It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
Just when I thought 8E was on a great track...it looks like they're gonna be dead set on doing something stupid to the IP that's been keeping the game alive...
I mean...we've had "Space Marines...but better" in various guises for years, and initially their fluff was really good. The Custodes and Grey Knights for example. Then they started to get worse with stuff like 5E Ultramarines fluff. Now we're literally just getting "Bigger Better" marines...?
Like...is GW's dev studio really just that hard up for ideas?
Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
Vaktathi wrote: It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
Just when I thought 8E was on a great track...it looks like they're gonna be dead set on doing something stupid to the IP that's been keeping the game alive...
I mean...we've had "Space Marines...but better" in various guises for years, and initially their fluff was really good. The Custodes and Grey Knights for example. Then they started to get worse with stuff like 5E Ultramarines fluff. Now we're literally just getting "Bigger Better" marines...?
Like...is GW's dev studio really just that hard up for ideas?
Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
I mean, they essentially did the same thing with AoS "Sigmarines," right?
Vaktathi wrote: It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
Just when I thought 8E was on a great track...it looks like they're gonna be dead set on doing something stupid to the IP that's been keeping the game alive...
I mean...we've had "Space Marines...but better" in various guises for years, and initially their fluff was really good. The Custodes and Grey Knights for example. Then they started to get worse with stuff like 5E Ultramarines fluff. Now we're literally just getting "Bigger Better" marines...?
Like...is GW's dev studio really just that hard up for ideas?
Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
I mean, they essentially did the same thing with AoS "Sigmarines," right?
No, not really. Fantasy didn't really have something like Stormcast, and they were a new idea for the setting. Reforging is a good concept, that hasn't been seen before (I don't think).
Vaktathi wrote: It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.
Vaktathi wrote: It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.
My issue is that it really undercuts the setting's theme I feel. It's supposed to be one where stuff is lost, never to be recovered. Where great tragedies occur. Where promise of technology solving problems long ago faded and what's left is insufficient. Where hope is nonexistent and only endless war remains.
More to the point, it just feels just both unnecessary and hamfisted if they just want to redo the model line. DE didn't need a fluff reboot to revamp their entire model line from the ground up for instance.
Just watched that, and am glad space marines are not my primary army. My knee-jerk reaction is to dislike it, as it seems like a step to make existing space marine armies obsolete, but after the revelations so far I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I didn't like centurions at first either (Yo dawg I hear you like power armor), but now I'm ok with them.
My personal guess is that these will be the kind of things where you bring 1 for your army, maybe 2, and they'll be expensive. Not lords of war kind of units, but something like a really strong HQ with some tactical flexibility. Like what Voldus was supposed to be.
Vaktathi wrote: It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.
My issue is that it really undercuts the setting's theme I feel. It's supposed to be one where stuff is lost, never to be recovered. Where great tragedies occur. Where promise of technology solving problems long ago faded and what's left is insufficient. Where hope is nonexistent and only endless war remains.
More to the point, it just feels just both unnecessary and hamfisted if they just want to redo the model line. DE didn't need a fluff reboot to revamp their entire model line from the ground up for instance.
Except all dark ages end, and even during them technology advances. There is no historical precedent for the 40K setting. It seems impossible in any post-information age setting. Planetary cloud storage systems and interplanetary cloud storage systems would make it nearly impossible to lose anything.
Vaktathi wrote: It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit... [snip] ...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.
My issue is that it really undercuts the setting's theme I feel. It's supposed to be one where stuff is lost, never to be recovered. Where great tragedies occur. Where promise of technology solving problems long ago faded and what's left is insufficient. Where hope is nonexistent and only endless war remains.
More to the point, it just feels just both unnecessary and hamfisted if they just want to redo the model line. DE didn't need a fluff reboot to revamp their entire model line from the ground up for instance.
The setting is quite off putting for many new players. A large portion of the players just want to play the good guys, and do not like this grim dark nonsense at all. They might just create this wedge in the IoM to allow players who do not have a skull fetish or dislike the twisted religious vibe to play their knights in space army.
Vaktathi wrote: It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
[snip]
...Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
I think it's more about reworking the fluff to hamfist a new SM model line out. RG did say this'll be a way to revive the dead and dying chapters so maybe we'll see the return of the Celestial Lions, Lamentors, etc and maybe see some due successors to the Salamanders.
My issue is that it really undercuts the setting's theme I feel. It's supposed to be one where stuff is lost, never to be recovered. Where great tragedies occur. Where promise of technology solving problems long ago faded and what's left is insufficient. Where hope is nonexistent and only endless war remains.
More to the point, it just feels just both unnecessary and hamfisted if they just want to redo the model line. DE didn't need a fluff reboot to revamp their entire model line from the ground up for instance.
Except all dark ages end, and even during them technology advances. There is no historical precedent for the 40K setting. It seems impossible any post-information age setting. Planetary cloud storage systems and interplanetary cloud storage systems would make it nearly impossible to lose anything.
Which is why 40k is more a "fantasy in space" setting than a SciFi setting. This is a universe where spaceship gun turrets are borne onto target by slave-chain-gang crews rotating great gears and cogs and the like.
But more to the point, the 40k setting fundamentally is just built on a concept that technology is not a savior, hope is lost, advancement a fevered dream. That's been a crucial part of the thematic underpinnings since its inception.
The setting is quite off putting for many new players. A large portion of the players just want to play the good guys, and do not like this grim dark nonsense at all.
They might just create this wedge in the IoM to allow players who do not have a skull fetish or dislike the twisted religious vibe to play their knights in space army.
Then I would posit that the Tau Empire exists as an outlet, and that changing a fundamental premise of the IP, the only thing that keeps the product relevant and interesting, is a potential landmine. If people don't like the "grim dark nonesense", then 40k isn't going to be their thing either way. More to the point, it's unlikely that NuMarines will have any fewer skulls and whatnot.
For myself, the Gulf War ruined Star wars for me because I realized the US military could put a smart bomb down a chimney smaller than the Death Star shaft with a 1980s computer system.
The miss rate of Imperial tanks is unacceptable by modern standards of the post-Abrams tank age.
As far as tone, while I empathize with the players who've been around since the early days of 40K, the setting really hasn't been all that grimdark since at least 5th edition, which is over ten years old.
I mean, Abaddon destroying Chaos is the only non-Imperial major victory we've seen in like 20 years.
