Plaintiff herein affirms all previous paragraphs 1 – 12 and all hereinafter in his Cause of Action for Restraint of Trade by GW, as if set forth again and as more fully set forth hereinafter:
GW more and more blatantly violates Antitrust law to restrain trade of the models they job-out in China – to interfere with Store’s ability to do business freely – to Steal my sales.
For near-30-years GW has always maintained that we sellers can “Set any price we want for the items we wholesale from them (GW)”. Yet, more recently GW ‘asked’ its retailers “not to have a ‘shopping cart’ on our websites – since they were adding one to theirs”!? Soon after, without agreement from Stores – GW ‘asked’ that “advertised prices (on the internet) not be more than 20%-Off MSRP – directly contradicting their previous assurances and our extant long-held Verbal Good-Faith Contract. Later, (unknown to Plaintiff) GW said 15%-off.
Eventually (and unknown to your Plaintiff Stores) GW ‘claimed’ to have quietly instituted a ‘policy’ to outright ‘prohibit’ any/all sales which used internet.
This would be like tool supplier telling retailers 50-years ago that:“Customers can buy in your Store – but if they call you on the Telephone – then they HAVE to buy from us direct”.
GW ‘Investor Relations’ webpage betrays their criminal intent (as well as socio-pathology to ethics regarding the Great Debt they owe to the America Stores that made them:
In 1987‘GW’ in England released the SAME essential game: a space-empire starting in the 31st Century with warp travel, Dropships, Power-armoured gene-modified humans, tracked & hover-tanks – and huge robots & pilots (called a ‘Titan’), with guns, lasers, plasma weapons…
Famed Author, Robert A. Heinlencoined a common-law copyright of: Space Marines in his his Novels: “Misfits” (1939), “The Long Watch” (1941), and culminating in “Starship Troopers” (1959). Space Marines were Heinlen’s paragons of human spacefaring military prowess (often combatting voracious, sentient space-insects)!
So, in 1987 GWtook Heinlen’s Space Marines – to add it to FASA’s game-theme, in a double-theft of others’ intellectual property. Artist R. Geiger teamed with 20th Century Fox, Ridley Scott, & James Cameron, to make films of human-devouring Insectoids: ALIEN (1979) and ALIENS (1986). In October 1987 GW released ‘New Rules’ with their rip-off ALIENS, renamed: Genestealers-Tyranids – identical to Geiger’s/FOX’s images and vision.
So: Heinlen’s Space Marinesbattle Geiger’s ALIENS – in GW’s game – just like in Heinlen’s original Starship Troopers! Never legally paid for!
Prior to stealing these, GW’s Warhammergame was a 110% rip-off of R.R. Tolkien – a Middle Earth magic/fantasy war of Tolkein’s Orcs-Goblins-Trolls-Ogres-Dwarves-Elves, etc. The litany of GW’s copyright thefts and abuses are endless, from the exact spelling of Tolkein’s Eldar – to exact sculpts of Universal’s Dracula, Frankenstein, Werewolf, & Mummy. GW’s 5-man Terminator Squad – is a Xerox of FASA’s 5-man Elemental Star, et al.
IANAL, but if those are direct quotes from the actual legal argument that's been submitted, it reads more like a butthurt ex fan who knows just enough legalese to sound impressive than an actual legal claim for tens of millions.
IANAL, but if those are direct quotes from the actual legal argument that's been submitted, it reads more like a butthurt ex fan who knows just enough legalese to sound impressive than an actual legal claim for tens of millions.
I was thinking the same thing when I read through the complaints. There's an hour and a half long phone call with the guy at the end of the article, so it might be worth listening to.
Ranting about Land of the Free Home of the Dollar etc and branding GW as Eurotrash sershurlists while tenuously invoking antitrust law and legal enforcements of unprovable verbal contracts in order to try and induce the government to crack down on a business might be some of the most breathtaking hypocrisy I've ever seen.
The "IP stealing" bit reads like a legal complaint filed by Trump's twitter account
Note - I don't disagree that a lot of what the guy states is true, or that much of it is shady, I'm just not sure exactly how most of it is *illegal*.
Valkyrie wrote: Can I get a simplified explanation of what's going on?
I think it's pointing out that some elements of GW's IP isn't 100% original - space marines may have been based in part from old books, tyranids based in parts from the alien movies, for example.
But that's completely ridiculous argument.
There's a half hour discussion of the suit on youtube, not sure if I care enough to listen to the whole thing.
Valkyrie wrote: Can I get a simplified explanation of what's going on?
Seem like some rando maybe-lawyer, maybe-store owner is throwing a bunch of dubious legalese into a complaint against GW in hopes of collecting the $12.5 million USD he has listed for himself in punitive damages.
If he'd done his research he would find that GW had tried to trademark 'Space Marine' and bought a case against an author. The courts determined that 'Space Marine' is in the common weald and no one has the exclusive rights to it. Now they will be able to throw this back at the plaintiff.
I'm not a fan of the Kirby era legal suits and deep pocket litigation that they undertook. But I will look forward to watching GW take this guy apart piece by piece.
Chapterhouse was educational, this one is completely frivolous.
If quoted correctly by spikeybits, that lawsuit is about as coherent and cogent as a Kirby preamble and has about as much merit as GW's case against Chapterhouse.
1) Florida (one of the many "joke" states of the US)
2) Game store owner (this is okay)
3) ...and Lawyer.
If you're a competent lawyer, you're not running a game store. This means someone who attended law school and somehow graduated but likely practices little to no law except attempting poorly worded attempts to getting small settlements from large companies. If the wording in that article is verbatim, the "lawyer" in this instance is borderline illiterate...and that's not a good start to your case.
He shouldn't have too big of a lawyer's bill. This should be thrown out for lack of standing at the very least.
While I haven't read the whole pleading the parts quoted above don't demonstrate either a harm to the plaintiff or even if the plaintiff is facing potential harm.
Herpderpderp 3 cents per model....markup blah blah.
So only looking at the cost to cast a single model. Not the cost of concept, design, mould production etc?
Ah man, this should work well for him....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, pretty sure GW fought off a 'Genestealers = Xenomorph' case yonks ago. On account of the lack of a prehensile tale, 50% more limbs, different breeding cycle, totally different head shape and lack of extendable secondary mandible?
At least, that's what my old manager told me?
Side note - anyone know which drugs the plaintiff is on? Want to make sure people avoid them.
warboss wrote: If quoted correctly by spikeybits, that lawsuit is about as coherent and cogent as a Kirby preamble and has about as much merit as GW's case against Chapterhouse.
GW's legal team set a high bar regarding incoherence in legal proceedings. Glad to see someone is up to the challenge.
MadCowCrazy wrote: He could to be right on a few of the points.
I know from personal experience that GW does not always honor their return policy.
Fraud, Price Fixing, Tortious Interference, Breach of Contract, Unjust Enrichment, Restraint of Trade, Conspiracy and Antitrust Violations.
Of these I'd say Restraint of Trade, Conspiracy and Antitrust Violations are accurate.
Price Fixing? Isn't GW allowed to set whatever prices they want?
Doesn't price fixing usually involve two (or more) competing companies who decide instead of competing they want to manipulate the market prices? If I recall correctly I think AMD and Nvidia were sued for price fixing their graphics cards a few years back and convoluted to raise prices higher than they should have been. Here is the Canadian Law take on it. http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/h_00112.html
If I understand it correctly he wants to make GWs IP public domain within 10 years?
He wants allot of money to give to whomever he feels GW has ripped off (I get the feeling he is trying to get the backing of some large greedy movie studios trying to make a quick buck)?
So if he actually won, all of AOS and 40K would become public domain? GW would probably go out of business and the hobby as we know it would come to an end?
So what would happen? We would have hundreds of companies making "official" models, rules, fluff etc for AOS and 40K trying to make a quick buck. It would water down the hobby to the point of it being just one big mess.
I do agree allot of GWs business practices are deplorable and anti consumer though. Opening a GW store next to a FLGS because they have high sales just to try and steal customers is just really bad and all it does is make the FLGS lose customers so he has to cut back which could result in lower sales overall so GW closes their store and the area never recovers, this has happened on a few places from what I've heard.
GW not supplying independent stockists with enough pre-order products or their shipments being late is also something I've heard about.
Wonder what the markup for Australia is, 100,000%?
And he claims allGW's models are actually made in China.
Must've hallucinated the factory when I got the tour....the one in Nottingham. And the one he mentions in his own papers in Memphis. Which I've not had a tour of.
I was thinking this may be an actual legit complaint from a store owner until I read the rant. ~sigh~
I haven't looked at this in depth, but the guy definitely has a point. They made stores remove online shopping carts for years, let people add them back as long as they decreased their discount to 15%, and they haven't been the best company when it comes to IP.
They have no doubt ripped off Aliens (so much so that some people I used to know that worked in the Studio were expecting a lawsuit from 20th Century Fox in the 90s). Let's not forget the ridiculous copyright claims like trying to get Space Marine copyright and a whole bunch of other BS.
I love the new GW, don't get me wrong. I give the company buckets of money much to my wife's dismay, but they are certainly not without fault and they should be taken to task on some of these things. Unfortunately, this appears to be handled by "a fan" so it isn't going to go anywhere.
Someone on Reddit looked for this guy in the Florida Bar Association and couldn't find him. So my guess is either he isn't a licensed attorney or was disbarred (which helps explain the game store thing). So this won't take long for GW to test him apart.
Also, this guy can't complain on behalf of individuals not listed as plaintiffs (he listed a bunch of content creators that GW has riffed off of such as HR Giger).
The thing is , even if GW is guilty of all the things he says, it still won't hold up. Violating a verbal contract means nothing. Opening a competing store is common practice. In his own suit he repeatedly says GW 'asked'stores to do things. . In terms of violating copyright it is up to the holders of the ip to sue, not a third party.
This case had absolutely no legs to stand on, whether you think GW's business practices are bad or not.
While I agree this guy is on the almond side of nuts, I always thought that GW had been lucky they hadn't been sued into the ground by the likes of Frank Herbert, Aasimov (The Foundation sort of setting), Fox/Geiger (for Tyranids/Genestealers), J.R.R. Tolkein (Eldar, Orks), Moorcock (Chaos depiction), Rebellion Development (Judge Dredd = Arbites, HabBlocs = Hive cities) and Sunrise (Gundam = Tau Battlesuits) and others.
I guess GW was mostly lucky they were such a small factor back in the 80-90's they just got overlooked, and they've become established now that most people actually aren't aware of how derivitive their stuff actually is.
Pretty sure it's the 31st Millenium....if one can't even get the basics right?
Well, Star Trek did face a bit of a decline after The Next Generation but not enough for them to go from close to utopian society to genocidal fascism within the space of 700 years
casvalremdeikun wrote: Someone on Reddit looked for this guy in the Florida Bar Association and couldn't find him. So my guess is either he isn't a licensed attorney or was disbarred (which helps explain the game store thing). So this won't take long for GW to test him apart.
Also, this guy can't complain on behalf of individuals not listed as plaintiffs (he listed a bunch of content creators that GW has riffed off of such as HR Giger).
Probably represents himself. He has a fool for a client. Also, this stuff can go in the courts for years & cost thousands.... what a Derp.
Stormonu wrote: I always thought that GW had been lucky they hadn't been sued into the ground by the likes of Frank Herbert, Aasimov (The Foundation sort of setting), Fox/Geiger (for Tyranids/Genestealers), J.R.R. Tolkein (Eldar, Orks), Moorcock (Chaos depiction), Rebellion Development (Judge Dredd = Arbites, HabBlocs = Hive cities) and Sunrise (Gundam = Tau Battlesuits) and others
Me too, as the whole 40k Background (in context of what happened before M41) is a mix of Battletech, Starship Troopers and Dune which would be ok, if they would not sued other people for using the same stuff.
1) Florida (one of the many "joke" states of the US)
2) Game store owner (this is okay)
3) ...and Lawyer.
If you're a competent lawyer, you're not running a game store. This means someone who attended law school and somehow graduated but likely practices little to no law except attempting poorly worded attempts to getting small settlements from large companies. If the wording in that article is verbatim, the "lawyer" in this instance is borderline illiterate...and that's not a good start to your case.
Not defending this guy (he's nuts) but one of the major SoCal game stores is owned and run by a lawyer. His getting into running a game store was more after 15+ years in the law, he wanted to get out of that crap before it killed him.
Oh I am getting popcorn out for this! One more butt hurt soul that in convinced that the world owes him something. Learn to be a proper salesman, run events people want to be apart of, make your money the old fashion way EARN IT through working for it not buy discounting it! People pay full price for GW stuff all over the globe, just because you can't fire sale your stock and corner the market as the cheapest seller of plastic soldiers in Florida does not make you a victim of some evil across the pond power, good god does he have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? I am well aware that as Americans we are self entitled (to our detriment more often then I would like to see ) we want the highest quality on every thing and god help you if there is a price to match. Discounting only works in volume and every one wants the cheapest price they can get ( not an American only trait ) but welcome to a truly first world problem buddy. At the end of the day we are talking about toy soldiers, not the cure for cancer or a eco friendly power source. Get over your self and prepare for the wrath of the counter suit or at the very least nurd karma for wasting our time. LOL this should be good!
Wow, the part about good faith agreements... that's how you get screwed. Some places, verbal contracts are upheld in court, but that assumes a lot, including good documentation.
Yeah, the whole thing comes off as a rant, and filing legal papers riddled with poor use of English and sprawling attacks on IP that would set bizarre precedents hurting the gaming and fantasy industries (and which I'm sure the legal team involved with Tolkien's IP wouldn't blink at, since they've had relationship with GW for ages) given how derivative tons of the genre is, and gets grumpy about a company charging ridiculous markup on luxury goods is something I can't imagine does anything but waste a few people's time before getting rejected.
A precise and well-documented claim about personal business loss due to GW's practices could probably, with legal support, get some compensation and might give GW incentive to use better practices. This won't go anywhere.
Look guys, if Lucas was sued to high heaven for Star Wars (Lensman, Dune, Valerian, Hidden Fortress...) then I'm sure GW is safe for using other stuff for inspiration. Riffing is not ripping off, but it is the cornerstone of new creation.
Chairman Aeon wrote: Look guys, if Lucas was sued to high heaven for Star Wars (Lensman, Dune, Valerian, Hidden Fortress...) then I'm sure GW is safe for using other stuff for inspiration. Riffing is not ripping off, but it is the cornerstone of new creation.
And there's the very thing.
Inspiration is inspiration. Your end product just can't be an absolute carbon copy.
Space Marines? GW has gone into pretty exacting detail about what makes an Astartes an Astartes. It's not eugenics. It's full on technoarcana and new organs.
Genestealers? Beyond being exoskeletal alien horrors not adverse to mucking about on spaceships, there's really not all that much in common with Xenomorphs.
