Okay, just finished Dark Imperium, and it's a good read! Some highlights:
Primaris Marines:
Larger and stronger than old type Marines
Further differences include irridial whorls marking their hands and extra organs in their brains
Physically closer to the Primarchs than old type Marines
Not vat-grown, at least not all, the main Primairs Marine we follow was actually from around the time of the Heresy, he was a 13 year old aspirant looking to join the Ultramarine Legion before getting poached for the Primaris project.
Come in all nine loyalist flavours, though Cawl has been working on all twenty varieties of gene-seed and says that they're all ready for production, though Guilliman refuses to do so, he doesn't entirely trust Cawl not have done so already.
Tens of thousands of Primaris Marines were present at the ultima founding. Only half were put formed into new Chapters. The other half essentially fought as a Legion called the Unnumbered Sons.
The Unnumbered Sons fought in the colours and heraldry of their parent Chapter, but with a grey chevron covering part of the Chapter symbol. They fought in groups of mixed gene lineage to learn each others strengths better and because Guilliman believed that the distance between the various Legions played a big part in the Heresy.
The Unnumbered Sons were steadily drained as the Indomitus Crusade went on, dribs and drabs going off to reinforce and become part of existing Chapters or too found new Chapters based where Guilliman thought they were necessary. They are disbanded totally at the end of the Crusade.
By the end of the Crusade Primaris Marines are believed to be accepted by 94% of Chapters.
The Primaris Marines easily overcome the Iron Warriors but are more evenly matched by the Death Guard.
As of yet unseen units!
Aggressors: Wearing gravis armour and armed with flamers of some kind.
Reivers: Infiltration and close combat specialists, wear a special stealth armour and carry powered blades. Have skull helmets.
Overlord: A flyer so big it's described as making a Thunderhawk look like a toy, so probably not coming to tables soon but you never know.
Guilliman:
No longer sleeps after being brought back from the dead.
Feels very conflicted about the Emperor, he's still loyal and would gladly die again for the Imperium, but found out that the Emperor never considered the Primarch to be anything more than tools and blames him for the Heresy with all his lies.
Unsure whether the Emperor is a God or not, though still leaning towards no.
Created an order of historians to try and piece together a comprehensive true history of the Imperium, the Inquisition does not like this.
Regrets disbanding Ultramar because it could have been a brighter symbol for the rest of the Imperium, but is bringing it back Tetrarchs and all.
Cawl:
Very secretive and crazy smart.
Was considered a radical even in the much more open minded Mechanicum. Which is why Guilliman approached him about the Primaris project.
Currently tasked with recreating the Pylons so Guilliman can seal the holes in space.
Is working with trying to find intact Pylons, and working with Eldar, Necron and Old One technology. He believes each race had a piece of a bigger picture and that by combining their works he can do big things.
Really wants to be Fabricator-General of Mars but is way too Heretek for it.
Guilliman forsees a time where he may become a problem for the Imperium.
Mortarion:
Never got over his hatred for warpcraft, despite becoming a daemon.
Not following Nurgle's plan much to the disgust of Typhus, though he personally believes Nurgle would be pleased by his initiative.
He hunted his alien step-dad's soul across the warp and has it imprison in a jar, where he torments it with spiritual sicknesses.
Like Fulgrim did 10,000 years ago he's trying to kill Guilliman because he knows the Imperium will collapse without him.
Custodes:
Have been in a depression for ten thousand years, but Guilliman has set a real fire under them. Now he worries their rage might consume them.
Sisters of Silence:
Dwindled almost to nothing over time, though Guilliman is trying to get them back into gear.
Worship the Emperor as a God.
The date:
The Indomitus Crusade ends 112 years after it starts after the end of Gathering Storm.
However it turns out that there's been a lot of infighting and factionalisim in the Ordo Chronos so there are actually five different major imperial calendars and dating systems, and many many smaller ones. Guilliman can only calculate the actual date as being somewhere in early M.41 or a thousand years later.
I'll add more if I think of any, and of course if you've also read it feel free to add anything I've missed.
The Primaris Marines easily overcome the Iron Warriors but are more evenly matched by the Death Guard.
in fairness this could be part of leadership. the book eistablishes fairly clearly that traitor marines are easily defeated unless they have a strong warlord uniting them.
Very neat, it has been a long time since I picked up a 40k book to read. I might actually get this one, it seems like it could be a real good way to get my head around what has been happening recently. Dropped out of 40k an edition or two ago and haven't followed any of the recent storyline advancements. Just getting back into the universe and feel a bit lost.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Very neat, it has been a long time since I picked up a 40k book to read. I might actually get this one, it seems like it could be a real good way to get my head around what has been happening recently. Dropped out of 40k an edition or two ago and haven't followed any of the recent storyline advancements. Just getting back into the universe and feel a bit lost.
the book so far is pretty good and doesn't require a vast in depth familairity with the setting, although theres lots of good stuff to be found that way. such as a apperance from Uriel Ventris (Gulliman approves of his "occasionally breaking the rules" )
Hey for anyone who has access to the book already, is there any mention of the death or maiming of Cato Sicarius, they say in the Primaris pamphlet that in his abscence, a Primaris named Acheron is leading the 2nd company...
21stPrimarch wrote: Hey for anyone who has access to the book already, is there any mention of the death or maiming of Cato Sicarius, they say in the Primaris pamphlet that in his abscence, a Primaris named Acheron is leading the 2nd company...
his absence is because Cato is with Gulliman leading the Victrix guard.
MurderKing wrote: So there's a chance that there are already Night Lord and Alpha Legion Primaris Marines running around?
Maybe but just like the other foundings that MAY have used the traitor geneseed it's likely it would be hidden.
I'm just stoked that there's a chance.
yeah and I think GW deliberatly did that so as to give people who like the idea of traitor loyalists a chance for their chapter to be secretly descended from traitors.
21stPrimarch wrote: Hey for anyone who has access to the book already, is there any mention of the death or maiming of Cato Sicarius, they say in the Primaris pamphlet that in his abscence, a Primaris named Acheron is leading the 2nd company...
his absence is because Cato is with Gulliman leading the Victrix guard.
ohhhhhh they address that in the book? awesome. you are the man. can i bug you for one more question. Do they mention anything about the future of the chapters? will they still make marines from their regular geneseed in addition to primaris? is making a current marine primaris spoken of? if its a difficult process i could see maybe Dante and a few others getting upgraded, but if its easy then maybe all will soon be upgraded.
21stPrimarch wrote: Hey for anyone who has access to the book already, is there any mention of the death or maiming of Cato Sicarius, they say in the Primaris pamphlet that in his abscence, a Primaris named Acheron is leading the 2nd company...
his absence is because Cato is with Gulliman leading the Victrix guard.
ohhhhhh they address that in the book? awesome. you are the man. can i bug you for one more question. Do they mention anything about the future of the chapters? will they still make marines from their regular geneseed in addition to primaris? is making a current marine primaris spoken of? if its a difficult process i could see maybe Dante and a few others getting upgraded, but if its easy then maybe all will soon be upgraded.
I've not gotten far eneugh in the book to say one way or another, sorry :(
Arcsquad12 wrote: So with the Indomitus Crusade lasting over a century, does that officially put the timeline in early M42?
... maybe? see this
However it turns out that there's been a lot of infighting and factionalisim in the Ordo Chronos so there are actually five different major imperial calendars and dating systems, and many many smaller ones. Guilliman can only calculate the actual date as being somewhere in early M.41 or a thousand years later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Space Wolves sucessor Chapter, titled "The Wolfspear"
Whoopee, another bloke who's been around since the Heresy. Honestly feels like half the universe has now.
Not bad, overall, for a Marine story i must admit. I'm slightly concerned about theborder of historians creating a 'true history of the Imperium'. That sounds dangerously like the creation of 'canon' which is toxic.
I like Guilliman's conflict over the Emperor. That's neat. Don't like Cawl's idea that each race's technology holds a piece to the puzzle of defeating chaos. I'm not saying the writers would do this as i've been surprised by their tact with some of the more worrisome ideas, but it feels like it's setting up a future superfriends scenario which would be as insipid as the existing superfriends scenarios.
Is there any mention of the Ministorium and in particular anything about St Celestine - some interesting stuff with her in Gathering Storm and wondered how RG relates to her and the Sisters of Battle?
Ynneadwraith wrote: Whoopee, another bloke who's been around since the Heresy. Honestly feels like half the universe has now.
Not bad, overall, for a Marine story i must admit. I'm slightly concerned about theborder of historians creating a 'true history of the Imperium'. That sounds dangerously like the creation of 'canon' which is toxic.
I like Guilliman's conflict over the Emperor. That's neat. Don't like Cawl's idea that each race's technology holds a piece to the puzzle of defeating chaos. I'm not saying the writers would do this as i've been surprised by their tact with some of the more worrisome ideas, but it feels like it's setting up a future superfriends scenario which would be as insipid as the existing superfriends scenarios.
Just because Cawl thinks it's the case doesn't mean it is. sounds like he mostly wants an excuse to scavage alien tech. I definatly get a sense of forbodding re Cawl. the man is both radical, AND ambitious. he wants Gulliman to install him as Fabricator General, and Gulliman says he wants to meet Cawl "face to face" but apparentl;;y for some reason that may be diffifcult. which leads me to suspect Cawl is doing something naughty.
Don't like Cawl's idea that each race's technology holds a piece to the puzzle of defeating chaos. I'm not saying the writers would do this as i've been surprised by their tact with some of the more worrisome ideas, but it feels like it's setting up a future superfriends scenario which would be as insipid as the existing superfriends scenarios.
Actually no. Cawl has struck me as a power hungry mad radical with a gargantuan ego that's almost looking he's about to double cross everyone. Just a pointer: he has an AI he calls Cawl Inferior and masquerades as a program. He just doesn't give feths and wants to get his way on everything.
Mr Morden wrote: Is there any mention of the Ministorium and in particular anything about St Celestine - some interesting stuff with her in Gathering Storm and wondered how RG relates to her and the Sisters of Battle?
A Ministorum priest is a fairly major character in the book, actually, and has a great byplay with Roboute.
Basically, what I got from the book is that Roboute sees the Ministorum as a potential force for good, but not as it is now, and is starting to try and change it from the inside by installing his own preferred people in positions of influence.
Iracundus wrote: What marks the end of the Crusade? What were the objectives and to what extent were they achieved?
He's been up and down the length and breadth of the Imperium, and even made forays across the rift, distributing the Primaris Marines, shattering traitor strongholds and fleets.
Guilliman doesn't actually see it is an end to anything, he's just ready for the next stage of his plan, but he feels the Imperium needs a big victory so he throws an Ullanor style triumph.
The Primaris Marines easily overcome the Iron Warriors but are more evenly matched by the Death Guard.
in fairness this could be part of leadership. the book eistablishes fairly clearly that traitor marines are easily defeated unless they have a strong warlord uniting them.
Definitely, I was just talking in a man to man sense. Iron Warriors not being so blessed as the Death Guard were destroyed easier.
21stPrimarch wrote: ohhhhhh they address that in the book? awesome. you are the man. can i bug you for one more question. Do they mention anything about the future of the chapters? will they still make marines from their regular geneseed in addition to primaris? is making a current marine primaris spoken of? if its a difficult process i could see maybe Dante and a few others getting upgraded, but if its easy then maybe all will soon be upgraded.
Guilliman makes it no secret that Primaris is the new paradigm and that the days of the old type Marines are numbered. Not in a sinister Thunder Warriors way, just that he expects all future Marines to be Primaris. That said not all Chapters are yet to accept them, so doubtless GW will leave that avenue open for old types to stick around.
Mr Morden wrote: Is there any mention of the Ministorium and in particular anything about St Celestine - some interesting stuff with her in Gathering Storm and wondered how RG relates to her and the Sisters of Battle?
Guilliman doesn't like them much, and doesn't really make a secret of the fact he doesn't see the Emperor or himself as divine, but apparently once he's tallied everything on his spreadsheet considers them a force for good.
They consider Guilliman to be very holy and Guilliman struggles to find any he can have a conversation with because of the religious ecstasy they feel around him.
Guilliman has created a position within the Ministorum, that of Militant-Apostolic, that he appoints himself. The current one privately sees it as his divine mission to bring Guilliman to see the Emperor and Guilliman himself as Gods.
Guilliman has created a position within the Ministorum, that of Militant-Apostolic, that he appoints himself. The current one privately sees it as his divine mission to bring Guilliman to see the Emperor and Guilliman himself as Gods.
"Only the true Messiah denies His divinity." - Life of Brian
MurderKing wrote: So there's a chance that there are already Night Lord and Alpha Legion Primaris Marines running around?
Spoiler: All Primaris Marines are Alpha Legion.
And Guilliman is actually Alpharius. The real Guilliman died long ago.
Hydra Dominatus.
for for feths sake. stop it/ seriously STOP. it's not funny, people are coming here for actual info and the last thing they want is alpha legion bs fake news.
yeah, implying the geneseed of the two lost legions wasn't destroyed. VERY intreasting adds some intreasting new snags to the chapters with unidentified primarchs.
Finished the book. Not bad, but not amazing either. Fits in with most of the mediocre stuff from the Heresy series.
Guilliman's portrayal is somewhat interesting. He's terribly lonely, and terribly tired. The weight of the entire Imperium is riding on his shoulders, and he's doing the best he can. He's absolutely sick of having to push past the self-interest of many officials though. He resurrects the Tetrarchs to govern the Five Hundred Worlds, even though there's a large number of those worlds who deny they were ever part of Ultramar and don't want to rejoin his private empire.
Calgar is hanging about feeling naff because he keeps seeing barbs in Guilliman's words that aren't here. For example, when Guilliman comes back to clear out Morty and says that he'll make sure all these cultists and problems go away, Calgar feels like that's a reproach on his inability to solve these problems, that he just keeps on failing. He also has some hangups about Guilliman's furniture. Apparently he used to go and hang around the Primarch's stash of household equipment to think and 'take in' the ambience of these holy relics; now Guilliman's back and lounging about them like they mean nothing and it somehow feels vaguely sacrilegious to him. Generally, he's also having a lot of 'Never meet your hero' complex, Guilliman wasn't quite what he was expecting.
Typhon keeps taunting Mortarion going 'You ain't the boss of me, I stand higher with Daddy Nurgle because I brought you and the Death Guard over to him', and generally sassing him and Ku'Gath. Frankly, Mortarion went down a lot in my estimation, he seems to have been reduced to the Plague God's whipping boy.
