My arguemebt is that at 8-9 points with the jump pack they’d be comparable in cost to scions, which they are worse than in every way. Their ability to tie down things in CC is rather pointless when scions will delete a unit instead of making a charge 50~% of the time with a reroll. Also, without their jump packs they literally cannot do anything useful. A guardsmen has better killing power when buffed with orders, and a better gun. Compare an assault marine to a fire warrior. A fire warrior has a vastly better gun and more synergy, and honestly is comparable in CC because they’re both useless in CC.

Convince me that they’re not a 5-6 point model that’s just overpriced.

That's what they're REALLY worth, but no one will admit it.

While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

So what are you going to to do with all the things that cost that much already? We getting 0.3333333333334pt models now?

I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

But it will certainly consist of Xeno, Martel and Marmatag arguing about how theyy are worse than units of IG, DE and CWE under circumstances that never happen and completely ignore other armies with similar roles and worse options

I'm fairly sure this thread is a troll attempt.

A good one. I'm betting 10 pages.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

Hey, assault marines are base 6 movement, just like a guardsmen, but lack movement orders. In fact, they need to pay 3 points to gain fly and extra 6 inches.

A guardsmen also has better shooting on top of better base mobility. I think them being 1 point cheaper (20%) for 1 less T and a worse save is reasonable. Also keep in mind, guardsmen are troops, which makes them far more useful even if their stats are a little worse.

Well, I'd be fine paying 10ppm for them, if they had 2W like they should.

They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

Bharring wrote:
Well, I'd be fine paying 10ppm for them, if they had 2W like they should.

This was the most disappointing thing for all Marines, in my opinion.

Every non-Scout should be 2W, Primaris+Terminators 3-4W and soforth.

 Billagio wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

But it will certainly consist of Xeno, Martel and Marmatag arguing about how theyre worse units of IG, DE and CWE under circumstances that never happen and completely ignore other armies with similar roles and worse options

Just because someone else’s car is on fire doesn’t mean my flat tire isn’t a problem.

Also, I play grey Knights and I think assault marines are worse than anything in my Codex. Assault marines literally are useless that you pay points for.

 Jaxler wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

Hey, assault marines are base 6 movement, just like a guardsmen, but lack movement orders. In fact, they need to pay 3 points to gain fly and extra 6 inches.

A guardsmen also has better shooting on top of better base mobility. I think them being 1 point cheaper (20%) for 1 less T and a worse save is reasonable. Also keep in mind, guardsmen are troops, which makes them far more useful even if their stats are a little worse.

I was assuming you were talking 5-6 points with the jump pack thus the bit about greater mobility. Yes I am aware that a guardsmen with orders will still be far faster, but that is with orders from another unit and when the guardsmen does that he cannot fire unless he is tallarn which is not Catachan or Cadian thus outside of a super heavy going all sneaky beaky like is an inferior regiment. Even on foot at 5-6 points they would still massively out perform every other option in that price range. They'd out melee orks, endure tau/guardsmen fire and then when they get in melee they will grind the other one down. They'd trade cost effectively with just about everything at that price range.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

They are worse than tactical in every area but mobility - mobility means donkey balls when you have 2 str 4 attacks. You are out damaged by 4 and 6 point models at that point. ASM are worth 9 points - tacticals 10. Done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Well, I'd be fine paying 10ppm for them, if they had 2W like they should.

This was the most disappointing thing for all Marines, in my opinion.

Every non-Scout should be 2W, Primaris+Terminators 3-4W and soforth.

Totally agree - then they would be worth the points we are paying.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

They are worse than tactical in every area but mobility - mobility means donkey balls when you have 2 str 4 attacks. You are out damaged by 4 and 6 point models at that point. ASM are worth 9 points - tacticals 10. Done.

Considering I value them at 10 or 11 points (with jump pack) we are not really disagreeing at all. Mobility always matters because it is what allows you to get to where you need to be and fly helps with this a great deal by allowing you to ignore vertical distances and enemy models. Yes an assault marine would be out damaged by an ork boy with a choppa, but has a 3+ save instead of 6+. Offensive output is not everything. Durability matters and contrary to belief not every single weapon in the game is a disintegration cannon.

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

I would do 10pts, cheaper than that and it would be to low.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

Hey, assault marines are base 6 movement, just like a guardsmen, but lack movement orders. In fact, they need to pay 3 points to gain fly and extra 6 inches.

A guardsmen also has better shooting on top of better base mobility. I think them being 1 point cheaper (20%) for 1 less T and a worse save is reasonable. Also keep in mind, guardsmen are troops, which makes them far more useful even if their stats are a little worse.

I was assuming you were talking 5-6 points with the jump pack thus the bit about greater mobility. Yes I am aware that a guardsmen with orders will still be far faster, but that is with orders from another unit and when the guardsmen does that he cannot fire unless he is tallarn which is not Catachan or Cadian thus outside of a super heavy going all sneaky beaky like is an inferior regiment. Even on foot at 5-6 points they would still massively out perform every other option in that price range. They'd out melee orks, endure tau/guardsmen fire and then when they get in melee they will grind the other one down. They'd trade cost effectively with just about everything at that price range.

Why shouldn't an assault marine go toe to toe with orks?

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

That sounds better, but then you see Storm Boys are 8 points (pending codex adjustments). That 3+ save (ignoring the BS difference) is worth way more than 1 point

Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

Really good gak post OP. This is going places.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

Hey, assault marines are base 6 movement, just like a guardsmen, but lack movement orders. In fact, they need to pay 3 points to gain fly and extra 6 inches.

A guardsmen also has better shooting on top of better base mobility. I think them being 1 point cheaper (20%) for 1 less T and a worse save is reasonable. Also keep in mind, guardsmen are troops, which makes them far more useful even if their stats are a little worse.

I was assuming you were talking 5-6 points with the jump pack thus the bit about greater mobility. Yes I am aware that a guardsmen with orders will still be far faster, but that is with orders from another unit and when the guardsmen does that he cannot fire unless he is tallarn which is not Catachan or Cadian thus outside of a super heavy going all sneaky beaky like is an inferior regiment. Even on foot at 5-6 points they would still massively out perform every other option in that price range. They'd out melee orks, endure tau/guardsmen fire and then when they get in melee they will grind the other one down. They'd trade cost effectively with just about everything at that price range.

Why shouldn't an assault marine go toe to toe with orks?

They should go toe to toe with Orks, but through quality versus quantity. A space marine should never be as a cheap as a standard ork boy. I understand the fluff and lore are seperate, but there is such a thing as taking it to the extreme when a space marine at 5 points is worth LESS than a mass produced ork boy. At 10 points an assault marine would be far more mobile being able to pick and choose their fights and trade to an ok level against ork boys due to their far superior save.

On a more serious note, I could see 11ppm tacs and 10 or 11ppm ASM pre-jetpack. 2ppm for jetpacks, probably. Would that actually put them in there place!

Not actually sarcastic.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

I would do 10pts, cheaper than that and it would be to low.

I know this is kind of a crazy but - catachan infantry out damage 9 point assault marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

No one saying they shouldn't be cheaper - they should be 3 -4 points cheaper.

You don't take ASM to krump sum'un. You take ASM to blindside someone. Charge that tank. Surround and charge from behind while your tacs charge from the front (good luck falling back from that). Pressure them to support their flanks or backfield.

ASM don't need to kill anything. They need to charge into CC against non-CC units, and not die too easily. They just cost too much right now to do that.

Bharring wrote:
On a more serious note, I could see 11ppm tacs and 10 or 11ppm ASM pre-jetpack. 2ppm for jetpacks, probably. Would that actually put them in there place!

Not actually sarcastic.

13 points for a model that does literally nothing except deepstrike?

Without a pack they’re literally a tac marine with a worse gun. Tac marines are already horrendously overcosted.

See, when you start a thread like this, it's really hard to tell when you're trolling. I almost responded.

 Billagio wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

But it will certainly consist of Xeno, Martel and Marmatag arguing about how theyre worse units of IG, DE and CWE under circumstances that never happen and completely ignore other armies with similar roles and worse options

Considering I play Tyranids and this would price Assault Marines the same as Hormagants or Gargoyles, i'm obviously not supporting this change.

But, your post is so garbled - it's like you were hit on the head with a lead pipe while writing it - that i'm not sure if you're insulting me or not.

Bharring wrote:
See, when you start a thread like this, it's really hard to tell when you're trolling. I almost responded.

I’m not trolling, I’m being slightly hyperbolic with the intention of jumpstarting discussion. I honestly think a 6 point assault marine is reasonable, because at 9 points with a jump pack they’d be comparable to scions but still vastly inferior.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

I would do 10pts, cheaper than that and it would be to low.

I know this is kind of a crazy but - catachan infantry out damage 9 point assault marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

No one saying they shouldn't be cheaper - they should be 3 -4 points cheaper.

Maybe the problem isnt points tho.... everything is good if points are low enough to make up for poor rules.

Look at the start of 8th, DE Razorflock spam won tournaments with T3, S3 melee units with 0 saves.

Making them a few points cheaper is a good start, but i'd rather them have a couple core rules changes.

As long as Aeldari Blades get AP-3, and Gaunts become 2ppm. Sounds perfect!

Bharring wrote:
As long as Aeldari Blades get AP-3, and Gaunts become 2ppm. Sounds perfect!

FFS, Hgants and Gargoyles should be 1pts cheap, when the Nids codex came out i email GW a letter about this and stressed my hate for them being so costly...

Kroot should be free then, right?

Jaxler,
Moar serioser now, ASM and Scions do very different jobs. ASM are bullies. Scions are podded threats. ASM typically can't make their charge on the turn the deepstrike, and so usually need to maneuver into position. But with 12" movement, can. Unfortunately, their current ppm makes them far to expensive for what they do. And so many other things do it better.

To better see the difference, consider what happens when Scions get to do their thing, but to a unit it can't kill, vs what happens with ASM. If you're shooting at a Rhino or a Tac Squad or a Reaper squad, Scions do their damage, then the target does it's thing. With ASM, once they get in, they might not do much damage. But the target needs to fall back. Which means no shooting (unless Fly or a stratagem or whatever).

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

I would do 10pts, cheaper than that and it would be to low.

I know this is kind of a crazy but - catachan infantry out damage 9 point assault marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

No one saying they shouldn't be cheaper - they should be 3 -4 points cheaper.

Maybe the problem isnt points tho.... everything is good if points are low enough to make up for poor rules.

Look at the start of 8th, DE Razorflock spam won tournaments with T3, S3 melee units with 0 saves.

Making them a few points cheaper is a good start, but i'd rather them have a couple core rules changes.

I totally agree with you. That's kind the idea for this gak post. LOL. If you make a trash unit cheap enough - it would be playable. Instead of an assault marine being a terror to small infantry (which is should be) their current trash rules being worth about 9 points is the only solution. Also -a unit like a witch - which is also terrible should also get some buffs to IMO. They should get a rule that they always fight first or something.

Yeah,... IDK why they dont just have better melee in general, some type of MoW ability, +1 more attack, or 2 out of 5 can take melee weapons, make them awesome not cheap!

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah,... IDK why they dont just have better melee in general, some type of MoW ability, +1 more attack, or 2 out of 5 can take melee weapons, make them awesome not cheap!

Or another solution is to make them 6 points - they are clearly not better than khabalites!

Kroot have a boltgun and 1 S4 attack in melee, lower leadership than Guard, a 6+ save, only move 7”, and lack Fly. Where does that leave them in a 6 point ASM world? 3 ppm?

As a Tyranids player I would rather the cost of other models went up than Hormagants, Termagants, and Gargoyles going down. We can already field an obscene amount of models at 2000 points, and it's not feasible to fill your list with them and get 6 turns in 2.5-3 hours. Dropping the cost of Gaunts to 2PPM would in essence require every Tyranid player run 3 squads of 30. 180 points for 90 bodies? Get out. This isn't fun for us Tyranids players, and it isn't fun for our opponents.

If you want to buff Tyranids there are plenty of good suggestions and possibilities, such as improving our HQ to troop synergy. The Broodlord is an overcosted piece of garbage that folds like a house of cards if something fights it. The Tervigon is a laugh riot of stupidity. Tyrants without wings are awful, and there's really only 2 ways to kit them despite the cornucopia of wargear choices. Let's also remember that our named characters are overcosted too. Old One Eye is flat out bad. The Swarmlord is meh. I could write a long rant about Tyranids but no one ever wants to talk about them. I would also talk about the psychic powers. Dominion is pathetic and no one ever uses it... Paroxysm and Onslaught are super situational. Where is our soulburst power or freaking warp time?

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

They are worse than tactical in every area but mobility - mobility means donkey balls when you have 2 str 4 attacks. You are out damaged by 4 and 6 point models at that point. ASM are worth 9 points - tacticals 10. Done.

Considering I value them at 10 or 11 points (with jump pack) we are not really disagreeing at all. Mobility always matters because it is what allows you to get to where you need to be and fly helps with this a great deal by allowing you to ignore vertical distances and enemy models. Yes an assault marine would be out damaged by an ork boy with a choppa, but has a 3+ save instead of 6+. Offensive output is not everything. Durability matters and contrary to belief not every single weapon in the game is a disintegration cannon.

You say that, but 3+ armor has become a liability in the costing of marine infantry because of such weapons.

Equal points of ASM and Kroot, after the Tau Commander has shot the ASM, the kroot win. So, obviously, Kroot should cost more ppm than ASM.

After all, every Tau list will have a Tau Commander.

