Is there any legit knowledgeable person here who has read how much the Imperium knows about Old Earth? As far as I know, they know very little. We can barely keep track of records from 2,000 years ago in our world. SO the Imperium would have it harder, especially since most were destroyed in the Age of Strife.
The Emperor knows everything about human history, as he has displayed.
The Last Church said:
"Revelation snapped his fingers. 'That's exactly my point. You pick and choose which bits of your book to take literally and which to read as symbolic, and that choosing is a matter of personal decision, not divinity. Trust me, in ages past, a frightening number of people took their holy books absolutely literally, causing untold misery and death because they truly believed the words they read. The history of religion is a horror story, Uriah, and if you doubt it, just look at what humanity has done in the name of their gods over the millennia. Thousands of years ago, a bloody theocracy that venerated a feathered-serpent god rose in the Mayan jungles. To appease this vile god, its priests drowned maidens in sacred wells and cut out the hearts of children. They believed this serpent god had an earthly counterpart and the temple builders drove the first pile through a maiden's body to pacify this non-existent creature.'Uriah turned to Revelation in horror and said, 'You can't seriously compare my religion to such heathen barbarism?''Can't I?' countered Revelation. 'In the name of your religion, a holy man launched a war with the battle cry of "Deus Vult", which means "god wills it" in one of the ancient tongues of Old Earth. His warriors were charged with destroying enemies in a far-off kingdom, but first they fell upon those in their own lands who opposed the war. Thousands were dragged from their homes and hacked to death or burned alive. Then, satisfied their homeland was secure, the zealous legions plundered their way thousands of miles to the holy city they were to liberate. Upon reaching it, they killed every inhabitant to "purify" the symbolic city of taint. I remember one of their leaders saying that he rode in blood up to the knees and even to his horse's bridle, by the just and marvellous judgement of god.''That is ancient history,' said Uriah. 'You cannot vouchsafe the truth of events so lost in the mists of time.''If it were one event, I might agree with you,' replied Revelation, 'but just a hundred or so years later, another holy man declared war on a sect of his own church. His warriors laid siege to the sect's stronghold in ancient Franc, and when the city fell his generals asked their leader how they might tell the faithful from the traitor among the captives. This man, who followed your god, ordered the warriors to "Kill them all. God will know His own". Nearly twenty thousand men, women and children were slaughtered. Worst of all, the hunt for any that had escaped the siege led to the establishment of an organisation known as the Inquisition, a dreadful, monstrous plague of hysteria that gave its agents free rein to stretch, burn, pierce and break their victims on fiendish pain machines to force them to confess to disbelief and identify fellow transgressors. Later, with most of their enemies hunted down and killed, the Inquisition shifted its focus to wychcraft, and priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they engaged in unnatural acts with daemons. They were then burned or hanged for their confessions and this hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations, a madness that saw whole towns exterminated and over a hundred thousand dead.'"
I read Mark of Calth. And it looks like even people during the Great Crusade did not know about Old Earth. Perpetual Oll Persson tells Katt and the other people with him about his time on Old Earth, and they were none the wiser about human history before that.
And its a fact the Emperor was born in Anatolia, as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader shows (if you still think it is accurate to current lore http://imgur.com/dImnK6j
One of the jobs of the Order of Sigilites is to preserve history. In one of the HH short stories, a group of Malcador's agents retrieve a sealed container from some Chaos worshipers. Opening it, the leader is angry to discover it is just a lump of rock and nearly jettisons it but eventually follows his orders to bring it back to Terra. Malcador then explains that it is the Rosetta stone and explains some of its significance.
So there are people who still are interested in ancient history but they are a small and academic minority with little relevance to day-to-day Imperial Citizens. We know Malcador does not survive the Siege but we don't know if the order of Sigilites carried on.
In Prospero Burns, we get a lot of conversations between Hawser and other Imperial officials that makes it clear that outside a handful of high officials, (the Emperor and a few select advisers), the IOM does not want to know much about Old Earth and looking into it is not a priority.
Karhedron wrote: One of the jobs of the Order of Sigilites is to preserve history. In one of the HH short stories, a group of Malcador's agents retrieve a sealed container from some Chaos worshipers. Opening it, the leader is angry to discover it is just a lump of rock and nearly jettisons it but eventually follows his orders to bring it back to Terra. Malcador then explains that it is the Rosetta stone and explains some of its significance.
So there are people who still are interested in ancient history but they are a small and academic minority with little relevance to day-to-day Imperial Citizens. We know Malcador does not survive the Siege but we don't know if the order of Sigilites carried on.
Mark of Calth seems to show Perpetual Oll Persson telling 30k Imperials about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser about Old Earth before that.
And I meant to say also the 41st millennium Imperium. How much do they know? I doubt they know about World War 1 or anything like that.
And can you show a quote about the Rosetta stone?
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HoundsofDemos wrote: In Prospero Burns, we get a lot of conversations between Hawser and other Imperial officials that makes it clear that outside a handful of high officials, (the Emperor and a few select advisers), the IOM does not want to know much about Old Earth and looking into it is not a priority.
I would love to read the quote for that. I just want to read it for myself.
Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
It's to long to quote since I'm not going to retype a four to five pages of a novel. The end of the exchanged ends with "answer me this" he said Does anyone even know why the age of strife happened? How did we end up in the great darkness of the Old Night to begin with"
He spends most of the book trying to get the IOM officials to do a hard look back in time and is meet with either outright hostility or patronizing indifference.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
.
And that's a Horus Heresy book, Flight of the Eisenstain is.
Mark of Calth basically said even the 30k Imperium does not know about Old Earth, as Perpetual Oll Persson was telling people who escaped Calth about his time on Old Earth, and they were none the wiser about Old Earth before that.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
Bear in mind that for most of the last 30k years in real history digital data storage didn't exist. For the next 30k years (following the 40k timeline) it will.
Obviously there are plenty of events that disrupt it, and 30k years is a very long time, but with how easy it is to copy and move information for most of that time it probably doesn't really become an issue until either the Emperor starts messing about with recorded history or the ecclesiarchy starts declaring it heresy.
I find generally I think of what the Imperium knows about the present day to be similar to what the citizens of Alpha Complex know about history and the world out side.
The Imperium somewhere will have communists worshipping Grocho Marx
given where 40k started out this seems very fitting
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
I'm not sure why people are expecting there to be loads of info. Even the jump from the HH to present day 40k is longer than our own current recorded history (plus on a galactic scale to boot). There's scant few pieces of info that have been corrupted by years of Chinese whispers such as the example you said and things like "Shakespire" and the toy rocket with CCCP on it.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
I'm not sure why people are expecting there to be loads of info. Even the jump from the HH to present day 40k is longer than our own current recorded history (plus on a galactic scale to boot). There's scant few pieces of info that have been corrupted by years of Chinese whispers such as the example you said and things like "Shakespire" and the toy rocket with CCCP on it.
Shakespeare didn't share his plays on the cloud though.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
I'm not sure why people are expecting there to be loads of info. Even the jump from the HH to present day 40k is longer than our own current recorded history (plus on a galactic scale to boot). There's scant few pieces of info that have been corrupted by years of Chinese whispers such as the example you said and things like "Shakespire" and the toy rocket with CCCP on it.
Shakespeare didn't share his plays on the cloud though.
Thank gork he didn't, if he had we would likely have found them inaccessible after about ten years as the DRM server was switched off, or the format they were written in was declared illegal as it may be used to share information the powers that be wish to censor or some other such rubbish.
pen on paper has proven remarkably long lived compared to the very real issue of "bit rot" around digital stuff
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
I'm not sure why people are expecting there to be loads of info. Even the jump from the HH to present day 40k is longer than our own current recorded history (plus on a galactic scale to boot). There's scant few pieces of info that have been corrupted by years of Chinese whispers such as the example you said and things like "Shakespire" and the toy rocket with CCCP on it.
Shakespeare didn't share his plays on the cloud though.
Thank gork he didn't, if he had we would likely have found them inaccessible after about ten years as the DRM server was switched off, or the format they were written in was declared illegal as it may be used to share information the powers that be wish to censor or some other such rubbish.
pen on paper has proven remarkably long lived compared to the very real issue of "bit rot" around digital stuff
Ok, but more relevantly, what would it take for all records of basic historic events to be removed from the internet?
Or to completely destroy the internet, assuming that the data is also shared around the galaxy on various planetary and ship based servers?
I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but it's going to take a LOT.
well 1. some sort of global EMP thing, since I doubt most of the servers are hardened against it
or possibly just the indexing systems crashing, which would make finding things a pain.
besides who is to say much of whats known about the world today survived long enough to leave the planet?
Companies only care about what they can sell, and generally want to 'paywall' it so its not accessible, private stuff is generally free but also generally not backed up.
it may be reasonably easy in the future to put the internet in a black box with a red LED on it and give it to some middle management type on a long haul space mission (indeed several of them), but somewhere there will be an accountant asking why you are doing it and where the profit is.
stuff gets written and stuff gets lost all the time, the one sit it was on goes dark and its gone - unless someone else thought it important enough to make a copy of, and not simply link to
stuff on paper survived because to distribute it you needed to actually copy it, on line people just link and forget, then the linsk break and are never fixed.
a server without a backup goes off line, or there is a fire etc.
This is before you have stuff like the unfinished works of the sadly late Sir Terry P, crushed by steam roller as per his wishes and thus lost forever
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
I'm not sure why people are expecting there to be loads of info. Even the jump from the HH to present day 40k is longer than our own current recorded history (plus on a galactic scale to boot). There's scant few pieces of info that have been corrupted by years of Chinese whispers such as the example you said and things like "Shakespire" and the toy rocket with CCCP on it.
Shakespeare didn't share his plays on the cloud though.
Modern (and future) playwrights don't have to deal with the DAOT right now. Think about how much gak we lost in our own history to the dark ages. Now multiply that on a galactic scale and the chances of there being anything truly significant drastic go down.
leopard wrote: well 1. some sort of global EMP thing, since I doubt most of the servers are hardened against it
or possibly just the indexing systems crashing, which would make finding things a pain.
besides who is to say much of whats known about the world today survived long enough to leave the planet?
Companies only care about what they can sell, and generally want to 'paywall' it so its not accessible, private stuff is generally free but also generally not backed up.
it may be reasonably easy in the future to put the internet in a black box with a red LED on it and give it to some middle management type on a long haul space mission (indeed several of them), but somewhere there will be an accountant asking why you are doing it and where the profit is.
stuff gets written and stuff gets lost all the time, the one sit it was on goes dark and its gone - unless someone else thought it important enough to make a copy of, and not simply link to
stuff on paper survived because to distribute it you needed to actually copy it, on line people just link and forget, then the linsk break and are never fixed.
a server without a backup goes off line, or there is a fire etc.
This is before you have stuff like the unfinished works of the sadly late Sir Terry P, crushed by steam roller as per his wishes and thus lost forever
Once it's off planet, it's much harder for a disaster to remove it. If it survives anywhere, it spreads back everywhere.
If the government privatise the entire internet (big if frankly) people will still setup their own thing separate to it, even if much of the general public aren't aware of it day to day. Dark web or what have you. People will find a way to communicate and share information regardless.
As I said above, once you get to state control on the level of the ecclesiarchy it gets tougher. Where you can be executed immediately and without trial if the state believes you have had access to restricted material. But even then we know there's still a thriving black market in the Imperium.
The main threat I would say is not the information being destroyed as such, but it getting buried by false data. Discerning the truth from fiction might get really difficult, even if all the truth is still there and preserved.
An example of how little they actually know, in the ad mech codex they say the onager dune crawler is based on an vehicle given the acronym MULE which was an “insecticidal” beast of burden that used to walk the ancient Earth. If they think a mule was a giant insect we used to carry loads what they actually “know” might be very inaccurate or completely false. I’m happy to ignore anything the perpetuals say as they are the worst bit of recent fluff.
And on top of that what was known during the great crusade may well be utterly distorted by now. 10000 years is a long time and the imperium isn’t great at record keeping.
another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"
leopard wrote: well 1. some sort of global EMP thing, since I doubt most of the servers are hardened against it
or possibly just the indexing systems crashing, which would make finding things a pain.
besides who is to say much of whats known about the world today survived long enough to leave the planet?
Companies only care about what they can sell, and generally want to 'paywall' it so its not accessible, private stuff is generally free but also generally not backed up.
it may be reasonably easy in the future to put the internet in a black box with a red LED on it and give it to some middle management type on a long haul space mission (indeed several of them), but somewhere there will be an accountant asking why you are doing it and where the profit is.
stuff gets written and stuff gets lost all the time, the one sit it was on goes dark and its gone - unless someone else thought it important enough to make a copy of, and not simply link to
stuff on paper survived because to distribute it you needed to actually copy it, on line people just link and forget, then the linsk break and are never fixed.
a server without a backup goes off line, or there is a fire etc.
This is before you have stuff like the unfinished works of the sadly late Sir Terry P, crushed by steam roller as per his wishes and thus lost forever
Once it's off planet, it's much harder for a disaster to remove it. If it survives anywhere, it spreads back everywhere.
If the government privatise the entire internet (big if frankly) people will still setup their own thing separate to it, even if much of the general public aren't aware of it day to day. Dark web or what have you. People will find a way to communicate and share information regardless.
As I said above, once you get to state control on the level of the ecclesiarchy it gets tougher. Where you can be executed immediately and without trial if the state believes you have had access to restricted material. But even then we know there's still a thriving black market in the Imperium.
The main threat I would say is not the information being destroyed as such, but it getting buried by false data. Discerning the truth from fiction might get really difficult, even if all the truth is still there and preserved.
now on sifting truth from deliberate lies and even just separating fact from fiction could well be a serious issue, think the whole premise behind Galaxy Quest
In Dark Imperium Guilliman tries to build a library about the knowledge of the last 10000 years and realizes that a lot has been lost due to imperial dogma.
And that's "just" from 30K to 40K. They barely seem to know about the Beast.
Information about earth in 2K would be very unlikely. Today we only have recovered 2% of the written texts of antiquity, and we are only 2000 years away. And even though real world's christianity did a good job of purging (or simply not copying) everything they didn't like they weren't as bad as 40Ks ecclesiarchy.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: In Dark Imperium Guilliman tries to build a library about the knowledge of the last 10000 years and realizes that a lot has been lost due to imperial dogma.
And that's "just" from 30K to 40K. They barely seem to know about the Beast.
Information about earth in 2K would be very unlikely. Today we only have recovered 2% of the written texts of antiquity, and we are only 2000 years away. And even though real world's christianity did a good job of purging (or simply not copying) everything they didn't like they weren't as bad as 40Ks ecclesiarchy.
Yeah, I very much agree.
I actually think quite a lot probably survived up until the Heresy. But after that the Ecclesiarchy buried anything that didn't fit their narrative.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: In Dark Imperium Guilliman tries to build a library about the knowledge of the last 10000 years and realizes that a lot has been lost due to imperial dogma.
And that's "just" from 30K to 40K. They barely seem to know about the Beast.
Information about earth in 2K would be very unlikely. Today we only have recovered 2% of the written texts of antiquity, and we are only 2000 years away. And even though real world's christianity did a good job of purging (or simply not copying) everything they didn't like they weren't as bad as 40Ks ecclesiarchy.
Don't forget ol' Julius Caesar's contribution to that... (maybe)
Andykp wrote: An example of how little they actually know, in the ad mech codex they say the onager dune crawler is based on an vehicle given the acronym MULE which was an “insecticidal” beast of burden that used to walk the ancient Earth. If they think a mule was a giant insect we used to carry loads what they actually “know” might be very inaccurate or completely false. I’m happy to ignore anything the perpetuals say as they are the worst bit of recent fluff.
And on top of that what was known during the great crusade may well be utterly distorted by now. 10000 years is a long time and the imperium isn’t great at record keeping.
The Perpetuals are part part of the lore whether you like it or not, so we listen to what they say. And they are bad lore just because you say it? That's opinion. Good or bad lore, they are well-written.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: In Dark Imperium Guilliman tries to build a library about the knowledge of the last 10000 years and realizes that a lot has been lost due to imperial dogma.
And that's "just" from 30K to 40K. They barely seem to know about the Beast.
Information about earth in 2K would be very unlikely. Today we only have recovered 2% of the written texts of antiquity, and we are only 2000 years away. And even though real world's christianity did a good job of purging (or simply not copying) everything they didn't like they weren't as bad as 40Ks ecclesiarchy.
Yeah, I very much agree.
I actually think quite a lot probably survived up until the Heresy. But after that the Ecclesiarchy buried anything that didn't fit their narrative.
I have my doubts about that. We can barely keep track of records from 2,000 years ago and have only about two percent of records of all antiquity. Plus the Perpetuals from Old Earth (such as in Mark of Calth)) were teaching people about human history.
The Emperor knows everything about human history. I gave an example from The Last Church in Tales of Heresy.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
I'm not sure why people are expecting there to be loads of info. Even the jump from the HH to present day 40k is longer than our own current recorded history (plus on a galactic scale to boot). There's scant few pieces of info that have been corrupted by years of Chinese whispers such as the example you said and things like "Shakespire" and the toy rocket with CCCP on it.
Shakespeare didn't share his plays on the cloud though.
Modern (and future) playwrights don't have to deal with the DAOT right now. Think about how much gak we lost in our own history to the dark ages. Now multiply that on a galactic scale and the chances of there being anything truly significant drastic go down.
You ain't kidding. We lost a lot over the Dark Ages. We lost a lot when places such as the library of Alexandria burned. You can only imagine the Age of Strife. The Emperor is the only one who has complete knowledge on all of human history. And Malcador knows a lot as well. Doesn't the Emperor having a hall of historical and technological devices such as a Mars rover from the 1990s or 2000s?
And medieval Monks had to preserve ancient knowledge by copying them down with their own copies.
BrianDavion wrote: another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"
Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.
BrianDavion wrote: another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"
Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.
well in this case, the emphises is on "all three" not "recovered three of" it really hammers in what mankinds lost, not just knowledge, but knowledge OF knowledge.
BrianDavion wrote: another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"
Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.
well in this case, the emphises is on "all three" not "recovered three of" it really hammers in what mankinds lost, not just knowledge, but knowledge OF knowledge.
Hmm, I dunno. I take it to mean 'all three of the surviving plays' not that they are certain that only three ever existed.
The Perpetuals are part part of the lore whether you like it or not, so we listen to what they say. And they are bad lore just because you say it? That's opinion. Good or bad lore, they are well-written.
What is this special definition you have of "well-written" that makes your posts fact and andykp's opinion?
Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.
The Perpetuals are part part of the lore whether you like it or not, so we listen to what they say. And they are bad lore just because you say it? That's opinion. Good or bad lore, they are well-written.
What is this special definition you have of "well-written" that makes your posts fact and andykp's opinion?
Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.
As much as my dislike and ignoring of perpetuals is opinion so is your opinion that they are well written. My opinion is that they are a cheap plot tool badly written and not need in the 40k setting. I personally really like when the current folk in 40k get current day history all backwards and mixed up. If you think it’s been 40 odd thousand years, computers and tech went crazy and was killed and the world rebuilt by mental people and barbarians then history isn’t going to remain. It’s crazy they know anything.
The Perpetuals are part part of the lore whether you like it or not, so we listen to what they say. And they are bad lore just because you say it? That's opinion. Good or bad lore, they are well-written.
What is this special definition you have of "well-written" that makes your posts fact and andykp's opinion?
Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.
As much as my dislike and ignoring of perpetuals is opinion so is your opinion that they are well written. My opinion is that they are a cheap plot tool badly written and not need in the 40k setting. I personally really like when the current folk in 40k get current day history all backwards and mixed up. If you think it’s been 40 odd thousand years, computers and tech went crazy and was killed and the world rebuilt by mental people and barbarians then history isn’t going to remain. It’s crazy they know anything.
Well, yeah. Its up to someone's opinion. But I love them. They are well-written, but that does not mean they are good lore.
BrianDavion wrote: another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"
Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.
well in this case, the emphises is on "all three" not "recovered three of" it really hammers in what mankinds lost, not just knowledge, but knowledge OF knowledge.
Hmm, I dunno. I take it to mean 'all three of the surviving plays' not that they are certain that only three ever existed.
I never really thought that passage was up for interpretion myself, goes to show how easy it is for differant people to read things differant. me I saw it as "only thought he had written three plays" because 1: until you uncover something else you dunno how many survived. 2: given the whole jist of the conservatory was to recover lost knowledge and that "humanity isn't really sure what it's lost" I saw that statement as the writer telling us the reader that the answer is "a lot" I mean he could have chosen ANY screen write, but shakespear was named IMHO specificly because he's so widely studied, and that everyone knows he wrote more then "just 3 plays"
BrianDavion wrote: another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"
Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.
well in this case, the emphises is on "all three" not "recovered three of" it really hammers in what mankinds lost, not just knowledge, but knowledge OF knowledge.
Hmm, I dunno. I take it to mean 'all three of the surviving plays' not that they are certain that only three ever existed.
I never really thought that passage was up for interpretion myself, goes to show how easy it is for differant people to read things differant. me I saw it as "only thought he had written three plays" because 1: until you uncover something else you dunno how many survived. 2: given the whole jist of the conservatory was to recover lost knowledge and that "humanity isn't really sure what it's lost" I saw that statement as the writer telling us the reader that the answer is "a lot" I mean he could have chosen ANY screen write, but shakespear was named IMHO specificly because he's so widely studied, and that everyone knows he wrote more then "just 3 plays"
I'm not saying it implied they would have difinitively known he wrote more either. I'm saying the implication to me is that they only know of 3. They're clearly smart enough to know there may have been more that were now completely lost.
BrianDavion wrote: another example was a throw away line in a HH book (prosperio burns perhaps) where someone comments that "we've recovered all THREE! of shakespire's plays!"
Not bad actually, considering we may have lost a few in less than 500 years.
well in this case, the emphises is on "all three" not "recovered three of" it really hammers in what mankinds lost, not just knowledge, but knowledge OF knowledge.
Hmm, I dunno. I take it to mean 'all three of the surviving plays' not that they are certain that only three ever existed.
I never really thought that passage was up for interpretion myself, goes to show how easy it is for differant people to read things differant. me I saw it as "only thought he had written three plays" because 1: until you uncover something else you dunno how many survived. 2: given the whole jist of the conservatory was to recover lost knowledge and that "humanity isn't really sure what it's lost" I saw that statement as the writer telling us the reader that the answer is "a lot" I mean he could have chosen ANY screen write, but shakespear was named IMHO specificly because he's so widely studied, and that everyone knows he wrote more then "just 3 plays"
I'm not saying it implied they would have difinitively known he wrote more either. I'm saying the implication to me is that they only know of 3. They're clearly smart enough to know there may have been more that were now completely lost.
Don’t think smart is a term to applied to the imperial powers that be. Ignorance is power in the 40k, it’s probably heresey to suggest there are plays out there they haven’t recovered. That suggest the emperor and his servants are fallible.
Knowledge of Old Earth seems to come up every now and then as a sort of parody to highlight the ignorance of people in the 40k universe. The 3 Shakespeare plays comment reads like that sort of thing to me, and there are often references to our recent history that are woefully misinformed. It's something that's very difficult for us to understand, I think. 30,000 years is a timeframe the human brain is not programmed to be able to properly comprehend.
Preserving information even from the beginning of the digital age to now is already proving to be problematic, precisely because it's digital in nature and therefore requires another device to make the data readable. Many military and government organisations around the globe still use outdated technology because so much of their infrastructure was based around it and replacing it all would be very expensive. Once all those bits of equipment from the 60s and 70s start failing that data could be lost forever. Now multiply that timescale by a few thousand and imagine how difficult it could be to access all of the vast quantities of digital data we have such easy access to today in 30,000 years' time.
Edit: also, isn't this a 40k Background discussion?
Slipspace wrote: Knowledge of Old Earth seems to come up every now and then as a sort of parody to highlight the ignorance of people in the 40k universe. The 3 Shakespeare plays comment reads like that sort of thing to me, and there are often references to our recent history that are woefully misinformed. It's something that's very difficult for us to understand, I think. 30,000 years is a timeframe the human brain is not programmed to be able to properly comprehend.