Cawl is decidedly salty about not being appointed Fabricator-General. He keeps asking Guilliman every time they talk apparently. Guilliman has him running around trying to find a way to replicate the Necron pylons, desperate to get rid of the warp rift across the middle of the galaxy as Priority No. 1. He generally seems to have too much power though, Guilliman is exceedingly suspicious of him. There are remarks about how ten thousand years alive has effectively stripped him of his humanity. Ol' Cawl is only one step away from being an AI himself, really.
Guilliman reminisces about his meeting with his dad. The gist of it boils down to the Emperor being virtually nothing of what he used to be. All subtlety is gone. He's just this raging mass of psychic power hooked up to a chair and only half there.
A few quotes:-
Spoiler:
There were but a handful alive now who remembered the Great Heresy War. The teeming multitudes of the Imperium had no inkling of the dream Horus’ betrayal had killed. Few beings lived that would have noted the changes the Avenging Son of Ultramar had undergone. His patrician’s face was lined, more with cares than with years, and sunken in on itself a touch, especially around the cheeks. He was still handsome, if not beautiful, for all the Emperor’s sons had been made to be perfect in thought and form. But though his features had a fineness a sculptor would struggle to capture, his was an eroded handsomeness, worn at the edges like a mountain’s crags. His golden hair had thinned a little, and at the temples were a few strands of grey. Pale brown circles gathered under his eyes when he grew tired, and there was tightness in his jaw, a legacy of the internal pain he had borne since his resurrection.
Before the crusade, the Macragge’s Honour had undergone an extensive refit in shipyards of the Ring of Iron around Mars, and the command deck had been entirely reconfigured from Guilliman’s day. Archmagos Cawl’s stamp was on everything. New machines and unheard of configurations of old devices replaced equipment that had been in use for tens of centuries. The tech-priests had been outraged, but Guilliman had silenced them, and Cawl had had his way.
The result was worth upsetting the Adeptus Mechanicus’ religious sensibilities. The machinery still had the ugly look of 41st millennium technology, but Guilliman reckoned there was a ten per cent increase in tactical responsiveness alone. Multiple redundancies and newly integrated systems allowed for better survivability. Dozens of tech-priests from Cawl’s faction laboured to keep the archmagos’ finely balanced design working, but it did work, and excellently so.
A century on from his rebirth, Guilliman had not yet grasped all the events of the ten millennia since he fell. Belisarius Cawl had provided the primarch with painful but necessary machine-moderated engrammatic updates, but Cawl was a secretive creature, detached from the wider galaxy while he pursued his quest to create the Primaris Space Marines. His records were incomplete, sometimes highly fragmentary, and all of them were short on detail.
Once again, Guilliman had found his own efforts were required to make up for the shortcomings of others.
The discipline of history, like so much else based on reason, had fallen foul of superstition, fanaticism and the High Lords of Terra’s need for iron control. Comparative and corroborative analytical techniques had given way to the recording of gossip, hearsay and folklore. All was liberally mixed with works of complete fabrication. Imperial interference in redacting chronicles, misguidedly or not, had further destroyed much of the past. War had eradicated the histories of entire worlds. Much knowledge had been burned by zealous inquisitors, often in order to suppress a single uncomfortable truth. If anything, the state of man’s knowledge was worse than it was back after the Unification Wars, when the Emperor had unified Terra before the Great Crusade. Much of Terra’s ancient history, painstakingly pieced together by the remembrancers of Guilliman’s own era, had been lost again.
Knowledge of the warp’s true nature had been suppressed, but patchily so. The great deception the Emperor had practised had become impossible to sustain, though that had not stopped the Inquisition from trying. Knowledge of daemons or the Dark Gods was forbidden. Many innocents had paid the ultimate price for accidentally learning the truth.
Even Guilliman, the Imperial Regent himself, faced opposition from the Inquisition in his quest for knowledge. To oppose their puritanical redactionism, he had trained his own corps of historitors. Between campaigns, he sought out inquisitive minds, exactly the sort that had long been frowned upon, rescuing them from penal servitude and impending brain wipe. The first handful he had tutored himself, when time allowed. They in turn taught more, and more still. Each one was assessed by the primarch personally. Those that passed were given the rank of historitor-investigatus. Those that failed to meet his exacting standards were given less taxing roles within the new organisation, as librarians, servants and assistants. From his reading, Guilliman had learnt that the brutal machinery of Imperial government was unkind to failures, yet another thing that saddened him about the present age. The primarch had enough blood upon his conscience, and a much finer grasp of how to get the most out of his subjects. No life was wasted.
Some changes had been made to Imperial salvaging policies within the fleet. Guilliman had ordered the wrecks of the traitor’s ships to be utterly destroyed. It had been the habit of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Navy to recover enemy ships. Chaos vessels were of Imperial make, and were often of older, superior patterns. The primarch stamped hard on the practice. Build new ships, he had said. Leave the past where it is. The corruption of the warp buried itself deeply into whatever it touched.
The Martians had not been happy with that. They had looked upon the older marques of vessel with greedy eyes. Examples had been made.
The tribune’s contempt for baseline humanity troubled Guilliman.
‘You have spent your life guarding the Emperor, yet you forget who the Emperor guards in His turn,’ said Guilliman. ‘Be more forgiving.’
‘As you wish,’ said Colquan. Traditionally, the Adeptus Custodes had taken orders only from their own officers and the Emperor. That was until Guilliman had been declared Imperial Regent: the Emperor’s living voice.
At the thought of his fathers, the memory of the sights he had witnessed in the throne room a century ago intruded violently into his mind. Against the odds, something lingered on the Golden Throne. His last encounter with his true father had been a spear of light and pain whose psychic aftershocks troubled him still. The Emperor had lost His subtlety.
So just finished the book, man, massive cliffhanger. my guess is the battle where Gulliman fights Mortarian is gonna be detailed in a campaign book that'll include stuff on death guard and new Primaris units
Just because Cawl thinks it's the case doesn't mean it is. sounds like he mostly wants an excuse to scavage alien tech. I definatly get a sense of forbodding re Cawl. the man is both radical, AND ambitious. he wants Gulliman to install him as Fabricator General, and Gulliman says he wants to meet Cawl "face to face" but apparentl;;y for some reason that may be diffifcult. which leads me to suspect Cawl is doing something naughty.
Actually no. Cawl has struck me as a power hungry mad radical with a gargantuan ego that's almost looking he's about to double cross everyone. Just a pointer: he has an AI he calls Cawl Inferior and masquerades as a program. He just doesn't give feths and wants to get his way on everything.
You guys have no idea how happy I am to read that the general feeling of noblebright in the latest fluff had left a really bad taste in my mouth, but it's massively refreshing to hear that all is not well at all in the New Imperium.
Not vat-grown, at least not all, the main Primairs Marine we follow was actually from around the time of the Heresy, he was a 13 year old aspirant looking to join the Ultramarine Legion before getting poached for the Primaris project.
Wait, what? Guilliman reformed the Ultramarines as a Legion?
Come in all nine loyalist flavours, though Cawl has been working on all twenty varieties of gene-seed and says that they're all ready for production, though Guilliman refuses to do so, he doesn't entirely trust Cawl not have done so already.
Waaaait, did they say "all" or did they say "all 20?"
Not vat-grown, at least not all, the main Primairs Marine we follow was actually from around the time of the Heresy, he was a 13 year old aspirant looking to join the Ultramarine Legion before getting poached for the Primaris project.
Wait, what? Guilliman reformed the Ultramarines as a Legion?
No, the Primaris Marine was originally from an era when the Ultramarines were still a Legion.
Not vat-grown, at least not all, the main Primairs Marine we follow was actually from around the time of the Heresy, he was a 13 year old aspirant looking to join the Ultramarine Legion before getting poached for the Primaris project.
Wait, what? Guilliman reformed the Ultramarines as a Legion?
No, the Primaris Marine was originally from an era when the Ultramarines were still a Legion.
Not vat-grown, at least not all, the main Primairs Marine we follow was actually from around the time of the Heresy, he was a 13 year old aspirant looking to join the Ultramarine Legion before getting poached for the Primaris project.
Wait, what? Guilliman reformed the Ultramarines as a Legion?
Come in all nine loyalist flavours, though Cawl has been working on all twenty varieties of gene-seed and says that they're all ready for production, though Guilliman refuses to do so, he doesn't entirely trust Cawl not have done so already.
Waaaait, did they say "all" or did they say "all 20?"
Not vat-grown, at least not all, the main Primairs Marine we follow was actually from around the time of the Heresy, he was a 13 year old aspirant looking to join the Ultramarine Legion before getting poached for the Primaris project.
Wait, what? Guilliman reformed the Ultramarines as a Legion?
Come in all nine loyalist flavours, though Cawl has been working on all twenty varieties of gene-seed and says that they're all ready for production, though Guilliman refuses to do so, he doesn't entirely trust Cawl not have done so already.
Waaaait, did they say "all" or did they say "all 20?"
By the end of the Crusade Primaris Marines are believed to be accepted by 94% of Chapters.
What are the 6% of the chapters that don't accept them?
Never mentioned. Though I imagine Grey Knights will be one on account of their unique gene-seed.
I'd think this is more of a back-door for keeping your personal chapters Primaris free if you want too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
buddha wrote: Any mention of the grey knights on the crusade? They seem so much less "special" in the grand scheme of the setting now.
The Grey Knights are mentioned as serving in the Indomitus Crusade. When attacking a traitor fleet and superstructure around a planet Guilliman had them stationed throughout his fleet to thwart any Traitor attempts to summon daemonic trouble.
buddha wrote: Also, just to clarify, the setting may have fast forwarded almost a thousand years? Cool.
Not quite. The setting is now 112 years on from where we last left it, but the actual date could be much earlier or later than M41.999 because the Imperium has been bad at keeping a consistent calendar. It'd would be like discovering we were actually potentially in 1950 to 2050 rather than 2017.
By the Emperor, this is all so cool! I am super excited about the things to come for 40K!
Animus wrote: Okay, just finished Dark Imperium, and it's a good read! Some highlights:
Spoiler:
Primaris Marines:
Larger and stronger than old type Marines
Further differences include irridial whorls marking their hands and extra organs in their brains
Physically closer to the Primarchs than old type Marines
Not vat-grown, at least not all, the main Primairs Marine we follow was actually from around the time of the Heresy, he was a 13 year old aspirant looking to join the Ultramarine Legion before getting poached for the Primaris project.
Come in all nine loyalist flavours, though Cawl has been working on all twenty varieties of gene-seed and says that they're all ready for production, though Guilliman refuses to do so, he doesn't entirely trust Cawl not have done so already.
Tens of thousands of Primaris Marines were present at the ultima founding. Only half were put formed into new Chapters. The other half essentially fought as a Legion called the Unnumbered Sons.
The Unnumbered Sons fought in the colours and heraldry of their parent Chapter, but with a grey chevron covering part of the Chapter symbol. They fought in groups of mixed gene lineage to learn each others strengths better and because Guilliman believed that the distance between the various Legions played a big part in the Heresy.
The Unnumbered Sons were steadily drained as the Indomitus Crusade went on, dribs and drabs going off to reinforce and become part of existing Chapters or too found new Chapters based where Guilliman thought they were necessary. They are disbanded totally at the end of the Crusade.
By the end of the Crusade Primaris Marines are believed to be accepted by 94% of Chapters.
The Primaris Marines easily overcome the Iron Warriors but are more evenly matched by the Death Guard.
Cool stuff! Interesting to see all 20 of gene-seeds being worked on. Hopefully nothing major gets revealed about the lost Legions though, that is one mystery that ought to stay a mystery.
As of yet unseen units!
Aggressors: Wearing gravis armour and armed with flamers of some kind.
Reivers: Infiltration and close combat specialists, wear a special stealth armour and carry powered blades. Have skull helmets.
Overlord: A flyer so big it's described as making a Thunderhawk look like a toy, so probably not coming to tables soon but you never know.
Neat!
Guilliman:
No longer sleeps after being brought back from the dead.
Feels very conflicted about the Emperor, he's still loyal and would gladly die again for the Imperium, but found out that the Emperor never considered the Primarch to be anything more than tools and blames him for the Heresy with all his lies.
Unsure whether the Emperor is a God or not, though still leaning towards no.
Created an order of historians to try and piece together a comprehensive true history of the Imperium, the Inquisition does not like this.
Regrets disbanding Ultramar because it could have been a brighter symbol for the rest of the Imperium, but is bringing it back Tetrarchs and all.
Hey, look, it's some character development!
Cawl:
Very secretive and crazy smart.
Was considered a radical even in the much more open minded Mechanicum. Which is why Guilliman approached him about the Primaris project.
Currently tasked with recreating the Pylons so Guilliman can seal the holes in space.
Is working with trying to find intact Pylons, and working with Eldar, Necron and Old One technology. He believes each race had a piece of a bigger picture and that by combining their works he can do big things.
Really wants to be Fabricator-General of Mars but is way too Heretek for it.
Guilliman forsees a time where he may become a problem for the Imperium.
Interesting to read. For a new character, he doesn't feel completely out of place now.
Mortarion:
Never got over his hatred for warpcraft, despite becoming a daemon.
Not following Nurgle's plan much to the disgust of Typhus, though he personally believes Nurgle would be pleased by his initiative.
He hunted his alien step-dad's soul across the warp and has it imprison in a jar, where he torments it with spiritual sicknesses.
Like Fulgrim did 10,000 years ago he's trying to kill Guilliman because he knows the Imperium will collapse without him.
Cool stuff.
Custodes:
Have been in a depression for ten thousand years, but Guilliman has set a real fire under them. Now he worries their rage might consume them.
More development, nice!
Sisters of Silence:
Dwindled almost to nothing over time, though Guilliman is trying to get them back into gear.
Worship the Emperor as a God.
The date:
The Indomitus Crusade ends 112 years after it starts after the end of Gathering Storm.
However it turns out that there's been a lot of infighting and factionalisim in the Ordo Chronos so there are actually five different major imperial calendars and dating systems, and many many smaller ones. Guilliman can only calculate the actual date as being somewhere in early M.41 or a thousand years later.
This is hilarious, and a perfect example of how the Imperium of Man keeps goofing things up.
I'll add more if I think of any, and of course if you've also read it feel free to add anything I've missed.
Ketara wrote: Finished the book. Not bad, but not amazing either. Fits in with most of the mediocre stuff from the Heresy series.