Martel732 wrote: For myself, the Gulf War ruined Star wars for me because I realized the US military could put a smart bomb down a chimney smaller than the Death Star shaft with a 1980s computer system.
The miss rate of Imperial tanks is unacceptable by modern standards of the post-Abrams tank age.
Well you are talking about 2 different things here. Tanks are different than orbital missiles.
Now, if the guard could buy for 150 points, a one-use-only strength 8 AP3 large blast that didn't scatter, that would make more sense.
Martel732 wrote: For myself, the Gulf War ruined Star wars for me because I realized the US military could put a smart bomb down a chimney smaller than the Death Star shaft with a 1980s computer system.
The miss rate of Imperial tanks is unacceptable by modern standards of the post-Abrams tank age.
Well you are talking about 2 different things here. Tanks are different than orbital missiles.
Now, if the guard could buy for 150 points, a one-use-only strength 8 AP3 large blast that didn't scatter, that would make more sense.
Of course scatter is gone in 8th so who knows.
Not really; both smart missiles and modern armor use computers to target and hit. Hammerheads, for example, should NEVER miss a Leman Russ. I know its a game, but it really breaks my suspension of disbelief for the Tau.
Losing battles isn't the part that is off putting. Its the horrorshow that is 40k that most of my non 40k wargaming friends do not like about the setting.
This is what most players like to see when they play the good guys.
But instead they are getting this, combined with a nice sauce of fascism, decadence, religious oppression and xenophobia.
oldzoggy wrote: Losing battles isn't the part that is off putting. Its the horrorshow that is 40k that most of my non 40k wargaming friends do not like about the setting.
This is what most players like to see when they play the good guys.
Spoiler:
But instead they are getting this, combined with a nice sauce of fascism, decadence, religious oppression and xenophobia.
Huh, interesting.
Does anyone know if pre-Sigmar Fantasy was similar to 40K in terms of tone? The guilliman art there reminds me alot of the art I've seen in the few Fantasy codices I've read.
oldzoggy wrote: Losing battles isn't the part that is off putting. Its the horrorshow that is 40k that most of my non 40k wargaming friends do not like about the setting.
This is what most players like to see when they play the good guys.
But instead they are getting this, combined with a nice sauce of fascism, decadence and xenophobia.
Right, and that's kind of the point. 40k is a universe where the *good guys* are unimaginably bad, because the actual *bad guys* are even worse. Dialing everything up to 11 is part of what makes 40k what it is.
It's a universe where basically, the question of "what if we rolled Stalin, Hitler, the Spanish Inquisition, the worst elements of the Crusades and other stuff up into one universe...and they're the Good Guys?" is answered.
Even in your example pic of what players like to see when they play the good guys, you have huge elements of oppressive religious and fascist imagery. Great ranks of powerful warriors proudly displaying their war banners topped with horned skulls under the baleful glare of a powerful war leader clad in golden armor bearing powerful and cruel looking melee weapons. I mean, hell, the Imperial Aquila slapped everwhere is not so subtly inspired by the Reichadler of the 30's and 40's.
In the intro to every edition of 40k since the 1980's, the below blurb has been the intro used to describe the setting to new players.
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Isn't it kinda old, the whole super dark, grim pointless doomed universe of death and pointlessness, sucking you into an inevitable doom? I mean, it's cool and all, but sometimes good guys are fun.
Also, a primarch just came back. The exact same primarch who assumed to be emperor when he thought the emperor was dead back in 30k. He wouldn't try to bring it back to its old glory days again? I think it's cool, personally. I don't even think he's "saving the day as an epic super god." He's still only one dude with a small force of reimagined space marines. It just gives that element of hope that some players, especially new players, probably need to get into the universe.
That said, plastic sisters plez GW... plastic sisters...
P.S. I wouldn't be playing 40k if I didn't like the grim dark setting. It's just kinda nice to see some motion from the "good guys" for once
The old world was doomed. this didn't make it grim dark. Lotr kinda is doomed for most of the movie, as is Game of thrones both aren't grim dark if you ask me. Bretonnia knights where just shiny knights on horses, and Lizardmen where just fantasy iindiana jones maya's crosses with lizards who had tacy names. There where dark comers such as mortheim and mussilon, but anyone in there whas scum or evil etc. While most good guys in 40k are secretly over religious space nazi's or brain controlled thralls at best.
The doomed universe of gloomy doom isn't too bad its just that not all players want to play with an immoral faction. Just look at how many players in this forum have a "but my guys are the good guys" alternative headcannon army.
oldzoggy wrote: Losing battles isn't the part that is off putting. Its the horrorshow that is 40k that most of my non 40k wargaming friends do not like about the setting.
This is what most players like to see when they play the good guys.
But instead they are getting this, combined with a nice sauce of fascism, decadence and xenophobia.
Right, and that's kind of the point. 40k is a universe where the *good guys* are unimaginably bad, because the actual *bad guys* are even worse. Dialing everything up to 11 is part of what makes 40k what it is.
It's a universe where basically, the question of "what if we rolled Stalin, Hitler, the Spanish Inquisition, the worst elements of the Crusades and other stuff up into one universe...and they're the Good Guys?" is answered.
Even in your example pic of what players like to see when they play the good guys, you have huge elements of oppressive religious and fascist imagery. Great ranks of powerful warriors proudly displaying their war banners topped with horned skulls under the baleful glare of a powerful war leader clad in golden armor bearing powerful and cruel looking melee weapons. I mean, hell, the Imperial Aquila slapped everwhere is not so subtly inspired by the Reichadler of the 30's and 40's.
In the intro to every edition of 40k since the 1980's, the below blurb has been the intro used to describe the setting to new players.
Warhammer 40,000 wrote:To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be relearned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Copying and pasting my post from news thread here:
That video, wew lad that is awesome.
I like it. The Emperor gene-forged the Astartes at an appropriate level for their time. The cost of these new marines is probably higher than our current Astartes, so the Emperor made to a level that was more than capable for their time.
What is the best way to combat one of the biggest threats at the time? With more powerful soldiers.
Now Gulliman is taking a risk, if these new marines fall to chaos, it will cause bigger issues, but now that Gulliman is back, and able to focus resources etc, why wouldn't he make a new generation of Astartes that are bigger and better to combat the Imperium's enemy's?
