Meh, personally I have never been a fan of the punk/bands aesthetics, only the Redeemers.
But I'm glad for the people that really like it. I'm here, waiting for a new Mordheim. Frostgrave can do the trick but... Mordheim is Mordheim
If the gangs do all get plastic kits, that could be very interesting. A lot of potential for conversions and alternative models for chaos cultists, genestealer neophytes, imperial guardsmen and inquisitorial acolytes. Hopefully they update the styles a bit though.
Nostromodamus wrote: Necromunda with all OG gangs getting plastics? Much skepticism here...
That would be six gangs right?
Right now we have four plastic bloodbowl teams released with a fifth confirmed and I'd be stunned if we didn't get one plastic elf team.
I don't think it's a crazy stretch.
I suppose we could see the rulebook being reprinted (or being repurposed as a supplement for Shadow War), and perhaps an On Demand release of the gangs, but a boxed game? I don't think so.
To be really honest, I'd like to see it released, but not with the same six House gangs. Set it in a different Hive - move it to Trazior hive, invent six new Houses (no new rules required; the only rules difference was which skill table each gang had total access to) and that way there's something for new and old fans to get excited about.
This doesn't really fit with GW that well though. Unless they go a Blood Bowl route (which would be sad, because feth resin). Necromunda starts as one big box, but there would be a large amount of support models necessary.
Yeah, doubt it, at least the time slot. BB and SW prpbably guarantee a bigger plastic range for any planned SGs, though.
Give me the original gang designs (not the ugly SG ones) in plastic and some Redemptionists, bounty hunters and the undead rat in any medium and I'll add everthing to the pile'o'shame in double or tripple quantities.
CragHack wrote: Does that mean SW:A will only be just another cash grab like Kill Team was?
It was a stand alone game, a rulebook of 200 pages for 30 euros. Osprey puts stand alone rulebooks that are very fun for 16 euros for like 60 pages. How is that a cash grab?
Being a critical customer is a good thing, but sometimes we just ask for impossibles.
Wouldn't surprise me. What I was thinking is:
Copyright only holds so long for unsupported material. All the old specialist games should be popping soon. If they give a quick re-release that copyright gets held for another couple decades, no third parties can produce "Necromunda".
As for a fully fleshed out release and lots of support, probably unlikely.
Funny how many comments on here so confidently state this isn't a possibility when GW themselves have stated publicly the Specialist Games Studio was started to rerelease Specialist Games, and GW employees have openly stated Necromunda will be released through Specialist Games Studio. The only actual question was when.
PourSpelur wrote: Wouldn't surprise me. What I was thinking is:
Copyright only holds so long for unsupported material. All the old specialist games should be popping soon. If they give a quick re-release that copyright gets held for another couple decades, no third parties can produce "Necromunda".
As for a fully fleshed out release and lots of support, probably unlikely.
This sounds reasonable. So a limited box run and the old models so that forgery world can't legally start pumping out resin Escher.
Starfarer wrote: Funny how many comments on here so confidently state this isn't a possibility when GW themselves have stated publicly the Specialist Games Studio was started to rerelease Specialist Games, and GW employees have openly stated Necromunda will be released through Specialist Games Studio. The only actual question was when.
No-one's saying it's impossible. They're saying the publication schedule has already been discussed by GW and FW staff, and they've said that Adeptus Titanicus is next and it's been delayed until 2018.
Of course, things change, but the point is there's nothing been said to suggest that. Yet.
As for copyright, I didn't think the publication status of the work affect the copyright term; it's 70 years from publication, so the copyright on the Necromunda 1st edition rulebook and miniatures will expire in 2065 or thereabouts. There might be other IP issues (if it were a novel, the rights to publish Necromunda would probably have reverted to the author by now), but I don't think you even need to sell the items publically to "refresh" those; do a print run of three copies and keep 'em in the company archive, that'll do.
CragHack wrote: Does that mean SW:A will only be just another cash grab like Kill Team was?
It was a stand alone game, a rulebook of 200 pages for 30 euros. Osprey puts stand alone rulebooks that are very fun for 16 euros for like 60 pages. How is that a cash grab?
Being a critical customer is a good thing, but sometimes we just ask for impossibles.
I could just write a wall of text, why I would could and do call it a cash grab, but I'm too lazy to argue on the internets. Though my point was that I wouldn't like to see it discontinued, like they did with Kill Team. It's just not nice.
How is a product which was originally only meant to be a bonus for those who purchased the Sector Mechanicus bundle, but was extended to a full release after overwhelming demand by GW's customer base a 'cash grab'?
CragHack wrote: Does that mean SW:A will only be just another cash grab like Kill Team was?
It was a stand alone game, a rulebook of 200 pages for 30 euros. Osprey puts stand alone rulebooks that are very fun for 16 euros for like 60 pages. How is that a cash grab?
Being a critical customer is a good thing, but sometimes we just ask for impossibles.
I could just write a wall of text, why I would could and do call it a cash grab, but I'm too lazy to argue on the internets. Though my point was that I wouldn't like to see it discontinued, like they did with Kill Team. It's just not nice.
I can understand that, they don't need to discontinued it now that they have the rulebook separated.
That's the first thing I thought. Need more chicks to go with the wargames exclusive cars. In fact I had been planning on dusting off necromunda, ash wastes, and GorkaMorka to use for my regular weekly RPG game and would be deep into the swing come Christmas. Go GW!
Starfarer wrote: Funny how many comments on here so confidently state this isn't a possibility when GW themselves have stated publicly the Specialist Games Studio was started to rerelease Specialist Games, and GW employees have openly stated Necromunda will be released through Specialist Games Studio. The only actual question was when.
No-one's saying it's impossible. They're saying the publication schedule has already been discussed by GW and FW staff, and they've said that Adeptus Titanicus is next and it's been delayed until 2018.
Of course, things change, but the point is there's nothing been said to suggest that. Yet.
No, Adeptus Titanicus was next, and then was delayed so they could put it out in plastic and not resin. They never gave any indication that they wouldn't release anything in place of that. You're making assumptions that because they said it was next that remains the case even though it was delayed.
Things do change and this thread is suggesting that is the case.
PourSpelur wrote: Wouldn't surprise me. What I was thinking is:
Copyright only holds so long for unsupported material. All the old specialist games should be popping soon. If they give a quick re-release that copyright gets held for another couple decades, no third parties can produce "Necromunda".
As for a fully fleshed out release and lots of support, probably unlikely.
No, that's just factually wrong. Copyrights last for decades whether or not the work in in print.
You may be thinking of Trademarks which do expire if there's no product being produced. That was/is the question about the new Hero Quest and Space Crusade games. Although GW has produced and marked Necromunda stuff as recently as 2011 as well as whatever comics or video games they've put out.
Anyway... of two minds. I spend a bloody fortune on Necro models the last few years and love some of the designs - Redemptionists, Pit Slaves, Enforcers. Not too impressed with the original gangs, Orlocks are nice generic future gangers, Van Sarr are good post-apoclyptic figures but some of the designs are pretty dreadful. The sculpts and poses were good but you'd lose some of that in multipost plastics. But more mutlipart plastics are always good news.
Motograter wrote: Unlikely. Titanicus is next. GW said themselves plus stuff has been seen.
While itd be cool its unlikely
Could be that the delay of Titanicus has made change of plans there. They need some more work to get titanicus up to level they want after interest made them upscale goals while necromunda didn't so no point delaying it just to have it come after titanicus.
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Elbows wrote: This doesn't really fit with GW that well though. Unless they go a Blood Bowl route (which would be sad, because feth resin). Necromunda starts as one big box, but there would be a large amount of support models necessary.
Umm all SG games will be big box, maybe some plastic support but mostly beyond box it's resin. So for necromunda plastic 6 core teams, all additional models resins fit quite well to new SG's strategy.
And as for resin. If the models are designed to take advantage of it good. Superior details over plastic is nice.
It would be an auto-buy for me. I have tons of Necromunda models already and it holds my fondest gaming memories. I would love for it to come back big time.
I really hope this is true, I'd love to see Necromunda come back with some new models. I wouldn't be surprised if SG put out a boxed before Christmas to fill the void left by Titanicus. I remember hearing that Necro was next anyways, so maybe they had the ability to bump it up in the queue.
Or maybe they saw how well SWA sold and decided that Necromunda would also likely be a very profitable release prior to Christmas. And I imagine a Necromunda redux with plastic gangs would outsell Titanicus by a very, very, large margin judging on how much community support still exists for it.
This does sound likely. Maybe even a GW Studio product? Done by the same people who made the Overkill/A:EF/HH games and miniatures? The terrain is now available. 6 plastic gangs shouldnt be that hard for the main studio miniature designers, with most of the weapons already done for the GSC hybrid kit.
And similiar to Shadow War terrain which came as a surprise although we had hints via FW/Specialist design studio we never know how far advanced such projects already are.
The crane kit makes it seem they still have resources and time available for designing 'niche' products (which then sell very well - surprise, surprise).
Could be good. But I'm only interested if we actually get the classic gangs in a classic look. Human models along the lines of Chaos and Genestealer cultists and not those beefed up monstrosities Age of Sigmar gets.
I'd also very much like for the game rules to be updated in quality (minor improvements, which is all Necromunda needs, and clear and unambiguous wording) but that the classic gameplay is preserved. I'm not impressed with Shadow War Armageddon. While it makes sense in context, dropping campaign economy and streamlining campaign rules to death is not to my taste.
Honestly I have my doubts modern GW can recreate the charm of the original. But we'll see.
The core rules of Shadow War are almost universally an improvement on Necromunda (I'd bring back the rules for catching fire, that's all that's missing). It's the campaign rules that need to go back to their roots.
As for minis, like I said I'd prefer new houses. I've already got plenty of Escher, Delagues and Cawdor, so I don't really want any more. new models, on the other hand, are always welcome. Updates of some of the pre-Necromunda Confrontation gangs, perhaps? The brat gangers were pretty cool, for example.
Confrontation had a really cool Class Warfare theme - Brat Gangs (rich), techno (middle class), Scav (poor) and I'd love to see that back.
So what the heck, my wish list:
Brat Gangs (replacing spryers, rich, best gear, good henchmen, crap morale and skills)
Techno Gangs (a more cyber version of Van Sarr, good gear, reasonable morale)
Worker Gangs (all-arounders, updated Orlocks)
Scav Gangs (crap gear, great morale, sneaky)
Redemptionists (Fearless, fire, bold)
Cults (genestealer or chaos, either/or/both)
Both cults is best; then you can have the Hive Primus People's Front and the People's Front of Hive Primus fighting each other (as well as asking what the Imperium ever did for them).
Confrontation-era scavvies weren't quite as wretched as the ones in Necromunda, as I recall.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The core rules of Shadow War are almost universally an improvement on Necromunda (I'd bring back the rules for catching fire, that's all that's missing). It's the campaign rules that need to go back to their roots.
As for minis, like I said I'd prefer new houses. I've already got plenty of Escher, Delagues and Cawdor, so I don't really want any more. new models, on the other hand, are always welcome. Updates of some of the pre-Necromunda Confrontation gangs, perhaps? The brat gangers were pretty cool, for example.
Then it would be logical to release a necromunda expansion for shadow war
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Confrontation had a really cool Class Warfare theme - Brat Gangs (rich), techno (middle class), Scav (poor) and I'd love to see that back.
So what the heck, my wish list:
Brat Gangs (replacing spryers, rich, best gear, good henchmen, crap morale and skills)
Techno Gangs (a more cyber version of Van Sarr, good gear, reasonable morale)
Worker Gangs (all-arounders, updated Orlocks)
Scav Gangs (crap gear, great morale, sneaky)
Redemptionists (Fearless, fire, bold)
Cults (genestealer or chaos, either/or/both)
I loved Necromunda back in the day, but I don't think my club will really be into it.. ya never know though. I think as far as skirmish games go they will be more into SWA since we can all use minis from our regular collections. I'll definitely be checking it out either way though, too bad I sold all my Delaque minis a little while ago :(
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Confrontation had a really cool Class Warfare theme - Brat Gangs (rich), techno (middle class), Scav (poor) and I'd love to see that back.
So what the heck, my wish list:
Brat Gangs (replacing spryers, rich, best gear, good henchmen, crap morale and skills)
Techno Gangs (a more cyber version of Van Sarr, good gear, reasonable morale)
Worker Gangs (all-arounders, updated Orlocks)
Scav Gangs (crap gear, great morale, sneaky)
Redemptionists (Fearless, fire, bold)
Cults (genestealer or chaos, either/or/both)
Then it wouldn't really be Necromunda.
This is one of my longest and biggest points of criticism when it comes to GW. I'm not opposed to new things. By all means make supplements with new gangs and settings. Evidently there are people who will be happy with them. I could be happy with them. But I want to have the basics covered first. Classic gangs with reasonably complete model support before any new toys are released.
Else you end up with, yeah, I'm gonna go there, the Sisters of Battle problem. Yay! We're getting new Marines! Again! Who needs a basic plastic kit for Sisters anyway?
Necromunda, just like 40k, comes with a legacy and a promise. If GW were to get the foundation in place, they could release pink unicorn gangs afterwards for all I care. But always going for the new kits instead of getting basic kits out for more neglected lines as they have been doing is something I cannot get behind.
Vorian wrote: I'm sure the rerelease of Necromunda will actually involve the stuff from Necromunda
Humbug! I shall suffer no Necromunda in my Necromunda. GW had better beware or come to know the true meaning of boycott!
Given the surprise popularity of SW:A, I can totally see them doing a supplement of some sort in the XMas time frame. I could even see that supplement covering gangs in the underhive.
However, bringing back a boxed game that essentially competes for the same market segment? No.
schoon wrote: Given the surprise popularity of SW:A, I can totally see them doing a supplement of some sort in the XMas time frame. I could even see that supplement covering gangs in the underhive.
However, bringing back a boxed game that essentially competes for the same market segment? No.
Why compete?SWA Box is oop and I bet they already Sold 90% of the Books.
Brat Gangs (replacing spryers, rich, best gear, good henchmen, crap morale and skills)
Techno Gangs (a more cyber version of Van Sarr, good gear, reasonable morale)
Worker Gangs (all-arounders, updated Orlocks)
Scav Gangs (crap gear, great morale, sneaky)
Redemptionists (Fearless, fire, bold)
Cults (genestealer or chaos, either/or/both)
You have my vote.
Add in more plastic terrain, vehicles, mechanicus cults, death cults, rioting citizens and updated classic gangs
Spoiler:
and we have a setting I would be willing to spend several thousands on...
Bottle wrote: It would be an auto-buy for me. I have tons of Necromunda models already and it holds my fondest gaming memories. I would love for it to come back big time.
I have friends that have been out of the H-H-Hobyy for longer than I, that would gladly throw money at a new Necromunda - Heck, last month I finished off a GorkMorka game that had people that had left GW for ten years and more.
The Auld Grump - ironically, the woman that won the campaign was completely new to tabletop gaming - but being an Ork comes naturally to her.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The core rules of Shadow War are almost universally an improvement on Necromunda (I'd bring back the rules for catching fire, that's all that's missing). It's the campaign rules that need to go back to their roots.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The core rules of Shadow War are almost universally an improvement on Necromunda (I'd bring back the rules for catching fire, that's all that's missing). It's the campaign rules that need to go back to their roots.