Guilliman's portrayal is somewhat interesting. He's terribly lonely, and terribly tired. The weight of the entire Imperium is riding on his shoulders, and he's doing the best he can. He's absolutely sick of having to push past the self-interest of many officials though. He resurrects the Tetrarchs to govern the Five Hundred Worlds, even though there's a large number of those worlds who deny they were ever part of Ultramar and don't want to rejoin his private empire.
Again, actual character development for the Primarch.
Calgar is hanging about feeling naff because he keeps seeing barbs in Guilliman's words that aren't here. For example, when Guilliman comes back to clear out Morty and says that he'll make sure all these cultists and problems go away, Calgar feels like that's a reproach on his inability to solve these problems, that he just keeps on failing. He also has some hangups about Guilliman's furniture. Apparently he used to go and hang around the Primarch's stash of household equipment to think and 'take in' the ambience of these holy relics; now Guilliman's back and lounging about them like they mean nothing and it somehow feels vaguely sacrilegious to him. Generally, he's also having a lot of 'Never meet your hero' complex, Guilliman wasn't quite what he was expecting.
Lol, this is awesome and sad at the same time, as it should be. Guilliman is carrying on with business as usual, but the faithful are finding their faith tested as their hero is not quite what they expected.
Typhon keeps taunting Mortarion going 'You ain't the boss of me, I stand higher with Daddy Nurgle because I brought you and the Death Guard over to him', and generally sassing him and Ku'Gath. Frankly, Mortarion went down a lot in my estimation, he seems to have been reduced to the Plague God's whipping boy.
Cawl is decidedly salty about not being appointed Fabricator-General. He keeps asking Guilliman every time they talk apparently. Guilliman has him running around trying to find a way to replicate the Necron pylons, desperate to get rid of the warp rift across the middle of the galaxy as Priority No. 1. He generally seems to have too much power though, Guilliman is exceedingly suspicious of him. There are remarks about how ten thousand years alive has effectively stripped him of his humanity. Ol' Cawl is only one step away from being an AI himself, really.
Guilliman reminisces about his meeting with his dad. The gist of it boils down to the Emperor being virtually nothing of what he used to be. All subtlety is gone. He's just this raging mass of psychic power hooked up to a chair and only half there.
A few quotes:-
Spoiler:
There were but a handful alive now who remembered the Great Heresy War. The teeming multitudes of the Imperium had no inkling of the dream Horus’ betrayal had killed. Few beings lived that would have noted the changes the Avenging Son of Ultramar had undergone. His patrician’s face was lined, more with cares than with years, and sunken in on itself a touch, especially around the cheeks. He was still handsome, if not beautiful, for all the Emperor’s sons had been made to be perfect in thought and form. But though his features had a fineness a sculptor would struggle to capture, his was an eroded handsomeness, worn at the edges like a mountain’s crags. His golden hair had thinned a little, and at the temples were a few strands of grey. Pale brown circles gathered under his eyes when he grew tired, and there was tightness in his jaw, a legacy of the internal pain he had borne since his resurrection.
Before the crusade, the Macragge’s Honour had undergone an extensive refit in shipyards of the Ring of Iron around Mars, and the command deck had been entirely reconfigured from Guilliman’s day. Archmagos Cawl’s stamp was on everything. New machines and unheard of configurations of old devices replaced equipment that had been in use for tens of centuries. The tech-priests had been outraged, but Guilliman had silenced them, and Cawl had had his way.
The result was worth upsetting the Adeptus Mechanicus’ religious sensibilities. The machinery still had the ugly look of 41st millennium technology, but Guilliman reckoned there was a ten per cent increase in tactical responsiveness alone. Multiple redundancies and newly integrated systems allowed for better survivability. Dozens of tech-priests from Cawl’s faction laboured to keep the archmagos’ finely balanced design working, but it did work, and excellently so.
A century on from his rebirth, Guilliman had not yet grasped all the events of the ten millennia since he fell. Belisarius Cawl had provided the primarch with painful but necessary machine-moderated engrammatic updates, but Cawl was a secretive creature, detached from the wider galaxy while he pursued his quest to create the Primaris Space Marines. His records were incomplete, sometimes highly fragmentary, and all of them were short on detail.
Once again, Guilliman had found his own efforts were required to make up for the shortcomings of others.
The discipline of history, like so much else based on reason, had fallen foul of superstition, fanaticism and the High Lords of Terra’s need for iron control. Comparative and corroborative analytical techniques had given way to the recording of gossip, hearsay and folklore. All was liberally mixed with works of complete fabrication. Imperial interference in redacting chronicles, misguidedly or not, had further destroyed much of the past. War had eradicated the histories of entire worlds. Much knowledge had been burned by zealous inquisitors, often in order to suppress a single uncomfortable truth. If anything, the state of man’s knowledge was worse than it was back after the Unification Wars, when the Emperor had unified Terra before the Great Crusade. Much of Terra’s ancient history, painstakingly pieced together by the remembrancers of Guilliman’s own era, had been lost again.
Knowledge of the warp’s true nature had been suppressed, but patchily so. The great deception the Emperor had practised had become impossible to sustain, though that had not stopped the Inquisition from trying. Knowledge of daemons or the Dark Gods was forbidden. Many innocents had paid the ultimate price for accidentally learning the truth.
Even Guilliman, the Imperial Regent himself, faced opposition from the Inquisition in his quest for knowledge. To oppose their puritanical redactionism, he had trained his own corps of historitors. Between campaigns, he sought out inquisitive minds, exactly the sort that had long been frowned upon, rescuing them from penal servitude and impending brain wipe. The first handful he had tutored himself, when time allowed. They in turn taught more, and more still. Each one was assessed by the primarch personally. Those that passed were given the rank of historitor-investigatus. Those that failed to meet his exacting standards were given less taxing roles within the new organisation, as librarians, servants and assistants. From his reading, Guilliman had learnt that the brutal machinery of Imperial government was unkind to failures, yet another thing that saddened him about the present age. The primarch had enough blood upon his conscience, and a much finer grasp of how to get the most out of his subjects. No life was wasted.
Some changes had been made to Imperial salvaging policies within the fleet. Guilliman had ordered the wrecks of the traitor’s ships to be utterly destroyed. It had been the habit of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Navy to recover enemy ships. Chaos vessels were of Imperial make, and were often of older, superior patterns. The primarch stamped hard on the practice. Build new ships, he had said. Leave the past where it is. The corruption of the warp buried itself deeply into whatever it touched.
The Martians had not been happy with that. They had looked upon the older marques of vessel with greedy eyes. Examples had been made.
The tribune’s contempt for baseline humanity troubled Guilliman.
‘You have spent your life guarding the Emperor, yet you forget who the Emperor guards in His turn,’ said Guilliman. ‘Be more forgiving.’
‘As you wish,’ said Colquan. Traditionally, the Adeptus Custodes had taken orders only from their own officers and the Emperor. That was until Guilliman had been declared Imperial Regent: the Emperor’s living voice.
At the thought of his fathers, the memory of the sights he had witnessed in the throne room a century ago intruded violently into his mind. Against the odds, something lingered on the Golden Throne. His last encounter with his true father had been a spear of light and pain whose psychic aftershocks troubled him still. The Emperor had lost His subtlety.
Awesome reads, everyone. Thanks for the summaries!
actually Gulliman ISN'T nesscarily carrying on like before. even he's finding his faith tested. n many ways his entire world view has been under assault. before he viewed the Emperor as "his father, and just a man" he's realizing now his relationship with the Emperor was differant (more a favored tool then a father son) he's also beginning to, even though he resists it on an intellectual level, wonder if perhaps his father is indeed a god. It's really neat to see, especially as in the Horus Heresy series I don't think we've ever seen any of the Primarchs wrestling with this level of well.. DOUBT, regreat and confusion.
A lotta people tend to think the whole Gulliman return thing, and the Primaris Marines, brings too much noblebright into the grimdark, but having read the book I think they really managed to make it work. Now that we've had our first taste, I'm excited for future novels.
I'm eagerly awaiting Cawl to have a secret connection to the Dark Mechanicus, or even the Dragon itself. Would be a nice sudden upset to all the (seemingly) easy gains the side of Good has gained with the new setting.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm eagerly awaiting Cawl to have a secret connection to the Dark Mechanicus, or even the Dragon itself. Would be a nice sudden upset to all the (seemingly) easy gains the side of Good has gained with the new setting.
I doubt very much that'll be the case, but at the same time, yeah Gulliman's definatly made a bit of a deal with the devil here.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm eagerly awaiting Cawl to have a secret connection to the Dark Mechanicus, or even the Dragon itself. Would be a nice sudden upset to all the (seemingly) easy gains the side of Good has gained with the new setting.
I doubt very much that'll be the case, but at the same time, yeah Gulliman's definatly made a bit of a deal with the devil here.
I'm doubtful too, but I would like to see more intrigue among the heroes, and the return of the dragon sect of mars being relevant again. It would, if anything, give a very understandable reason for Cawl being so radical and secretive.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm eagerly awaiting Cawl to have a secret connection to the Dark Mechanicus, or even the Dragon itself. Would be a nice sudden upset to all the (seemingly) easy gains the side of Good has gained with the new setting.
I am not sure the Imperium has gained that much. The Cicatrix Maledictum still bisects the Imperium. Guilliman has hit the over-stretched Chaos forces hard but the Imperium is still in worse shape than it was prior to the start of the 13th Black Crusade. The 8th ed fluff doesn't strike me as overly positive, rather GW have raised the stakes by triggering some of their long-planted "doomsday scenarios".
Just because Cawl thinks it's the case doesn't mean it is. sounds like he mostly wants an excuse to scavage alien tech. I definatly get a sense of forbodding re Cawl. the man is both radical, AND ambitious. he wants Gulliman to install him as Fabricator General, and Gulliman says he wants to meet Cawl "face to face" but apparentl;;y for some reason that may be diffifcult. which leads me to suspect Cawl is doing something naughty.
Actually no. Cawl has struck me as a power hungry mad radical with a gargantuan ego that's almost looking he's about to double cross everyone. Just a pointer: he has an AI he calls Cawl Inferior and masquerades as a program. He just doesn't give feths and wants to get his way on everything.
You guys have no idea how happy I am to read that the general feeling of noblebright in the latest fluff had left a really bad taste in my mouth, but it's massively refreshing to hear that all is not well at all in the New Imperium.
Much better
That feeling just existed in your mind. At best the current situation could only be described as nobledark. gak was fethed beyond belief but maaaaaybe there was a way to paliate it.
yeah, implying the geneseed of the two lost legions wasn't destroyed. VERY intreasting adds some intreasting new snags to the chapters with unidentified primarchs.
I was going to say nah, Gene - Seed is a term they use for the new organs that they Astartes receive to turn them into space marines but there are only 19 of these, lost Legions ahoy!
This leaves me ever more tentatively hoping that they are indeed setting up a new civil war.
I doubt it if the plot remains as is. Guilliman is depicted as very firmly in control, with odd groups (planetary governors, etc) giving him a bit of trouble, but nothing along the lines of a civil war. He's shoved the Mechanicus into line, along with the Inquisition and the Custodes. He's supplanted the Lords of Terra. Cawl himself says that he has the power to appoint the new Fabricator General.
The truth is, Guilliman is effectively Emperor. He acts with the actual Emperor's full authority, and nobody else talks to the Emperor. That makes him Emperor by proxy. He has no counterpart, no rival authority. He is unchallenged.
If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.
This leaves me ever more tentatively hoping that they are indeed setting up a new civil war.
I doubt it if the plot remains as is. Guilliman is depicted as very firmly in control, with odd groups (planetary governors, etc) giving him a bit of trouble, but nothing along the lines of a civil war. He's shoved the Mechanicus into line, along with the Inquisition and the Custodes. He's supplanted the Lords of Terra. Cawl himself says that he has the power to appoint the new Fabricator General.
The truth is, Guilliman is effectively Emperor. He acts with the actual Emperor's full authority, and nobody else talks to the Emperor. That makes him Emperor by proxy. He has no counterpart, no rival authority. He is unchallenged.
If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.
How does anyone shove the Mechanicus aside? Any details on that?
This leaves me ever more tentatively hoping that they are indeed setting up a new civil war.
I doubt it if the plot remains as is. Guilliman is depicted as very firmly in control, with odd groups (planetary governors, etc) giving him a bit of trouble, but nothing along the lines of a civil war. He's shoved the Mechanicus into line, along with the Inquisition and the Custodes. He's supplanted the Lords of Terra. Cawl himself says that he has the power to appoint the new Fabricator General.
The truth is, Guilliman is effectively Emperor. He acts with the actual Emperor's full authority, and nobody else talks to the Emperor. That makes him Emperor by proxy. He has no counterpart, no rival authority. He is unchallenged.
If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.
How does anyone shove the Mechanicus aside? Any details on that?
I gave one of the implications in that direction in my earlier quotes.
Some changes had been made to Imperial salvaging policies within the fleet. Guilliman had ordered the wrecks of the traitor’s ships to be utterly destroyed. It had been the habit of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Navy to recover enemy ships. Chaos vessels were of Imperial make, and were often of older, superior patterns. The primarch stamped hard on the practice. Build new ships, he had said. Leave the past where it is. The corruption of the warp buried itself deeply into whatever it touched.
The Martians had not been happy with that. They had looked upon the older marques of vessel with greedy eyes. Examples had been made.
There are several sentences along these lines within the book. Combined with Cawl's belief that Guilliman has the power to appoint the Fabricator-General, it's reasonably clear that the Priesthood of Mars is firmly under his thumb for the most part. I've no doubt that there will still be factions of both the Adeptus Mechanicus and Inquisition beavering away behind the scenes to circumvent him, but as long as he has the main command chains firmly within his grip, it's not much of a concern. He also has the Ministorum eating out of his hand, he's taken over as the ultimate military commander, and even gives orders to the Custodes to take to the stars and do battle.
Somehow, in the space of a hundred years, Guilliman appears to have welded the Imperium into a machine under the direction of one primary ruler:- him. When Cawl is nagging him to appoint him Fabricator-General, Guilliman keeps insisting that the Martians need to do it themselves, that there have to be checks and balances, that he doesn't want be Horus. But at the same time, when he announces the appointment of another ten chapters of Primaris Marines and people start accusing him of building his own legion again, he overrides them without a second thought.
Guilliman is Emperor by proxy. He appoints the highest positions or not at his own whim. New Chapters are created by his sole discretion. He gives the order, and suddenly fifty planetary governors who have ruled their respective worlds for 3,000 years by past decree from the Lords of Terra find they're now subordinate to some random Ultramarine. He's literally turned around and said that the Codex Astartes is no longer fit for purpose and he's mid-way through a new edition (Codex Imperialis, I think it was), and every space marine will have to follow that instead when he's done. He orders the Martians about, overrides the Inquisition by pulling people out of their cells, throws out Lords of Terra who he thinks aren't up to the job.
