Now that Chapter Approved is now just a glimmer in the eye of many players I thought I would return to the topic about paying for rules such as CA and the codex (more the data sheets for units). However, this isn't a thread where i sit here and rant into the void! I want to start with a blank slate and not say whether I think it is good or bad that we pay for additional rules. I want you guys to tare out each others throats so potentially the sacrificing might bring down a chaos god and reveal some kind of wisdom from the mess.

Although, to have a discussion, I need to have a leaping off point with a few potential things we can all debate as a community (basically topics I want you to keep in mind or discuss).

1. How much orginal content was in CA?
2. How much of CA do you use?
3. GW have been bringing out lots of FAQ (with a big one recently) for free.
4. How do other GW games handle rules in comparison to 40k?
5. What improvement did your codex give you over the index, do you think it was worth it and did you read any of the lore in your codex?

Full disclosure: I did not buy CA but I do own a few codecies from different editions even for stuff I don't main. Sometimes it is just to read the lore.

In addition, this thread was inspired by the recent words of a game developer in a video my friend showed mel thengame developer listed a bunch of things he believed should never be charged for and a few of those items were things GW does charge for. Again, not saying I do or do not agree (not sure I know the answer myself) but might be fun to discuss. Maybe might even learn something.

I like hardback codexes so I'm happy to pay for those. With CA I'm happy that GW charge for that too. I think of it like an expansion to the game.

So like you I want to turn up to a game with the BRB, my codex and optionally CA.

It's actually the free content I'd like changed. All of the errata and FAQs ought to be searchable online rather than spread across a hundred PDFs.

I wish GW would hurry up and fix more stuff so that I can buy more armies. I didn't buy CA because none of it was particularly relevant to my armies.

No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I wish GW would hurry up and fix more stuff so that I can buy more armies. I didn't buy CA because none of it was particularly relevant to my armies.

Unless you're buying Grey Knights or playing a hypercompetitive meta I'm not sure what's stopping you. Most armies besides GK are good. Also wouldn't it be better to buy the things you want now before they get fixed and there's a rush on them, resulting in a lack of stock that won't be fixed for weeks?

On topic: Nnnnah. But I won't pay for anything unless I absolutely have to due to my budget. I got the 8th Tyranid codex but thats more of a tradition since I own every Nid codex since 2nd Ed. All my other armies are fine for now with pdf versions since the current codexes (eapecially GK and AdMech) feel more like placeholders.

It is a miniature game. I want to spend my money on new miniatures, paints and terrain. All rules should be free to download and get online updates a few times a year or so.

Absolutely not. I'd even like to have completely free rules for my miniatures

Release more kits and allow more combinations via kitsbashing or conversions, that's how I would happily invest my money in more GW stuff. Not on more/better rules.

We already pay over the odds for the rule books as is we should not have to pay more for fixes.

It's their fault rules are wrong not ours.

CA for me was absolutely worth it for the missions. I do think the points changes in CA should've been a free pdf instead. With a game as big as 40k and a change as big as 8th I expect they'll need quite a few of these minor point/rule updates (in fact, I don't think 40k will or even can ever be "finished"). I think these tweaks should be free, while expansions like the CA missions can be charged for.

I am really happy with their rate of faq/errata nowadays btw. Stuff like the Trygon Tunnel rule being practically unusable for 3 editions should be a thing of the past now.

Personally no, I wouldn't be happy paying for GW to make improvements.

I've gotten my money's worth out of the Index books I've bought. They're out of date now but everyone I play against uses them so it's still fair and it's a lot of fun. I've really been enjoying 8th Ed.

Minor point changes and rule changes don't really bother me but I can see why it'd be important for competition.

The odd FAQ to fix a typo should always be free. I don't want to pay to have GW's mistakes fixed for me.

Paying extra for something that should have been there in the first place?

No
If I buy a car with a set of tires I won't pay extra to get a working set of tires a month later because the original ones were broken


This is NewGW with Nu40k and the game has still the same problems as 15 years ago
Why should I trust them (and give them money) that their next big update will solve this?

Just want to add something a few years ago a person i knew left GW (he quit because it wasn't working out for him or something). He told me GW was pushing the sales of rule books over models and was even giving special bonuses to store staff who sold more rules than models. That was years ago so things might have changed or it could be a lie/overemphasis from an employee but something to think about.

Personally I think GWs approach to fixing rules and points cost is disgusting. The whole argument they had for 8th edition was that it would simplify things, less books etc. Now what we're seeing is regular, major changed to codexes and major rule books that require either CA and / or FAQ print outs.

GW should offer a digital download with every book purchase. As rules get updated, the digital downloads should also be updated. It annoys me that they rushed out the Necron Codex with a major error by incorrectly categorising Deathmarks and Lychguard as troops - something that was clearly not checked before being sent to print and yet they then issue an FAQ 2 weeks later without even so much as an apology to those who bought the book - which isn't bloody cheap!

Only thing I'll credit GW with is there customer service for models bought. Any issues, they quickly resolve the matter - it's just a shame this approach does not apply to the rules team.

 Peregrine wrote:
And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

I think this is an important point. I, too, sat down to read the fluff in my new book, only to find that most of it was just copied and pasted from my much older book.

I don't see the point in paying premium prices for hardback books when a lot of the content is just copy-pasted from previous ones. I'd rather just buy the actual rules and read my old books if I want the fluff.

I brought CA and I like the new missions. The rest of the book was lacking in content I thought. I will buy CA 2018 depending on the content, but it's very likely.

For me I don't really purchase things because I need them or what have you, especially in this hobby. I buy them because I love having the stuff and because it hits me right in the nostalgia bone.

I gotmtold all the missions in CA we're just compy and pastes from older editions. Could someone correct me?

 lolman1c wrote:
Just want to add something a few years ago a person i knew left GW (he quit because it wasn't working out for him or something). He told me GW was pushing the sales of rule books over models and was even giving special bonuses to store staff who sold more rules than models. That was years ago so things might have changed or it could be a lie/overemphasis from an employee but something to think about.

Been saying this since 6th edition don't know how people can miss the obvious.

People can keep using old models for decades not everyone feels the need to update, but you have to buy the rules to play and those they can endlessly cycle the books with only minor changes to justify it.

I think that it's poor show to pay £30 for a Codex (or £50 if you'd like a fancy collector's edition), only for a significant amount of rules inside it to change and become void. I'd much rather if GW would just put out a Codex when it's all been tested and ready; I believed that the Indexes were there to let them do that while people could play, and while they made their money off selling the Indexes. It'd be better if we could skip Indexes entirely to have fully revised Codexes, but I'd certainly prefer it to having to pay for an Index, then a Codex, then a book to fix the Codex.