Preserving information even from the beginning of the digital age to now is already proving to be problematic, precisely because it's digital in nature and therefore requires another device to make the data readable. Many military and government organisations around the globe still use outdated technology because so much of their infrastructure was based around it and replacing it all would be very expensive. Once all those bits of equipment from the 60s and 70s start failing that data could be lost forever. Now multiply that timescale by a few thousand and imagine how difficult it could be to access all of the vast quantities of digital data we have such easy access to today in 30,000 years' time.
Edit: also, isn't this a 40k Background discussion?
Not to mention that if something like the STC was lost, and considering the sheer damage inflicted to the human colonies from the Age of Strife, it's not surprising that any information would be fragmentary and heavily warped due to the passage of time (there's a reason why there's so many variants of the Bible in the modern age for that reason).
And yeah, practically every thread from Onething is a background thread, he doesn't seem to bother reading the forum rules for where to post things. I guess he lives up to his namesake.
Slipspace wrote: Knowledge of Old Earth seems to come up every now and then as a sort of parody to highlight the ignorance of people in the 40k universe. The 3 Shakespeare plays comment reads like that sort of thing to me, and there are often references to our recent history that are woefully misinformed. It's something that's very difficult for us to understand, I think. 30,000 years is a timeframe the human brain is not programmed to be able to properly comprehend.
Preserving information even from the beginning of the digital age to now is already proving to be problematic, precisely because it's digital in nature and therefore requires another device to make the data readable. Many military and government organisations around the globe still use outdated technology because so much of their infrastructure was based around it and replacing it all would be very expensive. Once all those bits of equipment from the 60s and 70s start failing that data could be lost forever. Now multiply that timescale by a few thousand and imagine how difficult it could be to access all of the vast quantities of digital data we have such easy access to today in 30,000 years' time.
Edit: also, isn't this a 40k Background discussion?
Not to mention that if something like the STC was lost, and considering the sheer damage inflicted to the human colonies from the Age of Strife, it's not surprising that any information would be fragmentary and heavily warped due to the passage of time (there's a reason why there's so many variants of the Bible in the modern age for that reason).
And yeah, practically every thread from Onething is a background thread, he doesn't seem to bother reading the forum rules for where to post things. I guess he lives up to his namesake.
Sorry about that. I am still getting used to this. And I did read the rules, but not all of them.
The Perpetuals are part part of the lore whether you like it or not, so we listen to what they say. And they are bad lore just because you say it? That's opinion. Good or bad lore, they are well-written.
What is this special definition you have of "well-written" that makes your posts fact and andykp's opinion?
Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.
Not really, they lived through those events.
And his new name is Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson. And he did not do that.
.
Why are you saying like Big E lived through those events as a fact? How do we know this? Because the Emperor said so? Characters can lie.
I'm personally of the theory the Emperor is a fraud, a high ranking techno-barbarian from Terra who used his influence/psychic powers/tech to claim everything that he did and take over. Ask yourself this- where was he in the old night? Where was he when the Men of Iron came? Strange that during these dark times of humanity the Emperor did not choose to reveal himself- Because he simply did not exist in those time periods.
We don't really have a grasp of our own history. Nobody knows the true figure of how many died at places like Stalingrad; the truth was obscured (if it was ever available) and has now probably been lost. The battles at Rzhev are massively significant to the outcome of WWII, yet are largely unheard of outside of Germany and the former CCCP.
These are huge events that happened less than a hundred years ago that we largely have already forgotten, so to expect people in 30k years to give a rat's seems optimistic.
Grimtuff wrote: Why are you saying like Big E lived through those events as a fact? How do we know this? Because the Emperor said so? Characters can lie.
I'm personally of the theory the Emperor is a fraud, a high ranking techno-barbarian from Terra who used his influence/psychic powers/tech to claim everything that he did and take over. Ask yourself this- where was he in the old night? Where was he when the Men of Iron came? Strange that during these dark times of humanity the Emperor did not choose to reveal himself- Because he simply did not exist in those time periods.
If you read the shaman origin from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, it says he was not there during the Age of Strife because he did not see humanity needed him yet.
Besides, just because the Perpetuals lived through all of human history, we don'[t know how well they remember any of it. Most thinsg they do remember - even if they have magical perfect recollection - will only be second-hand at best, because they weren't present at every event. Ollanius Pius (or whatever he's called this week) may well have perfect recollection of what he once read on Wikipedia, but that's certainly not always accurate.
Not really, they lived through those events.
And his new name is Oll Persson. Perpetual Oll Persson. And he did not do that.
.
No, they didn't live through every historical event; they were alive at the time, which is not the same thing. I've been alive through the Falklands War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the last two wars in Iraq, 9/11 and any number of historical events, but I didn't live through them; I just saw them on the news. My recollection of them is second- or third-hand at best. The same is true of Ollanius Pius. Less true of the Emperor because he's spent most of his existence being an eminence gris, but even so, he was only in one place at a time.
Two quick points: time travel exists in the 40k universe, so someone could just go back and check; and the Emperor left Earth at several points - going to Mars and Molech, for example.
beast_gts wrote: Two quick points: time travel exists in the 40k universe, so someone could just go back and check; and the Emperor left Earth at several points - going to Mars and Molech, for example.
I doubt the Ordo Chronos would stand for that if they got wind. Mind you nobody knows if they exist in the 40K timeline any longer.
No, they didn't live through every historical event; they were alive at the time, which is not the same thing. I've been alive through the Falklands War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the last two wars in Iraq, 9/11 and any number of historical events, but I didn't live through them; I just saw them on the news. My recollection of them is second- or third-hand at best. The same is true of Ollanius Pius. Less true of the Emperor because he's spent most of his existence being an eminence gris, but even so, he was only in one place at a time.
Not to mention that 10000 years is a long time to keep track of those pesky memories... Hell, my memories of High School are already a little fuzzy on a lot of the less important details, and that was only 25 years ago. If I'm still alive in a thousand years, I very much doubt I would remember it at all.
No, they didn't live through every historical event; they were alive at the time, which is not the same thing. I've been alive through the Falklands War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the last two wars in Iraq, 9/11 and any number of historical events, but I didn't live through them; I just saw them on the news. My recollection of them is second- or third-hand at best. The same is true of Ollanius Pius. Less true of the Emperor because he's spent most of his existence being an eminence gris, but even so, he was only in one place at a time.
Not to mention that 10000 years is a long time to keep track of those pesky memories... Hell, my memories of High School are already a little fuzzy on a lot of the less important details, and that was only 25 years ago. If I'm still alive in a thousand years, I very much doubt I would remember it at all.
Brains can only hold so much information and it eventually degrades as new information replaces the old, a perpetual would literally have a different personality after a long period, the old version of themselves would simply cease to exist with time.
Now if the perpetual thing applies to all health and not just injuries etc. Then thier brains would never decay, they would have perfect memories, but I don’t see how that would stop the natural function of the memory centres replacing old information with new...
Onething123456 wrote: Is there any legit knowledgeable person here who has read how much the Imperium knows about Old Earth? As far as I know, they know very little. We can barely keep track of records from 2,000 years ago in our world. SO the Imperium would have it harder, especially since most were destroyed in the Age of Strife.
The Emperor knows everything about human history, as he has displayed.
The Last Church said:
"Revelation snapped his fingers. 'That's exactly my point. You pick and choose which bits of your book to take literally and which to read as symbolic, and that choosing is a matter of personal decision, not divinity. Trust me, in ages past, a frightening number of people took their holy books absolutely literally, causing untold misery and death because they truly believed the words they read. The history of religion is a horror story, Uriah, and if you doubt it, just look at what humanity has done in the name of their gods over the millennia. Thousands of years ago, a bloody theocracy that venerated a feathered-serpent god rose in the Mayan jungles. To appease this vile god, its priests drowned maidens in sacred wells and cut out the hearts of children. They believed this serpent god had an earthly counterpart and the temple builders drove the first pile through a maiden's body to pacify this non-existent creature.'Uriah turned to Revelation in horror and said, 'You can't seriously compare my religion to such heathen barbarism?''Can't I?' countered Revelation. 'In the name of your religion, a holy man launched a war with the battle cry of "Deus Vult", which means "god wills it" in one of the ancient tongues of Old Earth. His warriors were charged with destroying enemies in a far-off kingdom, but first they fell upon those in their own lands who opposed the war. Thousands were dragged from their homes and hacked to death or burned alive. Then, satisfied their homeland was secure, the zealous legions plundered their way thousands of miles to the holy city they were to liberate. Upon reaching it, they killed every inhabitant to "purify" the symbolic city of taint. I remember one of their leaders saying that he rode in blood up to the knees and even to his horse's bridle, by the just and marvellous judgement of god.''That is ancient history,' said Uriah. 'You cannot vouchsafe the truth of events so lost in the mists of time.''If it were one event, I might agree with you,' replied Revelation, 'but just a hundred or so years later, another holy man declared war on a sect of his own church. His warriors laid siege to the sect's stronghold in ancient Franc, and when the city fell his generals asked their leader how they might tell the faithful from the traitor among the captives. This man, who followed your god, ordered the warriors to "Kill them all. God will know His own". Nearly twenty thousand men, women and children were slaughtered. Worst of all, the hunt for any that had escaped the siege led to the establishment of an organisation known as the Inquisition, a dreadful, monstrous plague of hysteria that gave its agents free rein to stretch, burn, pierce and break their victims on fiendish pain machines to force them to confess to disbelief and identify fellow transgressors. Later, with most of their enemies hunted down and killed, the Inquisition shifted its focus to wychcraft, and priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they engaged in unnatural acts with daemons. They were then burned or hanged for their confessions and this hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations, a madness that saw whole towns exterminated and over a hundred thousand dead.'"
I read Mark of Calth. And it looks like even people during the Great Crusade did not know about Old Earth. Perpetual Oll Persson tells Katt and the other people with him about his time on Old Earth, and they were none the wiser about human history before that.
And its a fact the Emperor was born in Anatolia, as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader with shows (if you still think it is accurate to current lore http://imgur.com/dImnK6j
The Imperium knows probably less about Old Earth than we know of the Ancient Egyptians. From my reading all they really know are authors and artists here and there, they have never expressed how the world was during old earth even in a basic sense. So very little.
beast_gts wrote: Two quick points: time travel exists in the 40k universe, so someone could just go back and check; and the Emperor left Earth at several points - going to Mars and Molech, for example.
I doubt the Ordo Chronos would stand for that if they got wind. Mind you nobody knows if they exist in the 40K timeline any longer.
They're mentioned in the Dark Imperium novel, but they're in dispute with Guilliman over the Imperial Calendar rather than dealing with time travel.
I don't recall any time travel that was voluntary and controlled in 40k lore, unless the Necrons have a secret Tardis or something in a fluff blup. Any time travel seemed to be a warp accident.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I don't recall any time travel that was voluntary and controlled in 40k lore, unless the Necrons have a secret Tardis or something in a fluff blup. Any time travel seemed to be a warp accident.
Necrons can, Ollanius Pius could (with an Athame), the Ordo Chronos might have been able to, and one of the original Rogue Trader scenarios was to hunt down Dr. Who.
Ask yourself: how much do you know about the Hittites, or the Sumerians, or any of the civilizations of the bronze age? Probably nothing. Maybe a bit about Egypt, but that's about it.
The thing is, all of those civilizations were from before the Bronze Dark Age. After that, there was the classical era, than another dark age, the medieval period, and the modern period.
Western thought sees linear history (compared to the more cyclical nature of some eastern thought), and so we focus on those aspects of history which relate to us. 30k occurs after at least two more dark ages, with 40k arguably the nadir of another dark age. Every dark age eliminates a fraction of what we know about the prior civilizations, and that adds up.
Grimtuff wrote: Why are you saying like Big E lived through those events as a fact? How do we know this? Because the Emperor said so? Characters can lie.
I'm personally of the theory the Emperor is a fraud, a high ranking techno-barbarian from Terra who used his influence/psychic powers/tech to claim everything that he did and take over. Ask yourself this- where was he in the old night? Where was he when the Men of Iron came? Strange that during these dark times of humanity the Emperor did not choose to reveal himself- Because he simply did not exist in those time periods.
But in all seriousness, why would he lie? Very few know or care about Old Earth.
He hears Him, the day they met, recognising a kindred being. ‘The likes of us,’ He says to Oll, ‘the likes of us will leave our print on things down the ages. That is why we were made the way we were. The courses of our lives will not go unmarked.’
‘Mine will,’ Oll assures Him. ‘I have no stomach for the games you want to play with the world. I just want an ordinary life.’
‘My dear friend, you’ll have as many of those as you want.’ It was summer, a meadow beyond the walls of Nineveh. He had never met another Perpetual before. He would never meet another like Him.
And this quote above, along with other things in the Horus Heresy series, shows the Emperor was around then. Are you saying all the Perpetuals are fake? Surely you are not saying all the Perpetuals are fake?
Formosa wrote: [
Brains can only hold so much information and it eventually degrades as new information replaces the old, a perpetual would literally have a different personality after a long period, the old version of themselves would simply cease to exist with time.
Now if the perpetual thing applies to all health and not just injuries etc. Then thier brains would never decay, they would have perfect memories, but I don’t see how that would stop the natural function of the memory centres replacing old information with new...
I think bio-mechanics probably doesnt work the same way with a perpetual at all, memory included. I know people will hate the following pinion, but IMO, warp shenanigans might well play a part.
Onething123456 wrote: Is there any legit knowledgeable person here who has read how much the Imperium knows about Old Earth? As far as I know, they know very little. We can barely keep track of records from 2,000 years ago in our world. SO the Imperium would have it harder, especially since most were destroyed in the Age of Strife.
The Emperor knows everything about human history, as he has displayed.
The Last Church said:
"Revelation snapped his fingers. 'That's exactly my point. You pick and choose which bits of your book to take literally and which to read as symbolic, and that choosing is a matter of personal decision, not divinity. Trust me, in ages past, a frightening number of people took their holy books absolutely literally, causing untold misery and death because they truly believed the words they read. The history of religion is a horror story, Uriah, and if you doubt it, just look at what humanity has done in the name of their gods over the millennia. Thousands of years ago, a bloody theocracy that venerated a feathered-serpent god rose in the Mayan jungles. To appease this vile god, its priests drowned maidens in sacred wells and cut out the hearts of children. They believed this serpent god had an earthly counterpart and the temple builders drove the first pile through a maiden's body to pacify this non-existent creature.'Uriah turned to Revelation in horror and said, 'You can't seriously compare my religion to such heathen barbarism?''Can't I?' countered Revelation. 'In the name of your religion, a holy man launched a war with the battle cry of "Deus Vult", which means "god wills it" in one of the ancient tongues of Old Earth. His warriors were charged with destroying enemies in a far-off kingdom, but first they fell upon those in their own lands who opposed the war. Thousands were dragged from their homes and hacked to death or burned alive. Then, satisfied their homeland was secure, the zealous legions plundered their way thousands of miles to the holy city they were to liberate. Upon reaching it, they killed every inhabitant to "purify" the symbolic city of taint. I remember one of their leaders saying that he rode in blood up to the knees and even to his horse's bridle, by the just and marvellous judgement of god.''That is ancient history,' said Uriah. 'You cannot vouchsafe the truth of events so lost in the mists of time.''If it were one event, I might agree with you,' replied Revelation, 'but just a hundred or so years later, another holy man declared war on a sect of his own church. His warriors laid siege to the sect's stronghold in ancient Franc, and when the city fell his generals asked their leader how they might tell the faithful from the traitor among the captives. This man, who followed your god, ordered the warriors to "Kill them all. God will know His own". Nearly twenty thousand men, women and children were slaughtered. Worst of all, the hunt for any that had escaped the siege led to the establishment of an organisation known as the Inquisition, a dreadful, monstrous plague of hysteria that gave its agents free rein to stretch, burn, pierce and break their victims on fiendish pain machines to force them to confess to disbelief and identify fellow transgressors. Later, with most of their enemies hunted down and killed, the Inquisition shifted its focus to wychcraft, and priests tortured untold thousands of women into confessing that they engaged in unnatural acts with daemons. They were then burned or hanged for their confessions and this hysteria raged for three centuries in a dozen nations, a madness that saw whole towns exterminated and over a hundred thousand dead.'"
I read Mark of Calth. And it looks like even people during the Great Crusade did not know about Old Earth. Perpetual Oll Persson tells Katt and the other people with him about his time on Old Earth, and they were none the wiser about human history before that.
And its a fact the Emperor was born in Anatolia, as the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader with shows (if you still think it is accurate to current lore http://imgur.com/dImnK6j
The Imperium knows probably less about Old Earth than we know of the Ancient Sumerians. From my reading all they really know are authors and artists here and there, they have never expressed how the world was during old earth even in a basic sense. So very little.
And Mark of Calth basically says people during the Great Crusade knew little if anything. And I fixed your post from Egypt to Sumeria. Hell, even if they did learn, they would not care. Mark of Calth says no one would care what Perpetual Oll Persson told Katt about Old Earth.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I don't recall any time travel that was voluntary and controlled in 40k lore, unless the Necrons have a secret Tardis or something in a fluff blup. Any time travel seemed to be a warp accident.
Problem with time travel is that you have to go into the warp and to do that you will end up in far flung places, so if you went back in time, there would be no astronomicum, so they'd be lightyears away from earth and you only have one navigator. Very unlikely they'd reach back to earth, plus they don't know what warp space was like back then, there could be warpstorms the like of the age of strife back during the current millenniums.
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Polonius wrote: Ask yourself: how much do you know about the Hittites, or the Sumerians, or any of the civilizations of the bronze age? Probably nothing. Maybe a bit about Egypt, but that's about it.
The thing is, all of those civilizations were from before the Bronze Dark Age. After that, there was the classical era, than another dark age, the medieval period, and the modern period.
Western thought sees linear history (compared to the more cyclical nature of some eastern thought), and so we focus on those aspects of history which relate to us. 30k occurs after at least two more dark ages, with 40k arguably the nadir of another dark age. Every dark age eliminates a fraction of what we know about the prior civilizations, and that adds up.
Plus there is a constant flux in global events, global warming, glacial ice ages etc. Our history could have been wiped out at a time and would have to be re-built. This could happen multiple times before the DAOT.
Andykp wrote: Memory is fallible as soon as it’s formed. It isn’t a direct record of what has happened. It’s your subconscious interpretation of it. Xx
Andykp wrote: Memory is fallible as soon as it’s formed. It isn’t a direct record of what has happened. It’s your subconscious interpretation of it. Xx
Not in all cases, there are people in the world with total recall when it comes to memory.
Very few people have total recall and in most cases it’s in a specific type of memory such as written text and things. And quite often those people are deficient in other psychological ways like empathy and understanding, some even argue that is a place on the autistic spectrum. I for one don’t know enough about it but when I was university 20 years ago studying anatomy the mechanics of how memories are formed was beginning to seen but was a long way from being understood. The different types and the different mechanisms. Trying to say a made up type of immortal humans memory would function this way or that is a massive leap of logic.
Onthing, memories are more often inaccurate than they are right. That is why eye witness statements and first person recollections of events aren’t considered too highly evidentiary. So many factors contribute to a memory that they are very very unreliable.
Andykp wrote: Memory is fallible as soon as it’s formed. It isn’t a direct record of what has happened. It’s your subconscious interpretation of it. Xx
And memory is almost always right.
No, it's not. Memories can be manipulated very easily. Ever heard of Gaslighting?
And why would Perpetual Oll Persson's memories be flawed? He went back in time to Verdun and saw a journal he wrote. And eyewitness testimony is contradictory because oftentimes people see different things, and see different people for serial killer suspect (though I'm not an expert)s. And Gaslighting is manipulating memories. And why would the Emperor lie? Very few people know or even care about Old Earth. I just showed a quote and link for Perpetual Oll Persson from Mark of Calth.
Andykp wrote: Memory is fallible as soon as it’s formed. It isn’t a direct record of what has happened. It’s your subconscious interpretation of it. Xx
Bro, this is a major fallacy I run into all the time as an attorney. Peoples memories are no always right, I'd give it closer to a 50/50 for something unless it is very important or recorded in another way which helps reinforce memories. The fact that people put so much stock into peoples memories when the average person probably can't remember what they ate on monday is something that I've found funny/frustrating depending on context.
Because he's incredibly old, and because memory is subject to personal bias, lapses in observation, confusion with other memories, outside manipulation or plain and simply forgetting bits, all of which become an increasingly larger problem the older the memory is.
Because he's incredibly old, and because memory is subject to personal bias, lapses in observation, confusion with other memories, outside manipulation or plain and simply forgetting bits, all of which become an increasingly larger problem the older the memory is.
Unfortunately for you, Mark of Calth shows him traveling back in time to places such as Verdun and seeing things like a journal he wrote at Verdun.
Andykp wrote: Very few people have total recall and in most cases it’s in a specific type of memory such as written text and things. And quite often those people are deficient in other psychological ways like empathy and understanding, some even argue that is a place on the autistic spectrum. I for one don’t know enough about it but when I was university 20 years ago studying anatomy the mechanics of how memories are formed was beginning to seen but was a long way from being understood. The different types and the different mechanisms. Trying to say a made up type of immortal humans memory would function this way or that is a massive leap of logic.
Onthing, memories are more often inaccurate than they are right. That is why eye witness statements and first person recollections of events aren’t considered too highly evidentiary. So many factors contribute to a memory that they are very very unreliable.
Which is why I said 'not in all cases' We manage to create memory banks here in this century with the internet, so memory has little to do with it. If we don't have access to technology then memory is an issue. If something is done and not seen we all have the ability to say 'that can't be trusted.' Did Donald Trump win the election, yeah we can prove that to the point of incontrovertible fact.
.
So? You know what a journal is? It's a collection of memories, written down. As such, it's still subject to all of the problems I listed, and adds in a random factor based on just how skilled a writer the creator of the journal may be, and the potential misinterpretations that come from reading it later.
Memory is far from reliable, even when it is written down.
At least a few times a year, I'll be with friends, and somebody will crack a familiar sounding joke. I'll ask who originally said that, and it turns out to be me.
I don't think I have an unusually bad memory, but I there is a ton of stuff I can't recall from my own personal history.
We have memory problems no, so history is what we make of it in spite of that, the Imperium is not exempt from those problems, I don't know why we are arguing about memory.
And you know he wrote a journal at Verdun as he travelled back in time to Verdun? And FYI, he wrote that journal at Verdun about things happening in the war. Are you saying he never sailed with Jason and the Argonauts, never fought at Verdun, never fought at 73 Easting, and so on?
On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.
Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,
Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.
Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.
Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?
One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?
Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.
Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,
Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.
Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.
Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?
One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?
Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?
What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.
Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,
Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.
Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.
Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?
One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?
Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?
What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.
Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,
Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.
Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.
Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?
One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?
Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?
What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.
Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,
Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.
Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.
Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?
One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?
Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?
What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.
Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,
Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.
Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.
Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?
One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?
Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?
What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: On the original premise, I’d say holding information worth a damn is nigh on impossible.
Consider that even today, based on limited info, there’s always dissent and discussion in the history community. Not only is history written by the victor, but there are seemingly bizarre theories everywhere,
Look at this way. When it comes to Roman history, there are sources that are trusted over others. Yet we know none really show the whole truth.
Into the 21st century? That history channel goon that’s all ‘ALIENS’.
Imagine that only two pieces of evidence survive. One is a history student’s dissertation. The other is said History Channel Goon. With all other sources stripped out, where do you draw the line? Which do you rely upon?
One is a dissertation by a source never heard of again. The other is from an internationally shown TV show. Called ‘The History Channel’. Which would you rely on from a position of pure ignorance?
Worse. Consider the rise of the Far Right across the western world. What if their take on Hitler because canonical? How is anyone to know he was actually an egotist that went utterly batpoop insane, made multiple errors and wound up flattened, taking his own life out of cowardice? How do you interpret that history from an unavoidably limited view?