Ave Imperator, Roboute Guilliman. Imperium Secundus has already risen.
This leaves me ever more tentatively hoping that they are indeed setting up a new civil war.
I doubt it if the plot remains as is. Guilliman is depicted as very firmly in control, with odd groups (planetary governors, etc) giving him a bit of trouble, but nothing along the lines of a civil war. He's shoved the Mechanicus into line, along with the Inquisition and the Custodes. He's supplanted the Lords of Terra. Cawl himself says that he has the power to appoint the new Fabricator General.
The truth is, Guilliman is effectively Emperor. He acts with the actual Emperor's full authority, and nobody else talks to the Emperor. That makes him Emperor by proxy. He has no counterpart, no rival authority. He is unchallenged.
If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.
Ketara wrote: Guilliman is Emperor by proxy. He appoints the highest positions or not at his own whim. New Chapters are created by his sole discretion. He gives the order, and suddenly fifty planetary governors who have ruled their respective worlds for 3,000 years by past decree from the Lords of Terra find they're now subordinate to some random Ultramarine. He's literally turned around and said that the Codex Astartes is no longer fit for purpose and he's mid-way through a new edition (Codex Imperialis, I think it was), and every space marine will have to follow that instead when he's done. He orders the Martians about, overrides the Inquisition by pulling people out of their cells, throws out Lords of Terra who he thinks aren't up to the job.
See, this is exactly what I hoping for with Guilliman coming in an taking charge - things happen, and the draconian bureaucracy of the Imperium is getting shook up, with Inquisitors getting overruled on what they want to do.
I like the grim-dark as much as anyone, but it's refreshing to see something good and different come out of the Imperium. I am keenly interested on what will come next.
Ketara wrote: Guilliman is Emperor by proxy. He appoints the highest positions or not at his own whim. New Chapters are created by his sole discretion. He gives the order, and suddenly fifty planetary governors who have ruled their respective worlds for 3,000 years by past decree from the Lords of Terra find they're now subordinate to some random Ultramarine. He's literally turned around and said that the Codex Astartes is no longer fit for purpose and he's mid-way through a new edition (Codex Imperialis, I think it was), and every space marine will have to follow that instead when he's done. He orders the Martians about, overrides the Inquisition by pulling people out of their cells, throws out Lords of Terra who he thinks aren't up to the job.
See, this is exactly what I hoping for with Guilliman coming in an taking charge - things happen, and the draconian bureaucracy of the Imperium is getting shook up, with Inquisitors getting overruled on what they want to do.
I like the grim-dark as much as anyone, but it's refreshing to see something good and different come out of the Imperium. I am keenly interested on what will come next.
It all hinges on Cawl though. Cawl is the one who has provided Guilliman with most of his new toys. I have no doubt he backs Guilliman right now because he sees Guilliman as his best bet for sneaking up the Imperial Hierarchy. The Martians would never listen to him without Guilliman's backing, he's an outcast. So he pressures Guilliman to give him a recognised position, to set him up a power base within the Imperium. The question is, what will he do when he gets it? Or indeed, if he doesn't get it?
If Cawl gets in, Imperial science may well suddenly do a U-turn, and begin making advances again. But Cawl's personal motivations are really key as to whether that will be a good or bad thing.
I think the Khan would be pretty cool with Guilliman running logistics whilst he hangs out on battlefields. He's not the type to play at house, or begrudge someone skilled at it doing it. Vulkan would probably be reasonably okay with it as well, much more like Sanguinius. Dorn, Russ, or the Lion however, would likely cause waves of varying levels.
Ketara wrote: If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.
That is exactly what I'm hoping for.
Unremembered Empire has a pretty good setup for this exact situation.
Urghh hate the Lion (well at least as depicted in the HH novels - such a complete and utter dick) - the only Primarch I hoped would not come back. other than that - really intrigued by all the stuff everyone has said about it so far.
I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs
I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs
I doubt it will be as basic as a pissing contest between two Primarchs but more of a confrontation between the old order and the new order, each headed by a Primarch. It would be interesting to see how that went and where each group's loyalty would lie.
EDIT: About the Lion being a dick. I like it, and not just because I play Dark Angels. Dick characters make things interesting imo.
This leaves me ever more tentatively hoping that they are indeed setting up a new civil war.
It wasn't a civil war but Arch Warhammer in a recent video had an idea I liked were the giant split in space caused the technology on the two sides in the imperium to go different directions with the side with Terra advancing thanks to papa smurf and cawl and the other staying relatively as is creating a cultural divide that added with say a primarch taking over in the dark imperium could set up a conflict between the two.
I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs
I doubt it will be as basic as a pissing contest between two Primarchs but more of a confrontation between the old order and the new order, each headed by a Primarch. It would be interesting to see how that went and where each group's loyalty would lie.
.
I don't think the question is along the lines of what the Lion thinks about it all if he does make a comeback. There's 10,000 years of slow decline to show that the established methods aren't working. There's no issue now of Guilliman betraying their father to set himself up, heck, their father's a schizophrenic stationary semi-sentient mass of roiling psychic energy. It's pretty apparent that he's not making a comeback any time soon. What would actually lead the Lion to conflict with his brother?
The only real issues I can forsee really would ultimately derive from a pissing match. The Lion says Cawl should be Fabricator-General, Guilliman says he shouldn't. Guilliman wants to break up the Ordo Malleus, the Lion says he shouldn't. Etc, etc. If both have equal authority, then they will have to come terms in some way or risk splitting the Imperium purely from divided chains of command. There's no Sanguinius to mediate and give an ultimate decision this time around. They need a third Primarch to keep the peace and give a deciding vote.
Doubtless that's where we'd see Russ or Khan make a comeback.
Rumour has it that Russ will be the next Loyalist Primarch to return. If so, it will be interesting to see what he makes of it all. The HH fluff has been sketchy on him and there seems to have been little interaction between him and other Primarchs. I doubt he will be any happier about the state of the Imperium than Roboute but I don't see him challenging him for control (the Lion might though). More likely Russ will want to be on the front lines hitting stuff which would free up Roboute for civil admin.
I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs
I doubt it will be as basic as a pissing contest between two Primarchs but more of a confrontation between the old order and the new order, each headed by a Primarch. It would be interesting to see how that went and where each group's loyalty would lie.
.
I don't think the question is along the lines of what the Lion thinks about it all if he does make a comeback. There's 10,000 years of slow decline to show that the established methods aren't working. There's no issue now of Guilliman betraying their father to set himself up, heck, their father's a schizophrenic stationary semi-sentient mass of roiling psychic energy. It's pretty apparent that he's not making a comeback any time soon. What would actually lead the Lion to conflict with his brother?
The only real issues I can forsee really would ultimately derive from a pissing match. The Lion says Cawl should be Fabricator-General, Guilliman says he shouldn't. Guilliman wants to break up the Ordo Malleus, the Lion says he shouldn't. Etc, etc. If both have equal authority, then they will have to come terms in some way or risk splitting the Imperium purely from divided chains of command. There's no Sanguinius to mediate and give an ultimate decision this time around. They need a third Primarch to keep the peace and give a deciding vote.
Doubtless that's where we'd see Russ or Khan make a comeback.
Well they could play The Lion as being far too loyal to the point of delusion: not willing to admit that big E's just a clusterfeth of psychic energy and that he can't be saved. I don't see that as being too farfetched.
However it is more likely that they will go the way you two are saying as that will no doubt allow them to easily insert Russ and the Khan so they can capitalize on creating the models. This of course will be followed by a Free For all TLC match with Russ and Jagatai before finally going for the the big Royal Rumble match vs the (by now also out) 4 god-aligned primarchs. xD
Remember, the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't technically subservient to the Imperium like the Ecclessiarchy or similar. Historically and diplomatically it's closer to a sister-empire that exists in symbiosis with the rest of the Imperium.
Cawl appealing to Guilliman to 'instate' him as the Fabricator-General of Mars speaks to Cawl's ambitiousness and outcast/radical nature. That's the equivalent of asking Germany to 'instate' someone to the leadership of France, through their ties with the EU. I'm sure Guilliman has the political clout to pull it off, but it would cause massive ructions in the Ad Mech as it's basically their sister-empire and allies meddling in their direct hierarchy.
As for another Primarch coming back as a foil to Guilliman, the reason I would want it to be the Lion is precisely because he's a bit of a dick and would clash with Guilliman. It was the Lion who caught Guilliman empire-building the first time, and he would be furious to see him doing it again. Cue some really neat intra-imperial tensions.
Alas, Khan would be tedious because they'd actually work happily as a team. Guilliman doing the administration, Khan doing the chopping. Any narrative tension would feel forced and manufactured. The point of another Primarch coming back isn't so the Imperium benefits from it, but to cause tension.
I would, however, agree that the best way to do narrative tension is via the various factions of the Imperium adjusting to the changes. Tons of opportunity there, and it'd feel a lot less 'HeroHammer' if it's them doing the conflict rather than post-human hero dudes.
Edit: How about this for a list of things the Lion has to be suspicious of Guilliman
1. He caught him Empire-building before when he should have been racing to defend Terra. Every chance he would see this as another power-grab.
2. Guilliman's been brought back through the help of xenos warp-magic. It's a little pot-kettle-black, but if his agents discover that he's not going to be happy. At least someone in the Imperium should be questioning that.
3. Guilliman's been working with Cypher...
Well they could play The Lion as being far too loyal to the point of delusion: not willing to admit that big E's just a clusterfeth of psychic energy and that he can't be saved. I don't see that as being too farfetched.
However it is more likely that they will go the way you two are saying as that will no doubt allow them to easily insert Russ and the Khan so they can capitalize on creating the models. This of course will be followed by a Free For all TLC match with Russ and Jagatai before finally going for the the big Royal Rumble match vs the (by now also out) 4 god-aligned primarchs. xD
Well, we're seeing Morty make a comeback on the Chaos side shortly, no doubt. Since we've had Magnus, he'll likely be followed by either Angron or Fulgrim, and they'll want a third Loyalist Primarch to keep the balance. My bet is on Russ, to be honest. The cynic in me says that Corax and Khan aren't popular enough, and Dorn/Vulkan don't have an entire model range for their chapters to push sales for.
Well they could play The Lion as being far too loyal to the point of delusion: not willing to admit that big E's just a clusterfeth of psychic energy and that he can't be saved. I don't see that as being too farfetched.
However it is more likely that they will go the way you two are saying as that will no doubt allow them to easily insert Russ and the Khan so they can capitalize on creating the models. This of course will be followed by a Free For all TLC match with Russ and Jagatai before finally going for the the big Royal Rumble match vs the (by now also out) 4 god-aligned primarchs. xD
Well, we're seeing Morty make a comeback on the Chaos side shortly, no doubt. Since we've had Magnus, he'll likely be followed by either Angron or Fulgrim, and they'll want a third Loyalist Primarch to keep the balance. My bet is on Russ, to be honest. The cynic in me says that Corax and Khan aren't popular enough, and Dorn/Vulkan don't have an entire model range for their chapters to push sales for.
That would be the logical option. I'm thinking (this is pure speculation, of course) the primarch launch line could be something alike Magnus and Roboute first, followed by Mortarion and the Lion (which may coincide with the release of his 30k model, which would KILL my wallet, btw). Then it's likely to be Angron and Russ (I can already see a rematch of the Night of the Wolf) and finally Fulgrim and Vulkan.
Now... why do I say Vulkan? He's been getting a decent chunk of attention in 40k as of late, especially combined with Guilliman and the Lion, while the others... not really.
That will then free up the Khan and Corax to pop up whenever they decide to add Lorgar and Perturabo.
Remember, the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't technically subservient to the Imperium like the Ecclessiarchy or similar. Historically and diplomatically it's closer to a sister-empire that exists in symbiosis with the rest of the Imperium.
Cawl appealing to Guilliman to 'instate' him as the Fabricator-General of Mars speaks to Cawl's ambitiousness and outcast/radical nature. That's the equivalent of asking Germany to 'instate' someone to the leadership of France, through their ties with the EU. I'm sure Guilliman has the political clout to pull it off, but it would cause massive ructions in the Ad Mech as it's basically their sister-empire and allies meddling in their direct hierarchy.
As for another Primarch coming back as a foil to Guilliman, the reason I would want it to be the Lion is precisely because he's a bit of a dick and would clash with Guilliman. It was the Lion who caught Guilliman empire-building the first time, and he would be furious to see him doing it again. Cue some really neat intra-imperial tensions.
Alas, Khan would be tedious because they'd actually work happily as a team. Guilliman doing the administration, Khan doing the chopping. Any narrative tension would feel forced and manufactured. The point of another Primarch coming back isn't so the Imperium benefits from it, but to cause tension.
I would, however, agree that the best way to do narrative tension is via the various factions of the Imperium adjusting to the changes. Tons of opportunity there, and it'd feel a lot less 'HeroHammer' if it's them doing the conflict rather than post-human hero dudes.
Edit: How about this for a list of things the Lion has to be suspicious of Guilliman
1. He caught him Empire-building before when he should have been racing to defend Terra. Every chance he would see this as another power-grab.
2. Guilliman's been brought back through the help of xenos warp-magic. It's a little pot-kettle-black, but if his agents discover that he's not going to be happy. At least someone in the Imperium should be questioning that.
3. Guilliman's been working with Cypher...
yeah Gulliman can't meddle too much with the admech, he proably could replace the Fabricator General but it'd not exactly be an easy task and he'd burn a lot of "political capital" doing it, (too much) Cawl thinks he can/should do it because Cawl proably doesn't care if it absolutely Feths Gulliman up. he gets what he wants.
as for the Lion returning, we dunno the exact timeline of the Lion's dissapperance yet. if Gulliman was declared the head of the council oif Terra BEFORE he left to Caliban (which does seem to be the case)((( chances are the Lion's not likely to take too many issues. with it, because in that regard he'd return to the status quo.
Guilliam needs allies in politics and so far the Admech is the only one that might be it. Guilliam needs an army and state to control because he is dealing with other people that have their own armies and states.
BrianDavion wrote: actually Gulliman ISN'T nesscarily carrying on like before. even he's finding his faith tested. n many ways his entire world view has been under assault. before he viewed the Emperor as "his father, and just a man" he's realizing now his relationship with the Emperor was differant (more a favored tool then a father son) he's also beginning to, even though he resists it on an intellectual level, wonder if perhaps his father is indeed a god. It's really neat to see, especially as in the Horus Heresy series I don't think we've ever seen any of the Primarchs wrestling with this level of well.. DOUBT, regreat and confusion.