Aren't they largely a copy/paste?
iirc they fixed a few things that was a major issue from old necromunda but is there anything wrong with bringing in things that used to work and fixing things that didnt?
"I have heard that it could be Guilliman returned TRUE in some form of dreadnought like suit/armour FALSE"
So 50/50 so far.
Actually, the Guilliman armour is a kind of vital support in the lore, so in some form is like a Dreadnought armour in the sense that it keeps the owner alive.
"I have heard that it could be Guilliman returned TRUE in some form of dreadnought like suit/armour FALSE"
So 50/50 so far.
Actually, the Guilliman armour is a kind of vital support in the lore, so in some form is like a Dreadnought armour in the sense that it keeps the owner alive.
Yeah, but that's not what it says. I understand that argument, but his armor is nothing like a dreadnought. If it had said 'life support' armor or something, I could have bought it.
I mean, compare G to a dread and a marine, which does he look like?
The specialist games group isn't really that secretive. Stuff like titanicus, blood bowl, Horus heresy, and silver tower was announced and teased for almost a year. So a necromunda release is either a quick fire and forget box set SWA or gorechosen or this rumour is false.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Confrontation had a really cool Class Warfare theme - Brat Gangs (rich), techno (middle class), Scav (poor) and I'd love to see that back.
So what the heck, my wish list:
Brat Gangs (replacing spryers, rich, best gear, good henchmen, crap morale and skills)
Techno Gangs (a more cyber version of Van Sarr, good gear, reasonable morale)
Worker Gangs (all-arounders, updated Orlocks)
Scav Gangs (crap gear, great morale, sneaky)
Redemptionists (Fearless, fire, bold)
Cults (genestealer or chaos, either/or/both)
Then it wouldn't really be Necromunda.
I disagree. It would be Necromunda, but now the setting has expanded in scope. I can still use my existing Hive Primus Hive City House gangs, but there's something new for me to buy; everyone benefits.
If they just made new plastic versions of the existing six houses, I wouldn't buy anything.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The core rules of Shadow War are almost universally an improvement on Necromunda (I'd bring back the rules for catching fire, that's all that's missing). It's the campaign rules that need to go back to their roots.
Aren't they largely a copy/paste?
iirc they fixed a few things that was a major issue from old necromunda but is there anything wrong with bringing in things that used to work and fixing things that didnt?
Necromunda Community Edition exists, is free, and has done that already:
lord_blackfang wrote: I think for a few people it wouldn't be Necromunda unless GW bought all the original books on eBay and repackaged them.
Thats the bad thing about Nostalgia. People want to buy a new version of something that they already have. Personally I think both things can be done, new sculpts for the former gangs but new gangs too to expand the setting and catter to people that don't want to re-buy things they already have.
To me in general the look of all the original Necromunda gangs, the "House X" are atrocious, but is just a personal taste thing, I don't like the "Punk" aesthetic. Redeemers and Arbiters in the other hand, they are pretty sweet.
But this comes down to the same reason why I like Mordheim more than Necromunda. Necromunda is just humans, or mutated humans in a galaxy so full of variety it looks like a waste.
AndrewGPaul wrote: If they just made new plastic versions of the existing six houses, I wouldn't buy anything.
I'd buy everything. New Necromunda miniatures that could be easily converted? The idea of being able to do lots of new weapon combinations without the need to cut-up metal models? New poses?
I could finally do a Van Saar gang, and do a Cawdor gang that isn't full of rifles.
I'm sceptical that GW would release 6 full plastic kits for a niche specialist game. Particularly given that Necromunda is a game that is very much of its time and highly derivative of 40k's 2000AD influences. I think that GW and 40k are in a different place now so re-releasing Necromunda would simply be an attempt to cash in on the nostalgia factor.
Also, it would presumably be a Shadow War supplement rather than a standalone re-release? Again, I'm sceptical that GW would release two versions of what are ultimately the same ruleset.
Indeed, I think tje success of blood bowl, particularly when combined with the surprise success of, and demand for shafoe war had changed gow specialist games are going to he approached now.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Confrontation had a really cool Class Warfare theme - Brat Gangs (rich), techno (middle class), Scav (poor) and I'd love to see that back.
So what the heck, my wish list:
Brat Gangs (replacing spryers, rich, best gear, good henchmen, crap morale and skills)
Techno Gangs (a more cyber version of Van Sarr, good gear, reasonable morale)
Worker Gangs (all-arounders, updated Orlocks)
Scav Gangs (crap gear, great morale, sneaky)
Redemptionists (Fearless, fire, bold)
Cults (genestealer or chaos, either/or/both)
Then it wouldn't really be Necromunda.
I respectfully disagree. I've got the original game, read some of the novels and comics and honestly the original 6 don't interest me. They're too 80s movie and not really grimdark or science fictiony. And really down't have enough to distinguish them from each other. For me Confrontation and Outlanders really had the more interesting gangs.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Confrontation had a really cool Class Warfare theme - Brat Gangs (rich), techno (middle class), Scav (poor) and I'd love to see that back.
So what the heck, my wish list:
Brat Gangs (replacing spryers, rich, best gear, good henchmen, crap morale and skills)
Techno Gangs (a more cyber version of Van Sarr, good gear, reasonable morale)
Worker Gangs (all-arounders, updated Orlocks)
Scav Gangs (crap gear, great morale, sneaky)
Redemptionists (Fearless, fire, bold)
Cults (genestealer or chaos, either/or/both)
Then it wouldn't really be Necromunda.
I respectfully disagree. I've got the original game, read some of the novels and comics and honestly the original 6 don't interest me. They're too 80s movie and not really grimdark or science fictiony. And really down't have enough to distinguish them from each other. For me Confrontation and Outlanders really had the more interesting gangs.
Your milage may vary of course.
The original aesthetics and lore were a large part of the draw for me and a flat out departure from that would definitely mean I would probably skip a new release and just round up more of the old materials.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I respectfully disagree. I've got the original game, read some of the novels and comics and honestly the original 6 don't interest me. They're too 80s movie and not really grimdark or science fictiony. And really down't have enough to distinguish them from each other. For me Confrontation and Outlanders really had the more interesting gangs.
Then you prefer the Confrontation fluff, not the Necromunda fluff. If they brought back Necromunda I'd expect it to be Necromunda. It would be weird for me to criticise a new Necromunda for not being Confrontation in the same way it would be weird to wish a new Necromunda wasn't Necromunda and was, in fact, Confrontation.
AndrewGPaul wrote: If they just made new plastic versions of the existing six houses, I wouldn't buy anything.
I'd buy everything. New Necromunda miniatures that could be easily converted? The idea of being able to do lots of new weapon combinations without the need to cut-up metal models? New poses?
I could finally do a Van Saar gang, and do a Cawdor gang that isn't full of rifles.
Plastic hanger kits would be very nice, but not if they're just the same factions. I already have all theEscher I need, and new ones wouldn't match; they'd be different gangs, so the fluff might as well respect that.
AndrewGPaul wrote: If they just made new plastic versions of the existing six houses, I wouldn't buy anything.
I'd buy everything. New Necromunda miniatures that could be easily converted? The idea of being able to do lots of new weapon combinations without the need to cut-up metal models? New poses?
I could finally do a Van Saar gang, and do a Cawdor gang that isn't full of rifles.
Plastic hanger kits would be very nice, but not if they're just the same factions. I already have all theEscher I need, and new ones wouldn't match; they'd be different gangs, so the fluff might as well respect that.
I don't
Cawdor, Orlocks and Goliaths, sorta Van Saar can be build easily. But plastic Esher would be so, so good for Guard, Inquisition, NPCs, etc..
Binabik15 wrote: Cawdor, Orlocks and Goliaths, sorta Van Saar can be build easily. But plastic Esher would be so, so good for Guard, Inquisition, NPCs, etc..
In that case they might as well just release a box set of "female underhive fighters" and not bother with Necromunda. If they make new Escher models, then it's almost certain they'll be different in style - the guns will be updated to match the modern look, for example, and the details will be different due to being multi-part plastic (I didn't like combining the metal and plastic Orlocks and Goliaths in the same gang, and they were designed alongside the metal ones). Enough that they won't fit in with the gang I already have. In that case, for me, they might as well expand the setting and simply make them a new House from Trazior Hive or somesuch.
They could revive the metals in resin for those who just want the old stuff again and put out a new range so that the people who already have old gangs have something new to buy.
Put the existing background (the actual Hive Primus-specific stuff wasn't much - a page on the hive itself, half a page per House) plus new material (just reprint the article in WD 130, job's a good 'un). The Skull is a good place to set it. It's a ruined hive that's been abandoned since an Ork invasion was fought off (retconned, sadly, into happening before the Heresy, but that can be worked around), so there's room for gangs from Hive Primus and elsewhere, plus weird mutant denizens, aliens, etc.
Anyway, I'm derailing this thread to no use, so I'll stop banging this drum.
Going by previous experience, really. When Specialist Games released new Orlocks, Goliaths and Ratskins, they looked different. The new Blood Bowl humans and Orks look different (and not just because they're bigger). Genestealer cultists and harlequins are similar to the older models, but again, sufficiently different that I don't like combining old and new in the same unit.
Small things, like the weapons being tweaked to look like the current style, is enough to annoy me. I appreciate that this won't bother others. It bugged me enough that I bought half a dozen of the weapon upgrade packs so I could convert models using the "Goodwin-pattern" lasguns and autoguns the Escher used, rather than the Imperial Guard-style ones that most other Houses used.
Basically, I and everyone I know has plenty of Necromunda gang models already, so the draw of a new game simply including more of them isn't as strong as a new game which widens the setting. You probably disagree, which is fair enough.
Anyway, I've spent my last few posts wishlisting, which I'm sure isn't really allowed, so I'd better stop.
I would say it's almost certain that Necromunda release will comprise of the Necromunda houses in exactly the same style.
I'm pretty sure I remember Atia saying we'd hear about specialist game's next release at Warhammer Fest, so I would imagine if it's to be released at Christmas then we'll be hearing an announcement at the end of the month
Edit: I'd describe RGs armour right now as Dreadnaught like. That rumour is True/True
Edit: I'd describe RGs armour right now as Dreadnaught like. That rumour is True/True
Does it have a spin cycle? Heat settings? Those are his arms and legs in the arm and leg sleeves aren't they? So Not a marine dreadnought .
pretre has done this rumor tracking for a while now and has it pretty good. I think we can let his standard be the one he judges by instead of doing it by committee
It's armour that helps keep him alive like a Dreadnaught keeps its occupant alive.
Not that'd I'd ever suggest pretre isn't an infallible deity... that rumour is just correct. It's no big deal, it just makes the tracker less accurate and it's a good resource.
I'd be in for the rules (and they'll obviously repackage some SWA terrain if they did) but I simply won't buy full resin ganger groups...Forgeworld's resin work is pretty terrible (and expensive for what you get).
So without proper plastic/metal support this just wouldn't be a huge watershed for me. I already have the "current" rules from Yaktribe etc.
After reading the carrion throne I'm salivating at a new necromunda game. I would be slightly disappointed if it was identical to the old gangs and settings. Now if it was set in the warrens of terra I would cry with joy for a week
CragHack wrote: Does that mean SW:A will only be just another cash grab like Kill Team was?
It was a stand alone game, a rulebook of 200 pages for 30 euros. Osprey puts stand alone rulebooks that are very fun for 16 euros for like 60 pages. How is that a cash grab?
Being a critical customer is a good thing, but sometimes we just ask for impossibles.
I could just write a wall of text, why I would could and do call it a cash grab, but I'm too lazy to argue on the internets. Though my point was that I wouldn't like to see it discontinued, like they did with Kill Team. It's just not nice.
Does this mean that 40k 8th edition will be just another cash grab like 40k 7th edition?
Knockagh wrote: After reading the carrion throne I'm salivating at a new necromunda game. I would be slightly disappointed if it was identical to the old gangs and settings. Now if it was set in the warrens of terra I would cry with joy for a week
Again though, that's not Necromunda. Necromunda isn't just a set of skirmish rules, it's a setting, an actual literal location.
Now, personally, I wouldn't mind them introducing some of the Confrontation elements into things, but if they're going to sell a box with "Necromunda" on the front and try to sell it to folk as the return of a beloved classic, it should actually be the return of a beloved classic not a vaguely-related-by-game-mechanics ripoff set on an entirely different planet or with entirely new factions right off the bat.
If GW or FW want to offer me the chance to buy a modern Brats gang I will be all over that, but only if they do justice to the classic setting and gangs first.
Yodhrin wrote: Necromunda isn't just a set of skirmish rules, it's a setting, an actual literal location.
Strong point.
The same thing applies - probably even moreso - to Mordheim. I am excited for AoS skirmish ... but it won't be Mordheim. Similarly, SWA is not Necromunda. When I hear that Necomunda will return, I want it to actually be Necromunda.
judgedoug wrote: Does this mean that 40k 8th edition will be just another cash grab like 40k 7th edition?
Grocery store selling bread - just another cashgrab!
Knockagh wrote: After reading the carrion throne I'm salivating at a new necromunda game. I would be slightly disappointed if it was identical to the old gangs and settings. Now if it was set in the warrens of terra I would cry with joy for a week
Necromunda is an actual setting within the 40k universe.. it has it's own lore and everything.
I know.. let's reboot Gorkamorka.. but.. nobody likes Orks anymore.. so we'll just use Tau.. and.. hm... we need to put it on a planet that isn't all desert so it's more interesting.. Oooh.. a Deathworld.. but it's still Gorkamorka.. oh wait but those types of mechanics are dated too.. so.. let's scrap that and now we'll use specialty dice with explosion symbols.. oh.. and tiny little cards that are extremely impractical to handle, shuffle, read, or store.. needs tons of those.. OH, maybe we should make everything cards and forego the miniatures.. I mean.. nobody even builds models anymore. In fact, we could make it a tablet game, that's what's hot right now!
Sorry Knockagh, that wasn't just aimed at you but all this crap I am seeing from everyone. Ya want a new game.. there's loads of them out there. People aren't excited about specialist games coming back because they expect everything to be different. They want them to come back because it's the parts of the GW lore that got in-between the lines and were super interesting. Is there room for some of the other stuff people think would be neat? Sure, but everyone that is acting like nothing from the original should survive aren't the main crowd for this IMO... and frankly it's a bit selfish (and really dickish if we're being honest) to deprive the people who ARE nostalgic for it just so you guys can have something new and different.
ALSO.. if "anything" would make you cry for a week.. for any reason.. joy included, you might want to get help.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh.. also
For everyone that DOES want gang fights just not in Necromunda.. Check out Void or Urban Mammoth. Seriously it's probably exactly what you want. There's a few others out there and The Drowned Earth KS just wrapped up.. and it's along those lines too.. so.. you have options..
Would we still have this ridiculous discussion that Necromunda isn't Necromunda unless it's happening on Necromunda if GW hadn't unfortunately named the game after the location it was set in?
Just imagine... if it had been called Gang War 40k. Would you still have a leg to stand on, if the name is all you're basing this on?
Or, if GW released a game that was set on Necromunda but used X-wing mechanics... would that be Necromunda then, by your logic?
judgedoug wrote: Does this mean that 40k 8th edition will be just another cash grab like 40k 7th edition?
Grocery store selling bread - just another cashgrab!
No but selling Italian bread (the same bread with sesame seeds stuck to it) sue is a cash grab
what is a sesame anyway?
I don't think anyone really knows.
We never let the seeds grow into a full sesame.