I don't believe the Plaintiff is a lawyer, at least in Florida, where the complaint is filed. He's not listed on the Florida Bar site and more importantly, in his complaint, its filed as pro se.
In any event, the case will be dismissed as soon as GW files its answer. In his causes for action, the elements of the actual laws/Florida/federal case law allegedly violated are not listed which are required since the plaintiff must prove that the acts of GW violate those elements.
Valkyrie wrote: Can I get a simplified explanation of what's going on?
Seem like some rando maybe-lawyer, maybe-store owner is throwing a bunch of dubious legalese into a complaint against GW in hopes of collecting the $12.5 million USD he has listed for himself in punitive damages.
He even threw RICO into the mix...
Should be interesting to watch.
~Eric
Does using terms like "110%" really count as even "dubious legalese" these days?
I don't think that's going anywhere... especially weird that he conflates their internet sales policy (which was dubious, but finally is changed now right, and allows for shopping carts?) with their IP being derivative of random others.
Nah. It just sounds like he is a very frustrated game shop owner who couldn't afford a lawyer. If he hired one, I'm sure the case could be taken on a contingency (win fee) basis and he'd only be on the hook for filing fees. Not too familiar with GW practices, but from what I hear he might have a reasonable antitrust case...
MadCowCrazy wrote: He could to be right on a few of the points.
I know from personal experience that GW does not always honor their return policy.
Fraud, Price Fixing, Tortious Interference, Breach of Contract, Unjust Enrichment, Restraint of Trade, Conspiracy and Antitrust Violations.
Of these I'd say Restraint of Trade, Conspiracy and Antitrust Violations are accurate.
Price Fixing? Isn't GW allowed to set whatever prices they want?
Doesn't price fixing usually involve two (or more) competing companies who decide instead of competing they want to manipulate the market prices? If I recall correctly I think AMD and Nvidia were sued for price fixing their graphics cards a few years back and convoluted to raise prices higher than they should have been. Here is the Canadian Law take on it. http://www.competitionbureau.gc.ca/eic/site/cb-bc.nsf/eng/h_00112.html
Price fixing can be both vertical and horizontal. Horizontal price fixing is what most people think of, that is companies colluding to set certain prices, which is usually done to squeeze out lesser competition. Resale maintenance or MAP as it's sometimes called is referred to as vertical price fixing. That is the manufacturer states in their contract with the reseller that the price can not be lower than X. Now back in 1911 this was ruled illegal in the US. However, later on Colgate instead of putting it in the contract released a letter that simply stated if you sell below X we won't sell to you. The court decided this was ok because it wasn't a contract. Recently (2007, probably why we are seeing lots of these policies pop up) a case came before the supreme court about this and the Supreme Court decided that the 1911 ruling should no longer apply and it shouldn't be per se (automatically) illegal. Instead they said that lower courts should apply the "rule of reason" on a case by case basis.
So vertical price fixing, that is resale maintenance policies, is neither legal nor illegal in the US currently. Instead a company must be taken to court, and once the company is taken to court it must prove that it's resale maintenance policy is not anti-competitive. Honestly if someone was going to take anyone to court over this to try and break their MAP it should be ANA. I think ANA would have a tough time explaining their MAP plus the fact they only deal with Alliance for distribution as pro-competitive. Who can afford to fight that battle though without some big pro bono representation like Chapter House had.
Stormonu wrote: While I agree this guy is on the almond side of nuts, I always thought that GW had been lucky they hadn't been sued into the ground by the likes of Frank Herbert, Aasimov (The Foundation sort of setting), Fox/Geiger (for Tyranids/Genestealers), J.R.R. Tolkein (Eldar, Orks), Moorcock (Chaos depiction), Rebellion Development (Judge Dredd = Arbites, HabBlocs = Hive cities) and Sunrise (Gundam = Tau Battlesuits) and others.
I guess GW was mostly lucky they were such a small factor back in the 80-90's they just got overlooked, and they've become established now that most people actually aren't aware of how derivitive their stuff actually is.
Man if you're going down that route better get ready for about 99% of science fiction and fantasy to be sued somehow. Though i'm not sure by who in some cases: elves and orcs didn't originate from tolkien.
People often conflate common sci-if and fantasy tropes with intellectual property.
Trouble is, things like Space Soldiers, Fantasy Dwarves and Elves are common themes in a number of different books, movies, games, folk tales and fables.
It's how you make your version of these unique that makes them yours.
So GW are the only company in the world that took heavy inspiration from/ripped off Tolkien? Shouldn't he be also going after WOTC/Hasbro, Blizzard and nearly every other company with a medieval Europe styled fantasy IP? Likewise with the 40k side, if the superficial similarities between GW Space marines and Tyranids with other IP's are enough to bring this case then there are a lot of other much bigger companies who are just as guilty.
techsoldaten wrote: Best thing I learned from reading that complaint: injection molding services from China cost $0.03 a figure.
Yeah but creating the molds themselves is where the huge costs are. If you only make 200 figures, the number per shoots up.
Yeah, assuming that is true, one can only expect that doesn't take into account designing and creating the master; mold casting; packing; shipping; distro; actually paying their staff; etc. I'm sure GW makes a killing on their minis, but seems rather unbelievable.
techsoldaten wrote: Best thing I learned from reading that complaint: injection molding services from China cost $0.03 a figure.
Yeah but creating the molds themselves is where the huge costs are. If you only make 200 figures, the number per shoots up.
Yeah, assuming that is true, one can only expect that doesn't take into account designing and creating the master; mold casting; packing; shipping; distro; actually paying their staff; etc. I'm sure GW makes a killing on their minis, but seems rather unbelievable.
True that.
As to any type of copyright claims, one has to be the holder of the copyright to make a claim. Even if so, the elements have to be identical and not general fantasy themes. Infringement of a genetically engineered super human wearing power armor claim would be an uphill battle. On the other hand, a claim relating to a genetically engineered super human wearing power armor from a chapter of those super humans that are still loyal to an emperor where their genes came from fighting against renegade brothers would be much stronger.
techsoldaten wrote: Best thing I learned from reading that complaint: injection molding services from China cost $0.03 a figure.
Yeah but creating the molds themselves is where the huge costs are. If you only make 200 figures, the number per shoots up.
Yeah, assuming that is true, one can only expect that doesn't take into account designing and creating the master; mold casting; packing; shipping; distro; actually paying their staff; etc. I'm sure GW makes a killing on their minis, but seems rather unbelievable.
Oh, I realize GW has other costs and the right to make money off their product. The cost of injection plastic molding is what is remarkable, that's cheap.
Oh, yeah, at least the numbers I've looked at have always suggested that HIPS is the way to as long as you can be sure you'll sell enough: the cost is in the prep, not the casting, so if you manage to cover the cost up to mold making, you're basically printing money from then on out.
techsoldaten wrote: Best thing I learned from reading that complaint: injection molding services from China cost $0.03 a figure.
They don't cost that much. Typically less than a penny per. Of course depends on the amount of sprues. The box they put the sprues in costs more than the sprues themselves.
I'm genuinely wondering if the plaintiff may have mental health issues. And I absolutely don't say that as a joke.
His technique is rambling to say the least. Given he's blaming GW solely for the failure of his businesses, could he be in the middle of some kind of breakdown?
If somebody wants to spend money on the status, they can access it through PACER.
Edit:
It reads like a small store owner who was damaged by the ToS changes that GW put out in the last couple of years. He's bitter, very bitter. Unless he's a total crank, which he might very well be, he's probably wanting to cost GW money in legal fees.
Good point. I mostly interact with print media when making big runs, but you're generally looking at like a 10-20% increase in total printing (just printing) price each time you double the order size (so 4x the print run would still probably hit under 1.5x the printing cost)-- they really incentivize you making big orders, so if GW expects they can move a ton of whatever it is, they can print things for better cost.
GW’s 5-man Terminator Squad – is a Xerox of FASA’s 5-man Elemental Star
even IF you accept one was a copy of the other, Space Hulk has a release date of 1987 vs Battletechs Technical Readout 3050 which has a release date of 1990.
the battletech and 40k complaints are all similarily incoherant.
Good point. I mostly interact with print media when making big runs, but you're generally looking at like a 10-20% increase in total printing (just printing) price each time you double the order size (so 4x the print run would still probably hit under 1.5x the printing cost)-- they really incentivize you making big orders, so if GW expects they can move a ton of whatever it is, they can print things for better cost.
For models it's all upfront and the costs go into tooling and making the molds which ranges from $35K on up. After that, banging out sprues is super cheap.
theharrower wrote: For models it's all upfront and the costs go into tooling and making the molds which ranges from $35K on up. After that, banging out sprues is super cheap.
I definitely recognize that the bulk is in tooling, but don't know what setup fees etc. come to, or how heavily rewarded bulk orders are. Also, I'm pretty sure HIPS mold tooling has gone down in price in recent years?
The lawyer who commented is right. Although I wish Gw get a good hit to teach them a lesson and punish there dickery, in this case, it's just sombody being greedy and giving justice a go to make money. None of his claim about their illegal policy (though much likely to proven right) are backed up with enough evidence, and attacking GW for not paying legacies to Tolkien or whoever the feth it is is ridiculous, especially when the people in question just came up with a modernized version of older myths and legens. No way this can work in court. This guy should feel ashame for filling such a lawsuit.
The only reason he's brought this is because he was caught selling counterfeit - he even admits that's why his contract was pulled.
Rob Baer has his own axe to grind with GW hence his effective championing / sympathy towards the litigant.
Art Steventon wrote: The only reason he's brought this is because he was caught selling counterfeit - he even admits that's why his contract was pulled.
Rob Baer has his own axe to grind with GW hence his effective championing / sympathy towards the litigant.
More details? Is the counterfeit stuff in the legalese somewhere? How does Rob Baer figure in?
The counterfeit is yes. He mentions losing his contract due to 'lies and fakery' or words to that effect.
Spikey Bits were the ones to dig the case out of the legal channels - I believe after the litigant tipped them the wink. So now they're posting it all over social media as some kind of trial of the year....
Baer is bitter after being ignored for playtesting on eighth ed... and has had an axe to grind for years...
ImAGeek wrote: Can you sue people for ripping things off that aren't yours anyway?
Well you can sue. The question is whether the lawsuit will win.
If the IP challenge is being made by someone who doesn't own the IP I don't think there is much the court can do even if it finds in the favour of the plaintiff unless the plaintiff has financial title to the IP concerned, most the plaintiff can get is sympathies.
Art Steventon wrote: The counterfeit is yes. He mentions losing his contract due to 'lies and fakery' or words to that effect.
Spikey Bits were the ones to dig the case out of the legal channels - I believe after the litigant tipped them the wink. So now they're posting it all over social media as some kind of trial of the year....
Baer is bitter after being ignored for playtesting on eighth ed... and has had an axe to grind for years...
Sounds like 100% of Baer's Spikey Bitz income is thanks to GW for making a game. Not sure why he'd want to bite the hand that feeds him...
Also, I read through all of the legal docs. Wow. That was highly entertaining. I love that one of his complaints (#27?) is that GW ended WFB and replaced it with Age of Sigmar, thus betraying its fanbase. Hahahahahahahahaha. Seriously. This reads like the memoirs of a bitter lunatic. I'm sure he feels genuinely snubbed, but this isn't the way to go about redressing an injury.
Kriswall wrote: I love that one of his complaints (#27?) is that GW ended WFB and replaced it with Age of Sigmar, thus betraying its fanbase. Hahahahahahahahaha. Seriously. This reads like the memoirs of a bitter lunatic. I'm sure he feels genuinely snubbed, but this isn't the way to go about redressing an injury.
Yeah, that was a good one.
Contrary to what some might think, a company can pretty much decide not to continue production of whatever product they make and it is not some kind of "breach of implied contract" (which isn't even a thing and not in any way legally enforceable; I mean, "implied contract"? Come on...).
If that were the case I'd like to sue pretty much every company that ever stopped making something I used to buy from them but is no longer made.
Kriswall wrote: I love that one of his complaints (#27?) is that GW ended WFB and replaced it with Age of Sigmar, thus betraying its fanbase. Hahahahahahahahaha. Seriously. This reads like the memoirs of a bitter lunatic. I'm sure he feels genuinely snubbed, but this isn't the way to go about redressing an injury.
Yeah, that was a good one.
Contrary to what some might think, a company can pretty much decide not to continue production of whatever product they make and it is not some kind of "breach of implied contract" (which isn't even a thing and not in any way legally enforceable; I mean, "implied contract"? Come on...).
If that were the case I'd like to sue pretty much every company that ever stopped making something I used to buy from them but is no longer made.
I'm kind of salty that Mr. Pibb was discontinued in my region and replaced by Pibb Xtra. I should probably call a lawyer.
Plaintiff
David Moore
DBAs:Imperial Emporium, Iron Crown Games, Starchild Goods, Fellowship Crafts and Hobbies 2206 NE 17th Court
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33305
Does this dude even have a store? I'm not finding a physical presence. It looks like Fellowship Crafts and Hobbies is operated out of a small house in Fort Lauderdale, FL.
Just curious. Is it possible this guy has been doing online sales from his house and is being shut down? Maybe an eBay reseller?
If I was a gaming manafacturer I'd immediatly be ceasing to do busniess with this guy, I'd be concerned his unhinged behavior would result in him targeting me next
This guy is almost certainly a crank. He wrote that he has an LLM in law, but while that usually is a degree earned after getting a JD, that doesn't mean he passed the bar, or even got his JD from an accredited school. (Keep in mind, I can start the Polonius College of Law in my shed and hand out whatever degrees I want. You just won't be able to sit for the bar exam after graduating.)
And handling cases like this costs far less than you'd think. Courts, even federal courts, don't like crank cases, and this will likely be dismissed under 12(b)(6) for failure to state a claim. Basically, even if everything in the affidavit and complaint were true, GW wouldn't be legally on the hook for anything. Trying to compare mark up of a retail item with a stock pump and dump scheme is not creative or "out of the box," it's more likely to come from a place of psychosis than ignorance.
Alas, complaints like this are not uncommon, so courts know how to handle them.
I'm kind of salty that Mr. Pibb was discontinued in my region and replaced by Pibb Xtra. I should probably call a lawyer.
Or just represent yourself like the store owner... or give GW's fired head of their legal department that orchestrated the equally stupid Chapterhouse case a call since she might have some free time on her hands. Your options aren't limited (unlike primaris marine kits!).
OMG! Part of his lawsuit is that GW used China to make some minis & he is trying to start a miniature company using Chinese factories to produce his minis! Oh the irony! Or stupidity? He is suing GW, FW, and has named several people specifically too that he is suing....
Art Steventon wrote: The counterfeit is yes. He mentions losing his contract due to 'lies and fakery' or words to that effect.
Spikey Bits were the ones to dig the case out of the legal channels - I believe after the litigant tipped them the wink. So now they're posting it all over social media as some kind of trial of the year....
