Hi all! I’m Shaun and new to WH40k. About a decade ago I bought a few items from a Games Workshop. I wasn’t a very good painter at the time and I preferred my Airfix/Revell models as they were much larger scale. I wasn’t really into playing WH as a game. Then, I became obsessed with video games for the next 10 years. Now, video games are beginning to bore me, so I’ve been watching a gak load of Warhammer stuff on YouTube and the various wikis around. I’m intrigued to get painting and playing. I bought one of them get started boxes with the 3 marines and paints, and I’m happy how they came out. I’d love to make my own army with my own colours. My issue is what to collect.
Both the Space Marines and Tau intrigued me at first, but I’ve decided I wanted an army that had a balance of ranged and melee units, so Tau is basically out of the question. Therefore all my attention is on the Space Marines, but after reading deeper into them, I’ve concluded (correct me if I’m wrong) only the elite units are particularly good at melee, whereas I’d rather have a mix of melee and ranged standard troops. The assault squad is an issue; I’d have to spend twice as much to get a squad of 10 than tactical, but tacticals generally cannot carry chainswords, bar the one leader.
This is where the issue arises; some Space Marine codexes allow tacticals to carry chainswords, while another allows assault squads to become normal troops if you have a certain character (but I’d still be paying double to make a squad of ten).
The next problem is if I can find a way to have tacticals to carry chainswords, I’d still need to find the chainswords models somewhere, and I don’t know where. I’ve looked on the GW store; the mark III marines can all carry chainswords but I’m not a fan of the armor. Mark IV looks great, but doesn’t have the option of chainswords. I’m not sure how the combat knives compare.
Can someone put me in the right direction here? Which codex would be best for me and where can I find the right models?
Tacticals are generally not going to be as customizable as you want.
best you are getting is one special one heavy and one power weapon, chain sword on the sarge.
If looking at Space marines have you considered blood angels or space wolves or dark angels?
you can always kit bash the sarge with a chain sword from some other kit. or just ebay the bits also the standard tactical kit comes with one chainsword.
alternatively chaos has a lot of shooty punchy options too. also agressors have a ton of shooting and their powerfists are no joke.
Desubot wrote: Tacticals are generally not going to be as customizable as you want.
best you are getting is one special one heavy and one power weapon, chain sword on the sarge.
If looking at Space marines have you considered blood angels or space wolves or dark angels?
I would consider them. Question is if I’d be allowed to use their codexes but with the generic space marine models, using my own colours so I don’t have to for instance use the space wolves’ more elaborate armor.
Also, give the assault marines cost the same amount of points as tacticals if I remove the jump packs and have a squad of 10, how do they fair in close combat against a similar counterpart? Is it even worth me having melee squads with base weaponry?
What about those Primaris reavers? Or are they really costly?
Desubot wrote: Tacticals are generally not going to be as customizable as you want.
best you are getting is one special one heavy and one power weapon, chain sword on the sarge.
If looking at Space marines have you considered blood angels or space wolves or dark angels?
I would consider them. Question is if I’d be allowed to use their codexes but with the generic space marine models, using my own colours so I don’t have to for instance use the space wolves’ more elaborate armor.
Also, give the assault marines cost the same amount of points as tacticals if I remove the jump packs and have a squad of 10, how do they fair in close combat against a similar counterpart? Is it even worth me having melee squads with base weaponry?
What about those Primaris reavers? Or are they really costly?
No one is going to have an issue with doing that typically. And of they do they are just being sour.
Assault marines without jump packs are... not the best but not bad. Really if you want a close combat unit like that the advice to look at blood angels / dark angels / space wolves is good advice.
Assault Marines are not required to take Jump Packs. You can't give them specials/heavies, and aren't troops (more on that in a second), but otherwise are the same.
You could take an Outrider detatchment, which basically means you take Fast Attacks instead of Troops. I prefer to have troops in my games, but that's me.
Assault Marines (or chainsword Tacs) aren't very competitive. If you want to win a lot at tournies, not the way to go. But if you want to play games, it can work fine.
I'd suggest you check out Space Sharks. I don't know if they currently have rules, but they're loyalists who do Tacs with Chainswords. The other option is CSM. Most of the time, however, when you're looking something to be chainsword- or ASM- heavy, you're not going to have many shooting options.
Marines are the army most players start with for many good reasons. Not that it's only a starter army, but rather that you can pivot where you're going to with your force if you pick something "mainstream" (the SM or CSM books). Dark Angels can do choppy or shooty too. BAs are mainly CC, and SW are more CC than shooty.
I'd seriously consider more what you like the look of than what works. Tac Marines have been both garbage members of the top lists quite often over the past few years (arguably both at the same time, at times).
Also, you don't need to use an established Chapter or Legion - you just need to decide which one most closely aligns to your force. So you can make up your own chapter and use the rules for an existing one.
I would suggest getting an ASM squad and a Tac squad (with boltguns and upgrades, not chainswords), and try them out in a game or three. See what you like.
How do scouts perform with knifes and pistols against ranged groups like tac marines, nobs, boys etc. Sorry, I’m new to all this. I know it’s goijg to be fairly balanced, but I don’t want an army that’s going to suck.
Run vanguards, not assault marines. Period. The ability to equip storm shields on 18 ppm models that move 12" can REALLY mess with some enemy units that rely on AP for killing power.
Regardless of what GW says, or really anyone says, marines are NOT a good starter army. It is incredibly easy to build a list that is downright awful. You have to know EXACTLY what you are looking at with marines to even have a hope vs say the DG starter army.
You could totally run some unknown founding chapter that generally practices aggression tactics counts as sw or ba.
just make it clear to the opponent.
Assault marines with or without jump packs do exactly the same thing in CC the only diffrence is mobility and protection assuming you take a transport.
reivers are ok. has cool anti overwatch tech but otherwise functions by generating lots of str4 wounds vs special weapons bypassing armor.
How do scouts perform with knifes and pistols against ranged groups like tac marines, nobs, boys etc. Sorry, I’m new to all this. I know it’s goijg to be fairly balanced, but I don’t want an army that’s going to suck.
First off, scouts have a very important function. They are allowed to set up outside your deployment zone, which can severely mess with your opponent's infiltration abilities that are formatted as "such and such must be more than 9" from an enemy model". Scouts are only limited by the enemy deployment zone, and they set up BEFORE most stratagem shenanigans.
Thier actual killing power is almost an afterthought compared to positional advantage.
How do scouts perform with knifes and pistols against ranged groups like tac marines, nobs, boys etc. Sorry, I’m new to all this. I know it’s goijg to be fairly balanced, but I don’t want an army that’s going to suck.
They do alright. All my Scouts have Shotguns and Combi-Plasma as that's what I had last edition. Advancing and shooting is pretty niche but it does happen.
Desubot wrote: You could totally run some unknown founding chapter that generally practices aggression tactics counts as sw or ba.
just make it clear to the opponent.
Assault marines with or without jump packs do exactly the same thing in CC the only diffrence is mobility and protection assuming you take a transport.
reivers are ok. has cool anti overwatch tech but otherwise functions by generating lots of str4 wounds vs special weapons bypassing armor.
It’s my intention to make my own chapter, I’m just a bit confused on with codex to use. I’ll have to look more in depth into the BA, DA and SW.
Sort of had an idea of my own chapter that perhaps uses tacs, scouts, devs and terminators with miniguns etc to weaken and wound, then have assault marines or vets to run in/jump in and finish off. Obviously I’ve never played a game so I’ll have to try it out first. I just don’t want to make the mistake of buying the wrong units, as this can be a pretty expensive hobby.
Martel732 wrote: Run vanguards, not assault marines. Period. The ability to equip storm shields on 18 ppm models that move 12" can REALLY mess with some enemy units that rely on AP for killing power.
Regardless of what GW says, or really anyone says, marines are NOT a good starter army. It is incredibly easy to build a list that is downright awful. You have to know EXACTLY what you are looking at with marines to even have a hope vs say the DG starter army.
Is there some sort of ratio limit of elites to troops? I’ve read that the 1st company has all the veterans while the rest of the companies do not, so if I had a huge army with more than one company, I’d have to use tacs or assaults instead; isnt that the case? Also is a squad of veterans limited to 5?
There are detachments to accommodate nearly any list composition. Detachments with more troop requirements have a tendency to give more command points, though.
Tacs are troops
Assault marines are fast attack
Vanguards are elites
You generic battallion will require 3 troops and 2 HQs and provide 3 CP, but then you can take any number of the other types. So you could take 3 elites, like 3 vanguards and zero fast attack, as in zero assault marine squads.
For comparison, there is a detachment that is one HQ, and a ton of elite slots, but only gives 1 CP.
You are generally going to be building in detachments.
depending on the detachment and bonuses you are trying to go for it can limit what you can take.
but generally the easiest one to do at 2k at the least is the battalion. which makes you take 2 hq min 3 max, 3 troops min 6 max, and the rest was iirc 6 max elite units, 3 fa and hs.
id see if you could get your hand on the main rule book as you are going to need it eventually anyway.
Desubot wrote: You are generally going to be building in detachments.
depending on the detachment and bonuses you are trying to go for it can limit what you can take.
but generally the easiest one to do at 2k at the least is the battalion. which makes you take 2 hq min 3 max, 3 troops min 6 max, and the rest was iirc 6 max elite units, 3 fa and hs.
id see if you could get your hand on the main rule book as you are going to need it eventually anyway.
Chapter approved is updated points costs, additional rules for things that havent gotten a codex and some new mission type things. you really only need
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40000-rulebook-eng-2017 and the codex. or index for one that does not have a codex
its not necessary to play but its necessary to play the way people usually do.
i guess the best thing to do is ask your local group.