Did anyone else notice as well that they said Chapters which have been destroyed would be brought back with these new Marines? That is awesome.
We already have one Heretics vs Loyalists.. But I totally agree it would be more fun if it became a 3 way battle between Heretics, loyalists and traitors in shiny armour. .
Umm what? That is literally the story we have at the moment with SM vs. CSM
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oldzoggy wrote: We already have one Heretics vs Loyalists.. But I totally agree it would be more fun if it became a 3 way battle between Heretics, loyalists and traitors in shiny armour. .
We already have that, there are traitor chapters that fight chaos also. albiet most of them fall to Chaos eventually.
The story doesn't REALLY matter to me, as I mostly ignore it anyway. I just think an imperial civil war would be cool. It's definitely big enough to function in pieces.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oldzoggy wrote: there are those who go renegade and fight their own mostly backwater battles but this isn't the same as a military coup that splits the IoM in two
oldzoggy wrote: there are those who go renegade and fight their own mostly backwater battles but this isn't the same as a military coup that splits the IoM in two
You mean in three, the Horus Heresy already covered this.
oldzoggy wrote: there are those who go renegade and fight their own mostly backwater battles but this isn't the same as a military coup that splits the IoM in two
You mean in three, the Horus Heresy already covered this.
The Horus Heresy was small in scale, though. And based around an elite few. I thinking more an ideological, citizen-driven split.
I liked the new video, because of one thing - hope.
Let's face it, the Imperium of man has been fethed over a barrel of late. Chaos actually forcing them back in big battles, not raids, destroying Cadia too. The Tyranids are still om nom nomming their way through the galaxy, Orks still fighting. Because Orks. The Necron dynasties awakening, and while they are just as happy to fight everyone, guarantee they might go to far and literally kill the universe with some doomsday weapon they have. And the Tau being all upstart with their fancy Gundam suits. Bleh.
Now, the Imperium has SOMEONE to back. While old big E might be stuck on Terra, his son has ideas. Hell, even the sisters of silence, admech, custodes, other chapters and the Astra militarum will back old girly man till the galaxy shatters. He's the one example of over the top 40k that isn't full grimdark or hiding something. He's the closest we've had to a proper, good guy in so long, it feels... odd.
Here's to 8th edition. Where hopefully it will put the fun back into 40k.
I like the Grimdark of 40k for what it is, and I prefer if it remain that way. But I acknowledge too that you can't sell that to the great public.
So, if 40k need to be make slightly more brillaint and less dark to appeal to a large public, I'm not gonna be a Lore-Hipster. I prefer to have even... I don't know... MOVIES of 40k in the future, that to remain with this very niche universe and hobby.
The grimdark version of 40k will always remain in mi rulebooks, novels and codices. I can go back to that if I want.
The Grimdark of the 41th millenium has to die to become a commercial sucess. It is the time we have to live. We are better accepting that now.
oldzoggy wrote: there are those who go renegade and fight their own mostly backwater battles but this isn't the same as a military coup that splits the IoM in two
You mean in three, the Horus Heresy already covered this.
The Horus Heresy was small in scale, though. And based around an elite few. I thinking more an ideological, citizen-driven split.
I suggest you re-read the Horus Heresy. Many many many planets through their lot in with Horus and Chaos, due to Lorgar and other chapters staying behind on planets etc.
I don't know how to feel about this. They are definitely not redoing the entire line, as that would just push more people away and be wayyy too much money. As for them making a new unit of just super marines, seems kind of dumb. I like the idea of a unit bigger and more powerful than marines, but I just wish they were more than just bigger marines
oldzoggy wrote: there are those who go renegade and fight their own mostly backwater battles but this isn't the same as a military coup that splits the IoM in two
You mean in three, the Horus Heresy already covered this.
The Horus Heresy was small in scale, though. And based around an elite few. I thinking more an ideological, citizen-driven split.
I suggest you re-read the Horus Heresy. Many many many planets through their lot in with Horus and Chaos, due to Lorgar and other chapters staying behind on planets etc.
I don't read the novels. Evidently not enough planets.
Let's face it, the Imperium of man has been fethed over a barrel of late. Chaos actually forcing them back in big battles, not raids, destroying Cadia too. The Tyranids are still om nom nomming their way through the galaxy, Orks still fighting. Because Orks. The Necron dynasties awakening, and while they are just as happy to fight everyone, guarantee they might go to far and literally kill the universe with some doomsday weapon they have. And the Tau being all upstart with their fancy Gundam suits. Bleh.
Now, the Imperium has SOMEONE to back. While old big E might be stuck on Terra, his son has ideas. Hell, even the sisters of silence, admech, custodes, other chapters and the Astra militarum will back old girly man till the galaxy shatters. He's the one example of over the top 40k that isn't full grimdark or hiding something. He's the closest we've had to a proper, good guy in so long, it feels... odd.
Here's to 8th edition. Where hopefully it will put the fun back into 40k.
Agreed. A lot of people get so focused on the "Grimdarkness" believing that in and of itself is enough. In reality "Grimdark with a spark of hope" gives you something to hold onto or root for. Otherwise you fall into (forgive me fore referencing tvtropes) Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy.
Melissia wrote: That is the lamest possible way they could have done this.
No, the lamest still goes to Certurions, space marines in space marines.
Centurions were introduced as "well we've always had this."
Lazy, yes, but acceptable.
This, though?
This comes across like they're screaming at us "HEY YOU LIKE ROBOUTE RIGHT WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ROBOUTE HERE WE'LL MAKE YOU LIKE HIM MORE BY HAVING HIM GIVE YOU SUPER-MARINES DON'T YOU LIKE MARINES THAT ARE MORE MARINES THAN THE OTHER MARINES WELL HE'S MAKING THEM BECAUSE HE'S AWESOME AND YOU LIKE HIM WHY DON'T YHOU LIKE HIM PLEASE LIKE ROBOUTE HE'LL BE LONELY IF YOU DON'T! HE'S OUR SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME CHARACTER WHO HAS NO FLAWS AND WILL ALWAYS WIN AND WE WILL DAMN SURE MAKE SURE OF IT!"
Melissia wrote: That is the lamest possible way they could have done this.
No, the lamest still goes to Certurions, space marines in space marines.
Centurions were introduced as "well we've always had this."
Lazy, yes, but acceptable.