 Billagio wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

But it will certainly consist of Xeno, Martel and Marmatag arguing about how theyre worse units of IG, DE and CWE under circumstances that never happen and completely ignore other armies with similar roles and worse options

Don't forget their lil buddy SF.

Bharring wrote:
Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

No gak, im saying that a 3+ save is worth more than 1 point

 Marmatag wrote:
As a Tyranids player I would rather the cost of other models went up than Hormagants, Termagants, and Gargoyles going down. We can already field an obscene amount of models at 2000 points, and it's not feasible to fill your list with them and get 6 turns in 2.5-3 hours. Dropping the cost of Gaunts to 2PPM would in essence require every Tyranid player run 3 squads of 30. 180 points for 90 bodies? Get out. This isn't fun for us Tyranids players, and it isn't fun for our opponents.

If you want to buff Tyranids there are plenty of good suggestions and possibilities, such as improving our HQ to troop synergy. The Broodlord is an overcosted piece of garbage that folds like a house of cards if something fights it. The Tervigon is a laugh riot of stupidity. Tyrants without wings are awful, and there's really only 2 ways to kit them despite the cornucopia of wargear choices. Let's also remember that our named characters are overcosted too. Old One Eye is flat out bad. The Swarmlord is meh. I could write a long rant about Tyranids but no one ever wants to talk about them. I would also talk about the psychic powers. Dominion is pathetic and no one ever uses it... Paroxysm and Onslaught are super situational. Where is our soulburst power or freaking warp time?

How else am i going to use all 100 gants, 90 hgants, 40 goyles, and 60 stealers in a 2k game then?

You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

Hey I'm down to bring an 8 knight list to a 2k game but damn do I feel sorry for ork and nid players against thatgame time turn clock

Do they sell table width brushes?

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

Hey I'm down to bring an 8 knight list to a 2k game but damn do I feel sorry for ork and nid players against thatgame time turn clock

Not everyone is on a time clock, what like 1% the players plays in tournaments? Most games are not on the tournament tables.

This is why ig is still crushing it in flgs.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

Hey I'm down to bring an 8 knight list to a 2k game but damn do I feel sorry for ork and nid players against thatgame time turn clock

Not everyone is on a time clock, what like 1% the players plays in tournaments? Most games are not on the tournament tables.

If your turn 1 takes more than an hour we will be having words about your play speed flg or not.

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

Hey I'm down to bring an 8 knight list to a 2k game but damn do I feel sorry for ork and nid players against thatgame time turn clock

Not everyone is on a time clock, what like 1% the players plays in tournaments? Most games are not on the tournament tables.

If your turn 1 takes more than an hour we will be having words about your play speed flg or not.

My turn doesnt, its like 15min dude, you never played with me, so stop acting like you know me. .. some of us know how to play hordes.

But there is a difference in rushing a game and sitting having a fun time with liked minded people, if i take 5min longer to talk to you and enjoy the game, whats wrong with that? If you cant enjoy a game with me, then why play with you?

Only if I get 1 pt guardsmen in my deathwatch lists.

Assault marines are just a weapon swap with tactical marines with a free deep strike option. They should be a point higher than whatever the tactical marines is.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Only if I get 1 pt guardsmen in my deathwatch lists.

Assault marines are just a weapon swap with tactical marines with a free deep strike option. They should be a point higher than whatever the tactical marines is.

Free Deep Strike option with that statline?
You aren't serious are you?

Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

 Marmatag wrote:
Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

gargs are pretty bad but what would you cost them? 5 points?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

gargs are pretty bad but what would you cost them? 5 points?

I'm not sure. The problem is dropping their cost to 5ppm kind of screws up Hormagants which are priced at 5ppm, and don't have access to wings.

My personal preference, again, is to increase the cost of most infantry & troops, rather than lower the cost of Tyranid troops. There are enough bodies already in the game at 2000 points. Just affect change on the ones that are way too strong.

Giving Gargoyles poisoned 4+ or poisoned 3+ weapons might be helpful. If i had to make a change that wasn't points based.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

gargs are pretty bad but what would you cost them? 5 points?

I'm not sure. The problem is dropping their cost to 5ppm kind of screws up Hormagants which are priced at 5ppm, and don't have access to wings.

My personal preference, again, is to increase the cost of most infantry & troops, rather than lower the cost of Tyranid troops. There are enough bodies already in the game at 2000 points. Just affect change on the ones that are way too strong.

Giving Gargoyles poisoned 4+ or poisoned 3+ weapons might be helpful. If i had to make a change that wasn't points based.

It wont mess them up at all tho, Hormas have more melee, better melee rules (6" pile in/consolidate) and moves a bit faster than Tgants, Goyles having Jump/DS and a gun is about as equal to Hgants, they should only be 1pt more for Fly over Tgants anyways. They really need to by 5ppm, 6ppm is to much. Yes i understand its 1ppm difference, but when you are talking about units like gants, 12 is always better than 10, when you are taking 100pts for 1 unit thats 20 vs 16, thats enough to gain the bonus now. Also they are NOT Troops, so Hgants and Goyles being 5ppm wont hurt each other.


Edit: the idea they can make other units -1 to hit is nice.. but in practice its rules bloat that will never work, you need to get the unit into melee, hit them in melee and kill wound something, then that unit is -1 to hit, most of the time theyw ill be -1 to hit against the goyles and just kill them with return fire, if you charge a knight you wont do wounds, 6's to wounds with 0ap... yeah ok gl, with 20 goyles you will do 0.7 wounds...... lol. Against Infantry like Cultist, IG, Orks, etc.., they will just not care b.c you are charging into hordes with a worst horde unit.

One way to show how bad Assault Marines are is to look at their Primaris equivalent, Reivers. ASM with Jump Packs (for Deepstrike) cost 80 points for 5 dudes, whereas Reivers with Grav Chutes (their Deepstrike gear) cost 100, but those 20 points get you a unit that can potentially actually do its job. I think giving Assault Marines a slight point decrease (from 13ppm to 10 ppm base) and giving them 2 attacks base would do wonders for making them a viable alternative to Reivers. TBH Reivers don't appear in a lot of top tier lists either, but to me they are what Assault Marines wish they were. I'm honestly not sure what else you could really buff on Assault Marines.

As for Tacticals, they should cost 11, not 13 per model. And Scouts should cost 9-10. Tacticals would still suck even at that point cost, but they would suck a little less. Marines in general are kind of struggling right now (I should know, I play Dark Angels), and our only real hope is that Chapter Approved gives us some kind of fixes (probably just going to be points adjustments though).

Edit for added point: Actually another thing that might help Marines, including Tacticals, Assault, and others, would be to bring the cost of most of the special and heavy weapons down. Plasma is okay, but Grav should be 12, Flamers should be 5, and Meltas should be 13. Multimeltas should be like 20, Heavy Flamers should be 12, Gravcannons should be 20. The other heavies are probably fine.

Negative, leave as is.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

gargs are pretty bad but what would you cost them? 5 points?

I'm not sure. The problem is dropping their cost to 5ppm kind of screws up Hormagants which are priced at 5ppm, and don't have access to wings.

My personal preference, again, is to increase the cost of most infantry & troops, rather than lower the cost of Tyranid troops. There are enough bodies already in the game at 2000 points. Just affect change on the ones that are way too strong.

Giving Gargoyles poisoned 4+ or poisoned 3+ weapons might be helpful. If i had to make a change that wasn't points based.

They would be a lot better if they could take spine fists. Lock a unit up and hit it with pistols and cc attacks. I also like the poison 4+ idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
One way to show how bad Assault Marines are is to look at their Primaris equivalent, Reivers. ASM with Jump Packs (for Deepstrike) cost 80 points for 5 dudes, whereas Reivers with Grav Chutes (their Deepstrike gear) cost 100, but those 20 points get you a unit that can potentially actually do its job. I think giving Assault Marines a slight point decrease (from 13ppm to 10 ppm base) and giving them 2 attacks base would do wonders for making them a viable alternative to Reivers. TBH Reivers don't appear in a lot of top tier lists either, but to me they are what Assault Marines wish they were. I'm honestly not sure what else you could really buff on Assault Marines.

As for Tacticals, they should cost 11, not 13 per model. And Scouts should cost 9-10. Tacticals would still suck even at that point cost, but they would suck a little less. Marines in general are kind of struggling right now (I should know, I play Dark Angels), and our only real hope is that Chapter Approved gives us some kind of fixes (probably just going to be points adjustments though).

Edit for added point: Actually another thing that might help Marines, including Tacticals, Assault, and others, would be to bring the cost of most of the special and heavy weapons down. Plasma is okay, but Grav should be 12, Flamers should be 5, and Meltas should be 13. Multimeltas should be like 20, Heavy Flamers should be 12, Gravcannons should be 20. The other heavies are probably fine.

10 points is where marines start to not suck. Start there. Or take a look at the gaggles of threads about how to fix marines. 2W 2A at 14 points fixes them. Making primaris like 3w 3A at 20. People are just afraid to make marines actually worth their points. It is a fascinating thing.

Bharring wrote:
Jaxler,
Moar serioser now, ASM and Scions do very different jobs. ASM are bullies. Scions are podded threats. ASM typically can't make their charge on the turn the deepstrike, and so usually need to maneuver into position. But with 12" movement, can. Unfortunately, their current ppm makes them far to expensive for what they do. And so many other things do it better.

To better see the difference, consider what happens when Scions get to do their thing, but to a unit it can't kill, vs what happens with ASM. If you're shooting at a Rhino or a Tac Squad or a Reaper squad, Scions do their damage, then the target does it's thing. With ASM, once they get in, they might not do much damage. But the target needs to fall back. Which means no shooting (unless Fly or a stratagem or whatever).

They suck at their job. It’s a job that takes until turn three to achieve. Also explain why scions don’t tie down just as well? For 100 points for 10 scions vs 80 for assault marines you can attempt to charge from deep strike, obstruct movement and get the same number of attacks at 1 less str. You’ve 10 wounds though, vs 5.

Turn 2, no packs, get em in a Rhino and Advance it forward. Turn 1 if your using them to run interference or intercepting infiltrators. Turn 2 for threatening backfield via Deep Strike, "deal with me or I'll charge your artillery" stuff.

Do people realise they're arguing for Ork Boyz to be able to:
- deepstrike
- benefit from chapter tactics
- move 12"
- have a 3+ save
- shoot on a 3+
That's ridiculous and everyone even thinking to agree with the statement should be barred from any game design discussions, ever.

Fix assault so it isn't so reliant on hordes of bodies prevent units from falling back,
Fix assault so that the majority of wargear isnt useless,
Fix assault so that the only viable method is deepstrike delivery.

Raise point costs on all units so that a single point doesn't represent a TOTAL change in stat block, 1 point for a 3+ save? Getouttahere.

Make it apparent that certain armies have cheaper and easier access to more things, marines get armor and wargear, orks get bodies and assault, eldar get invulnerable saves and movement etc etc.

Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Advance and charge with warboss. And assault marines have beefier shooty weapons than bolt pistol.

But you missed 3+ save, 12" move and deep strike none that boyz have. Those are worth way more than +1A so having assault marines same cost as boyz or even cheaper would be ridiculous.

Assault marines are overpriced yes but not THAT much overpriced. If assault marines would go to 5-6 pts where would ork boyz go? 2 pts? Grots would then need X for Y or like 0.5 pts as there's no full point that would be reasonable price! And overall game would go to wrong direction with everything going cheaper making things harder to balance as there's no depth in bottom scales. Difference between 3 pts and 4 pts model is lot bigger than 15 pts or 16 pts.

I'd argue a normal Space Marine could be around 10 points as they are now. So Assault Marines could similarly drop at least 3 points per model. Wouldn't make them amazing, but they'd be a little less gak.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

I'd gladly change 1 attack for all of the above. I think you're missing just how good a 6pt assault marine would be; not to mention their 'Gak gun' would now be a 30+ S4 shots hitting on 3's.

There are certain people who posted "yes pls" earlier in this thread that were complaining Ork Boyz were busted a few months back, and yet they are fine with this? Utter madness.

This edition puts Space Marine players in a state of transition, what with regular marines and Primaris side by side. I expect stat lines will develop to be more Primaris orientated, if their little brothers don't get phased out all together. Then we'll finally have all tactical and assault marines etc being as tough and as capable as they're portrayed in the canon.

Sounds fair, since it would mean my beloved storm guardians become -5 points per model (yes, negative 5, not 7-5). Infinite eldar horde of doom, you asked for it!

This post is clearly troll material, but there is some merit in this discussion (relatively, we are on dakka after all...)

I agree with Xeno here, the real cost of a tac marine should be 10 points, same for assault marines without packs. They should then have cheaper access to melee weapons, they have only 1 attack base, they cannot pay 22 points for a power fist with a bit better AP!

If they could take eviscerators for 8 points and flamers and plasma pistols for 5, they would be decent (not strong, decent) and help to fill that glaring hole which is the marine's assault phase.

I feel like a lot of MEQ (not only the rines ones) should go down in price or need adjustments.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Advance and charge with warboss. And assault marines have beefier shooty weapons than bolt pistol.

But you missed 3+ save, 12" move and deep strike none that boyz have. Those are worth way more than +1A so having assault marines same cost as boyz or even cheaper would be ridiculous.

Assault marines are overpriced yes but not THAT much overpriced. If assault marines would go to 5-6 pts where would ork boyz go? 2 pts? Grots would then need X for Y or like 0.5 pts as there's no full point that would be reasonable price! And overall game would go to wrong direction with everything going cheaper making things harder to balance as there's no depth in bottom scales. Difference between 3 pts and 4 pts model is lot bigger than 15 pts or 16 pts.