What does the Imperium know about Old Earth? The Perpetuals seem to show that even the Crusade Imperium did not know much. Like in Mark of Calth when Perpetual Oll Persson tells the people with him about Old Earth, and they were none the wiser before that.
Andykp wrote: So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.
And perpetuals are silly.
You've said this before. They are not silly in any way shape or form. They are great lore, and give an incite on the fact that they Emperor may be more human than previously thought. An immortal human silly, in the 40k universe, I've heard everything now. Human psykers and pariahs and navigators; perfectly reasonable. Immortal humans 'pure fantasy' lol. You probably collect Eldar and are upset that perpetuals are older than the Eldar.
Andykp wrote: So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.
And perpetuals are silly.
You've said this before. They are not silly in any way shape or form. They are great lore, and give an incite on the fact that they Emperor may be more human than previously thought. An immortal human silly, in the 40k universe, I've heard everything now. Human psykers and pariahs and navigators; perfectly reasonable. Immortal humans 'pure fantasy' lol. You probably collect Eldar and are upset that perpetuals are older than the Eldar.
Why would the Perpetuals be anymore silly than the Sensei from 1st Edition Rogue Trader?
Andykp wrote: So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.
And perpetuals are silly.
You've said this before. They are not silly in any way shape or form. They are great lore, and give an incite on the fact that they Emperor may be more human than previously thought. An immortal human silly, in the 40k universe, I've heard everything now. Human psykers and pariahs and navigators; perfectly reasonable. Immortal humans 'pure fantasy' lol. You probably collect Eldar and are upset that perpetuals are older than the Eldar.
Why would the Perpetuals be anymore silly than the Sensei from 1st Edition Rogue Trader?
They are still cannon. But exactly, its not silly at all.
Andykp wrote: So, in summary we all agree they nothing of “old earth” in 40k.
And perpetuals are silly.
You've said this before. They are not silly in any way shape or form. They are great lore, and give an incite on the fact that they Emperor may be more human than previously thought. An immortal human silly, in the 40k universe, I've heard everything now. Human psykers and pariahs and navigators; perfectly reasonable. Immortal humans 'pure fantasy' lol. You probably collect Eldar and are upset that perpetuals are older than the Eldar.
Why would the Perpetuals be anymore silly than the Sensei from 1st Edition Rogue Trader?
They are still cannon. But exactly, its not silly at all.
No more silly than the Sensei from 1st Edition Rogue Trader as champions of the Star Child making Warhammer Brighthammer.
Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They were champions of the Star Child in 1st Edition Rogue Trader making Warhammer Brighthammer.
Andykp wrote: Realm of chaos lost and damned. They were his descendants, Champions of the starchild. Fighting the evil Sir nose.
Write it correctly. Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned , in caps with a colon and so on. I know I don't always write correctly, but I make sure to do so with books.
Andykp wrote: Realm of chaos lost and damned. They were his descendants, Champions of the starchild. Fighting the evil Sir nose.
Write it correctly. Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned , in caps with a colon and so on. I know I don't always write correctly, but I make sure to do so with books.
I’m ok thanks. Realm of chaos lost and the damned will do me fine. No need for eBay links either. I’ve still got all my old Warhammer 40000:Rogue Trader books.
(Tried it the and it’s a no from me. I’ll books names how ever I like still).
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.
Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.
Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.
Couldn't remember the champions bit. I thought it had been retconned into a theory, as everyone has said so. Turns out nope as there is no lore written on it since Inquisition war..
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.
Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.
Couldn't remember the champions bit. I thought it had been retconned into a theory, as everyone has said so. Turns out nope as there is no lore written on it since Inquisition war..
Read the starting page of 185 in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. There is Table Top for them as champions of the Star Child.
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.
Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.
Couldn't remember the champions bit. I thought it had been retconned into a theory, as everyone has said so. Turns out nope as there is no lore written on it since Inquisition war..
Read the starting page of 185 in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. There is Table Top for them as champions of the Star Child.
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.
Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.
Couldn't remember the champions bit. I thought it had been retconned into a theory, as everyone has said so. Turns out nope as there is no lore written on it since Inquisition war..
Read the starting page of 185 in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned. There is Table Top for them as champions of the Star Child.
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.
Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.
Since we're being pedantic, Rogue Trader says absolutely nothing about Sensei, the Star Child or Chaos. That all comes from the RoC books.
It would probably be better if people referred to "the Rogue Trader era" to mean "fluff from before 2nd edition". As you point out, "Rogue Trader" makes it sound like you're referring to that specific publication rather than the entire edition.
The point remains that the perpetuals are just the sensei from the RT era, plus living saints from 2nd edition onwards, sort of cooked up together into a single unified concept. If you hate the perpetuals but liked the sensei, you probably need to take off your nostalgia glasses. They're near as dammit the same thing.
Duskweaver wrote: It would probably be better if people referred to "the Rogue Trader era" to mean "fluff from before 2nd edition". As you point out, "Rogue Trader" makes it sound like you're referring to that specific publication rather than the entire edition.
The point remains that the perpetuals are just the sensei from the RT era, plus living saints from 2nd edition onwards, sort of cooked up together into a single unified concept. If you hate the perpetuals but liked the sensei, you probably need to take off your nostalgia glasses. They're near as dammit the same thing.
The difference is the Sensei were a fluff blurb that didn't really impact the setting and was sorta reated as a theory or what if. The perpetuals have been set up as being a big part of the Horus Heresy and are fairly active in the story line. The fact that they are linked to the sillyness that was the Cabal, hijacking an existing character and radically changing his backstory is what puts a lot of bad taste in peoples mouths.
Andykp wrote: Del. That’s like.. your opinion man. I just don’t think they were needed at all. The setting managed perfectly well without them and they are a lazy plot tool only in HH books.
The sensei make sense.I. The emperor put it about a bit and had kids. They are the descendants. I’m ok with that.
They aren't descendants, that's only the star child 'theory', how on earth can you say they are silly if you knew about the sensei. I could understand you say you don't like them, but silly suggests that there possible existence makes them silly.
Some of them were. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader said some of them were descendants and champions of the Star Child.
Since we're being pedantic, Rogue Trader says absolutely nothing about Sensei, the Star Child or Chaos. That all comes from the RoC books.
Yes. I'm not talking about Rick Priestley's book Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader book from 1987, I am talking about the lore itself from 1st Edition Rogue Trader. You know, the Edition? I mean 1st Edition Rogue Trader, not the book.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrookM wrote: As asked before, use spoiler tags when quoting massive multi-quotes and only replying with a singly line or word.
Its easier to get a response this way, but I'll try.
Duskweaver wrote: It would probably be better if people referred to "the Rogue Trader era" to mean "fluff from before 2nd edition". As you point out, "Rogue Trader" makes it sound like you're referring to that specific publication rather than the entire edition.
The point remains that the perpetuals are just the sensei from the RT era, plus living saints from 2nd edition onwards, sort of cooked up together into a single unified concept. If you hate the perpetuals but liked the sensei, you probably need to take off your nostalgia glasses. They're near as dammit the same thing.
The difference is the Sensei were a fluff blurb that didn't really impact the setting and was sorta reated as a theory or what if. The perpetuals have been set up as being a big part of the Horus Heresy and are fairly active in the story line. The fact that they are linked to the sillyness that was the Cabal, hijacking an existing character and radically changing his backstory is what puts a lot of bad taste in peoples mouths.
by :hijacking an existing character" you mean "detailing a character with more then a sentence"
It was better before in my opinion because it was a simple story, but one that really sums up how brave the IG really are. He wasn't anyone special, he hasn't existed since ancient Greece, he didn't have some grand destiny or special powers. He was a normal guy caught in between the God of Order and Chaos's avatar at the height of his power.
Did he run, break down or fail in his duty. No, he did the best he could and got obliterated for his trouble. He held strong, guarding humanity to his last breath. He had no chance, wasn't special and still managed to give the Emperor time to finally kill Horus. The fact that the most humans of humans saved the Emperor is a simple but effective story that connects the Emperor to humanity and showed that in a setting with literal gods, one human can make a difference.
HoundsofDemos wrote: It was better before in my opinion because it was a simple story, but one that really sums up how brave the IG really are. He wasn't anyone special, he hasn't existed since ancient Greece, he didn't have some grand destiny or special powers. He was a normal guy caught in between the God of Order and Chaos's avatar at the height of his power.
Did he run, break down or fail in his duty. No, he did the best he could and got obliterated for his trouble. He held strong, guarding humanity to his last breath. He had no chance, wasn't special and still managed to give the Emperor time to finally kill Horus. The fact that the most humans of humans saved the Emperor is a simple but effective story that connects the Emperor to humanity and showed that in a setting with literal gods, one human can make a difference.
HoundsofDemos wrote: It was better before in my opinion because it was a simple story, but one that really sums up how brave the IG really are. He wasn't anyone special, he hasn't existed since ancient Greece, he didn't have some grand destiny or special powers. He was a normal guy caught in between the God of Order and Chaos's avatar at the height of his power.
Did he run, break down or fail in his duty. No, he did the best he could and got obliterated for his trouble. He held strong, guarding humanity to his last breath. He had no chance, wasn't special and still managed to give the Emperor time to finally kill Horus. The fact that the most humans of humans saved the Emperor is a simple but effective story that connects the Emperor to humanity and showed that in a setting with literal gods, one human can make a difference.
Exactly! That's why it's important that he remains a regular Guardsman, as that's the whole point behind him being there. The symbolism is completely lost when it turns out he's some super-rare, special Perpetual who's been around for millennia and met the Emperor and been present at all these important events in history.
I think handling of Ollanius is a great allegory to the direction BL has taken the fluff (and it has now bled to 40K proper too.) Only superhuman matter; to have any agency, any impact, to be a protagonist of a story, you need to be a superhuman, a nigh immortal demigod preferably. In the Imperium of Man, in this story of humanity, the humans do not matter anymore.
I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
Crimson wrote: Absolutely!
I think handling of Ollanius is a great allegory to the direction BL has taken the fluff (and it has now bled to 40K proper too.) Only superhuman matter; to have any agency, any impact, to be a protagonist of a story, you need to be a superhuman, a nigh immortal demigod preferably. In the Imperium of Man, in this story of humanity, the humans do not matter anymore.
Isn't that common direction pop-media returned to in past decade or so from 'litle man rules' ? GW just 'follows collective unconscious' - i.e. milks money from it.
And society's obsession with delusion of 'bein' special' and ' 'ceptional' is downright frightening - let's paraphrase: "There's no 'I' in 'We', there's no 'We' in 'I'".
(That's why i dislike 'super' comicses - well, maybe 'cept pretty mental 'Boys' and 'Watchmen' - in general and 'X-men' with their disdain and hatred for common people with extra passion). WH40M at least have IG, AM and aliens - best books are about them.
Back to thread's roots.
Outside of scholars and lineage-obsessed aristos of Terran origins- who in Imperium NEEDS to know pre-Imperial history 'cept few pretty generalized concepts like 'Age of Terra', 'DAoT', 'Long Night' and 'Butlerian Jikhad'..er, 'Cybernetic Revolt'?
Common imperial subjects learn strictly on 'need to know' basis, often with direct knowledge implantation for more complex things. Imperial Cult credoes are 'need to know' for everybody, rest is not.
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
Well, there swatting a fly and there's smugly and matter-of-factly tearing wings and legs off then crushing it.
E was psi-blinded by Chaos and left dead reckoning. He estimate and guess but not ''see' until that moment and up until that moment is not immune to self-delusions and denial 'i can fix it when i have a time'.So that part is at least plausible. 'Last straw'.
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
\
That to me is the entire point of the story. Yea it's kinda nonsense, a random human managed to buy the Emperor time, after Sanguinius was dead and the Emperor was on his own and in bad shape. Then Horus gets distracted for a split second, and the Emperor final flashes him out of existence. It's probably propaganda and I don't expect the HH series to play it straight. But for your rank and file guardsmen, what better tale than one human made a difference when God was losing to his traitor son.
Maybe Horus hesitated, the last loyal fragment of his soul. Maybe the Emperor didn't need him to and coldly tried to kill him and still ended up bad enough that he needed Dorn to get him back to Terra. Maybe the Big E held back cause he wanted his favorite kid back.
No matter how it went down, one human made a difference, and saved the IOM.
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
\
That to me is the entire point of the story. Yea it's kinda nonsense, a random human managed to buy the Emperor time, after Sanguinius was dead and the Emperor was on his own and in bad shape. Then Horus gets distracted for a split second, and the Emperor final flashes him out of existence. It's probably propaganda and I don't expect the HH series to play it straight. But for your rank and file guardsmen, what better tale than one human made a difference when God was losing to his traitor son.
Maybe Horus hesitated, the last loyal fragment of his soul. Maybe the Emperor didn't need him to and coldly tried to kill him and still ended up bad enough that he needed Dorn to get him back to Terra. Maybe the Big E held back cause he wanted his favorite kid back.
No matter how it went down, one human made a difference, and saved the IOM.
sure except in the versions of the story that list it as a custodes, ohh or the versions that list it as an Imperial fist, none of these had the kind of hand wringing that the HH novels seem to.
Frankly the whole thing didn't make sense, and just like every thing that doesn't make any sense about the HH, the writers of BL now that they're revisiiting it need to find a way to make it make sense
Frankly the whole thing didn't make sense, and just like every thing that doesn't make any sense about the HH, the writers of BL now that they're revisiiting it need to find a way to make it make sense
And making him a guy the Emperor has known since the days of Nineveh, one of the very few people the Emperor ever considered a friend, seems like a pretty good way to make it make sense.
The "he was just a random guardsman" version will probably be the official Imperial propaganda version after the fact, because that's the only level on which that version really works.
Frankly the whole thing didn't make sense, and just like every thing that doesn't make any sense about the HH, the writers of BL now that they're revisiiting it need to find a way to make it make sense
And making him a guy the Emperor has known since the days of Nineveh, one of the very few people the Emperor ever considered a friend, seems like a pretty good way to make it make sense.
The "he was just a random guardsman" version will probably be the official Imperial propaganda version after the fact, because that's the only level on which that version really works.
yeah I have a hunch we're going to discover the connection between Oli and the Emperor is MUCH more complicated..
I'm going to make a prodictiion, Oli is the emperor's son.
Frankly the whole thing didn't make sense, and just like every thing that doesn't make any sense about the HH, the writers of BL now that they're revisiiting it need to find a way to make it make sense
And making him a guy the Emperor has known since the days of Nineveh, one of the very few people the Emperor ever considered a friend, seems like a pretty good way to make it make sense.
The "he was just a random guardsman" version will probably be the official Imperial propaganda version after the fact, because that's the only level on which that version really works.
yeah I have a hunch we're going to discover the connection between Oli and the Emperor is MUCH more complicated..
I'm going to make a prodictiion, Oli is the emperor's son.
That would suck so bad. They have already ruined the whole point Pius with this perpetual rubbish.
Back on topic again. I think we all agree they know next to nothing about old earth and what they do know is distorted.
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
It makes the super humans more humble too and gets rid of of perpetuals and their awfulness.
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
except it's not. all the people complaining seem absolutely upset that the whole legend is, like 90% of what common humanity realizes. a lie or at best a truth with important facts missing or ommited.
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
It makes the super humans more humble too and gets rid of of perpetuals and their awfulness.
you keep assuming everyone knows about perpetuals. they don't.
Ok, I know I'm late to the party on this, but are we going to ignore that some author named a Perpetual "Old Person" and somehow got away with it. C'mon BL, up your game.
Grimtuff wrote: Ohh oh- can we get an Amazon link for them too?
I have proven the Emperor was born in Anatolia with my quote for Perpetual Oll Persson talking to him outside of Nineveh in "Mark of Calth". And the Emperor has nothing to gain, as very people know or even care about Old Earth.
But everyone is free to interpret the setting however they want since canon is not in 40k. Have a nice day.
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
Its not imperial propaganda, and shouldn't be interpreted as such. Rank and file guardsmen aren't even supposed to know about Chaos (with the exception of Cadia because they were supposed to be guarding that whole gate thing. Good job btw). Names like "Horus", the "Luna Wolves", "Mortarian" these are names that have been scrubbed from the annals of Imperial History and you have to have at least a certain rank within the Imperium to even know about the great enemy. Lest we forget that guardsmen who come into contact with Chaos are summarily executed by the Inquisition even if they previal in battle . With Imperial Propaganda being focused on keeping the existence of Chaos a secret from the average citizens and guardsmen of the Imperium, making an argument that a Guardsmen's presence on the Battle Barge during the Horus Heresy is supposed to inspire the average guardsmen is nonsensical.
Whether we like it or not, that is information only available to us, the reader to tell a narrative. Indeed, in universe, the information of who was aboard the Vengeful Spirit when the Emperor finally faced down Horus would be the most classified of classified information.
Guardsmen not knowing about chaos is something GW has been all over the place over the years. While I agree the IOM does it's best to hide the nature of chaos from most people, it's pretty clear that by the time they are down training, they know what a chaos space marine is, even if they don't fully understand what exactly the traitors really fight for. I've never read a story were guard were attack by a chaos space marine and they didn't know what it was.
Also, I recall several stories were Horus's name was used as a curse. While a good chunk of what happened was scrubbed or lost to time, I'd imagine that a good chunk of the IOM know the basics. IG even had a relic named The Deathmask of Ollanius. Some version of the story must be common enough for that to be a thing.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Guardsmen not knowing about chaos is something GW has been all over the place over the years. While I agree the IOM does it's best to hide the nature of chaos from most people, it's pretty clear that by the time they are down training, they know what a chaos space marine is, even if they don't fully understand what exactly the traitors really fight for. I've never read a story were guard were attack by a chaos space marine and they didn't know what it was.
Also, I recall several stories were Horus's name was used as a curse. While a good chunk of what happened was scrubbed or lost to time, I'd imagine that a good chunk of the IOM know the basics. IG even had a relic named The Deathmask of Ollanius. Some version of the story must be common enough for that to be a thing.
Best guess I can make, is that everyone knows about the heresy, but that certain facts are ommited.
they likely know that a powerful being named Horus, lead 8 other generals to war against the Emperor, they likely even know he betrayed the Emperor on some level. They know if was a conflict with Horus that entombed the emperor.
What they DO NOT know is that Horus and his generals where Primarchs, swayed to the cause of Chaos.
I agree they won’t know about chaos but they do know about the heresy I think. But in a legend kind of way. No hard facts just folk tales. Twisted to make you not want to rebel any. That’s why old pius worked well. It made people think the emperor cared about them. The BL version of events is just undoing decades of great vague background writing. It was vague because that was how it would be in the actual setting. 10000 years on.
Andykp wrote: I agree they won’t know about chaos but they do know about the heresy I think. But in a legend kind of way. No hard facts just folk tales. Twisted to make you not want to rebel any. That’s why old pius worked well. It made people think the emperor cared about them. The BL version of events is just undoing decades of great vague background writing. It was vague because that was how it would be in the actual setting. 10000 years on.
sure, and in the end, what the HH books etc is revealing is, the emperor doesn't care about you but rather his concerns are more humanity as a whole. and he'll sacrifice you, everyone you care about all your hopes and dreams and your very soul if thats what it takes
Andykp wrote: I agree they won’t know about chaos but they do know about the heresy I think. But in a legend kind of way. No hard facts just folk tales. Twisted to make you not want to rebel any. That’s why old pius worked well. It made people think the emperor cared about them. The BL version of events is just undoing decades of great vague background writing. It was vague because that was how it would be in the actual setting. 10000 years on.
sure, and in the end, what the HH books etc is revealing is, the emperor doesn't care about you but rather his concerns are more humanity as a whole. and he'll sacrifice you, everyone you care about all your hopes and dreams and your very soul if thats what it takes
And I explained why the Emperor wasn't there during the Iron Wars. He came during the Age of Strife. Its all explained in the shaman origin from Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned.
And for what you are talking about, Perpetual Oll Persson makes more sense than the first story.
I think the most amusing thing about how much the IoM knows about Old Earth is that probably huge amounts of data over the preceding 30,000/40,000 years are buried in data stacks hidden at the bottom of archives on Terra, Mars, and a thousand other worlds. Likely much of the information is corrupted and unreadable due to neglect, but I bet many Wikipedia's worths of data is hidden under the noses of humanity in the IoM, only to be dredged up by the occasional archaelogist expedition into the bowels of some dusty, forgottern library.
A further interesting point is how many of the pre-Unification states of Terra fairly closely match the nation-states and regions of Old Earth. Places like Hy Brasil, Old Albia, the Pan Pacific Empire, Atlan etc. Clearly these names associated with regions have persisted for a long time, which suggests some link to Old Earth.
Haighus wrote: I think the most amusing thing about how much the IoM knows about Old Earth is that probably huge amounts of data over the preceding 30,000/40,000 years are buried in data stacks hidden at the bottom of archives on Terra, Mars, and a thousand other worlds. Likely much of the information is corrupted and unreadable due to neglect, but I bet many Wikipedia's worths of data is hidden under the noses of humanity in the IoM, only to be dredged up by the occasional archaelogist expedition into the bowels of some dusty, forgottern library.
A further interesting point is how many of the pre-Unification states of Terra fairly closely match the nation-states and regions of Old Earth. Places like Hy Brasil, Old Albia, the Pan Pacific Empire, Atlan etc. Clearly these names associated with regions have persisted for a long time, which suggests some link to Old Earth.
I do not think they even have most of the knowledge stored anywhere.
Haighus wrote: I think the most amusing thing about how much the IoM knows about Old Earth is that probably huge amounts of data over the preceding 30,000/40,000 years are buried in data stacks hidden at the bottom of archives on Terra, Mars, and a thousand other worlds. Likely much of the information is corrupted and unreadable due to neglect, but I bet many Wikipedia's worths of data is hidden under the noses of humanity in the IoM, only to be dredged up by the occasional archaelogist expedition into the bowels of some dusty, forgottern library.
A further interesting point is how many of the pre-Unification states of Terra fairly closely match the nation-states and regions of Old Earth. Places like Hy Brasil, Old Albia, the Pan Pacific Empire, Atlan etc. Clearly these names associated with regions have persisted for a long time, which suggests some link to Old Earth.
I do not think they even have most of the knowledge stored anywhere.
Not most, fragments. But something like the entiriety of Wikipedia can be stored on a single datachip. So those fragments could easily account for huge volumes of data, for those who seek them out. It is a similar situation with the STC fragments- what the Mechanicus knows is huge- they've recovered massive amounts of data. It is still a drop in the ocean of what has been lost.
Of course, I am referring to the entire period between Old Earth and 30k. The bits pertaining to 2k will be a small part of that. But it fits that a lot of data is both preserved, but lost due to the stagnant immensity of the Imperium. They lose stuff they find within a few mere centuries within vast archives. I would think much of the data has never even been seen by an Imperial servant, but many Imperial structures have their foundations in far older pre-Imperial buildings.
Haighus wrote: I think the most amusing thing about how much the IoM knows about Old Earth is that probably huge amounts of data over the preceding 30,000/40,000 years are buried in data stacks hidden at the bottom of archives on Terra, Mars, and a thousand other worlds. Likely much of the information is corrupted and unreadable due to neglect, but I bet many Wikipedia's worths of data is hidden under the noses of humanity in the IoM, only to be dredged up by the occasional archaelogist expedition into the bowels of some dusty, forgottern library.
A further interesting point is how many of the pre-Unification states of Terra fairly closely match the nation-states and regions of Old Earth. Places like Hy Brasil, Old Albia, the Pan Pacific Empire, Atlan etc. Clearly these names associated with regions have persisted for a long time, which suggests some link to Old Earth.
I do not think they even have most of the knowledge stored anywhere.
Not most, fragments. But something like the entiriety of Wikipedia can be stored on a single datachip. So those fragments could easily account for huge volumes of data, for those who seek them out. It is a similar situation with the STC fragments- what the Mechanicus knows is huge- they've recovered massive amounts of data. It is still a drop in the ocean of what has been lost.
