Reserves, and declare them to be Deep Striking (or Outflanking), are you allowed to change how they come on? Can they choose to walk on as normal after they have sat in Reserves for a turn or 2? Or are they required to come in via the method you have told your opponent?

This is a slight off-shoot of the previous thread regarding the Monolith portal and Deep Strike Reserves, and while it may have some bearing on that discussion, it was locked for a reason. So please leave that topic at the door.


I suggest we get back to the actual discussion about whether or not a player who declares a unit to be Deep Striking can change how they come on.

Now many of you may have RAI arguments that the player cannot change how they come on, but RAW says otherwise.


The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


We are trying to establish precedence in order to further discuss the issue Col.
If you have a problem with that then I am sorry that you aren't following the value of that conversation as it will ultimately tie into the question at hand.
You see there is this rule for the forums where you have to provide your premise.
You have no established premise to ignore following the rest of the Deep Strike rules, you just assume you have it.
You have been asked for it multiple times by multiple people and you never provided a premise or rule location allowing you to use part of a rule.
Multiple people have explained how your argument is incorrect, yet you keep asserting it is and keep repeating it.

So until you provide your premise you are actually not doing anything other than repeating your argument over and over, which adds no value.
Please provide your premise that allows you to use part of a rule.
Charistoph and I at least are trying to come to a precedence conclusion in order to further address the question.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 01:42:59


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


We are trying to establish precedence in order to further discuss the issue Col.
If you have a problem with that then I am sorry that you aren't following the value of that conversation as it will ultimately tie into the question at hand.
You see there is this rule for the forums where you have to provide your premise.
You have no established premise to ignore following the rest of the Deep Strike rules, you just assume you have it.
You have been asked for it multiple times by multiple people and you never provided a premise or rule location allowing you to use part of a rule.
Multiple people have explained how your argument is incorrect, yet you keep asserting it is and keep repeating it.

So until you provide your premise you are actually not doing anything other than repeating your argument over and over, which adds no value.
Please provide your premise that allows you to use part of a rule.
Charistoph and I at least are trying to come to a precedence conclusion in order to further address the question.



The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 02:00:04


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


We are trying to establish precedence in order to further discuss the issue Col.
If you have a problem with that then I am sorry that you aren't following the value of that conversation as it will ultimately tie into the question at hand.
You see there is this rule for the forums where you have to provide your premise.
You have no established premise to ignore following the rest of the Deep Strike rules, you just assume you have it.
You have been asked for it multiple times by multiple people and you never provided a premise or rule location allowing you to use part of a rule.
Multiple people have explained how your argument is incorrect, yet you keep asserting it is and keep repeating it.

So until you provide your premise you are actually not doing anything other than repeating your argument over and over, which adds no value.
Please provide your premise that allows you to use part of a rule.
Charistoph and I at least are trying to come to a precedence conclusion in order to further address the question.



The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

You cannot choose to not "roll for the arrival" because as soon as you begin making reserve rolls it requires you to do so, since they are in deep strike reserve.
Once you start your turn and roll for reserves, it is in the state of deep strike reserve and as such it immediately requests you make a deep strike reserve roll.
If you make the roll "as specified in the rules for reserves" but then you must "deploy them as follows".
The roll you are attempting to use to walk onto the board, is being using for the deep strike roll, whether you wish it to be or not.
Deep strike is not giving you a normal reserve roll, it is giving you a deep strike reserve roll.

So again, provide your premise that you allowed to ignore the Deep Strike rules.
I have asked for it before and so have others.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 02:20:14


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"

You cannot choose to not "roll for the arrival" because as soon as you begin making reserve rolls it requires you to do so, since they are in deep strike reserve.
Once you start your turn and roll for reserves, it is in the state of deep strike reserve and as such it immediately requests you make a deep strike reserve roll.
If you make the roll "as specified in the rules for reserves" but then you must "deploy them as follows".
The roll you are attempting to use to walk onto the board, is being using for the deep strike roll, whether you wish it to be or not.
Deep strike is not giving you a normal reserve roll, it is giving you a deep strike reserve roll.

So again, provide your premise that you allowed to ignore the Deep Strike rules.
I have asked for it before and so have others.



The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves. The permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 02:21:05


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
I am saying that the rules that units have, for "movement, shooting, assault and morale" are the basic rules for that type and that the special rules they have are the special rules.
Assault type for a weapon is no more of an "advanced rule" than pistol type. They each have their own attributes that they use within the phases.

Basic for that type and basic for that game are not synonymous. In fact, in any of the unit types with a movement distance over 6", it is never noted as basic. This is a construct entirely made by you.

Ceann wrote:
There is not, again, if we took a Beast and took fleet away from it, it would match the criteria for page 13 "these are all the rules you need to play beasts" if the phrase were transposed. Advanced rules are indicative of special rules, which Infantry do not innately have. That is why that statement exists.

But page 13 does not transpose that phrase to that. Being a Beast involves advanced rules. One of them is movement distance.

Special Rules via unusual skills are only one part of the domain of advanced rules. Something you seem to ignore repeatedly.

Ceann wrote:
A MC states in it's profile that it uses the rules for the Infantry type, not the basic rules, the Infantry type.
Which actually coincides with us being told that the rules for Infantry type would be "explained" in the movement section.

Actually is says it uses many of the Infantry rules. Movement Distance is not one it says it uses. So, what is the maximum movement distance of a Monstrous Creature if it is not listed here?

Ceann wrote:
Do you have a particular piece of Artillery in mind? IIRC Artillery don't actually move at all, the Infantry/Crew in the unit move the artillery, if they all die then it cannot move.

Then you fail at understanding this unit type nor have ever looked one up. Artillery models do move. They do not have Infantry with them unless an IC joins them. "Artillery units consist of a number of crew models and the gun models themselves." If you look up one of the Artillery units, you will find that they are all classified as Artillery. The gun models require crew models to move.

Their Movement Phase rules do not provide any information or reference to distance. It is all about the requirement of having one crew model per gun model in order to move. That's it.

Ceann wrote:
It does not represent all, because there is a rule that states it represents all, the one that states they can move their maximum value.
The 6" move is the Infantry type movement, as was explained, this is also collaborated by MC's referencing the Infantry type rules.

That is only your assumption. If we go by your earlier consideration, that we are reading this document for the first time, then we do not know that other Unit Types will provide a greater Movement Distance. The Movement Phase never references this possibility, much less directs to the Unit Type for a different Movement Distance.

At the point of Movement Distance, 6" is all we have. At the end of the Movement Phase, we have 6" outside of Difficult Terrain, and pick the highest of 2D6 for inside of Difficult Terrain. That is it. If you can provide where it actually directs us to Unit Types to learn about different Movement Distances, then please present it.

It is only once we reach the Bike Unit Type that we find that movement distances greater than 6" can be had.

Ceann wrote:
Except it isn't overidden. One is the Infantry type, and the others are their own type.
Note that Jetpack Units can "move as models of their type" if they were an Infantry type then it would be 6", if they were a Jump Beast it would be 12".

Read about Thrust in the Jet Pack rules, because that is also in there. That is a different "how", for reference.

Profile of a model is: BS, WS, S, T, I, A, Ld, Sv.
Profile of a Weapon is: (sometimes Mode), Range, S, AP, and Type.

Range is part of a Weapon's profile. Movement Distance is not part of a model's profile.

Ceann wrote:
Unit types contain the basic values and special rules for their type.

I'm going to need a quote where it states, "unit types contain the basic values... for their type". You have never once quoted the BRB on it, and after all this time I have to assume it is a complete construct by you. You are making an extrapolation based on one reading of Basic rules definition and ignoring the defined bounds of advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
I don't see you arguing that any non stormbolter is advanced, or non lascannon is advanced, or non battlecannon is advanced or non bolt pistol is advanced etc etc.
Those are all listed as examples of weapons for their type in the shooting section and you have no issue with other weapons.
But they use Infantry as the example for movement and, woah burn the house down, for moving 12". It is sort of a double standard.

Advanced rules apply to a specific type of model because they have a special kind of weapon, such as a boltgun. Boltguns are as basic as you get in the SM Codex, yet, it is referred to as advanced rules here.

Ceann wrote:
How do we determine their maximum movement? The same way we determine how far a weapon can shoot or how many shots, check its profile.

Movement is not noted as part of a model's profile. See above.

Ceann wrote:
You cannot assert that they are advanced still while simultaneously moving away from 6" to talk about unit types, unless your acknowledging the possibility that statement is not as ironclad as you think. The advanced rules that a Beast type has, is Fleet, not moves 12". In order to be advanced it has to be breaking a rule, it is not breaking the Infantry move 6" because it isn't Infantry, it is a Beast. It is permitted by the movement phase rule to move 12", so it isn't breaking any rule.

I can call their movement distance advanced because it is not included in their profile and goes beyond the distance provided in the bounds of the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
MC's move 6" because their profile states to use the Infantry type rules, not the "standard movement rule".
Again, Infantry were explained to us. Just because the others weren't used in the explanation doesn't mean they adhere to Infantry standards.
They couldn't possibly explain 12 or however many unit types their are all at once in the explanation of movement. They demonstrated the process of the movement phase, using Infantry type rules.

Why not? It takes two lines to do it in the Unit Type. Considering the fact that only 3 Unit Types actually follow that distance without resorting to even more special rules (i.e. Walker, Heavy).

It could have easily been stated in that phrase starting Movement Distance to just refer to the Unit Type for its maximum distance. But they didn't. They set it at a specific value and did not tell you to go somewhere else to see if it's Unit Type gives you more.

Ceann wrote:
My Beast moving 7-12" is simply just not one of "most" creatures, that is all. So it isn't breaking any rule.

Where did Movement Distance tell you to look at its Unit Type for that information?

Ceann wrote:
We are told in the Movement Phase, where to look, the page numbers are included in the physical book.

"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Unit Type is not mentioned here.

Ceann wrote:
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot"

Part of its profile, see above.

Ceann wrote:
Unit Type is discussed under models and units, along with vehicle characteristics. Making Unit Type a basic rule in and of itself.
You are are again attributing the "apply to specific models" from BvA to construe Unit Type as advanced, while what it is actually telling you is that Unit types have advanced rules attached to them.
Such as Fleet for Beast, not that the Unit Types themselves are advanced.

Unit Types are not part of the profile, though.

No, I'm attributing Unit Type to be advance rules due to advanced rules apply to specific types of models because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). Special Rules are actually referred to as "unusual skills", which are also advanced rules.