Reading through the codex and refering to forums and wikis... being shieldy sounds nice; is it true that storm shields are no longer classed as weapons, so can be carried with whatever, ei a power sword or relic blade? Also is the invulnerable save worth it; would I face many enemies that deal wounds ignoring armor saves?
So what units would you all recommend me get to start with, play some games and adjust accordingly? I’ve seen a few recommend 2 tactical marine squads and 2 rhinos to move them around, and possibly a captain to replace one tac marine. I’m not too fond of vehicles however, except perhaps a nice dreadnought. What would you all recommend?
Easiest thing to do would be just get one or two starter sets and see where it goes from there. Anything with two troops and an hq.
The start collecting box on gw site gives you a terminator captain and one 10man which can be split into 2 5 men tac squads and a venerable dread.
from there you could add whatever you wanted.
otherwise primarus isnt all that bad and if you can find some one to split it you could get two dark imperium sets and have more marines than you could shake a stick at.
Yes I was thinking about perhaps a devastator squad or assault squad with eviserator later for anti-vehicular support. I guess my main concern is the initial cost of paints etc. I’m not even 100% on a colour scheme yet.
You’re definitely on the right track starting with Codex Space Marines. It’s the perfect starter army - easy to learn and forgiving of early mistakes, but challenging and very rewarding to master. Plus it has the biggest range of models, great capacity to kitbash between almost all model kits and has a combination of large surfaces and fine details to develop your painting skills as you go.
Once you’ve chosen Codex Space Marines as your faction, you get to pick one of 9 subfactions (Chapters) - Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Salamanders, White Scars, Raven Guard, Iron Hands or your own Chapter. Choosing one of the 8 named Chapters gives you access to two things: one or more special characters and some Chapter-specific rules.
For example, Salamanders can use Vulkan He’stan - a tough leader with a spear - and their special rules give them more reliable weapons. Raven Guard, on the other hand, can use Kayvaan Shrike - a fast leader with a Jump Pack and special Lightning Claws - and their special rules make them stealthier than other Chapters.
If you make up your own Chapter, you get to pick which of the 8 named Chapters’ rules best suit your army. For example, if you’re making up a Chapter or tough guys, you would use Iron Hands special rules. If you’re making a very well-armed army, you might use Salamanders special rules.
You can even use the special characters rules on a guy of your own devising. Say your home brew Chapter is going to use Salamanders rules. You can field a Captain of your Chapter and use Vulkan He’stan’s rules. It’s not actually Vulkan He’stan - that guy is very much part of the Salamanders Chapter - but you can use his rules to represent your own Captain, provided you’re using the correct Chapter rules. So if you’re using Salamanders Chapter Tactics, you can use Vulkan’s rules, but not Shrike’s - to use Shrike’s rules for your Captain you’d have to be using Raven Guard Chapter Tactics.
From the sound of what you want to do, I would very strongly recommend using Black Templars Chapter Tactics for your Chapter. These guys’ main special rule gives them more reliable charges into close combat. It allows you to be almost guaranteed to succeed in charges that other Chapters would try, and lets you go for long charges other Chapters can’t risk. They also have some ability to ward off your opponent’s most powerful psychic attacks.
They get 3 special characters: High Marshal Helbrecht, Chaplain Grimaldus and the Emperor’s Champion. Pound for pound I reckon Helbrecht and the Champion are the best leaders in the book. Having 3 different characters on top of all the generic Captains and so on gives you a great ability to make up some of the leaders of your own Chapter with lots of fun rules.
What really screams Black Templars to me about what you want to do though is that as well as special characters they get a special troops choice unique to Black Templars rules: the Crusader Squad. They’re essentially Tactical Squads, but with a few extra options. First, they can swap their Bolters for Chainswords, so you can use them for close combat or shooting. You can even mix and match in the same squad if you really like - like having 3 Bolters and 3 Chainswords plus say a Missile Launcher and a sergeant with a Thunder Hammer. They can also choose to take a specialised close combat weapon instead of a heavy weapon. I think these guys will give you the flexibility of close combat and shooting you’re after, and only Templars can do it with their basic troops. The Crusader squad also lets you mix in up to 10 Scouts in the same squad as the regular guys (they call their Scouts Neophytes when they do this, but it’s your Chapter so they can be called whatever you damned well please). They can also still field normal Tactical Squads and Scout Squads - they aren’t tied to only using Crusader Squads.
Black Templars’ natural weakness is that they’re a close combat oriented army because of their background. Fluff wise they don’t use Devastators or Scouts or other things, but that won’t stop you if you’re making your own Chapter. If you want your fluff to be that your Chapter uses both Devastators and Crusaders, then that’s what they do.
In terms of rules, Templars have one built-in weakness - you don’t get to have access to more stuff than the other Chapters without giving something up. They’re not allowed to use Librarians. As in, it is stipulated that a Librarian can never be given Black Templars Chapter Tactics. Now, if this is a deal breaker for you, then there are ways around that I can tell you so you can field your Chapter’s Librarians.
Honestly, what you want is Chaos Space Marines. Unless you hate how they look or have to be the "good guy" or dont like playing saturday morning cartoon bad guys.
ShaunyP wrote: Yes I was thinking about perhaps a devastator squad or assault squad with eviserator later for anti-vehicular support. I guess my main concern is the initial cost of paints etc. I’m not even 100% on a colour scheme yet.
Painting and cost you just got to plan it out.
if you want to keep it very simple i would suggest something like army painter spray primers and their color matched hair brush paints.
though spray paints can be fiddly at times.
other wise black is even easier and much cheaper. just never ever paint white or yellow. it is literal hell.
personally if i was starting all over again and wanted to do a good looking beater army id spray prime the color, hair brush any spots i missed, do details , make a big batch of wash and just knock them out then seal them with a spray varnish. instead i went imperial fists with air brushed yellow :/
ShaunyP wrote:Yes I was thinking about perhaps a devastator squad or assault squad with eviserator later for anti-vehicular support. I guess my main concern is the initial cost of paints etc. I’m not even 100% on a colour scheme yet.
I would not consider an Assault Squad to be antitank support.
Also, 2x10 is almost certainly inferior to 4x5 when it comes to Tacticals.
Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.
get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.
Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.
get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.
I wouldn't call it "super competitive".
You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.
I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.
Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.
You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback
Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.
I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.
Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.
You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.
Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.
get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.
I wouldn't call it "super competitive".
You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.
I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.
Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.
You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback
As a starting place.
Thanks for the tip. I’ve definitely planned for a captain to be my chapter master.
I thought about having 2 lieutenants to fight with the chapter master, but could start with one. My question is what model do lieutenants use? Captain?
I was aware of splitting tac marines into 5s to take advantage of having 2 sergeants and 2 special/heavys. The issue there would be what to take!
Would you definitely recommend a predator, or would a bulky elite like a Dreadnought or squad of terminators or centurions do just as well?
Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.
I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.
Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.
You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.
A great explanation, thanks! I don’t plan on being super competitive, but I don’t want to be in a situation where I lose every damn game.
A Lieutenant is a Marine that is more-blinged than a Sarge and less-blinged than a Captain.
One of the best things of the SM line is it's wholly up to you what bits from which kits you use, and exactly how he looks (as long as he looks the part)!
Sternie kit would be my suggestion, if you got the old Captain kit instead of the clampack - or some bits from somoene who did - you could kitbash a normal Tac marine with the extra bling.
I would still suggest at least 1 10man, even if you CombatSquad, so that you can get used to how special weapons and heavy weapons work in the same list.
Preds can be some very nice fire support for your Marines. QuadLas can really put the hurt into big stuff, and Auto/HB has a lot of shots. So if you want something big backfield, not a bad choice.
Termies are a heavy threat. Harder to remove. If they get into CC they'll do some damage. Nominal shooting. Works, but I think you'll enjoy having a Pred or Dread more, at first. I'd get them before too long, though.
Dreads can be a lot of fun. Pack a punch, and have some shooting. Not the easiest thing for the other guy to remove, either. A good anchor to threaten anything trying to charge your Tacs.
If you do a 10man, don't start with a Razorback. If you do 5mans, you can (I'd suggest going Rhino instead - you can fit 2 5mans or a 5man and your captain). Razorbacks have some good shooting for their points, now - but it'll detract from it's use as a transport.
I wouldn't double up on Lieutenants yet. Try a few games first.
First things first - choose what style you want to play. Are you going to be "in your face" with close combat? Black Templar and Blood Angels will be good options to look at. Do you want to bring more bullets than your enemy has blood cells? Perhaps Imperial Fists, Salamanders, or Ultra Marines will be chapters to consider. That will help you decide what sort of units you are going to buy, but outside of units that are chapter specific you will be able to mix and match to your hearts content.
To get your feet wet the standard tac units with a captain is a good plan. Add in a dev squad or maybe an elite troop... like say a dread. The getting started box for SM (I think someone mentioned it already) is a real good box to start with, and you can add from there.
As far as painting, I would strongly suggest going with the GW black spray paint. Its going to give you a very nice base coat. The price is a tad higher than other brands, but i feel that the quality of the base coat I have gotten from the GW paint has been worth every cent! My experience with P3 and Army Painter hasn't been bad, but it hasn't been nearly as good either.
Welcome to the community, and remember that you want to focus on what will make this hobby FUN for you.
Bharring wrote: A Lieutenant is a Marine that is more-blinged than a Sarge and less-blinged than a Captain.
One of the best things of the SM line is it's wholly up to you what bits from which kits you use, and exactly how he looks (as long as he looks the part)!
Sternie kit would be my suggestion, if you got the old Captain kit instead of the clampack - or some bits from somoene who did - you could kitbash a normal Tac marine with the extra bling.