Beefier shooting weapons? You mean FLAMERS? I had to laugh.

Also Deep Strike is a bad idea when you can't shoot with those super beefy Flamers and have a 28% chance to make a charge without being Black Templars.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Advance and charge with warboss. And assault marines have beefier shooty weapons than bolt pistol.

But you missed 3+ save, 12" move and deep strike none that boyz have. Those are worth way more than +1A so having assault marines same cost as boyz or even cheaper would be ridiculous.

Assault marines are overpriced yes but not THAT much overpriced. If assault marines would go to 5-6 pts where would ork boyz go? 2 pts? Grots would then need X for Y or like 0.5 pts as there's no full point that would be reasonable price! And overall game would go to wrong direction with everything going cheaper making things harder to balance as there's no depth in bottom scales. Difference between 3 pts and 4 pts model is lot bigger than 15 pts or 16 pts.

Beefier shooting weapons? You mean FLAMERS? I had to laugh.

Also Deep Strike is a bad idea when you can't shoot with those super beefy Flamers and have a 28% chance to make a charge without being Black Templars.

Plasma pistol , plasma gun, melta gun(or indeed melta pistol) beefy enough for you?

But you REALLY think that +1 A orks have is worth 3+ save, 12" move, BS3+ in a model that would cost less than said ork boy?

Martel732 wrote:
That's what they're REALLY worth, but no one will admit it.

That might be because people were winning tournaments spamming Stormboyz earlier in the edition, and they cost more than that with a 6+ save and 5+BS...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Orks are getting Chapter Tactic equivalents in their codex and they have an extra attack on top of that. Plus they can advance and charge I'm pretty sure. Definitely more a bargain than BS3+ on a gak pistol.

Orks can advance and charge due to the Warboss aura buff.

Say, Cult of Marines Suck, how do you feel about marine units being costed based on being in various character buffing auras?

Don't you guys hate that?

Reducing the points just seems like the way to perpetuate a race to the bottom. I’d much rather see Classic Marines base statline get a boost – 2 attacks base seems reasonable, and something allowing additional shots with Bolt weapons. The former in particular helps out Assault Marines – 50% improvement in effectiveness if you have a chainsword, and you’re not mugging yourself off so badly if you take a flamer or eviscerator either. No doubt some people will claim “there’s no point to S4 attacks at all” or some such, but these tweaks would put Assault Squads somewhere around where they should be positioned, I reckon,

I'd be so excited if this change goes through. 4PPM SERAPHIM here we come!

Sororitas stronk, being cheaper marines.

I know this is a satire post BUT. At least present it correctly - OP is suggesting 8-9 point assault marines with a base cost of 6.

Let me ask you. Have you seen a (tazngor)? TS goatmen?

They have the same relevant stats except for armor save (which is instead a 5++ save)
ws3+ T4 Str4 A1

And they have a +1 attack ap-1 blade. They cost 7 points.

Everyone here seems to think this 3+ is worth 6 points ON TOP OF a 5++ (which is most cases is as good as a 3+ save through the game) ESP when you can make it a 4++ with a psychic power.

This post really is funny because many of you think it's like suggesting 1 point gaurdsmen. No - it's actually in the same realm as IG infantry staying 4ppm.

Bharring wrote:
You don't take ASM to krump sum'un. You take ASM to blindside someone. Charge that tank. Surround and charge from behind while your tacs charge from the front (good luck falling back from that). Pressure them to support their flanks or backfield.

ASM don't need to kill anything. They need to charge into CC against non-CC units, and not die too easily. They just cost too much right now to do that.

Points aside - this guy gets it.

For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Martel732 wrote:
For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Hey, good thing they have Fly with Jump Packs, so you'd have to literally surround everything important in base-to-base to stop that, yeah?

Just end this thread, 6 point assault marines is ridiculous.

They would just walk their marines across the table and win every game against me. They could literally take only assault marines, jump pack captains, and librarians on bikes, and win every game against me.

I mean seriously, 3 maxed out spearheads gets you 180 assault marines, 3 captains with jump packs, for under 1500 points. You could take Azrael with them and they'd all have 4++.

The only reason Orks aren't crushing literally everyone is because their dudes have a 6+ save. And even then, a proper Green Tide is hard to deal with, it's just a matter of time constraints, and the fact that volume shooting exists (hello, baneblade variants, for ex).

They are far superior to a 6 point unit.

Match up an assault marine versus a Gargoyle. (6 points). You win every time.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Hey, good thing they have Fly with Jump Packs, so you'd have to literally surround everything important in base-to-base to stop that, yeah?

No, just create spaces where the unit can't legally fit. My opponents did it all the time until I quit using BA jump units.

No, they shouldn't be 6 ppm base. But they play real close to that in practice.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Hey, good thing they have Fly with Jump Packs, so you'd have to literally surround everything important in base-to-base to stop that, yeah?

No, just create spaces where the unit can't legally fit. My opponents did it all the time until I quit using BA jump units.

Multicharge? I mean, it'd be pretty damn hard to make it so you cannot legally fit next to, say, a Leman Russ without having two or three squads of Guardsmen in B2B.

Edit: Got any pics of what it's like? That might help us understand.

No, but it's mostly just spacing tricks. They position squads to keep the ASM in front of them, so a full move of 12" would render some of the ASM standing on top of guardsmen. The tank can be further back. It's stuipd simple to create a DS-proof IG DZ.

Because movement is before shooting, they hose up my move with their previous turn's movement. I do this all the time now with my own guardsmen.

Remember, assaulting the guardsmen means the IG wins. So they just make sure that's the only choice.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For their cost, ASM need to be able to kill quite a bit.

Also, you can't blindside lists that have filled their entire DZ with cheap chaff.

Hey, good thing they have Fly with Jump Packs, so you'd have to literally surround everything important in base-to-base to stop that, yeah?

No, just create spaces where the unit can't legally fit. My opponents did it all the time until I quit using BA jump units.

Multicharge? I mean, it'd be pretty damn hard to make it so you cannot legally fit next to, say, a Leman Russ without having two or three squads of Guardsmen in B2B.

Edit: Got any pics of what it's like? That might help us understand.

You can only legally charge things within 12", pile in must be closer to the nearest model, and you must maintain coherency after a charge.

I'd still like to see how this is happening. I understand it could be a tough charge, but without literal buckets of Guardsmen or other screens, I'm failing to see how it'd be IMPOSSIBLE.

I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

It's functionally impossible, because if I choose to move less distance to set up a jump OVER them on the next turn, I get FRFSFed, and then they charge ME, preventing a charge the next turn.

Just think about moving your guardsmen up to about 11-13" away from the ASM and stopping there. That's all it takes to ruin any jump unit.

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

And 120 Guardsmen cover, at near max coherency...

About 30 2" squares, or around 120 square inches. Considering most DZs are either 4'x2' or 6'x1', that's 1,152 square inches or 864 square inches. They are not blanketing the entire DZ. If they choose to castle and body-block everything, use LoS blocking terrain and whatnot to help win on objectives.

They don't need to blanket it. They only need to make DS impossible and occupy the narrow strip of possible movement choices for ASM moving forward.

Can't win on objectives when I'm tabled by cheap IG artillery.

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, any of my characters, or anything, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Marines can't really do that in a TAC list. I don't dare bring aggressors for example, because dissy cannons exist. Sisters are much better against infantry than marines are atm.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, any of my characters, or anything, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Marines can't really do that in a TAC list. I don't dare bring aggressors for example, because dissy cannons exist.

Surely you can kill 30 guardsmen, though? Your firepower is roughly the same as sisters minus about 33% (since that's the relative points cost roughly), so the 40-50 I kill can be 25-35.

Okay. So let's say you have 100 Tactical Marines, and 50 survive to reach Rapid Fire range (and you inflicted no casualties on the way in).

That's 100 shots.
200/3 hits.
400/9 wounds.
800/27 dead.

So yeah, using what's generally considered a pretty poor unit, and one that gets half-wiped out, you can still punch a 30-man hole in the Infantry.

What do your lists consist of, Martel?

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

It's functionally impossible, because if I choose to move less distance to set up a jump OVER them on the next turn, I get FRFSFed, and then they charge ME, preventing a charge the next turn.

Just think about moving your guardsmen up to about 11-13" away from the ASM and stopping there. That's all it takes to ruin any jump unit.

You can in melee, if you get units like DC into melee with double attacks stratagem its not to hard, some with Genestealers, even Harlequins, Wyches, etc.... Out shooting 120 models is harder, you can get more melee than shooting if you do it well, units some units have 5 attack per model, and if you can double attack like most codex's are able too, then you can easily wipe out 2 squads without even trying on 1 charge. Most armies also have sometype of relic or way to stop over watch as well.

It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

It's functionally impossible, because if I choose to move less distance to set up a jump OVER them on the next turn, I get FRFSFed, and then they charge ME, preventing a charge the next turn.

Just think about moving your guardsmen up to about 11-13" away from the ASM and stopping there. That's all it takes to ruin any jump unit.

You can in melee, if you get units like DC into melee with double attacks stratagem its not to hard, some with Genestealers, even Harlequins, Wyches, etc.... Out shooting 120 models is harder, you can get more melee than shooting if you do it well, units some units have 5 attack per model, and if you can double attack like most codex's are able too, then you can easily wipe out 2 squads without even trying on 1 charge. Most armies also have sometype of relic or way to stop over watch as well.

The FAQ killed DC dead. I can't wait till turn 2; I'm being tabled quickly.

Martel732 wrote:
It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.

If they've got cover across the entire width of the deployment zone, you've terrain problem. If you're attacking a spot with cover, then that's bad play on your part.

Pick a spot of their entire deployment zone without cover, wipe out 30-ish of the guardsmen near it, and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps.

Also 585 points of marines to remove 40 should be trivial, then, to blow open a hole in the enemy army. Heck, you spend 1170 points on just barebones marines and can wipe out eighty guardsmen a turn before morale. If that doesn't punch a hole in the enemy lines for your other 1k points to go steaming through, IDK What will.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. So let's say you have 100 Tactical Marines, and 50 survive to reach Rapid Fire range (and you inflicted no casualties on the way in).

That's 100 shots.
200/3 hits.
400/9 wounds.
800/27 dead.

So yeah, using what's generally considered a pretty poor unit, and one that gets half-wiped out, you can still punch a 30-man hole in the Infantry.

What do your lists consist of, Martel?

Back when I was still trying to use jumpers? It seemed to change every game. Never seemed to matter. Hard to remember now. I gave up on all jump units after the FAQ for the most part.

Sisters are a horrible example, because they have scout moves fire points and acts of faith.

You can in essence waddle into range on turn 0, soulburst 2 units, and fire 4x with those 2, which are much cheaper than marines.

And your soulbursting happens before the movement phase, meaning you can more effectively deep strike, should you chose to.

If marine rhinos had fire points and could scout move, coupled with the ability to soulburst at least 2 squads to shoot before turn 1, they would be competitive versus IG.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.

If they've got cover across the entire width of the deployment zone, you've terrain problem. If you're attacking a spot with cover, then that's bad play on your part.

Pick a spot of their entire deployment zone without cover, wipe out 30-ish of the guardsmen near it, and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps.

Also 585 points of marines to remove 40 should be trivial, then, to blow open a hole in the enemy army. Heck, you spend 1170 points on just barebones marines and can wipe out eighty guardsmen a turn before morale. If that doesn't punch a hole in the enemy lines for your other 1k points to go steaming through, IDK What will.

40 pts. Not 40 guardsmen. 585 pts of marines kills 10 guardsmen in cover outside rapid fire. That's less than a 10% return.

What are you running,Martel? No jump pack units as a BA player, and you say you don’t have any dakka to remove some Guardsmen either? And your whole army gets tabled so quickly you can’t wait for turn 2 to charge anything?

meleti wrote:
What are you running,Martel? No jump pack units as a BA player, and you say you don’t have any dakka to remove some Guardsmen either? And your whole army gets tabled so quickly you can’t wait for turn 2 to charge anything?

I have dakka, but guardsmen are largely immune to marine dakka. Because there's not enough of it.

My CURRENT lists are soup and have no jump units save a single captain. So they are useless as a discussion point. I'm using guardsmen and Russes now, because I have no choice.

Previously, my jump lists used turn 1 DC to do the job. That's gone now, thanks to fething Tyranid players, leaving BA with basically no choices vs screens.

It's been discussed to death in the marine thread. There is no real efficient marine weapon vs guardsmen because of the cost of marines. DC were close, but FAQ killed them.

"and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps."

Is that before or after they die in transit?

Marmatag wrote:Sisters are a horrible example, because they have scout moves fire points and acts of faith.

You can in essence waddle into range on turn 0, soulburst 2 units, and fire 4x with those 2, which are much cheaper than marines.

And your soulbursting happens before the movement phase, meaning you can more effectively deep strike, should you chose to.

If marine rhinos had fire points and could scout move, coupled with the ability to soulburst at least 2 squads to shoot before turn 1, they would be competitive versus IG.

I explicitly only used acts of faith on the Seraphim and Celestine to move, and didn't even count Celestine's shooting.
Furthermore, I never once mentioned Repressors, as I do not in fact use any (nor do I own any). I run a foot horde, but include two Immolators for my melta Dominions (whose shooting was also omitted because they typically fire at the enemy tanks). I also included only the 14 bolt pistol shots from the Seraphim, as the melta pistols are usually firing at tanks, and the sergeant's plasma pistol is flexible so I just assumed it would fire at a tank is well. I made 0 use, in that math, of the Sororitas's differences from Space Marines, save to get the Seraphim Squad in range (which is possible even in Codex: Space Marines, depending on how precisely far apart the deployment zones are).