Baer is bitter after being ignored for playtesting on eighth ed... and has had an axe to grind for years...
Couldn't this just be lying about a store or something? Like claiming you have a store when in fact you run your store from home?
Or does it actually say somewhere that he was caught counterfeiting GW models?
Must've hallucinated the factory when I got the tour....the one in Nottingham. And the one he mentions in his own papers in Memphis. Which I've not had a tour of.
I guess my friend does not work there then and he paid yo do nothing there then...
There's some production in China sure. But the majority of that is UK based and in Nottingham.
Art Steventon wrote: The counterfeit is yes. He mentions losing his contract due to 'lies and fakery' or words to that effect.
Spikey Bits were the ones to dig the case out of the legal channels - I believe after the litigant tipped them the wink. So now they're posting it all over social media as some kind of trial of the year....
Baer is bitter after being ignored for playtesting on eighth ed... and has had an axe to grind for years...
Couldn't this just be lying about a store or something? Like claiming you have a store when in fact you run your store from home?
Or does it actually say somewhere that he was caught counterfeiting GW models?
So you complain about a company you make fakes of to sell...
Hmmm if ve worried if that provable you may get a counter case...
theharrower wrote: For models it's all upfront and the costs go into tooling and making the molds which ranges from $35K on up. After that, banging out sprues is super cheap.
I definitely recognize that the bulk is in tooling, but don't know what setup fees etc. come to, or how heavily rewarded bulk orders are. Also, I'm pretty sure HIPS mold tooling has gone down in price in recent years?
I have some friends in the industry. The figures I'm quoting aren't super accurate by any stretch, but $35K is on the lower side nowadays from what I understand. Few years ago they used to be in the $50K-$100K range.
Those figures are slightly dubious in the context of GW. The dies take a long time and not inconsiderable skill and experience to produce, and that costs money. GW aren't paying a third party to do it though, they have their own machines and operators, so they will pay comparably less for the same equivalent.
Plaintiff
David Moore
DBAs:Imperial Emporium, Iron Crown Games, Starchild Goods, Fellowship Crafts and Hobbies 2206 NE 17th Court
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33305
So who are all these stores? David Moore only has 1 store right? So he is getting backing from a few others as well?
Imperial Emporium seems to be a shop in Shelby,NC. Iron Crown Games on Google only gives me results for Iron Crown Enterprises. Starchild Goods doesn't give me any results for anything hobby-related. The Fort Lauderdale address on Google Maps shows an advertising agency (CashOff Inc.). Unfortunately there's no street view for the location
GoatboyBeta wrote: So GW are the only company in the world that took heavy inspiration from/ripped off Tolkien? Shouldn't he be also going after WOTC/Hasbro, Blizzard and nearly every other company with a medieval Europe styled fantasy IP? Likewise with the 40k side, if the superficial similarities between GW Space marines and Tyranids with other IP's are enough to bring this case then there are a lot of other much bigger companies who are just as guilty.
Edit- forgot to add the and
Tolkien did attempt to sue TSR over the use of the word/creature orc. Of course, TSR also did get into trouble for other "misappropriation" of Tolkien stuff - hobbits had to become halflings, ents became treants, balrogs became balors, etc. And then there was the whole Deities and Demigods book from TSR.
I think that somehow GW managed to skim under the radar - I especially remember feeling tyranids were an Aliens rip-off when the entire line was re-invisioned shortly after the Aliens movie came off, and the warriors appearance changed to look much more like alien queens.
Azreal13 wrote: Those figures are slightly dubious in the context of GW. The dies take a long time and not inconsiderable skill and experience to produce, and that costs money. GW aren't paying a third party to do it though, they have their own machines and operators, so they will pay comparably less for the same equivalent.
Yeah pretty much this. If it was making a model ( large kit like magnus or a huge tank or something) from scratch using a 3rd party the whole way ( artist sculpting, sourcing and cutting the metal molds, production of the models, packaging etc etc) like from Renedra or something I could see 35k. But GW does EVERYTHING in house from the sculpting, to the mold cutting, plastic injection and packaging. So the 35k seems a wee bit high.
The dies (aka molds) don't cost as much as they used to. Everything is cut in CNC machines now, so basically its put in the cutting program and off you go (yes there is more to it but that's the basics). Back when they had to make a 3up and use a pantomime machine which was done 3rd party then the costs would be huge but was offset by large print runs.
I think this so called law suit is going to give us some comic gold for a little while.
BrianDavion wrote: yeah because then we all know GW would immediatly continue busniess as usual except changing the things we dislike about them magicly!
ohh or better yet GW would magicly get bought out by some small gaming company you like!
Nah they'd just do what they did last time this happened:
1. Annihilate the longest running IP for the sake of copyright.
2. Forsake their legacy in favour of Trademark symbols.
The more I read about this, the less it appears to be actual news. "Obscure clergyman sends rambling letter to local courthouse". Slow day at Spiky Bits?
I'm more dissapointed that Spiky Bits are giving this insanity air time, showing (what I had noticed for a long time) Rob's obvious saltiness over not being on the playtest of 8th and his long standing grudge with GW.
He's bitter about something GW "took away from" him, and he obviously hasn't thought about what kind of impact that kind of precedent would have on the sci-fi and fantasy genres (it would basically completely destroy them). Of course, this will likely get thrown out the second it hits the desk.
First of all I am no lawyer and there are more details that come into play, but I don't think this would ever fly in court.
This guy owes GW a lot of money and is just using this as a distraction to grab news headlines.
Also, how is this breaking the Sherman-Anti Trust Act or price fixing if GW is the sole intellectual property owners to their own franchise? We aren't talking about a monopoly on diamonds here, it's a plastic toy figurine series.
Okay... price fixing among competitors? What competitors? Forge World? Max Mini? Dragon Forge? Victoria miniatures? They are all 3rd party.
The only real competition they have are among themselves and at the mercy of GW for lending them their licensing to produce unofficial 40k miniatures.
Think of it like Apple's iPhone, Apple has much more strict standards on how to sell the iPhone. If GW is breaking the law than Apple is breaking the hell out of the law.
Freddy Kruger wrote: I'm more dissapointed that Spiky Bits are giving this insanity air time, showing (what I had noticed for a long time) Rob's obvious saltiness over not being on the playtest of 8th and his long standing grudge with GW.
Skinnereal wrote: IF he won, just think what GW would do to us.
Price hikes, like never seen before!
They wouldn't even have time for that; chances are it would kill GW. Not just the costs but have to rebuild the entire franchise from the ground up. GW would likely be dead in the water.
We'd likely see a short term boost in sales to other miniature companies for a while; followed by a dwindling population of gamers. For better or worse GW is the gateway into miniature wargames for many people. It's got advertising and a highstreet market place that others just don't have at all. Heck mention GW to nearly anyone and they generally know what you mean (sometimes a little prompt that its miniatures/toys). Say Privateer Press or Mantic or heck even Reaper and most people won't have a clue even with hints.
Miniature wargames is a very niche hobby; we don't get adverts during sports games or on the TV; many urban areas only just manage to hold out one small shop and then its often shared with magic the gathering and multiple other games. Without GW I think the hobby would, in the long term, honestly suffer.
And of course that's without realising that the IP side of this legal challenge would kill most other fantasy games off as well. Pretty much anything with an orc or post-Lord of the Rings. Sci-fi games would also be seriously crippled. We might get lucky and all hold out for cuthulu (its at least copyright expired); but honestly if this ever seriously made it to court and was won then it would only harm the market.
The guy's written a long rant that mostly doesn't make any legal or normal sense. It's getting a bit of attention but give it a week or less and it will go away unless the guy pushing it has some deep pockets to keep it in the lime light (and honestly it sounds like if he's got 2 failed and one failing company and has to do resculpts to stay afloat - chances are he's not got those deep pockets).
I think your vision may be a bit blurred. GW does no advertising in the US (as far as I'm aware). What shops it does have here are usually near other FLGS and/or malls. It may be the biggest dog (in terms of sales) but I attribute that more to it being around longer than anything else.
In fact, I don't remember the last time that I saw an ad for any miniature game on TV or any non-game media. I honestly don't know how new gamers begin except through things like RPGs and Star Wars.
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: First of all I am no lawyer and there are more details that come into play, but I don't think this would ever fly in court.
This guy owes GW a lot of money and is just using this as a distraction to grab news headlines.
Also, how is this breaking the Sherman-Anti Trust Act or price fixing if GW is the sole intellectual property owners to their own franchise? We aren't talking about a monopoly on diamonds here, it's a plastic toy figurine series.
Okay... price fixing among competitors? What competitors? Forge World? Max Mini? Dragon Forge? Victoria miniatures? They are all 3rd party.
The only real competition they have are among themselves and at the mercy of GW for lending them their licensing to produce unofficial 40k miniatures.
I don't know how all the laws of this work, but one thing they do is hold back stock from independent retailers and push it to their own stores. For example, FLGS orders 10 copies of Dark Imperium to cover 8 preorders and they want 2 to have on the shelf. Trade Rep calls FLGS and says they can only allocate 4 boxes to their store. If the other 4 customers want them, they'll need to order online or visit a local GW if there is one. That doubles GWs profit margin right there. Is it illegal? I have no idea. Is it shady? Hell yes and it happens all that time.
Similar thing with moving stuff from retail to direct only. Doesn't give your FLGS the option to order that item at all. GW corners the market on that item as a customer can't get it anywhere else. That can charge what they want. Lots of stuff has recently been moved to direct only.
Also, when deciding where to open a new store, they'll look at the sales figures of all the FLGS. If an FLGS is doing exceptionally well, they'll open up a GW store nearby. Makes sense as they go where there is an existing market and where the money is, but leaves a bad taste in the mouth of a FLGS as they are the ones that built up that market. A lot of Warhammer customers get siphoned from their store and funneled over to the new local GW store. Causing the FLGS to lose money. I don't know the legality of this either as IANAL, but you can understand how this falls in the gray as the local GW Store is in direct competition with the FLGS.
There are other examples I can cite as well (I could get into the whole online shopping cart thing and fixed percentage discounts, but this is long enough). I love the new GW, don't get me wrong, but they aren't innocent in this and I understand why this dude is pissed. Nothing will happen with this as the guy that is suing them seems like a whack job who admitted to recasting and selling their models? So dumb. Anyway, there is potential for a case like this, but not when someone is ranting in their complaints and brings up ridiculous stuff like IP rights (which while might be true), have no bearing on the case at hand.
techsoldaten wrote: Best thing I learned from reading that complaint: injection molding services from China cost $0.03 a figure.
Yeah but creating the molds themselves is where the huge costs are. If you only make 200 figures, the number per shoots up.
Yeah, assuming that is true, one can only expect that doesn't take into account designing and creating the master; mold casting; packing; shipping; distro; actually paying their staff; etc. I'm sure GW makes a killing on their minis, but seems rather unbelievable.
Their annual profit for last period (ending may 2017) was £30.5 million, with net assets worth around £62.5 million. A rise in profit from the previous period of ~£17 million.
Now, one could argue the grounds for a reduction in cost of models to buyers, but, we don't know how much of that was driven by the (now) successful version of AoS. Likewise, i'd expect profits to be even higher in their statement for the period to May 2018, simply because of 8th edition and all the new releases.
If profits are maintained in the financial year AFTER 8th edition has finished being released, then, we as customers will be in a very strong position to lobby for price reductions, in addition to any savings made by the company as a result of more advanced technology and tools available to them. But until the full release of 8th is out of the way, there is no way of fully understanding what the true state of affairs are for GW as a profit making company.
Aw man, I've bought stuff from this dude on eBay. He uses the name "modelgirl" to sell on there. He's even sent me messages asking if I wanted the sector imperialis bases I bought from him to be "custom painted" for an additional fee. It says all the sales go to benefit a charity.
Bi'ios wrote: Aw man, I've bought stuff from this dude on eBay. He uses the name "modelgirl" to sell on there. He's even sent me messages asking if I wanted the sector imperialis bases I bought from him to be "custom painted" for an additional fee. It says all the sales go to benefit a charity.
Really? I've bought from "modelgirl" before as well.
Bi'ios wrote: Aw man, I've bought stuff from this dude on eBay. He uses the name "modelgirl" to sell on there. He's even sent me messages asking if I wanted the sector imperialis bases I bought from him to be "custom painted" for an additional fee. It says all the sales go to benefit a charity.
Really? I've bought from "modelgirl" before as well.
Yeah, it's the name used as one of the stores on one of the court documents. It's also mentioned that he provides services for some charities in one of the documents
techsoldaten wrote: Best thing I learned from reading that complaint: injection molding services from China cost $0.03 a figure.
Yeah but creating the molds themselves is where the huge costs are. If you only make 200 figures, the number per shoots up.
Yeah, assuming that is true, one can only expect that doesn't take into account designing and creating the master; mold casting; packing; shipping; distro; actually paying their staff; etc. I'm sure GW makes a killing on their minis, but seems rather unbelievable.
Their annual profit for last period (ending may 2017) was £30.5 million, with net assets worth around £62.5 million. A rise in profit from the previous period of ~£17 million.
Now, one could argue the grounds for a reduction in cost of models to buyers, but, we don't know how much of that was driven by the (now) successful version of AoS. Likewise, i'd expect profits to be even higher in their statement for the period to May 2018, simply because of 8th edition and all the new releases.
If profits are maintained in the financial year AFTER 8th edition has finished being released, then, we as customers will be in a very strong position to lobby for price reductions, in addition to any savings made by the company as a result of more advanced technology and tools available to them. But until the full release of 8th is out of the way, there is no way of fully understanding what the true state of affairs are for GW as a profit making company.
If this guy somehow wins any little food place paying attention will sue McDonalds, who does basically the same thing. Finding an area where food sales and traffic are high and then building a store.
Also, having been involved with almost all levels of the supply chain at some point what typically happens is that your FLGS wants to order 10 Dark Imperium and their distributor says "hey no problem!", 9 other stores want the same. Your distributor then orders 100 copies from GW. GW wants to keep some on hand and they have to allocate the rest to distributors (who have ordered way more than they have in total). The distributor gets some amount, lets say enough for each FLGS to get 6 of the 10 they ordered. They hen allocates them as they see fit. If your FLGS places large frequent orders, they are more likely to get their 10 than the FLGS that places small, infrequent orders. The distributor then tells your small FLGS which only got 3, "The bastards didn't send us enough, feth GW amirite?" while they have sent the full order of 10 to the larger, more frequent ordering FLGS.
It's standard business practice unfortunately, keep your big payers happy while making sure you do just enough so the little guy doesn't go somewhere else. Not saying this is the case 100% of the time, but it probably is in many cases.
Bi'ios wrote: Aw man, I've bought stuff from this dude on eBay. He uses the name "modelgirl" to sell on there. He's even sent me messages asking if I wanted the sector imperialis bases I bought from him to be "custom painted" for an additional fee. It says all the sales go to benefit a charity.