You seem afraid of this sentence as being a defining statement. One that sets the bounds of what is and is not an advanced rule. Is it because you must so badly have Unit Type rules not listed under Special Rules be basic rules? Why?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 03:45:07


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
Ceann wrote:
I am saying that the rules that units have, for "movement, shooting, assault and morale" are the basic rules for that type and that the special rules they have are the special rules.
Assault type for a weapon is no more of an "advanced rule" than pistol type. They each have their own attributes that they use within the phases.

Basic for that type and basic for that game are not synonymous. In fact, in any of the unit types with a movement distance over 6", it is never noted as basic. This is a construct entirely made by you.

Ceann wrote:
There is not, again, if we took a Beast and took fleet away from it, it would match the criteria for page 13 "these are all the rules you need to play beasts" if the phrase were transposed. Advanced rules are indicative of special rules, which Infantry do not innately have. That is why that statement exists.

But page 13 does not transpose that phrase to that. Being a Beast involves advanced rules. One of them is movement distance.

Special Rules via unusual skills are only one part of the domain of advanced rules. Something you seem to ignore repeatedly.

Ceann wrote:
A MC states in it's profile that it uses the rules for the Infantry type, not the basic rules, the Infantry type.
Which actually coincides with us being told that the rules for Infantry type would be "explained" in the movement section.

Actually is says it uses many of the Infantry rules. Movement Distance is not one it says it uses. So, what is the maximum movement distance of a Monstrous Creature if it is not listed here?

Ceann wrote:
Do you have a particular piece of Artillery in mind? IIRC Artillery don't actually move at all, the Infantry/Crew in the unit move the artillery, if they all die then it cannot move.

Then you fail at understanding this unit type nor have ever looked one up. Artillery models do move. They do not have Infantry with them unless an IC joins them. "Artillery units consist of a number of crew models and the gun models themselves." If you look up one of the Artillery units, you will find that they are all classified as Artillery. The gun models require crew models to move.

Their Movement Phase rules do not provide any information or reference to distance. It is all about the requirement of having one crew model per gun model in order to move. That's it.

Ceann wrote:
It does not represent all, because there is a rule that states it represents all, the one that states they can move their maximum value.
The 6" move is the Infantry type movement, as was explained, this is also collaborated by MC's referencing the Infantry type rules.

That is only your assumption. If we go by your earlier consideration, that we are reading this document for the first time, then we do not know that other Unit Types will provide a greater Movement Distance. The Movement Phase never references this possibility, much less directs to the Unit Type for a different Movement Distance.

At the point of Movement Distance, 6" is all we have. At the end of the Movement Phase, we have 6" outside of Difficult Terrain, and pick the highest of 2D6 for inside of Difficult Terrain. That is it. If you can provide where it actually directs us to Unit Types to learn about different Movement Distances, then please present it.

It is only once we reach the Bike Unit Type that we find that movement distances greater than 6" can be had.

Ceann wrote:
Except it isn't overidden. One is the Infantry type, and the others are their own type.
Note that Jetpack Units can "move as models of their type" if they were an Infantry type then it would be 6", if they were a Jump Beast it would be 12".

Read about Thrust in the Jet Pack rules, because that is also in there. That is a different "how", for reference.

Profile of a model is: BS, WS, S, T, I, A, Ld, Sv.
Profile of a Weapon is: (sometimes Mode), Range, S, AP, and Type.

Range is part of a Weapon's profile. Movement Distance is not part of a model's profile.

Ceann wrote:
Unit types contain the basic values and special rules for their type.

I'm going to need a quote where it states, "unit types contain the basic values... for their type". You have never once quoted the BRB on it, and after all this time I have to assume it is a complete construct by you. You are making an extrapolation based on one reading of Basic rules definition and ignoring the defined bounds of advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:
I don't see you arguing that any non stormbolter is advanced, or non lascannon is advanced, or non battlecannon is advanced or non bolt pistol is advanced etc etc.
Those are all listed as examples of weapons for their type in the shooting section and you have no issue with other weapons.
But they use Infantry as the example for movement and, woah burn the house down, for moving 12". It is sort of a double standard.

Advanced rules apply to a specific type of model because they have a special kind of weapon, such as a boltgun. Boltguns are as basic as you get in the SM Codex, yet, it is referred to as advanced rules here.

Ceann wrote:
How do we determine their maximum movement? The same way we determine how far a weapon can shoot or how many shots, check its profile.

Movement is not noted as part of a model's profile. See above.

Ceann wrote:
You cannot assert that they are advanced still while simultaneously moving away from 6" to talk about unit types, unless your acknowledging the possibility that statement is not as ironclad as you think. The advanced rules that a Beast type has, is Fleet, not moves 12". In order to be advanced it has to be breaking a rule, it is not breaking the Infantry move 6" because it isn't Infantry, it is a Beast. It is permitted by the movement phase rule to move 12", so it isn't breaking any rule.

I can call their movement distance advanced because it is not included in their profile and goes beyond the distance provided in the bounds of the basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
MC's move 6" because their profile states to use the Infantry type rules, not the "standard movement rule".
Again, Infantry were explained to us. Just because the others weren't used in the explanation doesn't mean they adhere to Infantry standards.
They couldn't possibly explain 12 or however many unit types their are all at once in the explanation of movement. They demonstrated the process of the movement phase, using Infantry type rules.

Why not? It takes two lines to do it in the Unit Type. Considering the fact that only 3 Unit Types actually follow that distance without resorting to even more special rules (i.e. Walker, Heavy).

It could have easily been stated in that phrase starting Movement Distance to just refer to the Unit Type for its maximum distance. But they didn't. They set it at a specific value and did not tell you to go somewhere else to see if it's Unit Type gives you more.

Ceann wrote:
My Beast moving 7-12" is simply just not one of "most" creatures, that is all. So it isn't breaking any rule.

Where did Movement Distance tell you to look at its Unit Type for that information?

Ceann wrote:
We are told in the Movement Phase, where to look, the page numbers are included in the physical book.

"In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

Unit Type is not mentioned here.

Ceann wrote:
All weapons have a maximum range, which is the furthest distance they can shoot"

Part of its profile, see above.

Ceann wrote:
Unit Type is discussed under models and units, along with vehicle characteristics. Making Unit Type a basic rule in and of itself.
You are are again attributing the "apply to specific models" from BvA to construe Unit Type as advanced, while what it is actually telling you is that Unit types have advanced rules attached to them.
Such as Fleet for Beast, not that the Unit Types themselves are advanced.

Unit Types are not part of the profile, though.

No, I'm attributing Unit Type to be advance rules due to advanced rules apply to specific types of models because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). Special Rules are actually referred to as "unusual skills", which are also advanced rules.

You seem afraid of this sentence as being a defining statement. One that sets the bounds of what is and is not an advanced rule. Is it because you must so badly have Unit Type rules not listed under Special Rules be basic rules? Why?


Any movement type more than 6" is never noted as advanced, this is a construct entirely made by you.

Not discussing BvA here.

It also doesn't say that it doesn't use Movement Distance, so clearly it can.

Artillery models do not move, if I use a flamer and kill the entire crew, the artillery piece will sit there, unable to move.
They are not all classified as Artillery, for example if you take the Thunderfire Cannon, if you destroy the cannon the Techmarine is still an IC.
The crew are Infantry or whatever regardless of being attached to the Artillery.
In the reverse if you kill the Techmarine the cannon becomes a decoration.
Then you fail at understanding the difference between models and units, as is evidenced by attributing advanced rules for specific models to unit types.
Artillery UNITS move, Artillery MODELS do not move.

It is not my assumption, we were told Infantry would be explained, and they were. You cannot prove that is not the case.
The movement phase does reference this I have quoted it 1000x times and it is one of the things you disregard, I can practically recite it by memory.

THE MOVEMENT PHASE
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility
, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section (pg61-71).
Looks like it is directing me to unit types to find out about greater mobility.
I am now eagerly awaiting the explanation of Infantry that it just told me I would get.

I have no issues with Thrust Move. It is used in the assault phase by this unit type. Charge moves reference the movement phase rules, so does this.

CHARACTERISTIC PROFILES
- Other Important Information
In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.
- Vehicle Characteristics
In the Warhammer 40,000 universe, there are many tanks, war machines and other combat vehicles, both human-built and alien.
Vehicle characteristics are described in the vehicles section.

Physical BRB includes page number references here as well.
A Unit Type is defined as pertaining to something a model will have in addition to its characteristics.
This makes unit types basic rules.

I need you to quote where it states "Models move 6" is the standard and only movement value" You have never once quoted the BRB on it, and after all this time I have to assume it is a complete construct by you. You are making an extrapolation based on one reading of Basic rules definition and ignoring the defined bounds of advanced rules. Such as specific models, vs Units.

Your BvA interpretation is flawed because you are correlating models to units on your own.

Movement is part of its Unit Type which is an addition its profile per Models and Units.

It doesn't go beyond the distance provided. We are told to reference unit types in Models and Units and told again in The Movement Phase.
You are extrapolating the explanation of Infantry to a standard for all models.

Why not? I didn't write the book. Probably because they didn't want to add special rules into Core Rules and make the phases convoluted.
They did tell us to reference the Unit Type section and that they had greater mobility...


If you could avoid the tangents, unless you are willing to entertain that your "models move up to 6" isn't absolute then other questions are meaningless about Unit Types.
As until that changes you will have it as a premise for any other discussion.




Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 13:27:02


Post by: Happyjew


This thread apears to be getting off topic. Unless people wish to discuss the question posed, which has nothing to do with basic rules vs advanced rules, I'm going to ask for a thread lock.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 13:30:59


Post by: Ceann


 Happyjew wrote:
This thread apears to be getting off topic. Unless people wish to discuss the question posed, which has nothing to do with basic rules vs advanced rules, I'm going to ask for a thread lock.


I will just PM him.

As for deepstrike/outflank consensus I think we have it.
Col has been requested to supply a rule that allows him to ignore following the rest of the rules for deep strike, aside from that it seems like most agree that you can't use part of a rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 15:57:29


Post by: Charistoph


Ceann wrote:
Any movement type more than 6" is never noted as advanced, this is a construct entirely made by you.

It is because it is not basic and one of the noted reasons why some units are not Infantry models. Artillery and Monstrous Creatures do not mention movement. Why? Because they follow the basic rules for Movement, just like Infantry.

Ceann wrote:
Not discussing BvA here.

Then be more clear, I do not have the dead tree version. I guess you forgot that.

Ceann wrote:
It also doesn't say that it doesn't use Movement Distance, so clearly it can.