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.

If they've got cover across the entire width of the deployment zone, you've terrain problem. If you're attacking a spot with cover, then that's bad play on your part.

Pick a spot of their entire deployment zone without cover, wipe out 30-ish of the guardsmen near it, and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps.

Also 585 points of marines to remove 40 should be trivial, then, to blow open a hole in the enemy army. Heck, you spend 1170 points on just barebones marines and can wipe out eighty guardsmen a turn before morale. If that doesn't punch a hole in the enemy lines for your other 1k points to go steaming through, IDK What will.

40 pts. Not 40 guardsmen. 585 pts of marines kills 10 guardsmen in cover outside rapid fire. That's less than a 10% return.

I don't know if you saw the math I did, but I used almost my entire army to punch a hole in that screen, because I know that if my Seraphim and Celestine can get amongst the big guns behind the line, then I've caused enough havoc to win the game and spared myself the pain of those guns firing. Stop thinking in terms of points returns and start thinking of winning games. Your advantages over guard are not in exchanges of long-range gunnery volleys like napoleonic troops, but rather in force concentration. Focus your entire 2k into wiping out 40 guardsmen in the shooting phase, if necessary, then charge through the gap in the charge phase to touch the big guns. Game over, because his only real offensive output are his big guns, and either they're firing at your ultra-durable assault unit (e.g. Celestine's 11 wounds +respawns) or they're going to get wrecked. Easy.

I have little sympathy for people complaining about Tyranids though honestly. We have a decent codex but it's not even close to top tier.

Yeah, they know that too. They've got multiple layers guarding those tanks, and even if I touch a couple in CC, they fall back and they've got 12 more tanks. It's a simple numbers game they win every time.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Well Sisters get more Storm Bolters for the price, so it isn't a wonder you can clear them slightly better. The only real source of THAT many Storm Bolters for Marines is either Sternguard or Command Squads.

 Marmatag wrote:
I have little sympathy for people complaining about Tyranids though honestly. We have a decent codex but it's not even close to top tier.

Abuse of it got my army nerfed into oblivion. That's all, not the actual codex.

You absolutely need to soup in a Castellan, you will have a much easier time with those IG players.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Well Sisters get more Storm Bolters for the price, so it isn't a wonder you can clear them slightly better. The only real source of THAT many Storm Bolters for Marines is either Sternguard or Command Squads.

I'm using a vet squad with stormbolters now, but they still suck ass compared to sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
You absolutely need to soup in a Castellan, you will have a much easier time with those IG players.

I don't think the Castellan can kill IG quickly enough, honestly. They can just ignore it and accept a loss of a 90-110 pt tank every turn. They still win the race. Being undercosted is the ultimate equalizer against units like that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Well Sisters get more Storm Bolters for the price, so it isn't a wonder you can clear them slightly better. The only real source of THAT many Storm Bolters for Marines is either Sternguard or Command Squads.

This is why I took about 33% off of the Sister's numbers: to account for the fact that not only are Tactical Marines worse than Sororitas by about 33%, but even if you focus exclusively on better-than-tactical-marines shooting, you still won't be as good.

Martel732 wrote:Yeah, they know that too. They've got multiple layers guarding those tanks, and even if I touch a couple in CC, they fall back and they've got 12 more tanks. It's a simple numbers game they win every time.

40 guardsmen is 1/3rd of their entire complement, so if you focused your fire right, you should be able to clear a lane. Stop smattering your firepower all across his line and FOCUS! Plus, if they have more than 2 squads in front of a tank, then they can't physically stop you from touching the tank in the assault phase assuming a 12" regular Dawn of War deployment zone, since the base with of a guardsmen is less than 1", so either the second rank of guardsmen are touching the 6" long tank, in which case being in base with them is the same as being within base of the tank, or they're not, and have left you space to fly in between. Remember, even if you just wipe out the front line of guardsmen, your charge with Celestine and Seraphim (or ASM & Captain) will wipe out a few of the second-line guardsmen, and if they're as tightly packed as they have to be to put multiple layers of more than 4 squads in front of their tanks, then you'll be able to consolidate into the gaps and tie up the tanks anyways.

Really, it isn't hard, at all. I do it all the time. I feel like I have to draw you a picture, lol.

It's easy to stop, too. I do it all the time, and it's done to me all the time. The gunline dictates all engagements, because I'm the one desperately trying to base them.

Again, you need only occupy the narrow strip in the area that gets the ASM closer to the tanks on a max move.

And if the IG gets first turn, it becomes even worse because they can spread out outside the DZ.

Punching holes takes place AFTER you have to move. It's too late by then.

Martel732 wrote:
It's easy to stop, too. I do it all the time, and it's done to me all the time. The gunline dictates all engagements, because I'm the one desperately trying to base them.

You have 6" of extra movement in the fight phase as a Fly model, with a few easily circumvented restrictions, plus a 2d6" charge, plus a 12" move. And you even have 1" of leeway after all that, because you don't have to base them, merely get within 1". They can dictate the starting conditions of the engagement, but you control what 10 man guard squads are wiped out in your shooting phase. Concentrate your force, focus on the path you need to take to get the enemy tanks, wipe out the 40 guardsmen in the way (seriously, I doubt he's fitting more than 4 squads in front of his tanks unless you're playing Vanguard Strike and he castled in the far corner or something) and then go boop the tanks. You can even deal with a 5th and 6th squad in the way with clever charges and positioning, since your models have fly.

Martel732 wrote:
Again, you need only occupy the narrow strip in the area that gets the ASM closer to the tanks on a max move.

Yes, but that's also a fairly obvious place for ALL YOUR BULLETS to go, so you wipe out the guardsmen, then charge 2d6" over/through the gap, spending a CP roll if necessary.

Martel732 wrote:
And if the IG gets first turn, it becomes even worse because they can spread out outside the DZ.

Yes. A lot is running on 1st turn in 40k in general, Guard or no.

Martel732 wrote:
Punching holes takes place AFTER you have to move. It's too late by then.

No it isn't. Move up to 1" away from the guardsmen, use shooting to blenderize the guardsmen behind that line between you and the tanks, and then charge over that line. It's not rocket science.

The units with jump packs have very little shooting to speak of. Those that might have any, die before they can do as you describe.

The front line of infantry need only stop my movement 12.5" away from the tanks, which is trivial. The second line will not be within consolidation distance of the tank line.

The guard players know this is a jump unit's only hope. They are going to make sure it can never happen during their movement phase. They will get at least one movement phase, because I have no access to turn 1 charge anymore.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's easy to stop, too. I do it all the time, and it's done to me all the time. The gunline dictates all engagements, because I'm the one desperately trying to base them.

You have 6" of extra movement in the fight phase as a Fly model, with a few easily circumvented restrictions, plus a 2d6" charge, plus a 12" move. And you even have 1" of leeway after all that, because you don't have to base them, merely get within 1". They can dictate the starting conditions of the engagement, but you control what 10 man guard squads are wiped out in your shooting phase. Concentrate your force, focus on the path you need to take to get the enemy tanks, wipe out the 40 guardsmen in the way (seriously, I doubt he's fitting more than 4 squads in front of his tanks unless you're playing Vanguard Strike and he castled in the far corner or something) and then go boop the tanks. You can even deal with a 5th and 6th squad in the way with clever charges and positioning, since your models have fly.

Martel732 wrote:
Again, you need only occupy the narrow strip in the area that gets the ASM closer to the tanks on a max move.

Yes, but that's also a fairly obvious place for ALL YOUR BULLETS to go, so you wipe out the guardsmen, then charge 2d6" over/through the gap, spending a CP roll if necessary.

Martel732 wrote:
And if the IG gets first turn, it becomes even worse because they can spread out outside the DZ.

Yes. A lot is running on 1st turn in 40k in general, Guard or no.

Martel732 wrote:
Punching holes takes place AFTER you have to move. It's too late by then.

No it isn't. Move up to 1" away from the guardsmen, use shooting to blenderize the guardsmen behind that line between you and the tanks, and then charge over that line. It's not rocket science.

You act like you've never killed Assault Marines before.

Seriously we've had this thread. It's a pointless unit entry and you're better off with spending +2 points a model for Vanguard.

All of this holds true for vv, too. Except they give up points even faster.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.

If they've got cover across the entire width of the deployment zone, you've terrain problem. If you're attacking a spot with cover, then that's bad play on your part.

Pick a spot of their entire deployment zone without cover, wipe out 30-ish of the guardsmen near it, and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps.

Also 585 points of marines to remove 40 should be trivial, then, to blow open a hole in the enemy army. Heck, you spend 1170 points on just barebones marines and can wipe out eighty guardsmen a turn before morale. If that doesn't punch a hole in the enemy lines for your other 1k points to go steaming through, IDK What will.

Lol they can actually get that with a aegis defense line. It's actually pretty OP - a guy at my store does it. He's a genius.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
You absolutely need to soup in a Castellan, you will have a much easier time with those IG players.

Castellan is the answer to all problems currently.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just end this thread, 6 point assault marines is ridiculous.

They would just walk their marines across the table and win every game against me. They could literally take only assault marines, jump pack captains, and librarians on bikes, and win every game against me.

I mean seriously, 3 maxed out spearheads gets you 180 assault marines, 3 captains with jump packs, for under 1500 points. You could take Azrael with them and they'd all have 4++.

The only reason Orks aren't crushing literally everyone is because their dudes have a 6+ save. And even then, a proper Green Tide is hard to deal with, it's just a matter of time constraints, and the fact that volume shooting exists (hello, baneblade variants, for ex).

They are far superior to a 6 point unit.

Match up an assault marine versus a Gargoyle. (6 points). You win every time.

Oh my god, a Marines Suck thread that's so absurd it has caused a schism in the faith!

Soon we will have the Reformed Church of Marines Suck and the Orthodox Marine Suckists running about having holy wars with each other.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Well Sisters get more Storm Bolters for the price, so it isn't a wonder you can clear them slightly better. The only real source of THAT many Storm Bolters for Marines is either Sternguard or Command Squads.

I'm using a vet squad with stormbolters now, but they still suck ass compared to sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
You absolutely need to soup in a Castellan, you will have a much easier time with those IG players.

I don't think the Castellan can kill IG quickly enough, honestly. They can just ignore it and accept a loss of a 90-110 pt tank every turn. They still win the race. Being undercosted is the ultimate equalizer against units like that.

More realistically its its 2 tanks a turn on average. They have some tanks that cost 200+ (like command russes). After turn 3 there are no tanks left. Trust me - get the castellan.Throw it in with your BA and you will start to win games.

I don't see the hoopla around the castellan myself. Seems like marginal shooting for the incredible price tag.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lol they can actually get that with a aegis defense line. It's actually pretty OP - a guy at my store does it. He's a genius.

I'd love it if the guard players around here reduced their CPs and firepower by a whole detachment just to get an Aegis Line. Though you still have to be within 1" of it to get cover, so units with Fly can safely fly over them (after your shooting wipes out the units not in cover of course).

Dafuq? AMs should start at 15 pts +15 for the VS!

the_scotsman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Just end this thread, 6 point assault marines is ridiculous.

They would just walk their marines across the table and win every game against me. They could literally take only assault marines, jump pack captains, and librarians on bikes, and win every game against me.

I mean seriously, 3 maxed out spearheads gets you 180 assault marines, 3 captains with jump packs, for under 1500 points. You could take Azrael with them and they'd all have 4++.

The only reason Orks aren't crushing literally everyone is because their dudes have a 6+ save. And even then, a proper Green Tide is hard to deal with, it's just a matter of time constraints, and the fact that volume shooting exists (hello, baneblade variants, for ex).

They are far superior to a 6 point unit.

Match up an assault marine versus a Gargoyle. (6 points). You win every time.

Oh my god, a Marines Suck thread that's so absurd it has caused a schism in the faith!

Soon we will have the Reformed Church of Marines Suck and the Orthodox Marine Suckists running about having holy wars with each other.

LOL max 30 assault marines. Rule of 3 bro.

Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lol they can actually get that with a aegis defense line. It's actually pretty OP - a guy at my store does it. He's a genius.

I'd love it if the guard players around here reduced their CPs and firepower by a whole detachment just to get an Aegis Line. Though you still have to be within 2" of it to get cover, so units with Fly can safely fly over them (after your shooting wipes out the units not in cover of course).

I really feel like L2p is in order here. How do you fly over if there is no room to place your unit? You can't! LOL.

Martel732 wrote:
All of this holds true for vv, too. Except they give up points even faster.

Vanguard will at least put a dent in a unit for 10 points more.

Please don't defend the Assault Marine entry. YOU of all people should know better than that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lol they can actually get that with a aegis defense line. It's actually pretty OP - a guy at my store does it. He's a genius.

I'd love it if the guard players around here reduced their CPs and firepower by a whole detachment just to get an Aegis Line. Though you still have to be within 2" of it to get cover, so units with Fly can safely fly over them (after your shooting wipes out the units not in cover of course).

I really feel like L2p is in order here. How do you fly over if there is no room to place your unit? You can't! LOL.

You shoot the units behind the one that is using the aegis line as cover, then charge over the unit in front...

...Y'know, like I've been trying to illustrate this entire thread, with statments like "stop 1" in front of the line of guardsmen, shoot a hole, then charge through."

The only thing the Aegis line changes is that you can leave the front squad alone that's tucked behind the Aegis line, since you can just charge over them...

Martel732 wrote:
I don't see the hoopla around the castellan myself. Seems like marginal shooting for the incredible price tag.

It’s got more than marginal shooting and if has a 3++. It’s a very straightforward model that if anything is undercosted.