Really? I've bought from "modelgirl" before as well.
Yeah, it's the name used as one of the stores on one of the court documents. It's also mentioned that he provides services for some charities in one of the documents
Funny, I got a refund from him some time ago and reported him to Ebay as I pre-ordered the Captain Centos model from him and he sent me a message saying "Oh, I didn't get enough but I will send you a high quality recast instead at the same price!"
Skinnereal wrote: IF he won, just think what GW would do to us.
Price hikes, like never seen before!
They wouldn't even have time for that; chances are it would kill GW. Not just the costs but have to rebuild the entire franchise from the ground up. GW would likely be dead in the water.
We'd likely see a short term boost in sales to other miniature companies for a while; followed by a dwindling population of gamers. For better or worse GW is the gateway into miniature wargames for many people. It's got advertising and a highstreet market place that others just don't have at all. Heck mention GW to nearly anyone and they generally know what you mean (sometimes a little prompt that its miniatures/toys). Say Privateer Press or Mantic or heck even Reaper and most people won't have a clue even with hints.
Miniature wargames is a very niche hobby; we don't get adverts during sports games or on the TV; many urban areas only just manage to hold out one small shop and then its often shared with magic the gathering and multiple other games. Without GW I think the hobby would, in the long term, honestly suffer.
And of course that's without realising that the IP side of this legal challenge would kill most other fantasy games off as well. Pretty much anything with an orc or post-Lord of the Rings. Sci-fi games would also be seriously crippled. We might get lucky and all hold out for cuthulu (its at least copyright expired); but honestly if this ever seriously made it to court and was won then it would only harm the market.
The guy's written a long rant that mostly doesn't make any legal or normal sense. It's getting a bit of attention but give it a week or less and it will go away unless the guy pushing it has some deep pockets to keep it in the lime light (and honestly it sounds like if he's got 2 failed and one failing company and has to do resculpts to stay afloat - chances are he's not got those deep pockets).
I agree, if he did somehow win and got everything he is asking for, GW would fold and the games would die off. Why? Because he wants to take control of all the IP GW currently has in order to make it all public domain within 10 years. This, not only obviously affects GWs hold over the model creation, but suddenly the setting, lore and the games themselves. Suddenly anyone can create a new faction from nowhere with whatever rules they would want and create the models for them. People would be able to write, or re-write, new books and things would expand in a way that will truly diminish what we currently have, and what is being worked on.
Sure, it could also lead to a lot of cool things, especially in regards to movies etc, but the state of the game and the setting would no longer be controlled.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note to add - As per their financial statement, the cost of "product and supply" for the year to May 2017 was one of their smallest expenses at £2.9 million.
That said, the running costs total £83 million for the year.
Skinnereal wrote: IF he won, just think what GW would do to us.
Price hikes, like never seen before!
They wouldn't even have time for that; chances are it would kill GW. Not just the costs but have to rebuild the entire franchise from the ground up. GW would likely be dead in the water.
We'd likely see a short term boost in sales to other miniature companies for a while; followed by a dwindling population of gamers. For better or worse GW is the gateway into miniature wargames for many people. It's got advertising and a highstreet market place that others just don't have at all. Heck mention GW to nearly anyone and they generally know what you mean (sometimes a little prompt that its miniatures/toys). Say Privateer Press or Mantic or heck even Reaper and most people won't have a clue even with hints.
Miniature wargames is a very niche hobby; we don't get adverts during sports games or on the TV; many urban areas only just manage to hold out one small shop and then its often shared with magic the gathering and multiple other games. Without GW I think the hobby would, in the long term, honestly suffer.
And of course that's without realising that the IP side of this legal challenge would kill most other fantasy games off as well. Pretty much anything with an orc or post-Lord of the Rings. Sci-fi games would also be seriously crippled. We might get lucky and all hold out for cuthulu (its at least copyright expired); but honestly if this ever seriously made it to court and was won then it would only harm the market.
The guy's written a long rant that mostly doesn't make any legal or normal sense. It's getting a bit of attention but give it a week or less and it will go away unless the guy pushing it has some deep pockets to keep it in the lime light (and honestly it sounds like if he's got 2 failed and one failing company and has to do resculpts to stay afloat - chances are he's not got those deep pockets).
I agree, if he did somehow win and got everything he is asking for, GW would fold and the games would die off. Why? Because he wants to take control of all the IP GW currently has in order to make it all public domain within 10 years. This, not only obviously affects GWs hold over the model creation, but suddenly the setting, lore and the games themselves. Suddenly anyone can create a new faction from nowhere with whatever rules they would want and create the models for them. People would be able to write, or re-write, new books and things would expand in a way that will truly diminish what we currently have, and what is being worked on.
Sure, it could also lead to a lot of cool things, especially in regards to movies etc, but the state of the game and the setting would no longer be controlled.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note to add - As per their financial statement, the cost of "product and supply" for the year to May 2017 was one of their smallest expenses at £2.9 million.
That said, the running costs total £83 million for the year.
the courts won't even consider costs b ecause there IS no monopoly. Anymore then Disney has a monopoly on movies just because I Really like Mickey Mouse.
That's what I gathered from the demands as well: it reads like the plaintiff is so angry at Games Workshop he feels entitled to ownership of its entire North American retail apparatus and intellectual property rights, based on some very bizarre claim that GW is not allowed to build an IP based on a specific implementation of a broad concept that was implemented specifically (and differently) implemented somewhere else.
He seems to be arguing that Heinlein exclusively owns soldiers in power armour, as a concept. Or that Gieger exclusively owns the idea of an alien bug monster that hijacks the human body for its reproductive cycle (and frankly, I imagine Ridley Scott would disagree!); and because of that, GW has no claim to its specific implementation thereof.
As a teenager I fancied myself a creative type who would complain often and loudly about now 'nothing is original anymore', to the immense interest if no one. This reads a lot like that: there's no appreciation for nuance, no acknowledgement that there's any level to which their differences are accentuated, no caveat that the argument can be extended to other wargames, other media, or any fiction anywhere with disastrous ramifications.
BoLS put it aptly when they pointed out that the lawsuit was filed by Florida Man, the hero we really don't need.
Apparently the guy won a case vs. Wizards of the Coast?
"At high level, is this called a "bathtub case". The kitchen sink wasn't big enough so the plaintiff through the bathtub at them."
And damn... why does that website always do nothing but lag out, spam me with ads or re-direct me to other pages randomly while trying to entertain myself with some of the articles?
Skinnereal wrote: IF he won, just think what GW would do to us.
Price hikes, like never seen before!
They wouldn't even have time for that; chances are it would kill GW. Not just the costs but have to rebuild the entire franchise from the ground up. GW would likely be dead in the water.
We'd likely see a short term boost in sales to other miniature companies for a while; followed by a dwindling population of gamers. For better or worse GW is the gateway into miniature wargames for many people. It's got advertising and a highstreet market place that others just don't have at all. Heck mention GW to nearly anyone and they generally know what you mean (sometimes a little prompt that its miniatures/toys). Say Privateer Press or Mantic or heck even Reaper and most people won't have a clue even with hints.
Miniature wargames is a very niche hobby; we don't get adverts during sports games or on the TV; many urban areas only just manage to hold out one small shop and then its often shared with magic the gathering and multiple other games. Without GW I think the hobby would, in the long term, honestly suffer.
And of course that's without realising that the IP side of this legal challenge would kill most other fantasy games off as well. Pretty much anything with an orc or post-Lord of the Rings. Sci-fi games would also be seriously crippled. We might get lucky and all hold out for cuthulu (its at least copyright expired); but honestly if this ever seriously made it to court and was won then it would only harm the market.
The guy's written a long rant that mostly doesn't make any legal or normal sense. It's getting a bit of attention but give it a week or less and it will go away unless the guy pushing it has some deep pockets to keep it in the lime light (and honestly it sounds like if he's got 2 failed and one failing company and has to do resculpts to stay afloat - chances are he's not got those deep pockets).
I agree, if he did somehow win and got everything he is asking for, GW would fold and the games would die off. Why? Because he wants to take control of all the IP GW currently has in order to make it all public domain within 10 years. This, not only obviously affects GWs hold over the model creation, but suddenly the setting, lore and the games themselves. Suddenly anyone can create a new faction from nowhere with whatever rules they would want and create the models for them. People would be able to write, or re-write, new books and things would expand in a way that will truly diminish what we currently have, and what is being worked on.
Sure, it could also lead to a lot of cool things, especially in regards to movies etc, but the state of the game and the setting would no longer be controlled.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note to add - As per their financial statement, the cost of "product and supply" for the year to May 2017 was one of their smallest expenses at £2.9 million.
That said, the running costs total £83 million for the year.
Oh absolutely, being public domain has just ruined Sherlock Holmes etc
This guy's a loon, and I'm not actively hoping for GW to die or anything, but this perception people have internalised that GW *is* the hobby and that us plebs can't be trusted with it is just...odd.
You know what happens to bad products based on public domain IP? Nobody buys in to them and they fade away into the ether, fated only to provide fodder for hard-up geeky clickbait websites that need a a new listicle. As for their role in hobby recruitment, eh, that might have been true 15+ years ago, but most of the "new blood" that I've met in recent years arrived via the internet and a few have never even been to a GW store. The stores used to provide for a combination of high-visibility advertising on high streets drawing new walk-in customers, and a place to "hook" folk who'd been drawn in via word of mouth(typically a peer or older sibling), then the company began "reforming" the stores; loads of them moved away to more isolated but cheaper locations, they reduced staff levels and opening hours, they limited play space and what games could be played on store tables etc, all impacted their ability to do either aforementioned job. Now the internet is a proper thing, they're even less important - social media means it's not just immediate peers or relations exposing people to wargaming, it's whole online social groups, and the internet allows you to find all the advice on collecting, modelling, painting, gaming etc you could ever need, places to buy product, and a way to locate other players all without once setting foot in a GW. Not to mention the American scene rather puts the lie to the idea a network of GW-brand stores are necessary or particularly effective at fuelling the hobby's growth, since most stores over there are independent and carry wide ranges.
In the 90's, GW did a lot for the hobby's spread. Maybe you could even successfully argue the combination of their physical stores and LotR license helped grow the community in the mid oughts. These days though? If they went away there would be a period of adjustment, some short-term fragmentation, but I highly doubt it would somehow be the end of sci-fantasy wargaming or even that it would ruin & destroy GW's own IPs.
Apparently the guy won a case vs. Wizards of the Coast?
"At high level, is this called a "bathtub case". The kitchen sink wasn't big enough so the plaintiff through the bathtub at them."
And damn... why does that website always do nothing but lag out, spam me with ads or re-direct me to other pages randomly while trying to entertain myself with some of the articles?
apparently the court contacted him and told him he did it wrong too so unless he follows up with a more err.. sane filing this will almsot certainly be dumped. course if this goes to court GW could always go after him for damages caused by his recasting.
So I asked a senior federal legal brain about this, linking the complaint.
He responded.
Oh dear God what hilarity! The plaintiff should get hit with sanctions from the court for frivolous litigation. The complaint is so facially defective; I find it very difficult to believe the plaintiff is an LLM. I’m not sure if this absurd complaint can give rise to a counterclaim for defamation, my hunch is no, but it would actually require research and, in the case of this hot garbage, might even prove worthwhile. The plaintiff sounds more than a little unhinged. Besides anything else, does he think he is a government? Individual citizens can’t and don’t have legal causes of action for alleged criminal acts of others. He might have a civil cause of action for contract breach and maybe, maybe tortious interference with his business(es), but he failed to state a claim upon which relief could be granted. A judge would dismiss this in a heartbeat (after privately laughing, a LOT, at it). What hubris… An LLM (in case you didn’t know that’s a PhD of law… one step up from the regular Juris Doctor degree) indeed, or so he alleged. I have never heard of a lawyer asserting their degree in anything, except for the very few specialties which require an LLM (such as high level tax law), this guy sounds like a total blowhard. That pleading was SO badly written that it made me think that no lawyer could really be that bad, again, it entirely screams for sanctions for frivolous litigation.
"David Moore is a 20 year watchdog of the table top industry, and is a Retired Disabled Veteran with an LLM in Law, and has won attribution previously against Wizards of the Coast."
20 year watchdog... I actually spit out my soda when I read that. I've thus far been unable to uncover any evidence of his multi-decade watchdog activities. I'm also unclear as to how being retired, disabled or a veteran is relevant. I imagine Rob B/David M are trying to appeal to some sort of misguided hero worship?
Also... he's known locally as "Reverend Magic". Below are some interesting details about his dealings with WotC.
Kriswall wrote: "David Moore is a 20 year watchdog of the tinfoil hat industry, and is a Retired Nutcase with an LLM in his Alphabetti Spaghetti, and has won acclaim online for 'Nuttiest Law Suit Yet, 2017"
20 year watchdog... I actually spit out my soda when I read that. I've thus far been unable to uncover any evidence of his multi-decade watchdog activities. I'm also unclear as to how being retired, disabled or a veteran is relevant. I imagine Rob B/David M are trying to appeal to some sort of misguided hero worship?
Also... he's known locally as "Reverend Magic". Below are some interesting details about his dealings with WotC.
However cooky this may be, it's still interesting news. You're going to blame Spikeybits for reporting it?
There are two ways to report this:
The accurate one: " A bunch of people who can't even write a subpoena have decided to sue GW for a ridiculous amount of money with zero actual basis and tons of childish bashing of their prior business partner".
The Spikey Bits one: "GW is being sued for $62 million Dolla".
One of them gives you the impression that something relevant is going on, the other reports the truth even if it's entirely uninteresting.
I heard they amending part of the complaint, Something about using the colors BLue, Yellow, and Red. Its not fair to Fans who like Rainbow Bright, and hence stealing even more IP from other creators!!
However cooky this may be, it's still interesting news. You're going to blame Spikeybits for reporting it?
There are two ways to report this:
The accurate one: " A bunch of people who can't even write a subpoena have decided to sue GW for a ridiculous amount of money with zero actual basis and tons of childish bashing of their prior business partner".
The Spikey Bits one: "GW is being sued for $62 million Dolla".
One of them gives you the impression that something relevant is going on, the other reports the truth even if it's entirely uninteresting.
Spikey bits is the top form of click bate and must need that ad cash bad with how they push this
However cooky this may be, it's still interesting news. You're going to blame Spikeybits for reporting it?
Spikeybits is the worst gaming related website on the Internet. Rob regularly makes up rumours to get attention. This is just another example of that. He is attempting to give this suit (which has not even been filed correctly) legitimacy it does not deserve.
Plus, it left me with the strong impression that he has just skimmed hastily across the documents before sitting down to record the video and, to me, seemed like reporting the whole thing on the go. It's not the kind of report I'd like on a topic like that...