If we keep his up all the sesame will be gone, and in five years we'll all say "What the happened to all the sesame seeds? My buns are blank."
McDonalds will have to change their theme song to "two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles on a ------- bun."
-Mitch Hedberg- Commedian- may he rest in peace ( look him up, he was funny, and acted in a few shows) sorry for the derail resume standard bickering mode
Lockark wrote: Esher could be very interesting from a converstion standpoint since they would be the 1st human female models done in plastic by GW.
Not quite! Inquisitor Greyfax, Saint Celestine and the two Geminae got in first >
Technically Sisters of Silence were even earlier.
But that doesn't detract from Escher adding additional, much needed plastic female humans that could be useful for all manner of things.
Ahem, actually the plastic immolator saw 2/3 of a plastic female human
The Witch elves and Sisters of Averlorn would say hi, but I assume you mean "the 1st human female models done in plastic by GW... for 40K". And yes, elves aren't human, but from a conversion standpoint they're bloody close enough!
lord_blackfang wrote: Would we still have this ridiculous discussion that Necromunda isn't Necromunda unless it's happening on Necromunda if GW hadn't unfortunately named the game after the location it was set in?
Just imagine... if it had been called Gang War 40k. Would you still have a leg to stand on, if the name is all you're basing this on?
Or, if GW released a game that was set on Necromunda but used X-wing mechanics... would that be Necromunda then, by your logic?
I already mentioned that for me the aesthetics and lore surrounding it are what drew me in. If they're going to release something that isn't Necromunda.. ie.. not set in Necromunda, not featuring the original gangs, not based on the original concept past the vaguest notion of "gangs fighting" then they would release it as something else.. OH ..what's that? They already did that!
Though truth be told, this is closer to my satire about Gorkamorka ..
Let me ask a counter question.. Why are any of the anti-Necromunda people so opposed to allowing the original gangs to be re-released? Surely it must have dawned on at least some of you that we can have the original gangs as well as new ones..
lord_blackfang wrote: if GW hadn't unfortunately named the game after the location it was set in?
Unfortunately? This is like saying, what if 40k had not been "unfortunately" set in a grim future of constant warfare. Necromunda and Mordheim - as the names the designers chose suggest - are designed around a specific setting.
Knockagh wrote: After reading the carrion throne I'm salivating at a new necromunda game. I would be slightly disappointed if it was identical to the old gangs and settings. Now if it was set in the warrens of terra I would cry with joy for a week
Again though, that's not Necromunda. Necromunda isn't just a set of skirmish rules, it's a setting, an actual literal location.
Now, personally, I wouldn't mind them introducing some of the Confrontation elements into things, but if they're going to sell a box with "Necromunda" on the front and try to sell it to folk as the return of a beloved classic, it should actually be the return of a beloved classic not a vaguely-related-by-game-mechanics ripoff set on an entirely different planet or with entirely new factions right off the bat.
If GW or FW want to offer me the chance to buy a modern Brats gang I will be all over that, but only if they do justice to the classic setting and gangs first.
Well said.
One of the things I loved about Necromunda was the setting and the fluff and how that came through in the gameplay. The sense of a boistrous wild-west town where the gangs might be boozing and partying together one minute and trying to blast hole in each other the next minute. Then there's the sense of exploration and wonder and excitement when your gang uncovers some long forgotten tunnels or some ancient technology that might just give you an edge...
I was excited about SWA until I realized that it might look and play like Necromunda - but it wouldn't be Necromunda.
I've nothing against updated models though if done correctly!
I mean, does anyone? I suppose it turns on what "update" means. If it means faithfully translating the existing designs into more detailed and dynamic models, I doubt anyone objects. I'm thinking here of, for example, the plastic St. Celestine and Geminae Superia.
lord_blackfang wrote: Would we still have this ridiculous discussion that Necromunda isn't Necromunda unless it's happening on Necromunda if GW hadn't unfortunately named the game after the location it was set in?
Just imagine... if it had been called Gang War 40k. Would you still have a leg to stand on, if the name is all you're basing this on?
Or, if GW released a game that was set on Necromunda but used X-wing mechanics... would that be Necromunda then, by your logic?
I think we would have this ridiculous discussion if the previous title wasn't as specific. There were plenty of people when Warhammer Quest: Silver Tower was released that disputed both on grounds of background (set in Age of Sigmar, not Warhammer Fantasy) and game mechanics (hugely different campaign mechanics and monster diversity stood out) that the new Warhammer Quest was in fact Warhammer Quest.
Which, if we applied your (and GW's) conditions, isn't the case. It's still a dungeon crawl game set in the current Warhammer setting.
That doesn't help anyone who wants the old world back, though. Or those who want a more substantial campaign than Silver Tower offers. Or models that don't look out of place in the old setting. Or support for models that were in the old but are no longer in the new setting. And people who want that have a stake in a new version of the game. Complete newcomers (like me, who likes Silver Tower but never played the old Warhammer Quest) to Warhammer Quest get attracted to the game anyway. It's a modern game, so the models will look the part and the rules should be up to date. The background is completely new to us, regardless of where it is set. So that makes no difference either. The only difference to Necromunda is that there is a functional setting change on the fantasy side which doesn't exist in 40k, so Silver Tower at least has an old setting versus new setting divide to consider.
The only people who have a good reason to complain if a new version of Necromunda is, in fact, a new version of Necromunda, are those who have complete collections themselves (and possibly among their group) and simply don't need any more of the same. For these people, interest is invariably centered around new stuff.
As for the point about game mechanics, while game mechanics can and do change, themes found in those rules should still be accounted for in a new rule set no matter how different it is mechanically to the old system. For example, among GW games Necromunda had a pretty unique vertical component. X-Wing wouldn't account for that. Space is as flat as the Jedi in X-Wing.
Not-not-kenny wrote: The Witch elves and Sisters of Averlorn would say hi, but I assume you mean "the 1st human female models done in plastic by GW... for 40K". And yes, elves aren't human, but from a conversion standpoint they're bloody close enough!
No, they don't count. No matter how beautiful your conversion, you will always know there's a filthy elf underneath.
Lockark wrote: I don't really get what's wrong with updating the look for the existing gangs. Alot of the updates to classic designs have looked great.
It's been mentioned before, if there is no thematic change and the models still exhibit the same style as the old ones, there may still be a noticeable difference in sculpting technique and scaling that can make new models look off next to old ones. While it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how that might be a problem for others. I certainly try to get a unified look in my collections whenever possible.
Edit: Manchu puts up a good example. Celestine (or Veridyan in my case), so new Sisters, are well executed updates and put the style of the old one into plastic very well. But put Veridyan next to a metal Sister and the size difference is so irritating I'm going to have to put one of them away again because it ruins the overall appearance of the assembled Sisters.
Manchu wrote: I suppose it turns on what "update" means. If it means faithfully translating the existing designs into more detailed and dynamic models, I doubt anyone objects. I'm thinking here of, for example, the plastic St. Celestine and Geminae Superia.
I dunno. I think it wouldn't be real Necromunda if you could buy plastic Eschers.
To some people it will only be Necromunda if they do a "Remaster", basically, same background and same miniatures but up to date. They can make it still Necromunda by doing a "Remake". But it will be a different incarnation of Necromunda. So, same theme, same city, but different gangs, new background, changing some things, etc...
As I don't really like Necromunda, not in aesthetic not in background, I'm totally neutral onto this. But they don't need to make a exact carbon copy of Necromunda to be it still a "Necromunda".
Galas wrote: To some people it will only be Necromunda if they do a "Remaster", basically, same background and same miniatures but up to date. They can make it still Necromunda by doing a "Remake". But it will be a different incarnation of Necromunda. So, same theme, same city, but different gangs, new background, changing some things, etc...
As I don't really like Necromunda, not in aesthetic not in background, I'm totally neutral onto this. But they don't need to make a exact carbon copy of Necromunda to be it still a "Necromunda".
Then why bother re-releasing Necromunda at all? Why not just release "Hive Gangers" for S:WA? Thats' basically what all these anti-Necromunda folks are chanting for..
Galas wrote: To some people it will only be Necromunda if they do a "Remaster", basically, same background and same miniatures but up to date. They can make it still Necromunda by doing a "Remake". But it will be a different incarnation of Necromunda. So, same theme, same city, but different gangs, new background, changing some things, etc...
As I don't really like Necromunda, not in aesthetic not in background, I'm totally neutral onto this. But they don't need to make a exact carbon copy of Necromunda to be it still a "Necromunda".
Then why bother re-releasing Necromunda at all? Why not just release "Hive Gangers" for S:WA? Thats' basically what all these anti-Necromunda folks are chanting for..
I don't know. Ask the guys that made that Robocop remake in 2014
Yodhrin wrote: Grocery store selling bread - just another cashgrab!
Actually, if you are familiar with the changes to commercial bread baking in 1928 and 1961, that is truer than you might think. (Bread slicing and wrapping machinery and the Chorleywood process, respectively - ironically, the Chorleywood process was intended to help keep smaller scale bakeries competitive - but then somebody quickly realized that there was no reason that it could not be applied to large scale dough fermentation as well.)
Because I am a gamer, and thus know lots of random crap.
MLaw wrote: Then why bother re-releasing Necromunda at all? Why not just release "Hive Gangers" for S:WA? Thats' basically what all these anti-Necromunda folks are chanting for..
And I wonder why you don't just hit eBay if you literally want nothing else but a repackage of the original game.
MLaw wrote: Then why bother re-releasing Necromunda at all? Why not just release "Hive Gangers" for S:WA? Thats' basically what all these anti-Necromunda folks are chanting for..
And I wonder why you don't just hit eBay if you literally want nothing else but a repackage of the original game.
While E-bay is really neat, I don't think it is currently capable of creating new sculpts, new terrain, creating the new release surge of community players, or new and updated material. We'll not mention the limited availability of rules, miniatures, and terrain from the original sets.
You might also note, I never called for a repackage. I am hoping that they clean up the old system, condense down a lot of the material that you had to hunt across magazines for, and expand upon some of the ranges that need it. I already have the original rules and a Delaque gang. While I would be okay with having the old sculpts available, I would fully expect them to take the same steps they did with Bloodbowl.
I have to ask.. do you go into Chinese restaurants and demand that they start making cheeseburgers because that is really how you're coming across. This thread is specifically about Necromunda.. IF GW wanted to go a different route and not willfully resurrect a more generic sci-fi gangfight style game, they would take your earlier advice and release "Warhammer 40,000 Gang War" etc. BUT.. that's not what they're doing.. if they're calling it Necromunda specifically, that means they don't agree with you (at least not in full). What exactly are you hoping for? The old rules but new models? New rules, new models, new setting? All I see you saying is what you don't want .. which is usually what someone else just said they do want.. so I am kinda thinking you don't care about Necromunda in any capacity so much as you are really just looking to argue. You did point out that you think the old mechanics are dated too (I am pretty sure that was you) so again.. why stick with GW on this at all? There are SEVERAL games out there that allow you to have rival gangs fight in a science fiction setting. So.. whatever your point is, I'm not getting it.. and since this is all rumor.. I think I've stopped caring.
Then why bother re-releasing Necromunda at all? Why not just release "Hive Gangers" for S:WA?
If Specialist Games were smart... They could start a series of games called Hive War: XXXXXX. Obviously the first game out would be Hive War: Necromunda, followed by Hive War: Terra with stuff from Carrion Throne, followed by other titles.
Each box would have the same basic rule set, but add different gangs with different skills tables, new scenarios perhaps related to the specific world, perhaps an expanded campaign and additional material.
I was assuming that is what GW was going to do with Shadow War, but apparently it was a one and done with a very weak campaign system. Could have been a great series of games, but GW dropped the ball again when it could have been printing money.
Lockark wrote: I don't really get what's wrong with updating the look for the existing gangs. Alot of the updates to classic designs have looked great.
It's been mentioned before, if there is no thematic change and the models still exhibit the same style as the old ones, there may still be a noticeable difference in sculpting technique and scaling that can make new models look off next to old ones. While it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how that might be a problem for others. I certainly try to get a unified look in my collections whenever possible.
Edit: Manchu puts up a good example. Celestine (or Veridyan in my case), so new Sisters, are well executed updates and put the style of the old one into plastic very well. But put Veridyan next to a metal Sister and the size difference is so irritating I'm going to have to put one of them away again because it ruins the overall appearance of the assembled Sisters.
But necromunda has so few models why would you want to use your old along side your new? One box would replace your whole gang in theory. That's why I don't get why this is a issue.
In the sister example that's only a issue because they didn't replace the whole range. One plastic box of ten would replace your whole old gang anyway.
Lockark wrote: I don't really get what's wrong with updating the look for the existing gangs. Alot of the updates to classic designs have looked great.
It's been mentioned before, if there is no thematic change and the models still exhibit the same style as the old ones, there may still be a noticeable difference in sculpting technique and scaling that can make new models look off next to old ones. While it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how that might be a problem for others. I certainly try to get a unified look in my collections whenever possible.
Edit: Manchu puts up a good example. Celestine (or Veridyan in my case), so new Sisters, are well executed updates and put the style of the old one into plastic very well. But put Veridyan next to a metal Sister and the size difference is so irritating I'm going to have to put one of them away again because it ruins the overall appearance of the assembled Sisters.
But necromunda has so few models why would you want to use your old along side your new? One box would replace your whole gang in theory. That's why I don't get why this is a issue.
In the sister example that's only a issue because they didn't replace the whole range. One plastic box of ten would replace your whole old gang anyway.
Only reason I would have to use my old Delaque gang is $$. I wouldn't want to re-buy that particular gang. Having the classics available for even a limited release would mean I could outfit them to match the new loadouts as well. Then any other gangs I would run the new plastics. TBH though, for Cawdor or Redemptionists I would probably consider Flagellant + Frostgrave heads and other bits I have in huge supply.. Van Saar, Escher, Orlock, Enforcers, Goliath, Ratskin, and characters I would probably go with whatever's new.. though I do still have a gunslinger with a pair of autopistols or somesuch.
RE: Warzones etc.. The old Necromunda did this by way of Outlanders and introducing other factions in the same way it had done Mordheim Warbands.. gathering all of those little fringe factions in a more manageable way is what I was calling for in my earlier post. If they have to do it in little boxed sets, that's cool, I just would really prefer to not have to buy a bunch of magazines, expansion boxes, one off books, etc as I am running out of bookshelf space.
Here's why I think they won't do the proposed warzone idea. While they're turning a new leaf it would seem, they do still tend to prefer low-hanging fruit that requires little IP development or conceptual design. It's one thing to simply revamp existing designs to match current trends, it's an entirely different matter to materialize wholly new models, factions, lore, fluff, maps, and a fanbase all from nothing but air and aspirations. Even within these boardgames and one-offs, they've still adhered to existing ideas. Hell, the biggest things to happen to 40k over the last few months IMO have all involved old ideas. Genestealer Cult, Costodes, Restartes, Knight Titans.. In the meantime, Orks are still using Gorkamorka era deffkopta, buggies, and wartrakks (I think that artillery is from around that period as well). Bloodbowl was re-released.. and from what I can tell (I don't play it) it was basically a "remastered" (to steal terminology from a few posts up) version of the old kit.
So.. no.. I don't think they'll start over fresh. From a business standpoint, intellectual property is the most precious thing they, as a company, own. Expanding on it, sure.. they do that. Ignoring it? Nah.. probably not.