I have a couple of this edition's collector edition Codexes, and I mostly bought them because they're pretty pieces, but I do want to use them from time to time as well, and I don't fancy paying for what is essentially a proofread of something I already paid a considerable sum for.

 General Annoyance wrote:
I think that it's poor show to pay £30 for a Codex (or £50 if you'd like a fancy collector's edition), only for a significant amount of rules inside it to change and become void.

This 100%.

Much like a video game, I don't mind paying for expansions (i.e. CA). However, paying for every little rule is a bit... uhm... lame?

I'd gladly pay for a rules subscription if it meant they dedicated more staff to it's support.

Isn't the AoS app like 0.99p a month or something? Hell that's £12 a year I would gladly pay! Freaking hell, I'd probably still buy the codex as well for my main army!

Would I pay for patches to my games, no, would I pay for MODS, no, would I pay for cosmetic DLC or content clearly removed to be charged as DLC later, nope, would I pay for large DLC that has been well made and worth the asking price, yes.

This is how I take GW, the last chapter approved was not worth the asking price, does that mean the next one won’t be? I will judge that when I see it m, either way I won’t pay for patches to a game that doesn’t work, and 40k is just that for me at the moment, others may disagree of course.

GW's rules distribution is still stuck 15 years in the past. Peregrine is right here, the codex fluff is sparser than it's been in the past, and the rules themselves are ever to be in flux.

It's a cumbersome system and the value for money is terrible. GW needs to move to either a free or subscription based distribution model. Although no more than $5 a month for full access, and a competent in-house army builder.

Did I buy Chapter Approved? No. Did I snap a picture on my phone of the points updates for my armies from a buddy's copy? Yes. I don't need the missions, and I saw people discuss the minor rules updates online.

Like others, if the new Chapter Approved has quality content in it, I'd be fine buying it - but if not, I'll do the same next year. However, in all things, I will say I prefer an updated and (hopefully) more balanced game, even if it means the BRB (also didn't buy that), and my codices (did buy those) are slowly changed into obscurity. I keep my own updated document which addresses all rules changes and points changes.

So, I'll say the end result is a net positive, even if GW's methods are clunky and bizarre. Having seen this kind of constant change coming, I was a big proponent of the codices being $20 and softback...since we knew from the beginning we'd likely be changing information in them. They should have been cheaper and people would have been more comfortable writing in them and marking them up, etc.

I agree. I was actually excited when I learned the Index would be like £15. Then I remember going in store and asking to buy the marine codex like a mo th later and choking on my shock to hear it was double the price!

It's also interesting to know they could and have charged £15 for rule books but continue not to. Also, their prices confuse the hell out of me. £30 for marine codex that doesn't have much more than other stuff that ost £25. And the price of the digital books also cost £25 (which is a shock because digital work comes with literally no production costs). Yet, after doing some AoS research, most of their books are about £15-20 and hardback. If prices were similar there wouldn't be much complaints but the almost random pricing highlights something.

 lolman1c wrote:
Also, their prices confuse the hell out of me. £30 for marine codex that doesn't have much more than other stuff that ost £25. And the price of the digital books also cost £25 (which is a shock because digital work comes with literally no production costs). Yet, after doing some AoS research, most of their books are about £15-20 and hardback. If prices were similar there wouldn't be much complaints but the almost random pricing highlights something.

Most Codexes are between 100 and 150 pages for £25. Codex: Space Marines is 208 pages for £30 so actually much better value.

eBooks would be fine at the same price as the hardbacks if only they were updated with errata.

 lolman1c wrote:
Yet, after doing some AoS research, most of their books are about £15-20 and hardback. If prices were similar there wouldn't be much complaints but the almost random pricing highlights something.

Only reason why Age of Sigmar prices are cheaper is because they need more people playing the game. They have enough people playing 40K they know they can be old school and keep prices high and people will still buy.

At first I thought the format would be good. Now that we have to buy for point adjustments I am not liking. As many said that should be given free as Errata since that is what it is. We shouldn't have to pay for Errata. Missions and other stuff added to the game, yes I am fine paying for, but Errata? No. That just means GW can't do their job properly again sadly. And then charging people for the job they couldn't do. At least with the Big FAQ 1 the point adjustments are there in Errata, or is it in FAQ.

One more thing. Coming back to the hobby, one thing I don't like is I am always worried about making WYSIWYG. Instead of every 2 or 4-5 years of our armies being invalidated, it can be 2 weeks, or twice a year now our armies being invalidated. So now I just make Rule of Cool minis and if someone has a complaint against them, I will just not play them. That said, this is better than what GW did before. At least they are trying now. So if mistakes are made in the process, so be it. BUT DON'T CHARGE FOR IT. All point price adjustments need to be FREE.

*edit*

I just read the title said improvements. I believe the poll is misleading a bit. Yes I will gladly pay for improvemnts if it wasn't done on purpose like how we get DLC or expansions that should have been in the game originally like lots of video games do. But if it's more like Witcher 3 was done, then yes I would gladly pay for improvements.

What I don't want to is pay for point adjustments. Those should always be free through Errata.

Only willing to pay for new rule books/codices. Never going to pay for Chapter Approved-style changes to the game.

Maybe in the future we’ll have a true living ruleset, and they’ll figure out how to both charge us appropriately and a good digital format for it. I’d be happy to pay for that.

I'm only really happy to pay for new editions. GW doesn't do fixing very well so if something is like 8th where it's bad enough I don't want to play then I won't be interested until the next overhaul.

 lolman1c wrote:
I agree. I was actually excited when I learned the Index would be like £15. Then I remember going in store and asking to buy the marine codex like a mo th later and choking on my shock to hear it was double the price!

It's also interesting to know they could and have charged £15 for rule books but continue not to. Also, their prices confuse the hell out of me. £30 for marine codex that doesn't have much more than other stuff that ost £25. And the price of the digital books also cost £25 (which is a shock because digital work comes with literally no production costs). Yet, after doing some AoS research, most of their books are about £15-20 and hardback. If prices were similar there wouldn't be much complaints but the almost random pricing highlights something.

They used to be that much. Back in the day of softcover codices, which also made them a lot easier to carry with you. But GW got greedy and went to hardcover for everything, bumping the cost by something like 60% overnight.