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. If it does though - I think it's safe to say rule of 3 should just be disregarded in all forms or completely rewritten to not allow it.

Well they are different units, they have different rules, They even have different names, why wouldn't they be separate options?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
All of this holds true for vv, too. Except they give up points even faster.

Vanguard will at least put a dent in a unit for 10 points more.

Please don't defend the Assault Marine entry. YOU of all people should know better than that.

No, it's that all jump marine entries are useless. ASM just give away points the slowest.

Karol wrote:
Well they are different units, they have different rules, They even have different names, why wouldn't they be separate options?

Because they are the same units. They have the same rules - they basically have a different chapter tactic is all.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. If it does though - I think it's safe to say rule of 3 should just be disregarded in all forms or completely rewritten to not allow it.

I mean, riddle me this: Daemon Prince, Daemon Prince from the CSM codex, Daemon Prince from the Tsons codex?

*is ignored*

Ok, well, glad that that Aegis Line guy will feel like less of a genius when you use real tactics against him next time.

I'm not sure how great the aegis line thing is, but post-faq, running out of marines about the time you reach the tanks is a thing for sure.

The jumping over guard screens still seems like a noob stomper tactic to me.

Why am I not surprised this turned into a marines vs guardsmen thread despite IG not having jumppack options?

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Maybe the problem isnt points tho.... everything is good if points are low enough to make up for poor rules.

Look at the start of 8th, DE Razorflock spam won tournaments with T3, S3 melee units with 0 saves.

Making them a few points cheaper is a good start, but i'd rather them have a couple core rules changes.

I'd agree with this. Their primary problem is simply.... why? Regardless of cost, why do I want to drop this unit in? Their output is incredibly mediocre, not even just for their cost, but just in general. The likelihood of them doing nothing is pretty staggering, which makes them a pretty unimpressive pick regardless of cost.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. If it does though - I think it's safe to say rule of 3 should just be disregarded in all forms or completely rewritten to not allow it.

I mean, riddle me this: Daemon Prince, Daemon Prince from the CSM codex, Daemon Prince from the Tsons codex?

If they have different unit names you can do it. Otherwise you can't - that's what I understood.

 Billagio wrote:
Why am I not surprised this turned into a marines vs guardsmen thread despite IG not having jumppack options?

It's all part of the standard service call/response after the reading from the gospel.

"let us proclaim the weakness of marines"

"it is right to give them points and buffs"

"unwinnable games be with you"

"and also with you"

"Protect us oh GW, from all disintegrators, and from all guardsmen screens and CP batteries. Lead us not into nerfs, but deliver us from eldar, so that we may reach everlasting competitiveness."

"plastic army men"

 Billagio wrote:
Why am I not surprised this turned into a marines vs guardsmen thread despite IG not having jumppack options?

Orks stomp asm, too. Feel better?

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not sure how great the aegis line thing is, but post-faq, running out of marines about the time you reach the tanks is a thing for sure.

The jumping over guard screens still seems like a noob stomper tactic to me.

Just remember that you have as much control over where their screens are when you charge as they do, since you can shoot the screens before you make your charge moves.
And it's not a flawless tactic (none are, because of dice and differing table situations / deployment zones), but it's an example of the utility of having Jump Pack troops.

Running out of marines before you reach the tanks is a different problem entirely, and not one I've yet encountered (my Sororitas are never in danger of this, bringing something like 100 power-armored-or-better models), so I can't speak on how to beat it. That depends on things like Line of Sight, force concentration, the style of the Guard army (whether or not the tanks are artillery or direct-fire, etc), even who gets to pick the deployment zone and where the objectives are placed. I even have rules-of-thumb governing what style of deployment zone I pick based on what my opponent's army is - for example, if they're running artillery screened by Guardsmen, make them have the zone with LOS Blocking Terrain that is as far apart as possible, so they either have to deploy an artillery tank in LOS or stretch their screens quite wide to cover both LOS blocking terrain pieces. Alternatively, if they bring tanks, then I will pick the zone with the most LOS blocking terrain in the center, forcing my opponent to commit his tanks to one flank or another and I can load the other flank, using the very terrain itself as LOS blocking, or he can split his tanks, in which case I only endure half the firepower on any given flank.

I try to make utmost use of the fact that my 100-ish power-armor models (including 2 tanks) take up far less space than his 120 bodies and 8 tanks, giving me the ability to concentrate a hammerblow that can silence enough of his models that I can deal with his army piecemeal.

Marmatag has always run the risk of being an apostate of the Church of Marines Suck. He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.

The Xeno branch and the Slayer branch are End-Timers and the Inquisitorial subfaction. They don't disagree often, but they have slightly different takes on the faith.

Martel is the Latin-Mass-fanatic of the bunch. He might not break the faith with the current mainstream Church, but doesn't fully ascribe to either subfaction.

The internal politics are entertaining, even though they don't directly interact so much.

It's a little nauseating how much better sisters are than marines. ScIons are better marines than marines, too. I should be getting used to it by now.

I can even jump guys with boltguns, but they are largely useless now because of the faq and point cost on them.

Martel732 wrote:
It's a little nauseating how much better sisters are than marines. ScIons are better marines than marines, too. I should be getting used to it by now.

I can even jump guys with boltguns, but they are largely useless now because of the faq and point cost on them.

Perhaps the problem, then, is that Marines are bad, rather than Guard being too good?

Bharring wrote:
Marmatag has always run the risk of being an apostate of the Church of Marines Suck. He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.

The Xeno branch and the Slayer branch are End-Timers and the Inquisitorial subfaction. They don't disagree often, but they have slightly different takes on the faith.

Martel is the Latin-Mass-fanatic of the bunch. He might not break the faith with the current mainstream Church, but doesn't fully ascribe to either subfaction.

The internal politics are entertaining, even though they don't directly interact so much.

That's because Xeno makes stupid ideas when it comes to fixing Marines and nerfing other units. I'll admit I'm pretty conservative with my fixes (for example I'm for Infantry squads going to 45 points, as you can't modify the squad size at all, which keeps a good neutral ground for people that want to keep them the same and people that want the unit entry obliterated). Sometimes being conservative is a good thing though.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a little nauseating how much better sisters are than marines. ScIons are better marines than marines, too. I should be getting used to it by now.

I can even jump guys with boltguns, but they are largely useless now because of the faq and point cost on them.

Perhaps the problem, then, is that Marines are bad, rather than Guard being too good?

As bharring has pointed out, there is a two-tier system for infantry. Guardsmen do seem too good even compared to kabalites, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Marmatag has always run the risk of being an apostate of the Church of Marines Suck. He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.

The Xeno branch and the Slayer branch are End-Timers and the Inquisitorial subfaction. They don't disagree often, but they have slightly different takes on the faith.

Martel is the Latin-Mass-fanatic of the bunch. He might not break the faith with the current mainstream Church, but doesn't fully ascribe to either subfaction.

The internal politics are entertaining, even though they don't directly interact so much.

That's because Xeno makes stupid ideas when it comes to fixing Marines and nerfing other units. I'll admit I'm pretty conservative with my fixes (for example I'm for Infantry squads going to 45 points, as you can't modify the squad size at all, which keeps a good neutral ground for people that want to keep them the same and people that want the unit entry obliterated). Sometimes being conservative is a good thing though.

When does the church obliterate space wolves? I'm all in on that one.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's a little nauseating how much better sisters are than marines. ScIons are better marines than marines, too. I should be getting used to it by now.

I can even jump guys with boltguns, but they are largely useless now because of the faq and point cost on them.

Perhaps the problem, then, is that Marines are bad, rather than Guard being too good?

As bharring has pointed out, there is a two-tier system for infantry. Guardsmen do seem too good even compared to kabalites, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Marmatag has always run the risk of being an apostate of the Church of Marines Suck. He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.

The Xeno branch and the Slayer branch are End-Timers and the Inquisitorial subfaction. They don't disagree often, but they have slightly different takes on the faith.

Martel is the Latin-Mass-fanatic of the bunch. He might not break the faith with the current mainstream Church, but doesn't fully ascribe to either subfaction.

The internal politics are entertaining, even though they don't directly interact so much.

That's because Xeno makes stupid ideas when it comes to fixing Marines and nerfing other units. I'll admit I'm pretty conservative with my fixes (for example I'm for Infantry squads going to 45 points, as you can't modify the squad size at all, which keeps a good neutral ground for people that want to keep them the same and people that want the unit entry obliterated). Sometimes being conservative is a good thing though.

When does the church obliterate space wolves? I'm all in on that one.

Yeah you dont see kabals in hordes on the table for good reasons, even at 6ppm they still dont have the damage like guardsman does, they dont get FRFSRF, their traits/army buffs are minor for them, 5+/6++ T3 24" wound on 4 and vehicles on 6.. with maybe a re-roll to hit of 1 or wound of 1, and thats it, they dont do enough damage on the table by themselves, and they dont have mortars or other useful weapons, a Splinter cannons and DL isnt good on infantry.

Martel732 wrote:
[As bharring has pointed out, there is a two-tier system for infantry. Guardsmen do seem too good even compared to kabalites, though.

Is Sororitas on the top tier with Kabalites and Guardsmen and Admech or the bottom tier with Marines?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Karol wrote:
Wouldn't you just run 30 Regular assault marines, 30 BA assault marines, 30 DA assault marines and 30 SW assault marines?

Pretty sure it doesn't work like that. If it does though - I think it's safe to say rule of 3 should just be disregarded in all forms or completely rewritten to not allow it.

It does work like this. They have different data sheets.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
[As bharring has pointed out, there is a two-tier system for infantry. Guardsmen do seem too good even compared to kabalites, though.

Is Sororitas on the top tier with Kabalites and Guardsmen and Admech or the bottom tier with Marines?

Forgot where he put them. I can only assume top.

In truth I don't have a vested interest in the outcome of balance discussions in regards to marines. I don't play them. I play Tyranids.

And I don't think marines are as far off from balance as people say. The problem, as I see it, is two overperforming factions: Imperial Guard & Eldar. Marines actually have quite a few solid tools at their disposal, and if you play Tyranids for a week you'd understand that a 3+ save is far more durable than a 6+ save. The fact that it's being tossed around lightly is getting silly.

The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Catalyst'd Genestealers have a 5++/5+++.

Assuming 1 damage weapons, that effectively promotes them to a little better than a 4+ save.

For reference, that is:

1. A psychic power. (doesn't scale)
2. Assumed synapse coverage. (extra cost!)
3. A unit with no guns. (guns are for filthy mammals with no claws)
4. A move speed of 8". (jump packs are for weak legs)
5. A unit with no real transport options (It's hard to fit into a seat when you have a billion arms)
6. A unit with the same toughness as marines.

Which costs 1 point less per model than marines.

So let's talk more about durability.

 Marmatag wrote:
In truth I don't have a vested interest in the outcome of balance discussions in regards to marines. I don't play them. I play Tyranids.

And I don't think marines are as far off from balance as people say. The problem, as I see it, is two overperforming factions: Imperial Guard & Eldar. Marines actually have quite a few solid tools at their disposal, and if you play Tyranids for a week you'd understand that a 3+ save is far more durable than a 6+ save. The fact that it's being tossed around lightly is getting silly.

Or just like, a single game. People aren’t shooting plasma guns at Termagants if they don’t have to.

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

I do now, and i like them much better. Too many ways 3+ can fail in 8th. The 5++ is very weak on da, but incredibly strong on a raider or venom.

But the 3+ infantry save is a pure liability in 8th because of how gw prices it. And how they price weapons that cut through through easily.

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Catalyst'd Genestealers have a 5++/5+++.

Assuming 1 damage weapons, that effectively promotes them to a little better than a 4+ save.

For reference, that is:

1. A psychic power. (doesn't scale)
2. Assumed synapse coverage. (extra cost!)
3. A unit with no guns. (guns are for filthy mammals with no claws)
4. A move speed of 8". (jump packs are for weak legs)

Which costs 1 point less per model than marines.

Tell me more about how your 3+ isn't durable.

It's not like they have 4 attacks in CC with amazing weapons, good morale even without Synapse, better protection against Mortal Wounds with Catalyst up, and the ability to advance and charge. Nope, none of that!

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

I run Skitarii almost pure. That's 4+/6++.

No there isn't a value to a 3+ if the unit isn't costed correctly. Value come from the point value + stats, not the stats themselves.

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Good job jinxing yourself. Next game, you won't make a single one.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Catalyst'd Genestealers have a 5++/5+++.

Assuming 1 damage weapons, that effectively promotes them to a little better than a 4+ save.

For reference, that is:

1. A psychic power. (doesn't scale)
2. Assumed synapse coverage. (extra cost!)
3. A unit with no guns. (guns are for filthy mammals with no claws)
4. A move speed of 8". (jump packs are for weak legs)

Which costs 1 point less per model than marines.

Tell me more about how your 3+ isn't durable.

It's not like they have 4 attacks in CC with amazing weapons, good morale even without Synapse, better protection against Mortal Wounds with Catalyst up, and the ability to advance and charge. Nope, none of that!

The expected value of an advance roll is 3.5, putting their movement lower than jump packs. I run them as Kraken so my move speed is slightly faster, but not by much. So, every turn jump pack buddies are moving 12 and then can charge. Objectively better than advance and charge without Kraken.

They have 3 base attacks, you must maintain a squad size of 10+ to get that extra attack. News flash, they die quickly. Rending claws are solid. Without them, Genestealers would be in the gutter. They cost twice as much as an Ork Boy.