..oh I just realized we're going to see this exact same conversation again for Mordheim, Epic, BFG, and whatever else they bring out (please be Gorkamorka!!!)..
Oh no, the Mordheim one will be much, much worse than this, I'll be trying to avoid it entirely as I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.
BFG and Epic shouldn't be as contentious since they're a lot less tied down to any specific place or time; as long as it's clear that they'll eventually cover everything the worst we'll get in that discussion is some (reasonably justified)grumbling from Xenos players if as seems likely the SGS guys choose to kick things off in the Heresy.
lord_blackfang wrote: And I wonder why you don't just hit eBay if you literally want nothing else but a repackage of the original game.
Manchu already said that bad faith arguments will get you nowhere, and yet there you go...
I had to google that, but it definitely looks like neither of you two is using the term correctly. I honestly don't udnerstand what you guys want, one moment you're hating on anything new the other you're wishing for updates.
Also not sure why MLaw keeps attributing some sort of Necromunda hate to me like I don't have a link to a 250-page supplement that I wrote in my sig.
All I ever said is I'd prefer the expanded universe with all factions rather than just 6 bands of street punks that don't even have different stats other than skill access.
MLaw wrote: ..oh I just realized we're going to see this exact same conversation again for Mordheim, Epic, BFG, and whatever else they bring out (please be Gorkamorka!!!)..
Then let's get all the arguing from the other side out of the way:
"I can't wait for the new Mordhiem, but I hope it's not set in Mordhiem and is set in Age of Sigmar."
"I can't wait for new Epic to come out! Only I hope it's not set in 40K and has no Titans in it."
"I can't wait for the new BFG. I just wish it didn't have any space ships in it."
"The new Gorkamorka will be ace, but if GW are smart they'll ensure that it doesn't have any Orks in it!"
Makes about as much sense as wanting a new Necromunda but wanting GW to remove everything that made Necromunda Necromunda.
If they do release Necromunda at Xmas then it had better be Necromunda with the six original gangs (multipart plastic kit for each gang) not a Shadow War: Armageddon expansion.
Lockark wrote: I don't really get what's wrong with updating the look for the existing gangs. Alot of the updates to classic designs have looked great.
It's been mentioned before, if there is no thematic change and the models still exhibit the same style as the old ones, there may still be a noticeable difference in sculpting technique and scaling that can make new models look off next to old ones. While it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how that might be a problem for others. I certainly try to get a unified look in my collections whenever possible.
Edit: Manchu puts up a good example. Celestine (or Veridyan in my case), so new Sisters, are well executed updates and put the style of the old one into plastic very well. But put Veridyan next to a metal Sister and the size difference is so irritating I'm going to have to put one of them away again because it ruins the overall appearance of the assembled Sisters.
But necromunda has so few models why would you want to use your old along side your new? One box would replace your whole gang in theory. That's why I don't get why this is a issue.
In the sister example that's only a issue because they didn't replace the whole range. One plastic box of ten would replace your whole old gang anyway.
Me? Specifically in this situation? I wouldn't use my old gang models at all because I hate metal models and very rarely put up with them these days. Which, by the way, is another reason I am all in favor of a real Necromunda redo with new models for the classic gangs.
But what if you lovingly converted some gangers back in the day and want to re-recruit them? You are emotionally attached to them, but putting them next to the new ones just doesn't work for you. And while you may have enough gangers for your last campaign, what if your new campaign with the new Necromunda is more successful for your gang and you need more models? New models are available, but you have to go scour Ebay for old ones because of visual incompatibility? These are valid concerns.
And it's true the real (and everlasting issue) with Sisters is that they don't get updated. The problem is not limited to Sisters, necessarily. If you look at Bloodbowl, only five teams have gotten plastic models so far. Additional resin models are rolled out slowly, and the other teams are made to order old models two decades old that you wouldn't mix in a single team, if GW offered additional models for plastic teams (say a chainsaw goblin or steamroller). So following the Bloodbowl example, if a new Necromunda is released, you have the full rules at your disposal before Christmas and can start playing right away. But only with the two gangs in the boxed set. And you'd better hope you don't roll for any exotic weapons, because there are no models for those yet. If you're hoping for other gangs, you'll get the basic model from February till May. If you're waiting for underhive scum, it could take over a year.
Now sure, it's not like this is the end of the world, and naturally GW cannot release all models at the same time, but specifically for that reason you will get a noticeable period of time in which too few options are covered and players have to go looking for alternatives. One of which could be old models.
MLaw wrote: ..oh I just realized we're going to see this exact same conversation again for Mordheim, Epic, BFG, and whatever else they bring out (please be Gorkamorka!!!)..
Then let's get all the arguing from the other side out of the way:
"I can't wait for the new Mordhiem, but I hope it's not set in Mordhiem and is set in Age of Sigmar."
"I can't wait for new Epic to come out! Only I hope it's not set in 40K and has no Titans in it."
"I can't wait for the new BFG. I just wish it didn't have any space ships in it."
"The new Gorkamorka will be ace, but if GW are smart they'll ensure that it doesn't have any Orks in it!"
Makes about as much sense as wanting a new Necromunda but wanting GW to remove everything that made Necromunda Necromunda.
A campaign based AoS game would do a lot to fill out the background. I'd go for it, and can easily imagine that the cursed city was so cursed that even the end of the world wasn't enough to destroy it entirely. A single Stormcast leading a band of freeguild to claim the tainted shards of warpstone and keep them out of the hands of the baddies doesn't sound too out of place, or Knight-Questors as hireable mercs whose goals just happen to align with certain gangs at the moment.
As for the other games...
Bring back Warmaster? Yes, please!
Man-o-war? Same!
A game focusing on renegade grots vs diggas? Well, that would be a bit of a radical change, but could be interesting.
Yodhrin wrote: Oh no, the Mordheim one will be much, much worse than this, I'll be trying to avoid it entirely as I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.
BFG and Epic shouldn't be as contentious since they're a lot less tied down to any specific place or time; as long as it's clear that they'll eventually cover everything the worst we'll get in that discussion is some (reasonably justified)grumbling from Xenos players if as seems likely the SGS guys choose to kick things off in the Heresy.
Whenever one of the members of our club want to use Sigmarines in our narrative campaings/games set in the old world we always use the same excuse: They are Iron golems created by Balthasar Gelt.
Or just a big-ass Knight. One friend of mine has a small band of a zombicied Knight-Questor with squeletons squires for example.
Yodhrin wrote: Oh no, the Mordheim one will be much, much worse than this, I'll be trying to avoid it entirely as I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.
Yikes.
"No! Noooo! *pushes glasses back onto face* You CANNOT use THOSE fantasy soldiers in THIS fantasy game! I'm TIRED of EXPLAINING this!!!"
What happens when someone plays Space Marines vs Space Marines in 40k? "I'm sick of explaining to you two that Ultramarines cannot be fighting Crimson Fists!"
I'm going to post pictures of my Stormcast Eternals in my group's Mordheim terrain.
Yodhrin wrote: Oh no, the Mordheim one will be much, much worse than this, I'll be trying to avoid it entirely as I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.
Yikes.
"No! Noooo! *pushes glasses back onto face* You CANNOT use THOSE fantasy soldiers in THIS fantasy game! I'm TIRED of EXPLAINING this!!!"
What happens when someone plays Space Marines vs Space Marines in 40k? "I'm sick of explaining to you two that Ultramarines cannot be fighting Crimson Fists!"
I'm going to post pictures of my Stormcast Eternals in my group's Mordheim terrain.
Specialist games needs to set Mordheim in the AoS universe to save Yod from this terrible fate! Start the petition!
You guys must have great fun playing Army Men vs GI Joes for your games of X-Wing. Or is wanting to keep the factions in play during a campaign limited to the ones that are actually part of the appropriate setting only bad-evil-wrong when it's a WHF fan prefering to play their WHF-set games with WHF factions and not Land Marines?
Yodhrin wrote: You guys must have great fun playing Army Men vs GI Joes for your games of X-Wing. Or is wanting to keep the factions in play during a campaign limited to the ones that are actually part of the appropriate setting only bad-evil-wrong when it's a WHF fan prefering to play their WHF-set games with WHF factions and not Land Marines?
My advice wasn't sarcastic. Stormcast Eternals with a little of tweaking can be put into a WHF battle. Obviusly, not as Stormcast Eternals. But I can totally understand people don't wanting them if they want a more "Pure" narrative.
Yodhrin wrote: You guys must have great fun playing Army Men vs GI Joes for your games of X-Wing. Or is wanting to keep the factions in play during a campaign limited to the ones that are actually part of the appropriate setting only bad-evil-wrong when it's a WHF fan prefering to play their WHF-set games with WHF factions and not Land Marines?
I was actually enjoying it more in a #firstworldproblems kind of way, not to belittle your very serious complaint of course!
Yodhrin wrote: You guys must have great fun playing Army Men vs GI Joes for your games of X-Wing. Or is wanting to keep the factions in play during a campaign limited to the ones that are actually part of the appropriate setting only bad-evil-wrong when it's a WHF fan prefering to play their WHF-set games with WHF factions and not Land Marines?
You got caught making a pedantically arrogant and dismissive statement.
Life goes on, take your licks and roll with it.
lord_blackfang wrote: I had to google that, but it definitely looks like neither of you two is using the term correctly.
Google isn't a substitute for an education. What we're saying is, you don't even believe the arguments you're asserting and it's no surprise that we sure as hell don't, either. You'd do much better to state your position straightforwardly rather than hoping sarcasm will make the case for you, a la:
lord_blackfang wrote: All I ever said is I'd prefer the expanded universe with all factions rather than just 6 bands of street punks that don't even have different stats other than skill access.
There's an implication there that the stats are what matters, which is why I think the counterpoint that setting is more important sprang up.
As for what we want - I can only speak for myself but I'd like to see Necromunda faithfully recreated with updated materials and means along the lines of Space Hulk 2009.
Yodhrin wrote: I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.
While the specific image you're evoking here - going on a tirade fueled by hatred of AoS - is silly, I agree with you underlying point that imaginary worlds actual do require a level of consistency to generate immersion. Stormcast simply do not work in the Mordheim setting, which relies on feelings of dread and vulnerability. Hulking warriors encased in resplendent golden armor streaming down from the heavens on lightning bolts in no way "fits" with the dank, dirty darkness of Mordheim.
lord_blackfang wrote: I had to google that, but it definitely looks like neither of you two is using the term correctly.
Google isn't a substitute for an education. What we're saying is, you don't even believe the arguments you're asserting and it's no surprise that we sure as hell don't, either. You'd do much better to state your position straightforwardly rather than hoping sarcasm will make the case for you, a la:
lord_blackfang wrote: All I ever said is I'd prefer the expanded universe with all factions rather than just 6 bands of street punks that don't even have different stats other than skill access.
There's an implication there that the stats are what matters, which is why I think the counterpoint that setting is more important sprang up.
As for what we want - I can only speak for myself but I'd like to see Necromunda faithfully recreated with updated materials and means along the lines of Space Hulk 2009.
Yodhrin wrote: I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.
While the specific image you're evoking here - going on a tirade fueled by hatred of AoS - is silly, I agree with you underlying point that imaginary worlds actual do require a level of consistency to generate immersion. Stormcast simply do not work in the Mordheim setting, which relies on feelings of dread and vulnerability. Hulking warriors encased in resplendent golden armor streaming down from the heavens on lightning bolts in no way "fits" with the dank, dirty darkness of Mordheim.
I quoted all of this because I know if I tried to snip out the top part to trim it down I would just mangle it. My thing isn't so much that this group or that group can't be used... For me it's more about 2 things.
1. Mordheim is well within a specific area of "human" controlled lands. No real full-scale battles (army vs army) are going to be fought here. The types of adventurers who find themselves here just really doesn't thematically lend itself to full on front line shock trooper types. I could see one of these Sigmarines being a special character or something.. but just like Ogre Kingdoms, it doesn't make much sense for a whole warband of them to be slogging through Mordheim.. especially on a treasure hunt.
2. My family and friends actively play Mordheim using the originally printed rules and annuals and all of that. We stick to what is printed which means a)armies that exist in WHFB aren't always represented in Mordheim.. or.. are not represented exactly as they are in WHFB/AOS (Cult of the Possessed isn't "really" Chaos just like Undead are not a very accurate portrayal of a Vampire Counts army). and b) The groups that are present in Mordheim (as a standalone game) are tailored to the theme and setting.. which even means groups that have no actual army.. like Sisters of Sigmar, Pirates, and honestly.. Witchhunters.
I really see Necromunda the same way. It makes no sense to me to have Orks there as an example (though there was an official set of rules). Adding other stuff in should be done IMO thematically and within respect to the confines of the lore/setting. It wouldn't make sense to me at all to have Eldar or Necrons in a Necromunda setting. Tau... I dunno.. not really but some hand-waving explanation that they do trade might possibly work.. Adding in some specialized Chaos cult or Inquisitorial retinue? I could totally see that. Some Space Marines? No.. not really.. not even neophytes. There was a lot of stuff added in the Gang War magazine and other places that I don't think a lot of people are aware of.. and back then without the internet based resources we have today, it was hard to know exactly what WAS out there in most cases.
Anyway, someone mentioned Man-O-War a few posts up.. They kinda did that as Dreadfleet.. sorta.. I got the impression it didn't do so well.. so I'm not sure they would really be eager to go back down that road (I could be wrong though!). Someone also mentioned giving Necromunda the same treatment as Space Hulk (2009) which I think is a fantastic comparison to what I am looking for in this. Between that release and Bloodbowl, I really feel like maybe they get it... and hopefully that's where this lands.
Manchu wrote: Google isn't a substitute for an education.
This is basically hate speech against a non-native speaker, just so you know.
Like MLaw conveniently alluded to just now, most of official Necromunda material "isn't real Necromunda" by you guys' standards, so no, I am not making bad faith arguments. It's just that you guys can't present consistent standards for what is and isn't Necromunda.
Manchu wrote: Google isn't a substitute for an education.
This is basically hate speech against a non-native speaker, just so you know.
Like MLaw conveniently alluded to just now, most of official Necromunda material "isn't real Necromunda" by you guys' standards, so no, I am not making bad faith arguments. It's just that you guys can't present consistent standards for what is and isn't Necromunda.
Yeah.. this is another bad faith argument. You have no idea if that's how I view it or what any sort of consensus of what is and isn't acceptable is.. while simultaneously there is no need for any sort of consensus. The official game is what it is and will be what it will be.. and house rules will do the same. None of that has any bearing on what GW does. Moreover, I fully explained my reasoning.. which you aren't doing. You're just lighting fires, starting gak and leaving when someone points out that you're not here to advocate anything other than dissent. You have still not told us what you DO want and you are still just stirring the pot. Please carry that gak elsewhere.
EDIT: Just used the ignore feature for the first time and I have to say.. it's really nice. Other forum's ignore feature leaves the person's avatar and just hides the body of their comment.. which has that pandora's box effect. This is so elegant and discreet.. perfect!
Yeah.. this is another bad faith argument. You have no idea if that's how I view it or what any sort of consensus of what is and isn't acceptable is.. while simultaneously there is no need for any sort of consensus.
Then why are you ripping into everyone who doesn't share your definition?
The official game is what it is and will be what it will be.. and house rules will do the same. None of that has any bearing on what GW does. Moreover, I fully explained my reasoning.. which you aren't doing.
Yes I did.