Of course, I am referring to the entire period between Old Earth and 30k. The bits pertaining to 2k will be a small part of that. But it fits that a lot of data is both preserved, but lost due to the stagnant immensity of the Imperium. They lose stuff they find within a few mere centuries within vast archives. I would think much of the data has never even been seen by an Imperial servant, but many Imperial structures have their foundations in far older pre-Imperial buildings.
Do you have a source for this? The Imperium knows just about nothing about Old Earth, and they care about it just as much as they know about it.
Haighus wrote: I think the most amusing thing about how much the IoM knows about Old Earth is that probably huge amounts of data over the preceding 30,000/40,000 years are buried in data stacks hidden at the bottom of archives on Terra, Mars, and a thousand other worlds. Likely much of the information is corrupted and unreadable due to neglect, but I bet many Wikipedia's worths of data is hidden under the noses of humanity in the IoM, only to be dredged up by the occasional archaelogist expedition into the bowels of some dusty, forgottern library.
A further interesting point is how many of the pre-Unification states of Terra fairly closely match the nation-states and regions of Old Earth. Places like Hy Brasil, Old Albia, the Pan Pacific Empire, Atlan etc. Clearly these names associated with regions have persisted for a long time, which suggests some link to Old Earth.
I do not think they even have most of the knowledge stored anywhere.
Not most, fragments. But something like the entiriety of Wikipedia can be stored on a single datachip. So those fragments could easily account for huge volumes of data, for those who seek them out. It is a similar situation with the STC fragments- what the Mechanicus knows is huge- they've recovered massive amounts of data. It is still a drop in the ocean of what has been lost.
Of course, I am referring to the entire period between Old Earth and 30k. The bits pertaining to 2k will be a small part of that. But it fits that a lot of data is both preserved, but lost due to the stagnant immensity of the Imperium. They lose stuff they find within a few mere centuries within vast archives. I would think much of the data has never even been seen by an Imperial servant, but many Imperial structures have their foundations in far older pre-Imperial buildings.
Do you have a source for this? The Imperium knows just about nothing about Old Earth, and they care about it just as much as they know about it.
He doesn't need a source for it, he's speculating. Like you do in every thread you make.
Yeah, I'm not saying the Imperium knows much about Old Earth. I'm saying it is almost certainly sitting on hoards of data reaching all the way back to Old Earth that it doesn't know about, but could perhaps find pieces of if it put the effort in.
This is kinda the IoM's thing. Look how Arkhan Land found valuable STCs simply exploring the datastacks of Mars. He never left the homeworld of the Mechanicus to find the Land Raider, data they'd been sitting on top of for centuries, if not millennia, and didn't know about.
Imagine, onething, that they have millions of floppy discs but way of reading them. That what he’s suggesting. So they don’t know anything but with a bit of effort they could. It’s a nice theory and makes sense. I remember in one of the books I read, maybe titanicus where the ad mech were going through thousands of files and destroying them, and one found some information that could cause another schism, something that showed the emperor wasn’t the omnissiah and the info was suppressed. So it goes on.
The idea the information is all out there ties in with the crushing, monolithic bureaucracy of the Imperium too. There have been stories in previous rulebooks and Codices about scribes who spend their whole life writing out scripture or instructions, over and over, only to have their work put immediately into storage, and nobody knows why other than that's what they've always done. It would fit the theme of the setting for huge amounts of knowledge to be just sitting, waiting to be discovered by anyone inquisitive enough to look. But curiosity and free-thinking are not encouraged in the Imperium so such things remain forever hidden.
I seem to recall one of the BL authors (probably ADB) stating that there's lots of information on Mars in data repositories deep underground that nobody can access any more, because the civil war between loyalist and heretic Mechanicum factions during the HH left whole swathes of the planet's subterranean complexes full of traps and automated super-weapons, not to mention unbreakable doors that nobody has the codes for. Some of the lost data stores might even be infected with malicious scrapcode that could destroy every data repository on Mars if it ever got out, or might even be possessed by daemons who've been stuck there for the past ten millennia and are really annoyed about it.
let's use a lower tech comparison.Imagine if you would a library, this library is an old fashioned one, that doesn't have any electronics, the Librarian is a bit of a strange old sort. the book contains rows and rows and rows of books, of every imaginable type.. now, imagine there's a disaster, an earthquake that causes a fire during the middle of a hurricane (mental note, see if I can sell that idea to Hollywood, it's just stupid eneugh to be a good B movie) the librarian is dead, and his index got burned. the book shelves all collapses and fell to the ground, and to make matters worse some of the books got damaged and scattered about, and you're not sure if that page in your hand is from Lord of the Rings or Twilight! Now somewhere in this library is a book detailing an obscure war of history no one really knows much about, in fact you and everyone you know has never even HEARD of it. How do you know the books missing because someone whoi attempted to clean up the mess misfiled it in the teen romance section.
BrianDavion wrote: let's use a lower tech comparison.Imagine if you would a library, this library is an old fashioned one, that doesn't have any electronics, the Librarian is a bit of a strange old sort. the book contains rows and rows and rows of books, of every imaginable type.. now, imagine there's a disaster, an earthquake that causes a fire during the middle of a hurricane (mental note, see if I can sell that idea to Hollywood, it's just stupid eneugh to be a good B movie) the librarian is dead, and his index got burned. the book shelves all collapses and fell to the ground, and to make matters worse some of the books got damaged and scattered about, and you're not sure if that page in your hand is from Lord of the Rings or Twilight! Now somewhere in this library is a book detailing an obscure war of history no one really knows much about, in fact you and everyone you know has never even HEARD of it. How do you know the books missing because someone whoi attempted to clean up the mess misfiled it in the teen romance section.
And if you look at the books you get burned alive.
Haighus wrote: I think the most amusing thing about how much the IoM knows about Old Earth is that probably huge amounts of data over the preceding 30,000/40,000 years are buried in data stacks hidden at the bottom of archives on Terra, Mars, and a thousand other worlds. Likely much of the information is corrupted and unreadable due to neglect, but I bet many Wikipedia's worths of data is hidden under the noses of humanity in the IoM, only to be dredged up by the occasional archaelogist expedition into the bowels of some dusty, forgottern library.
A further interesting point is how many of the pre-Unification states of Terra fairly closely match the nation-states and regions of Old Earth. Places like Hy Brasil, Old Albia, the Pan Pacific Empire, Atlan etc. Clearly these names associated with regions have persisted for a long time, which suggests some link to Old Earth.
I do not think they even have most of the knowledge stored anywhere.
Not most, fragments. But something like the entiriety of Wikipedia can be stored on a single datachip. So those fragments could easily account for huge volumes of data, for those who seek them out. It is a similar situation with the STC fragments- what the Mechanicus knows is huge- they've recovered massive amounts of data. It is still a drop in the ocean of what has been lost.
Of course, I am referring to the entire period between Old Earth and 30k. The bits pertaining to 2k will be a small part of that. But it fits that a lot of data is both preserved, but lost due to the stagnant immensity of the Imperium. They lose stuff they find within a few mere centuries within vast archives. I would think much of the data has never even been seen by an Imperial servant, but many Imperial structures have their foundations in far older pre-Imperial buildings.
Do you have a source for this? The Imperium knows just about nothing about Old Earth, and they care about it just as much as they know about it.
He doesn't need a source for it, he's speculating. Like you do in every thread you make.
That's hardly true for me.
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Andykp wrote: Imagine, onething, that they have millions of floppy discs but way of reading them. That what he’s suggesting. So they don’t know anything but with a bit of effort they could. It’s a nice theory and makes sense. I remember in one of the books I read, maybe titanicus where the ad mech were going through thousands of files and destroying them, and one found some information that could cause another schism, something that showed the emperor wasn’t the omnissiah and the info was suppressed. So it goes on.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bear in mind how long a span of time 30,000 years is. 30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
Flight of the Eisenstein implies that Albert Einstein has been confused with Sergei Eisenstein.
Bear in mind that for most of the last 30k years in real history digital data storage didn't exist. For the next 30k years (following the 40k timeline) it will.
Obviously there are plenty of events that disrupt it, and 30k years is a very long time, but with how easy it is to copy and move information for most of that time it probably doesn't really become an issue until either the Emperor starts messing about with recorded history or the ecclesiarchy starts declaring it heresy.
Speaking as an archivist, digital data storage is, uh... not particularly relevant for the long term (it's convenient for active documents right now, but isn't particularly conducive to long term records) . Digital media is proving to be even less resilient than paper media, even in short spans of time. Part of it is how fragile the storage devices and mediums are (tapes, CDs and even USBs don't hold up well over time, even in 'perfect' storage conditions), part of it is simply the rate of change both for hardware and software formats. It's trivially easy to end up with unreadable documents (and this happened this century (want to say 2005 or 2006) with the US Census. The National Archives lost the rights to the software they used that year, and now can't access that year's census data at all.
Most digital documents are tied to proprietary software and specifically not designed to be universal. That isn't going to interface at all with systems tens of thousands of years in the future.
As it happens, it also fits into the 40K take on the Dark Age of Technology, where over-reliance on tech (especially digital computer tech) is a Very Bad thing.
Voss wrote: The National Archives lost the rights to the software they used that year, and now can't access that year's census data at all.
not to derail things too much but surely there are some sort of emergancy measures the US can use to access the files long eneugh to trasnfer the data to a more reliable format?!
Underneath London abandoned tube lines and tunnels are used as secure data storage sites for loads of big companies and most of the data is stored on tape I believe. Magnetic old school tape because old school works. Heard an amazing radio documentary on it. Too secret sites and tunnels miles and miles long all identical full of canisters of tape. Big tech companies and all sorts storing stuff like that.
Even the Crusade Imperium did not know much about Old Earth. And I read a lot of HH books, and have seen probably nothing proving what some people said about the Emperor being evil after reading many HH books myself.
Onething123456 wrote: Even the Crusade Imperium did not know much about Old Earth. And I read a lot of HH books, and have seen probably nothing proving what some people said about the Emperor being evil after reading many HH books myself.
Good and evil is subjective and more of a sliding scale than a hard yes or no. By modern standards, the Emperor would be on trial for a litany of war crimes. By 40k standards, in universe he clearly wants humanity to survive a brutal universe. To do that he had to make a lot of hard decisions, be incredibly cold at times, and generally was pretty bad at actually getting why individual humans behave like humans.
He also really underestimated/ seems to have a flawed idea about what makes the chaos gods actually work. That combined with his in ability to see that most people want to believe in something greater than themselves kinda screwed all his grand plans.
Onething123456 wrote: Even the Crusade Imperium did not know much about Old Earth. And I read a lot of HH books, and have seen probably nothing proving what some people said about the Emperor being evil after reading many HH books myself.
Good and evil is subjective and more of a sliding scale than a hard yes or no. By modern standards, the Emperor would be on trial for a litany of war crimes. By 40k standards, in universe he clearly wants humanity to survive a brutal universe. To do that he had to make a lot of hard decisions, be incredibly cold at times, and generally was pretty bad at actually getting why individual humans behave like humans.
He also really underestimated/ seems to have a flawed idea about what makes the chaos gods actually work. That combined with his in ability to see that most people want to believe in something greater than themselves kinda screwed all his grand plans.
And I have seen no proof for any of what you said about him. Prove it if you have proof. Because I think most of the bad things I heard about him are bs after reading the Horus Heresy books myself.
Basically, put up or shut up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Out of all the links I was given here to the Emperor being "evil", I only saw one that in anyway, shape or form was proof. And that link was from the Forgeworld books.
EDIT: I am not being hostile, I want proof and am convinced most of what I heard is bs.
And look, ADB in my talk with him on Reddit said that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT tech.
All your link there does is show your trying to tell a friggen WRITER what he said.
as for the emperor's evilness or not, evil is as evil does. Yes the Emperor had justifications for what he did, but real life isn't disney, evil people in real life don't go running around twirling their mustaches, cackling maniacly and being evil for it's own sake. At least not people who use the power of the state to commit evil. They JUSTIFY IT.
Let's use a modern day comparison, Joesph Stalin. Stalin today is widely considered an evil man often compared with Hitler (many have argued he was even WORSE then Hitler) BUT, much of what he did, it is also argued, may have been nesscary, his purges, his various harsh programs, where all needed to turn the soviet union from a backwards barely industrialized nation, into a modern nation in a short period of time, because Stalin was of the opinion that if he didn't the west would inevitably invade, and sure eneugh... Germany invaded. everything Stalin did he had a justification and a reason for... that does not mean that his actions are not seen as, by modern standards, evil.
the emperor is by any modern definition evil, but... and this is what makes 40k what is it.... he's a NESSCARY EVIL. 40k is basicly the ying to Star Trek's Yang, Star Trek presents us a future where humanity is able to, with technolgical advances and access to the stars, able to over come it's worst impulses and allow our better natures to guide us. 40k meanwhile presents us a future that is horrific, where for the survival of the human race, we must abandon many of our more enlightned aspects and embrace some of the worst elements of humanity. (for the record I find both settings can make for compelling stories.)
Thanks for the links Onething, quite funny watching someone tell an author they're wrong about something they had a hand in writing, while randomly quoting semi-related fluff to them. It does illustrate a bit of a problem with your reading of the background though. If you're trying to argue the Emperor isn't a hypocrite over the Mechanicus it kind of shows you may not have really understood a lot of the stuff going on in the HH background. That level of hypocrisy is one of the little lies that allows Chaos to gain a foothold in the Traitor Legions. If the Emperor is willing to lie on such a grand scale to further his goals, what else will he lie about?
As for the Emperor not being a war criminal by modern standards, how can you possibly claim he isn't if you've been paying any sort of attention? He had the Thunder Warriors wiped out after they had outlived their usefulness and has absolutely no problem slaughtering entire systems of humans if they refuse to accept the Imperial Truth. That's genocide on a scale literally impossible to accomplish in today's world. It makes him the most prolific butcher of his own kind in history. You can try to justify it by saying he was trying to accomplish something greater and save humanity in the end but very few, if any, truly evil people believe themselves to be evil. All will find justification for what they do.
Interesting that ADB confirms that Alan Bligh was a fan of the Emperor being DAOT theory given he was the father of the Heresy lore essentially.
The Emperor was quite clearly evil as far as the Eldar, Tau, Orks would perceive him and doubtless large swathes of humanity would have thought the same as their planet burnt around him by his command.
Surely that's one of the best parts of 40k anyway, you're literally in a "best of a bad bunch" situation rather than good guys v bad guys.
foostick wrote: Interesting that ADB confirms that Alan Bligh was a fan of the Emperor being DAOT theory given he was the father of the Heresy lore essentially.
I think it's VERY intreasting, especially as Bligh would have formed that theory well after the whole rogue trader shaman theory, which suggests the HH writers are NOT constrained by that lore.
foostick wrote: Interesting that ADB confirms that Alan Bligh was a fan of the Emperor being DAOT theory given he was the father of the Heresy lore essentially.
I think it's VERY intreasting, especially as Bligh would have formed that theory well after the whole rogue trader shaman theory, which suggests the HH writers are NOT constrained by that lore.
Kind of makes me think about Star Trek and the whole eugenics wars/post-human takeover that’s part of their past. Basically what might of happened if one of those trans humans had god like psychic powers and remained undiscovered for ages while civilization collapsed around it? When they re-emerge of course most people will simply assume that they are a new player at the table.
foostick wrote: Interesting that ADB confirms that Alan Bligh was a fan of the Emperor being DAOT theory given he was the father of the Heresy lore essentially.
The Emperor was quite clearly evil as far as the Eldar, Tau, Orks would perceive him and doubtless large swathes of humanity would have thought the same as their planet burnt around him by his command.
Surely that's one of the best parts of 40k anyway, you're literally in a "best of a bad bunch" situation rather than good guys v bad guys.
Yes, ADB's friend was a fan of it. But ADB said in his talk with me on Reddit that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT.
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Slipspace wrote: Thanks for the links Onething, quite funny watching someone tell an author they're wrong about something they had a hand in writing, while randomly quoting semi-related fluff to them. It does illustrate a bit of a problem with your reading of the background though. If you're trying to argue the Emperor isn't a hypocrite over the Mechanicus it kind of shows you may not have really understood a lot of the stuff going on in the HH background. That level of hypocrisy is one of the little lies that allows Chaos to gain a foothold in the Traitor Legions. If the Emperor is willing to lie on such a grand scale to further his goals, what else will he lie about?
As for the Emperor not being a war criminal by modern standards, how can you possibly claim he isn't if you've been paying any sort of attention? He had the Thunder Warriors wiped out after they had outlived their usefulness and has absolutely no problem slaughtering entire systems of humans if they refuse to accept the Imperial Truth. That's genocide on a scale literally impossible to accomplish in today's world. It makes him the most prolific butcher of his own kind in history. You can try to justify it by saying he was trying to accomplish something greater and save humanity in the end but very few, if any, truly evil people believe themselves to be evil. All will find justification for what they do.
The Emperor is not a hypocrite for dealing with the Mechanicus in the sense he secretly had a god complex or approved of religion.
The Emperor is both a hypocrite and a liar. He lied to his sons about the nature of chaos and enforced a fairly strict no religious policy to the point of humiliating one of his sons and left him open to corruption and manipulation. He hid a ton of information about what his end game was and that caused all kinds of problems.
Despite that he had no problem with Mars keeping their religion because he needed them to make tech for his crusade and didn't have time or resources to put them down and strip them of their worship. He was pragmatic in some regards but mind blowingly dense in other contexts, like actually realizing that most people need more than Do it cause I told you, stop thinking about it or asking questions. I find it a humorous irony that the God of Mankind is really bad at basic people skills.
foostick wrote: Interesting that ADB confirms that Alan Bligh was a fan of the Emperor being DAOT theory given he was the father of the Heresy lore essentially.
The Emperor was quite clearly evil as far as the Eldar, Tau, Orks would perceive him and doubtless large swathes of humanity would have thought the same as their planet burnt around him by his command.
Surely that's one of the best parts of 40k anyway, you're literally in a "best of a bad bunch" situation rather than good guys v bad guys.
Yes, ADB's friend was a fan of it. But ADB said in his talk with me on Reddit that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT.
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Slipspace wrote: Thanks for the links Onething, quite funny watching someone tell an author they're wrong about something they had a hand in writing, while randomly quoting semi-related fluff to them. It does illustrate a bit of a problem with your reading of the background though. If you're trying to argue the Emperor isn't a hypocrite over the Mechanicus it kind of shows you may not have really understood a lot of the stuff going on in the HH background. That level of hypocrisy is one of the little lies that allows Chaos to gain a foothold in the Traitor Legions. If the Emperor is willing to lie on such a grand scale to further his goals, what else will he lie about?
As for the Emperor not being a war criminal by modern standards, how can you possibly claim he isn't if you've been paying any sort of attention? He had the Thunder Warriors wiped out after they had outlived their usefulness and has absolutely no problem slaughtering entire systems of humans if they refuse to accept the Imperial Truth. That's genocide on a scale literally impossible to accomplish in today's world. It makes him the most prolific butcher of his own kind in history. You can try to justify it by saying he was trying to accomplish something greater and save humanity in the end but very few, if any, truly evil people believe themselves to be evil. All will find justification for what they do.
The Emperor is not a hypocrite for dealing with the Mechanicus in the sense he secretly had a god complex or approved of religion.
No one is SAYING he had a god complex. as ADB said, he didn't... THATS THE HIPOCRACY.
foostick wrote: Interesting that ADB confirms that Alan Bligh was a fan of the Emperor being DAOT theory given he was the father of the Heresy lore essentially.
The Emperor was quite clearly evil as far as the Eldar, Tau, Orks would perceive him and doubtless large swathes of humanity would have thought the same as their planet burnt around him by his command.
Surely that's one of the best parts of 40k anyway, you're literally in a "best of a bad bunch" situation rather than good guys v bad guys.
Yes, ADB's friend was a fan of it. But ADB said in his talk with me on Reddit that we can safely say the Emperor is not DAOT.
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Slipspace wrote: Thanks for the links Onething, quite funny watching someone tell an author they're wrong about something they had a hand in writing, while randomly quoting semi-related fluff to them. It does illustrate a bit of a problem with your reading of the background though. If you're trying to argue the Emperor isn't a hypocrite over the Mechanicus it kind of shows you may not have really understood a lot of the stuff going on in the HH background. That level of hypocrisy is one of the little lies that allows Chaos to gain a foothold in the Traitor Legions. If the Emperor is willing to lie on such a grand scale to further his goals, what else will he lie about?
As for the Emperor not being a war criminal by modern standards, how can you possibly claim he isn't if you've been paying any sort of attention? He had the Thunder Warriors wiped out after they had outlived their usefulness and has absolutely no problem slaughtering entire systems of humans if they refuse to accept the Imperial Truth. That's genocide on a scale literally impossible to accomplish in today's world. It makes him the most prolific butcher of his own kind in history. You can try to justify it by saying he was trying to accomplish something greater and save humanity in the end but very few, if any, truly evil people believe themselves to be evil. All will find justification for what they do.
The Emperor is not a hypocrite for dealing with the Mechanicus in the sense he secretly had a god complex or approved of religion.
No one is SAYING he had a god complex. as ADB said, he didn't... THATS THE HIPOCRACY.
Anyway - whilst ADB may have said we can say the Emps isn't DAOT, it doesn't mean another writer can't go down that route. It's something it'd be cool to explore in the setting if it hasn't been already. Although I suppose arguably you could say he's now an extension of the Golden Throne so maybe he is...
foostick wrote: You've also been told by the Mods not to do it.
Anyway - whilst ADB may have said we can say the Emps isn't DAOT, it doesn't mean another writer can't go down that route. It's something it'd be cool to explore in the setting if it hasn't been already. Although I suppose arguably you could say he's now an extension of the Golden Throne so maybe he is...
There is no canon in 40k. So everyone is free to interpret the setting however they want. But if you go by lore, the Emperor was around on Old Earth. The Perpetuals show that.
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There is no canon in 40k. So everyone is free to interpret the setting however they want. But if you go by lore, the Emperor was around on Old Earth. The Perpetuals show that.
I for got say sorry for the quote post. I forgot not to do it.
I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.
The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.
As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?
Andykp wrote: I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.
The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.
As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?
Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.
A hypothetical theory. No quotes for it but it will covers your perpetual stuff.
Emperor was alive shaman origin style. Met the dreadful and “badly written perpetuals” But...in the DAOT he was killed and turned into a piece of tech that adopted all of his powers and memories. Maybe that is why chaos had a hard time with him because he was a machine without a soul?
Andykp wrote: I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.
The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.
As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?
Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.
Andykp wrote: I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.
The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.
As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?
Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.
You don't seem to understand what hypocrisy is. Literal definition (the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. He claims that all religions are false, there is one truth and there are no gods. Anyone who thinks differently must be brought into compliance one way or another. I am definitely not a god.
But what about those martians over who worship a god and think of you as an aspect of it ? Those guys are totally fine as long as I get my shipment of bolters on time.
The Emperor did not practice what he preached because he needed the Forgeworlds and didn't have time to force them to change, particularly Mars, which if he had gone to war with most likely would have ended with a Pyrrhic victory at best.
He believed in the Imperial Truth only because he incorrectly thought he could starve the Chaos Gods out if no one knew about them or actively worshiped them.
That there are no such thing as gods? We don't know for sure what he believes for sure, in regards to whether he himself is a god or if he considers the chaos gods well gods. Again we could squabble over what a god in this setting is, but if they do exist the 4 big aspects of Chaos would probably be at the top of the list.
He pushed the Imperial Truth though for one specific reason, namely his incorrect belief that the Chaos Gods were fed by religion and needed active worship to stay powerful. The first one may be true depending on the religion, the second is false.
Andykp wrote: I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.
The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.
As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?
Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.
You don't seem to understand what hypocrisy is. Literal definition (the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. He claims that all religions are false, there is one truth and there are no gods. Anyone who thinks differently must be brought into compliance one way or another. I am definitely not a god.