This, though?
This comes across like they're screaming at us "HEY YOU LIKE ROBOUTE RIGHT WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ROBOUTE HERE WE'LL MAKE YOU LIKE HIM MORE BY HAVING HIM GIVE YOU SUPER-MARINES DON'T YOU LIKE MARINES THAT ARE MORE MARINES THAN THE OTHER MARINES WELL HE'S MAKING THEM BECAUSE HE'S AWESOME AND YOU LIKE HIM WHY DON'T YHOU LIKE HIM PLEASE LIKE ROBOUTE HE'LL BE LONELY IF YOU DON'T! HE'S OUR SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME CHARACTER WHO HAS NO FLAWS AND WILL ALWAYS WIN AND WE WILL DAMN SURE MAKE SURE OF IT!"
Just fething sad really.
Read my other post, it does make sense to try and trump CSM with better soldiers.
Melissia wrote: That is the lamest possible way they could have done this.
No, the lamest still goes to Certurions, space marines in space marines.
Centurions were introduced as "well we've always had this."
Lazy, yes, but acceptable.
This, though?
This comes across like they're screaming at us "HEY YOU LIKE ROBOUTE RIGHT WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ROBOUTE HERE WE'LL MAKE YOU LIKE HIM MORE BY HAVING HIM GIVE YOU SUPER-MARINES DON'T YOU LIKE MARINES THAT ARE MORE MARINES THAN THE OTHER MARINES WELL HE'S MAKING THEM BECAUSE HE'S AWESOME AND YOU LIKE HIM WHY DON'T YHOU LIKE HIM PLEASE LIKE ROBOUTE HE'LL BE LONELY IF YOU DON'T! HE'S OUR SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME CHARACTER WHO HAS NO FLAWS AND WILL ALWAYS WIN AND WE WILL DAMN SURE MAKE SURE OF IT!"
Just fething sad really.
Read my other post, it does make sense to try and trump CSM with better soldiers.
Bah! They'll just get Fabius Bile to make even better super soldiers to counter them.
Melissia wrote: That is the lamest possible way they could have done this.
No, the lamest still goes to Certurions, space marines in space marines.
Centurions were introduced as "well we've always had this."
Lazy, yes, but acceptable.
This, though?
This comes across like they're screaming at us "HEY YOU LIKE ROBOUTE RIGHT WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ROBOUTE HERE WE'LL MAKE YOU LIKE HIM MORE BY HAVING HIM GIVE YOU SUPER-MARINES DON'T YOU LIKE MARINES THAT ARE MORE MARINES THAN THE OTHER MARINES WELL HE'S MAKING THEM BECAUSE HE'S AWESOME AND YOU LIKE HIM WHY DON'T YHOU LIKE HIM PLEASE LIKE ROBOUTE HE'LL BE LONELY IF YOU DON'T! HE'S OUR SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME CHARACTER WHO HAS NO FLAWS AND WILL ALWAYS WIN AND WE WILL DAMN SURE MAKE SURE OF IT!"
Just fething sad really.
Read my other post, it does make sense to try and trump CSM with better soldiers.
Bah! They'll just get Fabius Bile to make even better super soldiers to counter them.
Melissia wrote: Worst primarch though IMO, and this isn't making him better. Even Angron has more depth, and his core personality is basically just "I'm angry".
Meh he is pretty much Julius Ceasar, and I love Roman history
Gaius Julius Caesar, as written by an ignorant 14 year old who wants to create a flawless perfect hero to worship and can't figure out why no one likes his character.
Melissia wrote: Gaius Julius Caesar, as written by an ignorant 14 year old who wants to create a flawless perfect hero to worship and can't figure out why no one likes his character.
He is hardly flawless, the fact he is perceived as such is partly what makes him so interesting.
Melissia wrote: You say "interesting", I say "boring". Like most of the primarchs, he belongs in 30k and 30k is where he should have remained.
I guess our own opinions will remain our own opinions, and neither will be swayed
Personally, very excited about all Primarch's return. More is generally better in my opinion, when it comes to options. I am almost drooling at the thought of Mortarion returning, and bring on tougher space marines to take him on!
I fully admit-- I've never liked the primarchs as anything but legendary legends and mythical myths that we've forgotten the truth about, but they live on through retellings of their deeds and their descendants. I liked all the primarchs when that is what they were.
Unfortunately, that ship has long since sailed with Black Library's dreadful 30k series. It was inevitable after those books that they'd dump 40k for 30k, and that's exactly what this is.
Centurions were introduced as "well we've always had this."
Lazy, yes, but acceptable.
This, though?
This comes across like they're screaming at us "HEY YOU LIKE ROBOUTE RIGHT WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ROBOUTE HERE WE'LL MAKE YOU LIKE HIM MORE BY HAVING HIM GIVE YOU SUPER-MARINES DON'T YOU LIKE MARINES THAT ARE MORE MARINES THAN THE OTHER MARINES WELL HE'S MAKING THEM BECAUSE HE'S AWESOME AND YOU LIKE HIM WHY DON'T YHOU LIKE HIM PLEASE LIKE ROBOUTE HE'LL BE LONELY IF YOU DON'T! HE'S OUR SUPER SPECIAL AWESOME CHARACTER WHO HAS NO FLAWS AND WILL ALWAYS WIN AND WE WILL DAMN SURE MAKE SURE OF IT!"
Just fething sad really.
Since the very day Guilliman's return was announced by GW, I've been waiting. Desperately waiting, for you to log on and complain about it. And my patience has been decadently rewarded.
I'm glad they're moving the plot along, and I'm interested to see where they take it. However, the one concern that I have is how this is going to manifest in the game - are they really going to release a faction of Ultra Ultramarines? Just a new line of Space Marines that don't have stumpy legs, and call it a day?
If they revamp the Space Marines line with a new standard of model to represent marines I'm going to be somewhat miffed.
Rippy wrote: I was making posts back in 2014 about wanting Primarchs to return. Been waiting years for this moment.
Grey Knights can't be everywhere. If Death Guard pop into a system with Salamanders, they don't run away and call for the Grey Knights.
To be fair, neither can the Space Marines. On a galactic scale, the difference in numbers is irrelevant as they're both so rare as to be effectively nonexistent.
Either way, there was already a faction purpose built for this kind of task and background niche already, hamfisting another one in feels, well, cheap and unnecessary.