You're just lighting fires, starting gak and leaving when someone points out that you're not here to advocate anything other than dissent.
Did I leave? I posted a few minutes ago. But I do have a day job. I also sleep. Am I disqualified somehow if I take an 8 hour break? In all fairness, tho, you were the first to say that anyone who disagrees with you should leave the thread and go play Urban Mammoth or something like that.
You have still not told us what you DO want and you are still just stirring the pot.
Yes I did. Maybe filter for my posts or something if your scroll wheel is broken.
Manchu wrote: Google isn't a substitute for an education.
This is basically hate speech against a non-native speaker, just so you know.
Like MLaw conveniently alluded to just now, most of official Necromunda material "isn't real Necromunda" by you guys' standards, so no, I am not making bad faith arguments. It's just that you guys can't present consistent standards for what is and isn't Necromunda.
Seems like you must also be mistakenly relying on random Google hits for the definition of "hate speech." As the person aggressively asserting strawman positions, you are hardly the victim here. And kindly refrain from citing Google to smugly suggest native speakers don't know the meaning of the phrases they use.
Getting back to the substance of the discussion, isn't your objection based on the lack of mechanical diversity among the core gangs? And again, isn't the counterpoint that it's the integrity of the setting itself that is most important? It seems to me that it's not that hard to define the setting because it amounts to the original release.
You said I was uneducated because I didn't know a particular English phrase. That's a personal attack and is based on nationalism, therefore hate speech. Maybe ask a mod who isn't strongly invested in the topic for their opinion?
Getting back to the substance of the discussion, isn't your objection based on the lack of mechanical diversity among the core gangs? And again, isn't the counterpoint that it's the integrity of the setting itself that is most important? It seems to me that it's not that hard to define the setting because it amounts to the original release.
What integrity? There is no integrity. That's what I am saying. Most of the official supplements don't conform to what you guys say is "real Necromunda". We have Ash Wastes that moved the setting outside the hive, we have rules for Tyranids, Chaos, Orks... Eldar hired guns that got actual models specific to Necromunda... So I don't know why you're so hung up on something that was never really a thing. People always want to add stuff. The most popular Necromunda rebuild out there is Inquisimunda, guess what it does? It adds all 40k factions in a setting where it makes sense for them to meet, obviously this isn't the Underhive. My own Gangs of Nu Ork does the same. And that's what you should be looking at if you want to see what I want.
To me, Necromunda isn't a place. It's a gaming experience. A particular system for high-detail, low-lethality skirmishes in the grimdark 40k setting with an involved campaign system for model advancement. You can play Ewoks vs Mars Attacks in there for all I care and it'll still be Necromunda as long as the feel is the same.
I already know the 40k setting. I don't need to be spoonfed. I don't need GW to hold my hand like some who want a re-release just because they feel like they're not allowed to play the game because it's out of print. I want new material. I have every published bit of Necromunda (and Gorkamorka) and most of the models for all gangs. I'm good on old stuff. I don't need another 30 Eschers. Give me the variety of SWA (and preferably much more) with the complexity of the original campaign system, give me new factions, new terrain, new planets. Make it so all the old material is a subset of the new setting so... nostalgia-mongers... can just continue to play as they always did without losing anything... apart from being triggered by others having badwrongfun and so on.
Necromunda is my all time favourite GW game. Massive collection of original metal minis (what's wrong with metal? I love metal minis) Would be much more likely to play Necromunda on any given opportunity than 40k or any other GW game for that matter. Its an all time classic.
Agreed, some scenarios were crummy and we never played the roll to see what scenario you're playing rules, we just play what scenario we want and most often make up our own. So yes a big reboot on scenarios would be excellent.
And I wouldn't mind seeing an update on house weapons lists and skill tables. I'm a big fan of house weapons lists as it really made an impact on fighting style for each gang that just wasn't there back when skill availability was the only difference between houses. I could even see a few house specific recruitment or post battle variations being introduced too just to flesh things out even more.
And I also agree that many of the items on sale were crummy and overpriced. But you know that was half the fun sometimes. As champaign manager I'd dole out some of the more obscure items in bonus loot counters for free and laugh when they came into play in often game changing circumstances. They could be game changers but it was often more sensible to hire and arm a Juve than waste your creds on the chance. But I'm sure in the 20 odd years its been since the original game was written there's been plenty of new fangled wotsits that might show up at the trading post.
Then there's XP. Correct me if I'm wrong but you get 5xp for every wounding hit you inflict. And if you're in close combat rolling well you can often land multiple hits that wound and follow-up into another combat and do the same. Before you know it Jimmy Juve has tripled his XP in one game and is now tougher, a crack shot and an upcoming candidate for Gang leader! I used to cap the available XP for wounding hits in our champaign to three hits per game +15xp being a suitable bonus on top of your D6 for surviving.
Then I always wanted Juves to have something to do post battle so I drew up a Juve capers table for them to roll on. If you wanted to risk it for more XP.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to see all their house rules integrated into a Necromunda reboot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @lord_Blackfang- Ewoks vs Mars Attacks? Lets do it! Nub Yub!
Friend of mine had a good idea for what Juves can do after a game: Go back to recover lost equipment, only there's a chance they get killed/eaten when they do.
lord_blackfang wrote: Most of the official supplements don't conform to what you guys say is "real Necromunda". [...] So I don't know why you're so hung up on something that was never really a thing.
Eventual expansions may well broaden the scope of a product line - that doesn't mean that the core brand "was never really a thing." The reasons this discussion is happening at all are (1) BB is the only Boxed Game so far to have significant expansion beyond launch and (2) SWA is not Necromunda (which is fine, too; I love SWA). People ITT understand that a Necromunda release could well be "one and done" - and therefore, if there is only one shot, the hope is that it will be the core brand of Necromunda ... which (again, what is the name of this game?) is about certain factions battling over territory in a certain hive.
Then you are not the target demographic for Specialist Games.
Manchu wrote: Seems like you must also be mistakenly relying on random Google hits for the definition of "hate speech." As the person aggressively asserting strawman positions, you are hardly the victim here. And kindly refrain from citing Google to smugly suggest native speakers don't know the meaning of the phrases they use.
lord_blackfang wrote: You said I was uneducated because I didn't know a particular English phrase. That's a personal attack and is based on nationalism, therefore hate speech. Maybe ask a mod who isn't strongly invested in the topic for their opinion?
Do you know what a strawman argument is? It is where you assert that someone has taken a position, which they actually have not, for the sake of attacking them: for example, accusing me of "hate speech" based (somehow?) on "nationalism" because I objected to your facially ignorant claim that HBMC (an Australian) and I (an American) don't know how to use the phrase "bad faith" properly. To borrow a phrase from another poster ITT, "You got caught making a pedantically arrogant and dismissive statement. Life goes on, take your licks and roll with it." This isn't the only strawman you have made ITT, either - which is how we have even come to this point.
theCrowe wrote: (what's wrong with metal? I love metal minis)
Paint on metal models chips way too easily. That's my only beef. But it's a big one. I'm not going to spend all that time painting a model just to see it ruined through normal use.
theCrowe wrote: Then there's XP. Correct me if I'm wrong but you get 5xp for every wounding hit you inflict. And if you're in close combat rolling well you can often land multiple hits that wound and follow-up into another combat and do the same. Before you know it Jimmy Juve has tripled his XP in one game and is now tougher, a crack shot and an upcoming candidate for Gang leader! I used to cap the available XP for wounding hits in our champaign to three hits per game +15xp being a suitable bonus on top of your D6 for surviving.
I'd have to check, but it should be 5XP per wounding hit per phase, so capped in the base rules already.
Then there's XP. Correct me if I'm wrong but you get 5xp for every wounding hit you inflict. And if you're in close combat rolling well you can often land multiple hits that wound and follow-up into another combat and do the same. Before you know it Jimmy Juve has tripled his XP in one game and is now tougher, a crack shot and an upcoming candidate for Gang leader! I used to cap the available XP for wounding hits in our champaign to three hits per game +15xp being a suitable bonus on top of your D6 for surviving.
Mmh... you could half the XP for Juves and/or change the Advance Roll Table for them. Another option is to increase the costs for proper new gangers (after the initial recruitment) and make newly recruited Juves a bit more... unpredictable. They could turn out to be drug addicts, decide to miss the next battle because they don't have the desire, steal credits or stuff from your stash, have mental issues or are originally from a different House (and thus roll on different skill tables).
I mentioned this to my good lady wife - who is too young to have ever played Necromunda.
The Jail Birds by Raging Heroes have her creating an Escher gang for the old version of Necromunda - and she is planning to spend a good deal of money on it. (Raging Heroes is not an inexpensive choice!)
Which will make two Escher gangs for a campaign that I didn't even know I was going to be running.... (Another player already bought his Jail Birds during the Kickstarter - for that express purpose.)
There is most definitely a market for this game - even if GW doesn't get around to recreating it.
The Auld Grump - I was hoping for a Mordheim campaign, but Megan is being seduced by the punk ladies of the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy.... I have a horrible feeling that music by Ramone will be involved....
I mentioned this to my good lady wife - who is too young to have ever played Necromunda.
The Jail Birds by Raging Heroes have her creating an Escher gang for the old version of Necromunda - and she is planning to spend a good deal of money on it. (Raging Heroes is not an inexpensive choice!)
Which will make two Escher gangs for a campaign that I didn't even know I was going to be running.... (Another player already bought his Jail Birds during the Kickstarter - for that express purpose.)
There is most definitely a market for this game - even if GW doesn't get around to recreating it.
The Auld Grump - I was hoping for a Mordheim campaign, but Megan is being seduced by the punk ladies of the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy.... I have a horrible feeling that music by Ramone will be involved....
I was thinking of them for that reason.
Heresy miniatures struggles to keep their "not-Delaque" gang in stock from what I understand and Mad Robot's got options that could be used for Van Saar as well as Goliath. Between all of that, Deadzone terrain, platformer sets, all the MDF stuff that has come out, updating Necromunda is an option even if GW doesn't go that route... As you said though.. not inexpensive. I would much rather buy in on some specific GW breed with shiny new rules and all.
If your wife likes to play the lady warbands in this sort of game, I do feel for her as Mordheim's Sisters of Sigmar have proven problematic for me to source an alternative for. Luckily, the pirates, Witch Hunters, and many others aren't gender specific and far more flexible... Count yourself lucky though, my wife tried 40k once and now just finds something on Netflix when it's gaming time
lord_blackfang wrote: Most of the official supplements don't conform to what you guys say is "real Necromunda". [...] So I don't know why you're so hung up on something that was never really a thing.
Eventual expansions may well broaden the scope of a product line - that doesn't mean that the core brand "was never really a thing." The reasons this discussion is happening at all are (1) BB is the only Boxed Game so far to have significant expansion beyond launch and (2) SWA is not Necromunda (which is fine, too; I love SWA). People ITT understand that a Necromunda release could well be "one and done" - and therefore, if there is only one shot, the hope is that it will be the core brand of Necromunda ... which (again, what is the name of this game?) is about certain factions battling over territory in a certain hive.
Then you are not the target demographic for Specialist Games.
Manchu wrote: Seems like you must also be mistakenly relying on random Google hits for the definition of "hate speech." As the person aggressively asserting strawman positions, you are hardly the victim here. And kindly refrain from citing Google to smugly suggest native speakers don't know the meaning of the phrases they use.
lord_blackfang wrote: You said I was uneducated because I didn't know a particular English phrase. That's a personal attack and is based on nationalism, therefore hate speech. Maybe ask a mod who isn't strongly invested in the topic for their opinion?
Do you know what a strawman argument is? It is where you assert that someone has taken a position, which they actually have not, for the sake of attacking them: for example, accusing me of "hate speech" based (somehow?) on "nationalism" because I objected to your facially ignorant claim that HBMC (an Australian) and I (an American) don't know how to use the phrase "bad faith" properly. To borrow a phrase from another poster ITT, "You got caught making a pedantically arrogant and dismissive statement. Life goes on, take your licks and roll with it." This isn't the only strawman you have made ITT, either - which is how we have even come to this point.
Him repeatedly wrapping me up in straw man arguments is why I ended up putting him on ignore. That and accusing me of ripping into people.. honestly surprised it got this far along..
TheAuldGrump wrote: There is most definitely a market for this game - even if GW doesn't get around to recreating it.
Strongly agree. I think this has occurred to decision makers at GW in the wake of SWA. AoS Skirmish coming out this weekend may reveal the same about the Fantasy side of the business. My hope is, since GW has already shown interest by setting up Specialist Games in the first place, the sales coming in from SWA and (potentially) AoS Skirmish will bolster their willingness to not only release self-contained Necromunda and Mordheim boxed games but also support them with expansions.
MLaw wrote: I would much rather buy in on some specific GW breed with shiny new rules and all.
Aye verily. I think GW has woken up to how much money they are leaving on the table for third parties by not leveraging the broader scope of their IP vault. A lot of us have settled for third-party stuff over the years (including rules!) because GW seemed intent on not serving us. (I say this as an Adpeta Sororitas fan.) But I'm not one to hold a grudge. Make good stuff, and I will be all to happy to indulge my latent love of these IPs!
Lockark wrote: I don't really get what's wrong with updating the look for the existing gangs. Alot of the updates to classic designs have looked great.
It's been mentioned before, if there is no thematic change and the models still exhibit the same style as the old ones, there may still be a noticeable difference in sculpting technique and scaling that can make new models look off next to old ones. While it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how that might be a problem for others. I certainly try to get a unified look in my collections whenever possible.
Edit: Manchu puts up a good example. Celestine (or Veridyan in my case), so new Sisters, are well executed updates and put the style of the old one into plastic very well. But put Veridyan next to a metal Sister and the size difference is so irritating I'm going to have to put one of them away again because it ruins the overall appearance of the assembled Sisters.
But necromunda has so few models why would you want to use your old along side your new? One box would replace your whole gang in theory. That's why I don't get why this is a issue.
In the sister example that's only a issue because they didn't replace the whole range. One plastic box of ten would replace your whole old gang anyway.
Me? Specifically in this situation? I wouldn't use my old gang models at all because I hate metal models and very rarely put up with them these days. Which, by the way, is another reason I am all in favor of a real Necromunda redo with new models for the classic gangs.
But what if you lovingly converted some gangers back in the day and want to re-recruit them? You are emotionally attached to them, but putting them next to the new ones just doesn't work for you. And while you may have enough gangers for your last campaign, what if your new campaign with the new Necromunda is more successful for your gang and you need more models? New models are available, but you have to go scour Ebay for old ones because of visual incompatibility? These are valid concerns.
And it's true the real (and everlasting issue) with Sisters is that they don't get updated. The problem is not limited to Sisters, necessarily. If you look at Bloodbowl, only five teams have gotten plastic models so far. Additional resin models are rolled out slowly, and the other teams are made to order old models two decades old that you wouldn't mix in a single team, if GW offered additional models for plastic teams (say a chainsaw goblin or steamroller). So following the Bloodbowl example, if a new Necromunda is released, you have the full rules at your disposal before Christmas and can start playing right away. But only with the two gangs in the boxed set. And you'd better hope you don't roll for any exotic weapons, because there are no models for those yet. If you're hoping for other gangs, you'll get the basic model from February till May. If you're waiting for underhive scum, it could take over a year.
Now sure, it's not like this is the end of the world, and naturally GW cannot release all models at the same time, but specifically for that reason you will get a noticeable period of time in which too few options are covered and players have to go looking for alternatives. One of which could be old models.