Oh, so Infantry movement IS the standard? It's the only way this works.

Ceann wrote:
Artillery models do not move, if I use a flamer and kill the entire crew, the artillery piece will sit there, unable to move.
They are not all classified as Artillery, for example if you take the Thunderfire Cannon, if you destroy the cannon the Techmarine is still an IC.
The crew are Infantry or whatever regardless of being attached to the Artillery.
In the reverse if you kill the Techmarine the cannon becomes a decoration.
Then you fail at understanding the difference between models and units, as is evidenced by attributing advanced rules for specific models to unit types.
Artillery UNITS move, Artillery MODELS do not move.

Incorrect. The gretchin in the Mek Guns unit, the Techmarine Gunner in the Thunderfire Cannon unit, and Guardian Crew for the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery unit are all listed as Artillery. The only Infantry in any of them is the Warlock in the Vaul's Wrath Support Battery unit, and he's a Character.

So, unless you are saying that a gretchin, Techmarine, and Guardian crew cannot move, you don't know what you're talking about. Considering that what I quoted to you demonstrates there is an internal difference between types of Artillery models and you ignored that also demonstrates some lack of reading on your part.

I'm not going to bother addressing the rest except this next part.

Ceann wrote:
If you could avoid the tangents, unless you are willing to entertain that your "models move up to 6" isn't absolute then other questions are meaningless about Unit Types.
As until that changes you will have it as a premise for any other discussion.

ME avoid the tangents? This has all been YOUR tangent! YOU brought up the argument about Basic vs Advanced in this thread. YOU brought up the discussion on Movement in this thread.

You have not bothered to properly address the questions that have been asked of you. You give the answers to questions you want to have asked. So do not be placing the blame on me. I had a feeling I should have done this earlier, and now I will. Be known to the ranks I hold Col_Ignored in.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 19:10:14


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
This thread apears to be getting off topic. Unless people wish to discuss the question posed, which has nothing to do with basic rules vs advanced rules, I'm going to ask for a thread lock.


I will just PM him.

As for deepstrike/outflank consensus I think we have it.
Col has been requested to supply a rule that allows him to ignore following the rest of the rules for deep strike, aside from that it seems like most agree that you can't use part of a rule.


You failed to address my counterpoint above.

The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves. The permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.




Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 19:25:38


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:
 Happyjew wrote:
This thread apears to be getting off topic. Unless people wish to discuss the question posed, which has nothing to do with basic rules vs advanced rules, I'm going to ask for a thread lock.


I will just PM him.

As for deepstrike/outflank consensus I think we have it.
Col has been requested to supply a rule that allows him to ignore following the rest of the rules for deep strike, aside from that it seems like most agree that you can't use part of a rule.


You failed to address my counterpoint above.

The Deep Strike rule is never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. The Reserves rule is never overridden since BvA does not apply.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves. The permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

Spoiler:
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.




Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


You don't have a counterpoint, you only think that you do.
Deepstrike is further restrictive and a subcategory of reserves.

When the "start of your turn" occurs, it is immediately prompting you to roll for deep strike reserves.
This happens every turn "at the start of your turn" since you placed them into deep strike reserves this happens automatically.
Since you have a pending roll to resolve for deep strike, as soon as it is your turn, you are "electing" that it doesn't exist.
Deepstrike reserve is the form of reserves under which they were replaced, so the roll is for that.
If you had a unit that had outflank and deep strike, you couldn't opt to roll 3 times on your turn, for each different type of deployment option.
You roll for the reserve method they were placed in.

By deep striking, we are not breaking the rules of any rule.
By walking onto the board, we are breaking the rules of deep strike.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 19:32:01


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


You don't have a counterpoint, you only think that you do.
Deepstrike is further restrictive and a subcategory of reserves.

When the "start of your turn" occurs, it is immediately prompting you to roll for deep strike reserves.
This happens every turn "at the start of your turn" since you placed them into deep strike reserves this happens automatically.
Since you have a pending roll to resolve for deep strike, as soon as it is your turn, you are "electing" that it doesn't exist.
Deepstrike reserve is the form of reserves under which they were replaced, so the roll is for that.
If you had a unit that had outflank and deep strike, you couldn't opt to roll 3 times on your turn, for each different type of deployment option.
You roll for the reserve method they were placed in.


There is no 'pending roll' for deep strike. If my unit elects to Move On From Reserve then there is no Deep Striking unit.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:


By deep striking, we are not breaking the rules of any rule.
By walking onto the board, we are breaking the rules of deep strike.


No rule is broken when the unit elects to Move On From Reserve. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 20:54:05


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


You don't have a counterpoint, you only think that you do.
Deepstrike is further restrictive and a subcategory of reserves.

When the "start of your turn" occurs, it is immediately prompting you to roll for deep strike reserves.
This happens every turn "at the start of your turn" since you placed them into deep strike reserves this happens automatically.
Since you have a pending roll to resolve for deep strike, as soon as it is your turn, you are "electing" that it doesn't exist.
Deepstrike reserve is the form of reserves under which they were replaced, so the roll is for that.
If you had a unit that had outflank and deep strike, you couldn't opt to roll 3 times on your turn, for each different type of deployment option.
You roll for the reserve method they were placed in.


There is no 'pending roll' for deep strike. If my unit elects to Move On From Reserve then there is no Deep Striking unit.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:


By deep striking, we are not breaking the rules of any rule.
By walking onto the board, we are breaking the rules of deep strike.


No rule is broken when the unit elects to Move On From Reserve. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.


Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Wrong.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...

This happens at the same time, for all units you have reserves, regardless of which form of reserves, the moment it is your turn. You may not have yet rolled for it, but it is waiting for you to roll.
You might be able to choose the sequence you perform the rolls in, but it is still waiting for you to perform the roll.
You cannot for example, choose a unit and decide to not roll for it to arrive.
The rules for outflank do not dictate the rules for rolling for reserves, neither does deep strike.
These rules dictate how you arrive/deploy.
By using the Deep Strike rule as a deployment option, when you stated it, you are subjecting yourself to following the rules for it.
Just like if you choose to fire a plasma weapon, you are subjecting yourself to rolling for "Gets Hot". You don't HAVE to use that weapon, you chose too.
Deep Strike tells you to use the rules ARRIVING, the rules for arriving are...

"At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is
being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that
unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again
next turn."

Deep Strike does not tell you to use the rules for reserves for "Moving on from reserve"

Maybe that is where you were confused, the rules for "Arriving from Reserves" only dictate how to perform the d6 roll.
They do not determine how you deploy, those rules were not referenced by deep strike.

If you prefer we can ask the OP to put it to a vote and leave it at that, however I don't see anyone else advocating for your position.
You seem intent on not changing your mind "as usual" so further discussion with you is pointless on the topic.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/04/30 21:01:47


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Wrong.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves...

This happens at the same time, for all units you have reserves, regardless of which form of reserves, the moment it is your turn. You may not have yet rolled for it, but it is waiting for you to roll.
You might be able to choose the sequence you perform the rolls in, but it is still waiting for you to perform the roll.
You cannot for example, choose a unit and decide to not roll for it to arrive.
The rules for outflank do not dictate the rules for rolling for reserves, neither does deep strike.
These rules dictate how you arrive/deploy.

If you prefer we can ask the OP to put it to a vote and leave it at that, however I don't see anyone else advocating for your position.
You seem intent on not changing your mind "as usual" so further discussion with you is pointless on the topic.


There is no "at the same time". The active player chooses the order in which to apply permissions in the cases of any conflict. Remember BvA does not apply so the rules for Deep Strike do not override the rules for Reserves.

The player expends the roll when the unit elects to arrive by Moving On From Reserves. There is no Deep Striking unit to roll for.

The permission to arrive by Moving On From Reserves is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 15:28:09


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:

You keep forgetting the rest of BvA you are too laser focused on a single sentence.


I'd dispute that because there's been more than one sentence there I've worked with, along with the quote from the start of the core rules section which you want to ignore.

Ceann wrote:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
A Calvary unit moving 12" is using the rules for movement, the movement rules state they are permitted to move their maximum distance. It is not breaking any rule.


Basic rules say a unit moves 6". It's the first statement in movement distance. A unit moving their "maximum" distance runs into the problem that the basic rules say they move 6". There is no mechanism in the rules provided for adjudicating basic vs. basic rules except for d6'ing it if you can't agree with your opponent. So, obviously there's something else going on. You still have a basic limitation of 6" uniess sometthing overrides it. Being told Cavalry can move 12" is an ADVANCED rule, overriding the BASIC statement that units move 6". The fact that the Unit Type rules are outside the Core Rules section should be a clue, as should the cavalry rules not applying to all models (a qualification we are given for advanced rules in the sidebar).

Ceann wrote:

How can a boltgun be an advanced rule? In order to BE an advanced rule you HAVE to be conflicting with a basic rule. If there is no gun that is THE "basic rule" then no weapon can be an advanced rule because it has NOTHING to conflict with. The only thing a weapon can conflict with are the rules for shooting or the rules for assault.
Your argument holds no water in practice.


A model with a boltgun is cited as an example of having a special rule in the Basic vs. Advanced boxout itself. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Games Workshop. As to why it would be considered an advanced rule, then we see that advanced rules apply to specific equopment and not to every model like we are told basic rules apply to. So, the only thing making a boltgun special would be the boltgun profile, which is something not every model/ every weapon has (at least not every one having the exact same weapon profile) Your problem here seems to be similar to the problem you have with units. The basic rules indicate that units have a unit type, but don't get into details about what that means - that's saved for the advanced rules (as indicated by Unit Type rules NOT being in the Core Rules section). For weapons, we're told as a basic rule that all weapons have a profile, but we're not given the specific profile in the basic rules - they save that for the appendix (again, outside the Core Rules section). A basic rule that gives a rudimentary indication that something exists but does not provide details does not make details for specific things later basic rules in and of themselves. .



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 15:32:51


Post by: Charistoph


 doctortom wrote:
A model with a boltgun is cited as an example of having a special rule in the Basic vs. Advanced boxout itself. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Games Workshop. As to why it would be considered an advanced rule, then we see that advanced rules apply to specific equopment and not to every model like we are told basic rules apply to. So, the only thing making a boltgun special would be the boltgun profile, which is something not every model/ every weapon has (at least not every one having the exact same weapon profile) Your problem here seems to be similar to the problem you have with units. The basic rules indicate that units have a unit type, but don't get into details about what that means - that's saved for the advanced rules (as indicated by Unit Type rules NOT being in the Core Rules section). For weapons, we're told as a basic rule that all weapons have a profile, but we're not given the specific profile in the basic rules - they save that for the appendix (again, outside the Core Rules section). A basic rule that gives a rudimentary indication that something exists but does not provide details does not make details for specific things later basic rules in and of themselves.