I would still suggest at least 1 10man, even if you CombatSquad, so that you can get used to how special weapons and heavy weapons work in the same list.
Preds can be some very nice fire support for your Marines. QuadLas can really put the hurt into big stuff, and Auto/HB has a lot of shots. So if you want something big backfield, not a bad choice.
Termies are a heavy threat. Harder to remove. If they get into CC they'll do some damage. Nominal shooting. Works, but I think you'll enjoy having a Pred or Dread more, at first. I'd get them before too long, though.
Dreads can be a lot of fun. Pack a punch, and have some shooting. Not the easiest thing for the other guy to remove, either. A good anchor to threaten anything trying to charge your Tacs.
If you do a 10man, don't start with a Razorback. If you do 5mans, you can (I'd suggest going Rhino instead - you can fit 2 5mans or a 5man and your captain). Razorbacks have some good shooting for their points, now - but it'll detract from it's use as a transport.
I wouldn't double up on Lieutenants yet. Try a few games first.
Question of 5 man tactical squads is what do I give the sergeants and what heavy/special do I give? Can’t heavies only fire after moving the previous turn? I’m not sure in the point of taking them as tacticals will probably be moving most of the time...
Karthicus wrote: First things first - choose what style you want to play. Are you going to be "in your face" with close combat? Black Templar and Blood Angels will be good options to look at. Do you want to bring more bullets than your enemy has blood cells? Perhaps Imperial Fists, Salamanders, or Ultra Marines will be chapters to consider. That will help you decide what sort of units you are going to buy, but outside of units that are chapter specific you will be able to mix and match to your hearts content.
To get your feet wet the standard tac units with a captain is a good plan. Add in a dev squad or maybe an elite troop... like say a dread. The getting started box for SM (I think someone mentioned it already) is a real good box to start with, and you can add from there.
As far as painting, I would strongly suggest going with the GW black spray paint. Its going to give you a very nice base coat. The price is a tad higher than other brands, but i feel that the quality of the base coat I have gotten from the GW paint has been worth every cent! My experience with P3 and Army Painter hasn't been bad, but it hasn't been nearly as good either.
Welcome to the community, and remember that you want to focus on what will make this hobby FUN for you.
Thanks. I definitely want an ‘in your face, SlashyMcBashy’ type army, but with some long range support. I’d like most of my elites to support the front lines in melee, but perhaps some tanks, cannons and devastators at the rear. Mainly, I’d eventually like a lot of assault squads, complimented by jump pack vanguard veterans, elites and HQs. Just imagine a lot of hand to hand carnage.
Although I’m not sure how successful this would be, as I don’t really understand the jump pack ability yet;after the movement phase, jump pack units can be placed atleast 9” from enemy units, and then in the charge phase they can charge if successful, then hack and slash?
Honestly I wish tacs could carry chainswords because even if I had assaults without the jump packs, they’re still classed as fast attack. I’ve heard some chapters can have chainswords with tacticals, but currently there’s no models to support this.
I don't know if you're set on loyalist Space Marines, but Death Guard can make a pretty mean close-combat army. Every Plague Marine can take what is basically a better equivalent of a power weapon, you have deep-striking elites like the Deathshroud and Blightlords, and long-range fire support is fulfilled very handily by units like the Plagueburst Crawler. Most of the army is very slow and will be tricky to get into charging range, but there are great, fast moving support units like Daemon Princes, Foetid Blight Drones and Mortarion. Just a thought.
I'm definitely feeling the BA or maybe SF in that post. Possibly even CSM (all of which can be made from the same kits).
The Assault Marine kits come with chainswords. Not sure how many. And if they don't have backpacks, they're basically the same as Tacs. Further, you can mix 'n match basically any Power Armor Marine kits (Tacs, Devs, ASM, Sternies, VV, even CSM and chapter-specifc kits). So if you really want chainsword-swinging Marines, find kits that have chainswords.
Jumppack infantry can move further than infantry on foot. So even if you deploy both, those Jumppackers are moving around much faster - making it easier to get the assault.
Jumppackers can 'Deep Strike' (like Terminators and others). This puts them 9" away from anything they want to charge. Odds are, you're failing a 9" charge. Even with rerolls, its less than 50/50. So, typically, you'll drop down turn one then charge turn two. I've killed a *lot* of Marines who counted on dropping in and charging me that turn.
Blood Angels are getting their Codex shortly. You might be interested in them over 'vanilla' Space Marines. But if you're really crazy about chainsword melee awesomeness, it's all about the CSM. Have you looked at what Berzerkers (of Khorne) are? CSM has more and varied CC threats than Loyalists. They still have Devestators (called Havoks), and some long-range firepower too.
Perhaps I should just buy the starter set, practice painting on them then play some games. I can add and remove accordingly. I’d definitely want to replace the captain with my own and pla6 around with green stuff to truly make my own chapter.
If you do look at CSM, a basic understanding is there are 4 gods (and not everything needs to be aligned).
Khorne is the Blood God (Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!). Devotees are caked in blood (red) and tear things apart (Berserkers and such).
Nurgle is the god of disease and decay (Papa Nurgle - the only chaos god to actually care for his followers). Devotees are plagued and festering, but draw unnatural durability from that. They look disgusting (as in bile and pus), and have poop-green style colors.
There's more, of course. But wanted to point those out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That sounds like a great idea, ShaunyP. The basics can be any chapter (except Thousand Suns, but we don't need to get into that. Or the two Legions who were [redacted].).
How do scouts perform with knifes and pistols against ranged groups like tac marines, nobs, boys etc. Sorry, I’m new to all this. I know it’s goijg to be fairly balanced, but I don’t want an army that’s going to suck.
If you don't want an army that 'sucks', you're going to need to do some investigative work on what your local gaming scene (meta) looks like. If people there are 'casual', then most lists will work. If they're hardcore/tournament style, then you need to be really careful how you build your army or else it will suck and suck hard. Which will be money down the drain if you choose to continue playing and have to buy a 'competitive' army on top of what you've already spent.
As far as 'competitive' marine armies go, bobby g (roboute guilliman) and asscan razors (razorbacks with twin-linked assault cannons) seem to be the flavour of the day.
A question regarding the Black Templars; they have the crusader squads full of initiates and can be armed with chainswords. Currently I can’t find a new box of them anywhere. Is there anything to stop me taking some tacticals or assaults without jump packs, giving them all chainswords, and calling them crusader initiates?
Also, if I had crusader initiates, would I have to go black Templars and use their codex (if they have one), as they’re included in the generic space marine codex playsheets.
The fact that chainswords get one extra attack means all of them could have 2 attacks each and the sergeant/sword brother could have 3 seems very nice. A 10 man could potentially get 21 attacks in the fight phase.
I don't have the book in front of me, and don't play a chapter that uses Neophytes/Initiates - so I can't answer if you need to choose BT tactics to use that entry.
But BT are one of the chapters in the Space Marine codex - so that's what you'd use.
Are the Initiates a 3+ save of a 4+ save? If it's a 4+, those would look better if you used Scout models.
Another point is that, if you want to have a squad do decent in combat, give Sarge a power weapon. They can't kill Sarge until they've killed everyone else, so not only does he get more attacks, but he'll survive the longest. And even one model with a power weapon can greatly increase the squad's CC ability.
A question regarding the Black Templars; they have the crusader squads full of initiates and can be armed with chainswords. Currently I can’t find a new box of them anywhere. Is there anything to stop me taking some tacticals or assaults without jump packs, giving them all chainswords, and calling them crusader initiates?
Also, if I had crusader initiates, would I have to go black Templars and use their codex (if they have one), as they’re included in the generic space marine codex playsheets.
The fact that chainswords get one extra attack means all of them could have 2 attacks each and the sergeant/sword brother could have 3 seems very nice. A 10 man could potentially get 21 attacks in the fight phase.
Can you use regular tacticals with chainswords as initiates? Yes.
Should you use the codex for Black Templar if you're playing that army? Yes, although BT are rolled into the normal Space Marine codex.
Extra attacks are nice, but you can't forget about strength and AP. 21 Str 4 AP 0 attacks are hardly better than what one 10-man squad of Chaos Cultists or Imperial Guard infantry can put out in ranged fire, at a much more expensive points level. It's also pretty much the same as what a squad of 10 marines with bolters can do already. A squad of ten Plague Marines with 9 Bubotic Axes can make 18 Str 5 AP -2 attacks per turn, albeit at an even higher cost in points. If you're serious about close combat units, try to find some that have some attacks with AP. Look for untis that can take power weapons and the like.
Generally speaking loyalist high-quality CC attacks tend to come from Sarges, Characters, or Elites. Sarges have squaddies to take the wounds. Characters buff your squads and hide behind them. Elites can be more durable (but VV are no more durable than squadies).
Bharring wrote: Generally speaking loyalist high-quality CC attacks tend to come from Sarges, Characters, or Elites. Sarges have squaddies to take the wounds. Characters buff your squads and hide behind them. Elites can be more durable (but VV are no more durable than squadies).
This is good advice if you insist on playing a loyalist CC army. You're going to be using your regular dudes as chaff to protect your squad leaders and characters, and you're going to want to give the latter power weapons and the like. Regular marines/scouts are just not that good in close combat because they have weak attacks, yet still don't have the numbers to bring things down through sheer volume.
Bharring wrote: I don't have the book in front of me, and don't play a chapter that uses Neophytes/Initiates - so I can't answer if you need to choose BT tactics to use that entry.
But BT are one of the chapters in the Space Marine codex - so that's what you'd use.
Are the Initiates a 3+ save of a 4+ save? If it's a 4+, those would look better if you used Scout models.