If you leave Genestealers exposed to deep strike shooting they are vaporized in a turn, catalyst or not. If you leave them exposed to guard shooting they're also vaporized in a turn. If they are charged by Boyz, or any other dedicated melee unit, they die before they fight.

And leadership 10 doesn't mean a whole lot. It does if your models are durable, though.

Models are op, all models needs a points fix.

Lower by .5".
With Kraken, they're actually faster, on average.

And oh no, only THREE ATTACKS! Man, they must be absolute GARBAGE what with only having three attacks!

My 1 Attack Plaguebearers with no AP, a 5" move without advance and charge (unless you pay for the tree), Leadership 7 and incredibly unreliable morale mitigation, well... They're crying for you.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Lower by .5".
With Kraken, they're actually faster, on average.

And oh no, only THREE ATTACKS! Man, they must be absolute GARBAGE what with only having three attacks!

My 1 Attack Plaguebearers with no AP, a 5" move without advance and charge (unless you pay for the tree), Leadership 7 and incredibly unreliable morale mitigation, well... They're crying for you.

Death Guard are top tier. World's smallest violin plays for you.

Waddle your plagueburst crawlers to the front line. I'll be eating ridiculous overwatch, and wounding on 6s, which you will still have a feel no pain for. Yeah, you are so hard up. Then mortarian eliminates a whole squad per turn. Yawnfest.

Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

If you're bringing chaos and elect to bring weaker units i can't help you, soup exists, brothy, delicious soup. Use your soup. The second the GSC codex drops i'm going to exploit my only soup option with no shame.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

Yep, and the moment you include them in your army you lose Inexorable Advance on everyone else!

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

If you're bringing chaos and elect to bring weaker units i can't help you, soup exists, brothy, delicious soup. Use your soup. The second the GSC codex drops i'm going to exploit my only soup option with no shame.

Well, then just bring Guardsmen already. You can do that easily-bring a Supreme Command of GSC (say, two Maguses and a Patriarch or something) and then bring Guard to shore up your weaknesses.

But, as a Nurgle Daemons player and NOT a Death Guard player... Yeah. Genestealers freaking rock. They're not especially durable, but they hit like a truck.

And, as a note... You're basically saying "Don't bring what you like, bring what's good." Which is fine advice for winning. Why are you playing Nids, then, and not Imperium, Chaos, or Eldar Soup? That's stronger than Nids, and clearly, from this post, you only care about winning. Or do you like your Nids, just like I like Daemons, and therefore want them to be better, instead of just ditching what you like for what's good?

Marmatag,
Your parentheticals on the first post of this page mean you win this page.

Martel,
Just so you aren't mislead, DAs have a 4+ not a 5+ - it's just the ShimmerShield that's a 5++ (and DA Exarchs have 4++ shield or no).
Also, great response to the church politics writeup.

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

Coming from a Tyranid player that also have a large 3+ save army, its VASTLY different, my SoB have about 80 models, my Tyranids has about 120 models, and its a HUGE difference, i could love 40 gants in a turn where i never lose 40 sisters

Bharring wrote:
Marmatag,
Your parentheticals on the first post of this page mean you win this page.

Martel,
Just so you aren't mislead, DAs have a 4+ not a 5+ - it's just the ShimmerShield that's a 5++ (and DA Exarchs have 4++ shield or no).
Also, great response to the church politics writeup.

Yeah, i know da are one of the few actually worse off than marines. Even with 5++. Bolters still remove a ton of them, which sucks for their cost.

I still disagree with that. I think DA are just about in line with Marines, but a little ahead - to the point of maybe 1 or 2 ppm, and that only because of the Exarch. I don't think they're in as bad shape as Marines, although they're not far from it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Bolters should remove a ton of them. They're Space Elves.)

My experience has been that Bolters don't remove THAT many and that was in 7e when Bolters hurt more.

Bolters dont deal damage like that in terms of points to any other faction that i know of.

pm713 wrote:
My experience has been that Bolters don't remove THAT many and that was in 7e when Bolters hurt more.

Mostly because you don't fire off enough bolter shots. Anyone who's played against Custodes knows just how effective massed bolter fire is at clearing away T3 6+ models like cultists.

Cheap bolter shots work. Concentrated bolter shots work. Matines have neither.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Plaguebearers aren't Death Guard. They're Daemons.

Edit: Poxwalkers are actually two attacks base. Though their move is only 4" and they have a 7+ instead of a 5++. Still, cheaper than Plaguebearers.

If you're bringing chaos and elect to bring weaker units i can't help you, soup exists, brothy, delicious soup. Use your soup. The second the GSC codex drops i'm going to exploit my only soup option with no shame.

Well, then just bring Guardsmen already. You can do that easily-bring a Supreme Command of GSC (say, two Maguses and a Patriarch or something) and then bring Guard to shore up your weaknesses.

But, as a Nurgle Daemons player and NOT a Death Guard player... Yeah. Genestealers freaking rock. They're not especially durable, but they hit like a truck.

And, as a note... You're basically saying "Don't bring what you like, bring what's good." Which is fine advice for winning. Why are you playing Nids, then, and not Imperium, Chaos, or Eldar Soup? That's stronger than Nids, and clearly, from this post, you only care about winning. Or do you like your Nids, just like I like Daemons, and therefore want them to be better, instead of just ditching what you like for what's good?

I'm doing very, very well with my Tyranids since the codex dropped. And I like genestealers. I run 40 of them for a reason. But they require a lot of thought to play right.

And Plaguebearers and Poxwalkers are pretty much the same thing. This isn't like i'm asking you to throw your models in the trash. And it's Guard without regimental bonuses. If i could get all of the stratagems, command points, regimental bonuses, relics, etc, that full synergy with Guard gives you, I would absolutely have to soup in guard. But you know how limited it is - i assume - which makes your argument rather disingenuous.

You don't get regimental tactics, but you get Strats, you get the CP regen if you want, you get relics... The ONLY THING you don't get are regiment specific things, which are nice to have. But, if guard are as OP as you claim... Surely losing that would still leave them amazing, yes?

And no, they aren't. Learn your Chaos.

Lastly, I want to play Nurgle Daemons. Not Chaos Marines, not Tzeentch, not anything but Daemons of Papa Nurgle. So saying "Use Death Guard vehicles, they kick ass!" is pretty much the same as me telling you "Play one of the three big soups, they kick ass!"

 JNAProductions wrote:
You don't get regimental tactics, but you get Strats, you get the CP regen if you want, you get relics...

Right, and I get nothing regimental specific, which cuts that field down further.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But, if guard are as OP as you claim... Surely losing that would still leave them amazing, yes?

Are you trying to make an argument or be a troll? Pick one. For instance, I can throw in a baneblade variant, but i can't make it hit on 2s with -1 to hit and a 2+ save, or make it outflank, etc. Come on man.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Lastly, I want to play Nurgle Daemons. Not Chaos Marines, not Tzeentch, not anything but Daemons of Papa Nurgle. So saying "Use Death Guard vehicles, they kick ass!" is pretty much the same as me telling you "Play one of the three big soups, they kick ass!"

It's really not, you're still united under the chaos banner. Saying that "guard is to Tyranids" as "death guard is to nurgle" is a dumb argument and you should see that without me having to explain why.

But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

BA battalions definitely are top tier in Imperium armies. Those tend to be Scouts, Captains, maybe Mephiston or Sanguinary Guard. But what's there is top tier.

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

No. But I wouldn't argue that mono-Nurgle Daemons are top tier either. You'll notice that I am fairly consistent in referencing "chaos" as a faction when i do my rankings.

And Guardsmen alone don't make Guard top tier.

meleti wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

BA battalions definitely are top tier in Imperium armies. Those tend to be Scouts, Captains, maybe Mephiston or Sanguinary Guard. But what's there is top tier.

SG are garbage tier, but the rest I agree with.

Martel732 wrote:

meleti wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

BA battalions definitely are top tier in Imperium armies. Those tend to be Scouts, Captains, maybe Mephiston or Sanguinary Guard. But what's there is top tier.

SG are garbage tier, but the rest I agree with.

They're the weakest part and don't make it into lists now that Knights have come up, but the SG package was them and a Sang Priest and it definitely got work done. Made it into a lot of competitive armies from February until June/July when the Knights showed up in force.

edit: oh, and Drukhari screwing over BA stratagems was a big factor there as well.

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You don't get regimental tactics, but you get Strats, you get the CP regen if you want, you get relics...

Right, and I get nothing regimental specific, which cuts that field down further.

 JNAProductions wrote:
But, if guard are as OP as you claim... Surely losing that would still leave them amazing, yes?

Are you trying to make an argument or be a troll? Pick one. For instance, I can throw in a baneblade variant, but i can't make it hit on 2s with -1 to hit and a 2+ save, or make it outflank, etc. Come on man.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Lastly, I want to play Nurgle Daemons. Not Chaos Marines, not Tzeentch, not anything but Daemons of Papa Nurgle. So saying "Use Death Guard vehicles, they kick ass!" is pretty much the same as me telling you "Play one of the three big soups, they kick ass!"

It's really not, you're still united under the chaos banner. Saying that "guard is to Tyranids" as "death guard is to nurgle" is a dumb argument and you should see that without me having to explain why.

You still get most relics, warlord traits, and strats. Notably, you still get Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquila.

And you can still have a 2+ to-hit Baneblade with a 2+ save and -1 to-hit. Bring a Searchlight for your Shadowsword, target something Titanic, and bring two Primaris Psykers.

Actually, you might not be able to bring the Searchlight-I'm not sure of its slot, and you can only bring HQs and an Elite with your LoW in a Supreme Command.

As for that last bit, I'll agree there's a difference of degree, but NOT of principal. You want to play Nids-you have options to ally in Guardsmen via GSC. It's harder than allying in Death Guard is for Nurgle Daemons (you need to spend two detachments, not just one) but the principal is the same.

meleti wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

meleti wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

BA battalions definitely are top tier in Imperium armies. Those tend to be Scouts, Captains, maybe Mephiston or Sanguinary Guard. But what's there is top tier.

SG are garbage tier, but the rest I agree with.

They're the weakest part and don't make it into lists now that Knights have come up, but the SG package was them and a Sang Priest and it definitely got work done. Made it into a lot of competitive armies from February until June/July when the Knights showed up in force.

edit: oh, and Drukhari screwing over BA stratagems was a big factor there as well.

Beta deep strike rules ruined them.

 Jaxler wrote:
My arguemebt is that at 8-9 points with the jump pack they’d be comparable in cost to scions, which they are worse than in every way. Their ability to tie down things in CC is rather pointless when scions will delete a unit instead of making a charge 50~% of the time with a reroll. Also, without their jump packs they literally cannot do anything useful. A guardsmen has better killing power when buffed with orders, and a better gun. Compare an assault marine to a fire warrior. A fire warrior has a vastly better gun and more synergy, and honestly is comparable in CC because they’re both useless in CC.

Convince me that they’re not a 5-6 point model that’s just overpriced.

If they get rid of the rule of 3(which they DEFINITELY should) then a change like this immediately destroys the game. That many 3+ save bodies would be almost impossible to shift. ever.

With the rule of 3, they're still not great at 8-9 points and they're only really a chaff unit at 5-6. The problem with Assault marines is that they just don't have the tools to do anything meaningful. They need GW to stop trying to make them a jack of all trades type thing and give them a role to fill.

It's not though, i have to bring 2 allies to get 1. If i could freely ally in guard, without GSC, and also get regimental bonuses, then yeah, sure, i'd do it. But it is very limited with <Blood Brothers> to the point where it's not worth it.

I suppose I could bring 3 primaris psykers and a baneblade. But, my baneblade will still be inferior to guards, so when I run into guard that's built for it I flatly lose. This is the problem. <Imperium> will do everything I do but more efficiently and with better traits. In that regard, it's a losing proposition.

That said, some Tyranids players have won by allying in and taking a superheavy baneblade variant (probably a shadowsword). When GSC gets a book I might do it myself. But, i need to get more miles out of GSC before it ever even remotely becomes worth it.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
The best way to understand the value of a 3+ is to run units without a 3+.

Except for me. Because my DAs with a shimmershield make more 5++s than my whole army makes 3+/4+ saves. That 5++ has like an 80% success rate.

I do now, and i like them much better. Too many ways 3+ can fail in 8th. The 5++ is very weak on da, but incredibly strong on a raider or venom.

But the 3+ infantry save is a pure liability in 8th because of how gw prices it. And how they price weapons that cut through through easily.

3+ saves on sub 10 point models are fantastic. Nothing like eating 5 rounds of triple quad launcher fire and losing 1 model. Sisters point costs are right around where you start to see 3+ become extremely valuable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

meleti wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

meleti wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But would you argue Marines are top tier, because they can take Guardsmen - as they're Imperial?

BA battalions definitely are top tier in Imperium armies. Those tend to be Scouts, Captains, maybe Mephiston or Sanguinary Guard. But what's there is top tier.

SG are garbage tier, but the rest I agree with.

They're the weakest part and don't make it into lists now that Knights have come up, but the SG package was them and a Sang Priest and it definitely got work done. Made it into a lot of competitive armies from February until June/July when the Knights showed up in force.

edit: oh, and Drukhari screwing over BA stratagems was a big factor there as well.

Beta deep strike rules ruined them.

AM/BA armies? Not really.

Can we also bring up that some people in this thread agree that:
A. Imperial Guardsmen should cost 5 points
B. Assault Marines should cost 5 points

???

Movement, fly, strength, toughness, weapon skill, ballistic skill, melee attacks, bolt weapons, armor saves and near morale immunity count for nothing in this edition, so this seems fair. If anything assault marines should be even cheaper since guardsmen get lasguns.