Another interesting side note on the Boltgun is that Rapid Fire goes by some odd rules on determining how many shots are fired, rather than an absolute number, and it prevents a unit from Charging.

If there was any "basic standard" of Shooting Weapons, it would be Assault. It provides a number of shots, it isn't reliant on what happens in the Movement Phase, and it doesn't prevent Charging. But that's if there were any "basic standard" for Shooting Weapons.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 15:36:37


Post by: doctortom


col_impact wrote:
 doctortom wrote:


Yes, that is the question at hand. To be fair, though, the discussion on basic vs advanced was locked because of the back and forth between Ceann and col impact. They're not having the back and forth here like they were there, and I'm waiting for col impact to respond to my last reply to him to see if he's willing to engage in an honest discussion on this.

For the point at hand, I think the differiing outflank rules make clear their intent on how to handle similar situations (of which deep strike is one) even if you are not willing to accept the RAW - we have "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves" in the Special rules for Outflank, but "When this unit arrives from Reserves" for ouflanking embedded in Infiltrate and in Scout special rules. Since they're supposed to be the same rule, it's obvious that "this unit" = "an Outflanking unit". It treats the way it is coming out of Reserves as a qualifier and applies it to the unit; from the two statements they indicate that it is treated as an Outflanking unit from the point it declares it will Outflank and it can't change its mind (otherwise, saying "this unit" forces the unit to Outflank wouldn't be true. So, if that's true that an Outflanking unit is a unit that has declared it it coming in from Reserves via Outflank, then a Deep Striking unit would be a unit that has declared that it will deep strike and will have to follow the rules for bringing in Deep Striking units from the board.


I am not sure what continued discussion on the question at hand is going to bring.


Try it, you might be surprised.

col_impact wrote:
[You have already admitted that per the Rules As Written a unit that is placed in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves can simply elect to walk on the board from Reserves when it comes time to Roll for Reserves. No rule prevents this.


Don't put words in my mouth. I have not "admitted" that, and have argues against it.

col_impact wrote:
Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.


Actually, I duspute your quote, which you don't want to give a page reference for. The quote you gave for Outflank was not the quote in the Outflank special rule. You're basing your whole argument on comparing Outflank to Deep Strike in wording as being different as an example of how permission is stripped via Outflank. "If "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" followed by "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified..." (page 162) does not strip permissions away to walk on, then how does "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy." followed by "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..." (page 168) manage to strip away permission to walk on?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.


Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).


I'm sorry, but that does not fly. You do not get to invoke half a rule, or part of a rule, and get to ignore the rest of the rule if you find it inconventient. You invoked the first half of the rule by placing them in Reserves and declaring that they will Deep Strike (or Outflank, for units that Outflank). Since you invoked the rule, you must stick with the rest of the rule.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 16:14:11


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:

You keep forgetting the rest of BvA you are too laser focused on a single sentence.


I'd dispute that because there's been more than one sentence there I've worked with, along with the quote from the start of the core rules section which you want to ignore.

Ceann wrote:
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale.
A Calvary unit moving 12" is using the rules for movement, the movement rules state they are permitted to move their maximum distance. It is not breaking any rule.


Basic rules say a unit moves 6". It's the first statement in movement distance. A unit moving their "maximum" distance runs into the problem that the basic rules say they move 6". There is no mechanism in the rules provided for adjudicating basic vs. basic rules except for d6'ing it if you can't agree with your opponent. So, obviously there's something else going on. You still have a basic limitation of 6" uniess sometthing overrides it. Being told Cavalry can move 12" is an ADVANCED rule, overriding the BASIC statement that units move 6". The fact that the Unit Type rules are outside the Core Rules section should be a clue, as should the cavalry rules not applying to all models (a qualification we are given for advanced rules in the sidebar).

Ceann wrote:

How can a boltgun be an advanced rule? In order to BE an advanced rule you HAVE to be conflicting with a basic rule. If there is no gun that is THE "basic rule" then no weapon can be an advanced rule because it has NOTHING to conflict with. The only thing a weapon can conflict with are the rules for shooting or the rules for assault.
Your argument holds no water in practice.


A model with a boltgun is cited as an example of having a special rule in the Basic vs. Advanced boxout itself. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Games Workshop. As to why it would be considered an advanced rule, then we see that advanced rules apply to specific equopment and not to every model like we are told basic rules apply to. So, the only thing making a boltgun special would be the boltgun profile, which is something not every model/ every weapon has (at least not every one having the exact same weapon profile) Your problem here seems to be similar to the problem you have with units. The basic rules indicate that units have a unit type, but don't get into details about what that means - that's saved for the advanced rules (as indicated by Unit Type rules NOT being in the Core Rules section). For weapons, we're told as a basic rule that all weapons have a profile, but we're not given the specific profile in the basic rules - they save that for the appendix (again, outside the Core Rules section). A basic rule that gives a rudimentary indication that something exists but does not provide details does not make details for specific things later basic rules in and of themselves. .



Boltgun is cited as an advanced rule to a SPECIFIC model. A detail being ignored.
Units are not specific models.
Buying equipment on an army list entry is an advanced rule, which is what specific models do.

We are told models move up to 6 and then in the next sentence that it represents MOST creatures, not all. Right before we were told that I infantry would be explained, models move 6 is for infantry, not all models.
You are isolating the statement from the others around it.
Nothing needs to be override we have a hooded statement as per the intro as the most important aspect of a rule, that ALL units can move their max distance. Not most, all.


Deepstrike reserve gives you a deepstrike reserve roll. You do not get a reserve roll for every model for every type it has. If a unit has out flank and deep strike you don't get 3 reserve rolls for normal, deepstrike and out flank


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 16:17:23


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:


I do know the difference. I also know the difference between the rules for a unit type and the basic rules.
We were told we were going to be explained Infantry and we have been explained Infantry.
You can't lean on page 13 because there is no basic vs basic precedence.

Models move up to 6" is INVALIDATED as a standard by "This represents most creatures"


"Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise." Looks like their explantion fits. Then, in the sections with the advanced rules (outside the Core Rules section), we're given the rules for specific units that override this basic rule of moving only 6".




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:

Any movement type more than 6" is never noted as advanced, this is a construct entirely made by you.


Actually, it's a construct of the main rulebook rules, not of Charistoph. It is for a particular non-infantry type (referenced on page 13 as having advanced rules) and being a rule outside the core rules section, which according to page 7 makes it outside the section containing basic rules as new rules. There is no specified distance other than 6" in the core rules section, so that makes that the basic rule. Any other distance specified will be an advance rule that overrides that basic rule.




Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 16:27:38


Post by: col_impact


 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.


Actually, I duspute your quote, which you don't want to give a page reference for. The quote you gave for Outflank was not the quote in the Outflank special rule. You're basing your whole argument on comparing Outflank to Deep Strike in wording as being different as an example of how permission is stripped via Outflank. "If "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" followed by "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified..." (page 162) does not strip permissions away to walk on, then how does "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy." followed by "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..." (page 168) manage to strip away permission to walk on?


The quote I reference technically strips away the permission. The quote you reference technically does not. GW is being inconsistent (not surprisingly) and the logical consequences of each statement is different. So if the player has access to both rule statements then it's their choice which permission they use. The discrepancy in the quotes for Outflanking has no bearing on my argument as I can still point to the one quote as an example where the permission has been stripped.


 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.


Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).


I'm sorry, but that does not fly. You do not get to invoke half a rule, or part of a rule, and get to ignore the rest of the rule if you find it inconventient. You invoked the first half of the rule by placing them in Reserves and declaring that they will Deep Strike (or Outflank, for units that Outflank). Since you invoked the rule, you must stick with the rest of the rule.



The full Deep Strike rule is present and never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply.




Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 16:45:01


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Now you want to engage in a discussion trying to decipher intent from the clues that GW provides to prop up some imagined rule to add to the rules we have written down. However, there is no need for any speculation. The simplest solution is that Outflanking simply refers to a unit that is using the Outflank rules to actively re-position itself. Outflank-ing, where "-ing" means the process of.


Actually, I duspute your quote, which you don't want to give a page reference for. The quote you gave for Outflank was not the quote in the Outflank special rule. You're basing your whole argument on comparing Outflank to Deep Strike in wording as being different as an example of how permission is stripped via Outflank. "If "When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)" followed by "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified..." (page 162) does not strip permissions away to walk on, then how does "During Deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one model with this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy." followed by "When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..." (page 168) manage to strip away permission to walk on?


The quote I reference technically strips away the permission. The quote you reference technically does not. GW is being inconsistent (not surprisingly) and the logical consequences of each statement is different. So if the player has access to both rule statements then it's their choice which permission they use. The discrepancy in the quotes for Outflanking has no bearing on my argument as I can still point to the one quote as an example where the permission has been stripped.


 doctortom wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


It technically can't Col.
Cite a rule that states you can partially follow a rule.
Please at any time, cite the source, we will wait for you to find it.

Once you "declare" you are putting units in Deep Strike reserve, the "deploy as follows" is already PENDING to be resolved on the reserve rolls. You cannot choose to ignore it.


Rule statements are only followed if they are invoked. The second half of the Deep Strike rules is simply never invoked. A unit that walks on from Reserves will never invoke the Deep Strike rule (unless it goes into Ongoing Reserves).


I'm sorry, but that does not fly. You do not get to invoke half a rule, or part of a rule, and get to ignore the rest of the rule if you find it inconventient. You invoked the first half of the rule by placing them in Reserves and declaring that they will Deep Strike (or Outflank, for units that Outflank). Since you invoked the rule, you must stick with the rest of the rule.



The full Deep Strike rule is present and never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply.




Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



It is triggered, at the start of your turn, because it is in deepstrike reserve. Before you even pick up your dice to roll, it is already triggered.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 17:04:23


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:


Boltgun is cited as an advanced rule to a SPECIFIC model. A detail being ignored.
Units are not specific models.
Buying equipment on an army list entry is an advanced rule, which is what specific models do.


So? Advanced rules are not limited to units, as it appears you are thinking. The fact that mission special rules exist should clue you in on that. Just because they cited a location for advanced rules for units does not mean units are the only thing with advanced rules.

Ceann wrote:

We are told models move up to 6 and then in the next sentence that it represents MOST creatures, not all.