Another point is that, if you want to have a squad do decent in combat, give Sarge a power weapon. They can't kill Sarge until they've killed everyone else, so not only does he get more attacks, but he'll survive the longest. And even one model with a power weapon can greatly increase the squad's CC ability.
Bharring, in the Crusader squad, I can take 5 to 10 initiates (can replace 1 with sergeant) and 5 to 10 neophytes, so can be up to 20 units in the squad:
—Neophytes cost 11 each, have 6 Ld, less than scouts but has the same +4 save. They seem weaker, but can carry chainswords so get the extra attack each.
—Initiates cost 13 each, have 7 Ld like scouts, but get a better +3 save like tac marines. Again, they can carry chainswords so get the extra attack. One can carry a special weapon, and another can choose from a heavy or a power sword, axe, fist or maul.
—Sword Brother has 8 Ld like scout sergeant, and the 2 attacks. They get access to the sergeant weapon list.
This means I can have a squad of 5 with 2 power swords.
Neophytes woud be the Scout bodies I was thinking of. Initiates are full brothers, like you thought they were.
A big rule for Marine CC is casualty selection. You choose. So if you're fighting an about-equal squad, you don't lose a power sword the first 3 times they kill somebody. Many units in this game don't have those "ablaitive wounds". It can be very helpful.
Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.
get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.
I wouldn't call it "super competitive".
You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.
I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.
Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.
You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback
As a starting place.
Thanks for the tip. I’ve definitely planned for a captain to be my chapter master.
I thought about having 2 lieutenants to fight with the chapter master, but could start with one. My question is what model do lieutenants use? Captain?
I was aware of splitting tac marines into 5s to take advantage of having 2 sergeants and 2 special/heavys. The issue there would be what to take!
Would you definitely recommend a predator, or would a bulky elite like a Dreadnought or squad of terminators or centurions do just as well?
You convert lieutenants yourself, it's one of the easier things to do.
I would recommend a Predator if you like it. My friend has a quad-las predator that he almost swears by, and at least in his list it performs well. My personal opinion is that they're a solid unit, but not astoundingly above average. As far as loadouts go, I'd go for either Autocannon/Lascannons or Quad Las.
I would not recommend Centurions. My varieties of Power Armor are Sisters first and Space Wolves second, so I have no Centurions, but none of the SM players I know field them, and the one time I saw them fielded they definitely didn't perform.
As far as Black Templars goes:
1: I would not exchange my boltguns for chainswords. Tacticals, which Crusaders still are at heart are a average shooting unit that you'd be turning into a pretty bad CQC unit.
2: Righteous Zeal can be very powerfully leveraged using Deep Striking units to get off a massed turn-1 charge. I would strongly consider Vanguard Veterans in this capacity, and it can make Terminators good. Space Marines are fairly well situated to leverage that into a fairly solid battle plan. Start with a powerful shooting firebase that can pick off critical targets, and bring in your CQC troops from reserve to tie down and clean up the rest.
Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.
I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.
Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.
You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.
I have watched several and helped a few people pick this up. Following the advice to "buy whatever you want regardless of efficiency, enjoy losing" is a recipe for disaster. That's how I became a Space Wolves player, with a collection of everything their previous owner though was cool but wasn't good. Everyone always plays for fun: if you lose every game you play, no matter how awesome you think your faction's fluff is, you will not have fun.
It's far easier to start with a strong core and then add on models you like than it is to start with a weak core and try to add in good units once you're tired of losing. And, of course, that's not to say that "models you like" and "units that are good" are mutually exclusive; ideally, if you're in the right faction, there will be rather significant overlap there. A single bad unit does not break a list, and a single good unit does not make a list.
Anyway, another thing, not to be personal: If your opponent is going to "enjoy teaching you a lesson" pounding you down for trying to field a good list, you are playing with the wrong people. If you're legitimately trying to win, I at least will be more than happy to help you out and offer suggestions to improve after playing you. Play with nice people, and be a nice person.
I believe there are a lot of misconceptions and false equations here.
First off, "fun list", "fluffy list", and "good list" are by no means mutually exclusive. My Sisters list is both fun and good. So is my Imperial Guard list.
Second, the basics of the game are not that hard to learn. There's a lot, yes, but most of it is minutae. Understand your list, inside and out. After every battle, think about the enemy list you faced, and try to figure out how it works, and think about how you can better face it.
Third, please, please, please don't be a "casual at all costs" guy. I was like that once. It's not a moral high ground, it's a pit I was standing at the bottom of shouting curses at those who were actually willing to put in the effort to climb out.
Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.
get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.
I wouldn't call it "super competitive".
You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.
I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.
Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.
You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback
As a starting place.
Thanks for the tip. I’ve definitely planned for a captain to be my chapter master.
I thought about having 2 lieutenants to fight with the chapter master, but could start with one. My question is what model do lieutenants use? Captain?
I was aware of splitting tac marines into 5s to take advantage of having 2 sergeants and 2 special/heavys. The issue there would be what to take!
Would you definitely recommend a predator, or would a bulky elite like a Dreadnought or squad of terminators or centurions do just as well?
You convert lieutenants yourself, it's one of the easier things to do.
I would recommend a Predator if you like it. My friend has a quad-las predator that he almost swears by, and at least in his list it performs well. My personal opinion is that they're a solid unit, but not astoundingly above average. As far as loadouts go, I'd go for either Autocannon/Lascannons or Quad Las.
I would not recommend Centurions. My varieties of Power Armor are Sisters first and Space Wolves second, so I have no Centurions, but none of the SM players I know field them, and the one time I saw them fielded they definitely didn't perform.
As far as Black Templars goes:
1: I would not exchange my boltguns for chainswords. Tacticals, which Crusaders still are at heart are a average shooting unit that you'd be turning into a pretty bad CQC unit.
2: Righteous Zeal can be very powerfully leveraged using Deep Striking units to get off a massed turn-1 charge. I would strongly consider Vanguard Veterans in this capacity, and it can make Terminators good. Space Marines are fairly well situated to leverage that into a fairly solid battle plan. Start with a powerful shooting firebase that can pick off critical targets, and bring in your CQC troops from reserve to tie down and clean up the rest.
Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.
I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.
Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.
You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.
I have watched several and helped a few people pick this up. Following the advice to "buy whatever you want regardless of efficiency, enjoy losing" is a recipe for disaster. That's how I became a Space Wolves player, with a collection of everything their previous owner though was cool but wasn't good. Everyone always plays for fun: if you lose every game you play, no matter how awesome you think your faction's fluff is, you will not have fun.
It's far easier to start with a strong core and then add on models you like than it is to start with a weak core and try to add in good units once you're tired of losing. And, of course, that's not to say that "models you like" and "units that are good" are mutually exclusive; ideally, if you're in the right faction, there will be rather significant overlap there. A single bad unit does not break a list, and a single good unit does not make a list.
Anyway, another thing, not to be personal: If your opponent is going to "enjoy teaching you a lesson" pounding you down for trying to field a good list, you are playing with the wrong people. If you're legitimately trying to win, I at least will be more than happy to help you out and offer suggestions to improve after playing you. Play with nice people, and be a nice person.
I believe there are a lot of misconceptions and false equations here.
First off, "fun list", "fluffy list", and "good list" are by no means mutually exclusive. My Sisters list is both fun and good. So is my Imperial Guard list.
Second, the basics of the game are not that hard to learn. There's a lot, yes, but most of it is minutae. Understand your list, inside and out. After every battle, think about the enemy list you faced, and try to figure out how it works, and think about how you can better face it.
Third, please, please, please don't be a "casual at all costs" guy. I was like that once. It's not a moral high ground, it's a pit I was standing at the bottom of shouting curses at those who were actually willing to put in the effort to climb out.
Firstly, what’s a fluffy list, and fluffy units etc?
So you think I should start off shooty? Can I keep my captain melee, or would that be a bad idea (even if he’s got a jump pack)?
Also how would you recommend I set up my tacticals? In 5s or 10s? Min/max them by giving one a heavy Bolter or something, or have one take a special/heavy and upgrade the seargent with something sexy?
A fluffy list is one that fits with the methods and character of the army according to the lore. So an Ultramarines gunlineis actually kind of a fluffy list, whereas a Black Templars gunline would not be.
If you want a much easier time with vanilla Space Marines, you should consider going shooty instead of doing a close combat army. It's going to take a much better understanding of the game to be successful with a close combat SM list. That being said, you should really do what you want to do. Just keep putting thought and planning into it so you don't waste your time and money.
A lot of people would run tactical squads as MSU with 5 dudes, one having a missile launcher or lascannon and the sergeant having a combi-weapon. However, if you want to do a gunline army it would serve you better to run as many devastator squads as possible and keep TAC squads to a minimum or use scouts instead. TACs are a jack of all trades, master of none type unit that will not excel at any one type of combat. If you're equipping your TAC squads with long-range weaponry then giving your sergeants close combat weapons is kind of a waste, but independent characters can make good harassment and assault units if you equip them with close combat units and pick your charges selectively.
If you really want to do a close combat army, Chaos factions are typically better equipped for it, but you should be able to pull it off with chapters like Black Templar, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. If you want to do a shooty army then Ultramarines are an obvious choice especially if you choose to take Guilliman.
Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.
Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.
get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.
I wouldn't call it "super competitive".
You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.
I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.
Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.
You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback
As a starting place.
Thanks for the tip. I’ve definitely planned for a captain to be my chapter master.
I thought about having 2 lieutenants to fight with the chapter master, but could start with one. My question is what model do lieutenants use? Captain?
I was aware of splitting tac marines into 5s to take advantage of having 2 sergeants and 2 special/heavys. The issue there would be what to take!
Would you definitely recommend a predator, or would a bulky elite like a Dreadnought or squad of terminators or centurions do just as well?