But what about those martians over who worship a god and think of you as an aspect of it ? Those guys are totally fine as long as I get my shipment of bolters on time.
The Emperor did not practice what he preached because he needed the Forgeworlds and didn't have time to force them to change, particularly Mars, which if he had gone to war with most likely would have ended with a Pyrrhic victory at best.
He believed in the Imperial Truth only because he incorrectly thought he could starve the Chaos Gods out if no one knew about them or actively worshiped them.
not only that but if the novel Mechanium is to belived, the emperor DELIBERATELY ENGINEERED Mars to develop into a society that would worship him. there's no ifs ands or buts here, the emperor meddled with Martian society and ensured that the prophecies of the Omnissah would develop, and that they would "herald his coming" Not only did the Emperor tolerate being worshipped as an aspect of the Martian god.. He engineered it
Andykp wrote: I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.
The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.
As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?
Does that mean he secretly has a god complex and does not believe in the Imperial Truth? No.
You don't seem to understand what hypocrisy is. Literal definition (the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform. He claims that all religions are false, there is one truth and there are no gods. Anyone who thinks differently must be brought into compliance one way or another. I am definitely not a god.
But what about those martians over who worship a god and think of you as an aspect of it ? Those guys are totally fine as long as I get my shipment of bolters on time.
The Emperor did not practice what he preached because he needed the Forgeworlds and didn't have time to force them to change, particularly Mars, which if he had gone to war with most likely would have ended with a Pyrrhic victory at best.
He believed in the Imperial Truth only because he incorrectly thought he could starve the Chaos Gods out if no one knew about them or actively worshiped them.
not only that but if the novel Mechanium is to belived, the emperor DELIBERATELY ENGINEERED Mars to develop into a society that would worship him. there's no ifs ands or buts here, the emperor meddled with Martian society and ensured that the prophecies of the Omnissah would develop, and that they would "herald his coming" Not only did the Emperor tolerate being worshipped as an aspect of the Martian god.. He engineered it
Because he could not destroy the Void Dragon. This is explained. He does not have a god complex.
no one is saying he has a god complex, seriously dude, stop trying to argue someone that no one is saying.It's a straw man arguement at best. what are are saying is the emperor is a hipocrite. not being able to destroy the void dragon is, frankly irrelevant, there where PLENTY of ways he could have handled it (including shackling it in an astroid thats floating in deep space between star systems) instead he choose to bury it on Mars specificly so it could groom the world to be his weapons foundry.
the height of hipocracy.
Onething123456 wrote: I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.
There isn't any indication he does. Given his abilities (particularly precog and other psychic stuff) and level of power, the Heresy novels paint one of two pictures of the Emperor:
He's the most incompetent idiot ever.
He deliberately set up the Heresy and everything that followed, for some unknown goal. It may even be a justified sacrifice that guarantees the survival of humanity (or some other 'noble goal') in his own mind. But he's spent the last 10,000 feasting on souls of billions and the figurehead for an Empire that kills trillions more, so he's quite happy with the mantle of godhood as long as it serves his goals. And per the new books (Dark Imperium and whatnot, with the revived Roboute), he's perfectly content using his 'sons' as tools to make his plans easier... for himself.
Onething123456 wrote: I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.
There isn't any indication he does. Given his abilities (particularly precog and other psychic stuff) and level of power, the Heresy novels paint one of two pictures of the Emperor:
He's the most incompetent idiot ever.
He deliberately set up the Heresy and everything that followed, for some unknown goal. It may even be a justified sacrifice that guarantees the survival of humanity (or some other 'noble goal') in his own mind. But he's spent the last 10,000 feasting on souls of billions and the figurehead for an Empire that kills trillions more, so he's quite happy with the mantle of godhood as long as it serves his goals. And per the new books (Dark Imperium and whatnot, with the revived Roboute), he's perfectly content using his 'sons' as tools to make his plans easier... for himself.
We don't know how the Emperor views his children. ADB said in interviews not to take it seriously, as different people hear different things when "speaking" to the Emperor.
Onething123456 wrote: I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.
That's not what anyone said, nor did anyone claim he had a god complex. The hypocrisy is entirely down to his promoting a secular society and being actively hostile towards religion while simultaneously not just allowing, but exploiting, the religious beliefs of the Mechanicum because it suits his goals. That's textbook hypocrisy. That's all people are saying. The other points you're arguing against are strawmen you've pulled out of thin air.
That said, I'll argue he had a god complex. The Emperor routinly futzed about with creating entirely new life, (genetic engineering on the level of creating the primarchs is something that MANY people would claim is "playing god") altered and manipulated the course of human events for god knows how long as part of a master plan, etc. The Emperor may not have been a god, may have denied it, but you can't deny he is guilty of "playing god"
BrianDavion wrote: That said, I'll argue he had a god complex. The Emperor routinly futzed about with creating entirely new life, (genetic engineering on the level of creating the primarchs is something that MANY people would claim is "playing god") altered and manipulated the course of human events for god knows how long as part of a master plan, etc. The Emperor may not have been a god, may have denied it, but you can't deny he is guilty of "playing god"
That's a fair point. He doesn't seem to have a god complex, in the sense that he genuinely didn't seem to want others to view him as a god. At the same time, his actions do show him certainly playing god in the ways you describe. It's those actions that lead to problems with Lorgar later on as he, quite logically, points out all the god-like things the Emperor has done. The Emperor probably doesn't see it as playing god, though. Probably more like doing what is necessary to safeguard humanity. To him it probably seems logical to create the Primarchs and since he has the means to do it I don't think he would view it as a god-like act. That just further reinforces his disconnection from humanity.
I agree with the previous two views- it seems pretty clear the Emperor does have a “God-Complex”, particularly in relation to him feeling that he knows whays best for the course of huma evolution, and seemingly engineering everything in order to make hilanity able to manifest ad a psychic race.
Who decides they know whats best for an entire species outside of someone with a god conplex?
Onething123456 wrote: I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.
There isn't any indication he does. Given his abilities (particularly precog and other psychic stuff) and level of power, the Heresy novels paint one of two pictures of the Emperor:
He's the most incompetent idiot ever.
He deliberately set up the Heresy and everything that followed, for some unknown goal. It may even be a justified sacrifice that guarantees the survival of humanity (or some other 'noble goal') in his own mind. But he's spent the last 10,000 feasting on souls of billions and the figurehead for an Empire that kills trillions more, so he's quite happy with the mantle of godhood as long as it serves his goals. And per the new books (Dark Imperium and whatnot, with the revived Roboute), he's perfectly content using his 'sons' as tools to make his plans easier... for himself.
We don't know how the Emperor views his children. ADB said in interviews not to take it seriously, as different people hear different things when "speaking" to the Emperor.
This circles back to most incompetent idiot ever, if he can't manage basic communication with his most capable subordinates.
Especially if he doesn't realize they are getting different messages, and completely different layers of meaning. That's exactly how you get Lorgar and Magnus. 'I heard him say he -wants- chaos magic/an imperial cult.'
Thouh more realistically, it sounds like ADB is just handwaving bad writing with a clumsy attempt at 'don't worry about it so much.'
There is kinda a narrative problem with first building Emperor as this tens of thousands of years old super master mind and the most powerful being in the setting and still have him to fail and frankly, fail in quite a predictable manner too. The whole thing just makes way more sense if we just forget the ancient origins and interpret some of his most amazing psychic feats as exaggerated legends. He was just a really successful warlord from the Age of Strife and a powerful psyker, but nothing as extraordinary than commonly believed (and what he wanted people to believe!)
Crimson wrote: There is kinda a narrative problem with first building Emperor as this tens of thousands of years old super master mind and the most powerful being in the setting and still have him to fail and frankly, fail in quite a predictable manner too. The whole thing just makes way more sense if we just forget the ancient origins and interpret some of his most amazing psychic feats as exaggerated legends. He was just a really successful warlord from the Age of Strife and a powerful psyker, but nothing as extraordinary than commonly believed (and what he wanted people to believe!)
That is hardly the case. He can grant powers and immortality to people as he did with the Guardians of the Void Dragon, has a Godlike glamour, and so on.
The below quote is from Graham Mcneill's Mechanicum.
Dalia felt the heat in Semyon's hands spread into her flesh, a golden radiance that filled her with unimaginable well being. She wanted to cry out in ecstasy as she felt every decaying fibre in her body surge with a new lease of life, every withered cell and every portion of her flesh blooming as a power undreamed of filled her. Her body was reborn, filled with a sliver of the power and knowledge of a world's most singular individual, power and knowledge that had been passed down from Guardian to Guardian over the millennia, a burden and an honour in one unasked for gift. With that knowledge, her anger at the Emperor's deception was swept away as she saw the ultimate, horrifying fate of the human race bereft of his guidance. She saw his single-minded, pitiless drive to steer his entire race along a narrow path of survival only he could see, a life that allowed no love, few friends and an eternity of sacrifice. Dalia wanted to scream, feeling the power threaten to consume her, the awesome ferocity of it almost burning away all the things that made her who she was. She fought to hold onto her identity, but she was the last leaf on a dying tree and she felt her memories and sense of self subsumed into the fate the Emperor had decreed for her. At last the roaring power within her was spent, its work to remould her form complete, and she let out a great, shuddering breath as she realised she was still herself. She was still Dalia Cythera, but so much more as well. Semyon released her hands and stepped away from her with a look of contented release upon his face. 'Goodbye, Dalia,' said Semyon. The adept's skin greyed and his entire body dissolved into a fine golden dust, leaving only his aged robes to fall to the rocky floor. Dalia looked over at the hulking servitor that had accompanied the adept and was not surprised when it also disintegrated into dust.
And you cannot ignore the Perpetuals just because you hate them. And should we say the Eldar aren't 65 million years old? They used to play with stars as their "mere dreams once overturned worlds and quenched stars."
Onething123456 wrote: I know what hypocrisy is. But the way you guys said it to me implied you thought he did not believe in the Imperial Truth.
There isn't any indication he does. Given his abilities (particularly precog and other psychic stuff) and level of power, the Heresy novels paint one of two pictures of the Emperor:
He's the most incompetent idiot ever.
He deliberately set up the Heresy and everything that followed, for some unknown goal. It may even be a justified sacrifice that guarantees the survival of humanity (or some other 'noble goal') in his own mind. But he's spent the last 10,000 feasting on souls of billions and the figurehead for an Empire that kills trillions more, so he's quite happy with the mantle of godhood as long as it serves his goals. And per the new books (Dark Imperium and whatnot, with the revived Roboute), he's perfectly content using his 'sons' as tools to make his plans easier... for himself.
We don't know how the Emperor views his children. ADB said in interviews not to take it seriously, as different people hear different things when "speaking" to the Emperor.
This circles back to most incompetent idiot ever, if he can't manage basic communication with his most capable subordinates.
Especially if he doesn't realize they are getting different messages, and completely different layers of meaning. That's exactly how you get Lorgar and Magnus. 'I heard him say he -wants- chaos magic/an imperial cult.'
Thouh more realistically, it sounds like ADB is just handwaving bad writing with a clumsy attempt at 'don't worry about it so much.'
A much more simple answer would be is that the Emperor has lost touch with humanity and struggles to emphasize with mortals.
And this below quote would imply he did know about the Heresy.
‘The Emperor sees things we do not,’ said Semyon. ‘He knows the future and he guides us towards it. A nudge here, seeding a prepared prophecy of his coming there, the beginnings of the transhumanist movement, the push from humanity’s understanding of science to its mastery… all of it by his design, working towards one glorious union in the future where the forges of Mars would perceive the Emperor as the divinity for whom they had been waiting for centuries.’
‘You mean the Emperor orchestrated the evolution of the Mechanicum?’
‘Of course,’ said Semyon. ‘He knew that one day he would need such a mighty organisation to serve him, and from the Dragon’s dreams came the first machines of the priests of Mars. Without the Dragon there would have been no Mechanicum, and without the Mechanicum, the Emperor’s grand dream of a united galaxy for Humanity would have withered on the vine.’
Dalia tried to grasp the unimaginable scale of the Emperor’s designs, the clarity of a vision that could set schemes in motion that would not come to fruition for over twenty thousand years. It was simply staggering that anyone, even the Emperor, could have so carefully and precisely orchestrated the destiny of so many with such skill and cold ruthlessness.
The scale of the deception was beyond measure and the callousness of it took her breath away. To lie to so many people, to twist the destiny of a planet to suit one man’s aims, even a being as lofty as the Emperor, was a crime of such monstrous proportions that Dalia’s mind shied away from that awful calumny.
‘If the truth of this became known,’ breathed Dalia. ‘It would tear the Mechanicum apart.’
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Andykp wrote: I prefer the way Alan Bligh told the HH story than the way black library have been doing it.
The emperor said religion is bad but was ok with it when mars demanded to keep theirs. That is hypocrisy right there. Text book. He did it. Therefore he is a hypocrit.
As for evil? Murdered billions and billions of people and sentient beings for his own goals. Pretty evil?
And I have still seen more or less nothing proving he "murdered" billions. I got only one link from the Forgeworld books that was in anyway in the least proof for that. He conquered planets. Yes. What the hell do you expect? Its conquest. But conquest is not inherently evil. Alexander the Great did it, the Romans did it, The Persians did it (the Persians under Xerxes were closer to a modern society with equal rights than probably any other empire), and so on.
I would feel better if we just let it go. But I am saying as I have read many Horus Heresy books, and think what are you saying is bs.
We have discussed this before, he liberated millions of worlds by killing millions of people on those worlds. Every death in the great crusade is on him. If you think he only freed people from tyranny and the entire galaxy was full of unhappy oppressed people who, then what are they now? I gave you examples of civilisations he destroyed. Sure some people were happy but plenty weren’t. Otherwise his marines wouldn’t have been as busy. He even wiped out his own warriors when they became obsolete.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Conquest is uninvited so from the conquered point of view it isn’t good and dying as a result is murder.
Even now millions of psyker are sacrificed to him so his chair works.
Andykp wrote: We have discussed this before, he liberated millions of worlds by killing millions of people on those worlds. Every death in the great crusade is on him. If you think he only freed people from tyranny and the entire galaxy was full of unhappy oppressed people who, then what are they now? I gave you examples of civilisations he destroyed. Sure some people were happy but plenty weren’t. Otherwise his marines wouldn’t have been as busy. He even wiped out his own warriors when they became obsolete.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Conquest is uninvited so from the conquered point of view it isn’t good and dying as a result is murder.
Even now millions of psyker are sacrificed to him so his chair works.
He does not just free people. I did not say that. He is a conqueror. He freed a lot of people, he also conquered those that refused to join. Xerxes (who was closer to a modern politician with equal rights beliefs than any empire leader) freed, but also conquered.
Andykp wrote: We have discussed this before, he liberated millions of worlds by killing millions of people on those worlds. Every death in the great crusade is on him. If you think he only freed people from tyranny and the entire galaxy was full of unhappy oppressed people who, then what are they now? I gave you examples of civilisations he destroyed. Sure some people were happy but plenty weren’t. Otherwise his marines wouldn’t have been as busy. He even wiped out his own warriors when they became obsolete.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Conquest is uninvited so from the conquered point of view it isn’t good and dying as a result is murder.
Even now millions of psyker are sacrificed to him so his chair works.
He does not just free people. I did not say that. He is a conqueror. He freed a lot of people, he also conquered those that refused to join. Xerxes (who was closer to a modern politician with equal rights beliefs than any empire leader) freed, but also conquered.
This doesn’t change the fact that in conquering the emperor killed millions of and billions of people in the crusade. He had systems put to death, he had entire races of aliens destroyed and not to mention mutants and psykers he did away with. The crusade was a galactic genocide. The emperor is not some liberal going round being nice. It’s his way or death. He is a classic despot.
Andykp wrote: We have discussed this before, he liberated millions of worlds by killing millions of people on those worlds. Every death in the great crusade is on him. If you think he only freed people from tyranny and the entire galaxy was full of unhappy oppressed people who, then what are they now? I gave you examples of civilisations he destroyed. Sure some people were happy but plenty weren’t. Otherwise his marines wouldn’t have been as busy. He even wiped out his own warriors when they became obsolete.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Conquest is uninvited so from the conquered point of view it isn’t good and dying as a result is murder.
Even now millions of psyker are sacrificed to him so his chair works.
He does not just free people. I did not say that. He is a conqueror. He freed a lot of people, he also conquered those that refused to join. Xerxes (who was closer to a modern politician with equal rights beliefs than any empire leader) freed, but also conquered.
This doesn’t change the fact that in conquering the emperor killed millions of and billions of people in the crusade. He had systems put to death, he had entire races of aliens destroyed and not to mention mutants and psykers he did away with. The crusade was a galactic genocide. The emperor is not some liberal going round being nice. It’s his way or death. He is a classic despot.
It makes more sense for the Emperor to conquer planets that refuse to join instead of destroying them, and that is what he mostly did. And the Laer on page 28 in the Fulgrim book show the Council of Terra thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (conquer them, not wipe them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity's, not because they were aliens.
Almost all aliens during the Crusade were hostile.
No, he is not. And I still have not seen real proof for any of what you said, except maybe that one link from the Forgeworld books.
But I think it would be better if we skipped this topic.
How do you think he conquered these non compliant planets. He killed lots of them. In a war. Saving one species nearly doesn’t make up for the genocide He commited a million times over. You don’t conquer by just turning up. It takes death. And a lot of it.
A much more simple answer would be is that the Emperor has lost touch with humanity and struggles to emphasize with mortals.
I always saw it that the pre-heresy Emperor shows pretty much all his 'sons' flaws, to a greater or lesser extent:
~ Lorgar's absolute conviction in his own self-righteousness
~ The Lion and Russ' slightly smug hypocracy that no-one else can be trusted with the whole truth and/or his best toys
~ Magnus' certitude that nothing can possibly go wrong
~ Gulliman's slightly naive faith in humanity as a whole species
~ Perturabo's disdain for (and willingness to treat as expendable) specific member of said species
Andykp wrote: How do you think he conquered these non compliant planets. He killed lots of them. In a war. Saving one species nearly doesn’t make up for the genocide He commited a million times over. You don’t conquer by just turning up. It takes death. And a lot of it.
He slaughtered the soldiers and left civilians alone, as many conquerors did.
Andykp wrote: How do you think he conquered these non compliant planets. He killed lots of them. In a war. Saving one species nearly doesn’t make up for the genocide He commited a million times over. You don’t conquer by just turning up. It takes death. And a lot of it.
He slaughtered the soldiers and left civilians alone, as many conquerors did.
And I am twenty years old, not thirteen.
No dude, civilians where slaughtered during the conquests. Also there where plenty of times entire worlds where out and out PURGED. you don't think the world eaters or the space wolves just politely killed soldiers and left civilians alone do you?
Andykp wrote: How do you think he conquered these non compliant planets. He killed lots of them. In a war. Saving one species nearly doesn’t make up for the genocide He commited a million times over. You don’t conquer by just turning up. It takes death. And a lot of it.
He slaughtered the soldiers and left civilians alone, as many conquerors did.
And I am twenty years old, not thirteen.
No dude, civilians where slaughtered during the conquests. Also there where plenty of times entire worlds where out and out PURGED. you don't think the world eaters or the space wolves just politely killed soldiers and left civilians alone do you?
Actually, the Space Wolves did that. The linked book below has a short story where the Space Wolves spare the tyrants of Kernnunos even after they (verbally) spat in the Emperor's face. If they spare those evil types of people, then I think they would leave civilians alone. And the Emperor actually chasitised the World Eatres.
Care to name those instances? Because I think most of that is bs after reading the HH books myself.
Here a juicy quote from Age of Darkness. How do you explain the quote below?
"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face."Pg.32 Age of Darkness
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face."Pg.32 Age of Darkness
Then why do they have phosphex, virus bombs, planet killing space stations. Just look at current warfare to see the impact it has on civilians. Peaceful systems were brought into compliance and deaths occurred. They never asked to liberated or wanted it in many cases hence the resistance. Being a crusader and conqueror isn’t a benevolent act. It’s violent and oppressive. Look at what happened on caliban after they happily joined the empire. The planet was raped of its resources and the population mobilised in forced labour and herded into hive cities. And we all know what that does for life expectancy and happiness. And they were happy to join. Imagine, from a normal humans point of view what it was like if you resisted. Total war, orbital bombardment, siege warfare with disease and famine. Civilian casualties a plenty. And you say they killed soldiers like that’s fine but they invade places minding their own business and slaughtered their armies. That’s a war crime today never mind in the 31st millennium. If I are twenty then open your eyes to the fact that the stories, if they were true, would be horrific. Truly horrific. Then read up on the human cost of war. It’s equally horrific.
Andykp wrote: Then why do they have phosphex, virus bombs, planet killing space stations. Just look at current warfare to see the impact it has on civilians. Peaceful systems were brought into compliance and deaths occurred. They never asked to liberated or wanted it in many cases hence the resistance. Being a crusader and conqueror isn’t a benevolent act. It’s violent and oppressive. Look at what happened on caliban after they happily joined the empire. The planet was raped of its resources and the population mobilised in forced labour and herded into hive cities. And we all know what that does for life expectancy and happiness. And they were happy to join. Imagine, from a normal humans point of view what it was like if you resisted. Total war, orbital bombardment, siege warfare with disease and famine. Civilian casualties a plenty. And you say they killed soldiers like that’s fine but they invade places minding their own business and slaughtered their armies. That’s a war crime today never mind in the 31st millennium. If I are twenty then open your eyes to the fact that the stories, if they were true, would be horrific. Truly horrific. Then read up on the human cost of war. It’s equally horrific.
Being a conqueror is not inherently evil. Conquerors do good things and bad things.
The population was forced to do that? I cannot find that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And most conquerors are not like Hitler or Stalin.
What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.
Andykp wrote: What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.
No. Conquerors do good things and bad things (though definitely not as bad as Hitler or Stalin). They free people, and if peoples refuse to join, they conquer them.
Andykp wrote: What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.
No. Conquerors do good things and bad things (though definitely not as bad as Hitler or Stalin). They free people, and if peoples refuse to join, they conquer them.
And you don’t see how that last bit is a bad thing to do?
Automatically Appended Next Post: How many good things do you have to do to make up for genocide, hitler introduced motorways and the war moved technology on a lot which benefitted people a lot. Does that cancel out the holocaust?
The Romans brought all sorts to Britain but does that mean it was ok to murder the entire Druid religion on Anglesey?
Andykp wrote: What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.
No. Conquerors do good things and bad things (though definitely not as bad as Hitler or Stalin). They free people, and if peoples refuse to join, they conquer them.
No, the conquest is the goal of conquerors. Freedom isn't in any card a conqueror holds.
That would be a liberator.
Doesn't anyone else see a bit of the Wizard of Oz in the Emperor's story?
If you're an Imperial type, you see an all-powerful deity; if you're not you see a random dude hiding behind a load of deceptions, frantically pulling on levers.
This kind of nudging vagueness is key to the 40K background, IMO, 'cause it's perfectly possible and legitimate to argue either.
Andykp wrote: What are they like then? These benevolent conquering saints. If you take over someone’s home land by force and enforce your ways and ideals on them that is never good. The British empire didn’t really civilise all of its subjects, the people of India weren’t really pleased we had turned up to steal there money and resources, just like the Gauls and ancient Britton’s weren’t pleased to be taken over by the Romans, yes they had good buildings and law and order but people lost freedom. A lot like the Iraqi and afghan people were so pleased with US delivered freedom.
No. Conquerors do good things and bad things (though definitely not as bad as Hitler or Stalin). They free people, and if peoples refuse to join, they conquer them.
No, the conquest is the goal of conquerors. Freedom isn't in any card a conqueror holds.
That would be a liberator.