Chikout wrote: Spikeybits is the worst gaming related website on the Internet. Rob regularly makes up rumours to get attention. This is just another example of that. He is attempting to give this suit (which has not even been filed correctly) legitimacy it does not deserve.
A c'mon now. Taco Bell worked hard for that title. Don't grab it from them so hastily!
Chikout wrote: Spikeybits is the worst gaming related website on the Internet. Rob regularly makes up rumours to get attention. This is just another example of that. He is attempting to give this suit (which has not even been filed correctly) legitimacy it does not deserve.
A c'mon now. Taco Bell worked hard for that title. Don't grab it from them so hastily!
At least Taco Bell lets you eat its product before the gak starts being sprayed.
Anyone who thinks this legal case has merit is probably too stupid to be entrusted with anything more sophisticated than a pre-peeled boiled egg.
Oh, and what do you know- it's Spikey Bits pushing it. If I had one turd and I had to choose between throwing it at OneMindSyndicate and Spikey Bits, I'd squeeze that turd in my fist and slap all of them about the face and neck for an afternoon.
Spikeybits has about as much credibility as a Bill Cosby cocktail and Casey Anthony's parenting advice.
I was genuinely interested until I read the OP. It's written like childish rubbish, an online rant not a serious legal claim. There's a few points that could be of merit but it's mostly just tosh.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I was genuinely interested until I read the OP. It's written like childish rubbish, an online rant not a serious legal claim. There's a few points that could be of merit but it's mostly just tosh.
It's certainly one or two logical missteps away from claiming that GW is the Illuminati and want to destroy the world. And where it's not, it's just someone being an assmad whiner because he's not selling product.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Anyone who thinks this legal case has merit is probably too stupid to be entrusted with anything more sophisticated than a pre-peeled boiled egg.
Oh, and what do you know- it's Spikey Bits pushing it. If I had one turd and I had to choose between throwing it at OneMindSyndicate and Spikey Bits, I'd squeeze that turd in my fist and slap all of them about the face and neck for an afternoon.
Spikeybits has about as much credibility as a Bill Cosby cocktail and Casey Anthony's parenting advice.
The end made me lol I love it the world needs more good trusted YouTube hobby people
However cooky this may be, it's still interesting news. You're going to blame Spikeybits for reporting it?
100% - because of the way he chose to do so. He did not do any research, he did not contact anyone in the legal profession for an expert opinion, etc. Effectively he's decided to give voice to this because he has his own issues with GW - he has no editorial process and his bias is visible. He's not just reporting the news with this - he's giving this a platform.
Didn't they get the brunt of GW's shouting when they came after fansites like Dakka?
No direct linking and no leaks to be posted, or some-such. It was around 3 years ago IIRC.
To be fair, I don't blame spikeybits for reporting on this news, its enough to grasp our attention so we are aware of what is currently going on. Games Workshop from what I'm aware hasn't already made a statement on this issue (send me a link if they have).
I feel like this point has already been brought up before but if this guy had two of his stores go down the drain then isn't it his fault for not diversifying among his products?
Don't stores make enough money alone from selling MTG, DnD, X-wing, Comic books, and other role-playing franchises?
I'm waiting to hear how it is all a hoax/bait and SpikeyBIts took it all. Hook, line and sinker.
While I did watch the video, I quit when I saw a line in the supposed doc that references GW's "EVIL" behavior. You don't ask a court to accept claims of evil and expect to not get sanctioned.
Yeah, there is an unnatural amount of hate being tossed this guys way.
GWs business practices have frequently been on the cut throat side of things.
The Chapter House case brought to light lots of interesting tidbits about Clueless GW was about the legality of their copywright and trademark legality was. Their business practices could be in equally gray territory.
I think we're much better off discussing the case/actions/implications rather than offering up our opinions on whichever person or website "broke" the story.
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: To be fair, I don't blame spikeybits for reporting on this news, its enough to grasp our attention so we are aware of what is currently going on. Games Workshop from what I'm aware hasn't already made a statement on this issue (send me a link if they have).
I feel like this point has already been brought up before but if this guy had two of his stores go down the drain then isn't it his fault for not diversifying among his products?
Don't stores make enough money alone from selling MTG, DnD, X-wing, Comic books, and other role-playing franchises?
Also, what's up with everyone being salty today?
The guy was a big MtG guy but someone posted he sued them also no idea if that was before or after his stores died
adamsouza wrote: Yeah, there is an unnatural amount of hate being tossed this guys way.
GWs business practices have frequently been on the cut throat side of things.
The Chapter House case brought to light lots of interesting tidbits about Clueless GW was about the legality of their copywright and trademark legality was. Their business practices could be in equally gray territory.
Corporations are, by law, required to act effectively as sociopaths to drive the best possible dividend for their share holders. Being cut throat is what it means to be a corporate, publicly traded entity. Also I don't think a civil suit can allege criminal complaints nor does the court consider 'recruiting a cult of thralls' a valid basis for a plea. I'm not mad that someone is suing GW - I'm mad that this guy's absolute lunacy is being given the light of the day - we're not talking about a well crafted case that makes legitimate accusations with grounds for action here. I think anyone has a right to be angry about this subject because it is a load of BS and isn't credible in any capacity.
Doc, the thing about this hobby is that it is best broken down like this: You have ten people in a room that are into 40k.
Three of them enjoy the game, the hobby, and are flat-out great people to play with.
Two of them are min/maxing powergamers that don't have any strategy at all, they just use deathstars and spam.
The other five are whining about the rules, the models, the other players, the armies other people play, and everything.
This hobby is 50% whining. That means at least half of the 'big names' that talk about this hobby are going to use their platform to piss and moan.
So.. judging from your post whining about the whiners, you're firmly in that 50% bracket, right? It is entirely plausible (not just possible) to be a flat out great person to play with and yet be unhappy about the current state of 40k or GW's corporate mindset driven actions. If you're not aware of that, I'll have to assume you skipped out on 6th/7th editions.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: So I asked a senior federal legal brain about this, linking the complaint.
He responded.
Oh dear God what hilarity! The plaintiff should get hit with sanctions from the court for frivolous litigation. The complaint is so facially defective; I find it very difficult to believe the plaintiff is an LLM. I’m not sure if this absurd complaint can give rise to a counterclaim for defamation, my hunch is no, but it would actually require research and, in the case of this hot garbage, might even prove worthwhile. The plaintiff sounds more than a little unhinged. Besides anything else, does he think he is a government? Individual citizens can’t and don’t have legal causes of action for alleged criminal acts of others. He might have a civil cause of action for contract breach and maybe, maybe tortious interference with his business(es), but he failed to state a claim upon which relief could be granted. A judge would dismiss this in a heartbeat (after privately laughing, a LOT, at it). What hubris… An LLM (in case you didn’t know that’s a PhD of law… one step up from the regular Juris Doctor degree) indeed, or so he alleged. I have never heard of a lawyer asserting their degree in anything, except for the very few specialties which require an LLM (such as high level tax law), this guy sounds like a total blowhard. That pleading was SO badly written that it made me think that no lawyer could really be that bad, again, it entirely screams for sanctions for frivolous litigation.
Basically what this comes down to is another 'Florida Man' story.
Crazy and a bit funny, but also makes you wonder about the state of mental health.
One of the funniest lawsuits I've read in a while. Thank you Florida Man for providing those of us with the odd hobby of reading bad lawsuits some fun.
Daemonhost Cherubael wrote: To be fair, I don't blame spikeybits for reporting on this news, its enough to grasp our attention so we are aware of what is currently going on. Games Workshop from what I'm aware hasn't already made a statement on this issue (send me a link if they have).
I feel like this point has already been brought up before but if this guy had two of his stores go down the drain then isn't it his fault for not diversifying among his products?
Don't stores make enough money alone from selling MTG, DnD, X-wing, Comic books, and other role-playing franchises?
Also, what's up with everyone being salty today?
The guy was a big MtG guy but someone posted he sued them also no idea if that was before or after his stores died
Apparently WotC granted him permission to make a poster that showed all the cards, but the quality of the giant poster was so good WotC revoked the permission to avoid counterfeit cards being made from the poster. Hence, the lawsuit (he won). Side note - him and all his close buddies and loyal gamer buddies received the majority of the posters and he sold and profited from the rest.
So.. judging from your post whining about the whiners, you're firmly in that 50% bracket, right? It is entirely plausible (not just possible) to be a flat out great person to play with and yet be unhappy about the current state of 40k or GW's corporate mindset driven actions. If you're not aware of that, I'll have to assume you skipped out on 6th/7th editions.
There's a difference between 'whining' and 'pointing out the obvious'. If you're not aware of that, you must have been focused too much on being a snarky forum troll and not enough on 'using common sense'. It's okay, it was a clever comeback and I expect some degree of reaction from the crybaby 'BAWWW IT CHANGED' crowd.
If you don't like how it is, complain to the company or offer alternatives. Complaining on a fansite is just a bleat for attention, and that's a trait in children that had poor parenting- the 'cry/reward' mentality that's instilled from not telling the child 'no'.
I enjoy 8th edition. I enjoyed 7th edition.
Whiny neckbeards kept me away from this hobby from about 4th-6th, so there's that. I didn't stick around crying for attention. I just did other things.
BigDaddio wrote: I'm thinking the reason we have yet to hear a response from GW is because they can't breathe for laughing so hard.
It is so complicated, and so funny, and laughable! Why? Read below -
"With international lawsuits you have to serve the person you are suing. There's a Central Authority that receives, reviews, and executes requests from foreign courts for carrying out service of process. Most countries that are signatories to the Hague Service Convention will accept these requests for service that are signed by the lawyer for the plaintiff (claimant). Two exceptions are the UK and Israel.
On top of that, the claimant needs to obtain evidence located in that foreign country, that party (claimant) will usually need to make a request of the local court for it (the court) to issue a Letter of Request pursuant to the Hague Evidence Convention. Under the HEC, each member state is required to designate a Central Authority to receive, review, and carry out incoming requests to obtain evidence from persons (or other entities) located in the receiving country. [[u]b]Two exceptions are the UK and Israel.[/b]
Many countries take the view that American concepts of long-arm jurisdiction are too broad, and courts of such countries will not recognize judgments from American courts based on the exercise of American long-arm jurisdiction. Looking at the issue from the non-American perspective, courts in some countries exercise jurisdiction based upon principles that American courts would consider unfair and repugnant to American law. For example, in some countries, such as England and Israel, will rarely recognize judgments from American courts."
Orlanth wrote: ...... got me at 110% being used as a term in the formal wording in a legal challenge.
I've read through it.
It's like someone who sits around watching Judge Judy all day just up and decided to draft their own legal papers.
Moral of the story: You ALWAYS need a lawyer.
The guy suing claims to have an LLM and thus supposedly is/was a lawyer at some point.
given he's also supposeidvly a reverand I suspect his LLM, assuming he's not outright lying about his credentials. comes from some "Christian diploma mill" type university
IFC_Casting wrote: Someone should bring to Games Workshops attention that he's recasting for commercial sale.
They already know. The thing he submitted says, paraphrased, that he lost his retailer discount and distributors were told not to sell to him because he was allegedly counterfeiting models. He disputes the claim.
IFC_Casting wrote: Someone should bring to Games Workshops attention that he's recasting for commercial sale.
They already know. The thing he submitted says, paraphrased, that he lost his retailer discount and distributors were told not to sell to him because he was allegedly counterfeiting models. He disputes the claim.
Perhaps GW should counter sue and let him dispute that claim in court
So.. judging from your post whining about the whiners, you're firmly in that 50% bracket, right? It is entirely plausible (not just possible) to be a flat out great person to play with and yet be unhappy about the current state of 40k or GW's corporate mindset driven actions. If you're not aware of that, I'll have to assume you skipped out on 6th/7th editions.
There's a difference between 'whining' and 'pointing out the obvious'. If you're not aware of that, you must have been focused too much on being a snarky forum troll and not enough on 'using common sense'. It's okay, it was a clever comeback and I expect some degree of reaction from the crybaby 'BAWWW IT CHANGED' crowd.
If you don't like how it is, complain to the company or offer alternatives. Complaining on a fansite is just a bleat for attention, and that's a trait in children that had poor parenting- the 'cry/reward' mentality that's instilled from not telling the child 'no'.
I enjoy 8th edition. I enjoyed 7th edition.
Whiny neckbeards kept me away from this hobby from about 4th-6th, so there's that. I didn't stick around crying for attention. I just did other things.
So after writing about whiners you're whining about the 'neckbeards' who kept you away from 4th-6th edition. Stay classy.
I do like the pseudo psycho analysis about other people's parenting though, that one always makes me chuckle.
I have openly disliked GW's business practices since about 2008/2009 or so. I hate the new miniatures, I strongly dislike the new fluff, I loathed their regional sales embargo..... but I love Forgeworld models, the Horus Heresy game and the early Heresy novels....
Does this mean I am bleating for attention? If I don't agree with you and your views I am " doing it wrong?". I see you joined Dakka sometime this year, maybe you should go back to your old forum if you dislike Dakka so much?
IFC_Casting wrote: Someone should bring to Games Workshops attention that he's recasting for commercial sale.
They already know. The thing he submitted says, paraphrased, that he lost his retailer discount and distributors were told not to sell to him because he was allegedly counterfeiting models. He disputes the claim.
One of the members here was offered a recast by him on eBay of the limited captain centos model, so there's proof available to GW if they want to sue him.
Azazelx wrote: The guy's got some real ...interesting history if you do some google reading following that "David Moore sifulama" stuff posted earlier...
Hah! If he really was a psychic like he claims then he wouldn't of ever thought he could win this case.
Someone earlier said without snark that this guy appears to probably have some serious mental health issues. I think this is also quite feasable. I've had a look at that "modelgirl" stuff now as well, and it's really fething weird...
Reading the ebay feedback report its either someone with mental issues or someone who has twigged that if you get aggressive with people when they are critical of you you can actually get a lot of people to back down. It's a pressure tactic which works because it comes out of the blue and people don't expect it; furthermore being mindlessly single-minded and always on the dominant/attack wears people down and makes them more likely to give in/give up.
This can work rather well when its a one-on-one situation. However when you try to upgrade it to company on company it tends to fall flat if the company you go after happens to be bigger than a one or two person operation; and if they actually have legal advice and if there's serious money on the table.
It's all about scale and chances are this person might well have tried this kind of tactic in the past and had just the threat of going to court be enough to get some to back down. However going after a bigger company with such a legal claim its not going to work. Essentially bullies like this don't work on the idea of not letting the other person call their bluff as often as not they can't actually make good on their threats (or if they can the threat is very minimal).
Agreed about pressure and aggression, even moreso when people think the seller is a pretty girl doing on behalf of a church (check the eBay profile, etc)
There's also a lot of stuff in the "psychic" angle as well. Stuff about the MTG "poster", selling recasts as originals and so, so much more.