And on the topic of balance, lucky we are getting a reset then aye?
Yes, but if these new guys have new rules that just amount to be "SuperMarines", that doesn't help things.
Luciferian wrote: I'm glad they're moving the plot along, and I'm interested to see where they take it. However, the one concern that I have is how this is going to manifest in the game - are they really going to release a faction of Ultra Ultramarines? Just a new line of Space Marines that don't have stumpy legs, and call it a day?
If they revamp the Space Marines line with a new standard of model to represent marines I'm going to be somewhat miffed.
The line about restoring dead or near-dead chapters heavily implies that any chapter might have the nu-marines.
They'll most likely be their own stand-alone army, with options for them to be taken as allies or an elites choice or whatever in all the other chapter dexes.
The absolute last thing this setting needed was nu-Marines. If GW wants to re-do the SM line, fine. Re-do it. But more marines who are more marine than marines? We already have those. We have Grey Knights. We have Custodes. For that matter, we have Centurions, who are just Marines in your Marines, so you can Marine while you Marine.
I like what they're doing with the story, it's nice to finally have things moving again, but nu-Marines weren't necessary. I honestly don't even mind the Primarchs returning, but I don't necessarily want them striding across the battlefields of the 41st millenium. Keep them as plot devices, tacticians, generals, etc. They were created to lead - let them lead. Have them try to return the Imperium to it's former glory, have them help create new technologies to fight the machinations of Chaos. Have them create the hope that the Imperium needs.
But instead, we are getting more Gary Stu's so the Space Marines can be the toughest kids on the block again. I'm definitely excited about the reboot of the game rules, but I now worry that these will be that first step towards one-upsmanship. These guys are going to be gnarly, so someone else is going to get a new gnarly to fight the current gnarly. And so on...
You know what I was thinking, he said he brought ancient tech back to make these guys. And they're going on a crusade. What if Guilliman is making something equivalent to primarchs to lead against the forces of chaos?
What would have been the most interesting thing to me is if the Primarchs came back and then almost immediately rebelled against this foreign, hyper-regressive Imperium, creating their own third faction.
So essentially it would be the Primarchs with their loyal followers, vs the Imperium itself vs Chaos.
BlaxicanX wrote: What would have been the most interesting thing to me is if the Primarchs came back and then almost immediately rebelled against this foreign, hyper-regressive Imperium, creating their own third faction.
So essentially it would be the Primarchs with their loyal followers, vs the Imperium itself vs Chaos.
I suppose that would be too derivative, though.
Our of respect for the Emperor, habit, purpose and the old enemy still existing, I would say there is less reason than ever for the Loyalists to go against the Imperium. Just my opinion though.
Respect for the Emperor is actually the greatest motivator for the Primarchs to want to overthrow the High Lords. The Imperium does not resemble the Emperor's vision on any level. Every aspect of what the Imperium was and stood for has regressed by the time of the 41st millenium.
I agree about the existence of Chaos being the greater evil to focus on, though.
BlaxicanX wrote: Respect for the Emperor is actually the greatest motivator for the Primarchs to want to overthrow the High Lords. The Imperium does not resemble the Emperor's vision on any level. Every aspect of what the Imperium was and stood for has regressed by the time of the 41st millenium.
I agree about the existence of Chaos being the greater evil to focus on, though.
On that note, how would rebelling against the Imperium help to bring the Emperor's vision in to existence? I am sure humanity would generally love to throw off their shackles of oppression if offered. Getting people off religion would be tough, as it even appeared during the Great Crusade, though rebelling against the Imperium would still suffer that problem.
Martel732 wrote: For myself, the Gulf War ruined Star wars for me because I realized the US military could put a smart bomb down a chimney smaller than the Death Star shaft with a 1980s computer system.
The miss rate of Imperial tanks is unacceptable by modern standards of the post-Abrams tank age.
Well you are talking about 2 different things here. Tanks are different than orbital missiles.
Now, if the guard could buy for 150 points, a one-use-only strength 8 AP3 large blast that didn't scatter, that would make more sense.
Of course scatter is gone in 8th so who knows.
Not really; both smart missiles and modern armor use computers to target and hit. Hammerheads, for example, should NEVER miss a Leman Russ. I know its a game, but it really breaks my suspension of disbelief for the Tau.
Yep your right. Modern tanks can be moving at top speed and hit everything with perfect accuracy. Heck they have automated guns on US ships now they shoot the head off a guy in a speed boat doing his best to evade fire.
When you play fictional settings like this just throw reality out the window and have fun. If I didn't do this I couldn't ever enjoy anything fictional again.
Edit
I do think GW is a hairsbreadth away from removing non-eldar Xenos and just making 30k Mk2. The next rumored releases after all of these? MORE primarchs from both sides. If this is the case I'm selling my still in box deathwatch I was about to work on. I feel so dirty for contributing to the problem. I guess Age of Sigmar is the only hope for interesting stuff now. I just want them to come out and say Xenos will get stuff this year. Doesn;t have to be specific just say it damn it. All that happens is more and more marines and super marines, and primarchs, and mega deamons primarchs, and super hell mega death jesus primarchs, and so on and so forth until the end of time until the regular space marine is the size of a galaxy.
Rippy wrote: On that note, how would rebelling against the Imperium help to bring the Emperor's vision in to existence?
Removing the High Lords from power and instituting superior policies- policies that are burdened by politics and beaucracies- essentially, the same way the Emperor forged the Imperium to begin with.
It wouldn't be an overnight process, no- it would likely take centuries.
It seems to me that a primarch awaking into a technologically diminished world would not be able to instantly upgrade the marine force. Corvus had trouble just creating normal marines and he had better technological resources than RG has (though Corvus was thwarted by outside interference). I would have thought the Dark Mechanicus, unhindered by Imperial dogma and with direct access to warp technologies, would be the more likely candidates to come up with an improved marine model.
From a purely practical perspective, it seems to me that GW is focusing its model development in proportion to its faction popularity when it may do better to have some variety. Even if you are a Space Marine fan, the standing of the hero is as much a function of the quality of the villain as it is the quality of the hero itself.