I don't think the exotic weapons would be a huge issue since plastic makes this MUCH easier to deal with then what we use to deal with in metal....
Even in the blood bowl example people been converting from plastics over touching the made to order classic teams.
To me as long as each of the 6 classic gangs got a 10 model multipart box of plastics that gives you everything you would ever need. Maby one of those plastic upgrade sprues for exotic weapons like needle rifles, Web gun, etc.
I mentioned this to my good lady wife - who is too young to have ever played Necromunda.
The Jail Birds by Raging Heroes have her creating an Escher gang for the old version of Necromunda - and she is planning to spend a good deal of money on it. (Raging Heroes is not an inexpensive choice!)
Which will make two Escher gangs for a campaign that I didn't even know I was going to be running.... (Another player already bought his Jail Birds during the Kickstarter - for that express purpose.)
There is most definitely a market for this game - even if GW doesn't get around to recreating it.
The Auld Grump - I was hoping for a Mordheim campaign, but Megan is being seduced by the punk ladies of the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy.... I have a horrible feeling that music by Ramone will be involved....
I was thinking of them for that reason.
Heresy miniatures struggles to keep their "not-Delaque" gang in stock from what I understand and Mad Robot's got options that could be used for Van Saar as well as Goliath. Between all of that, Deadzone terrain, platformer sets, all the MDF stuff that has come out, updating Necromunda is an option even if GW doesn't go that route... As you said though.. not inexpensive. I would much rather buy in on some specific GW breed with shiny new rules and all.
If your wife likes to play the lady warbands in this sort of game, I do feel for her as Mordheim's Sisters of Sigmar have proven problematic for me to source an alternative for. Luckily, the pirates, Witch Hunters, and many others aren't gender specific and far more flexible... Count yourself lucky though, my wife tried 40k once and now just finds something on Netflix when it's gaming time
For Sisters of Sigmar, may I suggest looking at some of the Basileans by Mantic -
Not perfect, by any means, but modular enough to do some heavy changes.
My good lady's Mordheim warband is probably going to be dwarfs - though orcs are another possibility.
I honestly think that she wants to play Necromunda as an excuse to get those Jail Birds - she is a second generation punk. She even managed to talk me into being lead singer for a short lived punk band. (Those same people are in our sometimes-but-longer-lived steampunk band). She is also getting some post-Apocalyptic minis for the gang.
My own Van Saar are going to be Neo-Victorian in theme - using Victoria Lamb's miniatures.
Mind you, if the GorkaMorka campaign is any indication, I will be too involved in running the campaign to play much. (For the GorkaMorka campaign there was a weekly 'Story Battle' where the plot of the campaign was advanced, and the Necrons started becoming a problem. One of those battles involved my own SteamBoyz getting killed by the TinBoyz.)
I will admit... a while back I bought her some Wargame Exclusive vehicles, with the idea of doing an Ash Wastes game.... (My good lady also bought what I can only call a Tau pinup girl... nekkid, with a gun.... It was her first 'just for fun' miniature - with no intent to use it in a game.)
I mentioned this to my good lady wife - who is too young to have ever played Necromunda.
The Jail Birds by Raging Heroes have her creating an Escher gang for the old version of Necromunda - and she is planning to spend a good deal of money on it. (Raging Heroes is not an inexpensive choice!)
Which will make two Escher gangs for a campaign that I didn't even know I was going to be running.... (Another player already bought his Jail Birds during the Kickstarter - for that express purpose.)
There is most definitely a market for this game - even if GW doesn't get around to recreating it.
The Auld Grump - I was hoping for a Mordheim campaign, but Megan is being seduced by the punk ladies of the Toughest Girls in the Galaxy.... I have a horrible feeling that music by Ramone will be involved....
I was thinking of them for that reason. Heresy miniatures struggles to keep their "not-Delaque" gang in stock from what I understand and Mad Robot's got options that could be used for Van Saar as well as Goliath. Between all of that, Deadzone terrain, platformer sets, all the MDF stuff that has come out, updating Necromunda is an option even if GW doesn't go that route... As you said though.. not inexpensive. I would much rather buy in on some specific GW breed with shiny new rules and all.
If your wife likes to play the lady warbands in this sort of game, I do feel for her as Mordheim's Sisters of Sigmar have proven problematic for me to source an alternative for. Luckily, the pirates, Witch Hunters, and many others aren't gender specific and far more flexible... Count yourself lucky though, my wife tried 40k once and now just finds something on Netflix when it's gaming time
For Sisters of Sigmar, may I suggest looking at some of the Basileans by Mantic - Not perfect, by any means, but modular enough to do some heavy changes.
My good lady's Mordheim warband is probably going to be dwarfs - though orcs are another possibility.
I honestly think that she wants to play Necromunda as an excuse to get those Jail Birds - she is a second generation punk. She even managed to talk me into being lead singer for a short lived punk band. (Those same people are in our sometimes-but-longer-lived steampunk band). She is also getting some post-Apocalyptic minis for the gang.
My own Van Saar are going to be Neo-Victorian in theme - using Victoria Lamb's miniatures. EDIT: Also.. those sculpts are pretty terrible.. I would probably just cherry pick stuff from Reaper or sculpt over my Shieldwolf giant maidens (after some height adjustment surgery). The flail arms are of interest though.. despite being on what looks like gorilla arms.
Mind you, if the GorkaMorka campaign is any indication, I will be too involved in running the campaign to play much. (For the GorkaMorka campaign there was a weekly 'Story Battle' where the plot of the campaign was advanced, and the Necrons started becoming a problem. One of those battles involved my own SteamBoyz getting killed by the TinBoyz.)
I will admit... a while back I bought her some Wargame Exclusive vehicles, with the idea of doing an Ash Wastes game.... (My good lady also bought what I can only call a Tau pinup girl... nekkid, with a gun.... It was her first 'just for fun' miniature - with no intent to use it in a game.)
The Auld Grump
Yeah, WGE stuff seems suitable for SWA.. hopefully they will turn out some sweet gangers (pretty sure they don't have any.. I think).. Even then, the cars alone make some great ground level line of sight breaking terrain.. while adding extra ambience! Win-win
Lockark wrote: I don't really get what's wrong with updating the look for the existing gangs. Alot of the updates to classic designs have looked great.
It's been mentioned before, if there is no thematic change and the models still exhibit the same style as the old ones, there may still be a noticeable difference in sculpting technique and scaling that can make new models look off next to old ones. While it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how that might be a problem for others. I certainly try to get a unified look in my collections whenever possible.
Edit: Manchu puts up a good example. Celestine (or Veridyan in my case), so new Sisters, are well executed updates and put the style of the old one into plastic very well. But put Veridyan next to a metal Sister and the size difference is so irritating I'm going to have to put one of them away again because it ruins the overall appearance of the assembled Sisters.
But necromunda has so few models why would you want to use your old along side your new? One box would replace your whole gang in theory. That's why I don't get why this is a issue.
In the sister example that's only a issue because they didn't replace the whole range. One plastic box of ten would replace your whole old gang anyway.
Me? Specifically in this situation? I wouldn't use my old gang models at all because I hate metal models and very rarely put up with them these days. Which, by the way, is another reason I am all in favor of a real Necromunda redo with new models for the classic gangs.
But what if you lovingly converted some gangers back in the day and want to re-recruit them? You are emotionally attached to them, but putting them next to the new ones just doesn't work for you. And while you may have enough gangers for your last campaign, what if your new campaign with the new Necromunda is more successful for your gang and you need more models? New models are available, but you have to go scour Ebay for old ones because of visual incompatibility? These are valid concerns.
And it's true the real (and everlasting issue) with Sisters is that they don't get updated. The problem is not limited to Sisters, necessarily. If you look at Bloodbowl, only five teams have gotten plastic models so far. Additional resin models are rolled out slowly, and the other teams are made to order old models two decades old that you wouldn't mix in a single team, if GW offered additional models for plastic teams (say a chainsaw goblin or steamroller). So following the Bloodbowl example, if a new Necromunda is released, you have the full rules at your disposal before Christmas and can start playing right away. But only with the two gangs in the boxed set. And you'd better hope you don't roll for any exotic weapons, because there are no models for those yet. If you're hoping for other gangs, you'll get the basic model from February till May. If you're waiting for underhive scum, it could take over a year.
Now sure, it's not like this is the end of the world, and naturally GW cannot release all models at the same time, but specifically for that reason you will get a noticeable period of time in which too few options are covered and players have to go looking for alternatives. One of which could be old models.
I don't think the exotic weapons would be a huge issue since plastic makes this MUCH easier to deal with then what we use to deal with in metal....
Even in the blood bowl example people been converting from plastics over touching the made to order classic teams.
To me as long as each of the 6 classic gangs got a 10 model multipart box of plastics that gives you everything you would ever need. Maby one of those plastic upgrade sprues for exotic weapons like needle rifles, Web gun, etc.
That would be super handy for SWA/Killteam/RT/Inq28 too. Really excited about all the customization this could mean.
Manchu wrote:
TheAuldGrump wrote: There is most definitely a market for this game - even if GW doesn't get around to recreating it.
Strongly agree. I think this has occurred to decision makers at GW in the wake of SWA. AoS Skirmish coming out this weekend may reveal the same about the Fantasy side of the business. My hope is, since GW has already shown interest by setting up Specialist Games in the first place, the sales coming in from SWA and (potentially) AoS Skirmish will bolster their willingness to not only release self-contained Necromunda and Mordheim boxed games but also support them with expansions.
MLaw wrote: I would much rather buy in on some specific GW breed with shiny new rules and all.
Aye verily. I think GW has woken up to how much money they are leaving on the table for third parties by not leveraging the broader scope of their IP vault. A lot of us have settled for third-party stuff over the years (including rules!) because GW seemed intent on not serving us. (I say this as an Adpeta Sororitas fan.) But I'm not one to hold a grudge. Make good stuff, and I will be all to happy to indulge my latent love of these IPs!
Yeah, that's how I've settled on this as well. I really have been against GW and their previous stances on everything from e-commerce to competition and aftermarket upgrades/sidegrades for their kits.. all the way to how they occasionally do shakedowns on FLGS to make sure they're stocking the right things the right way. Literally had my friend/store owner pulled away from an RTT because the GW rep wanted him to walk him through the shelving/blister setup. I'm hoping those days are behind them and they are at least half as interested in pleasing the customers as they have been the shareholders.
Necro is probably as close as it gets as a perfect game. But I would like to see a few of the old gangs either dropped or serioulsy redesigned. Van Saar and Orlocks were terribly bland, and Cawdor became redundant when the much cooler redemptionist were released.
While it might be them releasing Necormunda as a boardgame couldn't the release date simply be the Necormunda: Underhive wars computer game being developed by rogue factor?
I want plastic Eschers, but at the same time I don't, since I already have ~30 of them in metal! I would be fine both with a remake featuring the same gangs and a new Hive World with new gangs, doesn't make that much of a difference to me as long as the core tenets are the same. I would like them to significantly update the rules, add tons of equipment etc. As for Mordheim, I'd love a "Harrenhal" game using similar rules.
I have a ridiculous amount of the Necromunda metals and my own lovingly converted plastic Goliaths, but I'd be very happy to see all 6 houses with a modern GW plastic release!
Vorian wrote: Its not a fiddle with a couple of things like BB kind of job
I completely agree. For as much as I might have a big issue with the inherent 'tiers' of teams in BB, it is about as close to perfect as GW has ever come (that and maybe Space Hulk). Necromunda, despite being my all-time fav GW game, is no where near perfect.
Some of the changes from SW:A are welcome (ammo rolls, the way you roll for skills*, etc.), while others did not go far enough or were a regression over Necromunda (advance rolls, the complete lack of any progression system and how the actions taken during a game play no part in the development of your unit, how limited the weapon lists are, how there's next to zero point to the 'Juve' recruit types in most units).
One thing SW:A highlighted more than anything to me is how a redone Necromunda would be in dire need of a decent set of new/additional missions. Dozens of the things have been written between Necro's original release and now, and including 15-20 of them in a remade rule book would be something I'd expect (as long as we don't lose some of the basics like Gang Fight, Scavengers - that's my fav mission, Rescue Mission). I remember a fan-made mission from Necromunda Magazine - The Gunk Flood. Played that a few times. Made for some very interesting and tense games.
*Not advances, that new system is anaemic, I'm just talking about skills
Sort the crap scenarios and that's the worst thing solved.
Personally, I absolutely hate the run away strength that gangs go through. When people are firing BS6 heavy stubbers ignoring one point of cover the game falls apart - so I'd prefer slower progression, more juves (which also progress slower, without a free advance over gangers) and more injuries results on the injury table, which are characterful without screwing guys over when they are injured.
Make it a game of survival rather than super humans running around.
Lockark wrote: I don't really get what's wrong with updating the look for the existing gangs. Alot of the updates to classic designs have looked great.
It's been mentioned before, if there is no thematic change and the models still exhibit the same style as the old ones, there may still be a noticeable difference in sculpting technique and scaling that can make new models look off next to old ones. While it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how that might be a problem for others. I certainly try to get a unified look in my collections whenever possible.
Edit: Manchu puts up a good example. Celestine (or Veridyan in my case), so new Sisters, are well executed updates and put the style of the old one into plastic very well. But put Veridyan next to a metal Sister and the size difference is so irritating I'm going to have to put one of them away again because it ruins the overall appearance of the assembled Sisters.
But necromunda has so few models why would you want to use your old along side your new? One box would replace your whole gang in theory. That's why I don't get why this is a issue.
In the sister example that's only a issue because they didn't replace the whole range. One plastic box of ten would replace your whole old gang anyway.
Me? Specifically in this situation? I wouldn't use my old gang models at all because I hate metal models and very rarely put up with them these days. Which, by the way, is another reason I am all in favor of a real Necromunda redo with new models for the classic gangs.
But what if you lovingly converted some gangers back in the day and want to re-recruit them? You are emotionally attached to them, but putting them next to the new ones just doesn't work for you. And while you may have enough gangers for your last campaign, what if your new campaign with the new Necromunda is more successful for your gang and you need more models? New models are available, but you have to go scour Ebay for old ones because of visual incompatibility? These are valid concerns.
And it's true the real (and everlasting issue) with Sisters is that they don't get updated. The problem is not limited to Sisters, necessarily. If you look at Bloodbowl, only five teams have gotten plastic models so far. Additional resin models are rolled out slowly, and the other teams are made to order old models two decades old that you wouldn't mix in a single team, if GW offered additional models for plastic teams (say a chainsaw goblin or steamroller). So following the Bloodbowl example, if a new Necromunda is released, you have the full rules at your disposal before Christmas and can start playing right away. But only with the two gangs in the boxed set. And you'd better hope you don't roll for any exotic weapons, because there are no models for those yet. If you're hoping for other gangs, you'll get the basic model from February till May. If you're waiting for underhive scum, it could take over a year.
Now sure, it's not like this is the end of the world, and naturally GW cannot release all models at the same time, but specifically for that reason you will get a noticeable period of time in which too few options are covered and players have to go looking for alternatives. One of which could be old models.
I don't think the exotic weapons would be a huge issue since plastic makes this MUCH easier to deal with then what we use to deal with in metal....
Even in the blood bowl example people been converting from plastics over touching the made to order classic teams.