You convert lieutenants yourself, it's one of the easier things to do.
I would recommend a Predator if you like it. My friend has a quad-las predator that he almost swears by, and at least in his list it performs well. My personal opinion is that they're a solid unit, but not astoundingly above average. As far as loadouts go, I'd go for either Autocannon/Lascannons or Quad Las.
I would not recommend Centurions. My varieties of Power Armor are Sisters first and Space Wolves second, so I have no Centurions, but none of the SM players I know field them, and the one time I saw them fielded they definitely didn't perform.
As far as Black Templars goes:
1: I would not exchange my boltguns for chainswords. Tacticals, which Crusaders still are at heart are a average shooting unit that you'd be turning into a pretty bad CQC unit.
2: Righteous Zeal can be very powerfully leveraged using Deep Striking units to get off a massed turn-1 charge. I would strongly consider Vanguard Veterans in this capacity, and it can make Terminators good. Space Marines are fairly well situated to leverage that into a fairly solid battle plan. Start with a powerful shooting firebase that can pick off critical targets, and bring in your CQC troops from reserve to tie down and clean up the rest.
Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.
I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.
Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.
You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.
I have watched several and helped a few people pick this up. Following the advice to "buy whatever you want regardless of efficiency, enjoy losing" is a recipe for disaster. That's how I became a Space Wolves player, with a collection of everything their previous owner though was cool but wasn't good. Everyone always plays for fun: if you lose every game you play, no matter how awesome you think your faction's fluff is, you will not have fun.
It's far easier to start with a strong core and then add on models you like than it is to start with a weak core and try to add in good units once you're tired of losing. And, of course, that's not to say that "models you like" and "units that are good" are mutually exclusive; ideally, if you're in the right faction, there will be rather significant overlap there. A single bad unit does not break a list, and a single good unit does not make a list.
Anyway, another thing, not to be personal: If your opponent is going to "enjoy teaching you a lesson" pounding you down for trying to field a good list, you are playing with the wrong people. If you're legitimately trying to win, I at least will be more than happy to help you out and offer suggestions to improve after playing you. Play with nice people, and be a nice person.
I believe there are a lot of misconceptions and false equations here.
First off, "fun list", "fluffy list", and "good list" are by no means mutually exclusive. My Sisters list is both fun and good. So is my Imperial Guard list.
Second, the basics of the game are not that hard to learn. There's a lot, yes, but most of it is minutae. Understand your list, inside and out. After every battle, think about the enemy list you faced, and try to figure out how it works, and think about how you can better face it.
Third, please, please, please don't be a "casual at all costs" guy. I was like that once. It's not a moral high ground, it's a pit I was standing at the bottom of shouting curses at those who were actually willing to put in the effort to climb out.
Firstly, what’s a fluffy list, and fluffy units etc?
So you think I should start off shooty? Can I keep my captain melee, or would that be a bad idea (even if he’s got a jump pack)?
Also how would you recommend I set up my tacticals? In 5s or 10s? Min/max them by giving one a heavy Bolter or something, or have one take a special/heavy and upgrade the seargent with something sexy?
A fluffy list is as Luciferian said, lore compliant. However, everybody has a lot of different perceptions as to what is lore compliant, and I generally see it used as a term used for people to absolve themselves of their defeat ["You won because my list was fluffy and yours was cheesy."]. There seems to be a conception that fluffy lists must be bad and that good lists cannot be fluffy, though this conception is blatantly untrue.
With regards to shooty vs CQC: Early CQC is an incredibly valuable tool for any army to be able to do. Most units in CQC cannot shoot and will have to fall back, so going into CQC with strong shooting units can neutralize them for a turn without having to commit heavy firepower to them, freeing up your hard-hitting units to take out other targets. This is most valuable against vehicles, which would otherwise require a substantial investment of effort to destroy.
Some armies can pull off being an entirely melee army. Most of these armies rely on deep strike [rules that allow a unit to be set up more than 9" from the enemy at the end of the movement phase] to bring a lot of very hard hitting melee units across the board on turn 1. Armies that are best at this have easy access to deep strike capable melee troops and access to the means to make a 9" charge, usually re-rolls. Space Marines can do with using the Black Templars chapter tactic, and can do it fairly well, if this is something you want to do.
Space Marines are inherently more shooty than they are stabby. However, they are not as shooty as full shooting forces, like the Imperial Guard, so you're probably not going to win a pure gun duel with a list of equivalent efficiency. It is my opinion that it would be wise to leverage the Space Marine's versatility to win, and use your CQC units in conjunction with your shooting units to form a greater whole.
While Space Marines can gain a lot of tactical power from their CQC troops, most of their killing power is in ranged units, and it's important to keep that in mind.
That is not to say it's impossible to be a full gunline or a full mass melee list. Ultramarines make a very strong gunline, and Black Templars can pull of a mass melee list quite well.
As for setting up Tacticals, I would personally use 5 Tacticals with an antitank heavy weapon. 5 guys with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher can take up a safe position in ruins and augment the fire of your real antitank units, and can use their boltguns to augment the power of stronger anti-infantry units. Tacitcals are your key scoring units, and can be hard to shift once they've captured a position, but they're far from your core hitting power.
If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.
Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.
So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.
Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.
Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.
The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.
Lol so many varying opinions. I’m going with Space Marines as I like the look of them and they seem to be a jack of all trades. Not excelling at anything, but not terrible at anything. I was interested in the Tau, but they’re so shooty, melee units would knits cut them up if they strike after the movement phase. Plus they’re damn commies lol! Tyranids are cool, but I really wanted a human army, no monsters or weird deformities. If what you say is true and Space Marines are difficult to play, I’d rather throw myself in the deep end and push myself.
ShaunyP wrote: Lol so many varying opinions. I’m going with Space Marines as I like the look of them and they seem to be a jack of all trades. Not excelling at anything, but not terrible at anything. I was interested in the Tau, but they’re so shooty, melee units would knits cut them up if they strike after the movement phase. Plus they’re damn commies lol! Tyranids are cool, but I really wanted a human army, no monsters or weird deformities. If what you say is true and Space Marines are difficult to play, I’d rather throw myself in the deep end and push myself.
Most of us are saying pretty much the same thing. Marines are kind of a jack of all trades army, but that means they'll always struggle against more specialized lists. They are pretty weak in close combat, and like Marmatag said, they are really only good at shooting if you make a list which capitalizes heavily on rerolls. Which basically means an Ultramarines Guilliman gunline with assbacks and devastators. You can make a good, take all comers list with vanilla Marines, but you're not going to be presented with a plethora of ways to get there.
All that being said, it's up to you. Aesthetics and fluff are just as important as viability for many people, if not more so.
I just wish you'd hear the call of Chaos
Also, keep in mind that the rules for modeling and painting are not as restrictive as the actual rules of the game. You could make yourself a heresy-era Chaos army that looked more like vanilla marines, for example.
ShaunyP wrote: Lol so many varying opinions. I’m going with Space Marines as I like the look of them and they seem to be a jack of all trades. Not excelling at anything, but not terrible at anything. I was interested in the Tau, but they’re so shooty, melee units would knits cut them up if they strike after the movement phase. Plus they’re damn commies lol! Tyranids are cool, but I really wanted a human army, no monsters or weird deformities. If what you say is true and Space Marines are difficult to play, I’d rather throw myself in the deep end and push myself.
Most of us are saying pretty much the same thing. Marines are kind of a jack of all trades army, but that means they'll always struggle against more specialized lists. They are pretty weak in close combat, and like Marmatag said, they are really only good at shooting if you make a list which capitalizes heavily on rerolls. Which basically means an Ultramarines Guilliman gunline with assbacks and devastators. You can make a good, take all comers list with vanilla Marines, but you're not going to be presented with a plethora of ways to get there.
All that being said, it's up to you. Aesthetics and fluff are just as important as viability for many people, if not more so.
I just wish you'd hear the call of Chaos
Chaos is marmite for me, I love the look of some units, but hate the look of others! I’ve already came up with a brief setting for my chapter and chaos wouldn’t fit. I think I’m going for an Astartes codex army, perhaps with the same views as... can’t remember the chapter; loyal to the emperor, unloyal to the imperium.
Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.
Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.
So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.
Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.
Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.
The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.
You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.
Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.
I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.
Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.
Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.
So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.
Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.
Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.
The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.
You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.
Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.
I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.
Locking shooting? And i want a melee Captain so later I can buy lieutenants and vanguards, maybe some assaults and termies to assist at the front line with re-rolls and the like. By that time I could have cheaper captains at the rear supporting tacticals, heavies and vehicles with re-rolls. Is that solid?
Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.
Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.
So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.
Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.
Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.
The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.
You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.
Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.
I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.
Locking shooting? And i want a melee Captain so later I can buy lieutenants and vanguards, maybe some assaults and termies to assist at the front line with re-rolls and the like. By that time I could have cheaper captains at the rear supporting tacticals, heavies and vehicles with re-rolls. Is that solid?
As I said earlier, a unit with enemy models within 1" can only shoot with pistols. Most units that fall back during the movement phase cannot shoot during the shooting phase. Many units, tanks in particular, take several times their cost in firepower to eliminate, but can be "turned off" for far less by getting a model within 1" of it. This is very valuable. If you're in a straight up gun battle with the IG, you're going to lose, but if an 80 point Vanguard squad can stop a 180 point Leman Russ tank [or multiple if you're clever] from shooting during the first few turns, you can tip the balance in your favor. It's better to brave the overwatch of a Leman Russ Punisher than it is to take it's full might in the shooting phase!
Of course, it's not unbeatable. That's why shooting armies have "screens", cheap units that stand between their valuable units and enemy assault units, to drive back the deep strike perimeter and give them a turn or two to shoot down your CQC troops.