That said, if this IS, in fact, the beginning of an Imperial schism, where progressive humanist loyalists to the Imperial Truth make war on the religious zealots of the Imperial Creed, that too could bring some balance. It could, at least, go some way in making marine on marine battles more fluffy and, perhaps, interesting.
poachninja wrote: It seems to me that a primarch awaking into a technologically diminished world would not be able to instantly upgrade the marine force. Corvus had trouble just creating normal marines and he had better technological resources than RG has (though Corvus was thwarted by outside interference). I would have thought the Dark Mechanicus, unhindered by Imperial dogma and with direct access to warp technologies, would be the more likely candidates to come up with an improved marine model.
From a purely practical perspective, it seems to me that GW is focusing its model development in proportion to its faction popularity when it may do better to have some variety. Even if you are a Space Marine fan, the standing of the hero is as much a function of the quality of the villain as it is the quality of the hero itself.
That said, if this IS, in fact, the beginning of an Imperial schism, where progressive humanist loyalists to the Imperial Truth make war on the religious zealots of the Imperial Creed, that too could bring some balance. It could, at least, go some way in making marine on marine battles more fluffy and, perhaps, interesting.
Time skip maybe. Not a big one like maybe 100 to 500 years.
Personally I think all the teeth gnashing we've been seeing over this is a strong support for the argument that a FAAC player is much more dangerous then a WAAC player.
Souleater wrote: This is only going to exacerbate the perception of SM players that Xenos are just there to provide target practice for their Hero Dudesmen.
The reverse is mostly true atm. Rowboat himself sucks comparex to large tau suits
I posted this opinion in news and rumors, but since this the exact same topic I'll post it here too.
I thoroughly disliked the nu-marine concept until I realized that this can give gw some space to make female marines. If they take this "new-old-improved-tech" to expand them to both genders I will totally respect it.
Insectum7 wrote: I posted this opinion in news and rumors, but since this the exact same topic I'll post it here too.
I thoroughly disliked the nu-marine concept until I realized that this can give gw some space to make female marines. If they take this "new-old-improved-tech" to expand them to both genders I will totally respect it.
Oh dear, please don't bring SJW arguments here, there will be no femmarines. Just watch.
Not SJW, just anti asanine. If nu marines turn out to me really just the same old marines but 6" taller with some better stats, I will be sorely disappointed in gw for lack of initiative, creativity, etc.
Female marines at least signals to me that they're serious about expanding their market appeal, which I can't help but respect.
And from a product design perspective I think it'd be really clever. Cater to the hero marine fan boy, and at the same time broaden the appeal of the poster faction for 40k (and GW). That would be some crafty ****.
I'm with insectum7, a little inclusivity isn't going to hurt the game, probably the opposite. Besides, they already showed off female stormcast, and we know these will be space cast Eternals, so I wouldn't find it surprising at all. On that speculation alone, I will revise my opinion from hate it to wait and see
Vaktathi wrote: It's about the most ridiculous way they could have gone about introducing a new Space Marine kit...
Just when I thought 8E was on a great track...it looks like they're gonna be dead set on doing something stupid to the IP that's been keeping the game alive...
I mean...we've had "Space Marines...but better" in various guises for years, and initially their fluff was really good. The Custodes and Grey Knights for example. Then they started to get worse with stuff like 5E Ultramarines fluff. Now we're literally just getting "Bigger Better" marines...?
Like...is GW's dev studio really just that hard up for ideas?
Or they couldn't just rework the SM model line without hamfisting fluff behind it?
Um the fluff does exist. Read Corax's story line. This is possibly the marines that CORAX created back during the horus heresy. They were stronger, faster than the average space marine but they were corrupted by chaos way back. The emperor seemed to have alot more of those things lying around. Or it could possibly be the Thunder Warriors.
We aren't sure.... But I think these are the Corax Marines
Insectum7 wrote: I posted this opinion in news and rumors, but since this the exact same topic I'll post it here too.
I thoroughly disliked the nu-marine concept until I realized that this can give gw some space to make female marines. If they take this "new-old-improved-tech" to expand them to both genders I will totally respect it.
Im gonna stop you RIGHT THERE!
Lets not even open up the can o crap that is the femmarines please, that topic always ends badly.
Insectum7 wrote: I posted this opinion in news and rumors, but since this the exact same topic I'll post it here too.
I thoroughly disliked the nu-marine concept until I realized that this can give gw some space to make female marines. If they take this "new-old-improved-tech" to expand them to both genders I will totally respect it.
Im gonna stop you RIGHT THERE!
AHAHA oh man, that is funny. As soon as I saw fem marines brought up I was waiting for inquisition to show up & say "SHUT IT DOWN!"
No one is opposed to fem marines, its just that the discussion always goes south. I do think women need more representation in 40k, but it should be limited to Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, Assassins, Imperial Guard etc. Until one of the lost primarchs is found & just so happens to be female, it doesn't make sense for them to exist lorewise.
Regarding the new marines, I'm conflicted. The new marines look great but...doesn't this kind of go against the whole "Forget knowledge & understanding, there is only war" theme? I mean if all of the sudden the Imperium comes up with a host of new technology that kind of conflicts with the whole grimdark thing right? GW needs to tread lightly. To many sci-fi settings have attempted to re-brand themselves to attract a wider audience and failed catastrophically. Its why many of us are here and not there.
Not a space marine player but...isn't this going to bring space marine sales to a grinding halt???
Like why would you buy normal space marines right now when the future of these new space marines is unknown? Are they elite like custodes units or do these completely replace normal space marines? Are they limited to Ultramarines? Many questions.
Space Marines but slightly more Space Marined... really? That's lame...
Legendary Primarchs from the ancient war? This is the worst... I want to see the story ADVANCE... not regress...
Introduce NEW people, new HEROES. Make them rise from the struggles of the current time. Make it be from a Ultramarine who was there during the Damocles Campaign against Tau. Who led a small warband deep into the Tau line, only to have the Tau retreat for the Tyranid invasion. As he carved his way thru hordes of Tyranids trying to regroup back to the main force. Cut off from resources and reinforcements. Once successful, he is promoted and made into a standard commander and goes off on other important missions... until he faces a threat too big to handle but DIES HEROICALLY.
That's the gak I want, I don't want to see a 20,000 year old grandpa who emphasizes the idea that nothing will ever really change. That the setting is just an empty performance, with no stakes on anything that happens.
I'm not too bothered by the new Space Marines myself, it's just more Space Marines. Though I wonder if this is just justifying bigger models or a new Elite type unit.. Or faction, hm.