Onething, I think you really, really need to take a step back and try to get some perspective because some of the stuff you're claiming here is coming off as so naïve it's actually worrying. I'm not sure you're actually understanding even the quotes you're providing yourself, never mind the wider context of the Crusade and the Imperium in general. That Age of Darkness quote, for example, backs up the argument of your opponents. It shows the lengths the Crusade would go to in order to achieve compliance - utter butchery and savagery beyond what even another Primarch would contemplate, and these Primarchs have likely wiped out entire planets in various ways before. It's just like when you calimed the Emepror wasn't a hypocrite while simultaneously showing the evidence about his dealings with the AdMech that proved he was.
Beyond that, the Imperium was conceived and written as a dystopian society, and you can see the beginnings of that during the Crusade itself. The offhand, almost casual disdain and hatred for other cultures and the absolute ironclad belief the Crusading armies are liberators has clear parallels with other crusades in mankind's history. The idea that the end justifies the means isn't exactly held in high regard nowadays, and when the means at your disposal are on the scale of system-wide obliteration that rings true even more so than today.
In short, the Emperor is a tyrant and a despot, a slaughterer of trillions and responsible for the extinction of entire alien species. He's not a nice guy and he's not a good person. Of course, he has reasons why he does what he does but so do all tyrants. Very few, if any, of even the worst tyrants in human history did what they did "just because". They always have what they think are good reasons for what they do. The Emperor is no different, except in one crucial way: the scale of his genocide is several orders of magnitude greater than all the combined genocides and atrocities committed by humanity during it's current recorded history.
the thing about 40k you have to remember is, It's not intended to be admirable. Let's look closely for a moment at the "great shining beacon of enlightenment in the Imperium" Ultramar and Robute Gulliman, thing is, well we don't know a lot about it we do know eneugh to know that it's a military dictatorship, we also know that all engage in military education with a hope to becoming Ultramarines, and it's obvious they do it quite young.
Despite the idea of it being Romanesque, I suspect modern Ultramar is more similer to Sparta.
Not exactly a bastion of enlightened freedom.
Excommunicatus wrote: The entire Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state by any objective measure.
Nonsense. All people are happy in the Emperor's golden light, who shields them from the mutant, the xeno and the heretic. The Imperium does not need any totalitarianism or fascism or any other form of oppression, because the only people who would ever disagree with the Most Holy Emperor and his appointed officials are mutants or heretics who work unceasingly to bring down our beautiful Imperium and throw mankind into suffering and despair. Only mutants or heretics would therefore ever speak out against the Imperium. Are you a mutant or a heretic, citizen? No? Then get back to work! Quotas must be met!
Excommunicatus wrote: The entire Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state by any objective measure.
No its not. The Imperium is feudal.
Fascism has a very specific meaning and the Imperium utterly fails to meet it on account of being a semi-decentralized feudal federation allied with a sovereign power with numerous wholly independent subfactions within it which hold large sections of space with little to no direct oversight. Not only is all its territory structured in a feudal manner with lords and overlords passing taxes up the chain to the Administratum but it doesn't even have a unified economy, let alone a planned one. Which is one of the most important features of Fascism- everything is controlled by the state. The Imperium shares far more with Stalinism than it does Fascism, and even that is pushing it.
(Ironically for all of SB's "le deus vult" memes, the Imperium shares more with the Ottoman Empire considering its usage of slaves and taking children to be raised from youth as the greatest soldiers in the empire. And even having said child soldier caste rebelling multiple times.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: Onething, I think you really, really need to take a step back and try to get some perspective because some of the stuff you're claiming here is coming off as so naïve it's actually worrying. I'm not sure you're actually understanding even the quotes you're providing yourself, never mind the wider context of the Crusade and the Imperium in general. That Age of Darkness quote, for example, backs up the argument of your opponents. It shows the lengths the Crusade would go to in order to achieve compliance - utter butchery and savagery beyond what even another Primarch would contemplate, and these Primarchs have likely wiped out entire planets in various ways before. It's just like when you calimed the Emepror wasn't a hypocrite while simultaneously showing the evidence about his dealings with the AdMech that proved he was.
Beyond that, the Imperium was conceived and written as a dystopian society, and you can see the beginnings of that during the Crusade itself. The offhand, almost casual disdain and hatred for other cultures and the absolute ironclad belief the Crusading armies are liberators has clear parallels with other crusades in mankind's history. The idea that the end justifies the means isn't exactly held in high regard nowadays, and when the means at your disposal are on the scale of system-wide obliteration that rings true even more so than today.
In short, the Emperor is a tyrant and a despot, a slaughterer of trillions and responsible for the extinction of entire alien species. He's not a nice guy and he's not a good person. Of course, he has reasons why he does what he does but so do all tyrants. Very few, if any, of even the worst tyrants in human history did what they did "just because". They always have what they think are good reasons for what they do. The Emperor is no different, except in one crucial way: the scale of his genocide is several orders of magnitude greater than all the combined genocides and atrocities committed by humanity during it's current recorded history.
And almost all aliens during the Great Crusade were hostile. Horus mused about this in Horus Rising when he found the Interex. Horus mused that the Interex is the first time he had found alien co-existence. And there were other Legions with him.
And you have jack crap to prove the Emperor is a "tyrant and despot". Put up or shut up. I have only seen one link in anyway corroborating what you said, and its from the Forgeworld books.
The 41st millennium Imperium was meant to be a dystonian society.
The Emperor is incontrovetibly a tyrant. He could be considered to be justified within the parameters of the setting, but that does not stop him from being a tyrant. Bringing worlds into the Imperium by the sword is not benevolent for those peoples, even if it may be the only way humanity can survive in the long run. In addition, the Emperor is perfectly happy to let oppressive societies enter the Imperium, so long as they swear fealty and agree to the Imperial laws and tithe. He cares not how humanity lives, only that it survives at all. As an example, we know the League of Blackships was operating during the Great Crusade, which means it must have had the Emperor's consent to exist. It still collected thousands of psykers every day to feed to the Astronomican or force to work for the Imperium. If you are a human psyker, you are either food, a slave, or a hunted fugitive (a tiny number gain some agency as Inquisitors or Librarians and the like).
BrianDavion wrote:the thing about 40k you have to remember is, It's not intended to be admirable. Let's look closely for a moment at the "great shining beacon of enlightenment in the Imperium" Ultramar and Robute Gulliman, thing is, well we don't know a lot about it we do know eneugh to know that it's a military dictatorship, we also know that all engage in military education with a hope to becoming Ultramarines, and it's obvious they do it quite young. Despite the idea of it being Romanesque, I suspect modern Ultramar is more similer to Sparta. Not exactly a bastion of enlightened freedom.
Sparta is complex, and I'm not sure if it is the example you are really looking for. On the other hand, for Ultramar it may be accurate, in that there are some real liberties, yet also some very oppressive dark sides. As it happens, in many ways Sparta was much more egalitarian than Athens during the classical period (the most well known period). This is especially true for women.
Excommunicatus wrote:The entire Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state by any objective measure.
The Imperium is weird, it is largely feudal by necessity, but the overarching state is as fascist as it can be within the contraints of Imperial warp communications. Individual planets could be as egalitarian as they like within certain immutable Imperial laws (a governor, the Imperial tithe, the collection of psykers, a zero-tolerance policy for aliens and mutants etc.), but then they cannot choose to break these laws or leave without inviting bloody retribution. But otherwise, the governor could be democratically elected, for example.
Slipspace wrote:Onething, I think you really, really need to take a step back and try to get some perspective because some of the stuff you're claiming here is coming off as so naïve it's actually worrying. I'm not sure you're actually understanding even the quotes you're providing yourself, never mind the wider context of the Crusade and the Imperium in general. That Age of Darkness quote, for example, backs up the argument of your opponents. It shows the lengths the Crusade would go to in order to achieve compliance - utter butchery and savagery beyond what even another Primarch would contemplate, and these Primarchs have likely wiped out entire planets in various ways before. It's just like when you calimed the Emepror wasn't a hypocrite while simultaneously showing the evidence about his dealings with the AdMech that proved he was.
Beyond that, the Imperium was conceived and written as a dystopian society, and you can see the beginnings of that during the Crusade itself. The offhand, almost casual disdain and hatred for other cultures and the absolute ironclad belief the Crusading armies are liberators has clear parallels with other crusades in mankind's history. The idea that the end justifies the means isn't exactly held in high regard nowadays, and when the means at your disposal are on the scale of system-wide obliteration that rings true even more so than today.
In short, the Emperor is a tyrant and a despot, a slaughterer of trillions and responsible for the extinction of entire alien species. He's not a nice guy and he's not a good person. Of course, he has reasons why he does what he does but so do all tyrants. Very few, if any, of even the worst tyrants in human history did what they did "just because". They always have what they think are good reasons for what they do. The Emperor is no different, except in one crucial way: the scale of his genocide is several orders of magnitude greater than all the combined genocides and atrocities committed by humanity during it's current recorded history.
Exactly. The Imperium (and the entire 40k setting) is meant to be satirical of such methods. Part of the grimdarkness of the setting is they have actually engineered a scenario where the Imperium is truly terrible, yet is actually justified in much of its horrific acts by the even more terrible things that lurk out there in the darkness. Luckily, we don't have to worry about the possibility of a single, lost soul potentially spelling the doom of an entire world, or even solar system. Unfortunately, some people fall afoul of Poe's law, and do not see the point in that it takes such extreme threats to make the policies enacted by the Imperium seem in any way reasonable.
I'm aware Sparta is a complex place that has it's pros and cons, which makes it such a great comparison in some ways. the important part is that, by modern standards I doubt we'd want to live there.
One thing you say it’s feom a forgeworld book as if that is somehow not as significant as a black library book. This is wrong. I listed on one of your threads about this many examples of the emperor ordering or condoning genocide, enslaving people and deliberately killing off his own troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Onething, you will fail to be able to convince anyone on here the emperor is a good guy, because he’s not.
Andykp wrote: One thing you say it’s feom a forgeworld book as if that is somehow not as significant as a black library book. This is wrong. I listed on one of your threads about this many examples of the emperor ordering or condoning genocide, enslaving people and deliberately killing off his own troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Onething, you will fail to be able to convince anyone on here the emperor is a good guy, because he’s not.
No, you haven't. Out of all the things you linked, only one was in anyway proof.
Haighus wrote: The Emperor is incontrovetibly a tyrant. He could be considered to be justified within the parameters of the setting, but that does not stop him from being a tyrant. Bringing worlds into the Imperium by the sword is not benevolent for those peoples, even if it may be the only way humanity can survive in the long run. In addition, the Emperor is perfectly happy to let oppressive societies enter the Imperium, so long as they swear fealty and agree to the Imperial laws and tithe. He cares not how humanity lives, only that it survives at all. As an example, we know the League of Blackships was operating during the Great Crusade, which means it must have had the Emperor's consent to exist. It still collected thousands of psykers every day to feed to the Astronomican or force to work for the Imperium. If you are a human psyker, you are either food, a slave, or a hunted fugitive (a tiny number gain some agency as Inquisitors or Librarians and the like).
BrianDavion wrote:the thing about 40k you have to remember is, It's not intended to be admirable. Let's look closely for a moment at the "great shining beacon of enlightenment in the Imperium" Ultramar and Robute Gulliman, thing is, well we don't know a lot about it we do know eneugh to know that it's a military dictatorship, we also know that all engage in military education with a hope to becoming Ultramarines, and it's obvious they do it quite young.
Despite the idea of it being Romanesque, I suspect modern Ultramar is more similer to Sparta.
Not exactly a bastion of enlightened freedom.
Sparta is complex, and I'm not sure if it is the example you are really looking for. On the other hand, for Ultramar it may be accurate, in that there are some real liberties, yet also some very oppressive dark sides. As it happens, in many ways Sparta was much more egalitarian than Athens during the classical period (the most well known period). This is especially true for women.
Excommunicatus wrote:The entire Imperium is a totalitarian, fascist state by any objective measure.
The Imperium is weird, it is largely feudal by necessity, but the overarching state is as fascist as it can be within the contraints of Imperial warp communications. Individual planets could be as egalitarian as they like within certain immutable Imperial laws (a governor, the Imperial tithe, the collection of psykers, a zero-tolerance policy for aliens and mutants etc.), but then they cannot choose to break these laws or leave without inviting bloody retribution. But otherwise, the governor could be democratically elected, for example.
Slipspace wrote:Onething, I think you really, really need to take a step back and try to get some perspective because some of the stuff you're claiming here is coming off as so naïve it's actually worrying. I'm not sure you're actually understanding even the quotes you're providing yourself, never mind the wider context of the Crusade and the Imperium in general. That Age of Darkness quote, for example, backs up the argument of your opponents. It shows the lengths the Crusade would go to in order to achieve compliance - utter butchery and savagery beyond what even another Primarch would contemplate, and these Primarchs have likely wiped out entire planets in various ways before. It's just like when you calimed the Emepror wasn't a hypocrite while simultaneously showing the evidence about his dealings with the AdMech that proved he was.
Beyond that, the Imperium was conceived and written as a dystopian society, and you can see the beginnings of that during the Crusade itself. The offhand, almost casual disdain and hatred for other cultures and the absolute ironclad belief the Crusading armies are liberators has clear parallels with other crusades in mankind's history. The idea that the end justifies the means isn't exactly held in high regard nowadays, and when the means at your disposal are on the scale of system-wide obliteration that rings true even more so than today.
In short, the Emperor is a tyrant and a despot, a slaughterer of trillions and responsible for the extinction of entire alien species. He's not a nice guy and he's not a good person. Of course, he has reasons why he does what he does but so do all tyrants. Very few, if any, of even the worst tyrants in human history did what they did "just because". They always have what they think are good reasons for what they do. The Emperor is no different, except in one crucial way: the scale of his genocide is several orders of magnitude greater than all the combined genocides and atrocities committed by humanity during it's current recorded history.
Exactly. The Imperium (and the entire 40k setting) is meant to be satirical of such methods. Part of the grimdarkness of the setting is they have actually engineered a scenario where the Imperium is truly terrible, yet is actually justified in much of its horrific acts by the even more terrible things that lurk out there in the darkness. Luckily, we don't have to worry about the possibility of a single, lost soul potentially spelling the doom of an entire world, or even solar system. Unfortunately, some people fall afoul of Poe's law, and do not see the point in that it takes such extreme threats to make the policies enacted by the Imperium seem in any way reasonable.
I am, hearing a lot of talk, but absolutely no proof in the least for what you say. Post proof, or I call you out. The quote below shows the Great Crusade had moral boundaries.
"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face."Pg.32 Age of Darkness
What oppressive societies? The Imperial Knight's misogyny?
Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
The Rangdan Xenocides were hostile aliens. Get your facts straight.
Horus was talkig with the Interex, and Erebus ruined it by stealing a Chaos artifact from the Interex.
The Technocracy was destroyed by Chaos corrupted Horus.
Compliance of Kharaatan: "Curze oversaw many atrocities against civilian populations during the war to create terror. After the Night Lords massacred the population of an entire city, he came into conflict with Vulkan, who reported him to Warmaster Horus and Rogal Dorn
Vulkan reported him.
A lot of what you said is out context. And guess what? The Council of Terra on page 28 in the Fulgrim book thought about making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (and Fulgrim rejected because they hdle their beleifs to be comparable to humanity's ,not because they were aliens.
"In the aftermath of the massacre the Emperor was forced to act and called Angron before him for reprimand..."
Most of what you said is out of context.
I count at least five, and I'm still reading.
Horus Rising said:
'You have no choice!' Abaddon snarled. 'We have seen enough already to know that their ways are in opposition to ours! You must-'
'Must?' Horus roared. 'Must I? You are Mournival, Abaddon! You advise and you counsel, and that is your place! Do not imagine you can tell me what to do!'
'I don't have to! There is no choice, and you know what must be done!'
'Get out!'
'You know it in your heart!'
'Get out!' Horus yelled, and cast aside his drinking cup with such force that it shattered on the steel deck. He glared at Abaddon, teeth clenched. 'Get out, Ezekyle, before I look to find another first captain!'
[...]
Aximand cleared his throat. 'Ezekyle had... a point,' he began. He stiffened as he saw the Warmaster raise his eyebrows.
'Go on, little one.'
'We... that is to say... we prosecute this crusade according to certain doctrines. For two centuries, we have done so. Laws of life, laws on which the Imperium is founded. They are not arbitrary. They were given to us, to uphold, by the Emperor himself.'
'Beloved of all,' Horus said.
'The Emperor's doctrines have guided us since the start. We have never disobeyed them.' Aximand paused, then added, 'Before.'
'You think this is disobedience, little one?' Horus asked. Aximand shrugged. 'What about you, Garviel?' Horus asked. 'Are you with Aximand on this?'
Loken looked back into the Warmaster's eyes. 'I know why we ought to make war upon the interex, sir,' he said. 'What interests me is why you think we shouldn't.'
Horus smiled. 'At last, a thinking man.' He rose to his feet and, carrying his cup carefully, walked across to the right-hand wall of the stateroom, a section of which had been richly decorated with a mural. The painting showed the Emperor, ascendant above all, catching the spinning constellations in his outstretched hand. 'The stars,' Horus said. 'See, there? How he scoops them up? The zodiacs swirl into his grasp like fireflies. The stars are mankind's birthright. That's what he told me. That's one of the first things he told me when we met. I was like a child then, raised up from nothing. He set me at his side, and pointed to the heavens. Those points of light, he said, are what we have been waiting generations to master. Imagine, Horus, every one a human culture, every one a realm of beauty and magnificence, free from strife, free from war, free from bloodshed and the tyrannous oppression of alien overlords. Make no mistake, he said, and they will be ours.'
Horus slowly traced his fingers across the whorl of painted stars until his hand met the image of the Emperor's hand. He took his touch away and looked back at Aximand and Loken.
[...]
'I'll tell you a thing,' said Horus, walking back to them and resuming his seat. 'The first thing my father gave me was an astrological text. It was a simple thing, a child's primer. I have it here somewhere. He noted my wonder at the stars, and wished me to learn and understand.'
He paused. Loken was also captivated whenever Horus began to refer to the Emperor as 'my father'. It had happened a few times since Loken had been part of his inner circle, and on every occasion it had led to unguarded revelations.
There were zodiac charts in it. In the text.’ Horus took a sip of his wine and smiled at the memory. 'I learned them all. In one evening. Not just the names, but the patterns, the associations, the structure. All twenty signs. The next day, my father laughed at my appetite for knowledge. He told me the zodiac signs were old and unreliable models, now that the explorator fleets had begun detailed cosmological mapping. He told me that the twenty signs in the heavens would one day be matched by twenty sons like me. Each son would embody the character and notion of a particular zodiac group. He asked me which one I liked the best.’ 'What did you answer?' Loken asked. Horus sat back, and chuckled. 'I told him I liked all the patterns they made. I told him I was glad to finally have names for the sparks of light in the sky. I told him I liked Leos, naturally for his regal fury and Skorpos, for his armour and warlike blade. I told him that Tauromach appealed to my sense of stubbornness, and Arbitos to my sense of fairness and balance.’ The Warmaster shook his head, sadly. 'My father said he admired my choices, but was surprised I had not picked another in particular. He showed me again the horseman with the bow, the galloping warrior. The dreadful Sagittary, he said. Most warlike of all. Strong, relentless, unbridled, swift and sure of his mark. In ancient times, he told me, this was the greatest sign of all. The centaur, the horse-man, the hunter-warrior, had been beloved in the old ages. In Anatoly in his own childhood, the centaur had been a revered symbol. A rider upon a horse, so he said, armed with a bow. The most potent martial instrument of its age, conquering all before it. Over time, myth had blended horseman and steed into one form. The perfect synthesis of man and war machine. That is what you must learn to be, he told me. That is what you must master. One day, you must command my armies, my instruments of war, as if they were an extension of your own person. Man and horse, as one, galloping the heavens, submitting to no foe. At Ullanor, he gave me this.’
Horus set down his cup, and leaned forward to show them the weathered gold ring he wore on the smallest finger of his left hand. It was so eroded by age that the image was indistinct. Loken thought he could detect hooves, a man's arm, a bent bow.
'It was made in Persia, the year before the Emperor was born. The dreadful Sagittary. This is you now, he said to me. My Warmaster, my centaur. Half man, half army embedded in the Legions of the Imperium. Where you turn, so the Legions turn. Where you move, so they move. Where you strike, so they strike. Ride on without me, my son, and the armies will ride with you.’ There was a long silence. 'So you see.’ Horus smiled. 'I am predisposed to like the dreadful Sagittary, now we meet him, face to face.’
His smile was infectious. Both Loken and Aximand nodded and laughed. 'Now tell them the real reason.’ a voice said. They turned. Sanguineus stood in an archway at the far end of the chamber, behind a veil of white silk. He had been listening. The Lord of Angels brushed the silk hanging aside, and stepped into the stateroom, the crests of his wings brushing the glossy material. He was dressed in a simple white robe, clasped at the waist with a girdle of gold links. He was eating fruit from a bowl. Loken and Aximand stood up quickly. 'Sit down.’ Sanguinius said. 'My brother's in the mood to open his heart, so you had better hear the truth.’
'I don't believe-' Horus began. Sanguinius scooped one of the small, red fruits from his bowl and threw it at Horus.
Tell them the rest.’ he sniggered.
Horus caught the thrown fruit, gazed at it, then bit into it. He wiped the juice off his chin with the back of his hand and looked across at Loken and Aximand.
'Remember the start of my story?' he asked. What the Emperor said to me about the stars? Make no mistake, and they will be ours!
He took another two bites, threw the fruit stone away, and swallowed the flesh before he continued. 'Sanguinius, my dear brother, is right, for Sanguinius has always been my conscience.’
Sanguinius shrugged, an odd gesture for a giant with furled wings.
'Make no mistake' Horus continued. Those three words. Make no mistake. I am Warmaster, by the Emperor's decree. I cannot fail him. I cannot make mistakes.’
'Sir?' Aximand ventured.
'Since Ullanor, little one, I have made two. Or been party to two, and that is enough, for the responsibility for all expedition mistakes falls to me in the final count.’
What mistakes?' asked Loken.
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
'I don't believe he would.’ Aximand said.
Then there's Murder.’ Horus continued, ignoring Little Horus's remark. 'Or Spiderland, as the interex has it. What is the way of their name for it again?'
'Urisarach.’ Sanguinius said, helpfully. 'Though I think the word only works with the appropriate harmonic accompaniment.’
'Spiderland will suffice, then.’ said Horus. 'What did we waste there? What misunderstandings did we make? The interex left us warnings to stay away, and we ignored them. An embargoed world, an asylum for the creatures they had bested in war, and we walked straight in.’
'We weren't to know.’ Sanguinius said.
'We should have known!' Horus snapped.
'Therein lies the difference between our philosophy and that of the interex.’ Aximand said. "We cannot endure the existence of a malign alien race. They subjugate it, but refrain from annihilating it. Instead, they deprive it of space travel and exile it to a prison world.'
'We annihilate.' said Horus. 'They find a means around such drastic measures. Which of us is the most humane?'
Aximand rose to his feet. 'I find myself with Ezekyle on this. Tolerance is weakness. The interex is admirable, but it is forgiving and generous in its dealings with xenos breeds who deserve no quarter.’
'It has brought them to book, and learned to live in sympathy.’ said Horus. 'It has trained the kinebrach to-'
'And that's the best example I can offer!' Aximand replied. The kinebrach. It embraces them as part of its culture.’
'I will not make another rash or premature decision.’ Horus stated flatly. 'I have made too many, and my War-mastery is threatened by my mistakes. I will understand the interex, and learn from it, and parlay with it, and only then will I decide if it has strayed too far. They are a fine people. Perhaps we can learn from them for a change.’
Onething, just quote blocking stuff does not constitute actual evidence or an argument and frankly it just smacks of disrespect. You don't even try to refute their points, and you're just going in circles now with what you're repeating.
Onething, if you were a general and you actively knew that you had subordinates committing war crimes like rape and killing PoW's, doing nothing but giving lip service of stopping them like just telling them to stop, rather than court martial-ling them, would you say you're still not guilty of being complicit in their crimes as well?
Grimskul wrote: Onething, just quote blocking stuff does not constitute actual evidence or an argument and frankly it just smacks of disrespect. You don't even try to refute their points, and you're just going in circles now with what you're repeating.