It might not be mental health issues but a sort of sociopathic scammer. Maybe a little from column A and a little from column B...
Certainly all of his business names (excepting modelgirl) being rips of/inspired by other IPs is entertaining. I don't know much about Rob Baer or Spikybitz (I watched a couple videos recently and was turned off) but if he's someone who chooses to align himself with this sort of guy with clearly biased and dodgy writeups about "industry watchdogs" or whatever the feth it was, then I'm going to give him a hell of a wide berth as well.
Again you've got someone who is inclined to dodgy or outright illegal/immoral activities preying on gamers. It seems that this guy has been better at covering his tracks/closingup and operating. However you've still got that distinct dodgy edge and some clear signs that he's using methods to twist things to his advantage (female named accounts; charity links; etc..).
As for Spiky I think he's mostly just doing what most/many news sites do today - stiring the drama pot for hits.
Again you've got someone who is inclined to dodgy or outright illegal/immoral activities preying on gamers. It seems that this guy has been better at covering his tracks/closingup and operating. However you've still got that distinct dodgy edge and some clear signs that he's using methods to twist things to his advantage (female named accounts; charity links; etc..).
As for Spiky I think he's mostly just doing what most/many news sites do today - stiring the drama pot for hits.
Just a note, it was never an actual charity, he just named one of his LLCs with the word "charity" in the name. (This was part of the reason WotC revoked him making card posters...). He has a habit of working with a game company, then turns around and sues them when he fails to sell the product. He's a habitual lawsuit filer, and there's a really old slip-n-fall case he was involved with too.
So.. judging from your post whining about the whiners, you're firmly in that 50% bracket, right? It is entirely plausible (not just possible) to be a flat out great person to play with and yet be unhappy about the current state of 40k or GW's corporate mindset driven actions. If you're not aware of that, I'll have to assume you skipped out on 6th/7th editions.
There's a difference between 'whining' and 'pointing out the obvious'. If you're not aware of that, you must have been focused too much on being a snarky forum troll and not enough on 'using common sense'. It's okay, it was a clever comeback and I expect some degree of reaction from the crybaby 'BAWWW IT CHANGED' crowd.
If you don't like how it is, complain to the company or offer alternatives. Complaining on a fansite is just a bleat for attention, and that's a trait in children that had poor parenting- the 'cry/reward' mentality that's instilled from not telling the child 'no'.
I enjoy 8th edition. I enjoyed 7th edition.
Whiny neckbeards kept me away from this hobby from about 4th-6th, so there's that. I didn't stick around crying for attention. I just did other things.
So after writing about whiners you're whining about the 'neckbeards' who kept you away from 4th-6th edition. Stay classy.
I do like the pseudo psycho analysis about other people's parenting though, that one always makes me chuckle.
I have openly disliked GW's business practices since about 2008/2009 or so. I hate the new miniatures, I strongly dislike the new fluff, I loathed their regional sales embargo..... but I love Forgeworld models, the Horus Heresy game and the early Heresy novels....
Does this mean I am bleating for attention? If I don't agree with you and your views I am " doing it wrong?". I see you joined Dakka sometime this year, maybe you should go back to your old forum if you dislike Dakka so much?
Don't be ridiculous. In his preferred false equivalency, it just means you're a horrible person and a no fun to play against bane of the hobby because you expressed dislike regarding things GW has done. Get it right, Fab.
Orlanth wrote: ...... got me at 110% being used as a term in the formal wording in a legal challenge.
I've read through it.
It's like someone who sits around watching Judge Judy all day just up and decided to draft their own legal papers.
Moral of the story: You ALWAYS need a lawyer.
The guy suing claims to have an LLM and thus supposedly is/was a lawyer at some point.
Not always. A good chunk of people with legal academic degrees never even sit for the bar exam. Also, there is no oversight for awarding degrees. I can award anybody I like an LLM from the Polonius College of Law. Plenty of cranks have "Degrees" from diploma mills.
Not always. A good chunk of people with legal academic degrees never even sit for the bar exam. Also, there is no oversight for awarding degrees. I can award anybody I like an LLM from the Polonius College of Law. Plenty of cranks have "Degrees" from diploma mills.
In my experience, the worst of them get their degrees from brand-name universities, places like Cornell and NYU.
The pressure to pass paying customers is ubiquitous,
and the end result is that a brand name degree affords the holder prima facie regard when it is all the more undeserved.
Frankly, it doesn't matter where you go for a degree, it matters only what you do there and after.
This guy could have gotten his degree from Columbia, and still been a "crank".
Lots of good people who work hard can't get into brand name schools, and they end up better informed and better at their jobs than others who do.
Mostly, people seem to go to big name schools because they have the money and want to meet other people who have the money.
That or scholarships and of course brand name recognition.
I could have gotten into most anywhere, but chose a top-50 school instead of a top 10 or 20 for a lot of reasons.
Now, i can hardly sit in the same room with a lot of people who came out of brand name places,
as if Harvard makes them know more simply because their diplomas say "Harvard".
Anyways, just to be fair to hard working people with degrees from lesser-known schools, that's all.
Let's see where this goes. While there appears to be some butthurt in the papers, he makes several legitimate points from what I can see here.
I think we can all agree that GW's business itself has been pretty dodgy on occasion, and while their website does say that they pretty much accept any return, it's bs, as I can attest from experience, miscasts will not be refunded if, between the time you buy it and the time you get it, it becomes OOP or was in any way a limited release..
And, for those pish poshing the 50k% markup, and that GW has factories someplace, I'll point out that every single GW product is now marked 'made in China' from what I could tell perusing my local store. Pointing to a local example, you can import all the Russian Steel you like as long as it touches a US rolling mill. Also, I took the time to run some of this past a pal of mine who owns a factory in New York, and he said he could have the sprues for a single GW mini does for about 10 cents. So, if they're getting them in China for 3, that pans out.
BaronIveagh wrote: Let's see where this goes. While there appears to be some butthurt in the papers, he makes several legitimate points from what I can see here.
I think we can all agree that GW's business itself has been pretty dodgy on occasion, and while their website does say that they pretty much accept any return, it's bs, as I can attest from experience, miscasts will not be refunded if, between the time you buy it and the time you get it, it becomes OOP or was in any way a limited release..
And, for those pish poshing the 50k% markup, and that GW has factories someplace, I'll point out that every single GW product is now marked 'made in China' from what I could tell perusing my local store. Pointing to a local example, you can import all the Russian Steel you like as long as it touches a US rolling mill. Also, I took the time to run some of this past a pal of mine who owns a factory in New York, and he said he could have the sprues for a single GW mini does for about 10 cents. So, if they're getting them in China for 3, that pans out.
I'm colour-blind.
On topic it does annoy me when people equate the cost of raw materials with the cost of a product. The wages of the staff designing and manufacturing the product is by far the biggest cost.
I'm colour-blind.
On topic it does annoy me when people equate the cost of raw materials with the cost of a product. The wages of the staff designing and manufacturing the product is by far the biggest cost.
Well, that depends on what you're making the product out of
Indeed not only that but there's the continued cost of production and upkeep of the machines and infrastructure. If we were only paw the RAW material cost of most of what we buy the prices would be tiny compared to what they are. There are very few if any companies that can run for any length of time charging profit only on the material costs of their product. You've got to factor in staff wages and design and shipping and such.
As for returns and refunds this seems to vary abroad. In the UKGW support is very very good and generally deals with problems very quickly without any hassle.
Bookwrack wrote: "I got my degree from PClaw. You don't dare question a lawyer whose alma mater could be read as Power Claw!"
I wish I had such finely equipped lawyers at my job, we'd get stuff done.
So to summarise:
This guy comes across as crazy and pretends to be a woman for his dodgy ebay store, and Spikey Bits are taking the turd he's dropped and smearing it all over their face going 'Look at me! Look at me! I'm relevant!'
I can't say I've ever received a refund for GW (thought I've never specifically requested money back), but any time I've had a complaint about a product, they've sent a replacement. Items GW has replaced include a missing shieldvane from a Necron Tomb Blad sprue, Slaughterpriest model from the first monthly WD issue (Yeah. The one that was free. GW seriously sent me a free model that I didn't pay for in the first place), the griff hound card for Silver Tower, and an entire 8th edition rulebook (the one I bought had a misprint on 8 pages). I offered to return the defective book, but GW told me to keep it. Say what you want about GW, but their customer service is really good, at least in the US.
BaronIveagh wrote: Let's see where this goes. While there appears to be some butthurt in the papers, he makes several legitimate points from what I can see here.
I think we can all agree that GW's business itself has been pretty dodgy on occasion, and while their website does say that they pretty much accept any return, it's bs, as I can attest from experience, miscasts will not be refunded if, between the time you buy it and the time you get it, it becomes OOP or was in any way a limited release..
And, for those pish poshing the 50k% markup, and that GW has factories someplace, I'll point out that every single GW product is now marked 'made in China' from what I could tell perusing my local store. Pointing to a local example, you can import all the Russian Steel you like as long as it touches a US rolling mill. Also, I took the time to run some of this past a pal of mine who owns a factory in New York, and he said he could have the sprues for a single GW mini does for about 10 cents. So, if they're getting them in China for 3, that pans out.
"HOY!, I represents Gitsquisha, Deffthumper, and Krumpinator, LLC!"
Not sure you checked very carefully. Silver tower, the gyro bomber and the skyfires I just bought all have the same label.
The pretty picture is worthless thanks to UK law or what there is of it anyway.
"In addition to origin marking being voluntary, there are no detailed or prescriptive rules for working out the origin of a product. The nearest the law comes to prescribing rules is section 36 of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 which states ‘goods shall be deemed to have been manufactured or produced in the country in which they last underwent a treatment or process resulting in a substantial change’. However the status and effect of this provision is unclear since most of the other provisions of the Act have been repealed (including the offences for breaching section 36) and there are no decided cases on the meaning of ‘substantial’."
So basicly the model is designed in the UK, manufactured in China and boxed I the UK with instructions and bases made in the UK and there covered.
Not that I think GW are doing the as they clearly Mark the products as made in China and made in the UK although the majority of kits do not say either.
Last rumour I heard has FW moving some of there production to China this was followed by all kits bigger than a Land Raider going to 11+ days minimum to order so who knows.
Orlanth wrote: ...... got me at 110% being used as a term in the formal wording in a legal challenge.
I've read through it.
It's like someone who sits around watching Judge Judy all day just up and decided to draft their own legal papers.
Moral of the story: You ALWAYS need a lawyer.
The guy suing claims to have an LLM and thus supposedly is/was a lawyer at some point.
Not always. A good chunk of people with legal academic degrees never even sit for the bar exam. Also, there is no oversight for awarding degrees. I can award anybody I like an LLM from the Polonius College of Law. Plenty of cranks have "Degrees" from diploma mills.
Yes, hence the words "claims" and "supposedly".
Course, this being Dakka, I should have just said "Allegedly."
I'm pretty sure it's normal in the legal world to ask for everything you possibly could up front so that by the time you're essentially haggled down through the proceedings you still come out on top. I'm not a lawyer, though.
Not always. A good chunk of people with legal academic degrees never even sit for the bar exam. Also, there is no oversight for awarding degrees. I can award anybody I like an LLM from the Polonius College of Law. Plenty of cranks have "Degrees" from diploma mills.
In my experience, the worst of them get their degrees from brand-name universities, places like Cornell and NYU.
The pressure to pass paying customers is ubiquitous,
and the end result is that a brand name degree affords the holder prima facie regard when it is all the more undeserved.
Frankly, it doesn't matter where you go for a degree, it matters only what you do there and after.
This guy could have gotten his degree from Columbia, and still been a "crank".
Lots of good people who work hard can't get into brand name schools, and they end up better informed and better at their jobs than others who do.
Mostly, people seem to go to big name schools because they have the money and want to meet other people who have the money.
That or scholarships and of course brand name recognition.
I could have gotten into most anywhere, but chose a top-50 school instead of a top 10 or 20 for a lot of reasons.
Now, i can hardly sit in the same room with a lot of people who came out of brand name places,
as if Harvard makes them know more simply because their diplomas say "Harvard".
Anyways, just to be fair to hard working people with degrees from lesser-known schools, that's all.
As far as I know - GW on contrary pushed back their manufacture to UK - it was something to do with leakage of a product (not just a photo) - they can't control the production in China.
Also that is the reason as they miss a whole range of products - UK factories work on limits - so they expanding it (check up the numbers for investments) and emplys the whole range of moulding machine operator/workers etc.
So they are clearly take back factories to UK (also - maybe the weaker Pound made this transition faster, as it become profitable to produce things inside country)
I'm colour-blind.
On topic it does annoy me when people equate the cost of raw materials with the cost of a product. The wages of the staff designing and manufacturing the product is by far the biggest cost.
I'll have to relate the story of the color blind IT tech and the color coded punchdown block sometime.
Having had some experience with exactly that sort of thing working with a factory owner looking to improve his automated and IT infrastructure, I can say that the more product you move, the more diluted those costs are, whereas material is constant. Past a certain volume (screwdrivers and tank pins in my case) those costs you mention become nearly negligible per item. While his screwdrivers might sell for $10 his actual costs were something like $2.
I know they were still UK based three or so years ago, because I applied for a job operating the molds (and yes, I totally planned to plunder miscast models. There may be a reason I wasn't hired...) but I dunno if they still are. I know the books and paints got outsourced, at least for a while.
Jon Garrett wrote: I know they were still UK based three or so years ago, because I applied for a job operating the molds (and yes, I totally planned to plunder miscast models. There may be a reason I wasn't hired...) but I dunno if they still are. I know the books and paints got outsourced, at least for a while.
Of course you didn't get hired, GW doesn't toss miscasts, they get pride of place right on the shelf under the premium Finecast label!
I agree with the majority here about how GW can mark up 50,000 percent do to that being their right. Civil laws do let you to sue for not just yourself, but in the way that makes the very notion no longer profitable, so he can sue for violating others intellectual property, however from that article we don't really see this. Lots of authors, manufactures, retailers, illustrators, etc have sold stuff that look like ALIENS and from the original books that contained space marines, so I don't see that part of the suit accomplishing much.
The big thing that GW has been doing but is in a weird grey area since not every country has the same laws is the American anti trust laws they are violating. If you don't believe GW is look up the hundreds of pages in anti trust laws and you'll see their is violations here. People and responses are bringing up the mattresses, however GW has tried numerous times to stop creation and retail of similar to their products which allows the trust laws to work. If they did not it would work like the manufacture laws allow the manufacturer to force a retailer to sell their stuff at a certain price, but if there isn't competition aka GW is forcing other companies to not make replicas then the anti trust laws wouldn't come into affect. You can say there are lots of alternate miniature wargames, so the competition does exist, however GW keeps claiming intellectual property to prevent any miniature game to being similar to theirs. This can be argued in itself that it limits the competition in the market, but they are making demands limiting distribution which makes it fall under the anti trust law zones.