To me as long as each of the 6 classic gangs got a 10 model multipart box of plastics that gives you everything you would ever need. Maby one of those plastic upgrade sprues for exotic weapons like needle rifles, Web gun, etc.
I guess we'll have to agree to (slightly) disagree at this point.
I don't dispute any of what you said, but none of it stops people from being attached to older models that they wish to continue to use and mix with newer ones.
I'm a sci-fi guy. So my 16 yr old self loved the idea of Necromunda, but I always ended up finding it a little stale. Outlanders livened things up but not quite enough.
So when I heard that Mordheim was basically a fantasy version, I gave that a go. And the diversity of the warbands really spoke to me. It remains the only real "fantasy" setting that I've ever really enjoyed playing.
This is rampant wishlisting, and I don't expect this, but I'd love a more diverse Necromunda. Nothing against the original gangs but they were really only different based on aesthetic. You had the steroid punks, the bikers, the female bikers, the cultists, the hi-tech stillsuit wearers, etc. All fine. But with a setting as rich as 40k, with its mutant spawn, daemons, genestealer cults, twisted futuristic steampunk tech, it ends up still being "here's a squad of humans: Give them some guns and then go and kill that squad of humans."
As for the setting, I'm sure Necromunda has space in its spires and underworld for different criminal gangs. Maybe a chaos worshipping cult with some mutated monstrosities taking place of the heavies. A mechanicus cult with some cobbled together robots and drones. Recruit a rogue Ogryn/beastman that escaped from the promethium mines...
Basically, there's no reason to change the setting but even less reason to just reprint it "as is", particularly with the wealth of new options opened up by the modern kits out there.
lord_blackfang wrote: You said I was uneducated because I didn't know a particular English phrase. That's a personal attack and is based on nationalism, therefore hate speech. Maybe ask a mod who isn't strongly invested in the topic for their opinion?
When people disagree with me and/or point out that I am wrong, I also resort to escalated ad hominem personal attacks. I refuse to learn, and wallow in my ignorance!
Manchu wrote: Aye verily. I think GW has woken up to how much money they are leaving on the table for third parties by not leveraging the broader scope of their IP vault. A lot of us have settled for third-party stuff over the years (including rules!) because GW seemed intent on not serving us. (I say this as an Adpeta Sororitas fan.) But I'm not one to hold a grudge. Make good stuff, and I will be all to happy to indulge my latent love of these IPs!
The more ways GW gives me to use their models, the more likely I am to buy them.
Its a situation I haven't seen since WHFB, Mordheim, and Warhammer Quest were all available at the same time. It the new WQ games, AoS, and AoS Skirmish let me use the same models in all three settings, I'm a happy customer because some people will play the board games with me, others will dabble in the smaller games, and a few people will participate in the full scale AoS.
Now with Shadow Wars, I'm more likely to buy the Space Marines vs. Genestealer Cults (the name escapes me for the moment) for the same reason.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vorian wrote: I have a ridiculous amount of the Necromunda metals and my own lovingly converted plastic Goliaths, but I'd be very happy to see all 6 houses with a modern GW plastic release!
Ironically enough...with the multi-part plastic kits GW puts out today, WYSIWYG is a lot easier to achieve without hacksawing the models and putting green stuff in the cracks.
rmeister0 wrote: The more ways GW gives me to use their models, the more likely I am to buy them.
After not buying any 40k products since Dark Vengeance at the beginning of 6E (unless you count Lost Patrol), I have bought:
- 2x SWA box sets
- loads of official terrain
- CSM - DE - GK - GSC - Inq Models
- Skitarii
- (more) SoB - Steel Legion
- (more) Tau
- Tyranid Warriors
- Vostroyans
- Overkill
- Execution Force
All thanks to SWA. I know for a fact I am far from the only one. AoS Skirmish will rationalize more purchases. And Necromunda and Mordheim on top ... oh dear ...
rmeister0 wrote: The more ways GW gives me to use their models, the more likely I am to buy them.
After not buying any 40k products since Dark Vengeance at the beginning of 6E (unless you count Lost Patrol), I have bought:
- 2x SWA box sets
- loads of official terrain
- CSM - DE - GK - GSC - Inq Models
- Skitarii
- (more) SoB - Steel Legion
- (more) Tau
- Tyranid Warriors
- Vostroyans
- Overkill
- Execution Force
All thanks to SWA. I know for a fact I am far from the only one. AoS Skirmish will rationalize more purchases. And Necromunda and Mordheim on top ... oh dear ...
Where the hell did you get 2 boxes of SW:A? Follow up.. did you pay less than $200 each?
The Saturday it went up for pre-order, I sat on the damn computer for 3 hours hammering away at the F5. This is also how I proved that "limited one per order" is meaningless when you can just make two orders. Yes, I made two orders on the website in the less-than-five-minutes SWA boxes were available. No, I never intended to and did not scalp either box on ebay.
Wonder how fast AoS Skirmish will go? Reckon GW printed more than 100 copies?
rmeister0 wrote: The more ways GW gives me to use their models, the more likely I am to buy them.
After not buying any 40k products since Dark Vengeance at the beginning of 6E (unless you count Lost Patrol), I have bought:
- 2x SWA box sets
- loads of official terrain
- CSM - DE - GK - GSC - Inq Models
- Skitarii
- (more) SoB - Steel Legion
- (more) Tau
- Tyranid Warriors
- Vostroyans
- Overkill
- Execution Force
All thanks to SWA. I know for a fact I am far from the only one. AoS Skirmish will rationalize more purchases. And Necromunda and Mordheim on top ... oh dear ...
Where the hell did you get 2 boxes of SW:A? Follow up.. did you pay less than $200 each?
Believe it or not, I was able to get 3 boxes of SWA (one completely unexpected), and paid 130, 150 and 150 fCAD for them. I'm blessed
Small games stores could still be sitting on copies. I got a copy this week from a flgs who has had it sitting in the front window since day one.
I got it for the terrain because I plan on running an inquisgorkamunda RPG game. Will probably play a few games with the rules too to see how they shake out.
So needless to say I'm excited about new plastic miniatures, or even FW resin given what both GS cult and the plastic Chaos cults looked like. Rules wise even if they feth it up I know we can have fun with what rules are already kicking around. If they support it through White Dwarf,even for just a few months that will be great. My guess is I we will see the basic 6 gangs then rules to add other races much like SWA did. However it would be a perfect chance to add GSC right out of the gate.
streetsamurai wrote: Necro is probably as close as it gets as a perfect game. But I would like to see a few of the old gangs either dropped or serioulsy redesigned. Van Saar and Orlocks were terribly bland, and Cawdor became redundant when the much cooler redemptionist were released.
Yeah, I have to agree. Cawdor had a lot of potential if it hadn't just been Redemptionists Lite. The whole medieval vibe was cool in contrast to the sci-fi/punk/Mad Max look of some of the other gangs.
I started with Cawdor back in the day and was quickly disappointed. So many wonderful combat talents, and most of the metal models were clutching rifles into their chests...
Manchu wrote: Well maybe this is an opportunity to incorporate more of the Redempionist stuff into Cawdor.
What gangs would you guys most like to see in the boxed set?
They won't do Escher as that will be a major add on sale later, so my guess will be reskinned goliaths and Orlock. Van Saar could be easily made from GSC figs. Escher as I said would be too good of an added sale to put them in the box. Cawdor could be a contender for the box. But pretty sure they won't put skinheads in the main box just to not get any beef over "white surpremacy" that some idiot would see and try and create a media storm. Oddly enough he would be guilty of stereotyping little bald plastic men .
Manchu wrote: Well maybe this is an opportunity to incorporate more of the Redempionist stuff into Cawdor.
What gangs would you guys most like to see in the boxed set?
I think they're going to have to either further define the two and find a way to really make them stand on their own identities without the bleedover the commonalities causes. That or fold them into one gang.. I dunno..
For a boxed starter I would hope to see Orlock and Van Saar. Why? Because they are polar opposites. I would like Arbites in the boxed set because.. for reasons.. but I think that would make the game seem like "cops and robbers" to the uninitiated.. and getting two gangs that are fundamentally different just makes sense.
Goliath and Delaque would be another option.. and maybe even a better choice but I have a Delaque gang so I went with selfish motivations Removing that, they're a fairly ostentatious pairing and really speak to the over the top nature of the game. Where else can you find Deathklok and Right Said Fred bashing it out?
That would be interesting, but it would muddy the "gang warfare" part of the game by making one of the starting forces not be a gang, making them a police unit with set weapons and equipment.
Orlocks vs Goliath is an obvious choice, but Cawdor vs Escher, or Delaque vs Escher would also be interesting.
streetsamurai wrote: Necro is probably as close as it gets as a perfect game. But I would like to see a few of the old gangs either dropped or serioulsy redesigned. Van Saar and Orlocks were terribly bland, and Cawdor became redundant when the much cooler redemptionist were released.
Yeah, I have to agree. Cawdor had a lot of potential if it hadn't just been Redemptionists Lite. The whole medieval vibe was cool in contrast to the sci-fi/punk/Mad Max look of some of the other gangs.
Agree. I loved the originals game but I hope it's revamped. I understand people saying necromunda is the setting they feel embodies the game but for me the game was gang warfare in a hive environment. It's that aesthetic I want returned to a game format. Having said that I wouldn't be annoyed if it can out as was of old. Mainly because if they change BFG I will cry for a week for all the wrong reasons.
Sort the crap scenarios and that's the worst thing solved.
Personally, I absolutely hate the run away strength that gangs go through. When people are firing BS6 heavy stubbers ignoring one point of cover the game falls apart - so I'd prefer slower progression, more juves (which also progress slower, without a free advance over gangers) and more injuries results on the injury table, which are characterful without screwing guys over when they are injured.
Make it a game of survival rather than super humans running around.
Maybe that's just me
Yeah, I'd be happy with that too. Making juves really have to earn their crust adds value to gangers too. Drop the XP increase bonuses a bit and curb the super-gang tendency. Make it more about equipment and health. The two often go hand in hand. Lobo-chip for head wound etc.
And I always found it funny when your Blind in one eye dual meleé no guns Juve somehow managed to get a BS advance. Not saying there should be a correlation between action in game and types of advances but it sometimes was a bit funny that way.
I'd also add for those complaining that Orlocks were boring. They're a cypher gang. They all are in a way. You make them your own, recruit them, arm them, name them, write up some back story if you like. Then some punk Juve gets in a lucky dig and you roll badly on serious injuries, lets see how little you care for them now. You're furious! You're gonna kill that little punk Juve, its personal now man!
Ah, Necromunda is the best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Redemptionists and Cawdor are not the same.
If you want a gang of Bolter wielding, hard-as-nails bulldogs who never back down, then go Cawdor.
If you want an angry pitchfork mob led by a rabble rousing pyromaniac then go redemption.
I can see them dropping Goliath from the box set cause the whole muscular S&M look just isnt cool. Orlock vs Escher isn't as marketable cause they'd get asked if its some sort of gender based conflict thing. It just wouldn't be worth the potential negative publicity.
I could see Delaque being a bigger part of the story and them going Orlock vs Delaque on the box set. Playing up the whole industrial conflict between those rival houses as the little scenario pack.
Classic Necromunda's core rules are 2nd edition 40k.
I'm hoping that a new Necromunda would be based on 8th edition 40k core rules, and not just a reprint of the old rules.
adamsouza wrote: Classic Necromunda's core rules are 2nd edition 40k.
I'm hoping that a new Necromunda would be based on 8th edition 40k core rules, and not just a reprint of the old rules.
Sort the crap scenarios and that's the worst thing solved.
Personally, I absolutely hate the run away strength that gangs go through. When people are firing BS6 heavy stubbers ignoring one point of cover the game falls apart - so I'd prefer slower progression, more juves (which also progress slower, without a free advance over gangers) and more injuries results on the injury table, which are characterful without screwing guys over when they are injured.
Make it a game of survival rather than super humans running around.
Maybe that's just me
Yeah, I'd be happy with that too. Making juves really have to earn their crust adds value to gangers too. Drop the XP increase bonuses a bit and curb the super-gang tendency. Make it more about equipment and health. The two often go hand in hand. Lobo-chip for head wound etc.
And I always found it funny when your Blind in one eye dual meleé no guns Juve somehow managed to get a BS advance. Not saying there should be a correlation between action in game and types of advances but it sometimes was a bit funny that way.
I'd also add for those complaining that Orlocks were boring. They're a cypher gang. They all are in a way. You make them your own, recruit them, arm them, name them, write up some back story if you like. Then some punk Juve gets in a lucky dig and you roll badly on serious injuries, lets see how little you care for them now. You're furious! You're gonna kill that little punk Juve, its personal now man!
Ah, Necromunda is the best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Redemptionists and Cawdor are not the same.
If you want a gang of Bolter wielding, hard-as-nails bulldogs who never back down, then go Cawdor.
If you want an angry pitchfork mob led by a rabble rousing pyromaniac then go redemption.
I can see them dropping Goliath from the box set cause the whole muscular S&M look just isnt cool. Orlock vs Escher isn't as marketable cause they'd get asked if its some sort of gender based conflict thing. It just wouldn't be worth the potential negative publicity.
I could see Delaque being a bigger part of the story and them going Orlock vs Delaque on the box set. Playing up the whole industrial conflict between those rival houses as the little scenario pack.
We live in a world where Mad Max movies are still a thing so I think Goliath gangs still have great potential.
If anything Orlocks are probably the most aggressively dated of the gangs visually. Rob Liefield re-imagines The Warriors doesn't have a lot of legs these days. They'd be very easy to tweak in to something slightly more relevant though.
I think Goliath/ Orlock is still the most likely starter.
theCrowe wrote: Orlock vs Escher isn't as marketable cause they'd get asked if its some sort of gender based conflict thing. It just wouldn't be worth the potential negative publicity.
Dude, it's 2017! You're more likely to get the "you didn't put Escher in the box because you're misogynist jerks" negative publicity. And that's pretty much a guarantee, rather than some 'misinterpretation' of domestic violence.* Wouldn't kill GW to make some plastic female figs and throw them in the big show. Cuz in the grim darkness of the far future there's only dudes.
First off, I'll say I don't expect to see Necromunda by Xmas. At least not a proper release. Maybe GW has there stuff better to gather than I think, but no. When they re-release it and hopefully is something more than just a terrain bundle, I hope it is updated. I don't just mean new models and cleaned up rules, but more flavour. Necromunda's strength and weakness is that all the gangs are pretty much the same, but only slightly different. The comments about SWA and Mordheim really stuck a chord with me. The gangs have to be more than slightly different. Yes, the original was successful in it's day with that formula...
...but for GW to re-release it, it has to be successful to them now. Maybe there is little value in resulting the 6 gangs because they don't feel they'll get their money back...or not enough in return. (Remember GW is a publicly traded company and not just cool guys making neat toys for you and I.) I do think that SWA has opened their eyes a bit to this market. The easy cash grab would be a reprint of Underhive and build to order Necro gangs. It might be hard to fathom, but the best possible case for GW might be a $50 Necromunda book and letting you buy other company's minis. And the reason is that they would have to make at least two gangs in plastic, with the idea they might make all 6, without knowing if there was a demand for that. A lot of you have said you already have minis and don't really need anymore, and that's GW's fear. On the flipside, I really want to see Steve Bundle make me an Escher gang post-Greyfax model. I think that new sculpts of old gangs would have a lot of old players putting their metal gangs in permanent display if we got stuff the quality of GSC and the Gathering Storm personalities. But I really think what will get GW o do Necro right is figuring out how those gangs might fit into 40K proper. You the Necromunda player might not care about that, but GW needs to sell this figures to more than a second tier filler game to justify "plastic gangs for everyone".