There are actually a lot of tactical uses for limited CQC commitment in otherwise shooting-centric lists. I think of CQC as a mean to enhance my shooting units' performance and control what my opponent can do on his turn, not really as a means to kill enemy units.
A CQC captain with a Jump Pack is quite good for supporting Vanguards [and Terminators]. Keep him cheap, though.
Assault Marines [Skyclaws] are a unit that I just don't like. It is my opinion that, if you're going to include Assault Marines, you should instead use Vanguard Veterans. This is because Vanguards get +1 attack base and can wield twin pistols, meaning they have the same CQC effectiveness but also get an extra shot at 12" for 2 points more per model. They can also equip fancy weapons, if you desire them.
The people who tell you Space Marines are challenging aren't wrong, but don't be discouraged. They have a lot of tactical power in their diversity, but it's not as easy to leverage as the sheer efficiency of the Imperial Guard or Tyranids. I won't lie and say that you can bring an ultimate netlist and expect to crush your opposition every game, but as you become intimately familiar with your units, and you enemy's, you will be able to recognize and take advantages of more and more tactical opportunities.
Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.
Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.
So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.
Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.
Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.
The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.
You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.
Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.
I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.
Locking shooting? And i want a melee Captain so later I can buy lieutenants and vanguards, maybe some assaults and termies to assist at the front line with re-rolls and the like. By that time I could have cheaper captains at the rear supporting tacticals, heavies and vehicles with re-rolls. Is that solid?
As I said earlier, a unit with enemy models within 1" can only shoot with pistols. Most units that fall back during the movement phase cannot shoot during the shooting phase. Many units, tanks in particular, take several times their cost in firepower to eliminate, but can be "turned off" for far less by getting a model within 1" of it. This is very valuable. If you're in a straight up gun battle with the IG, you're going to lose, but if an 80 point Vanguard squad can stop a 180 point Leman Russ tank [or multiple if you're clever] from shooting during the first few turns, you can tip the balance in your favor. It's better to brave the overwatch of a Leman Russ Punisher than it is to take it's full might in the shooting phase!
Of course, it's not unbeatable. That's why shooting armies have "screens", cheap units that stand between their valuable units and enemy assault units, to drive back the deep strike perimeter and give them a turn or two to shoot down your CQC troops.
There are actually a lot of tactical uses for limited CQC commitment in otherwise shooting-centric lists. I think of CQC as a mean to enhance my shooting units' performance and control what my opponent can do on his turn, not really as a means to kill enemy units.
A CQC captain with a Jump Pack is quite good for supporting Vanguards [and Terminators]. Keep him cheap, though.
Assault Marines [Skyclaws] are a unit that I just don't like. It is my opinion that, if you're going to include Assault Marines, you should instead use Vanguard Veterans. This is because Vanguards get +1 attack base and can wield twin pistols, meaning they have the same CQC effectiveness but also get an extra shot at 12" for 2 points more per model. They can also equip fancy weapons, if you desire them.
Interesting. In terms of my Captain, teeth costs 0 as has to be chainsword. Might keep the master crafted Bolter for 3 points, rapid fire, ap-1 D2. With jump pack is 93 point,+3 for Bolter is 96. Pretty cheap.
Interesting. In terms of my Captain, teeth costs 0 as has to be chainsword. Might keep the master crafted Bolter for 3 points, rapid fire, ap-1 D2. With jump pack is 93 point,+3 for Bolter is 96. Pretty cheap.
I like Storm Bolters over MC Boltguns. Save a point.
Yeah, the MC Boltgun has D2, but I like the extra shots. The MC Boltgun is uniquely suited to killing Primaris Marines, and honestly, I don't have enough of a problem with them to warrant the loss of shots against Imperial Guardsmen.
Anyway, that's a minor matter of circumstantial efficiency. Captain + Teeth + MC Boltgun is definitely good. I've got a place to be now, later, and good luck.
Desubot wrote: Tacticals are generally not going to be as customizable as you want.
best you are getting is one special one heavy and one power weapon, chain sword on the sarge.
If looking at Space marines have you considered blood angels or space wolves or dark angels?
I would consider them. Question is if I’d be allowed to use their codexes but with the generic space marine models, using my own colours so I don’t have to for instance use the space wolves’ more elaborate armor.
Space wolf armor isn't generally more elaborate. Current pics have them wearing a lot of fetishy stuff and wolf pelts, but that isn't strictly necessary.
As for colours, that isn't a big deal. There are even past materials that point out that chapters can and do repaint their armour for different operations and environments, special circumstances or honors (Dark Angels, particularly, since that is how they ended up with three different color schemes: original, retcon green and honor-the-dead Bone White). And for a Chapter like Space Wolves, the leader of a great company has a lot of leeway, and might order his men to repaint their armour for a matter of honor, a vow, or even a drunken bet. And they can be out of contact with the main chapter for decades or centuries at a time, even without special circumstances, so might not be up to date on how their grey armor is now supposed to be a light bluish-gray with garish yellow shoulders depending on whose Great Company it is.
I like the models of the plain old space marine though; they give a lot of space for adding your own decorations, I’m not too bad with clay and the likes, so I may be pretty good at adding decor with green stuff.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I have watched several and helped a few people pick this up. Following the advice to "buy whatever you want regardless of efficiency, enjoy losing" is a recipe for disaster. That's how I became a Space Wolves player, with a collection of everything their previous owner though was cool but wasn't good. Everyone always plays for fun: if you lose every game you play, no matter how awesome you think your faction's fluff is, you will not have fun.
It's far easier to start with a strong core and then add on models you like than it is to start with a weak core and try to add in good units once you're tired of losing. And, of course, that's not to say that "models you like" and "units that are good" are mutually exclusive; ideally, if you're in the right faction, there will be rather significant overlap there. A single bad unit does not break a list, and a single good unit does not make a list.
Anyway, another thing, not to be personal: If your opponent is going to "enjoy teaching you a lesson" pounding you down for trying to field a good list, you are playing with the wrong people. If you're legitimately trying to win, I at least will be more than happy to help you out and offer suggestions to improve after playing you. Play with nice people, and be a nice person.
I believe there are a lot of misconceptions and false equations here.
First off, "fun list", "fluffy list", and "good list" are by no means mutually exclusive. My Sisters list is both fun and good. So is my Imperial Guard list.
Second, the basics of the game are not that hard to learn. There's a lot, yes, but most of it is minutae. Understand your list, inside and out. After every battle, think about the enemy list you faced, and try to figure out how it works, and think about how you can better face it.
Third, please, please, please don't be a "casual at all costs" guy. I was like that once. It's not a moral high ground, it's a pit I was standing at the bottom of shouting curses at those who were actually willing to put in the effort to climb out.
With regards to people teaching a new player a painful lesson, I agree with you, but I have seen people do it, and it isn’t pretty. I also agree you shouldn’t be a ‘fluff at all costs’ or a ‘casual at all costs’. But I do think you should be a ‘fun at all costs’ player - which can mean sacrificing the win for an army theme, and equally sacrificing a theme for a better chance to win.
I think just about any unit can be made to work (outside of a face smashing tournament setting) with practice. I disagree that it’s easier to start with strong units and add fun units - though you’re right in saying it’s not that black and white and there is significant overlap there. A weak unit can be made to be effective in a non-tournament setting with practice, but you’ll struggle to come to love a competitive unit you just don’t like the look of. I for instance love Terminators and Chainsword-wielding Crusader Squads - I’m currently running 10 and 30 of them respectively. They are not efficient units, but with practice and a bit of forethought the Crusaders have become the main heavy lifters of my army, and armies that can’t pile on the mortal wounds generally lack the firepower to shift 10 storm shielded Terminators. I’ve turned units I love into a solid enough base to add the odd competitive unit to for a bit more punch, and I love my army to bits because it’s full of angry punchy black armoured psychopaths.
ShaunyP, with regards to Black Templars, Katherine is right - you can get some serious work done by using their Chapter Tactic to re-roll charges off teleporting Terminators or Jump Pack Vanguard Veterans. Between re-rolls from their Chapter Tactic, re-rolling one die with the Command Re-Roll stratagem and having multiple units dropping in at once you can get pretty good odds of getting something into close combat the turn they arrive. My current preferred tactic is to use my army’s ranged firepower to clear the softer ‘screen’ units (those units your opponent is using to surround their important stuff to keep you away) for the first and maybe second turn. Then once I’ve punched a big enough hole I have several hard-hitting elite close combat units arrive at once 9” away and go for the charge.
I reckon you could make a solid army using Black Templar Chapter Tactics with a front line consisting of some Terminators (look into Assault Terminators - those buggers are nasty) and Vanguard Vets, with a back line of heavy firepower - Devastators, Predators and/Dreadnoughts to taste. A cheap Captain (and/or Lieutenant) for re-rolls. For the close combat guys, look at Chaplains (with Jump Packs / Terminator Armour so they can keep up with the squads) - they don’t give re-rolls for shooting but allow you to re-roll all failed hit rolls, not just 1s.
That should leave you a good slug of points for a ‘midfield’. This is where your troops go, and they’re kind of a ‘cleanup’ role. Your big heavy hitters do the bulk of the damage to your opponent’s hardest targets, so these guys’ role is to shred the softer stuff, take objectives and finish enemy units off. It really depends on how you want to play. You can be super-aggressive like I am, slamming the entire midfield into your opponent once your heavy assault hitters have tied them up. Alternatively, you can play the tactical application of maximum force game, keeping a little bit of distance and concentrating medium-ranged firepower like plasma guns and bolters on specific targets. As I said, it depends on how you want to play.