I'm not saying GW should win or not win. I don't have a mastery of all the anti trust and monopoly laws along with knowledge about how it affects companies in other countries, but the guy does have enough of a legitimate claim to allow his attempt to sue,
The big thing that GW has been doing but is in a weird grey area since not every country has the same laws is the American trust laws they are violating. If you don't believe GW is look up the hundreds of pages in trust laws and you'll see their is violations here. People and responses are bringing up the mattresses, however GW has tried numerous times to stop creation and retail of similar to their products which allows the trust laws to work. If they did not it would work like the manufacture laws allow the manufacturer to force a retailer to sell their stuff at a certain price, but if there isn't competition aka GW is forcing other companies to not make replicas then the trust laws wouldn't come into affect. You can say there are lots of alternate miniature wargames, so the competition does exist, however GW keeps claiming intellectual property to prevent any miniature game to being similar to theirs. This can be argued in itself that it limits the competition in the market, but they are making demands limiting distribution which makes it fall under the trust law zones.
WTF?!? "American trust laws"? You mean anti-trust laws, which are very different from IP laws. The latter is what GW sued Chapterhouse and such for. GW has a monopoly on 40K because the US and other governments give them that monopoly through IP laws. No one has a right to copy or append onto other people's IP. And even if Chapterhouse was legally OK to make accessory parts for GW's models (or alternate models), we all know that what they were doing was intellectually dishonest. They and most of the East European resin manufacturers are the ones operating in the grey area by riding GW's coat tails but not compensating them for doing so. Why don't they make minis for their own setting. Because that's not what people want, another science fantasy game. 40K isn't an industry any more than Disney is. They have IP and they are ready to protect it.
I agree with everything you said. When I said trust laws it was obvious I was talking about anti trust laws. That's like me talking about murder laws and thinking Im talking about laws helping out murder. I'm baffled why you even wrote a response since you didn't disagree with anything I wrote here just got confused on me using the words trust laws. Sorry I changed the words to anti trust laws just so you aren't confused anymore.
Jon Garrett wrote: I know they were still UK based three or so years ago, because I applied for a job operating the molds (and yes, I totally planned to plunder miscast models. There may be a reason I wasn't hired...) but I dunno if they still are. I know the books and paints got outsourced, at least for a while.
Printing in the UK is expensive, first AFAIK Games Workshop do not wn a press, also paper is expensive in the UK. Many UK publishers print in the far east and import the bulk of their stock, and most heavy cardstock comes from the far east. Games Workshop follow hat trend, but credit where credit is due, they manufacture most of their stock in the UK rather than outsource it all unlike many of their competitors.
In my experience, the worst of them get their degrees from brand-name universities, places like Cornell and NYU.
The pressure to pass paying customers is ubiquitous,
and the end result is that a brand name degree affords the holder prima facie regard when it is all the more undeserved.
Frankly, it doesn't matter where you go for a degree, it matters only what you do there and after.
This guy could have gotten his degree from Columbia, and still been a "crank".
Lots of good people who work hard can't get into brand name schools, and they end up better informed and better at their jobs than others who do.
Mostly, people seem to go to big name schools because they have the money and want to meet other people who have the money.
That or scholarships and of course brand name recognition.
I could have gotten into most anywhere, but chose a top-50 school instead of a top 10 or 20 for a lot of reasons.
Now, i can hardly sit in the same room with a lot of people who came out of brand name places,
as if Harvard makes them know more simply because their diplomas say "Harvard".
Anyways, just to be fair to hard working people with degrees from lesser-known schools, that's all.
Oh, I went to a law school well below the top 50, so I'm not hating on where people go to school. I think we're in agreement more than anything, which is that people do not understand the difference between a law degree, which is an academic degree, and a license to practice to law. Admittedly, having a law degree is essentially mandatory to pass the bar, but not all law degrees qualify.
Platuan4th wrote:Yes, hence the words "claims" and "supposedly". Course, this being Dakka, I should have just said "Allegedly."
Oh, I was just commenting because I didn't see him actually claim to be a lawyer, merely that he held an LLM.
Quarterdime wrote:I'm pretty sure it's normal in the legal world to ask for everything you possibly could up front so that by the time you're essentially haggled down through the proceedings you still come out on top. I'm not a lawyer, though.
That's true, but your initial demand still needs some grounding in reality to be taken even remotely seriously.
Look, this is NOT going to go anywhere. First, the UK is part of an international legal system that passed a 2013 & 2015 law that practically defeats these types of cases. This crazy guy has to serve GW. In order to do that he sends it to this agency in the UK that reviews incoming international lawsuits. If they deny it, it's done. That agency is currently at a 14 month turn around time. IF they decide to serve GW on behalf of this guy, GW has up to 4 years to take action. Also, this nut job has all the burden of proof. It will take years and thousands of dollars for this. This international law that was passed in 2013 & 2015 also denies any legal fees to be part of any settlement or judgement. THEN, the UK does not even have to force GW to accept the outcome! There's no actual way to make them pay if they have to. The UK is one of the countries that has a 95% rejection rate for incoming US lawsuits & a 0% enforcement on the judgements. The judgement and arbitration in the UK is currently averaging 20 years...
krazynadechukr wrote: Look, this is NOT going to go anywhere. First, the UK is part of an international legal system that passed a 2013 & 2015 law that practically defeats these types of cases. This crazy guy has to serve GW. In order to do that he sends it to this agency in the UK that reviews incoming international lawsuits. If they deny it, it's done. That agency is currently at a 14 month turn around time. IF they decide to serve GW on behalf of this guy, GW has up to 4 years to take action. Also, this nut job has all the burden of proof. It will take years and thousands of dollars for this. This international law that was passed in 2013 & 2015 also denies any legal fees to be part of any settlement or judgement. THEN, the UK does not even have to force GW to accept the outcome! There's no actual way to make them pay if they have to. The UK is one of the countries that has a 95% rejection rate for incoming US lawsuits & a 0% enforcement on the judgements. The judgement and arbitration in the UK is currently averaging 20 years...
Except that they're not suing Games Workship in the UK. They are suing them in the US in federal court. The last time I checked, Games Workshop does business in the US; that's an understatement, North America is their largest market and is driving their recovery.
Anyhow, the real problem with this case is its scope. He really should have just picked out an area where he has some teeth, like retail practices.
krazynadechukr wrote: Look, this is NOT going to go anywhere. First, the UK is part of an international legal system that passed a 2013 & 2015 law that practically defeats these types of cases. This crazy guy has to serve GW. In order to do that he sends it to this agency in the UK that reviews incoming international lawsuits. If they deny it, it's done. That agency is currently at a 14 month turn around time. IF they decide to serve GW on behalf of this guy, GW has up to 4 years to take action. Also, this nut job has all the burden of proof. It will take years and thousands of dollars for this. This international law that was passed in 2013 & 2015 also denies any legal fees to be part of any settlement or judgement. THEN, the UK does not even have to force GW to accept the outcome! There's no actual way to make them pay if they have to. The UK is one of the countries that has a 95% rejection rate for incoming US lawsuits & a 0% enforcement on the judgements. The judgement and arbitration in the UK is currently averaging 20 years...
Because this case is being conducted under US tort law, not English civil law, or international suits over at WTO. Because both he and GW supposedly do business in the area of South Florida he can sue GW there and they're legally obligated to respond of face a summery judgement against them, under US law. As far as 'enforcement' of the claim, the UK does not have to force an enforcement, the US will do it for them, seizing GW's goods, bank assets, and properties in the US. Since GW pays it's employees in the US, it has bank balances there that can be seized. Losing the IP in the US would be the worst part though, as under this the trustees could, theoretically, license other casters with the right to produce GW figures, and do so legally.
Personally, if I was GW, I'd seek a change of venue as South Florida is a VERY bad place for accusations of Fraud in particular as juries have NO sense of humor about that at all and are inclined to side with the accusing party. He might write like someone throwing a gak-fit but he's actually picked his battleground with some forethought. Since he's asking for a trial by jury, the numerous charges he's bringing are designed to make GW look pretty bad in front of the jurors, and it may just work.
krazynadechukr wrote: Look, this is NOT going to go anywhere. First, the UK is part of an international legal system that passed a 2013 & 2015 law that practically defeats these types of cases. This crazy guy has to serve GW. In order to do that he sends it to this agency in the UK that reviews incoming international lawsuits. If they deny it, it's done. That agency is currently at a 14 month turn around time. IF they decide to serve GW on behalf of this guy, GW has up to 4 years to take action. Also, this nut job has all the burden of proof. It will take years and thousands of dollars for this. This international law that was passed in 2013 & 2015 also denies any legal fees to be part of any settlement or judgement. THEN, the UK does not even have to force GW to accept the outcome! There's no actual way to make them pay if they have to. The UK is one of the countries that has a 95% rejection rate for incoming US lawsuits & a 0% enforcement on the judgements. The judgement and arbitration in the UK is currently averaging 20 years...
Because this case is being conducted under US tort law, not English civil law, or international suits over at WTO. Because both he and GW supposedly do business in the area of South Florida he can sue GW there and they're legally obligated to respond of face a summery judgement against them, under US law. As far as 'enforcement' of the claim, the UK does not have to force an enforcement, the US will do it for them, seizing GW's goods, bank assets, and properties in the US. Since GW pays it's employees in the US, it has bank balances there that can be seized. Losing the IP in the US would be the worst part though, as under this the trustees could, theoretically, license other casters with the right to produce GW figures, and do so legally.
Personally, if I was GW, I'd seek a change of venue as South Florida is a VERY bad place for accusations of Fraud in particular as juries have NO sense of humor about that at all and are inclined to side with the accusing party. He might write like someone throwing a gak-fit but he's actually picked his battleground with some forethought. Since he's asking for a trial by jury, the numerous charges he's bringing are designed to make GW look pretty bad in front of the jurors, and it may just work.
Ha, as if it would get far enough for any of that to matter. Unless there's been a new update, he's already had his filing bounced back as, 'no, just no.' but with generous permission to fix his numerous failings and try again.
Ha, as if it would get far enough for any of that to matter. Unless there's been a new update, he's already had his filing bounced back as, 'no, just no.' but with generous permission to fix his numerous failings and try again.
Actually it was bounced as 'the court requires that the papers be filed in person rather than by mail.' Supposedly he's out of the US atm so we likely will not see a refiling until such time as he is able to present himself at the court.
I will say that I entirely feel his frustrations, having formerly run Dark Reign, which used to be a 40kRPG fansite. Getting cease and desists that claimed that, among other things, that GW owned all the fan scenarios and characters that players produced, that any and all double eagle tattoos are their property, and that a man in a bassinet helm was clearly some sort of proto space marine (it actually was owned by Osprey) pretty much has me at the point that I hope to God that this guy comes back, properly files, and burns GW for their treatment of fans and other customers.
Ha, as if it would get far enough for any of that to matter. Unless there's been a new update, he's already had his filing bounced back as, 'no, just no.' but with generous permission to fix his numerous failings and try again.
Actually it was bounced as 'the court requires that the papers be filed in person rather than by mail.' Supposedly he's out of the US atm so we likely will not see a refiling until such time as he is able to present himself at the court.
I will say that I entirely feel his frustrations, having formerly run Dark Reign, which used to be a 40kRPG fansite. Getting cease and desists that claimed that, among other things, that GW owned all the fan scenarios and characters that players produced, that any and all double eagle tattoos are their property, and that a man in a bassinet helm was clearly some sort of proto space marine (it actually was owned by Osprey) pretty much has me at the point that I hope to God that this guy comes back, properly files, and burns GW for their treatment of fans and other customers.
The same can be said of disney and many other large companies. They feel forced to defend their property because it is too easy to lose control of it, hence the bizarre over-policing. Even video game companies are subject to the problem nowadays. Bethesda sued a much smaller company because they included the word "scrolls".
BaronIveagh wrote: Actually it was bounced as 'the court requires that the papers be filed in person rather than by mail.' Supposedly he's out of the US atm so we likely will not see a refiling until such time as he is able to present himself at the court.
He didn't even file it correctly? Bodes well, lol.
He didn't even file it correctly? Bodes well, lol.
It's not actually an uncommon mistake, as it can vary wildly between jurisdictions, the nature of the case, and even between judges in some areas. That's probably why they offered to allow him to resubmit the filing.
Ha, as if it would get far enough for any of that to matter. Unless there's been a new update, he's already had his filing bounced back as, 'no, just no.' but with generous permission to fix his numerous failings and try again.
Actually it was bounced as 'the court requires that the papers be filed in person rather than by mail.' Supposedly he's out of the US atm so we likely will not see a refiling until such time as he is able to present himself at the court.
I will say that I entirely feel his frustrations, having formerly run Dark Reign, which used to be a 40kRPG fansite. Getting cease and desists that claimed that, among other things, that GW owned all the fan scenarios and characters that players produced, that any and all double eagle tattoos are their property, and that a man in a bassinet helm was clearly some sort of proto space marine (it actually was owned by Osprey) pretty much has me at the point that I hope to God that this guy comes back, properly files, and burns GW for their treatment of fans and other customers.
If there is any 'karma' for this sort of thing, then I agree with you on this point.
I saw similar happening with a lot of sites around that time, especially when you heard of them being targetted with C&D letters, and it was deeply unpleasant. I was helping to moderate on a site that changed it's logo, name etc. Users were getting suspended (and threatened with suspension) based on photos of Finecast pictures, derogatory comments and other 'leaks', it was just a horrible atmosphere (and actually a feeling of fear, I'll be honest) for the people both on and running the sites. And I think ultimately that it ruined that community and what was supposed to be, after all, a 'fun pastime' for a lot of people!
I think it was the one thing, more than anything else, that turned me against GW as a company at that time. To essentially turn on your biggest fans like that I think was a disgrace, and I don't think was anything at all to do with 'protection of IP', which was often a statement used in justification of their actions. I think was just the work of a handful of overly entitled, borderline-sociopaths that were in a position of authority within the company and had an elevated opinion of their own authority, and then used that power on small groups of passionate fans who wanted to do nothing more than spend their free time in sharing that enthusiasm.
You'll notice that there haven't been (to my knowledge) repeats of this kind of action over recent years, and you have to think it has stopped with the apparent culture change within the GW hierarchy. I hope, for the communities of fans that have re-built or formed in the intermediary, that it continues in the same way.
You'll notice that there haven't been (to my knowledge) repeats of this kind of action over recent years, and you have to think it has stopped with the apparent culture change within the GW hierarchy. I hope, for the communities of fans that have re-built or formed in the intermediary, that it continues in the same way.
I think it had more to do with counter-suits and the spectacular failure that was the Chapterhouse case. GW's latest idiocy, not crediting writers, is going to bite them hard, as it's illegal under both EU and UK law, even as work for hire.