Earlier you argued that the 6" was an example because they were giving it for infantry. Now, you're saying it's for most creatures.


Ceann wrote:
Right before we were told that I infantry would be explained, models move 6 is for infantry, not all models.
You are isolating the statement from the others around it.


I'm not isolating the statement. It's the lead statement in Movement Distance. They give the explanation for it later, it's because most units (not just infantry) move 6". I gave you the quote from page 13 that covers a basic rule not covering all models, this is a stated example if you go with the explanation right after the statement. See? Not isolating the sentence at all. You just prefer to ignore the sentence totally, which you are not given permission to do in the basic rules section.

Ceann wrote:
Nothing needs to be override we have a hooded statement as per the intro as the most important aspect of a rule, that ALL units can move their max distance. Not most, all.


Wrong, completely wrong. It's still a basic rule stated plainly in the core rules section. That not all units move it means only that you can expect advanced rules for specific units that will override the rule for moving 6". In order for the movement rules for the different units to be basic rules for all the units, they would have had to state in a sentence and/or show on a table in the core rules section the exact movement distance for each type of unit. That they didn't indicates that they don't consider the movement rules for other typse of units, when they differ, as basic rules.


Ceann wrote:

Deepstrike reserve gives you a deepstrike reserve roll. You do not get a reserve roll for every model for every type it has. If a unit has out flank and deep strike you don't get 3 reserve rolls for normal, deepstrike and out flank


Or, more technically, it gives you a Reserves roll as a Deep Striking unit. But you still follow the Deep Strike rules for their arrival, having invoked the Deep Strike rule when placing them in Reserves. I agree with you here. You don't get to invoke the rules for an Independent Character to be attached to a unit by placing him with the unit in Reserves, then just before rolling getting to change your mind after seeing what's happened on the battlefield and say "No, I was only kidding. He wasn't attached to the unit after all when I put him in."


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 17:11:20


Post by: doctortom


col_impact wrote:

The quote I reference
yet still don't provide the page number for

col_impact wrote:
technically strips away the permission. The quote you reference technically does not. GW is being inconsistent (not surprisingly) and the logical consequences of each statement is different. So if the player has access to both rule statements then it's their choice which permission they use. The discrepancy in the quotes for Outflanking has no bearing on my argument as I can still point to the one quote as an example where the permission has been stripped.


And if they don't? I know of at least one Warlord Trait in Waaagh!!! Ghazghkull that says a unit gains Outflank, so there are times where you don't get both. Also, it seems pretty dubious that the same rule can either strip permission away or not strip it away if it's doing the same thing. If your version strips it away, doesn't that indicate that they don't have the permission, and therefore would not have the permission with the other wording either?


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 19:35:09


Post by: Brother Ramses


So I challenge anyone to break this premise;

The section on Unit Types contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively, while specific models within those Unit Types will have Advanced Rules and Special Rules specific to that model. Example given,

Stormrider: Unit Type Vehicle (Chariot, Open-topped) and as such will follow all basic rules for that Unit Type for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault Phase. The specific model, Stormrider, has Advanced Rules that give it a 4++, turn all glances into pens, and give Logan additional attacks with the Special Rule Rending.


As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 19:53:04


Post by: Charistoph


 Brother Ramses wrote:
So I challenge anyone to break this premise;

The section on Unit Types contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively, while specific models within those Unit Types will have Advanced Rules and Special Rules specific to that model.

This was stated by Caenn, several responses were given in counter, no response made regarding this was ever made to support it. So, I ask you, where does it state "the section on Unit Type contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively"?

Answer: Nowhere that I have found. This concept is a construct that ignores that the Unit Type section is outside the Core Rules, and anything that causes a model to be different, "because hey are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)", have advanced rules applied. As such, there is no connection in defining anything in the Unit Type as "basic rules" aside from the Infantry Unit Type, and that is only because it explicitly states as such.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 20:11:21


Post by: doctortom


 Charistoph wrote:
 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.


"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, [b]if the unit is in Reserve, by informing your opponent which unit it has joined." (page 166). Going by the col impact standard, it's okay to say that you changed your mind, it's not joined to the other unit as long as you do it before rolling to come out of Reserve, despite having already declared it is joined to the unit


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 20:16:13


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
col_impact wrote:

The quote I reference
yet still don't provide the page number for

col_impact wrote:
technically strips away the permission. The quote you reference technically does not. GW is being inconsistent (not surprisingly) and the logical consequences of each statement is different. So if the player has access to both rule statements then it's their choice which permission they use. The discrepancy in the quotes for Outflanking has no bearing on my argument as I can still point to the one quote as an example where the permission has been stripped.


And if they don't? I know of at least one Warlord Trait in Waaagh!!! Ghazghkull that says a unit gains Outflank, so there are times where you don't get both. Also, it seems pretty dubious that the same rule can either strip permission away or not strip it away if it's doing the same thing. If your version strips it away, doesn't that indicate that they don't have the permission, and therefore would not have the permission with the other wording either?


At the start of your turn all Reserves rolls are pending, you choose the order.
Deepstrike uses the rules for Reserves to dictate it's roll.
Because you are in deepstrike reserve it prompts for a deepstrike roll.
Because it uses the rules for Reserves it is impossible to start your turn and perform a normal roll without the deepstrike roll being prompted.
They both trigger off the exact same criteria.
You have no way for it to not be prompted, so it is being ignored by Col.
He doesn't have an argument as one roll occurring without the criteria for deepstrike being met is impossible.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 20:29:48


Post by: Charistoph


 doctortom wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.


"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, [b]if the unit is in Reserve, by informing your opponent which unit it has joined." (page 166). Going by the col impact standard, it's okay to say that you changed your mind, it's not joined to the other unit as long as you do it before rolling to come out of Reserve, despite having already declared it is joined to the unit

And there is a specific rule stating you can't do that. Joining and Leaving a Unit, 4th Paragraph:
An Independent Character cannot leave a unit while either he or the unit is in Reserves, locked in combat, Falling Back or has Gone to Ground.

But I'm sure his esoteric knowledge of english will provide him an out. It usually does. Or he just ignores you or say that you said something completely different.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 20:55:16


Post by: Ceann


 Charistoph wrote:
 Brother Ramses wrote:
So I challenge anyone to break this premise;

The section on Unit Types contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively, while specific models within those Unit Types will have Advanced Rules and Special Rules specific to that model.

This was stated by Caenn, several responses were given in counter, no response made regarding this was ever made to support it. So, I ask you, where does it state "the section on Unit Type contains the basic rules for each unit type respectively"?

Answer: Nowhere that I have found. This concept is a construct that ignores that the Unit Type section is outside the Core Rules, and anything that causes a model to be different, "because hey are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank)", have advanced rules applied. As such, there is no connection in defining anything in the Unit Type as "basic rules" aside from the Infantry Unit Type, and that is only because it explicitly states as such.

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.


At the end of the day you have to be breaking a rule to be an advanced rule.

Models move up to 6 says it is represents most creatures, not all.
The rules for the movement phase say a unit can move it's maximum distance.

A beast unit moving 12 isn't breaking a rule, it is permitted to move it's max distance, it also isn't most creatures. No rule broken.

What rule is boltgun breaking? It follows all the rules for weapons laid out in the shooting rules. Weapon profiles have a field for special rules located after weapon type, so a bolter has no special rule and isn't breaking a rule.

You have a self determined view of the rules that is ruining majority of the weigh in that you do. It's difficult to clarify the rules when you have a flawed premise in the first place.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 21:14:30


Post by: doctortom


Ceann wrote:

At the end of the day you have to be breaking a rule to be an advanced rule.

Models move up to 6 says it is represents most creatures, not all.


It is. It's breaking the rule that units can move 6".The bit about saying it represents most creatures, not all creatures is an explanation - NOT a rule by itself that you apply to the rule that units move 6".

Ceann wrote:

The rules for the movement phase say a unit can move it's maximum distance.


The rules for the movement phase start by saying a unit can move 6", so that has to be overridden in order to move maximum distance. You don't override it, you break that rule if you move more than 6". Advanced rules override basic rules. The rules for beasts (or bikes or whatever) are advanced rules and therefore get to override the basic rule of moving 6". With the misconception of all movement rules being basic rules, you have to misconstrue and ignore other rules in order to try to make that view work.




Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 21:29:53


Post by: Ceann


 doctortom wrote:
Ceann wrote:

At the end of the day you have to be breaking a rule to be an advanced rule.

Models move up to 6 says it is represents most creatures, not all.


It is. It's breaking the rule that units can move 6".The bit about saying it represents most creatures, not all creatures is an explanation - NOT a rule by itself that you apply to the rule that units move 6".

Ceann wrote:

The rules for the movement phase say a unit can move it's maximum distance.


The rules for the movement phase start by saying a unit can move 6", so that has to be overridden in order to move maximum distance. You don't override it, you break that rule if you move more than 6". Advanced rules override basic rules. The rules for beasts (or bikes or whatever) are advanced rules and therefore get to override the basic rule of moving 6". With the misconception of all movement rules being basic rules, you have to misconstrue and ignore other rules in order to try to make that view work.




You are mistaken sir.
Movement distance, which is stated after the explanation about how infantry will be described first, says models move 6 etc under movement distance.

Under movement phase, in bold, as per the instructions in the introduction, as the most important aspect of a rule, it states that each turn you may move your units, all of them their maximum distance.

Please go read the first page of the movement phase.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 21:38:23


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:
col_impact wrote:


The full Deep Strike rule is present and never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply



It is triggered, at the start of your turn, because it is in deepstrike reserve. Before you even pick up your dice to roll, it is already triggered.


The triggers for Moving On From Reserve and Deep Strike happen "at the same time". The active player decides to resolve Moving On From Reserve for the Rolls from Reserve.

Spoiler:
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.


Remember, BvA does not apply so the active player must choose the order. If the active player chooses to have the unit Move On From Reserves then there is no Deep Striking unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:


And if they don't? I know of at least one Warlord Trait in Waaagh!!! Ghazghkull that says a unit gains Outflank, so there are times where you don't get both. Also, it seems pretty dubious that the same rule can either strip permission away or not strip it away if it's doing the same thing. If your version strips it away, doesn't that indicate that they don't have the permission, and therefore would not have the permission with the other wording either?


What is the point you want that you want to make with these questions? Is there a rule to substantiate what you want to say?

Remember we are concerned with understanding the rules as they are written on the page.