Insectum7 wrote: I posted this opinion in news and rumors, but since this the exact same topic I'll post it here too.
I thoroughly disliked the nu-marine concept until I realized that this can give gw some space to make female marines. If they take this "new-old-improved-tech" to expand them to both genders I will totally respect it.
It does side-step the old 'Marines can only be male' fluff without actually retconning it, which is a huge step up in terms of background writing. I despise retcons for being so damned lazy.
I wonder if Super Marines will be Elites in a Space Marine force but also available in their own Codex? If they don't get their own codex I will be very surprised.
If both of these come to be true I can make a legion of Valkyries to troll my SW mate.
Souleater wrote: This is only going to exacerbate the perception of SM players that Xenos are just there to provide target practice for their Hero Dudesmen.
The reverse is mostly true atm. Rowboat himself sucks comparex to large tau suits
Oh, I play Tyranids. Everyone thinks I am there for Bolterdrill.
I believe these new super space marines will be classed as a separate small faction that can be interwoven with existing Space Marine and Imperial forces. I doubt they will be a wholesale replacement for every space marine because that would cost a huge amount of money for a whole new line and would be a logistical nightmare to do. If it where true then they would have to do the same at some point for chaos. I highly doubt this.
Now focusing on the fluff, they are dusting off some ancient tech knowledge with a bit of forward thinking experimentation to create a stronger force for the Imperium. They could be grown like clones in a process similar to the creation of the primarchs or in a gene enhancing process similar to how Space Marines have been made for centuries. What people over look is that they aren't going to replace every marine in every Chapter for a very long time, unless all the chapters get massacred and can't recruit fast enough to replace the losses. I see this new force as an elite reinforcement army rather than a complete refit.
Don't bring your antifeminist politics here and then complain about other people supposedly bringing politics in to the game.
Just makes you a hypocrite.
Your politics are no less annoying than what you decry as "SJW".
How is it anti-femanist, I am 100% femanist actually. I fully support my wife, and other women who suffer in the work place to due gender politics. It still doesn't mean that women should be in combat positions where they can't make the fitness grade. If they can make it, so be it. It has already been written in to the fluff that women can't be space marines due to the implants, I am sorry our genetic make up is different. That isn't a feminist issue, that is a safety issue. SJWs will fight any fight in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons, just for the sake of fighting. Nice try though mate.
Edit: I was in the military, so maybe I am biased on this one, and look at it from a less naieve position than you?
Edit 2: Infact, SJWs often undermine the femanist movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: I hope the SuperMarines aren't vat grown clones or something, Space Marines are at their most intreasting when they have that connection to humanity
I 100% agree with this, I love that there is still a little humanity at the very base if the metaphorical space marine ice berg of psyche.
I'm not over keen on these new Marines. If they left it at "here's a new armour mark, and a new developed bolter!" that would be fine, for me. We've had that before, and would fit with developing new tech, but still restrained by grimdarkness etc etc.
A full new Space Marine+1 biology? I'm not so sure I like that.
On FemMarines, this is a better way to introduce them that making standard SM mixed gender. If these nu-Marines are mixed gender, I won't complain one bit. I trust they'd be equally as physically capable as their male counterparts, and I think it would work.
However, I personally just don't quite agree with the nu-marines themselves, not because they could be female, but because they seem a little too "oh, the Space Marines are now irrelevant because we have THESE GUYS AND THEY'RE SPECIAL SPACE MARINES+1!" I'm still open to seeing what this holds.
Don't bring your antifeminist politics here and then complain about other people supposedly bringing politics in to the game.
Just makes you a hypocrite.
Your politics are no less annoying than what you decry as "SJW".
How is it anti-femanist, I am 100% femanist actually. I fully support my wife, and other women who suffer in the work place to due gender politics. It still doesn't mean that women should be in combat positions where they can't make the fitness grade. If they can make it, so be it.
It has already been written in to the fluff that women can't be space marines due to the implants, I am sorry our genetic make up is different.
That isn't a feminist issue, that is a safety issue.
SJWs will fight any fight in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons, just for the sake of fighting. Nice try though mate.
Edit: I was in the military, so maybe I am biased on this one, and look at it from a less naieve position than you?
Edit 2: Infact, SJWs often undermine the femanist movement.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: I hope the SuperMarines aren't vat grown clones or something, Space Marines are at their most intreasting when they have that connection to humanity
I 100% agree with this, I love that there is still a little humanity at the very base if the metaphorical space marine ice berg of psyche.
that and all the marines that are most well liked are the ones most humans. what I'd kinda like to see is this maybe being something that can be applied to a normal human. so that the Super Marines aren't children raised up etc, but are the greatest heros of man kind raised up to new heights. yesterdays guardman is tomorrows super soldier!
Giving Grey Knights a pass because they at least have different basic weapons.
But we now have 9, count em freakin' NINE ways to build primarily bolter-armed power armor loyalist infantry available. Chaos Marine players are still converting all the drastically different chaos god aesthetics from one horrible, heavily khorne-themed 3rd or 4th edition plastic kit box. Guard, Eldar, Nids (?), Orks, and Necrons are also all building their basic bread and butter infantry unit from a 3rd/4th era plastic kit, most with absolutely no or minimal variance between the different models or poseability. The only other main faction who's had a basic troop box rework in the span of the last FOUR tactical squad box releases is Tau.
Are we going to see plastic kits for all nine marks of power armor tacticals before GW decides to give a single gak about any other faction in the game? Place your bets, place your bets!
Oooohhh, female Space Marines would be cool. I'd like to have the option of having a solidly female army without having to do SoB. It's always nice to have the option of mixing things up, so I hope they go down that route.
Insectum7 wrote: Not SJW, just anti asanine. If nu marines turn out to me really just the same old marines but 6" taller with some better stats, I will be sorely disappointed in gw for lack of initiative, creativity, etc.
Female marines at least signals to me that they're serious about expanding their market appeal, which I can't help but respect.
And from a product design perspective I think it'd be really clever. Cater to the hero marine fan boy, and at the same time broaden the appeal of the poster faction for 40k (and GW). That would be some crafty ****.
Women in general don't like competitive games they like co-op games, all forcing femarines does is alienate existing customers which are already way down in numbers and skittish.