Given that most the other gaming systems I play more or less have free rules and hardcopys are optional buy ins for convenience / fluff I'm still a little surprised 'nu' GW is largely sticking to print rules that without fail get errata multiple time, CA is a major slam to the danglys as its maybe 1/3 of a White Dwarf worth of content for 4 times the cost

The quality of the hardcover Codexes is excellent, as is the quality of their miniatures. Charging top dollar is fine, but for that you do expect the rules to last the whole edition (perhaps with a few minor tweaks). Rendering Codices and WYSIWYG armies obsolete mid-edition doesn't fit with that pricing model.

Well, most of the CA stuff I don't mind paying for, but I think points changes should be free.

I think they need free "points cost" pdfs online, like printable sheets for each faction that have all the points on them.

Don't the points changes reflect some of the new rules though?

Books are all FAQ'd up weeks after release. Too many "opps tee-hee" rules "mistakes".

Why bother buying "current rules" knowing they will be "oops fixed" a few weeks later after sales go flat on the "oops teehee op'd mistake"

How many months did it take for hive tyrants sales to go flat?

With all this tomfoolery, GW have reduced the value of thier printed rules to approximately £0.00.

Pancakey wrote:
GW have reduced the value of thier printed rules to approximately £0.00.

For casual players the other way of looking at it is to keep using the original rules and not bother with the updates...

I'll pay for new editions, and the codices I need.

I'd prefer to not pay for rules at all.

I won't pay for fixes, updates, and tweaks. New content depends on how good, useful, or if it should have been included in the base book.

 deathwinguk wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
GW have reduced the value of thier printed rules to approximately £0.00.

For casual players the other way of looking at it is to keep using the original rules and not bother with the updates...

You will need to start and epic journey to "house rule" all the "mistakes" that they didnt "notice". Before release.

 lolman1c wrote:
Isn't the AoS app like 0.99p a month or something? Hell that's £12 a year I would gladly pay! Freaking hell, I'd probably still buy the codex as well for my main army!

Yea. I still pay for it even though i'm not playing AoS right now, because I want them to keep working at it.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Isn't the AoS app like 0.99p a month or something? Hell that's £12 a year I would gladly pay! Freaking hell, I'd probably still buy the codex as well for my main army!

Yea. I still pay for it even though i'm not playing AoS right now, because I want them to keep working at it.

I'm thinking about getting into the game later this year. So what do you get with the app? Is it basically a whole free rule book and codices for only £12 a year? Because that sounds too goo to be true from GW.

 deathwinguk wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
GW have reduced the value of thier printed rules to approximately £0.00.

For casual players the other way of looking at it is to keep using the original rules and not bother with the updates...

As causal player, you buy the old books for cheap second hand to get the fluff and play with the index

I begrudgingly pay. If they put something out that's wrong then it should be a simple and free fix. If you pay for every little thing they put out then they have a very efficient way of milking money out of you. I'd rather spend my money on minis and paint, at least that's something tangible I then own and has value. Plus I can enjoy them. So short of major updates like edition changes or a hardback codex I prefer to avoid paying. In my group of like 10 players, 2 of us have a rule book. 1 has a chapter approved. So since I have one of the BRBs I just ask my friend with the CA If I can check stuff in there and vice versa. I'd rather the rules were free, but that's unlikely to ever happen.

 kodos wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
GW have reduced the value of thier printed rules to approximately £0.00.

For casual players the other way of looking at it is to keep using the original rules and not bother with the updates...

As causal player, you buy the old books for cheap second hand to get the fluff and play with the index

I have never heard of anyone doing this.
If you're a casual player you get the new rules and use the FAQ just like anyone. But your opponents don't throw a hissy-fit if you forget something had been FAQ'd

 Sim-Life wrote:

I have never heard of anyone doing this.
If you're a casual player you get the new rules and use the FAQ just like anyone. But your opponents don't throw a hissy-fit if you forget something had been FAQ'd

I know several groups who do it just like that until everyone has a Codex
As causal gamer what reason is there to buy a Codex when an Index with the free point adjustments and FAQ's is enough to play especially when others in your group don't have gotten their Codex yet.

Of course there is the advantage for WAAC but than the others in your group won't play with you at all

 Sim-Life wrote:

 kodos wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:

Pancakey wrote:
GW have reduced the value of thier printed rules to approximately £0.00.

For casual players the other way of looking at it is to keep using the original rules and not bother with the updates...

As causal player, you buy the old books for cheap second hand to get the fluff and play with the index

I have never heard of anyone doing this.
If you're a casual player you get the new rules and use the FAQ just like anyone. But your opponents don't throw a hissy-fit if you forget something had been FAQ'd

Yes that's what I meant - casual players could decide not to bother with updates to the rules in CA. FAQ and errata relate to the existing rules they have of course.

Of some relevance is the fact that a group really only needs 1 instance of CA and the BRB between it's members.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Isn't the AoS app like 0.99p a month or something? Hell that's £12 a year I would gladly pay! Freaking hell, I'd probably still buy the codex as well for my main army!

Yea. I still pay for it even though i'm not playing AoS right now, because I want them to keep working at it.

I'm thinking about getting into the game later this year. So what do you get with the app? Is it basically a whole free rule book and codices for only £12 a year? Because that sounds too goo to be true from GW.

Well, the unit scrolls and an army builder. You don't get all the army traits and such, but those are pretty straightforward.

 lolman1c wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
Isn't the AoS app like 0.99p a month or something? Hell that's £12 a year I would gladly pay! Freaking hell, I'd probably still buy the codex as well for my main army!

Yea. I still pay for it even though i'm not playing AoS right now, because I want them to keep working at it.

I'm thinking about getting into the game later this year. So what do you get with the app? Is it basically a whole free rule book and codices for only £12 a year? Because that sounds too goo to be true from GW.

I’m not up to date on it, but yes, basically. You are still missing a few rules related to the army, but you get updated warscrolls all in one place. I assumed GW would take this to the next logical step with 40k and implement a more easily digestible living ruleset, but instead they’ve actually doubled down on how they’ve always done their rules, nd continue to release expensive, nearly worthless hardcover books for an ever expanding and splintering array of forces. Hard to understand.

I would pay A LOT to get orks as point-efficient as top teir armies.

I guess my money is safe.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I would pay A LOT to get orks as point-efficient as top teir armies.

I guess my money is safe.

The Ork Boy is one of the most point-efficient units in the entire game.

It's just everything else that's a problem.

 Fafnir wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
I would pay A LOT to get orks as point-efficient as top teir armies.

I guess my money is safe.