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Can we also bring up that some people in this thread agree that:
A. Imperial Guardsmen should cost 5 points
B. Assault Marines should cost 5 points

???

I don't think that anyone in this thread seriously believes that ASM should be anything less than 10 points, those who say the contrary are just doing that for fun and to stir the discussion.

Spoletta wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Can we also bring up that some people in this thread agree that:
A. Imperial Guardsmen should cost 5 points
B. Assault Marines should cost 5 points

???

I don't think that anyone in this thread seriously believes that ASM should be anything less than 10 points, those who say the contrary are just doing that for fun and to stir the discussion.

I think 9 is reasonable - if a tac marine is 10 - then 11 or 12 with a jump pack. It is perfectly reasonable points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:
Can we also bring up that some people in this thread agree that:
A. Imperial Guardsmen should cost 5 points
B. Assault Marines should cost 5 points

???

I don't think that anyone in this thread seriously believes that ASM should be anything less than 10 points, those who say the contrary are just doing that for fun and to stir the discussion.

I think 9 is reasonable - if a tac marine is 10 - then 11 or 12 with a jump pack. It is perfectly reasonable points.

I disagree with ASM costing less than tacs, provided though that the cost of melee weapons goes considerably down for them. There is no reason why a bonesword is 2 points and a lightning claw is 8.
With eviscerators costing a reasonable amount of points (8, at least for ASM) and other melee weapons getting cheaper, 10 points is the right cost for ASM.
They become a good bully unit if used with packs, or a worthy package for a rhino if without packs (10 ASM with decent equp and a Rhino would come around 200 points, fair).

Also, i would add to the chaplain aura that they reroll charges. In general the game would be more healthy if the SM factions could perform the correct mix of assault and shooting that they are expected too. As long as SM are purely shooting, then they will not work and the game will miss a founding element. Most of the problems we have with shooting being overperforming, is due to the SM not being able to pose a melee threath and the game is skewed as a consequence.

I think it's pretty simple. Assualt marines should cost less than tactical marines because they do the exact same damage per turn - except - assault marines have get get within 1" do do their damage but tacs can do most their damage at 12" or even 24" if they have to.

Mobility is nice but increased mobility is not worth a loss of damage at even equal points cost.

Things like evicerators going down in price should also be included in any change to them too. They have 1 attack - they weapon is absolutely useless on them. It should be 5 points - lol.

I am totally fine with the unit having poor upgrade options - these are essentially rookie marines. It's possibly some of their first battles.

I dunno about the damage argument. My ASM squad can shut down a Predator or Russ the turn they engage. Or a backfield camper unit. My Tac squads can't do that.

Granted, they cost too much and it takes too much to make that happen currently. But the same goes for Tacs.

I still agree that ASM are in a worse spot than Tacs, and that Tacs are in a bad spot. I still think 11ppm ASM w/2ppm Jetpacks (like VV), beside 11ppm Tacs, with +1A at least for the ASM (I'd like to see it on all Battle Brothers) would be a better spot. But then, that's still balanced more around the 'Boyz/Necron/Nid troop balance level, not the Guardsman/Kabs balance level.

I think all the CC weapons in the Marine dex are costed much more fairly for Characters than squadies - with the notable exception of Vanguard Vets. I'd imagine if Sarges payed ~1-2pts for a Power Weapon, and other such costs, while that alone wouldn't change the game, it might offer some utility and add character. Not to mention what sane per-unit costs would do to Terminator squads (not necessarily make them good, but certainly less overcosted).

For a comparison, lets look at the Eldar CC weapons. Banshees are a 13ppm model, after paying 4ppm for the power sword. That means they pay 9ppm for a Dire Avenger body +plus+ super movement +plus+ ignore overwatch, on top of being a dirty Space Elf (with all the OP that entails). 9ppm is easily cheap enough for the body. But at 13ppm - paying 4ppm for a Power Sword - they're bad (even with Space Elf shenanigans). Very bad. And look at Storm Guardians. You can pay 4ppm to give a 7ppm frame a Power Sword, and even hide it behind 7ppm ablaitive wounds. But it's not even worth the 4ppm they pay. So should the Eldar power sword be dropped down? Well, I'd argue 4ppm for a Power Sword on an Autarch is more than worth it - only overshadowed by better options. So it shouldn't go down in points. So how do you balance that?

11ppm ASM with 2ppm Jetpacks and +1A and 1-2pts for Sarge powerweapon, with an option for a cheaper Executioner, and we're looking at a unit that can be used. Not a super scary threat (that should be VV), but capable of playing the bully - like it should be. Throw in a fix for Flamers and maybe even Plasma Pistols, and they'd actually have a use. Not meta-shifting OP, but a place in some lists.

Final point - most ASM on the tabletop are *not* rookie marines. While there is a Reserve Company full of them in most chapters, the first two ASM squads (whether as that entry, as bikers, or as drivers) are much more likely to be part of a Battle Company, even in engagements with Scouts. If a Tactical Squad is on the board, those odds jump substantially. While a little more than half the ASM of the typical chapter are Rookies, Battle Companies are in the field much more frequently and represented on the tabletop much more frequently than the *reserve*. SM Reserves do see action, but they're still reserves.

How you do you balance ASM and VV when they are literally the same thing but one has added bling?

By looking at what differentiates them: loadout options.

ASM are bullies. No matter how you kit them, they aren't taking down a Dread in one round of CC. You can kit them to be better at bullying different threats (melta bomb and/or plas pistol for harassing tanks, power sword for MEQ targets, power maul/flamer for light targets like Rangers/Guardsmen). But even at it's best, a Dread or Berzerkers or just about any other actual CC unit should trash them regardless of how you kitted them. They are *not* a CC threat.

VV pay too much to just bully the small stuff. But you can kit them to be an actual CC threat. Power weapons (or dual Chainswords) will make short-ish work of many light targets ASM would just tie up. Thunder Hammers or Power Fist will let them drop a vehicle. Throw on some Storm Shields, and they can even stand up in CC against Dreads and MCs. They shouldn't be as heavy a CC threat as Zerkers or other dedicated CC units. But they should be more mobile than Zerkers or other heavier dedicated CC units.

In other words, ASM are the Assault Marines that specialize in outmaneuvering the enemy and supporting Tacs in offensive operations. VV are a Veteran unit that can take the fight to the enemy, and even form the vanguard of a protracted CC fight. The rules don't currently make either great, but the themes and potential is definitely there.

Unfortunately VV aren't very good at what they do. And ASM are only 1 ppm cheaper.

2 points cheaper. One point each for LD and attack. So now they're also even less likely to flee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2 points cheaper. One point each for LD and attack. So now they're also even less likely to flee.

Is that an aknowledgement that morale matters?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2 points cheaper. One point each for LD and attack. So now they're also even less likely to flee.

Is that an aknowledgement that morale matters?

It doesn't to me. I'm content with the better options and extra attack for the 2 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2 points cheaper. One point each for LD and attack. So now they're also even less likely to flee.

Is that an aknowledgement that morale matters?

It doesn't to me. I'm content with the better options and extra attack for the 2 points.

Not mattering to you personally is a far cry from:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody cares about morale checks. Morale is a useless mechanic just like in last edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No morale isn't a thing. Quit acting like it is.

Just sayin.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2 points cheaper. One point each for LD and attack. So now they're also even less likely to flee.

Is that an aknowledgement that morale matters?

It doesn't to me. I'm content with the better options and extra attack for the 2 points.

Not mattering to you personally is a far cry from:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Nobody cares about morale checks. Morale is a useless mechanic just like in last edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No morale isn't a thing. Quit acting like it is.

Just sayin.

Well lemme rephrase that for you.

Morale doesn't matter. Extra LD would mostly matter for psyker shenanigans.

Morale is hugely important for anyone not playing an army with high leadership and re-rolling morale tests.

meleti wrote:
Morale is hugely important for anyone not playing an army with high leadership and re-rolling morale tests.

And who would that be?

Tyel wrote:

meleti wrote:
Morale is hugely important for anyone not playing an army with high leadership and re-rolling morale tests.

And who would that be?

Lists people dont play like Horde SoB 10 girl units lists, Horde 10-20 man/girl/Beast units DE, etc..

Sisters of Battle should cost 3 points. Prove me wrong. I dare you.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Sisters of Battle should cost 3 points. Prove me wrong. I dare you.

I dont make dares with people that reads 9 as a 3

Well, in the Proposed Rules section, we have Necron Warriors being buffed to out-CC even things like Shining Spears and Berzerkers.

Faced with that, 3ppm Sisters don't sound so bad.

Where's my buff Hormagants and Termagants thread? Are there so few Tyranids players running around in 8th these days?

ASM @ 9 pts would be awesome as a start

Make chainswords AP-1

how is it still the same profile as a damn butter knife?

let a squad take a melta bomb rather than the one guy (SGT) that can take the damn power fist!

and then come back in 6 months see how it's going on


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
Where's my buff Hormagants and Termagants thread? Are there so few Tyranids players running around in 8th these days?

I bought a Kraken army and built 60 stealers so I can get my assault fix that space marines wasn't giving me.

I'm not replacing them with gaunts at whatever the cost! .... sooooo many arms !!

9 points is just too cheap for power armored bodies.

Yes, sisters are too cheap.

I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

 Marmatag wrote:
9 points is just too cheap for power armored bodies.

Yes, sisters are too cheap.

I play Sisters, and no, its not to cheap, not at all, they are just about perfect.

Yea, 9 is fine for PA
when it a sister's statline. Marine line is notably better with its higher WS, S and most important T.

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

And that leaves anyone without OP troops out in the cold? That doesn't make sense. 9PPM power armor is too cheap when Tyranids are paying 5ppm for Hormagants and 6ppm for Gargoyles.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

And that leaves anyone without OP troops out in the cold? That doesn't make sense. 9PPM power armor is too cheap when Tyranids are paying 5ppm for Hormagants and 6ppm for Gargoyles.

One of my main armies is Nids and i completely dissagree (mainly b.c i feel nids Hgants and Gargoyles just need to go down 1pt and b.c of the support of other nids), no one takes Goyles b.c they are unbalanced, Comparing an unbalance unit to a balanced one to show that balanced unit is OP is stupid.

The different is buffs, Tyranids have things the Sister dont, sob literally is 6" move S3, T3, WS4, A1, LD7/8, with a bolter/pistol/nage. a Hormagant is 8" move S3, T3, ws4 as well, but the 3 differences are, Hgants are 2A and has a very strong special rule and the army can give them FnP, better movements, 100% immune to moral, etc...

For 4pts difference the Sister is getting 3+ Sv and Pistol/Bolter. IMO a 3+ vs 6+ save is worth 4pts, while losing an attack and movement for shooting weapons.

PS: Rets and Doms are 10ppm, only the Troops are 9ppm

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

And that leaves anyone without OP troops out in the cold? That doesn't make sense. 9PPM power armor is too cheap when Tyranids are paying 5ppm for Hormagants and 6ppm for Gargoyles.

One of my main armies is Nids and i completely dissagree (mainly b.c i feel nids Hgants and Gargoyles just need to go down 1pt and b.c of the support of other nids), no one takes Goyles b.c they are unbalanced, Comparing an unbalance unit to a balanced one to show that balanced unit is OP is stupid.

The different is buffs, Tyranids have things the Sister dont, sob literally is 6" move S3, T3, WS4, A1, LD7/8, with a bolter/pistol/nage. a Hormagant is 8" move S3, T3, ws4 as well, but the 3 differences are, Hgants are 2A and has a very strong special rule and the army can give them FnP, better movements, 100% immune to moral, etc...

For 4pts difference the Sister is getting 3+ Sv and Pistol/Bolter. IMO a 3+ vs 6+ save is worth 4pts, while losing an attack and movement for shooting weapons.

PS: Rets and Doms are 10ppm, only the Troops are 9ppm

Typical to consider all the synergies Tyranids get, yet none of the synergies Sisters get. Going from a 6+ save to a 3+ save, is worth 4 points alone, forgetting that they also get a rapid fire 24" strength 4 gun, on 3+ BS. Forgetting that sisters get acts of faith, can ride in transports, etc. Claiming Tyranids are immune to morale is false. They have synapse. The ability itself is provided for and costed by another model. You start talking about psychic powers, yet don't mention acts of faith. Your argument would be "who is using acts of faith on a regular sisters squad?" to which i would counter with, "no one is casting catalyst on their basic hormagant squads." Of course you're also forgetting that catalyst can fail, AoF is pretty dern guaranteed isn't it?

Units like hormagants don't win fights. They deny deep strike and can maybe tie stuff up in combat if your opponent is derpy. I would much rather be able to pay 45 points and camp a unit in cover on an objective, with a 2+ save that can be regenerated if need be.

Well they'd cast Catalyst on a full size squad maybe. Nobody would run a full size Sister squad though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well they'd cast Catalyst on a full size squad maybe. Nobody would run a full size Sister squad though.

It's possible that people will run max size squads now that reaper is adjusted.

I can tell you that running big blobs sounds attractive but Tyranids don't have the true gunline to support that kind of investment.

The way i would run it would involve 60 hormagants and 9 carnifex with some hive guard. And then, i'm probably saving catalyst for the hive guard. Of course that's still not strong enough shooting to win a firefight, which kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? Assuming you run at least one hive tyrant, that is the prime candidate for your catalyst.

You guys can short-sell power armor all you want, but it makes a massive difference. And power armor (from a 6+ save) + a boltgun + 3BS is absolutely worth 4 points, any day of the week.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I disagree. They seem about right compared to guardsmen/kabalites. They are power armor done correctly in 8th ed.