You'll notice that there haven't been (to my knowledge) repeats of this kind of action over recent years, and you have to think it has stopped with the apparent culture change within the GW hierarchy. I hope, for the communities of fans that have re-built or formed in the intermediary, that it continues in the same way.
I think it had more to do with counter-suits and the spectacular failure that was the Chapterhouse case. GW's latest idiocy, not crediting writers, is going to bite them hard, as it's illegal under both EU and UK law, even as work for hire.
yeah, while I can ubnderstand them not putting a authors name on the cover as rules books are all collaborative, they don't even have a insert on the front page listing who where all involved in the books creation
You'll notice that there haven't been (to my knowledge) repeats of this kind of action over recent years, and you have to think it has stopped with the apparent culture change within the GW hierarchy. I hope, for the communities of fans that have re-built or formed in the intermediary, that it continues in the same way.
I think it had more to do with counter-suits and the spectacular failure that was the Chapterhouse case. GW's latest idiocy, not crediting writers, is going to bite them hard, as it's illegal under both EU and UK law, even as work for hire.
yeah, while I can ubnderstand them not putting a authors name on the cover as rules books are all collaborative, they don't even have a insert on the front page listing who where all involved in the books creation
I thought GW stopped crediting writers because of all the online anger directed at Mat Ward for his work on certain codex and army books.
Not just Ward, other authors also received a fair share of nasty comments, emails or in some really eerie cases, snail mail with questionable contents.
Are there any authors (in any field actually) that don't have to contend with aggressive and loon 'fans'?
Don't meant Misery type levels, but you'll read a fair amount of comments from various author to this effect.
I honestly don't think it's that at all, you don't get authors (or any type of creative) hiding their names because they are worried about back-lash. I think it's more to do with the GW rule system developments are formulaic and exist as minor re-iterations of the previous version (at least with new editions of 40k and the like) that there is very little, other than the odd new plastic kit' to actually 'create'. The design studio will come up with a new design for something, a bunch of the rules guys will sit around and discuss the best way to represent it and fit it in with the background that was again written by someone else.
That being said, there are obviously situations where this isn't the case, It is a little bit weird where there are genuinely new products (AoS for example), which have had a lot of involvement in the creative process. Is it the same for that game as well? I'm not sure how I would feel I was a 'lead' of rules development for that game and my name hadn't appeared anywhere, you have to think it would affect your employment prospects of you ever wanted to move on from GW and work for another miniatures company (as a lot of the GW creatives seem to do).
for me the accrediation bit thats odd isn't even the move away from a single writers name on the cover. To be honest I think thats not a bad thing as these books ARE collaborative projects. but there's also no additional credits on the inside.
looking at my 5th edition Grey Knights codex (just an example of one of the older 'dexes I was able to find) in addition to the "by Matt ward" at the front, it lists people with hobby design (maybe those are the actual guys who write the rules? layout people model photographers etc. so those who really care would know that there is a whole team devoted to it.
and even then then be honest it's not very good. compared to say,,, an old battletech field manual of mine, it lays out who wrote what, who did the eiditing the art the rules design etc. I can open that book and know EXACTLY who worked where. and Laud or criticize them approperatly. meanwhile with the 5th edition codex grey knights. "what does Hobby design mean"? does that mean they wrote the rules? and Ward's contribution was fluff writing? etc.
I'd very much like to see GW give credit where it's due. the folks writing for them deserve to be reckongized, for the most part they've done a decent job
You'll notice that there haven't been (to my knowledge) repeats of this kind of action over recent years, and you have to think it has stopped with the apparent culture change within the GW hierarchy. I hope, for the communities of fans that have re-built or formed in the intermediary, that it continues in the same way.
I think it had more to do with counter-suits and the spectacular failure that was the Chapterhouse case. GW's latest idiocy, not crediting writers, is going to bite them hard, as it's illegal under both EU and UK law, even as work for hire.
Attribution is considered a Moral Right, which cannot be waived or transferred in the EU under the Berne Convention. UK allows them to be waived, but it must be voluntary. Actually voluntary, the company can't just decide it and tell you that you'd better go along with this. You can, however, use a pseudonym, and some countries require you to assert the right in order to force compliance rather than it being automatic. This varies to a fair extend across the EU and is why most game companies have that little page at the beginning with the contributors, even if they don't say what they wrote.
Attribution is considered a Moral Right, which cannot be waived or transferred in the EU under the Berne Convention. UK allows them to be waived, but it must be voluntary. Actually voluntary, the company can't just decide it and tell you that you'd better go along with this. You can, however, use a pseudonym, and some countries require you to assert the right in order to force compliance rather than it being automatic. This varies to a fair extend across the EU and is why most game companies have that little page at the beginning with the contributors, even if they don't say what they wrote.
The Berne Convention has nothing to do with the EU, and it absolutely allows for anonymous works.
The Berne Convention has nothing to do with the EU, and it absolutely allows for anonymous works.
One, the EU, under the TRIPS Agreement, agreed to uphold certain parts off Berne.
Two, it allows for the Courtesy of Anonymity where an author can renounce a work, voluntarily, or use a pseudonym, but in no way gives up his right to reclaim it or claim authorship credit. Article 6B section 1:"Independently of the author's economic rights, and even after the transfer of the said rights, the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said work, which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation." GW's policy is effectivly to deny the author the right to claim authorship as laid out in this section.
For employee-made copyright works UK law stipulates an exception to how most legal systems view the definition of 'author': while under the work made for hire doctrine the employer is considered the author of a work, UK copyright law only refers the copyright of the work to the employer; the employee is deemed the author.
BaronIveagh wrote: Two, it allows for the Courtesy of Anonymity where an author can renounce a work, voluntarily, or use a pseudonym, but in no way gives up his right to reclaim it or claim authorship credit. Article 6B section 1:"Independently of the author's economic rights, and even after the transfer of the said rights, the author shall have the right to claim authorship of the work and to object to any distortion, mutilation or other modification of, or other derogatory action in relation to, the said work, which would be prejudicial to his honor or reputation." GW's policy is effectivly to deny the author the right to claim authorship as laid out in this section.
You missed the part where an author is not obliged to claim the right to be acknowledged as the author. Has it ever occurred to you that, just maybe, they don’t want it? Or do you somehow have privileged access to their contracts of employment that you can make categorical statements about what GW is or is not "forcing" its employees to do? Perhaps you’ve heard of one of their staff writers trying to claim authorship of a codex or whatever and being fired and/or having their claim denied by the company? Because I somehow missed that very real and troubling case in all the furore over a frivolous suit being brought by a plaintiff with no standing.
Or do you somehow have privileged access to their contracts of employment that you can make categorical statements about what GW is or is not "forcing" its employees to do?
Having signed one of their waivers myself for work done on BFG, and not being under a NDA, I can say yes.
Or do you somehow have privileged access to their contracts of employment that you can make categorical statements about what GW is or is not "forcing" its employees to do?
Having signed one of their waivers myself for work done on BFG, and not being under a NDA, I can say yes.
Details? What are the penalties the contract would try to extract for a public claim of authorial privilege? We're dying to know.
Details? What are the penalties the contract would try to extract for a public claim of authorial privilege? We're dying to know.
Mine required waiver of all claim against GW, monetary or otherwise, if I wanted my name to appear in the product at all. As I'm in the US, that was, sadly, legal.
There are lot of rights in the US, but the right of attribution is not one of them unless the product has an original run of less than 200 copies.
Details? What are the penalties the contract would try to extract for a public claim of authorial privilege? We're dying to know.
Mine required waiver of all claim against GW, monetary or otherwise, if I wanted my name to appear in the product at all. As I'm in the US, that was, sadly, legal.
There are lot of rights in the US, but the right of attribution is not one of them unless the product has an original run of less than 200 copies.
So being a former employee/subcontractor didn't help you at all in avoiding the late Kirby era takedown notices? Wow...but I'm not too shocked I suppose.
Details? What are the penalties the contract would try to extract for a public claim of authorial privilege? We're dying to know.
Mine required waiver of all claim against GW, monetary or otherwise, if I wanted my name to appear in the product at all. As I'm in the US, that was, sadly, legal.
There are lot of rights in the US, but the right of attribution is not one of them unless the product has an original run of less than 200 copies.
Er, hang on, that’s… exactly the opposite of the right granted by the law you cited. You gave up other rights in favour of attribution and that law inalienates attribution such that you can’t give it up anyway. Or at least if you do you can claim it back later consequence free.
To put it another way, you gave up A&B to have C where that law says you always have C, regardless of A or B. The situation is at best tangential to the argument you were presenting, specifically that the authors of the codex books were somehow being legally or contractually prevented from asserting C regardless that we have no evidence of any such thing besides that none of them have yet tried.
Er, hang on, that’s… exactly the opposite of the right granted by the law you cited. You gave up other rights in favour of attribution and that law inalienates attribution such that you can’t give it up anyway. Or at least if you do you can claim it back later consequence free.
To put it another way, you gave up A&B to have C where that law says you always have C, regardless of A or B. The situation is at best tangential to the argument you were presenting, specifically that the authors of the codex books were somehow being legally or contractually prevented from asserting C regardless that we have no evidence of any such thing besides that none of them have yet tried.
A) As i said I'm in the US, the laws I sited were the EU and UK. The US does not recognize moral rights outside a VERY narrowly defined set of situations, totally ignoring their obligations under Berne.
B) as far as asserting it, as of yet it probably isn't in their financial interests to do so. When GW starts letting people go, and people need to be able to prove they worked on book so on and so forth for their submissions elsewhere, you'll see that change
And after reviewing the motion to dismiss, the Judge overseeing the case, William P. Dimitrouleas, has granted Games Workshop’s motion to dismiss, and the case will be closed by October 19th, unless the complaint is amended and legal representation attained.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Full article:
Spoiler:
Florida Man vs. GW: Case Dismissed
Posted by JayArr at October 6, 2017
Earlier this year, a Florida man filed a suit against Games Workshop for $62 million. The case has been dismissed.
The Case Basics
Earlier this year, David Moore, a Florida Man, filed a complaint with the United Stated District Court – Southern District of Florida.
Moore was looking to bring a lawsuit against Games Workshop. Alleging fraud, price fixing, tortious interference, violations of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act and Racketeer Influenced & Corrupt Orgs. Arct (RICO), and Unfair Trade Practices under 18 & 15 USC, Moore aimed to reclaim $62.5 million in damages from Games Workshop. You can read a writeup of the full case here.
In response, however, Games Workshop filed a motion to dismiss the suit, citing that Moore failed to actually list any specific details to back up his claims, nor did he establish jurisdiction over the individual defendants, nor was he able to file pro se. You can read the full details in the document linked above.
And after reviewing the motion to dismiss, the Judge overseeing the case, William P. Dimitrouleas, has granted Games Workshop’s motion to dismiss, and the case will be closed by October 19th, unless the complaint is amended and legal representation attained. If you’re interested in going back through the details of the case yourself, here are the court documents for you:
Affidavit and Exhibit A
Defendant’s Motion to Dismiss
Order Granting Motion to Dismiss
If any further details in this case develop, you can be sure we’ll keep you up to date on the proceedings.
Now that’s enough actual lawyering for one day, it’s time to get back to good old fashioned rules lawyering.
Mr_Rose wrote: So exactly what everyone (possibly except Florida Man) expected to happen, then?
Pretty much. Though it sounded like Spiky Bits was somehow rooting for this guy. I think almost everyone who had any bit of reasonableness expected this to fail in almost exactly this way.
Mr_Rose wrote: So exactly what everyone (possibly except Florida Man) expected to happen, then?
Pretty much. Though it sounded like Spiky Bits was somehow rooting for this guy. I think almost everyone who had any bit of reasonableness expected this to fail in almost exactly this way.
Spikey Bitz hates GW though. And is also awful.
And yes, anyone with sense expected it to get dismissed, because if crazy Florida man representing himself who started his own religion wins then it sets a precedent that undermines the IPs of companies like Disney, Time Warner, etc. Same way the Chapterhouse law suit would have established a precedent that would have had massive effects on after market car parts if GW had won.
Mr_Rose wrote: So exactly what everyone (possibly except Florida Man) expected to happen, then?
Pretty much. Though it sounded like Spiky Bits was somehow rooting for this guy. I think almost everyone who had any bit of reasonableness expected this to fail in almost exactly this way.
Yeah, that was strange. The mere wording sounded like the ramblings of a drunk madman, and somehow spikeybits were fooled?
More like wishful thinking from SpikyBits. Apparently, the guys who run the site are that GW didn't invite them to beta test 8th edition and are seizing on any opportunity to take a shot at them.
EnTyme wrote: More like wishful thinking from SpikyBits. Apparently, the guys who run the site are that GW didn't invite them to beta test 8th edition and are seizing on any opportunity to take a shot at them.
That makes quite a bit of sense. So they're dishonest rather than stupid.
GW is extremely cautious when it comes to legal issues, that's why everything got a weirder name so it is safer and units without a model no longer exist. So don't expect a successful lawsuit against GW anytime soon.
And after reviewing the motion to dismiss, the Judge overseeing the case, William P. Dimitrouleas, has granted Games Workshop’s motion to dismiss, and the case will be closed by October 19th, unless the complaint is amended and legal representation attained.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Full article:
Spoiler:
Florida Man vs. GW: Case Dismissed
Posted by JayArr at October 6, 2017
Earlier this year, a Florida man filed a suit against Games Workshop for $62 million. The case has been dismissed.
The Case Basics
Earlier this year, David Moore, a Florida Man, filed a complaint with the United Stated District Court – Southern District of Florida.
Moore was looking to bring a lawsuit against Games Workshop. Alleging fraud, price fixing, tortious interference, violations of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act and Racketeer Influenced & Corrupt Orgs. Arct (RICO), and Unfair Trade Practices under 18 & 15 USC, Moore aimed to reclaim $62.5 million in damages from Games Workshop. You can read a writeup of the full case here.
In response, however, Games Workshop filed a motion to dismiss the suit, citing that Moore failed to actually list any specific details to back up his claims, nor did he establish jurisdiction over the individual defendants, nor was he able to file pro se. You can read the full details in the document linked above.
And after reviewing the motion to dismiss, the Judge overseeing the case, William P. Dimitrouleas, has granted Games Workshop’s motion to dismiss, and the case will be closed by October 19th, unless the complaint is amended and legal representation attained. If you’re interested in going back through the details of the case yourself, here are the court documents for you:
Affidavit and Exhibit A
Defendant’s Motion to Dismiss
Order Granting Motion to Dismiss
If any further details in this case develop, you can be sure we’ll keep you up to date on the proceedings.
Now that’s enough actual lawyering for one day, it’s time to get back to good old fashioned rules lawyering.
Looks like this isn't news anymore, then (and never really was, given how carelessly the suit was made). Locking unless there are new developments...
bag, the worst kind.
Either make nice, useful videos like normal people do or don't post at all....