The Ork Boy is one of the most point-efficient units in the entire game.

It's just everything else that's a problem.

Well, no. A list of 150+ boyz is counter-meta to elite armies, but against almost everything else in 8th, most of them are just 6 point wound counters.

I like the concept of CA and of campaign books. It's a little frustrating that the 8th. edition codizes are pretty weak concerning the fluff (i.e. 90% are copy/paste from 7th. ed and prior).
But if GW comes out with campaign books again that feature factions I play I'd buy those. Wrath of magnus was pretty cool, scenarios are always nice and the best part about 40K.

I remember from my collection of older 90s and early 2000s my 40k "expansions" and I do have to say it was a lot better than modern 40k. They had entire narrative campaigns you could fight in with extra data sheets for new characters specific to that campaign.

As I'm not thrilled with 8th edition I'm not willing to buy any rules for it.

I came to the realisation that Games Workshop operates on a subscription principle. Rather than having a monthly subscription, you have a yearly / bi-yearly subscription where you pay for a 'new' codex or rulebook to be able to play.

If you allow your 'subscription' to lax (ie: don't buy the latest codex or edition), you're cast out of the kingdom. You can play locally with friends at home but you can't rejoin the main game until you re-sub.

I'm very much in the camp of casual play and only occasionally buy a codex / edition rule set. The longer-term style of 'pay to play' doesn't appeal to me and so I've ended up playing games produced by other designers who have a different business model.

The codices and rules will never be complete for GW. They will always have deliberate inbalances that require a 'new' update that will apparently address some issues while adding others. It's how they justify the gaming tax.

If a team of 8 scientists can work out the interactions for a proteomic pathway that involves thousands of interactions between huge populations of proteins within five years... surely GW can balance a fraction of the variables within 25+ with the teams it has had.... well, assuming they wanted to in the first place.

What's worse is I'm a Historian so I see some of the laziness and what we're paying for. Inlove to read old GW books and much of their "new" rules and fixes are just rehashed older rules. Also I have an idea if how old 40k is. And I have done a joke map where I prove we are closer to actually making the mars cult in the same amount of time GW has tried to balance 40k.

However, what you said about older editions players being kicked out is 100% true and annoys me the most as a Historian. I would love to play 2nd, 3rd, ect editions for historical reasons but it's almost impossible if nobody in your area even knows what 40k was until the last few years.

To use computer game analogy, I'm fine with paying for "expansions", but "patches" should be free. The CA has those two mixed up and I do not approve of that.

I don't understand why GW doesn't adopt a living rule book format, which would be a digital version that is continually updated to reflect rule changes. Upon buying a physical book, you would receive a registration code, and having registered your book, you would have access to the digital "living rule book". This sort of thing is easy to adopt, especially since the digital books already exist.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

This.

 Zingraff wrote:
To use computer game analogy, I'm fine with paying for "expansions", but "patches" should be free. The CA has those two mixed up and I do not approve of that.

I don't understand why GW doesn't adopt a living rule book format, which would be a digital version that is continually updated to reflect rule changes. Upon buying a physical book, you would receive a registration code, and having registered your book, you would have access to the digital "living rule book". This sort of thing is easy to adopt, especially since the digital books already exist.

They don't adopt it because they don't understand it they are still stuck in the 90's.

They are like your elderly parents buying tech then looking at you to set it up, they have a vague idea how it should work but no clue how to implement it.

hobojebus wrote:

 Zingraff wrote:
To use computer game analogy, I'm fine with paying for "expansions", but "patches" should be free. The CA has those two mixed up and I do not approve of that.

I don't understand why GW doesn't adopt a living rule book format, which would be a digital version that is continually updated to reflect rule changes. Upon buying a physical book, you would receive a registration code, and having registered your book, you would have access to the digital "living rule book". This sort of thing is easy to adopt, especially since the digital books already exist.

They don't adopt it because they don't understand it they are still stuck in the 90's.

They are like your elderly parents buying tech then looking at you to set it up, they have a vague idea how it should work but no clue how to implement it.

Joke is that in the 90s some companies would send you a free patched floppy disk of their game if you signed up for it.

Oh I remember buying games from computer fair's getting them home installing them just to have them not work, then you'd have to wait a week to get that 3 1/4 disk.

One I most remember was a game called oni.

Of course it was pretty rare then to have such issues as things had to work out the box.

Now they rush it out and patch later.

Fekke I'm making myself feel old.

I'm not voting in the pole. I don't see a response that fits what I think about it. I don't like this nearly living rule book thing they have going on. I play about 20 games a year now days and I spend a lot of time keeping up with what's going on but not enough time actually playing so it messes me up a fair bit.
I also don't care for the way competitive list have created this situation. Yes a lot of what's been going on could have happened at any place other than a tournament but I think it would be fa more rare. But what ever.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

Every ounce of this. The only thing I would add is that we only need CA for things like new units and scenarios.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

Every ounce of this. The only thing I would add is that we only need CA for things like new units and scenarios.

To say new rules are needed paying for CA was a bit of a weird thing for me. Really points and new rules should have been a free pdf. I know people just say share the rules or coppy it online but 1. It's illegal to get a copy of it illegally online. 2. If you share from a friend you're still giving money for something you already paid for like less that 6 months ago.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No, I am not happy and I handle it by not buying GW's rules. If I'm going to pay money for something I expect it to be close to perfect, and for any minor flaws that slip through to be fixed for free. GW fails to meet this standard. Over and over again they publish trash and then expect even more money to fix it. No thanks.

And no, I don't read the "fluff" in my codex. It's a stripped-down version of previous codices, and has nothing to offer. If that's what GW is going to sink to then I'd rather have cheaper rules-only codices as an option.

Every ounce of this. The only thing I would add is that we only need CA for things like new units and scenarios.

But there are more way to play than just the way YOU play. Just because you don't want to use the custom land raider rules doesn't mean no one does.

I'd also address Peregrine'a part of the quote but that line if thinking has been refuted so many times at this point there'a no point.

I, too, would like to have all the things I want for free.

 Corrode wrote:
I, too, would like to have all the things I want for free.

It's not about getting free stuff it's about not paying for fixes to a book you already paid out for.

Gw who already charge more than is reasonable are trying to double dip that's why people are annoyed.

 Corrode wrote:
I, too, would like to have all the things I want for free.

It has nothing to do with that. I don't think any of us are asking for free stuff, just for continued support of a product we've already invested in.