An example list might broadly look like this:
Front Line
Chaplain in Terminator Armour (for the re-rolls)
Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields (king hitters and tough to kill)
2x Vanguard Veteran Squads with Chainswords (little harassment units to tie up your opponent’s shooting)
Back Line
Captain (and/or Lieutenant) with something like a Master-Crafted Bolter and Lightning Claw (more re-rolls, and can help out if your back line gets charged by the enemy)
Devastator Squad with Lascannons
Predator with Lascannons
Venerable Dreadnought
Mid Field
Captain and Lieutenant (for bulk re-rolls) with some nasty close combat gear
2 7-man Crusader Squads with Chainswords and a Meltagun, Power Sword and Sword Brother with Power Sword in each squad (for the follow-up punch to the front line)
Land Raider Crusader (for lots and lots of bullets)
A third Crusader squad, with a heavy weapon, for claiming objectives
OR
4 Rhinos
4 Crusader Squads armed as above
High Marshal Helbrecht and a cheap Lieutenant
These are examples of how you could fit out the aggressive style. They give you a nice mixed army that you can add or subtract units from for style or competitiveness as you prefer. These are to give you an idea of what a 2000 point army might look like - you don’t need to get there straight away but it’s nice to have a goal to aim for. If you wanted to play the slightly less aggressive version you could take the latter midfield example, replace one Rhino/Crusader Squad pair for a Scout Squad or two, a third Crusader Squad swapped for a Sternguard Veteran squad and the remaining Crusader Squad be armed with bolters and a heavy weapon. That’s the great thing about a Crusader Squads, they can be armed however you like. Plus the Black Templars Chapter Tactic lets you have a few nasty assault units getting in close without having to build your whole army around close combat.
Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.
Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.
So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.
Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.
Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.
The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.
You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.
Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.
I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.
Not negative, honest.
Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off.
List the units, and name some games where you lost to marines, playing something other than marines yourself, where these made an impact against you, in 8th edition.
Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off.
List the units, and name some games where you lost to marines, playing something other than marines yourself, where these made an impact against you, in 8th edition.
Marines get their work done by stacks of rerolls turning mediocre units into effective ones. I recently took the following to a fairly competitive tournament and went 3-1-2:
Helbrecht, Emperor’s Champion, Lieutenant, Cenobyte Servitors and 10 close combat Crusaders in a Land Raider Crusader
10 close combat Crusaders in a Rhino
10 close combat Crusaders in a Rhino
10 THSS Terminators
Terminator Chaplain
Twin Chainfist Relic Contemptor
Quad Las Predator
The sum total of my shooting is a bunch of small arms from the Land Raider and Rhinos, two Heavy Flamers on the Dread, sidearms on the infantry and 4 Lascannons. All of that list’s bite is in its assault units. It is effective because, as Katherine says, they can be leveraged effectively. When in range of Helbrecht and the Lieutenant, those Terminators (with a 3CP Stratagem in effect) put out 42 Str10 AP-3 D3 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s and 2s and rerolling 1s to wound. The Dread swings 4 times at Str16 Ap-4 D4 rerolling all hits and 1s to wound. The basic Crusaders put out a combined 60 Str 5 attacks hitting on 3s rerolling everything and 1s to wound. Helbrecht himself puts out up to 7 Str 6 Ap-3 DD3 attacks hitting on 2s with rerolls and rerolling 1s to wound and the Champion puts out up to 5 Str 8 Ap-3 DD3 attacks hitting on 2 and rerolling everything. Yeah, nothing in there is particularly scary on their own but the sheer reliability of high-quality attacks makes them dangerous.
First of all, apologies if I'm just in half cocked here, I've read the majority of the first page and skimmed the rest so I'd imagine whatever I say has largely been covered but in the event it hasn't I thought I'd just add my bit.
The best advice I have received with wargaming as a hobby in general is to start slow and just take it easy. There are certain items you will need to get started, much the same as any hobby but I believe people have already given advice on the books front etc.
As you're starting fresh and new to the hobby I'd suggest, as you mentioned yourself, would be to start small with a HQ and 2 x troop choices. This will give you the chance to get some models built and painted, review the rules and then sink your teeth into some introductory games.
After you've played a few games and wrapped your head around the rules you may decide "well, I like having marines at my core but they really could do with some heavy support" and from there you may decide you like the aesthetics of the Predator or that you simply love the idea of Space Marine grade artillery and as a result opt for a Whirlwind.
I've found that it's best to build slow as it will allow you to avoid a backlog, grow into more varied and advanced rules and progress at a pace which suits you.
Depending on what your local community is like, you may even find players willing to lend you use of a predator <insert other unit here> for a game or two while you're both in store.
Finally when it comes to larger models, vehicles etc. it may well be worth looking into magnetising weapon options. You'll often find various guides for doing this as it's a good way to get the most out of your investment.
Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off.
List the units, and name some games where you lost to marines, playing something other than marines yourself, where these made an impact against you, in 8th edition.
I've done the described to other players. That's why I bring Sisters Seraphim in my list, for the express purpose to trying to lock up a heavy gun unit.
I haven't had as many opportunities with my Space Wolves, because I rarely use them, but I have taken a liking to Wolf Guard. I do get the feeling that we're just worse Stormtroopers, but I get that feeling about everything, SoB Dominions included, 'cause Stormtroopers. Anyway, back to Wolf Guard, who are the Space Wolves version of Vanguard and Sternguard together, I've found to be fairly fun. Right now, I'm theorizing Storm Bolter + Chainsword, for 18PPM and a CP gets me a pretty nasty unit.
Martel732 wrote:I can't imagine how you that list gets anything done against the IG players I have to deal with.
I don't think you can leverage that list against elite-style lists. Not enough shooting, melee is too weak in 8th.
I'm not sure how you can say that. I've entered into CQC with my own Dominions and Immolators, which are decidedly not CQC troops, for the express purpose of denying shooting to Leman Russ Tanks, Land Raiders, Razorbacks, etc.
Close Quarters is hilariously strong this edition, since you can fall back at will. The charging unit no longer has to actually possess the ability to kill the target in melee, it just needs the ability to not die.
Because it only saves you from the units you actually touch. The workflow is CQC unit assaults chaff unit -> chaff unit dies or falls back -> beta strike from the remaining gun line kills your CQC units.
The best advice at this point is give the game a try, and talk to people in your meta.
If you're in Martel's meta, you're not going to have any fun. You're going to get destroyed. Even if you took the most OP netlist.
If you're in my meta, a Captain with any kit and 2xTac squads with any legal config will get you a fun little game.
Every meta is different. And there's nothing to be gained by optimizing for top tournies before you've had a chance to see if you like the game.
Side note:
For CC Marines, I'd actually still put Boltguns on the Tacs and give Sarge a CCW. Combi/special/heavy are optional (but i think make it more fun.
The point is to shoot with the boltguns first, while getting close for the assault.
Against shooty, like Guard, you advance on them, taking losses while inflicting losses, until you're in CC range, then charge. You need to close before they kill too many of your guys.
Against choppy, like Orkz, the point is to shoot enough of the Orkz before they get to you that you can win the CC. You can even countercharge - charge their units before they charge you, so you can kill more of them before all their Boyz get in. Or, once they get a unit in with one of yours, if it survived, charge into that CC with everything that can.
Against combined arms, you need to adjust what winds up opposite what, and ensure you're getting close to their shooty, while not letting their choppy get close to your shooty.
A cheap CC captain (Teeth of Tera or just a power weapon) is nice for this, because he can back up the Tac squad(s) when CC happens. He's there to support.
The reason for boltguns is because they do their work in the prelude to CC. And with a CCW on Sarge, you only lose half the not-impressive attacks - you still get all the powerful attacks the Sarge puts out.
So, even when I play my Marines more choppy than shooty, I like boltguns on them over chainswords. Your answer for volume is to ensure more of your guys are part of the fight and fewer of theirs are. If you can have 2 10man Tac squads fight one squad of Boyz while the other isn't in CC yet, you're going to do much better.
Martel732 wrote: Because it only saves you from the units you actually touch. The workflow is CQC unit assaults chaff unit -> chaff unit dies or falls back -> beta strike from the remaining gun line kills your CQC units.
You're pretending that the CQC unit doesn't have guns. My Wolf Guard have Storm Bolters and my Seraphim are dual-wielding Bolt Pistols.
To be honest, I'm actually pretty happy with the Storm Bolter+Chainsword Wolf Guard as assault units, at least in theory. The Chainswords are free, so I don't feel bad if I don't make my 9" on turn 1.
Seraphim I really like as assault units. Act of Faith gets them 24" and they have FLY to jump the screens.
But I'm getting away from vanilla marines. I think Black Templar Vanguard Veterans with twin bolt pistols can probably make a very good showing for themselves. Drop in, shoot something, charge something. The enemy now has to deal with them, so they're going to get shot. If they die, well, they were only 80 points, if even one lives you can absolutely catch a tank on round two.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Did I actually read someone trying to recommend double Bolt Pistols on Vanguard?
Yes. I'm away from my index right now, and don't own the standard SM codex anyway, is that not legal?p
I don't think it's bad. They kill about 4 GEQ each phase with re-rolls, which, for 80 points isn't bad. I think 2x Bolt Pistol is better than Pistol-Chainsword. At some point the unit becomes too expensive yes?
Martel732 wrote:You can't jump good screens. That's the whole point of screens.
Well, otherwise drop troops would be unbelievably broken.
There are several ways to deal with screening infantry.
Yet you just talked about jumping over the screen.
What are these several ways? Because All the BA and BT players are getting crushed because we can't get past 400 pts of guardsmen. Physically get past them. Screens win in the movement phase. They win without firing a shot, and they win before I get to shoot.