And that leaves anyone without OP troops out in the cold? That doesn't make sense. 9PPM power armor is too cheap when Tyranids are paying 5ppm for Hormagants and 6ppm for Gargoyles.

One of my main armies is Nids and i completely dissagree (mainly b.c i feel nids Hgants and Gargoyles just need to go down 1pt and b.c of the support of other nids), no one takes Goyles b.c they are unbalanced, Comparing an unbalance unit to a balanced one to show that balanced unit is OP is stupid.

The different is buffs, Tyranids have things the Sister dont, sob literally is 6" move S3, T3, WS4, A1, LD7/8, with a bolter/pistol/nage. a Hormagant is 8" move S3, T3, ws4 as well, but the 3 differences are, Hgants are 2A and has a very strong special rule and the army can give them FnP, better movements, 100% immune to moral, etc...

For 4pts difference the Sister is getting 3+ Sv and Pistol/Bolter. IMO a 3+ vs 6+ save is worth 4pts, while losing an attack and movement for shooting weapons.

PS: Rets and Doms are 10ppm, only the Troops are 9ppm

Typical to consider all the synergies Tyranids get, yet none of the synergies Sisters get. Going from a 6+ save to a 3+ save, is worth 4 points alone, forgetting that they also get a rapid fire 24" strength 4 gun, on 3+ BS. Forgetting that sisters get acts of faith, can ride in transports, etc. Claiming Tyranids are immune to morale is false. They have synapse. The ability itself is provided for and costed by another model. You start talking about psychic powers, yet don't mention acts of faith. Your argument would be "who is using acts of faith on a regular sisters squad?" to which i would counter with, "no one is casting catalyst on their basic hormagant squads." Of course you're also forgetting that catalyst can fail, AoF is pretty dern guaranteed isn't it?

Units like hormagants don't win fights. They deny deep strike and can maybe tie stuff up in combat if your opponent is derpy. I would much rather be able to pay 45 points and camp a unit in cover on an objective, with a 2+ save that can be regenerated if need be.

I didnt forget those, AoF are very limited and you need to invest to gain more than 1. If you want to invest 200pts so your 6 units can have a good chance to use them then go ahead.

Sob are shooters and Hgants are melee units that can get into melee very easily, turn 1 if you wanted too.

You should look at Tgants as they are the shooting unit, But you dont want to b.c they are 4ppm and costed a bit more balanced, where Hgants should be 4ppm and Goyles should be 5ppm, again you are trying to compare a Unit that might not be balanced to a unit that is more balanced AND 2 units that DONT fit the same role.

Look at a Tgant compare to a BSS then, its a Assault 12" bolter for 4ppm with a 6+ save, the BSS is now 5pts more costly.

If SOB 9ppm is to good, then why dont you see SoB armies at tournaments running 4-6 troops? Instead you see Seraphim and Rets, just like in CSM you see Havocs and Noise marines, just like in other lists you dont need the base troops for them, just b.c YOU think they are OP doesnt mean they are.

I literally play a Horde sisters list with 6 Troops, 5 Fast, 3 Heavys all bodies, no tanks, they are good against marines only b.c Marines are bad currently. Against CWE? DE? Daemons even, they are not very good.

BSS are one of the more balanced units in the game.

Part of the reason is that Sister armies are hard to put together at a reasonable cost.

If that were true, Seer Councils wouldn't have been OP until GW put out a dedicated kit...

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I didnt forget those, AoF are very limited and you need to invest to gain more than 1. If you want to invest 200pts so your 6 units can have a good chance to use them then go ahead.

You can cast catalyst once per turn. it is more limited than acts of faith. Besides being able to shoot twice for free is a huge freaking deal.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sob are shooters and Hgants are melee units that can get into melee very easily, turn 1 if you wanted too.

Any unit can get a turn 1 charge in the right scenario if your opponent is bad. That's not a good example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You should look at Tgants as they are the shooting unit, But you dont want to b.c they are 4ppm and costed a bit more balanced, where Hgants should be 4ppm and Goyles should be 5ppm, again you are trying to compare a Unit that might not be balanced to a unit that is more balanced AND 2 units that DONT fit the same role.

Look at a Tgant compare to a BSS then, its a Assault 12" bolter for 4ppm with a 6+ save, the BSS is now 5pts more costly.

I don't want to look at Tgants because they're garbage. A 12" range gun makes them there purely to screen. A 3+ save, 3+ bs, and 24" range, are worth 5 points over termagants. They are.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

If SOB 9ppm is to good, then why dont you see SoB armies at tournaments running 4-6 troops? Instead you see Seraphim and Rets, just like in CSM you see Havocs and Noise marines, just like in other lists you dont need the base troops for them, just b.c YOU think they are OP doesnt mean they are.

Same reason you don't see termagants and hormagants doing anything in top tyranid lists? Is your argument based on tournaments that you've seen, or just looking at faction based data on BCP or BOK? And you're putting words in my mouth, because you are here to argue nonsensically. Read what i'm writing and respond to that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I literally play a Horde sisters list with 6 Troops, 5 Fast, 3 Heavys all bodies, no tanks, they are good against marines only b.c Marines are bad currently. Against CWE? DE? Daemons even, they are not very good.

So basically you play a poorly built sisters army and can't win, therefore you don't have access to good units? Reread what you wrote, it makes like 0 sense.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
BSS are one of the more balanced units in the game.

They're an index army. if sisters are balanced without a codex what does that tell you?

 Marmatag wrote:
Where's my buff Hormagants and Termagants thread? Are there so few Tyranids players running around in 8th these days?

Well there's the 'I only need Hive Tyrants' subfaction, the 'Pure Tyranid Warriors are where it's at' list, and the 'must be a way to make 30 biovores work' subfaction...

 Marmatag wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I didnt forget those, AoF are very limited and you need to invest to gain more than 1. If you want to invest 200pts so your 6 units can have a good chance to use them then go ahead.

You can cast catalyst once per turn. it is more limited than acts of faith. Besides being able to shoot twice for free is a huge freaking deal.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sob are shooters and Hgants are melee units that can get into melee very easily, turn 1 if you wanted too.

Any unit can get a turn 1 charge in the right scenario if your opponent is bad. That's not a good example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You should look at Tgants as they are the shooting unit, But you dont want to b.c they are 4ppm and costed a bit more balanced, where Hgants should be 4ppm and Goyles should be 5ppm, again you are trying to compare a Unit that might not be balanced to a unit that is more balanced AND 2 units that DONT fit the same role.

Look at a Tgant compare to a BSS then, its a Assault 12" bolter for 4ppm with a 6+ save, the BSS is now 5pts more costly.

I don't want to look at Tgants because they're garbage. A 12" range gun makes them there purely to screen. A 3+ save, 3+ bs, and 24" range, are worth 5 points over termagants. They are.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

If SOB 9ppm is to good, then why dont you see SoB armies at tournaments running 4-6 troops? Instead you see Seraphim and Rets, just like in CSM you see Havocs and Noise marines, just like in other lists you dont need the base troops for them, just b.c YOU think they are OP doesnt mean they are.

Same reason you don't see termagants and hormagants doing anything in top tyranid lists? Is your argument based on tournaments that you've seen, or just looking at faction based data on BCP or BOK? And you're putting words in my mouth, because you are here to argue nonsensically. Read what i'm writing and respond to that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I literally play a Horde sisters list with 6 Troops, 5 Fast, 3 Heavys all bodies, no tanks, they are good against marines only b.c Marines are bad currently. Against CWE? DE? Daemons even, they are not very good.

So basically you play a poorly built sisters army and can't win, therefore you don't have access to good units? Reread what you wrote, it makes like 0 sense.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
BSS are one of the more balanced units in the game.

They're an index army. if sisters are balanced without a codex what does that tell you?

Thanks for proving me correct, i play with 9pt BSS and you just said its a poorily built army, if 60 9pt models are poor then why are you arguing they are to good?

The only reason you dont see Tgants is b.c Rippers can DS and are cheaper and Genestealers are a must, there is you up to 6 Troops you might want.

Tgants/Hgants/Goyles are not very good, I fully agree with you, and you still want to compare a BSS to them?


No matter what you say no one is going to think Sisters are OP and needs to go up in points b.c "power armor"

Power armor has become a joke, just like in 2nd. It works on sisters because they sub 10 pts.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I didnt forget those, AoF are very limited and you need to invest to gain more than 1. If you want to invest 200pts so your 6 units can have a good chance to use them then go ahead.

You can cast catalyst once per turn. it is more limited than acts of faith. Besides being able to shoot twice for free is a huge freaking deal.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Sob are shooters and Hgants are melee units that can get into melee very easily, turn 1 if you wanted too.

Any unit can get a turn 1 charge in the right scenario if your opponent is bad. That's not a good example.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

You should look at Tgants as they are the shooting unit, But you dont want to b.c they are 4ppm and costed a bit more balanced, where Hgants should be 4ppm and Goyles should be 5ppm, again you are trying to compare a Unit that might not be balanced to a unit that is more balanced AND 2 units that DONT fit the same role.

Look at a Tgant compare to a BSS then, its a Assault 12" bolter for 4ppm with a 6+ save, the BSS is now 5pts more costly.

I don't want to look at Tgants because they're garbage. A 12" range gun makes them there purely to screen. A 3+ save, 3+ bs, and 24" range, are worth 5 points over termagants. They are.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

If SOB 9ppm is to good, then why dont you see SoB armies at tournaments running 4-6 troops? Instead you see Seraphim and Rets, just like in CSM you see Havocs and Noise marines, just like in other lists you dont need the base troops for them, just b.c YOU think they are OP doesnt mean they are.

Same reason you don't see termagants and hormagants doing anything in top tyranid lists? Is your argument based on tournaments that you've seen, or just looking at faction based data on BCP or BOK? And you're putting words in my mouth, because you are here to argue nonsensically. Read what i'm writing and respond to that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

I literally play a Horde sisters list with 6 Troops, 5 Fast, 3 Heavys all bodies, no tanks, they are good against marines only b.c Marines are bad currently. Against CWE? DE? Daemons even, they are not very good.

So basically you play a poorly built sisters army and can't win, therefore you don't have access to good units? Reread what you wrote, it makes like 0 sense.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
BSS are one of the more balanced units in the game.

They're an index army. if sisters are balanced without a codex what does that tell you?

Thanks for proving me correct, i play with 9pt BSS and you just said its a poorily built army, if 60 9pt models are poor then why are you arguing they are to good?

The only reason you dont see Tgants is b.c Rippers can DS and are cheaper and Genestealers are a must, there is you up to 6 Troops you might want.

Tgants/Hgants/Goyles are not very good, I fully agree with you, and you still want to compare a BSS to them?


No matter what you say no one is going to think Sisters are OP and needs to go up in points b.c "power armor"

Dude you can't just run a one dimensional army composed entirely of troops and win, regardless of the faction.

I didn't say BSS were OP, i just said 9points is too cheap for power armor. There are shades of grey in regards to balance.

This all started with discussing assault marines at 9 points, which is why we originated with Hormagant comparison.

Genestealers are solid, rippers are good because they're cheap and DS, as you mentioned. If i could take BSS in place of hormagants or termagants I absolutely would. When GSC book drops i'll probably get my CP that way.

9 ppm is not too cheap for power armor. It's about right the way 8th ed plays. AP mods everywhere.

9pts for BSS isnt to cheap tho, if it was to cheap you see them all over the place, only SoB lovers like me play them.


If you think ASM needs ot be 9ppm, WTF then SOB needs to be 7-8ppm, b.c they dont have anything like what ASM has.

ASM should be 13 ppm with pack and 2 attacks base.

Too many marine jump units break the 20 ppm threshold after being equipped, and that's untenable in 8th. That's why ba dc are now useless.

This is kind of insane. I am not on board with power armor being that cheap. Sisters will get better with their codex, and they're already a very good index army.

 Marmatag wrote:
This is kind of insane. I am not on board with power armor being that cheap. Sisters will get better with their codex, and they're already a very good index army.

Power armor is ignored or reduced to a 6 so much, so why not? When you get to the mid teens for cost, brute forcing with ap 0 becomes viable.

There should be at least one good power armor faction.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is kind of insane. I am not on board with power armor being that cheap. Sisters will get better with their codex, and they're already a very good index army.

Power armor is ignored or reduced to a 6 so much, so why not? When you get to the mid teens for cost, brute forcing with ap 0 becomes viable.

There should be at least one good power armor faction.

Thousand Sons and Death Guard are viable. Khorne Berzerkers are viable.. CSM in general are viable. The problem with marines is offense, not defense.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This is kind of insane. I am not on board with power armor being that cheap. Sisters will get better with their codex, and they're already a very good index army.

Power armor is ignored or reduced to a 6 so much, so why not? When you get to the mid teens for cost, brute forcing with ap 0 becomes viable.

There should be at least one good power armor faction.

Thousand Sons and Death Guard are viable. Khorne Berzerkers are viable.. CSM in general are viable. The problem with marines is offense, not defense.

Because CSM rely so heavily on cultists and demon princes and such, I don't fully put them in the power armor bin. Maybe I should.

Tsons have invuln on top of power armor.
DG have T5 and FNP on top of power armor.
Khorne berserkers fight TWICE on top of power armor.

These are all radical departures from what loyalists have access to. I'd say loyalists are taking it up the ass both offensively and defensively. DC move 12", and attack a bunch of times, but die like sisters of battle when hit by disintegrator cannons. Or plasma. Or any other fashionable weapon of the week. For 20+ ppm. That's unplayable in 8th. That's the closest I've got to chaos marine. What a joke.