It's about what you should reasonably expect from an entertainment company of this size, and how other game companies treat their customers when updating their rules. This is about industry standards, and GW isn't living up to them.

Most other companies, when put in this situation, will make their rulebooks free to download from their website, or something to that extent.

 Sim-Life wrote:
But there are more way to play than just the way YOU play. Just because you don't want to use the custom land raider rules doesn't mean no one does.

What's your point? Nobody is complaining about GW releasing new rules like the custom Land Raiders for money, that's genuine new content. The actual complaint is GW charging money for fixes (point adjustments, FAQs/errata to rules issues, etc) to a broken product instead of getting it right in the first place and giving free updates to fix anything that somehow slips through. "More than one way to play" is not an excuse for selling a defective product and then charging even more money for the fix.

(Well, maybe some of us are less than amused by space marines once again getting exclusive access to the shiny new thing while GW forgets that every other army exists, but that's a separate issue.)

I'd also address Peregrine'a part of the quote but that line if thinking has been refuted so many times at this point there'a no point.

What has been refuted? That GW should produce high-quality rules and not charge money for fixing their own defective product? Or that GW's recent codices have had a lot of their former fluff stripped out and are not worth buying if you want fluff? Because neither of those have been refuted at all.

GW promises that "this time" they have improved/fixed it therefore it is worth buying.
So in the last year they improved the game 4 times (core rules with Index to fix 7th, Codex books to fix the Index, CA and the big FAQ to fix all together) and we had to pay 3 times

So why should we pay for the next "improvement" that is is none

 kodos wrote:
GW promises that "this time" they have improved/fixed it therefore it is worth buying.

I'm pretty sure they've never said that.

Would love to gather a big list of actual GW quotes thougf. Reminds me of the game Destiny 1 and why I never purchased it. I found a qoute saying it would be supported for 10 years! And there were reviewers yelling and people in the comments to shut up because the game would be supported for 10 years. Then 1 year later destiny 2 comes out and the first game loses all support.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

 lolman1c wrote:
Now that Chapter Approved is now just a glimmer in the eye of many players I thought I would return to the topic about paying for rules such as CA and the codex (more the data sheets for units). However, this isn't a thread where i sit here and rant into the void! I want to start with a blank slate and not say whether I think it is good or bad that we pay for additional rules. I want you guys to tare out each others throats so potentially the sacrificing might bring down a chaos god and reveal some kind of wisdom from the mess.

Although, to have a discussion, I need to have a leaping off point with a few potential things we can all debate as a community (basically topics I want you to keep in mind or discuss).

1. How much orginal content was in CA?
2. How much of CA do you use?
3. GW have been bringing out lots of FAQ (with a big one recently) for free.
4. How do other GW games handle rules in comparison to 40k?
5. What improvement did your codex give you over the index, do you think it was worth it and did you read any of the lore in your codex?

Full disclosure: I did not buy CA but I do own a few codecies from different editions even for stuff I don't main. Sometimes it is just to read the lore.

In addition, this thread was inspired by the recent words of a game developer in a video my friend showed mel thengame developer listed a bunch of things he believed should never be charged for and a few of those items were things GW does charge for. Again, not saying I do or do not agree (not sure I know the answer myself) but might be fun to discuss. Maybe might even learn something.

I'll be honest, our group bought two copies and we each chipped in 2 dollars to the cost to do it. PERSONALLY, I think these updates should be free. Skip the book from and just PDF it on their website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lolman1c wrote:
Would love to gather a big list of actual GW quotes thougf. Reminds me of the game Destiny 1 and why I never purchased it. I found a qoute saying it would be supported for 10 years! And there were reviewers yelling and people in the comments to shut up because the game would be supported for 10 years. Then 1 year later destiny 2 comes out and the first game loses all support.

Well to be fair this was the intent of the company. But at that time they hadn't tasted the nastiness that comes from suckling at the tit of Activision. Once they latched on, it was only down hill from there.

I mean, we are talking about a company that made a world war two game in which 1 out of 4 German soldiers at D-Day were wielding Russian smgs....

 deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

That's quite a bit different than the quote above.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

That's quite a bit different than the quote above.

Indeed. It does show that GW thought they had it nailed though. I don't have enough experience to say either way, but it seems like many on here would disagree with that statement based on comments in other threads.

 deathwinguk wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

That's quite a bit different than the quote above.

Indeed. It does show that GW thought they had it nailed though. I don't have enough experience to say either way, but it seems like many on here would disagree with that statement based on comments in other threads.

They were trying to sell a new edition. It surprises me that people will use marketing in order to try and hold GW to task for simply being a business. Like would saying

We think we got it okay. I mean it's not perfect but we think we did an alright job. We'll fix it as we go though because it's not amazingor anything.

sound AT ALL professional to you?

Remember Finecast? Why would you ever take GW at their word after that? I defend GW a lot but I don't just blindly believe everything they say.

I've bought both General's Handbooks to date. I haven't bought CA yet as I haven't really needed it. But, yeah, I don't mind paying for a living ruleset for a game. That said, unless they do an exceptional job of providing new missions and/or new ways to play, I do not want anything else in the book other than rule changes and new point values to make sure the cost stays as low as possible.

SG

Aparntly, the new app for 40k will require us to actually buy every individual factions codex digitally for us to use it?! Wtf gw... Aos get the same thing for 0.99p and we have to re buy our codex for a list builder? I hope this is just a rumour!

 Sim-Life wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

That's quite a bit different than the quote above.

Indeed. It does show that GW thought they had it nailed though. I don't have enough experience to say either way, but it seems like many on here would disagree with that statement based on comments in other threads.

They were trying to sell a new edition. It surprises me that people will use marketing in order to try and hold GW to task for simply being a business.

Like I said, I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing with GW, just providing a quote from 8th edition's release as requested. Having said that I see nothing wrong with the community reviewing a product against it's marketing description having bought it.

 deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

I loved them saying that because it was so obviously going to be a failure. Who thinks that's a good thing to say?

pm713 wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

I loved them saying that because it was so obviously going to be a failure. Who thinks that's a good thing to say?

The marketing department.

I wonder if you can kinda say that maube it's false advertising?

 lolman1c wrote:
I wonder if you can kinda say that maube it's false advertising?

No because everything they said about 8th is subjective.

Well yes... everything is "use able" (even a shoe box could be a landraider). So they got us on that end!

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
But there are more way to play than just the way YOU play. Just because you don't want to use the custom land raider rules doesn't mean no one does.