A lotta people tend to think the whole Gulliman return thing, and the Primaris Marines, brings too much noblebright into the grimdark, but having read the book I think they really managed to make it work. Now that we've had our first taste, I'm excited for future novels.
They need to stop pushing this "The emperor never cared" line. It turns the emperor from a great man with tragic, but very human flaws, into simply a stupid psycho. The Horus Heresy doesn't make nearly as much sense if the emperor simply saw the primarchs as tools to use and discard at will. Ie he made mistakes out of emotion verse him just being dumb. That's the problem with an emotionless schemer. Any time they're wrong, it's because they were stupid.
I'd rather the problems came from trying to rebuild the Imperium, the various factions (Church, State, Ad Mech, Inquisition in particular) and the Chaos/Xenos threat than a pissing contest between the two Primarchs
I doubt it will be as basic as a pissing contest between two Primarchs but more of a confrontation between the old order and the new order, each headed by a Primarch. It would be interesting to see how that went and where each group's loyalty would lie.
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I don't think the question is along the lines of what the Lion thinks about it all if he does make a comeback. There's 10,000 years of slow decline to show that the established methods aren't working. There's no issue now of Guilliman betraying their father to set himself up, heck, their father's a schizophrenic stationary semi-sentient mass of roiling psychic energy. It's pretty apparent that he's not making a comeback any time soon. What would actually lead the Lion to conflict with his brother?
The only real issues I can forsee really would ultimately derive from a pissing match. The Lion says Cawl should be Fabricator-General, Guilliman says he shouldn't. Guilliman wants to break up the Ordo Malleus, the Lion says he shouldn't. Etc, etc. If both have equal authority, then they will have to come terms in some way or risk splitting the Imperium purely from divided chains of command. There's no Sanguinius to mediate and give an ultimate decision this time around. They need a third Primarch to keep the peace and give a deciding vote.
Doubtless that's where we'd see Russ or Khan make a comeback.
Well they could play The Lion as being far too loyal to the point of delusion: not willing to admit that big E's just a clusterfeth of psychic energy and that he can't be saved. I don't see that as being too farfetched.
However it is more likely that they will go the way you two are saying as that will no doubt allow them to easily insert Russ and the Khan so they can capitalize on creating the models. This of course will be followed by a Free For all TLC match with Russ and Jagatai before finally going for the the big Royal Rumble match vs the (by now also out) 4 god-aligned primarchs. xD
The HH books made me wonder if the Lion was imperial because he was loyal to the emperor, or because he felt slighted by Horus becoming warmaster, and fought Horus to prove himself the superior primarch. In any case his return would probably make Robby G's job harder. Also could they be setting Mortarion up for redemption? It's hard to think of which of the traitor primarch could be redeemed, but Mortarion has a hard luck story as opposed to many of the others flamboyant descent into chaos (Fulgrim and Lorgar I'm looking at you). It would have to be him or magnus.
As for which loyalist goes traitor, there seems only one good option, Lion El'Johnson, but they have surprised us before.
none of the traitor primarchs are redeemable, after you become a Deamon prince, you're not really possiable to redeemas hyou're basicly made up of a chaos god
BrianDavion wrote: none of the traitor primarchs are redeemable, after you become a Deamon prince, you're not really possiable to redeemas hyou're basicly made up of a chaos god
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm eagerly awaiting Cawl to have a secret connection to the Dark Mechanicus, or even the Dragon itself. Would be a nice sudden upset to all the (seemingly) easy gains the side of Good has gained with the new setting.
I doubt very much that'll be the case, but at the same time, yeah Gulliman's definatly made a bit of a deal with the devil here.
I'm doubtful too, but I would like to see more intrigue among the heroes, and the return of the dragon sect of mars being relevant again. It would, if anything, give a very understandable reason for Cawl being so radical and secretive.
Why would you want the thing that if taken literally robs the Mechanicus of their agency and thus their narrative of any meaning to be dredged up again to also rob Cawl of any agency? The point of the Mechanicus was supposed to be to illustrate how human nature and human failings can corrupt any kind of progress, technological as well as social and spiritual. Dumping a C'tan into the mix wasn't about the Mechanicus, it was about making Da Emprah look overwrought-guitar-solo-awesome for beating up a big nasty baddie as part of the overcompensating CREEEEEEED manipulations introduced during the HH novel series.
The Mechanicus have a better story when their present state is the result of choices made freely by flawed humans, and the same would be true for Cawl.
This leaves me ever more tentatively hoping that they are indeed setting up a new civil war.
I doubt it if the plot remains as is. Guilliman is depicted as very firmly in control, with odd groups (planetary governors, etc) giving him a bit of trouble, but nothing along the lines of a civil war. He's shoved the Mechanicus into line, along with the Inquisition and the Custodes. He's supplanted the Lords of Terra. Cawl himself says that he has the power to appoint the new Fabricator General.
The truth is, Guilliman is effectively Emperor. He acts with the actual Emperor's full authority, and nobody else talks to the Emperor. That makes him Emperor by proxy. He has no counterpart, no rival authority. He is unchallenged.
If the Lion shows up though? Then things may get....interesting. But not until then.
How does anyone shove the Mechanicus aside? Any details on that?
I gave one of the implications in that direction in my earlier quotes.
Some changes had been made to Imperial salvaging policies within the fleet. Guilliman had ordered the wrecks of the traitor’s ships to be utterly destroyed. It had been the habit of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Navy to recover enemy ships. Chaos vessels were of Imperial make, and were often of older, superior patterns. The primarch stamped hard on the practice. Build new ships, he had said. Leave the past where it is. The corruption of the warp buried itself deeply into whatever it touched.
The Martians had not been happy with that. They had looked upon the older marques of vessel with greedy eyes. Examples had been made.
There are several sentences along these lines within the book. Combined with Cawl's belief that Guilliman has the power to appoint the Fabricator-General, it's reasonably clear that the Priesthood of Mars is firmly under his thumb for the most part. I've no doubt that there will still be factions of both the Adeptus Mechanicus and Inquisition beavering away behind the scenes to circumvent him, but as long as he has the main command chains firmly within his grip, it's not much of a concern. He also has the Ministorum eating out of his hand, he's taken over as the ultimate military commander, and even gives orders to the Custodes to take to the stars and do battle.
Somehow, in the space of a hundred years, Guilliman appears to have welded the Imperium into a machine under the direction of one primary ruler:- him. When Cawl is nagging him to appoint him Fabricator-General, Guilliman keeps insisting that the Martians need to do it themselves, that there have to be checks and balances, that he doesn't want be Horus. But at the same time, when he announces the appointment of another ten chapters of Primaris Marines and people start accusing him of building his own legion again, he overrides them without a second thought.
Guilliman is Emperor by proxy. He appoints the highest positions or not at his own whim. New Chapters are created by his sole discretion. He gives the order, and suddenly fifty planetary governors who have ruled their respective worlds for 3,000 years by past decree from the Lords of Terra find they're now subordinate to some random Ultramarine. He's literally turned around and said that the Codex Astartes is no longer fit for purpose and he's mid-way through a new edition (Codex Imperialis, I think it was), and every space marine will have to follow that instead when he's done. He orders the Martians about, overrides the Inquisition by pulling people out of their cells, throws out Lords of Terra who he thinks aren't up to the job.
Ave Imperator, Roboute Guilliman. Imperium Secundus has already risen.
And this is why I can't take some folks' protestations about how things are still totes grimdark honest guv very seriously. All of the supposed setbacks of Dark Imperium have only in reality served to allow Guilliman to strengthen the Imperium and put it on an equal footing with their myriad enemies for the first time in millennia. Innovation in the Mechanicus, a whole new arm of government dedicated to reasoned and factual examination and propagation of history, fractious internecine politics suppressed, unified military control under a strategic genius, the Custodes abroad in the galaxy again, superior Marines with superior new equipment in vast numbers etc etc - it's hardly Star Trek, but this new incarnation of the Imperium isn't even remotely as precarious as they were prior to Gathering Storm, to the point that evidently the only thing most folk here can plausibly see threatening this new state of affairs is Horus Heresy Part Deux: Meaningless Retread Boogaloo - Primarchs Gone Wild.
BrianDavion wrote: actually Gulliman ISN'T nesscarily carrying on like before. even he's finding his faith tested. n many ways his entire world view has been under assault. before he viewed the Emperor as "his father, and just a man" he's realizing now his relationship with the Emperor was differant (more a favored tool then a father son) he's also beginning to, even though he resists it on an intellectual level, wonder if perhaps his father is indeed a god. It's really neat to see, especially as in the Horus Heresy series I don't think we've ever seen any of the Primarchs wrestling with this level of well.. DOUBT, regreat and confusion.
A lotta people tend to think the whole Gulliman return thing, and the Primaris Marines, brings too much noblebright into the grimdark, but having read the book I think they really managed to make it work. Now that we've had our first taste, I'm excited for future novels.
They need to stop pushing this "The emperor never cared" line. It turns the emperor from a great man with tragic, but very human flaws, into simply a stupid psycho. The Horus Heresy doesn't make nearly as much sense if the emperor simply saw the primarchs as tools to use and discard at will. Ie he made mistakes out of emotion verse him just being dumb. That's the problem with an emotionless schemer. Any time they're wrong, it's because they were stupid.
Grimgold wrote: As for which loyalist goes traitor, there seems only one good option, Lion El'Johnson, but they have surprised us before.
Boy will I be beyond pissed if this happens.
Edit: the HH books clearly point the Lion has being loyal to Big Daddy E. Not the Imperium, or anything else. His father.
If the Emperor decided to go tabula rasa on the Imperium, The Lion wouldn't think twice before following him and burning everything to ashes. Loyalty is both his greatest virtue and his deepest flaw.
They need to stop pushing this "The emperor never cared" line. It turns the emperor from a great man with tragic, but very human flaws, into simply a stupid psycho. The Horus Heresy doesn't make nearly as much sense if the emperor simply saw the primarchs as tools to use and discard at will. Ie he made mistakes out of emotion verse him just being dumb. That's the problem with an emotionless schemer. Any time they're wrong, it's because they were stupid.
Another point, its been 100 years but chaos still didn't reach Terra?
1) If so Failbaddon appears to have failed...again.
2) How is chaos keeping it together for 100 years? Their big weakness was a lack of logistics and predisposition to shoot each other as much as shoot as anyone else?
3) How have the chaos gods not gone fickle again?
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm eagerly awaiting Cawl to have a secret connection to the Dark Mechanicus, or even the Dragon itself. Would be a nice sudden upset to all the (seemingly) easy gains the side of Good has gained with the new setting.
I doubt very much that'll be the case, but at the same time, yeah Gulliman's definatly made a bit of a deal with the devil here.
I'm doubtful too, but I would like to see more intrigue among the heroes, and the return of the dragon sect of mars being relevant again. It would, if anything, give a very understandable reason for Cawl being so radical and secretive.
Why would you want the thing that if taken literally robs the Mechanicus of their agency and thus their narrative of any meaning to be dredged up again to also rob Cawl of any agency? The point of the Mechanicus was supposed to be to illustrate how human nature and human failings can corrupt any kind of progress, technological as well as social and spiritual. Dumping a C'tan into the mix wasn't about the Mechanicus, it was about making Da Emprah look overwrought-guitar-solo-awesome for beating up a big nasty baddie as part of the overcompensating CREEEEEEED manipulations introduced during the HH novel series.
The Mechanicus have a better story when their present state is the result of choices made freely by flawed humans, and the same would be true for Cawl.
It only robs the Mechanicus of their agency if you assume that A: the majority of the Mechanicus are aware of the dragon's existence and exploit it and B: That the innovations of the Mechanicus and the machinations of the dragon cult were solely the doings of the dragon. It doesn't have to be this way at all. C'tan, in general, are akin to evil genies, making faustian bargains. If you assume that the dragon cult was just a very small, secret, heretical sect of the Machanicus, who deal with an imprisoned dragon shard, the same way Clarice Starling deals with an imprisoned Hannibal Lector in order to make strides in scientific and technological understanding that wouldn't have been so easily possible otherwise than the human frailty factor would still be intact. The dragon cult knowingly makes a dangerous deal with Lucifer in exchange for heretical knowledge. They would be very guilty of both reckless ambition and hubris, you know, human flaws.
Adding different political entities and groups within the Mechanicus full of intrigue, secrets, and motives gives them depth. Cawl secretly being a heretic with perhaps, less than noble goals makes him interesting to me for a number of reasons. For one, it means that the ultra-shiny Guilleman and his merry band of indomitus super friends might be a little more complicated and less noble bright than they initially appear and means that Cawl, to further his own goals, is knowingly playing a dangerous game, especially if he is genuinely convinced that he is doing what is best for humanity (ends justifying the means kind of thing). If discovered, his fate could be very grim indeed. So far, Guilleman's return feels a lot like Mighty Mouse coming to save the day, I like my 40k to be grim-dark, having a schism and in-fighting between the heroes because of their human flaws, including individuality, culminating perhaps in the Imperium itself dividing does this. 40k works for me the more vulnerable human kind is, this direction would only add to that.
the same way Clarice Starling deals with an imprisoned Hannibal Lector
You've just sold it to me with that one image. Nice work
Agreed that if they were to do a Dragon Cult, it would have to be a small number of radical Magi, rather than the whole lot of them. Much easier to set up narrative tensions that way.
Doubly good if they imply Cawl has some connections to them. No outright statement of 'Cawl is best buds with the Dragon', but a subtle insinuation that no doubt someone 5 years down the line will read and decide needs to be enshrined in as close to 40k has to canon like all the other neat subtle insinuations we used to have, but for those 5 years it will be neat
And this is why I can't take some folks' protestations about how things are still totes grimdark honest guv very seriously. All of the supposed setbacks of Dark Imperium have only in reality served to allow Guilliman to strengthen the Imperium and put it on an equal footing with their myriad enemies for the first time in millennia. Innovation in the Mechanicus, a whole new arm of government dedicated to reasoned and factual examination and propagation of history, fractious internecine politics suppressed, unified military control under a strategic genius, the Custodes abroad in the galaxy again, superior Marines with superior new equipment in vast numbers etc etc - it's hardly Star Trek, but this new incarnation of the Imperium isn't even remotely as precarious as they were prior to Gathering Storm, to the point that evidently the only thing most folk here can plausibly see threatening this new state of affairs is Horus Heresy Part Deux: Meaningless Retread Boogaloo - Primarchs Gone Wild.