Per the RAW, a player can choose when Rolling for Reserves whether his units Move On From Reserves or whether they Deep Strike


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brother Ramses wrote:


As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.


A player who follows the rules as written and uses the freedom of choice granted by the rules is not lying. He is simply playing according to the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Charistoph wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.


Your comment doesn't apply at all.

Per the Mission Special Rules all the models on the board have the Reserves special rule.

The player is simply exercising that permission at the appropriate time. The player is not retroactively changing the game state as you do in your example. Make sure your imagined scenarios are equivalent and pertinent to the issue being discussed.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 21:57:39


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:
col_impact wrote:


The full Deep Strike rule is present and never ignored. The second half of the Deep Strike rule is simply never triggered since the unit elected Moving On From Reserves instead. Rules only apply when their condition for application is met.

The unit is in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves. When the player makes the Roll for Reserves he simply elects to use the permission to Move on From Reserves.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


The above permission is still there and no rule has taken that permission away.

The burden is on you to show that permission taken away. Otherwise the unit simply uses it. Remember BvA does not apply



It is triggered, at the start of your turn, because it is in deepstrike reserve. Before you even pick up your dice to roll, it is already triggered.


The triggers for Moving On From Reserve and Deep Strike happen "at the same time". The active player decides to resolve Moving On From Reserve for the Rolls from Reserve.

Spoiler:
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘at the start of the Movement phase’ or similar. When this happens, and the wording is not explicit as to which rule is resolved first, then the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a game turn, the players roll-off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved in.


Remember, BvA does not apply so the active player must choose the order. If the active player chooses to have the unit Move On From Reserves then there is no Deep Striking unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 doctortom wrote:


And if they don't? I know of at least one Warlord Trait in Waaagh!!! Ghazghkull that says a unit gains Outflank, so there are times where you don't get both. Also, it seems pretty dubious that the same rule can either strip permission away or not strip it away if it's doing the same thing. If your version strips it away, doesn't that indicate that they don't have the permission, and therefore would not have the permission with the other wording either?


What is the point you want that you want to make with these questions? Is there a rule to substantiate what you want to say?

Remember we are concerned with understanding the rules as they are written on the page.

Per the RAW, a player can choose when Rolling for Reserves whether his units Move On From Reserves or whether they Deep Strike


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brother Ramses wrote:


As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.


A player who follows the rules as written and uses the freedom of choice granted by the rules is not lying. He is simply playing according to the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Charistoph wrote:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
As for the actual discussion at hand, [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] is actively advocating lying to his opponents. Once again he has put forth a convoluted RAI assumptive argument and then attempt to then paint it with a self-declared RAW brush. However just like you can't Bedazzle a turd and call it the Hope Diamond, you need the RAW to call it RAW and [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] never uses RAW.

Indeed. The "It doesn't say I can't" argument doesn't go very far with anyone without initial permission existing in the first place.

It would be no different from changing how a unit Arrives From Reserves than changing the fact that they were IN Reserves in the first place. Employing such a concept would at best find you watching your opponent pack up. At worst, you will be losing the chance at any future games without moving too far away for rumor to follow you or being dropped out of every tournament right then and there.


Your comment doesn't apply at all.

Per the Mission Special Rules all the models on the board have the Reserves special rule.

The player is simply exercising that permission.


You are just purely incorrect Col.

You don't get a normal reserve roll, your argument was that it didn't even trigger you obviously are trying to change that argument now.
Clearly you were wrong so now you are setting up your next obfuscation.

You only get one reserve roll for every unit. You don't get to choose the type of roll.
Because you deployed as deepstrike reserve, you get a deepstrike roll.
Just like if you deploy with Outflank you get an Outflank roll.

The type of roll you get is attached to your method of deployment.
You are just trying to find a way around it now and there isn't one.

Let's also clear up your vast over assertion. Reserves is NOT a special rule. It is a mission special rule in the deployment phase.
Once the battle has started we are no longer in deployment. Missoni special rules have no relevance here.

Night fighting gives an actual real special rule to units. Reserves is a MISSION special rule and does not directly affect units in game.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 22:03:38


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


You are just purely incorrect Col.

You don't get a normal reserve roll, your argument was that it didn't even trigger you obviously are trying to change that argument now.
Clearly you were wrong so now you are setting up your next obfuscation.

You only get one reserve roll for every unit. You don't get to choose the type of roll.
Because you deployed as deepstrike reserve, you get a deepstrike roll.
Just like if you deploy with Outflank you get an Outflank roll.

The type of roll you get is attached to your method of deployment.
You are just trying to find a way around it now and there isn't one.


There is no such thing as a "Deep Strike roll" or an "Outflank roll". In each of these cases the rule for Roll from Reserves is used.

My argument hasn't changed.

The player simply exercises the following permission.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


After exercising that permission there will not be a Deep Striking unit.

Remember BvA does not apply so the active player chooses the order in which to apply events that happen "at the same time".


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 22:07:15


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


You are just purely incorrect Col.

You don't get a normal reserve roll, your argument was that it didn't even trigger you obviously are trying to change that argument now.
Clearly you were wrong so now you are setting up your next obfuscation.

You only get one reserve roll for every unit. You don't get to choose the type of roll.
Because you deployed as deepstrike reserve, you get a deepstrike roll.
Just like if you deploy with Outflank you get an Outflank roll.

The type of roll you get is attached to your method of deployment.
You are just trying to find a way around it now and there isn't one.


My argument hasn't changed.

The player simply exercises the following permission.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.

Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve.

Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve

When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn.


After exercising that permission there will not be a Deep Striking unit.

Remember BvA does not apply so the active player chooses the order in which to apply events that happen "at the same time".


You don't have an argument.

Prove you have a normal reserve roll.
You deployed as deepstrike, so you only have a deepstrike rule.
Also mission special rules are for deployment, they are not special rules in the battle. Nice try though.

Night fighting for example grants your units a real special rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 22:13:40


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


You don't have an argument.

Prove you have a normal reserve roll.
You deployed as deepstrike, so you only have a deepstrike rule.
Also mission special rules are for deployment, they are not special rules in the battle. Nice try though.

Night fighting for example grants your units a real special rule.


This is the rule used to make the Reserve Roll in each case we are discussing.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.


The unit is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open for the player to have the unit simply Walk On From Reserves.

Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


Reserves is a special rule affecting all models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


So I have substantiated all of my argument with direct rules quotes and you have substantiated none of your counter argument. You are losing this argument, Ceann.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 23:26:45


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


You don't have an argument.

Prove you have a normal reserve roll.
You deployed as deepstrike, so you only have a deepstrike rule.
Also mission special rules are for deployment, they are not special rules in the battle. Nice try though.

Night fighting for example grants your units a real special rule.


This is the rule used to make the Reserve Roll in each case we are discussing.

Spoiler:
Arriving from Reserve

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.

At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.


The unit is placed in both Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open for the player to have the unit simply Walk On From Reserves.

Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).


Reserves is a special rule affecting all models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


So I have substantiated all of my argument with direct rules quotes and you have substantiated none of your counter argument. You are losing this argument, Ceann.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


And you still don't have an argument.
Highlight MISSION special rules all you want.
Those are rules for the DEPLOYMENT phase.
Not for the battle.
They are special for the BATTLE, not for the UNITS.

NOTE that Night Fighting grants your units a special rule.
Reserves does not give your units a special rule.
Units do not have a special rule called "Reserves".
The MISSION has a special rule, the units do not.
Deep Strike has precedence, you have no argument.

"While the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect, all units have the Stealth special
rule."

Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to
conceal your true strength from the foe.

Night Fighting gives units a special rule.
Reserves does not.

BvA, Deep Strike has precedence.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 23:29:45


Post by: Alpharius


NEXT PERSON TO BREAK RULE #1 IN HERE IS GETTING A LONG VACATION.


LULZ name changes?

Against RULE #1.

Attacking the poster, and not the argument/point?

Against RULE #1

NON-NEGOTIABLE.





Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 23:32:57


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


And you still don't have an argument.
Highlight MISSION special rules all you want.
Those are rules for the DEPLOYMENT phase.
Not for the battle.
They are special for the MISSION, not for the battle.


Incorrect. The Reserves rules include rules for Arriving from Reserve, Moving On From Reserves, and Ongoing Reserves.

All of those rules happen during the battle and they are all special rules and those are the rules that are pertinent to the discussion at hand.

Ceann, it doesn't help your counter argument to make statements that go directly against plainly stated rules. I suggest you change your approach.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote:


BvA, Deep Strike has precedence.


BvA does not apply here. Both Reserves and Deep Strike are special rules. Reserves is a special rule affecting all models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Again, Ceann, when you directly contradict the BRB it does not help your argument.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 23:41:21


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


And you still don't have an argument.
Highlight MISSION special rules all you want.
Those are rules for the DEPLOYMENT phase.
Not for the battle.
They are special for the MISSION, not for the battle.


Incorrect. The Reserves rules include rules for Arriving from Reserve, Moving On From Reserves, and Ongoing Reserves.

All of those rules happen during the battle and they are all special rules and those are the rules that are pertinent to the discussion at hand.

Ceann, it doesn't help your counter argument to make statements that go directly against plainly stated rules. I suggest you change your approach.



I don't need to change anything, you have no argument.
All USR's are listed in the Special Rules section.
Your claim that "Reserves" is something the units/models gain is inherently false.

It is a special rule for the mission, mission special rules are not unit special rules.
It is a special rule for the mission, allowing you to perform reserves, that does not mean the reserve rolls themselves in the battle are special rules.

Night Fighting is an example that clearly states it gives units a special rule of stealth.
Reserve rules are only special rules in regards to OTHER mission rules, they have no precedence over UNIT rules.
Deployment phase rules have no precedence once the battle has started.
Remember the deployment phase is part of "preparing for battle" as you have pointed out previously.

We are no longer "preparing for battle" so those rules no longer have any status.
We can tell this because Night Fighting tells us the units gain a special rule.
Reserves does not tell us the unit gains a special rule.
BvA Deep strike has precedence.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 23:48:34


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


I don't need to change anything, you have no argument.
All USR's are listed in the Special Rules section.
Your claim that "Reserves" is something the units/models gain is inherently false.

It is a special rule for the mission, mission special rules are not unit special rules.
It is a special rule for the mission, allowing you to perform reserves, that does not mean the reserve rolls themselves in the battle are special rules.

Night Fighting is an example that clearly states it gives units a special rule of stealth.
Reserve rules are only special rules in regards to OTHER mission rules, they have no precedence over UNIT rules.
Deployment phase rules have no precedence once the battle has started.
Remember the deployment phase is part of "preparing for battle" as you have pointed out previously.