What's your point? Nobody is complaining about GW releasing new rules like the custom Land Raiders for money, that's genuine new content. The actual complaint is GW charging money for fixes (point adjustments, FAQs/errata to rules issues, etc) to a broken product instead of getting it right in the first place and giving free updates to fix anything that somehow slips through. "More than one way to play" is not an excuse for selling a defective product and then charging even more money for the fix.

(Well, maybe some of us are less than amused by space marines once again getting exclusive access to the shiny new thing while GW forgets that every other army exists, but that's a separate issue.)

I'd also address Peregrine'a part of the quote but that line if thinking has been refuted so many times at this point there'a no point.

What has been refuted? That GW should produce high-quality rules and not charge money for fixing their own defective product? Or that GW's recent codices have had a lot of their former fluff stripped out and are not worth buying if you want fluff? Because neither of those have been refuted at all.

Thank you for getting that answer in the queue for me, I was a little late getting back in this thread. And I do mean that sincerely.

If Microsoft put out Xbox updates that forced you to rebuy the games you play, or to pay for patches to that game, I'd like to think people would get quite upset. I'm starting to doubt that, as it seems that hobby budget money is more disposable now than ever.

Imagine if you bought a fine cast model with a defective arm and called up customer service. Imagine if customer service response is that they will replace that defect but they will charge you money for it. This guy says no fething way. I'd walk away from ever being a customer again. There's a reason why the hobby aspect is all I concern myself with and the game itself is a very far distant secondary. I still haven't dropped a single penny on any books for 8th. I'm waiting for the finished product while watching others pay not just once but multiple times over to beta test an unfinished product. My patience far exceeds their shareholder's patience by orders of magnitude.

How common were 'big FAQ' things before 6th edition?

Speaking from 3rd on up, there were typically FAQs and errata that would come out during an edition. They'd even have PDF's on their site back in the day that you could print off and paste over the part in the books they corrected.

I'm definitely not liking the 8th Edition method of paying for the same rules over and over. I play Necrons. To play Necrons with the latest rules, I've had to purchase...

1. The new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook ($60)
2. Index Xenos 2 ($25)
3. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
4. Codex Necrons ($40)

That's $160 worth of rules for my single faction army. Each book above has content not related to playing the game and/or related to playing the game but not related to playing my faction. In other words, I'm not getting anywhere close to $160 worth of value out of these books because I'm only using a small portion of the books. In addition, I need four PDF FAQ/Errata docs. It's something of a juggling act to assemble a list at this point.

Should GW be charging for...

1. ...the core rule book? I think GW should absolutely charge for the new edition's core rule book. I do think they should have made a fluff free, smaller format version available for people who (don't want to pay so much/don't want to carry a huge book around/aren't interested in the fluff/etc).
2. ...the Index books? I don't think they should have charged for the Index books. That material should really have been free... especially given the stated intent of replacing them ASAP with Codexes. I was forced to pay for multiple factions worth of datasheets just to get the Necron sheets. Those sheets now have zero value with a Codex having been released.
3. ...the Codex books? Sure. GW should charge for these. It would be nice to have a smaller format, soft cover version for portability's sake, but I get that GW is committed to only releasing fancy, expensive books.
4. ...the Chapter Approved annuals? I'm torn here. The only thing I care about in these books are the updated rules and updated points tables. Updated rules and point costs belong in FAQ/Errata docs and not in paid materials. I do think GW should charge for the other content in the book as it's basically expansion material.

So... I think to play a Necron army, I should only have to buy the core rules and a Codex. I shouldn't have had to pay for an Index (free PDF instead) and I shouldn't have to pay for annual points changes and rules tweaks (free PDF instead). And speaking of free PDFs... for the love of all that's good in this world, create a SINGLE document with all of the FAQs/Erratas broken out into sections by faction. I'm tired of having to hunt through a whole array of documents to answer a single rules question.

 Sim-Life wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 deathwinguk wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/22/breaking-news/

"This is the game you know, but improved, faster, bloodier and better. The rules team have gone to great lengths to make sure that every unit, weapon, vehicle and character has its role – everything will be useful, and every miniature will have a place in your army."

I loved them saying that because it was so obviously going to be a failure. Who thinks that's a good thing to say?

The marketing department.

It's just so obviously untrue it's not even good marketing.

 Kriswall wrote:
I'm definitely not liking the 8th Edition method of paying for the same rules over and over. I play Necrons. To play Necrons with the latest rules, I've had to purchase...

1. The new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook ($60)
2. Index Xenos 2 ($25)
3. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
4. Codex Necrons ($40)

That's $160 worth of rules for my single faction army. Each book above has content not related to playing the game and/or related to playing the game but not related to playing my faction. In other words, I'm not getting anywhere close to $160 worth of value out of these books because I'm only using a small portion of the books. In addition, I need four PDF FAQ/Errata docs. It's something of a juggling act to assemble a list at this point.

Should GW be charging for...

1. ...the core rule book? I think GW should absolutely charge for the new edition's core rule book. I do think they should have made a fluff free, smaller format version available for people who (don't want to pay so much/don't want to carry a huge book around/aren't interested in the fluff/etc).
2. ...the Index books? I don't think they should have charged for the Index books. That material should really have been free... especially given the stated intent of replacing them ASAP with Codexes. I was forced to pay for multiple factions worth of datasheets just to get the Necron sheets. Those sheets now have zero value with a Codex having been released.
3. ...the Codex books? Sure. GW should charge for these. It would be nice to have a smaller format, soft cover version for portability's sake, but I get that GW is committed to only releasing fancy, expensive books.
4. ...the Chapter Approved annuals? I'm torn here. The only thing I care about in these books are the updated rules and updated points tables. Updated rules and point costs belong in FAQ/Errata docs and not in paid materials. I do think GW should charge for the other content in the book as it's basically expansion material.

So... I think to play a Necron army, I should only have to buy the core rules and a Codex. I shouldn't have had to pay for an Index (free PDF instead) and I shouldn't have to pay for annual points changes and rules tweaks (free PDF instead). And speaking of free PDFs... for the love of all that's good in this world, create a SINGLE document with all of the FAQs/Erratas broken out into sections by faction. I'm tired of having to hunt through a whole array of documents to answer a single rules question.

This is a big way GW is making the numbers these days.

 Kriswall wrote:
I play Necrons. To play Necrons with the latest rules, I've had to purchase...

1. The new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook ($60)
2. Index Xenos 2 ($25)
3. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
4. Codex Necrons ($40)

That's $160 worth of rules for my single faction army.

...