I agree and disagree at the same time.
I agree in that if we take it as a static snapshot of the situation in 40K, you're totally correct. Things look reasonably noblebright.
I disagree in that I highly suspect it won't remain that way. Why? Allow me to elucidate.
There is an entire section in the book dedicated to how the perception of time is screwed up, how there's been multiple calendars and most don't agree. I think it's something of a Chekhov's Gun, they're going to use it to justify rewinding the clock by two hundred years or so. Warhammer 40K is a powerful named brand. They want to move the story forward, but they aren't going to want to rebrand to 41K. We're already noting a full overhaul of the game system, and they've dissolved the codices into five separate books.
Accordingly, the impression I am getting is we're in for another two hundred years of storyline development which is going to affect every faction. The Primarchs reborn are going to be a large part of that, but we're doubtless going to see some Xenos action. They've planted the seeds of where problems are going to come in with Cawl, and I've no doubt we'll see something blossom from that, along with various other Imperial problems.
In other words, we're seeing the start of a lot of new story stuff, and I think there'll be plenty of fresh grimdark dripping in over the next few years. They've strengthened the Imperium again, so that they have something to tear down again.
In other words, we're seeing the start of a lot of new story stuff, and I think there'll be plenty of fresh grimdark dripping in over the next few years. They've strengthened the Imperium again, so that they have something to tear down again.
Just as it should be. Primorkus (or is it Prigorkus) Orks 2017
people whom think the IoM is strengthened and suoper noble bright need to read the novel. and understand the implications.
ok first of all, the great rift means that the IoM has effectivly lost half it's worlds. (per a video with the story writers today, they stated the astronomican doesn't work in Imperium Nihlus, and that chaos is "definatly winning I;d say")
secondly we're seeing mass assaults on the IoM, Ultramar, which was one of the more peaceful and prosperous parts of the IoM has been under seige for a good century now.
the IoM MAY be stronger, but the threat level just ramped up to 11.
Frazzled wrote: Another point, its been 100 years but chaos still didn't reach Terra?
1) If so Failbaddon appears to have failed...again.
2) How is chaos keeping it together for 100 years? Their big weakness was a lack of logistics and predisposition to shoot each other as much as shoot as anyone else?
3) How have the chaos gods not gone fickle again?
The answer to this, is that Chaos doesn't just have 2 major holes in reality to attack from... they have a big ass tear across the galaxy to attack from. They are all not sticking together either. Nurgle has turned his attention to Ultrama, Khorne is Beating down Armageddon to the point where you are having Imperial Guard and Orks fighting side by side against the Daemon Hordes (Khornes duders are also out beating up some nids on Baal) where the other two are focusing during this time we will see. but it isn't a unified Chaos force
Frazzled wrote: Another point, its been 100 years but chaos still didn't reach Terra?
1) If so Failbaddon appears to have failed...again.
2) How is chaos keeping it together for 100 years? Their big weakness was a lack of logistics and predisposition to shoot each other as much as shoot as anyone else?
3) How have the chaos gods not gone fickle again?
The answer to this, is that Chaos doesn't just have 2 major holes in reality to attack from... they have a big ass tear across the galaxy to attack from. They are all not sticking together either. Nurgle has turned his attention to Ultrama, Khorne is Beating down Armageddon to the point where you are having Imperial Guard and Orks fighting side by side against the Daemon Hordes (Khornes duders are also out beating up some nids on Baal) where the other two are focusing during this time we will see. but it isn't a unified Chaos force
To add to this.... Chaos did reach Terra, but it was destroyed by Robute Gulliman and the custodes.
Abbaddon's plan according to the black legion supplement is also to basicly let the great rift spread until deamons can start popping up on Terra. the meta conflict I imagine right now is will Gulliman find a way to close the rift or will Abbaddon be able to expand the rift first? (an answer I expect we'll never see realized eaither way)
There wouldn't be a setting if the Imperium was just always abjectly splayed out ready to be destroyed. I hate to break it to folks, but the IoM has to start winning or the setting is dead. Or worse the Tau conquer everything.
stratigo wrote: There wouldn't be a setting if the Imperium was just always abjectly splayed out ready to be destroyed. I hate to break it to folks, but the IoM has to start winning or the setting is dead. Or worse the Tau conquer everything.
I believe you are confusing Setting with Story - they are two completely different things.
But that is, also, a completely different can of worms.
BrianDavion wrote: people whom think the IoM is strengthened and suoper noble bright need to read the novel. and understand the implications.
ok first of all, the great rift means that the IoM has effectivly lost half it's worlds. (per a video with the story writers today, they stated the astronomican doesn't work in Imperium Nihlus, and that chaos is "definatly winning I;d say")
secondly we're seeing mass assaults on the IoM, Ultramar, which was one of the more peaceful and prosperous parts of the IoM has been under seige for a good century now.
the IoM MAY be stronger, but the threat level just ramped up to 11.
But it's not lost half its important worlds. Of the major named planets, I think only Baal, Valhalla, and Mordian were on the wrong side.
And losing the Astronomican didn't do anything - Guilliman was still able to risk his Indomitus Crusade, with all its Primaris Marines, and braved it safely. I mean, at this rate of xenos-fraternisation they might as well unplug the Vegetable-God and use the Webway.
And what's the point in taking Ultramar? It's Terra we want. Unleashing the Word Bearers and World Eaters on the 500 Worlds was to remove the Ultramarines from the equation, not to take Ultramar. While the Loyalists see Guilliman as their spiritual liege, lord commander, and saviour (in no particular order), he's "just" a primarch as far as Chaos is concerned.
Frazzled wrote:Another point, its been 100 years but chaos still didn't reach Terra?
1) If so Failbaddon appears to have failed...again.
2) How is chaos keeping it together for 100 years? Their big weakness was a lack of logistics and predisposition to shoot each other as much as shoot as anyone else?
3) How have the chaos gods not gone fickle again?
I don't think Abbadon is looking for a symbolic victory. He may well be capable of attacking Terra right now and enjoying some measure of success, even if taking the Palace is out of reach. But such a move would mean overreaching himself and being exposed just as Horus was. I doubt he plans to make his Primarch's same mistakes.
As others have mentioned, Chaos isn't keeping it together. They were united under Abbadon in removing Cadia, the planetary equivalent of a cold shower. Now that it's gone, the entire galaxy lies there for the taking. There's no need for the disparate lords and warbands to fight, there's plenty of vulnerable targets there for everybody!
BrianDavion wrote:people whom think the IoM is strengthened and suoper noble bright need to read the novel. and understand the implications.
ok first of all, the great rift means that the IoM has effectivly lost half it's worlds. (per a video with the story writers today, they stated the astronomican doesn't work in Imperium Nihlus, and that chaos is "definatly winning I;d say")
secondly we're seeing mass assaults on the IoM, Ultramar, which was one of the more peaceful and prosperous parts of the IoM has been under seige for a good century now.
the IoM MAY be stronger, but the threat level just ramped up to 11.
I wouldn't even say that the Imperium is at all stronger, it's just more coordinated. On the Terran side of the rift anyway.
One of the biggest failures of the Imperium was its unwieldiness and sluggish response times. A planet had to call for aid, that plea had to be processed and considered, then available planets and reinforcements had to be identified and directed to the warzone. Then reports of how progress in that warzone was actually going had to make its way back and so...
The more planets you lose, well, the less data you've got clogging up those bureaucratic systems.
BrianDavion wrote: people whom think the IoM is strengthened and suoper noble bright need to read the novel. and understand the implications.
ok first of all, the great rift means that the IoM has effectivly lost half it's worlds. (per a video with the story writers today, they stated the astronomican doesn't work in Imperium Nihlus, and that chaos is "definatly winning I;d say")
secondly we're seeing mass assaults on the IoM, Ultramar, which was one of the more peaceful and prosperous parts of the IoM has been under seige for a good century now.
the IoM MAY be stronger, but the threat level just ramped up to 11.
But it's not lost half its important worlds. Of the major named planets, I think only Baal, Valhalla, and Mordian were on the wrong side.
Important how? Baal, or any Space Marine homeworld, is nothing compared to the importance of Armageddon. Similarly, Catachan might produce some awesome fighters but on a strategic level I'd swap it for any of the hundreds of Hive Worlds caught on the wrong side of the rift.
And losing the Astronomican didn't do anything - Guilliman was still able to risk his Indomitus Crusade, with all its Primaris Marines, and braved it safely. I mean, at this rate of xenos-fraternisation they might as well unplug the Vegetable-God and use the Webway.
You can't successfully conduct a campaign while relying ever-changing strategic routes that may open up and last a day or close off whole regions for hundreds of years. It'd be like planning an overseas trip on a strict budget and schedule then arriving at the airport hoping there's a flight that day.
And what's the point in taking Ultramar? It's Terra we want. Unleashing the Word Bearers and World Eaters on the 500 Worlds was to remove the Ultramarines from the equation, not to take Ultramar. While the Loyalists see Guilliman as their spiritual liege, lord commander, and saviour (in no particular order), he's "just" a primarch as far as Chaos is concerned.
That's easy. Ultramar is the equivalent of Terra on this side of the rift. It's the central point where sector-spanning campaigns will be based from. You've already got most worlds on this side of the rift completely isolated, seize Ultramar and even those worlds currently in contact with each other will cease to have a meaningful mutual strategy of defence beyond a system or sub-sector level.
Ultramar is on the same side of the rift as Terra. that said it's a pretty major center of the IoM. taking it would be a major victory for chaos. that and apparently Nurgle's taken a liking to it. Abbaddon's goal may be Terra, but the chaos gods no doubt have their own goals and desires
BrianDavion wrote: people whom think the IoM is strengthened and suoper noble bright need to read the novel. and understand the implications.
ok first of all, the great rift means that the IoM has effectivly lost half it's worlds. (per a video with the story writers today, they stated the astronomican doesn't work in Imperium Nihlus, and that chaos is "definatly winning I;d say")
secondly we're seeing mass assaults on the IoM, Ultramar, which was one of the more peaceful and prosperous parts of the IoM has been under seige for a good century now.
the IoM MAY be stronger, but the threat level just ramped up to 11.
But it's not lost half its important worlds. Of the major named planets, I think only Baal, Valhalla, and Mordian were on the wrong side.
Important how? Baal, or any Space Marine homeworld, is nothing compared to the importance of Armageddon. Similarly, Catachan might produce some awesome fighters but on a strategic level I'd swap it for any of the hundreds of Hive Worlds caught on the wrong side of the rift.
Important enough to be named. Baal is safe anyway - Guilliman made sure of it. Armageddon is on the Astronomican side, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. So is Catachan.
I mean, bar those I mentioned, the IoM lost... Corinthe. Famous being saved by the UMs. Angelis is famous for being raided by UMs. Alaric? Molov? The Dead World of Naogeddon? I mean, these aren't important planets, and definitely not to the players. Nobody cares.
Oh, I missed the somewhat famous Feudal World of Attila. There you go, one more.
And losing the Astronomican didn't do anything - Guilliman was still able to risk his Indomitus Crusade, with all its Primaris Marines, and braved it safely. I mean, at this rate of xenos-fraternisation they might as well unplug the Vegetable-God and use the Webway.
You can't successfully conduct a campaign while relying ever-changing strategic routes that may open up and last a day or close off whole regions for hundreds of years. It'd be like planning an overseas trip on a strict budget and schedule then arriving at the airport hoping there's a flight that day.
What? It's a criticism of the fluff writing rendering the loss of the Astronomican unimportant. If Baal had fallen because Guilliman hadn't been able to reach it in time, or simply the entire Indomitus Crusade being lost in the Warp, yes, its loss would have mattered. But there have been no tangible consequences due to the loss of the Astronomican on the other side (yet), and they started with an example where it didn't bloody matter.
And what's the point in taking Ultramar? It's Terra we want. Unleashing the Word Bearers and World Eaters on the 500 Worlds was to remove the Ultramarines from the equation, not to take Ultramar. While the Loyalists see Guilliman as their spiritual liege, lord commander, and saviour (in no particular order), he's "just" a primarch as far as Chaos is concerned.
That's easy. Ultramar is the equivalent of Terra on this side of the rift. It's the central point where sector-spanning campaigns will be based from. You've already got most worlds on this side of the rift completely isolated, seize Ultramar and even those worlds currently in contact with each other will cease to have a meaningful mutual strategy of defence beyond a system or sub-sector level.
Important enough to be named. Baal is safe anyway - Guilliman made sure of it. Armageddon is on the Astronomican side, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. So is Catachan.
BrianDavion wrote: Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
Hmmm, previously (as in, just a moment ago) I've espoused that I don't think the Imperium feels like it's threatened. Yes Chaos now has formidable teeth which is a massive step in the right direction, but the other threats don't feel that threatening at all.
Can't remember the last time I read about the 'nids eating anything other than Baal. Where's Leviathan in 100 years? The Eldar are allies apparently, rather than the insidious manipulative evil xenos they should be. The Orks are apparently helping out on Armageddon (although I must read closer on that as that might be hyperbole). The Newcrons are a joke, senile space-egyptians pretending to be mortals rather than a credible threat in any way whatsoever.
However, one phrase has changed my mind: 'The Imperium just lost half their worlds'.
That's huge.
So what if they're not named planets? The Imperium doesn't stand because of Fenris, or Armageddon, or Mordia, or Baal. Those are just the planets we hear the stories about. The Imperium stands because of the untold millions of planets funnelling Guardsmen into the meat grinder. Cut that in half and the Imperium are screwed, even if Mordia is still there...
'Sir, we've lost half the galaxy!'
'Don't worry son, we still have Mordia.'
'Oh, we're fine then. Those half-million dudes in snappy clothing will easily make up for the billions upon billions of Guardsmen we now don't have access to.'
BrianDavion wrote: Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
Oh God that makes the Eldar the Americans, riding in valiantly (late) to save the day.
They really must stop with that trope. Bored of hearing how the Eldar help the Imperium out against Chaos. I'd like to hear about how the self-centred manipulative xenos are actually self-centred and manipulative please. Just like the Americans
Important enough to be named. Baal is safe anyway - Guilliman made sure of it. Armageddon is on the Astronomican side, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. So is Catachan.
I'm just using these as examples. Even before being chewed half to death Baal was fairly useless as planets go. It's symbolically important, and even then only to the Blood Angels and their successor chapters. Meanwhile the better part of an entire sector depends on the continued survival of Armageddon.