We are no longer "preparing for battle" so those rules no longer have any status.
We can tell this because Night Fighting tells us the units gain a special rule.
Reserves does not tell us the unit gains a special rule.
BvA Deep strike has precedence.


Again you present an argument that goes directly against plainly stated rules.

Reserves is a special rule affecting all units/models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/01 23:55:41


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


I don't need to change anything, you have no argument.
All USR's are listed in the Special Rules section.
Your claim that "Reserves" is something the units/models gain is inherently false.

It is a special rule for the mission, mission special rules are not unit special rules.
It is a special rule for the mission, allowing you to perform reserves, that does not mean the reserve rolls themselves in the battle are special rules.

Night Fighting is an example that clearly states it gives units a special rule of stealth.
Reserve rules are only special rules in regards to OTHER mission rules, they have no precedence over UNIT rules.
Deployment phase rules have no precedence once the battle has started.
Remember the deployment phase is part of "preparing for battle" as you have pointed out previously.

We are no longer "preparing for battle" so those rules no longer have any status.
We can tell this because Night Fighting tells us the units gain a special rule.
Reserves does not tell us the unit gains a special rule.
BvA Deep strike has precedence.


Again you present an argument that goes directly against plainly stated rules.

Reserves is a special rule affecting all units/models in the Mission. The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that it is not a basic rule so BvA does not apply.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


Please dear Col, highlight the line where it states that it is a special rule for models/units.
I would love dearly to see it.
What I need to be concerned with is that you actually properly represent the rules.
Since it clearly does not state that, you are making an insubstantial claim to prop up your argument.
Units are not "a game".


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:22:21


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Please dear Col, highlight the line where it states that it is a special rule for models/units.
I would love dearly to see it.
What I need to be concerned with is that you actually properly represent the rules.
Since it clearly does not state that, you are making an insubstantial claim to prop up your argument.
Units are not "a game".



Reserves is a special rule affecting all units/models in the Mission as indicated in the orange highlighting below.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


The only thing that you need to be concerned about is that the abilities that the Reserves special rule grants to models/units in the game are not overridden by the Deep Strike special rule. BvA does not apply by definition - Reserves is not a basic rule. In fact, Reserves is a special rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:31:05


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


Please dear Col, highlight the line where it states that it is a special rule for models/units.
I would love dearly to see it.
What I need to be concerned with is that you actually properly represent the rules.
Since it clearly does not state that, you are making an insubstantial claim to prop up your argument.
Units are not "a game".



Reserves is a special rule affecting all units/models in the Mission as indicated in the orange highlighting below.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.



MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game

A game is not Units Col, please highlight where it states this is conferred to units or we can just accept your concession.

We can tell by the process of elimination that it does not grant any special rules to units.
As we can see below each MISSION SPECIAL RULES, notates when it does grant special rules to units.
Reserves DOES NOT state it grants any special rules to units.
By comparing mission rules that do grant special rules to units vs those that do not. We can simply conclude that Reserves is not a special rule for units.
Your assertion that it is, is false just as I claimed.
Deep Strike has precedence.

Night Fighting
If a mission has the Night Fighting special rule, either player can declare that they wish to
fight the battle at night. If either player does so, roll a D6 before deployment: on a roll of
4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during game turn 1.
While the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect, all units have the Stealth special
rule.


Mysterious Objectives
When a mission uses the Mysterious Objectives special rule, any unit that moves within
3" of an objective, or is within 3" of an objective at the start of the first turn, must identify
the nature of it. To do so, the identifying unit’s controlling player must roll a D6 and
consult the following table.

3 - Skyfire Nexus. A unit that controls this objective can choose whether or
not all of the models in it have the Skyfire special rule each time they shoot.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:36:51


Post by: col_impact


Ceann,

the burden is on you to show how BvA even applies in this case.

Reserves is a special rule. Deep Strike is a special rule.

No matter how many times you object, BvA simply does not apply.

You need to prove that BvA applies.

The only thing I need to show is that all units in the game have the ability to Arrive from Reserves and Move On From Reserves, which I have shown by simply pointing to the Reserves special rule in the BRB.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:40:23


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann,

the burden is on you to show how BvA even applies in this case.

Reserves is a special rule. Deep Strike is a special rule.

No matter how many times you object, BvA simply does not apply.

You need to prove that BvA applies.


Again, I don't need to do anything.
Please correct your wording. Reserves is not a special rule.
Reserves is a MISSION SPECIAL RULE.

Remember how you drew the contrast between outflank and deepstrike?
We have the exact same situation here but it is against you.

Night Fighting
If a mission has the Night Fighting special rule, either player can declare that they wish to
fight the battle at night. If either player does so, roll a D6 before deployment: on a roll of
4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during game turn 1.
While the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect, all units have the Stealth special rule.


Everyone here can plainly see that Night Fighting Mission special rule confers a special rule to a unit

Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to
conceal your true strength from the foe.


Do you see where it says "Units gain the Reserves special rule"

I don't.

So please provide your proof that they do, or provide your concession.
You are obfuscating now so you don't have to provide evidence for your claim.
Mission Special Rules are not unit special rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:43:58


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Again, I don't need to do anything.
Please correct your wording. Reserves is not a special rule.
Reserves is a MISSION SPECIAL RULE.

Remember how you drew the contrast between outflank and deepstrike?
We have the exact same situation here but it is against you.

Night Fighting
If a mission has the Night Fighting special rule, either player can declare that they wish to
fight the battle at night. If either player does so, roll a D6 before deployment: on a roll of
4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during game turn 1.
While the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect, all units have the Stealth special rule.


Everyone here can plainly see that Night Fighting Mission special rule confers a special rule to a unit

Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to
conceal your true strength from the foe.


Do you see where it says "Units gain the Reserves special rule"

I don't.

So please provide your proof that they do, or provide your concession.
You are obfuscating now so you don't have to provide evidence for your claim.
Mission Special Rules are not unit special rules.


Your problem that you continue to fail to address is that BvA simply does not apply. You have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule. Good luck with that.



Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:48:26


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


Again, I don't need to do anything.
Please correct your wording. Reserves is not a special rule.
Reserves is a MISSION SPECIAL RULE.

Remember how you drew the contrast between outflank and deepstrike?
We have the exact same situation here but it is against you.

Night Fighting
If a mission has the Night Fighting special rule, either player can declare that they wish to
fight the battle at night. If either player does so, roll a D6 before deployment: on a roll of
4+, the Night Fighting special rule is in effect during game turn 1.
While the Night Fighting mission special rule is in effect, all units have the Stealth special rule.


Everyone here can plainly see that Night Fighting Mission special rule confers a special rule to a unit

Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to
conceal your true strength from the foe.


Do you see where it says "Units gain the Reserves special rule"

I don't.

So please provide your proof that they do, or provide your concession.
You are obfuscating now so you don't have to provide evidence for your claim.
Mission Special Rules are not unit special rules.


Your problem that you continue to fail to address is that BvA simply does not apply.


It does apply because if you cannot prove it is a UNIT special rule.
Then when you roll for the UNIT the UNIT special rule deep strike has precedence.
Mission Special Rules are only special rules in the deployment phase as a part of the "game".
Just like Mysterious Objectives are not special rules in the battle, only SOME of the options from die rolls result in a special rule during the battle, such as skyfire.

So please quit changing the subject.

Demonstrate that "Units gain the Reserves" special rule.
You clearly lost the argument because now you are trying to attack mine instead of defending your own.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:53:46


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


It does apply because if you cannot prove it is a UNIT special rule.
Then when you roll for the UNIT the UNIT special rule deep strike has precedence.
Mission Special Rules are only special rules in the deployment phase as a part of the "game".
Just like Mysterious Objectives are not special rules in the battle, only SOME of the options from die rolls result in a special rule during the battle, such as skyfire.

So please quit changing the subject.

Demonstrate that "Units gain the Reserves" special rule.
You clearly lost the argument because now you are trying to attack mine instead of defending your own.


BvA does not apply. So the unit retains all the permissions granted by the Reserves special rule. The player simply elects to have the unit Move On From Reserves when the unit Arrives From Reserves.


Remember, in order for BvA to apply here you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule. Good luck with that.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:56:37


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


It does apply because if you cannot prove it is a UNIT special rule.
Then when you roll for the UNIT the UNIT special rule deep strike has precedence.
Mission Special Rules are only special rules in the deployment phase as a part of the "game".
Just like Mysterious Objectives are not special rules in the battle, only SOME of the options from die rolls result in a special rule during the battle, such as skyfire.

So please quit changing the subject.

Demonstrate that "Units gain the Reserves" special rule.
You clearly lost the argument because now you are trying to attack mine instead of defending your own.


BvA does not apply. So the unit retains all the permissions granted by the Reserves special rule. The player simply elects to have the unit Move On From Reserves when the unit Arrives From Reserves.


Remember, in order for BvA to apply here you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule. Good luck with that.


Sure.

I read the entire USR section.
Is Reserves in the USR section?
Nope.

Please demonstrate that it is a special rule that units gain.
You clearly lost because now you are attacking my argument rather than defending your position.
You in fact gave up your position because it had been compromised.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:58:06


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Sure.

I read the entire USR section.
Is Reserves in the USR section?
Nope.

Please demonstrate that it is a special rule that units gain.
You clearly lost because now you are attacking my argument rather than defending your position.
You in fact gave up your position because it had been compromised.


Remember, in order for BvA to apply here you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule. Good luck with that.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 00:59:27


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


Sure.

I read the entire USR section.
Is Reserves in the USR section?
Nope.

Please demonstrate that it is a special rule that units gain.
You clearly lost because now you are attacking my argument rather than defending your position.
You in fact gave up your position because it had been compromised.


Remember, in order for BvA to apply here you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule. Good luck with that.


BvA - The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Is "Reserves" in the Army List Entry?
Then it doesn't apply to the unit.
Deep Strike applies to the unit.
You are finished.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:04:11


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


BvA - The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Is "Reserves" in the Army List Entry?
Then it doesn't apply to the unit.
Deep Strike applies to the unit.
You are finished.


The Reserves special rule grants abilities to all units in the game that are not overridden by any rule.

BvA does not apply unless you can prove that Reserves is a basic rule.

Deep Strike can only override basic rules.

In fact, Deep Strike is dependent on the abilities granted units by the Reserves special rule. Without the Reserves special rule, units lack the ability to make a Reserve Rolls.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:06:35


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


BvA - The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry.