In addition, I need four PDF FAQ/Errata docs. It's something of a juggling act to assemble a list at this point

It's not good is it. Does the codex replace the index?

The Codex does not replace the index as it only contains units that currently have a model

So you either get the Index or don't use models you own

 kodos wrote:
The Codex does not replace the index as it only contains units that currently have a model

So you either get the Index or don't use models you own

Right

I was fortunate enough to come back to WH40k after the 8th edition SM codex was available so I didn't have to fork out for an index. I'm personally ignoring CA for now too.

The joke is we're all to blame (apart from me who has only actually ever purchased the 1 codex for marines (I wated) and index for orks. (I got the rule book basically given to me). You all purchased the books and have shown GW they can get away with it!

On a side note I do feel (my chaos friend especially) we were tricked by GW. Although they never said it, they implied the index would be the main way to play for about a year before they worked on balances and really got a hang for 8th ed. Like a month or 2 later his codex comes out...

 lolman1c wrote:

On a side note I do feel (my chaos friend especially) we were tricked by GW. Although they never said it, they implied the index would be the main way to play for about a year before they worked on balances and really got a hang for 8th ed. Like a month or 2 later his codex comes out...

Nobody got duped by GW. Did he get to play with his army for two months? Mission accomplished.

The community is really, really good at making things up and misleading itself.

I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

 deviantduck wrote:
I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

$20/mo would be obscene. Like, absolutely, mind blowingly insane. $5/mo at the absolute highest, maybe. But that's pushing it when the rules themselves are already just a platform to get you to buy more stuff in the first place.

 Fafnir wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

$20/mo would be obscene. Like, absolutely, mind blowingly insane. $5/mo at the absolute highest, maybe. But that's pushing it when the rules themselves are already just a platform to get you to buy more stuff in the first place.

I disagree. How much does every codex and rulebook cost right now? Assuming every faction had a codex out, you're looking at what.. over $1000 in books? They last 3 years per edition, so $333 annually for all content? $240 a year isn't that outrageous.

They could setup and app similar to how audible.com does it and if you drop the subscription you can't open the files anymore. I'm sure there will be pirating, but that exists now, so that's a wash. It would be refreshing to be able to open any book at any time on my phone and have all of the most updated and recent point costs, errata, and faqs already rolled in and updated. That is absolutely worth $20 a month to me.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:

On a side note I do feel (my chaos friend especially) we were tricked by GW. Although they never said it, they implied the index would be the main way to play for about a year before they worked on balances and really got a hang for 8th ed. Like a month or 2 later his codex comes out...

Nobody got duped by GW. Did he get to play with his army for two months? Mission accomplished.

The community is really, really good at making things up and misleading itself.

Snoke Theories come to mind.

And Ork Players have gotten a good value out of the index, compared to others.

 deathwinguk wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
I play Necrons. To play Necrons with the latest rules, I've had to purchase...

1. The new Warhammer 40,000 rulebook ($60)
2. Index Xenos 2 ($25)
3. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
4. Codex Necrons ($40)

That's $160 worth of rules for my single faction army.

...

In addition, I need four PDF FAQ/Errata docs. It's something of a juggling act to assemble a list at this point

It's not good is it. Does the codex replace the index?

Sort of yes and sort of no. I had an army when 8th released. The choice was to either buy the Index and then also buy the Codex OR just not be able to use the army until the Codex released. If I were buying into Necrons today, I would not need the Index to play with updated rules. You only need to buy an Index after a Codex has released if you want to use some of the older units and wargear configurations that didn't make it into the Codex. Everyone who had an army when 8e dropped would have to buy their Index and subsequently buy their Codex.

It's even worse if you have a multi-faction army. I have a friend who has a very fluffy Imperial army featuring mainly Ultramarines with a very small allied group of Grey Knights (something like a Terminator HQ and maybe 3 Paladins) as well as a small AdMech group. To play the army from when 8e dropped until now, he needed to buy...
1. The core rules ($60)
2. Index: Imperium 1 ($25)
3. Index: Imperium 2 ($25)
4. Codex: Space Marines ($50)
5. Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus ($40)
6. Codex: Grey Knights ($40)
7. Chapter Approved 2017 ($35)
That's $275 worth of rules to run his army. I realize he has multple factions in there, but 7e's army building encouraged multi faction armies. It's always going to cost more to run multi faction armies, but $275 is a lot to ask. 8e monetarily rewards single faction, but competitively rewards multi faction (re:Imperial Soup). It's a form of pay to win. If you're willing to spend more actual dollars on rule books, you'll potentially have access to more competitive options.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

$20/mo would be obscene. Like, absolutely, mind blowingly insane. $5/mo at the absolute highest, maybe. But that's pushing it when the rules themselves are already just a platform to get you to buy more stuff in the first place.

I disagree. How much does every codex and rulebook cost right now? Assuming every faction had a codex out, you're looking at what.. over $1000 in books? They last 3 years per edition, so $333 annually for all content? $240 a year isn't that outrageous.

They could setup and app similar to how audible.com does it and if you drop the subscription you can't open the files anymore. I'm sure there will be pirating, but that exists now, so that's a wash. It would be refreshing to be able to open any book at any time on my phone and have all of the most updated and recent point costs, errata, and faqs already rolled in and updated. That is absolutely worth $20 a month to me.

I'm telling you no one would pay 20$ a month for that.

Heck, even for 5$ a month I don't think many people would buy that suscription. 20$ a month can give you 2-3 suscriptions to other services like Netflix, World of Warcraft, etc... that give you much more value from your money.

if netflix best service is 14$ a month is for a reason.

 Galas wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I would prefer GW switch to a digital subscription system, $20-$30 a month that grants you access to all rules in a digital, constantly updated, interactive format. Then they could also sell hardbacks individually, as well, for the collectors.

$20/mo would be obscene. Like, absolutely, mind blowingly insane. $5/mo at the absolute highest, maybe. But that's pushing it when the rules themselves are already just a platform to get you to buy more stuff in the first place.

I disagree. How much does every codex and rulebook cost right now? Assuming every faction had a codex out, you're looking at what.. over $1000 in books? They last 3 years per edition, so $333 annually for all content? $240 a year isn't that outrageous.

They could setup and app similar to how audible.com does it and if you drop the subscription you can't open the files anymore. I'm sure there will be pirating, but that exists now, so that's a wash. It would be refreshing to be able to open any book at any time on my phone and have all of the most updated and recent point costs, errata, and faqs already rolled in and updated. That is absolutely worth $20 a month to me.