I mean, bar those I mentioned, the IoM lost... Corinthe. Famous being saved by the UMs. Angelis is famous for being raided by UMs. Alaric? Molov? The Dead World of Naogeddon? I mean, these aren't important planets, and definitely not to the players. Nobody cares.
Oh, I missed the somewhat famous Feudal World of Attila. There you go, one more.
Well you see now, those are two very different things.
Players are obviously going to pay more attention to something like Catachan being conquered for example, because there's a whole range of models and people that collect Catachan armies.
However, the Imperium from a fluff stance is denied a whole lot more men and material if they lose RandomHiveWorld-Secundus than they do if they miss out on the small (but tough) amount of soldiers coming from Catachan.
And losing the Astronomican didn't do anything - Guilliman was still able to risk his Indomitus Crusade, with all its Primaris Marines, and braved it safely. I mean, at this rate of xenos-fraternisation they might as well unplug the Vegetable-God and use the Webway.
You can't successfully conduct a campaign while relying ever-changing strategic routes that may open up and last a day or close off whole regions for hundreds of years. It'd be like planning an overseas trip on a strict budget and schedule then arriving at the airport hoping there's a flight that day.
What? It's a criticism of the fluff writing rendering the loss of the Astronomican unimportant. If Baal had fallen because Guilliman hadn't been able to reach it in time, or simply the entire Indomitus Crusade being lost in the Warp, yes, its loss would have mattered. But there have been no tangible consequences due to the loss of the Astronomican on the other side (yet), and they started with an example where it didn't bloody matter.
You make a good point, if it's stated that Gulliman can dip across the rift as he pleases. He might be completely cut off from returning in force, at least for now.
And what's the point in taking Ultramar? It's Terra we want. Unleashing the Word Bearers and World Eaters on the 500 Worlds was to remove the Ultramarines from the equation, not to take Ultramar. While the Loyalists see Guilliman as their spiritual liege, lord commander, and saviour (in no particular order), he's "just" a primarch as far as Chaos is concerned.
That's easy. Ultramar is the equivalent of Terra on this side of the rift. It's the central point where sector-spanning campaigns will be based from. You've already got most worlds on this side of the rift completely isolated, seize Ultramar and even those worlds currently in contact with each other will cease to have a meaningful mutual strategy of defence beyond a system or sub-sector level.
What? They're both on the same side of the Rift.
My bad, I dumb dumbed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ynneadwraith wrote: The Newcrons are a joke, senile space-egyptians pretending to be mortals rather than a credible threat in any way whatsoever.
Doesn't the map indicate some fairly significant Necron empires being carved out of the (South)Eastern Fringe? Use to be that was fairly solid Imperial territory.
However, one phrase has changed my mind: 'The Imperium just lost half their worlds'.
That's huge.
Has the Imperium actually lost half their worlds, or is it that they've lost access to half their worlds? Both are significant drawbacks, but clearly one is significantly worse.
BrianDavion wrote: Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
Oh God that makes the Eldar the Americans, staunch isolationists with a few of their key figures trying to get them to commit.
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
Nova_Impero wrote: I wonder if we will get more stories involving the Greyshields?
my gut feeling is proably not as Dark Imperium saw the crusade ended and the primaris marines dispersed. which is a shame, as the crusade has a LOT of potential story wise, but chances are we're going to get mostly paragraphs here and paragraphs there, (likely contridotory at times) unless the black library decides they wanna make a series about it in ten eyars
Ynneadwraith wrote: The Newcrons are a joke, senile space-egyptians pretending to be mortals rather than a credible threat in any way whatsoever.
Doesn't the map indicate some fairly significant Necron empires being carved out of the (South)Eastern Fringe? Use to be that was fairly solid Imperial territory.
Perhaps, but it's not necessarily the nitty gritty that I object to with the Necrons, but the fact that they used to feel like a threat on par with the 'nids and Chaos, and their new fluff paints them as hopelessly impotent compared to that. They're fractured, fallible, petty, senile old coots. They could take half the Imperium and they'd still feel like they couldn't get their act together to invade a Walmart. They'd be too busy hitting each other with their walking sticks and forgetting where they were going.
Perhaps that's just a holdover still from the 5th codex. The 7th one was a definite improvement, although it still pales in comparison to the threat felt from the original codex. I wait hopefully for Necrons to feel like they're not a joke again, considering they're one of my favourite 'evil' forces
Ynneadwraith wrote: However, one phrase has changed my mind: 'The Imperium just lost half their worlds'.
That's huge.
Has the Imperium actually lost half their worlds, or is it that they've lost access to half their worlds? Both are significant drawbacks, but clearly one is significantly worse.
Very true, although from a practical perspective they should be functionally identical. The Imperium survived because it was such a colossal edifice that it couldn't be taken down piecemeal. If one sector was attacked, they could relocate whole worlds to either repopulate or drown the enemy in Guardsman. Without access to half of their worlds, their principle survival strategy (throw Guardsmen at it) is effectively halved. The other half of the galaxy might as well not be there.
That's just on the light side of the galaxy. On the dark side it's even worse. Not only have they got the same issue of 50% manpower, but they can't even rely on long-range response by warp travel as without the astronomican they'll have to revert to Age of Strife-style short hops through the warp.
If it were to play out realistically, what we should see is a brief flare of independent human interstellar empires on the 'dark' side as long-range travel breaks down, and a beleaguered but still unified 'light' Imperium functioning much as it did before but with reduced manpower. Then, in short order, the threats that threatened to topple the unified Imperium roll over the disorganised and weak mini-empires of the dark Imperium, before overwhelming the half-strength light Imperium.
To flip the earlier analogy around, it would be like the Imperium is Germany in WW2...except the Berlin Wall is in place and it's a nigh-impregnable forcefield.
Of course, playing it out realistically would result in some rather difficult changes to the setting, so I'd imagine it will go something more like 'each side is relatively fine because the threats are somehow divvied up half and half as well', which isn't quite how it would actually work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I was only ribbing the Americans with that I'm well aware of the general distaste the public of most countries has for getting involved with wars that aren't quite their problem yet, and leaders are beholden to public opinion.
Very true, although from a practical perspective they should be functionally identical. The Imperium survived because it was such a colossal edifice that it couldn't be taken down piecemeal. If one sector was attacked, they could relocate whole worlds to either repopulate or drown the enemy in Guardsman. Without access to half of their worlds, their principle survival strategy (throw Guardsmen at it) is effectively halved. The other half of the galaxy might as well not be there.
Actually that should not be completely accurate. Those worlds aren't isolated. Its a half a galaxy and they can still combine to defeat the chaos forces being arrayed against them.
The problem is that logically, chaos should be a minor threat less than the Tau. They have very few production facilities, aren't logisticians, just the troops, and all the fluff had them as being about able to focus as a legion of marines with ADD in a universe of "OH PRETTY!"
By this point logically chaos should have been obliterated or ran back to warp space to survive. But hey...GW .
Actually that should not be completely accurate. Those worlds aren't isolated. Its a half a galaxy and they can still combine to defeat the chaos forces being arrayed against them.
The problem is that logically, chaos should be a minor threat less than the Tau. They have very few production facilities, aren't logisticians, just the troops, and all the fluff had them as being about able to focus as a legion of marines with ADD in a universe of "OH PRETTY!"
By this point logically chaos should have been obliterated or ran back to warp space to survive. But hey...GW .
It depends I suppose just how widely the Imperium relocates its manpower. If it's only on a segmentum-wide basis then yeah the light Imperium's probably alright. If it's on a wider basis than that then they're in trouble.
I'll absolutely agree that Chaos should realistically be a relatively minor threat. While I do believe that similar to the Imperium we only really hear stories about the soldiers, and not the massive production facilities and logistic trains that allow the CSM to fight, I do think you're right. From a purely scale perspective, even with legions of daemons backing them up, Chaos should still be no match for the Imperium.
That's part of the reason I much prefer the narrative of 'death by a thousand cuts, beset by enemies from all sides' narrative you found in the earlier editions of 40k. It just felt more realistic. If the Imperium went mano-a-mano with any one threat in the universe it would roll over them (with the possible exception of the 'nids). However, because they could never fight one at a time, because they were so constantly harried they were always on the back foot, they were slowly being ground down into the dirt.
The newer feel of the narrative does seem a lot more 'goodies vs baddies' which just sets up a whole load of problems. It implies you need one big baddy for your big goody to fight, which means the CSM get inflated to unrealistic threat levels if you look at it logically. It also means that all your other threats seem insignificant. I get that that's a nature of the release schedule, with big campaigns focusing on smaller conflicts between two sides with spangly new models. However, it does make it tricky to tell a convincing story of galactic-scale warfare.
It's also part of the reason why I despise factions in the universe allying with the Imperium. The whole point is that the Imperium is beset on all sides by enemies (yes, the Eldar are enemies, unless recent fluff has made you forget). If suddenly one of those enemies turns into an ally then that feels like the break the Imperium needs to turn the tide. After which, because they're the only actual superpower in the galaxy, they should logically roll over all of the individual other powers with relative ease.
Frazzled wrote: Very true, although from a practical perspective they should be functionally identical. The Imperium survived because it was such a colossal edifice that it couldn't be taken down piecemeal. If one sector was attacked, they could relocate whole worlds to either repopulate or drown the enemy in Guardsman. Without access to half of their worlds, their principle survival strategy (throw Guardsmen at it) is effectively halved. The other half of the galaxy might as well not be there.
Actually that should not be completely accurate. Those worlds aren't isolated. Its a half a galaxy and they can still combine to defeat the chaos forces being arrayed against them.
The problem is that logically, chaos should be a minor threat less than the Tau. They have very few production facilities, aren't logisticians, just the troops, and all the fluff had them as being about able to focus as a legion of marines with ADD in a universe of "OH PRETTY!"
By this point logically chaos should have been obliterated or ran back to warp space to survive. But hey...GW .
keep in mind Imperium Nihlus apparently is difficult to navigate around, lines of communication are proably unreliable, thus forcing the worlds to be fairly localized. some with good local resources and leadership will stand, but a lot of others are likely to fall
Chaos should be relatively unaffected by the travel disruption, no? The main issue is lack of Astronomican on the dark side of the rift, unless Chaos ships navigate by that as well.
Ynneadwraith wrote: Chaos should be relatively unaffected by the travel disruption, no? The main issue is lack of Astronomican on the dark side of the rift, unless Chaos ships navigate by that as well.
Very true, however warp storms aren't the main cause of the disadvantage for the Imperium.
Chaos are affected by warp storms.
The Imperium is affected by the same warp storms and they can't navigate properly without the light of the Astronomican.
'Relatively unaffected' was definitely the wrong choice of words. It would have been better to say 'comparatively unaffected by the lack of Astronomican'.
Actually, thinking about it. How does Chaos navigate the warp properly? Sorcery and deals with daemons? The Gods subtly affect the tides of the warp to benefit their followers? They don't, but just lump it 'cos they're 'ard?
Chaos .... as chaotic as Chaos is, the Position of chaos could be an endless number of different ones.?
The single shot, the only one they would get, was the HH for the Traitors.
The Traitors are in a Position of free raids and "let the Galaxy burn" ... but....
back in the Days of the United IoM, the Galaxy was a playing field with almost no real contenders at the end of the Great Crusade.
Now?
- Tyranids added in.
- Necrons re-booted.
- Orks.
- Eldar not dead yet.
- New guys too, Alien Empires...
So this "Dark Imperium", increasing the threat of Chaos couldn't decrease the threat of Nids, Orks and Crons if the Plan isn't to have a many put into "reserve".
May I add the question if the new fluff is 100% centered around Humans ( Loyalist) vs Humans ( Traitors ) and the rest can go on Holidays until 9th Edition?
as for how chaos navigates they eaither use sorcrrers or well.. demons. they are not dependant on the astronomicon.
Yeah i thought that would be the case, in which case they'd be better off than the Dark Imperium who have lost their primary method of stable long-distance warp travel.
as for how chaos navigates they eaither use sorcrrers or well.. demons. they are not dependant on the astronomicon.
Yeah i thought that would be the case, in which case they'd be better off than the Dark Imperium who have lost their primary method of stable long-distance warp travel.
Frazzled wrote: Very true, although from a practical perspective they should be functionally identical. The Imperium survived because it was such a colossal edifice that it couldn't be taken down piecemeal. If one sector was attacked, they could relocate whole worlds to either repopulate or drown the enemy in Guardsman. Without access to half of their worlds, their principle survival strategy (throw Guardsmen at it) is effectively halved. The other half of the galaxy might as well not be there.
Actually that should not be completely accurate. Those worlds aren't isolated. Its a half a galaxy and they can still combine to defeat the chaos forces being arrayed against them.
The problem is that logically, chaos should be a minor threat less than the Tau. They have very few production facilities, aren't logisticians, just the troops, and all the fluff had them as being about able to focus as a legion of marines with ADD in a universe of "OH PRETTY!"
By this point logically chaos should have been obliterated or ran back to warp space to survive. But hey...GW .
Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.
Frazzled wrote: How do the Choas forces navigate? derp I see I you just asked the same question.
I am not convinced Chaos is any better off.
Chaos navigates warp storms by a Chaos God copying Piccard and saying "make it so", a Sorcerer or a cabal of them guides them through the storm, or the exceptionally crazy just say "screw it" and charge straight through it and don't care about the losses. There is a difference however between Abaddon or a major Chaos Lord of Khorne leading an invasion force where the patron god(s) will intervene and Lord Scrub the Terrible who is just some random renegade space marine and doesn't even have any chaos boons. He's probably going to have a really bad day.
May I add the question if the new fluff is 100% centered around Humans ( Loyalist) vs Humans ( Traitors ) and the rest can go on Holidays until 9th Edition?
I am guessing everyone will get their bite of the cherry in due course. This is just the first novel set in the post-Indomnus Crusade setting.
BrianDavion wrote: Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.
Interesting thought what with the nature of time distortions from warp travel, inconsistent communication and the Ordo Chronos not being able to keep the calendar straight.
The Horus Heresy might have happened much more recently then the Imperium thinks. Maybe Guilliman's only been cat napping for 100 years....
BrianDavion wrote: Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.
Not to string the thread into a different topic, but while production was lower, production of tanks and dudes with rifles/submachine guns, pointy sticks and a bottle of vodka were higher. You are correct though (they only surpassed mid 1943) and its a misnomer people don't realize.