Is "Reserves" in the Army List Entry?
Then it doesn't apply to the unit.
Deep Strike applies to the unit.
You are finished.


The Reserves special rule grants abilities to all units in the game that are not overridden by any rule.

BvA does not apply unless you can prove that Reserves is a basic rule.

Deep Strike can only override basic rules.


I am asking you, as a requirement, per Tenet 1.
To provide your source that states that units gain the reserves special rule.
This is at least the 4th or 5th time I have asked for it.
You are making an unsubstantiated claim I have already proved false and you provide no evidence for.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:12:34


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


I am asking you, as a requirement, per Tenet 1.
To provide your source that states that units gain the reserves special rule.
This is at least the 4th or 5th time I have asked for it.
You are making an unsubstantiated claim I have already proved false and you provide no evidence for.


I have already provided support. A plainly stated quote from the BRB that you are having trouble comprehending.

The Reserves special rule grants abilities to units in the game which you can see highlighted in orange.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


If the players are playing according to the Reserves special rule then all units have those abilities.

Of course if the players are not playing according to the Reserves specail rule then all units do not have those abilities. In which case, Deep Strike fails to function since no unit is getting placed in Reserves or getting a Reserves Roll.


Remember you have to actually show that the permissions granted by the Reserves special rule have been taken away.

You have failed to prove that BvA applies so nothing is taking way the permissions granted by the Reserves special rule.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:16:37


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


I am asking you, as a requirement, per Tenet 1.
To provide your source that states that units gain the reserves special rule.
This is at least the 4th or 5th time I have asked for it.
You are making an unsubstantiated claim I have already proved false and you provide no evidence for.


I have already provided support.

The Reserves special rule grants abilities to units in the game which you can see highlighted in orange.

Spoiler:
MISSION SPECIAL RULES
Special rules can be added to a game to cover unique situations, tactics or abilities that you feel need to be represented in your battle.
Mysterious Objectives
Night Fighting
Reserves
Reserves are forces that can be called upon to reinforce a battle at short notice, or to conceal your true strength from the foe.

Preparing Reserves
When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve. The only exception to this are units that cannot move after they have been deployed. Such units are removed as casualties if it is impossible to deploy them during the Deployment step of Preparing for Battle.

Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Arriving from Reserve
At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserve and is rolled for again next turn.
At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn.
Some special rules can modify the roll required for a unit to arrive from Reserve. Regardless of the modifier(s), a natural roll of a 1 always means that the unit in question remains in Reserve.
When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move.

Moving On From Reserve
When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge. Measure the model’s move from the edge of the table, as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn. A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
If for some reason a model’s maximum move is insufficient to fit the entire model onto the board, or it becomes Immobilised whilst moving onto the board, place the model as far onto the table as you can. If this leaves the model in a position where it may fall off the table, then mark the position the model is meant to be occupying in some manner, and then position it more safely – we don’t want any models to get damaged in the battles that we fight!

Ongoing Reserves
If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re- enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.


If the players are playing according to the Reserves special rule then all units have those abilities.

Of course if the players are not playing according to the Reserves specail rule then all units do not have those abilities. In which case, Deep Strike fails to function since no unit is getting placed in Reserves or getting a Reserves Roll.


You have proved nothing.
A MISSION special rule is not a unit special rule.

All special rules use a format similiar to "X gains Y special rule".

That is a format used throughout the game.
Night Fighting is a clear demonstration of this.
The onus is on you provide "Reserves" is a unit special rule and you are unable to do so.
It isn't a unit special rule until you prove it is one.
You are asserting that it is one and demanding I prove that it isn't, you are making an unproven assumption it is one in the first place.
There is no further argument to be had here because you cannot defend your argument.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:23:34


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


You have proved nothing.
A MISSION special rule is not a unit special rule.

All special rules use a format similiar to "X gains Y special rule".

That is a format used throughout the game.
Night Fighting is a clear demonstration of this.
The onus is on you provide "Reserves" is a unit special rule and you are unable to do so.
It isn't a unit special rule until you prove it is one.
You are asserting that it is one and demanding I prove that it isn't, you are making an unproven assumption it is one in the first place.
There is no further argument to be had here because you cannot defend your argument.


You have it backwards.

You have failed to make a counter argument. You have failed to show that BvA applies to remove permissions that are granted by the Reserves special rule.

My argument is simple. If the Reserves special rule is in effect then units in the game have the abilities that the Reserves special rule grants. No rule takes away those permissions. Simple.


So until you start showing how BvA even applies here the argument is effectively over. Remember you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule for BvA to even apply.

My argument is already proven by the mere presence of the Reserves special rule in the game.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:31:00


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


You have proved nothing.
A MISSION special rule is not a unit special rule.

All special rules use a format similiar to "X gains Y special rule".

That is a format used throughout the game.
Night Fighting is a clear demonstration of this.
The onus is on you provide "Reserves" is a unit special rule and you are unable to do so.
It isn't a unit special rule until you prove it is one.
You are asserting that it is one and demanding I prove that it isn't, you are making an unproven assumption it is one in the first place.
There is no further argument to be had here because you cannot defend your argument.


You have it backwards.

You have failed to make a counter argument. You have failed to show that BvA applies to remove permissions that are granted by the Reserves special rule.

My argument is simple. If the Reserves special rule is in effect then units in the game have the abilities that the Reserves special rule grants. No rule takes away those permissions. Simple.


So until you start showing how BvA even applies here the argument is effectively over. Remember you have to prove that Reserves is a basic rule for BvA to even apply.

My argument is already proven by the mere presence of the Reserves special rule in the game.


Reserves is a MISSION special rule.
It does not grant UNITS any special rules.
Night Fighting grants units a special rule.
Reserves does not.
You are bringing us a donkey and calling it a horse.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:49:52


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:


Reserves is a MISSION special rule.
It does not grant UNITS any special rules.
Night Fighting grants units a special rule.
Reserves does not.
You are bringing us a donkey and calling it a horse.


The Reserves rule gives units the ability and permission to Arrive From Reserves and Move On From Reserves.

You have failed to show a rule that takes away those permissions.

Until you show a rule that takes away those permission your argument is invalid.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.





Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:52:16


Post by: Ceann


col_impact wrote:
Ceann wrote:


Reserves is a MISSION special rule.
It does not grant UNITS any special rules.
Night Fighting grants units a special rule.
Reserves does not.
You are bringing us a donkey and calling it a horse.


The Reserves rule gives units the ability and permission to Arrive From Reserves and Move On From Reserves.

You have failed to show a rule that takes away that permission.

Until you show a rule that takes away that permission your argument is invalid.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.





Mission special rules are not special rules for units.
Deep Strike is a special rule for units.
Deep Strike has precedence.

Provide evidence that states units gain a rule called "Reserves".


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 01:57:43


Post by: col_impact


Ceann wrote:

Deep Strike has precedence.


How does Deep Strike have precedence?

BvA does not apply.



Summary of Argument

Spoiler:
The rules indicate that only those units that 'must arrive by Deep Strike' will have no choice but to arrive by Deep Strike.

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.


A unit with the Deep Strike rule could choose to instead arrive from Reserves invoking normal infantry permissions and walking on the battlefield.

The Deep Strike rules require that you merely announce that you will be arriving via Deep Strike. But announcing does not restrict you from arriving via the general permission to walk on the battlefield from Reserves. The general permission is still completely available and has not been removed by any rule, special or otherwise. The Deep Strike rule specifically places you in Reserves AND Deep Strike Reserves, keeping the option to walk on the battlefield from Reserves open.

For comparison, note that Outflank is written in such a way that all other options are removed.


Outflank
During deployment, players can declare that any unit that contains at least one modelwith this special rule is attempting to Outflank the enemy.

When this unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve, the controlling player rolls a D6: on a 1-2, the unit comes in from the table edge to the left of their controlling player’s own table edge; on a 3-4, they come on from the right; on a 5-6, the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves.


Outflank takes away the permission to walk on from Reserves. Deep Strike does not. A unit that has announced that it will be Deep Striking is placed both in Reserves and Deep Strike Reserves, leaving the option open to walk on from Reserves when it comes time to roll for Reserves.

The player must announce that the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike, but - and this is the big but - there is no rule in place requiring the player to actually have that unit arrive by Deep Strike. Outflank provides this but Deep Strike does not.

Announcing is not levying a restriction.

When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve).



The rule is 100% satisfied by merely telling your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike". End of story. That's what the rule literally requires. What amounts to 'a declaration of intent to Deep Strike'.

If you later change your mind and have the unit walk on the battlefield from Reserves the rule is still satisfied. You told your opponent "the unit will be arriving by Deep Strike" and that act of telling (declaring intent) is all that was required.


Pay attention to what the rule is actually requiring and not what you think it is requiring.

"You must tell your opponent that [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike" does not mean "the unit must arrive by Deep Strike".



Technically, the player still has the option of changing his mind when it comes to Rolling for Reserves and having the unit walk on the battlefield and not Deep Strike onto the battlefield.



Also, this is how we determine which rule is which

Spoiler:
1) Basic rules are in the Core Rules section and only in the Core Rules section.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.




2) Advanced rules are found in any section of the BRB that is not the Core Rules section, although technically there could be a few advanced rules in the Core Rules section. We just know that all basic rules are in the Core Rules section.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).



The rule for advanced rules calls out "bike", "character", "tank", "swarm", and "boltgun" as examples of advanced rules that apply to specific models. Those particular example advanced rules can be found in the Unit Type section (bike unit type, character rules, tank vehicle type) and the Appendix (swarm special rule, boltgun weapon profile). The Battlefield Terrain and Preparing for Battle sections in the BRB can also contain advanced rules. Basically any section of the BRB which is not the Core Rules section can contain advanced rules (although technically there may be advanced rules in the Core Rules section). The Core Rules section is for basic rules.

Advanced rules are any rules that distinguish a model as a specific model separate from the most basic infantry model using the basic rules for movement, shooting, combat, or morale.

The Army List Entry indicates what advanced rules apply. One typically finds Army List Entries in a codex but the advanced rules themselves can be found in all sections of the BRB and any 40k publication such as a Codex.


3) Special Rules are in the Special Rule section. They can also be elsewhere.

All Special Rules are Advanced Rules but not all Advanced Rules are Special Rules.


Deep Striking/Outflanking and Reserves @ 2017/05/02 02:00:58


Post by: Janthkin


Good sign a YMDC thread has gone on long enough: it's more than 5 pages.

Better sign: only 2 people are posting back-and-forth in it.