Iain.
* Escher's thing actually is a gender based conflict.
adamsouza wrote: Classic Necromunda's core rules are 2nd edition 40k.
I'm hoping that a new Necromunda would be based on 8th edition 40k core rules, and not just a reprint of the old rules.
Haven't we lost enough game systems to random charges already?
adamsouza wrote: Classic Necromunda's core rules are 2nd edition 40k.
I'm hoping that a new Necromunda would be based on 8th edition 40k core rules, and not just a reprint of the old rules.
Haven't we lost enough game systems to random charges already?
If you want to play the old version, you can do so already. I want an updated one.
I would actually really like random charges to be in, it would solve a lot of problems - however I can't see them releasing SW:A as is and then completely changing Necromunda. That would be bizarre
adamsouza wrote: Classic Necromunda's core rules are 2nd edition 40k.
I'm hoping that a new Necromunda would be based on 8th edition 40k core rules, and not just a reprint of the old rules.
Haven't we lost enough game systems to random charges already?
If you want to play the old version, you can do so already. I want an updated one.
You got one. It's called Shadow War : Armageddon.
I personally hope they keep the setting the same and give us updated gang plastics. And Arbites please. Proper Arbites, not Enforcers or any other BS...
We just had a Bloodbowl goblin team released. It's pretty apparent that GWs threshold for being happy to produce plastic kits has hit an all time low.
Fitting in their schedule is probably a bigger concern then getting their money's worth on a handful of Necromunda gangs in plastic.
Wishlisting:
- A setting based on Necromunda (i.e. with "ordinary" people, gangs, etc. - not 40k soldiers) - but not necessarily Hive Primus
- A:SW-ruleset but improved/tweaked and with a lot more equipment/weapons available and better/deeper campaign system.
- Atleast some of the original gangs + some sort of Uphivers (Spyrers/Brats), perhaps an upgrade set with backslick heads, fancy wigs, etc.)
4 standard gangs:
- Goliaths, although but I think they should be less "Tom of Finland" and more Mad Max:
Spoiler:
Also, their juves would make perfect "Witness this!"-minis - Van Saar, but with a lot more hitech gear.
- Cawdor can be combined with Redemptionists (or even be replaced with an upgrade pack).
- Delaque just needs a lot of the Genestealer cult shotguns, shaved Rutger Hauer Hitchhikers are cool...
2 of the original gangs replaced with a basic ganger sprue (and adding females among other gangs, perhaps even Goliaths...).
- Orlocks could be replaced with a basic ganger sprue.
- Escher was/is my favorite gang - but I could live with female gangers in all gangs instead (with the option to combine them to an Escher gang).
Additional material
- More plastic terrain
- Rules for Flora and Fauna
- Rules for Inquisition
- Rules for Cults (Genestealer, Chaos, Death, etc.)
- Rules for Adeptus Arbites
- Rules for citizen riots
- Separate upgrade sprues for weapons and equipment (even Mung vases?)
- 2 completely new gangs approx two months after the initial release
The metal Arbites were great...and I never had the chance to pick them up back in the day. Sign me up for those too.
Streamline a few things, but keep the rules mostly as is. They should have some more detail than 40k proper. Though, frankly, they made good rules for small scale 40k games as originally intended once you took one or two of the cards out of it.
adamsouza wrote: Classic Necromunda's core rules are 2nd edition 40k.
I'm hoping that a new Necromunda would be based on 8th edition 40k core rules, and not just a reprint of the old rules.
Yeah, RT and 2nd edition rules of 40k were more suited to a skirmish game. The rules of AoS/8th/7th edition of 40k really aren't good to a Skirmish-scale game. At least not to a one with a good amount of tactical deept and freedom of choice.
adamsouza wrote: Classic Necromunda's core rules are 2nd edition 40k.
I'm hoping that a new Necromunda would be based on 8th edition 40k core rules, and not just a reprint of the old rules.
Are you nuts?
Yeah, I don't see that working out too well. 8th is shaping up to be a great battle game but it has some distinct limitations at skirmish scale. You have to completely gut and redo morale for a start. Then, what stat do you check for avoiding falls? Also, what about blasts and templates; for unit-scale combat d6 auto hits on a unit in range works out fine for a flamer, but when every opposing model is effectively a single unit? Either you have extreme overkill or you have to re-work target selection entirely for just those specific guns.
Alternating model activation for combats could work out OK though.
Still, any adaptation of 8th would have to be just that; an adaptation, with all that entails in terms of experimental ideas not necessarily working out as desired. The SW: A ruleset though is basically the final form of a mature ruleset that's been evolving independently for years.
On the topic of a returning Necromunda; am I the only one that would like to see more low-tech gear in the game? I mean I get why lasguns are pretty common but stuff like real boltguns should be rare, not on starter gang lists, and even lasguns and autoguns should be the "fancy" option for gangs flush with cash, with locally smithed semiauto pistols and rifles being the budget option.
At this point it is pretty clear that some people want an actual new edition, while others want the same nineties stuff that they already own reprinted exactly as it is.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's a dishonest way of putting it, but sure...
But yeah, I think we shouldn't expect anything on this prior to Warhammer Fest. If Forgeworld feels inclined to announce Necromunda or share any news of upcoming releases at all, they wouldn't spoil anything before then.
Crimson wrote: At this point it is pretty clear that some people want an actual new edition, while others want the same nineties stuff that they already own reprinted exactly as it is.
Lol.
At this point it's pretty clear some people want Necromunda v3, and others want a completely different game, but for some reason still want it to be called Necromunda.
Crimson wrote: At this point it is pretty clear that some people want an actual new edition, while others want the same nineties stuff that they already own reprinted exactly as it is.
Lol.
At this point it's pretty clear some people want Necromunda v3, and others want a completely different game, but for some reason still want it to be called Necromunda.
The issue about the setting is completely fair. If it is not about gang warfare on Necromunda, it is not Necromunda. The rules are completely different matter, there is really no sensible reason to stick to antiquated 2E 40K mechanics. Necromunda was a 40K spin-off and was based on 40K rules as they were then; similarly Necromunda made today, should be based on current (or soon to be current) 40K mechanics. Some people have serious rose-coloured glasses thing going on with 40K 2E rules; I too have a lot of nostalgic memories about that ruleset (and the spin-offs, mainly Gorkamorka in my case) but really, it is not that great ruleset and I really have no desire to use it any longer.
Crimson wrote: At this point it is pretty clear that some people want an actual new edition, while others want the same nineties stuff that they already own reprinted exactly as it is.
Lol.
At this point it's pretty clear some people want Necromunda v3, and others want a completely different game, but for some reason still want it to be called Necromunda.
The issue about the setting is completely fair. If it is not about gang warfare on Necromunda, it is not Necromunda. The rules are completely different matter, there is really no sensible reason to stick to antiquated 2E 40K mechanics. Necromunda was a 40K spin-off and was based on 40K rules as they were then; similarly Necromunda made today, should be based on current (or soon to be current) 40K mechanics. Some people have serious rose-coloured glasses thing going on with 40K 2E rules; I too have a lot of nostalgic memories about that ruleset (and the spin-offs, mainly Gorkamorka in my case) but really, it is not that great ruleset and I really have no desire to use it any longer.
Fair enough, I suppose. I would point out two things though:
1. Shadow War : Armageddon is based on the original Necromunda rules and seems immensely popular. So popular, even GW were apparently taken by surprise. The rule updates with an expanded campaign system would seem to be something that many people want, or would accept as an update to Necromunda.
2. I admittedly haven't drilled down on the 40K 8th information, but it seems to be a permutation of 7th and not a radical redesign. And since you appear to have been in this hobby for a bit, you are likely well aware that 7th is a changed version of 6th, which is a changed version of 5th, etc. right down to 2nd itself being a changed version of Rogue Trader. Not sure that clamoring for new updated rules is useful when the rules haven't had a major change since the 80's...
I don't personally care nearly as much about the rules as I do the setting, however. I really hope they don't set it somewhere else, or change the aesthetics of the gangs. I do hope the gangs all get updated plastics. I also hope they consider doing Arbites and including Outlander gangs in some way. It would also be cool if they added Hive Brats from Confrontation, maybe as an addition to Spyrer Gangs (and get rid of the seriously bad Matriarch and Patriarch)... So I guess what I'm saying is that I too want an update to things. Update, not radical change. Now get off my lawn!
Taarnak wrote: 2. I admittedly haven't drilled down on the 40K 8th information, but it seems to be a permutation of 7th and not a radical redesign. And since you appear to have been in this hobby for a bit, you are likely well aware that 7th is a changed version of 6th, which is a changed version of 5th, etc. right down to 2nd itself being a changed version of Rogue Trader. Not sure that clamoring for new updated rules is useful when the rules haven't had a major change since the 80's...
Uhhh…
8th edition 40k is a total redesign. Like I alluded to in my post querying the suitability of 8th edition for use in a skirmish type game, the initiative stat is gone in 8th, though they have resurrected Movement. Equally, Morale is d6+losses vs the units Ld and failing means models disappear rather than units running away wholesale.
There are a whole bunch of other changes too, some of which borrow just as heavily from WAoS as the morale bit, like alternating unit activation in close combat replacing initiative.
Fundamentally though, it's a unit vs. unit battle level game rather than a model vs. model skirmish game, which is why I don't think it would be suitable for use in a Necromunda update without some hefty changes.
Taarnak wrote: 2. I admittedly haven't drilled down on the 40K 8th information, but it seems to be a permutation of 7th and not a radical redesign. And since you appear to have been in this hobby for a bit, you are likely well aware that 7th is a changed version of 6th, which is a changed version of 5th, etc. right down to 2nd itself being a changed version of Rogue Trader. Not sure that clamoring for new updated rules is useful when the rules haven't had a major change since the 80's...
Uhhh…
8th edition 40k is a total redesign. Like I alluded to in my post querying the suitability of 8th edition for use in a skirmish type game, the initiative stat is gone in 8th, though they have resurrected Movement. Equally, Morale is d6+losses vs the units Ld and failing means models disappear rather than units running away wholesale.
There are a whole bunch of other changes too, some of which borrow just as heavily from WAoS as the morale bit, like alternating unit activation in close combat replacing initiative.
Fundamentally though, it's a unit vs. unit battle level game rather than a model vs. model skirmish game, which is why I don't think it would be suitable for use in a Necromunda update without some hefty changes.
It's still a permutation of the same old gak. Same underlying rules from what, admittedly little, I've read. I could be entirely wrong. I do think, however, that you have a different definition for "total redesign" than I do.
Going from 40K to Starship Troopers would have been a total redesign. New concepts all around. Adjusting how things work is not a total redesign. It doesn't have the radical departure from the familiar that, for example, Age of Sigmar seems to have had from Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
So, that's where I'm coming from, just to be clear. Also, I suppose this whole tangent is off topic, so I'll drop it from here out.
Taarnak wrote: At this point it's pretty clear some people want Necromunda v3, and others want a completely different game, but for some reason still want it to be called Necromunda.
I don't think n this is at all fair, but if you think it's only Necromunda if it has exactly the same rules, setting, and gangs that's your prerogative, but I have to ask why you need anything new, anyway?
I like the concept of the original rules. Combat between small groups, with more detail than 40K, and a system for upgrading your group between games. I'd rather see new, better rules that do these things than just a reprint if the old rules, otherwise why bother?
I see no need to change the setting, but we have to remember Necromunda is already a huge place. Plenty of room for new things.
Finally, the gangs. I've got a nostalgic affection for the original gangs, but you have to admit most of the are very much dated. Rather than just resculpt the Goliath, Eshers, Orlocks, etc. I'd love to see new gangs. After all, there are At least a half dozen hive cities on Necromunda, each home to a trillion or more inhabitants. Surely there are more gangs than we have seen? In the whole wasteland more Outlandars than we have seen. In the upper levels more adventurers, thrill seekers and other upscale types that we don't know yet? Sure, include the rules to play the "legacy" gangs but give us new sculpts of new gangs to play, too.
Taarnak wrote: At this point it's pretty clear some people want Necromunda v3, and others want a completely different game, but for some reason still want it to be called Necromunda.
I don't think n this is at all fair, but if you think it's only Necromunda if it has exactly the same rules, setting, and gangs that's your prerogative, but I have to ask why you need anything new, anyway?
That was me poking fun at the message I quoted in that post.
As to the rest, I mostly agree with you. Read my other replies.
I would rather see an updated version of the rules for the original Necromunda than see a version that tries to use the editions of 40K from 3 on up - in spite of the fact that for a large scale wargame, I vastly prefer 3rd edition to 2nd. (For that matter, I vastly prefer 3rd to 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th....)
For a small scale skirmish game, 2nd allowed a lot more detail, while 3e was much more streamlined, and handled structures and vehicles in a much saner manner.
That said - if they can make a more balanced version of those older rules, I would be quite happy. (More accurately, the lists for the gangs themselves - not all gangs are created equal, and some gangs could pull into the lead early on, then hold on to that lead. And then... there were Spyrer gangs.... Grrrrr.)
A completely new set of rules that allow that same level of detail would also be quite fine with me.
The Auld Grump - playing a quick one shot game tonight, so that Megan can get some hands on experience before we attempt a campaign.
The old rules were solid, and just how solid can be seen by how many subsequent games took them and tweaked them: Gorkamorka, Mordheim, Frosgrave, and many others. Most of the issues were caused by strict adherence to 40K rules at the expense of a balanced skirmish game: parries were too good, the lasgun was the best basic weapon, other weapons weren't worth taking at all. We house-ruled them all years ago, which is all you really need. A cleaned-up re-balanced version of the original Necromunda might be great fun. In particular I'd like to see all the skills re-worked from the ground up. I'll be a lot less interested in something largely new using the same setting.
The rules for Necromunda (and Mordheim and Gorka) have not held up particularly well. It feels clunky and old fashioned. It's IGO UGO and has a lot of D6 rolling followed by further D6 tables for different effects. It's classic GW rules design.
I think there are more modern takes on the same concept that could be the inspiration for updated rules (e.g. "This is not a Test", "Deadzone", "Infinity"). The single main thing I would look to change is activation away from IGO UGO and towards alternating activation, random activation or something else.
plessiez wrote: The rules for Necromunda (and Mordheim and Gorka) have not held up particularly well. It feels clunky and old fashioned. It's IGO UGO and has a lot of D6 rolling followed by further D6 tables for different effects. It's classic GW rules design.
I think there are more modern takes on the same concept that could be the inspiration for updates rules. The single main thing I would look to change is activation away from IGO UGO and towards alternating activation, random activation or something else.
Well not that 8th ed changes turn order and is rolling d6 on very narrow range band most of the time(3+ to 5+). Also has tons of rules like leadership that needs to be redesigned from scratch.
Given there's no actual news or rumours since page 1 and this is all arguing and wishlisting maybe a mod could close until there is more news? I keep clicking in when thisbthread surfaces and there's nothing that would be relevant to the N&R section any time.
Ahem, actually the plastic immolator saw 2/3 of a plastic female human 
.
what is a sesame anyway?
happened to all the sesame seeds? My buns are blank."
It was her first 'just for fun' miniature - with no intent to use it in a game.)