However in this instance, while chaos may have "tons" of worlds they build things on, they don't have 1,000,000,000 worlds. The contemplated production capacity of the IOM is absolutely staggering. If the IoM is facing defeat from one cause then they will focus resources to that cause. As with the Sabbat crusade, while chaos could expand initially, once the IoM focused, it was able top defeat them.
Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.
While the game focuses on marines, they are not that relevant Its the capital ships that matter.
So no word on the Ynnari? Disappointing but I'm not surprised at least there's an audio novel that gives us a brief glance at the "Alliance" between Robute and Yvraine. Hopefully we'll get more information as more books come out.
May I add the question if the new fluff is 100% centered around Humans ( Loyalist) vs Humans ( Traitors ) and the rest can go on Holidays until 9th Edition?
Its more that the fluff is 100% centred about Marines (Loyalist) vs Marines (Traitors).
BrianDavion wrote: Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.
Not to string the thread into a different topic, but while production was lower, production of tanks and dudes with rifles/submachine guns, pointy sticks and a bottle of vodka were higher. You are correct though (they only surpassed mid 1943) and its a misnomer people don't realize.
However in this instance, while chaos may have "tons" of worlds they build things on, they don't have 1,000,000,000 worlds. The contemplated production capacity of the IOM is absolutely staggering. If the IoM is facing defeat from one cause then they will focus resources to that cause. As with the Sabbat crusade, while chaos could expand initially, once the IoM focused, it was able top defeat them.
Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.
While the game focuses on marines, they are not that relevant Its the capital ships that matter.
Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.
Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.
BrianDavion wrote: Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships. So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.
Not to string the thread into a different topic, but while production was lower, production of tanks and dudes with rifles/submachine guns, pointy sticks and a bottle of vodka were higher. You are correct though (they only surpassed mid 1943) and its a misnomer people don't realize.
However in this instance, while chaos may have "tons" of worlds they build things on, they don't have 1,000,000,000 worlds. The contemplated production capacity of the IOM is absolutely staggering. If the IoM is facing defeat from one cause then they will focus resources to that cause. As with the Sabbat crusade, while chaos could expand initially, once the IoM focused, it was able top defeat them.
Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.
While the game focuses on marines, they are not that relevant Its the capital ships that matter.
Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.
Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.
Spoiler:
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. If Chaos had such capacity, they wouldn't have lost in the first place.
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.
Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.
Spoiler:
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. If Chaos had such capacity, they wouldn't have lost in the first place.
They lost in the first place because at the end of the Heresy there were still Imperial Fists alive to man the walls of the Imperial palace.
Modern Chaos is evidently weaker than what Horus had at his disposal. Horus had half of the Imperium behind him, more Marine legions with more manpower, and still had access to daemon allies. Most importantly, Horus had a united force to throw at the Imperium.
Abaddon can only dream of that. Any alliance he builds inevitably breaks down, the Chaos gods are more focused on their struggle against each other than anything else, and he does not have the benefit of half the galaxy turning traitor to tie up Imperial forces.
At the same time the Imperium is as strong as it has ever been, with significant numbers of Marines, a huge navy, endless cannon fodder and vast space that cannot be crossed easily without exposing the space version of a flank to Imperial forces.
Honestly Chaos as an overt force never struck me as a credible threat to the Imperium. Subversion and corruption, those work, sure, but as a military force to give Abaddon what he wants, literally death to the false Emperor, there was never much chance of that happening. I like the analogy with WW2. Abaddon had one chance to strike Terra and cut off the head before, as with every last Black Crusade before, the giant that is the Imperium reacts and brings its full face to bear. Even then, he would have to succeed where Horus failed, and given the military might of the Imperium, I have my doubts that that was ever realistic.
Because of this I don't find the new background convincing. Well, I do in a "Guilliman saves the galaxy" kind of way. I can see that. But as Chaos doing anything significant to the Imperium, that's a bit of a stretch. Cutting off the Dark Imperium is evidently not too harmful because Guilliman had no trouble reaching Baal with pinpoint precision to save the Blood Angels in their hour of doom in spite of blowing up how dark and doomed everything is on that side of the warp storm. The Dark Imperium is only lost to the Imperium if the warp storm keeps at it, otherwise it'll simply be reclaimed afterwards. Any industrially strong worlds will remain Imperial bastions for a long time and the most threatened worlds are the ones with the smallest value. Chaos as a threat? Honestly, starvation on hive worlds due to cut warp lanes to agriworlds is a bigger problem. Tyranids nomming worlds without much opposition are a bigger threat. Necrons reclaiming their empire are a bigger threat. Both of them because they don't care about warp storms or the Astronomican. Whereas Chaos does at least to a degree (although in the case of warp storms to a significant degree,. or else the Cadian Gate wouldn't have had such a big role to keep Chaos forces locked in the Eye of Terror).
Ultimately I don't see how much has changed. The Imperium has only half of its worlds to supply its military, but it only has half of its ground to defend. Most important Imperial worlds are on the right side and keep functioning as normal. Chaos has gained the ability to overextend itself and merrily does so. So what has really changed other than that the Imperium gained a military and logistical genius who reforms the Imperium to be more efficient at what is used to do pretty well to begin with? The whole new setup is just fake peril for the shiny new hero to overcome.
BrianDavion wrote: Do you also think the allies should have just landed paratroopers in Berlin in 1939?
To use your analogy Chaos is Germany and the IOM is Mother Russia. Failbaddon had to win before the productive capacity of the IOM buried him in a sea of imperial ships.
So following that timeline its now Winter 1941.
The problem with that analogy is that, historically, Germany's GDP and production capabilities far outstripped the USSR in 1939, continues to do so in 1940, and in 1941 the Germans blew up most of the USSR's industry and forced the rest to run away. It wasn't until Germany was way on the back foot and their industry being bombed that the USSR's production capabilities overshadowed Germany's.
Not to string the thread into a different topic, but while production was lower, production of tanks and dudes with rifles/submachine guns, pointy sticks and a bottle of vodka were higher. You are correct though (they only surpassed mid 1943) and its a misnomer people don't realize.
However in this instance, while chaos may have "tons" of worlds they build things on, they don't have 1,000,000,000 worlds. The contemplated production capacity of the IOM is absolutely staggering. If the IoM is facing defeat from one cause then they will focus resources to that cause. As with the Sabbat crusade, while chaos could expand initially, once the IoM focused, it was able top defeat them.
Eh? Chaos has tons of forge worlds run by the Dark Mechanicus or the Iron Warriors in the Eye of Terror which do nothing but make weapons and ammunition. Or the daemon forges which birth daemon engines. And unlike most factions save the Eldar with the webway, they have a massive advantage in maneuverability as they can both slow the FTL of their foes via warp storms or rip open warp rifts and deploy in the middle of enemy territory. Then there's also the rather serious question if Chaos actually has more Astartes than the Imperium, as they don't suffer the normal problems with Imperial recruitment installed by the Codex.
While the game focuses on marines, they are not that relevant Its the capital ships that matter.
Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.
Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.
Spoiler:
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. If Chaos had such capacity, they wouldn't have lost in the first place.
They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).
They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).
I'm guessing you're a chaos player...
Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.
They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).
I'm guessing you're a chaos player...
Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.
No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.
They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).
I'm guessing you're a chaos player...
Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.
No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that warfare heavily focuses on them, they absolutely do matter. Marines are frequently the operatives that kill Warlord Titans or destroy enemy capital ships via boarding actions. Their production matters, especially when the forces of Chaos focus on them as the backbone of their mortal forces while supported by endless hordes of slave fodder. All a Chaos frigate needs to take out an Imperial Battleship is for one round of boarding torpedoes to collide after rupturing the shields with the deployed Astartes then slaughtering the crew and driving the ship into another battleship or using it as a guided missile to blow up an entire hive.
Ultimately the logistics of Chaos are superior to all else purely because of the warp and the Gods' own daemonic legions and their war engines.The assets Chaos dedicates to the materium isn't anything close to the full force because the Chaos Gods simply don't care, to them the main conflict is between them as they endlessly struggle for dominance.
Spoiler:
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. If Chaos had such capacity, they wouldn't have lost in the first place.
They lost in the first place because at the end of the Heresy there were still Imperial Fists alive to man the walls of the Imperial palace.
Modern Chaos is evidently weaker than what Horus had at his disposal. Horus had half of the Imperium behind him, more Marine legions with more manpower, and still had access to daemon allies. Most importantly, Horus had a united force to throw at the Imperium.
Abaddon can only dream of that. Any alliance he builds inevitably breaks down, the Chaos gods are more focused on their struggle against each other than anything else, and he does not have the benefit of half the galaxy turning traitor to tie up Imperial forces.
At the same time the Imperium is as strong as it has ever been, with significant numbers of Marines, a huge navy, endless cannon fodder and vast space that cannot be crossed easily without exposing the space version of a flank to Imperial forces.
Honestly Chaos as an overt force never struck me as a credible threat to the Imperium. Subversion and corruption, those work, sure, but as a military force to give Abaddon what he wants, literally death to the false Emperor, there was never much chance of that happening. I like the analogy with WW2. Abaddon had one chance to strike Terra and cut off the head before, as with every last Black Crusade before, the giant that is the Imperium reacts and brings its full face to bear. Even then, he would have to succeed where Horus failed, and given the military might of the Imperium, I have my doubts that that was ever realistic.
Because of this I don't find the new background convincing. Well, I do in a "Guilliman saves the galaxy" kind of way. I can see that. But as Chaos doing anything significant to the Imperium, that's a bit of a stretch. Cutting off the Dark Imperium is evidently not too harmful because Guilliman had no trouble reaching Baal with pinpoint precision to save the Blood Angels in their hour of doom in spite of blowing up how dark and doomed everything is on that side of the warp storm. The Dark Imperium is only lost to the Imperium if the warp storm keeps at it, otherwise it'll simply be reclaimed afterwards. Any industrially strong worlds will remain Imperial bastions for a long time and the most threatened worlds are the ones with the smallest value. Chaos as a threat? Honestly, starvation on hive worlds due to cut warp lanes to agriworlds is a bigger problem. Tyranids nomming worlds without much opposition are a bigger threat. Necrons reclaiming their empire are a bigger threat. Both of them because they don't care about warp storms or the Astronomican. Whereas Chaos does at least to a degree (although in the case of warp storms to a significant degree,. or else the Cadian Gate wouldn't have had such a big role to keep Chaos forces locked in the Eye of Terror).
Ultimately I don't see how much has changed. The Imperium has only half of its worlds to supply its military, but it only has half of its ground to defend. Most important Imperial worlds are on the right side and keep functioning as normal. Chaos has gained the ability to overextend itself and merrily does so. So what has really changed other than that the Imperium gained a military and logistical genius who reforms the Imperium to be more efficient at what is used to do pretty well to begin with? The whole new setup is just fake peril for the shiny new hero to overcome.
except the problem is any seige would take too long, thus Abbaddon wants to hedge his bets by basicly having the rift spread as far as terra. right now the IoM (and everyone else who understands whats going on) are racing against time to stop the rift from spreading, let alone close whats there
They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).
I'm guessing you're a chaos player...
Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.
No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.
Tell me, what are these books you speak of.
Talon of Horus if I recall was the book that mentioned Horus was a sacrifice for a greater cause, and just paying attention to specific details mentioned in codices or novels.
They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).
I'm guessing you're a chaos player...
Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.
No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.
Tell me, what are these books you speak of.
Talon of Horus if I recall was the book that mentioned Horus was a sacrifice for a greater cause, and just paying attention to specific details mentioned in codices or novels.
IIRC a few books of late have had Horus refered to by the chaos gods as "the sacrificed King"
They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).
Yeah, that's the way I've understood it. The Chaos Gods won the Heresy, and both sides were played. Now there's endless war and suffering which benefits the Chaos Gods, exactly as they would want.
It also lends a really nice Lovecraftian feel to things. They're entities whose intelligence is utterly beyond out comprehension. Did we really think that us mere mortals could outwit them? It's not a chess game between humanity and the Gods. We're nothing but the pieces on the board.
Where I do differ slightly from the above is that I don't really believe that Chaos has the capacity to roll over everyone. They may be all-powerful within their realm, but they have limited ability to affect the material plane. They can't just open a warp rift and start spewing out daemons willy nilly. They have to plot and scheme and barter their way into the minds of mortals to open a conduit between the warp and the materium, through which they can sow terror.
It's in this way that Chaos may be held at bay. The Gods themselves cannot be defeated by mere mortals. However, their mortal servants can be thwarted, and their influence in the materium limited.
Plus, as far as I can see the Chaos Gods require intelligent warp-connected minds to exist. Ultimately, the death of intelligent life in the Milky Way would likewise be the death of the Chaos Gods. As such, they have a vested interest in not allowing the Necrons or Tyranids to succeed. This is the only way in which they are truly vulnerable.
Frazzled wrote: Well if we followed that, then Chaos has no chance, because it doesn't actually want to win.
That's kind of the point with the big baddies (Chaos, Tyranids, Oldcrons). Ultimately, they don't actually give a toss about 'winning'. They just consume, destroy, or perpetuate misery.
The Chaos Space Marines care about winning, because their war is a war against the Imperium. Chaos itself doesn't care about winning, it only cares about perpetuating misery and destruction. I suppose the only way for the CSM to actually win and wipe out the Imperium is to try and trick the Gods into doing it. Subtly place the idea of glory to the first who kills the Emperor into their gargantuan minds, and let them fight through who will do it first.
I don't particularly fancy my chances of out-Tzeentching Tzeentch though...
They didn't lose. Horus was a sacrificial lamb and the outcome of the Horus Heresy was exactly what Chaos wanted all along- the Chaos Gods didn't want to completely destroy the Imperium. They wanted to create unending war to feed and entertain them. Chaos absolutely has the capacity to roll over just about everybody- their daemonic legions are referenced as being literally infinite and Daemons can possess anything- even stars (resulting in both of said stars going supernova when the possessers squabbled). The core of Chaos' background is that the only thing they hate more than each other is the Emperor. If he's not a problem for them at the moment they'll return to the Great Game (the war between the four).
I'm guessing you're a chaos player...
Zinc within! Zinc without!
-Battle cry of the Iron Warriors lesser known brother band, the Zinc Warriors. Also known for their "Not the face! Not my beautiful face!" battle strategy.
No, I field Dark Angels. However unlike it seems like most on this site, I actually read the books GW publishes.
Tell me, what are these books you speak of.
Talon of Horus if I recall was the book that mentioned Horus was a sacrifice for a greater cause, and just paying attention to specific details mentioned in codices or novels.
I was infact, being sarcastic. I don't recall that bit however from ToH, but I've not read it in sometime.
)