Onething, if you were a general and you actively knew that you had subordinates committing war crimes like rape and killing PoW's, doing nothing but giving lip service of stopping them like just telling them to stop, rather than court martial-ling them, would you say you're still not guilty of being complicit in their crimes as well?
Alright. I would feel better if we let this subject die.
Horus and Abaddon in Horus Rising muse that the Interex is the first time they have seen alien co-existence. And this was near the end of the Crusade.
And Rangdan Xenocides is an outright lie by that one guy I am talking to, because they were highly dangerous and hostile aliens invading the Imperium.
To the rangdan the emperor and the crusade were highly dangerous aliens invading their space and exterminating them.
You haven’t mentioned the death guard killing millions of men women and CHILDREN. Or the attack on Luna killing lots of weird humans because he wanted their tech. And the fact you don’t seem to get is, if your army is committing genocide, a reprimand isn’t enough to absolve u. U are plain wiring on all counts. I’m not a fan of right mad wrong in 40k fluff but thinking that the emperor was a good guy is naive in the upmost. Because he “liberated” people doesn’t make him a goody. It just makes him the guy choosing the word, liberate over occupy free over enslave.
Planet 63-19 is another example you ignore. Peaceful happy human civilisation exactly like the one they were trying to impose. It resisted. Slaughter ensued. Saying the emperor is good is like saying hitler is. Not because of his politics but hitler believed he had the German people’s best interests at heart just the emperor believes he has humanities at heart and woe betide anyone who disagrees.
Andykp wrote: To the rangdan the emperor and the crusade were highly dangerous aliens invading their space and exterminating them.
You haven’t mentioned the death guard killing millions of men women and CHILDREN. Or the attack on Luna killing lots of weird humans because he wanted their tech. And the fact you don’t seem to get is, if your army is committing genocide, a reprimand isn’t enough to absolve u. U are plain wiring on all counts. I’m not a fan of right mad wrong in 40k fluff but thinking that the emperor was a good guy is naive in the upmost. Because he “liberated” people doesn’t make him a goody. It just makes him the guy choosing the word, liberate over occupy free over enslave.
Planet 63-19 is another example you ignore. Peaceful happy human civilisation exactly like the one they were trying to impose. It resisted. Slaughter ensued. Saying the emperor is good is like saying hitler is. Not because of his politics but hitler believed he had the German people’s best interests at heart just the emperor believes he has humanities at heart and woe betide anyone who disagrees.
For, Luna, it was conquest. And its not lie everyone was slaughtered.
And Mortarian is one of the more brutal Primarchs. But I will have to research more into it.
You are so amusing. 63-19 was conquered, not destroyed. And it was the fake Imperium that thought it was the real Terra, ruled by a fake Emperor.
Here is a quote from Horus Rising below. It was Horus' own error on dealing with 63-19 in the way he did (and civilians were not slaughtered. They just slaughtered the false Emperor and took control)
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
Automatically Appended Next Post: 63-19 was Horus' own error, and Horus thought the Emperor would have found a peaceful solution.
U dismissed conquering things as if it is a good thing. Invading and conquering are in them selves war crimes. Could he not have bargained with them. Used diplomacy. No. He asked, they so no so killed thousands of them.
The death guard being brutal is irrelevant, they were loyal at the time and the emperor knew what they did. He was complicit in their every action.
63-19 considered their emperor the true one. Their planet the true terra. It all about perspective. They were happily minding their own business and were invaded. I never said destroyed but millions will have died in months of “pacification”. It was an unjustifiable act.
And in another post you didn’t respond to how your not so genocidal emperor applauded the ultramarines for nuking millions of innocent civilians. Please tell me how that was for their own good. It’s incredible that across three threads and all manner of people telling you u are wrong but still insist that it’s ok to go round “conquering” places and killing people. U answer the same two points each time with the same quotes that prove nothing.
Andykp wrote: U dismissed conquering things as if it is a good thing. Invading and conquering are in them selves war crimes. Could he not have bargained with them. Used diplomacy. No. He asked, they so no so killed thousands of them.
The death guard being brutal is irrelevant, they were loyal at the time and the emperor knew what they did. He was complicit in their every action.
63-19 considered their emperor the true one. Their planet the true terra. It all about perspective. They were happily minding their own business and were invaded. I never said destroyed but millions will have died in months of “pacification”. It was an unjustifiable act.
And in another post you didn’t respond to how your not so genocidal emperor applauded the ultramarines for nuking millions of innocent civilians. Please tell me how that was for their own good. It’s incredible that across three threads and all manner of people telling you u are wrong but still insist that it’s ok to go round “conquering” places and killing people. U answer the same two points each time with the same quotes that prove nothing.
The Emperor not only had nothing tom do with 63-19, but Horus thought the Emperor would have dealt with 63-19 peacefully.
I will have to research more about the Mortarian incident.
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
What I seem to be missing is that the great crusade did not need to happen. Many people were just fine without it. They could have tried to co exist with aliens and allow other cultures. The whole venture was totalitarian despotism and mass mass murder.
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
I have. But try to use your empathy a bit. What was the “fake” emperor doing that meant he needed killing along with all the others that he talks about there.
This is important here. Killing people because they disagree with you is wrong. Killing millions of people because of it is really really wrong. I don’t know how to say it any simpler than that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any action carried out under the great crusade is the emperors fault. That is how being a despot works. No one else to blame but you.
'Mistakes. Misunderstandings.’ Horus stroked his hand across his brow. 'Sixty-Three Nineteen. Our first endeavour. My first as Warmaster. How much blood was spilt there, blood from misunderstanding? We misread the signs and paid the price. Poor, dear Sejanus. I miss him still. That whole war, even that nightmare up on the mountains you had to endure, Garviel... a mistake. I could have handled it differendy. Sixty-Three Nineteen could have been brought to compliance without bloodshed.’
'No, sir.’ said Loken emphatically. They were too set in their ways, and their ways were set against us. We could not have made them compliant without a war.’
Horus shook his head. You are kind, Garviel, but you are mistaken. There were ways. There should have been ways. I should have been able to sway that civilisation without a shot being fired. The Emperor would have done so.’
I have. But try to use your empathy a bit. What was the “fake” emperor doing that meant he needed killing along with all the others that he talks about there.
This is important here. Killing people because they disagree with you is wrong. Killing millions of people because of it is really really wrong. I don’t know how to say it any simpler than that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any action carried out under the great crusade is the emperors fault. That is how being a despot works. No one else to blame but you.
No civilians were slaughtered at 63-19. But Horus admitted it was an error on his part.
0 civilians? In the bombardments and spaceships falling from the sky and the big siege in the mountains. Balls.
Also if you invade another country and kill its soldiers that’s still not ok. They are still people. They didn’t deserve to die because you disagreed with them.
Andykp wrote: 0 civilians? In the bombardments and spaceships falling from the sky and the big siege in the mountains. Balls.
Also if you invade another country and kill its soldiers that’s still not ok. They are still people. They didn’t deserve to die because you disagreed with them.
That's war. The U.S went to Iraq and slaughtered Iraqi soldiers. Is it right to kill people? No, but its war to kill enemy soldiers.
Andykp wrote: 0 civilians? In the bombardments and spaceships falling from the sky and the big siege in the mountains. Balls.
Also if you invade another country and kill its soldiers that’s still not ok. They are still people. They didn’t deserve to die because you disagreed with them.
That's war. The U.S went to Iraq and slaughtered Iraqi soldiers. Is it right to kill people? No, but its war to kill enemy soldiers.
And that war was illegal too. Deciding on your enemies is the point here. Do you think the Iraqi soldiers family think the US was right in killing their children?
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
Am I sure about what? That if a General knowingly allowed a subordinate commit war crimes would also be held responsible for those crimes? Yes I am sure about. At this point I feel like this isn't a discussion, your ignoring key evidence that blows holes in your theory, and don't seem seem to grasp that not everything is going to explicitly spelled out in a quote.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
Am I sure about what? That if a General knowingly allowed a subordinate commit war crimes would also be held responsible for those crimes? Yes I am sure about. At this point I feel like this isn't a discussion, your ignoring key evidence that blows holes in your theory, and don't seem seem to grasp that not everything is going to explicitly spelled out in a quote.
Almost half of those examples were out of context or not done directly by the Imperium.
Can we stop this subject soon? Preferably right now?
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
Am I sure about what? That if a General knowingly allowed a subordinate commit war crimes would also be held responsible for those crimes? Yes I am sure about. At this point I feel like this isn't a discussion, your ignoring key evidence that blows holes in your theory, and don't seem seem to grasp that not everything is going to explicitly spelled out in a quote.
Almost half of those examples were out of context or not done directly by the Imperium.
Can we stop this subject soon? Preferably right now?
I'll be honest, I'd prefer we see it through rather than you running away again and starting another tangential thread about what we discussed here. Don't dish out what you can't receive, there's nothing wrong with admitting that you might have been overzealous in your opinion of the Imperium/Emperor.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Dude, your argument has been refuted by multiple posters, including myself. Angron and other primarchs went to far all the time by both modern and 30k standards. All you keep citing is that the Emperor gave a him a weak verbal rebuke. You don't seem to get how responsibility for your subordinates actions work. If I'm a general and I know that my underling is committing warcrimes and take no active steps to remove him from command or stop him then I'm just as guilty and responsible. I don't understand why you don't seem to grasp this.
Are you sure?
Am I sure about what? That if a General knowingly allowed a subordinate commit war crimes would also be held responsible for those crimes? Yes I am sure about. At this point I feel like this isn't a discussion, your ignoring key evidence that blows holes in your theory, and don't seem seem to grasp that not everything is going to explicitly spelled out in a quote.
Almost half of those examples were out of context or not done directly by the Imperium.
Can we stop this subject soon? Preferably right now?
I'll be honest, I'd prefer we see it through rather than you running away again and starting another tangential thread about what we discussed here. Don't dish out what you can't receive, there's nothing wrong with admitting that you might have been overzealous in your opinion of the Imperium/Emperor.
I was not saying the Emperor or the Imperium were perfect. (I know the Imperium in 40k sucks) I was saying I think a lot of what I heard is exaggerated after reading close to half of the Horus Heresy books (about 20) myself. And most of those quotes I saw were from Forgeworld. But I get the point.
Oh, I'm not going to start another thread about this. There is barely anything else I can think of related to this.
Dude, there's nothing wrong with admitting to being wrong. BTW your quiote has Horus saying the emperor would have been able to find another solution to 63-19, but NO ONE ELSE seems to think that, consider just a moment that Horus was I dunno.. just being too hard on himself?
BrianDavion wrote: Dude, there's nothing wrong with admitting to being wrong. BTW your quiote has Horus saying the emperor would have been able to find another solution to 63-19, but NO ONE ELSE seems to think that, consider just a moment that Horus was I dunno.. just being too hard on himself?
He could very well be wrong. Or maybe he is biased? Horus was raised by the Emperor when he was just a child. So its obvious he will think highly of the Emperor as a good guy.
BrianDavion wrote: Dude, there's nothing wrong with admitting to being wrong. BTW your quiote has Horus saying the emperor would have been able to find another solution to 63-19, but NO ONE ELSE seems to think that, consider just a moment that Horus was I dunno.. just being too hard on himself?
He could very well be wrong. Or maybe he is biased? Horus was raised by the Emperor when he was just a child. So its obvious he will think highly of the Emperor as a good guy.
sure, people tend to have a unrealisticly high opinion of their fathers often. I suspect Horus had that of the Emperor, it actually explains his fall a little more.. When someone has a.. overly high opinion of a parental figure having that view shattered can produce a suprising amount of hostility
BrianDavion wrote: Dude, there's nothing wrong with admitting to being wrong. BTW your quiote has Horus saying the emperor would have been able to find another solution to 63-19, but NO ONE ELSE seems to think that, consider just a moment that Horus was I dunno.. just being too hard on himself?
He could very well be wrong. Or maybe he is biased? Horus was raised by the Emperor when he was just a child. So its obvious he will think highly of the Emperor as a good guy.
sure, people tend to have a unrealisticly high opinion of their fathers often. I suspect Horus had that of the Emperor, it actually explains his fall a little more.. When someone has a.. overly high opinion of a parental figure having that view shattered can produce a suprising amount of hostility
And even if the Emperor would have accepted the Interex and its alien allies into the Imperium, he would have destroyed them for knowing about Chaos. The Laer do indicate that the Imperium was not completely against aliens, but lets say the Emperor would be alright with the Laer as a protectorate. He still would have had the Laer destroyed for being Chaos followers if nothing else.
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
In Bill King's version (definitive from 1990 until whenever Horus Heresy Collected Visions was published), it was an Imperial Fists terminator, and that story was told from the Emperor's point of view.
Suddenly the battering stops. Through his good eye the Emperor sees a solitary Terminator has entered the room. The Marine charges towards the Warmaster, stormbolter blazing. Horus looks at him and laughs. For a moment he stands triumphant, allowing the Marine to see what he has done to his Emperor.
The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury.
Horus turns his burning gaze on the Terminator and the Marine's flesh flakes away to reveal his skeleton, then even that is gone, reduced to dust.
The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.
I am, hearing a lot of talk, but absolutely no proof in the least for what you say. Post proof, or I call you out. The quote below shows the Great Crusade had moral boundaries.
"Never afraid of extreme measures, Angron had let slip his World Eaters in the most vicious way imaginable. Remus had once heard his primarch say that Angron’s Legion could succeed where all others would fail because the Red Angel was willing to go further than any other Legion, to countenance behaviour that any civilised code of war would deem abhorrent. Seeing what had been done to Prandium, Remus understood completely. This was no honourable war, this was butchery and destruction embodied. The primarch’s great work could surely never have contemplated war with so terrible a face."Pg.32 Age of Darkness
Posting masses of quotes over and over again does not an argument make. You seem to think just adding quotes from novels to the discussion is somehow proving your point. Either you haven't read the quote above, or you don't understand it. It shows the opposite of your point. The fact you don't seem to see that probably explains the rest of your opinions. Can you explain why the quote above proves your point that the Crusade had moral boundaries, referencing only the content of the quote?
BrianDavion wrote: I've said it a million times before, but the story of Ollinious Pius never made any sense. Horus butchers countless worlds, kills god knows how many people, Virus boimbs his own troops. slaughters Sanguinius...
and we';re supposed to belive it's only when tossing aside some guardsman whose in the way, that the emperor goes "gee guess he is irredemable!"
We're not supposed to believe it, the Guardsmen sitting in the trenches the night before a big battle are supposed to believe it to give them courage. Whether or not it actually happened doesn't matter. The belief that it happened is all that matters to those Guardsmen getting ready for battle the next day.
In Bill King's version (definitive from 1990 until whenever Horus Heresy Collected Visions was published), it was an Imperial Fists terminator, and that story was told from the Emperor's point of view.
Suddenly the battering stops. Through his good eye the Emperor sees a solitary Terminator has entered the room. The Marine charges towards the Warmaster, stormbolter blazing. Horus looks at him and laughs. For a moment he stands triumphant, allowing the Marine to see what he has done to his Emperor.
The Emperor knows what is going to happen next, sees the gloating triumph on Horus' face. There is no trace of his friend left there. There is only a daemon driven by insane destructive fury.
Horus turns his burning gaze on the Terminator and the Marine's flesh flakes away to reveal his skeleton, then even that is gone, reduced to dust.
The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who had been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.
Yep, I always liked the idea that it was one of those legends that have different versions based on who is telling it. The Guard have their own version they tell to give them courage, and the Marines have their own version, as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the AdMech have their own version.
I look forward to when we get to that point in the books and get the definitive version, and I hope it somehow ends up being something nobody expects.
Karhedron wrote: One of the jobs of the Order of Sigilites is to preserve history. In one of the HH short stories, a group of Malcador's agents retrieve a sealed container from some Chaos worshipers. Opening it, the leader is angry to discover it is just a lump of rock and nearly jettisons it but eventually follows his orders to bring it back to Terra. Malcador then explains that it is the Rosetta stone and explains some of its significance.
So there are people who still are interested in ancient history but they are a small and academic minority with little relevance to day-to-day Imperial Citizens. We know Malcador does not survive the Siege but we don't know if the order of Sigilites carried on.
Do you know where I can read that book?
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: In Dark Imperium Guilliman tries to build a library about the knowledge of the last 10000 years and realizes that a lot has been lost due to imperial dogma.
And that's "just" from 30K to 40K. They barely seem to know about the Beast.
Information about earth in 2K would be very unlikely. Today we only have recovered 2% of the written texts of antiquity, and we are only 2000 years away. And even though real world's christianity did a good job of purging (or simply not copying) everything they didn't like they weren't as bad as 40Ks ecclesiarchy.
Karhedron wrote: One of the jobs of the Order of Sigilites is to preserve history. In one of the HH short stories, a group of Malcador's agents retrieve a sealed container from some Chaos worshipers. Opening it, the leader is angry to discover it is just a lump of rock and nearly jettisons it but eventually follows his orders to bring it back to Terra. Malcador then explains that it is the Rosetta stone and explains some of its significance.
So there are people who still are interested in ancient history but they are a small and academic minority with little relevance to day-to-day Imperial Citizens. We know Malcador does not survive the Siege but we don't know if the order of Sigilites carried on.
Karhedron wrote: One of the jobs of the Order of Sigilites is to preserve history. In one of the HH short stories, a group of Malcador's agents retrieve a sealed container from some Chaos worshipers. Opening it, the leader is angry to discover it is just a lump of rock and nearly jettisons it but eventually follows his orders to bring it back to Terra. Malcador then explains that it is the Rosetta stone and explains some of its significance.
So there are people who still are interested in ancient history but they are a small and academic minority with little relevance to day-to-day Imperial Citizens. We know Malcador does not survive the Siege but we don't know if the order of Sigilites carried on.
And I know that Perpetual Oll Persson is hated by a lot, but I love him. But I like Damon Prytanis better since he is more realistic in his personality after seeing all the nonsense humanity has done to itself over thousands of years.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I look forward to when we get to that point in the books and get the definitive version, and I hope it somehow ends up being something nobody expects.
My money is on Oll being the one who mortally wounds the Emperor and dooms him to eternity in the Golden Throne. After the Emperor obliterates Horus without a second's hesitation, thus proving (in Oll's eyes) that the Emperor was the setting's 'real' Big Bad all along. I think that's what the conversation outside Nineveh is setting up.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I look forward to when we get to that point in the books and get the definitive version, and I hope it somehow ends up being something nobody expects.
My money is on Oll being the one who mortally wounds the Emperor and dooms him to eternity in the Golden Throne. After the Emperor obliterates Horus without a second's hesitation, thus proving (in Oll's eyes) that the Emperor was the setting's 'real' Big Bad all along. I think that's what the conversation outside Nineveh is setting up.
Its definitely going to be similar to the first story of Horus being the bad guy.
Of course Horus is bad. I'm speculating that Oll ends up thinking the Emperor is even worse. The idea is that the character whose name is basically 'Mr Eternal Everyman' is in a sense the readers' avatar/stand-in, and most BL novel readers seem to have concluded that the Emperor is a monster. Either this is colossally bad writing, or it is intentional.
I actually like that theory. It's pretty clear that the original story doesn't fit how the emperor has been characterized thus far, necessitating change.
Duskweaver wrote: Of course Horus is bad. I'm speculating that Oll ends up thinking the Emperor is even worse. The idea is that the character whose name is basically 'Mr Eternal Everyman' is in a sense the readers' avatar/stand-in, and most BL novel readers seem to have concluded that the Emperor is a monster. Either this is colossally bad writing, or it is intentional.
I'm horribly off topic, though, I admit.
The Emperor is a "good guy" for humanity, even though he is not that much different from Alexander, Caeser and so on.
Probably bad writing? I would not have fallen for Erebus' trickery to Horus even when I was thirteen. Horus' fall was badly written.
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Just because something was in a FW book does not cheapen or lessen it's value, if anything those are a better source than the mess that is Black Libraries HH series at this point.
I could see Oll Persson deciding that after all the blood shed during the rise of the Emperor, the Crusades and then the Heresy might cause him to snap when he realizes the Emperor is just going to start all over again.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Just because something was in a FW book does not cheapen or lessen it's value, if anything those are a better source than the mess that is Black Libraries HH series at this point.
I could see Oll Persson deciding that after all the blood shed during the rise of the Emperor, the Crusades and then the Heresy might cause him to snap when he realizes the Emperor is just going to start all over again.
HoundsofDemos wrote: Just because something was in a FW book does not cheapen or lessen it's value, if anything those are a better source than the mess that is Black Libraries HH series at this point.
I could see Oll Persson deciding that after all the blood shed during the rise of the Emperor, the Crusades and then the Heresy might cause him to snap when he realizes the Emperor is just going to start all over again.
Trust me, Chaos is worse than the Emperor.
Onto the topic of this thread, ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT. So why so some people say the Emperor might be DAOT and that ADB said this in Master of Mankind's afterword when my link to my talk with ADB says otherwise? If ADB says the Emperor is probably not DAOT tech, then I do not think he would have said otherwise in the afterword for Master of Mankind.
I think someone else has raised this point, but a lot of your responses are just vapid one liners or posting block quotes with no additional context and not actually responding to what people are posting. No were in my post did I imply that the Emperor is worse than Chaos. He is however a violent, uncompromising dictator. It's not a a stretch that a person would take to chance to kill him after seeing how many people he killed and how bad of shape he left the galaxy in.
I know, but we were getting off topic. And I'll say this one last time, all of those examples of the Emperor destroying planets that I saw came from the Forgeworld books, and I read about 20 Horus Heresy books and he did not seem so bad from my reading.
So enough of that. My talk with ADB and the link is what I wanted to bring up again.
My link more or less proves the Emperor is probably not from the DAOT.
And so what? Since no one except you is making that claim (and only in the link you posted, where ADB has to explicitly explain the difference between himself and a character in a novel), I'm completely at a loss as to who you're arguing with, what purpose it serves or why you need two threads on it.
Let alone wanting to toss out 9 pages of discussion in each thread and bringing it all the way back to the starting point, pretending none of it ever happened.
Just because chaos is worse than the emperor doesn’t mean that a person might not be justly horrified at the idea of the Emperor being the immortal figurehead of humanity for the foreseeable future, especially after the brutal and sometimes genocidal conquests of the Great Crusade.
Just because chaos is worse than the emperor doesn’t mean that a person might not be justly horrified at the idea of the Emperor being the immortal figurehead of humanity for the foreseeable future, especially after the brutal and sometimes genocidal conquests of the Great Crusade.
Not to the point of being such a moron that you'd kill the Emperor and remove the only thing serving as effective protection against the forces of Chaos.
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
He didn’t set up camps, like that makes them completely different, as you say that’s just one thing. They are in many ways the same/similar in their conquering.
Many times you’ve said ‘conquering’ isn’t evil. But inherently it is. Whether you’re doing it for what you perceive is best for people or not.
You keep saying ‘but they are from Forge World books’ but they are still valid, I’m guessing it’s just because you’ve not read them?
And you’ve said you have read up to 20 books, but are trying to come off as the most knowledgeable of the lore, but that’s less than half the books, so just remember some people are more steeped in lore from these books and have been reading for many many more years etc..
I just think you’re not really reading the other posters arguments properly, and making picking out a couple of words/sentences to argue against, or quote something vaguely close to it as a reply.
I can see where you are coming from, but I think you’ve read one point of view and straight away took that as truth, irrelevant of what else there may be, so anything coming up after then must be untruth.
Just an alternate way to consider your posting.
Just for everyone else, from looking at all his threads it made me think of it;
Onething’s post layouts and repetition comes across very similar to someone I know with mild autism, which have repetition of points and sentences, and the overuse of certain phrases in a description (1st Edition Rogue Trader for example or the ‘ADB said we can safely say the Emperor is not from the DAOT).