I'm telling you no one would pay 20$ a month for that.

Heck, even for 5$ a month I don't think many people would buy that suscription. 20$ a month can give you 2-3 suscriptions to other services like Netflix, World of Warcraft, etc... that give you much more value from your money.

if netflix best service is 14$ a month is for a reason.

I know half a dozen people that would because we sat around spitballing it. But pricepoint isn't the crux of the discussion here, it was the subscription service itself.

Yeah, I pay ~$14/mo for more shows and movies than I could ever consume in my lifetime. $20/mo for codex access would be absurd. It'd be enough to push me off of the hobby entirely.

 Fafnir wrote:
Yeah, I pay ~$14/mo for more shows and movies than I could ever consume in my lifetime. $20/mo for codex access would be absurd. It'd be enough to push me off of the hobby entirely.

To date since June last year, I've purchased all 5 indexes, all 4 FW indexes, 2 codexes, BRB, and CA. I'm $375 deep into rules for 8th edition. I'm about to buy another codex putting me at $425. Divide that by $20 and I've already paid a $20 subscription from the drop of 8th edition until this March 2019.

I don't think people realize how much we spend on the books, which aren't updated in a user friendly manner.

And that's still a stupidly high price to pay just to be able to spend more money on models. But at least up until now, the books were a one-time purchase. You can't seriously expect that price point every year would be reasonable just to participate.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Yeah, I pay ~$14/mo for more shows and movies than I could ever consume in my lifetime. $20/mo for codex access would be absurd. It'd be enough to push me off of the hobby entirely.

To date since June last year, I've purchased all 5 indexes, all 4 FW indexes, 2 codexes, BRB, and CA. I'm $375 deep into rules for 8th edition. I'm about to buy another codex putting me at $425. Divide that by $20 and I've already paid a $20 subscription from the drop of 8th edition until this March 2019.

I don't think people realize how much we spend on the books, which aren't updated in a user friendly manner.

Oh I know. I've been paying attention. I paid zero so far. I want a finished product first. If their current policy is to avoid achieving that it's no biggie to me I can wait another edition. As of 7th edition I had already taken up a new hobby/game; golf. I want to thank Geedubs for that. Addictive game.

40k 8th can go straight to hell. You need so many FaQs to play this burning tire fire.

Happy to stick with 30k for the moment.

Yeah even the idea of paying monthly for the poor quality rules makes my blood boil.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Yeah, I pay ~$14/mo for more shows and movies than I could ever consume in my lifetime. $20/mo for codex access would be absurd. It'd be enough to push me off of the hobby entirely.

To date since June last year, I've purchased all 5 indexes, all 4 FW indexes, 2 codexes, BRB, and CA. I'm $375 deep into rules for 8th edition. I'm about to buy another codex putting me at $425. Divide that by $20 and I've already paid a $20 subscription from the drop of 8th edition until this March 2019.

I don't think people realize how much we spend on the books, which aren't updated in a user friendly manner.

But surely you realise you're an exception rather than the rule.

Most people I'd imagine would just get the BRB (£30), CA (£20) and their Codex (£25-30). £75-80, With only the £20 repeating for the CA on a yearly basis. Even if they bought their appropriate Index or a 2nd Codex too it comes to nowhere near worth $20 a month.

I'd love them to offer a digital subscription. As long as it was good quality, with the revisions kept up to date. £5 a month is on the high side of what I'd pay, but it wouldn't surprise me if GW set it at that price.

It's so strange how people put value on different items and goods.

"£5 a month is on the high side."
"£20 a month is absolutely wild"

However if you go to a coffee shop and buy a latte and a sandwich, you spend more than £5.

How much is a regular book with no illustrations or anything apart from a nice cover, that you might read once and never look at again? £8.99 probably?

A pint of beer is £4.50 nowadays. And you would have more than one of those a month, I expect. Around one a day, for many.

The cheapest possible item of clothing is probably £5. What can you get for a fiver? A poor quality tshirt made in a bangladeshi sweatshop.

If you vape or smoke, you easily spend £20 a month - possibly a week - on inhaling stuff.

Etc.


Before people jump in to say "ah but I don't drink coffee, smoke, read books, wear clothes or any of those things" I am not offering conclusions here and YMMV but for me, the comparative value between a coffee or a rubbish t-shirt and a subscription to a rules service for a game I enjoy and that gives me pleasure is... an easy decision.

It's about value for money, not affordability.

GW's codex and rulebook prices are an entry fee to spend more money on models. Most companies would rather treat this as a loss leader.

When I buy that sandwich, I'm getting my money's worth of sandwich (unless I'm getting it from Tim's, as is usually the case, but that's kind of just the pain of existence right there). With GW's rulebooks, there's not a lot that I can do without spending more money, it's a gatekeeper. The content in it is pretty sparse otherwise, it exists almost solely to facilitate the models that I actually do want.

There seems to be a bit of disconnect here.

Broadly speaking there are two camps of people:
1) Those who believe that corrections to the rulebook should be free as they are amending something that was incorrect.
2) Those who believe that corrections should be paid for on top of the fee for the original book.

Here's an idea. Why don't GW provide the corrections and editing as a free PDF so that people who paid for the original book aren't being shafted and paying twice. Those people who want a physical booklet printed by GW have the option to buy a booklet for the cost of the printing materials.

There we go, case solved. Studio Tomahawk did this for SAGA2 and the corrections/editing of the Aetius and Arthur book. Rules for free as downloadable print-out. Physical copy provided by the company as a paid for item at cost-value = Happy customers.

 Wulfmar wrote:
There seems to be a bit of disconnect here.

Broadly speaking there are two camps of people:
1) Those who believe that corrections to the rulebook should be free as they are amending something that was incorrect.
2) Those who believe that corrections should be paid for on top of the fee for the original book.

Here's an idea. Why don't GW provide the corrections and editing as a free PDF so that people who paid for the original book aren't being shafted and paying twice. Those people who want a physical booklet printed by GW have the option to buy a booklet for the cost of the printing materials.

There we go, case solved. Studio Tomahawk did this for SAGA2 and the corrections/editing of the Aetius and Arthur book. Rules for free as downloadable print-out. Physical copy provided by the company as a paid for item at cost-value = Happy customers.

Corrections and editing are provided free of charge. You can find them here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

I was aware, but thank you for being helpful

I don't see myself buying another physical copy of a GW publication. Except AoS, they seem to have done it right, they disconnected statlines from costs completely, which is the right way to do it.

Digital content is the way to go. A rules subscription is the way to go.