Look at how disastrous it was for marvels sales when they tried it.
Its fine for men and women to have different hobbies.
Off topic, ALL OF YOU; this isn't about femarines, feminism, or SJW.
It's about some goddamn vatgrown plastic marines, of which IF THEY ARE INDEED VATGROWN which I suspect, they would have no gender features beyond those associated with any process that brings about the most desired soldier machine features, like a gak ton of testoserone.
I also think the technology is likely associated with what Corax worked with in attempting to revive his legion. Time will tell, but I question if Chaos will have their own version of them? Are they immune to Chaos like the GK?
Talamare wrote: Introduce NEW people, new HEROES. Make them rise from the struggles of the current time. Make it be from a Ultramarine who was there during the Damocles Campaign against Tau. Who led a small warband deep into the Tau line, only to have the Tau retreat for the Tyranid invasion. As he carved his way thru hordes of Tyranids trying to regroup back to the main force. Cut off from resources and reinforcements. Once successful, he is promoted and made into a standard commander and goes off on other important missions... until he faces a threat too big to handle but DIES HEROICALLY.
That's the gak I want, I don't want to see a 20,000 year old grandpa who emphasizes the idea that nothing will ever really change. That the setting is just an empty performance, with no stakes on anything that happens.
Agree 100%. In fact, reading this made me a little sad for the epic stories of heroic yet ultimately ineffective sacrifice against an indomitable enemy that I doubt we'll ever get to see.
Instead, uber jesus Mk. II is leading an uber army or uber marines (who are already uber humans) against what is supposed to be a virtually unbeatable enemy, but even with the practically omniscient characters on their side will still get pwned by the power of HUMANITY! YEAH!
Quickjager wrote: Off topic, ALL OF YOU; this isn't about femarines, feminism, or SJW.
It's about some goddamn vatgrown plastic marines, of which IF THEY ARE INDEED VATGROWN which I suspect, they would have no gender features beyond those associated with any process that brings about the most desired soldier machine features, like a gak ton of testoserone.
I also think the technology is likely associated with what Corax worked with in attempting to revive his legion. Time will tell, but I question if Chaos will have their own version of them? Are they immune to Chaos like the GK?
Yeah but you brought it up lol, its like a can on worms man, the second you mention it BAM! it blows up.
Rippy wrote: Oh dear, please don't bring SJW arguments here
Ahah you wrote “SJW” .
Rippy wrote: How is it anti-femanist, I am 100% femanist actually.
Yes, YES, you are very femanist, you are such a femanist that you think femane should be allowed to vote! You like femane very much.
Rippy wrote: It still doesn't mean that women should be in combat positions where they can't make the fitness grade. If they can make it, so be it.
So, you are talking about the fact that female made-up marine-ier marine that are made using dark magic and seem vat-grown or something from the video should only be in combat position if they can make the fitness grade?
I smell someone trying to bring real-world politics into the discussion lol. That's the femanist guy if you are wondering.
Rippy wrote: It has already been written in to the fluff that women can't be space marines due to the implants, I am sorry our genetic make up is different.
Yeah but why couldn't they be turned into space marines ++, that use different implants, beside of course the fact you hate the idea of having powerful women characters in 40k, you silly femanist ?
Rippy wrote: That isn't a feminist issue, that is a safety issue.
Safety issue? In the Imperium? I smell femanist bias!
Rippy wrote: SJWs will fight any fight in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons, just for the sake of fighting. Nice try though mate.
Unlike brave femanists like you, who will bravely fight for the safety issue of woman space marines++ that should be kept out of combat roles because you decided that they couldn't pass the fitness grave despite them not even existing.
You sure know how to pick your femanist fights!
Rippy wrote: Edit: I was in the military, so maybe I am biased on this one, and look at it from a less naieve position than you?
No, it's more about you being a femanist. Tons of people are in the military and yet are still able to tell the difference between 40k and the real world. And I suppose that when you are not trying to prove your femanist point against SJW, you are too. Sadly, here, you were trying to prove your femanist point.
hobojebus wrote: all forcing femarines does is alienate existing customers
Only the kind of femanist customers that are alienated by the idea that there are women in their armies. How do you sleep at night knowing of Shadowsun, Jain-Zar etc?
I really don't need to prove myself to you Hybrid. My wife proudly calls me a feminist, she is one of the most active feminists I know, and she can happily admit that women are not strong enough for special forces around the world.
If you are making the best of the best, you would chose the genetically stronger. I wouldn't care about there being female space marines, it just doesn't make sense to me. Look at special forces from around the world. There is no need to be offended.
I am not strong enough to be in the special forces, I don't think I could be physically capable, though at the current standard for most militaries around the world, only men ARE strong enough. This is not offensive, so crawl back in to your hole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Eldar aren't human, so why would anyone question any of them genetically based on gender?
Automatically Appended Next Post: On that note, it does depend on how these are created. If they are vat grown, they really shouldn't have any genders, or both genders so they can reproduce.
If it is old school style of implants, then put in the vats, there is a massively high failure rate as it is.
Your'e the one bringing politics in. If you don't want to talk politics, then don't bring it up. People can like the idea of female Space Marines without being political, and again, you're being a massive hypocrite here with your arguments.
You know what sounds like a great idea? Not bringing up this topic, i think we should do that, lets not bring this up and or move it to another thread as it has nothing to do with the original topic at all.
If you all wanna swing your internet epeen around please do so in private messages, chat rooms, or in an off topic thread.
Melissia wrote: Your'e the one bringing politics in. If you don't want to talk politics, then don't bring it up. People can like the idea of female Space Marines without being political, and again, you're being a massive hypocrite here with your arguments.
I will defend myself if attacked. And yeah, people can like it with no logic, but I am pointing out the logic. Why would my words affect them anyway?
Also I don't think you know what the word hypocrit means?
Melissia wrote: Your'e the one bringing politics in. If you don't want to talk politics, then don't bring it up. People can like the idea of female Space Marines without being political, and again, you're being a massive hypocrite here with your arguments.
I will defend myself if attacked. And yeah, people can like it with no logic, but I am pointing out the logic. Why would my words affect them anyway?
Also I don't think you know what the word hypocrit means?
Ok thats cool, good for you and good for the other guy, you both have opinions on a subject or topic, that envokes feelings of emotions that are relatable to the human condition.
YEAH!