The assault marine box should have everything you need to equip a pistol/chainsword crusader squad, this can be supplemented by either devastator, tactical, or sternguard parts depending if you want those special weapons. Of course, you'll also need scouts to form the basis of your newbies if you want to take them in full-sized units.
For the same reason, assault marines with normal backpacks were great for Charcharodon Tacticals too, back when they could do it.
Martel732 wrote:Yet you just talked about jumping over the screen.
What are these several ways? Because All the BA and BT players are getting crushed because we can't get past 400 pts of guardsmen. Physically get past them. Screens win in the movement phase. They win without firing a shot, and they win before I get to shoot.
Seraphim can to some degree, depending on deployment pattery, because they move 24" instead of arriving via deep strike. Deep-striking units cannot.
Also, I'm not entirely certain why you can't kill 400 points of Guardsmen. That's only 100 guys, it shouldn't be hard to clear a path with your guns. And, of course, you can reach over it with your mid-range guns.
It is VERY hard. You need to play against it often to really understand the absurdity. T3 5+ for 4 pts is good. Really good. Realize you've only got about two turns before the IG has slagged your entire marine list.
Martel732 wrote: It is VERY hard. You need to play against it often to really understand the absurdity. T3 5+ for 4 pts is good. Really good. Realize you've only got about two turns before the IG has slagged your entire marine list.
I do/did. I haven't really had a problem, especially because most people I play with tend to be using russ-tanks over manticores because they have a lot of the former and less of the latter. There's also not enough Sentinel screening.
I'm not entirely certain how the IG is destroying the entire marine list in 2 turns. I get the impression that, from all these descriptions, the IG has like 2 or 3 times as many points worth of stuff, or has full support while the marines are all alone.
I run most of my units with as little upgrading as possible beyond what's necessary for the unit to do the job I envision for it.
Question, at risk of becoming off-topic, what are you running?
I'm not entirely certain how the IG is destroying the entire marine list in 2 turns. I get the impression that, from all these descriptions, the IG has like 2 or 3 times as many points worth of stuff, or has full support while the marines are all alone.
Just look up the standard AM list that has been winning nearly every tournament.
And it's not just IG. That assault marine list would get rocked by 25+ dark reaper lists. They don't even need Soulburst, they can just be craftworld lol.
Or how about chaos superfriends? Your 2+/3++ point sink terminators die to smite just as fast as everything else, and they are still going to struggle to clear brimstones.
It's no secret at this point what success looks like in 8th edition.
I will add though to what others have said - in a casual environment you can run melee marine lists. We don't know what your meta is like. We don't know what the people you play with are like. I can tell you, from personal experience, friends who started with melee armies either quit or switched armies. Not saying that will happen to you, OP, but it does happen. I think you'll have more fun playing a shooting list in 8th edition. And since you're learning, and building a collection, why not start with something that will be a bit more favored by the current game?
Martel732 wrote: It is VERY hard. You need to play against it often to really understand the absurdity. T3 5+ for 4 pts is good. Really good. Realize you've only got about two turns before the IG has slagged your entire marine list.
I do/did. I haven't really had a problem, especially because most people I play with tend to be using russ-tanks over manticores because they have a lot of the former and less of the latter. There's also not enough Sentinel screening.
I'm not entirely certain how the IG is destroying the entire marine list in 2 turns. I get the impression that, from all these descriptions, the IG has like 2 or 3 times as many points worth of stuff, or has full support while the marines are all alone.
I run most of my units with as little upgrading as possible beyond what's necessary for the unit to do the job I envision for it.
Question, at risk of becoming off-topic, what are you running?
I've tried a bunch of stuff in 8th. I'm just spamming lascannons atm. Because 400 pts of guardsmen turns off 2K of BA assault tech.
Martel732 wrote: It is VERY hard. You need to play against it often to really understand the absurdity. T3 5+ for 4 pts is good. Really good. Realize you've only got about two turns before the IG has slagged your entire marine list.
I do/did. I haven't really had a problem, especially because most people I play with tend to be using russ-tanks over manticores because they have a lot of the former and less of the latter. There's also not enough Sentinel screening.
I'm not entirely certain how the IG is destroying the entire marine list in 2 turns. I get the impression that, from all these descriptions, the IG has like 2 or 3 times as many points worth of stuff, or has full support while the marines are all alone.
I run most of my units with as little upgrading as possible beyond what's necessary for the unit to do the job I envision for it.
Question, at risk of becoming off-topic, what are you running?
I've tried a bunch of stuff in 8th. I'm just spamming lascannons atm. Because 400 pts of guardsmen turns off 2K of BA assault tech.
How about plasma inceptors with CA? Or just regular inceptors. I heard they got a significant price drop (haven't picked up chapter approved yet).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Did I actually read someone trying to recommend double Bolt Pistols on Vanguard?
Yes. I'm away from my index right now, and don't own the standard SM codex anyway, is that not legal?p
I don't think it's bad. They kill about 4 GEQ each phase with re-rolls, which, for 80 points isn't bad. I think 2x Bolt Pistol is better than Pistol-Chainsword. At some point the unit becomes too expensive yes?
Martel732 wrote:You can't jump good screens. That's the whole point of screens.
Well, otherwise drop troops would be unbelievably broken.
There are several ways to deal with screening infantry.
It's legal. It's more the matter that you suggested it as being worth anything.
Perhaps we have a miscommunication: I said some time ago, before I started defending individual units, to field a strong shooting core augmented by threatening melee.
I also have no experience with Eldar. I've seen a lot of Tyranids and Imperial Guard of varying levels of efficiency, and a whole damn lot of Space Marines, but only faced Dark Eldar once.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Did I actually read someone trying to recommend double Bolt Pistols on Vanguard?
Yes. I'm away from my index right now, and don't own the standard SM codex anyway, is that not legal?p
I don't think it's bad. They kill about 4 GEQ each phase with re-rolls, which, for 80 points isn't bad. I think 2x Bolt Pistol is better than Pistol-Chainsword. At some point the unit becomes too expensive yes?
It's legal. It's more the matter that you suggested it as being worth anything.
For 80 points, they kill about a squad of guardsmen a turn, and are an immediate concern, at least if backed up with a strong mid-range shooting presence. This isn't bad. It's not the strongest thing ever, but I think it can be used fairly successfully.
Double bolt pistols would be shooting out on say a unit of 5, 10 shots followed by a charge for 11 CC attacks they both do same str same damage so say in a full turn they assuming they dont die, will be 32 attacks.
vs
pistol chain sword which would be 5 shots, 16 attacks and in the opponents turn is another 16 attacks so 37 attacks over the turn.
Desubot wrote: Double bolt pistols would be shooting out on say a unit of 5, 10 shots followed by a charge for 11 CC attacks they both do same str same damage so say in a full turn they assuming they dont die, will be 32 attacks.
vs
pistol chain sword which would be 5 shots, 16 attacks and in the opponents turn is another 16 attacks so 37 attacks over the turn.
and pistols are effected by cover.
I'm not interested in the opponent's turn, since the opponent will fall back and perforate them. There's 21 attacks either way, and 2x pistols gets 5 more than pistol-sword if it fails the charge.
Anyway, I think we passed the point of anything useful for SM@500-1000 long ago. I'm bad about rising to people.
Desubot wrote: Double bolt pistols would be shooting out on say a unit of 5, 10 shots followed by a charge for 11 CC attacks they both do same str same damage so say in a full turn they assuming they dont die, will be 32 attacks.
vs
pistol chain sword which would be 5 shots, 16 attacks and in the opponents turn is another 16 attacks so 37 attacks over the turn.
and pistols are effected by cover.
I'm not interested in the opponent's turn, since the opponent will fall back and perforate them. There's 21 attacks either way, and 2x pistols gets 5 more than pistol-sword if it fails the charge.
Anyway, I think we passed the point of anything useful for SM@500-1000 long ago. I'm bad about rising to people.
So if I go black Templars, can I just use their codex but paint my army my own way, even if they look nothing like templars? Also where in the codex mentions their charge tactic as I can’t find it.
Your chapter can use the rules for any force it represents.
So if you go BT, then decide later you want to play BA or UM, you can change that.
One caveat is that Crusader Squads don't port over perfectly. But Boltgun Crusaders are Tacs, Chainsword Crusaders are ASM, and Neophytes are Scouts if you do change to another chapter.
Marines are Marines are Marines. A Marine with a Boltgun could be an UltraMarine, Salamander, Blood Angel, or Space Wolf or really any chapter Tac Marine. Or a CSM Marine.
If you create your own chapter (I'm a big fan of that), it's up to you how they fight. How Codex-compliant are they? Do the skuk about? Are they master craftsmen? Are they on a crusade?
Martel732 wrote: I've been playing BA models as marines with no chapter tactics, so sure.
Well you're getting red thirst.
I watched a battle report the other night. It wasn't a competitive game, but a squad of Sanguinary Guard murdered a squad of Khorne Berzerkers, that fought first.
I don't think BA will ever beat Imperial Guard, but it's not like they're alone in that regard. But, I could see BA being very competitive against Eldar, and Tyranids.
Martel732 wrote: Of course Khorne berzerkers are chumps when they don't charge. THey're just meqs. My last game, I crippled them with SCOUTS.
I though he said the zerks fought first.
Oh, I misread it. Sanguinary guard are probably the last guys zerkers want to fight, I agree. All those AP 0 attacks. And they won't live to get their round 2 fighting.
The Zerkers had Chain Axes, and yes they did charge. In reality the Sanguinary Guard could be good. They have high mobility and will be charging with 3D6.
But it all depends on cost. And you already know they'll be more expensive than Death Company, whatever Death Company end up costing.