Now this is no slight or dig at Onething, and I’m not saying anything about him personally here, or that it is the case with him specifically, as people can type/talk that way whether they do or not (so don’t want to cause you offence Onething here, and I can remove this part of my post if you’d like - so let me know)
But.. everyone needs to be aware of the fact they don’t know who is on the other side of the screen as it were. Whether irrelevant in this topic or not (I’ve seen similar in many other posters from lots of topics and forums in general, I just notice people get their backs up quick a lot of the time, and wanted to mention it.
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Setting up concentration camps is not a requirement to be viewed as a tyrant. As Insaniak points out, you could argue the more brutal tyrants and dictators wouldn't need to set any up since they'd just murder anyone they disagreed with.
Perhaps Oll wouldn't see the Emperor as worse than Horus, but maybe he sees them as equivalent. Both are responsible for the slaughter of trillions, both are seeking to rule over humanity and neither seem interested in entertaining dissenting opinion. Ultimately, if the end result is death and destruction of the sort both of these people are capable of, is it that unlikely someone might look upon the two and decide neither are worthy rulers?
The Forgeworld are at least as relevant as the HH novels as far as the background is concerned, so I'm not sure what the point is of mentioning them in the way you do. Additionally, given that the Emperor is, well, the Emperor of Mankind, he's responsible for all the Exterminatus carried out by his forces during the Crusade. He's certainly sanctioned it on more than one occasion himself, but that's not relevant anyway since he's the man in charge of the whole Crusade. Everything that happens during it is on him.
agurus1 wrote: Just because chaos is worse than the emperor doesn’t mean that a person might not be justly horrified at the idea of the Emperor being the immortal figurehead of humanity for the foreseeable future, especially after the brutal and sometimes genocidal conquests of the Great Crusade.
Not to the point of being such a moron that you'd kill the Emperor and remove the only thing serving as effective protection against the forces of Chaos.
There are some people who would rather live free, however briefly, than under unjust or tyrannical rule. Oll Perrson (in the context of this specific fan theory that might not even be true) might just feel that whatever time humanity has left might be better served being able to make decisions for itself.
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Setting up concentration camps is not a requirement to be viewed as a tyrant. As Insaniak points out, you could argue the more brutal tyrants and dictators wouldn't need to set any up since they'd just murder anyone they disagreed with.
Perhaps Oll wouldn't see the Emperor as worse than Horus, but maybe he sees them as equivalent. Both are responsible for the slaughter of trillions, both are seeking to rule over humanity and neither seem interested in entertaining dissenting opinion. Ultimately, if the end result is death and destruction of the sort both of these people are capable of, is it that unlikely someone might look upon the two and decide neither are worthy rulers?
The Forgeworld are at least as relevant as the HH novels as far as the background is concerned, so I'm not sure what the point is of mentioning them in the way you do. Additionally, given that the Emperor is, well, the Emperor of Mankind, he's responsible for all the Exterminatus carried out by his forces during the Crusade. He's certainly sanctioned it on more than one occasion himself, but that's not relevant anyway since he's the man in charge of the whole Crusade. Everything that happens during it is on him.
Its much closer billions, and only if you use the Forgeworld books, because that is where the examples of the Emperor destroying planets comes from, pretty much exclusively.
The Forgeworld books are also different from the HH books in a lot of what they do.
The Emperor should have done more to Angron than just give him a slap on the wrist for an atrocity, I'll give you that.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
Of course he didn't. You don't need concentration camps if you just kill all the aliens and everyone who doesn't accept your rule.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
The Emperor did chastise Angron, but to be fair, he only gave Angron a slap on the wrist for an atrocity.
But off topic.
This thread was created to be about what the Imperium knows about Old Earth. I have learned they know very few things about Old Earth.
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Voss wrote: And so what? Since no one except you is making that claim (and only in the link you posted, where ADB has to explicitly explain the difference between himself and a character in a novel), I'm completely at a loss as to who you're arguing with, what purpose it serves or why you need two threads on it.
Let alone wanting to toss out 9 pages of discussion in each thread and bringing it all the way back to the starting point, pretending none of it ever happened.
What are you saying? ADB outright said we can safely say the Emperor is NOT from the DAOT.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
Wasn't the reason why though because it would have cost too much time and manpower to bring the Laer to compliance. Later on in Fulgrim after his encounter with Eldrad, Fulgrim then goes on to destroy a number of Maiden Worlds, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. Each destruction bought about by an expedition force is done in the Emperors name.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
No, but another writer might say so. ADB has changed stories so he can put his own take on things, other writers might decide that the Emperor is as a result of DAOT tech. ADB's word is not the be all and end all of Heresy writing irrespective of how good ADB is as a writer.
Which is where you seem to take a lot of threads I have noticed and I have generally tried to stay away. You seem to post a snippet of information without much explanation as to what you want you want US to do with it if anything. If you are tying to show something rather than discuss it perhaps you should start an article blog on Dakka. If you do want a discussion and for the thread to not go off topic so much I would highly recommend that you have an idea what you would like to discuss rather than let the reader guess and ask us for our opinion on the point you are trying to make.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
Wasn't the reason why though because it would have cost too much time and manpower to bring the Laer to compliance. Later on in Fulgrim after his encounter with Eldrad, Fulgrim then goes on to destroy a number of Maiden Worlds, so I don't know what you are trying to say here. Each destruction bought about by an expedition force is done in the Emperors name.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
No, but another writer might say so. ADB has changed stories so he can put his own take on things, other writers might decide that the Emperor is as a result of DAOT tech. ADB's word is not the be all and end all of Heresy writing irrespective of how good ADB is as a writer.
Which is where you seem to take a lot of threads I have noticed and I have generally tried to stay away. You seem to post a snippet of information without much explanation as to what you want you want US to do with it if anything. If you are tying to show something rather than discuss it perhaps you should start an article blog on Dakka. If you do want a discussion and for the thread to not go off topic so much I would highly recommend that you have an idea what you would like to discuss rather than let the reader guess and ask us for our opinion on the point you are trying to make.
To be fair, a lot of my threads have people jumping to other topics and talking with somone other than me for pages.
No, but another writer might say so. ADB has changed stories so he can put his own take on things, other writers might decide that the Emperor is as a result of DAOT tech. ADB's word is not the be all and end all of Heresy writing irrespective of how good ADB is as a writer.
And that will more than probably never happen. And there is a problem with that if it did come up. How do you explain Perpetuals Oll Persson and Damon Prytanis? Perpetual Oll Persson talked to the Emperor outside of Nineveh in our past. They would have to find a way to patch that if they did make the Emperor DAOT tech (and BL will more than probably never do that).
The point is that the Council never intended to destroy the Laer, and thought about making them a protectorate (and Fulgrim had a reason for destroying them other than being alien).
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Setting up concentration camps is not a requirement to be viewed as a tyrant. As Insaniak points out, you could argue the more brutal tyrants and dictators wouldn't need to set any up since they'd just murder anyone they disagreed with.
Perhaps Oll wouldn't see the Emperor as worse than Horus, but maybe he sees them as equivalent. Both are responsible for the slaughter of trillions, both are seeking to rule over humanity and neither seem interested in entertaining dissenting opinion. Ultimately, if the end result is death and destruction of the sort both of these people are capable of, is it that unlikely someone might look upon the two and decide neither are worthy rulers?
The Forgeworld are at least as relevant as the HH novels as far as the background is concerned, so I'm not sure what the point is of mentioning them in the way you do. Additionally, given that the Emperor is, well, the Emperor of Mankind, he's responsible for all the Exterminatus carried out by his forces during the Crusade. He's certainly sanctioned it on more than one occasion himself, but that's not relevant anyway since he's the man in charge of the whole Crusade. Everything that happens during it is on him.
Its much closer billions, and only if you use the Forgeworld books, because that is where the examples of the Emperor destroying planets comes from, pretty much exclusively.
The Forgeworld books are also different from the HH books in a lot of what they do.
The Emperor should have done more to Angron than just give him a slap on the wrist for an atrocity, I'll give you that.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
Of course he didn't. You don't need concentration camps if you just kill all the aliens and everyone who doesn't accept your rule.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
The Emperor did chastise Angron, but to be fair, he only gave Angron a slap on the wrist for an atrocity.
But off topic.
This thread was created to be about what the Imperium knows about Old Earth. I have learned they know very few things about Old Earth.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote: And so what? Since no one except you is making that claim (and only in the link you posted, where ADB has to explicitly explain the difference between himself and a character in a novel), I'm completely at a loss as to who you're arguing with, what purpose it serves or why you need two threads on it.
Let alone wanting to toss out 9 pages of discussion in each thread and bringing it all the way back to the starting point, pretending none of it ever happened.
What are you saying? ADB outright said we can safely say the Emperor is NOT from the DAOT.
Again, why discount the Forgeworld books? Why give the HH novels primacy over them? I haven't read all of the FW or HH books but my recollection from the ones I have read is that they don't seem to contradict one another about the major points of the Crusade and Heresy. You can't ignore them just because you don't like the implications contained in them. I'll stand by my figure of trillions dead - the Horus Heresy estimate is 2.3 trillion dead (double that after the Scouring) and we can assume the Great Crusade, which lasted a lot longer than the Heresy, wasn't exactly an exercise in restraint as far as the death toll went. Are you trying o say the Emperor never destroyed any planets?
I made no mention of the Emperor's origins in the post you quoted either, so I have no idea why you bring that up again. You also seem really hung up on a single incident in a single book (the Laer in Fulgrim) without realising the outcome of that action was exactly the same as every other alien civilisation encountered during the Crusade - annihilation. Some minor philosophical debates about maybe keeping them alive don't matter so much when you look at the actual outcome. Also, we have many, many more instances of alien and human worlds being attacked without hesitation so one incident that hints at a different possible outcome hardly outweighs all of those confirmed instances.
phillv85 wrote: I’d say the emperor is more like Stalin or Hitler than those that are considered more noble such as Alexander.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
And while there are a few instances of the Emperor destroying planets, those are all from the Forgeworld books, (more or less every single example was from the Forgeworld books) and many were even take out of context as the Emperor chastised Angron for an atrocity (although the Emperor really only gave Angron a slap on the wrist). And the HH book Age of Darkness says that what Angron did horrified the other Primarchs and Legions (plus the other Legions clashed with Angron for what he did).
Alexander and Caeser were not all-good. They brutally conquered people and so on.
But we are getting off topic. The Emperor has always wanted to protect humanity. I really do not think Perpetual Oll Persson would see the Emperor as worse than Horus.
Setting up concentration camps is not a requirement to be viewed as a tyrant. As Insaniak points out, you could argue the more brutal tyrants and dictators wouldn't need to set any up since they'd just murder anyone they disagreed with.
Perhaps Oll wouldn't see the Emperor as worse than Horus, but maybe he sees them as equivalent. Both are responsible for the slaughter of trillions, both are seeking to rule over humanity and neither seem interested in entertaining dissenting opinion. Ultimately, if the end result is death and destruction of the sort both of these people are capable of, is it that unlikely someone might look upon the two and decide neither are worthy rulers?
The Forgeworld are at least as relevant as the HH novels as far as the background is concerned, so I'm not sure what the point is of mentioning them in the way you do. Additionally, given that the Emperor is, well, the Emperor of Mankind, he's responsible for all the Exterminatus carried out by his forces during the Crusade. He's certainly sanctioned it on more than one occasion himself, but that's not relevant anyway since he's the man in charge of the whole Crusade. Everything that happens during it is on him.
Its much closer billions, and only if you use the Forgeworld books, because that is where the examples of the Emperor destroying planets comes from, pretty much exclusively.
The Forgeworld books are also different from the HH books in a lot of what they do.
The Emperor should have done more to Angron than just give him a slap on the wrist for an atrocity, I'll give you that.
Surely you are not saying ADB is wrong about the Emperor not being DAOT tech? He wrote Master of Mankind. That is the book where Zu said he was from the DAOT.
The Emperor did not set up concentration camps, for one thing.
Of course he didn't. You don't need concentration camps if you just kill all the aliens and everyone who doesn't accept your rule.
The examples of the Emperor destroying planets come from the Forgeworld books. And page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra thought making the Laer a protectorate instead of conquering them (not wiping them out), and Fulgrim rejected because they held their beliefs to be comparable to humanity, not because they were aliens.
The Emperor did chastise Angron, but to be fair, he only gave Angron a slap on the wrist for an atrocity.
But off topic.
This thread was created to be about what the Imperium knows about Old Earth. I have learned they know very few things about Old Earth.
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Voss wrote: And so what? Since no one except you is making that claim (and only in the link you posted, where ADB has to explicitly explain the difference between himself and a character in a novel), I'm completely at a loss as to who you're arguing with, what purpose it serves or why you need two threads on it.
Let alone wanting to toss out 9 pages of discussion in each thread and bringing it all the way back to the starting point, pretending none of it ever happened.
What are you saying? ADB outright said we can safely say the Emperor is NOT from the DAOT.
Again, why discount the Forgeworld books? Why give the HH novels primacy over them? I haven't read all of the FW or HH books but my recollection from the ones I have read is that they don't seem to contradict one another about the major points of the Crusade and Heresy. You can't ignore them just because you don't like the implications contained in them. I'll stand by my figure of trillions dead - the Horus Heresy estimate is 2.3 trillion dead (double that after the Scouring) and we can assume the Great Crusade, which lasted a lot longer than the Heresy, wasn't exactly an exercise in restraint as far as the death toll went. Are you trying o say the Emperor never destroyed any planets?
I made no mention of the Emperor's origins in the post you quoted either, so I have no idea why you bring that up again. You also seem really hung up on a single incident in a single book (the Laer in Fulgrim) without realising the outcome of that action was exactly the same as every other alien civilisation encountered during the Crusade - annihilation. Some minor philosophical debates about maybe keeping them alive don't matter so much when you look at the actual outcome. Also, we have many, many more instances of alien and human worlds being attacked without hesitation so one incident that hints at a different possible outcome hardly outweighs all of those confirmed instances.
I was talking to someone else.
It was much closer to billions.
I am not discounting the Forgeworld books. I am saying most of the examples come from there.
There were hardly any friendly aliens during the Crusade. Horus in Horus Rising mused that the Interex is the first time he has come across friendly aliens, and other Legions like the Thousand Sons muse about this.
It's pretty clear by anyone who can read through the subtext that it was pretty much assumed that xenos = unfriendly. You cherry pick the what two times out of several thousand encounters the IOM even attempted to work out something other than genocide and both ended up with the aliens dead.
HoundsofDemos wrote: It's pretty clear by anyone who can read through the subtext that it was pretty much assumed that xenos = unfriendly. You cherry pick the what two times out of several thousand encounters the IOM even attempted to work out something other than genocide and both ended up with the aliens dead.
And you have plenty of xenos that almost destroyed the Imperium. The Forgeworld books (which has been quoted from) say Rangdan could have destroyed the Imperium.
And the Imperium never intended to destroy the Laer before Fulgrim butted in (who has a reason for destroying them, and it was not because they were alien)
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HoundsofDemos wrote: It's pretty clear by anyone who can read through the subtext that it was pretty much assumed that xenos = unfriendly. You cherry pick the what two times out of several thousand encounters the IOM even attempted to work out something other than genocide and both ended up with the aliens dead.
And the Emperor never sought to rule over humanity. Malcador said that the Emperor never wanted to rule, but that he thought humanity would never be independent of him.
Again, why discount the Forgeworld books? Why give the HH novels primacy over them? I haven't read all of the FW or HH books but my recollection from the ones I have read is that they don't seem to contradict one another about the major points of the Crusade and Heresy. You can't ignore them just because you don't like the implications contained in them. I'll stand by my figure of trillions dead - the Horus Heresy estimate is 2.3 trillion dead (double that after the Scouring) and we can assume the Great Crusade, which lasted a lot longer than the Heresy, wasn't exactly an exercise in restraint as far as the death toll went. Are you trying o say the Emperor never destroyed any planets?
I made no mention of the Emperor's origins in the post you quoted either, so I have no idea why you bring that up again. You also seem really hung up on a single incident in a single book (the Laer in Fulgrim) without realising the outcome of that action was exactly the same as every other alien civilisation encountered during the Crusade - annihilation. Some minor philosophical debates about maybe keeping them alive don't matter so much when you look at the actual outcome. Also, we have many, many more instances of alien and human worlds being attacked without hesitation so one incident that hints at a different possible outcome hardly outweighs all of those confirmed instances.
I was talking to someone else.
Yet you made the reply to me. See how that's confusing?
It was much closer to billions.
No it wasn't. Trillions is the accepted figure for the Horus Heresy. If you think the 200-year crusade that involved genocide on a system-wide scale only killed billions you're deluded.
I am not discounting the Forgeworld books. I am saying most of the examples come from there.
If you're not discounting them then you accept them as sources of information? So why does it matter where the info comes from?
There were hardly any friendly aliens during the Crusade. Horus in Horus Rising mused that the Interex is the first time he has come across friendly aliens, and other Legions like the Thousand Sons muse about this.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The implications of the Imperial Truth are pretty clear and the reality of the Imperium's contact with aliens is demonstrated more than once in the HH novels. Aliens are seen as things to be exterminated, no matter how enlightened or peaceful they may be. Your attempts to justify such genocide are exactly the sort of excuses tyrants and dictators make when confronted with a group they'd rather not deal with - declare them hostile/evil/dangerous and kill them on sight. The existence of genuinely hostile aliens in the galaxy doesn't justify the extermination of all aliens.
Again, why discount the Forgeworld books? Why give the HH novels primacy over them? I haven't read all of the FW or HH books but my recollection from the ones I have read is that they don't seem to contradict one another about the major points of the Crusade and Heresy. You can't ignore them just because you don't like the implications contained in them. I'll stand by my figure of trillions dead - the Horus Heresy estimate is 2.3 trillion dead (double that after the Scouring) and we can assume the Great Crusade, which lasted a lot longer than the Heresy, wasn't exactly an exercise in restraint as far as the death toll went. Are you trying o say the Emperor never destroyed any planets?
I made no mention of the Emperor's origins in the post you quoted either, so I have no idea why you bring that up again. You also seem really hung up on a single incident in a single book (the Laer in Fulgrim) without realising the outcome of that action was exactly the same as every other alien civilisation encountered during the Crusade - annihilation. Some minor philosophical debates about maybe keeping them alive don't matter so much when you look at the actual outcome. Also, we have many, many more instances of alien and human worlds being attacked without hesitation so one incident that hints at a different possible outcome hardly outweighs all of those confirmed instances.
I was talking to someone else.
Yet you made the reply to me. See how that's confusing?
It was much closer to billions.
No it wasn't. Trillions is the accepted figure for the Horus Heresy. If you think the 200-year crusade that involved genocide on a system-wide scale only killed billions you're deluded.
I am not discounting the Forgeworld books. I am saying most of the examples come from there.
If you're not discounting them then you accept them as sources of information? So why does it matter where the info comes from?
There were hardly any friendly aliens during the Crusade. Horus in Horus Rising mused that the Interex is the first time he has come across friendly aliens, and other Legions like the Thousand Sons muse about this.
When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. The implications of the Imperial Truth are pretty clear and the reality of the Imperium's contact with aliens is demonstrated more than once in the HH novels. Aliens are seen as things to be exterminated, no matter how enlightened or peaceful they may be. Your attempts to justify such genocide are exactly the sort of excuses tyrants and dictators make when confronted with a group they'd rather not deal with - declare them hostile/evil/dangerous and kill them on sight. The existence of genuinely hostile aliens in the galaxy doesn't justify the extermination of all aliens.
The vast majority of aliens in 40k ARE hostile. I just quoted the Nephilim, who were a minor xenos species.
And the Emperor, not as those tyrants, had a legit excuse. All of the horrific aliens and supernatural stuff in 40k is real. This is Warhammer 40,000 - not goddamned Star Trek.
How do you know trillions is the accepted figure? Do you have proof?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And for your information, its an irrefutable fact the Emperor wants to save humanity. He wants humanity to psychically evolve and surpass the Pre-fall Eldar in its psychic potential. This has always been the case since the lore of 1st Edition Rogue Trader.
Form an interstellar empire based on conquest and unprovoked aggression for ten thousand years and of course everything you encounter is gonna be hostile when you show up.
You don't get to be surprised that people are angry at you when you go around lighting their houses on fire.
And the Emperor, not as those tyrants, had a legit excuse. All of the horrific aliens and supernatural stuff in 40k is real. This is Warhammer 40,000 - not goddamned Star Trek.
Here's the part that you're unable or unwilling to wrap your head around: IT. DOESN'T. MATTER.
Sterling191 wrote: Form an interstellar empire based on conquest and unprovoked aggression for ten thousand years and of course everything you encounter is gonna be hostile when you show up.
You don't get to be surprised that people are angry at you when you go around lighting their houses on fire.
And the Emperor, not as those tyrants, had a legit excuse. All of the horrific aliens and supernatural stuff in 40k is real. This is Warhammer 40,000 - not goddamned Star Trek.
Here's the part that you're unable or unwilling to wrap your head around: IT. DOESN'T. MATTER.
Genocide is genocide.
No matter that it is legit justified? Alright. It does not matter.
I know that it doesn't matter. The point is that the Imperium has its reasons.
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Sterling191 wrote: Form an interstellar empire based on conquest and unprovoked aggression for ten thousand years and of course everything you encounter is gonna be hostile when you show up.
You don't get to be surprised that people are angry at you when you go around lighting their houses on fire.
And the Emperor, not as those tyrants, had a legit excuse. All of the horrific aliens and supernatural stuff in 40k is real. This is Warhammer 40,000 - not goddamned Star Trek.
Here's the part that you're unable or unwilling to wrap your head around: IT. DOESN'T. MATTER.
Genocide is genocide.
And did you just ignore my link to the Nephilim? They were a minor xenos race. And the Forgeworld books say that the Rangdan came close to destroying the Imperium.
They were a crap load of aliens during the Crusade that were, irrefutably, without any doubt, hostile, and capable of destroying the Imperium.
Sterling191 wrote: Form an interstellar empire based on conquest and unprovoked aggression for ten thousand years and of course everything you encounter is gonna be hostile when you show up.
You don't get to be surprised that people are angry at you when you go around lighting their houses on fire.
Almost like his threads are a microcosm of this...
I know that it doesn't matter. The point is that the Imperium has its reasons.
So did Hitler. And Stalin. And Mao. And Hirohito. And Caesar. And Jackson. And every other murderous donkey-cave who built their power with the barrel of a gun.
Stop being a fascist apologist for two seconds and you might understand why trying to justify the, even fictional, systematic extermination of a species for no other reason than it exists is an act of pure irredeemable evil.
I know that it doesn't matter. The point is that the Imperium has its reasons.
So did Hitler. And Stalin. And Mao. And Hirohito. And Caesar. And Jackson. And every other murderous donkey-cave who built their power with the barrel of a gun.
Stop being a fascist apologist for two seconds and you might understand why trying to justify the, even fictional, systematic extermination of a species for no other reason than it exists is an act of pure irredeemable evil.
I hope you are not implying there were no hostile aliens during the Crusade. There were plenty. Some came very close to destroying the Imperium.
And the Imperium has encountered dangerous aliens, not like Hitler, Stalin, and so on.
By the way, Hitler clearly believed in Aryan supremacy. Why would he not? Its a fact. Racism and genocide existed before him.
This is not Star Trek or real life. This is Warhammer 40k. The Imperium has justified reasons for being the way it is.
Did you know that many aliens betrayed humanity during the Age of Strife? There were even alien slavers in Sol system on the moons of Saturn and Jupiter.
What Caeser did was NOT genocide. That was ancient warfare. He said he "killed a million and conquered a million more" when talking about the enemy peoples of Rome. That's not genocide. That was ancient warfare.
30,000 years ago, there were no (modern, at least) humans in America, and it was before the last ice sheets covered Europe. Two or three people actually lived through all the millennia between now and the future, but other than that, having any records is miraculous.
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But...in the DAOT he was killed and turned into a piece of tech that adopted all of his powers and memories. Maybe that is why chaos had a hard time with him because he was a machine without a soul?
